BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 06:42 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 05:26 PM
"If the EU was more democratic" my arse. We have absolutely nothing to teach the EU about democracy.
Except, possibly, that when 'the people' are allowed a vote then the result should be accepted even when it's not the one the EU wanted.
It seems the EU might have realised that that ploy wouldn't work with the UK, but they've used it with other countries, and would probably be prepared to use it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 07:11 AM

You're talking past me, Nigel. Read my post again.

Don't worry about Iains, Jim. He simply doesn't matter. By the way, Iains, if you really want to know, I'd been in Madeira for a week and my opportunities for posting to Mudcat were somewhat reduced at times. I'm sure Mrs Steve would really have appreciated it had I said "Hang about, dear, while I just send off a half-hour reply to this weirdly-swears mentalist who has a plural first name. You'll have to wait a bit longer for your stroll down the prom and your coffee and traditional Portuguese custard tart..."

The Portuguese custard tarts are to die for, by the way. I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able to stop mentioning them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 07:33 AM

Weirdly-sweary. The spellcheck "corrected" it twice!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM

That was my point exactly Nigel. Steve says the EU has nothing to learn from the UK about democracy, yet the EU must be the most undemocratic institution in the Western hemisphere.

When they get a result they don't approve of in a referendum or election they force(blackmail) the people into voting again and again until they get the result they want.
If it hadn't been for Mr Farage and his Party we would be well on the way to becoming just another star in the United states of Europe flag.
Before long someone a lot less wholesome than Mr Farage would rise in Germany and there would be absolutely nothing we could do about it.

Thank Christ for UKIP   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 02:28 PM

Better a star on the EU flag than an unloved stain on the floor of the community of nations. UKIP, with plenty of help from the tories, have stuffed this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:01 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 07:11 AM
You're talking past me, Nigel. Read my post again.
Okay, I've re-read your post. It still says "If the EU was more democratic" my arse. We have absolutely nothing to teach the EU about democracy.
I stick with my response that we can teach the EU a lot about democracy: "that when 'the people' are allowed a vote then the result should be accepted even when it's not the one the EU wanted.
It seems the EU might have realised that that ploy wouldn't work with the UK, but they've used it with other countries, and would probably be prepared to use it again." (I'm not quite sure where your arse comes into the discussion, but if you must mention it that's your prerogative.)

Perhaps you should re-read your own post. Aren't teachers supposed to encourage their pupils to read what they are responding to? Or are you past that stage?

I could go on about your post: "what was "democratic" about a shitty coalition that excluded the second-largest party, a referendum that was called by a government frightened to death of both UKIP and its own right wing, nothing to do with the interests of this country,"
The referendum was not called by the coalition. It was called by parliament. The coalition only allowed the referendum to take place once it had been voted on in parliament. The referendum vote had massive support from the labour party (your 'second-largest party'). The vote to hold a referendum was passed (ayes) 544 (noes) 53. (so with 650 MPs, if the only ones to abstain were from Labour, and all the votes against were from Labour that's only (650-544) 106 Labour MPs who didn't vote for a referendum (either by voting against, or by abstention). That means (and I'll spell it out for you) that at least 150 Labour MPs voted to hold a referendum on the possibility of the UK leaving the EU.

Try responding to facts, with facts, rather than your somewhat one-sided suppositions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:16 PM

Sorry, I'll correct that fact. At the time of the vote to hold a referendum Labour had only 232 MPs. so at least 126 labour MPs voted to hold a referendum.
That's still more Labour MPs than the total that either voted against, or abstained.
So the majority of Labour MPs voted in favour of holding a referendum on the UK leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:25 PM

Don't be so disingenuous, Nigel. Any party that voted against a referendum would have been instant toast and you know it. You don't do realpolitik, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:35 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:25 PM
Don't be so disingenuous, Nigel. Any party that voted against a referendum would have been instant toast and you know it. You don't do realpolitik, do you?

Thanks for the confirmation. So if any party voting against holding a referendum "would be toast" you obviously accept that it wasn't just a ploy by the coalition, but a response to a perceived requirement of the electorate.

I may not do "realpolitik". I prefer to do realism.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:45 PM

Of course it was a ploy. The great British public had been groomed by UKIP and Cameron for years to fully expect a referendum. Cameron knew that he wouldn't face parliamentary opposition. The referendum was definitely going to happen by that stage and the Labour Party opposing it at that point would (a) have meant certain defeat and (b) sidelined them forever. Leave your principles at home, Nigel, and accept realpolitik when it's staring you in the face. I bloody hate it but that's the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:57 PM

And, of course, by your reasoning, any of the 53 who put their heads above the parapet and voted against a referendum would also be 'toast'.
Can you confirm whether any of them have been re-elected? Or do I need to check that for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:59 PM

Just checked. 31 of the 53 remain as MPs. All in Scotland, where they may have been voting in line with their constituents wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:11 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:45 PM

Of course it was a ploy. The great British public had been groomed by UKIP and Cameron for years to fully expect a referendum. Cameron knew that he wouldn't face parliamentary opposition. The referendum was definitely going to happen by that stage and the Labour Party opposing it at that point would (a) have meant certain defeat and (b) sidelined them forever. Leave your principles at home, Nigel, and accept realpolitik when it's staring you in the face. I bloody hate it but that's the way it is.

Unfortunately your worldview is highly biased. "UKIP & Cameron". Do you not recall the Labour party promising a referendum before taking us further into Europe? (then reneging)

Here

Hannan says Blair made promises of a referendum in both 2004 and 2005.

Certainly, on 20 April 2004 that was the case, as the PM told Parliament it should debate the European constitutional question "in detail and decide upon it" and "then let the people have the final say".

He ended the Commons statement with the war-cry: "Let the issue be put. Let the battle be joined."

No doubt in that pledge; although Blair's advisors would today point out that he is specifically referring to a debate with constitutional significance, not a watered down treaty.

Fast-forward to the Labour election manifesto in 2005 and the language is as forthright.

Blair promises: "We will put it [the constitution] to the British people in a referendum and campaign wholeheartedly for a Yes vote."
All of which is in contrast to Blair's response to the Financial Times in April this year after it asked if there would be a referendum.

He replied: "No. If it's not a constitutional treaty, so that it alters the basic relationship between Europe and the member states, then there isn't the same case for a referendum."

Now admittedly he was talking about a referendum on whether to ratify a treaty taking us further into the EU, but it comes down to much the same thing. If we weren't prepared to go further in, the alternative would have been to leave. Either we were part of Europe, going for "ever closer union" or we were not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:13 PM

Labour's promises on an EU referendum
"We will put it — the EU Constitution — to the British people in a referendum and campaign whole-heartedly for a 'Yes' vote." — Labour Party manifesto, May 2005
"The manifesto is what we put to the public. We've got to honour that manifesto." — Gordon Brown, BBC 1 Politics Show, June 24, 2007

So stop trying to put it all down as a plot by UKIP and the Conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:15 PM

The only difference between Conservative promises for a referendum, and Labour promises for a referendum is that the Conservatives kept theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:30 PM

Game and set to Nigel I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:51 PM

Yes, well, Nigel, the key point is that New Labour "reneged." It's a bloody good bet that Cameron would have "reneged" had he even remotely suspected that the vote would be to leave. But the hubris-laden twat really did think he couldn't lose. Must be a Tory disease as it's exactly what May did earlier this year. Nigel, for the third time I invite you to contemplate the realpolitik of the last three or four years and stop pretending that any politician, ever, acted on principle or on any promise he made that suddenly seemed to be a bad idea after all. Get real, in other words.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:58 PM

Anyway, I'm in poetic mode this evening. Here's a verse from "Mandalay" by Kipling that Boris Johnson's aide only just managed to stop Boris from reciting in an event in Burma:

'Er petticoat was yaller an' 'er little cap was green,
An' 'er name was Supi-yaw-lat - jes' the same as Theebaw's Queen,
An' I seed her first a-smokin' of a whackin' white cheroot,
An' a-wastin' Christian kisses on an 'eathen idol's foot:
Bloomin' idol made o' mud
Wot they called the Great Gawd Budd
Plucky lot she cared for idols when I kissed 'er where she stud!
On the road to Mandalay...

😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 05:02 PM

And thank you to the prescient John Donne for this, a corrective to all those stupid brexiteer xenophobes' warblings:


'No Man is an Island'

No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

It tolls for the UK, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 05:06 PM

So, under 'realpolitik' (a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.) Labour breaking their promises is a 'good' thing. Cameron keeping his is a 'bad' thing.    Strange world-view that one.

I suppose it all boils down to whether you think the UK is better off in our out of the EU. You then adjust your thinking accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 06:48 PM

"So, under 'realpolitik' (a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.) Labour breaking their promises is a 'good' thing. Cameron keeping his is a 'bad' thing.    Strange world-view that one."

Not at all, Nigel. The point is that it's the real world view. Labour "breaking" its promise was a very good thing, which, unfortunately, was washed away by Cameron "keeping" his. And, whilst we're on realpolitik, and before you get too carried away by call-me-Dave's high-minded "principles," let's just remember why Cameron called his referendum. Nothing to do with the nation's interests (which was to stay in the EU, which he was certain would happen) and everything to do with trying to calm his belligerent backbenchers and staving off Ukip. And if you really want to gnaw away at politicians' promises, you may care to start with Theresa's "no election" promise. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 07:06 PM

'realpolitik' (a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.)

No leader of ANY mainstream political party in the UK, OR in Europe though for one nano-second that the electorate of the UK would vote LEAVE - that was the reality when any of them talked about a referendum.

The Conservatives honoured their pledge to the electorate of the UK and held a referendum fully expected the "Remain" side to win - IT DIDN'T - "realpolitik" is for the politicians in the UK to recognise the declared will of the electorate of the UK and deliver what they voted for as rapidly as possible by securing the best deal possible that works to the best advantage of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 09:13 PM

Valiantly hopeful, Teribus. Realpolitik may overtake you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:13 AM

The "Real" situation that politicians have to deal with in both Europe and in the UK is that we voted to LEAVE.

The "Real" situation that politicians in the UK have to deal with is that LEAVE means precisely that and that is what the electorate of the UK expect them to deliver.

The fact that you have not accepted the reality of the situation does not surprise me in the slightest. The Conservative Party Conference is about to open in Manchester this week - those attending it are greeted with a banner hanging from a bridge with the message "HANG THE TORIES" with two effigies in suits suspended from the bridge - that is the tolerance of todays supposed socialists.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 03:36 AM

Meanwhile polling stations are opening in Catalonia and French Bretons are rallying for self determination and to show solidarity with Catalonia. No doubt the Basques are thinking along similar lines.
I would be surprised if the Greeks and haircut Cypriots are over enamoured with the united states of europe. Put Brexit into the mix and trying to pretend it is all happy families is simply not going to wash.

    In the caldron boil and bake;
    Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
    Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
    Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
    Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,—
    For a charm of powerful trouble,
    Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 04:37 AM

"The Conservative Party Conference is about to open in Manchester this week"

I agree that it's a pisser that nasty toff tories and their corporate mates are littering up the streets of magnificent Manchester. I really wish they'd fuck off elsewhere, they drag the atmosphere down.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 04:43 AM

Stu - 01 Oct 17 - 04:37 AM

The voice of tolerant, liberal, socialism.

Can't wait to hear any possible defence of this stated view of Stu's by any of the "usual suspects".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 05:13 AM

Iains, Catalans and Bretons are rallying because they don't want to be part of Spain and France respectively, not because they don't want to be part of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM

Bretons?? I had no idea that they were even considering seeking independence or separation from metropolitan France.

Now as far as Spain goes we do have separatist movements in Galicia, the Basque region and in Catalonia where apparently the Spanish Guarda Civil, specially bussed in from elsewhere in Spain are firing rubber bullets at civilians who are trying to vote.

The problem the EU has David is that should any of these regions gain independence then they automatically find themselves OUT of the EU. The EU requires large tax paying entities such as Spain, France, Italy to bankroll the EU's schemes so that is who the EU supports in these instances. In the recent Scottish Independence referendum the EU position was the UK is a member state if you opt to leave the UK then you are no longer a member of the EU - same applies to the Spanish regions - oh and the Bretons if ever they should decide to part brass-rags and become independent from France.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 06:08 AM

Sorry Teribus, my mistake in believing Iains.

Catalonia in particular is a net contributor to Spain. So if it were independent, it would be welcomed by the EU for this reason alone, in addition to the fact that it has a vibrant culture which the EU will always support.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 06:13 AM

The link is a little old but does illustrate not everyone aspires to the united states of europe.
https://www.rt.com/news/159236-separatism-increase-europe-elections/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 06:34 AM

Dunno about hang the Tories. What is very likely is that May will shortly be hung out to dry by the Tory backwoodsmen. Stu's expressing a view that he wishes the Tories would go elsewhere ("fuck off" is not part of my personal Mudcat lexicon as I have other words I can use) does not go against liberal, tolerant socialism. He's expressing a wish that's echoed all over a city that the Tories have done no favours to. He's not actually driving the Tories out. You wouldn't call him illiberal and intolerant if he'd said it about the BNP (or maybe even UKIP, though you do seem to be perfectly aligned with them). If you want plenty of examples of illiberal intolerance you only have to look at the excoriation of, ridicule of and lies told about Corbyn by your side before the election. What a mistake. You now realise that you have to take him seriously.

Spain needs Catalonia, a relatively prosperous part of Spain, because its loss would seriously impoverish the country. Naturally, if the improbable ever came about and Catalonia did leave, the implications apropos of the EU would become relevant. In the meantime, the EU doesn't come into it. I'm far more concerned that Barça would no longer be part of La Liga, meaning no more El Clásico matches with Real Madrid. A bloody disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 06:36 AM

"The voice of tolerant, liberal, socialism."

Huh? I'm a nowt me old mucker*. Get that straight boy!

Also, you don't have to put up with a city full of hooray henry's, rich tosspots, drunken lecherous old lords, lying old etonians, the London media bubble transported look stock up here, bizzies everywhere and decent watering holes chock full of tory arseholes.

Gawd alone knows why they chose to have their conference here. Manchester is a fine city that deserves better than their sort.



*Actually, I've decided to test out a persona roughly based on the usual suspects (of which you're one Tezza) too try to gain some insight into the way their minds work; a sort of role-playing to try to suss out how their self-delusion works. I wonder if there is a paper in it. This was prompted by the exchange earlier in this thread where I got pissed off with the relentless idiocy of some of the 'members'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 07:06 AM

Monaco play in the French league Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM

That's a relief. In that case, go, Catalonia!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 12:35 PM

I am sure that IF Catalonia opted for independence it would be welcomed into the EU in accordance with the EU's own rules and procedures. Immediately on achieving independence Catalonia would find itself automatically OUT of the EU and it would have to apply for membership. The process would take between 10 and 15 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:09 PM

More than 400 injured by police in Catalonia referendum. This is where we see the real colours of the EU. Is this why a pan european defence force is being sought? Modern Spain is displaying the same jackboots as under Franco and the EU Leaders say nothing! Is this tacit encouragement? These events will make people unhappy throughout the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:25 PM

Jeremy Corbyn has campaigned and argued against the EU all his political life, it is extremely disingenuous to claim that his supposed support now is anything but a vote gathering process amongst the politically ignorant young "millennials".

These young folks are easy meat for the ideologues of the Stalinist Left who are now positioning themselves within the Labour Party.
It's history repeating itself....Remember "Militant" and how they were hounded from power with the help of the Unions, to re-install the status quo in the shape of Blair.

The wheel of fortune spins round and round and I'm sure Mr Corbys will soon be marginalised like Foot and Benn.
In politics, War War is more effective than Jaw Jaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:26 PM

This is where we see the real colours of the EU"
thought it was Spanish police did the damage
Didn't realise the EU had police
Silly me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:29 PM

Actions taken today by Spain's Ministry of the Interior and Guardia Civil Units deployed in Catalonia have now more or less guaranteed that Catalonia WILL now push for independence from Spain. The Basque region and Galicia will then follow suit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:54 PM

"Better a star on the EU flag than an unloved stain on the floor of the community of nations." - David Carter (UK)

Talking of the community of nations Mr. Carter, the largest international organisation in the world is the UN - a meaningless and ineffective "talking shop". Could you tell us what the second largest international organisation in the world is?

I think that you will find that it is "The Commonwealth of Nations" - an organisation established in 1931 by Great Britain and made up of former British Dominions, colonies, dependencies, protectorates and overseas territories IIRC 52 countries in all (Population in 2013 estimate
ed at 2,328,000,000) - so almost double the size of the EU in terms of member states with three times the population of the EU - that's some stain, and in terms of trading potential certainly not one that can be easily ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM

"Didn't realise the EU had police" Never heard of europa?
Silly me

Who am I to argue?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:12 PM

"politically ignorant young "millennials"

As opposed to the politically ignorant old white twats who fucked the world up?

Jog on, old man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:16 PM

ten, nine, eight

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:33 PM

Do you realise, Iains, how extremely silly your 01.09 post looks?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:49 PM

ONly one of mine and all of yours. Not a bad trade my man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM

"Who am I to argue?"
Why should you start now?
We are wellaware that British police were well able to mow down
MINERS' WIVES without the encouragement or assistance of the E.U.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 08:02 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM
"Who am I to argue?"
Why should you start now?
We are wellaware that British police were well able to mow down
MINERS' WIVES without the encouragement or assistance of the E.U.
Jim Carroll

I've read your link. It's necessary to go a long way into it in order to find that despite the appearance of the picture, the woman concerned was NOT hit by a policeman.
Despite what it says early in the article, that the picture is of Lesley Boulton, about to be hit by a policeman.
In Lesley's own words
"The photograph shows a mounted police officer with baton raised about to hit me on the head.
Lesley Boulton goes on to say:    

Lesley Boulton: "There had been some stuff going off before I arrived but I don't know exactly what happened. A few stones going over - nothing major at all. There was a standoff for a while - a few stones went over, and then there was a massive cavalry charge up into the village.

"The ranks of the police were several deep. They opened up and the police did a series of cavalry charges and pushed us back into the village and then blockades were set up - a police blockade at one side of the bridge and a miners' blockade at the other side of the bridge.
"There's a T-junction there and a bus stop. I was attending to a man who was on the ground and seemed to have some chest injuries.

"I was standing trying to attract the attention of a police officer in the road to get him an ambulance. I didn't know how serious it was but I thought it warranted some medical attention.

"As I stood up to attract this policeman's attention, this officer on a police horse just bore down on me."
This was the very moment that John Harris took the picture of Lesley.
"Fortunately for me there was someone standing behind me who was also with the injured miner, who just yanked me out of the way


So, Jim Carroll, are you ready to withdraw your comment?

The so-called 'victim' has stated that they weren't "Mown down" by the police.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 08:14 PM

Jim Carroll
Oh, and your post talks about police attacking "Miners Wives".
By her own statement, Lesley Boulton was not a miner's wife: The Guardian
I joined Sheffield Women Against Pit Closures early in the miners' strike, in 1984. It was made up of miners' wives or, in my case, politically aware women. I was in the anti-nuclear movement, and had been at Greenham Common. We knew a huge fight was coming, and it couldn't be ignored.

Sorry to have to put some actual facts in, but you clearly just repeat populist hearsay.

Again, would you care to withdraw your comments?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:06 AM

So - No Miner's wives mown down - Jim Carroll "Made-up-shit".

Same as with the non-existent piles of dead miners Carroll stated had been massacred at Tonypandy - shot down by armed police under the direct orders of Winston Churchill - more Jim Carroll "Made-up-shit".

Fortunately for the sake of the discussion Nigel, Jim Carroll never seems to read the articles he links to and, as you have just revealed, the article usually proves to be completely at odds with the point that Carroll is trying to make.