BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 05:28 AM

Having seen your links, Teribus, I'll ask again - do you ever read anything but the pro-Brexit, Tory Shitrags?

You need to widen your reading and get an education. And you need, for once in your life, to be honest, cut the thick ex-squaddie horse-shit, and answer the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 05:54 AM

What a silly fellow you are backw...


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/jeremy-corbyn-allies-plot-to-oust-50-labour-mps-87bkrv7l7

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:04 AM

Going to try to kid me it is all false news?
You know what they say: You can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink.
Got a problem swallowing backwoodsman?


https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/07/labour-mps-can-already-be-deselected-will-it-become-easier-do-so


https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/905343/labour-jeremy-corbyn-momentum-deselection


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/07/momentum-dismisses-labour-mp-deselection-hit-list-tories-trail/


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-labour-momentum-haringey-deselection-general-election-a8088326.html


2017/jul/06/labour-mps-critical-of-corbyn-fear-deselection-after-get-on-board-warning

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:16 AM

That may or may not be a fair criticism, but please explain what has it to do with Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM

Latest CBI position

Damn commie organisation...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:22 AM

"A teacher and activist? a bit of a contradiction in terms!"

Blair Peach. A good friend of mine. Look him up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

"However, Momentum issued a clear denial, saying "we will not campaign for the deselection of any MP and will not permit any local Momentum groups to do so. The selection of candidates is entirely a matter for local party members and rightly so".[24]"

From the horses mouth, not a right wing rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:53 AM

Staying in the customs union would also resolve the Irish border issue, subject to agreement with the people who are really setting the agenda, the DUP. Doubtful until the point of brinksmanship is reached, which won't be long coming now.

Interesting take on brexit and that referendum from the Guardian's editorial on 5 December:

In 2016, more than 17 million British people voted to leave the European Union. But, as the journalist Tim Shipman's new book, Fall Out, which covers the political turmoil of the 15 months since the referendum, makes clear, only two British people decided that this meant leaving the European single market, the customs union and the jurisdiction of the European court of justice.

Those two people were Theresa May and her former aide Nick Timothy. These fateful national decisions were their personal interpretations of the vote to leave the EU -- and theirs alone. As Mr Shipman explains, these foundational decisions of the UK's withdrawal strategy were not discussed by Mrs May's cabinet, let alone by parliament. Instead they were simply prime ministerial edicts to the 2016 Conservative conference. Later, they were included in the Tory manifesto for the June 2017 election, in which the party lost its overall majority, Mrs May's leadership was humiliated and Mr Timothy lost his job.

So two now-discredited people decided that the referendum meant that we can't be in the single market and customs union. You can bet your life that, had you asked the electorate what that actually meant before the vote, you'd have got an overwhelmingly clueless response. Theresa May, acting without personal mandate, has certainly "taken back control" of massive decisions that neither the people of this country, parliament nor even her own cabinet were party to. Yet we get all this guff about how undemocratic the EU is. I could say "what a joke," except that this is the most unfunny thing I can think of.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:56 AM

"That may or may not be a fair criticism, but please explain what has it to do with Brexit."

It comes down to the question of: Do Mp's vote according to the whips and their personal preferences or do they follow the wishes of their electorate? As most, if not all MPs are careerists, they sometimes have awkward choices to make as their electorate may deviate dramatically from the official party line. Complex situation because on some issues they are simply their own man.
The link below discusses it. A shame it does not delve deeper.

It is significant that the most depressed areas in the UK voted to leave. These areas would be the historical labour heartlands.
Strange to say I have seen no labour luvvies try to square this particular circle. I further note these labour heartlands coincide with the traditional coal mining areas. Staunch labour here vote stay. Staunch labour supporters on the electoral roll vote leave.
Boys!You have a problem!


http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/mps-voting-personal-or-constituency-preferences/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM

A general search:" map labour areas 2017" gives a few graphics to show some of the above points.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 09:28 AM

Cannot give the French an EU exit referendum, they might want to leave too!


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5294037/Macron-admits-France-probably-voted-quit-EU.html

It is all getting a bit shaky! Foundations on sand and all that.......

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM

I think we should be more concerned about attempts to woo companies in the Financial sector to France than what MAY have happened IF the French were given a referendum vote.

I have already related how the Irish Finance Minister was having talks with companies in the Finance sector.

Yet another potential blow for the UK economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:06 AM

How MPs trade off responsibilities to their parties and their constituents is a deep and long standing one. A decade or so ago I heard a talk by Edwina Currie on how to be a successful MP. Not once, in the hour or so, did she mention her constituents.

So - a problem, right enough. But nothing to do with Brexit.

On the other point, yes, Labour has some interesting problems in the relationship between its voters and the areas which predominately voted to leave. But unless there is an election before March 2019 that will not affect the Brexit terms, which will set the path whoever is in power. So again, I don't think it is really that relevant to post Brexit life. Much more significant is that, for example, Parliament voted against this clause (and apologies for the length):

====
New clause 14—Maintaining individual rights and protections—


“(1) When making any agreement under subsection (2), the Secretary of State shall take steps to ensure that UK citizens enjoy standards of rights and protections equivalent to those enjoyed by citizens of the EU under EU law.


(2) This section applies to—


(a) any agreement between the United Kingdom and the EU which prepares for, or implements, the UK’s withdrawal from the EU;


(b) any international trade agreement—?


(i) between the UK and the EU, or


(ii) between the UK and another signatory which seeks to replicate in full or in part the provisions of an international trade agreement between the EU and the other signatory.


(3) In relation to any agreement under subsection (2), the Secretary of State will maintain the highest standards of transparency.”


This new clause creates a duty for the Government to ensure that individual rights and protections are maintained to a level equivalent to (although not necessarily the same as) those in the EU when making agreements with the EU or international trade agreements.
====

So Parliament voted 'NO' to maintaining equivalent rights for its citizens. And, relating to the first point, there were perhaps 150 MPs in the chamber to listen to the debate, but - I haven't looked up the exact figures - they almost all voted, based on their party's lines. I doubt if many constituents were writing the MPs demanding removal of guaranteed rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:08 AM

" they almost all voted" - I mean almost all 650 MPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:18 AM

It's amazing how the potential hit to our financial services sector has been played down for public consumption when you consider that that sector dwarfs the rest of our economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:50 AM

I periodically have talks with myself about winning the lottery. This does not mean it is going to happen. Business will go where the rewards are greatest, It is as simple as that. Should the EU bring about a uniform taxation system it ia anybodies guess as to where the preferred location WOULD be.
   I would argue the only reason that financial services would relocate from London would be because the EU created a more attractive profit regime. This will need clearly defined nuts and bolts in place before anything will happen.So far all we see is wishful thinking. The EU is also taking a close look at Ireland and it's perceived status as a perceived tax haven. How does the potential closure of that loophole equate with attracting financial services from London. It is total delusion. (I presume this is what we are talking about).

The vote on equal rights had it failed would maintain freedom of movement, refugees and all. The vote was totally in line with the sentiment of the labour heartlands so no conflict occurred between mp's and their electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:52 AM

poor proof reading forgot to cut the double perceived.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 11:03 AM

The clause of ensuring equivalent rights is purely about UK citizens and haa no relevance for freedom of movement for anyone other than a UK citizen. You can easily read the debate about the clause in Hansard and no-one suggested it did.

You can read the reasons for the government rejecting it, but in essence they boil down to, and I quote "could create needless uncertainty for businesses and individuals"

Much better for the citizens to know they have no guarantee of the right, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 11:25 AM

My post, by the way, also is relevant to With so many intangibles being thrown into the air having heated arguments is rather pointless. The entire proposition is in a state of flux and quite honestly having heated arguments over hypothetical scenarios is a waste of time: these are not things that may or may not happen at some time in the future depending on how the negotiations go. These are votes being taken now (last Tuesday to be precise) that are defining the sort of future we will have if we have a negotiated Brexit. It is an assumption, but I think a plausible one, that we would also lose the guaranteed right if we have 'no deal': certainly that would be the default position as it nstands currently.

So these are risks to our rights being decided now as a result of Brexit. To my mind they are worth talking about. Even at this late stage the rights could be protected if the Lords do so and the Commons then accepts the Lord's amendment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 12:19 PM

You can bet your life that, had you asked the electorate what that actually meant before the vote, you'd have got an overwhelmingly clueless response.

No. You just think them stupid because they mostly disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 12:20 PM

DMcG. Having read Hansard I think I would need a legal background to fully understand all the ramifications. As far as I can make out when it comes to rights we default to those established by international agreements and existing British case law. I find it hard to define which would be the superior condition. Time alone will tell.
This is not meant to be an evasive answer, but the subject simply does not lead to yes no answers. Perhaps the existing legislation is more beneficial, perhaps not. Then again only a naive idealist would believe that no negatives are attached to brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 12:38 PM

Thanks for taking the trouble read it. It is not easy reading, I agree, but we would have a better standard of discussion if qe basws it on such things rather than newspapers.

As for: This is not meant to be an evasive answer, but the subject simply does not lead to yes no answers.

Unfoetunately thar is exactly what a division/vote is: yes or no. Agree or not. Leave or Remain. Many things do not "simply lead to yes no answers". And many parliamentarians do not have a legal background either.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 12:39 PM

"Then again only a naive idealist would believe that no negatives are attached to brexit"

Iains, that is the one and only honest comment I have read from the people on your side of this discussion.

Thank you for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 01:15 PM

Raggytash. Remainers also have a similar problem. I doubt anyone is entirely satisfied with the EU and it's proposed plans going forward.
The decision revolves around whether the wished for changes can be achieved inside or outside the bloc. Inside, outside there are flaws a plenty. The posturing on both sides concerning negotiations is verging on a farce. Each party seems determined to stall up to the wire. Not a very edifying experience. Looks like it will be a pyrrhic victory irregardless of who may assume they may have won.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 01:28 PM

Business will go where the rewards are greatest, It is as simple as that.

It is indeed as simple as that but it would be foolish to believe that the rewards can only be measured by short term gain. Do we pay peanuts, employ monkeys and make a quick buck until the bubble bursts of do we look to the long term? Do we make a million in a year and then burn out of do we make half a million a year forever? Do we use up the planet's resources or do we act responsibly and make sure our species survives?

Economics again. Don't believe that every business is just in it For the short term.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 01:45 PM

"The posturing on both sides concerning negotiations is verging on a farce"

Certainly the actions of the present Government can aptly be described as farcical.

It would seem that even those in Government given the task of negotiating the exit of the UK from the EU haven't really got a clue as to the aspirations of their own party, never mind the wishes of the people they are supposed to represent.

Our exit from the EU will have massive implications for decades to come and we are trusting people who seem not to have a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 01:47 PM

Not simply economics Dave, the shareholders must also be kept happy. The profit motive rules supreme and human greed creates the bubbles and fear the ensuing slumps. Morality is not, and cannot ever be a part of the equation in a capitalist system. That fact of life and also the reality that legally corporations are discrete entities both create many of our problems.
Perhaps theoretical economics is a reliable tool, though I very much doubt it. But economics is not the issue, it is capitalism and its fiendish cousin from the darkside called globalism, Sadly they are both unfettered devils that have been unleashed on unsuspecting humanity.
The final chains were broken by Reagan and Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 02:12 PM

"Certainly the actions of the present Government can aptly be described as farcical."

and no doubt the opposition are pure as driven snow!

Labour also have some embarrassing problems, the official line is leave and they would like the opposite. Can they be sure no general election will occur between now and brexit? The actual movers and shakers are also a bone of contention within the party and very few trust momentum.
A fine mess they find themselves in!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 02:16 PM

"Morality is not, and cannot ever be a part of the equation in a capitalist system."

Of course it can. Organic vegetable growers, and farmers who put the welfare of their animals first are still part of the capitalist system. Plenty of capitalists go to lengths lengths to invest only in ethical companies. You can be a capitalist yet still choose to boycott enterprises you regard as unethical.

Keith, if you really think that, even now, the vast majority of the voting public could explain to you what the single market and the customs union are, you're in cloud cuckoo land.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 02:39 PM

The profit motive rules supreme and human greed creates the bubbles and fear the ensuing slumps. Morality is not, and cannot ever be a part of the equation in a capitalist system.

Too cynical Iains. There are responsible capitalists and they are on the increase. I don't think we will see the tipping point by it will happen. Keep up the pressure and it may be sooner.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 03:43 PM

"Organic vegetable growers, and farmers who put the welfare of their animals first are still part of the capitalist system" They are still reliant on massive subsidies to keep solvent and also comprise a very small minority.
"Plenty of capitalists go to lengths lengths to invest only in ethical companies. You can be a capitalist yet still choose to boycott enterprises you regard as unethical."
Plenty would suggest a majority. Totally erroneous I suspect. Similarly a capitalist boycotting unethical investments may well exist but again a minority.
You have to remember that another vital aspect of capitalism is competition( if it cannot be bought out, bankrupted or driven away by tariff barriers). Simplistically if competing on a "level playing field" lowest price wins. Competition will dictate price, location of manufacturing base, or raw materials and hence profitability. Altruistic concerns have scant chance of success in such an environment.
Some may say my interpretation is cynical, but for big business especially, it is realistic. That is the world we live in.
   It is a totally flawed system admittedly, but recent legislation has merely introduced further flaws and greater instabilities to the system. Government seems afraid to dictate to banks, the reverse seems to be the case.
    It really does make you wonder who really calls the shots.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 03:51 PM

Being ethical does not necessarily mean being altruistic. And plenty does not indicate a majority. Dictionaries are available.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 04:13 PM

Getting back to that clause I referenced earlier, and Iains statement it is not a yes no decision. Thinking about it we all have a series of yes/no decisions:

1) do we think this puts existing rights for the ordinary individual at risk or not? (Yes/no)
2) if so, should We contact the MP to make our view known (yes/no)

We agree the chances of it influencing said MP are low. Nevertheless, do you just shrug and let it go?

The same applies to all the other clauses, not just this one. I did not support them all, but most I thought were improvements to the bill.


So what to do? In my case, I wrote earlier in the week and said I had watched the debates but did not see my MP in the chamber. Can he confirm he was there? If not, please summarise what other parliamentary duty he was engaged in and why he considered it more important.

I do not expect anything very productive in response, but it seemed the least I could do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 04:14 PM

and being called shaw does not mean you always have to be a total prat
you patronising little shit!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 05:15 PM

Macron is toying with Theresa May. He talks a nice talk, special relationship, bespoke deal, etc., but he always comes back to his bottom line. It's basically single market (free movement, ECJ, stick to all the trading rules, you get no say), or it's nothing, and that nothing means no deal for our services sector. He's manoeuvring himself, in the teeth of Merkel's difficulties, into the position of main man in Europe. He's strong in his own country and he sees May's weaknesses all too clearly. There's a deal of opportunistic politicking going on!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 08:55 PM

A summary of Labour's state of play from the Observer, backed up with the results of a survey:

Labour supporters press Corbyn on EU
Majority back Britain staying in single market and customs union
by Toby Helm and Michael Savage

Jeremy Corbyn is under huge pressure to shift party policy on Brexit as an exclusive poll for the Observer reveals a substantial majority of existing and potential Labour voters want him to back permanent membership of the EU's single market and customs union.

Four times as many Labour supporters favour that option as oppose it. The survey by Opinium also finds that more than twice as many in this group want Corbyn to support a second referendum on the eventual Brexit deal as reject it.

The poll comes at a time when senior European politicians are signalling that Britain could reverse its decision to leave the EU and warning that there will be no prospect of reaping the benefits of membership from outside the bloc.

Emmanuel Macron will say today on The Andrew Marr Show that he would love to see Britain return, adding: "It depends on you. I do respect this vote, I do regret this vote, and I would love to welcome you again." However, he warns that full access to the single market for the UK's huge financial services industry will be "not feasible".

The CBI is preparing this week to call on the government to abandon the pursuit of global trade deals in favour of long-term EU customs union membership. In the wake of the Observer poll, senior Labour MPs are saying it is no longer credible for a party that is serious about power to overlook the demands of so many trade unions, supporters and business leaders.

The former shadow business secretary, Labour MP Chuka Umunna, said: "It is absolutely vital, as the party of work and social justice, that we have a clear and unequivocal policy to keep the UK in the single market and the customs union.

"When our members, our trade unions, our businesses, Labour voters and potential voters are all giving the Labour party the same clear message that this is what the country needs, it does not make any sense at all to ignore it."

Opinium found that among all potential Labour voters at the next election, 56% want the party to back permanent membership of the single market and customs union, while just 13% think it should remain opposed; 30% had no firm view either way.

Among younger voters, the balance in favour was even clearer: 63% of all "young professionals" who are potential Labour backers were in favour, against 10% who were opposed. Of the "young blue collar workers" who might back Corbyn's party, 61% were in favour of the change against just 4% who were against.

Significantly, even among Labour voters who backed Leave, 37% said they want Corbyn to support permanent single market and customs union membership compared with just 26% who did not.

Some 51% of Labour's potential pool of support backs a second referendum on the final Brexit deal, against 23% who oppose the idea.

Despite mounting disquiet among pro-Remain Labour MPs, Corbyn has so far rejected calls to back staying in the single market and customs union. Labour's current policy is to keep the UK in both only for the duration of a post-Brexit transition of up to four years. After that it would try to negotiate a relationship offering the "exact same benefits" for the UK post-Brexit. Corbyn has also refused to endorse a second referendum.

There's too much strain in Labour at the moment, with the vast majority of supporters not in line with the party leadership. Something's got to change, and I think it will. God knows what Jeremy is waiting for.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 03:45 AM

From: Steve Shaw

Macron is toying with Theresa May. He talks a nice talk, special relationship, bespoke deal, etc., but he always comes back to his bottom line. It's basically single market (free movement, ECJ, stick to all the trading rules, you get no say), or it's nothing, and that nothing means no deal for our services sector. He's manoeuvring himself, in the teeth of Merkel's difficulties, into the position of main man in Europe. He's strong in his own country and he sees May's weaknesses all too clearly. There's a deal of opportunistic politicking going on!

It's such a shame then that the EU has made clear that all the negotiation must be done through their negotiating team (Bernier et al)
Still, Macron has at least been open about the fact that he believes France would vote to leave, if only they were given the opportunity.

He's manoeuvring himself, in the teeth of Merkel's difficulties, into the position of main man in Europe
A little sexist, that comment. "Main person" maybe. Or do you consider that Angela Merkel is currently the "main man"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 03:55 AM

Simplistically if competing on a "level playing field" lowest price wins.

No, best value wins. To use the late great Terry Pratchett's example, do you buy boots for a dollar that last a few months of boots for 10 dollars that last a lifetime? Businesses that work on lowest price rather than value for money are destined for the receivers office.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 04:54 AM

Steve,
Keith, if you really think that, even now, the vast majority of the voting public could explain to you what the single market and the customs union are, you're in cloud cuckoo land.

The Far Left has always been contemptuous about the people you called "plebs" because they refuse to elect you.
I do not share your contempt for the people of this country.

A summary of Labour's state of play from the Observer, backed up with the results of a survey:

It was a survey, of "potential Labour voters" (?) conducted for the Observer, by something called "Opinium."

Not very impressive, and according to you they do not know what the single market and Customs Union are anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:10 AM

Dave I would have thought it implicit in the understanding that best price equals best value, with all other things being equal. However if you wish to emphasize value I will not argue with you. I think the basic premise still stands.(dotting every i and crossing every t on a forum like this could become very tedious when presenting arguments and I am afraid I do not have the same patience and thoroughness shown by Teribus when it comes to constructing arguments - as you may have noticed)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:19 AM

Sadly, Iains, best price does not always equal best value and I think that distinction is important. It ties in very much with your statement Morality is not, and cannot ever be a part of the equation in a capitalist system. When best value means that you can sustain the business, the partners, the customers, the suppliers and the planet them morality becomes an important part of the equation.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:24 AM

Main person my arse, Nigel. "Main man" is a frequent expression. "Main person" is not. Now are you going to use you presence here today to dedicate yourself to further nitpicking and stalking, or alternatively would you care to comment on Iain's remark that he fears the EU is taking us down the path of Hitlerism? Remember that, Nigel? You nitpicked a trifle of mine, ignored that remark of his in the same post then told us you didn't support him? Like hell, Nigel. Go and find something useful to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:26 AM

A very silly post from you to start the week, Keith. Go on, cheer us up. Give us something from the Mail. Or maybe Guido.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:28 AM

Britain should prepare for a much more economically optimistic 2018 because global growth is better than predicted.

Britain's growth forecasts are likely to be upgraded as China, the US and Europe show increased activity.
The gloomy predictions of the possible effects of Brexit are likely to be "dwarfed" by the more positive figures, Lord O'Neill the former Conservative Treasury minister and Remain supporter.
added.

"I certainly wouldn't have thought the UK economy would be as robust as it currently seems," Lord O'Neill, who is on the board of the Northern Powerhouse Partnership, told me.
"That is because some parts of the country, led by the North West [of England], are actually doing way better than people seem to realise or appreciate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:29 AM

That was BBC today Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:42 AM

Very nice. Keep looking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:58 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:24 AM
. . .alternatively would you care to comment on Iain's remark that he fears the EU is taking us down the path of Hitlerism? Remember that, Nigel? You nitpicked a trifle of mine, ignored that remark of his in the same post then told us you didn't support him?

I didn't comment on that at the time because I didn't read that.
Is selective misquoting now another of your tools? And suddenly commenting on something three pages earlier to make it hard to check as well?

Iains: The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler. Some of us are concerned the un-elected bureaucrats might be toddling off down the road to a similar nightmare.

"A similar nightmare" is not the same as "Taking us down the path to Hitlerism". Although that might be your understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 06:08 AM

Iains, there are three basic things (there are other considerations) that a professional buyer or contract manager looks for when deciding how (and with whom) to award a contract. They are Quality, Price and Service.

Having been both a buyer and a contracts manager trust me, price alone does not rule the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 06:23 AM

I should have added that shareholders are only part of the picture. More and more companies are warming to the idea of satisfying the requirements of all stakeholders. This includes shareholders, management, employees, suppliers and anyone else that has a stake in the business.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 06:25 AM

Several other phrases in that BBC report Steve, things like:

"That's the argument of Lord Jim O'Neill, the former Conservative Treasury minister and Remain supporter" So not at all biased then.

"He said Britain's growth forecasts are likely to be upgraded as China, the US and Europe show increased activity" So much of the rest of the world is also increasing.

""As well as this crucial fact, the rest of the world is also doing way better than many people would have thought a year ago, so it makes it easier for the UK." So the rest of the world has an improved forecast.

"A recent assessment by Cambridge Econometrics for the Mayor of London suggested that growth across the UK could be on average 3% lower by 2030 than it would have been if Britain remained within the EU's single market and customs union." A counter-argument from an organisation using robust, empirical evidence.

""Now, my own view is if we go for a really hard Brexit or a no-deal Brexit, we'll probably suffer more than that 3%." So there will be a hit.

"But if it is only 3%, what's going on with the rest of the world - helping us - and with productivity improving, that will easily dwarf a 3% hit over 13 years, easily." Two things here, one an assumption that the rest of the world will help us and two the recovery period is 13 (THIRTEEN) years.

"Because of course, in principle, I share the views of many that Brexit is a really weird thing for the UK to impose on itself from an economic perspective." Even O'Neill thinks Brexit is damaging economically

"He said that the "Brexiteers are going to be like the cat with the cream. They're like 'there you go, told you so', which of course is ridiculous". Well he got that bit right.

"Lord O'Neill said that major sectors of the economy that are closely linked to the EU, such as car manufacturing and pharmaceuticals, were still facing significant threats because of the government's proposals to leave the customs union and the single market." Aha, so everything in the garden is not so rosy.

"Virtually every major place I can think of, [with the] possible exception of us, are all sharing in it at the same time. World trade - just when everybody's trying to write it off - has actually risen sharply." So the rest of the world is doing quite well, but we're not.