BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:08 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:23 PM
So that wasn't him posing in front of the bus with the '£350 million for the NHS' lie on the side then?

He may well have posed by a similar bus. But it has already been made perfectly clear (to most)that the bus actually said "We currently send the EU £ 350 million each week let's fund the NHS instead"
That does not mean that the whole £ 350 million will go to the NHS.
You may infer what you wish from the statement, but that doesn't mean that your inference is what was intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:17 PM

But a very great many feeble-minded, easily-influenced people believed that it meant the whole £350 million would go to the NHS - which is precisely the result that the Leave Campaign intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:35 PM

I don't care whether they said they would give £350million to the NHS on a bus, Nigel. I do care whether they said they would give it. I have posted a link below to a leaflet where they said it. Keith has been gracious enough to comment on it. That poster was from the co-chair of the Vote Leave campaign. It was also shown on 8th November by Simon Stevens when asking for better funding from the NHS.

So please, Nigel, explain how you interpret that poster.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 05:37 PM

Er, Nige, it was really only £160 million... ROTFLM bleedin' AO emojee...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 04:03 AM

"Labour is not morally bound to continue to support brexit in my opinion,"
Any party even only paying lip service to democracy is morally bound to the decision od a referendum - your party has proved over and over again that election promises and adherence to the people's wishes are not worth the paper they're printed on at election time
Whatever number voted at the time of the referendum, now the result has turned into the fiasco it has become, the Labour Party has not decided to abandon the decision but has moved towards calling a FURTHER REFERENDUM to decide whether the first decision was a wise one
That is what a responsible democratic party should do, given the circumstances.
In contrast, after a shambolic election result, your lot has done a deal with a party with terrorist links and which is up to its ares in a corruption scandal, BUNGED THEM A BILLION of TAXPAYERS MONEY in order to bail themselves out of a self-created mess
Now that's what I call democracy - Tory style!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 04:33 AM

Given the appalling lack of accuracy of recent polls I would have thought even the sandal wearing, pinkie gardianistas would think twice about predicating a course of action based on their results.
Lets face it, if corbyn openly advocates remain then he is yesterdays geriatric-a crumbled crumblie, and be thrown off his perch before you can say jack robinson.
Labour are no longer a political party- they are a nonstop comedy act.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 04:41 AM

Another whiff of labour hypocrisy:

https://order-order.com/2017/11/24/labour-call-centre-staff-on-12-hours-a-week-get-30p-pay-rise/

GUIDO the man that tells like it is

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 04:59 AM

Steve,
The pound has soared downward by a cent and a half against the euro since Tuesday. Dunno where you're getting all this optimism from, Keith.

Not mine. I only gave a quote from a financial report.
The pound did well but the Euro did a little better.
Where did Rag get his pessimism from?

BWM,
He read it in 'The Planet Zog News'. It's the equivalent of the Daily Mail up there on Planet Zog.

I gave the source and it said where it first appeared.
What do you dispute from the quote I gave.
If you are not talking bollocks, please be specific about what they got wrong.

But a very great many feeble-minded, easily-influenced people believed that it meant the whole ?350 million would go to the NHS - which is precisely the result that the Leave Campaign intended.

It was challenged at the time by the other side, and the dispute thoroughly aired and put to the people.
The electorate can not be dismissed as "feeble minded."
The Leave side won fair and square.

DMcG, did that poster appear in public during the debate?
As I said, I have no recollection of it. Have you?
It was far more contentious than the bus statement, so why was only that discussed?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 05:23 AM

"GUIDO the man that tells like it is
Fawkes is an extremist right wing Tory blogger and appears to be the only source for this 'information'
You've been given the facts about Tory democracy and ints links with a terrorist-involved party
You respond with a suggestion that the Labour Party would be better employed looking after its own majority rather than doing its job as a democratic party - alongside a right-wing blog which has nothing to do with what is beiong discussed
I assume that, as neither of you Tory flag-waggers have nothing to say about the £Billion bung to an iffy party, you and Keith are perfectly happy about that behaviour.
The leave side voted largely on the racist promise to rid Britain of asylum seekers and economic and war refugees from states we have supported with arms.
Nothing "fair and square" about that - in fact it's somewhat sordid behaviour that debases the British people.
Bus poster my arse - that's how election policy is put forward in Britain today - on lying promises of how much would be given to the NHS if "you vote for our side"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 05:27 AM

"Labour are no longer a political party- they are a nonstop comedy act."
From a supporting newsaper
THE TORIES ARE CRIMINALLY INCOMPETENT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 05:35 AM

DMcG, did that poster appear in public during the debate?

Completely beside the point. Is it from the Leave campaign team and does it promise to pay the NHS £350 million a week?

Need I spell this out? The Leave Campaign wrote both the leaflet and the bus slogan at more or less the same time. If we assume a modicum of an approval process, the same people approved both the bus slogan and the leaflet. Therefore, however ambiguous the bus slogan might be, you either have to believe that both the leaflet and the bus mean more or less the same thing, or that the same people are saying different at more or less the same time. Either way, it doesn't look good.


So once again, what do you say the leaflet promises?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 05:39 AM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:17 PM
But a very great many feeble-minded, easily-influenced people believed that it meant the whole ?350 million would go to the NHS - which is precisely the result that the Leave Campaign intended.

And you (from your earlier comment) clearly believe that that is what it said.
So I take it that you are describing yourself as feeble-minded.

No argument from me on that one!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 05:42 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:35 PM
I don't care whether they said they would give ?350million to the NHS on a bus, Nigel. I do care whether they said they would give it. I have posted a link below to a leaflet where they said it. Keith has been gracious enough to comment on it. That poster was from the co-chair of the Vote Leave campaign. It was also shown on 8th November by Simon Stevens when asking for better funding from the NHS.
So please, Nigel, explain how you interpret that poster.

I haven't yet seen the poster. But I was commenting on what it actually showed on the side of the bus, and correcting Backwoodsman's 'quote' of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 05:56 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 05:37 PM
Er, Nige, it was really only ?160 million... ROTFLM bleedin' AO emojee...

?160 million represented one method of coming up with a figure, but not the one Boris Johnson used. After the ?350 million figure was quoted Sir David Norgrove (Head of UK Statistics Authority) wrote to him (as quoted in most newspapers) complaining that he had "misused official statistics". Implicit in this was the fact that the figure quoted by Boris was part of "official statistics". As such the comment was something of an own-goal by David Norgrove.

ROTFLM bleedin' AO Sorry to hear you have a bleeding arse. Perhaps you need an urgent appointment with your doctor.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:02 AM

You haven't seen the leaflet, Nigel? Not even when I have invited you by name to look at it several times in this thread? Oh dear.

Never mind, here it is again

Now I freely admit, and did so when I first posted this, that the reverse is much more nuanced. But it is the big print headline occupying the whole of one side that contains the claim.

Now I don't know if you will accept this as a claim - you might think it a fake by someone, perhaps. But if you do accept it, then it follows the only response to comments on the bus that is "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" is to say "Yes, the Leave campaign did promise to give £350 million a week to the NHS, but not on the bus". Anything else would be saying "The bus didn't claim it" and hoping people assume what you mean is "The Leave campaign didn't claim it" which would be pretty deceitful.

And if the listener didn't know that - you would.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM

"From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:17 PM
But a very great many feeble-minded, easily-influenced people believed that it meant the whole ?350 million would go to the NHS - which is precisely the result that the Leave Campaign intended.

And you (from your earlier comment) clearly believe that that is what it said.
So I take it that you are describing yourself as feeble-minded.

No argument from me on that one!"

Hmmmm, you either don't 'get' irony, Nigel, or you're being deliberately, wilfully, obtuse.

And, to answer your rather insulting comment (why do you people always turn to insults when you know you have no case?) - no, I never believed it, just as I never believed the 'Take Back Control' and 'Stop Immigration' bullshit that the bunch of Brexit Vipers trotted out.

Have you got snow in Sheffield today?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:24 AM

Is it from the Leave campaign team and does it promise to pay the NHS £350 million a week?

Clearly yes, but did it ever form any part of the debate?
If not it has no relevance.

My guess it was rejected by Leave, but maybe led to the more realistic bus statement which did form a major part of the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:28 AM

My guess it was rejected by Leave

It was sent to Gisela Stuarts' constituents if no-one else. So, no, it was not rejected.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:37 AM

Are you sure? It certainly was never part of the national debate and so did not influence the result.
I can not believe that the official Leave campaign would make such a statement.
I really doubt that they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:48 AM

It was one of Gisela's leaflets, Keith. On the back is her face, some statements and, in line with the rules, the details of the printer. Were there some legal or journalistic investigation, it would be possible to find out, for example, how many were printed and when. Now it is in principle possible that she had enough printed to deliver to her constituents and then thought better of it and binned them, but again were there such an formal investigation there would be enough of an audit trail to be certain.

But in normal circumstances when a campaign prints a large number of leaflets it makes sure they are right before they are sent to the printers - though there as amusing examples online where this has not happened! - and, having had them printed, distributes them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:13 AM

"Giselda Stuart"
Interesting to examine where Grisly Giselda is coming from
An right-wing Blairite, the only Labour member to support George Dubya's re-election, when she wrote that "a victory for Democratic Party challenger, John Kerry, would prompt "victory celebrations among those who want to destroy liberal democracies. More terrorists and suicide bombers would step forward to become martyrs in their quest to destroy the West"
She is a signatory to the Ultra conservative Henry Jackson Society is a neo-conservative British foreign policy think tank.
As a leading figure of the "Leave" campaign, she has shared a platform with Boris Johnson and Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsome.
Her politics, personal associates and influences all indicate that her statement on the leaflet is indicative of the official policy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:15 AM

Funny how the party that is no longer a party but a non-stop comedy act run by a crumbling geriatric managed, against all the odds, to fire a serious shot across the Tories' bows and rob them of their parliamentary majority, innit? And do you know why it happened, Iains? Because the extremely complacent Tory party spent the whole election campaign painting Labour as a non-party, non-stop comedy act run by a crumbling geriatric. So my advice to you and the rest of you Tories is to keep it up!

Nigel, the real figure was nothing like £350 million. I gave you one source to explain that the real number was less than half of that. Rattling on about £350 million makes you look foolish. Whether it was on a bus, a poster or being spouted by a lying hound of a politician on the campaign trail, it was a massive lie right from the outset, the lie compounded by the very strong implication, declaration even, that it was money going to be freed for the NHS. If you tell a huge, bare-faced lie then pretend, as Keith as been doing, that it's all "just part of the debate," then you're conniving in dishonesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:38 AM

I see two separable lies, Steve. The first is the amount offered. The second, which really only started being claimed after the vote as best I remember (but I am happy to be corrected) is whether there was any specific promise that the NHS would get any "Brexit benefit" or whether that was just one suggestion amongst all the other worthy causes we might give funding to.

I must pick up another of Keith's points, if only because it gives me an irresistible pun. Whether £350 million would be given to the NHS was a key part of the campaign. It did influence the result, according to analysts. But it is completely irrelevant with the vehicle for that message was a bus or a leaflet. What matters was the promise, nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:39 AM

'whether', not 'with'. Wrecks the joke. Damn.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:53 AM

The promise that the leaflet appeared to make in its opening sentence was not supported by the rest of the leaflet.
The rest of the leaflet was in line with the bus claim, which was widely and openly debated so the electorate was fully informed of the challenges to it.

Both sides were put and the people decided, just as the jury does in a court case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:58 AM

The promise that the leaflet appeared to make in its opening sentence was not supported by the rest of the leaflet.

Again, I made that point in my original post about it, Keith. You have to remember that the reason these leaflets have large print and few words on one side is not because they think the recipients have startlingly poor eyesight. It is so the leaflet can be put in the window as a poster. Whereupon passers-by only get to see one side: the one with the promise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 08:20 AM

"Who has changed their mind, and what new information has emerged?"

If you need to ask the question, may I suggest you pay strict attention to the discussions and debates happening now via the media, social media and one-to-one conversations, and re-read my original post so you understand what I saying about Labour being able to change it's policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 08:44 AM

Interesting article on people who have changed their minds about their Brexit vote, and the science behind us changing our minds: ?I thought I?d put in a protest vote?: the people who regret voting leave

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:04 AM

If anyone put that leaflet in their windows, it was not enough for it to enter the national debate.
The much less contentious bus statement was debated, nationally and endlessly. The challenges to that statement would also have encompassed the leaflet claim if anyone had read it.
Why is this leaflet worthy of debate now?

Stu, any evidence that a significant number of people have changed their minds significantly more in one direction than the other?

What information has become available since the debate to make anyone change their mind anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:20 AM

"Much less contentious?" That £350 million was a downright lie. The true figure would have been less than half that. How much more contentious can you get?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:23 AM

Well, yes, we do need to get back to Post Brexit as in the thread title. But the reason talking about the leaflet is relevant is that today some Leavers say no claim was ever made about payments, and if so that is, I contend, a lie being made now. The leaflet is simply evidence that the statement made now is at the least open to argument.

But I am far more interested in what we do next. Hence why thw other thing I have been talking about is the border question.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:30 AM

"Funny how the party that is no longer a party but a non-stop comedy act run by a crumbling geriatric managed, against all the odds, to fire a serious shot across the Tories' bows and rob them of their parliamentary majority, innit?"

Funny that he ain't PM and likely never will be, innit?

AS I said previously: Labout, a non-stop comedy act run by a crumbling geriatric

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:41 AM

I nearly to your post earlier in this thread about repeating yourself, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:44 AM

Apologies once again. As I have said before, editing messages on my phone is troublesome. I wrote 'linked', changed it to 'referenced', and in the process ended up sending it with the word left out entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 11:07 AM

If we should ignore the Labour party because it is run by a "crumbling geriatic" should we also ignore comments posted here by people of a similar age?

I somehow think the number of posters would fall dramatically.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 11:20 AM

Steve,
"Much less contentious?" That £350 million was a downright lie. The true figure would have been less than half that. How much more contentious can you get?

That point was forcibly made at the time. and put to the electorate along with all the other disputed issues.
The people decided that Leave made a better case.

Rag, at 67 I consider myself too old to lead a major political party, but not too old to have relevant and informed opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 11:59 AM

I would put you up to lead a parade!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 12:13 PM

The people decided

Not "The" but "Some".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 12:19 PM

"Rag, at 67 I consider myself too old to lead a major political party, but not too old to have relevant and informed opinions."

Oh, Keith, never fear, it isn't your age that's the problem, believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 12:57 PM

"The people decided that Leave made a better case."
And it's astarted as I said it would
The people voted on the basis of being lide to by your friend Farage and the rest of the Ukip scum - as I said - divide and conquor
Brexit was carried through by people who wished to blame immigration for all the Britain's problems - that was the argument - cut down the number of immigrants and all our problems would be solved
That was apparent by the sharp rise in RACIST INCIDENTS immediately after the result was announced
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 01:18 PM

"Rag, at 67 I consider myself too old to lead a major political party, but not too old to have relevant and informed opinions."


Obviously gobby corbyn does not share your view, more's the pity!

Jim calling people scum just invites retaliation, you pillock.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 01:32 PM

"Jim calling people scum just invites retaliation, you pillock."
Do you really believe racist scum like Ukip shouldn't be described thus?
It's ok to call other party leaders "gobby" and its ok for you to abuse others on this forum but "hands off Ukiip " eh
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 02:17 PM

Well Jim for me there is a significant difference in degree between calling someone gobby and calling them scum.Maybe such subtleties are beyond you - you prefer both barrels at the outset.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 02:42 PM

"and calling them scum."
Is there really?
Ukip is a racist party that went into the Brexit campaign under a racist banner, with posters showing be-turbaned hordes invading our green and pleasant land
That’s “scummy” where I come from – interesting you don’t think so
Whatever the merits or de-merits of Corbyn, “mouthy” isn’t the word that springs to mind – on the contrary, some of us think he doesn’t say enough
He seems to be a fairly decadent and principled politician which knocks your crowd of crooked clowns and their dealings with terrorist linked parties into the next universe
You want “mouthy – try mad Boris, whose mouth has just run the risk of doubling the sentence of a British citizen imprisoned in Iran as a suspected political agitator
Now that’s what I call “mouthy” – inhumanly so
But don’t let me stop you – you go on defending the good name of Fuehrer Farrago
Get it all of your chest laddie
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 03:31 PM

Ah, the curse of those bloody question marks. I imagine you meant decent, not decadent, Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 04:04 PM

Here are some of the kind of bollock-brains that landed us in this BrexShit tragedy. "The EU took all our manufacturing, gave it to Germany, and gave us the silly banks"??? WT actual F??

My bloody dog's got more intelligence than that bunch of bone-heads.

More Planet-Zog-Dwellers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:38 PM

Well, John, as Churchill said (and I'm no fan), "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 08:22 PM

Do you like Theodore Roosevalt any better, Steve?

It may be that "the voice of the people is the voice of God" in fifty one cases out of a hundred, but in the remaining forty nine it is quite as likely to be the voice of the devil, or, what is still worse, the voice of a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 08:34 PM

I suppose democracy is the best of a bad lot, but, to me, democracy means voting in people who are then there to make the big decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 03:07 AM

¬(∃(¬p) ⇒ ∄p)

Woke up thinking that this morning. It summarises the business with leaflets and buses perfectly.

Maybe we need to use more formal logic on this thread.