BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:42 PM

With the DUP supporting the government that is unlikely. However, with the resignation of Gerry Adams, who knows? Maybe Sinn Fein will decide it is time to take their seats in Parliament ...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 04:54 AM

Looks like the hubris is collapsing and that more money's going be put on the table. Conversely, lots of very silly talk about trying to exploit Merkel's weakness. Plenty of water still to go under the bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 09:28 AM

Meanwhile, Britain's influence in the world wanes as Brexit nears: How UK lost International Court of Justice place to India

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 10:18 AM

"and there was me thinking Jim had lost his keyboard."
You wish !!!
I'm sure you know the old Billy Connolly statement - "If you want to confuse a policeman, ask him a question"
The same appears to apply to Brexiters.
"Can anyone see the border issue leading to a united Ireland?"
Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has stated that Ireland will have no part in any negotiations without an agreement on an open border
As far as the North is concerned, the religious gap between the Catholics and Protestants that the leadership has so long depended on is rapidly shrinking and the DUP is so far up to its arse in scandal and contradiction that its position is becoming untenable
The 13% that declared they supported a United Ireland 7 years ago have now swelled enormously and Sinn Fein, once a hardline republican party, is now just one seat short of being Stormont's largest party, with 27 seats to the Democratic Unionist Party's 28 seats.
It seems to me that a UNited Ireland is now on the cards   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 07:32 PM

rom: DMcG - PM
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 11:59 AM

I did promise I would get back to Nigel's post about the border, but I will keep it brief. FAILED

The border as it is at present, is, presumably, the type of border that the Irish (both North & South) would like to see in the future.
Why should this change?


The border question was in the original critical things to resolve, it was listed on Friday by Tusk as one of the key things still needing to be resolved, the Taoiseach and the Irish minister have both said the issue is unresolved and Teresa May, in saying it is 'almost resolved', agrees it still isn't.

We also have an veritable army of civil servants on both sides beavering away at it.

Do you honestly think "we can just do more or less what we do now, can't we?" hasn't be considered and rejected?

Then you say the UK does not want a hard border. The problem there is that it is perfectly possible to want contradictory things at the same time. So when the Irish government asks the UK to formally commit that it will not have a hard border it turns out is unwilling to do so, as detailed in the links others have provided. And to be honest I can see why they would want to retain the *option* of a hard border, even though they don't want a hard border.

Finally, though, here is a clipping from, I think, the Times, though it might have been the Telegraph:

While the British have made all the right noises about maintaining the border in its current state, no details as to how this can be achieved have been forthcoming. Suspicions that the issue was not being taken seriously were underlined on Friday when Boris Johnson, the British foreign secretary, suggested that matters relating to the Irish border could be resolved as part of a wider discussion on EU borders, including that between Dover and Calais. Mr Johnson's apparent failure to understand the differences between these borders is alarming and capped a bad week for Anglo-Irish relations.

You appear (whether through ignorance, or unwillingness to look at the actual details of the negotiations) unable to realise that UK and The Republic of Ireland cannot decide what will happen.
Although both would wish that there will not be a 'hard' border, Ireland are not able to negotiate their own position. They have to wait for the EU to tell them what their position will be.

Fortunately we are getting out of this madness!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 08:54 PM

Have another pint, Nige. Best leave it 'til morning, eh? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 01:36 AM

No more to be said on this one, Nigel. Once again, let us see what happens mid December.

In the meantime, perhaps you want to explain how that poster I linked to earlier is not a promise to put the money into the NHS. The poster, please, not the bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 05:10 AM

Not only that, the figure of £350 million is a downright lie. If an actual figure could be gleaned at all from the plethora of financial wheelings, dealings, subsidies, tariffs and rebates that characterises our relationship with the EU, it's more like £160 million. Google this for a breakdown:

"Boris Johnson’s £350m claim is devious and bogus. Here’s why"
(John Lichfield, Guardian, 18 Sept).

As he points out, the "true" figure would be far more likely to be seen as an acceptable cost by people weighing up the pros and cons of our membership. The article also puts into perspective what the numbers relating to our contribution and what the EU spends actually mean percentage-wise when set beside our GDP. They are surprisingly small.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 05:27 AM

The point was made during the referendum campaign.
It was challenged at the time by the Remain side, and defended by the Leave side.
All in open public debate.

The public made their choice based on all the arguments presented including this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM

You are confusing the two terms "argument" and "downright lie."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 06:13 AM

Brilliant article here from an outsider's point of view. 48% of us largely agree with this assessment, although under Corbyn it can't any worse.

No One Knows What Britain Is Anymore

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 11:06 AM

Oh dear, even the chancellor has cut the projected figures for growth in Britain.

If we were next to the bottom of the pile before .............

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 11:13 AM

The Chancellor for Remain lied that a Leave vote would require an immediate emergency budget to prevent the economy crashing.

Fair play. It was all put to the people and they decided who made the best case and who they believed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 11:23 AM

who made the best case and who they believed.

Rather like the Mark Lees of the world. See tRUMP thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 11:46 AM

Fair play my arse. We have the right to expect integrity from the people we elect to run the country. You are giving them licence to lie in their teeth to us.

And I'll console myself that the "Chancellor for Remain" was just as big a scumbag Tory as the current foreign secretary.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 12:31 PM

More from the US press, this time The New Yorker. The rest of the world is wondering what has happened in this country, as the lunacy of Brexit crashes on and Britain becomes more isolated: No End in Sight to the Brexit Madness

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 12:46 PM

Fair play. It was all put to the people and they decided who made the best case and who they believed

The reason I drew attention to the leaflet that said "Let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week" is because it is about those who voted Brexit act now. We hear many people say what was printed on the bus was true and just misinterpreted: that it did not claim the Leave people said "Let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week".

But this poster says exactly that. The actual figure has been discussed many times so leave that to one side. As I read it, this claims that a significant number of billions going to the EU is promised for the NHS.

Do those who voted Leave say it still doesn't make the claim? Or do they say it was a lie, but it's all in the past so we needn't worry about it? Or do some think some people were fooled but nevertheless even with that they think the decision to leave was still the best thing? Or have they another way of looking at it? No one need answer, unless they wish to. But it is worth reflecting on.


And that matters, because it should influence how people think about the current promises.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 01:19 PM

"The Chancellor for Remain lied that a Leave vote would require an immediate emergency budget to prevent the economy crashing."
Thast's not "lying" Keith - thay's making a prediction
The Brexit crowd promised a better Britain - it immediatly got a massive rise in racist attacks
The fiascos since have indicated that that "better Britain" is getting further and further away every day (ten years was the last prediction for a steadying economy)
Some of us will never live long enough to see the "better Britain" that was promised - neither will or kids at this rate
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 03:58 PM

More from the US press, this time The New Yorker. The rest of the world is wondering what has happened in this country, as the lunacy of Brexit crashes on and Britain becomes more isolated: No End in Sight to the Brexit Madness

You can take some small solace in that the rest of the world is wondering what has happened in the U.S., as the lunacy of Trump crashes on. No end in sight for Trump, Trumpists and Trumpism either.

As bad as the Brexit mess is, it pales in comparison the ongoing disaster here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 08:35 PM

So what have we learned today, Tory brexiteers? Why, that growth is stuffed for five years.That productivity is stuffed for five years. That government borrowing will increase our debt for the foreseeable future. That we're in austerity until 2025 and beyond. Groovy! King, country and my pot plants forever!   Wheeee!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:59 AM

And, in the meantime, the mega-rich carry on offshoring, corporation tax rates continue to be reduced, the NHS continues to be under-funded in order to justify Privatisation-by-Stealth. Same Old Tory Same Old - screw the (comparatively) poor to make the already-rich increasingly richer.

Did anyone else notice Hammond once again drop in the barefaced Tory lie that won them the 2010 and 2015 GEs - the inference that the 2008 world-wide financial crash, and the ensuing 'Great Recession' were 'caused' by the Labour government?

I despair that ordinary, decent, working-class people are so feeble-minded that they're bamboozled by their propaganda into voting Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 05:47 AM

And before anyone else comes here to tell us what a hash Corbyn would make of running the country, lessee... A promise to get rid of the deficit by 2015. Not a chance of getting rid of it while any of us here live and breathe. An end to austerity. You bet. Our cherished health service, in pretty good nick when the Tories inherited it, going straight down the pan. School budgets slashed to the bone resulting in parents being begged to buy pencils and paper. A referendum that simply couldn't be lost that was duly lost. The looming catastrophe of a brexit being steered (wrong word, I know) by the biggest bunch of incompetents that have ever "run" the country. An election called in the interests of the riven Tory party, not the country, that ended with an enforced coalition with a partner that would make the Dark Ages look like the Golden Years. If Jezza sat on a high rock shouting, "Here you are, China, take all our money!" it probably wouldn't be any worse than what's happening now.

Kick out the Tories!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 06:23 AM

Jim,
"The Chancellor for Remain lied that a Leave vote would require an immediate emergency budget to prevent the economy crashing."
Thast's not "lying" Keith - thay's making a prediction

He said he would call a budget, but then he did not do it.
He was in a position to know, not just predict.

DMcG
Do those who voted Leave say it still doesn't make the claim? Or do they say it was a lie, but it's all in the past so we needn't worry about it?

I say it was a controversial claim that was openly challenged and debated at the time. Leave said it was false and Remain attempted to justify it, as with many other issues on both sides.
The people then decided who had made the best case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 07:41 AM

Thanks, Keith, but that is a different point. Do you claim today that leaflet - and again I refer to the leaflet not the bus - makes no promise about payment? Nigel, for example, was clear earlier in the thread that he believes the bus did not make such a promise. I do not know if he claims today this leaflet did not make a promise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 08:12 AM

"He was in a position to know, not just predict."
The shambolic situation following Brexit has guaranteed nobody was or is in a position to guarantee anything
Today's report on Britain's performance has outlined that fact - cnfusion, incompetence and lack of direction
On top of that it has been announced that British wokrrs wage progress has ben set back by twenty years
Utter chaos
Lies - what ****** lies and who tells the most?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 08:19 AM

WAGE SETBACK
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 08:36 AM

"The shambolic situation following Brexit has guaranteed nobody was or is in a position to guarantee anything
Today's report on Britain's performance has outlined that fact - cnfusion, incompetence and lack of direction
On top of that it has been announced that British wokrrs wage progress has ben set back by twenty years
Utter chaos"

and you seriously think comrade corbyn would do better?

We will end Theresa May’s reckless approach to Brexit, and seek to unite the country around a Brexit deal that works for every community in Britain.

    “Labour will always put jobs and the economy first”

We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first???????????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 08:45 AM

Emojees are best avoided at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 09:26 AM

Here is the error in your argument Iains.

You are saying that Corbyn would be worse. That may turn out to be the case but, as yet, we have no idea if that is true.

What we do know for certain is that the shower of shits that currently pass for what we call a government could not organise a piss up in a brewery.

You are trying to compare what may be with what is and your right wing bias is making you draw conclusions that are not possible.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 09:36 AM

Says it all......

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 09:50 AM

But corbyn has momentum onside and still suffers from inertia. What hope have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:05 AM

There is no escaping the fact that you are just speculating Iains. It seems to be a trait of you and your right wing chums. When faced with the fact that the present administration is shite your only response is a prediction based on your political bias.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:13 AM

Did anyone else notice that, in responding to the Chancellor's speech, Jeremy Corbyn started to sound like a Dalek? It stirred up strange images.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:15 AM

Iain has a point. Corbyn is as committed to Brexit as the tories and will face the same hurdles, especially as the more extreme right of the tory party and the non-dom right-wing media moguls are in danger of convincing the 52% a hard brexit would be a good idea, despite the fact they won't have to suffer the consequences.

I'm not convinced that Labour are a credible alternative, they cannot even gain a decent lead in the polls with the shower in charge feuding amongst themselves and making the UK a laughing stock.

There is not alternative to the tories, and that means we're fucked.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:19 AM

Again, Stu, speculation. All we have to go off are the promises of politicians. And we all know how much those are worth :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:20 AM

Speculation is the province of the BrexShitters, DtG - they voted Leave on the basis of absolutely nothing more solid than speculation, the Leave campaign could give them nothing better. What a bunch of feeble-minded, deluded Bell-Ends. At least we 'stoopid Remoaners' voted on the basis of solid facts, evidenced and experienced every minute of our lives since 1973. The BrexShit vote was based on wish-washy guesswork and unrealistic expectations.

Anyway, I'm going back to my window now, to look out for the arrival of those unicorns the BrexShitters are expecting to be here soon....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:54 AM

You are a strange bunch on here. Leftwing speculation is regarded as absolute truth and rightwing speculation as fantasy designed to brainwash the electorate. Both parties inhabit fantasy land and everything you read about the implications of brexit is based on even more dodgy dossiers than the ones concerning weapons of mass destruction. Also you very conveniently manage to overlook the fact that labour is also committed to brexit.

Let me repeat this for the diehards: LABOUR IS ALSO COMMITTED TO BREXIT.
That does make many of the posters on this thread total dummies. They fail to accommodate this rather basic factor in their postings and cannot see how this influences where we are today.
Corbyn is busy trying to sabotage his own manifest. Got to admit it is a novel way of trying to win an election.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:54 AM

Unfortunately, Corbyn is not in a position in which he can say let's abandon brexit. Anyone with a brain now realises what a bloody awful idea it is, even though lots of people won't admit it (including a few on here), but brexit demurrals would have accusations raining down about going against the will of the people, undemocratic behaviour, etc., that would see him unceremoniously dumped in any election. Realpolitik dictates that he carries on letting the Tories immolate. Note that he's muted his calls for the Tories to stand aside and let Labour do the deal. That's the last thing he needs. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost working together couldn't make a silk purse out of this pig's unwashed, chocolate-covered arse of a brexit plan. If she called an election tomorrow his platform would have to be firmly pro-brexit. It's a bloody terrible position for this country to be in. However, who knows how things may change in the coming few months. The whole idea may come to look so unattractive that all the parties might agree to dump it. I live in probably forlorn hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:56 AM

Well we crossed with each other there, Iains. Just for once you have a good point! Just the one, mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 11:01 AM

There is no speculation involved in commenting on what is actually happening. There is in predicting the future. That is the only point I am making. As I said at the outset you could well be right in saying Corbyn could do no better but that is speculation, not fact.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 11:14 AM

I have a feeling that he knows that no-one involved in the negotiations has a cat in hell's chance of coming out looking good and that he knows he's politically better off just letting the Tories screw it up, which they will. It's way too late now but we needed a credible opposition to brexit. there was simply no-one on the high ground telling us the truth bar the limp-mode LibDems, and the pro-brexit lies had one hundred percent of the populist appeal. By proceeding in the Labour Party's best interest, he's not acting in the country's best interests. But if he tried to be honest and speak out in the country's interests he'd be demolished. What a cock-up. Positively Kafkaesque.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 11:52 AM

"you could well be right in saying Corbyn could do no better but that is speculation, not fact." Studying his previous form, I would say it ranks somewhat above speculation. His responses to the budget were effete and verging on inarticulate. How will he hold up to a real crisis ?- He must be the only geriatric snowflake in Christendom.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 12:11 PM

"It's a bloody terrible position for this country to be in."

It didn't have to be this way. Labour were too scared to come out as the party of remain because their core support had flocked to UKIP and they had to be seen to support them despite them knowing full well Brexit will hit those voters hardest.

It was a mistake and showed a weakness in the philosophy of Labour; we expect the tories and scumbag kippers to be reactionary and reductionist, but hoped for more from Labour. We've been let down and now have nowhere to turn to and are unrepresented. Shitebags, the lot of 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 12:53 PM

Predictions and speculations are indeed invidious, but the world has been full of weird surprises recently. I think we could still emerge from this with no brexit. Yours in hope, well-educated, harmonica-totin', hanging-in-there Labour Party member, remoaner-in-chief, retired science teacher. In any order you like. Pass the corkscrew.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:16 PM

The Tories are coming under the cosh on this thread for a perfectly good reason - that BrexShit is wholly-owned by them.

They started it with a horse's-arse of a referendum called for no other reason than the appeasement of their own xenophobic, racist Right-Wing extremists element. Then having lost the 'unlosable' referendum, and despite calls for the BrexShit process to be made a cross-party affair, they took it upon themselves to exclude all other parties, indeed they tried to deny the sovereignty of Parliament itself.

Who else should be taking the punches? By their own hand they've put themselves into this situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:20 PM

Sorry, Backwoodsman, but don't you know it is all the EU's fault? We are told that often enough, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:40 PM

LOL! Of course, I forgot all about that! ROTFLMAO!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:43 PM

Do you claim today that leaflet - and again I refer to the leaflet not the bus - makes no promise about payment?

It does appear to. I have never seen that image before and can not remember such a claim ever being discussed at the time or since.
Only the bus.
It can have had little influence on the outcome if no-one saw it.

The Chancellor definitely promised an emergency budget though.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:49 PM

We've been let down and now have nowhere to turn to and are unrepresented.

Pass the tissues, Please!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 02:05 PM

Another belter! You're a shaft of wit.