BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 11:54 AM

for crying out loud professor, please stop being so obtuse.

If you want to believe that half a cent rise equates to soaring, carry on, be my guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 11:57 AM

I did go back 16 months (if you check the dates) unfortunately a typo shows it as 6 months. so, to correct:

Continuing to fall (overall) to make the pound show a better view of its true value.
The fall started well before the vote, even though all the pundits thought we would stay in the EU.
A re-balancing was overdue.
25/2/15 (16 months before vote) 1.3665
23/6/16 (day of vote) 1.305
31/10/17 (yesterday) 1.141
And yes, it's not exactly 16 months as rates aren't normally shown for 'non-trading-days'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 11:59 AM

I am more inclined to believe the Telegraph and Independent on matters of economy than you Rag.
Can you find any reliable source that agrees with you on this?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 12:07 PM

I've not looked, fortunately I am capable of understanding that a rise of less than one half of one percent does not equate to "soaring"

Sadly you do not seem to have the same faculty. Your loss, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 12:09 PM

Sorry Nigel I read the 6 months part not the actual date.

As in "25/2/15 (6 months before vote) 1.3665"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 02:50 PM

Rag,
I've not looked,

I have, and there is nothing out there that agrees with you on this.
The growth figures were good and the sterling rise they triggered were significant.
You got it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 04:27 PM

What's all this "a rebalancing was overdue?" An excuse for the Tories by a Tory. Bet you wouldn't have been saying that when Labour Harold devalued the pound. By precisely the same percentage as with this devaluation, by the way. At a time when there is severe pay restraint and has been for years, the devaluation has resulted in inflation with which pay can't keep up. You keep forgetting that your mighty leader Maggie made sure that we would be net importers of goods for ever more.

As for Keith's clutching at straws re UK growth, here are the facts. [Source, Independent yesterday.]

The eurozone's economy once again grew faster than the UK's in the third quarter of 2017, according to the latest data, confirming the divergence in economic fortunes between Britain and the continent as Brexit approaches in 2019.

Eurostat estimated on Tuesday that the collective GDP of the 19 states of the single currency area grew by 0.6 per cent in the three months to September, faster than the 0.4 per cent growth registered by the UK over the same period.

This follows eurozone GDP growth of 0.7 per cent in the second quarter, when the UK grew by just 0.3 per cent, also the weakest rate in the G7.

On an annual basis the GDP growth divergence was even more stark, with the eurozone expanding by 2.5 per cent in the third quarter while UK growth was just 1.5 per cent.

The eurozone is experiencing a cyclical recovery, after years of rolling financial crisis, while the UK has been hit this year by a rise in inflation stemming from the slump in sterling in the wake of last year?s Brexit vote.

Business investment has also been weak in the UK due to firms' concerns about trade arrangements after March 2019.

Aren't facts inconvenient, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 05:07 PM

Those 50 odd reports are back in the news. Here is clipping from the BBC:

A Labour motion requiring the government to release assessments of the impact of Brexit has been passed by MPs.

Speaker John Bercow told MPs he could consider contempt of Parliament claims if the government fails to release Brexit impact assessments.

Labour's motion which asked for a "humble address" requesting the Queen to direct Brexit Secretary David Davis to release the documents,

There was confusion during the debate about whether a vote triggered by Labour's use of an arcane parliamentary procedure would be binding.

Mr Bercow said motions of this kind have "traditionally been regarded as binding or effective".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 04:27 AM

I clutch no straws Steve. I just pointed out that the growth figures were so good they triggered a rise in sterling, contradicting Rag's statement about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 09:56 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 04:27 PM
What's all this "a rebalancing was overdue?" An excuse for the Tories by a Tory.
The Financial Times was saying this in 2014, well before the referendum

As for Keith's clutching at straws re UK growth, here are the facts. [Source, Independent yesterday.]
The eurozone's economy once again grew faster than the UK's in the third quarter of 2017, according to the latest data, confirming the divergence in economic fortunes between Britain and the continent as Brexit approaches in 2019.
Eurostat estimated on Tuesday that the collective GDP of the 19 states of the single currency area grew by 0.6 per cent in the three months to September, faster than the 0.4 per cent growth registered by the UK over the same period.

This follows eurozone GDP growth of 0.7 per cent in the second quarter, when the UK grew by just 0.3 per cent, also the weakest rate in the G7.
Okay, taking those figures as accurate (assuming you're not posting them as either deliberate lies, or 'whimsy')
Rate of Eurozone growth is falling (from 0.7% to 0.6%)
Rate of UK growth is increasing (from 0.3% to 0.4%)
If this were to continue (and I make no claim that it will) which is going to show to be the stronger economy?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 10:01 AM

Nigel, do you want to deal with what if's ........ really?

The fact is that the growth in the UK economy is the lowest in Europe, in the chart given only Brazil was lower.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 10:06 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 10:01 AM
Nigel, do you want to deal with what if's ........ really?
The fact is that the growth in the UK economy is the lowest in Europe, in the chart given only Brazil was lower.

I was responding to Steve Shaw's post, and pointing out that there is more than one way to read the statistics he 'quoted'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 01:54 PM

The statistics I quoted were taken directly from the Independent, you insulting bugger. No lies, no whimsy. Congratulations on graduating from the Teribus/Iains school of social primitivism.

By the way, since I to!d you yesterday about my euro purchase, the pound has gone down two and a half cents (on the Caxton website). So if half a cent up is soaring, what's a sudden two and a half cents drop, Keith? Nosediving? Plummeting? A Nigel rebalancing? Being shat on from a great height? Still, there's always tomorrow...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 02:50 PM

The mighty Rees Mogg and the bias of the BBC:   Luvvin it!


https://order-order.com/2017/11/02/bbc-home-of-despitebrexit/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 03:29 PM

Do you agree with Jacob Rees-Mogg (mighty or otherwise) about the release of the 58 Brexit impact papers to the select committee? The clip below is from the Express, but there is the equivalent from other sources.

===
Tory Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) told the debate: "I have no doubt this motion is, in all senses, binding.

"It is not parliamentary wallpaper. It's exercising one of our most ancient rights - to demand papers."

He said he would have supported the Government if it had opposed the motion, adding: "In the event it does not, it must publish these papers to the Brexit select committee in full."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 03:45 PM

DMcG I have no problem with the papers being released providing we have some idea as to how they were compiled. Keeping the contents secret merely fuels the controversy.
and yes I do think Rees Mogg is mighty. Both for entertainment and eloquence coupled with a pretty sharp intellect.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 03:49 PM

Thanks for that, Iains. I did, however, meant that to be addressed to all readers, not just to you. So I will be interested to hear from Keith, Teribus, Steve and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 04:25 PM

"...a pretty sharp intellect."

Lacks intellect and conceals this from the Little Englanders and other associated tory dangleberries by a posh accent, an affected look of permanent befuddlement and constant repeating of old tropes and hackneyed Daily Mail bullshite. This stuff gives the monarchists, admires of the aristocracy and the other millions of happily submissive 'subjects' a boner for sure, but it doesn't fool everyone else.

The man's a complete and utter twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 05:18 PM

Some of us feel that way about clot corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 08:17 PM

The. more you call him names, the more we know how much you're worried about him. If Jezza ever came on here he would take your silly name-calling as a compliment.

Mummy! Mummy! When I grow up I want to be Iains!

Don't be silly, dear! You can't do both!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 04:25 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 01:54 PM
The statistics I quoted were taken directly from the Independent, you insulting bugger. No lies, no whimsy. Congratulations on graduating from the Teribus/Iains school of social primitivism.

Given your history of misquoting/lying, or stating that 'facts' supplied were mere whimsy, my comments were quite fair.

Most reasonable posters here, when quoting 'facts' from other sources will at least provide a link to those sources to allow people to check them for themselves. Your failure to do so increases the possibility that you are just inventing figures to suit your own arguments.

I have not insulted you, I have tried to respond to your unreliable posts with accuracy. This is always difficult when faced with someone who is prepared to change facts to suit themselves, or pass off as 'facts' something they later declare was 'mere whimsy'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:03 AM

When I grow up I want to be Iains!

No chance Shaw! I am far too discriminating to allow someone like you to even dream of being a clone of me. For a start you cannot tell fact from fiction. Need I go on? Your deficiencies are woeful.

A lot like Corbyn not attending the state banquet last night. A particularly insulting gesture to a visiting Head of State.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 08:17 PM
The. more you call him names, the more we know how much you're worried about him. If Jezza ever came on here he would take your silly name-calling as a compliment.

So I should take the fact that you called me an "insulting bugger" as a sign of your insecurity?

Duly noted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM

Iains, I had a quick look through the news and could find no reference to Corbyn missing a state banquet last night, could you provide a link if you have one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM

Correction: My apologies.I should have said a formal dinner, a somewhat lower key affair. Link below from the daily wail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5044983/How-Corbyn-speaker-hardline-Islamic-meeting.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:34 AM

Hmmm The Henry Jackson Society, hardly a non partisan organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:40 AM

I do not know what sort of message Corbyn is trying to send but given recent accusations of antisemitism in his party, to refuse to attend a dinner marking the centenary of the Balfour Declaration sends a very clear message. (To Me anyway) This message is further reinforced by his attendance previously at an event held by the Muslim Engagement and Development Group held in the House of Commons.

The controversial organisation was this week described as an 'extremist-linked group' by the foreign affairs think-tank The Henry Jackson Society.

This seems a very "political" stance he is taking even for a politician

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM

A nice balanced view from the Daily Heil as usual :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 06:16 AM

Perhaps more disconcerting is a senior member of government, Priti Patel, holding undisclosed meetings with political parties in Israel without informing the Foreign Office, allegedly discussing official business. Even more worrying is that she was accompanied by a lobbyist for the Conservative Friends of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 06:32 AM

Raggytash. I tend to agree with you. I have nothing against Israelis,
but their government and their influence (dual nationality politicians?)
worries me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 08:16 AM

No surprise that a friend of Hamas and Hezbollah would snub an event commemorating the Balfour Declaration.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 01:58 PM

Well it would have helped had the Balfour Declaration fulfilled both halves of its promise. And, for a century, it has been controversial. When a thing is controversial it means that some people will agree with it and some won't. Because you agree with it it doesn't give you a monopoly on the truth of the matter. In such circumstances, criticising those who demur for being true to themselves is just bigotry.   

Knock it off, Nigel. I gave you statistics from a reliable source, which I mentioned, that was thoroughly easy to check. Your insinuation that I was in some way trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes over those figures is an absolute disgrace. T(e insecurity lies entirely with you, as you know t(st the fig7res give an accurate picture of the current situation regarding the UK and EU economies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 02:23 PM

Oops, hit send before editing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 02:39 PM

and even after recognising the fact you leave the end of the post as gibberish. Or is this a progression from conflating fact and fiction?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 08:13 PM

Don't be stupid. I explained that I'd sent the post prematurely by accident before I'd finished editing it. I could have redone the thing but I judged that its meaning was clear enough despite the cockups, and I did explain myself. You know, Iains, many of your recent posts have been riddled with awful errors and poor grammar and I haven't said anything about it. The mark of a sourfaced desperado who has nothing much to say is that he'll nitpick in the way you've just done. Your best bet is either to stick to the substantive or just hold your tongue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 02:21 AM

A report today suggests that household costs could rise by up to ?930 for the least able to afford such.

Possible price increase

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 03:26 AM

"I could have redone the thing but I judged that its meaning was clear enough despite the cockups"    Stupid boy!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM

For Iains? benefit:

THE ORIGINAL:
?T(e insecurity lies entirely with you, as you know t(st the fig7res give an accurate picture of the current situation regarding the UK and EU economies.?

WOT I INTENDED:

?The insecurity lies entirely with you, as you know that the figures give an accurate picture of the current situation regarding the UK and EU economies.?

I sent the former by accidentally hitting the submit button before correcting that final sentence. Hands up all those who thought the original was so indecipherable as to be rendered gibberish (his word).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 06:40 AM

Knock it off, Nigel. I gave you statistics from a reliable source, which I mentioned, that was thoroughly easy to check. Your insinuation that I was in some way trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes over those figures is an absolute disgrace. The insecurity lies entirely with you, as you know that the figures give an accurate picture of the current situation regarding the UK and EU economies.
If we accept the figures, you still fail to respond to the meaning (at least one of the possible meanings) that I showed, based on those figures:

Eurostat estimated on Tuesday that the collective GDP of the 19 states of the single currency area grew by 0.6 per cent in the three months to September, faster than the 0.4 per cent growth registered by the UK over the same period.
This follows eurozone GDP growth of 0.7 per cent in the second quarter, when the UK grew by just 0.3 per cent, also the weakest rate in the G7.
Okay, taking those figures as accurate:
Rate of Eurozone growth is falling (from 0.7% to 0.6%) quarter on quarter.
Rate of UK growth is increasing (from 0.3% to 0.4%) quarter on quarter.
If this were to continue (and I make no claim that it will) which is going to show to be the stronger economy?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 06:47 AM

Oh blimey. The question mark gremlin strikes again. Yertis, corrected, always for the benefit of darling Iains:

For Iains' benefit:

THE ORIGINAL:
"T(e insecurity lies entirely with you, as you know t(st the fig7res give an accurate picture of the current situation regarding the UK and EU economies."

WOT I INTENDED:

"The insecurity lies entirely with you, as you know that the figures give an accurate picture of the current situation regarding the UK and EU economies."

I sent the former by accidentally hitting the submit button before correcting that final sentence. Hands up all those who thought the original was so indecipherable as to be rendered gibberish (his word).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 06:55 AM

You know better than that, Nigel. You are the one insisting we look at long term trends, and then you want us to extrapolate on two adjacent measurements?

But if we really want to split hairs, there is not really enough information, because the figures are rounded to one decimal place and they each have a margin of error, so it is theoretically possible, albeit unlikely, that the growth is actually the other way round, if we had the underlying actual figures once everything is known.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 06:55 AM

Once again, Nigel, I stated the position as it currently obtains. Your predictions are just that. Predictions, in your case with a healthy tinge of Tory brexiteer hopefulness. The slight improvement in UK growth your hope is predicated on was a phenomenon that occurred over a single quarter, and in recent historical terms and in comparison with other major economies an annual growth rate of 1.5% (that's the extrapolation from the unrounded quarterly figure) is still weak. Let's see how it goes, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 08:14 AM

Regardless of any opinions or projections, which have been wrong in most cases over the last couple of years, we are leaving the EU and the authority of the EU.
Given that FACT, would you not be better building up our country's future economic position, rather than continually trying to undermine it.   It looks very much like a bunch of extremely bad losers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 09:01 AM

"...we are leaving the EU and the authority of the EU"

In a way. If we wish to trade with the EU we will need to comply with laws laid down by the remaining 27, although of course we'll not have a say in how those laws are formulated any more.


"It looks very much like a bunch of extremely bad losers."

Damn right. Democracy works two ways and now we get to have our say in what your idiot Brexiteer leaders are doing. So far: Squabbling amongst themselves and fucking it up, it appears.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 10:10 AM

Most of you may not see the forest because Russian trees and your own citizens block your view.

I believe you have a Russian parasitical viral cyber infection.
Yes this sounds preposterous. At first.
A little infection goes a long way and could completely destroy the European Union and NATO from the inside.

While waging a nonviolent war against the West from within, Russia engaged in kinetic action from Ukraine and Crimea. Over the course of Putin?s 17-year reign, Russian defense spending has increased 20-fold. Cyber war via social media is the most bang for the ruble than any other disruption weapon. Kremlin rhetoric over the past several years has also shifted in a disturbingly confrontational direction. Cyber war took off its gloves once the US stuxnet was discovered thanks to Israel's mistake.

Europe is America?s most important ally, with whom we share values and interests. Abandoning Europe at this time would create a political and security vacuum on the Continent, one that would inevitably be filled by Russia.

In response to Brexit, the U.S. election and the rise of populists across Europe, many in the West are beginning to question the assumptions upon which the postwar liberal world order stands. Protectionism remains wrong, both morally and economically.

Increasingly, calls for reassessing the liberal world order are finding an audience on this side of the ocean, where voices say that it has outlived its usefulness. Meanwhile, a leading figure in what passes for the pro-Trump intellectual movement, who now serves as a high-ranking national security official in the administration, asks of NATO, What is the alliance for once its original purpose has evaporated? The original purpose of NATO was ?to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.? With exception of that last part about Germany, whose neighbors want it to play a more assertive role in continental defense and security, the founding rationale for the Atlantic Alliance endures. NATO need strengthening, not a shutdown.

The West wants peace and Russia wants victory. These desires are incompatible. Those who cherish liberal democracy and wish to see it endure must accept the fact that a Russian regime is once against trying to debilitate and subvert the free world.
While Russia today may not be as conventionally strong an adversary as it was during the Cold War, the threat it poses is more diffuse. Russia is as much an enemy today as it was a generation ago, and we need to adopt a more hardheaded, adversarial footing and mentality to defeat it.

In a globalized world where the criminal influences of Russian money and disinformation can more easily corrupt us than when an Iron Curtain divided Europe, and where the ideological terrain is more confusing than the Cold War?s rigid bipolarity.

Russia presents different challenges than it did a generation ago, not the least of which is maintaining Western unity against a more ambiguous adversary skilled in fake news. Has Farage committed treason? I don't know but that is up to figure out. It appears to me you squabble among yourselves trying to determine what Brexit has to personally enrich or hurt you.

You as a country are not suffering an auto immune Brexit disease you are facing a Russian parasite attack and don't seem to know it.

It took awhile but America now knows it, and the parasites are already deep in the executive branch. ( I hate that this sounds like something Joe McCarthy would say)

A quote by Putin still sticks in my mind when asked about elections,
"Its not who gets the most votes, its who counts the votes".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 10:17 AM

It looks very much like a bunch of extremely bad losers.

Same line that Donal-Buncombe uses & just as accurate.....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 11:04 AM

You have absolutely nothing to gain by continuing your campaign of denigration.....not only of the government, but of the British people and democracy itself.

We look and laugh at the deniers of democracy in America, but you people are as bad if not worse, at least we have partially overcome the divisiveness of extreme Party Politics.....all of which are irrelevant to the future of our respective nations.
Don is phobic regarding Russia, but President Putin has popularity figures that Western politicians can only dream about.....they don't have the power to change anything........even if they wanted to.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 11:47 AM

We look and laugh at the deniers of democracy in America

So now you're laughing at tRUMP, Ake? I thought you adored him!

President Putin has popularity figures that Western politicians can only dream about

As is the case with most tin-pot dictators.

your campaign of denigration.....not only of the government, but of the British people and democracy itself.

Say what? Get a grip, man!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 12:05 PM

The "deniers of democracy" in America won the popular vote by three million. The "deniers of democracy" here are trying to overcome the dereliction of democracy that a terrible referendum campaign visited on this country. And, oddly, we appear to be doing it democratically, by doing no more than exercising free speech peacefully. I wouldn't have it any other way. Would you, akenaton?

I could have sworn that deniers had something to do with the thickness of the nylon in ladies' stockings...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 12:27 PM

Not everything is as it appears, especially in covert war.

England owes a great deal to the use of subterfuge, distraction and camouflage. i.e. Calais.

The West used to be covert Masters but Russia has weaponized social media to the point even I hold strangers suspect. To even mention the subject sounds paranoid and stupid.

180 million Facebook customers to covert Russian propaganda and argument lit fuse subjects is a big number.