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BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Stanron 24 Jun 18 - 09:44 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jun 18 - 06:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 18 - 04:16 PM
Bonzo3legs 24 Jun 18 - 04:08 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Jun 18 - 04:04 PM
DMcG 24 Jun 18 - 01:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 18 - 12:53 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 03:07 PM
DMcG 23 Jun 18 - 02:27 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 01:17 PM
DMcG 22 Jun 18 - 04:24 PM
Backwoodsman 22 Jun 18 - 04:23 PM
Raggytash 22 Jun 18 - 04:20 PM
DMcG 22 Jun 18 - 07:38 AM
DMcG 22 Jun 18 - 04:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 Jun 18 - 04:10 AM
DMcG 21 Jun 18 - 04:16 PM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jun 18 - 04:11 PM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jun 18 - 04:09 PM
DMcG 21 Jun 18 - 04:09 PM
DMcG 21 Jun 18 - 03:54 PM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jun 18 - 03:52 PM
Raggytash 21 Jun 18 - 03:33 PM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jun 18 - 03:27 PM
DMcG 21 Jun 18 - 02:31 PM
peteaberdeen 21 Jun 18 - 02:03 PM
DMcG 21 Jun 18 - 12:50 PM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jun 18 - 09:48 AM
Iains 20 Jun 18 - 10:55 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jun 18 - 09:27 AM
Iains 20 Jun 18 - 08:50 AM
DMcG 20 Jun 18 - 06:42 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jun 18 - 06:40 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Jun 18 - 06:21 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 18 - 03:52 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jun 18 - 09:00 PM
Nigel Parsons 19 Jun 18 - 03:31 AM
DMcG 18 Jun 18 - 01:20 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jun 18 - 01:18 PM
Backwoodsman 18 Jun 18 - 11:27 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Jun 18 - 10:24 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jun 18 - 09:50 AM
DMcG 18 Jun 18 - 07:29 AM
DMcG 18 Jun 18 - 07:26 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Jun 18 - 07:20 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 18 - 06:33 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Jun 18 - 06:22 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Jun 18 - 06:02 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 18 - 05:56 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Jun 18 - 05:33 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 09:44 PM

For once, correct. The referendum was not an election. It was a referendum on whether or not to leave the European Union. The nation got the RIGHT answer. Get over it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 06:46 PM

The referendum was not an election. This confusion that routinely arises during discussions of the two processes' outcomes is unhelpful and is based on a false premise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 04:16 PM

More substantial will of the people than ever expressed in any vote in British history for anything.
Your reasoning would invalidate every election ever held!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 04:08 PM

With just a 37% vote (across the electorate) for Brexit there is no way anyone can claim it has a majority, or is the 'will of the people'. 52% of voters wanted to leave, but over 16m voters didn't. May cannot keep saying it is a substantial will of the people of the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 04:04 PM

Not a unicorn?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 01:06 PM

- and it really was a kitten after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 12:53 PM

DMcG,
I seem to remember that there were a lot of leavers before the vote saying that German car manufacturers would all be pressuring the EU to fit in with whatever Britain wanted.

Odd, that. Must have dreamt it.



You did. We might have said that German car manufacturers want a free trade deal, and they do.
They no doubt are pressuring the EU to agree one, as we said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 03:07 PM

"So Boris Johnson has urged the prime minister to deliver a “full British Brexit”."

HE PROBABLY MEANT "FULL BREAKFAST"

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 02:27 PM

So Boris Johnson has urged the prime minister to deliver a “full British Brexit”.

I wish he would elaborate what he means. A “full British Brexit even if that should end up splitting the UK”-kind of Brexit, which neither Keith nor Nigel want, but would accept if it came to it?

A “full British Brexit even if it turns out Airbus are not bluffing and we do lose tens of thousands of jobs and £1.7billion in tax revenues”-kind of Brexit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 01:17 PM

ANOTHER FINE MESS STANLEY

DID YOU SEE THE SIZE OF THAT DEMO?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:24 PM

I seem to remember that there were a lot of leavers before the vote saying that German car manufacturers would all be pressuring the EU to fit in with whatever Britain wanted.

Odd, that. Must have dreamt it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:23 PM

"Weer taking are cuntry back", Raggy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:20 PM

So now BMW along with Airbus are seeking some clear information about post Brexit in the UK.

There is a distinct possibilty that both companies could move their operations elsewhere with the possible loss of 22,000 jobs.

Is this the rosy future that Brexiteers promised us?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:38 AM

The latest statements from Airbus seem to be somewhat similar to my stance: They have obligations to their shareholders and other 'stakeholders'. That's it. They have no interest in the UK, or pro-Brexit or anti-Brexit except in so far as it affects the shareholders. Obviously, the less change, the lower their costs of adapting, so their most likely stance would be 'stay as we are', but their main obligation at the moment is to convince their shareholders that they are ready and prepared for all eventualities. Which they are doing. Moreover, while it might suit the government to play brinkmanship all the way to March 2019 with the deal-or-no-deal undecided - and if we 'no-deal' that means no transition - that does not suit companies that have to live with the consequences. So they may well begin the transitions based on what is said in October. Meanwhile, "EU is getting ready for no-deal, says Jean-Claude Juncker".

And the only answer to this, from the Brexit supporters I have read on line are things like "it's all a bluff", "Someone else will take over", "Doesn't matter: people will find jobs elsewhere"

Depressing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:31 AM

"If remaining in the EU was certain to lead to the break up of UK, either into its constituent countries, or by EU recommended regionalisation, would you favour Brexit to protect the integrity of the UK?"

Fair enough, I'll have a go. I don't think it quite comparable, though, because we have been in the EU for a long time and the country has not broken up, whereas the status of NI in particular is a huge problem for Brexit.

When it comes down to it, in extremis, I have NO loyalty to speak of to the UK. I would not call myself patriotic. I haven't checked but I imagine 'patriotic' is derived from 'pater' and I recognise no abstract father that is the country. So I would stay in Europe.

Feel free to skip all the following, because the essential point is above, but this is to elaborate it.

I have little or no affinity to "King and Country". Growing up in Middlesbrough, my identity was 'Yorkshire' and that was far more relevant than anything else. In 1968 we were moved by political whim out of Yorkshire into Teesside with the full understanding that in a few years time - 1974 as it turned out - we would be moved again, this time into Cleveland. Now it would be absurd to suggest that was in any way formative, but it did make me more aware of the arbitrariness of regional labels. There is plenty about the UK I like a great deal, including a tolerance for others that, for its many shortcomings, is still better than many other countries. Through simply living in it I am adapted to the UK to such an extent that living anywhere else would be difficult. But, "in extremis", there are many other parts of the world I could move to with little regret. That includes virtually everywhere in Europe but also a good many other places.

So I have little allegiance to my nation state. What I do see is that issues - for the sake of generic term - need to be addressed at an appropriate level. If you are bothered by litter, you need to be hassling the local council, not the national government or the EU. Climate change, on the other hand, needs to be addressed at a level higher than even groups of states like the EU. I also see that over the last hundred years or so multinationals have outstripped the control of individual governments. All this stuff about the big companies avoiding tax and so on is real and it arises because it is beyond the control of any individual country. When a country says it cannot tax a business because they would move elsewhere, it is acknowledging its lack of sovereignty over that company.   The control of such companies is arguably growing beyond the control of groups of countries like the EU, but it is well beyond any individual one. All the cries of 'sovereignty' miss the fact that so much of our life is decided by multinational companies. The EU is one multinational deciding things: it is one out of dozens - and just about the only one we have direct influence over.

In that context there are issues that need to be addressed at the local level, others at the national, others at the international and others at the global level. My support for my nation state is really that it just another level at which it is suitable to address some issues. I have no loyalty to a country: I have a desire that problems are solved and the country is an appropriate level for some of them.

So getting back to the question more directly: Losing the UK as a group would be losing one such level, and I would oppose it. But not at the cost of losing levels I regard as more important.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:10 AM

So the hypothetical question causes you no problems.
While on hypotheticals, what if the question was:
"If remaining in the EU was certain to lead to the break up of UK, either into its constituent countries, or by EU recommended regionalisation, would you favour Brexit to protect the integrity of the UK?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:16 PM

Well, of course, I would rather scrap Brexit. So obviously I would want to preserve the UK.

I don't think any deeper analysis is required.

Similarly, on the understanding Brexit is going ahead, I want the form that most keeps the UK united.

Having done that if the individual countries want to go their own way, that is their decision.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:11 PM

Sorry, I copied the question from the wrong source. The question I was answering was:

“If it were not possible to do both, which of the following would you choose to do? A) Leave the European Union or B) Keep England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales together in the United Kingdom?”


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:09 PM

Given the hypothetical question: "Given the choice between leaving the EU and breaking up Britain, which is more important."
I would not be able to give a 100% answer without numerous caveats.

Leaving the EU is very important, and if we don't do it now, the only opportunity we've had since 1973, it may be a very long time before we get the opportunity again.
Keeping the UK together is also very important, if it wants to be kept together. Even without Brexit the Scots have had a referendum on separation, and the rest of the UK had no say in that referendum. That could happen again. It would be a shame if Brexit failed just because we wanted to retain Scotland, and the Scotland decided to leave at a later date.

Similarly with Northern Ireland. I would want to keep them as part of the UK, if that is also the wish of the majority of those who live there. If Jim Carroll is right in his claim that the majority of those in the North now favour a united Ireland it would again be a shame to lose Brexit when we may lose Northern Ireland anyway.

I don't honestly believe that Brexit will force a break up of the UK, although it may facilitate it if parts are already wishing to leave.
So, as it seems to be a one-off opportunity, my feeling would be for continuing with Brexit.

As the Spectator article says it is a hypothetical question. Being in favour of Brexit doesn't mean being in favour of the break-up of UK.

Would anyone else care to respond with their honest view of the question?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:09 PM

I do accept, by the way, that i didnt report the question properly. Apologies, my mistake.

So let's stick to the question in the poll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:54 PM

We need not argue semantics Nigel. You know Ashborne's question. How would you answer it?   Keith was quite able to do so, and since you have read the question your answer is already in your head, isn't it? It is really whether you can bring yourself to say so rather try to dodge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:52 PM

Raggy,
Hardly semantics. The question as 'quoted' by DMcG was totally different to the hypothetical question discussed by The Spectator.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:33 PM

Oh dear Nigel.

Once again you are arguing semantics rather than addressing the actual issue.

Par for the course I'm afraid.

Oops ......... no I'm not actually afraid, but it is par for the course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:27 PM

There was been an interesting article in The Spectator saying that asked as a hypothetical question, given the choice between leaving the EU and breaking up Britain, which is more important. It turned out most would break up Britain. And that has been argued for on this very thread, when it was claimed most leavers would be quite happy to see Northern Ireland out of the U.K.

I believe The Spectator is a little more intelligent than to pose that question. The question was:
“If it were not possible to do both, which of the following would you choose to do? A) Leave the European Union or B) Keep England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales together in the United Kingdom?”

The choice was between leaving the EU and saving the UK, not between Leaving the EU and breaking up the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 02:31 PM

So Brexit means WEexit? It would not surprise me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 02:03 PM

the way that things are going in westminster (and trumpton) it looks ever more likely that the scots will be leaving the english to their shitty, narrow -minded and depressing brexit. good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 12:50 PM

I don't remember that being said, Nigel, but if it was, it was clearly an error. Until we leave, it is an EU matter.   What happens after we leave is quite a different thing.

There was been an interesting article in The Spectator saying that asked as a hypothetical question, given the choice between leaving the EU and breaking up Britain, which is more important. It turned out most would break up Britain. And that has been argued for on this very thread, when it was claimed most leavers would be quite happy to see Northern Ireland out of the U.K.

It would be interesting to see what other the Leavers here think : Is preserving the UK more important than Brexit? It is admittedly, hypothetical at the moment, but may not remain so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 09:48 AM

EU response to US trade Tariffs

When someone first pointed out the new US tariffs, and blamed them on Theresa may I made the point that we wouldn't be able to deal with them, it would have to be a EU matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:55 AM

I have always excused the house of lords on the basis of regarding them as on a par with jurors. It does not matter who they are, their educational background, or perceived standing in society. Their function is to nitpick over detail and presented facts, and unlike a jury they can throw back legislation for an improved draft to be presented.
It is the function that is crucial, not the form.

I cannot see a way of creating a second chamber that would be more egalitarian. There is a sufficiency of failed career politicians in the second chamber already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 09:27 AM

I don't defend the manner in which the House of Lords is constituted, but as a point of information hereditary peers account for just 90 out of nearly 800 "lords."


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 08:50 AM

“From the hills and forests of darkest Britain they came : the halt, the lame, the deaf, the obscure, the senile and the forgotten —the hereditary peers of England united in their determination to use their medieval powers to retain a medieval institution.”

Wonderful! Let us have our rotten boroughs back as well!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 06:42 AM

Just as well there is nothing of significance going on today's Parliament that could affect the ability of the U.K. to negotiate (if you take one view), or clarify the constitution on the relationship between Parliament and Governement if you take the other)

So we can put all our effort into arguing whose 'beam-in-their-own-eye' is biggest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 06:40 AM

The piece dealt in facts only. Juxtapositions having hidden subversive relevance are all in your mind. You should take the Guardian more often, Nigel. Comment is free but facts are sacred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 06:21 AM

Steve.
I still see a definite slant (attempt to mislead by what is said, and what is left unsaid)
Perhaps it is your own preconceptions which prevent you from seeing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 03:52 AM

" Expect everyone who isn't in a coma to be wheeled into the House."
Like the beautiful ‘New Statesman’ description of the House of Lords' scuppering of the ‘Capital Punishment Abolition’ Bill in 1956”
“From the hills and forests of darkest Britain they came : the halt, the lame, the deaf, the obscure, the senile and the forgotten —the hereditary peers of England united in their determination to use their medieval powers to retain a medieval institution.”
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 09:00 PM

There is no slant, Nigel, and certainly no attempt to mislead. I suggest that you're looking at the piece through your usual Daily Mail eyes. If you look at straight factual intormation from a slanted position, you may fail to discern that it's you that's slanted and not the source you're criticising.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 03:31 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 01:18 PM
Not clear how giving unadorned factual information is giving a slant...


By appearing to correlate one piece of factual information with a second to which it bears no immediate correlation, as shown in the final line of my comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 01:20 PM

As expected, the Lords has just approved a version of Dominic Grieve's amendment so that in the event of no deal, Parliament decides the next step rather than the Government. This will be debated on Wednesday and this time the rebels are not going to be willing to back down with a promise to change the bill to meet their plans " so don't vote against us, please."

Wednesday should be lively. Expect everyone who isn't in a coma to be wheeled into the House.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 01:18 PM

Not clear how giving unadorned factual information is giving a slant...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 11:27 AM

The Office for Budgetary Responsibility and the Institute for Fiscal Studies don't believe there will be a Brexit Dividend either.

But, of course, the BrexShit Bumpkins are fed up with experts who actually understand these things, and prefer to believe slogans on buses, and the bullshit of proven liars like Bozo, Haddock-Face, The Little Scottish Viper, and Maggie-May.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2018/06/there-no-brexit-dividend-spend-nhs


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 10:24 AM

I'm guessing that this Guardian is the article Steve means.

The Guardian appears to be adding its usual slant:

What about after the transition period?

The OBR said the UK’s £5bn rebate has already been “spent” ?on domestic priorities and cannot be spent again. The Institute for Fiscal Studies said in its assessment that the remaining £14bn could theoretically be redirected, but the government has already pledged to replace at least some EU spending (for example, farming subsidies) for some years, leaving an £8bn surplus. However, a reduction in GDP of just 1% translates to a fall in tax revenue of more than £8bn.


How much has GDP growth fallen?

The Bank of England said the trend rate of growth for the UK has fallen from around 2.5% to 1.5%, which matches the fall needed to wipe out the Brexit dividend. BoE governor Mark Carney said household incomes after adjusting for inflation were £900 lower than expected before the referendum vote.


The first large paragraph details the effect of a reduction in GDP. The second paragraph equates this with a reduction in the rate of growth of GDP. A 'reduced rise', is still a rise, it is not (except by very strange logic) a fall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 09:50 AM

There's no brexit dividend. See today's Guardian, among many others. Google "May's NHS 'Brexit dividend' claim draws scepticism and doubt" and scroll down to "quick guide."


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 07:29 AM

Ah, always 'refresh' before posting :(


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 07:26 AM

I don't know if that's an original from you Nigel, but it is an excellent quip. I have already passed it on!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 07:20 AM

Thanks, Jim. Not really mine, but I can't remember where I nicked it from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 06:33 AM

"I spent half my time putting away childish things"
I think I prefer yours now
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 06:22 AM

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. "

When I became a father I found I spent half my time putting away childish things ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 06:02 AM

BBC News just now - the cabinet have been called to 10 Downing Street this morning for an unscheduled meeting, in which they have been informed that taxes must go up.

Brexit Premium anybody?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 05:56 AM

Wot Baccie just said
Sorry if I misunderstood you Nigel - I assumed you were part of Iain's 'leftie" old usual
If not, I was mistaken
I'm not of any faith but I am rather fond of some biblical quotes

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. "

About time we all adhered to that one
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 05:33 AM

"And how can you presume to know my political stance?"

There's plenty of evidence, on this forum, in your utterances under your current nom de plume, and under your previous one.

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.


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