BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 03:03 AM

So you think the consumers, and businesses that depend upon the EU for their supply chains should pay the price of gratifying a handful of rabid tories. The question posed in the referendum did not explicitly seek consent to leave the customs union.

The ballot paper did not provide consent to leave the EEA.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 12:59 PM

It would need someone with a deeper legal background than me to explain the Parliament Acts in detail, but my understanding that whereas previously the Lords could veto certain bills, they can now delay them for up to three sessions.

In the context of a time-limited Brexit negotiation, that delay could have the same effect as a veto, I think. As I say, it really someone with much deeper knowledge of the law than I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 11:55 AM

"For myself I think they serve a useful function, but must never be allowed to circumvent the will of the Commons."

2The Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949 are two Acts of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, which form part of the constitution of the United Kingdom. Section 2(2) of the Parliament Act 1949 provides that the two Acts are to be construed as one.

The Parliament Act 1911 asserted the supremacy of the House of Commons by limiting the legislation-blocking powers of the House of Lords (the suspensory veto). Provided the provisions of the Act are met, legislation can be passed without the approval of the House of Lords.
The Parliament Acts have been used to pass legislation against the wishes of the House of Lords on seven occasions since 1911, including the passing of the Parliament Act 1949. Some constitutional lawyers had questioned the validity of the 1949 Act. These doubts were rejected in 2005 when members of the Countryside Alliance unsuccessfully challenged the validity of the Hunting Act 2004, which had been passed under the auspices of the Act. In October 2005, the Appellate Committee of the House of Lords dismissed the Alliance's appeal against this decision, with an unusually large panel of nine Law Lords (out of then-existing twelve) holding that the 1949 Act was a valid Act of Parliament."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 10:54 AM

Lord Kerr's summing up before the division was extremely witty and one section related to Keith's last post:

"I ought to pay tribute to my past—my various masters from the past—who are marking my homework so harshly. I owe the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, an apology. I am sure that he explained to the country at large the truth about the customs union and that he did it every day, morning, noon and night, but I am not sure that the country was listening. What I remember is the man who is now the Foreign Secretary telling the country, “Nobody is even talking about leaving the single market”. He published that the day after the referendum, having said it throughout the referendum campaign. So I exonerate the noble Lord—I have to; he was my boss.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 10:42 AM

The matter of a customs union was never put to the people.

Yes it was. Both sides clearly stated that Leave meant leaving the Customs Union.

I wonder where your insistence that elected MPs should decide will be if this (non binding) vote does support a customs union.

I do not think they should subvert the decision of the referendum either, but if they do they may be punished by their constituents. The Lords face no such threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 10:24 AM

So May is going to waste taxpayers money to pay leeches in the civil service to set up a new customs unions which will be identical to the current customs union to ensure that there is no impact on consumers whatsoever and the same for businesses that trading with the EU one second after we leave the customs union
Whoever told you that?
Or is it just your own perverse understanding of what is happening?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 10:04 AM

So May is going to waste taxpayers money to pay leeches in the civil service to set up a new customs unions which will be identical to the current customs union to ensure that there is no impact on consumers whatsoever and the same for businesses that trading with the EU one second after we leave the customs union???????????? Who are the imbeciles who voted for this government????? How are we going to force the EU to obey .... Trident????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 09:35 AM

On the other hand we are categorically leaving the customs union.

Who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 09:00 AM

The matter of a customs union was never put to the people. It's perfectly possible to be out of the EU yet be in a customs union with the EU. The amendment was about keeping the concept of a customs union on the table,

The concept of a customs union does appear to still be on the table.
Theresa May has pledged to leave the current customs union after Brexit.

The second quote is taken from DMcG's link (to the BBC)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 08:49 AM

Senior MPs to force a vote on customs union

I wonder where your insistence that elected MPs should decide will be if this (non binding) vote does support a customs union.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 08:49 AM

The matter of a customs union was never put to the people. It's perfectly possible to be out of the EU yet be in a customs union with the EU. The amendment was about keeping the concept of a customs union on the table, not reversing the referendum result. I suppose the Mail would love to be calling the Lords the enemies of the people. Trouble is, neither the Mail nor the other grumblers about the Lords amendment have asked the people either. What is happening is just normal procedure and no-one is subverting anything. That's my view and I won't enter into silliness with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 08:35 AM

Yes it is or it could not do it.
The argument is that they are trying to subvert the will of the people and the Commons by this move.

This contentious issue should be left to elected politicians who are directly answerable to the people, unlike their Lordships and Ladyships.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 08:11 AM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 07:49 AM

I was signatory eight hundred and something of Charter88, which included reform of the House of Lords amongst its objectives, so I have questioned the structure since at least 1988 as a matter of record. Of course saying you want to change something and agreeing what you want to change it to are very different things (as everyone on this thread should appreciate!)

Nevertheless what it is doing now is precisely in line with its remit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 07:35 AM

I agree with all the arguments that have been put forward for putting the question to the country once the implications of any deal are known - except that I don't think that referendums are ever a good idea anyway. The country is - as it should be - ruled by parliament and the Lords get to have a say but can't ultimately scupper the will of the Commons. I like that notion in principle but there are too many peers, too many old peers, not enough women in the Lords and I think that all peers should be appointed to reflect what this country would regard as accomplishment at the highest level in all walks of life and should reflect the whole political spectrum. Definitely NOT elected. One election for one house every few years is enough for the country. An election for the Lords would attract a low turnout and that would be self-defeating as far as any democratic apiration for an elected Lords was concerned.

One thing's for sure: the notion suggested here that it's only the remainers in parliament who form a "ruling elite" of some kind who act only in their own interests is utterly cockeyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 07:29 AM

Isn't it strange how with some people, the democracy of the Lords is only questioned when they take the "wrong" decision ?

I have not come across such a person.
For myself I think they serve a useful function, but must never be allowed to circumvent the will of the Commons.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 06:14 AM

"allowed to over-rule t"
Isn't it strange how with some people, the democracy of the Lords is only questioned when they take the "wrong" decision ?
Great decision
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 05:33 AM


The in-elected Lords have never been allowed to over-rule the elected Commons

Depends how you think of it. The Lords is a revising chamber and it is absolutely the norm and their role to suggest changes to bills. If the commons accept the change then it is little more than linguistic juggling whether the change is over ruling the commons original proposal and the commons is conceding or the commons is always the House that agrees the final form of the bill.

Which will be exactly the same this tim3 however it ends up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 05:09 AM

BUT IT WAS STILL NEWS!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 04:43 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:39 AM

BUT IT WAS STILL NEWS!!!

It was not the news that you claimed it to be: Whether you chose to believe the think tank is irrelevant. The news is that was their findings

Whether it was news at all is also debatable. The 'think tank' may merely have requested a report from a professor who they believed would back up their own pre-conceptions.
That may just be my assumption, but it was certainly NOT the think tank's findings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:51 AM

DMcG, there is a majority for Remain in both Commons and Lords.
They are the ruling elite who put their own interests above those of the people they supposedly represent.

The difference is that MPs need to be re elected but the Lords never have to answer to the people.

The in-elected Lords have never been allowed to over-rule the elected Commons.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:39 AM

BUT IT WAS STILL NEWS!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:31 AM

Nigel, you asked if it was news. It was. The news was that a think tank considered that every scenario would leave Britain worse off. Whether you chose to believe the think tank is irrelevant. The news is that was their findings

From the link you posted, the think tank considered nothing. They merely reported the thoughts of a lone professor. Passing the thoughts of that professor through a think tank, and then through a newspaper, does not mean there is any reason to give those thoughts any more credence than when they were the thoughts of a single professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 05:23 PM

Nigel, you asked if it was news. It was. The news was that a think tank considered that every scenario would leave Britain worse off. Whether you chose to believe the think tank is irrelevant. The news is that was their findings.

Your opinion that it will all turn out for the best did not make the news and is at odds with the think tank.

It was you who was trying to school someone in differentiating between news and opinion. I was merely clarifying that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 04:59 PM

I didn't know you needed spoon feeding, Nigel. It is real news in a real newspaper. Just look at my posting a little earlier for the linK.

Yes, that was what I was commenting on. The opinion of one man, (Jonathan Portes) commissioned by a 'thinktank' (Global Future) and published in The Guardian on its News pages as if it has been a considered production by 'Global Future'. At least, that is how I would read the headline they gave it:

Each Brexit scenario will leave Britain worse off, study finds
Global Future finds Theresa May’s preferred bespoke deal would cost £615m a week

Compare that with the paragraphs describing exactly what they are basing their headlines on:
Each of the government’s four Brexit scenarios, including a bespoke deal, would leave Britain poorer and cost the taxpayer hundreds of millions of pounds each week, analysis has shown.
The study for the thinktank Global Future by Jonathan Portes, a professor of economics and public policy at King’s College, London, found that a bespoke deal, the government’s preferred option, would have a net negative fiscal impact of about £40bn a year.

It appears that 'Project Fear' has not yet given up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 03:39 PM

I know I shouldn't ask, but WTF?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 03:36 PM

Remember what might have happened when Guy Fawkes and his motley crew got hacked off. After all, according to recent reports, if you use a crossbow Mr Plod stays at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 02:56 PM

The Lords are an integral part of Parliament. Vote for supremacy of Parliament over Brussels and that's what you get: all of Parliament not just the bits you like.

By and large, reform of the House of Lords is something "the left" argue for, and "the right" argue against. I am fairly confident most Rees Mogg pronouncements on the Lords will be in support of it as is, unless his recent idea to neuter it by making 200 new Lords to force his personal view of Brexit through.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 02:27 PM

The Lords are unelected. Unelected appears opposing the people.
The Lib Dems, the only pro Remain party, were wiped out in the election but use their many peers to exert influence they have no mandate for.

BBC, "And Lord Forsyth went further, suggesting that it was a plot by "Remainers in this House, who are the majority, who refuse to accept the verdict of the British people - and I believe they are playing with fire".
"I say to colleagues in this House, 'Have a care to what we are doing,'" he said. "We are an unelected house, and this amendment [is] part of a campaign which is putting peers against the people." "

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 02:16 PM

news based on reliable science

What aspects of 'science' are you seeking? Nigel? Repeatability? Comparison with a control group? Blind testing?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 02:06 PM

I didn't know you needed spoon feeding, Nigel. It is real news in a real newspaper. Just look at my posting a little earlier for the linK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 01:43 PM

Try again: Pound plummets

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 01:40 PM

Y'pays y'money and takes y'choice
Pound plummets

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 01:12 PM

But the pound is still off to the stratosphere!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 12:36 PM

From the BBC live reporting on Parliament:

=====
17:31
BREAKING Government defeated on continued EU-UK customs union
EU Withdrawal Bill

House of Lords

Parliament

Peers vote 348 to 225 to back an amendment in the name of crossbencher, Lord Kerr, with cross-party support - meaning a defeat for the government.

The amendment requires the government to report to Parliament by 31 October 2018 on the steps it has taken to negotiate continued participation in a UK-EU customs union before the European Communities Act 1972 can be repealed.

====

In truth, this seems to be something the government thinks it can live with via a simple technicality. It remains to see what will happen when it gets back to the commons.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 08:49 AM

We are just retaining control of our borders.After all we were never a part of the Schengen zone. And even inside that they have allowed so much uncontrolled immigration they have had to dismantle the schengen agreement in places to adequately monitor for terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 08:33 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 07:46 AM
Opinion = Oh, I think it will all turn out for the best when we leave.
News = Economic analysis reveals that all leave scenarios will leave Britain worse off.
That sort of thing, Nigel?

That sort of thing, yes. Make it clear what is news, and what is opinion.

If you can find something that gives your comment "Economic analysis reveals that all leave scenarios will leave Britain worse off" as news based on reliable science, let me know. Otherwise I'll just assume it's more 'Project Fear' and just the opinion of one man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 08:10 AM

The EU has just raised the 'Windrush' fiasco as a possible indication of how the citizens of European countries will be treated when (or hopefully "if") Britain leaves
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 07:46 AM

Opinion = Oh, I think it will all turn out for the best when we leave.

News = Economic analysis reveals that all leave scenarios will leave Britain worse off.

That sort of thing, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 07:26 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:12 AM
I know that many people who voted remain do not think we should have another referendum. However given that we all have much more information today than we did in June 2016 another vote may be the way forward. An article out today argues this point.
Brexit Bad News

You really need to distinguish between 'news' and 'opinion'.
The 'article' you link to was written by "Hugo Dixon, chairman and editor-in-chief of InFacts, a founding member of the People’s Vote campaign"
Even the Guardian heads it as "Brexit / opinion"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 06:33 AM

luvvin it!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5627745/Junker-row-pals-appointment-EU-position.html

How sad, but a grand day for democracy!


https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0417/955020-macron_eu_vision/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 06:22 AM

From: Raggytash -
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 07:43 PM
.
.
PS Nigel before you wade in and say the pound was overvalued prior to Brexit, currencies do NOT trade above their value for 2 years (or there abouts)

Another failure to understand either finance, or the English language.

The pound was 'overvalued'. That means the its 'value' was being incorrectly set. It was thus not trading 'above' its value.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 06:16 AM

More good news :-(

Each Brexit scenario will leave Britain worse off

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 04:10 AM

I think I might be more concerned about the antics of Deutsche Bank.
THE EUROPEAN Central Bank has moved first to protect global financial markets from the potential chaos caused by Deutsche Bank winding down the trading of $1.1 trillion assets on its balance sheet.

If you follow the pound euro exchange rate since it's inception it has been up and down like a whore's drawers. What has been - will be!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 04:10 AM

It was the Reuters economists who used the "s" word.
Take it up with them.

"LONDON (Reuters) - Sterling on Tuesday soared to its highest level since Britain’s vote to leave the European Union in June 2016, boosted by expectations that strong earnings data will seal the deal for a Bank of England interest rate hike and broad dollar weakness." "

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 07:43 PM

Question for you Iains, if you consider a 0.2% rise in the value of the pound to be "soaring" what do you consider a full 1.0% fall.

Would that be a catastrophe? Then if that is a catastrophe just how would you rate the drop of about 17 full cents just after the Brexit vote?

PS Nigel before you wade in and say the pound was overvalued prior to Brexit, currencies do NOT trade above their value for 2 years (or there abouts)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 03:36 PM

Dunno, Raggytash, I've just bought some euros today!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 03:31 PM

Yes Iains the pound has "soared" by nought point two percent!!!

Wow, open the champagne!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 03:09 PM

Pound is up, Brexit is coming. Life is good!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 01:44 PM

Jim, your claim about Farage was a lie.
Pointing that out does not make me a supporter of Farage, just an opponent of lying.

Good news on the economy today though.