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BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Stu 27 Sep 17 - 07:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 17 - 07:10 AM
Jack Campin 27 Sep 17 - 07:26 AM
akenaton 27 Sep 17 - 07:44 AM
Jack Campin 27 Sep 17 - 07:54 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Sep 17 - 08:35 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Sep 17 - 08:46 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 17 - 09:16 AM
Stu 27 Sep 17 - 09:40 AM
Ed. 27 Sep 17 - 10:01 AM
Stu 27 Sep 17 - 10:01 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Sep 17 - 10:54 AM
akenaton 27 Sep 17 - 11:09 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 17 - 11:38 AM
akenaton 27 Sep 17 - 11:59 AM
Stu 27 Sep 17 - 12:15 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 17 - 12:17 PM
Stu 27 Sep 17 - 12:29 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 17 - 01:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 17 - 01:22 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 17 - 01:28 PM
Stu 27 Sep 17 - 02:22 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 17 - 02:57 PM
Raggytash 27 Sep 17 - 03:22 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 17 - 04:39 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 17 - 04:44 PM
Iains 27 Sep 17 - 05:08 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 17 - 05:24 PM
Stu 27 Sep 17 - 05:29 PM
Donuel 27 Sep 17 - 06:02 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 17 - 06:06 PM
akenaton 27 Sep 17 - 06:21 PM
Donuel 27 Sep 17 - 07:02 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 17 - 08:15 PM
Iains 27 Sep 17 - 10:46 PM
Ed. 27 Sep 17 - 11:52 PM
akenaton 28 Sep 17 - 01:45 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 17 - 03:05 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Sep 17 - 03:17 AM
Iains 28 Sep 17 - 03:29 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 17 - 03:52 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 17 - 03:54 AM
Mr Red 28 Sep 17 - 04:11 AM
Iains 28 Sep 17 - 04:15 AM
Nigel Parsons 28 Sep 17 - 04:48 AM
DMcG 28 Sep 17 - 07:19 AM
DMcG 28 Sep 17 - 07:19 AM
Iains 28 Sep 17 - 07:52 AM
Nigel Parsons 28 Sep 17 - 07:59 AM
Iains 28 Sep 17 - 08:06 AM
Iains 28 Sep 17 - 09:00 AM
DMcG 28 Sep 17 - 09:48 AM
Iains 28 Sep 17 - 10:57 AM
DMcG 28 Sep 17 - 12:54 PM
Iains 28 Sep 17 - 03:04 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Sep 17 - 07:49 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Sep 17 - 07:52 PM
robomatic 28 Sep 17 - 08:47 PM
DMcG 29 Sep 17 - 01:42 AM
Iains 29 Sep 17 - 03:17 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Sep 17 - 08:36 AM
Teribus 29 Sep 17 - 08:51 AM
bobad 29 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM
Stanron 29 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Sep 17 - 09:30 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Sep 17 - 09:32 AM
Iains 29 Sep 17 - 09:57 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Sep 17 - 10:10 AM
Teribus 29 Sep 17 - 10:11 AM
David Carter (UK) 29 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM
Iains 29 Sep 17 - 10:36 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Sep 17 - 10:38 AM
David Carter (UK) 29 Sep 17 - 11:08 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 17 - 11:13 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Sep 17 - 11:14 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 17 - 11:17 AM
David Carter (UK) 29 Sep 17 - 11:22 AM
David Carter (UK) 29 Sep 17 - 11:26 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Sep 17 - 11:51 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Sep 17 - 11:59 AM
Teribus 29 Sep 17 - 12:14 PM
Teribus 29 Sep 17 - 12:29 PM
Iains 29 Sep 17 - 12:40 PM
David Carter (UK) 29 Sep 17 - 01:56 PM
Iains 29 Sep 17 - 03:00 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Sep 17 - 03:00 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Sep 17 - 03:01 PM
Iains 29 Sep 17 - 03:05 PM
David Carter (UK) 29 Sep 17 - 03:22 PM
Iains 29 Sep 17 - 03:33 PM
Nigel Parsons 29 Sep 17 - 04:27 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Sep 17 - 05:26 PM
akenaton 29 Sep 17 - 05:37 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 17 - 05:52 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 17 - 06:16 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Sep 17 - 06:54 PM
Iains 30 Sep 17 - 03:26 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 17 - 04:00 AM
David Carter (UK) 30 Sep 17 - 04:21 AM
David Carter (UK) 30 Sep 17 - 04:25 AM
Nigel Parsons 30 Sep 17 - 06:42 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 17 - 07:11 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 17 - 07:33 AM
akenaton 30 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM
David Carter (UK) 30 Sep 17 - 02:28 PM
Nigel Parsons 30 Sep 17 - 03:01 PM
Nigel Parsons 30 Sep 17 - 03:16 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 17 - 03:25 PM
Nigel Parsons 30 Sep 17 - 03:35 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 17 - 03:45 PM
Nigel Parsons 30 Sep 17 - 03:57 PM
Nigel Parsons 30 Sep 17 - 03:59 PM
Nigel Parsons 30 Sep 17 - 04:11 PM
Nigel Parsons 30 Sep 17 - 04:13 PM
Nigel Parsons 30 Sep 17 - 04:15 PM
akenaton 30 Sep 17 - 04:30 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 17 - 04:51 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 17 - 04:58 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 17 - 05:02 PM
Nigel Parsons 30 Sep 17 - 05:06 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 17 - 06:48 PM
Teribus 30 Sep 17 - 07:06 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 17 - 09:13 PM
Teribus 01 Oct 17 - 02:13 AM
Iains 01 Oct 17 - 03:36 AM
Stu 01 Oct 17 - 04:37 AM
Teribus 01 Oct 17 - 04:43 AM
David Carter (UK) 01 Oct 17 - 05:13 AM
Teribus 01 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM
David Carter (UK) 01 Oct 17 - 06:08 AM
Iains 01 Oct 17 - 06:13 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Oct 17 - 06:34 AM
Stu 01 Oct 17 - 06:36 AM
David Carter (UK) 01 Oct 17 - 07:06 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM
Teribus 01 Oct 17 - 12:35 PM
Iains 01 Oct 17 - 01:09 PM
akenaton 01 Oct 17 - 01:25 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 17 - 01:26 PM
Teribus 01 Oct 17 - 01:29 PM
Teribus 01 Oct 17 - 01:54 PM
Iains 01 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM
Stu 01 Oct 17 - 02:12 PM
Iains 01 Oct 17 - 02:16 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Oct 17 - 02:33 PM
Iains 01 Oct 17 - 02:49 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Oct 17 - 08:02 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Oct 17 - 08:14 PM
Teribus 02 Oct 17 - 03:06 AM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 03:41 AM
Teribus 02 Oct 17 - 03:45 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 03:53 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM
Nigel Parsons 02 Oct 17 - 04:13 AM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM
Mr Red 02 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 02 Oct 17 - 05:27 AM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 06:13 AM
Teribus 02 Oct 17 - 07:55 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Oct 17 - 07:58 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM
Teribus 02 Oct 17 - 08:30 AM
Teribus 02 Oct 17 - 08:34 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 08:39 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 08:42 AM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 09:05 AM
Teribus 02 Oct 17 - 09:09 AM
Nigel Parsons 02 Oct 17 - 09:10 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 09:34 AM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 09:37 AM
Nigel Parsons 02 Oct 17 - 10:03 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 10:15 AM
MikeL2 02 Oct 17 - 10:22 AM
Nigel Parsons 02 Oct 17 - 10:26 AM
Teribus 02 Oct 17 - 10:30 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 10:40 AM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 12:27 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Oct 17 - 12:54 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 01:08 PM
Teribus 02 Oct 17 - 01:35 PM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 01:56 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Oct 17 - 02:17 PM
MikeL2 02 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Oct 17 - 04:00 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Oct 17 - 06:19 PM
Nigel Parsons 03 Oct 17 - 03:37 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM
Mr Red 03 Oct 17 - 05:52 AM
DMcG 03 Oct 17 - 06:28 AM
Nigel Parsons 03 Oct 17 - 06:44 AM
DMcG 03 Oct 17 - 07:06 AM
Nigel Parsons 03 Oct 17 - 07:57 AM
MikeL2 03 Oct 17 - 02:55 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Oct 17 - 05:13 PM
Teribus 04 Oct 17 - 02:40 AM
Iains 04 Oct 17 - 04:16 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 17 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 17 - 04:32 AM
Iains 04 Oct 17 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 17 - 06:35 AM
Nigel Parsons 04 Oct 17 - 07:23 AM
Teribus 04 Oct 17 - 08:16 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Oct 17 - 10:14 AM
Nigel Parsons 04 Oct 17 - 11:20 AM
Teribus 04 Oct 17 - 12:10 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Oct 17 - 12:11 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Oct 17 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 17 - 12:24 PM
Teribus 04 Oct 17 - 12:31 PM
Teribus 04 Oct 17 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 17 - 01:33 PM
Iains 04 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 17 - 03:01 PM
MikeL2 04 Oct 17 - 03:04 PM
Iains 04 Oct 17 - 03:12 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM
Teribus 04 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Oct 17 - 03:23 PM
Nigel Parsons 04 Oct 17 - 04:25 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Oct 17 - 04:34 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 17 - 08:34 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Oct 17 - 08:47 PM
Teribus 05 Oct 17 - 02:34 AM
Teribus 05 Oct 17 - 03:59 AM
Raggytash 05 Oct 17 - 04:22 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 17 - 05:28 AM
Teribus 05 Oct 17 - 06:11 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Oct 17 - 06:19 AM
Raggytash 05 Oct 17 - 06:41 AM
Teribus 05 Oct 17 - 06:55 AM
Raggytash 05 Oct 17 - 06:59 AM
Iains 05 Oct 17 - 07:03 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Oct 17 - 07:04 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Oct 17 - 07:08 AM
Raggytash 05 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM
Iains 05 Oct 17 - 08:26 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 17 - 09:40 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 Oct 17 - 11:30 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 17 - 11:52 AM
Teribus 05 Oct 17 - 12:08 PM
Teribus 05 Oct 17 - 12:34 PM
Raggytash 05 Oct 17 - 02:39 PM
Teribus 05 Oct 17 - 02:51 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 17 - 06:23 PM
Teribus 06 Oct 17 - 01:34 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 17 - 04:27 AM
Raggytash 06 Oct 17 - 04:43 AM
Iains 06 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM
Teribus 06 Oct 17 - 07:19 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM
Raggytash 06 Oct 17 - 07:54 AM
bobad 06 Oct 17 - 10:35 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 17 - 11:24 AM
Teribus 06 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 17 - 03:30 PM
Teribus 06 Oct 17 - 03:45 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 17 - 05:48 PM
akenaton 06 Oct 17 - 05:57 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 17 - 06:07 PM
Teribus 07 Oct 17 - 02:43 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Oct 17 - 12:25 PM
Teribus 07 Oct 17 - 12:37 PM
peteaberdeen 07 Oct 17 - 03:02 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Oct 17 - 03:10 PM
Teribus 07 Oct 17 - 03:14 PM
Nigel Parsons 07 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM
peteaberdeen 07 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM
peteaberdeen 07 Oct 17 - 03:32 PM
Teribus 07 Oct 17 - 03:37 PM
peteaberdeen 07 Oct 17 - 03:47 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Oct 17 - 03:49 PM
Backwoodsman 07 Oct 17 - 03:50 PM
akenaton 07 Oct 17 - 03:52 PM
Teribus 07 Oct 17 - 04:30 PM
Teribus 07 Oct 17 - 04:38 PM
DMcG 07 Oct 17 - 05:17 PM
Backwoodsman 07 Oct 17 - 05:23 PM
Backwoodsman 07 Oct 17 - 05:27 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Oct 17 - 06:30 PM
Teribus 08 Oct 17 - 02:00 AM
DMcG 08 Oct 17 - 03:21 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Oct 17 - 03:21 AM
Teribus 08 Oct 17 - 03:57 AM
Iains 08 Oct 17 - 04:02 AM
DMcG 08 Oct 17 - 04:14 AM
Iains 08 Oct 17 - 04:22 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Oct 17 - 05:46 AM
Teribus 08 Oct 17 - 12:09 PM
Nigel Parsons 08 Oct 17 - 12:17 PM
DMcG 08 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM
akenaton 08 Oct 17 - 12:44 PM
Teribus 08 Oct 17 - 01:04 PM
DMcG 08 Oct 17 - 01:23 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Oct 17 - 01:38 PM
Nigel Parsons 08 Oct 17 - 07:36 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Oct 17 - 07:52 PM
Teribus 09 Oct 17 - 02:43 AM
Iains 09 Oct 17 - 04:00 AM
peteaberdeen 09 Oct 17 - 04:12 AM
DMcG 09 Oct 17 - 04:34 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 05:14 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Oct 17 - 05:24 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 05:41 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Oct 17 - 05:45 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 05:52 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 05:54 AM
Iains 09 Oct 17 - 06:25 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Oct 17 - 06:44 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 07:31 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Oct 17 - 07:41 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 07:53 AM
akenaton 09 Oct 17 - 10:43 AM
Iains 09 Oct 17 - 10:46 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 10:55 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 11:21 AM
Iains 09 Oct 17 - 11:47 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 11:57 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 12:01 PM
Nigel Parsons 09 Oct 17 - 12:01 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 12:04 PM
Jack Campin 09 Oct 17 - 12:44 PM
DMcG 09 Oct 17 - 01:23 PM
Iains 09 Oct 17 - 01:28 PM
Raggytash 09 Oct 17 - 01:54 PM
DMcG 09 Oct 17 - 02:24 PM
peteaberdeen 09 Oct 17 - 02:54 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 05:27 PM
akenaton 09 Oct 17 - 05:47 PM
akenaton 09 Oct 17 - 05:54 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Oct 17 - 06:18 PM
DMcG 10 Oct 17 - 02:16 AM
akenaton 10 Oct 17 - 04:40 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Oct 17 - 04:47 AM
Raggytash 10 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Oct 17 - 05:34 AM
Raggytash 10 Oct 17 - 05:54 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Oct 17 - 06:56 AM
Raggytash 10 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM
Iains 10 Oct 17 - 07:17 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Oct 17 - 07:37 AM
Raggytash 10 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM
Raggytash 10 Oct 17 - 07:47 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Oct 17 - 07:52 AM
DMcG 10 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM
Iains 10 Oct 17 - 08:02 AM
Raggytash 10 Oct 17 - 08:09 AM
Raggytash 10 Oct 17 - 08:10 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Oct 17 - 08:13 AM
Raggytash 10 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Oct 17 - 09:37 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Oct 17 - 09:57 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Oct 17 - 10:17 AM
DMcG 10 Oct 17 - 10:21 AM
Stu 10 Oct 17 - 10:30 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Oct 17 - 10:44 AM
akenaton 10 Oct 17 - 12:03 PM
Raggytash 10 Oct 17 - 01:02 PM
DMcG 10 Oct 17 - 01:30 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Oct 17 - 01:44 PM
akenaton 10 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Oct 17 - 03:51 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Oct 17 - 05:23 PM
Stu 11 Oct 17 - 03:16 AM
Nigel Parsons 11 Oct 17 - 03:23 AM
Nigel Parsons 11 Oct 17 - 03:36 AM
peteaberdeen 11 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM
peteaberdeen 11 Oct 17 - 02:21 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM
akenaton 12 Oct 17 - 03:10 AM
peteaberdeen 12 Oct 17 - 03:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM
Stu 12 Oct 17 - 04:25 AM
akenaton 12 Oct 17 - 04:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 17 - 04:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 17 - 04:37 AM
akenaton 12 Oct 17 - 04:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Oct 17 - 04:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 17 - 04:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 17 - 05:08 AM
Stu 12 Oct 17 - 05:09 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Oct 17 - 05:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 17 - 05:43 AM
Stu 12 Oct 17 - 05:44 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 17 - 05:58 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Oct 17 - 06:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 17 - 06:18 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Oct 17 - 07:57 AM
DMcG 12 Oct 17 - 08:33 AM
akenaton 12 Oct 17 - 10:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 17 - 10:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 17 - 10:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 17 - 10:50 AM
akenaton 12 Oct 17 - 10:59 AM
Mr Red 12 Oct 17 - 11:00 AM
DMcG 12 Oct 17 - 11:04 AM
peteaberdeen 12 Oct 17 - 11:14 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 17 - 11:37 AM
akenaton 12 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM
Stu 12 Oct 17 - 12:41 PM
akenaton 12 Oct 17 - 01:03 PM
peteaberdeen 12 Oct 17 - 01:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 17 - 02:28 PM
Stu 12 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM
DMcG 12 Oct 17 - 02:46 PM
Raggytash 12 Oct 17 - 03:33 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 17 - 04:24 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 17 - 04:41 PM
Nigel Parsons 12 Oct 17 - 05:12 PM
Iains 12 Oct 17 - 05:20 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 17 - 05:52 PM
Nigel Parsons 12 Oct 17 - 07:12 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 17 - 07:35 PM
DMcG 13 Oct 17 - 01:52 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Oct 17 - 04:02 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Oct 17 - 04:18 AM
akenaton 13 Oct 17 - 05:07 AM
Stu 13 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Oct 17 - 06:13 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Oct 17 - 06:49 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Oct 17 - 07:58 AM
Raggytash 13 Oct 17 - 08:21 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Oct 17 - 08:44 AM
MikeL2 13 Oct 17 - 10:11 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Oct 17 - 11:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Oct 17 - 01:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Oct 17 - 01:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Oct 17 - 01:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Oct 17 - 02:19 PM
Iains 13 Oct 17 - 03:58 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Oct 17 - 05:45 PM
Donuel 13 Oct 17 - 06:04 PM
peteaberdeen 13 Oct 17 - 06:26 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Oct 17 - 06:43 PM
Iains 14 Oct 17 - 03:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 17 - 05:20 AM
DMcG 14 Oct 17 - 05:23 AM
Mr Red 14 Oct 17 - 05:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 17 - 06:51 AM
Mr Red 14 Oct 17 - 12:45 PM
Raggytash 14 Oct 17 - 12:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 17 - 01:06 PM
Raggytash 14 Oct 17 - 01:11 PM
DMcG 14 Oct 17 - 01:15 PM
peteaberdeen 14 Oct 17 - 04:19 PM
akenaton 14 Oct 17 - 04:59 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Oct 17 - 07:03 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Oct 17 - 07:14 PM
DMcG 15 Oct 17 - 03:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 17 - 04:06 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Oct 17 - 04:43 AM
Mr Red 15 Oct 17 - 05:51 AM
MikeL2 15 Oct 17 - 07:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 17 - 07:10 AM
Teribus 15 Oct 17 - 12:27 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Oct 17 - 02:07 PM
akenaton 15 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Oct 17 - 02:25 PM
Raggytash 15 Oct 17 - 02:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM
peteaberdeen 15 Oct 17 - 03:05 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Oct 17 - 03:42 PM
peteaberdeen 15 Oct 17 - 04:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Oct 17 - 03:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 17 - 03:34 AM
Raggytash 16 Oct 17 - 03:50 AM
Iains 16 Oct 17 - 04:06 AM
Mr Red 16 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM
Raggytash 16 Oct 17 - 04:27 AM
DMcG 16 Oct 17 - 05:05 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Oct 17 - 05:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Oct 17 - 05:33 AM
DMcG 16 Oct 17 - 05:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 17 - 05:53 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Oct 17 - 07:25 AM
akenaton 16 Oct 17 - 07:54 AM
DMcG 16 Oct 17 - 08:21 AM
Stu 16 Oct 17 - 08:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Oct 17 - 10:11 AM
DMcG 16 Oct 17 - 10:28 AM
Raggytash 16 Oct 17 - 11:26 AM
Mr Red 16 Oct 17 - 11:45 AM
Stu 16 Oct 17 - 11:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Oct 17 - 11:58 AM
Stu 16 Oct 17 - 12:31 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Oct 17 - 12:31 PM
akenaton 16 Oct 17 - 12:43 PM
Stu 16 Oct 17 - 12:48 PM
peteaberdeen 16 Oct 17 - 01:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 17 - 03:09 PM
Raggytash 16 Oct 17 - 03:23 PM
Stanron 16 Oct 17 - 04:20 PM
akenaton 16 Oct 17 - 04:29 PM
peteaberdeen 16 Oct 17 - 04:50 PM
Stanron 16 Oct 17 - 05:05 PM
peteaberdeen 16 Oct 17 - 05:11 PM
DMcG 16 Oct 17 - 05:17 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Oct 17 - 06:28 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Oct 17 - 06:31 PM
Stanron 16 Oct 17 - 06:56 PM
akenaton 16 Oct 17 - 07:08 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Oct 17 - 07:21 PM
akenaton 17 Oct 17 - 03:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Oct 17 - 04:13 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 17 - 04:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Oct 17 - 04:18 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 04:21 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 04:34 AM
akenaton 17 Oct 17 - 04:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Oct 17 - 04:39 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM
Stu 17 Oct 17 - 05:35 AM
akenaton 17 Oct 17 - 06:38 AM
Stu 17 Oct 17 - 08:25 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 09:23 AM
Stu 17 Oct 17 - 09:47 AM
DMcG 17 Oct 17 - 10:11 AM
Iains 17 Oct 17 - 10:14 AM
akenaton 17 Oct 17 - 10:36 AM
Stu 17 Oct 17 - 10:38 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 Oct 17 - 10:45 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 11:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Oct 17 - 11:23 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 11:47 AM
akenaton 17 Oct 17 - 12:04 PM
Iains 17 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM
Raggytash 17 Oct 17 - 12:26 PM
Iains 17 Oct 17 - 12:35 PM
DMcG 17 Oct 17 - 01:12 PM
Stanron 17 Oct 17 - 02:12 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 17 - 05:31 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 17 - 06:04 PM
DMcG 17 Oct 17 - 06:21 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 17 - 07:34 PM
akenaton 18 Oct 17 - 03:00 AM
Teribus 18 Oct 17 - 03:10 AM
Teribus 18 Oct 17 - 03:31 AM
Raggytash 18 Oct 17 - 04:13 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Oct 17 - 04:21 AM
Iains 18 Oct 17 - 04:21 AM
Raggytash 18 Oct 17 - 04:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 17 - 04:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 17 - 04:54 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 17 - 05:01 AM
Raggytash 18 Oct 17 - 05:19 AM
Iains 18 Oct 17 - 05:34 AM
Raggytash 18 Oct 17 - 05:36 AM
Raggytash 18 Oct 17 - 05:38 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Oct 17 - 05:39 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 17 - 05:42 AM
Iains 18 Oct 17 - 05:45 AM
Raggytash 18 Oct 17 - 05:55 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Oct 17 - 06:00 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 17 - 06:09 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Oct 17 - 06:34 AM
Mr Red 18 Oct 17 - 07:07 AM
Iains 18 Oct 17 - 07:12 AM
Raggytash 18 Oct 17 - 07:12 AM
Raggytash 18 Oct 17 - 07:14 AM
Iains 18 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM
Raggytash 18 Oct 17 - 07:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Oct 17 - 07:53 AM
DMcG 18 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 17 - 08:05 AM
Raggytash 18 Oct 17 - 08:30 AM
Teribus 18 Oct 17 - 09:06 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Oct 17 - 09:13 AM
Raggytash 18 Oct 17 - 09:15 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 17 - 09:28 AM
MikeL2 18 Oct 17 - 09:32 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 17 - 09:37 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Oct 17 - 09:42 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 17 - 09:46 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 17 - 09:48 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Oct 17 - 09:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 17 - 11:57 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Oct 17 - 12:10 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 17 - 12:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 17 - 01:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 17 - 02:19 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM
MikeL2 18 Oct 17 - 02:27 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 17 - 02:39 PM
Raggytash 18 Oct 17 - 03:30 PM
Raggytash 18 Oct 17 - 03:32 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 17 - 05:09 PM
Iains 19 Oct 17 - 03:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 17 - 03:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 17 - 04:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 17 - 04:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 17 - 04:33 AM
DMcG 19 Oct 17 - 04:33 AM
Iains 19 Oct 17 - 04:54 AM
Raggytash 19 Oct 17 - 05:17 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 17 - 05:38 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Oct 17 - 05:42 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Oct 17 - 05:48 AM
akenaton 19 Oct 17 - 05:55 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 17 - 06:00 AM
SPB-Cooperator 19 Oct 17 - 06:15 AM
Raggytash 19 Oct 17 - 06:17 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 17 - 06:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 17 - 06:28 AM
SPB-Cooperator 19 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 17 - 04:39 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 17 - 05:53 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 17 - 06:14 PM
akenaton 20 Oct 17 - 03:25 AM
akenaton 20 Oct 17 - 03:31 AM
Iains 20 Oct 17 - 03:37 AM
Teribus 20 Oct 17 - 03:40 AM
DMcG 20 Oct 17 - 04:41 AM
Teribus 20 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM
DMcG 20 Oct 17 - 05:24 AM
akenaton 20 Oct 17 - 05:45 AM
DMcG 20 Oct 17 - 05:48 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Oct 17 - 05:55 AM
DMcG 20 Oct 17 - 05:56 AM
Teribus 20 Oct 17 - 05:56 AM
akenaton 20 Oct 17 - 06:07 AM
DMcG 20 Oct 17 - 06:11 AM
Teribus 20 Oct 17 - 07:09 AM
DMcG 20 Oct 17 - 07:15 AM
DMcG 20 Oct 17 - 07:22 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 17 - 09:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 17 - 09:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 17 - 09:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 17 - 09:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 17 - 09:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 17 - 09:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 17 - 09:50 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 17 - 10:03 AM
Iains 20 Oct 17 - 10:47 AM
Raggytash 20 Oct 17 - 10:50 AM
Teribus 20 Oct 17 - 12:09 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 17 - 12:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 17 - 01:54 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 17 - 02:26 PM
Teribus 20 Oct 17 - 04:29 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 17 - 05:02 PM
Teribus 20 Oct 17 - 06:14 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 17 - 06:38 PM
Teribus 21 Oct 17 - 02:39 AM
Iains 21 Oct 17 - 03:21 AM
Iains 21 Oct 17 - 03:25 AM
DMcG 21 Oct 17 - 04:34 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Oct 17 - 05:32 AM
Teribus 21 Oct 17 - 06:24 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Oct 17 - 06:26 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Oct 17 - 06:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Oct 17 - 12:39 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Oct 17 - 03:19 PM
Iains 22 Oct 17 - 03:35 AM
DMcG 22 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Oct 17 - 06:05 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Oct 17 - 07:43 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 17 - 08:47 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Oct 17 - 09:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Oct 17 - 10:12 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Oct 17 - 10:37 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Oct 17 - 10:40 AM
Iains 22 Oct 17 - 10:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Oct 17 - 01:59 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Oct 17 - 02:09 PM
Iains 22 Oct 17 - 02:22 PM
Iains 22 Oct 17 - 02:43 PM
Raggytash 22 Oct 17 - 03:02 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Oct 17 - 04:01 PM
Iains 22 Oct 17 - 04:52 PM
Raggytash 22 Oct 17 - 05:00 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Oct 17 - 08:16 PM
Iains 23 Oct 17 - 03:16 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Oct 17 - 03:20 AM
Teribus 23 Oct 17 - 03:24 AM
Iains 23 Oct 17 - 03:40 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Oct 17 - 04:16 AM
Raggytash 23 Oct 17 - 04:45 AM
Iains 23 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 17 - 05:11 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Oct 17 - 05:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 17 - 05:15 AM
Raggytash 23 Oct 17 - 05:21 AM
Raggytash 23 Oct 17 - 05:27 AM
Iains 23 Oct 17 - 05:42 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 17 - 05:59 AM
Raggytash 23 Oct 17 - 06:00 AM
Iains 23 Oct 17 - 06:27 AM
Raggytash 23 Oct 17 - 06:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 17 - 06:42 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Oct 17 - 06:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 17 - 07:02 AM
Teribus 23 Oct 17 - 07:09 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Oct 17 - 07:23 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM
Raggytash 23 Oct 17 - 07:32 AM
Teribus 23 Oct 17 - 07:45 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Oct 17 - 08:14 AM
Raggytash 23 Oct 17 - 08:34 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Oct 17 - 09:21 AM
Raggytash 23 Oct 17 - 09:29 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Oct 17 - 10:12 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 17 - 10:31 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 17 - 10:39 AM
DMcG 23 Oct 17 - 10:43 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Oct 17 - 10:43 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 17 - 11:00 AM
akenaton 23 Oct 17 - 11:33 AM
Stu 23 Oct 17 - 11:47 AM
Greg F. 23 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Oct 17 - 11:53 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 17 - 11:56 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 17 - 12:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 17 - 01:07 PM
Teribus 23 Oct 17 - 01:56 PM
Stu 23 Oct 17 - 02:29 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 17 - 02:58 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Oct 17 - 03:30 PM
Teribus 23 Oct 17 - 03:43 PM
Iains 23 Oct 17 - 03:47 PM
Raggytash 23 Oct 17 - 04:08 PM
Iains 23 Oct 17 - 04:41 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 17 - 04:59 PM
Teribus 23 Oct 17 - 05:10 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 17 - 05:37 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 17 - 08:42 PM
Teribus 24 Oct 17 - 02:27 AM
Teribus 24 Oct 17 - 04:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 17 - 04:46 AM
Mr Red 24 Oct 17 - 05:32 AM
DMcG 24 Oct 17 - 06:02 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 17 - 06:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 17 - 06:28 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 17 - 06:56 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Oct 17 - 07:12 AM
Stu 24 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM
Teribus 24 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Oct 17 - 07:43 AM
Stu 24 Oct 17 - 08:04 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 17 - 08:20 AM
Teribus 24 Oct 17 - 08:37 AM
Stu 24 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Oct 17 - 09:00 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 17 - 09:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 17 - 12:51 PM
Iains 24 Oct 17 - 01:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 17 - 01:52 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 17 - 02:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 17 - 02:13 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 17 - 03:13 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 17 - 03:36 PM
Teribus 24 Oct 17 - 06:44 PM
Raggytash 24 Oct 17 - 07:02 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 17 - 07:59 PM
Teribus 25 Oct 17 - 02:37 AM
Teribus 25 Oct 17 - 02:41 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Oct 17 - 02:56 AM
Teribus 25 Oct 17 - 03:10 AM
Stu 25 Oct 17 - 03:17 AM
Teribus 25 Oct 17 - 03:48 AM
DMcG 25 Oct 17 - 03:51 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM
Teribus 25 Oct 17 - 04:04 AM
Teribus 25 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM
DMcG 25 Oct 17 - 04:20 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Oct 17 - 04:30 AM
MikeL2 25 Oct 17 - 06:22 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Oct 17 - 06:36 AM
Stu 25 Oct 17 - 06:45 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Oct 17 - 06:50 AM
Raggytash 25 Oct 17 - 06:59 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 17 - 07:13 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Oct 17 - 07:47 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Oct 17 - 07:58 AM
Stu 25 Oct 17 - 08:24 AM
Teribus 25 Oct 17 - 08:45 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM
DMcG 25 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM
Raggytash 25 Oct 17 - 09:27 AM
Teribus 25 Oct 17 - 09:33 AM
DMcG 25 Oct 17 - 09:53 AM
Teribus 25 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Oct 17 - 10:18 AM
DMcG 25 Oct 17 - 11:06 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM
DMcG 25 Oct 17 - 01:05 PM
Teribus 25 Oct 17 - 02:42 PM
Iains 26 Oct 17 - 06:30 AM
Raggytash 26 Oct 17 - 06:31 AM
Iains 26 Oct 17 - 06:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 17 - 10:43 AM
Raggytash 26 Oct 17 - 11:18 AM
DMcG 26 Oct 17 - 11:18 AM
Teribus 26 Oct 17 - 12:14 PM
DMcG 26 Oct 17 - 12:37 PM
Teribus 26 Oct 17 - 01:01 PM
Stu 26 Oct 17 - 02:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 17 - 02:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Oct 17 - 02:41 PM
Raggytash 26 Oct 17 - 03:02 PM
Stu 26 Oct 17 - 03:12 PM
Iains 26 Oct 17 - 03:29 PM
Stu 26 Oct 17 - 03:48 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Oct 17 - 06:00 PM
Teribus 26 Oct 17 - 07:13 PM
akenaton 26 Oct 17 - 07:27 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Oct 17 - 03:46 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Oct 17 - 03:46 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 04:04 AM
DMcG 27 Oct 17 - 04:16 AM
Teribus 27 Oct 17 - 04:17 AM
Iains 27 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 04:28 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 04:32 AM
DMcG 27 Oct 17 - 04:41 AM
Teribus 27 Oct 17 - 04:46 AM
DMcG 27 Oct 17 - 04:48 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 05:06 AM
Teribus 27 Oct 17 - 05:13 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 05:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Oct 17 - 07:00 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 07:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Oct 17 - 07:11 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 07:34 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Oct 17 - 09:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 10:03 AM
Teribus 27 Oct 17 - 11:13 AM
Raggytash 27 Oct 17 - 11:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Oct 17 - 12:21 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Oct 17 - 02:19 PM
Greg F. 27 Oct 17 - 06:25 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Oct 17 - 06:36 PM
Iains 28 Oct 17 - 05:18 AM
Raggytash 28 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM
Iains 28 Oct 17 - 06:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Oct 17 - 01:19 PM
Raggytash 28 Oct 17 - 04:42 PM
DMcG 29 Oct 17 - 02:46 AM
Raggytash 30 Oct 17 - 05:15 PM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 04:04 AM
Donuel 31 Oct 17 - 04:40 AM
Stu 31 Oct 17 - 04:52 AM
Donuel 31 Oct 17 - 05:13 AM
Donuel 31 Oct 17 - 07:06 AM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 07:17 AM
Donuel 31 Oct 17 - 07:40 AM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 07:55 AM
Donuel 31 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 17 - 08:15 AM
Stu 31 Oct 17 - 09:54 AM
Donuel 31 Oct 17 - 10:20 AM
akenaton 31 Oct 17 - 10:32 AM
Raggytash 31 Oct 17 - 11:03 AM
Greg F. 31 Oct 17 - 01:57 PM
Iains 01 Nov 17 - 03:06 AM
Stu 01 Nov 17 - 03:19 AM
Nigel Parsons 01 Nov 17 - 03:34 AM
Iains 01 Nov 17 - 03:35 AM
Nigel Parsons 01 Nov 17 - 03:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Nov 17 - 03:44 AM
Stu 01 Nov 17 - 05:37 AM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 06:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Nov 17 - 06:59 AM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 07:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Nov 17 - 07:06 AM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 17 - 07:46 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 17 - 07:47 AM
Nigel Parsons 01 Nov 17 - 07:51 AM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Nov 17 - 10:28 AM
Nigel Parsons 01 Nov 17 - 10:37 AM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 10:38 AM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 11:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Nov 17 - 11:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Nov 17 - 11:48 AM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 11:54 AM
Nigel Parsons 01 Nov 17 - 11:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Nov 17 - 11:59 AM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 12:07 PM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 12:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Nov 17 - 02:50 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 17 - 04:27 PM
DMcG 01 Nov 17 - 05:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Nov 17 - 04:27 AM
Nigel Parsons 02 Nov 17 - 09:56 AM
Raggytash 02 Nov 17 - 10:01 AM
Nigel Parsons 02 Nov 17 - 10:06 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Nov 17 - 01:54 PM
Iains 02 Nov 17 - 02:50 PM
DMcG 02 Nov 17 - 03:29 PM
Iains 02 Nov 17 - 03:45 PM
DMcG 02 Nov 17 - 03:49 PM
Stu 02 Nov 17 - 04:25 PM
Iains 02 Nov 17 - 05:18 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Nov 17 - 08:17 PM
Nigel Parsons 03 Nov 17 - 04:25 AM
Iains 03 Nov 17 - 05:03 AM
Nigel Parsons 03 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM
Raggytash 03 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM
Iains 03 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM
Raggytash 03 Nov 17 - 05:34 AM
Iains 03 Nov 17 - 05:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM
Raggytash 03 Nov 17 - 06:16 AM
Iains 03 Nov 17 - 06:32 AM
bobad 03 Nov 17 - 08:16 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Nov 17 - 01:58 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Nov 17 - 02:23 PM
Iains 03 Nov 17 - 02:39 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Nov 17 - 08:13 PM
Raggytash 04 Nov 17 - 02:21 AM
Iains 04 Nov 17 - 03:26 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM
Nigel Parsons 04 Nov 17 - 06:40 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Nov 17 - 06:47 AM
DMcG 04 Nov 17 - 06:55 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Nov 17 - 06:55 AM
akenaton 04 Nov 17 - 08:14 AM
Stu 04 Nov 17 - 09:01 AM
Donuel 04 Nov 17 - 10:10 AM
Greg F. 04 Nov 17 - 10:17 AM
akenaton 04 Nov 17 - 11:04 AM
Greg F. 04 Nov 17 - 11:47 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Nov 17 - 12:05 PM
Donuel 04 Nov 17 - 12:27 PM
Raggytash 04 Nov 17 - 01:57 PM
Greg F. 04 Nov 17 - 03:28 PM
Iains 04 Nov 17 - 03:35 PM
akenaton 04 Nov 17 - 04:53 PM
Greg F. 04 Nov 17 - 05:01 PM
akenaton 04 Nov 17 - 05:11 PM
Greg F. 04 Nov 17 - 05:16 PM
akenaton 04 Nov 17 - 05:17 PM
akenaton 04 Nov 17 - 05:20 PM
Greg F. 04 Nov 17 - 05:34 PM
bobad 04 Nov 17 - 05:52 PM
Greg F. 04 Nov 17 - 07:29 PM
Stu 05 Nov 17 - 04:46 AM
akenaton 05 Nov 17 - 05:38 AM
Raggytash 05 Nov 17 - 06:00 AM
akenaton 05 Nov 17 - 06:16 AM
Raggytash 05 Nov 17 - 06:21 AM
akenaton 05 Nov 17 - 06:45 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Nov 17 - 06:50 AM
Raggytash 05 Nov 17 - 07:18 AM
Stu 05 Nov 17 - 09:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Nov 17 - 03:22 PM
Greg F. 05 Nov 17 - 04:19 PM
akenaton 06 Nov 17 - 03:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 17 - 03:15 AM
akenaton 06 Nov 17 - 03:22 AM
akenaton 06 Nov 17 - 03:26 AM
DMcG 06 Nov 17 - 03:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 17 - 03:51 AM
akenaton 06 Nov 17 - 03:55 AM
Raggytash 06 Nov 17 - 04:15 AM
Stu 06 Nov 17 - 05:22 AM
DMcG 06 Nov 17 - 05:48 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Nov 17 - 06:14 AM
Raggytash 06 Nov 17 - 06:18 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Nov 17 - 06:21 AM
Stu 06 Nov 17 - 06:34 AM
Nigel Parsons 06 Nov 17 - 06:58 AM
Raggytash 06 Nov 17 - 07:04 AM
Stu 06 Nov 17 - 08:22 AM
Stanron 06 Nov 17 - 10:04 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Nov 17 - 10:37 AM
Nigel Parsons 06 Nov 17 - 11:01 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Nov 17 - 11:06 AM
akenaton 06 Nov 17 - 11:39 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Nov 17 - 04:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Nov 17 - 04:25 AM
Raggytash 07 Nov 17 - 04:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Nov 17 - 04:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Nov 17 - 04:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Nov 17 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Nov 17 - 04:49 AM
Stu 07 Nov 17 - 04:51 AM
Raggytash 07 Nov 17 - 05:26 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Nov 17 - 05:45 AM
Iains 07 Nov 17 - 05:47 AM
Raggytash 07 Nov 17 - 06:36 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Nov 17 - 06:45 AM
Stu 07 Nov 17 - 06:48 AM
Raggytash 07 Nov 17 - 06:51 AM
akenaton 07 Nov 17 - 07:04 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Nov 17 - 07:10 AM
Raggytash 07 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM
DMcG 07 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM
Stu 07 Nov 17 - 07:26 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Nov 17 - 07:41 AM
Iains 07 Nov 17 - 07:57 AM
Raggytash 07 Nov 17 - 08:07 AM
Iains 07 Nov 17 - 08:14 AM
DMcG 07 Nov 17 - 08:15 AM
Stu 07 Nov 17 - 08:32 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Nov 17 - 09:00 AM
DMcG 07 Nov 17 - 09:16 AM
DMcG 07 Nov 17 - 09:23 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Nov 17 - 07:08 PM
DMcG 08 Nov 17 - 01:52 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Nov 17 - 03:28 AM
akenaton 08 Nov 17 - 04:16 AM
Raggytash 08 Nov 17 - 04:25 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Nov 17 - 04:38 AM
Raggytash 08 Nov 17 - 05:02 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 05:09 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Nov 17 - 05:36 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 05:43 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Nov 17 - 06:00 AM
Iains 08 Nov 17 - 06:05 AM
Raggytash 08 Nov 17 - 06:07 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Nov 17 - 06:10 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Nov 17 - 06:25 AM
Stu 08 Nov 17 - 06:31 AM
Raggytash 08 Nov 17 - 06:35 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM
Iains 08 Nov 17 - 06:54 AM
DMcG 08 Nov 17 - 07:03 AM
Raggytash 08 Nov 17 - 07:11 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Nov 17 - 07:52 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 08:21 AM
Iains 08 Nov 17 - 09:56 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Nov 17 - 10:13 AM
Raggytash 08 Nov 17 - 10:28 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Nov 17 - 10:43 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 11:11 AM
Raggytash 08 Nov 17 - 11:35 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 02:39 PM
DMcG 08 Nov 17 - 02:44 PM
Donuel 08 Nov 17 - 04:25 PM
Raggytash 08 Nov 17 - 04:31 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 05:55 PM
DMcG 08 Nov 17 - 06:18 PM
bobad 08 Nov 17 - 06:42 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 07:41 PM
bobad 08 Nov 17 - 07:52 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 07:58 PM
bobad 08 Nov 17 - 08:07 PM
bobad 08 Nov 17 - 08:25 PM
Greg F. 08 Nov 17 - 08:42 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 08:46 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 08:56 PM
Nigel Parsons 09 Nov 17 - 03:58 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Nov 17 - 04:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Nov 17 - 04:16 AM
akenaton 09 Nov 17 - 04:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Nov 17 - 05:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Nov 17 - 05:56 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Nov 17 - 06:05 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Nov 17 - 06:28 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Nov 17 - 08:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Nov 17 - 09:19 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Nov 17 - 09:19 AM
Stu 09 Nov 17 - 12:05 PM
akenaton 09 Nov 17 - 12:29 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Nov 17 - 01:33 PM
Iains 10 Nov 17 - 05:52 AM
Raggytash 10 Nov 17 - 06:13 AM
Stu 10 Nov 17 - 06:15 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM
Iains 10 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM
Raggytash 10 Nov 17 - 06:28 AM
DMcG 10 Nov 17 - 07:09 AM
Stu 10 Nov 17 - 08:16 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Nov 17 - 05:17 AM
DMcG 11 Nov 17 - 05:33 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Nov 17 - 07:35 AM
Stu 11 Nov 17 - 07:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 17 - 03:06 PM
Raggytash 11 Nov 17 - 05:00 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Nov 17 - 05:43 PM
Raggytash 11 Nov 17 - 05:53 PM
Raggytash 11 Nov 17 - 05:57 PM
Nigel Parsons 11 Nov 17 - 07:47 PM
Nigel Parsons 11 Nov 17 - 07:55 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Nov 17 - 08:11 PM
DMcG 12 Nov 17 - 02:45 AM
DMcG 12 Nov 17 - 02:54 AM
DMcG 12 Nov 17 - 03:18 AM
akenaton 12 Nov 17 - 03:58 AM
akenaton 12 Nov 17 - 04:10 AM
DMcG 12 Nov 17 - 04:30 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Nov 17 - 07:26 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Nov 17 - 07:31 AM
DMcG 12 Nov 17 - 07:38 AM
Backwoodsman 12 Nov 17 - 08:30 AM
Stanron 12 Nov 17 - 03:05 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Nov 17 - 04:04 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Nov 17 - 04:49 PM
Iains 12 Nov 17 - 04:54 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Nov 17 - 05:15 PM
Stanron 12 Nov 17 - 05:26 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Nov 17 - 05:33 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Nov 17 - 05:43 PM
Stanron 12 Nov 17 - 06:01 PM
DMcG 12 Nov 17 - 06:44 PM
Stanron 12 Nov 17 - 07:25 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Nov 17 - 08:14 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Nov 17 - 02:06 AM
DMcG 13 Nov 17 - 02:32 AM
Backwoodsman 13 Nov 17 - 02:36 AM
Thompson 13 Nov 17 - 02:40 AM
Backwoodsman 13 Nov 17 - 04:15 AM
Iains 13 Nov 17 - 04:35 AM
Iains 13 Nov 17 - 04:42 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Nov 17 - 04:56 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Nov 17 - 04:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Nov 17 - 05:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 17 - 06:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 17 - 06:21 AM
Raggytash 13 Nov 17 - 06:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 17 - 06:26 AM
Raggytash 13 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM
Iains 13 Nov 17 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 17 - 07:11 AM
bobad 13 Nov 17 - 07:12 AM
Raggytash 13 Nov 17 - 07:20 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Nov 17 - 07:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 17 - 08:20 AM
Raggytash 13 Nov 17 - 08:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 17 - 09:15 AM
Raggytash 13 Nov 17 - 09:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 17 - 09:26 AM
Raggytash 13 Nov 17 - 10:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 17 - 11:37 AM
Raggytash 13 Nov 17 - 11:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Nov 17 - 11:52 AM
Stu 13 Nov 17 - 11:54 AM
DMcG 13 Nov 17 - 12:14 PM
akenaton 13 Nov 17 - 05:54 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Nov 17 - 06:40 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Nov 17 - 06:44 PM
Raggytash 13 Nov 17 - 09:06 PM
DMcG 14 Nov 17 - 02:17 AM
Nigel Parsons 14 Nov 17 - 03:39 AM
Stu 14 Nov 17 - 03:42 AM
akenaton 14 Nov 17 - 03:45 AM
akenaton 14 Nov 17 - 03:47 AM
akenaton 14 Nov 17 - 04:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 17 - 04:09 AM
DMcG 14 Nov 17 - 04:23 AM
Stu 14 Nov 17 - 04:37 AM
akenaton 14 Nov 17 - 04:52 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Nov 17 - 05:28 AM
akenaton 14 Nov 17 - 05:37 AM
akenaton 14 Nov 17 - 06:05 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Nov 17 - 06:25 AM
Stu 14 Nov 17 - 06:26 AM
Stu 14 Nov 17 - 08:35 AM
Greg F. 14 Nov 17 - 08:54 AM
akenaton 14 Nov 17 - 12:04 PM
Iains 14 Nov 17 - 12:15 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Nov 17 - 12:51 PM
akenaton 14 Nov 17 - 12:58 PM
Iains 14 Nov 17 - 01:29 PM
Stu 14 Nov 17 - 02:10 PM
Nigel Parsons 15 Nov 17 - 04:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Nov 17 - 04:22 AM
Nigel Parsons 15 Nov 17 - 04:38 AM
DMcG 15 Nov 17 - 04:43 AM
Nigel Parsons 15 Nov 17 - 05:01 AM
DMcG 15 Nov 17 - 05:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Nov 17 - 05:52 AM
Iains 15 Nov 17 - 06:05 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Nov 17 - 06:15 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Nov 17 - 06:21 AM
Stu 15 Nov 17 - 07:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Nov 17 - 08:00 AM
akenaton 15 Nov 17 - 08:31 AM
Stu 15 Nov 17 - 08:40 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Nov 17 - 10:34 AM
Greg F. 15 Nov 17 - 11:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 17 - 12:09 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Nov 17 - 01:52 PM
DMcG 15 Nov 17 - 04:14 PM
Stu 16 Nov 17 - 03:40 AM
DMcG 16 Nov 17 - 03:59 AM
DMcG 16 Nov 17 - 04:18 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Nov 17 - 04:36 AM
DMcG 16 Nov 17 - 05:15 AM
Iains 16 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM
Stu 16 Nov 17 - 05:39 AM
DMcG 16 Nov 17 - 05:53 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Nov 17 - 06:29 AM
DMcG 16 Nov 17 - 07:05 AM
Stu 16 Nov 17 - 09:44 AM
Greg F. 16 Nov 17 - 10:30 AM
Backwoodsman 16 Nov 17 - 10:57 AM
Iains 16 Nov 17 - 11:56 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Nov 17 - 11:58 AM
Iains 16 Nov 17 - 12:19 PM
Greg F. 16 Nov 17 - 01:33 PM
akenaton 16 Nov 17 - 04:49 PM
DMcG 17 Nov 17 - 01:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 Nov 17 - 03:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Nov 17 - 05:24 AM
Stu 17 Nov 17 - 06:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Nov 17 - 06:15 AM
Stu 17 Nov 17 - 07:11 AM
DMcG 17 Nov 17 - 07:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Nov 17 - 08:02 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Nov 17 - 01:21 PM
Stu 17 Nov 17 - 02:36 PM
Raggytash 17 Nov 17 - 02:58 PM
Iains 17 Nov 17 - 02:59 PM
DMcG 18 Nov 17 - 03:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 17 - 04:29 AM
Stu 18 Nov 17 - 06:57 AM
Stu 18 Nov 17 - 08:25 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Nov 17 - 02:27 PM
DMcG 18 Nov 17 - 03:33 PM
Nigel Parsons 18 Nov 17 - 03:51 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Nov 17 - 03:58 PM
DMcG 18 Nov 17 - 04:27 PM
Iains 19 Nov 17 - 03:21 AM
Stu 19 Nov 17 - 04:32 AM
DMcG 19 Nov 17 - 04:57 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 17 - 06:34 AM
Stu 19 Nov 17 - 06:51 AM
DMcG 19 Nov 17 - 06:55 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 17 - 07:12 AM
DMcG 19 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 17 - 07:43 AM
Stu 19 Nov 17 - 07:56 AM
DMcG 19 Nov 17 - 08:01 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 17 - 08:53 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Nov 17 - 08:54 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 17 - 09:20 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Nov 17 - 01:40 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 17 - 01:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Nov 17 - 02:45 PM
Nigel Parsons 19 Nov 17 - 02:53 PM
Backwoodsman 19 Nov 17 - 03:57 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 17 - 06:06 PM
DMcG 19 Nov 17 - 06:23 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 17 - 06:57 PM
Nigel Parsons 19 Nov 17 - 07:31 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 17 - 07:48 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Nov 17 - 04:06 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Nov 17 - 05:02 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Nov 17 - 05:03 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Nov 17 - 05:13 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Nov 17 - 05:13 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Nov 17 - 05:23 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM
DMcG 20 Nov 17 - 06:04 AM
DMcG 20 Nov 17 - 06:06 AM
DMcG 20 Nov 17 - 06:29 AM
Stu 20 Nov 17 - 06:37 AM
DMcG 20 Nov 17 - 06:45 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Nov 17 - 06:48 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Nov 17 - 06:49 AM
DMcG 20 Nov 17 - 06:57 AM
DMcG 20 Nov 17 - 06:58 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Nov 17 - 07:06 AM
Iains 20 Nov 17 - 09:21 AM
Stu 20 Nov 17 - 10:24 AM
Iains 20 Nov 17 - 10:43 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Nov 17 - 10:56 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Nov 17 - 11:54 AM
DMcG 20 Nov 17 - 11:59 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Nov 17 - 12:08 PM
Stu 20 Nov 17 - 02:03 PM
Iains 20 Nov 17 - 03:14 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Nov 17 - 03:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Nov 17 - 03:20 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Nov 17 - 03:27 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Nov 17 - 03:28 PM
DMcG 20 Nov 17 - 03:42 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 17 - 04:54 AM
Stu 21 Nov 17 - 09:28 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Nov 17 - 10:18 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Nov 17 - 07:32 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 17 - 08:54 PM
DMcG 22 Nov 17 - 01:36 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 17 - 05:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Nov 17 - 05:27 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM
Stu 22 Nov 17 - 06:13 AM
Raggytash 22 Nov 17 - 11:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Nov 17 - 11:13 AM
Greg F. 22 Nov 17 - 11:23 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 17 - 11:46 AM
Stu 22 Nov 17 - 12:31 PM
DMcG 22 Nov 17 - 12:46 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Nov 17 - 01:19 PM
Greg F. 22 Nov 17 - 03:58 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 17 - 08:35 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Nov 17 - 01:59 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Nov 17 - 05:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Nov 17 - 06:23 AM
DMcG 23 Nov 17 - 07:41 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Nov 17 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Nov 17 - 08:19 AM
Iains 23 Nov 17 - 08:36 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Nov 17 - 08:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Nov 17 - 09:26 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Nov 17 - 09:36 AM
Iains 23 Nov 17 - 09:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Nov 17 - 10:05 AM
Stanron 23 Nov 17 - 10:13 AM
Stu 23 Nov 17 - 10:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Nov 17 - 10:19 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Nov 17 - 10:20 AM
Iains 23 Nov 17 - 10:54 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Nov 17 - 10:54 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Nov 17 - 10:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Nov 17 - 11:01 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Nov 17 - 11:14 AM
Iains 23 Nov 17 - 11:52 AM
Stu 23 Nov 17 - 12:11 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Nov 17 - 12:53 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Nov 17 - 01:16 PM
DMcG 23 Nov 17 - 01:20 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Nov 17 - 01:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Nov 17 - 01:43 PM
Iains 23 Nov 17 - 01:49 PM
Stu 23 Nov 17 - 02:05 PM
Raggytash 23 Nov 17 - 02:15 PM
DMcG 23 Nov 17 - 02:16 PM
Stu 23 Nov 17 - 02:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Nov 17 - 05:37 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Nov 17 - 05:42 PM
Iains 24 Nov 17 - 05:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Nov 17 - 05:28 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 06:12 AM
Stu 24 Nov 17 - 07:09 AM
Iains 24 Nov 17 - 07:13 AM
DMcG 24 Nov 17 - 08:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Nov 17 - 08:58 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 09:46 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 09:47 AM
Stu 24 Nov 17 - 09:54 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 10:00 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 10:04 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 10:58 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Nov 17 - 11:16 AM
DMcG 24 Nov 17 - 11:33 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Nov 17 - 11:53 AM
Raggytash 24 Nov 17 - 11:56 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 12:02 PM
Iains 24 Nov 17 - 12:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Nov 17 - 12:30 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Nov 17 - 12:38 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 12:42 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 12:51 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 12:56 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Nov 17 - 01:09 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Nov 17 - 01:14 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 01:16 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 01:20 PM
Raggytash 24 Nov 17 - 01:37 PM
Raggytash 24 Nov 17 - 01:39 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 01:44 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 01:49 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 01:56 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 02:11 PM
Iains 24 Nov 17 - 02:20 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Nov 17 - 02:22 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Nov 17 - 02:27 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 02:38 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 02:46 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Nov 17 - 03:10 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Nov 17 - 03:14 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 03:23 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Nov 17 - 04:08 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 04:17 PM
DMcG 24 Nov 17 - 04:35 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 05:37 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 04:03 AM
Iains 25 Nov 17 - 04:33 AM
Iains 25 Nov 17 - 04:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 17 - 04:59 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 05:27 AM
DMcG 25 Nov 17 - 05:35 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Nov 17 - 05:39 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Nov 17 - 05:42 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Nov 17 - 05:56 AM
DMcG 25 Nov 17 - 06:02 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 17 - 06:24 AM
DMcG 25 Nov 17 - 06:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 17 - 06:37 AM
DMcG 25 Nov 17 - 06:48 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 07:13 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 17 - 07:15 AM
DMcG 25 Nov 17 - 07:38 AM
DMcG 25 Nov 17 - 07:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 17 - 07:53 AM
DMcG 25 Nov 17 - 07:58 AM
Stu 25 Nov 17 - 08:20 AM
Stu 25 Nov 17 - 08:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 17 - 10:04 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 17 - 10:20 AM
DMcG 25 Nov 17 - 10:23 AM
Iains 25 Nov 17 - 10:30 AM
DMcG 25 Nov 17 - 10:41 AM
DMcG 25 Nov 17 - 10:44 AM
Raggytash 25 Nov 17 - 11:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 17 - 11:20 AM
Raggytash 25 Nov 17 - 11:59 AM
Greg F. 25 Nov 17 - 12:13 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 17 - 12:19 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 12:57 PM
Iains 25 Nov 17 - 01:18 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 01:32 PM
Iains 25 Nov 17 - 02:17 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 02:42 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 17 - 03:31 PM
Backwoodsman 25 Nov 17 - 04:04 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 17 - 07:38 PM
Greg F. 25 Nov 17 - 08:22 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 17 - 08:34 PM
DMcG 26 Nov 17 - 03:07 AM
Iains 26 Nov 17 - 03:26 AM
Stu 26 Nov 17 - 04:09 AM
DMcG 26 Nov 17 - 04:14 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Nov 17 - 04:19 AM
DMcG 26 Nov 17 - 04:35 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Nov 17 - 05:39 AM
Iains 26 Nov 17 - 08:11 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 08:54 AM
DMcG 26 Nov 17 - 08:56 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Nov 17 - 09:06 AM
Iains 26 Nov 17 - 09:11 AM
DMcG 26 Nov 17 - 09:40 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 10:00 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 10:01 AM
DMcG 26 Nov 17 - 10:03 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Nov 17 - 10:32 AM
Greg F. 26 Nov 17 - 11:20 AM
Iains 26 Nov 17 - 12:12 PM
Greg F. 26 Nov 17 - 12:35 PM
Iains 26 Nov 17 - 12:50 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 12:57 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 01:10 PM
Backwoodsman 26 Nov 17 - 01:48 PM
Iains 26 Nov 17 - 02:02 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Nov 17 - 02:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 02:49 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Nov 17 - 03:04 PM
Iains 26 Nov 17 - 04:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Nov 17 - 05:52 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 06:04 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Nov 17 - 07:22 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 07:32 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Nov 17 - 07:46 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 07:48 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 07:52 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 07:54 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Nov 17 - 08:00 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 08:16 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 08:19 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Nov 17 - 08:20 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 08:20 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Nov 17 - 08:23 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 08:26 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Nov 17 - 08:34 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 08:40 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 08:43 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Nov 17 - 09:01 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Nov 17 - 09:03 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 17 - 09:10 PM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 02:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Nov 17 - 03:33 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Nov 17 - 03:39 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 03:41 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Nov 17 - 03:44 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 17 - 03:48 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Nov 17 - 04:21 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Nov 17 - 04:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 04:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 04:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 04:47 AM
Iains 27 Nov 17 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 04:56 AM
Stu 27 Nov 17 - 05:02 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 05:02 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Nov 17 - 05:04 AM
Stu 27 Nov 17 - 05:04 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Nov 17 - 05:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Nov 17 - 05:33 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 05:44 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Nov 17 - 05:45 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Nov 17 - 05:46 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 05:47 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Nov 17 - 06:20 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM
Stu 27 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 17 - 07:37 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Nov 17 - 07:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 07:52 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Nov 17 - 07:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 07:53 AM
Stu 27 Nov 17 - 07:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 07:58 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 07:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 08:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 08:09 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 08:14 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Nov 17 - 08:20 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 08:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 08:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 08:51 AM
Jim Martin 27 Nov 17 - 09:00 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Nov 17 - 09:05 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 09:07 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 09:37 AM
Stu 27 Nov 17 - 09:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 09:58 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Nov 17 - 09:58 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 10:24 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 17 - 10:27 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Nov 17 - 11:09 AM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 11:10 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Nov 17 - 11:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 12:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Nov 17 - 12:22 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Nov 17 - 01:22 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Nov 17 - 01:40 PM
Greg F. 27 Nov 17 - 01:51 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Nov 17 - 01:55 PM
Donuel 27 Nov 17 - 03:27 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Nov 17 - 03:43 PM
DMcG 27 Nov 17 - 03:45 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Nov 17 - 03:47 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 17 - 04:58 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 17 - 05:09 PM
Donuel 27 Nov 17 - 05:19 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 17 - 05:58 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Nov 17 - 07:38 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Nov 17 - 02:53 AM
Stu 28 Nov 17 - 03:00 AM
Nigel Parsons 28 Nov 17 - 03:43 AM
Nigel Parsons 28 Nov 17 - 03:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 17 - 04:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 17 - 04:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Nov 17 - 04:42 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Nov 17 - 04:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 17 - 05:11 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Nov 17 - 05:56 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 17 - 06:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 17 - 06:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 17 - 06:12 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 17 - 06:23 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Nov 17 - 06:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 17 - 06:28 AM
Iains 28 Nov 17 - 06:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 28 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM
Stu 28 Nov 17 - 06:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 17 - 06:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Nov 17 - 06:54 AM
Stu 28 Nov 17 - 07:03 AM
Iains 28 Nov 17 - 07:09 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Nov 17 - 07:22 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 17 - 07:25 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Nov 17 - 07:27 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 17 - 07:28 AM
DMcG 28 Nov 17 - 07:30 AM
Nigel Parsons 28 Nov 17 - 07:44 AM
Nigel Parsons 28 Nov 17 - 07:48 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 17 - 07:56 AM
DMcG 28 Nov 17 - 08:04 AM
Stu 28 Nov 17 - 08:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 17 - 09:08 AM
DMcG 28 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM
Greg F. 28 Nov 17 - 09:36 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Nov 17 - 09:57 AM
Nigel Parsons 28 Nov 17 - 10:00 AM
Raggytash 28 Nov 17 - 10:48 AM
Iains 28 Nov 17 - 11:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 17 - 12:25 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 17 - 12:36 PM
Iains 28 Nov 17 - 12:55 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Nov 17 - 01:21 PM
DMcG 28 Nov 17 - 02:04 PM
Iains 28 Nov 17 - 03:36 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 17 - 05:08 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 17 - 05:10 PM
Greg F. 28 Nov 17 - 06:31 PM
bobad 28 Nov 17 - 06:36 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 17 - 06:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Nov 17 - 04:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Nov 17 - 05:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Nov 17 - 05:15 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Nov 17 - 05:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Nov 17 - 05:35 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Nov 17 - 05:46 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Nov 17 - 06:25 AM
DMcG 29 Nov 17 - 06:27 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Nov 17 - 06:31 AM
DMcG 29 Nov 17 - 06:31 AM
bobad 29 Nov 17 - 08:23 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Nov 17 - 08:30 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Nov 17 - 08:39 AM
Iains 29 Nov 17 - 08:47 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Nov 17 - 08:56 AM
bobad 29 Nov 17 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Nov 17 - 10:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Nov 17 - 10:09 AM
bobad 29 Nov 17 - 10:18 AM
DMcG 29 Nov 17 - 10:24 AM
Greg F. 29 Nov 17 - 10:26 AM
DMcG 29 Nov 17 - 10:28 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Nov 17 - 10:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Nov 17 - 10:56 AM
Raggytash 29 Nov 17 - 11:06 AM
bobad 29 Nov 17 - 11:06 AM
Iains 29 Nov 17 - 12:02 PM
DMcG 29 Nov 17 - 01:08 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Nov 17 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Nov 17 - 01:23 PM
DMcG 29 Nov 17 - 01:37 PM
Iains 29 Nov 17 - 01:39 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Nov 17 - 01:45 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Nov 17 - 01:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Nov 17 - 01:57 PM
Iains 29 Nov 17 - 02:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Nov 17 - 02:20 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Nov 17 - 03:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Nov 17 - 04:41 PM
Iains 29 Nov 17 - 05:07 PM
Greg F. 29 Nov 17 - 05:24 PM
Raggytash 29 Nov 17 - 05:38 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Nov 17 - 05:58 PM
Iains 29 Nov 17 - 06:06 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Nov 17 - 06:11 PM
bobad 29 Nov 17 - 06:25 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Nov 17 - 08:17 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Nov 17 - 03:17 AM
Iains 30 Nov 17 - 03:39 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Nov 17 - 03:48 AM
Iains 30 Nov 17 - 03:48 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Nov 17 - 03:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Nov 17 - 04:11 AM
Nigel Parsons 30 Nov 17 - 04:34 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Nov 17 - 05:24 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Nov 17 - 05:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Nov 17 - 05:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 30 Nov 17 - 05:30 AM
Iains 30 Nov 17 - 05:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Nov 17 - 06:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM
Donuel 30 Nov 17 - 06:28 AM
Iains 30 Nov 17 - 06:29 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Nov 17 - 06:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Nov 17 - 06:45 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Nov 17 - 06:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Nov 17 - 08:09 AM
Greg F. 30 Nov 17 - 08:44 AM
Nigel Parsons 30 Nov 17 - 09:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Nov 17 - 09:48 AM
Nigel Parsons 30 Nov 17 - 09:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Nov 17 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Nov 17 - 10:09 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Nov 17 - 10:10 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Nov 17 - 10:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Nov 17 - 10:32 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Nov 17 - 11:01 AM
Iains 30 Nov 17 - 12:42 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Nov 17 - 01:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Nov 17 - 01:52 PM
Iains 30 Nov 17 - 02:11 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Nov 17 - 02:48 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Nov 17 - 02:55 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Nov 17 - 03:00 PM
DMcG 01 Dec 17 - 02:22 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Dec 17 - 03:17 AM
DMcG 01 Dec 17 - 03:19 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Dec 17 - 03:36 AM
DMcG 01 Dec 17 - 03:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Dec 17 - 04:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Dec 17 - 04:15 AM
DMcG 01 Dec 17 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Dec 17 - 04:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Dec 17 - 04:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Dec 17 - 04:31 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Dec 17 - 04:32 AM
DMcG 01 Dec 17 - 04:32 AM
DMcG 01 Dec 17 - 05:10 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Dec 17 - 05:44 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Dec 17 - 05:57 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Dec 17 - 06:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Dec 17 - 06:45 AM
DMcG 01 Dec 17 - 06:54 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Dec 17 - 06:55 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Dec 17 - 06:56 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Dec 17 - 06:59 AM
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Subject: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:07 AM

Bombardier: May 'bitterly disappointed' as US tariff puts jobs at risk


Here in the UK we're getting a little taste of life after we've left the EU following El Trumpo's decision to slap a 219% tariff on Bombardier, so jeopardising 4,000 jobs in the North of Ireland. More to the point, the government actually played this deal straight down the line, landed it fairly and squarely but still ordinary working people might suffer because of the whim of a fat orange idiot. Without influence as part of the worlds largest trading block, we're just back to being a small island with an over-inflated opinion of itself and at the mercy of the likes of Trump.

This is our world now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:10 AM

We are still full members of the EU so this dispute has nothing to do with Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:26 AM

We won't have the EU as an alternative market, that's what it's got to do with it - if there's a comparable product from an EU manufacturer, that's what EU airlines will buy.

The point of Brexit is to make the UK a dependency of the US, and this tariff shows how the US treats its dependencies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:44 AM

"The point of Brexit is to make the UK a dependency of the US, and this tariff shows how the US treats its dependencies"

Now where the hell did that come from? I thought and believe that the point of Brexit was to open up avenues to the developing world, of course a positive trade deal with the US would be great and in the interests of both countries.
There are quite a few points to Brexit, not least the control of how many people come here and the necessity to train our own people when the parasitic economic policy of "Free movement" is abandoned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:54 AM

I thought and believe that the point of Brexit was to open up avenues to the developing world, of course a positive trade deal with the US would be great and in the interests of both countries.

You thought wrong. The point of it was to retain the tax fiddles being used by the mega-rich (threatened after 2019 by EU tax harmonization rules) and sneak in a Nazi-style enabling law to make a wholesale bonfire of all the progressive legislation created in the last 200 years.

No new trade deal with non-EU countries is on the horizon, and several countries (Australia, |Japan, New Zealand for three) have recently snubbed the UK to make deals with the EU instead. If the US was interested in a "positive trade deal" this prohibitive tariff wouldn't have been imposed. They're treating the UK as another Honduras.

But then you already knew that. A fascist banana republic isn't likely to go after people torturing dogs for money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 08:35 AM

A loss of jobs in UK if this happens, but let's just add a few facts.
Bombardier Transportation is the rail equipment division of the Canadian firm Bombardier Inc. Its headquarters are in Berlin.

It would be just as easy for Canada or Germany to have prevented this work being done in UK. And, the withdrawal may be America 'getting at' UK, or Germany, or Canada.

And, despite the opening comment, this is happening while we are part of the EU trading bloc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 08:46 AM

Don't look so sad, I know it's over. But life goes on, and this old world will keep on turning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 09:16 AM

"Don't look so sad, I know it's over."
A littl smug and ostrich like when you consider there are 900,000 Brits living nd working in Europe who now stand to sent packing - at least 30,000 of them are drawing dole
Bombardier is merely a tiny tip of a very large iceberg
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 09:40 AM

I know it's happening whilst we're still part of the EU. Doh.

That is not the point. The point is we will be vulnerable to these sort of punitive measures from our new trading partners because as a lone country outside of the EU we have little clout.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Ed.
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 10:01 AM

You might care to read this article, Nigel...

Brexiters are being naive over US trade


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 10:01 AM

When Bush put up the steel tariffs threatening UK jobs the WTO ruled against them the US totally ignored the ruling (clue: they don't care). Then the EU came in to back us up, threatened tariffs on US imports and hey presto! Bush backed down.

This collective bargaining is gone, and expecting the EU to back us up now when our incompetent government is flailing around in the Brexit negations and royally pissing johnny foreigner off, is either being a tad naive or wilfully ignorant.

Nope, we've taken back control and are on our own. Triffic, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 10:54 AM

From: Ed. - PM
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 10:01 AM
You might care to read this article, Nigel...
Brexiters are being naïve over US trade


Okay, I've read that.
It seems this is triggered because of disputes between USA & Canada (something I suggested above).
It is also clear that the arguments about relative market size are exactly the same ones that those in favour of Brexit have been making about the future EU/UK trade position.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 11:09 AM

"But then you already knew that. A fascist banana republic isn't likely to go after people torturing dogs for money."


Would the moderators show just how unbiased they are by deleting this disgraceful slur.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 11:38 AM

"how unbiased they are by deleting this disgraceful slur."
You have hurled every insult imaginable at people who disagree with you - your lates offering in defence of a church that has systematically covered facilitated child rape is that, because I (from a Catholic family surrounded by Catholic neighbours) hate Catholics and persecute their religion
I have no intention of taking this any further but if you can't take it, don't dish it out
End of story
Any chance you're going to respond to the likely influx if British refugees from Europe Nigel?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 11:59 AM

Jim you may be able to countenance lying, but I am not. I do not "torture dogs for money" or for any other reason. Neither do I know any greyhound people who do so, these animals are extremely valuable and lovable, the sport is extremely well regulate.
Mr Campin like most of the Anti Greyhound Racing brigade is talking through his arse.

This topic has nothing to do with the thread, but as an owner and trainer, I have been obliged to defend myself against the slur.

Mod....please delete this after dealing with Mr Campin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 12:15 PM

Look, could you two get a room please? Or at least take your lover's spat elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 12:17 PM

"Look, could you two get a room please? Or at least take your lover's spat elsewhere."
I was intending to leave this there Stu - please don't prolong it
Jim Carrol


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 12:29 PM

"I was intending to leave this there Stu - please don't prolong it"

Get stuffed. You're here causing trouble again, ignoring the OP and perpetuating a feud and you have the cheek to say I'M prolonging it?


Shut the fucking thread please. This idiocy is proving a real bind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 01:07 PM

Nah, leave it open. I want to be optimistic. There will be no brexit. I know this because the Daily Mail said that May is engineering an abandonment of brexit. I hasten to add that I didn't buy the paper. I saw it in a rack in a shop with the headline showing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 01:22 PM

Disgraceful personal attack on Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 01:28 PM

Looks like Corbyn is making the running, what with a Tory Cabinet led by an eejit at each others throats and a vision of Britain's trade and jobs going down the pan
All we need now is Trump threatening to send in the marines
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 02:22 PM

PM received from Jim:

"What the fuck are you doing Stu
Your's and Backwoodsman's abusive behaviour got the last thread closed -
don't do the same to this one - unless this is your intention"

My abusive behaviour? Seriously? You and the others should take a long hard look at yourself and what you are doing to this forum with your constant bickering and sniping at each other. Your insults aren't even witty or amusing, just mean and mealy mouthed.

I'm all for robust debate, but these puerile running arguments and insulting posts are well beyond the pale. Every thread is wrecked by you and your mates and any below the line debate is stifled by your collective belligerence.

This is so wearying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 02:57 PM

"What the fuck are you doing Stu
Your's and Backwoodsman's abusive behaviour got the last thread closed -
don't do the same to this one - unless this is your intention""
I deliberately PM's that dso it wouldn't fuck up this thread
That now seems to be your intention - I suppose a passing mod will acquiesce to your demands and punish us all for your now unacceptable behaviour rather than ask you to desist
Can't do much about that, I suppose
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 03:22 PM

Right back to the title. In the last 15 months the pound has fallen against the euro from 1.31 to 1.13. A drop of over 13%. It has also fallen against the Dollar. These have caused a rise in almost everything we purchase, not only in International trade but on the shelves at the supermarket and at the petrol pumps. These rises affect everyone irrespective of their income. People with surplus can carry these rises, people on the breadline struggle ....... or get into debt.

Fair, reasonable .......... I think not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 04:39 PM

Don't bloody do that, Stu, no matter how cross you get. If you find a private message offensive you go to the mods, not go public.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 04:44 PM

That's exactly right, Raggytash. And the gvt and the private sector can't afford to pay the wages that anywhere near keep up with the ensuing inflation. We talk about an impending brexit disaster. It's not impending any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 05:08 PM

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 05:24 PM

Twat.😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 05:29 PM

"If you find a private message offensive you go to the mods, not go public."

I take your point Steve and perhaps you're right, I acted impetuously as I was so utterly pissed of with the Jim/Ake show spilling onto this thread for no reason at all. But... I wouldn't go to the mods as I see little reason why they should be bothered with this playground crap; they have a difficult enough job as it is.

I don't mind the combative and sometimes harsh discussions; it's the way we debate in the UK. What I object to is the constant dragging of unconnected information into these threads as a way of cheap point scoring during the pursuit of vendettas. It's rude, ignorant and not a little sad. That bystanders have to egg the protagonists on is equally depressing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 06:02 PM

Forget it, everyone is fallible.

I was thinking that if Ake's initial post was 100% correct you all would be pleased as punch and rolling in clover. do you think?
But alas reality wakes and the dream fades.

Over here Twitler may screw up trade with China so bad that Walmart might start to disappear and prices will soar erasing any tax cut.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 06:06 PM

I do get all that, Stu, and have been incensed enough to contemplate doing it myself. It's a right bugger, but if, in extremis, you feel the need to go public with a PM, it's best to invite the silly bastard who sent it you to retract, then give 'em an ultimatum...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 06:21 PM

Don't understand your remark concerning my IP Don? I stand by that post in its entirety.
The point of Brexit is to work our way out to all the economic problems which afflict us...to do so, we need the contribution of all our people and the markets which WE chose.....the parasitical reliance on immigrant labour is unsustainable in the long term. Alongside this new marketing strategy, we also need to urgently reform the education system and instigate proper training schemes for our people.
Party politics will never provide this....too many ideological stoppers. We need to work together, business and labour, to make a success of this venture.

If ideological obstructions cause us to fail our grandchildren will regard us as stupid and selfish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:02 PM

Expelling parasitical alien labor has brought the US to a point that 1/3 to half our produce goes unpicked and rots in the field or trees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 08:15 PM

"This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,"
A speech the Bard put in the mouth of one of England's most difunctional kings who screwed his way through every woman he could get his hands on, was totally incapable of controlling the plots against him mainly instigated by his two sons, Richard and John who were scrabbling for control of the throne, and who was forced to imprison his wife, Eleanor (known as 'the democratic drawbridge who went down for everybody') in a tower for 360 days of the year to stop her servicing all the male members of his court and poisoning his lovers
Not the greatest of recommendations Iains, but probably a pretty fair assessment of Britain after Brexit.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 10:46 PM

Twat.😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Ed.
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 11:52 PM

A speech the Bard put in the mouth of one of England's most difunctional kings

You appear to be a little confused, Jim. Iains posted a quote from Richard II, but you're burbling, frothy mouthed, about Henry II...

May I also respectfully suggest that you look a little further than 'The Lion in Winter' for historical insights?

By the way, the word you were looking for is dysfunctional.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 01:45 AM

Don, it is not the immigrant labour which is "parasitical", but the system which uses it, above its obligations to the young people of the UK.
The EU makes the rules we implement them........not for long!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:05 AM

"May I also respectfully suggest that you look a little further than 'The Lion in Winter' for historical insights?"
Sorry - confusing my Kigs and The lion in Winter didn't really come into it - it came from my researching the ballads, Queen Eleanor's Confession and Fair Rosamond and mixing the names up.
Thanks fotr the heads up
"Twat." (also "mindless stwats on a recently closed thread)
Smiley aside Iains, it's gratuitous insultinglike this, schoolyard bullying and hit-'n-run postings that have dragged some of these discussion to gutter level and have got threads closed
I suggest that steering clear of such childish behaviour and replacing it with adult argument might just raise it back to the level it used to be
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:17 AM

Jim...I didn't get the last thread closed, it was you bunch of OCD Spunktrumpets who did that, with your non-stop bickering, your personal vendettas, your stupid, stupid, STUPID childish behaviour. Exactly as you've got dozens of other threads closed by your boorish behaviour. By your constant, obsessive fighting, you mob abuse right of the few remaining decent, normal people who have the fortitude to stick around, to enjoy intelligent, meaningful discussion. You're a disgrace.

If you crowd insist on behaving like childish twats, spitting dummies out, and throwing your teddies out of the pram on every thread you infect, don't complain when sane, normal, adults call you out on it. You are not clever people, you may think you are, but in the eyes of the many who have given up on this forum, you are morons.

Now...carry on, idiots, you'll have this thread closed soon.

Ten...
Nine...
Eight...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:29 AM

Jimmie I copied your little packmate shaw's insult to me just to watch your entirely predictable behaviour. You and your wannabe bullies apparently think you have carte blanche to post whatever you like, yet act like stuck pigs when the tables are turned. Did you censure the idiot shaw for his gratuitous insult above? One law for the pack and one for the rest of us is it?
When you cannot reciprocate in the discussion with well constructed argument you resort to insult-presumably to make all those people embarrassing you go away, by having the thread closed. What a silly little man you are!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:52 AM

"Jim...I didn't get the last thread closed,"
One of the last postings on the thread was your gratuitous "mindless twats" - a sort of slightly more intelligent version of "OCD Spunktrumpets"
I get tired of the slagging off by people like you, Ake and Teribus who reduce arguments to this level
Some of these subjects are complex and can't be dealt with superficially
I argue about the things I care about and I take these arguments to the lengths I believe they merit
I occasionally overstate my case, but I don't think I am gratuitously insulting - I have certainly never sunk to the level of your last depressing posting.
This forum is regularly being used as a platform for racism and hatred by a few people
There used to be a couple of Muslims at one time - there aren't now, I would hate to be gay and receive the waves of hatred and contempt of Akes diatribes - I know of intelligent Irish friends who washed their hands of this forum after some of the racism that was put up lst year.
I enjoy being here and I benefit greatly from much of the information that is put up - the generosity of some members still knocks me over
You talk of "many" the way you did of "people are fed up with you mindless twats" as if you had been elected spokesman
You like me and everybody else, speak only for ourselves
I argue passionately sometimes, and when I do, I put up as much information as I think necessary (it has often been complained that I put too much up)
That, as far as I am concerned, is what debating is about.
I wanted to end my comment on Ake's complaint about being slandered and move on - you and Stu have blown it up into a major altercation and your last posting has dragged it right down to schoolyard level
If this thread is closed, it is that which will have turned the key
Grow up and start behaving like adults
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:54 AM

"Jimmie I copied your little packmate shaw's"
There - now you've gone and woken up the child
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 04:11 AM

You ain't seen nuttin yet!
How many Grant-funded University Projects are going to have to be squandered, or bolstered from the windfalls Brexit?
How many air traffic regulation will have to be enshrined in new laws? Fancy a flight anyone?

Brexit is a change, and any change costs money. How many years do we expect it will take till pay-back?
Anyone who can put a figure on that is lying, knowingly. By the time their notional pay-back is past (still un-audited) the goal posts will have been moved - BRIC by BRIC (to mix meta-fours).
Brexit is a belief system, like all other religions. You worship or you doubt, (except in this case have it thrust down yer throat).


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 04:15 AM

I suspect if the EU and Spain get too heavy handed with Catalonia and continue to thwart their thirst for Independence then post brexit will escalate to post EU. spanish legal block on Independence referendum for Catalonia


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 04:48 AM

From: Mr Red - PM
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 04:11 AM

Brexit is a change, and any change costs money. How many years do we expect it will take till pay-back?
Anyone who can put a figure on that is lying, knowingly. By the time their notional pay-back is past (still un-audited) the goal posts will have been moved - BRIC by BRIC (to mix meta-fours).


As Mr Juncker has recently made perfectly clear. Brexit will bring about change, but remaining in the EU would also have brought about change, with ever closer union, creation of a EU army, forcing all members into a single financial authority (virtually impossible without first forcing the remaining members into adopting the Euro).
At least with Brexit we get to choose which changes we make.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:19 AM

Don't forget the rest of the speech, Iains. It finishes:
That England, that was wont to conquer others,
Hath made a shameful conquest of itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:19 AM

Don't forget the rest of the speech, Iains. It finishes:
That England, that was wont to conquer others,
Hath made a shameful conquest of itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:52 AM

I read you the first time!

How you equate demanding Independence with "Hath made a shameful conquest of itself" rather escapes me I am afraid. Demonstrates the dangers of quoting poetry I suppose.
Try this one instead!

This land of such dear souls, this dear dear land,
Dear for her reputation through the world,
Is now leased out, I die pronouncing it,
Like to a tenement or pelting farm:
England, bound in with the triumphant sea
Whose rocky shore beats back the envious siege
Of watery Neptune, is now bound in with shame,
With inky blots and rotten parchment bonds:

Far more accurate I would say.

Who wants to play next?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:59 AM

Both poems/quotes seem to picture 'England' as surrounded by sea(s).

Maybe they meant 'Britain'!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 08:06 AM

D McG. Adolf Hitler.
       "Only constant repetition will finally succeed in imprinting an                     
       idea on the memory of the crowd"

Nice try but I am not convinced!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 09:00 AM

Maybe they meant 'Britain'! Don't think so, After Edward 1 went motoring through Wales the subsequent Statute of Rhuddlan lost the Principality its independence and it became effectively an annexed territory of the English crown around 1283AD. England had several invasions of Scotland prior to the treaty of Berwick around 1357, where independence was recognised up until the act of union.(I think) Richard 2 reigned 1367-1400. The bard was quite a bit later on the scene.
So a bit of poetic licence as far as the landlocked Scottish border was concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 09:48 AM

I didn't mean that much by it, but I have a bit of thing about those occasions when an author or songwriter says something and people understand the opposite. The point of John of Gaunt's speech is "you may think it is like that, but it is actually like this". You get the same thing in West Side Story where a lot of people think the song is about how wonderful America is, but is actually about the gap between the American dream and what the immigrants experience.

No need to dwell on the point any further.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 10:57 AM

DMcG I am afraid I had to learn big chunks of Richard 2 for English Lit. O Level. I like to throw bits out now and again. It all gets a little too serious here. Levity has it's place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 12:54 PM

It all gets a little too serious here. Levity has it's place

Yep. Like comparing a double-tap of the enter key to Hitler, for instance?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:04 PM

DMcG. I was looking for a quote on repetition. The one I chose probably was not the most apt. I apologize.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:49 PM

Jim and I are equally massive "packmates." So much so that we never communicate with each other except for what you see in the threads. Who's the twat now, Inanes? 😂

John, the final act in that thread you claim you didn't get closed was your most incredibly sweary and offensive name-calling post of all time. You really don't need to do that in order to make whatever points you want to make. You're a lovely man whose opinions I value, though you don't really do irony, do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:52 PM

And your 0317 post is cowardly. No names, no pack drill, eh?

Moving on...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 08:47 PM

You get the same thing in West Side Story where a lot of people think the song is about how wonderful America is, but is actually about the gap between the American dream and what the immigrants experience.

No need to dwell on the point any further.


Except to say you need to pay more attention. The song is actually about both. That's what makes it a great song.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 01:42 AM

On the West Side Story song "America!": Certainly both the dream and the gap are presented. But I would say essence is that the women present the dream and the men say "Yes that's the dream. But a dream is all it is for people like us". That's why, in my opinion, the song is about the gap. But I encourage everyone to form their own view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:17 AM

Who's the twat now, Inanes? 😂
It is no surprise contributors below the line are diminishing with the above learned contributions from our resident boasting "well educated scientist" Shaw you are a fool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 08:36 AM

When did I ever say I was well-educated?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 08:51 AM

Well-educated? Educated to a greater degree than those you are denigrating from a start point of complete ignorance? Educated better than those you call Philistines? Often Shaw unfortunately your input more often than not displays the truth of the matter.

Yet to hear any of the "remainers" views on the storm that is just about to hammer the EU over an unofficial referendum about to be held in Spain over Catalonia seceding from Spain. The EU is on a hiding to nothing on the issue as it cannot win no matter what happens. Political observers deem this issue to be a greater threat to the EU than Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

"scientist"......lol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

Do you see parallels between Catalonia in Spain and Scotland in the UK. I know that Scotland and the UK united through political means 300 odd years ago. What is the history between Catalonia and Spain?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:30 AM

Do you see parallels between Catalonia in Spain and Scotland in the UK.
No, not really. Scotland wanted a vote, and the UK permitted one to take place. (Not equivalent at all)
If the UK had decided that a vote could not be binding, and would be ignored, I still don't believe you would have seen the heavy handed tactics that the Spanish have used.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:32 AM

The Spanish/Catalan problem may be worthy of its own thread, if anyone is interested enough.

I don't really think it relates to "Post Brexit life in the UK"


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:57 AM

Nigel Parsons. It is related only to the extent that there is a drive towards greater unification or federalism in Europe while at the same time Brexit and the Catalonians seek greater autonomy. The two concepts cannot be reconciled. I can recommend some Farage clips on youtube
Farage
Like the man or hate him, he makes very articulate arguments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:10 AM

Iains:
As I said I don't really think it relates to "Post Brexit life in the UK"
It may relate to "post Brexit life in the EU" but that wasn't the title of this discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:11 AM

I do not suppose for one second the "remainers" on this forum would open, or even discuss, anything to do with what is currently happening in Spain Nigel. The main reason for this being that it is their fiction that all is well in the EU and in the Eurozone. Examination of current events in Spain and in Brussels prove that quite a number of supposedly inalienable rights can be conveniently kicked into the long grass whenever it suits as far as the EU is concerned. In short, the EU and all it's weaknesses are demonstrated for all to see.

The other factor that has come out of the recent Labour Party Conference is that should Corbyn and Labour win the next election the consensus is that there will be a run on the £ Sterling that will see it devalued as much as 50% if McDonnell's unpriced idiotic schemes are put in place. I wonder how loud the cheers of approval will be from Connemara and County Clare?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM

Catalonian autonomy and Scottish independence are perfectly compatable with a strong federal Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:36 AM

David Carter. I hope you are correct, but I find it hard to believe.

For STEVIE BLUNDER "When did I ever say I was well-educated?"

Allow me to refresh your memory my pompous little friend:
RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 06:22 AM

As a matter of fact, I'm an inveterate user of dictionaries. I'll let my use of English in my posts to this forum stand testament to that. It's just that, as a WELL-EDUCATED SCIENTIST, I tend to question everything and take nothing at face value, and I don't care much for authority.
Tell me did you leave Catholicism because God decided he could not be a**sed to argue with you any longer?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:38 AM

From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM
Catalonian autonomy and Scottish independence are perfectly compatable with a strong federal Europe.


If that is so, why are the EU so concerned about the possibility of UK autonomy & independence?

Or do you think that Scotland & the Catalan people would be 'autonomous & independent' within the EU? (and be happy to be so)
The Scots referendum debates made clear that that was probably the least likely outcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:08 AM

The EU are not concerned, just rather sad at what the UK is doing to itself. Of course Scotland and Catalonia could be autonomous and independent within the EU. And the Scots referendum debate made no such thing clear, the Scottish people were fed the lie that their continued EU membership depended upon remaining in the UK. And a fat lot of good remaining in the UK has done them in that respect.

Scotland is best off out of the UK and in the EU. If it was I would move there given the chance. Catalonia, I am not so sure, I don't know as much about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:13 AM

"For STEVIE BLUNDER"
Why do you persst on lowering the tone of this interesting discussion?
"Allow me to refresh your memory my pompous little friend:"
And why do you constantly feel the need to talk down to people ?
We've already got one of them and he tends to do it with far more panache than you
"I wonder how loud the cheers of approval will be from Connemara and County Clare?"
See what I mean - it's like being in a ******* Kindergarten between the pair of you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:14 AM

From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:08 AM
The EU are not concerned, just rather sad at what the UK is doing to itself.

Of course the EU are concerned, They are about to lose one of their biggest cash contributors. Why do you think they are trying to get such a big payment out of us?
Of course Scotland and Catalonia could be autonomous and independent within the EU. And the Scots referendum debate made no such thing clear, the Scottish people were fed the lie that their continued EU membership depended upon remaining in the UK. And a fat lot of good remaining in the UK has done them in that respect.
The EU made it clear that there would be no automatic entry for Scotland if they left the UK.
If they attempted to re-join they would have to introduce the Euro (a requirement for any new joiners to the EU) they would also have to be accepted by the remaining 27 members (unlikely to be accepted by Spain as it would set a bad example for Catelonia).


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:17 AM

To maybe lghten the tone - from another thread
Wonderful cartoon in this morning's Times showing Boris Johnson, arse to the fore, in Bunny-girl costume on a front page of Playboy
The caption reads, "Entertainment for Tories, How I screwed Britain - my biggest boobs, BreXit rated)"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:22 AM

Teribus, I think you misunderstand the situation in Spain. I havn't lived in Spain for the best part of 25 years, and then it was in Canarias, not Catalonia. But I do understand that the autonomy of autonomous regions is very precious to people, and there are deep historical reasons for this, related to divides which have not fully healed since the civil war. But the way I see it the Catalan people don't have any problem with the EU, their problem is with Rajoy. And Rajoy is from the PP, and the PP are, however sanitised, the heirs to Franco, who was really hated in Catalonia (not so much in Canarias I hasten to add). Catalan people, like pretty much all Spanish people, are happy with the EU, and extremely happy with the Euro since their savings are not being incessantly devalued as the were when they were in pesetas. Plus Catalonia (and Canarias) have benefited enormously from ERDF.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:26 AM

Nigel, Spain made it clear that they would not block Scottish membership of the EU. And they would not necessarily have to adopt the Euro, though in my view that would be the sensible thing to do.

What is it with you lot and the Euro. The Euro is doing fine, it is a strong and stable currency, to coin a phrase. I am trying to move as many of my savings into Euros as possible, except for those I am moving into Australian dollars. Unfortunately its not so easy to move income streams.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:51 AM

Ok, I admit it. I'm well-educated, at least well enough to know that "well-educated" should have its hyphen.

There is no "consensus" that there will be a run on the pound should Labour win. Stop making things up. John McDonnell stated that the party was planning for that possible eventuality. A very responsible attitude. Pity your party didn't plan for a run on the pound in 1992, eh, Teribus? I would also suggest that scaremongering by the right about a run on the pound will backfire very badly. William Hague tried a similar trick in 2001 by claiming that Labour would have us joining the euro, "last chance to save the pound." He got bloody trounced. But you Tories never learn. Please keep it that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:59 AM

"Well-educated? Educated to a greater degree than those you are denigrating from a start point of complete ignorance? Educated better than those you call Philistines? Often Shaw unfortunately your input more often than not displays the truth of the matter."

Is there a translator in the house? 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 12:14 PM

Ehmmmm not quite right on Spain and EU membership for Scotland David. At the time of the referendum their Foreign Minister stated that he would not comment on it one way or the other.

There are I think six countries in the EU who would block an independent Scotland's entry due to the influence that would have on minorities within their own borders (Even in the EU Member States best national interests will "trump" the ideology of the EU Commission)

In Spain IF Catalonia goes ahead and secedes that will be 25% of the wealth of Spain gone, it is one of the most industrialised parts of Spain. They will find themselves out of the EU without a currency of their own - exactly the same as an independent Scotland would find themselves. From that as a start point neither would be a member of the EU for a further 10 to 15 years. |IF Catalonia goes for independence from Spain, a much poorer Spain will face calls from two other regions The Basque region and Galicia for either greater autonomy or independence. The EU will have to decide which to back, they will more like as not have to back Spain, as they appear to be doing now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 12:29 PM

Purely to answer your question Shaw:

1: "Educated to a greater degree than those you are denigrating from a start point of complete ignorance?

This has been a previous claim of yours when you have called into question the level to which others have been educated. The contention of yours is made however from the basis of complete ignorance related to the people you were comparing yourself to.

2: "Educated better than those you call Philistines?

Philistines as far as you are concerned are those who have learned from working their way up and from life's experiences - none of which you appear to rate too highly. Unfortunately for your side of the argument some of the most successful men in the world came from such beginnings.

3: "Often Shaw unfortunately your input more often than not displays the truth of the matter."

Now what "well-educated" man would refer to flocks of grouse? Especially one who taught Biology ("the study of life and living organisms, including their physical and chemical structure, function, development and evolution").

Not my fault Shaw that such a "well-educated" man as yourself cannot understand plain English.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 12:40 PM

I do not think most europeans realise just how much of a discrete entity Galicia is. It is very proud of it's celtic past and the Galego language, which is widely spoken. It has had several independance organisations in existance in the recent past and should Catalonia free it's shackles I would anticipate Galicia following right behind. Even though Franco came from the area he did Galicians no favours and tried to destroy the language.
The basques have been agitating for more independence for decades.
Some interesting facts on the languages below and possible reasons for the friction with the Castilian areas of Spain.

http://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2201&context=etd


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 01:56 PM

Indeed, Iains, and good luck to them. They have a distinct folk music tradition, obviously there is Luar na Lubre, but more besides. So good luck to an independent Galicia within the EU.

Rajoy, like May, is desperate to keep a failing state together.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:00 PM

David Carter. I lived a while in Galicia and they have many other sensible pastimes besides-like tending vineyards, making wine and distilling the residue to make aguardiente. My cellar had a monstrous grape press and 500lt still. It gives a whole new breadth of meaning to rocket fuel!
But back to the subject in question. How do you reconcile regional autonomy with creeping federalisation. The entire history of the EU is that of a furtive grab of power by a largely un-elected bureaucracy.
It started with the Iron and Steel community then steadily morphed
into the unaccountable monolith that exists today. The entire history of the EU is that of usurping everything that represents the nation state. Centralisation and control by diktat at an ever accelerating rate.
How can you possibly have a concept of autonomy that has any sort of sensible meaning when it is existing within an entity that sucks in power with greater efficiency that a black hole?
To my mind the two concepts are totally incompatible. Additionally the power elite lie through their teeth when it suits. There is now a thrust towards the formation of a European defence Force, with centrally controlled purchasing and specifications. Economically it probably makes some sense but other would find the idea rests uncomfortably. Especially as the total denial of such an "outrageous concept" was not in the so far distant past.
What other cunning little ruses are up their sleeves that they willno doubt lie about? Theft of bank accounts was trialed ever so successfully no too long ago-it can now occur anywhere in Europe!
You may trust them- I do not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:00 PM

Nice one, Teribus. I have plenty more jobs for you up my sleeve. You're a lovely jumper-through-hoops. If you want to have a bash at anyone else's "plain English," by the way, entertain yourself for a minute or two with Iain's last post. After all, you do it with Jim often enough. Come on now, be fair! 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:01 PM

By which I meant the 12.40 pm one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:05 PM

So Shaw why do you not correct jimmies unique massacre of the english language? After all for a well educated "polymath" such as yourself it would be merely the matter of a moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:22 PM

The trouble is Iains, that you are wedded to the concept of the nation state. Much more sensible is a system of autonomous regions which manage their own affairs. But some things, for instance defence, and trade relations, need to be negotiated at a higher level, which is where the EU comes in. The EU does not grab power, it is entities like the UK and Spain which do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:33 PM

David Carter. I think many people are wedded to the idea of nation state and moving away from it will take time. If the EU was more democratic in it's institutions and operated with total transparency people might accept integration more readily. I suspect the EU needs to change, not the people. Trying to merge disparate economies into one was a dream too far as I am sure the Euro will surely demonstrate in the not too distant future.
The history of Empire does not bode well for the extent of the EU lifespan, even the American Empire(hegemony) is fast racing into the ropes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 04:27 PM

From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:22 PM

The trouble is Iains, that you are wedded to the concept of the nation state. Much more sensible is a system of autonomous regions which manage their own affairs. But some things, for instance defence, and trade relations, need to be negotiated at a higher level, which is where the EU comes in. The EU does not grab power, it is entities like the UK and Spain which do that.


The UK does not 'grab power' in relation to defence. It aims to retain what power it has. The UK is happy to allow a supranational defence power. But is also happy to continue with that being NATO, rather than pass it to a relatively new entity, the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 05:26 PM

If the EU was "more democratic?" So what was "democratic" about a shitty coalition that excluded the second-largest party, a referendum that was called by a government frightened to death of both UKIP and its own right wing, nothing to do with the interests of this country, a referendum campaign predicated on telling the people of this country lie after lie and whipping up xenophobia, a party failing to win a majority doing a shitty, grubby deal with a bunch of sectarian bigots in order to cling to power, that same minority government trying to pass a bill that would mean parliament being bypassed on thousands of laws at their whim? "If the EU was more democratic" my arse. We have absolutely nothing to teach the EU about democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 05:37 PM

How about.... the side with most votes in a referendum is the winner?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 05:52 PM

"the side with most votes in a referendum is the winner?"
Like the Nazis got the most votes in Germany, do you mean?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 06:16 PM

ELECTION VICTORY


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 06:54 PM

So what has "the side with most [sic] votes" got to do with any point I made? The answer is precisely nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:26 AM

Calm down Shaw you are getting hysterical. Is that because it took you two days to conjure up a response in the earthquake thread? The strain a bit too much for you? For a well educated scientist I fail to see why you cannot grasp the fact that for any election in the uk the side with the most votes in any area. And the tories are still in power!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:00 AM

"Calm down Shaw you are getting hysterical.
Are you so unsure of your position that you need to fill most of your postings with abuse Iains?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:21 AM

NATO, there is something completely undemocratic. Gets us embroiled in faraway wars against countries we have no problem with in defence of the supposed interests of others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:25 AM

Err... Iains, I think that the earthquake thread showed Steve Shaw to have a lot better grasp of science than you, and a lot better judgement of when to believe things in the media written by fringe scientists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 06:42 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 05:26 PM
"If the EU was more democratic" my arse. We have absolutely nothing to teach the EU about democracy.

Except, possibly, that when 'the people' are allowed a vote then the result should be accepted even when it's not the one the EU wanted.
It seems the EU might have realised that that ploy wouldn't work with the UK, but they've used it with other countries, and would probably be prepared to use it again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 07:11 AM

You're talking past me, Nigel. Read my post again.

Don't worry about Iains, Jim. He simply doesn't matter. By the way, Iains, if you really want to know, I'd been in Madeira for a week and my opportunities for posting to Mudcat were somewhat reduced at times. I'm sure Mrs Steve would really have appreciated it had I said "Hang about, dear, while I just send off a half-hour reply to this weirdly-swears mentalist who has a plural first name. You'll have to wait a bit longer for your stroll down the prom and your coffee and traditional Portuguese custard tart..."

The Portuguese custard tarts are to die for, by the way. I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able to stop mentioning them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 07:33 AM

Weirdly-sweary. The spellcheck "corrected" it twice!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM

That was my point exactly Nigel. Steve says the EU has nothing to learn from the UK about democracy, yet the EU must be the most undemocratic institution in the Western hemisphere.

When they get a result they don't approve of in a referendum or election they force(blackmail) the people into voting again and again until they get the result they want.
If it hadn't been for Mr Farage and his Party we would be well on the way to becoming just another star in the United states of Europe flag.
Before long someone a lot less wholesome than Mr Farage would rise in Germany and there would be absolutely nothing we could do about it.

Thank Christ for UKIP   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 02:28 PM

Better a star on the EU flag than an unloved stain on the floor of the community of nations. UKIP, with plenty of help from the tories, have stuffed this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:01 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 07:11 AM
You're talking past me, Nigel. Read my post again.

Okay, I've re-read your post. It still says "If the EU was more democratic" my arse. We have absolutely nothing to teach the EU about democracy.
I stick with my response that we can teach the EU a lot about democracy: "that when 'the people' are allowed a vote then the result should be accepted even when it's not the one the EU wanted.
It seems the EU might have realised that that ploy wouldn't work with the UK, but they've used it with other countries, and would probably be prepared to use it again." (I'm not quite sure where your arse comes into the discussion, but if you must mention it that's your prerogative.)

Perhaps you should re-read your own post. Aren't teachers supposed to encourage their pupils to read what they are responding to? Or are you past that stage?

I could go on about your post: "what was "democratic" about a shitty coalition that excluded the second-largest party, a referendum that was called by a government frightened to death of both UKIP and its own right wing, nothing to do with the interests of this country,"
The referendum was not called by the coalition. It was called by parliament. The coalition only allowed the referendum to take place once it had been voted on in parliament. The referendum vote had massive support from the labour party (your 'second-largest party'). The vote to hold a referendum was passed (ayes) 544 (noes) 53. (so with 650 MPs, if the only ones to abstain were from Labour, and all the votes against were from Labour that's only (650-544) 106 Labour MPs who didn't vote for a referendum (either by voting against, or by abstention). That means (and I'll spell it out for you) that at least 150 Labour MPs voted to hold a referendum on the possibility of the UK leaving the EU.

Try responding to facts, with facts, rather than your somewhat one-sided suppositions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:16 PM

Sorry, I'll correct that fact. At the time of the vote to hold a referendum Labour had only 232 MPs. so at least 126 labour MPs voted to hold a referendum.
That's still more Labour MPs than the total that either voted against, or abstained.
So the majority of Labour MPs voted in favour of holding a referendum on the UK leaving the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:25 PM

Don't be so disingenuous, Nigel. Any party that voted against a referendum would have been instant toast and you know it. You don't do realpolitik, do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:35 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:25 PM
Don't be so disingenuous, Nigel. Any party that voted against a referendum would have been instant toast and you know it. You don't do realpolitik, do you?


Thanks for the confirmation. So if any party voting against holding a referendum "would be toast" you obviously accept that it wasn't just a ploy by the coalition, but a response to a perceived requirement of the electorate.

I may not do "realpolitik". I prefer to do realism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:45 PM

Of course it was a ploy. The great British public had been groomed by UKIP and Cameron for years to fully expect a referendum. Cameron knew that he wouldn't face parliamentary opposition. The referendum was definitely going to happen by that stage and the Labour Party opposing it at that point would (a) have meant certain defeat and (b) sidelined them forever. Leave your principles at home, Nigel, and accept realpolitik when it's staring you in the face. I bloody hate it but that's the way it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:57 PM

And, of course, by your reasoning, any of the 53 who put their heads above the parapet and voted against a referendum would also be 'toast'.
Can you confirm whether any of them have been re-elected? Or do I need to check that for you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:59 PM

Just checked. 31 of the 53 remain as MPs. All in Scotland, where they may have been voting in line with their constituents wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:11 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:45 PM

Of course it was a ploy. The great British public had been groomed by UKIP and Cameron for years to fully expect a referendum. Cameron knew that he wouldn't face parliamentary opposition. The referendum was definitely going to happen by that stage and the Labour Party opposing it at that point would (a) have meant certain defeat and (b) sidelined them forever. Leave your principles at home, Nigel, and accept realpolitik when it's staring you in the face. I bloody hate it but that's the way it is.


Unfortunately your worldview is highly biased. "UKIP & Cameron". Do you not recall the Labour party promising a referendum before taking us further into Europe? (then reneging)

Here

Hannan says Blair made promises of a referendum in both 2004 and 2005.

Certainly, on 20 April 2004 that was the case, as the PM told Parliament it should debate the European constitutional question "in detail and decide upon it" and "then let the people have the final say".

He ended the Commons statement with the war-cry: "Let the issue be put. Let the battle be joined."

No doubt in that pledge; although Blair's advisors would today point out that he is specifically referring to a debate with constitutional significance, not a watered down treaty.

Fast-forward to the Labour election manifesto in 2005 and the language is as forthright.

Blair promises: "We will put it [the constitution] to the British people in a referendum and campaign wholeheartedly for a Yes vote."
All of which is in contrast to Blair's response to the Financial Times in April this year after it asked if there would be a referendum.

He replied: "No. If it's not a constitutional treaty, so that it alters the basic relationship between Europe and the member states, then there isn't the same case for a referendum."


Now admittedly he was talking about a referendum on whether to ratify a treaty taking us further into the EU, but it comes down to much the same thing. If we weren't prepared to go further in, the alternative would have been to leave. Either we were part of Europe, going for "ever closer union" or we were not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:13 PM

Labour's promises on an EU referendum
"We will put it ? the EU Constitution ? to the British people in a referendum and campaign whole-heartedly for a 'Yes' vote." ? Labour Party manifesto, May 2005
"The manifesto is what we put to the public. We've got to honour that manifesto." ? Gordon Brown, BBC 1 Politics Show, June 24, 2007


So stop trying to put it all down as a plot by UKIP and the Conservatives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:15 PM

The only difference between Conservative promises for a referendum, and Labour promises for a referendum is that the Conservatives kept theirs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:30 PM

Game and set to Nigel I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:51 PM

Yes, well, Nigel, the key point is that New Labour "reneged." It's a bloody good bet that Cameron would have "reneged" had he even remotely suspected that the vote would be to leave. But the hubris-laden twat really did think he couldn't lose. Must be a Tory disease as it's exactly what May did earlier this year. Nigel, for the third time I invite you to contemplate the realpolitik of the last three or four years and stop pretending that any politician, ever, acted on principle or on any promise he made that suddenly seemed to be a bad idea after all. Get real, in other words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:58 PM

Anyway, I'm in poetic mode this evening. Here's a verse from "Mandalay" by Kipling that Boris Johnson's aide only just managed to stop Boris from reciting in an event in Burma:

'Er petticoat was yaller an' 'er little cap was green,
An' 'er name was Supi-yaw-lat - jes' the same as Theebaw's Queen,
An' I seed her first a-smokin' of a whackin' white cheroot,
An' a-wastin' Christian kisses on an 'eathen idol's foot:
Bloomin' idol made o' mud
Wot they called the Great Gawd Budd
Plucky lot she cared for idols when I kissed 'er where she stud!
On the road to Mandalay...


😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 05:02 PM

And thank you to the prescient John Donne for this, a corrective to all those stupid brexiteer xenophobes' warblings:


'No Man is an Island'

No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.


It tolls for the UK, that's for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 05:06 PM

So, under 'realpolitik' (a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.) Labour breaking their promises is a 'good' thing. Cameron keeping his is a 'bad' thing.    Strange world-view that one.

I suppose it all boils down to whether you think the UK is better off in our out of the EU. You then adjust your thinking accordingly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 06:48 PM

"So, under 'realpolitik' (a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.) Labour breaking their promises is a 'good' thing. Cameron keeping his is a 'bad' thing.    Strange world-view that one."

Not at all, Nigel. The point is that it's the real world view. Labour "breaking" its promise was a very good thing, which, unfortunately, was washed away by Cameron "keeping" his. And, whilst we're on realpolitik, and before you get too carried away by call-me-Dave's high-minded "principles," let's just remember why Cameron called his referendum. Nothing to do with the nation's interests (which was to stay in the EU, which he was certain would happen) and everything to do with trying to calm his belligerent backbenchers and staving off Ukip. And if you really want to gnaw away at politicians' promises, you may care to start with Theresa's "no election" promise. 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 07:06 PM

'realpolitik' (a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.)

No leader of ANY mainstream political party in the UK, OR in Europe though for one nano-second that the electorate of the UK would vote LEAVE - that was the reality when any of them talked about a referendum.

The Conservatives honoured their pledge to the electorate of the UK and held a referendum fully expected the "Remain" side to win - IT DIDN'T - "realpolitik" is for the politicians in the UK to recognise the declared will of the electorate of the UK and deliver what they voted for as rapidly as possible by securing the best deal possible that works to the best advantage of the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 09:13 PM

Valiantly hopeful, Teribus. Realpolitik may overtake you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:13 AM

The "Real" situation that politicians have to deal with in both Europe and in the UK is that we voted to LEAVE.

The "Real" situation that politicians in the UK have to deal with is that LEAVE means precisely that and that is what the electorate of the UK expect them to deliver.

The fact that you have not accepted the reality of the situation does not surprise me in the slightest. The Conservative Party Conference is about to open in Manchester this week - those attending it are greeted with a banner hanging from a bridge with the message "HANG THE TORIES" with two effigies in suits suspended from the bridge - that is the tolerance of todays supposed socialists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 03:36 AM

Meanwhile polling stations are opening in Catalonia and French Bretons are rallying for self determination and to show solidarity with Catalonia. No doubt the Basques are thinking along similar lines.
I would be surprised if the Greeks and haircut Cypriots are over enamoured with the united states of europe. Put Brexit into the mix and trying to pretend it is all happy families is simply not going to wash.

    In the caldron boil and bake;
    Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
    Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
    Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
    Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,?
    For a charm of powerful trouble,
    Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 04:37 AM

"The Conservative Party Conference is about to open in Manchester this week"

I agree that it's a pisser that nasty toff tories and their corporate mates are littering up the streets of magnificent Manchester. I really wish they'd fuck off elsewhere, they drag the atmosphere down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 04:43 AM

Stu - 01 Oct 17 - 04:37 AM

The voice of tolerant, liberal, socialism.

Can't wait to hear any possible defence of this stated view of Stu's by any of the "usual suspects".


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 05:13 AM

Iains, Catalans and Bretons are rallying because they don't want to be part of Spain and France respectively, not because they don't want to be part of the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM

Bretons?? I had no idea that they were even considering seeking independence or separation from metropolitan France.

Now as far as Spain goes we do have separatist movements in Galicia, the Basque region and in Catalonia where apparently the Spanish Guarda Civil, specially bussed in from elsewhere in Spain are firing rubber bullets at civilians who are trying to vote.

The problem the EU has David is that should any of these regions gain independence then they automatically find themselves OUT of the EU. The EU requires large tax paying entities such as Spain, France, Italy to bankroll the EU's schemes so that is who the EU supports in these instances. In the recent Scottish Independence referendum the EU position was the UK is a member state if you opt to leave the UK then you are no longer a member of the EU - same applies to the Spanish regions - oh and the Bretons if ever they should decide to part brass-rags and become independent from France.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 06:08 AM

Sorry Teribus, my mistake in believing Iains.

Catalonia in particular is a net contributor to Spain. So if it were independent, it would be welcomed by the EU for this reason alone, in addition to the fact that it has a vibrant culture which the EU will always support.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 06:13 AM

The link is a little old but does illustrate not everyone aspires to the united states of europe.
https://www.rt.com/news/159236-separatism-increase-europe-elections/


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 06:34 AM

Dunno about hang the Tories. What is very likely is that May will shortly be hung out to dry by the Tory backwoodsmen. Stu's expressing a view that he wishes the Tories would go elsewhere ("fuck off" is not part of my personal Mudcat lexicon as I have other words I can use) does not go against liberal, tolerant socialism. He's expressing a wish that's echoed all over a city that the Tories have done no favours to. He's not actually driving the Tories out. You wouldn't call him illiberal and intolerant if he'd said it about the BNP (or maybe even UKIP, though you do seem to be perfectly aligned with them). If you want plenty of examples of illiberal intolerance you only have to look at the excoriation of, ridicule of and lies told about Corbyn by your side before the election. What a mistake. You now realise that you have to take him seriously.

Spain needs Catalonia, a relatively prosperous part of Spain, because its loss would seriously impoverish the country. Naturally, if the improbable ever came about and Catalonia did leave, the implications apropos of the EU would become relevant. In the meantime, the EU doesn't come into it. I'm far more concerned that Barça would no longer be part of La Liga, meaning no more El Clásico matches with Real Madrid. A bloody disaster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 06:36 AM

"The voice of tolerant, liberal, socialism."

Huh? I'm a nowt me old mucker*. Get that straight boy!

Also, you don't have to put up with a city full of hooray henry's, rich tosspots, drunken lecherous old lords, lying old etonians, the London media bubble transported look stock up here, bizzies everywhere and decent watering holes chock full of tory arseholes.

Gawd alone knows why they chose to have their conference here. Manchester is a fine city that deserves better than their sort.



*Actually, I've decided to test out a persona roughly based on the usual suspects (of which you're one Tezza) too try to gain some insight into the way their minds work; a sort of role-playing to try to suss out how their self-delusion works. I wonder if there is a paper in it. This was prompted by the exchange earlier in this thread where I got pissed off with the relentless idiocy of some of the 'members'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 07:06 AM

Monaco play in the French league Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM

That's a relief. In that case, go, Catalonia!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 12:35 PM

I am sure that IF Catalonia opted for independence it would be welcomed into the EU in accordance with the EU's own rules and procedures. Immediately on achieving independence Catalonia would find itself automatically OUT of the EU and it would have to apply for membership. The process would take between 10 and 15 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:09 PM

More than 400 injured by police in Catalonia referendum. This is where we see the real colours of the EU. Is this why a pan european defence force is being sought? Modern Spain is displaying the same jackboots as under Franco and the EU Leaders say nothing! Is this tacit encouragement? These events will make people unhappy throughout the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:25 PM

Jeremy Corbyn has campaigned and argued against the EU all his political life, it is extremely disingenuous to claim that his supposed support now is anything but a vote gathering process amongst the politically ignorant young "millennials".

These young folks are easy meat for the ideologues of the Stalinist Left who are now positioning themselves within the Labour Party.
It's history repeating itself....Remember "Militant" and how they were hounded from power with the help of the Unions, to re-install the status quo in the shape of Blair.

The wheel of fortune spins round and round and I'm sure Mr Corbys will soon be marginalised like Foot and Benn.
In politics, War War is more effective than Jaw Jaw.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:26 PM

This is where we see the real colours of the EU"
thought it was Spanish police did the damage
Didn't realise the EU had police
Silly me
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:29 PM

Actions taken today by Spain's Ministry of the Interior and Guardia Civil Units deployed in Catalonia have now more or less guaranteed that Catalonia WILL now push for independence from Spain. The Basque region and Galicia will then follow suit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:54 PM

"Better a star on the EU flag than an unloved stain on the floor of the community of nations." - David Carter (UK)

Talking of the community of nations Mr. Carter, the largest international organisation in the world is the UN - a meaningless and ineffective "talking shop". Could you tell us what the second largest international organisation in the world is?

I think that you will find that it is "The Commonwealth of Nations" - an organisation established in 1931 by Great Britain and made up of former British Dominions, colonies, dependencies, protectorates and overseas territories IIRC 52 countries in all (Population in 2013 estimate
ed at 2,328,000,000
) - so almost double the size of the EU in terms of member states with three times the population of the EU - that's some stain, and in terms of trading potential certainly not one that can be easily ignored.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM

"Didn't realise the EU had police" Never heard of europa?
Silly me

Who am I to argue?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:12 PM

"politically ignorant young "millennials"

As opposed to the politically ignorant old white twats who fucked the world up?

Jog on, old man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:16 PM

ten, nine, eight


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:33 PM

Do you realise, Iains, how extremely silly your 01.09 post looks?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:49 PM

ONly one of mine and all of yours. Not a bad trade my man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM

"Who am I to argue?"
Why should you start now?
We are wellaware that British police were well able to mow down
MINERS' WIVES without the encouragement or assistance of the E.U.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 08:02 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM
"Who am I to argue?"
Why should you start now?
We are wellaware that British police were well able to mow down
MINERS' WIVES without the encouragement or assistance of the E.U.
Jim Carroll


I've read your link. It's necessary to go a long way into it in order to find that despite the appearance of the picture, the woman concerned was NOT hit by a policeman.
Despite what it says early in the article, that the picture is of Lesley Boulton, about to be hit by a policeman.
In Lesley's own words
"The photograph shows a mounted police officer with baton raised about to hit me on the head.

Lesley Boulton goes on to say:    

Lesley Boulton: "There had been some stuff going off before I arrived but I don't know exactly what happened. A few stones going over - nothing major at all. There was a standoff for a while - a few stones went over, and then there was a massive cavalry charge up into the village.

"The ranks of the police were several deep. They opened up and the police did a series of cavalry charges and pushed us back into the village and then blockades were set up - a police blockade at one side of the bridge and a miners' blockade at the other side of the bridge.
"There's a T-junction there and a bus stop. I was attending to a man who was on the ground and seemed to have some chest injuries.

"I was standing trying to attract the attention of a police officer in the road to get him an ambulance. I didn't know how serious it was but I thought it warranted some medical attention.

"As I stood up to attract this policeman's attention, this officer on a police horse just bore down on me."
This was the very moment that John Harris took the picture of Lesley.
"Fortunately for me there was someone standing behind me who was also with the injured miner, who just yanked me out of the way


So, Jim Carroll, are you ready to withdraw your comment?

The so-called 'victim' has stated that they weren't "Mown down" by the police.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 08:14 PM

Jim Carroll
Oh, and your post talks about police attacking "Miners Wives".
By her own statement, Lesley Boulton was not a miner's wife: The Guardian
I joined Sheffield Women Against Pit Closures early in the miners' strike, in 1984. It was made up of miners' wives or, in my case, politically aware women. I was in the anti-nuclear movement, and had been at Greenham Common. We knew a huge fight was coming, and it couldn't be ignored.

Sorry to have to put some actual facts in, but you clearly just repeat populist hearsay.

Again, would you care to withdraw your comments?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:06 AM

So - No Miner's wives mown down - Jim Carroll "Made-up-shit".

Same as with the non-existent piles of dead miners Carroll stated had been massacred at Tonypandy - shot down by armed police under the direct orders of Winston Churchill - more Jim Carroll "Made-up-shit".

Fortunately for the sake of the discussion Nigel, Jim Carroll never seems to read the articles he links to and, as you have just revealed, the article usually proves to be completely at odds with the point that Carroll is trying to make.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:41 AM

The relevance of miners in this thread escapes me, other than the fact that the cracking of heads seems to be a feature of the protestor's life since the police morphed into paramilitary bodies. I believe in the UK it started in London with the special control groups in 1961. The most recent demonstration of the art is in Catalonia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:45 AM

"Spain's Constitutional Court has suspended the referendum and the central government says it is illegal.

That is all the Spanish Government had to do - no physical action was ever required.

Instead Guardia Civil Units were deployed there from other parts of Spain, people were physically prevented from voting, polling stations were stormed and people attacked resulting in horrendous scenes and 888 civilians and 11 police officers injured - small wonder no-one was killed.

Catalonia has an electorate of some 5.3 million. Of that number 2.2 million apparently managed to vote yesterday. I assume that that number mainly represents the "hard-core Separatist" element considering the publicity the event provoked in the days leading up to the referendum itself. Of the 2.2 million votes that were cast yesterday 90% voted for independence. That means 1.98 million out of an electorate of 5.3 million voted for independence for Catalonia.

The Spanish Government should have made their statement and permitted the non-binding, unconstitutional referendum to go ahead peacefully, denying the electorate nothing. The result, I believe, would have been a resounding NO.

The can has just been kicked a little further down the road. There will be a referendum at some point in the future and yesterday's events will have been etched on the minds of many Catalonians who up until yesterday were undecided.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:53 AM

"So, Jim Carroll, are you ready to withdraw your comment?"
Of course I most certainly not - the photograph I chose is Iconic of what happened at Orgreve and elsewhere https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/dec/02/miners-strike-orgreave-special-report where miners, their families and their supporters were beaten down by mounted police and those on foot carrying shields and batons
It was a vicious breach of democracy by Thatcher and her thugs compounded by the fact that she was prepared to use the army had she thought it necessary
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/03/margaret-thatcher-secret-plan-army-miners-strike
Thatcher was a self-confessed fascist who openly declared her admiration for a mass-murderer's style of government and described those who tried to bring him to trial for his crimes as "running a police state" (end of quote) ? she even had her own little rally complete with crossed British/Chilean flags
Pinochet's crimes are beyond denial ? there, but for what passes for British democracy, limited as it is, would have gone Britain, and I have no doubt that the miners would have held pride of place among her victims
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM

Jim Carroll "Made-up-shit".
Carroll stated
more Jim Carroll "Made-up-shit".
Carroll is trying to make
(one posting)
It seems that our hero is baxck to his old insecure, thread-cosing self with a vengeance
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:13 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:53 AM
"So, Jim Carroll, are you ready to withdraw your comment?"
Of course I most certainly not - the photograph I chose is Iconic of what happened at Orgreve and elsewhere https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/dec/02/miners-strike-orgreave-special-report where miners, their families and their supporters were beaten down by mounted police and those on foot carrying shields and batons


The link you chose shows someone who turned up because there was going to be a fight (her own words)who was NOT hit by a police baton.

If the photo is 'iconic' of anything it is of the misrepresentation which can be found on almost any subject, and which is used by the politically inclined to support a biased 'historic' viewpoint.

You choose not to withdraw the statement. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM

The truth of the matter is that Scargill thought he was above the law.
The magnificent Thatcher chastised him with the rule of law. Government runs countries not jumped up unions. The industry was dying long before Thatcher arrived on the scene. Additionally, closing the industry prevented many deaths and injuries. In 1926 there were 1.2million miners, in 1976 247k. Thatcher was elected in 1979 well after the industry was in it's death throes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

Another early bonus from post Brexit:
Monarch Airlines goes bust. They cite the weak GB Pound (their transactions are in $s, revenue in Sterling). Deniers have a get-out (in their own planet) because the reduction in traditional middle east tourism due to fears over terrorism has weakened revenue in a currently more competitive market.

A legal nicety, courtesy of the EU, means 100,000 (really?) passengers need to be found/funded alternatives to be re-patriated. Another law that will need to be, and might be, Britisized, when Treeza (or Jezza gawd help us) get round to it.

Change costs money and those changes will cost us personally. And they are creeping out of the woodwork slowly. We will never be able to audit them all, but I can hear the pay-backers singing loudly on the pluses. Most of which will be emotional, rather than practical - like "we get to choose". We've chosen, we pay the price.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 05:27 AM

From: Mr Red - PM
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

Another early bonus from post Brexit:
Monarch Airlines goes bust. They cite the weak GB Pound (their transactions are in $s, revenue in Sterling). Deniers have a get-out (in their own planet) because the reduction in traditional middle east tourism due to fears over terrorism has weakened revenue in a currently more competitive market.


Anything to support that claim about the "weak GB pound" being the cause?
Even the BBC who usually take any opportunity to lash out at Brexit only mention it in passing.
From the BBC:
What has gone wrong?
Monarch reported a loss of £291m for the year to October 2016, compared with a profit of £27m for the previous 12 months, after revenues slumped.
It had been in last-ditch talks with the CAA about renewing its licence to sell package holidays, but failed to reach a deal
Blair Nimmo, from administrator KPMG, said its collapse was a result of "depressed prices" in the short haul travel market, alongside increased fuel costs and handling charges as a result of a weak pound.
The transport secretary blamed a victim of a "price war in the Med".
However, Monarch chief executive Andrew Swaffield said the "root cause" was terrorism in Egypt and Tunisia, as well as the collapse of the market in Turkey.
He said it had been carrying 14% more passengers than last year - but for £100m less revenue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:13 AM

If exchange rates are being blamed for economic problems now, think of the joys of corbynism. He has wargamed the impact of a run on the pound should he become premier. The loony left apparently have a vestigial contact with reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:55 AM

What on earth are you complaining about? Your name is Carroll isn't it?

Or is it the fact that once more been caught out in a complete and utter fabrication?

"If the photo is 'iconic' of anything it is of the misrepresentation which can be found on almost any subject, and which is used by the politically inclined to support a biased 'historic' viewpoint." - Nigel Parsons

Seems as though someone else on this forum has got your number down dead to rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:58 AM

"The truth of the matter is that Scargill thought he was above the law.
The magnificent Thatcher chastised him with the rule of law."

Any support for this resounding declaration from you of what the truth is, what was in Scargill's mind or what Thatcher had him convicted him of? Let's see more of your sword of truth, Iains!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM

"What on earth are you complaining about? Your name is Carroll isn't it?"
My chosen identification is Jim Carroll "Carroll" is an attempt top talk down and bully as most schoolchildren know
I repeat the bit our Tory contingent have carefully ignored
Thatcher was a self-confessed fascist who openly declared her admiration for a mass-murderer's style of government and described those who tried to bring him to trial for his crimes as "running a police state" (end of quote) ? she even had her own little rally complete with crossed British/Chilean flags
Pinochet's crimes are beyond denial ? there, but for what passes for British democracy, limited as it is, would have gone Britain, and I have no doubt that the miners would have held pride of place among her victims

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:30 AM

Scargill Arrested


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:34 AM

Thatcher? Pinochet? Another attempt to deflect attention away from the fact that you got caught out Carroll?

What have either to do with "Post Brexit life in the UK"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:39 AM

SCARGILL ARRESTED
POLICEMAN CALLS FOR ENQUIRY
MAY CONSIDERS ENQUIRY THIRTY YEARS TOO LATE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:42 AM

"Thatcher? Pinochet? Another attempt to deflect attention away from the fact that you got caught out Carroll?"
You are happy to discuss the miners strike - when it come to who caused it and how she behaved you run for cover
That's what it's got to do with post Brexit
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:05 AM

Let's see more of your sword of truth, Iains!
Short answer. No!
Long answer. No!

Not in your classroom now stevie boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:09 AM

"You are happy to discuss the miners strike"

Really Carroll show me where and when?

First mention of "miners" was made by YOU - Jim Carroll - 01 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM - when you told your "porkie" about British police mowing down miner's wives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:10 AM

You are happy to discuss the miners strike - when it come to who caused it and how she behaved you run for cover
That's what it's got to do with post Brexit
Jim Carroll


I think, if you look a little further up the thread you will find that you introduced the miners' strike with your link to a photo which you thought supported the contention that 'miners wives' were 'mown down' by the British police.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:34 AM

I introduced the photo to show that our police are quite happy to behave like those in Barcelona without help of the EU hence my comment
You people took it up and used it as yet another opportunity to give the British working man a kicking, as is your wont and you all have been quite happy to do so until you are faced with the fact that the woman you all support was a self confessed fascist ? then you all shit blue olllies and cry foul ? thus is your grasp of open debate
Elsewhere your ilk has been happy to take any subject and use it as an opportunity to launch racist attacks on Travellers
God bless British democracy and freedom of speech
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:37 AM

"A legal nicety, courtesy of the EU, means 100,000 (really?) passengers need to be found/funded alternatives to be re-patriated. Another law that will need to be, and might be, Britisized, when Treeza (or Jezza gawd help us) get round to it."

The UK repatriated people stranded by bankrupt airlines long before joining the EU. I suggest you look at the history of Court Line.
I actually know a little about this as a part of the operation survived in Capetown as Court Helicopters and I flew them for 2.5 years.
Court Line


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:03 AM

I introduced the photo to show that our police are quite happy to behave like those in Barcelona without help of the EU
And I have made clear that that photo showed nothing of the sort.

You people took it up and used it as yet another opportunity to give the British working man a kicking, as is your wont
Sorry, where was that?

Elsewhere your ilk has been happy to take any subject and use it as an opportunity to launch racist attacks on Travellers
I have never made racist comments about travellers

God bless British democracy and freedom of speech
Yes, it gives you the right to spread lies and disinformation.
Unfortunately for you it also gives us the right to correct your errors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:15 AM

"I have never made racist comments about travellers"
I said your ilk
You can tell a man who boozes by the company he chooses
And the bleedin' pig got up and walked away.
As the song so eloquently puts it
If I tell lies have the balls to point them out and not just allude to them - another thing common to your ilk
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:22 AM

Hi Iains

<" Government runs countries not jumped up unions">

Not Completely true. The Unions have huge influence on the Labour Party. They dance to the Unions' tune. Ask Red Ed Milliband.

Cheers

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:26 AM

Jim,
If you attribute attitudes and actions to me "and my ilk" you are tarring us all with a very broad brush. Just the thing you would not wish us to do for travellers.

As for your lies, you stated that British police were able to mow down miners wives. If not a lie, then at the very least an unsubstantiated accusation. Just like your comments about miners being killed in South Wales.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:30 AM

"You people took it up and used it as yet another opportunity to give the British working man a kicking"

You linked your totally misrepresentative photograph and were pulled up for doing THAT - please point out to anyone reading this thread where anybody then went on to "give the British working man a kicking". Since posting your lie - 01 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM - nobody has even mentioned the British working man you clown.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:40 AM

"You linked your totally misrepresentative photograph and were pulled up for doing THAT -"
You have persitently kicked workers - scroungers ruiners of industry - lazy stupid.... even a potential itinerant work force
Hour hatred of ordinary Brits reches the same level as how you regard Travellers and the Irish
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 11:29 AM

MikeL2
"They dance to the Unions' tune. Ask Red Ed Milliband."
I found the tune they dance to! Enjoy.

Hotel Corbynista


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 12:27 PM

"The link you chose shows someone who turned up because there was going to be a fight (her own words)who was NOT hit by a police baton."
From my link
Grace Shaw: So it's Orgreave on a sunny day in June, didn't look like it was all about to kick off. What happened next?
Lesley Boulton: "There had been some stuff going off before I arrived but I don't know exactly what happened. A few stones going over - nothing major at all. There was a standoff for a while - a few stones went over, and then there was a massive cavalry charge up into the village.
"The ranks of the police were several deep. They opened up and the police did a series of cavalry charges and pushed us back into the village and then blockades were set up - a police blockade at one side of the bridge and a miners' blockade at the other side of the bridge.
"There's a T-junction there and a bus stop. I was attending to a man who was on the ground and seemed to have some chest injuries.
"I was standing trying to attract the attention of a police officer in the road to get him an ambulance. I didn't know how serious it was but I thought it warranted some medical attention.
"The skin of my teeth"
>"As I stood up to attract this policeman's attention, this officer on a police horse just bore down on me."
This was the very moment that John Harris took the picture of Lesley.
"Fortunately for me there was someone standing behind me who was also with the injured miner, who just yanked me out of the way.
"The photographer John Harris was using a motor drive and I've seen not just the famous photograph but the subsequent picture which shows the baton going down very close to me.
"I felt it go past me. I was just missed by the skin of my teeth really.
"That part was very, very disturbing. The police were actually having a very good time, they were enjoying this huge exercise of brutal authority, so I found that very disturbing.

"You got the sense that they were just out of control and quite a few miners were injured on the day. One young lad that I took a photo of had his leg broken. There were quite a lot of injuries."
GS: If the policeman's baton had hit you, would it probably have knocked you out?
LB: "Oh absolutely, without equivocation."
GS: Do you think the policeman thought you were a miner?
LB: "I don't know, I was holding a camera as I was trying to attract attention and I don't know what he thought really. The police were completely carried away. Some of them were laughing and obviously enjoying this exercise of their power.
The footage from Orgreave showed police on horses charging into defenceless men, and one officer repeatedly lashing a miner, Russell Broomhead, over the head with a truncheon. There was also the shocking photograph of a woman, Lesley Boulton, seemingly about to be smashed across the head with a long stave wielded by a police officer on a horse. She was pulled to safety, but many of the newspaper pictures of arrested miners showed them bleeding down their bodies from nasty wounds to their heads.

From The Daily Star 1st December 2013
The shot of Lesley Boulton narrowly avoiding a baton strike was a key image of the 1984-85 dispute.
But the negatives disappeared after she tried to bring an assault case.
They were considered a "crucial piece of evidence" but police argued the image may have been tampered with.
Without them, Lesley's case ? which backed up accounts by miners who said they were "indiscriminately battered" by police the same day ? never went ahead.
No officer ever faced charges over the events at Orgreave, South Yorks, on June 18, 1984, during which 51 miners were injured.
Almost 30 years on, campaigners want justice and the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) is studying files from the time.
Lesley, 68, hopes they contain clues about what happened to the negatives, which she believes were stolen from a London picture library.
She also says her case files went missing after a "senior police officer from London" visited her Sheffield lawyers.

I don't tell lies, but On the other hand, those who make statements like this do
" non-existent piles of dead miners Carroll stated had been massacred at Tonypandy - shot down by armed police under the direct orders"
I have said exactly how many were killed at Tonypandy adding only that eye witnesses claimed there were several more
The thousnds is made up Teribus lying shit
Daily Mirror journalist, Geoffrey Goodman, in his 'The Enemy Within' describes early morning baton charges through mining villages where up to twenty women and children were injured
If I missed the detail on one atrocity there are others to choose from   
As I said ? I don't tell lies
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 12:54 PM

I wouldn't exactly call Ed Miliband "red," Mike. And Labour, in thirteen years, didn't exactly reverse the swingeing attacks on the unions by the preceding Tory regimes, did they? It's right and proper, given the origins of Labour and trade unionism, that the unions have a voice. With the Tories it's big business and vested interests who have the voice, not to speak of the hard right in the party who are at this very moment plotting to get rid of May. But the Labour Party does not dance to the union tune and, arguably, never did. That's just tired old Tory party propaganda and it stopped working for you decades ago. If any PM in history did dance to the unions' tune it was Edward Heath. And Cameron danced to both the hard right tune and the UKIP tune. My pay doubled under Heath in a mere 18 months in the early 70s and the unions were cock-a-hoop. Anyway, I've been a trade union member for 45 years and am now a Labour Party member too. We're better together!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:08 PM

Nigel
"If you attribute attitudes and actions to me "and my ilk" you are tarring us all with a very broad brush. "
Just as those who use terms such as "leftie" do
I have yet to disassociate yourself from these low-life and you support the same policies, so your silence is proof enough fro me
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:35 PM

Here we have a Jim Carroll CLASSIC:

"I don't tell lies, but On the other hand, those who make statements like this do

" non-existent piles of dead miners Carroll stated had been massacred at Tonypandy - shot down by armed police under the direct orders",
[Teribus]

I have said exactly how many were killed at Tonypandy adding only that eye witnesses claimed there were several more
The thousnds is made up Teribus lying shit


Jim Carroll's lies:

1: That miners were shot and killed (piles of corpses) in Tonypandy under the direct orders ("shoot left", "Shoot right") of Winston Churchill. ONE Miner died as the result of a head injury caused by a baton not a bullet. The truth is that NO Miners were shot or died as the result of gunfire. The truth is that Winston Churchill was opposed to sending in troops and he was not present to order anybody to do anything.

2: Looking at my post quoted above where is the reference to there being thousands? I cannot see it - Jim Carroll can - Jim Carroll always sees things that are simply not there.

3: Miner's wives that were mown down - NO SUCH THING EVER OCCURRED - to state that it did IS A LIE.

4: "You people took it up [Carroll's Iconic Photograph] and used it as yet another opportunity to give the British working man a kicking" - Jim Carroll

You linked your totally misrepresentative photograph and were pulled up for doing THAT - please point out where anybody then went on to "give the British working man a kicking". Since posting your lie - 01 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM - nobody has even mentioned the British working man you clown.

LIES Carroll and they are all YOURS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:56 PM

From Russia today.
"It took the European Commission more than a day to respond to Sunday's violence in Catalonia, in which a police crackdown on voters left some 900 people injured. The EU Council president has urged the Spanish PM to avoid further "escalation" and "use of force."

Strange behaviour. It was obvious to a two year old that violence was going to occur. Seems the President could have been a bit more prescient and forceful with his pathetically inadequate pronouncements. I also get the distinct impression the newspapers are trying hard to downplay the events in Catalonia. Maybe not false news, but a little massaging perhaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:17 PM

Maybe it's like Northern Ireland. Maybe you need to live there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM

Hi Steve

I was not inferring that I thought Ed Milliband was a "Red". I was just repeating the name he had been called towards the end of his sad time as leader.

I too benefited from Heath's "generosity !!

I had moved companies at that time. I was paid a good salary - what they offered at my interview. After being in the nine months it tirn out they had quoted me the wrong rate for the job nine months . I was back-payed nine months' pay which included a 15% increase thanks to Heath.Didn't like the guy but I did raise my glass to him !!!!

Hope you had a great time in Madeira - We love the place. The soil is so fertile that if you stuck a broom handle in the soil it would sprout and produce flowers.
Regards

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:00 PM

We loved it, Mike. It was our first visit and we didn't really travel much beyond lovely Funchal, though we did get to the incredible viewpoint at Cabo Girão and the fishing village of Câmara de Lobos where there's an amazing fish restaurant. We stayed outside Funchal near São Martinho in a lovely B&B, discovered courtesy of Alastair Sawday's website. Glorious gardens and great civic pride and we'll be back! And yes we did do a levada walk, unguided and slightly hair-raising in places! Good old EU!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:19 PM

By the way, Mike, how can I not mention those traditional Portuguese custard tarts. I think I know a lady down in Exeter Quays who makes them, though only on Saturdays. I have my bus pass. My God, how I live in hope...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:37 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:08 PM
Nigel
"If you attribute attitudes and actions to me "and my ilk" you are tarring us all with a very broad brush. "
Just as those who use terms such as "leftie" do
I have yet to disassociate yourself from these low-life and you support the same policies, so your silence is proof enough fro me


So, according to you anyone who uses the term 'leftie' is a 'low-life'. As I said, very broad brush-strokes.
As for "I have yet to disassociate yourself" that is a clause that makes no sense however I try to read it. I have not, knowingly, associated myself with 'low-lifes' and so cannot disassociate myself. But you seem to be saying that you can disassociate myself.

I think I shall leave this thread for now, as I am past trying to reconcile what you say/type with anything either reasonable or understandable in the English language.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM

"So, according to you anyone who uses the term 'leftie' is a 'low-life'. As I said, very broad brush-strokes."
It is used as a term of abuse on this forum by those who throwit about - a dismissal of argument - it is usually terminated by "mob" or "pack" or "gang"
I have no problem wit being described as "leftie" though it is inaccurate - I am a humanist with left wing views and an interest in politics and history
By "low-life", I'm referring to those who substitute name-calling personal insults and blustering bullying for articulate argument
You tand to make your points more intelligently and usually, I can see where you are coming from and argue if I disagree, but your political views invariably run on simiar to the low-life and you have disparaged and name-called on occasion (I think - if I am wrong, I apologise).
These are the people I associate your arguments with
Your last insulting sentence tends to confirm what I believe
I'm not particularly well educated, but I have always read up my interests
I make a large number of typos due to an idiosyncratic keyboard which I'm reluctant to replace because of its transcription features, but I' not bad at spelling and I say what I say as clearly and honestly as I can and link to published information when possible
The problem with these forums is that they are full of "ioks" (another favourite phrase of your friends) who haven't had the benefit of a higher education
Maybe you should opt for 'First Class' rather than 'Steerage' !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:52 AM

Anything to support that claim about the "weak GB pound" being the cause?
Yea the BBC reported
"the weakness of the pound following Brexit"
implication, if not attribution.

Plenty of pundits in the city ascribe the weakness of the pound to uncertainties over Brexit. You don't have to look far, but you do have to look. Your choice not to. Feel free.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:28 AM

I think part of the problem is that some people are asserting Brexit is THE cause of Monarch's failure (or other issue of your choice) while others are pointing out it is not THE cause.

The reality is that the weakness of the pound is A cause, amongst others. Nigel's post where he asked for evidence that it was the cause even contained a bit he highlighted himself saying it was a factor. It was just not the single and sole cause, or even perhaps the most dominant factor.

That is still a cause in my book. You may disagree, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:44 AM

My response about Monarch Airlines was a response to Mr Red's post of 2/10/17 04:51 which appeared to put the whole affair down to Brexit.
The various published comments do no appear to give any credence to that view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 07:06 AM

That's fair enough, Nigel, but I am sure you can appreciate that arguing that "the whole affair cannot be put down to Brexit" risks be misunderstood as "Brexit is not involved in any way." Quite different things, I hope you agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 07:57 AM

That's fair enough, Nigel, but I am sure you can appreciate that arguing that "the whole affair cannot be put down to Brexit" risks be misunderstood as "Brexit is not involved in any way." Quite different things, I hope you agree.

Yes, I fully agree that that form of wording could be misleading to those who do not read English carefully. Fortunately I didn't use that phrase. What I said was: My response about Monarch Airlines was a response to Mr Red's post of 2/10/17 04:51 which appeared to put the whole affair down to Brexit. As you'll see I was not attempting to identify the root (or any) cause. Just pointing out that Mr Red's comment appeared to read that Brexit was the sole cause of Monarch's failure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 02:55 PM

Hi Steve

Glad you enjoyed Madeira.

I know most of the places you mentioned.

We ate in Camara de lobos Several times. We sampled Espada - fried fish with banana - lovely. We also enjoyed their Espatada which is Beef wrapped in banana leaves served on huge metal skewers.
We saw the Espada fish in the fish market - ugly huge black fish that looks as though it was wearing a black shiny raincoat.

We stayed in the Eden Mar hotel quite close to the Lido.

We did several of the Levada walks and enjoyed them thoroughly.

On one of these purely by chance we happened on the Madeira Football Ground. They were holding a sports day for the schools. We were invited to watch and they gave us a bottle of wine. On the outside of the pitch several of the Madeira football team were training. We took several pictures of the day.
Some years later we were going through the pictures with our son and family. My wife had taken a shot of three young footballers running.
Our son jumped up and shouted " that is Ronaldo". At that time he was playing for Manchester United.

Your post gives us both lovely memories. Thanks

Regards.

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:13 PM

Ah, that's great, Mike. And this lovely bit of Madeira banter is definitely on-topic as Madeira, being Portugal, is very much a part of the EU. I wonder what they'll think of us Brits once we leave. We won't be quite so special any more. We'll be more like all those yanks who arrive in massive cruise ships and fill the little Funchal streets with their noise (and their dollars, I suppose). We saw the espada in that fabulously-smelly fish market too. The fish restaurant in Camara was owned by a chap who also owned a meat restaurant. We much preferred the former. We had garoupa the first night and bream the next time we went. It was a brilliant restaurant. Five stars when I get round to Trip Advisor!

We went to Blandy's for a tour and a Madeira tasting. The five-year-old Bual was on special offer so we bought six bottles, delivered for free to the post-security departure area. Jaysus, we struggled to lug that lot around!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:40 AM

Portugal is England's oldest ally in Europe, the alliance goes back centuries so I do not think their attitude to "us Brits" will change in any significant way. We will still be welcome as visitors who contribute a massive amount to their economy.

Meanwhile over the border in Spain it would appear that their government is determined to make a bad situation even worse. The Catalan President is on record as stating that either at the end of this week, or early next week, they could declare themselves independent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:16 AM

I see many here would prefer to cast nasturtiums rather that aspersions at the EU. Must be nice to live in the gilded bubble of constant delusion. Meanwhile down the rabbit hole, wherein lies reality: The Catalonians have ejected over 500 police from their hotels, 700,000 people are protesting in Barcelona, and the Catalan President intends to declare independence shortly.A General Strike has also been called for. This is just the start. Anyone for happy families?

Some very significant points raised in the article below, especially concerning human rights legislation and it's abandonment in the EU.

Referendum ripples.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:29 AM

"Portugal is England's oldest ally "
Portugal was a fascist state under Salazar up to 1974
Great reference!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:32 AM

Whoops, for the pedents
"under Salazar up to 1974 "
Should read "till four years after his death, up to 1974
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:49 AM

Jim I fail to see the point you are making.
Britain was allied with Stalin and Chiang Ki Shek during WW2.

Do you not realise expediency makes for strange bedfellows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:35 AM

"Britain was allied with Stalin and Chiang Ki Shek during WW2."
Despite Trumps best efforts, we are not at war
Terubus put up Portugal as historically reliable - I pointed out that they were a fascist state up to 1974 - how reliable is that?
This love-affair wasn't an expediency measure - it was "the marriage of true minds" - a match made in heaven, in fact
I'm not a great fan of either Stalin and Chiang Ki Shek, so I fail to see your addressing this to me
Back to Brexit
The rights and wrongs of taking the decision to leave aside, the present leadership seems to be staggering from crisis to crisis over implementing the decision
Mayflower naused up her majority in an attempt to strengthen her hand and was forced to bung a Party with terrorist connections £1billion of the taxpayers money to clean up her mess
She has now been forced to appeal to the contenders for her position to "put Britain first rather than their own political ambitions"
Predictions on the budget show that the present shitty position of the have-nots in Britain will remain unaltered and almost certainly deteriorate due to the uncertain economic future of trade and industry
I told them there'd be tears before bedtime, but did they listen?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 07:23 AM

Jim:
Mayflower naused up her majority in an attempt to strengthen her hand and was forced to bung a Party with terrorist connections £1billion of the taxpayers money to clean up her mess

You frequently berate other users (not me) for deliberate miss-use of your given name. You can correctly name Salazar & Chiang Ki Shek. Does not Theresa May deserve similar courtesy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:16 AM

"Terubus put up Portugal as historically reliable - I pointed out that they were a fascist state up to 1974"

Yet ANOTHER Jim Carroll misrepresentation!!!

A number of points Jom:

1: Where exactly did I say that Portugal was "historically reliable" (Whatever that means")

I believe I merely pointed out that Portugal was ENGLAND's oldest ally in Europe - a historical fact.

2: Portugal has been recognised as a sovereign independent state since 1143. Which makes it 874 years old, in that time it was a right wing dictatorship between 1933 and 1974 a total of 41 years or 4.7% of the time it has been an independent country. So Carroll could also have stated and pointed out that Portugal has not been a fascist state for 95.3% of the time that it has been in existence.

What is your point Jom?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM

"What is your point Jom?"
I think the point here is you are incapable of responding in an adult fashion to anyboody who doesn't subscribe to your own inflated opinion of yourself
You appear not to be bright enough to work out that your loutish behaviour acts as flag indicating that yoiu are at a loss for an intelligent answer
Britain's friendship with a fascist state is always worth a mention as far as I'm concerned
"Does not Theresa May deserve similar courtesy?"
You are not seriously putting the politicians who act like clowns and consistently screw us out of bounds are you Nigel
If they can lie their way into power, than I feel perfectly at ease taking the piss out of them in any way I can
Does a politician who does deals with terrorist linked parties, bungs them a billion of the taxpayers money as a bribe and screws up her own majority deserve our courtesy - what do you think Nigel?
Seesh - what a question!!!
Really made my day
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:14 AM

Cameron disrespected the whole country by calling a referendum that was all about seeing off his own hardliners and UKIP. May disrespected the whole country by calling an election which was entirely about her own party's interests and nothing to do with the country's interests. During her campaign she disrespected Corbyn time and time again. To her cost, I'm delighted to say. You don't "deserve" courtesy. You earn it, or at least you don't forfeit the right to it. She has not earned it and she has it coming as far as I'm concerned. I can think of far stronger names than Mayflower I'd like to call her. Don't you ever look at political cartoons, Nigel? And, while you're castigating Jim for that peccadillo, how about castigating those on your side of the argument who consistently refuse to address us by the names we choose to use here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:20 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:14 AM
Cameron disrespected the whole country by calling a referendum that was all about seeing off his own hardliners and UKIP. May disrespected the whole country by calling an election which was entirely about her own party's interests and nothing to do with the country's interests. During her campaign she disrespected Corbyn time and time again. To her cost, I'm delighted to say. You don't "deserve" courtesy. You earn it, or at least you don't forfeit the right to it. She has not earned it and she has it coming as far as I'm concerned. I can think of far stronger names than Mayflower I'd like to call her. Don't you ever look at political cartoons, Nigel? And, while you're castigating Jim for that peccadillo, how about castigating those on your side of the argument who consistently refuse to address us by the names we choose to use here?


You seem to have have missed the whole point with your argument. I am not supporting those who miss-use Jim's given name. I'm pointing out that Jim, or yourself, should conduct yourselves in the way you expect others to conduct themselves. I do not address comments to "Jom" or "Carroll" and I can understand why he gets annoyed with those who do. But he can hardly complain about it if he does the same for the names of others. (Such as calling Theresa May "Mayflower"). I was pointing out his double standards in this respect.

As to "deserving" courtesy, it is not the same as 'respect' in that it needs to be earned. If you treat someone with a lack of courtesy, it reflects not upon that person, but on you.

If you were a teacher, you may have expected a class to greet you with "Good morning, sir." That does not show that you have earned their respect (as it is expected of every class even before they get to know the teacher) it is a sign that they are being taught to act courteously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:10 PM

The "Cameron calling the referendum" nonsense I thought that Nigel Parsons had completely rubbished that. Very boring of you Shaw to persist with it, but nobody would expect anything else from you.

Now back to Carroll (For whom I have no respect whatsoever) that keen self-proclaimed student of "history", who always seems to get things spectacularly wrong. I would have thought that being a keen self-proclaimed student of history he would know the difference between ENGLAND, Great Britain and the United Kingdom. Carroll obviously does not. Portugal being ENGLAND's oldest ally in Europe has got absolutely S.F.A. to do with who Great Britain cozied up to in the years 1933 to 1974. In actual fact Great Britain was somewhat less than friendly towards Salazar's Portugal when Goa declared itself independent in 1961.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:11 PM

I told all my classes never to call me "sir." I tried to build the relationship on politeness and a friendly demeanour all round. We can reserve "sir" for knights of the realm and for use by policemen booking me for speeding when they ask me the Great Unanswerable Question, "Didn't you see the speed limit sign back there, sir?"

Calling politicians names and lampooning them is all par for the course. 'Twas ever thus. In fact, it's a healthy sign that we live in a democracy and not a dictatorship, in which "disrespecting" leaders could cost you your head. It is not the same on this forum as we are addressing each other, not third parties who aren't listening. There has been a very persistent trend for two members here to call Jim "Jom" or "Carroll" and me "Shaw." Yes plenty of us are guilty of indulging in similar practices at times, it can't be gainsaid. However, the Shaw, Jom And Carroll are hostile attempts at talking down by two people who are singularly unqualified to talk down to anyone. I remember way back in the seventies when the school at which I taught got a new headmaster. He thought he could swan in and address the staff by their surnames only. He soon discovered that he couldn't, because we adopted a strict policy among ourselves of not recognising that he was addressing us at all until he decided to become a little more polite. That learned him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:16 PM

I see your telling-off for being high on the list of problem posters is wearing off, Teribus. 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:24 PM

declared itself independent in 1961.
Salazar was found to be a fascist in 1933
The fact that it took thirty years to break the friendship oof these two bosom buddies seems to me to be a case of theives falling out
" Carroll (For whom I have no respect whatsoever)"
Nice to know I still have you on the back-foot
You'll never learn, will you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:31 PM

Hardly hostile - Shaw and Carroll do happen to be your names.

Jom on the other hand was how the man himself signed off one of his own posts so I cannot see his objection to it - or yours Shaw. It is rather funny that the only "names" you "object to" are those mentioned, while both of you find no problem with those used by yourselves and others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:58 PM

Just one more time for a self-proclaimed student of history:

Portugal is ENGLAND's oldest ally in Europe

ENGLAND - Jom - ceased being the signatory of any international agreements, alliances or treaties after the year 1707.

Now what were those Salazar dates again Jom? Before or AFTER 1707?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:33 PM

I didn't mention agreements Teribus and your "jom" makes it quite clear that you are fully aware of that fact and need to strut and bully to save face
You don't need a piece of paper to cozy up to a fascist regime - just something in common with them
You weer the one who described Portugal as "England's oldest ally in Europe" and pointed out that "the alliance goes back centuries"
If you don't want to lose a foot, don't open your mouth.
"Hardly hostile - Shaw and Carroll do happen to be your names."
Pathetic little man
Hilarious scenes at the Tory party conference
AS Mayfly fluttered her way through her speech, the board bearing the Tory Party slogan behind her head began to shed its letters one by one (very symbolic) and someone ran up and handed her her P45 (even more symbolic)
There certainly is no business like show business
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM

" how about castigating those on your side of the argument who consistently refuse to address us by the names we choose to use here?"
What a sensitive little flower. Has your usage of Inanes slipped your mind?
I believe respect has to be earned. Now I would be the first to admit that there are a couple that post here that periodically I find hard work. However you are in a league of your own stevie boy. Rest assured, I hold you in the deepest contempt and it will be an epic journey down a long winding road before you will have reformed sufficiently to earn my respect. Just look at your postings through the eyes of those on the receiving end. Overbearing,bullying, sanctimonious, priggish, arrogant to name but a few of your less desirable qualities that are displayed to excess each time you post.That is in addition to your inane posturing and quack diagnoses of a persons supposed insecurity.Besides boasting of being a well educated scientist do you flog snake oil on the markets down in Cornwall?You have some gall to dare criticize others on this forum!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:01 PM

"What a sensitive little flower. Has your usage of Inanes slipped your mind?"
You are as simple minded as your strutting mate but not as experienced at it
Grow up foir fuck's sake, it's lioke dealing with dysfunctional children
You are not even imaginative enough to be original
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:04 PM

Hi Steve

It sounds like the same restaurant that we used all those years ago.

We never tried the Garoupa ( Grouper Fish ?)
But I had several times the Dorada Sea Bream).My wife preferred sea bass - Robala if I remember rightly. Delicious.

We did the Blandy's Tour too. .....but we didn't roll out with 6 bottles, although it felt like I'd supped 6 bottles in the tasting room...lol

I really don't care if Portugal was facist under Salavar. I found the peopleto be courteous and friendly and always ready to help. One we went walking around the rocks and shore and several hours later that I had lost my wallet which contained all my money,credit cards and return air tickets. I went to the police station in Funchal. Within three minutes my wallet was returned entact. I asked the Police who returned it and they told me it was a shop keeper from down the road. I went and met the lady and thanked her. I offered her some money and she point blank refused it. I prefer to judge people as they are today

Would that have happened in England......I doubt it.

Steve I am pleased to hear the you are going back. You will be remembered and treated well.

Regards

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:12 PM

'Double standard & hypocrisy' from the EU. Catalan NO, Kosovo YES

https://www.rt.com/news/405659-catalonia-referendum-spain-serbia/


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM

Ooh, touchy little Inanes! Can you read? For your benefit (and Teribus's - he missed it too) I'll say it again.

Ahem.

"Yes plenty of us are guilty of indulging in similar practices at times, it can't be gainsaid."

Did you both manage to catch it that time? Seems as though you both could have used a bit of schooling!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM

"You weer the one who described Portugal as "England's oldest ally in Europe" and pointed out that "the alliance goes back centuries"

Portugal is England's oldest ally in Europe - In fact it is the oldest treaty in the world

The alliance does go back centuries, signed as it was on 16 June 1373 between King Edward III of England and King Ferdinand and Queen Eleanor of Portugal - That is going back centuries isn't it?

With regard to Salazar, that fascist you were on about, the treaty ensured agreement with regard to Portuguese neutrality during the Second World War and kept the Iberian Peninsula out of the war. Salazar, that fascist you were on about granted Great Britain use of airbases in the Azores to help combat the German U-boats during the Battle of the Atlantic - So in ensuring the defeat of the fascist Axis Powers during the Second world War, that Portuguese fascist Salazar did a damned sight more that "good ol' Dev" did in Dublin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:23 PM

Dunno whether the people in mainland Portugal are the same, but everyone we met in Madeira was utterly gracious, helpful and charming. We didn't have to pick up those bottles until we got to the duty-free beyond security, Mike, though we paid for them at Blandy's (great arrangement!) and they were in two decidedly sealed bags! I hasten to add that most of them are prezzies for people!

Most...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:25 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM
Ooh, touchy little Inanes

There you go again. "Sauce for the goose . . ." ?

Did you both manage to catch it that time? Seems as though you both could have used a bit of schooling!

Presumably you benefitted from "a bit of schooling". Perhaps you need to read Alexander Pope on that subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:34 PM

You're getting a bit literal in your youth/middle age/old age, Nigel (delete as applicable). Try doing subtle. Try reading between the lines. Try to be a bit less po-faced. Let's have fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:34 PM

"that Portuguese fascist Salazar did a damned sight more that "good ol' Dev" did in Dublin."
Salazar remained in Power and remained a fascist until his death in 1970 - his fascist government survived for another four years - still Britain's closest ally apart from minor spats
I have no more time for Dev than I have for any of this lot - but at least they backed away from Stalin when they found what he was while good old Britain remained friends with Salazar, who, maybe not so coincidentally, was still around whien Madd Maggie's mentor was butchering, raping and torturing his way through the Chilean young people in SANTIAGO STADIUM
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:47 PM

That's a beautiful piece, Jim. Cheers for that. When I read it I don't want to think of Thatcher's sycophantic support of Pinochet, as the people mentioned in the piece are totally without bitterness. But I can't help it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:34 AM

"Salazar remained in Power and remained a fascist until his death in 1970"

Franco lasted in Spain until 1975, "Communists and left-wing critics called his regime "fascist", but academics typically categorize it as conservative and authoritarian." The nature of the regime in Spain changed markedly over the period Franco was in power. The same can be said of Salazar's regime in Portugal. "Salazar founded and led the Estado Novo ("New State"), the corporatist authoritarian government that ruled Portugal until 1974. The Estado Novo collapsed during the Carnation Revolution of 1974. Evaluations of his regime have varied, however, there is a general consensus that Salazar was one of the most influential figures in Portuguese history."

This by the way was the Portugal that Salazar grew up in:

The era of the First Republic (1910 to 1926) has been described as one of "continual anarchy, government corruption, rioting and pillage, assassinations, arbitrary imprisonment and religious persecution". It witnessed the inauguration of eight presidents, 44 cabinet re-organisations and 21 revolutions. The first government of the Republic lasted less than 10 weeks and the longest-ruling government lasted little over a year. Revolution in Portugal became a byword in Europe. The cost of living increased twenty-fivefold, while the currency fell to a ?1/33 part of its gold value. Portugal's public finances and the economy in general entered a critical phase, having been under imminent threat of default since at least the 1890s. The gaps between the rich and the poor continued to widen. The regime led Portugal to enter World War I in 1916, a move that only aggravated the perilous state of affairs in the country. Concurrently, the Catholic Church was hounded by the anti-clerical Freemasons of the Republic and political assassination and terrorism became general. Between 1920 and 1925, according to official police figures, 325 bombs burst in the streets of Lisbon. The British diplomat Sir George Rendel said that he could not describe the "political background as anything but deplorable... very different from the orderly, prosperous and well-managed country that it later became under the government of Senhor Salazar". Salazar would keep in mind the political chaos of this time when he later ruled Portugal..........

Salazar was a law graduate who specialised in finance and the economic policy. After the military revolutionary coup in 1926 Salazar reluctantly entered government after much pleading and persuasion as Finance Minister in 1928, with Portugal under the threat of an imminent financial collapse:

"he personally secured from Carmona a categorical assurance that as finance minister he would have a free hand to veto expenditure in all government departments, not just his own. Salazar was the financial czar virtually from the day he took office.
Within one year, armed with special powers, Salazar balanced the budget and stabilised Portugal's currency. Restoring order to the national accounts, enforcing austerity and red-penciling waste, Salazar produced the first of many budgetary surpluses, an unparalleled novelty in Portugal"


In 1932 Salazar became Portugal's 100th Prime Minister:

"The authoritarian government consisted of a right-wing coalition, and he was able to co-opt the moderates of each political current with the aid of censorship and repression directed against those outside of it. Those perceived to be genuine fascists were jailed or exiled. Conservative Catholics were Salazar's earliest and most loyal supporters, whereas conservative republicans who could not be co-opted became his most dangerous opponents during the early period. They attempted several coups, but never presented a united front, consequently these attempts were easily repressed. Never a true monarchist, Salazar nevertheless gained most of the monarchists' support, as Manuel II of Portugal, the exiled and deposed last king of Portugal, always endorsed Salazar. Later, in 1932, it was due to Salazar's actions that the deposed king was given a state funeral."

Now then Carroll, take heed of this bit:

"The National Syndicalists were torn between supporting the regime and denouncing it as bourgeois. They were granted enough symbolic concessions for Salazar to win over the moderates, but the rest were repressed by the political police. They were silenced shortly after 1933 as Salazar attempted to PREVENT THE RISE OF NATIONAL SOCIALISM IN PORTUGAL". What a strange thing for a "fascist" to do. As is this:

"Just before World War II, Salazar made this declaration: "We are opposed to all forms of Internationalism, Communism, Socialism, Syndicalism and everything that may divide or minimise, or break up the family. We are against class warfare, irreligion and disloyalty to one's country; against serfdom, a materialistic conception of life, and might over right."

Shaw was wondering how he would be received in Madeira after we left the EU. That is how we got onto this diversion of yours Carroll. I still stick to my original answer to Shaw's question - No different to how he was treated before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 03:59 AM

"I have no more time for Dev than I have for any of this lot - but at least they backed away from Stalin when they found what he was while good old Britain remained friends with Salazar, who, maybe not so coincidentally, was still around whien Madd Maggie's mentor was butchering, raping and torturing his way through the Chilean young people in SANTIAGO STADIUM
Jim Carroll



1: "No time for good ol' Dev" Jim?? But he is a hero of yours, one of the "men of the gun" from 1916 who did so much to completely fuck up any hope of a united Ireland. The man who opted for not one but two wars and screwed up the economy of the fledgling Irish Nation.

2: This "Stalin" that everybody backed away from. Was that the same Stalin referred to in the "Good old Joe" banner you were so proud about being photographed under? The same Stalin that your relatives and Ewan McColl were in tears over when he died? The same Stalin that murdered ~50 million of his own people?

3: Think that we have shown that Salazar was NOT a fascist in any sense of the word.

4: What proof is there that Margaret Thatcher even knew Augusto Pinochet in 1973? He certainly was not her "Mentor" as you describe, she was already Prime Minister by the time the UK Government had any dealings with Chile and the regime of Augusto Pinochet.

As a self-proclaimed keen student of history you certainly seem to have an amazing lack of being able to grasp the concepts of detail and timelines.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 04:22 AM

"3: Think that we have shown that Salazar was NOT a fascist in any sense of the word"

Amazing if you consider that was "Opposed to democracy, communism, socialism, anarchism and liberalism" (wiki) and that "Salazar used heavy-handed censorship and a ubiquitous secret police to quell opposition, especially that related to the Communist movement" (again Wiki) together with "Salazar relied on secret police to enforce the policies he wished to implement" (Once again Wiki)

No, not a fascist in any sense of the word!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 05:28 AM

Be careful who you defend, Teribus. That kind of thing defines you, and you use it yourself to define your perceived adversaries here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:11 AM

Why so confrontational in view Shaw?

Who is "defending" anyone?

Certain statements were made by our self-proclaimed keen student of history that I disagree with in relation to their accuracy.

Perhaps you, Shaw could, elaborate and tell me where my observations are at fault.

What was Eamon de Valera's contribution to the fight against "fascism" during the Second World War? I can tell you (Already have) Salazar and Portugal's.

In other recent threads Jim Carroll has strenuously defended Stalin, his reputation and his record.

Salazar imprisoned fascists in Portugal from 1933 onward and prevented the rise of "national socialism" in Portugal. Hardly what you would expect from someone Raggy and Carroll describe as being a fascist.

At what point in either of their political careers was Augusto Pinochet the mentor of Margaret Thatcher? - That is what Carroll claimed wasn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:19 AM

" But he is a hero of yours, one of the "men of the gun" from 1916 "
I suppose somebody who refuses to back anything up with evidence can say what they please about anything so I won't bother erquesting yu to produce a single statement of mine praising Dev
The "men with the guns were the same ar those who took up arms against the various predatory Empires and eventually kicked their areses back to where they belonged" India, Cyprus, Kenya..... whichever till Britain had its grubby little hand
Dev was never one of those - he was always happy to let others do the dirty work - Collins being a cse in point.
"you were so proud about being photographed under? "
Same as point one - you
won't produce my sayin I was "proud" of any such thing - I stated the facts about the photograph to illustrate how Stalin was regarded by Britain as a whole
When did you become divorced from reality anf honesty, or where you never married to it?
"Think that we have shown that Salazar was NOT a fascist in any sense of the word."
Wki entry
After the Portuguese coup d'état of 28 May 1926, Salazar entered public life with the support of President Óscar Carmona, initially as finance minister and later as prime minister. Opposed to democracy, communism, socialism, anarchism and liberalism, the ideology of Portugal was conservative and nationalist in nature under his rule. Salazar also promoted Catholicism, but argued that the role of the Church was social, not political, and negotiated the Concordat of 1940. One of the mottos of the Salazar regime was "Deus, Pátria e Familia" (meaning "God, Fatherland, and Family").[1]
"What proof is there that Margaret Thatcher even knew Augusto Pinochet in 1973? "
Who on earth said she did ?
"By Julie Hyland
9 October 1999
The highlight of the past week's Conservative Party conference was a packed meeting on Wednesday evening addressed by former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, entitled "General Pinochet: the only political prisoner in Britain".
In a hall bedecked with Chilean flags, Thatcher was flanked by two Chilean senators, former chancellor Norman Lamont and Pinochet's son, Marco Antonio. Met by rapturous applause, she decried the extradition proceedings against the former dictator as "international lynch law", "judicial kidnap" and the equivalent of a "police state".
The case against Pinochet was a "Marxist" plot, Thatcher claimed. "The left can't forgive" Pinochet for defeating communism and successfully transforming Chile into a model free market economy, she continued, and were taking revenge on one of ?Britain's greatest friends?.
Thatcher had not addressed a Tory Party conference for nine years. That she used the occasion to make such an outspoken defence of a fascist dictator epitomised the lurch to the right witnessed throughout the conference. On every front, Thatcher loyalists dominated proceedings and advanced policies that went further than those implemented by her government, prior to her fall from leadership in 1990."

That's my good deef for the day
I'm off
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:41 AM

Hmmmmmmmm If it looks like fascism, tastes like fascism and smells like fascism I guess some people will still not consider it fascism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:55 AM

Hmmmmmmmmmm ......... Raggy what may look like fascism to you and your rather deranged pal Carroll may well be nothing of the sort:

Franco's Spain - "Communists and left-wing critics called his regime "fascist", but academics typically categorize it as conservative and authoritarian." - I'll go with the historian's, biographers and academics.

Salazar's Portugal - "Salazar founded and led the Estado Novo ("New State"), the corporatist authoritarian government that ruled Portugal until 1974."

Whatever Salazar's Government was it was obviously a damned sight better than what had preceded it since 1910 as borne out by the " general consensus that Salazar was one of the most influential figures in Portuguese history." Salazar took a country renown for inefficiency, corruption and indebtedness, that had been in chaos for decades and transformed it into the orderly, prosperous and well-managed country that it later became. Once again I will go with recorded fact and the better informed opinions of historians, biographers and academics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:59 AM

Of course you will "Communists and left-wing critics" are not to be trusted are they .............


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:03 AM

Were we to have a popularity contest would ever Blessed Maggie win or Bliar Blair?

Her Majesty's evil little helper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:04 AM

FRANCOS "CONSERVATISM"


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:08 AM

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-spanish-holocaust-inquisition-and-extermination-in-twentieth-century-spain-by-paul-preston-7468500.html
MORE


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM

Much as I do not like Tony Blair, it needs to be pointed out that this agreement came into place 3 years AFTER he resigned as both Prime Minister and Leader of the Labour Party. Bit of a none story really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:26 AM

Raggytash. Does a leopard change his spots? It is merely his career progression.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 09:40 AM

My God. Who's the next fascist dictator you're going to defend, Teribus? Does his surname begin with H?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 11:30 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 09:40 AM

My God. Who's the next fascist dictator you're going to defend, Teribus? Does his surname begin with H?


Guessing that by 'H' you mean Hitler. You forfeit!

there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned Adolf Hitler has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.[7] This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law

From Here


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 11:52 AM

Not applicable in this instance, unfortunately. We are in a conversation about fascist dictators. Bringing Hitler's name into that is hardly gratuitous. Anyway, how do you know I didn't mean Habyarimana or Hussein? ??


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 12:08 PM

Give me the name of a fascist dictator that I have defended, might make a good start Shaw before progressing to asking which one will be the next one.

Of the two leaders I have mentioned and gone into in detail opinion varies Franco in Spain sought the help of the Nazis in Germany and the Fascists in Italy in order to defeat the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War. He remained neutral during the Second World War but leant towards the Axis more than likely because he felt obliged to do so for past favours rendered - doesn't mean that he himself was a fascist. The similarities between the regimes of Nazi Germany and the U.S.S.R are so slight that you couldn't slide a cigarette paper between them - does that make them both "fascist"? His government is most accurately described as being "conservative and authoritarian".

Salazar in Portugal remained neutral throughout the Second World War but managed to help the Allies in the most important battle of the war. He jailed and suppressed those he believed to be genuine fascists and found the German form of national socialism particularly abhorrent. So what form of fascist was he Shaw? - Salazar's government is most accurately described as being "corporatist authoritarian".

Not my labels, but those of academics and scholars who know a damned sight more about it than either you, or I.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 12:34 PM

But while you are in the mood to explain things Shaw - what about this one that you conveniently ducked:

At what point in either of their political careers was Augusto Pinochet the mentor of Margaret Thatcher? - That is what Carroll claimed wasn't it?

Yar tis so as there's no doubt:

"I have no more time for Dev than I have for any of this lot - but at least they backed away from Stalin when they found what he was while good old Britain remained friends with Salazar, who, maybe not so coincidentally, was still around whien Madd Maggie's mentor was butchering, raping and torturing his way through the Chilean young people in SANTIAGO STADIUM" - Jim Carroll

I find it difficult to believe that it slipped your mind after all you found it such a "beautiful piece Jim" - pity it's all a load of bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:39 PM

It is a puzzle as to why Steve Shaw should be asked to justify something posted by Jim Carroll, especially when one considers the person asking the question.

Just my opinion of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:51 PM

Primarily Raggy, because I know that Jom is not going to answer, or clarify his idiotic assertion and as Shaw thought it was so beautiful I took it that he must know when it was that Augusto Pinochet was Margaret Thatcher's mentor. Turns out he doesn't, neither I dare say do you because we all know, like most of Jom's strident assertions - it was a load of bollocks - I am merely pointing that out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:23 PM

It was a lovely piece, devoid of bitterness, with human scale, about the Estadio Nacional in Santiago where the massacre took place in 1973. I said nothing about Thatcher or Pinochet in that post. You really are a twisted, bitter, sniping, negative, charmless, problem poster, aren?t you, Bill ?Teribus? Woodcock?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 01:34 AM

That so called "BEAUTIFUL PIECE" also happened to be devoid of truth or fact Shaw. I know YOU didn't mention Pinochet or Thatcher, but Jom did in a totally misrepresentative way that you and your pals do not seem to have any problem with, yet you all seem to get rather "arsey" when it is pointed out - Bill "Teribus" Woodcock eh? Waz-up "teach" getting upset because the discussion is not going your way - AGAIN - I take it now that the effort to get this thread closed will go into overdrive, as you and your pals have done so often in the past.

So can we now all take it that, due to your lack of response and a total lack of any supporting, substantive, evidence to back up Carroll's deranged claims, at no time at all was Pinochet ever Thatcher's mentor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 04:27 AM

I don?t ask YOU to defend everything that Keith, Iains, akenaton, Stanron, Nigel or robocop say, do I?   I?m getting a bit worried about you, mate, what with this and your inability to recognise a fascist at zero paces...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 04:43 AM

In terms of getting threads closed I would think a "problem poster" is a bigger menace than those who haven't been publicly rebuked.

Just my two pennies worth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

As a mental midget that does not know his place, I certainly do not require or expect backup to support my arguments .Meanwhile a happy toon for the pack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rblYSKz_VnI


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:19 AM

Aw Raggywhen it comes to being publicly rebuked you should look at the number of times your pals have been admonished


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM

"As a mental midget that does not know his place, I certainly do not require or expect backup to support my arguments."

Intriguing. Is this a classic example of a dangling modifier or is it a man lamenting his own mental deficiencies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:54 AM

I am not aware of any other poster being rebuked publicly you alone enjoy that particular "accolade" in fact you seem to revel in it.

No doubt if others have been so rebuked you will inform us all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 10:35 AM

The only problem I can see with Teribus' posts is that they consistently refute made-up-shit and ideological claptrap with facts. It seems that there are some who are unable to handle that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 11:24 AM

You mean like the facts that Salazar, Pinochet and Franco weren't fascist dictators? Those kinds of facts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM

Ehmmmmmm ...... Shaw where and how did Pinochet get put in the mix in the detailed discussions relating to Franco and Salazar? Or is that just a deliberate misrepresentation on your part. Pinochet it appears was part of a Military Junta, not political in any way, bit difficult to be a fascist without political backing isn't it? Both Mussolini and Hitler were the founders and leaders of their respective political parties founded on national socialist principles and it was through those parties that they gained power Mussolini by threatening a coup (The March on Rome) and Hitler by using the electoral process in place in Germany at the time.

Still no answer as to when Pinochet was Margaret Thatcher's mentor? Still can't bring yourself to confirm that that little assertion, apologies, beautiful assertion of Jom's was just more "Made-Up-Shit" and complete and utter bollocks to boot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:30 PM

You do not get to ask me to justify what someone else has said. I'm really not interested in doing that. The rest of your post is just fluff. You think that three people universally regarded as fascists, except by fellow fascists, are not fascists. Weird.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:45 PM

"three people universally regarded as fascists"

"Universally regarded"?? Where on earth did you get that clap-trap from Shaw? Or do you mean universally regarded as fascists by Steve Shaw? - Fortunately what you regard as being what doesn't really amount to a pile of beans. I mean you regard Jeremy Corbyn and Momentum controlled Labour as suitable material for Prime Minister and next Government of the UK respectively - it is more generally accepted that that is complete and utter bollocks - fair indication of how "spot-on" what you regard things as being.

Franco's government in Spain was a military dictatorship that came to power with the help of two leaders who WERE fascists. Doesn't make Franco a fascist.

Salazar's government in Portugal jailed fascists as enemies of the state and did everything it could to suppress national socialism (Fascism) in Portugal - Not really typical "fascist" behaviour is it?

Pinochet was part of a Military Junta and completely non-political.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 05:48 PM

You really are not of this world any more, are you? Heheh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 05:57 PM

"You really are not of this world any more, are you? Heheh"

What a brilliant, and insightful response, I think this guy must have been a headmaster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 06:07 PM

Well what response is even remotely possible to a bloke who says that El Caudillo wasn?t a fascist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 02:43 AM

In your opinion Shaw, most likely in the opinion of ideologically driven socialists and communists, but NOT in the opinion of political historians and academics who have studied the man, his times and the period. NOT in the opinion of the Church or the followers of the Roman Catholic religion (I'd imagine that that was quite a number in a country like Spain). Two sides fought the Spanish Civil War - the Republicans (Leftist; Communist; anti-church) and the Nationalists (Conservative; Monarchist; Catholic Church). Although Franco's main foreign allies were fascist (Italy) and national socialist (Germany) the Falange in Spain was national syndicalist, the three should not be confused as being the same thing. As with most things in the real world Shaw this is a great deal more complex than your simplistic political ideology can cope with. I'll go with the experts who have studied the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:25 PM

You need help. Seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:37 PM

Oh I don't think so Shaw - as far as topics historical go, you just need a bit of schooling - this time actually do some work and listen, leaving your socialist ideology at the door before you start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:02 PM

pinochet non-political? that is weird . so why would he and the americans object to the leftist allende government? why do the americans object to any positive system in the americas and globally? dictators - fascist or not- are ok as long as they trade with the neo liberal americans.....actually i can't be arsed to go on. shock doctrine/ smash the state/ chicago boys ultra right wing capitalist ideology started with pinochet and onto reagan and thatcher and so on to the death throes of that sick and depressing system we see today.

but that isn't why i came on here.....brexit? not going to happen is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:10 PM

No, seriously. You do need help. It's been obvious for a while.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:14 PM

But let us study the march of Carroll aided and abetted by Shaw and his pals:

1: It started with Shaw wondering how the good people of would view him and his Euros once the UK leaves the EU. My opinion was that he, and his Euros would as welcome as they were before (Mind you if Corbyn gets into No.10 the pound will tank so much that if Shaw drags himself to Madeira he'll hardly have any Euros at all - he could give lectures on "flocking grouse")

2: I mentioned that the Anglo-Portuguese alliance was the oldest treaty in existence which prompted Carroll into a rant about Salazar being a fascist. That led to the revelation that Salazar actually jailed fascists in Portugal so all of a sudden Salazar was dropped and Franco and Pinochet appeared on the scene.

3: We were then all astounded to here that Augusto Pinochet was the mentor of Margaret Thatcher would you believe (I didn't and don't) But neither Carroll, Shaw or any of the other "usual suspects" could pinpoint at what time this mentoring commenced. After repeatedly failing to provide that information Pinochet rather embarrassingly dropped out of the equation, much like Salazar - So now we are left with Franco and fortunately it would appear that Shaw is running out of steam on that one as well.

Fransico Franco: A conservative and a monarchist, he opposed the abolition of the monarchy and the establishment of a socialist secular republic in 1931. Franco won the Spanish Civil War that started in 1936 as a result of a failed coup by the military and from 1939 he pursued a policy of neutrality and isolationism. He established a military dictatorship, which he defined as a totalitarian state. Communists and left-wing critics called his regime "fascist", but academics typically categorize it as conservative and authoritarian. The regime changed its policies in the mid 1950s and due to those changes Spain became the second-fastest growing economy in the world between 1959 and 1973, just behind Japan. This broadly based economic boom was known as "The Spanish Miracle". During the 1960s, the wealthy classes of Francoist Spain experienced further increases in wealth, particularly those who remained politically faithful, while a burgeoning middle class became visible as the "economic miracle" progressed. International firms established factories in Spain, State-owned firms like the car manufacturer SEAT, truck builder Pegaso and oil refiner INH, massively expanded production. By the time of Franco's death in 1975, Spain still lagged behind most of Western Europe but the gap between its per capita GDP and that of the leading Western European countries had narrowed greatly, and the country had developed a large industrialised economy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM

From: peteaberdeen - PM
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:02 PM
but that isn't why i came on here.....brexit? not going to happen is it?


If it doesn't happen it is the biggest failure of democracy in the UK.

You may not want Brexit, but I, and the majority of those who were prepared to vote, do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM

Probably not, Pete. We live in hope. By the way, whilst I know that wars are dirty,
perhaps Bill should look up how many deaths Franco was responsible for in the six years AFTER the end of the Civil War. While he's at it, he could look at the manner of those deaths. Make sure you consult the right experts, Bill. When you've done the exercise, perhaps you would come back and tell us whether you still think that Franco wasn't a fascist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM

as far as the pinochet being thatcher's 'mentor' thing goes....as i understand it (mostly from naomi klein's 'shock doctrine' ) milton friedman and the 'chicago school of economics came up with the idea of 'disaster capitalism' where ruthless tactics were to be employed to 'repair' 'damage' done in countries such as chile that had tried to institute progressive change and a more egalitarian, state control based society. (just think of the damage being done to destabilise and run down our NHS these days - so that the 'only' answer is more privatisation) anyway, the shock doctrine was first used by pinochet with covert assistance from the CIA and then a strict crackdown on any dissent and the implementation of a fundamentalist monetarist regime. while pinochet may not, strictly speaking, have been a 'mentor' to thatcher and reagan they wholeheartedly bought into the sort of tactics used in chile to destabilise a progressive state, privatise and confront unions and other groups interested in equality, liberalism (in the old fashioned sense) or socialism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:32 PM

brexit is not going to happen because there is hardly anyone worth listening to in parliament with the interest, ability or application to take the shaky concept forward. many are opposed and most of the rest are ambivalent. i'd say that apart from a sizable minority of tory backbenchers everyone is embarrassed and just waiting for the thing to die a slow death before someone has the guts to apologise to our european friends and we can all get back to proper business instead of obsessing about something that no-one really understands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:37 PM

brexit? not going to happen is it?

Wanna bet?

Anyone seen as trying to prevent Brexit from happening politically will be toast as far as the electorate of the UK is concerned. The way the EU Commissioners and the Germans and the French are posturing it would not surprise me at all if we opt for The "No Deal is better than a Bad Deal" Option In that scenario the EU loses one of it's best customers and the "Divorce Settlement" the EU keeps harping on about is reduced to zero. If they then wish to pile tariffs on our goods, we pile tariff's on theirs as they sell more to us we profit from their short-sightedness, their businesses hurt more than ours as we are free to trade with the world they are not. Meanwhile they have to fund the shortfall created by us leaving, problems in Greece have not gone away, Macron's honeymoon in France is well and truly over, Merkel will be put firmly in the picture by German industry and nobody has got a clue what will happen in Spain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:47 PM

i can't see anyone actively trying to prevent it happening, they will just get bored of the complexity of it. no-one is scared of upsetting the UKIPs anymore. brexit has always been about divisions in the tory party more than anything and now - really, who cares what happens to the tory party? it's funny of course, but is getting very boring too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:49 PM

I'm with you in sentiment, Pete, though perhaps a tad less optimistic. The easy slogan is that no brexit would result from a democratic sellout. I know it isn't like that. But easy slogans ("take back control") have a habit of winning the day. I have a nasty feeling that we may have to rely on cockup after cockup by the shower that's running our show and who the EU is laughing at daily. Mind you, that's quite likely...

Pinochet regime? Democracy overthrown, thousands killed, thousands disappeared, hundreds of thousands exiled, no dissidence tolerated. So not a fascist then. Just a bit of a conservative chappie really...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:50 PM

Brexit itself is the biggest 'failure of democracy' in the UK's political history.

A fatally flawed referendum which...

a) required only a simple majority, rather than the standard 60/40 usually required in 'once-and-for-all' referendums of this kind,

b) was only 'advisory' - clearly stated in the Referendum Bill and its supporting documentation - but treated as 'compulsory.

c) was campaigned by the 'Leave' team on the basis of bare-faced lies (£350 million a week for the NHS (there isn't and won't be), stop immigration (we can't),'Take Back Control' which we never gave up, yadda yadda).

The one and only reason the government are driving us over the precipice of a Hard Brexit, with no agreement in place, is so that a small cabal of immensely wealthy Tories and Tory Party donors (who, in fact, control Tory policy, despite several of them not even being British, or resident here) can avoid being subject to the new EU Tax-Avoidance/Evasion Regulations which come into force in May 2019.

And, as always, it'll be the ordinary people who will suffer the consequences, whilst the rich get even richer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:52 PM

Excellent resume of the current situation and outlook for the future Teribus. T agree 100% and would be delighted to see our negotiators pull out completely
The "running in" period is quite unnecessary and a sop to the obstructionists.

"Walk away Renee"


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:30 PM

Good heavens Shaw!!!! Just looked!!!! And the similarities between what Franco did to secure his regime and country against reactionary counter-revolution and what Lenin and Stalin did are amazing!!! Does that make him a Communist???

We have the Parliamentary democracy we enjoy today because of actions taken by Oliver Cromwell who ruled as a complete and utter despot - yet he is known as the "Father of British Democracy" that is why his statue stands outside the House of Commons, while the statues of other notables stand in Parliament Square.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:38 PM

Backwardsman, I believe that Cameron gave the solemn undertaking that he and his government would abide by and act in accordance with the wishes of the electorate with regard to the EU referendum - that made it binding.

ALL the major political parties WITHOUT EXCEPTION campaigned for the REMAIN side. ALL thought that there was not the remotest chance on earth that LEAVE would prove to be the majority vote. They were wrong.

I will say this for you - you have perfect 20x20 hindsight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:17 PM

I don't claim 20-20 hindsight, and certainly far less than that when predicting the future, but this dream of all sorts of beneficial deals with the rest of the world seems very unlikely to me. Some runes people might like to consider are things like these Financial Times articles of October 5, 2017:

* Trump opposes EU-UK agri-deal in blow to Brexit plans
* Tariffs and energetic protection of US trade is the American way

(The second article makes the point that it is not just Trump who thinks this way)

The Financial Times runs a paywall scheme, so I can't simply link to the articles, but the titles are clear enough, and if you are interested enough I am sure you can find a physical copy or join for a modest fee.

Back in July when Trump said he saw a great trade deal with Britain, he did not necessarily mean we would like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:23 PM

Wrong again, Terriblyboring. The briefing paper on the Bill states quite clearly that the result will be advisory only. It is not within the PM's power to amend it unilaterally, it requires Parliamentary approval.

Cameron took it upon himself to ignore those provisions. The High Court ruled in November that a referendum can only ever be advisory. Therefore it was never within Cameron's (or May's) power to declare it binding. They chose to accept the result, they were not bound by it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:27 PM

I think the dream of the Brexiteers of getting 'great trade deals' with the US has been dealt a serious blow by the imposition of a 300% tariff on the aircraft which Delta were to purchase from Bombardier in NI, applied for by Boeing, who don't even build the class of aircraft that Delta ordered from Bombardier.

The Shape of Things to Come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 06:30 PM

Great analysis, John, especially in your 03.50 pm post. The chickens are truly coming home to roost now that May and her sorry team have shown themselves to be thoroughly incompetent and are, in consequence, the laughing stock of the whole EU. Be very afraid. We're stuffed.

Billybully boy, I'm totally not interested in your yah-boo schoolyard comparisons between known fascists such as Franco and Pinochet and Stalin/Lenin (for whom I have no time whatsoever). That's your attempt to fudge. Look at Franco and Pinochet on their own terms. Both murderous authoritarians (have you looked at those numbers yet?) who brooked no opposition. The epitome of fascism. Whatever Stalin/Lenin got up to does not impact on that at all. You don't get to justify atrocities merely by highlighting someone else's. You don't let off little Jimmy for stealing little Maisie's crisps just because little Johnny looked up little Amy's skirt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 02:00 AM

A but Shaw the point you are missing is that the following were all leaders of the political parties that they used to propelled them to the positions of power they held:

Lenin
Stalin
Mussolini
Hitler

The same cannot be said of:

Oliver Cromwell
Salazar
Franco
Pinochet

They all did what they thought they had to do to secure and save their countries from what they saw as an internal threat, only the ones detailed in the first group felt the need to export their violence and ideals outside of their own borders.

On the EU referendum Backwardsman:

Gordon Brown made a promise to the electorate of the UK regarding a referendum on the EU and reneged on it.

David Cameron made a promise to the electorate of the UK regarding a referendum on the EU and honoured it.

Of the two I prefer by far the type of politicians who honour their promises to the electorate while in power - there is a basic honesty and integrity demonstrated in doing that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 03:21 AM

I know threads go where they will, but all this is a long way from Post Brexit life in the UK. Talking about the past is easier, even if opinions differ, but it can be a way of avoiding talking about the future, which is after the point of this thread. So let's some comments about the future: who will be the Conservative leader in six months time? How will that affect Post Brexit life, if at all? Is the US position on the aeroplanes and agribusiness a one off or will they take advantage of the UK? Let's have some solid predictions that we can look at a year after separation where we can say whether they were right or wrong. The vaguaries of Nostrodamus are unsuitable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 03:21 AM

Hmmm, a standard response from Pte. Parts - present him with accurate facts in the face of his nonsensical bluster, and he starts moving the goalposts around in a vain effort to 'win'.

Sorry, squaddie - in the immortal words of your dopey mate from Hertford, "You lose".

Now fuck off and Blanco your puttees, or paint the coal white, or whatever they give thick squaddies to fill their time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 03:57 AM

See your contribution is down at your consistent and dismally low level Backwardsman. What bluster? Please point it out. You won't because everything I have contributed to this thread, every detail I have given has been factually correct. The "fact" that you cannot challenge or refute anything I have said is your problem not mine and I guess that you will have to live with that, absolutely no skin off my nose at all. If you wish to demonstrate to the world and it's dog that you are an ill-informed, offensive, inarticulate oaf please feel free. You are only letting yourself down.

Addressing DmcG's post re - comments about the future:

1: "who will be the Conservative leader in six months time?"

Unless the Parliamentary Conservative Party want to be out of office in quick time the leader of the Conservative Party in six months time will be Theresa May. But strictly according to the comments you requested in six months time we will still be in the EU.

2: "How will that affect Post Brexit life, if at all?"

Not one iota.

3: "Is the US position on the aeroplanes and agribusiness a one off or will they take advantage of the UK?"

Definitely one offs and even they are not cast in stone. Things change all the time. They will take advantage of us just as much as we will take advantage of them, that is the nature of ANY trading agreement. One thing though that is certain Post-Brexit - The UK will manage to negotiate a trade deal with ANY country quicker than the 27 remaining countries of the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:02 AM

If you say the referendum result was only advisory, then what do you think the outcome would have been had it been ignored? Do you not think a Catalonian outcome on steroids might have been an expected outcome?
What is the point of a democratic vote if the result is ignored, or is democracy for the remainders different to that of the leavers.
The post above is a typical example of remainders having run out of any kind of rational argument-so once again go all out to have the thread cancelled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:14 AM

. They will take advantage of us just as much as we will take advantage of them, that is the nature of ANY trading agreement. 

I would put it differently: They will take ATTEMPT to advantage of us just as much as we will ATTEMPT to take advantage of them

Which of you succeeds is down to your relative strength. So one side could be on the losing side most of the time. It is not a case of it all balancing out in the end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:22 AM

Be afraid Brexiteers, be very afraid.


This lady is not for turning?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM

No Iains, I don't say the referendum was advisory, the Referendum Bill itself says it was advisory only, and this was ratified by the High Court judgment in November.

Unfortunately, although anyone who cared to actually read the Bill would have been aware of it, it was not made clear to the electorate that it was 'advisory only', and the problem was compounded when the idiot Cameron made a promise which was not within his power to make. No politician, even the PM, can override a Bill passed by Parliament - sovereignty rests with Parliament, not with the PM.

Had the advisory nature of the Referendum been made absolutely clear prior to the vote, and given the tiny majority in the result - not far from a dead-heat - I can see no reason why there should have been a 'Catalonian outcome on steroids'.

And, of course, the terms of the referendum were seriously flawed. Had the idiot Cameron couched the Referendum Bill in the standard terms of reference for a referendum in the UK - i.e. requiring a 60/40 majority rather than a simple majority - the result would have been a victory for the Remain campaign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:46 AM

ROTFLMAO! I missed that last one, Pte Parts.

So, having been presented with facts which, as usual, you fail to respond properly to, and moving the goalposts and being called out on that piece of deceit, you now try to play the victim in a vain effort to secure the high moral ground.

I don't need to say any more - everyone on this forum knows you, they know your MO, they know you for what you are.

I quote your henchman again..."You lose".


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:09 PM

I'd love to know what facts I was presented with Backwardsman - I have re-read the posts and the only thing I was presented with were opinions.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to which of those opinions you regard as being facts. I know that you will not do this, you and your pals never, ever back up the ludicrous statements that you tend to make.

Please don't say the fact that the referendum wasn't binding - Had ANYBODY in the political establishment of the UK in any of the MAJOR Parties ignored the result of the EU Referendum there would have been an uproar that would have wakened the dead and that Party would have ceased to exist at the very next election - every politician in the UK has acknowledged that as being the case which Is why the triggering of Article 50, and everything to do with Brexit has gone through Parliament as easily as it has. Get used to it Backwards - we are leaving the EU.

Pte Parts, how droll how long did it take you come up with that one? Oh of course, it's not yours at all is it, probably copied from someone else, who does have an original thought in their head. Way off target in any case Backwards - I was never in the Army and I was never a Squaddie.

As for moving goalposts? That was your pals Shaw and Carroll, but it didn't do them any good. What piece of deceit are you referring to?

DMcG - 08 Oct 17 - 04:14 AM - I'd tend to agree, more or less, but nothing is that clear cut and the process is one of flexible give and take as time goes by. Doesn't alter the truth of the point that the UK will ratify international trade agreements far quicker than the 27 member state EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:17 PM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM
No Iains, I don't say the referendum was advisory, the Referendum Bill itself says it was advisory only, and this was ratified by the High Court judgment in November.


Not quite. The high court made clear that the referendum was only advisory as the Act setting it up did not state that it would be legally binding. Although the lack of such a statement meant that the referendum was not legally binding, that does not match up with your claim that the Referendum Bill itself says it was advisory only


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM

Doesn't alter the truth of the point that the UK will ratify international trade agreements far quicker than the 27 member state EU.

Since it is a single voice rather than 27, almost certainly that's right. But a poor agreement entered into quickly is not as good as a better one entered into slowly. So I would say negotiating strength is more important than speed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:44 PM

How an we negotiate terms with people who have no wish to negotiate?
The rules of the EU are set in stone and it was always going to be the case that we leave unilaterally or sell out the people who voted to leave and won the referendum.
Not only do the EU not want to negotiate in a meaningful way beneficial to both parties, but they simply cannot allow us to leave with a reasonable deal.
The UK will never countenance any return to "Free movement" and that policy is integral to the survival of the EU.

We will have no option after the posturing, other to walk away into a better and more democratic future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:04 PM

We are either shackled to a very "protectionist" trading block consisting of 27 countries with an extremely sluggish economy where we buy more from them than they do from us. Or we trade with the rest of the world, where in certain areas their growth rates far exceed the EU.

Switzerland and Singapore have concluded more foreign trade deals in the past three decades than the EU. You seem to approach this as though all was well within the EU - nothing could be further from the truth. Why do you automatically assume any deal we make will be bad? Doesn't make sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:23 PM

Why do you automatically assume any deal we make will be bad? Doesn't make sense.

I don't. But nor do I assume a deal will automatically be good. And the little evidence we have so far is not encouraging.   One of the Financial Times articles I referred to was also published in the Irish Times (which rather makes a mess of their paywall ideas, but that's not my problem). Here is an extract:

"But the US joined other major agricultural exporters including Argentina, Brazil and New Zealand in signing a letter sent last week to the EU and UK?s WTO ambassadors objecting to the plan to split the quotas that cover everything from New Zealand butter and lamb to US poultry and wheat."

So it is not just the US who will be twisting arms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:38 PM

Our economic growth and our productivity is a damn sight more sluggish than the main players in tbe EU and we haven?t even started yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 07:36 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:38 PM
Our economic growth and our productivity is a damn sight more sluggish than the main players in tbe EU and we haven?t even started yet.


A totally crap comment.
"We haven't started yet."
What is it you claim we haven't started?
We haven't started productivity?
We haven't started 'growing' our productivity?
We haven't started the process necessary to escape from the EU?

Please, a little clarity in your writing would enable people to have a reasonable discussion. But perhaps that is not what you want.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 07:52 PM

We haven?t even started on the unstoppable downhill slide into economic oblivion that brexit, if it ever happens, has forced us into. We?re in shit street already, as I explained, but we ain?t seen nuthin? yet. Hope this helps, Nigel. If you apply in writing I?d be quite happy to provide my views in words not exceeding one syllable. I do know how hard it is for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 02:43 AM

Shaw - "Hope this helps, Nigel. If you apply in writing I?d be quite happy to provide my views in words not exceeding one syllable. I do know how hard it is for you." - In case it has escaped your notice so far, on numerous threads Nigel Parsons has been running circles round you and your views. Best buck up lad, you are so far astern in his wake it is becoming embarrassing for you and your chums.

Britain's economic performance is slower than the EU's ? Depending on what time frame?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 04:00 AM

"Our economic growth and our productivity is a damn sight more sluggish than the main players in tbe EU and we haven?t even started yet."

By any metric the UK ranks in the first three economies in the EU. How can we be more sluggish in our growth and productivity than ourselves?
Try gargling with cheap plonk instead of swallowing by the case load shaw. It may help you remain lucid!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 04:12 AM

this may be a slight post drift but i was reading this morning about army recruits being at least 18. seems obvious enough but why not think radically - army recruits should be at least 60 year old and paid a proper wage instead of having to rely on a pension. generally, young people are more inclined to get on with many people from abroad and like the opportunities that a more integrated europe (and the world) offers - it seems cruel to be encouraging them to fight their friends. this would also solve the problem of old folk feeling lonely and lacking purpose - so many these days have nowt better to do than bicker and insult each other online.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 04:34 AM

Leave the armed forces out of it, peteaberdeen, and there is perhaps more merit in that idea than first appears. Isolation and lack of a sense of purpose is indeed a serious issue for many who are retired.

But that's for another thread, I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:14 AM

...UK economy was the weakest in Europe in the first quarter of 2017. The UK?s large Continental peers ? Germany, France ? grew by 0.6 per cent and 0.4 per cent respectively. Britain?s 0.2 per cent expansion in the three months to March put it at the bottom of the EU league table. The UK had the lowest GDP growth rate in the European Union in the first quarter of 2017, according to the European statistics agency Eurostat.

Britain?s 0.2 per cent expansion in the three months to March, down sharply from the 0.7 per cent growth in the final quarter of 2016, put it at the bottom of the EU league table.

The UK?s large Continental peers ? Germany, France ? grew by 0.6 per cent and 0.4 per cent respectively. Reports last week suggested Italy?s economy had grown by 0.2 per cent in the first quarter ? equal to the UK. But Eurostat now puts Italy?s growth at 0.4 per cent. Even Greece, which has endured years of depression, grew faster than the UK, with its economy expanding by 0.4 per cent.

Data is not yet available for Malta, Luxembourg and Ireland, but given those economies grew at a quarterly rate of 1.7 per cent, 1.3 per cent and 2.5 per cent respectively in the final quarter of 2016 it would take a remarkable collapse for them to come below the UK.
(Independent, June 7 2017)

According to Expert Market, which looked at the productivity of the 35 biggest economies, the UK came in at 16th, below every major EU economy except for Spain and Italy.(Independent, July 16 2016), way below Sweden, Ireland, Germany, France, Denmark, the Netherlands, Finland and Austria.

But sez Iains, (clearly blinded by his obsessive need to hurl insults), "By any metric the UK ranks in the first three economies in the EU. How can we be more sluggish in our growth and productivity than ourselves?"

Ah, those damned facts, Iains, always getting in the way, aren't they? What "metric" were you using? The length of bananas or the straightness of cucumbers by any chance?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:24 AM

We haven?t even started on the unstoppable downhill slide into economic oblivion that brexit, if it ever happens, has forced us into.
That is clearly your personal opinion. You do not see this country as being capable of dealing with the future, possible, consequences. A lovely mixture of tenses there. I assume you meant ?will have forced us into? as you are writing about possible future consequences.

We?re in shit street already, as I explained, but we ain?t seen nuthin? yet.
You have explained no such thing. You have just propounded your own personal view, with no reasonable explanation given.

Hope this helps, Nigel. If you apply in writing I?d be quite happy to provide my views in words not exceeding one syllable. I do know how hard it is for you.
Feel free to write monosyllabically. It may help your comprehension.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:41 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:45 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:14 AM
...UK economy was the weakest in Europe in the first quarter of 2017. The UK?s large Continental peers ? Germany, France ? grew by 0.6 per cent and 0.4 per cent respectively. Britain?s 0.2 per cent expansion in the three months to March put it at the bottom of the EU league table. The UK had the lowest GDP growth rate in the European Union in the first quarter of 2017, according to the European statistics agency Eurostat.

A selective set of stats, as it only covers a 3 month period, which may not be representative.

The Guardian also gives these figures, but goes on to state:
However, in year-on-year terms the UK was closer to the EU performance and ahead of the 19-nation eurozone. After a strong second half to 2016, when the economy defied predictions of a post-referendum slump, UK GDP was still 2% bigger in the first quarter of 2017 than a year earlier. The EU?s economy was 2.1% bigger on the year while the eurozone was up 1.9%.

And before I get cited as also using selective statements, The Guardian does go on to predict lower figures for UK for 2017/2018.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:52 AM

Read my last post, study the predictions then come back and explain to the thread how we're not up shit creek sans paddle, Nigel. It's been my opinion since the referendum was announced and it's coming true, even though we're nowhere near the dreaded March 2019 date yet. Productivity in the doldrums, weak growth, a collapsing pound leading to inflation and a consequent drop in living standards, food banks more popular than ever, NHS up the Swanee, the country rudderless in the hands of a feckless, inept laughing stock. Apart from that, hunkydory, eh, Nigel? Of course these things are all just opinions. We know that bad things are just round the corner; we just don't know yet how bad. Your head's in the sand, Nigel. Maybe you're scrabbling around bitterly down there to find some more grammatical inelegances with which to slap me. Good luck!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:54 AM

Not the empty one, though you'll be telling me any minute now that it makes more sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:25 AM

"We know that bad things are just round the corner"
Oh the bells of hell go ting aling aling, for you but not for me........


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:44 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:52 AM
Read my last post, study the predictions then come back and explain to the thread how we're not up shit creek sans paddle, Nigel.


I had already read that post, and it is that which I was referring to as being 'selective'.
As for "study the predictions", I've just re-read the post, and can see none. You may wish to clarify what (in the following quote) you consider to have been 'predictions'.
...UK economy was the weakest in Europe in the first quarter of 2017. The UK?s large Continental peers ? Germany, France ? grew by 0.6 per cent and 0.4 per cent respectively. Britain?s 0.2 per cent expansion in the three months to March put it at the bottom of the EU league table. The UK had the lowest GDP growth rate in the European Union in the first quarter of 2017, according to the European statistics agency Eurostat.

Britain?s 0.2 per cent expansion in the three months to March, down sharply from the 0.7 per cent growth in the final quarter of 2016, put it at the bottom of the EU league table.

The UK?s large Continental peers ? Germany, France ? grew by 0.6 per cent and 0.4 per cent respectively. Reports last week suggested Italy?s economy had grown by 0.2 per cent in the first quarter ? equal to the UK. But Eurostat now puts Italy?s growth at 0.4 per cent. Even Greece, which has endured years of depression, grew faster than the UK, with its economy expanding by 0.4 per cent.

Data is not yet available for Malta, Luxembourg and Ireland, but given those economies grew at a quarterly rate of 1.7 per cent, 1.3 per cent and 2.5 per cent respectively in the final quarter of 2016 it would take a remarkable collapse for them to come below the UK. (Independent, June 7 2017)

According to Expert Market, which looked at the productivity of the 35 biggest economies, the UK came in at 16th, below every major EU economy except for Spain and Italy.(Independent, July 16 2016), way below Sweden, Ireland, Germany, France, Denmark, the Netherlands, Finland and Austria.

But sez Iains, (clearly blinded by his obsessive need to hurl insults), "By any metric the UK ranks in the first three economies in the EU. How can we be more sluggish in our growth and productivity than ourselves?"

Ah, those damned facts, Iains, always getting in the way, aren't they? What "metric" were you using? The length of bananas or the straightness of cucumbers by any chance?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:31 AM

Read my last post and study the predictions are separate injunctions. Read the post, which is nowhere near as selective as you claim (unless you'd care to tell me which bits unfavourable to my argument are missing), then read the predictions about the future performance of our economy supplied by other sources not quoted by me. They are out there. Happy to clarify.

Here's one from the IMF (Guardian report, 24 July):

The International Monetary Fund has cut its growth forecast for the UK economy this year after a weak performance in the first three months of 2017.

In its first downgrade for the UK since the EU referendum in June last year, the IMF said it expected the British economy to expand by 1.7% this year, 0.3 points lower than when it last made predictions in April.

The Fund raised its forecasts for the UK after the Brexit vote as a result of the much stronger than envisaged activity in the second half of 2016. In October 2016, it pencilled in growth of 1.1% for 2017, raising this forecast to 1.5% in January this year and to 2% in April.

Maurice Obstfeld, the IMF?s economic counsellor, pointed to a marked change in early 2017. He said the UK?s growth forecast had been lowered based on its ?tepid performance? so far this year, adding: ?The ultimate impact of Brexit on the United Kingdom remains unclear.?

The IMF left its growth forecast for the UK in 2018 unchanged at 1.5% but said one key risk facing the global economy was that the Brexit talks would end in failure.

It contrasted its gloomier outlook for the UK with a rosier forecast for the rest of the EU, with 2017 growth upgrades for the four biggest eurozone countries ? Germany, France, Italy and Spain.

Germany has been revised up by 0.2 points to 1.8%, France by 0.1 points to 1.5%, while Italy and Spain have both been revised up by 0.5 points to 1.3% and 3.1% respectively.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM

A bit more, Nigel? This stuff is dead easy to find. From July.

LONDON (Reuters) - Britain?s economy is likely to lose momentum in the second half of 2017, according to a closely watched survey that could disappoint some Bank of England officials who want to raise interest rates for the first time in a decade.

Sterling dipped after Wednesday?s Markit/CIPS survey showed growth across British services companies fell to a four-month low in June.

Although the survey suggested the economy recovered some speed in the second quarter and probably expanded at a quarterly pace of around 0.4 percent, double the pace of the weak first quarter, there were some ominous signals in the PMI?s forward-looking gauges.

Business expectations sank to their weakest level since last July?s dip after the vote to leave the European Union, and it was not far off lows last reached in late 2011. Growth in new orders hit a nine-month low.

The headline index edged down to a four-month low of 53.4 in June from 53.8 in May, just shy of a forecast for 53.5 in a Reuters poll of economists.

On Tuesday BoE rate-setter Michael Saunders said he was ?reasonably confident? that lower consumer spending will be offset by higher exports and investment, justifying his vote to raise interest rates from a record low 0.25 percent.

?But the latest PMI survey pours some cold water on that hypothesis,? said JPMorgan economist Allan Monks.

?Indeed, it is worth highlighting that the weakness in the UK PMI comes at a time when the broader European PMIs have strengthened considerably.?

The mood among services firms was probably hit by uncertainty after June?s election, in which Prime Minister Theresa May gambled away her parliamentary majority, and by Brexit talks, as well as the economic outlook, IHS Markit said.

A third monthly drop in car sales in June -- albeit from recent record highs -- underlined the slowdown among consumers.

Separate official data showed productivity, arguably Britain?s biggest economic problem over the last decade, fell in the first three months of the year -- the first decline since late 2015.

The latest productivity data further complicates the outlook for BoE policymakers. Although weak productivity reduces the scope for future wage growth, it goes hand-in-hand with higher inflation.

?Unless more is done to tackle the nation?s low productivity, people?s wages and living standards will continue to fall and the UK will be ill-equipped to compete once we do leave the EU,? said Ian Brinkley, acting chief economist at the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development.

.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:41 AM

I already stated exactly why I believed it to be 'selective':
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:14 AM
...UK economy was the weakest in Europe in the first quarter of 2017. The UK?s large Continental peers ? Germany, France ? grew by 0.6 per cent and 0.4 per cent respectively. Britain?s 0.2 per cent expansion in the three months to March put it at the bottom of the EU league table. The UK had the lowest GDP growth rate in the European Union in the first quarter of 2017, according to the European statistics agency Eurostat.
A selective set of stats, as it only covers a 3 month period, which may not be representative>/b>.


Your latest posted statistics, which you equate with UK being in 'shit street' show the latest forecasts for growth in the coming year: UK 1.5% Germany 1.8% France 1.5% Italy 1.3% Spain 3.1%
So, well behind Spain (but so are the rest), Slightly behind Germany, level with France and slightly ahead of Italy.
The figures hardly supports your contentions then, do they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:53 AM

I posted two lengthy extracts from credible sources (others are available) to support my opinion. Now it's you being selective. Take it or leave it, Nigel. The general picture is that this country is in trouble and that things are likely to get worse. If you can really find a cheery economic forecast, let's be having it. You're being tiresome. Move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:43 AM

The country is not "in trouble", but the negativity spread by the remoaners and their trough licking friends in parliament make negotiation more difficult. The EU side perceive us as divided and therefore weakened.
As I said before we will almost certainly have to walk away from the negotiations and though we will still trade with Europe when they come crawling back, the time scale will be longer in setting up arrangements......and it will be the fault of those who cannot, for reasons of ideology or greed, accept the result of a democratic vote and put their efforts into making our country stronger and more independent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:46 AM

Spring 2017 economic forecast. Not quite tha same as Shaw's. IN fact the UK looks quite good for 2018.
In terms of the four leading EU economies growth GDP growth %yoy:
             2015   2016    2017    2018

UK          2.2    1.8    1.8    1.3

France       1.3    1.2    1.4    1.7

Germany      1.7    1.9    1.4    1.9

Italy       0.8    0.9    0.9    1.1

Gloom and Doom? Don't think so! From the EU hoss's mouth no less. Nought to do with bent bananas or dodgy cucumbers you stupid boy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:55 AM

They?re not good news, though, are they, insulter-in-chief? And no comment from you I see about our dismal standing in tbe league tables, with which you can?t argue. What was that you were saying about our being in the first three ?by any metric??


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 11:21 AM

?The country is not "in trouble", but the negativity spread by the remoaners and their trough licking friends in parliament make negotiation more difficult. The EU side perceive us as divided and therefore weakened.?

The country is divided because a very divisive referendum campaign, with misrepresentations or downright lies propagated by both sides, yielded a result that was split almost down the middle. It is not undemocratic to try to get a disastrous decision reversed. In fact, that?s what democracy?s all about. Brexit is by no means a done deal and you have no right to keep castigating ?remoaners? for exercising their peaceful democratic right to oppose what we think is an impending catastrophe. The other 27, spearheaded by Germany, are not going to be coming back crawling. In fact, and they are increasingly coming to realise this, they could be better off without us, which is why the EU bigwigs are sitting there obstinately giving us nothing. They know they don?t have to. Ever since Maggie?s days we?ve been the pain in the arse standing outside pissing in, getting rebates, not joining the euro or Schengen and demanding all sorts of other exemptions. And, in case you?ve forgotten, we were the sick man of Europe before we joined the EEC and in our first few years of membership, enduring devaluation, a rotten economy, an IMF bailout and the three-day week. We are as strong as we are today not because we are still a mighty global force as the Blimps would like us to believe but because we?ve been a member of the EU. And now the EU is doing a damn sight better than we are ?by any metric? and we are increasingly looking like we?re limping behind. And you ain?t seen nothing yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 11:47 AM

And what was the reason for the three day week? Striking coal miners.
Hardly any wonder the magnificent Thatcher broke their back as soon as the opportunity presented itself. Government rules countries, not unions. Clot corbyn has yet to discover this very basic fact of life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM

The country is divided because a very divisive referendum campaign, with misrepresentations or downright lies propagated by both sides, yielded a result that was split almost down the middle. It is not undemocratic to try to get a disastrous decision reversed.
No, it?s not. But for the majority, it was not a disastrous decision.

Ever since Maggie?s days we?ve been the pain in the arse standing outside pissing in, getting rebates, not joining the euro or Schengen and demanding all sorts of other exemptions.
Not quite, it was in ?Maggie?s days? that we got the rebate agreed.
Since that time Tony Blair conceded part of the rebate in exchange for a promise of a review of the CAP, which was never forthcoming, but the EU retained the benefit of the reduced rebate.

The EU has been taking advantage of UK for almost 50 years. It is hard for them to give that up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 11:57 AM

A silly post with little relevance to what we?re discussing. We were seen as the sick man of Europe because of years of poor economic performance involving enforced devaluation and an IMF bailout. Certainly, poor industrial relations were also viewed from afar as contributing to the problems. It takes two sides to have relations and those of us who lived through that were all too aware of Heath?s inept administration. Thanks for all those threshold pay increases though, Ted! With those coupled with the Houghton report my salary doubled in 18 months when the country couldn?t afford it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:01 PM

That was directed at Iains.

Nigel, you have no point to make about the timing of the rebate. There was nothing inaccurate about my statement. If this kind of nitpicking is really the best you can do it doesn?t say much for your depth of understanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:01 PM

Quotes from Steve Shaw:
SS: 1.         As Dubya said, the trouble with the French is that they haven't even got a WORD for "entrepreneur" in their language
2.         I KNOW he didn?t actually say it,


NP: No need to argue with him any more. He?s arguing with himself

SS: I was being whimsical. Anyone normal here would have seen that. Dubya didn?t wave at Stevie Wonder either. It?s what we do to politicians, Nigel. Had I said it about a Saudi king my head and torso would now be in separate rooms. So I love to say stupid things about Dubya because I can. I find it devilishly amusing and I don?t expect anyone to think I?m telling the literal truth. Now move on, Nigel. You?ve flogged it to death. They do that in some non-democracies too. Un-po that long face of yours, otherwise it?ll set that way. I wonder whether that?s true...

NP: You may see me as 'po faced'. And say that you were being whimsical. But you put it forward as a statement (no emoticons, or other signals to suggest that you didn't believe what you were saying).
How many of the 'facts' that you propound in other threads are also your 'whimsy'?
Presumably there is no point disagreeing with you about anything, as once you are proved wrong you'll just say you never really meant it.

I think your credibility is well and truly self-scuppered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:04 PM

Move on, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:44 PM

This is a sobering insight into what we can expect:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eu-negotiator-europe-euratom-airline-safety-negotiations-theresa-may-worse-anyone-guessed-a7858586.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:23 PM

You have to laugh sometimes. The BBC is reporting Contingency plans in case the UK has to leave the EU with no deal in place are "well under way", a minister has said.

Dominic Raab said while the UK had to "strive for the very best outcome" from Brexit negotiations, it had to "prepare for all eventualities".


Yes, I agree, very sensible. Plan for all eventualities, good idea. Including a possible run on the pound, perhaps? After all, that is something other people decide, not you, so it is only sensible to plan for it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:28 PM

Whimsical=capricious=given to sudden and unaccountable changes of mood or behaviour.

Oh dear-by his own admission he has totally lost the plot. Time to move in and just ignore the ramblings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:54 PM

DmCG The run on the pound occured immediately after the Referendum vote.

The pound has consistently traded at 10% lower against the Dollar and 15% below against the Euro since the vote.

There are few, if any, signs of it recovering those losses in the near future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 02:24 PM

True, Raggy, but the reference was to the shock! Horror! when Labour said fairly recently it was one of the things they wargamed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 02:54 PM

given that it is overwhelmingly older people who wish to leave and pursue this aggressive stance towards our friends and neighbours (and common sense) (and maintain trident etc) we really should get them enlisted to the military. and in a long overdue radical change of policy we should only allow women under 30 to decide if we are going to unleash our aging war heroes on some unfortunate (ex-empire?) foe)

any over 60s on here willing to sign up to give young people a break for once?

mind you,during the last election campaign i was talking to some squaddies at a sign up to kill foreigners stall in workington. 'if you vote for jeremy corbyn you won't have to fight so many nasty wars in the desert' - 'i want to fight wars, nastier the better' you can't argue with that i suppose


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:27 PM

I did get your reference, DMcG, and thought it was a great post. Just a touch of whimsy, I know, but be careful who you mention it to. In the immortal words of Basil, I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:47 PM

I remember the last big run in Wilsons time when they tried to sabotage his govt.
Surely you don't want to see a repeat of that for ideological reasons "D"?
These things can be overcome, the future is wide open, we just need to be bold and work together. Negativity and division will only make the final outcome harder to attain and the poorest in society will suffer.
The status quo is no longer available, though almost everyone here has a stake in keeping it.....but we don't represent the "other" Britain, the people left behind by globalisation, the homeless youth, the hopeless estate dwellers, the swathes of our country blighted by drugs and criminality.
I've been a manual worker all my life, I've seen all the facets of this warped society, but most who write here haven't a fucking clue, isolated by an establishment education, they want their kids to have what they had......I know grandfathers,fathers and children who have never had anything....not even hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:54 PM

Brexit wont initiate a run on the pound, but the election of a socialist government certainly would.

Of course it wont come to that the facebook socialists will soon join the establishment "socialists" in propping up the old political order.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:18 PM

We haven?t even got brexit yet but the sheer prospect of it has ditched the pound. I was loading my prepaid Caxton card (I use it on my holidays) at around ?1.38 eighteen months ago. A week before I went to Madeira last month I couldn?t even get ?1.08. As I?d expected this and loaded up me spending money well in advance it didn?t bother me personally. But just think. Imports dearer, inflation soaring in consequence and companies unable to meet it via pay increases...and such a long way to go!

Still, as we fall down the skyscraper and ignore the ground rapidly coming up to obliterate us, isn?t the blue sky with its fluffy little clouds so lovely...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 02:16 AM


I remember the last big run in Wilsons time when they tried to sabotage his govt.
Surely you don't want to see a repeat of that for ideological reasons "D"?


Well, ake, there is a huge difference between planning what you would to prevent, or minimise the effects of something and wanting it to happen.


Secondly, when 'they' tried to sabotage Wilson's government? Are you referring to Peter Wright's assertions in "Spycatcher" that the establishment, via MI5, was trying to sabotage Wilson's government? No, I certainly don't want that to happen.    But are you referring to the devaluation of the pound under Wilson of 14%?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:40 AM

Yes "D" I'm referring to the wholesale financial speculation which led to the devaluation.

The political establishment have many such tools in their armoury.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:47 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:54 PM
DmCG The run on the pound occured immediately after the Referendum vote.
The pound has consistently traded at 10% lower against the Dollar and 15% below against the Euro since the vote.
There are few, if any, signs of it recovering those losses in the near future.


So we may see a further drop. The only surprise is that people are surprised.
The pound is currently at $1.32 and is probably still overvalued. A period of adjustment for the pound has long been expected.

See: The Telegraph 26 Dec 2015

The pound is one of the most overvalued currencies in the world and will suffer next year as the Government ramps up spending cuts and uncertainty about Britain?s future in the EU weighs on growth.

Analysts at Deutsche Bank warned that the Bank of England may not be able to raise interest rates ?at all? if Britain?s recovery slows.

It believes the pound could fall as low as $1.27 next year and $1.15 in 2017 from about $1.485 today if the US Federal Reserve continues to tighten monetary policy and the Bank of England leaves interest rates on hold.

?We have various different ways of looking at currency valuations and what we find is that sterling is the most expensive currency out there at the moment - even including the dollar,? said Oliver Harvey, foreign exchange strategist at Deutsche Bank. Earlier this year, the International Monetary Fund said the pound was between 5pc and 15pc overvalued.


So the pound's recent fall is an overdue re-balancing of its value when compared with other currencies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

"Brexit wont initiate a run on the pound, but the election of a socialist government certainly would"

Have you looked at the exchange rates in the last 18 months since the Referendum?

In November 2015 I exchanged a good sum at 1.41 Euro to the pound so each Euro cost me 71 pence sterling.

Today if I exchanged I would get 1.11 Euro to the pound so each Euro would cost me 90 pence sterling.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the maths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:34 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM
"Brexit wont initiate a run on the pound, but the election of a socialist government certainly would"
Have you looked at the exchange rates in the last 18 months since the Referendum?
In November 2015 I exchanged a good sum at 1.41 Euro to the pound so each Euro cost me 71 pence sterling.
Today if I exchanged I would get 1.11 Euro to the pound so each Euro would cost me 90 pence sterling.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the maths.


That's just good timing (or good luck). There's a graph Here that shows the pound at similar rates for most of 2015, but then falling.
However, the rate still hasn't hit the low that it had in 2009 under a Labour government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:54 AM

Nor has it ever hit the high of 1.75 euro to the pound, also under a Labour Government in April 2000.

Amazing what you can cherry pick.

However since the referendum the pound has consistently traded at a level 15% lower than before the vote.

Every day, every week, every month.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 06:56 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:54 AM
Nor has it ever hit the high of 1.75 euro to the pound, also under a Labour Government in April 2000.
Amazing what you can cherry pick.
However since the referendum the pound has consistently traded at a level 15% lower than before the vote.
Every day, every week, every month.


Immediately prior to the result (June 23 2016) the rate was 1.3039.
85% (100% less 15%) of 1.3039 is 1.1083 The pound fell below this level briefly in Oct/Nov 2016 and again in August/Sept 2017

So NOT 15% lower, every day, every week, every month. Hardly even two full months out of fifteen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM

Are you trying to suggest that the pound has not consistently traded at a lower level for the past 15 months.

At the time of the referendum the pound traded at 1.3030 Euro, thus each Euro cost 0.7669 pence.

Today the pound is trading at 1.1137, thus each Euro costs 0.8979 pence.

The difference is a 16% fall on todays market, it has been greater.

Now we could argue figures all day but the fact remains that the pound has been consistently lower against the Euro in the 15 months between the referendum and now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:17 AM

It must also be pointed out that many years ago the pound traded at 1.04 to the euro. Currencies go up-currencies go down. This is a fact of life. The most severe drops have been on Labour's watch under Brown
the bountiful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM

Nigel, you are in denial. Whether the pound was overvalued by five, or fifteen, percent is moot. The obstinate fact is that the pound has plummeted by 14% in the last year and and a bit. The referendum took place a year and a bit ago. The two are inextricably connected. The devaluation has been at the same percentage loss as under Wilson. Sudden swings are very bad for the economy. Imports are dearer and inflation goes up. Pay rises won't follow suit. All this has happened even before the nuts and bolts of brexit have started to grind. We ain't seen nothing yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:37 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM
Are you trying to suggest that the pound has not consistently traded at a lower level for the past 15 months.

No. I am not suggesting that. I am correcting your claim that since the referendum the pound has consistently traded at a level 15% lower than before the vote

At the time of the referendum the pound traded at 1.3030 Euro, thus each Euro cost 0.7669 pence.
Today the pound is trading at 1.1137, thus each Euro costs 0.8979 pence.
The difference is a 16% fall on todays market, it has been greater.

No I can?t see where you?re getting 16% from on that calculation either.

As you said earlier: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the maths.. I would suggest you don?t go in for rocket science then, as you can?t handle basic maths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM

Iains, Have you looked at the graph provided by Nigel, who I would consider one of your "allies" in this dsicussion.

During much of the Labour Governments term of office the pound traded at a much higher level. Only occasionally has it reached the same heights under a Conservative/Coalition Government.

You can see the figures for yourself.

However, this is a distraction from the discussion that the Pound has significantly weakened against the Euro since the Brexit vote. That is a fact which is clear to see in the graph kindly provided by Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:47 AM

0.7669 divided by 100 multiplied by 116 equals 0.8896.

So the actually rate is slightly higher at 16.7% give or take a point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:52 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM
Nigel, you are in denial. Whether the pound was overvalued by five, or fifteen, percent is moot. The obstinate fact is that the pound has plummeted by 14% in the last year and and a bit. The referendum took place a year and a bit ago. The two are inextricably connected. The devaluation has been at the same percentage loss as under Wilson. Sudden swings are very bad for the economy. Imports are dearer and inflation goes up. Pay rises won't follow suit. All this has happened even before the nuts and bolts of brexit have started to grind. We ain't seen nothing yet.


I am not in denial. I was pointing out that it was already known that the pound was overvalued, and due for an adjustment. The advent of Brexit was an ideal opportunity for this to happen. Even without Brexit it would have had to happen at some point.
Your comment about the increased cost (in pounds) of inports is quite valid, but you ignore (presumably as it doesn't suit your case) that the same effect makes our exports more desirable elsewhere as the will have had a matching reduction in cost (in the currency of the purchaser) thus helping our exports.

I still see Brexit as being a forward move.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM

While I agree the lower value of the pound may help us sell more, do not forget we are a net importer and have been for quite a long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:02 AM

If you study the exchange rates you will find the pound started to decline in Nov 2015 from a high of 1.41 to around 1.26 by the time the referendum occurred. Market sentiment was that brexit would be a resounding nay(or neigh)yet the decline was ongoing. It was a market correction, as has been alluded to. To what extent brexit influenced the decline is impossible to determine.
Scroll down for pound euro and move the cursor on the graph for date and value.

https://www.exfinuk.com/historical-forex-gbp


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:09 AM

None so blind as those that will not see................


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:10 AM

Actually Iains your graphs show much the same decline as Nigels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:13 AM

Yes: 0.7669 divided by 100 multiplied by 116 equals 0.8896.
And .8896 is less than .8979

So .8979 is 17% greater than .7669 That does not mean the value of the pound has fallen by 17%. Your basic premise is wrong.

When calculating how much something has fallen (or risen) your base value (100%) is the point at which you started.
So with an opening rate of 1.3030, and a closing rate of 1.1137 the reduction of the rate is (roughly) 14.5%
If you have problems seeing this. Take an item costing £10. If the price goes up to £15 then that is a 50% increase (50% of the original £10)
But if you start with an item at £15 and reduce the price to £10 then that is not a 50% reduction, because you base the percentage on the original price (£5 reduction based on £15 start price is a 33.33% reduction).


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM

Oooh !! 14.5% not the 15.% I initially quoted

Only 14.5% we're saved ............... Yippee!!!!

It is still 14.5% Nigel, an on cost to every man jack of us at some point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:37 AM

Yep, a lower pound would help us sell more. Now lessee, what is it we'd like to sell? Er...

I see it's denial day today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:57 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM
Oooh !! 14.5% not the 15.% I initially quoted
(and attempted to ?prove? using dodgy maths)
Only 14.5% we're saved ............... Yippee!!!!

It is still 14.5% Nigel, an on cost to every man jack of us at some point.

Possibly (assuming that by an ?on cost? you mean that the cost is passed on to us). But I?m sure I haven?t seen a 15% rise (or anywhere near) in the cost of my weekly shopping bill since we started leaving the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:17 AM

In the meantime, the Tory party fiddles while brexit burns us down. Interesting read in today's Guardian, "A new cabinet won't save May, Brexit has doomed her" by Steve Richards. It seems that Europe dooms Tory leader after Tory leader and she's going to be no exception. No time for schadenfreude, though. Maybe for shaftenfreude, which, roughly translated, means taking pleasure in the inevitable immolation of the Tories whilst simultaneously realising that we're all completely stuffed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:21 AM

I don't think anyone claims the cost of your weekly shop will mirror the devaluation: imports are only part of the price. But we will still end up paying the whole lot in more subtle ways, like the increased cost of government borrowing, deferred pay increases and a myriad of other ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:30 AM

The tories are in a right state. The party is directionless under weak leadership and the sniping of right-wing backbenchers. Meanwhile Liar-in-Chief Boris is proving a real hazard; May can't sack him because he'd be a real loose cannon on the back benches and yet as foreign secretary he's a laughing stock. It it wasn't for the distraction of Trump's Flying Circus across the puddle the world would be laughing at us more than they already are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:44 AM

You haven't seen a 15% rise in your shopping bill because nowhere near all your shopping is stuff we've bought in from outside, and because costs are not necessarily passed on fully to consumers straight away as suppliers shave their profit margins in order to stay competitive. And what DMcG said. Fluctuations in oil prices, which have nothing to do with exchange rates, can either enhance or offset inflation. But the CPI 12-month rate rose from 0.3 to 2.7 in the year after the referendum. That ties in closely with the decline of the pound. No denying it, Nigel. The referendum result helped to crash the pound and put up inflation. The next thing will be a drop in living standards as pay fails to keep up with inflation, which is inevitable. I wonder when the next Tory grandee-to-be (which is what happens to most failed Tories, and there?s a queue forming fast) will be telling us that we?re all in it together...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 12:03 PM

We certainly are "all in it together", whether you like it or not.
If you lot don't stop your whining about losing some of your privileges, "rights" and unearned wealth, we really will be "in it".

We are being held to ransom for something which we don't need and which we are never going to get .....favourable terms from the EU.
We have upset their corrupt little club and they ain't going to help us in any way. In fact they are willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces on this one.

I'm not surprised that a majority of politicians support remaining in the EU, that is their retirement fund, but you people are supposed to be "of the left", always blethering on about change and looking after the poor, regeneration.   There hasn't been much sign of that under the iron fist of Brussels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 01:02 PM

"I'm not surprised that a majority of politicians support remaining in the EU, that is their retirement fund"

I wasn't aware that Brussels financed the retirement packages of the UK Government, true some of them may find work there after their time in the Commons, some but not all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 01:30 PM

In fact they are willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces on this one.

I very much doubt if that is the case, ake. They will do what *they* see as in their best interests. But that does not necessarily coincide with what *Britain claims* is in the EU's best interests, and it certainly won't be limited to strictly financial matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 01:44 PM

My cherished EU passport expires four days after brexit. What a pisser. I?ll be stateless in my head. Maybe I?ll stump up the unconscionable fee and get meself an Irish one. I?m entitled, but the Emerald Isle wants my dough.

There aren?t enough hours in the day to address the arrant, disconnected nonsense in akenaton?s post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM

"
There aren?t enough hours in the day to address the arrant, disconnected nonsense in akenaton?s post."

:0).....Best compliment I've had for weeks, if that is Steve's considered opinion, I must have hit the mark, dead centre and bloody hard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 03:51 PM

The only marks we associate you with are skidmarks, mate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:23 PM

And now the OBR, set up by the Tories, has significantly downgraded its predictions for productivity over the next five years, blaming brexit and low interest rates. Oh ye of brave face, where art thou now?

And don't mention BAE...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 03:16 AM

"There hasn't been much sign of that under the iron fist of Brussels."

You might want to educate yourself on that matter. Look up what the EU has done for some of the most deprived communities in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 03:23 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 01:44 PM
My cherished EU passport expires four days after brexit. What a pisser. I?ll be stateless in my head. Maybe I?ll stump up the unconscionable fee and get meself an Irish one. I?m entitled, but the Emerald Isle wants my dough.


Or you could request, and pay for, a replacement now (or any time before Brexit) and get a new UK/EC passport which will last you for several more years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 03:36 AM

In fact, there is no need to lose any of the time remaining on your passport. Just renew it 6 months before expiry:
You can renew your passport at any time. When you renew your passport, time left on your existing passport is added to your new one, up to a maximum of 9 months.
From Here


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM

ake - i think you need to have a serious think about the 'iron fist of brussels' it is really an ignorant insult to those in our continent who suffered under nazi or soviet iron fists for years. our daughter lives and works in estonia where in their 800 year history they have only been an independent nation for less than 50. fancy going there and telling this new and hopeful EU nation that they are living under the iron fist of brussels? calm down and have a think about how lucky and free you are. in what single way does being in an EU nation have a negative effect on your daily life? you are completely free to say whatever nonsense you like about all levels of government - not really that much of an iron fist is it, comrade?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM

I'm not surprised that a majority of politicians support remaining in the EU,

The Eu is an employment scheme for politicians, providing lucrative pay and expenses and a lovely lifestyle for hosts of them.
When that comes to a stop they will all have to fight like cats for the remaining jobs. Of course they all vote against.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 02:21 PM

yes, they do nothing at all of any worth whatsoever. trying to keep peace between often warring factions? encouraging free movement and friendship between people? protecting our environment and our rights at work> helping poorer regions? even twinning and the erasmus project? total greedy bastards every one of them. except farage of course


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM

"The Eu is an employment scheme for politicians, providing lucrative pay and expenses and a lovely lifestyle for hosts of them."

Christian Churches are employment schemes for clerics, providing easy sexual access to underage children and near-immunity from punishment. Hollywood is an employment scheme for directors, providing them with unlimited sexual access to gorgeous young women who will do anything to get the parts. In other words, there's nothing like a good old bit of brainless prejudice, is there, Keith? As a matter of fact, politicians have a job to do and one that needs doing, and, as with most other professions, the majority do a fair and honest job. Give it a rest, Keith. And well said, Pete.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 03:10 AM

"politicians have a job to do and one that needs doing, and, as with most other professions, the majority do a fair and honest job."

Can't believe anyone had the gall to write that.
"The majority"......all politicians are public servants, all should be fair and honest."
How soon we forget the expenses debacle, when our "liberal" friends led the chorus of vilification.....and we never got to the truth of half of it. The extortionate fees commanded by politicians for private speaking engagements
Blair's role in the Iraq war, supported by almost every politician in the UK, against the will of the people as shown in huge demonstrations up and down the country.

There are only a handful of politicians who are not corrupt, they are agents of a system which promotes corruption.

Don't even look at established American politics, if you do, don't consider repeating your ridiculous assertion.

The EU is the most corrupt and undemocratic organisation in the West, no wonder they seek to retain it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 03:59 AM

sadly that will be the last we hear from ake for a time. the totalitarian powers employed by the EU will no doubt be sending their agents to sweep him up in their iron fist and despatch him to some bureaucratic dungeon where he will be bound in red tape until freed by a liam fox run hit squad in march 2019.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM

Steve,
Christian Churches are employment schemes for clerics,

I agree, but I believe it to be a great force for good in the world.

If we leave the EU, the group who would suffer most is the political class for whom it provides such manifold and lucrative employment opportunities.
That is why we should treat that group's views with particular suspicion.

Similarly, if it was seriously proposed to abolish the Christian Church, I would give the least credence to the views of those who it would put out of jobs, i.e. clerics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:25 AM

Good morning. Today's news: looks like the tories are having second thoughts as a theme of "we were better in the EU" is emerging from one faction of the warring cabinet of millionaires, with the Maybot refusing to answer a question on whether she would vote to stay in or now were the referendum to be held now. Which means she would vote in.


"How soon we forget the expenses debacle"

Of course Ake, your vile Kipper mates including your lord and master in neo-nazi nastiness Farage have been coining it in from the EU, with the toff city wideboy himself boasting he used £2,000,000 of taxpayer's money to promote UKIP, with no doubt a fair wodge of that being used to pay for his own 'expenses'. In fact, your lot are known for being the greedy little maggots of the EU parliament. They're laughing at you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:25 AM

"You might want to educate yourself on that matter. Look up what the EU has done for some of the most deprived communities in the UK."


Yes, like massively widening the "wealth gap" in every country under their control.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM

If we leave the EU, the group who would suffer most is the political class

Most living, mainstream economists who have had books published in major bookshops disagree.

Most economists still pessimistic about effects of Brexit

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:32 AM

Dave, we would have to subscribe to the notoriously Europhile FT to read your link.
"Most economists" have already been proved wrong in their predictions about the referendum result.

In what way does the one line we can read, which you quoted, challenge anything in my post?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:37 AM

Stu,
with the toff city wideboy himself boasting he used £2,000,000 of taxpayer's money to promote UKIP,

Yes, but all EU MPs claim the same.
What do the others spend their millions on?
Not on working towards ending the abuse!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:42 AM

Most economists failed to see the financial crash of 2008 thundering towards them.

Of course they didn't fail to see it, they just hoped it would come to a juddering halt before it hit us. But they also knew that the financial system could not be allowed to implode no matter how much misery this would inflict upon the ordinary folk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM

...and the Guardian

...and the Economist

...and Bloomberg

...and The Independent

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:55 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM
. . .Most living, mainstream economists who have had books published in major bookshops disagree.
Most economists still pessimistic about effects of Brexit
DtG


Many 'mainstream economists' were predicting major catastrophe to immediately follow a vote to leave. It didn't happen.
"Living mainstream economists" Okay, I think we can accept that dead economists are unlikely to be having books published about Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:58 AM

You had to have been there, Nigel ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:08 AM

BTW

Many 'mainstream economists' were predicting major catastrophe to immediately follow a vote to leave. It didn't happen.

Hate crimes rise by up to 100 per cent across England and Wales

Maybe not the catastrophe that anyone had in mind but a catastrophe all the same.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:09 AM

"Yes, but all EU MPs claim the same."

Could you be arsed to look the figures up, you'd know that's not the case. Don't try your fake news here Trump's boy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:23 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Hate crimes rise by up to 100 per cent across England and Wales

It helps to read articles before quoting headlines. Some newspapers fail to match their headlines to the facts.
Yes, the article does give one county where there was a 100% rise. But that was the maximum. I fail to see how their headline also encapsulates the fact that some areas actually saw a fall within that same period.
Hate crimes did not 'rise' everywhere.

Cheers
Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:43 AM

Hate crimes did not 'rise' everywhere.

Maybe not but any rise (no need for quotes) is a bad thing. If you have an issue with the headline in the Independent take it up with them. Maybe you would be happier with this BBC report. It still reports a massive increase and is still, in my opinion, a catastrophe.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:44 AM

Any rise in hate crime anywhere is a defeat for common decency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:58 AM

Pound slumped, inflation rising, lowest growth in G7 and of most major EU countries, OBR forecast for productivity downgraded for the next five years, the party supposedly running the country at war with itself, Tory backwoodsmen not only briefing against May but also against Hammond, EU refusing to negotiate on a trade deal because we won?t stump up what we owe (once we leave and find ourselves in catastrophe land that sixty billion will look like a drop in the ocean), time ebbing away, brave face now being put on the disastrous prospect of no deal... Oh yes, things are really looking up. Still, never mind. Within a year or two we?ll have revived the Empire, the sun will never set on the red bits of the map and all these desperate foreign Johnnies will be queuing up to do amazing trade deals with us.

Like hell they will. The only way out of this morass is to abandon Article 50 and stay where we are. It can be done and, increasingly probably, it will. And we won?t even need a referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 06:02 AM

If you have an issue with the headline in the Independent take it up with them
My problem wasn't with The Independent. It was with you quoting it as a supportive fact to your arguments without realising that it wasn't in line with the article it covered.

I haven't read the Independent since they cancelled their paper edition. Even then it was only on Saturday, for the 16*16 Sudoku.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 06:18 AM

It was with you quoting it as a supportive fact to your arguments without realising that it wasn't in line with the article it covered.

But I did no such thing. I just used the wording of the headline to provide a link to the article which I had read in full. The article is there for anyone to read and you did so. As far as I can tell your argument is simply with the headline hence my suggesting you take it up with them. Is the BBC article more to your liking? Do you think that because they report an increase in hate crime of a measly 41% overall on the previous year that it is OK?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM

No, an increase in hate crime of 41% is not acceptable.
Hate crime is unacceptable. Decrying the rate of the rise seems pointless, unless you are highlighting it as a factor brought on by Brexit. But then there was an 18% rise between 2013/24 & 2014/15 (pre brexit) < ahref=http://www.report-it.org.uk/hate_crimes_reported_to_police_up_18_in_england>Here

So the rise is not a purely Brexit phenomenon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:57 AM

Try again with the correct link:
No, an increase in hate crime of 41% is not acceptable.
Hate crime is unacceptable. Decrying the rate of the rise seems pointless, unless you are highlighting it as a factor brought on by Brexit. But then there was an 18% rise between 2013/24 & 2014/15 (pre brexit) Here

So the rise is not a purely Brexit phenomenon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 08:33 AM


So the rise is not a purely Brexit phenomenon


Surely Dave was arguing it was a Brexit related rise, not that it was 'purely' due to Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 10:22 AM

Hate crime will continue to increase as long as we are divided politically. It exists on left and right, but only amongst the politically ignorant

This forum at present is a wonderful example of hypocrisy and ignorance and almost all of the hatred comes from so called leftists.
Perhaps it is the double whammy of our referendum result and the election of President Donal John which they cannot abide, but I as a lifelong democrat, in the true sense of the word, think their attitude exposes them as hypocrites.

Firstly there is the plan to overturn democracy by way of obstructing the process to remove ourselves from the EU.
Secondly there is the answer the US Election result by one of our prominent member "We must try to drive him out of his mind"

Both Fascist in concept. The hatred which has been heaped on Mr Farage and President Donal John beggars belief


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 10:31 AM

Hate is a terrible thing.
It is hard to see why the referendum should have caused any.
Hate was an issue in the party conferences this year, but only in one of them.
Anti-Semitism was only an issue in the Labour conference, and only there did the BBC have to provide a bodyguard for their Political Editor, because she is a Jew.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 10:36 AM

Stu,
Meanwhile Liar-in-Chief Boris is proving a real hazard;

A minister caught out in a lie has to resign.
Why not report him and get him sacked?
Why not give us an example of his lies?

Could you be arsed to look the figures up, you'd know that's not the case.

Could you?
Did he claim more than he was entitled to?
Do others claim less than they are entitled to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 10:50 AM

Elizabeth Truss, Chief Secretary to the Treasury on BBC explaining why she is no longer a remainer,
"I made a judgement thinking that it would be bad for the economy. Since we have left, it?s been more positive, so the facts have changed so I have changed my mind. "

On same programme Health Sec. Hunt said he was wrong to worry about the British economy after Brexit.
He also said that the EU?s ?disappointing? and ?arrogant? behaviour since the referendum has turned him against the bloc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 10:59 AM

I don't think the British people have any real hatred towards immigrants....they just think that the EU rules enable too many to come here.

If there is any hatred amongst the British people it is chiefly against Radical Islam by whom they are being attacked on a daily basis, by bombs, guns, knifes, even motor vehicles, but chiefly by vicious propaganda and adherence to an intolerant religion which demands death to all who deny it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:00 AM

inspired by an erstwhile DJ and band manager recalling the hassles then. & I came across this problemo at work too.

Taking equipment across customs' borders 35 years ago, required a carnet to say it was tools of the trade coming back with you. not sales trying to dodge local taxes.

Businesses regularly trading will be up to speed eventually when the generation who never knew of such things get caught once or twice. Even then ask the Norwegians and Swedes about it, on-line registration doesn't stop the customs picking you out for a sample. But musicians? Beware - get the booking and the carnet together - from who? Dunno! Birmingham Chamber of Commerce gave us ours - for the second trip!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:04 AM

 only there did the BBC have to provide a bodyguard for their Political Editor, because she is a Jew.

It is appalling this happened, and it is true she had to have a bodyguard. But I am aware of no evidence that it was because she was a Jew.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:14 AM

she seems a bit too tory-inclined for my liking but it had never occurred to me to consider what her religion might be. why would anyone care?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:37 AM

No-one is trying to ?obstruct the process.? It is perfectly legitimate, as issues arise and problems develop, to put the case for a change of direction. That is not the opposite of democracy. That is real democracy. What is fascistic is any attempt to silence people who disagree with our leaving the EU. By calling us fascists you are attacking our right to free speech. And I?m going to further exercise my right to free speech by not-so-respectfully asking Keith to bloody knock it off about Labour and antisemitism. It?s been quite nice without you this past week. We need you reviving that cancerous topic like we need a hole in the head. Please be told, will you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM

I's not a "change of direction", it is the reversal of a democratic vote.   Get over it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 12:41 PM

"It is hard to see why the referendum should have caused any."

The referendum itself didn't. You xenophobic, homophobic right wing dullards and clagnut-quaffing goons and your leaders (Boris the liar) certainly did.

Anyway, looks like the whole thing might stall, the sooner the better. Then we can get on with things like 'science', 'trade' and 'culture'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 01:03 PM

I think you are the one who needs to educate yourself, where have you been for the last few months?

Pete "she seems a bit too tory-inclined for my liking but it had never occurred to me to consider what her religion might be. why would anyone care? "


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 01:56 PM

i was off this site for a couple of years? coming back, lots of changes but little has changed on here. on what do i need to educate myself?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 02:28 PM

Were referendum voters to blame for the hate crimes, or those who sanctioned the referendum which is parliament and every political party.
Is it not quite possible that there might have been more hate crime if the leavers had lost?

Is the hate crime at all relevant to a discussion about Brexit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM

"Is it not quite possible that there might have been more hate crime if the leavers had lost?"

Could you imagine the sense of victimhood, give how well developed it is already in Brexiteers?


"Were referendum voters to blame for the hate crimes"

Not all of them of course, some are very nice. Some are not though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 02:46 PM

Is the hate crime at all relevant to a discussion about Brexit?

There a number of reasons it is relevant, but this is one that I don't remember us talking about. There are some supporters of Brexit - and if I read him rightly ake is an example - who say the Brexit process will be painful and in some ways we might be worse of than now, but in their judgement we will be better off in the longer term out than in. While I don't agree, that seems honest and straightforward.

There are others who cannot face there being any problem at all with Brexit at any stage: everything has to be an improvement, or at worst unrelated, the whole time. So an increase in hate crime? Can't have anything to do with Brexit. Lowering our credit rating, loss of value of the pound, OBR downgradings? Can't be Brexit....


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 03:33 PM

"I don't think the British people have any real hatred towards immigrants....they just think that the EU rules enable too many to come here" (Akenaton)

You must have led a very, very sheltered life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:24 PM

The rise in hate crime was to do with the way the brexit lobby demonised immigrants to engender anti-EU feelings. The referendum itself was a catastrophe and caused a lot of harm to a lot of people, culminating in the death of young mother.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:41 PM

"Were referendum voters to blame for the hate crimes..."

Referendum voters comprised 72% of the electorate. Referendum non-voters comprised 28% of the electorate. Remain voters in general would not have accepted all the bullshit we were peddled about foreigners taking our jobs and houses and cluttering up our public services, otherwise they wouldn't have voted remain. Many leave voters, on the other hand, would have swallowed those lies hook, line and sinker. Not all of them. I'm sure there were a few thinking leave voters. They weren't thinking straight, but let's cut them some slack and just say they were genuine but seriously misguided. Then there's the other 28%, who either didn't give a damn one way or the other, couldn't be arsed to vote, didn't vote because those bastard politicians are all the same anyway, or didn't know what the EU was supposed to be all about, or were opposed to referendums in principle, or simply couldn't decide. We can't speak for them. What we can say is that it's a good bet that most of the increase in hate crime came from anti-immigrant, anti-EU people, leavers in other words, and that all the rhetoric, lies and anti-immigrant hate speech we had to endure during the campaign must have had a big impact on them. If you have a better analysis (not a disingenuous one, please), then let's be having it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:12 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:37 AM
No-one is trying to ?obstruct the process.? It is perfectly legitimate, as issues arise and problems develop, to put the case for a change of direction. That is not the opposite of democracy. That is real democracy. What is fascistic is any attempt to silence people who disagree with our leaving the EU. By calling us fascists you are attacking our right to free speech.


So, no one should speak out strongly against those who voted to remain, but are trying to overturn a democratic vote . . .

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:41 PM
. . . Remain voters in general would not have accepted all the bullshit we were peddled about foreigners taking our jobs and houses and cluttering up our public services, otherwise they wouldn't have voted remain. Many leave voters, on the other hand, would have swallowed those lies hook, line and sinker. Not all of them. I'm sure there were a few thinking leave voters. They weren't thinking straight, but let's cut them some slack and just say they were genuine but seriously misguided.


But anyone who voted to leave was either racist, or seriously misguided.

It's interesting to juxtapose two of Steve's posts to see just how one-sided he can be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:20 PM

"If you have a better analysis (not a disingenuous one, please), then let's be having it."
all I have seen so far is opinions, not facts. Analysis of an opinion is an exercise in futility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:52 PM

The two posts are completely unrelated, there's nothing inconsistent in them and you are being mischievous. No-one I know is trying to "overturn a democratic vote." Those who are campaigning for a change of mind are going about it entirely democratically. No-one is planting bombs, pointing guns, rigging votes, threatening people on the doorstep, organising violent demonstrations, talking hate speech or kidnapping the prime minister. In a free country with free speech I'm fully entitled to make the case, even now, for remaining in the EU as strongly and fervently as I can. My opinion is that the referendum was fatally flawed, both because the bar was set inappropriately and in that the campaign was a complete disgrace from start to finish. I'm not going to be told by anyone that my demurring from that is "undemocratic" when it's actually precisely the opposite. Your accusing me of "trying to overturn a democratic vote" is emotional, undemocratic, fascistic and is a full reflection of your insecurity. My view is that most leavers are now privately reconsidering their position. Of course, hubris may prevent many from coming out - for now. The whole thing is collapsing day by day around your ears. Our ears. Every night the news is apocalyptic. It's an impending bloody disaster that we are being steered into by the most inept government I can remember in my lifetime. You won't admit it now. I do understand that. You have your pride. But you were wrong and, deep down, you know it. I'll give you six months, by which time you'll have to eat shit. Or you could act with a bit more grace and humility and admit, finally, that brexit is going to be the biggest disaster in generations. You will have to, sooner or later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:12 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:52 PM
The two posts are completely unrelated,
They are on the same thread, and deal with the same subject matter, and are posted by the same person. - How 'related' do you want them to be?

there's nothing inconsistent in them and you are being mischievous. No-one I know is trying to "overturn a democratic vote." Those who are campaigning for a change of mind are going about it entirely democratically.
I didn't say you were trying to do it by force. The democratic vote was to leave the EU. You are putting your arguments to try to persuade people that UK should remain in the EU. If this happens the result of the referendum will have been overturned. Isn't that what I said?

No-one is planting bombs, pointing guns, rigging votes, threatening people on the doorstep, organising violent demonstrations, talking hate speech or kidnapping the prime minister. and I never said anything to suggest that they were.

In a free country with free speech I'm fully entitled to make the case, even now, for remaining in the EU as strongly and fervently as I can. My opinion is that the referendum was fatally flawed, both because the bar was set inappropriately and in that the campaign was a complete disgrace from start to finish. I'm not going to be told by anyone that my demurring from that is "undemocratic" when it's actually precisely the opposite. Your accusing me of "trying to overturn a democratic vote" is emotional, undemocratic, fascistic and is a full reflection of your insecurity. My view is that most leavers are now privately reconsidering their position.

You are entitled to hold that view, no matter how inaccurate it might be. I have a similar view that many who voted to remain have since seen that the promised cataclysms never happened and that a further vote may command an even higher majority to vote 'Leave'.

Of course, hubris may prevent many from coming out - for now. The whole thing is collapsing day by day around your ears. Our ears. Every night the news is apocalyptic. It's an impending bloody disaster that we are being steered into by the most inept government I can remember in my lifetime.
Yes, the current government does appear somewhat inept, but at least they are trying to do the job that the people have elected them, and instructed them, to do.

You won't admit it now. I do understand that. You have your pride. But you were wrong and, deep down, you know it. I'll give you six months, by which time you'll have to eat shit.

A lovely turn of phrase you have there. do you mean "eat your words" or were you brought up a 'potty-mouth'. Your mother would be so proud!

Or you could act with a bit more grace and humility and admit, finally, that brexit is going to be the biggest disaster in generations. You will have to, sooner or later.
Dream on!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:35 PM

So you are trying to pretend that two posts of mine are in some way contradictory "because they're in the same thread." Sleep well, Nigel, and don't forget to say goodnight to the folks... and when you wake up tomorrow, do try to stick to the substantive. Nighty night!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 01:52 AM