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BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Dave the Gnome 17 Jul 18 - 04:51 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Jul 18 - 04:41 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 18 - 04:31 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Jul 18 - 04:30 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Jul 18 - 04:29 PM
Raggytash 17 Jul 18 - 04:21 PM
Raggytash 17 Jul 18 - 04:14 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Jul 18 - 03:54 PM
Nigel Parsons 17 Jul 18 - 03:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jul 18 - 02:30 PM
Iains 17 Jul 18 - 02:27 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 18 - 02:14 PM
Iains 17 Jul 18 - 02:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jul 18 - 01:49 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 18 - 12:44 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 12:20 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 12:05 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 12:01 PM
Nigel Parsons 17 Jul 18 - 11:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jul 18 - 11:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jul 18 - 11:52 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 Jul 18 - 10:48 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 18 - 10:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jul 18 - 10:09 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM
Iains 17 Jul 18 - 09:47 AM
Backwoodsman 17 Jul 18 - 08:43 AM
Backwoodsman 17 Jul 18 - 08:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jul 18 - 08:18 AM
Backwoodsman 17 Jul 18 - 07:32 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 06:44 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 Jul 18 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 06:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jul 18 - 06:04 AM
Iains 17 Jul 18 - 04:54 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 18 - 04:51 AM
Iains 17 Jul 18 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 18 - 04:31 AM
David Carter (UK) 17 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jul 18 - 04:26 AM
Iains 17 Jul 18 - 03:46 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 03:29 AM
David Carter (UK) 17 Jul 18 - 03:07 AM
SPB-Cooperator 17 Jul 18 - 03:04 AM
Backwoodsman 17 Jul 18 - 02:01 AM
Iains 16 Jul 18 - 06:36 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 18 - 06:12 PM
Stanron 16 Jul 18 - 05:50 PM
David Carter (UK) 16 Jul 18 - 05:50 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:51 PM

Does that mean you agree, or disagree, with the idea that whether to leave the EU should have been left up to the "lying, devious self-serving shysters" rather than put to the, less well-informed electorate in a referendum?

Neither Nigel. It is not a binary issue and cannot have a binary answer. Just like the whole EU question. A completely unelected and undemocratic media also had their hand in this. As did the parties who's interest was to ensure that the proposed EU tax laws did not interfere with their salted away fortunes. The whole thing was a shambles and should have never happened. But it did and now the clowns who caused it do not have a clue how to proceed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:41 PM

"I'd love to hear our resident crowing brexiteers trying to justify what's been going on."

You mean like sticking their fingers in their ears and singing, "La la la"? Or rabbiting on about "We won, get over it!"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:31 PM

In my view the deliberate cheating by the leave campaign, which actually amounted to criminality, coupled with all the bloody lies they told about NHS money (bus) and immigration (poster), brings the whole brexit process into question. Leave won by a very narrow margin. Had they not used those underhand tactics, who knows how many people would have voted the other way? Chuka Umunna delivered a devastatingly excoriating speech on this in the Commons today. I'd love to hear our resident crowing brexiteers trying to justify what's been going on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:30 PM

Post timed at 07:32


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:29 PM

"I am a tad surprised that no one has yet mentioned that the leave campaign have been finded for breaking elections laws."

You didn't read my post earlier today then, Raggy - I linked to the Independent's article on that topic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:21 PM

Perhaps someone would be kind enough to link to the article on the Guardians politic page. "Vote Leave broke Electorial Law and democracy is shaken"

Thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:14 PM

I am a tad surprised that no one has yet mentioned that the leave campaign have been finded for breaking elections laws.

One comment I heard earlier was that they were argreieved because they had not discussed the matter with the Electoral Commission.

The Electorial Commission stated that they had been asked to discuss it with them but had not done so.

So, in addition to cheating, the Leave campaign would seem to to be liars.

No doubt I will be told "we wun, deal wiv it"


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:54 PM

Oh fuck, now Nigels's become Keefy's Apprentice Hoop-Setter-Upper. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:03 PM

Dave,
Thanks for that description of politicians.
Does that mean you agree, or disagree, with the idea that whether to leave the EU should have been left up to the "lying, devious self-serving shysters" rather than put to the, less well-informed electorate in a referendum?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 02:30 PM

I don't recall ever saying that politicians were any cleverer than anyone else. What they are is better informed and have access to information that we dont. Their job, for which they have been elected and are well paid to do, is to do the best for the people that elected them and pay their wages. Instead they have fed the electorate a pack of lies and then expected them to make an informed decision. Cleverer? Possibly not. More devious? Probably. Set of self serving shysters? Definitely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 02:27 PM

I am disappointed shaw. Surely you can generate a better response that that pathetic offering above? Knuckles dragging maybe?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 02:14 PM

Just go down the pub and ask some of the punters what the customs union is. Maybe then you'll drop the denial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 02:09 PM

I think the only knuckle draggers hereabouts are those that cannot accept that the majority voted to leave. And as for putting yout trust in politicians words simply fail me.

According to Darwin's theory the knuckle draggers have to be in the minority because those with superior   traits achieve dominance, as exemplified by the brexit voting. Those like shaw that insist politicians make all the decisions because they are cleverer than the rest of us. What a merry jest that ridiculous supposition is proving to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 01:49 PM

Nobody bothered too much about being in Europe until low-foreheads and knuckle draggers like Farage whipped them into a frenzy of hate and fear

Not true. There were widespread feelings against the EU before Farage, but no party would listen before Farage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 12:44 PM

"There we have it. Steve Shaw's basic premise is that the electorate is "ignorant" (himself included?). And so the decisions should have been taken by our elected representatives. Does he realise that those representatives were elected by the same people he considers "ignorant"? Hardly an argument for good governance!"

I take it that you do know the difference between electing members of parliament every four or five years, a throughly reversible, broad-brush process should the electorate lean that way, and an irreversible referendum whose apparently simple question was underlain by highly technical, logistical and legal problems that the country knew very little about? What proportion of the electorate could have explained the first thing about the customs union, the single market and the upcoming Irish border issue by June 23 2016? Well I don't know the precise answer to that any more than you do, but I can assure you that millions on both sides blithely put yes or no on their ballot papers without having the slightest inkling of the implications of their decision for those matters. You may want to read all sorts into my use of the word ignorant, but the really scary thing is that it has become abundantly clear over the last two years that it is exactly the right word. It certainly applies to a good few people involved in this discussion, and you are clearly one of them, I'm afraid, going from the simplistic and falsely hopeful nonsense you post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 12:20 PM

Feck
This is what I keep trying to put up
Must get a grip on this multi-tasking lark
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hate-crime-schools-colleges-uk-education-rise-racism-lgbt-race-ethnicity-a8183061.html
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 12:05 PM

Whoops
THis has now filtered through to our young people
THIS HAS GROWN
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 12:01 PM

The referendum was won on the basis of playing the Xenophobic ticket (Enoch Powell's wet dream) - the victory was marked by a sharp inctrease in racist incidents THIS HAS GROWN STEADILY EVER SINCE
THis has now filtered through to our young people
THIS HAS GROWN STEADILY EVER SINCE
Nobody bothered too much about being in Europe until low-foreheads and knuckle draggers like Farage whipped them into a frenzy of hate and fear
Far from offering a decent future, this massive leap in the dark has degraded and debased Britain
Populism has sfa to do with democracy - it is the oldest rallying cry of intolerance in history
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 11:59 AM

One Thousand Half-dozens!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 11:53 AM

Who wants 6000?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 11:52 AM

Both the far Left and Right have contempt for the electorate because they do not support their extreme views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 10:48 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM

"Clearly the basic referendum was totally democratic"

Precisely the opposite of this is the truth. Elected representatives, paid to know what they're talking about and paid to do the job, put the decision in the hands of an ignorant electorate whose ignorance was deliberately maintained by a campaign of cynical lies on both sides. The electorate was presented with a fear campaign that had no basis in reality from one side and by a pack of lies about taking back control, pie in the sky promises about the NHS and a healthy dose of racism thrown in by the other side. If that's your idea of democracy in action, well it isn't mine.


There we have it. Steve Shaw's basic premise is that the electorate is "ignorant" (himself included?). And so the decisions should have been taken by our elected representatives. Does he realise that those representatives were elected by the same people he considers "ignorant"? Hardly an argument for good governance!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 10:13 AM

"What is so difficult about voting yes or no?"

Shall we decide to get divorced, dear?

Yes! About time!

There, what was so difficult about that!

Nothing, dear. Piece of cake!

Er, but what about the house? Sell it? But there won't be enough for us to buy two separate ones...

And what about the savings? Oi, if you think you're having half you can go and whistle - they came out of my earnings while you were at home with the kids, and I always earned a lot more than you!

Oh, so bringing up the kids isn't important, is it! Bastard! I sacrificed my career for our kids!

And you can forget having a slice of the fifty grand my dad left me. Keep it in the family!

I AM family, you swine!

And the kids... they should live with me, not you. In fact, I should keep the house.

Oh yeah, sez who! Let's ask THEM who they want to live with!

But they're only five and three, you prat!

And I keep the sports car because you drive the J-reg Astra all the time...

Bugger off! That is NOT how it works and you know it!

And I get to have half your pension because looking after the kids meant I couldn't build mine up...

Oh yeah???! .................




Yes Iains, just a simple matter of yes or no, innit! Bwahahaha!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 10:09 AM

Steve, if they had not, the strength of feeling among the people would have led to a populist, anti-EU party taking control and doing it anyway. The referendum gave them a fighting chance of stopping it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM

"Clearly the basic referendum was totally democratic"

Precisely the opposite of this is the truth. Elected representatives, paid to know what they're talking about and paid to do the job, put the decision in the hands of an ignorant electorate whose ignorance was deliberately maintained by a campaign of cynical lies on both sides. The electorate was presented with a fear campaign that had no basis in reality from one side and by a pack of lies about taking back control, pie in the sky promises about the NHS and a healthy dose of racism thrown in by the other side. If that's your idea of democracy in action, well it isn't mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 09:47 AM

What is so difficult about voting yes or no? The treacherous PM is deliberately making a dog' breakfast of leaving. No doubt she is a fully paid up member of the secretive common purpose. The political entity that is registered as a charity. Wonder how that works?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 08:43 AM

BASTARD HTML!!

Only 'never' should have been underlined. FML!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 08:42 AM

There has never been a plan for BrexShit, Dave, and it is outrageous that the morally-bereft, clueless, and cowardly leaders of the Leave Campaign were allowed to shit their boxers and run away the morning after the Referendum.

Those dick-wads got us into this steaming pile of ordure, they should have been made to take responsibility for the execution of the entire BrexShit process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 08:18 AM

Clearly the basic referendum was totally democratic, as it was an expression of the wishes of the eligible members of the state

There is nothing democratic about people who have been given the task of running the country and being paid plenty of money to do so abdicating responsibility for doing so.

The whole thing was a farce from start to finish and the farce continues with the current mismanagement. That anyone would for such a gamble without having any plans as to what would happen if it did not go their way beggars belief.

Nick Cohen in the Spectator has a better handle on it than most. We don’t know where Brexiteers are going now. And neither do they And a better turn of phrase.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 07:32 AM

BrexShit Campaigners Cheated - send for the cops!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:44 AM

"giving the dominant two-thirds a say in what happened, "
Should read
giving the majority two-thirds a dominant say in what happened,


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:43 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:31 AM

Though there's something undemocratic about, for example, Parliament deciding on whether we stay in the EU...? Seems that this democracy malarkey is a moveable feast...


Democracy: a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

Clearly the basic referendum was totally democratic, as it was an expression of the wishes of the eligible members of the state. For the representatives of those members to overturn the result of the referendum would be undemocratic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:14 AM

"In Ireland they repeat the process(referendum) until the EU obtains the answer it wants."
Over a number of years - and when the demand for another is strong enough - there is no "them" about it and the EU has no say whatever in Referenda
Like proportional Representation, if is a higher form of democracy giving even those who lose the vote a say in the running of the country - not pefect, but far more democratic than the stupid 'first past the post' system
It is significant that, when Ireland was divided and the Six Counties decided to create a Protestant State giving the dominant two-thirds a say in what happened, the first thing they got rid of was Proportional Representation - leading to decades of sectarian violence and inequality based on religion and eventually, years of bloody warfare
Go read a book - anything written by Englishman Robert Kee will do very nicely
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:04 AM

Parliament decided unanimously to allow it to be decided by referendum.
Democracy in action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:54 AM

Care to tell us why, when you were perfectly hunkydory with the first one? For the record, I'm opposed to both...


In Ireland they repeat the process(referendum) until the EU obtains the answer it wants. A rather perverted form of democracy doncha think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:51 AM

Nothing complex, eh? So simple that two years of twisting, turning and agonising over the details have got us precisely nowhere. Thank God there's nothing complicated about it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:48 AM

" but frankly we are all paid a lot of money to take these decisions and to come to compromises and to see through these difficult issues."

ain't nuffink complex or difficult about voting yea or nay.
The woman is a fool.Glad the halfwit does not represent me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:31 AM

Though there's something undemocratic about, for example, Parliament deciding on whether we stay in the EU...? Seems that this democracy malarkey is a moveable feast...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM

If you read what Lucy Powell says, rather than what you have spun it as, she is of course completely right.

I did follow the link to the vile express, I will have to disinfect my keyboard and mouse now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM

Lucy Powell makes closely-argued points about why she thinks a referendum was not appropriate. She did not anything like make a point about people being too stupid. Thing is, if you provide a link you have to accept that there's a danger of people actually reading it. As with Stanron yesterday, if you have a point to make it helps if you stick to the facts. And, whether you like it or not, the argument against referendums is a pretty respectable one and one which has been made here a number of times. I assume that you are opposed to a second referendum. Care to tell us why, when you were perfectly hunkydory with the first one? For the record, I'm opposed to both...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:26 AM

Rag,
Was anyone else aware at the time of the referendum that they were voting for a "hard" or "soft" Brexit.
I thought it was either we leave the EU or stay in the EU.


It was! Both sides made clear that voting Leave would take us out of the customs union and the single market, but the Remainers have been frantically trying to row back from that ever since.


There is talk of bringing the summer recess forward by 6 days, the upshot of which will mean that discussion is limited.................!!!
I, obviously mistakenly, thought we were a democratic country.


Parliament would have to vote for it, so however much we might disagree there is nothing undemocratic about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:46 AM

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/07/grassroots-rebellion-downing-street-is-starting-to-realise-the-scale-of-tory-opposition-to-the-chequers-plan.html

Blue clickys do not work on this item, but I would hate to disappoint you!

and below we have a labour mp claiming the electorate are too stupid to vote on referendums (not referenda, as quoted) I wonder why she thinks she is so superior? Perhaps they will confirm their stupidity by re electing her, come the next election.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/989592/Brexit-news-update-Brexit-referendum-Leave-Remain-second-vote-Lucy-Powell


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:29 AM

"Oops! Trouble wi' t'link..."
Still trouble wi' t'link Iains
Considering yesterdays fiasco of a debate, the skin-of-the-teeth vote and the steadily growing list of resignations, I suggest the article has probably been removed - watch this space (or not - a the case may be
There's democracy for you !
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:07 AM

Stanron says:

"As for the UK veto, well I wouldn't trust our lily livered political class to put the UK's best interest befor their own political advantage."

And here is an important issue, the UK's political structures are very decayed, and it is much more likely that EU politicians and even commission officials will act in the best interests of myself and other people in the UK, than that UK politicians will. We have a corrupt cabinet in the UK, Fox should be disqualified from office for his expenses fiddles, and in gaol for giving a Whitehall job to an agent of a foreign power. He has demonstrated time and time again that his loyalty is to a foreign country. Johnson is a liar and an adulterer, May is weak, Rees Mogg is only there to serve the interests of the very rich. I would much rather Barnier, Juncker etc. made the decisions which affect the people of Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:04 AM

Problem is that leavers are transfering control from a body that works on the basis of concensus rrepresenting the interest of the citizens of 28 states to an over-priviledged elite which currently drive policy in the UK. Every time the negative impacts of leaving are higlighted, leavers just fall back to bleating "we won,get over it." If you want it, you pay for it - not just for yourself, but pay for the rest of the c0puntry. If you don't want freedom of movement for yourself, you are happy to pay tarrifs, you want customs restriction fair enough, don't f**k thing up for the rest of the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 02:01 AM

Oops! Trouble wi' t'link...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 06:36 PM

Ooops! Trouble at Mill!


https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/07/grassroots-rebellion-downing-street-is-starting-to-realise-the-scale-of-to


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 06:12 PM

Not a lot of focus there, Stanron? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:50 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: What political union?

Well Steve, I am surprised that you haven't heard of 'Ever Closer Political and Economic Integration'. Here's one link, amongst many that I got from putting

'Ever closer political and economic'

into a search engine. Notice a, there is no need to mention the EU and b, i didn't use the G word. Try it. The link is

http://sites.tufts.edu/enricospolaore/files/2012/08/Euro-June-2013.pdf

I've not read it myself yet. I'll save it up for tomorrow.

As for the UK veto, well I wouldn't trust our lily livered political class to put the UK's best interest befor their own political advantage.

Don't forget that Tony Blair gave up our rebate in exchange for something or other and when the EU said "Sorry we don't think we can do it", didn't kick up any kind of fuss. How much are you willing to bet that he had not already been offered a place on the Commision a few years down the line. No wonder he wants to keep us in. If we are out he wont get the job, or the 10 million pension pot.

I suspect that David Cameron got a similar kind of offer if he managed to keep us in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:50 PM

Stanron, you still cannot come up with one single way in which I will be better off out of the EU. Not one.


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Mudcat time: 17 July 11:48 PM EDT

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