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BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

DMcG 25 Apr 18 - 01:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 18 - 05:48 AM
DMcG 25 Apr 18 - 05:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 18 - 05:24 AM
DMcG 25 Apr 18 - 04:11 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Apr 18 - 03:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 18 - 02:44 AM
DMcG 24 Apr 18 - 04:05 PM
Iains 24 Apr 18 - 02:51 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 18 - 01:21 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 18 - 12:37 PM
Raggytash 24 Apr 18 - 11:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Apr 18 - 11:21 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Apr 18 - 10:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 18 - 10:35 AM
Iains 24 Apr 18 - 10:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 18 - 10:24 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 18 - 09:50 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Apr 18 - 06:40 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Apr 18 - 06:31 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 18 - 06:25 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 18 - 06:11 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Apr 18 - 06:10 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Apr 18 - 05:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 18 - 05:51 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 18 - 05:49 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 18 - 05:41 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Apr 18 - 05:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 18 - 04:53 AM
DMcG 24 Apr 18 - 04:46 AM
DMcG 24 Apr 18 - 04:43 AM
Iains 24 Apr 18 - 04:07 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Apr 18 - 04:03 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Apr 18 - 03:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 18 - 03:16 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 18 - 06:36 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 18 - 06:32 PM
DMcG 23 Apr 18 - 06:10 PM
Iains 23 Apr 18 - 05:50 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 18 - 04:52 PM
Raggytash 23 Apr 18 - 04:18 PM
DMcG 23 Apr 18 - 04:16 PM
Raggytash 23 Apr 18 - 03:40 PM
DMcG 23 Apr 18 - 03:14 PM
Iains 23 Apr 18 - 03:04 PM
DMcG 23 Apr 18 - 12:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Apr 18 - 12:24 PM
Iains 23 Apr 18 - 10:30 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 18 - 10:13 AM
Donuel 23 Apr 18 - 10:10 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 01:07 PM

More Government defeats today in the House of Lords.

Some may think I am gleeful about this: I am not. The bill as passed to the Lords had many flaws as was pointed out on the Commons and I don't think anything sent back for further consideration had not been criticised in the Commons. Forcing something through with known problems just because you can is a bad way of making law. I would particularly single out those Lords amendments the government accepted without a need for a vote in the House of Lords.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:48 AM

Damn! I didn't realise someone had already published my plan to become a benign dictator.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:31 AM

There was a Peter Cook show years back where he essentially did that and got everyone to vote via a black box on every little detail of governance. After a few month everyone was sick to death so he offered a vote where he would take all the decisions to take the load off them. And so became an absolute ruler.

A comedy with a serious point...

I was talking about voting in referenda not simply as a modern replacement of postal votes. Apart from the security concerns, the main concern I have there is that it a natural extension to use it in referenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:24 AM

Well, I don't think it is as daft as it sounds with the controls I mentioned earlier. Beats MPs who are swayed by pressure groups and high powered lobbyists in a lot of cases anyway. People can be more easily vetted online that in real life!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 04:11 AM

I wasn't suggesting a voting app as a good idea, Nigel: it was sarcastic. In fact, I think it is an appalling one that would replace any considered form of governance with mob rule.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:20 AM

That's one problem with referendums: they are so 'moreish'. In fact, why not abolish Parliament as a whole and use a voting app?

One day it may become possible. But at present those e-petitions do not appear to have strict control preventing non-UK citizens (or UK persons with no vote) from adding their names, they remain advisory only. To create an app it would need to be at least as secure as our current voting system. The recent referendum was held under the same conditions as an election, with the same associated costs.

I can't see this being taken forward as a valid option any time soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:44 AM

In fact, why not abolish Parliament as a whole and use a voting app?

You know, DMcG, I have mooted that very point myself. It would need a period of study followed by a quiz to confirm that you understand the issue before you vote but I think it is not such an outlandish idea for lots of issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:05 PM

Nigel said:Revision of proposed laws is not the role of the House of Lords. Suggesting revisions is. 

I said:You and I understand that but those who say the Lords are overruling the Commons may not


In evidence, I offer an e-petition currently at around 112,000:
=====
Give the electorate a referendum on the abolition of the House of Lords

The House of Lords is a place of patronage where unelected and unaccountable individuals hold a disproportionate amount of influence and power which can be used to frustrate the elected representatives of the people
=====

That's one problem with referendums: they are so 'moreish'. In fact, why not abolish Parliament as a whole and use a voting app?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 02:51 PM

"And Nigel, the fact that Parliament was obliged to vote on whether to invoke Article 50, a vote separate from the earlier one on whether to hold a referendum, confirms that it was a separate matter from the in-out vote."
That may possibly be true but I think a more likely explanation of the mess is than a vote for out was not contemplated, and the necessary legislation to make it fly without dispute, simply did not occur. Aspects of the out vote that were not specifically addressed will be subject to dispute until(if) Brexit occurs. It does not help that the Government does not appear to give the result it's fullest support.
The departure negotiations are like watching a tadpole swimming through treacle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:21 PM

I'm sorry, Nigel, but when you talk about "disenfranchised" in the context of parliamentary democracy it means that you have improperly been prevented from voting. Your argument about both main parties being at odds with your views in no way means that you have been disenfranchised. I'm not nitpicking at all here, chaps and chapesses. Millions of people oppose abortion in this country but they won't get to vote on it directly, and the main parties are in general accord that abortion is permitted. Lots of other controversial issues, the same. Our setup is that we elect politicians to make major policy decisions, and if the majority party happens to decide on a policy with which the opposition agrees (it happens), but with which you disagree, you can't then can't go bleating around that you're disenfranchised, which is precisely what Nigel did. And Nigel, the fact that Parliament was obliged to vote on whether to invoke Article 50, a vote separate from the earlier one on whether to hold a referendum, confirms that it was a separate matter from the in-out vote. In theory, it could legitimately have gone the other way and you could have had no complaints as the courts had decided that it was not an automatic follow-on from the referendum. Get it? Lots of things in political life to grumble about, but that's how it goes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:37 PM

Only when applied to a certain circumstance, Raggy. Out of interest it was one of the moderation team who first applied it in that way

Nigel. Steve queried it. You then made a massive issue out of that query. You really are getting to be as much a bore with your diversionary tactics and linguistic antics as the master of it. This is not a compliment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 11:29 AM

Hoops is fine Dave, anyone can use it as far as I'm concerned. In fact the more the merrier!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 11:21 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:24 AM

Once again arguing about the semantics of a particular word when everyone else fully understands how it was intended does no favours to your case, Nigel.


Read back, it was Steve Shaw who queried the use of a particular word.
I used it in an accepted context as shown by my later reference (as requested) to a dictionary.

Perhaps you should be complaining about Steve Shaw's nit-picking?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:39 AM

Invoking Article 50 was a separate issue from the referendum vote, which was advisory, lest we forget. Had it not been a separate issue, there would have been no need for a parliamentary vote on it.

At the time of the referendum most people would have believed that a vote to leave would be implemented.
It took a high court case to prevent Article 50 being issued without endorsement by parliament. As you say 'lest we forget', or should that be "how soon people forget"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:35 AM

Iains - Go and find your own catchphrase!

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:28 AM

Hoops Nigel, Hoops!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:24 AM

Once again arguing about the semantics of a particular word when everyone else fully understands how it was intended does no favours to your case, Nigel.

Your case, as I understand it, is that it will all turn out for the best in the end.

While I fully understand that experts are not always right, I prefer to stick with the opinion of most of the world economists rather than the follow Farage brigade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 09:50 AM

Invoking Article 50 was a separate issue from the referendum vote, which was advisory, lest we forget. Had it not been a separate issue, there would have been no need for a parliamentary vote on it. As it happens, I was not disenfranchised by the fact that no major party opposed Article 50, any more than you were disenfranchised by the fact that no major party was in favour of leaving the EU. There is no rule in parliamentary democracy that states that both sides of an issue must be represented in Parliament. No major party now opposes abortion or is pro-hanging or pro-foxhunting with dogs. No major party wants homosexuality to be illegal. No major party is opposed to gay marriage. Millions of people in this country disagree with each of those consensuses. They are not disenfranchised. They merely live in a parliamentary democracy in which some things are inevitably disagreeable to some people. Lots of people even. You can't just cherrypick your own bee-in-bonnet issue to moan that you were disenfranchised over it and ignore the other issues just because it suits your supposed case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:40 AM

So any time you feel that Parliament's makeup doesn't allow for the reflections of your own views you're disenfranchised, eh?

No, my single vote makes very little difference, but when neither of the major parties represent the view of the majority of the voting public then the public are being disenfranchised.


do you think that I'm disenfranchised by the fact that the major parties both voted for Article 50, a move I vehemently disagreed with,

No.
The issuing of Article 50 was a direct consequence of the referendum to leave the EU. You had already had your opportunity to vote on that. An opportunity offered to the whole electorate of the UK, and one in which the majority of those voting chose to end our membership of the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:31 AM

Which dictionary?
Cambridge online


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:25 AM

Resorting to arguments as to who promised what in the context of UK party politics is specious, but ok, I'll join in anyway. The Tories promised to get rid of the deficit by 2015 and to reduce net migration to the tens of thousands. Cameron promised to trigger Article 50 by June 28 2016 in the event of a leave vote. Any more for any more?

Just a small point: the "swivel-eyed loons" remark was made by a party aide, much to Cameron's embarrassment. Not so much a case of "the Tories" saying it, more a case of a lack of internal party discipline.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:11 AM

So any time you feel that Parliament's makeup doesn't allow for the reflections of your own views you're disenfranchised, eh? So what about those other examples I gave you, and do you think that I'm disenfranchised by the fact that the major parties both voted for Article 50, a move I vehemently disagreed with? Or is it ok when the boot's on the other foot? And which dictionary, Nigel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:10 AM

UKIP could have been stopped by any governing party worth its salt by showing them up as the petty xenophobic racists that they are.

You forget how rude the Tories were about them. They did accuse them of racism and called them "swivel eyed loons."
The fact remains that outside of Westminster most people did not like being in the EU.
UKIP offered a referendum and that would have won them a large vote in the general election. They had already won the EU election.

That is why all the parties, not just the Tories, also promised a referendum.


Yes, but the Labour Party have a history of "promising a referendum".


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:54 AM

taking Steve's suggestion I consulted a dictionary:

disenfranchise

not having the right to vote, or a similar right, or having had that right taken away:

?having no power to make people listen to your opinion or to affect the society you live in:


I think that the second point aptly shows that the majority of voters were previously disenfranchised over the matter of leaving the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:51 AM

UKIP could have been stopped by any governing party worth its salt by showing them up as the petty xenophobic racists that they are.

You forget how rude the Tories were about them. They did accuse them of racism and called them "swivel eyed loons."
The fact remains that outside of Westminster most people did not like being in the EU.
UKIP offered a referendum and that would have won them a large vote in the general election. They had already won the EU election.

That is why all the parties, not just the Tories, also promised a referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:49 AM

"Labour Party polling stations" implies that elections for Radcliffe Council and the Bury and Radcliffe constituency (as was) were outrageously rigged. Insert "at" at your leisure!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:41 AM

When governments make decisions that you disagree with, you are not "disenfranchised." You will have had your say in who governs, and next time round you can vote them out. There is no democratic imperative that ensures that both sides of an argument are represented in parliament. Millions of people agreed with Enoch Powell's call for repatriation of blacks. The fact that no major party backed him does not mean that those millions were disenfranchised. Millions of people would like to bring back hanging. The fact that there is no parliamentary appetite for it doesn't mean that all those people are disenfranchised. The fact that there is no split along party lines for legalising fox hunting with dogs doesn't mean that thousands of hooray Henrys are disenfranchised. You have the vote and things don't always go your way. Not since I was a little lad collecting numbers for the Labour Party polling stations, except for a couple of years when I lived in Poplar, have I lived in a constituency that had a Labour MP but that doesn't mean that I've been disenfranchised (or that I've always lived in posh areas). You're disenfranchised, or at least have yet to become enfranchised, because you're under 18 for example, when you're prevented from voting at all. The referendum result was a complete disaster and I was devastated by it, but, as I was allowed to vote in it, I'm not disenfranchised by the outcome. Your complaint that no major party wanted out of the EU rings hollow now that no major party has either voted against having a referendum or against Article 50. You're hardly fighting my corner for me, are you, about the fact that, according to your stance (not mine), I've been disenfranchised? To take your argument to the absurd, no major party is in support of making free chip butties available on street corners at Saturday kicking-out time, a policy I could find myself fighting for (and losing). Doesn't mean I'd be disenfranchised, no matter how foolish tbe decision to reject the policy.   Resort to a dictionary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:14 AM

Nonsense. UKIP could have been stopped by any governing party worth its salt by showing them up as the petty xenophobic racists that they are. Their ridiculous claims about immigrants ruining the economy should have been show up for what they were - Just scapegoating to distract people away from how the country had been mismanaged. Unfortunately Cameron and Co were the party guilty of mismanagement and they compounded it by being so shit scared of an unelected pressure group that they caved in.

Nevertheless, the outcome of the referendum has made it patently clear that leaving the EU was the will of the majority of the voters*. As neither 'major party' was going to move on the matter, they were right to fear that UKIP would continue to gain in influence if nothing was done about the call for separation from the EU. As such a referendum was an option which avoided splitting either party over the issue. It was a referendum of convenience. The major parties underestimated the numbers who would support Brexit.

*voters: Those who actually vote, as opposed to 'electorate' or 'population'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:53 AM

Along came UKIP, and they started getting sufficient votes that the only way they could be stopped was by the promise of a referendum.

Nonsense. UKIP could have been stopped by any governing party worth its salt by showing them up as the petty xenophobic racists that they are. Their ridiculous claims about immigrants ruining the economy should have been show up for what they were - Just scapegoating to distract people away from how the country had been mismanaged. Unfortunately Cameron and Co were the party guilty of mismanagement and they compounded it by being so shit scared of an unelected pressure group that they caved in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:46 AM

Sorry Nigel, I take that back. You and I understand that but those who say the Lords are overruling the Commons may not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:43 AM

Yes, Nigel, we all understand that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:07 AM

A review

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00344890600583792

My view is that a referendum is the best way of resolving contentious issues. But there is no point in having a referendum if it's supremacy is undermined by parliament. It make the entire exercise pointless.
Additionally if Parliament destroys the referendum result is it not deliberately in defiance of the electorate?
Where does that leave democracy?

There is no point in having referendums if the existing legislation is so weak that the outcome cannot be enforced. This is a glaring omission Parliament has made no attempt to rectify. It will make any future referendum a meaningless farce.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:03 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:16 PM
. . .
At the time of posting that weed smoking bunch of hippies the House of Lords has defeated the Governemt three times and extracted at least one and arguably two concessions. Such revisions of proposed law is their role in our Parliamentary system, as we all know.


Revision of proposed laws is not the role of the House of Lords. Suggesting revisions is.
It may be known as a 'revising chamber' but the revisions are only recommendations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:54 AM

What is again being conveniently forgotten in the claims that we should have left this to parliament is the reason we had the referendum. In our (effectively) two-party state, both parties were in favour of remaining in the EU, meaning that the many people who disagreed with our membership had no opportunity to be represented.
Along came UKIP, and they started getting sufficient votes that the only way they could be stopped was by the promise of a referendum.
The result of the referendum showed just how large a proportion of the voting electorate had previously been disenfranchised by the two-party system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:16 AM

I agree entirely about the last couple of comments on referendums. Since it was first mooted and ever since I have said that a referendum is a way for the government to cop out of the decision taking process that we elect and pay them to make. Ludicrous state of affairs when we pay our MPs thousand of pounds to do a job and then have to do it ourselves, without the tools needed to make those decisions.

I have been told, by the remainders on here, that I am only against referendums because it went the wrong way. That merely highlights the point that these people have no idea what they are talking about. Or voting for!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:36 PM

I actually cross-posted with you there despite the time discrepancy - unbeknownst to me my post hadn't taken; fortunately I'd copied it before my failed submit...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:32 PM

But there is a big difference between voting for a government that can be ousted after four or five years and voting for what is in effect, in your or my lifetime anyway, an irrevocable decision to leave the EU, with all the complex implications that go with it. Parenthetically, note that a decision to remain would NOT have been irrevocable - we just have another vote, innit, an internal UK matter. In fact, that's what we've done - it's just that the next vote was 41 years after the last one, that's all. What I'd do about it is keep the current electoral system in place (tweaked? Discuss...) but NEVER have referendums. I thought remain was a shoo-in but I still vehemently argued against having the referendum, using the same argument as here. I'm sure my posts in that regard are checkable, though I'm not bothering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:10 PM

I'd say you go for a system very like the one we have now, where people elect politicians, who take the decisions and after four or five years they can throw them out.

What you don't do is confuse that by having referendums where MPs are unable to do what some believe to be sensible in order to satisfy people with "zero of little knowledge of the issues".


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:50 PM

Giving the average voter an opportunity to vote is stupid. Most have zero to little knowledge of the issues, or short and long term implications of each particular outcome. Arguing about who knew what prior to a vote is futile because of what I stated above.
   The real problem is:It is a deeply flawed system but, in order to preserve democracy, what could you replace it with?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:52 PM

"A vote to leave the EU meant precisely that and included all the garbage that sails with her."

If you're including the customs union and single market in that "garbage," Iains, then that's incorrect, as is proven by the nations that subscribe to them yet are not members of the EU. We can leave the EU but stay in one or both of those. Before the vote a large percentage of prospective leave voters didn't exactly see it your way, according to that YouGov poll. I suppose they were just confused. Which could mean that the result was affected by a lot of confused voters. That's worrying, innit...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:18 PM

Thanks DMcG


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:16 PM

here you are, Raggytash.


At the time of posting that weed smoking bunch of hippies the House of Lords has defeated the Governemt three times and extracted at least one and arguably two concessions. Such revisions of proposed law is their role in our Parliamentary system, as we all know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:40 PM

The fishing industry has been commented on recently. An article in todays Guardian by Polly Toynbee helps to refute some of the claims that have been made by posters on here.

Could someone kindly do the honours and supply a link to it.

There article tag line is "Propaganda delivered the Brexit vote but it can't land more fish"

Thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:14 PM

You seem to have forgotten that the whole point of the Withdrawal Bill is to move certain EU laws and regulations into the domain of the U.K. Law. These laws are ones that could be moved, just like the rest. Or are you suggesting no laws at all should be moved under the Withdrawal Bill, in which case there would be no point in the government bringing the Bill in the first place.

I was never a hippy, by the way., as photos from my Univeristy days demonstrate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:04 PM

A vote to leave the EU meant precisely that and included all the garbage that sails with her. Existing legislation may be retained, modified, or junked. Your continuing drivel about it meant this or it meant that is simply drivel. Leave means leave. This must be the only forum around where a simple word like leave finds dispute as to it's meaning. You all sound like a bunch of aged hippies that have been at the weed for too long.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 12:57 PM

BREAKING:Government defeated on EU Charter of Fundamental Rights

EU Withdrawal Bill

House of Lords

Parliament

Peers vote 316 to 245 for crossbencher Lord Pannick's amendment, which aims to ensure that the majority of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights is carried over to form part of domestic law

=========
No doubt we will be assured that in the referendum vote people were insisting they didn't want their rights protected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 12:24 PM

Dave,
Apparently they(the opposition) are there to support the government.

No-one said any such thing Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:30 AM

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/tag/role-of-opposition-parties/


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:13 AM

"The Race Relations Act of 1965 outlaws discrimination on 'the grounds of colour, race or ethnic or national origin."

Again, implicit in that is that discrimination can be on the grounds of race, or of national origin. The two are clearly different, so while it may be discrimination, it is not racism.


By that logic, it isn't racist to discriminate on grounds of colour then either! Colour and race as just as separated in that definition as are race and national origin. Tell us why you think it's called the RACE Relations Act, Nigel...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:10 AM

Ignorance? 25% of Americans do not know there are 3 branches of government or how many Supreme Court judges there are.


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Mudcat time: 25 April 10:13 PM EDT

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