BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:23 AM

There is a difference between an opinion which accepts it may be mistaken but brings all the data in it can (such as forecasts and analyses and statements from businesses and other governments) in an attempt to be as confident of its correctness as possible, and an opinion which admits no doubt and offers no evidence.

Yes, and that is how I confirmed my belief that voting Leave was the best thing to do.
I imagine you would also say that that is how you decided to vote Remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:19 AM

Do the nuances matter a damm? An opinion is merely an opinion. Nothing more, nothing less!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:11 AM

There is a difference between an opinion which accepts it may be mistaken but brings all the data in it can (such as forecasts and analyses and statements from businesses and other governments) in an attempt to be as confident of its correctness as possible, and an opinion which admits no doubt and offers no evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:56 AM

38% is a fact, not an argument. Get over it.

No, 38% is not a fact. It is some form of numerical expression.
If you wish to relate that 38% to something, it may well give factual information, but on its own it remains a numerical expression.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:42 AM

Steve,
Two years gone, nine months to go, no progress, still talking about no deal, major manufacturers demurring, no answer for the border issue that leavers scarcely seemed to have thought of pre-referendum. Oh yes, those 38% made "the right decision" all right, didn't they? Let's have the "reasoning" behind that sage point of view, eh? That's the whole trouble with all you leavers. Little England sailing bravely off into mid-Atlantic replaced all reasoning.

Right decision my arse! And I challenge you to support Stanron's assertion that the country made the RIGHT decision

People here are just asserting their opinions.
Only history can decide who is right.
Until we have left there is no way of knowing.
As of now we do not even know what the deal will be, so stop being so abusive to people who dare to hold a different opinion to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:35 AM

Not on a 'whim' but in the belief that the future of the UK should not be dictated by the EU.
If you had read the rest of my response you would have seen that I went on to say: "Many of us (I believe) wanted to get out of the EU long before those three started pontificating".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:25 AM

That pre-supposes that those who voted leave did so in response to the arguments of Farage, Johnson & Gove.

No it doesn't. Those that voted leave must have agreed with those arguments as they were the ones put forward. Either that or they simply voted on a whim. Surely not???

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:21 AM

I am not upset. I am a tad disappointed that the majority of people that voted fell for the fallacious arguments put by the likes of Farage, Johnson and Gove to put their own prejudices above the well being of everyone else.
That pre-supposes that those who voted leave did so in response to the arguments of Farage, Johnson & Gove. Many of us (I believe) wanted to get out of the EU long before those three started pontificating.

Do you also believe that those who voted remain only did so because of the fallacies put forward by 'Project Fear'?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:50 AM

I am not upset. I am a tad disappointed that the majority of people that voted fell for the fallacious arguments put by the likes of Farage, Johnson and Gove to put their own prejudices above the well being of everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:47 AM

38% is a fact, not an argument. Get over it. .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:46 AM

And I challenge you to support Stanron's assertion that the country made the RIGHT decision (and that I should get over it). Give me the reasoning behind that statement of certainty. Tell me what Good Things have come from the decision to leave and what Good Things are definitely still to come. I said definitely. That's what he's saying: the country made the RIGHT decision. Tell me how you think he knows that. He didn't say possibly, maybe, probably or hopefully. This is supposedly a reasoned discussion, so let's hear the reasoning behind his certainties, please. I suppose I shouldn't hold my breath. I have tall hedges to cut in this heat. I may get bad-tempered later on. Get over it. Maybe in these reasoned discussions we should end every post, patronisingly, with "get over it."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:41 AM

It is a long and winding road! But has been travelled repeatedly and the fallacious argument rebutted innumerable times.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:36 AM

38%

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:35 AM

I presume you are a tad upset people had the temerity to vote to leave?(and won!)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:31 AM

Two years gone, nine months to go, no progress, still talking about no deal, major manufacturers demurring, no answer for the border issue that leavers scarcely seemed to have thought of pre-referendum. Oh yes, those 38% made "the right decision" all right, didn't they? Let's have the "reasoning" behind that sage point of view, eh? That's the whole trouble with all you leavers. Little England sailing bravely off into mid-Atlantic replaced all reasoning. Still, never mind. I'm sure Trump will give us all those nice tariff-free trade deals we're hoping for.

Right decision my arse!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:12 AM

Nothing abusive there Steve.
No-one called you a nasty name so why do you resort to it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:09 AM

Another juicy extract from Stanron's contribution to this "reasoned discussion:"

"The nation got the RIGHT answer. Get over it."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:57 AM

"For once, correct" forms no part of any "reasoned discussion" I've ever experienced.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:47 AM

Do we need abusive terms like "git?"
Why resort to it in what should be a reasoned discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:36 AM

"For once, correct"

Once more than you ever are. Patronising git.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:18 AM

Pedant Steve,
The referendum was not an election.

Delete "Your reasoning would invalidate every election ever held! "
Insert Your reasoning applied to elections would invalidate any ever held!"

DMcG,
All you really mean is it gave the answer you agree with.

And all your criticisms just mean you disagree the answer.
Too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 03:24 AM

Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else, Stanron, knows if they got the right answer. I am not even sure how we would decide what the right answer was. It is definitely not as simple as maximising trade regardless of the impact on citizens.

All you really mean is it gave the answer you agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 02:48 AM

INTERESTING REVELATION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 09:44 PM

For once, correct. The referendum was not an election. It was a referendum on whether or not to leave the European Union. The nation got the RIGHT answer. Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 06:46 PM

The referendum was not an election. This confusion that routinely arises during discussions of the two processes' outcomes is unhelpful and is based on a false premise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 04:16 PM

More substantial will of the people than ever expressed in any vote in British history for anything.
Your reasoning would invalidate every election ever held!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 04:08 PM

With just a 37% vote (across the electorate) for Brexit there is no way anyone can claim it has a majority, or is the 'will of the people'. 52% of voters wanted to leave, but over 16m voters didn't. May cannot keep saying it is a substantial will of the people of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 04:04 PM

Not a unicorn?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 01:06 PM

- and it really was a kitten after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 12:53 PM

DMcG,
I seem to remember that there were a lot of leavers before the vote saying that German car manufacturers would all be pressuring the EU to fit in with whatever Britain wanted.

Odd, that. Must have dreamt it.


You did. We might have said that German car manufacturers want a free trade deal, and they do.
They no doubt are pressuring the EU to agree one, as we said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 03:07 PM

"So Boris Johnson has urged the prime minister to deliver a “full British Brexit”."

HE PROBABLY MEANT "FULL BREAKFAST"

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 02:27 PM

So Boris Johnson has urged the prime minister to deliver a “full British Brexit”.

I wish he would elaborate what he means. A “full British Brexit even if that should end up splitting the UK”-kind of Brexit, which neither Keith nor Nigel want, but would accept if it came to it?

A “full British Brexit even if it turns out Airbus are not bluffing and we do lose tens of thousands of jobs and £1.7billion in tax revenues”-kind of Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 01:17 PM

ANOTHER FINE MESS STANLEY

DID YOU SEE THE SIZE OF THAT DEMO?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:24 PM

I seem to remember that there were a lot of leavers before the vote saying that German car manufacturers would all be pressuring the EU to fit in with whatever Britain wanted.

Odd, that. Must have dreamt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:23 PM

"Weer taking are cuntry back", Raggy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:20 PM

So now BMW along with Airbus are seeking some clear information about post Brexit in the UK.

There is a distinct possibilty that both companies could move their operations elsewhere with the possible loss of 22,000 jobs.

Is this the rosy future that Brexiteers promised us?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:38 AM

The latest statements from Airbus seem to be somewhat similar to my stance: They have obligations to their shareholders and other 'stakeholders'. That's it. They have no interest in the UK, or pro-Brexit or anti-Brexit except in so far as it affects the shareholders. Obviously, the less change, the lower their costs of adapting, so their most likely stance would be 'stay as we are', but their main obligation at the moment is to convince their shareholders that they are ready and prepared for all eventualities. Which they are doing. Moreover, while it might suit the government to play brinkmanship all the way to March 2019 with the deal-or-no-deal undecided - and if we 'no-deal' that means no transition - that does not suit companies that have to live with the consequences. So they may well begin the transitions based on what is said in October. Meanwhile, "EU is getting ready for no-deal, says Jean-Claude Juncker".

And the only answer to this, from the Brexit supporters I have read on line are things like "it's all a bluff", "Someone else will take over", "Doesn't matter: people will find jobs elsewhere"

Depressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:31 AM

"If remaining in the EU was certain to lead to the break up of UK, either into its constituent countries, or by EU recommended regionalisation, would you favour Brexit to protect the integrity of the UK?"

Fair enough, I'll have a go. I don't think it quite comparable, though, because we have been in the EU for a long time and the country has not broken up, whereas the status of NI in particular is a huge problem for Brexit.

When it comes down to it, in extremis, I have NO loyalty to speak of to the UK. I would not call myself patriotic. I haven't checked but I imagine 'patriotic' is derived from 'pater' and I recognise no abstract father that is the country. So I would stay in Europe.

Feel free to skip all the following, because the essential point is above, but this is to elaborate it.

I have little or no affinity to "King and Country". Growing up in Middlesbrough, my identity was 'Yorkshire' and that was far more relevant than anything else. In 1968 we were moved by political whim out of Yorkshire into Teesside with the full understanding that in a few years time - 1974 as it turned out - we would be moved again, this time into Cleveland. Now it would be absurd to suggest that was in any way formative, but it did make me more aware of the arbitrariness of regional labels. There is plenty about the UK I like a great deal, including a tolerance for others that, for its many shortcomings, is still better than many other countries. Through simply living in it I am adapted to the UK to such an extent that living anywhere else would be difficult. But, "in extremis", there are many other parts of the world I could move to with little regret. That includes virtually everywhere in Europe but also a good many other places.

So I have little allegiance to my nation state. What I do see is that issues - for the sake of generic term - need to be addressed at an appropriate level. If you are bothered by litter, you need to be hassling the local council, not the national government or the EU. Climate change, on the other hand, needs to be addressed at a level higher than even groups of states like the EU. I also see that over the last hundred years or so multinationals have outstripped the control of individual governments. All this stuff about the big companies avoiding tax and so on is real and it arises because it is beyond the control of any individual country. When a country says it cannot tax a business because they would move elsewhere, it is acknowledging its lack of sovereignty over that company.   The control of such companies is arguably growing beyond the control of groups of countries like the EU, but it is well beyond any individual one. All the cries of 'sovereignty' miss the fact that so much of our life is decided by multinational companies. The EU is one multinational deciding things: it is one out of dozens - and just about the only one we have direct influence over.

In that context there are issues that need to be addressed at the local level, others at the national, others at the international and others at the global level. My support for my nation state is really that it just another level at which it is suitable to address some issues. I have no loyalty to a country: I have a desire that problems are solved and the country is an appropriate level for some of them.

So getting back to the question more directly: Losing the UK as a group would be losing one such level, and I would oppose it. But not at the cost of losing levels I regard as more important.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:10 AM

So the hypothetical question causes you no problems.
While on hypotheticals, what if the question was:
"If remaining in the EU was certain to lead to the break up of UK, either into its constituent countries, or by EU recommended regionalisation, would you favour Brexit to protect the integrity of the UK?"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:16 PM

Well, of course, I would rather scrap Brexit. So obviously I would want to preserve the UK.

I don't think any deeper analysis is required.

Similarly, on the understanding Brexit is going ahead, I want the form that most keeps the UK united.

Having done that if the individual countries want to go their own way, that is their decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:11 PM

Sorry, I copied the question from the wrong source. The question I was answering was:

“If it were not possible to do both, which of the following would you choose to do? A) Leave the European Union or B) Keep England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales together in the United Kingdom?”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:09 PM

Given the hypothetical question: "Given the choice between leaving the EU and breaking up Britain, which is more important."
I would not be able to give a 100% answer without numerous caveats.

Leaving the EU is very important, and if we don't do it now, the only opportunity we've had since 1973, it may be a very long time before we get the opportunity again.
Keeping the UK together is also very important, if it wants to be kept together. Even without Brexit the Scots have had a referendum on separation, and the rest of the UK had no say in that referendum. That could happen again. It would be a shame if Brexit failed just because we wanted to retain Scotland, and the Scotland decided to leave at a later date.

Similarly with Northern Ireland. I would want to keep them as part of the UK, if that is also the wish of the majority of those who live there. If Jim Carroll is right in his claim that the majority of those in the North now favour a united Ireland it would again be a shame to lose Brexit when we may lose Northern Ireland anyway.

I don't honestly believe that Brexit will force a break up of the UK, although it may facilitate it if parts are already wishing to leave.
So, as it seems to be a one-off opportunity, my feeling would be for continuing with Brexit.

As the Spectator article says it is a hypothetical question. Being in favour of Brexit doesn't mean being in favour of the break-up of UK.

Would anyone else care to respond with their honest view of the question?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:09 PM

I do accept, by the way, that i didnt report the question properly. Apologies, my mistake.

So let's stick to the question in the poll.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:54 PM

We need not argue semantics Nigel. You know Ashborne's question. How would you answer it?   Keith was quite able to do so, and since you have read the question your answer is already in your head, isn't it? It is really whether you can bring yourself to say so rather try to dodge.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:52 PM

Raggy,
Hardly semantics. The question as 'quoted' by DMcG was totally different to the hypothetical question discussed by The Spectator.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:33 PM

Oh dear Nigel.

Once again you are arguing semantics rather than addressing the actual issue.

Par for the course I'm afraid.

Oops ......... no I'm not actually afraid, but it is par for the course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:27 PM

There was been an interesting article in The Spectator saying that asked as a hypothetical question, given the choice between leaving the EU and breaking up Britain, which is more important. It turned out most would break up Britain. And that has been argued for on this very thread, when it was claimed most leavers would be quite happy to see Northern Ireland out of the U.K.

I believe The Spectator is a little more intelligent than to pose that question. The question was:
“If it were not possible to do both, which of the following would you choose to do? A) Leave the European Union or B) Keep England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales together in the United Kingdom?”

The choice was between leaving the EU and saving the UK, not between Leaving the EU and breaking up the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 02:31 PM

So Brexit means WEexit? It would not surprise me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 02:03 PM

the way that things are going in westminster (and trumpton) it looks ever more likely that the scots will be leaving the english to their shitty, narrow -minded and depressing brexit. good.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 12:50 PM

I don't remember that being said, Nigel, but if it was, it was clearly an error. Until we leave, it is an EU matter.   What happens after we leave is quite a different thing.

There was been an interesting article in The Spectator saying that asked as a hypothetical question, given the choice between leaving the EU and breaking up Britain, which is more important. It turned out most would break up Britain. And that has been argued for on this very thread, when it was claimed most leavers would be quite happy to see Northern Ireland out of the U.K.

It would be interesting to see what other the Leavers here think : Is preserving the UK more important than Brexit? It is admittedly, hypothetical at the moment, but may not remain so.