BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 11:52 AM

Both the far Left and Right have contempt for the electorate because they do not support their extreme views.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 10:48 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM

"Clearly the basic referendum was totally democratic"

Precisely the opposite of this is the truth. Elected representatives, paid to know what they're talking about and paid to do the job, put the decision in the hands of an ignorant electorate whose ignorance was deliberately maintained by a campaign of cynical lies on both sides. The electorate was presented with a fear campaign that had no basis in reality from one side and by a pack of lies about taking back control, pie in the sky promises about the NHS and a healthy dose of racism thrown in by the other side. If that's your idea of democracy in action, well it isn't mine.

There we have it. Steve Shaw's basic premise is that the electorate is "ignorant" (himself included?). And so the decisions should have been taken by our elected representatives. Does he realise that those representatives were elected by the same people he considers "ignorant"? Hardly an argument for good governance!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 10:13 AM

"What is so difficult about voting yes or no?"

Shall we decide to get divorced, dear?

Yes! About time!

There, what was so difficult about that!

Nothing, dear. Piece of cake!

Er, but what about the house? Sell it? But there won't be enough for us to buy two separate ones...

And what about the savings? Oi, if you think you're having half you can go and whistle - they came out of my earnings while you were at home with the kids, and I always earned a lot more than you!

Oh, so bringing up the kids isn't important, is it! Bastard! I sacrificed my career for our kids!

And you can forget having a slice of the fifty grand my dad left me. Keep it in the family!

I AM family, you swine!

And the kids... they should live with me, not you. In fact, I should keep the house.

Oh yeah, sez who! Let's ask THEM who they want to live with!

But they're only five and three, you prat!

And I keep the sports car because you drive the J-reg Astra all the time...

Bugger off! That is NOT how it works and you know it!

And I get to have half your pension because looking after the kids meant I couldn't build mine up...

Oh yeah???! .................




Yes Iains, just a simple matter of yes or no, innit! Bwahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 10:09 AM

Steve, if they had not, the strength of feeling among the people would have led to a populist, anti-EU party taking control and doing it anyway. The referendum gave them a fighting chance of stopping it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM

"Clearly the basic referendum was totally democratic"

Precisely the opposite of this is the truth. Elected representatives, paid to know what they're talking about and paid to do the job, put the decision in the hands of an ignorant electorate whose ignorance was deliberately maintained by a campaign of cynical lies on both sides. The electorate was presented with a fear campaign that had no basis in reality from one side and by a pack of lies about taking back control, pie in the sky promises about the NHS and a healthy dose of racism thrown in by the other side. If that's your idea of democracy in action, well it isn't mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 09:47 AM

What is so difficult about voting yes or no? The treacherous PM is deliberately making a dog' breakfast of leaving. No doubt she is a fully paid up member of the secretive common purpose. The political entity that is registered as a charity. Wonder how that works?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 08:43 AM

BASTARD HTML!!

Only 'never' should have been underlined. FML!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 08:42 AM

There has never been a plan for BrexShit, Dave, and it is outrageous that the morally-bereft, clueless, and cowardly leaders of the Leave Campaign were allowed to shit their boxers and run away the morning after the Referendum.

Those dick-wads got us into this steaming pile of ordure, they should have been made to take responsibility for the execution of the entire BrexShit process.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 08:18 AM

Clearly the basic referendum was totally democratic, as it was an expression of the wishes of the eligible members of the state

There is nothing democratic about people who have been given the task of running the country and being paid plenty of money to do so abdicating responsibility for doing so.

The whole thing was a farce from start to finish and the farce continues with the current mismanagement. That anyone would for such a gamble without having any plans as to what would happen if it did not go their way beggars belief.

Nick Cohen in the Spectator has a better handle on it than most. We don’t know where Brexiteers are going now. And neither do they And a better turn of phrase.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 07:32 AM

BrexShit Campaigners Cheated - send for the cops!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:44 AM

"giving the dominant two-thirds a say in what happened, "
Should read
giving the majority two-thirds a dominant say in what happened,

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:43 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:31 AM

Though there's something undemocratic about, for example, Parliament deciding on whether we stay in the EU...? Seems that this democracy malarkey is a moveable feast...

Democracy: a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

Clearly the basic referendum was totally democratic, as it was an expression of the wishes of the eligible members of the state. For the representatives of those members to overturn the result of the referendum would be undemocratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:14 AM

"In Ireland they repeat the process(referendum) until the EU obtains the answer it wants."
Over a number of years - and when the demand for another is strong enough - there is no "them" about it and the EU has no say whatever in Referenda
Like proportional Representation, if is a higher form of democracy giving even those who lose the vote a say in the running of the country - not pefect, but far more democratic than the stupid 'first past the post' system
It is significant that, when Ireland was divided and the Six Counties decided to create a Protestant State giving the dominant two-thirds a say in what happened, the first thing they got rid of was Proportional Representation - leading to decades of sectarian violence and inequality based on religion and eventually, years of bloody warfare
Go read a book - anything written by Englishman Robert Kee will do very nicely
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:04 AM

Parliament decided unanimously to allow it to be decided by referendum.
Democracy in action.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:54 AM

Care to tell us why, when you were perfectly hunkydory with the first one? For the record, I'm opposed to both...


In Ireland they repeat the process(referendum) until the EU obtains the answer it wants. A rather perverted form of democracy doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:51 AM

Nothing complex, eh? So simple that two years of twisting, turning and agonising over the details have got us precisely nowhere. Thank God there's nothing complicated about it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:48 AM

" but frankly we are all paid a lot of money to take these decisions and to come to compromises and to see through these difficult issues."

ain't nuffink complex or difficult about voting yea or nay.
The woman is a fool.Glad the halfwit does not represent me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:31 AM

Though there's something undemocratic about, for example, Parliament deciding on whether we stay in the EU...? Seems that this democracy malarkey is a moveable feast...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM

If you read what Lucy Powell says, rather than what you have spun it as, she is of course completely right.

I did follow the link to the vile express, I will have to disinfect my keyboard and mouse now!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM

Lucy Powell makes closely-argued points about why she thinks a referendum was not appropriate. She did not anything like make a point about people being too stupid. Thing is, if you provide a link you have to accept that there's a danger of people actually reading it. As with Stanron yesterday, if you have a point to make it helps if you stick to the facts. And, whether you like it or not, the argument against referendums is a pretty respectable one and one which has been made here a number of times. I assume that you are opposed to a second referendum. Care to tell us why, when you were perfectly hunkydory with the first one? For the record, I'm opposed to both...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:26 AM

Rag,
Was anyone else aware at the time of the referendum that they were voting for a "hard" or "soft" Brexit.
I thought it was either we leave the EU or stay in the EU.

It was! Both sides made clear that voting Leave would take us out of the customs union and the single market, but the Remainers have been frantically trying to row back from that ever since.


There is talk of bringing the summer recess forward by 6 days, the upshot of which will mean that discussion is limited.................!!!
I, obviously mistakenly, thought we were a democratic country.

Parliament would have to vote for it, so however much we might disagree there is nothing undemocratic about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:46 AM

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/07/grassroots-rebellion-downing-street-is-starting-to-realise-the-scale-of-tory-opposition-to-the-chequers-plan.html

Blue clickys do not work on this item, but I would hate to disappoint you!

and below we have a labour mp claiming the electorate are too stupid to vote on referendums (not referenda, as quoted) I wonder why she thinks she is so superior? Perhaps they will confirm their stupidity by re electing her, come the next election.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/989592/Brexit-news-update-Brexit-referendum-Leave-Remain-second-vote-Lucy-Powell

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:29 AM

"Oops! Trouble wi' t'link..."
Still trouble wi' t'link Iains
Considering yesterdays fiasco of a debate, the skin-of-the-teeth vote and the steadily growing list of resignations, I suggest the article has probably been removed - watch this space (or not - a the case may be
There's democracy for you !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:07 AM

Stanron says:

"As for the UK veto, well I wouldn't trust our lily livered political class to put the UK's best interest befor their own political advantage."

And here is an important issue, the UK's political structures are very decayed, and it is much more likely that EU politicians and even commission officials will act in the best interests of myself and other people in the UK, than that UK politicians will. We have a corrupt cabinet in the UK, Fox should be disqualified from office for his expenses fiddles, and in gaol for giving a Whitehall job to an agent of a foreign power. He has demonstrated time and time again that his loyalty is to a foreign country. Johnson is a liar and an adulterer, May is weak, Rees Mogg is only there to serve the interests of the very rich. I would much rather Barnier, Juncker etc. made the decisions which affect the people of Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:04 AM

Problem is that leavers are transfering control from a body that works on the basis of concensus rrepresenting the interest of the citizens of 28 states to an over-priviledged elite which currently drive policy in the UK. Every time the negative impacts of leaving are higlighted, leavers just fall back to bleating "we won,get over it." If you want it, you pay for it - not just for yourself, but pay for the rest of the c0puntry. If you don't want freedom of movement for yourself, you are happy to pay tarrifs, you want customs restriction fair enough, don't f**k thing up for the rest of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 02:01 AM

Oops! Trouble wi' t'link...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 06:36 PM

Ooops! Trouble at Mill!


https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/07/grassroots-rebellion-downing-street-is-starting-to-realise-the-scale-of-to

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 06:12 PM

Not a lot of focus there, Stanron? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:50 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: What political union?

Well Steve, I am surprised that you haven't heard of 'Ever Closer Political and Economic Integration'. Here's one link, amongst many that I got from putting

'Ever closer political and economic'

into a search engine. Notice a, there is no need to mention the EU and b, i didn't use the G word. Try it. The link is

http://sites.tufts.edu/enricospolaore/files/2012/08/Euro-June-2013.pdf

I've not read it myself yet. I'll save it up for tomorrow.

As for the UK veto, well I wouldn't trust our lily livered political class to put the UK's best interest befor their own political advantage.

Don't forget that Tony Blair gave up our rebate in exchange for something or other and when the EU said "Sorry we don't think we can do it", didn't kick up any kind of fuss. How much are you willing to bet that he had not already been offered a place on the Commision a few years down the line. No wonder he wants to keep us in. If we are out he wont get the job, or the 10 million pension pot.

I suspect that David Cameron got a similar kind of offer if he managed to keep us in.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:50 PM

Stanron, you still cannot come up with one single way in which I will be better off out of the EU. Not one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 02:31 PM

If what I have just read is true it beggars belief.

There is talk of bringing the summer recess forward by 6 days, the upshot of which will mean that discussion is limited.................!!!

I, obviously mistakenly, thought we were a democratic country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 02:25 PM

The current debate on going in the house of commons is "interesting" to say the least.

This division within the ruling party, at a time when unity is vital, is of great concern.

I shall read the rest of the debate with trepidation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 12:27 PM

What political union? The 28 states are still independent countries, last time I heard. There are left-wing, right-wing, populist and a whole cornucopia of different regimes in Europe and I see no diminution of nationalism in any country that defends its national identity. The part of your post I quoted is just a routine piece of mindless brexiteer nonsense. You just about fell short of accusing "unelected Brussels bureaucrats imposing laws on us." It's just nonsense. No significant changes to overall EU policy can be made while we are able to exercise our veto. We have a big say in the formulation of all major EU laws and regulations and have disagreed with a vanishingly small number that ever managed to come into force. The best you managed there was a veiled insinuation that there's corruption afoot. Something about poor auditing. There may well be some poor financial management (up there with promising a billion to a bunch of terrorist sympathisers I suppose, or even wasting public money on a referendum and an ill-judged general election), but if you have evidence of deliberate EU corruption let's be having it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 12:20 PM

Thanks again Iains
Another for the list - keep 'em comin'
You realise you lifted that directly from something I posted yesterday
Nobody can ever accuse you of and excess of initiative and originality
"Where are the weasels?"
Perhaps they went "pop"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 12:11 PM

Was anyone else aware at the time of the referendum that they were voting for a "hard" or "soft" Brexit.

I thought it was either we leave the EU or stay in the EU.

Presume I must be mistaken!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 12:04 PM

"Let's face it, this guy and Mr T aren't exactly the brightest buttons on the SS uniform "
When young jimmie was a child, he thought like a child, Now he is in his dotage it seems he still thinks like a child!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 12:03 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Note the weasel words here.

Weasel words, but whose? Yours or mine? I made five points. Where are the weasels?

For instance, for which years has the EU presented fully audited accounts?

How was the EU not incompetent when it failed to offer reforms which could have reversed the outcome of the referendum?

Did you know when you voted back in the seventies, if you did, that the Economic Community was only a first step towards political union? I certainly didn't and had I known I would have voted against it. I am sure that most people would have done the same and I am equally sure that that was why we were not told.

My last statement in itself is proof of my next point. We were not allowed to vote on political union. Economic cooperation was acceptable and we were allowed to vote on it. Political Union was not acceptable so we weren't told. Dishonest and undemocratic.

The train wreck observation is my personal judgment. You may see it as a shining light, it might even be at the end of a tunnel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM

But a lot of Brexiteers seem to believe where we seem to be heading is as bad if not worse than losing.

I see no evidence of that at all, unless you mean those who fear we are heading for a soft Brexit instead of what we voted for.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 11:52 AM

"There you go, Jim!"
Never lost faith in him fro a moment more predictable that No 14 buses
Let's face it, this guy and Mr T aren't exactly the brightest buttons on the SS uniform
Maybe one is the other on an off-day - wonder if the betting shop's still open!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 10:28 AM


Does not matter, brexiteers won, remainiacs lost.

The referendum, yes. But a lot of Brexiteers seem to believe where we seem to be heading is as bad if not worse than losing.

And surely where we end up is what matters?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM

There you go, Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 09:46 AM

Does not matter, brexiteers won, remainiacs lost. Drivelling does not change this reality!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 09:17 AM

Spot-on Steve.

Unfortunately the Union-Jack-Underpants and British-Bulldog-Tattoo Brigade aren't intellectually equipped to understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 09:10 AM

"The EU is undemocratic. We were never allowed to vote on stuff they reckoned we would reject. We cannot elect any of the people who originate policy."

Note the weasel words here. "We" can vote on all EU policy, and, indeed, we have the power of veto in many policy areas, unlike some smaller nations. We are one of the most influential nations when it comes to drawing up EU law and, out of thousands of laws or regulations brought into being since we joined, we have demurred on less than three percent of them - outvoted, not non-voted. There is no scheme for disallowing such votes. "The people who originate policy" are elected representatives acting on the suggestions, and only the suggestions, of commissioners. Those commissioners can't bring policy into being - which is what I understand by the word "originate," a word you apparently chose in order to obfuscate. You might as well accuse all UK governments of being undemocratic because they have unelected advisers suggesting policy to ministers. The EU is a large organisation with a necessarily large bureaucracy, but it's no less democratic than any of its member states. We get that you are a solid leaver, but if you wish to make your case it would help if you stuck to the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 08:27 AM

"What next, I wonder"

With any luck, the abandonment of the flawed and completely failed BrexShit Experiment, a return by our government to the real business of running the U.K. for the benefit of all of its citizens, and taking a lead in the overhaul and reformation of the EU.

Oh, nearly forgot - an a GE to kick this corrupt and incompetent Tory government out of office for a very long time.

It's a dream, but it's considerably more realistic than 'Take are cuntry back' and lies on buses.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 08:23 AM

SPB, because all UK civil servants engaged in policy formation and UK policy think tanks only advise. The decision lies with ministers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 08:17 AM

It's just been announced that Former Education Secretary, Justine Greening is calling for a second referendum on Brexit
She argues that the Remainers have never been happy at leaving and the Leavers believe that the current proposals are tantamount to staying in the EU
What next, I wonder
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 08:08 AM

"The EU is undemocratic. We were never allowed to vote on stuff they reckoned we would reject. We cannot elect any of the people who originate policy."

So if we leave the EU, how are you going to guarantee that all UK civil servants engaged in policy formation, UK policy think tanks etc will be democratically elected, or is it just foerigners you resent doing this????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 07:25 AM

You could be right about his true identity, Jim. But the similarity of style, and the use of the same insults against the same people persuade me that they are one and the same. And he's never denied it, not once.

But I agree, one swallow a summer doth not make and, after a brief exchange of light-hearted banter, our mate will almost certainly revert to type. He can't help himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 07:01 AM

So Stanron, a series of lies about the EU and then "we are better off out". How about you instead provide a list of the positive benefits to be of leaving. Ones which outweigh the positives of the programmes I listed. Just how will I be better off outside of the EU?