BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 09:00 AM

Maybe they meant 'Britain'! Don't think so, After Edward 1 went motoring through Wales the subsequent Statute of Rhuddlan lost the Principality its independence and it became effectively an annexed territory of the English crown around 1283AD. England had several invasions of Scotland prior to the treaty of Berwick around 1357, where independence was recognised up until the act of union.(I think) Richard 2 reigned 1367-1400. The bard was quite a bit later on the scene.
So a bit of poetic licence as far as the landlocked Scottish border was concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 09:48 AM

I didn't mean that much by it, but I have a bit of thing about those occasions when an author or songwriter says something and people understand the opposite. The point of John of Gaunt's speech is "you may think it is like that, but it is actually like this". You get the same thing in West Side Story where a lot of people think the song is about how wonderful America is, but is actually about the gap between the American dream and what the immigrants experience.

No need to dwell on the point any further.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 10:57 AM

DMcG I am afraid I had to learn big chunks of Richard 2 for English Lit. O Level. I like to throw bits out now and again. It all gets a little too serious here. Levity has it's place.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 12:54 PM

It all gets a little too serious here. Levity has it's place

Yep. Like comparing a double-tap of the enter key to Hitler, for instance?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:04 PM

DMcG. I was looking for a quote on repetition. The one I chose probably was not the most apt. I apologize.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:49 PM

Jim and I are equally massive "packmates." So much so that we never communicate with each other except for what you see in the threads. Who's the twat now, Inanes? 😂

John, the final act in that thread you claim you didn't get closed was your most incredibly sweary and offensive name-calling post of all time. You really don't need to do that in order to make whatever points you want to make. You're a lovely man whose opinions I value, though you don't really do irony, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:52 PM

And your 0317 post is cowardly. No names, no pack drill, eh?

Moving on...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 08:47 PM

You get the same thing in West Side Story where a lot of people think the song is about how wonderful America is, but is actually about the gap between the American dream and what the immigrants experience.

No need to dwell on the point any further.

Except to say you need to pay more attention. The song is actually about both. That's what makes it a great song.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 01:42 AM

On the West Side Story song "America!": Certainly both the dream and the gap are presented. But I would say essence is that the women present the dream and the men say "Yes that's the dream. But a dream is all it is for people like us". That's why, in my opinion, the song is about the gap. But I encourage everyone to form their own view.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:17 AM

Who's the twat now, Inanes? 😂
It is no surprise contributors below the line are diminishing with the above learned contributions from our resident boasting "well educated scientist" Shaw you are a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 08:36 AM

When did I ever say I was well-educated?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 08:51 AM

Well-educated? Educated to a greater degree than those you are denigrating from a start point of complete ignorance? Educated better than those you call Philistines? Often Shaw unfortunately your input more often than not displays the truth of the matter.

Yet to hear any of the "remainers" views on the storm that is just about to hammer the EU over an unofficial referendum about to be held in Spain over Catalonia seceding from Spain. The EU is on a hiding to nothing on the issue as it cannot win no matter what happens. Political observers deem this issue to be a greater threat to the EU than Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

"scientist"......lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

Do you see parallels between Catalonia in Spain and Scotland in the UK. I know that Scotland and the UK united through political means 300 odd years ago. What is the history between Catalonia and Spain?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:30 AM

Do you see parallels between Catalonia in Spain and Scotland in the UK.
No, not really. Scotland wanted a vote, and the UK permitted one to take place. (Not equivalent at all)
If the UK had decided that a vote could not be binding, and would be ignored, I still don't believe you would have seen the heavy handed tactics that the Spanish have used.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:32 AM

The Spanish/Catalan problem may be worthy of its own thread, if anyone is interested enough.

I don't really think it relates to "Post Brexit life in the UK"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:57 AM

Nigel Parsons. It is related only to the extent that there is a drive towards greater unification or federalism in Europe while at the same time Brexit and the Catalonians seek greater autonomy. The two concepts cannot be reconciled. I can recommend some Farage clips on youtube
Farage
Like the man or hate him, he makes very articulate arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:10 AM

Iains:
As I said I don't really think it relates to "Post Brexit life in the UK"
It may relate to "post Brexit life in the EU" but that wasn't the title of this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:11 AM

I do not suppose for one second the "remainers" on this forum would open, or even discuss, anything to do with what is currently happening in Spain Nigel. The main reason for this being that it is their fiction that all is well in the EU and in the Eurozone. Examination of current events in Spain and in Brussels prove that quite a number of supposedly inalienable rights can be conveniently kicked into the long grass whenever it suits as far as the EU is concerned. In short, the EU and all it's weaknesses are demonstrated for all to see.

The other factor that has come out of the recent Labour Party Conference is that should Corbyn and Labour win the next election the consensus is that there will be a run on the £ Sterling that will see it devalued as much as 50% if McDonnell's unpriced idiotic schemes are put in place. I wonder how loud the cheers of approval will be from Connemara and County Clare?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM

Catalonian autonomy and Scottish independence are perfectly compatable with a strong federal Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:36 AM

David Carter. I hope you are correct, but I find it hard to believe.

For STEVIE BLUNDER "When did I ever say I was well-educated?"

Allow me to refresh your memory my pompous little friend:
RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 06:22 AM

As a matter of fact, I'm an inveterate user of dictionaries. I'll let my use of English in my posts to this forum stand testament to that. It's just that, as a WELL-EDUCATED SCIENTIST, I tend to question everything and take nothing at face value, and I don't care much for authority.
Tell me did you leave Catholicism because God decided he could not be a**sed to argue with you any longer?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:38 AM

From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM
Catalonian autonomy and Scottish independence are perfectly compatable with a strong federal Europe.

If that is so, why are the EU so concerned about the possibility of UK autonomy & independence?

Or do you think that Scotland & the Catalan people would be 'autonomous & independent' within the EU? (and be happy to be so)
The Scots referendum debates made clear that that was probably the least likely outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:08 AM

The EU are not concerned, just rather sad at what the UK is doing to itself. Of course Scotland and Catalonia could be autonomous and independent within the EU. And the Scots referendum debate made no such thing clear, the Scottish people were fed the lie that their continued EU membership depended upon remaining in the UK. And a fat lot of good remaining in the UK has done them in that respect.

Scotland is best off out of the UK and in the EU. If it was I would move there given the chance. Catalonia, I am not so sure, I don't know as much about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:13 AM

"For STEVIE BLUNDER"
Why do you persst on lowering the tone of this interesting discussion?
"Allow me to refresh your memory my pompous little friend:"
And why do you constantly feel the need to talk down to people ?
We've already got one of them and he tends to do it with far more panache than you
"I wonder how loud the cheers of approval will be from Connemara and County Clare?"
See what I mean - it's like being in a ******* Kindergarten between the pair of you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:14 AM

From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:08 AM
The EU are not concerned, just rather sad at what the UK is doing to itself.
Of course the EU are concerned, They are about to lose one of their biggest cash contributors. Why do you think they are trying to get such a big payment out of us?
Of course Scotland and Catalonia could be autonomous and independent within the EU. And the Scots referendum debate made no such thing clear, the Scottish people were fed the lie that their continued EU membership depended upon remaining in the UK. And a fat lot of good remaining in the UK has done them in that respect.
The EU made it clear that there would be no automatic entry for Scotland if they left the UK.
If they attempted to re-join they would have to introduce the Euro (a requirement for any new joiners to the EU) they would also have to be accepted by the remaining 27 members (unlikely to be accepted by Spain as it would set a bad example for Catelonia).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:17 AM

To maybe lghten the tone - from another thread
Wonderful cartoon in this morning's Times showing Boris Johnson, arse to the fore, in Bunny-girl costume on a front page of Playboy
The caption reads, "Entertainment for Tories, How I screwed Britain - my biggest boobs, BreXit rated)"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:22 AM

Teribus, I think you misunderstand the situation in Spain. I havn't lived in Spain for the best part of 25 years, and then it was in Canarias, not Catalonia. But I do understand that the autonomy of autonomous regions is very precious to people, and there are deep historical reasons for this, related to divides which have not fully healed since the civil war. But the way I see it the Catalan people don't have any problem with the EU, their problem is with Rajoy. And Rajoy is from the PP, and the PP are, however sanitised, the heirs to Franco, who was really hated in Catalonia (not so much in Canarias I hasten to add). Catalan people, like pretty much all Spanish people, are happy with the EU, and extremely happy with the Euro since their savings are not being incessantly devalued as the were when they were in pesetas. Plus Catalonia (and Canarias) have benefited enormously from ERDF.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:26 AM

Nigel, Spain made it clear that they would not block Scottish membership of the EU. And they would not necessarily have to adopt the Euro, though in my view that would be the sensible thing to do.

What is it with you lot and the Euro. The Euro is doing fine, it is a strong and stable currency, to coin a phrase. I am trying to move as many of my savings into Euros as possible, except for those I am moving into Australian dollars. Unfortunately its not so easy to move income streams.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:51 AM

Ok, I admit it. I'm well-educated, at least well enough to know that "well-educated" should have its hyphen.

There is no "consensus" that there will be a run on the pound should Labour win. Stop making things up. John McDonnell stated that the party was planning for that possible eventuality. A very responsible attitude. Pity your party didn't plan for a run on the pound in 1992, eh, Teribus? I would also suggest that scaremongering by the right about a run on the pound will backfire very badly. William Hague tried a similar trick in 2001 by claiming that Labour would have us joining the euro, "last chance to save the pound." He got bloody trounced. But you Tories never learn. Please keep it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:59 AM

"Well-educated? Educated to a greater degree than those you are denigrating from a start point of complete ignorance? Educated better than those you call Philistines? Often Shaw unfortunately your input more often than not displays the truth of the matter."

Is there a translator in the house? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 12:14 PM

Ehmmmm not quite right on Spain and EU membership for Scotland David. At the time of the referendum their Foreign Minister stated that he would not comment on it one way or the other.

There are I think six countries in the EU who would block an independent Scotland's entry due to the influence that would have on minorities within their own borders (Even in the EU Member States best national interests will "trump" the ideology of the EU Commission)

In Spain IF Catalonia goes ahead and secedes that will be 25% of the wealth of Spain gone, it is one of the most industrialised parts of Spain. They will find themselves out of the EU without a currency of their own - exactly the same as an independent Scotland would find themselves. From that as a start point neither would be a member of the EU for a further 10 to 15 years. |IF Catalonia goes for independence from Spain, a much poorer Spain will face calls from two other regions The Basque region and Galicia for either greater autonomy or independence. The EU will have to decide which to back, they will more like as not have to back Spain, as they appear to be doing now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 12:29 PM

Purely to answer your question Shaw:

1: "Educated to a greater degree than those you are denigrating from a start point of complete ignorance?

This has been a previous claim of yours when you have called into question the level to which others have been educated. The contention of yours is made however from the basis of complete ignorance related to the people you were comparing yourself to.

2: "Educated better than those you call Philistines?

Philistines as far as you are concerned are those who have learned from working their way up and from life's experiences - none of which you appear to rate too highly. Unfortunately for your side of the argument some of the most successful men in the world came from such beginnings.

3: "Often Shaw unfortunately your input more often than not displays the truth of the matter."

Now what "well-educated" man would refer to flocks of grouse? Especially one who taught Biology ("the study of life and living organisms, including their physical and chemical structure, function, development and evolution").

Not my fault Shaw that such a "well-educated" man as yourself cannot understand plain English.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 12:40 PM

I do not think most europeans realise just how much of a discrete entity Galicia is. It is very proud of it's celtic past and the Galego language, which is widely spoken. It has had several independance organisations in existance in the recent past and should Catalonia free it's shackles I would anticipate Galicia following right behind. Even though Franco came from the area he did Galicians no favours and tried to destroy the language.
The basques have been agitating for more independence for decades.
Some interesting facts on the languages below and possible reasons for the friction with the Castilian areas of Spain.

http://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2201&context=etd

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 01:56 PM

Indeed, Iains, and good luck to them. They have a distinct folk music tradition, obviously there is Luar na Lubre, but more besides. So good luck to an independent Galicia within the EU.

Rajoy, like May, is desperate to keep a failing state together.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:00 PM

David Carter. I lived a while in Galicia and they have many other sensible pastimes besides-like tending vineyards, making wine and distilling the residue to make aguardiente. My cellar had a monstrous grape press and 500lt still. It gives a whole new breadth of meaning to rocket fuel!
But back to the subject in question. How do you reconcile regional autonomy with creeping federalisation. The entire history of the EU is that of a furtive grab of power by a largely un-elected bureaucracy.
It started with the Iron and Steel community then steadily morphed
into the unaccountable monolith that exists today. The entire history of the EU is that of usurping everything that represents the nation state. Centralisation and control by diktat at an ever accelerating rate.
How can you possibly have a concept of autonomy that has any sort of sensible meaning when it is existing within an entity that sucks in power with greater efficiency that a black hole?
To my mind the two concepts are totally incompatible. Additionally the power elite lie through their teeth when it suits. There is now a thrust towards the formation of a European defence Force, with centrally controlled purchasing and specifications. Economically it probably makes some sense but other would find the idea rests uncomfortably. Especially as the total denial of such an "outrageous concept" was not in the so far distant past.
What other cunning little ruses are up their sleeves that they willno doubt lie about? Theft of bank accounts was trialed ever so successfully no too long ago-it can now occur anywhere in Europe!
You may trust them- I do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:00 PM

Nice one, Teribus. I have plenty more jobs for you up my sleeve. You're a lovely jumper-through-hoops. If you want to have a bash at anyone else's "plain English," by the way, entertain yourself for a minute or two with Iain's last post. After all, you do it with Jim often enough. Come on now, be fair! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:01 PM

By which I meant the 12.40 pm one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:05 PM

So Shaw why do you not correct jimmies unique massacre of the english language? After all for a well educated "polymath" such as yourself it would be merely the matter of a moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:22 PM

The trouble is Iains, that you are wedded to the concept of the nation state. Much more sensible is a system of autonomous regions which manage their own affairs. But some things, for instance defence, and trade relations, need to be negotiated at a higher level, which is where the EU comes in. The EU does not grab power, it is entities like the UK and Spain which do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:33 PM

David Carter. I think many people are wedded to the idea of nation state and moving away from it will take time. If the EU was more democratic in it's institutions and operated with total transparency people might accept integration more readily. I suspect the EU needs to change, not the people. Trying to merge disparate economies into one was a dream too far as I am sure the Euro will surely demonstrate in the not too distant future.
The history of Empire does not bode well for the extent of the EU lifespan, even the American Empire(hegemony) is fast racing into the ropes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 04:27 PM

From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:22 PM

The trouble is Iains, that you are wedded to the concept of the nation state. Much more sensible is a system of autonomous regions which manage their own affairs. But some things, for instance defence, and trade relations, need to be negotiated at a higher level, which is where the EU comes in. The EU does not grab power, it is entities like the UK and Spain which do that.

The UK does not 'grab power' in relation to defence. It aims to retain what power it has. The UK is happy to allow a supranational defence power. But is also happy to continue with that being NATO, rather than pass it to a relatively new entity, the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 05:26 PM

If the EU was "more democratic?" So what was "democratic" about a shitty coalition that excluded the second-largest party, a referendum that was called by a government frightened to death of both UKIP and its own right wing, nothing to do with the interests of this country, a referendum campaign predicated on telling the people of this country lie after lie and whipping up xenophobia, a party failing to win a majority doing a shitty, grubby deal with a bunch of sectarian bigots in order to cling to power, that same minority government trying to pass a bill that would mean parliament being bypassed on thousands of laws at their whim? "If the EU was more democratic" my arse. We have absolutely nothing to teach the EU about democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 05:37 PM

How about.... the side with most votes in a referendum is the winner?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 05:52 PM

"the side with most votes in a referendum is the winner?"
Like the Nazis got the most votes in Germany, do you mean?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 06:16 PM

ELECTION VICTORY

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 06:54 PM

So what has "the side with most [sic] votes" got to do with any point I made? The answer is precisely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:26 AM

Calm down Shaw you are getting hysterical. Is that because it took you two days to conjure up a response in the earthquake thread? The strain a bit too much for you? For a well educated scientist I fail to see why you cannot grasp the fact that for any election in the uk the side with the most votes in any area. And the tories are still in power!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:00 AM

"Calm down Shaw you are getting hysterical.
Are you so unsure of your position that you need to fill most of your postings with abuse Iains?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:21 AM

NATO, there is something completely undemocratic. Gets us embroiled in faraway wars against countries we have no problem with in defence of the supposed interests of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:25 AM

Err... Iains, I think that the earthquake thread showed Steve Shaw to have a lot better grasp of science than you, and a lot better judgement of when to believe things in the media written by fringe scientists.