BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:02 AM

Some people don't seem to have talked to lawyers as much as I have. There is a rather large difference between discussed and settled. Everything has to settled at the same time - ie a legally binding agrement entwred into - but that says nothing about when they need to be discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:21 AM

Quite right, DMcG. And let me quote a relevant section of those guidelines for negotiation:

II. A phased approach to negotiations

4. On the date of withdrawal, the Treaties will cease to apply to the United Kingdom, to those of its overseas countries and territories currently associated to the Union, and to territories for whose external relations the United Kingdom is responsible. The main purpose of the negotiations will be to ensure the United Kingdom's orderly withdrawal so as to reduce uncertainty and, to the extent possible, minimise disruption caused by this abrupt change.

To that effect, the first phase of negotiations will aim to:

provide as much clarity and legal certainty as possible to citizens, businesses, stakeholders and international partners on the immediate effects of the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the Union;
settle the disentanglement of the United Kingdom from the Union and from all the rights and obligations the United Kingdom derives from commitments undertaken as Member State.
The European Council will monitor progress closely and determine when sufficient progress has been achieved to allow negotiations to proceed to the next phase.

There has been no breach.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:28 AM

from all the rights and obligations the United Kingdom derives from commitments undertaken as Member State.

That clearly includes trade. We currently have the right to free trade and we would like to keep it. We would even be prepared to pay for that right, but we have to know exactly what we would be paying for before we could agree the price for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:56 AM

Yes but you see, Keith, that little extract also includes mention of our commitments and obligations as a member state. With you it's all about our "rights." You really can't get this little Englander guff out of your head, can you? The plain fact is that an amicable financial settlement now will oil the cogs of trade negotiations. We will end up with a better deal. That's the real world. In your world we get nowhere, as we are seeing. It doesn't matter how much visceral hatred you have of the EU. Put that to the fore and we get a bad deal. Well done. We are a little country causing trouble for a huge trading block. Once May, Davis and co. get that into their skulls instead of living in fear of being seen to be weak in the eyes of their own backwoodsmen (sorry again, John), we can start working in the interests of the country instead of the interests of your Tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:12 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 04:59 PM
Our membership of the EU has transformed us from being the perennial sick man of Europe into the fifth strongest economy in the world.

We were possibly considered the 'sick man of Europe' for a short time. Certainly not during WWII when we were perhaps the last bastion of freedom in Europe.

Perhaps you need to check your understanding of 'perennial'.

Also, it is pure speculation to put our transformation from 'sick man' to 'strong economy' down to our membership of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM

"Certainly not during WWII when we were perhaps the last bastion of freedom in Europe."

Perhaps you need to check your understanding of the post-war events that led to the founding of the European Union and the reasons why a united Europe is a progressive idea that has eschewed by a smidgeon over half the voters of this country that forgot what our families fought and suffered for.

Britannia doesn't rule the waves any more, thank fuck. Brexiteers would be happy to be Xi Jinping's arsewipe rather than be part of something their limited imaginations (as per all the right wing) simply cannot understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM

Only thing is Shaw - the UK negotiators have been ready, willing and able to discuss all aspects of us leaving the EU from day one. The EU negotiators have not. It has been on their insistence that the UK MUST agree to terms dictated by them on what payment we MUST make, a payment I might add that they have refused to justify. We MUST agree to terms dictated by them with regard to rights of EU citizens residing in the UK. We MUST agree that the ECJ has precedence over our own sovereign parliament and the UK Courts of Justice. We MUST agree to conditions as yet to be determined by THEM on the nature of the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

The above Shaw (And DMcG who talks to lawyers) is not a negotiation by any stretch of the imagination.

We are willing to discuss, they seem only interested in dictating to us. On that tack they will not get very far, they don't deserve to. For some strange reason they seem to think that they can pressure the UK into a deal that would be to the benefit of the EU but unacceptable to the British people and against the UK national interests, they should think again. Come the 29th March, 2019 the UK will leave the EU and if no deal has been discussed, mutually agreed and settled both in Brussels and in Westminster then there never will be a deal and the EU will be compelled to trade with the UK in accordance with WTO rules. If it does not do this then every member state within the EU may find itself outside of the WTO.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:43 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:21 AM

Quite right, DMcG. And let me quote a relevant section of those guidelines for negotiation:
To that effect, the first phase of negotiations will aim to:
provide as much clarity and legal certainty as possible to citizens, businesses, stakeholders and international partners on the immediate effects of the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the Union;
There has been no breach.
Except that so far the EU have only been willing to deal with the future of EU population in the UK, but not of UK population resident in EU.

And yes, I've just commented on two of your poorly considered comments. Call me a 'stalker' if you wish. I realise it is just one of your defence mechanisms to avoid having to respond when your errors are pointed out to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:04 AM

"but unacceptable to the British people"

....SOME of the British people...


"If it does not do this then every member state within the EU may find itself outside of the WTO."

Another bizarre transmission from the alternate economic reality Brexiteers inhabit. This will never happen for reasons that really don't need any explanation, unless of course reality really is getting away from the bitter, delusional old men of The Dishonourable Order of the White Knights of Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:20 AM

Save yourself for your awful Sherlock jokes, Nigel.

Laying down a hard line at the start off negotiations is not "dictating" anything. It's your way of ensuring a good final outcome for yourself. The EU will not anywhere near completely achieve the things you say they are "dictating." Dictators tend to get the lot. Way back in the good times when unions were allowed to do their job of negotiating pay for their members, we would ask for twelve per cent, threaten all sorts, get round the table, end up with four per cent and everyone went away, not deliriously happy maybe, but clutching a settlement until next time. That's how it works. We call it "negotiation." We don't pay negotiators to give in and fold up at the first hurdle. The EU is following its guidelines, as I've shown. They've taken a hard line, true. They have to. But so are we taking a hard line. We want them to breach their guidelines and put everything on the table at once. That would be extremely foolish. We offered next to nothing in the overall scheme of things and it took us months even to do that. The EU wants to show that no-one should contemplate leaving lightly. Pour encourager les autres. To show that you don't get decades of benefits then blithely walk out leaving the rest in deep doodah. By so doing they are acting in the interests of the EU. Our negotiators are living in mortal fear of being seen to be weak by Tory hawks and the Farrago set. It's paralysing them. They are acting in the interests of their party, not of this country. In so doing they are holding things up and they are going to get a worse deal. The EU bigwigs are actually being quite nice to us in public. They can see that leaving the path open is in everyone's interests. In private they must be scratching their heads wondering how this country can have sent such a shower of incompetents to "negotiate."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:37 AM

You obviously were not on the negotiating team then Shaw - Trades Union activist is how you once described yourself wasn't it?

There will be no next time, this is a one time only negotiation and the resulting agreement is permanently binding. In labour disputes between union and employer there normally has to be an agreement. In the Brexit process that is not the case, the process according to EU rules is time limited the deadline is before 29th March, 2019 - if the EU negotiators want to play silly beggars it is entirely up to them. Although I think that over the next eight weeks the Council of Ministers will tell Barnier & Co., to get a move on - a no deal solution hurts members states individually to varying degrees, it does not harm, or affect the EU Commission one iota, their unelected snouts will remain steadfastly in the trough. It will not be the likes of Junckers and Barnier to explain to those working on the VW and BMW production lines why 20% of their production is no longer required. But I dare say the CEOs of both concerns will have a word in Merkel's ear.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM

"But I dare say the CEOs of both concerns will have a word in Merkel's ear."

Why shouldn't they? Business is business after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:00 AM

Laying down a hard line at the start off negotiations is not "dictating" anything. It's your way of ensuring a good final outcome for yourself. The EU will not anywhere near completely achieve the things you say they are "dictating." Dictators tend to get the lot. Way back in the good times when unions were allowed to do their job of negotiating pay for their members, we would ask for twelve per cent, threaten all sorts, get round the table, end up with four per cent and everyone went away, not deliriously happy maybe, but clutching a settlement until next time. That's how it works. We call it "negotiation." We don't pay negotiators to give in and fold up at the first hurdle. The EU is following its guidelines, as I've shown. They've taken a hard line, true. They have to. But so are we taking a hard line. We want them to breach their guidelines and put everything on the table at once. That would be extremely foolish. We offered next to nothing in the overall scheme of things and it took us months even to do that. The EU wants to show that no-one should contemplate leaving lightly. Pour encourager les autres. To show that you don't get decades of benefits then blithely walk out leaving the rest in deep doodah. By so doing they are acting in the interests of the EU. Our negotiators are living in mortal fear of being seen to be weak by Tory hawks and the Farrago set. It's paralysing them. They are acting in the interests of their party, not of this country. In so doing they are holding things up and they are going to get a worse deal. The EU bigwigs are actually being quite nice to us in public. They can see that leaving the path open is in everyone's interests. In private they must be scratching their heads wondering how this country can have sent such a shower of incompetents to "negotiate."
So, setting strict targets at the outset is good negotiating practice if done by the EU, but folding to outside pressure if done by UK.
That seems to show that your support is for the EU rather than the UK.

To show that you don't get decades of benefits then blithely walk out leaving the rest in deep doodah.
More a case of having been a net contributor for decades. If we'd been a net recipient of the bounties of the EU we would probably want to stay in, and the EU would probably be more prepared to let us go.
They don't want us to stay in because they love the British. It's our contributions they want, hence the extortionate divorce bill which they are trying to push through.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:45 AM

You're not listening, Nigel. I said that we are also taking a hard line. Unfortunately, the motivation for compromise on our side is not there because the Tory "negotiators" are watching their backs as the Tory hawks circle around. And you don't know what their divorce demand is or how flexible they are prepared to be because all that lies in the realms of rumour until the UK shows that it's being serious.

As for this:

Me: "To show that you don't get decades of benefits then blithely walk out leaving the rest in deep doodah."

You: "More a case of having been a net contributor for decades."

My remark related to the EU's attitude to other potential leavers, not us. Perhaps my French phrase eluded you. It means, in that rather sinister wartime way, to make THE OTHERS (les autres) think ten times before they even consider leaving. You may think that my English is as bad as I think your Sherlock jokes are, but on this occasion I commend a rereading of my post. You could try taking off your irrational anti-Steve specs first, but who am I to dictate...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM

Steve, we all want a good deal.
Free access to their market is worth money to us.
Free access to our market is worth money to them. More, because they sell more to us than we sell to them.

The only thing discussed so far is how much we should pay.
Agreement has yet to be reached.

You assume we have not offered enough. Why do you assume that?

I assume that they will ask for more than is reasonable as a starting point for negotiation.
You assume their starting figure should be accepted. Why?

If they think we will accept anything rather than walk, they will never offer a fair deal.

If the best they offer is worth less than resorting to WTO trading, why would we not choose WTO?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:51 PM

Well that's right, Keith. You have outlined what hard-nosed negotiating is all about. The only thing is that the assumptions you claim I've made I haven't made at all. Whatever they are currently asking for is not known. In any case, there's more to it than a cash sum in one big cheque. It's rumoured that May may have offered more than the twenty billion. Who knows? These things are being thrashed out in secret. There will be leaks, of course. But, you see, the EU is acting in the interests of the EU. That's what they're paid to do. I don't like many aspects of it. I don't like the idea that the interests of individual states are placed secondary to the interests of gigantism. I don't like the idea that, say, Catalonia should be inhibited from seeking self-determination by the threat of being expelled from the EU. My view is that both Scotland and Catalonia should be free to vote for independence and stay in the EU. The EU wants them in and they both want in. It's pig-headed of the EU to oppose the fracturing of nations if that fracturing would be in the best interests of Scotland and Catalonia. If I lived in either country I'd want to vote for independence, but maybe I'd think twice if the threat of blackmail from the EU/Spain/the rest of the UK seemed to outweigh those best interests. But in these negotiations, the Tory party is acting in the interests of the Tory party, not of the country. That's what's holding things up. Shame you can't see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 01:17 PM

It takes a worried man to sing a worried song............

.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-juncker-talks-fail-no-deal-european-parliament-eu-president-weber-theresa-may-leave-l

But Manfred Weber, the leader of the European Parliament?s largest political group, the centre-right European People?s Party seems to have a different hymn sheet and has his own aria.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 01:52 PM

So Steve, what complaint do you have against the negotiators? What is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 02:07 PM

The Tory party aren't even acting in the interests of the Tory party, Steve. Just a small number of extremely wealthy Tory MPs and party supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 02:13 PM

Why do you say that Backwoodsman.
What are they doing wrong in the negotiation, and how do you know?

Steve said, "Whatever they are currently asking for is not known."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 03:13 PM

Read my earlier posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 03:36 PM

My complaints against the so-called negotiators are that they do not put the interests of their country first. That they are seen as incredibly weak because Theresa May is operating without an overall Tory majority and has guns pointing to her head. No wonder the EU wants to keep her afloat. They can't lose. That they still appear to hold dear some illusion that the UK is a major world power that can call the shots. That they are grooming us into thinking that no deal would be some sort of good thing. That David Davis completely lacks credibility. Apart from that, Keith, I have no complaints.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:44 PM

My complaints against the so-called negotiators are that they do not put the interests of their country first.

In what way are they not putting the interests of their country first? As far as you are concerned the only way any British negotiator will do that is to fly over to Brussels and say loudly to anyone that will listen, "Sorry chaps we've made one hell of a mistake, but we were only being "whimsical", we really didn't mean it, can we come back into the fold please and we will forget the whole thing." Well sorry Shaw that is simply not going to happen, we have triggered Article 50 (Parliament voted for that - not just the Conservative Party) and on the 29th March 2019 we will all wake up and we will be out of the EU. The British negotiators are in Brussels to get the best deal for the UK and if that happens to be a "No Deal" due to the intransigence of the EU negotiators then that is what will happen. Whatever deal is proposed must be put before Parliament and Parliament has to agree to it (So if it IS "No Deal" then it will have been Parliament that makes it so)

That they are seen as incredibly weak because Theresa May is operating without an overall Tory majority and has guns pointing to her head. No wonder the EU wants to keep her afloat. They can't lose."

Total irrelevance to the Brexit negotiations.

That they still appear to hold dear some illusion that the UK is a major world power that can call the shots. That they are grooming us into thinking that no deal would be some sort of good thing."

There is no illusion about the UK being the fifth largest economy in the world Shaw.

There is no illusion about the UK being the second largest net-contributor to the EU's coffers.

There is no illusion about the UK being one of the EU's best internal customers

There is no illusion about the UK being 13% of the EU's population.

Oh and "No Deal" is most certainly a thousand times more preferable to a bad deal that is not in the interests of the UK.

That David Davis completely lacks credibility.

Who with? YOU?? In what way does he lack credibility?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:02 PM

"That they are seen as incredibly weak because Theresa May is operating without an overall Tory majority and has guns pointing to her head. No wonder the EU wants to keep her afloat. They can't lose."

You replied "Total irrelevance to the Brexit negotiations"

Really !?

With the likes of Boris Johnson, Liam Fox and Michael Gove in her cabinet all seeking her position.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:59 PM

The whole point of her misguidedly calling the election was to get a big enough majority to see off her hawks in order to give her a clear run through brexit (more Tory party self-interest there of course). It went entirely the opposite way. Her agenda is being driven by hardline brexiteer little Englanders in her own party such as Bernard Jenkin and John Redwood who are irresponsibly promoting the idea of no deal. Under those circumstances she can't possibly put the interests of the country first. She is negotiating with two hands tied behind her back (which she has to watch at all times) and she has shown herself to be vacuous, wobbly, vacillating and visionless. Total irrelevance my arse.

"...we have triggered Article 50 (Parliament voted for that - not just the Conservative Party) and on the 29th March 2019 we will all wake up and we will be out of the EU."

You say this approximately once every day you post about brexit. Are you losing confidence? Is your nerve failing? Why do you have to keep convincing yourself? Is it finally dawning on you that this a total nightmare? If you can't see it now you soon will, and you can quote me on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:37 AM

Simple raggy, it is irrelevant because in itself it has no bearing on Brexit negotiations. The EU in Brussels are dealing with the British Government period and at the moment that is a Conservative Government led by Theresa May.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:41 AM

"a clear run through brexit" - IS in the best interests of the country.

".....on the 29th March 2019 we will all wake up and we will be out of the EU."

You say this approximately once every day you post about brexit. Are you losing confidence? Is your nerve failing? Why do you have to keep convincing yourself?"

I keep mentioning it Shaw as it would appear that some on this forum are too thick to realise it and accept it as being fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:56 AM

Maggie-May stated herself, in the run-up to the GE, that Its purpose was to achieve a large majority in order to 'strengthen her hand in the forthcoming Brexit negotiations, to ensure the best possible deal for the nation'. (I paraphrase there, but it's an accurate representation of the gist of her utterances).

So how can the fact that she failed to achieve that 'large majority' and, in fact, failed to achieve a majority at all be a "total irrelevance to the BrexShit negotiations"?

That would infer that her pre-GE claim was a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:10 AM

Perhaps your failure to comprehend why it is an irrelevance stems from your inability apparently to separate domestic and international affairs, politics and policy. But for your benefit Backwards here is a brief summary of what has happened:

Pre-election the EU was ("supposed to be") negotiating the UK's departure from the EU with the British Government ( For Shaw's benefit - That will occur on the 29th March 2019), that British Government was a Conservative Government led by Theresa May.

Post- election the EU finds itself ("supposedly") negotiating the UK's departure from the EU with the British Government ( For Shaw's benefit - That will occur on the 29th March 2019), that British Government is a Conservative Government led by Theresa May.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:17 AM

Meanwhile... a pile of Brexit reports remain unpublished by the tories. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:48 AM

Tell me Stu how many Brexit reports have been published by the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:51 AM

I do not think you believe your post of 25 Oct 17 - 03:10 AM, Teribus. While nothing in it is false you are perfectly well aware that it leaves out many important factors. I do not believe you think it has no influence on the negotiators what instructions, guidance and support they receive from home.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM

So, my Barrack-Room-Lawyer-ex-Squaddie friend, was she lying? Answer 'Yes', or provide an explanation of why she wasn't lying please.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:04 AM

Pray tell DMcG (The man who talks to lawyers) who is and who has been giving our negotiators - "instructions, guidance and support" - up to now:

The media? The opposition? the people? The Trades Unions? The CBI? Or has it been the Government?

Personally, without speaking to a lawyer, I believe that to-date it has been the Government - And that Government since the process has been in train has been a Conservative Government led by Theresa May.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM

Now just so that it is straight in my mind Backwards:

1: I state MY OPINION that the recent general election result is irrelevant to the Brexit negotiating process because to anyone dealing internationally with the UK nothing has changed - to make it simpler for you to understand - they were dealing with a Conservative Government before the election, they are still dealing with a Conservative Government after the election.

2: You paraphrase what Theresa May stated was her reasons for calling the recent General Election, which all sounded fairly reasonable and logical for a politician to do.

Now YOU want to know if she lied based on what MY OPINION IS!!!!

To quote John McEnroe - "YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS???"

Of course she is not guilty of lying you Prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:20 AM

You do like the partial truth approach, don't you, Teribus? Yes, it was and is the Government. But the government is weaker which is precisely what Mrs May wanted to avoid on the election.

My remark about lawyers really seems to have stirred something as well. But it is point worth repeating. Lawyers write in a very formalised way. It is not ordinary English because terms have precise meanings. So you cannot just treat a word like "settled" as if were an ordinary English conversation. You need to look at how that is used in law.

I have made my points on this little subsection. I will post again here, as like as not, but not taking this post further.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:30 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:51 PM
But in these negotiations, the Tory party is acting in the interests of the Tory party, not of the country.
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:59 PM
The whole point of her misguidedly calling the election was to get a big enough majority to see off her hawks in order to give her a clear run through brexit (more Tory party self-interest there of course).

The Tory party (much as you may dislike them) are acting in the interests of the UK. They are also acting to keep themselves in power, not only for their self-interest, but also because they do not believe it would be in the interests of this country to risk putting Jeremy Corbyn in charge of the negotiations.
In this the interests of the Tory Party & the UK run in parallel. (in my view)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:22 AM

Hi Nigel

<" they do not believe it would be in the interests of this country to risk putting Jeremy Corbyn in charge of the negotiations.
In this the interests of the Tory Party & the UK run in parallel. (in my view) ">

I agree entirely -


Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:36 AM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:56 AM
Maggie-May stated herself, in the run-up to the GE, that Its purpose was to achieve a large majority in order to 'strengthen her hand in the forthcoming Brexit negotiations, to ensure the best possible deal for the nation'. (I paraphrase there, but it's an accurate representation of the gist of her utterances).

So how can the fact that she failed to achieve that 'large majority' and, in fact, failed to achieve a majority at all be a "total irrelevance to the BrexShit negotiations"?

The idea of using 'quotations', whether using quote marks, or italic print (or both), is to quote the words actually used by another person.
Swapping Brex-shit for Brexit means that you are not actually quoting anyone.

Once you change even one word of a quote, it is no longer a quote, and people will start looking to see what other changes you may have made to 'quotes' in order to further your own argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:45 AM

"Tell me Stu how many Brexit reports have been published by the EU?"

Erm, I was talking about the ones our government has commissioned but refused to publish. I'm not interested in the EU ones, I want to see those. So much for taking back control, all in it together etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:50 AM

From: Stu - PM
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:45 AM
"Tell me Stu how many Brexit reports have been published by the EU?"
Erm, I was talking about the ones our government has commissioned but refused to publish. I'm not interested in the EU ones, I want to see those. So much for taking back control, all in it together etc etc

I think the point that was being made was that showing ones hand to the public also makes it available to the people you are negotiating with.
UK reports are thus being withheld in the same way that EU ones are (if any such exist) hence the question "How many Brexit reports have been published by the EU?"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:59 AM

Sadly Nigel the 50 reports into various industries commissioned by David Davis are not only withheld from the general public they are being withheld from members of the House of Commons, the very people elected to run the country on our behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:13 AM

"Backward" "too thick" "you prat" "Shaw".... the "problem poster" is back on form again this morning, I see. And I see you've made your worried proclamation about the date of brexit twice already today, Teribus, and it isn't even lunchtime yet! 😂

Just to be slightly more accurate, Teribus, the country is governed by a Conservative party under Theresa May without an overall majority that is being propped up by a despicable bunch of sectarian terrorist-apologist backwoodsmen (sorry yet again, John - maybe I'll stick to "troglodytes" in future, though it doesn't have the same cachet somehow). Not only does she have to keep them sweet, she knows that any rebellion by her backbenchers, always a background rumble in a seriously divided party, would very likely end up putting Labour in power. Keeping that shower happy is her top priority. As such, the false no-deal hubris on display from the clown Davis and the hatchetmen Jenkins, Redwood et al. is what is obstructing the possibility of progress in negotiations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:47 AM

No problem, Steve - I originally changed my name from 'Strollin' Johnny' to 'Backwoodsman' as a piss-take in response to an insult thrown at a group of us by the late Diane Easby - like Pte. Parts, a contributor who had plenty to say, most of it interesting and considered but, sadly, ruined by a rude, aggressive, ignorant, loutish way of presenting it.

In my 70 years, I've been insulted by experts, and dealt with a very great deal of rudeness and aggression. It's all water off a duck's back AFAIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:58 AM

ROTFLMAO!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Nige and Pte. Parts should get together as a couple to compete on 'Strictly Come Dancing' - the way those two wriggle they'd be guaranteed to win.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:24 AM

"I think the point that was being made was that showing ones hand to the public also makes it available to the people you are negotiating with."

I understand all that, but it's not that simple. The uncertainty caused for businesses not knowing the negotiating position of the government (in PMQ's today MayBot said "yes we'll get a deal" whilst other ministers seem not to give a stuff about a deal) or the contents of govt commissioned reports is damaging; today Toyota are making their concerns heard for instance.

Big corporates are one thing and you might not give a shit about them, but when they ship the oars the effect is felt by the myriad of businesses that are contracted by such mega corporations, from large suppliers to self-employed contractors working on an hourly basis. This has real-world consequences for us and our families and so if the govt is sitting on information that will enable those of us who run business to make plans with our customers to cope, then we should at least get the chance to do that.

So much for "all in it together". We're right out of the feckin' loop down here where the actual work is done; not much control being taken back for those us struggling to navigate this clusterfuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:45 AM

"the government is weaker" in dealing internationally? How? In what way is it weaker? The Conservative Party can still command a majority in the House of Commons, even if that majority is only one, it is still a majority. The threat of a general election that would see many of the rebels deselected and the very real danger of seeing Jeremy Corbyn, Momentum and the Trades Unions running the country on a ticket returning us to the 1970s will be enough to ensure that Theresa May and the Conservatives stay in power until after Brexit and more than likely until the next General Election in 2022.

By the way DMcG the legal profession makes the money it does solely because "English" is one of the most imprecise languages on the planet, the opposite can be said of French, which is why for centuries the language of diplomacy was French.

Nice to read that Shaw now knows when the UK will cease to be a member of the EU. That means I no longer need to remind him.

Now then Backwards while you are - ROTFLMAO!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 - Any other idiotic connections that you'd like to make? As far as " rudeness and aggression" go, neither you, or Shaw, need to take lessons from anyone, but it is amusing to see how you react when you get your own thrown back at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM

ROTFLMAO again, Pte. Parts! Do please stop, my ribs are starting to ache! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM

"As far as " rudeness and aggression" go, neither you, or Shaw, need to take lessons from anyone, but it is amusing to see how you react when you get your own thrown back at you."

Oh, more delicious irony! This, coming from our resident 'Problem Poster'.
Don't play the victim - everyone knows you're a piece of work, and nobody's taken in by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM

So French lawyers earn a lot less than British ones? Facinating.