BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 10:18 AM

I wonder how many remainiacs made a contribution to the link below, or of far greater significance, are even aware of it's existance?


https://ec.europa.eu/commission/consultation-future-europe_en

or this?


https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/reflection-paper-deepening-economic-and-monetary-union_en

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 10:05 AM

Dave,
wins trivial points points at the cost of a severe kicking

Try not to worry Dave. Your side has never managed to deliver any kind of kicking to anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 10:03 AM

DMcG,
It was a Whitehall proposal and reviewed in many papers.

No. It was supposedly in a document leaked to the FT, a notoriously pro-Remain paper. The other papers only quoted the FT.
It was just a scare story. NI is not dependent on the Republic for its electricity.

The "barges in the Irish Sea" bit should have rung alarm bells. NI has nothing but space.
Why would they do that rather than put them somewhere more convenient to link to the grid?
It was all bollocks. Just more project fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 08:20 AM

Nigel, you are rapidly becoming a Keith. Most people understand what is being said regardless of the choice of words. Most people understand that opinions are stated without others having to put 'in my opinion'. In case of ambiguity, the context of the comment and the posters history is often a good clue as to what was meant. You either understand what was meant and choose to pick holes in it just for the sake of argument or you do not understand what is being said, in which case you do not belong in a discussion such as this.

Do you really want to be the neighbour who wins trivial points points at the cost of a severe kicking or do you want to be the farmer who knows which fight to walk away from?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 06:26 AM

Mean while what is China up to, banning winnie the pooh, trying to introduce mass surveillance

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 06:10 AM

Let me tackle this 'believe all the scares' canard.   In any serious business project you develop a 'risk register', which is essentially what could go wrong, how serious such an event would be, how likely it is and what can be done to mitigate the risk.

That is sensible planning.

It is in complete contrast to the 'headless chicken, panicking over every scare story' approach. It is a sober investigation of possibilities and thinking through what could be done to stop them *becoming* a problem. And it includes very unlikely events if the possible effect is great enough.

=====

I agree, Nigel, that some leavers, and you are one, have accepted there will be a cost to the UK in the short term. Where we lack clarity is how big a cost and how long that will be for. When the 'break even' point is, if you like. Some remainers are not convinced there is a break even point at all.

The point I was making about the EU is that the social and political dimensions actually define why their negotiating stance is what it is. They don't just insist on the four freedoms because that is a convenient negotiating position: they form the whole rationale for the EU. So a comprise on them is exceedingly unlikely, and just talking about the impact on trade on the EU is too limited a view.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 06:03 AM

Oh, the irony...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:59 AM

How sad. You could try doing something useful with your life if mudcat bores you. You are under no obligation to stay. Some would not doubt welcome your departure.
At least the subject matter is vaguely on topic, not subjecting us to recipes, babbling about weeds and interminable posts on what wine you slug back with gay abandon.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:46 AM

Almost all our laws are solely our business, and the small minority of our laws that are involved with the EU have been overwhelmingly agreed to by the UK. We have the power of veto over any suggested major changes in EU law. If we leave and have to adopt the US as a far more important trading partner than it is now, we will have to relinquish far more control in terms of having standards imposed on us that we currently don't agree with. In addition, we will still have to trade with the EU as our biggest trading partner yet will have no say over any changes in regulations. So much for taking back control. As for sovereignty, it would be nice if Nigel would campaign for his own party to remember the supposed sovereignty of parliament instead of their constantly trying to sideline it. Yes, DMcG, the thread has become very tedious. It's very tedious to have to keep busting these brexiteer myths over and over again when faced with the cloth-eared denial merchants. Another reason it's tedious is because its overriding premise demands mucho speculation which is being constantly regurgitated. I'm getting a bit sick of reading about lorries and ferries and new Farages, for example...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:00 AM

From: DMcG -
No one overlooks any such thing, as far as I am aware. But once again, it looks like nothing apart from trade registers with the leave supporters. I have said all along the the EU position involves trade and social and polical considerations. The absurd comment has been made that only trade has been spoken about, not social and polical. Anyone who says that is blind to the fact that the Irish border, for example, is politically and socially important to the EU and has been a key factor from the start.

So yes, the Brexit deal will hurt the EU economically. But they might decide that is s still the least cost taking these other concerns into account. Their decision, not yours, mine, or the UK governments.

Strange, that seems to be exactly what the leave side have been saying all along.
There may be initial costs, but we are looking for the political benefits of becoming a sovereign nation in control of our own trade, borders and laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:44 AM

I am reminded of a poem

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:40 AM

"For example: one suggestion for overcome the electricity supply for Northern Ireland is to send thousand of generators. A real Dunkirk little ships idea, a great dramatic solution."

Ho Hum!!!!!!! more poorly researched comments

Perhaps, but not by me.   It was a Whitehall proposal and reviewed in many papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:31 AM

I suppose to be strictly accurate Irish natural gas production should be mentioned. However as maximising production with modern reservoir management techniques hastens the onset of depletion, the resultant contribution is largely a flash in the pan. Hence, below!

"Until 1994 all our gas requirements were met from the Kinsale gas fields. After a period of growing dependence on imported gas we can once again meet 58% to 60% of our gas requirements from the two sources of natural gas in Ireland; Kinsale (2-4%) and Corrib (56%). Without further discoveries we will be importing up to 90% of our gas needs by 2025."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:27 AM

Why then, dear Nigel, do you insist that the words used on here mean only what you understand them to mean? When I said that people put things differently and everyone understands what they mean, your partner in crime derided the idea. Yet here you are now championing the idea that words may change. Tsk, tsk. It couldn't be that there is one rule for you and one to everyone else could it?

Not at all. I acknowledge that words change, and that new words come into being, and gather acceptance. That is not the same as using words which can either accidentally, or by intent, be misleading as to the intended meaning of a post.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:19 AM

" Provisional data for 2017 show Northern Ireland import and export volumes were similar and also, again, overall export and import volumes are relatively low compared to total electricity consumption. In addition, unlike the previous three years, Northern Ireland exported more electricity to the Republic of Ireland than it received in imports in 2017"

https://www.economy-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/economy/energy-northern-ireland-2018.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:13 AM

I am reminded of an old joke. A farmer discovers one of his chickens has been laying eggs in an adjacent field so he knocks on his neighbour's door and asks if he can collect the eggs.

"No," says the neighbour, " they were laid on my land so they are my eggs. "

And so the dispute goes on until the farmer calls on the old village tradition of a kicking contest in which both men stand face to face, legs akimbo, and take turns at kicking each other in the balls until one can take no more. As the farmer first raised the issue, he takes first kick and lands a belter on the neighbours family jewels with his size 12 hobnail boots. The neighbour crumples and is left writhing on the floor in agony for about half an hour. Eventually he wobbles to his feet, dangley bits still throbing, and groans,

"My turn now."

" Nah," says the farmer, "you win. Keep the eggs."

I suppose we lost and have to get over it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:07 AM

Thanks Ians. NI also has an electricity interlink to Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 03:57 AM

"For example: one suggestion for overcome the electricity supply for Northern Ireland is to send thousand of generators. A real Dunkirk little ships idea, a great dramatic solution."

Ho Hum!!!!!!! more poorly researched comments!

Reality:
In 2014 about 45% of electricity was generated from natural gas, 96% of which was imported from Scotland. Most of that gas originated in the North Sea with Continental Europe and Liquified Natural Gas (LNG) imports to Britain making up the balance.
The coal-fired electricity generating station at Moneypoint(Co Clare) supplied 14.3% of the electricity needs using coal imported from Columbia .

About 32% of the electricity was generated from Irish sources in 2014. These were wind, peat, hydro and other renewable sources (biomass, biogas and wastes)

In the same year (2014) Ireland imported about 7.6% of electricity from Britain via the East-West interconnector.( The East–West Interconnector is a high-voltage direct current submarine and subsoil power cable which connects the Irish and British electricity markets.
Power rating?: ?500 MW)

Northern Ireland trades electricity with the Republic of Ireland to which it is a net exporter. (via the north south interconnector infrastructure)


so the above point made is ??????????????

The link below is several years old but I cannot find any recent data to radically change the picture.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/ireland-s-energy-crisis-1.2111299

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 03:55 AM

DMcG, you believe every scare story. Both sides of the border generate power but exchange it to smooth out supply. Both sides would be stupid to change that arrangement, but if the EU was that stupid NI would only struggle with peak demand occasionally. Why do you suggest any problem with fuel? Now you are making up scares.

Anyone who says that is blind to the fact that the Irish border, for example, is politically and socially important to the EU and has been a key factor from the start.

You seem to be blind to some facts. Britain will not impose border infrastructure. We can manage without it. The Republic would be stupid to let EU force them to do it. It will not happen whatever they say.
The main road crossing is all that could be controlled anyway. The other 200 crossings along the 300 mile border could never be. It is all just scare tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:07 AM

A tedious thread? I wouldn't disagree. Brexit was and is a topic sold with great sweeping hand gestures, sunny uplands and a when-I'm-gone-all-this-will-be-yours spirit. But the reality is all in the messy detail, which tends to be tedious.

For example: one suggestion for overcome the electricity supply for Northern Ireland is to send thousand of generators. A real Dunkirk little ships idea, a great dramatic solution.

But then you add in the reality. How much fuel do these need a day to power all of Northern Ireland? Where is that fuel coming from? How do we set up the distribution network to make sure the generators do not run out? Echoing a comment of Iains, where do we get all the tanker drivers, since the ones we have are busy doing their day job? And what will all that cost? Tedious questions, all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 06:34 PM

"When it comes go.." Bugger. Sometimes, like the bloke with the severely bent willy, I don't know whether I'm coming or going...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 06:31 PM

Dear Nigel with his linguistic difficulties makes for a welcome diversion in this otherwise tedious thread, Dave (though I do try my best to contribute to the substantive, tha knows). He is tediously stiff in his manner and is way too concerned with minutiae, when most of us can relax into our semi-informal posting mode (though we have to be careful as there's always a keefie about). The trouble with the Nigels of this world is that they set themselves up all too easily for nastily-hawkish people like me to gleefully attack them, as soon as they attack us, as they constantly make errors, probably by trying too hard. It's like playing a tune or singing a song: if you worry over-much about making a mistake, you'll make a mistake, sure as eggs is eggs. I could easily go over my own posts here and find hundreds of errors, but I won't, and in any case I care not a jot. Bring it on, Nigel. But you can't win, so maybe I'm giving you bad advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 06:14 PM

When it comes go who hurts who, you brexit Empire boneheads, it would pay you to remember two things. Numero uno, there are eight times as many of them as there are of us. That means, boneheads, that they can absorb a damn sight more disadvantage than we can. It's transparently obvious that they don't want us to leave. But they have far more ability to cushion the losses than the little ol' UK. Second, they have the economy of scale when it comes to international trade that we will not have once we leave and become a weak little isolated nation that doesn't really make stuff (and wot we make is too uncompetitive to sell anyway). Plus, boneheads, they have all their trading deals in place, whereas little old us have got to start from scratch. No probs, then, eh, brexit boneheads? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 04:39 PM

No one overlooks any such thing, as far as I am aware. But once again, it looks like nothing apart from trade registers with the leave supporters. I have said all along the the EU position involves trade and social and polical considerations. The absurd comment has been made that only trade has been spoken about, not social and polical. Anyone who says that is blind to the fact that the Irish border, for example, is politically and socially important to the EU and has been a key factor from the start.

So yes, the Brexit deal will hurt the EU economically. But they might decide that is s still the least cost taking these other concerns into account. Their decision, not yours, mine, or the UK governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 04:35 PM

The English language is still a living language (it changes and grows),

Why then, dear Nigel, do you insist that the words used on here mean only what you understand them to mean? When I said that people put things differently and everyone understands what they mean, your partner in crime derided the idea. Yet here you are now championing the idea that words may change. Tsk, tsk. It couldn't be that there is one rule for you and one to everyone else could it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 03:43 PM

"Iains the EU will gear up for this) the new ferries may well be of benefit to Ireland."
They may well be, if the EU continues to be bone headed, However, as has been clearly demonstrated, should those ferries be of benefit there will be a considerable additional cost to Ireland. They had also better get their skates on. Ships do not fall of trees, especially specialised ro ro ones. Remember 50% of irish supermarket products come from the UK.

Remainiacs are so busy listening to scare stories they overlook the fact that stalling talks hits both ways.

a scare at bedtime

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 02:56 PM

I'm not talking about ignoring it, old chap. I'm talking about reviewing it and reversing it in the light of the two disastrous years since the referendum. In the light of adverse experience. In the light of what we know now that we didn't know then (though we should have), about unintended consequences apropos of that border, for example.   About acting in what would plainly be the interests of the country instead of being bone-headed about the mythical "will of the people" ("people" meaning 38% of em). We could instead, of course, always go to hell in a handcart made of misplaced principles...

Then, Nigel, the name of the song should have been "Alternative Title."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 02:49 PM

It is a dangerous path to be going down, to ignore the wishes of the people. Chickens always come home to roost.


https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/03/08/the-rise-of-european-populism-and-the-collapse-of-the-center-left/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 02:43 PM

The cost of driving an artic from Holyhead to Hull the nearest port for onward traffic to the EU is approx 150 pounds (sterling) the cost on the return journey will be the same. So unless the ferry companies charge more than 300 pounds (sterling) for a longer sea journey there will likely be little financial impact for the freighters.
And before anyone asks, the time differences will make not a great impact either. you still have to pay a driver whether he/she is driving or sitting on a ferry, this in conjuction with less wear and tear on the wagon, less time spent at a port of entry (Iains the EU will gear up for this) the new ferries may well be of benefit to Ireland.

Of course the time differences will have an impact. The longer the delivery takes the less deliveries can be made. The lorry can only be doing one journey at a time.
Also, if the new ferries are likely to be of benefit to Ireland then why has no one done this before?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 02:28 PM

The establishment is pro-EU.
The populist revolution seen in Europe and elsewhere is anti-establishment. That is why it is so dangerous to signal that the anti-establishment referendum result may be ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 02:17 PM

whereas it looks like you think it is only a risk if your preferred Brexit does not happen.

Nothing to do with my preference. The anger you spoke of relates to the referendum result not being fully acted upon.

Steve is right that in the past Britain has avoided this path

Apart from the referendum result, and apart from the success UKip started to gain before the other parties copied their promises, or pretended to. Even so they won 12.6% of the vote in the 2015 election.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 01:40 PM

Anyway, I blame The Monkees for "alternate."
Don't blame the Monkees. The record was re-titled for UK release by their record label (RCA).
Apparently the original title "Randy Scouse Git" was considered unsuitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 01:24 PM

Good heavens, a moment of agreement! Not that you said so when I posted this, but there you are


From: DMcG - PM
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:43 AM

As I said earlier, I don't see a revitalisation of UKIP out of this: I fear that a much darker party might be coming up, with a manifesto to weaken the judges, the House of Lords, and all checks on the government - which they would hope to be them. They will do so, not so much based on the EU, but by playing on the anger of all those who feel cheated in any way. And their support could be very evenly spread throughout every constituency.

The next election might be a very dangerous time. I very much hope I am wrong.



There is not total agreement, though: that would be too much to expect. I think that risk is there WHATEVER the result of the Brexit negotiations, whereas it looks like you think it is only a risk if your preferred Brexit does not happen.

Steve is right that in the past Britain has avoided this path. I hope he is also right that we continue to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 12:56 PM

UKIP won the last Euro elections, and promised a referendum if elected to power.
We will never know what would have happened if the other 3 parties had not suddenly offered a referendum too.

There is already a lot of anger about the "Brexit betrayal" and someone is bound to seize on it.

There is a tendency everywhere for electorates to turn against their ruling political elites who ignore them.
That is not scare mongering. Look at EU, USA and the referendum here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 12:50 PM

Another Farage may emerge, eh? Well the last one tried seven times and couldn't get elected. We really don't do Farage in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 12:18 PM

"You're a sick man, Iains. Back to blanking you."


I hope you mean it this time!
Happinness, Happiness

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 12:00 PM

I'm a fan of American English, especially of American spellings, many of which actually predate the British versions, and have said so many times on this forum. But there isn't a single good reason why "alternate" and "alternative" shouldn't retain their entirely distinct meanings. Allowing them to converge represents a degradation and a loss of nuance. On the whole, your usage of "alternate," which I believe was unconscious and unthinking, is regarded as capricious in this country. Technically, it isn't exactly incorrect as it's becoming more common in use, and it's wot people say wot's important. Of course, it's also possible that you did it deliberately in order to be perverse and contrary, but I doubt it. Anyway, I blame The Monkees for "alternate."

And I hate to tell you, but three out of four of my use of English books, which always distinguish between British and American usage, agree with me, not you, about this. The other one doesn't mention the matter at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 11:39 AM

From: Steve Shaw

"This American use of alternate is still regarded as incorrect by many people in Britain."

You said it, Nige. Remind me - which side of the pond do you live on?

I reside in Wales, and am quite capable of understanding English. "Still regarded as incorrect by many people in Britain." I suppose you are unable to read into that the fact that the usage is also regarded as correct by some of the people in Britain. The English language is still a living language (it changes and grows), and has a great number (I would say 'the majority' but that is another word which you have problems understanding) of which come from other languages. That some are now coming to us from American English should not come as a surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 11:07 AM

You're a sick man, Iains. Back to blanking you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 10:50 AM

Another Farage may emerge, eh? Well the last one tried seven times and couldn't get elected. We really don't do Farage in this country. I can confidently predict that "another Farage" would be a damn sight better option than that of our leaving the EU in any case. I'd also remind you that Farage had been around for decades - he didn't just crawl out of the woodwork just before the referendum. Dunno about you but I don't see any new Farage anywhere on the horizon. You're fearmongering. It's become abundantly clear that brexit would be a complete disaster and that your Tory lot can't extricate us from the mess. It's time that our politicos started to do what they know to be the right thing - quit acting in their party interests, start acting in the country's interests and abandon brexit. We'll get over it. Least of all the possible evils.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 10:31 AM

Steve,
we elect MPs to make difficult and complex decisions, paying them to do their homework and attend to armies of researchers.

So why do you on the Left not allow Labour MPs choose the leader?
And why did all the elected MPs vote for the referendum that caused all this?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 10:30 AM

"As has been tediously pointed out here many times, we elect MPs to make difficult and complex decisions, paying them to do their homework and attend to armies of researchers. It doesn't matter that the electorate don't always agree. The electorate may well not be qualified to decide"

No shaw as usual you are being your conceited self and voicing opinion as fact.

Mp's define their role thus:

The Role of an MP
MPs have responsibilities to three main groups: their constituents,   Parliament and their political party. One MP is elected to the House of Commons by each of the UK’s 600+ constituencies. MPs’ duties in
Parliament include participating in debates and voting on legislation and other matters. They may also be members of committees examining new laws or the work of government departments. Some have a role as a minister in government or a spokesperson in opposition. MPs can   help   their constituents   by advising on problems (particularly those that arise from the work of    government    departments),    representing the concerns of their constituents in Parliament and acting as a figurehead for the local area. MPs usually support their party by voting with its leadership in the House of Commons and acting as a representative for the party in their constituency.

There. That has corrected it for you, by quoting from the hoss's mouth.


I see you have added psychycobabble to the list of you innumerable unsavoury traits. Such as demeaning, belittling, taunting and provoking in your arrogant, pompous, boasting manner of posting to all that hold contrary views to yours.

Time you cleaned up your act old boy, it is getting somewhat tiresome.

and finally the electorate are qualified by satisfying the requirements for enfranchisement.Nowt to do with IQ or understanding.

Do   you not like the idea that a bunch of what you label as thickos can vote against your choice and thereby negate your vote? A somewhat hypocritical character deficiency do you not think, considering the PC persona you try to project elsewhere on this forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 09:41 AM

"My 'O' Level grade 3 maths wasn't much use then."

Obviously not!

As a totsl aside the threat to ban the UK from Irish airspace is a bit of a joke. From the Journal IE:

"When last year Russian bomber aircraft – one reportedly carrying an inert nuclear device – entered Irish controlled airspace with transponders switched off, these aircraft were intercepted by RAF fighter planes and shadowed as they probed our ‘air defences’ and reaction times.

With no primary radar to speak of and no Irish Air Corps aircraft capable of meaningfully intercepting or shadowing such intruders, our airspace is undefended and unmonitored.

The Russians have clearly identified Irish airspace as Europe’s weakest link in terms of surveillance and defence capability. Let’s hope terrorists, intent on hitting American, British, French and other European civil aviation targets have not reached the same conclusion.

Therefore we rely on Britain and the RAF to provide security in our skies. So far the deal sounds sensible, however unpalatable, given our lack of infrastructure and capability."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 09:27 AM

If the electorate feel they are not being listened to over this, another Farage or worse will emerge and they will vote for him just as they did to get a referendum in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 09:06 AM

"Majority" = 38%. My 'O' Level grade 3 maths wasn't much use then.

I suppose insecurity and some kind of mental condition can cause people to become gratuitously abusive towards someone making a perfectly civil post. Make an appointment with someone, Iains. You are unwell.

As has been tediously pointed out here many times, we elect MPs to make difficult and complex decisions, paying them to do their homework and attend to armies of researchers. It doesn't matter that the electorate don't always agree. The electorate may well not be qualified to decide. If you let the electorate decide we would certainly still be hanging and quite likely flogging people, or putting them in the stocks, and forcing young men to do national service "because it wasn't like this in my day" and sending black people and Pakistanis "back to where they came from." Let's have referendums on everything! Jesus or Barabbas!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 08:08 AM

I'm sure that the overwhelming mass of MPs on all sides agree with that.

Probably true and always was, but not true of the electorate.
If it happens, a single issue populist party will stand at the next election to complete Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 07:03 AM

" First, a completely pointless and ill-advised referendum."

Don't be even more ridiculous than usual. Why do you insist on phrasing your opinions as emanating from the right hand of God?

Just remember a majority voted to change the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 06:39 AM

There should be no excuse for not achieving a painless transition unless the plans contain undetected errors.

Interesting. So if the transition is painful, how do you propose to hold them to account? And do you mean if it is painful for the country generally, or is it limited to whether you are personally affected?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 06:11 AM

All along I've hoped that wise heads would get together so that brexit couldn't become an election issue and we could have an honest conversation about it. Labour is already in favour of at least some form of customs union and single market membership. I'm sure that the overwhelming mass of MPs on all sides agree with that. This country needs the Tories, just for once, to see that this would be far and away the best thing for the interests of the country, save for abandoning brexit altogether, and act on it. A bit of political unity is the only way to get us out of this morass. Of course, it won't happen. We've been hit by a double whammy to end all double whammies. First, a completely pointless and ill-advised referendum. Then a body of politicians who would rather play party games than honestly confront the apocalypse that's about to swallow us up. We need leadership informed by vision, but we haven't got it. A few months to go and minds have yet to be concentrated...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 05:58 AM

There would be a lot of severely hacked off tanker drivers if the army take over fuel deliveries. The fiasco of the army and green goddesses would soon nip that idea in the bud. I rather doubt too many army personnel hold a Class A Commercial Drivers License (CDL), with tanker and Hazmat endorsements.