BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 10:42 AM

legalling agreeing there will be no hard border requires both parties.
We have agreed to no hard border, but EU will not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 10:46 AM

From what I remember of my schooldays an agreement is a two part thing. One party cannot have an agreement without the other. Unless we are speaking a different language of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 10:47 AM

Read the legal drafts, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 12:29 PM

Keith is talking as though the Republic hasn't got a dog in this race. It's just ridiculous. The UK UNILATERALLY declaring (not "agreeing," Keith, pur-lease!) that there will be no changes to the border is illegitimate. Fine as an aspiration, invalid as a demand or declaration. The rules are that unless NI is in the customs union there have to be border controls that, under current arrangements, we don't need. That is not a threat. That's the rules. For over four decades the UK has benefited from being in an organisation with that rule. We changed the game by voting leave, not the EU. It's down to us to suggest workarounds, and the EU rejecting those workarounds is not a threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 12:45 PM

Dave,
From what I remember of my schooldays an agreement is a two part thing. One party cannot have an agreement without the other

That was my point Dave. Only one side, us, has so far undertaken no border change. EU will not.

Steve,
Keith is talking as though the Republic hasn't got a dog in this race.

Of course they have. A hard border is the last thing that they want.
But still, EU keeps threatening one.
UK's position is clear. We will not impose a hard border "under any circumstances."
Not an "aspiration" Steve, but a firm commitment.

Ireland can not make such a commitment because it is not independent.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 01:18 PM

Hoops, guys...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 01:47 PM

"But still, EU keeps threatening one."

Parrot.

"Ireland can not make such a commitment because it is not independent."

We are also not independent. Now here's a basic lesson for you, Keith. Are you listening? Good!

Ahem:

A "border" is a thingie with a country on one side and another country on the other side. When both those countries are democracies at peace with each other, they have an equal interest in deciding what happens at that border. When one or both of those countries are part of a larger bloc that has customs arrangements agreed on both sides, then the arrangement can change only if BOTH countries, with the blessing of the larger trading bloc, agree, or if they BOTH leave the bloc. But the larger trading bloc CAN'T BE BLAMED (or accused of issuing threats) if all it does is remind a country wishing to leave of its rules, which have to be maintained in the interests of consistency and fair play among all the countries in the bloc.   It's one hundred percent the doing of the leaving country if border arrangements thereby become problematical. The EU is pointing out the issue that the UK has brought about and is perfectly correct in insisting that its customs rules are not stretched at the whim of one country out of 28.

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 02:26 PM

Ah but, ah but, Keefie's 'Taking Are Cuntry Back', just like Bozo and Haddock-Face told him.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 02:27 PM

"But it is not good enough to say, 'We won't introduce a hard border; if the EU forces Ireland to do it, that's down to them'. We chose to leave; we have a responsibility to help find a solution"

Remember that, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 07:15 PM

It's late. Keith bedtime late. But here's a prediction. Keith will ignore all this reasoned argument put to him and, in the morning, will say that "only the EU is threatening a hard border." I know a man who's taking bets.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 04:34 AM

DMcG,
We chose to leave; we have a responsibility to help find a solution"

We have. Exempt small firms trading across the border from any tariffs, and collect all taxes and duties electronically as is being done now.

The trade is mostly into the North so the Republic would benefit.
There is no need for a hard border but EU still threatens to impose one, presumably just to punish us.

If it was up to the Republic there would be no problem, but they can not act independently because of their membership.
We will be free to leave our side completely open.

If they give us a free trade deal, there is no issue anyway.
A free trade deal would benefit everyone but again, we must be punished whatever the cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 05:50 AM

Ok, I expect this to be my last post on the border question until the EU or the UK representatives or a politician say something else.

Things are only 'help' if both sides agree they are helpful. Until then, they are just suggestions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 06:04 AM

"Republic would benefit."
Since when has it vbeen the job tof a Little Brit to decide what i best for Ireland
Since the Seige of Waterford, of course - thet was 8 centuries ago and now it's a thing of the past
The Brexsit National Front has been whingeing that Britain needs to stand on its own feet yet it is still happy to stamp over everybody else's feet
Mind your own business - you people have done enough damage to Ireland without bribing terrorist linked sectarians to allow you to do more
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 06:14 AM

Jim,
"Republic would benefit."
Since when has it vbeen the job tof a Little Brit to decide what i best for Ireland

I meant the UK would be losing revenue but the Republic would make out of it.

DMcG,
Things are only 'help' if both sides agree they are helpful

One side does not want to be helped.
They want to use the threat of a hard border as a negotiating tool, even though it would hurt their side too.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 07:25 AM

Select committee releases the impact assessments

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 07:32 PM

"I meant the UK would be losing revenue but the Republic would make out of it."
We'be been here before Keith
Brexit has fucked up Britain's economy and has threatened the Union itself
It now stands to set the peace process back several decades
It has brought to the forefront a bigoted dying party which is fighting to keep Ireland in the Dark ages as far as Single Sex Marriage, Pregnancy Termination and the preservation of the Irish Language
Are you seriouly suggesion that such a ******-u nation is in a position to tell Ireland what is good for it and what is not?
You've already insisted that you know better tan the Irish People regarding the border

Go buy a history book - the Empire is dead and Britannia no longer rules the waves - or anywhere T.B.T.G.
"One side does not want to be helped."
See what I meen - how friggin' patonising can you get
I#d stick with bunging billions to terrorist linked parties if I were you - maybe that way at least you'll keep your government for a few weeks longer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 07:50 PM

Keith
"One side does not want to be helped."
Regarding Britain, (or maybe that should be England) I thing you will find that regarding helping anybody, their policy has always been "let's help oourslves" and that is exactly what they have done - helped themselves - to land, to natural resources, to profits from the labour of the indigenous people.... whatever was at hand to be looted
Of all countries, Ireland, Britain's oldest colony, is aware of the consequences of that predatory policy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:11 AM

Tusk says Ireland First : no trade talks until the UK has produced a specific and realistic solution to avoid a hard border.

And, evidently, they do not believe the UK has done so yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:16 AM

I had to laugh at this one:

====÷
Speaking to The House magazine, Mr Gyimah – considered a rising star in the Conservative Party – said: “I guess ultimately we have a workable Brexit or Jeremy Corbyn ends up in Downing Street. And I think that would be a terrible thing for the country.”

=====

An ultimately workable Brexit? How ambitions have fallen!The

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:17 AM

Damnable autotext!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:31 AM

"Of all countries, Ireland, Britain's oldest colony, is aware of the consequences of that predatory policy"

More of the scouser's fairy tales!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 04:28 AM

"More of the scouser's fairy tales!"
Your childish behaviour has just got one thread closed Iains; we don't need a repeat performance to know how childish you are
If you would like to discuss this like an adult, feel free, otherwise, go and play in thee garden with the other kids
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 04:42 AM

DMcG,
the UK has produced a specific and realistic solution to avoid a hard border.

UK will not be imposing one. That is how we will avoid it.
Tusk and the EU should read their own report that specifies how they can avoid one too.
This is just campaign rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 05:03 AM

You can say that as much as you like, Keith. But if that's all the UK says it will never get on to talking trade. At the absolute minimum, it needs to put that in a legally enforceable document.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 05:20 AM

DMcG,
At the absolute minimum, it needs to put that in a legally enforceable document.
Says who? Quote please.

You do not need a legally enforceable document to make no change.
UK is not going to change the border under any circumstances.
It has been shown that it is not necessary in the EU's own report.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 06:04 AM

Ireland/EU want to hinder Brexit and are just being obstructive for the sake of it.
They are refusing to take "Yes" for an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 06:22 AM

"Your childish behaviour has just got one thread closed Iains; we don't need a repeat performance to know how childish you are "

I wonder????????? As Martin said to his man................!
and of course jimmies introduction of his usual Jewish card made no contribution?


There are many arguments to suggest Ireland was not Britain's first colony. Deliberate settlements did not occur until the plantations of the first commonwealth in the 1650's

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 06:23 AM

At the absolute minimum, it needs to put that in a legally enforceable document.
Says who? Quote please

Says me, as far as that being my judgement of what the minimum is likely to be. That a legal agreement is needed: the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 07:38 AM

Says me,

I think you are wrong that it is a requirement by anyone actually involved.
It is a technical not a legal issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 07:49 AM

"Jewish card made no contribution?"
Only antisemites (by definition) confuse Israel with the Jewish People Iains
As I said grow up and take part as an adult or not at all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 08:07 AM


I think you are wrong.

That is always possible - I never claim omniscience. But I think it will we clear by the end of March.

"I may not be right, but I don't thinknI am wrong".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 09:24 AM

Iains, you do really need to read some history of the English presence in Ireland from 1169 onwards. Not only will you learn something but it really is very interesting ............ and at times brutal.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 09:45 AM

DMcG,
Tusk, "“While we must respect this position, we also expect the UK to propose a specific and realistic solution to avoid a hard border. "

Nothing about requiring "a legally enforceable document. "

They just want practical details, ignoring the fact that they already have them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 10:32 AM

Jimmie you made the accusation "I was a squalid holocaust denier"
No evidence to support the accusation just another of your lies.

Why is it that other people are banned from the forum while you continue to make totally outrageous, unsubstantiated allegations with no censure?

Why do the moderators stand back and allow this person to hurl insults and false accusations at people when others are penalised?

Teribus has gone
Greg is on leave? of absence

Was their behaviour so consistently bad as that of Carroll?

Carroll comes out to play with zero consequences

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 12:47 PM

Maybe it is because the moderators can see the truth, Iains.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 12:58 PM

I was referring to your denying the holocaust that is taking place in Syria - no lies, unless you've changed your mind
Anyway - beside the point, it doesn't belong on this thread so take it to the Syrian one - whoops, forgot - you got that closed with your childish behavior didn't you
For fucks sake act like an adult instead ot this stupidly infantile name-calling
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 01:44 PM

"I was referring to your denying the holocaust that is taking place in Syria "
Bullshit!
You clearly stated I was a holocaust denier, There is only one holocaust. You made no attempt to qualify the statement the first time around. Why qualify it now?
You are a disgrace to this forum.

So gnome you fully support his totally unsubstantiated allegations.
That rather demonstrates what sort of character you possess.

Insults are all par for the course below the line but obviously libellous statements are not, and should be censured.

Holacaust deniers have been imprisoned for their beliefs- and rightly so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 01:56 PM

I do not think that this thread is moderated.
Also the Westminster sex thread.

Jim has accused me of defending paedophiles there, and Dave Gnome made a whole series of vulgar or obscene 3 word posts unrelated to anything being discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:49 PM

Holocaust deniers are not imprisoned for their beliefs. They are imprisoned for expressing their beliefs in the form of hate speech. Quite right - throw the bloody keys away. But let people believe what the hell they like as long as they keep it to themselves.

Are you actually sane, Iains? You are by a country mile the most offensive and insulting presence here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 04:17 PM

Unless they expressed their beliefs they could not be recognized as holocaust deniers now could they?you stupid boy! and if you are such a clever little shit, just show me where I have ever denied the holocaust.

Little jimmie is the most offensive and you shaw are the most insulting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 07:10 PM

When talking about Holocaust denial, scarcely the subject of this thread, but hey ho, it's extremely important to distinguish between holocaust and Holocaust. In my view, the capitalised word should mean the one thing only. The non-capitalised word, again in my view, should not be used. There are better words for describing the destruction of people other than the killing of six million Jews by the Nazis.

And thank you, Iains, for confirming to us all what we already know about your insulting and offensive behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 08:26 PM

"I do not think that this thread is moderated."
Nether do I
I think if it was Iain's persistent childish abuse would have stopped a long time ago
"There is only one holocaust. "
WHAT!!!!
are you joking?
The Jewis Holocause =t is defined by teh use of a capital H
This from the Meriam dictioanary
"b : a mass slaughter of people; especially : genocide a holocaust in Rwanda"
The term is now used to describe what happened in former Yugoslavia, in Rwanda and in Ireland during the famine
To my knowledge, yo have never mentioned the Nazi Holocaust - I referred to what is happening in Syria, which you are defending
Can Keith and Iainss take their arguments to the appropriate threads or open up new ones
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 09:39 PM

I am sorry.. I can't be bothered to read through all this twaddle and bullshit. Most of which was probably written by people too young to remember when ENGLAND (stuff the rest of the UK) was free of the oppression imposed by the Common Market. We have spent years subsidising French farmers, Italian goodness knows what makers...

England should never have joined in the first place. All these people bleating on probably don't remember the butter mountains and wine lakes and just to rub your noses in it, if it wasn't for Margaret Thacker England would be a bankrupt nation by now thanks to the EU.. so grow up and get real.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 02:34 AM

Keith (09 Mar 18 - 09:45 AM):

Two things

A) you cannot demonstrate a person did not say something by pointing out a sentence or two in which they did not say it.

B) more importantly this time, the entire discourse was in the context of converting the December agreements into a legal text.


I disagree by the way there is no need tp say something will not change when you are writing up in a legal text what the nature of a relationship will be. Politically as well, a willingness to hold off starting discussions on trade because you are not prepared to put in law what you say you want can only make people suspicious you are not serious. David Davis' willingness to play with words and backtrack on things he has said before makes it far more difficult to just take people's word.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 03:40 AM

Well I'm old enough to remember being a citizen of the sick man of Europe in our pre-EU days, Mick. During our membership we became the fifth largest economy in the world. Once again, no-one will argue that the EU hasn't produced its share of absurdities. Far better to remain, fight for reform and modernise the club. As for oppression imposed, well every member state had the choice of whether to join and, once joined, has a full say in drawing up any new or changed rules, in many cases having the power of veto. We can't have a European army, for example, because the UK says no. Rules and laws are agreed to only by democratically-elected representatives of the member states. By the way, Mick, a word in your shell-like: if you go to NI, Wales or Scotland for your hols, remember to wear a disguise... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 03:45 AM

"Most of which was probably written by people too young to remember when ENGLAND (stuff the rest of the UK) "
Nice one Mick - sums up Little England (and Brexit) in a few lines
Thank for the flattery about our age though - I wish!!
Little England really never has shaken off "The White Man's Burden" image that allowed the Empire to plunder the rest of the world for as long as it did
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 03:50 AM

DMcG,
A) you cannot demonstrate a person did not say something by pointing out a sentence or two in which they did not say it.

I quoted him contradicting it, and no-one can provide a quote of it being said by anyone except you.
No-one actually involved in the negotiation has ever suggested that it is a requirement.

I am off line for a bit now.
Cheers,
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 04:23 AM

Ok Keith, chat later.

But that is not a contradiction of (a) and anyway I said (b) was the important factor.

As Mick says he can't be bothered to read the comments this is as much as I can be bothered to respond.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 04:36 AM

So gnome you fully support his totally unsubstantiated allegations.

Silly Iains. I did not support or oppose anything. Just pointed out that the moderators know what they are doing. As far as I know they stay well away from these toxic British politics threads.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 05:47 AM

"Silly Iains. I did not support or oppose anything. Just pointed out that the moderators know what they are doing. As far as I know they stay well away from these toxic British politics threads."

Perhaps that should change. They have no hesitation moderating on any other thread, or closing them. My only criticism would be that closure could come far sooner in many cases.



There is a major distinction between being rude and deliberately offensive. Probably a subtlety too far for the mudrats, who have to support one another come what may.
without a shadow of a doubt jimmie is deliberately offensive and gets away with it repeatedly.
Others get banned!