BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 11:36 AM

If we must leave, then EU27 must keep tbe leave campaign's promise and give Turkey immediate unconditional membership. If they do not if I and others like me are not granted 100% of EU membership benefits they are as bad as fagarse.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 10:43 AM

None of the others seemed worth responding to.

There we have it. It is an inconvenient truth so not worth responding to. You said there were no lies told in the referendum campaign. I have just liked you to some and there are many more where that came from. There is no point in discussing anything with you so the only option left is a good bit of honest abuse.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 10:16 AM

Careful now, Dave, I have in-laws in Hertford...

Well she went into a bit of detail, she handed out the odd veiled threat, she repeatedly told the EU that what's in our interests is also in theirs, that she wants frictionless, tariff- free trade (wot she can't have because of that customs union hostage-to-fortune red line bollix), she wants regulatory alignment now but which she has the option to walk away from later (that's a laugh, is that), and she gave us nowt new about the Irish border, just a bit of waffle about automation or something. She told us a lot of what she wants but not how she's going to get it, most of which she won't. EU reaction is going to be interesting. She sounded like an automaton and at one point I thought she might be nodding off. And after 21 months of her not getting on with it she demanded that we get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 10:13 AM

Dave, the playground is where we all learned that abuse, and it is all I expect from a sad case like you.

I had already responded to the bus claim.
None of the others seemed worth responding to.
Which would you most like addressed?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 10:01 AM

No comment on the link I posted though.

And it isn't playground abuse, it's proper Lancashire abuse with a hint of Yorkshire. None of your namby pamby Hertford bollocks.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 09:55 AM

I seem to have inadvertently responded to an old post as if new.
Sorry.

Dave, I expect nothing better than playground abuse from you, you sad man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 09:49 AM

Here in the UK we're getting a little taste of life after we've left the EU following El Trumpo's decision to slap a 219% tariff on Bombardier, so jeopardising 4,000 jobs in the North of Ireland.

Not trump's decision, but an attempt by Boeing. US courts through it out, so not even an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 09:30 AM

The debate about lies and half truths has been done to death. Here is one for a start. There are plenty more but I am not jumping through any more of your hoops.

The demonstrably false claims of the EU referendum campaign

Now, Fuck off Keith.

I told you I would not be as polite.


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 09:01 AM

Too busy listening to TMs speech to respond to that in detail, Keith. I await your review of it when it ends in 30mins or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 08:57 AM

Dave,
It is compulsory to tell the truth during a trial.

Politicians' careers suffer when they are caught lying.
No actual lies have been exposed from that debate to my knowledge.
Are you aware of any?
(Not the bus statement please. We all now know how that has been justified, if not to everyone's satisfaction. Any others?)

DMcG
Actually there is, if a candidate breached the rules.

No-one breached any referendum rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 08:39 AM

I did try to undivert slightly at the end of my wine eulogy...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 08:22 AM

Open Britain's letter to Teresa May

If, as I hope but he has not promised, Iains writes up his thoughts later today about Teresa May's speech, the points raised in it might be useful.

If he or any other Brexit supporter does write up some comments, I hope they will indeed be their comments, not just a cut and paste or link to Guido, the daily mail or wherever.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 08:03 AM

I am only putting up with this diversion while waiting for the speech from She Who Must (snigger!) Be Obeyed.

Iains' link should be to here.

As to whether his is the highlight of the article is a matter of taste. You could as easily pick "The Government are determined that the industry's continuing contraction shall take place with the least possible hardship in mining communities" and it goes on to say how they will achieve that (TM take note.) It is not a sentiment you associate with the Thatcher years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:59 AM

A toon for shaw.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUpZXLXlLuM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:51 AM

Coal mining facts:
Employment figure for coal miners:
1920       1191k miners
1930       910k
1940       744k
1950       593k
1960       607k Con1957-1964 Labour 1964-1970
1970       290k
1980       237k
1990       49k
2000       11k
2010       6k
2016       1k

Note government white paper 1967.
.miningheritage.co.uk/fuel-for-the-future-50th-anniversary-of-the-white-paper-on-uk-fuel-policy/
Highlight. In the next few years(1967) the number of miners is expected to contract by 35000 per year

Bringing Natural Gas on stream, diminished energy prices and UK coal could not compete with imports.
1970    5million tonnes with uniform growth
2000    24million tonnes peaking at
2003    50million tonnes dropping to
2016    5million tonnes (The dash for green)


It is all about economics. (The same reason UK gas reservoirs are fast emptying)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:48 AM

The southern Italian reds are my favourites, Dave. Currently, apart from Morrison's Nero d'Avola (six quid unless I hit lucky) there's Peuceta Primitivo at Lidl (£4.99) and M&S Negroamaro, a little beauty, eight quid but I only buy it when it's 25% off six and I can get me daughter's staff discount. Also, Lidl sell a double-size bottle of Nero d'Avola for £7.99 that is brilliant for the money. The single-size bottles aren't as good. We've been to southern Italy and Sicily a good few times and for reds we always go for Nero d'Avola in Sicily and Negroamaro or Primitivo in Italy, especially in Puglia. I suppose brexit will put the prices up. We went through Avola on the bus the year before last. The ancient town was destroyed by an earthquake in 1693 and rebuilt close by to a regular geometric pattern. We were on our way to Noto which has fabulous architecture and the best gelateria in the world (the Caffe Sicilia). Great place, Europe, full of great people, great history and great culture. I've yet to speak to anybody there or in Andalucia, where we also go most years, who isn't totally pissed off that we're leaving. What stupidity has been visited on us. Lamentable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:34 AM

DMcG,
And don't forget there is a mechanism to appeal decisions if new evidence comes to light or the trial was otherwise faulty.

Not for an election.

Actually there is, if a candidate breached the rules. There's even some examples reported in the Daily Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:33 AM

It is compulsory to tell the truth during a trial. Not doing so is a criminal offense in its own right. If that had applied to the referendum half of Westminster would be doing time for perjury.

Steve and DMcG put it nicely about your stupid analogy. I will not be so polite.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:21 AM

Steve,
You've taken your silly metaphor way too far

It is not a metaphor.
Trials, elections and referendums all are adverarial debates judged by jury or electorate.

Dave,
They are given 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth'. They are advised by a learned judge on any points that may be unclear.
This did not happen with the referendum.

Wrong. In both cases the evidence is put forward by each side and the jury or electorate decide on the basis of that evidence.

DMcG,
And don't forget there is amechanism to appeal decisions if new evidence comes to light or the trial was otherwise faulty.

Not for an election.
In a trial there is a right of appeal to a higher court, but the electorate is the highest court for a referendum or election.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:13 AM

And Hershey's shitty chocolate!

Iains, can't you read? Do try to keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:01 AM

The Nero d'Avolo lasted until after 10 you will be glad to hear, Steve. Had some Stratford Blue cheese as well. Very pleasant. Saw some Shepherds Purse Harrogate Blue but it was a yellow cheese and after your bad experience, I left it where it was. Make the most of it while you can. Cheez Whiz and Budweiser after brexit ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:56 AM

"What you're missing, Nigel, is the very different reasons for those two sets of pit closures."

Care to enlighten us all shaw? More fiction?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:50 AM

Thanks, lads. You saved me the bother. I was trying to melt some of the sheet ice that is encasing the whole area so that I could at least get out of the back door! Still got an easterly gale and a minus temperature but it keeps raining and making more ice. I'm very popular with the local feathery dinosaur population owing to the increased distributing of my largesse this morning. Peanuts to me but life-saving for them! I blame brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:37 AM

"As has been pointed out many times here. 211 mines were closed under Harold Wilson in the years 1965-1970 (six years)."
And as has been poined out here and elsewhere hundreds of times it was Thatcher who totally destroyed the industry and smashed the communities that had built up around it
Wilson's rationalization is open to debate - Thatcher's spite against those who wouldn't fall into line is unforgivable
The industry was not in "terminal decline" it became unprofitable and needed a new approach to make it a public facility rasher than a source of profit
Thatcher was a self-declared fascist and her behaviour towards the miners (and British industry as a whole) is that philosophy writ large
She left Britain a country with no industrial feet to stand on, which is what makes Brexit the farce it is
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:24 AM

Sod all to do with brexit of course. Well done for distracting us once again

True enough. I look forward to Nigel, Keith and Iains detailed analysis for May's speech when it is given later today.   No need to mention anything about what 'we want': that is well understood. Just stick to her comments on how we actually get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:19 AM

Would you care to clarify that remark? Or is it just personal opinion, as opposed to the hard (and, for some, hard to accept) facts and figures that I quoted.


Hansard, Nigel, Hansard.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:15 AM

Sod all to do with brexit of course. Well done for distracting us once again.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:14 AM

From Wikipedia

In the 1950s and 1960s around a hundred North East coal mines were closed.[19] In March 1968, the last pit in the Black Country closed and pit closures were a regular occurrence in many other areas.[20] Beginning with wildcat action in 1969, the National Union of Mineworkers became increasingly militant, and was successful in gaining increased wages in their strikes in 1972 and 1974.[21] Closures were less common in the 1970s, and new investments were made in sites such as the Selby Coalfield. In early 1984, the Conservative government of Margaret Thatcher announced plans to close 20 coal pits which led to the year-long miners' strike which ended in March 1985. The strike was unsuccessful in stopping the closures and led to an end to the closed shop in British Coal, as the breakaway Union of Democratic Mineworkers was formed by miners who objected to the NUM's handling of the strike.[22] Numerous pit closures followed, and in August 1989 coal mining ended in the Kent coalfield.[23] Since 1981 production fell sharply from 128 to 17.8 million tonnes in 2009.

Prior to the strike there were 20 closures proposed. After the strike the industry was all but shut down entirely.

If that does not highlight the difference between economic and political closures to you then there is no point in anyone else trying to explain.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:54 AM

What you're missing, Nigel, is the very different reasons for those two sets of pit closures.
Would you care to clarify that remark? Or is it just personal opinion, as opposed to the hard (and, for some, hard to accept) facts and figures that I quoted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:45 AM

What you're missing, Nigel, is the very different reasons for those two sets of pit closures.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:42 AM

An Irish view of BoJo the clown and his nonsense about the Irish border.

Boris Johnson is a joke that isn’t funny anymore

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:41 AM

Lots of squawking! Any eggs boyos?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:36 AM

Jim Carroll:
Brexit was sold on the inhuman policy of stopping immigrants and refugees from our own oil wars from entering Britain - Powellism brought to fruition
A few more drowned children pulled from the sea is has to make people realise what an incredibly vicious decision that was - surely!
I don’t recall any oil wars with Europe, which is where Brexit will reduce immigration from. Perhaps you’d care to enlighten me.

One of Thatcher's ploys in closing down the mining industry was what the continued use of coal would do to the environment
As has been pointed out many times here. 211 mines were closed under Harold Wilson in the years 1965-1970 (six years). 154 were closed under Margaret Thatcher 1979-1990 (eleven years). When Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister the coal industry was already in terminal decline.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:25 AM

So the Express manages to dig up a European malcontent to big up the notion that some countries would like to break the trading rules that every EU member has signed up to as a condition of membership. You only have to read something like this...

She also warned that with the recent history of Soviet Union domination "The last thing Central Europeans wish for is being the guinea pigs of another foreign power’s experiment in creating a nationless superstate run by unelected bureaucrats."

...to realise that she's talking out of her arse. Unelected bureaucrats have never run anything in the EU and never will. And she appears to have forgotten that nation states have a veto over major changes that they don't want.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:53 AM

"What astounding ignorance!"
How is this
The people of Blackpool overwhelmingly don't want fracking - that seems to be general wherever it is proposed
The Council (for once) listened to what the people said and the Government overturned it - exactly the opposite of Brexit where "the people's will" (or a large enough minority of it) committed Britain to a suicidal policy - the Govenment's response - the people's will has to be adhered to"
Fracking is based on using fossil fuels - if you want to see the consequences of continuing to do so - look out of the window
One of Thatcher's ploys in closing down the mining industry was what the continued use of coal would do to the environment - yet now we have more ways of fouling pu the planet - fracking being just that - what happened to the people's will there?
What astounding ignorance is right
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:25 AM

Me
Is there a point in all this Iains?
Link after link in support of a policy and a party that is making a laughing stock of Britain now - all from supporters of that party and all saying exactly nothing - in May's cas, "give us time and we'll have to get it right in the end"
Stop patronising us - we can see what's happening - we only have to watch the in fighting of Johnson, Rees Mog, May... et al, while they are now fighting for the rights Britain can only have if they remain in the E.U. - why leave if that's all Britain is going too get at the end of all this?
While Britain has no industries we are never going to be able to "stand on our own two feet" so it will be a case of who we are going to depend in in the future - Trump's unstable America, China, extremist Russia....?
In whose pocket does the future of Britain lie?
Brexit was sold on the inhuman policy of stopping immigrants and refugees from our own oil wars from entering Britain - Powellism brought to fruition
A few more drowned children pulled from the sea is has to make people realise what an incredibly vicious decision that was - surely!
Brexit was a major factor in the rise of racist-inspired Fascism in Europe - is that what you people want ?
None of you flag-waggers have the bottle to address any of those facts - not one of you
Now for the schoolyard insulting - your turn Iains
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:17 AM

" but when it came to fracking the Government had the right to overturn local wishes ?"
What astounding ignorance!
. In 1934, the country's oil resources were nationalised by the Petroleum Production Act, and it is within the remit of government to exploit such natural resources for the greater good. The same as putting pipelines or pylons in or over private land, or destroying natural landscapes by the imposition of wind turbines.
Or pursuing Brexit when a clear majority voted for the greater good!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:07 AM

One for all, and all for one???????


https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/925927/Brexit-news-eu-uk-europe-allies-economist-Andrea-Hoss-britain-not-alone

Another paper for the remoaners to slag off while ignoring the content. Who will be first I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 03:43 AM

Sorry about all the 'w's. I was in the process of correcting them when I accidentally submitted it. Mea culpa. (Now where have I heard that recently?)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 03:39 AM

The early comments on May's speech seem to be as vague as ever. Yes, we remainers understand what 'Leave' means - that's trivial - but where you then go, and how you get there is what the government seems to be as undecided about as ever. Yes, we know you want to keep the country unified with no hard border: apple pie and mitherhood. Spell out how you intend to achieve that. You may pledge about rights but have already voted down amwndmwnts to preserve thwm. So twll us how you are building those protecrions into law.

Fine words and unbutterwd parsnips.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:42 PM

Yup, it was a depressing watch for sure.

I wonder whether our native brexiteers have watched today's spectacle of Trump doing his protectionist, America-first stunt of applying a massive tariff on steel imports. Augurs really well for us doing an amazing trade deal with 'em post-brexit, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:18 PM

"Just watched the first half-hour of Question Time."
Me too
Wasn't it interesting how the Tory argued that the people's decision was sacrosanct on Brexit but when it came to fracking the Government had the right to overturn local wishes ?
Politicians do speak with forked tongues, don't they - the same as their supporters here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 06:31 PM

Just watched the first half-hour of Question Time. Were I to have been a Martian watching the "debate" on brexit, I'd have come to the conclusion that brexit supporters are a thick, braying, shouty, brainless bunch of retards. Fortunately, I'm not a Martian and I don't think that.


Not quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 05:21 PM


I wonder what part of leaving the EU the remoaners have such difficulty understanding?

Maybe the same thing that has been leading to such contradictory statements from the government for so long?

Still, I am sure Teresa May will explain everything without vagueness or ambiguity tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 05:05 PM

It is the brectums that need educating, Iains, but of course you knew that. Just another distraction.

No good news then?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 04:59 PM

I wonder what part of leaving the EU the remoaners have such difficulty understanding? As far as I can make out they are trying to argue they did not understand the implications and instead of a yes/no answer they wanted 20 questions. Do the fools think a referendum is some sort of quiz show that you watch on telly? It is the major decision of a generation. That in itself would inspire a rational person to educate themselves as to the issues at stake. Are remoaners all snowflakes that require spoon feeding? Are they unable to think for themselves any more?
Had they paid more attention to the issues before the vote perhaps the decibels of bleating might have been lessened.
They really are a most uninspiring, whining bunch of losers. You would think after nearly 4000 posts they would have exhausted their wittering.
Perhaps a kind moderator might put them out of their misery.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 04:40 PM

Silly boy! Any victory is a victory. To call it resounding is merely rubbing your face in the fact that the brexiteers won (whenever you drag yourself away from a wine glass long enough)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 04:34 PM

Shaw has got the right of it, ignore me, there's no need to reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:55 PM

Ignore him. There's no cure. And good point indeed, DMcG. The right of appeal! But these 'ere brexiteers don't want that. They think that 51.8% out of 72% is a resounding victory and that we're being undemocratic when we protest and actually try to save the country from doom. They're wrong. Unless we can change things there are hard times to come. No doubt they'll blame it on the phases of the moon or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:44 PM

Oh my God! It's contagious. Bobad has caught school playground syndrome from Iains!

DtG