BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

As a mental midget that does not know his place, I certainly do not require or expect backup to support my arguments .Meanwhile a happy toon for the pack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rblYSKz_VnI

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:19 AM

Aw Raggywhen it comes to being publicly rebuked you should look at the number of times your pals have been admonished

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM

"As a mental midget that does not know his place, I certainly do not require or expect backup to support my arguments."

Intriguing. Is this a classic example of a dangling modifier or is it a man lamenting his own mental deficiencies?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:54 AM

I am not aware of any other poster being rebuked publicly you alone enjoy that particular "accolade" in fact you seem to revel in it.

No doubt if others have been so rebuked you will inform us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 10:35 AM

The only problem I can see with Teribus' posts is that they consistently refute made-up-shit and ideological claptrap with facts. It seems that there are some who are unable to handle that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 11:24 AM

You mean like the facts that Salazar, Pinochet and Franco weren't fascist dictators? Those kinds of facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM

Ehmmmmmm ...... Shaw where and how did Pinochet get put in the mix in the detailed discussions relating to Franco and Salazar? Or is that just a deliberate misrepresentation on your part. Pinochet it appears was part of a Military Junta, not political in any way, bit difficult to be a fascist without political backing isn't it? Both Mussolini and Hitler were the founders and leaders of their respective political parties founded on national socialist principles and it was through those parties that they gained power Mussolini by threatening a coup (The March on Rome) and Hitler by using the electoral process in place in Germany at the time.

Still no answer as to when Pinochet was Margaret Thatcher's mentor? Still can't bring yourself to confirm that that little assertion, apologies, beautiful assertion of Jom's was just more "Made-Up-Shit" and complete and utter bollocks to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:30 PM

You do not get to ask me to justify what someone else has said. I'm really not interested in doing that. The rest of your post is just fluff. You think that three people universally regarded as fascists, except by fellow fascists, are not fascists. Weird.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:45 PM

"three people universally regarded as fascists"

"Universally regarded"?? Where on earth did you get that clap-trap from Shaw? Or do you mean universally regarded as fascists by Steve Shaw? - Fortunately what you regard as being what doesn't really amount to a pile of beans. I mean you regard Jeremy Corbyn and Momentum controlled Labour as suitable material for Prime Minister and next Government of the UK respectively - it is more generally accepted that that is complete and utter bollocks - fair indication of how "spot-on" what you regard things as being.

Franco's government in Spain was a military dictatorship that came to power with the help of two leaders who WERE fascists. Doesn't make Franco a fascist.

Salazar's government in Portugal jailed fascists as enemies of the state and did everything it could to suppress national socialism (Fascism) in Portugal - Not really typical "fascist" behaviour is it?

Pinochet was part of a Military Junta and completely non-political.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 05:48 PM

You really are not of this world any more, are you? Heheh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 05:57 PM

"You really are not of this world any more, are you? Heheh"

What a brilliant, and insightful response, I think this guy must have been a headmaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 06:07 PM

Well what response is even remotely possible to a bloke who says that El Caudillo wasn’t a fascist?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 02:43 AM

In your opinion Shaw, most likely in the opinion of ideologically driven socialists and communists, but NOT in the opinion of political historians and academics who have studied the man, his times and the period. NOT in the opinion of the Church or the followers of the Roman Catholic religion (I'd imagine that that was quite a number in a country like Spain). Two sides fought the Spanish Civil War - the Republicans (Leftist; Communist; anti-church) and the Nationalists (Conservative; Monarchist; Catholic Church). Although Franco's main foreign allies were fascist (Italy) and national socialist (Germany) the Falange in Spain was national syndicalist, the three should not be confused as being the same thing. As with most things in the real world Shaw this is a great deal more complex than your simplistic political ideology can cope with. I'll go with the experts who have studied the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:25 PM

You need help. Seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:37 PM

Oh I don't think so Shaw - as far as topics historical go, you just need a bit of schooling - this time actually do some work and listen, leaving your socialist ideology at the door before you start.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:02 PM

pinochet non-political? that is weird . so why would he and the americans object to the leftist allende government? why do the americans object to any positive system in the americas and globally? dictators - fascist or not- are ok as long as they trade with the neo liberal americans.....actually i can't be arsed to go on. shock doctrine/ smash the state/ chicago boys ultra right wing capitalist ideology started with pinochet and onto reagan and thatcher and so on to the death throes of that sick and depressing system we see today.

but that isn't why i came on here.....brexit? not going to happen is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:10 PM

No, seriously. You do need help. It's been obvious for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:14 PM

But let us study the march of Carroll aided and abetted by Shaw and his pals:

1: It started with Shaw wondering how the good people of would view him and his Euros once the UK leaves the EU. My opinion was that he, and his Euros would as welcome as they were before (Mind you if Corbyn gets into No.10 the pound will tank so much that if Shaw drags himself to Madeira he'll hardly have any Euros at all - he could give lectures on "flocking grouse")

2: I mentioned that the Anglo-Portuguese alliance was the oldest treaty in existence which prompted Carroll into a rant about Salazar being a fascist. That led to the revelation that Salazar actually jailed fascists in Portugal so all of a sudden Salazar was dropped and Franco and Pinochet appeared on the scene.

3: We were then all astounded to here that Augusto Pinochet was the mentor of Margaret Thatcher would you believe (I didn't and don't) But neither Carroll, Shaw or any of the other "usual suspects" could pinpoint at what time this mentoring commenced. After repeatedly failing to provide that information Pinochet rather embarrassingly dropped out of the equation, much like Salazar - So now we are left with Franco and fortunately it would appear that Shaw is running out of steam on that one as well.

Fransico Franco: A conservative and a monarchist, he opposed the abolition of the monarchy and the establishment of a socialist secular republic in 1931. Franco won the Spanish Civil War that started in 1936 as a result of a failed coup by the military and from 1939 he pursued a policy of neutrality and isolationism. He established a military dictatorship, which he defined as a totalitarian state. Communists and left-wing critics called his regime "fascist", but academics typically categorize it as conservative and authoritarian. The regime changed its policies in the mid 1950s and due to those changes Spain became the second-fastest growing economy in the world between 1959 and 1973, just behind Japan. This broadly based economic boom was known as "The Spanish Miracle". During the 1960s, the wealthy classes of Francoist Spain experienced further increases in wealth, particularly those who remained politically faithful, while a burgeoning middle class became visible as the "economic miracle" progressed. International firms established factories in Spain, State-owned firms like the car manufacturer SEAT, truck builder Pegaso and oil refiner INH, massively expanded production. By the time of Franco's death in 1975, Spain still lagged behind most of Western Europe but the gap between its per capita GDP and that of the leading Western European countries had narrowed greatly, and the country had developed a large industrialised economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM

From: peteaberdeen - PM
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:02 PM
but that isn't why i came on here.....brexit? not going to happen is it?

If it doesn't happen it is the biggest failure of democracy in the UK.

You may not want Brexit, but I, and the majority of those who were prepared to vote, do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM

Probably not, Pete. We live in hope. By the way, whilst I know that wars are dirty,
perhaps Bill should look up how many deaths Franco was responsible for in the six years AFTER the end of the Civil War. While he's at it, he could look at the manner of those deaths. Make sure you consult the right experts, Bill. When you've done the exercise, perhaps you would come back and tell us whether you still think that Franco wasn't a fascist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM

as far as the pinochet being thatcher's 'mentor' thing goes....as i understand it (mostly from naomi klein's 'shock doctrine' ) milton friedman and the 'chicago school of economics came up with the idea of 'disaster capitalism' where ruthless tactics were to be employed to 'repair' 'damage' done in countries such as chile that had tried to institute progressive change and a more egalitarian, state control based society. (just think of the damage being done to destabilise and run down our NHS these days - so that the 'only' answer is more privatisation) anyway, the shock doctrine was first used by pinochet with covert assistance from the CIA and then a strict crackdown on any dissent and the implementation of a fundamentalist monetarist regime. while pinochet may not, strictly speaking, have been a 'mentor' to thatcher and reagan they wholeheartedly bought into the sort of tactics used in chile to destabilise a progressive state, privatise and confront unions and other groups interested in equality, liberalism (in the old fashioned sense) or socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:32 PM

brexit is not going to happen because there is hardly anyone worth listening to in parliament with the interest, ability or application to take the shaky concept forward. many are opposed and most of the rest are ambivalent. i'd say that apart from a sizable minority of tory backbenchers everyone is embarrassed and just waiting for the thing to die a slow death before someone has the guts to apologise to our european friends and we can all get back to proper business instead of obsessing about something that no-one really understands.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:37 PM

brexit? not going to happen is it?

Wanna bet?

Anyone seen as trying to prevent Brexit from happening politically will be toast as far as the electorate of the UK is concerned. The way the EU Commissioners and the Germans and the French are posturing it would not surprise me at all if we opt for The "No Deal is better than a Bad Deal" Option In that scenario the EU loses one of it's best customers and the "Divorce Settlement" the EU keeps harping on about is reduced to zero. If they then wish to pile tariffs on our goods, we pile tariff's on theirs as they sell more to us we profit from their short-sightedness, their businesses hurt more than ours as we are free to trade with the world they are not. Meanwhile they have to fund the shortfall created by us leaving, problems in Greece have not gone away, Macron's honeymoon in France is well and truly over, Merkel will be put firmly in the picture by German industry and nobody has got a clue what will happen in Spain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:47 PM

i can't see anyone actively trying to prevent it happening, they will just get bored of the complexity of it. no-one is scared of upsetting the UKIPs anymore. brexit has always been about divisions in the tory party more than anything and now - really, who cares what happens to the tory party? it's funny of course, but is getting very boring too.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:49 PM

I'm with you in sentiment, Pete, though perhaps a tad less optimistic. The easy slogan is that no brexit would result from a democratic sellout. I know it isn't like that. But easy slogans ("take back control") have a habit of winning the day. I have a nasty feeling that we may have to rely on cockup after cockup by the shower that's running our show and who the EU is laughing at daily. Mind you, that's quite likely...

Pinochet regime? Democracy overthrown, thousands killed, thousands disappeared, hundreds of thousands exiled, no dissidence tolerated. So not a fascist then. Just a bit of a conservative chappie really...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:50 PM

Brexit itself is the biggest 'failure of democracy' in the UK's political history.

A fatally flawed referendum which...

a) required only a simple majority, rather than the standard 60/40 usually required in 'once-and-for-all' referendums of this kind,

b) was only 'advisory' - clearly stated in the Referendum Bill and its supporting documentation - but treated as 'compulsory.

c) was campaigned by the 'Leave' team on the basis of bare-faced lies (£350 million a week for the NHS (there isn't and won't be), stop immigration (we can't),'Take Back Control' which we never gave up, yadda yadda).

The one and only reason the government are driving us over the precipice of a Hard Brexit, with no agreement in place, is so that a small cabal of immensely wealthy Tories and Tory Party donors (who, in fact, control Tory policy, despite several of them not even being British, or resident here) can avoid being subject to the new EU Tax-Avoidance/Evasion Regulations which come into force in May 2019.

And, as always, it'll be the ordinary people who will suffer the consequences, whilst the rich get even richer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:52 PM

Excellent resume of the current situation and outlook for the future Teribus. T agree 100% and would be delighted to see our negotiators pull out completely
The "running in" period is quite unnecessary and a sop to the obstructionists.

"Walk away Renee"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:30 PM

Good heavens Shaw!!!! Just looked!!!! And the similarities between what Franco did to secure his regime and country against reactionary counter-revolution and what Lenin and Stalin did are amazing!!! Does that make him a Communist???

We have the Parliamentary democracy we enjoy today because of actions taken by Oliver Cromwell who ruled as a complete and utter despot - yet he is known as the "Father of British Democracy" that is why his statue stands outside the House of Commons, while the statues of other notables stand in Parliament Square.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:38 PM

Backwardsman, I believe that Cameron gave the solemn undertaking that he and his government would abide by and act in accordance with the wishes of the electorate with regard to the EU referendum - that made it binding.

ALL the major political parties WITHOUT EXCEPTION campaigned for the REMAIN side. ALL thought that there was not the remotest chance on earth that LEAVE would prove to be the majority vote. They were wrong.

I will say this for you - you have perfect 20x20 hindsight.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:17 PM

I don't claim 20-20 hindsight, and certainly far less than that when predicting the future, but this dream of all sorts of beneficial deals with the rest of the world seems very unlikely to me. Some runes people might like to consider are things like these Financial Times articles of October 5, 2017:

* Trump opposes EU-UK agri-deal in blow to Brexit plans
* Tariffs and energetic protection of US trade is the American way

(The second article makes the point that it is not just Trump who thinks this way)

The Financial Times runs a paywall scheme, so I can't simply link to the articles, but the titles are clear enough, and if you are interested enough I am sure you can find a physical copy or join for a modest fee.

Back in July when Trump said he saw a great trade deal with Britain, he did not necessarily mean we would like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:23 PM

Wrong again, Terriblyboring. The briefing paper on the Bill states quite clearly that the result will be advisory only. It is not within the PM's power to amend it unilaterally, it requires Parliamentary approval.

Cameron took it upon himself to ignore those provisions. The High Court ruled in November that a referendum can only ever be advisory. Therefore it was never within Cameron's (or May's) power to declare it binding. They chose to accept the result, they were not bound by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:27 PM

I think the dream of the Brexiteers of getting 'great trade deals' with the US has been dealt a serious blow by the imposition of a 300% tariff on the aircraft which Delta were to purchase from Bombardier in NI, applied for by Boeing, who don't even build the class of aircraft that Delta ordered from Bombardier.

The Shape of Things to Come.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 06:30 PM

Great analysis, John, especially in your 03.50 pm post. The chickens are truly coming home to roost now that May and her sorry team have shown themselves to be thoroughly incompetent and are, in consequence, the laughing stock of the whole EU. Be very afraid. We're stuffed.

Billybully boy, I'm totally not interested in your yah-boo schoolyard comparisons between known fascists such as Franco and Pinochet and Stalin/Lenin (for whom I have no time whatsoever). That's your attempt to fudge. Look at Franco and Pinochet on their own terms. Both murderous authoritarians (have you looked at those numbers yet?) who brooked no opposition. The epitome of fascism. Whatever Stalin/Lenin got up to does not impact on that at all. You don't get to justify atrocities merely by highlighting someone else's. You don't let off little Jimmy for stealing little Maisie's crisps just because little Johnny looked up little Amy's skirt.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 02:00 AM

A but Shaw the point you are missing is that the following were all leaders of the political parties that they used to propelled them to the positions of power they held:

Lenin
Stalin
Mussolini
Hitler

The same cannot be said of:

Oliver Cromwell
Salazar
Franco
Pinochet

They all did what they thought they had to do to secure and save their countries from what they saw as an internal threat, only the ones detailed in the first group felt the need to export their violence and ideals outside of their own borders.

On the EU referendum Backwardsman:

Gordon Brown made a promise to the electorate of the UK regarding a referendum on the EU and reneged on it.

David Cameron made a promise to the electorate of the UK regarding a referendum on the EU and honoured it.

Of the two I prefer by far the type of politicians who honour their promises to the electorate while in power - there is a basic honesty and integrity demonstrated in doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 03:21 AM

I know threads go where they will, but all this is a long way from Post Brexit life in the UK. Talking about the past is easier, even if opinions differ, but it can be a way of avoiding talking about the future, which is after the point of this thread. So let's some comments about the future: who will be the Conservative leader in six months time? How will that affect Post Brexit life, if at all? Is the US position on the aeroplanes and agribusiness a one off or will they take advantage of the UK? Let's have some solid predictions that we can look at a year after separation where we can say whether they were right or wrong. The vaguaries of Nostrodamus are unsuitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 03:21 AM

Hmmm, a standard response from Pte. Parts - present him with accurate facts in the face of his nonsensical bluster, and he starts moving the goalposts around in a vain effort to 'win'.

Sorry, squaddie - in the immortal words of your dopey mate from Hertford, "You lose".

Now fuck off and Blanco your puttees, or paint the coal white, or whatever they give thick squaddies to fill their time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 03:57 AM

See your contribution is down at your consistent and dismally low level Backwardsman. What bluster? Please point it out. You won't because everything I have contributed to this thread, every detail I have given has been factually correct. The "fact" that you cannot challenge or refute anything I have said is your problem not mine and I guess that you will have to live with that, absolutely no skin off my nose at all. If you wish to demonstrate to the world and it's dog that you are an ill-informed, offensive, inarticulate oaf please feel free. You are only letting yourself down.

Addressing DmcG's post re - comments about the future:

1: "who will be the Conservative leader in six months time?"

Unless the Parliamentary Conservative Party want to be out of office in quick time the leader of the Conservative Party in six months time will be Theresa May. But strictly according to the comments you requested in six months time we will still be in the EU.

2: "How will that affect Post Brexit life, if at all?"

Not one iota.

3: "Is the US position on the aeroplanes and agribusiness a one off or will they take advantage of the UK?"

Definitely one offs and even they are not cast in stone. Things change all the time. They will take advantage of us just as much as we will take advantage of them, that is the nature of ANY trading agreement. One thing though that is certain Post-Brexit - The UK will manage to negotiate a trade deal with ANY country quicker than the 27 remaining countries of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:02 AM

If you say the referendum result was only advisory, then what do you think the outcome would have been had it been ignored? Do you not think a Catalonian outcome on steroids might have been an expected outcome?
What is the point of a democratic vote if the result is ignored, or is democracy for the remainders different to that of the leavers.
The post above is a typical example of remainders having run out of any kind of rational argument-so once again go all out to have the thread cancelled.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:14 AM

. They will take advantage of us just as much as we will take advantage of them, that is the nature of ANY trading agreement. 

I would put it differently: They will take ATTEMPT to advantage of us just as much as we will ATTEMPT to take advantage of them

Which of you succeeds is down to your relative strength. So one side could be on the losing side most of the time. It is not a case of it all balancing out in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:22 AM

Be afraid Brexiteers, be very afraid.


This lady is not for turning?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM

No Iains, I don't say the referendum was advisory, the Referendum Bill itself says it was advisory only, and this was ratified by the High Court judgment in November.

Unfortunately, although anyone who cared to actually read the Bill would have been aware of it, it was not made clear to the electorate that it was 'advisory only', and the problem was compounded when the idiot Cameron made a promise which was not within his power to make. No politician, even the PM, can override a Bill passed by Parliament - sovereignty rests with Parliament, not with the PM.

Had the advisory nature of the Referendum been made absolutely clear prior to the vote, and given the tiny majority in the result - not far from a dead-heat - I can see no reason why there should have been a 'Catalonian outcome on steroids'.

And, of course, the terms of the referendum were seriously flawed. Had the idiot Cameron couched the Referendum Bill in the standard terms of reference for a referendum in the UK - i.e. requiring a 60/40 majority rather than a simple majority - the result would have been a victory for the Remain campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:46 AM

ROTFLMAO! I missed that last one, Pte Parts.

So, having been presented with facts which, as usual, you fail to respond properly to, and moving the goalposts and being called out on that piece of deceit, you now try to play the victim in a vain effort to secure the high moral ground.

I don't need to say any more - everyone on this forum knows you, they know your MO, they know you for what you are.

I quote your henchman again..."You lose".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:09 PM

I'd love to know what facts I was presented with Backwardsman - I have re-read the posts and the only thing I was presented with were opinions.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to which of those opinions you regard as being facts. I know that you will not do this, you and your pals never, ever back up the ludicrous statements that you tend to make.

Please don't say the fact that the referendum wasn't binding - Had ANYBODY in the political establishment of the UK in any of the MAJOR Parties ignored the result of the EU Referendum there would have been an uproar that would have wakened the dead and that Party would have ceased to exist at the very next election - every politician in the UK has acknowledged that as being the case which Is why the triggering of Article 50, and everything to do with Brexit has gone through Parliament as easily as it has. Get used to it Backwards - we are leaving the EU.

Pte Parts, how droll how long did it take you come up with that one? Oh of course, it's not yours at all is it, probably copied from someone else, who does have an original thought in their head. Way off target in any case Backwards - I was never in the Army and I was never a Squaddie.

As for moving goalposts? That was your pals Shaw and Carroll, but it didn't do them any good. What piece of deceit are you referring to?

DMcG - 08 Oct 17 - 04:14 AM - I'd tend to agree, more or less, but nothing is that clear cut and the process is one of flexible give and take as time goes by. Doesn't alter the truth of the point that the UK will ratify international trade agreements far quicker than the 27 member state EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:17 PM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM
No Iains, I don't say the referendum was advisory, the Referendum Bill itself says it was advisory only, and this was ratified by the High Court judgment in November.

Not quite. The high court made clear that the referendum was only advisory as the Act setting it up did not state that it would be legally binding. Although the lack of such a statement meant that the referendum was not legally binding, that does not match up with your claim that the Referendum Bill itself says it was advisory only

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM

Doesn't alter the truth of the point that the UK will ratify international trade agreements far quicker than the 27 member state EU.

Since it is a single voice rather than 27, almost certainly that's right. But a poor agreement entered into quickly is not as good as a better one entered into slowly. So I would say negotiating strength is more important than speed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:44 PM

How an we negotiate terms with people who have no wish to negotiate?
The rules of the EU are set in stone and it was always going to be the case that we leave unilaterally or sell out the people who voted to leave and won the referendum.
Not only do the EU not want to negotiate in a meaningful way beneficial to both parties, but they simply cannot allow us to leave with a reasonable deal.
The UK will never countenance any return to "Free movement" and that policy is integral to the survival of the EU.

We will have no option after the posturing, other to walk away into a better and more democratic future.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:04 PM

We are either shackled to a very "protectionist" trading block consisting of 27 countries with an extremely sluggish economy where we buy more from them than they do from us. Or we trade with the rest of the world, where in certain areas their growth rates far exceed the EU.

Switzerland and Singapore have concluded more foreign trade deals in the past three decades than the EU. You seem to approach this as though all was well within the EU - nothing could be further from the truth. Why do you automatically assume any deal we make will be bad? Doesn't make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:23 PM

Why do you automatically assume any deal we make will be bad? Doesn't make sense.

I don't. But nor do I assume a deal will automatically be good. And the little evidence we have so far is not encouraging.   One of the Financial Times articles I referred to was also published in the Irish Times (which rather makes a mess of their paywall ideas, but that's not my problem). Here is an extract:

"But the US joined other major agricultural exporters including Argentina, Brazil and New Zealand in signing a letter sent last week to the EU and UK’s WTO ambassadors objecting to the plan to split the quotas that cover everything from New Zealand butter and lamb to US poultry and wheat."

So it is not just the US who will be twisting arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:38 PM

Our economic growth and our productivity is a damn sight more sluggish than the main players in tbe EU and we haven’t even started yet.