BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:07 AM

We are already aligned on social and political matters, so no problem there.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 06:18 PM

including trade and social and political aspects

Do we really have to get down to counting?

Trade .. 1 thing
Social .. 2 things
Political .. 3 things

a free trade deal would be the best possible deal for us all.

Trade .. 1 thing

No sign of two things the EU sees as important. So no, the assertion that trade is the best thing 'for us all' simply shows an inability to put yourself in their position.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 04:29 PM

"You won, get over it!"

Bloody brilliant, John, you've got the idea!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 02:55 PM

apologies if someone has posted before but:

I do think this is   in bad taste

and caconyms should be spelled with a "k".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 01:55 PM

it's not the responsibility of the EU to give us the best possible deal - it's their responsibility to give the 27 the best possible deal.

Completely agree, but a free trade deal would be the best possible deal for us all.

Believe it or not, the EUs primary interest is what it thinks is in the best long term interest of the EU, including trade and social and political aspects.

I do believe that, but I do not believe their negotiators are acting on that. If we made a success of Brexit it would reflect badly on the EU and they seem willing to take a hit themselves to prevent that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 11:54 AM

"Believe it or not, the EUs primary interest is what it thinks is in the best long term interest of the EU, including trade and social and political aspects. Suggesting it is only doing so to pressurise the UK is real "Fog in the channel, continent cut off" thinking."

BINGO!

I find it astonishing, every time I hear the BrexShit brigade spluttering and frothing about the EU 'frustrating' the BrexShit negotiations, that they can't or won't get it into their heads that it's not the responsibility of the EU to give us the best possible deal - it's their responsibility to give the 27 the best possible deal.

If that means the UK doesn't get a deal, or gets a crap deal, that's just tough shit! You won, get over it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 08:54 AM

That was really garbled. Best to ignore it I think.

Using my phone for mudcat posts is really tricky and can lead to posts before i am ready.

I really should refrain and wait until i can use my iPad or desktop. Apologies, all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 08:47 AM

It seems to be quibble whether putting forward something that you know, without any input from the EU does not meet what you agreed to in December. I think that is not a genuine proposal, but if you want to say it is, who cares? It does not change that the proposal the UK will put forward will be after the Brussels meeting, not before it.

Believe it or not, the EUs primary interest is what it thinks is in the best long term interest of the EU, including trade and social and political aspects. Suggesting it is only doing so to pressurise the UK is real "Fog in the channel, continent cut off" thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 08:30 AM

"With no deal the EU will have about £320 billion of goods each year looking for another home"

So you agree, do you, that this piece of hyperbole is nonsensical? Particularly with regard to the use of "will have"? Can't begin to imagine wot you and Nige would have said had I typed something like that. Mind you, it fits quite well, philosophically speaking, with your bus message...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 08:07 AM

To think it would shrink to nil would be unrealistic and the ultimate nightmare scenario, but it remains a theoretical possibility. To think certain market share would take a hammering is entirely reasonable, should agreement not be reached. EU exports to the UK are roughly 3:2 versus imports.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 07:51 AM

So, Iains, you think that EU imports will shrink from £347 billion to nil if there's no deal. That's the upshot of what you said, and therein lies the twaddle. I'm not quibbling with your numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 07:43 AM

No keith, I am not playing that game. I said "Incidental stuff like people's rights, for example" which you chose to restrict to human rights and ignore all other examples like air pollution. And now you want to delve into the ramifications of Runnymede, apparently.

I perhaps made an error in not pointing out those shifts in topic in my first reply to you, but as I said you seemed to be interested in discussion rather than point scoring so I let it go by.


Sorry, not playing along.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 05:38 AM

"With no deal the EU will have about £320 billion of goods each year looking for another home"

Actually I was wrong the figure for 2017 was £347billion.

If you wish to dispute the parliamentary figures for EU exports to the UK let's be having your sources as you like to say!
With no deal who is to say if that export market will be untouched?

Dismissing the idea as twaddle is a typical lefty ostrich impersonation, hoping the problem will go away if ignored long enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 04:49 AM

Twaddle, and you know it!

We are a major market for them, bigger than any non-member country.
Loss of free trade would hurt them too.
German car makers, already low from diesel gate, can ill afford to lose market share here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 04:37 AM

DMcG,
I was not suggesting the EU had anything to do with Windrush. I was responding to "Why assume we are incapable of safeguarding human rights for ourselves"

How does Windrush show we ae incapable of safeguarding human rights without EU control?
We managed human rights very well before joining. We led the world on it as far back as 1215.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 04:21 AM

"With no deal the EU will have about £320 billion of goods each year looking for another home"

Twaddle, and you know it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 03:35 AM

surely the point of human rights is that no country is capable of ever deciding on these for themselves - they must be subject to a 'jury' of other nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 03:33 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:18 PM

No NI border proposal for another month.

To be polite I would describe that as disingenuous, at the very least.
"No NI border proposal". There have already been proposals put forward, which have been dismissed by the EU, who are not interested in finding a solution as it will remove a point of leverage.
"No further NI border proposal" might be more accurate, if somewhat less hard-hitting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:44 PM

Someone must be hiding the details of the deal. Very funny
Hand it over already. Anybody?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:18 PM

No NI border proposal for another month.

Place your bets on a proposal within a month that meets the December commitments now.

It was expecially amusing that the reason for the meeting was so we could explain the "sensitivities" of Northern Ireland. You would have thought someone might have mentioned it in the last two years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:04 PM

PS Any good news about Brexit yet,

Yes. The remainiacs have not managed to sabotage the process yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:14 PM

That's the one DMcG. thank you for linking it.

It does make quite serious reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 03:15 PM

Is this it?

Interesting hearing Grayling tonight trying to keep a distance from Boris' F-----amous remark about business.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 03:00 PM

Many people consider that the UK government has spent much,if not all, of the past two years blithering and blustering about our future trade arrangements.

Today an article in the Guardian poses questions from foreign businness with operations in the UK asking for clarification (this after Airbus and BMW)

I would conisder that we should have serious concerns about our future.

Could some kind person kindly link to the article entitled "Foreign Businness to UK"

Cheers

PS Any good news about Brexit yet

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 01:14 PM

Ah, Keith. And you were playing (fairly) nicely for a while. Don't slip back into old habits.

I was not suggesting the EU had anything to do with Windrush. I was responding to "Why assume we are incapable of safeguarding human rights for ourselves". That is a general comment about our own ability to police ourselves. A response to it just needs to be about our shortcomings in that area, not a litany of praise to the ECJ.

However, if you need an example involving the EU, we could look at the UK-ECJ record on air pollution. I leave you free to look up and read the rulings for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 12:24 PM

Did EU play any part in Windrush case DMcG?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 10:08 AM

Overuse of 'similar' there. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 10:07 AM

Why assume we are incapable of safeguarding human rights for ourselves?

Well, "Windrush" shows we can spend a long time abusing people's rights, even if in that case we are getting it sorted now. But I for one question whether we would have without a notable anniversary. And there appear to be similar cases which are similar but lack the convenience of a media label.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:53 AM

That was Cameron, Osbourne and co, Nigel. I trust them even less than I trust your groundless, to date, optimism.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:39 AM

UK led the world in human rights before we joined EU.
We have our own safeguards. Why assume we are incapable of safeguarding human rights for ourselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:36 AM

Who should I believe? Everyone who has seriously studied business and economics
If those people include those who also told us that a vote to leave would cause an immediate recession, a £60bn black hole in our finances, unemployment for thousands, and an immediate emergency budget, then it's up to you if you wish to trust their views this time around.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:33 AM

Just read Nigel's list of possible "worst things". There's a whole mixture of stuff there, but a remarkable proportion of them arose where we we thought trade overrode all other matters. Incidental stuff like people's rights, for example.

Which is one reason worrying about trade deals and nothing else is an alarm signal to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:26 AM

What forecasts based on a good trade deal have "told us it will be an unmitigated disaster."
How could it be?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:19 AM

I have always said I would be more than happy to be proved wrong about brexit. This thread has always offered the opportunity for the leavers (or in Iains's parlance, rightards) to offer a glimmer of hope for a bright future. To date any forecast providing such assurances has been spectacularly absent. The only reliable forecasts, including by every major financial organisation, every school of economics and every notable economist has told us it will be an unmitigated disaster. Who should I believe? Everyone who has seriously studied business and economics or the mudcatters who are full of optimism but cannot explain why?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:16 AM

I don't say the EU want a no-deal either. I am saying who threatens who with it isn't that straightforward. Since both would lose by it, it is by no means just a UK weapon.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:53 AM

With no deal the EU will have about £320 billion of goods each year looking for another home

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:53 AM

You may read the entrails differently, but it looks much more likely to me the UK will be locked out of the room with a no-deal the only thing on the table unless they come back with something sensible.

I don't think that will happen. If there's 'no deal' then we walk away with WTO regulations, no extended period for the changeover, no payment of £39bn to leave. Do you honestly believe that the EU will let it come to that?

Personally I see that range of options as quite appealing compared with some of the alternatives. "No deal is better than a bad deal".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:47 AM

Free trade is the sensible option.
It benefits everyone. EU's objections are purely political and not for the benefit of its citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:43 AM

If Europe does not drop it's bullying posturing and idle threats we are likely to walk away. This has zero benefit for anyone

You may read the entrails differently, but it looks much more likely to me the UK will be locked out of the room with a no-deal the only thing on the table unless they come back with something sensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:38 AM

DMcG,
I don't think you have, Keith. I am aware you accept we might a few years of paying over the odds and then move on to bright and glorious future. I don't know anywhere you have recognised if you are wrong that nirvana might not exist, ever. But free to do so now.


I do, and I believe I have already said that in my own words, but I am strongly of the opinion that even though there will be costs, it is the best option for the long term benefit of this country.


Steve,
It's a lie that I see you are still falling for.

So anyone who disagrees with you is just a gullible dupe.

I put DMcG's question to you in reverse,
"Now, is any other Remainer prepared to admit they might be wrong and Brexit could turn out to be one of the best things Britain has ever done, or not too bad at least?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:38 AM

Only history can decide if we were right. Not Stanron (so get over it, Stanron). Only history written by living historians in the last 30 years in books on the shelves of reputable bookshops, presumably

Books written in the last 30 years will be able to tell us whether the decision to leave the EU was correct?
That is an amazing idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:33 AM

Only history can decide if we were right. Not Stanron (so get over it, Stanron). Only history written by living historians in the last 30 years in books on the shelves of reputable bookshops, presumably. Geoffrey Wheatcroft will supply a list of valid ones if we ask him nicely. We don't want none of them vulgar, fraudulent buggers involved, do we?

I prefer a more interventionist approach than waiting for "history" to decide. We can't afford to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:29 AM

Now, is any leaver prepared to admit they might be wrong and Brexit could turn out to be one of the worst things Britain has ever done?

My vote may have been cast for the wrong option. There is always a possibility that Brexit will not be of long term benefit to the UK, but I don't believe that will be the case.

As to "one of the worst things Britain has ever done", what are we comparing it with?
Empire building
Slavery
Trying to quell uprisings in our colonies (including America)
Attacking Germany
Turning Australia into a penal colony
Inventing sports so that other countries can feel superior to us
There's so much to choose from.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:27 AM

"Not on a 'whim' but in the belief that the future of the UK should not be dictated by the EU."

Which is a tragically mistaken belief. The EU dictates nothing. Policies are made by the member states' elected representatives with methods just as democratic as any policies made in tbe UK by the UK government. And we have a veto over the more important decisions in any case. For example, there is no EU army because the UK has vetoed it. "Being dictated to by the EU" was one of the biggest lies of the leave campaign (optional add-on: "by unelected bureaucrats", an even bigger lie). It's a lie that I see you are still falling for. Unfortunately, that deficit in your education and that of millions of others, which was so easily exploited by the ruthless liars of the leave campaign, is the reason we are in this unholy and incurable mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:27 AM

I don't think you have, Keith. I am aware you accept we might a few years of paying over the odds and then move on to bright and glorious future. I don't know anywhere you have recognised if you are wrong that nirvana might not exist, ever. But free to do so now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:14 AM

If Europe does not drop it's bullying posturing and idle threats we are likely to walk away. This has zero benefit for anyone. Every threat from the EU can be countered by one of equal severity from the UK.
The EU is scared to negotiate because others may be queuing up behind.
A federalist dream for some europeans is a nightmare for others. It should have remained EFTA. The extra bells and whistles are a cacophony.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:07 AM

DMcG,
Now, is any leaver prepared to admit they might be wrong and Brexit could turn out to be one of the worst things Britain has ever done?

Of course, and I believe I have said that in my own words, but I am strongly of the opinion that even though there will be costs, it is the best option for the long term benefit of this country.

Only history can decide who is right.
Until we have left there is no way of knowing.
As of now we do not even know what the deal will be, so let's not be abusive to people just for holding a different opinion.

all the data in it can (such as forecasts and analyses and statements from businesses and other governments)

Forecasts and analysis of what? We do not have a deal to analyse yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:45 AM

I think the answer, Stanron, is that I am interpreting 'right' in the sense of 'in the best interests of the country'. No other "rightness" matters to me.

Nigel: I am sure many people looked for as much evidence as they could before the vote, and completely accept you did so.

But I was referring more to "get over it' stance which will not seriously consider any forecasts or analysis or warnings from business or other countries like Japan that have occurred after the vote: all stoutly ignored by the Leavers.

Let me offer a bargain. I freely admit, here and now, that I might be completely wrong and Brexit could turn out to be the best thing the country has ever done. I will, however, be able to take some comfort in how well everyone is doing.

Now, is any leaver prepared to admit they might be wrong and Brexit could turn out to be one of the worst things Britain has ever done?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:30 AM

If it suits the argument the leftards will make 2+2=5

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:26 AM

DMcG wrote: Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else, Stanron, knows if they got the right answer.

Is it me, or is everyone else stupid?

It was a referendum. It put a question to the public and got an answer. By the very nature of a referendum that answer, whatever it turned out to be, is RIGHT. Your attempts to prove the answer 'wrong' are laughable.