BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 06:46 PM

Well, the trouble with Project Fear, as many of us said at the time, was that they held very few cards. All the aces were held by leave, especially on immigration. The lowest common denominator and the pandering to the basest instincts of the populace were theirs for the taking, and they took them gleefully. The remain campaign was wrong-headed and, at times, despicable (the worst bits propagated by your erstwhile friend and fellow Tory-traveller George Osborne, Nigel, lest we forget. You must be embarrassed...) and a shambles. But the thing is that remain couldn't appeal to populist instincts whereas leave had that as the cynical best weapon in its armoury. No need to talk about balance, Nigel, except to say that both sides were as bad as each other and both helped to shed far more heat than light.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 06:41 PM

Hmmm............. still no comment about stockpiling Medical supplies and food ........

Good news anyone ???????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 05:21 PM

All I relied on from the Wikipedia article was the two polls. If you prefer to take the figures from his actual poll feel free. They are the same; they were just more convenient to copy from Wikipedia, but explore the original in detail at your leasure.

I am well aware of the limitations of Wikipedia as a source, never fear. But if the figures are right and I am not relying on the commentary, I will use it.

I remember a couple of lines from a novel: "You are quoting Snoopy the Dog, I believe." "I will quote the truth wherever I find it, thank you."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:49 PM

Here is a clip from Wikipedia
==================================
Sovereignty

On the day of the referendum Lord Ashcroft's polling team questioned 12,369 people who had completed voting.[6] This poll produced data that showed that 'Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the European Union was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”.

''

Immigration[edit]

Lord Ashcroft's election day poll of 12,369 voters also discovered that 'One third (33%) [of leave voters] said the main reason was that leaving "offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders."'[8]

Immediately prior to the referendum data from Ipsos-Mori showed that immigration/migration was the most cited issue when Britons were asked 'What do you see as the most/other important issue facing Britain today?' with 48% of respondents mentioning it when surveyed.[9]

==================================
Reading this from the bottom up: Immediately before the referendum 48% mentioned immigration as a major issue and in the analysis of the votes one third mentioned it as their main reason for voting as they did.   That is a very substantial figure, even if it the case that 49% gave sovereignty as the main reason. So the initial evidence would seem to suggest that the 33% could well have been the deciding factor.

It is also the case that there are social reasons people do not always give the honest answer when surveyed, so the figures could be closer than the 33-49% would suggest. There is no need to dwell on that though, since 33% is already substantial.

No attempt to link to the page, but it appears to be from Here

If it is, it represents a very one-sided view.
Immediately before the referendum 48% mentioned immigration as a major While that looks as if it might refer to the views of the leave voters, it doesn't actually say that, and was from a poll before the vote. So will never tell us what percentage of leave/remain voters thought immigration an important point prior to the referendum.

Elsewhere in the Wikipedia article it has a heading for: Lies and misinformation which mentions only the discussion of the "side of the bus", and 'leave' dealing in "post-truth politics".
In a balanced article the heading of "Lies and misleading information" would also have covered the 'facts' put forward by Project Fear about the immediate post-referendum Armageddon which was expected if we voted to leave (but which failed to appear). No surprise this is not mentioned.
As such it seems the Wikipedia article is not a lot of use taking the discussion here any further forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:39 PM

It really is a laugh a minute reading all this wild conjecture about what got a thread closed. The conspiracy theorists here haven't a clue as to what really happened and are making complete arses of themselves. It's also quite amusing to contemplate the off-topic ditherings of our Hertford compatriot, who, in different times, is very much given to bollocking all and sundry about going off-topic, especially if it's in one of his own sacred Israel threads or something or other. Get over yourselves, chaps. It's gone. Done and dusted. Rung down the curtain and gone to join the choir invisible. It's fallen off its perch (to which it wasn't properly nailed). It has ceased to be. Shuffled off its mortal coils. It's an ex-thread - and it's all your fault. Nothing to do with me or anybody else who you do charmingly and boringly call "usual suspects." This one 'ere is a brexit thread. Let's go with that idea, shall we? Adelante! Excelsior! We live in serious times, so try to be serious!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:30 PM

The term shows your contempt towards people with learning disability, and those who choose to put working towards the benefit of society above increasing wealth by climbing on the backs of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:55 PM

iain -as far as i know you are the only person on here to use the term lef...d. twice and including a definition of what you meant. i work with disabled adults and know very well to what you were referring. had i used a term like that at work i would quite rightly be disciplined. as a union rep i would not ever defend a member who had used it.

and your general insulting and patronising attitude?|it's shit.

mods?

mind you, i think it's horrible when footballers crowd the ref waving red cards

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:41 PM

Hello said the pot to the kettle!
People in glass houses.......
Mathew 7:5

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:21 PM

I wonder what the moderators views on calling people twats and leftards, using a person's age as an insult, talking down to people, insulting their intelligence and twisting the words of others are?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:56 PM

"No, it would seem that Greeks, and indeed Bulgarians, who have the nous and get up and go to seek opportunities elsewhere are also winners. "

There are 2 ways of looking at that. Is the driver ambition, or desperation. Greek unemployment being 25% and slashed budgets for social welfare would suggest the latter.
That is not the type of brain drain that Britain experienced in previous decades. Perhaps for the UK one could be unkind and say it was all about greed, not need.
A major distinction!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:31 PM

He knows it Pete, but he daren't admit it because it would show him up as, at the very least, an apologist for racists.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:23 PM

nigel perhaps you move in circles where people can rationalise away their reasons for voting brexit with spurious worries about expanding EU or vacuous 'sovereignty' Where i live in west cumbria everyone i talk to on the subject will talk about foreigners and usually 'muslims' They do not have the sophisticated, learned excuses of shy racists, or feel the need to disguise their views like pale,sick tories do.   

get real, the brexit vote was won as a result of racism peddled by newspapers, ukip and the tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:13 PM

@Iains:

"The Greek emigration wave for work abroad is still in progress and does not appear to be slowing down as unemployment remains at 25%.

Change in statutory minimum wages in real terms between 1 January 2010 and 1 January 2017
Greece -24.3%
Bulgaria +86%

and in their madness the EU expects all these disparate economies to work under a single currency. So far the sole winner is Germany."

No, it would seem that Greeks, and indeed Bulgarians, who have the nous and get up and go to seek opportunities elsewhere are also winners.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:13 PM

Steve,
. You could try asking the mods who got the discussion closed down instead of guessing wrongly and attempting to smear.

No need. They always close threads full of personal attack.
After my last post you and your pack gave up all pretence of discussion and just posted personal abuse.
It worked as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:54 PM

This was discussed last night ON NEWSNIGHT. Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:52 PM

This was discussed last night and it was pointed out that some medicine cannot be stockpiled. For example, there are radioisotopes used in some treatments and investigations with a half life of roughly 2 hours. That can't be stockpiled.

(When I was 40 or so I was investigated a potential lung issue - there was none. But the radiologist/lung specialist asked me is I had any questions about using one of these isotopes, presumably anticipating the need to settle fears. Instead I asked him how they compensated for the fact that with a half life of 2 hours it would have decayed significantly during the 1 hour investigation itself and how did they compensate for this effect? We had a really interesting chat.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:28 PM

Firstly Thanks Monique for posting the relevant link.

Secondly, Well, well, well. Almost a full day has past and not one of the leavers has mentioned the report that the UK Government is making plans to stockpile medical supplies and food.

I suppose even they realise this is not the good news that some of us have been looking for.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:11 PM

Well done, two Daves. Well contorted, Nigel. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:05 PM

Here is a clip from Wikipedia
==================================
Sovereignty

On the day of the referendum Lord Ashcroft's polling team questioned 12,369 people who had completed voting.[6] This poll produced data that showed that 'Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the European Union was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”.

'''

Immigration[edit]

Lord Ashcroft's election day poll of 12,369 voters also discovered that 'One third (33%) [of leave voters] said the main reason was that leaving "offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders."'[8]

Immediately prior to the referendum data from Ipsos-Mori showed that immigration/migration was the most cited issue when Britons were asked 'What do you see as the most/other important issue facing Britain today?' with 48% of respondents mentioning it when surveyed.[9]

==================================
Reading this from the bottom up: Immediately before the referendum 48% mentioned immigration as a major issue and in the analysis of the votes one third mentioned it as their main reason for voting as they did.   That is a very substantial figure, even if it the case that 49% gave sovereignty as the main reason. So the initial evidence would seem to suggest that the 33% could well have been the deciding factor.

It is also the case that there are social reasons people do not always give the honest answer when surveyed, so the figures could be closer than the 33-49% would suggest. There is no need to dwell on that though, since 33% is already substantial.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:45 PM

No, Nigel. Immigration is only a cause of concern to those who are against it. There are no radical pro immigration bodies in this country as far as I know. On the other hand people like Farage, organisations like UKIP and the popular media are all examples of radical anti immigration bodies. Take those and their supporters out of the equation and the remain vote remains the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:40 PM

https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/publications/report/2017/eu-member-states/statutory-minimum-wages-in-the-eu-2017

Explanations for internal EU immigration/emigration at a glance.

Like anything else in life: follow the money.
“Migration and poverty are undoubtedly the two most painful consequences experienced by a society in protracted crisis conditions,”

The number of Greeks aged 15-64 who left the country since 2008 is 427,000. In 2013 alone, 100,000 people migrated, tripling the yearly average until then. The phenomenon continued with unabated intensity in 2014 and further exacerbated in the first half of 2015.

The Greek emigration wave for work abroad is still in progress and does not appear to be slowing down as unemployment remains at 25%.


Change in statutory minimum wages in real terms between 1 January 2010 and 1 January 2017
Greece -24.3%
Bulgaria +86%

and in their madness the EU expects all these disparate economies to work under a single currency. So far the sole winner is Germany.
Thank God we kept independence with the pound.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:43 AM

Tommyrot. First, of course no-one can precisely quantify the effects on the final result of the various issues that arose during the referendum campaign. But only a clown with his head in the sand would deny that immigration was either at the top or very close to the top of the list of crucial factors that swung the vote. All through the campaign we had talk of foreigners taking our jobs, driving down wages, of our taking back control of our borders, of immigration out of control, of the NHS overwhelmed, and then that Farage poster, not least. The vote was closer than 52-48 and you're trying to tell us that, without the immigration issue constantly to the fore, remain wouldn't have won handsomely?
If your appraisal of the 'Leave' vote is correct, what were the 'Remain' voters voting against?
If you are correct that "immigration was either at the top or very close to the top of the list of crucial factors" then can we assume that you, and those who voted with you, were already aware of this, and voting against Brexit on that basis?
If so, taking immigration out of the debate would have reduced voter turn-out on both sides.
In which case your idea of how this would have affected the outcome is groundless.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:38 AM

Pete,
. i just object when any country takes weapons, or sells arms, to another country

Do you not believe that nations without an arms industry should have the right to buy the means to defend themselves?
You mention Estonia. They are in fear of the Russian army on their border. They buy defence equipment, and welcome British and other armies to stand with them against the threat.

BBC, "But today, sitting less than 150km (93 miles) from the Russian border, it is the base for a Nato battle group - here, according to the alliance, to reassure the Estonians and to demonstrate Nato's solidarity to Moscow.
The decision to deploy Nato troops eastwards - the closest its bases have ever come to Russian territory - came in the wake of Russia's seizure of Crimea and its military operations in eastern Ukraine. Many of the alliance's northern and central European members were alarmed, especially the Baltic republics, whose territory, like that of Ukraine, was once part of the Soviet Union."

"The UK commands the Nato battle group in Estonia. It is based on a single British infantry battalion - currently 5 Rifles - with Warrior armoured vehicles, and it incorporates a company of French infantry. They are supported by a small number of British Challenger and French Leclerc tanks. There is also a small complement of artillery, engineers and other supporting arms."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40554104

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:38 AM

Twas my understanding the mods do want they need to do without discussing it with self appointed arbiters.

Well, when one is a fellow traveler............

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:33 AM

" it's the same reason cockroaches scurry away to hide when a light comes on."

Very nearly caused me to spill my coffee! You have a way with words.

Twas my understanding the mods do want they need to do without discussing it with self appointed arbiters.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:21 AM

Truth is stranger than fiction, bobad. You could try asking the mods who got the discussion closed down instead of guessing wrongly and attempting to smear. Over and out from me on that particular matter, which shouldn't be in this thread at all, should it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:17 AM

Tommyrot. First, of course no-one can precisely quantify the effects on the final result of the various issues that arose during the referendum campaign. But only a clown with his head in the sand would deny that immigration was either at the top or very close to the top of the list of crucial factors that swung the vote. All through the campaign we had talk of foreigners taking our jobs, driving down wages, of our taking back control of our borders, of immigration out of control, of the NHS overwhelmed, and then that Farage poster, not least. The vote was closer than 52-48 and you're trying to tell us that, without the immigration issue constantly to the fore, remain wouldn't have won handsomely?

As for your tired old ever-closer union guff, trotted tiredly out yet again, it's a complete illusion. Every state in the EU wants to keep its own distinct national identity. The vast majority of domestic laws in EU countries have nothing to do with the EU. Larger states such as the UK have the power of veto over any suggested fundamental political changes. Almost all our laws in this country, and the overwhelming bulk of our GDP, are our own sovereign business and cannot be touched by the EU and that can't be changed if we say no. For a change, why don't you instead condemn the attacks on parliamentary sovereignty by Theresa May who had to be taken to court to be forced to allow parliament a say on Article 50, and whose every major action is done in the interests of your party instead of that of the country?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:17 AM

The sad thing is that you may well succeed in getting discussion suppressed here.

It's no mystery why they get those discussions suppressed - it's the same reason cockroaches scurry away to hide when a light comes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 09:57 AM

Ah, the Jim Carroll viewpoint.

No. The viewpoint of many, including me.

I believe you when you say that your reasons were not to do with immigration but for many others that was the main reason to vote leave. That, in my opinion, is what tipped the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 09:30 AM

Well said, Pete. Sadly it was the politicians demonising and scapegoating immigrants to the UK that got us into this brexit mess in the first place.
Ah, the Jim Carroll viewpoint.

It has been pointed out here many times that immigration was not the sole, or even the main, reason for wishing to leave the EU, an alliance of countries pushing for ever-closer integration, and meaning that the UK would no longer be able to be a sovereign state, was, for many, the reason to exit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:53 AM

Nothing to disagree with there, Pete. The world is getting smaller by the minute and the sooner people start to get on with each other the better it will be.

Even if they say you're a dreamer. You're not the only one :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:31 AM

of course - and many years of right wing press. just recently, i've become so irritated and bored by these sort of discussions on real non-events like tory brexit policies or labour's so-called anti-semite problems. we are just (semi) intellectually fiddling about with these trivial matters while the world literally burns and is at war.

we need to get serious about striving for peace and compassion and stop giving attention to politicians and the wealthy who are motivated by greed and spite. i like the idea that left and right don't matter so much these days and it is now a struggle between open/closed or positive and negative people. (here in cliche city!) are you a part of the problem or the solution?

you may say i'm a dreamer.....but don't bother calling me a hippy as i take it as a compliment. (but iain - don't use that disgusting term 'l.....d' again - anywhere)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:16 AM

Well said, Pete. Sadly it was the politicians demonising and scapegoating immigrants to the UK that got us into this brexit mess in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:05 AM

of course we need offices in other countries to promote cultural links and to help out, eg scots in estonia who need some advice on residency/passport matters. i just object when any country takes weapons, or sells arms, to another country. it's just such a colossal waste of money that would be far better used in other ways. sadly, we give far too much respect to politicians and religious leaders who lead us and succeed by driving policies to do with demonising and scapegoating our fellow citizens in other regions. they are imagination and compassion free - and seemingly a different species from all the good people we meet every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:55 AM

and of course a vital UN peacekeeping role.


https://ippjournal.wordpress.com/2016/03/17/eu-contribution-to-un-peacekeeping/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:41 AM

"Europe does not need any troops."

So all the missions listed below are an irrelevancy and should be cancelled?

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/430/military-and-civilian-missions-and-operations_en

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:16 AM

Re other thread,
The sad thing is that you may well succeed in getting discussion suppressed here.

Sometimes I hate being right all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:58 AM

Pete,
why would any other EU country 'need' british military? or more pertinently, american bases?

Ask them Pete, because they are quite clear that they do.
Could it be that they know more about the threats they face than you do?
Or even you, Jim, Dave and Steve together!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:50 AM

Europe does not need any troops. We really should be working towards a world where vast military expenditures are not necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:48 AM

so now we are planning for shortages of medicines and food. i don't think this was what people voted for - it is utter lunacy. do you brexiteers have no doubts still? or shame?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:11 AM

I'd agree with the mystery bit, Jim, but magical..? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:55 AM

"Wrong assumption. We are not leaving Nato"
NOT IF YOUR FRIEND DONALD DUCK HAS HIS WAY

"and Europe needs British troops."
SURE IT DOES !!!

THis Brexit thing eally is a REALLY IS A.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:37 AM

One of my friends has a song in which he says of his life "he played a poor hand well" and I have to say the I think May did that really well on the last day of Parliament.

1. She has made Raab responsible for producing some 70 or so essays on "Why a no deal could be bad for you", many to be issued before Parliament returns.


2. She has taken control of the EU negotiations with a government approved proposal as a starting point, but not and end point (see Hunt's comments)

3. Even if the fabled 48 letters arrive, there can be no vote in Parliament until the next sitting.

4. She has said we will be under all EU rules until the end of transition and, as with the vote, there can be no effective protest until Parliament bext sits.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Monique
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 08:43 PM

Raab admits planing to secure food supply for no deal Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 08:15 PM

For crying out loud!

It seems that the Chancellor has earmarked 3 billions pounds for contingency planning.

Not for goods and services themselves, just for planning the supply of those goods and services!

Again, could some kind person link to the article in the Guardian "Raab admits planing to secure food supply for no deal Brexit"

Any GOOD news anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 07:35 PM

I seem to recall a poster on here was somewhat dubious about the need to stockpile medicines in case of a "no deal Brexit"

It would seem that the current Health Secretary Matt Hancock has advised the NHS to do just that.

Stockpiles of Blood products, medical supplies, vaccines, medical devices and clinical consumables are to be created.

Just fills you with confidence doesn't it (not)

Could a kind person link to the article in the Guradian "NHS preparing to stockpile drugs for no Brexit deal"

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 07:09 PM

yes putin, why not? jaw, jaw etc.....and he certainly makes more sense than the american

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 05:54 PM

Oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 04:26 PM

Like Putin for instance?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 03:46 PM

yep - it's certainly a good time to be making friends with our neighbours