BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 03:47 PM

"Anything to add to the actual subject? "

One could well ask this of the gnome. He rarely if ever makes any kind of sensible contribution. He comes across as a frustrated little terrier, permanently snapping at heels. He follows his little pack of mudrats around, trying to provoke with his gormless posts. Best ignored I would say!

Anyway back to brexit. Labour seems to be distracted:

"Observer rent-a-conspiracy writer Carole Cadwalladr has stuck her foot in it yet again by incredibly suggesting that Anti-Semistism in the Labour Party is the product of paid Tory trolls and her favourite bogeymen Cambridge Analytica."

" Peter Willsman refuses to answer questions from @talkRADIO as he ignores calls from Corbyn allies to stand down today"

All this and Corbyn as leader. Oh Dear!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 02:35 PM

Nothing to say about the ad hominem attacks by your stable mate Iains, Nigel? Anything to add to the actual subject? Or are you just avoiding any real discussion because you are starting to realise what a disaster brexit could be?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 02:11 PM

Those appear to be the genuine concerns of the Dover District Council. On what grounds should the BBC decide against publishing that that is the Council's view?

If you are right about the delays on France being as bad, that simply makes Just In Time processes even harder?

(Neat little ad hominem on the BBC by the way!)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 01:51 PM

Another issue yet to be resolved, which will be pertinent to some, revolves around the future use of the EHIC.

Time is pressing and this particular issue is yet to be sorted out,

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 01:51 PM

The French will not doubt have similar queues with the additional aggravation of simultaneously being targeted by illegal immigrants trying to hitch a ride to the promised land.
More BBC scare stories - so much for being apolitical !!

Does that Lineker fellow wot flogs crisps set the policies as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 01:25 PM

Talking about the formal theory of rhetoric like ad hominem attacks is all very well, but remember we are talking about life after Brexit. To that end, what are people's thoughts on Operation Brock fears in Kent? They only arise if we have a no deal {or we have a deal but there is some other border issue), and the duration is then dependent on how quickly we can get other mechanisms in place. The Council, who are the ones who have to implement it, after all, fear it might take years to resolve. Have our leavers anything to offer apart from hope should we have the no-deal that Nigel says is now looking more attractive than before?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 12:08 PM

I do not "lionise" Owen, but he was a Labour Foreign Secretary and he used to be a Europhile.
You are a fool to dismiss his views out of hand, and they are widely held anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 11:37 AM

While I don't take wiki as the absolute source that some do, it may be worth quoting:

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself

Feel free to list ad hominem attacks that you believe I have made here.
I believe it will be a very short list.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 10:56 AM

There was no ad hominem. You can't "ad hominem" someone not here who you're talking ABOUT, Nigel, only someone you're talking TO on the forum. And please don't make me list all your latest ad hominems here. Move on, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 09:51 AM

"And, "populist Farage-equivalent" parties will not be lefties."

Lets not mince words Keith, what they will be, and already are, is fascists.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 09:16 AM

https://order-order.com/2018/07/18/andrea-jenkyns-point-decided-brexit-meant-remain/

STUNNING!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 09:11 AM

My post, obviously, referred to Steve Shaw's comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 09:10 AM

What an excellent example of ad hominem.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 09:03 AM

Another gem from Guido(the man with his ear to the ground, unlike the mudrats)
"UKIP which post-referendum was dormant is back from the dead, seeing its support rise from 3% to 8% in recent polls. Hardcore leavers don’t seem to have been put off by the alt-right turn the party has taken under Gerard Batten. The spoiler ramifications of this resurrection for Tory MPs with small majorities is an horrific nightmare for CCHQ. Zombie UKIP candidates with no hope of victory could still deprive Tory candidates of seats.

The prospect of Nigel Farage returning to the political stage and re-energising UKIP with a betrayal narrative with him as a De Gaulle type national saviour still seems far fetched to many pundits. Swing-seat Tory and Labour MPs will however dread the thought of Nigel back on BBC Question Time tub thumping"

Fantastic News! Maybe he will stop the great betrayal!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 08:58 AM

David Owen, once a knobhead, always a knobhead, Gang Of Four opportunist who helped to keep Thatcher in power to wreck the country, is hardly a man any of us should be attending to. He has as much credibility as Guido bloody Fawkes. Trouble with you is that you lionise anyone at all who, like a stopped clock that's right twice a day, happens to coincide with your prejudices. Some of us look for credentials first.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 08:40 AM

He (Owen) said there would be dire consequences across the country if elitist politicians were seen to be ignoring the will of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 07:18 AM

After two years I don't see any leftie populist Farage-equivalent starting the popular uprising that Keith keeps threatening if we abandon brexit.

That is because the betrayal has not happened yet and may not.
Labour's Lord Owen expresses the same warning today in the Telegraph.
And, "populist Farage-equivalent" parties will not be lefties.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 07:07 AM

Well I'm glad you think we're all uninformed, Nigel.
Read it as you will, you usually do.

I said "equally uninformed". I do not accept that those who voted Brexit were uninformed, but am putting those who voted Remain on an equal footing.
How far up or down the scale you choose to put everyone is up to you. Just don't start from the belief that one side of the argument had superiority in the level of information they had chosen to find before making their vote.

Your comments about the 'silly season', apart from trying to denigrate anyone who takes a view opposed to yours, only highlights that you have a singular view about when the silly season starts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 07:06 AM

I predict May will   be out on her ear for betrayal of brexit. Then we will see some real action.
Appeasement did not work in the thirties - It will not work now!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 06:54 AM

Well I'm glad you think we're all uninformed, Nigel. What a cracking good argument for not having that referendum! Incidentally, what's this about "unable to accept the result?" After two years I don't see any leftie populist Farage-equivalent starting the popular uprising that Keith keeps threatening if we abandon brexit... Arguing vehemently against what is going on is not the same as "not accepting the result." It isn't August, aka the Silly Season, until tomorrow, Nigel, so stop being premature.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 06:38 AM

“Trust not in Sprites nor the motivations of a Gnome.”
? Jefferson Smith, Strange Places

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 06:33 AM

. . . to continue
. . . opposed by the equally uninformed, unable to explain why they were underrepresented in a national referendum, of which they are unable at accept the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 06:08 AM

Best definition i have seen for ages.

Brexit (n)

The undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 06:06 AM

The two professionals at diagnosis:

Just not worth engaging with, Steve. Honest. It's like talking to Keith but with moo swings.

The mood swings are mental illness, Dave. Seriously. Seen it just like him in one or two of my mates...

Remember mudrats: Amateurs built the ark, professionals the Titanic

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 06:00 AM

Remember, you actually accuse Labour MPs of being Right Wing!

You have extreme Far Left views, and it is sad that with your collective of comrades you can dominate discussion here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 05:52 AM

It is extreme, nasty personal attack to say we must have mental issues just because we contradict you.
Also, I am not right wing. I am at the centre and voted Labour when they occupied that position (and won elections.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 04:52 AM

"So you both switch to personal attack because you can not answer the facts."

So you haven't read any of Iains' posts in the last few days (especially), eh, Keith? Or do you share Iains' puerile philosophy, inherited sheep-like from Teribus, that insults and abuse from you right-wingers is always justified because you're always right and that anyone who demurs from your prejudices is automatically an idiot who deserves heaps of scorn? The pair of you seriously need to grow up and get a life. And YOU seriously need to reconsider who you get in bed with. 'Bye!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 04:16 AM

"They threw principle out of the window"

"The Labour Party were being held by the short and curlies and you know it."

No! They were being held accountable for being liars.
Remember this?

2:01AM BST 27 Sep 2007
"We will put it — the EU Constitution — to the British people in a referendum and campaign whole-heartedly for a 'Yes' vote." — Labour

"We will have a referendum on the constitution in any event — and that is a Government promise." — Tony Blair, The Sun, May 13, 2005

"Well, if it were necessary to hold a referendum, of course [we wouldn't hesitate]. I suspect that the best deal for Britain will be won, where we will get what we want, at this summit." — Gordon Brown, GMTV, June 19, 2007

"We would not agree to a deal that crossed the red lines, therefore, we did not believe a referendum would be necessary." — Later that day, Downing Street website

"The manifesto is what we put to the public. We've got to honour that manifesto." — Gordon Brown, BBC 1 Politics Show, June 24, 2007


You are not doing very well supporting labour, are you? In fact you seem to be agreeing with me!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 04:01 AM

So you both switch to personal attack because you can not answer the facts.
Fact. Labour overwhelmingly voted for a referendum.
Fact. The electorate overwhelmingly wanted one, especially Labour's core voters in their heartland constituencies.

As you freely admitted Steve, Labour would have been "toast" had it refused to promise a referendum in its manifesto.
They were every bit as afraid of UKIP as the Tories were.

Labour is still as split as the Tories over Brexit, and also split over anti-Semitism even on its front bench (see today's news).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 08:02 PM

The mood swings are mental illness, Dave. Seriously. Seen it just like him in one or two of my mates...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 07:21 PM

Just not worth engaging with, Steve. Honest. It's like talking to Keith but with moo swings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 06:20 PM

Complete nonsense. Even if one smidgeon of that was true, how does the utterly disreputable, shambolic, rudderless and totally-split asunder Tory party of the last three years measure up to that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 06:10 PM

Realpolitik is a wonderful thing. Labour are a bunch of hypocrites. They had to follow the electorate's wishes or they would have to find a real job.

You freely admit to supporting a bunch of wasters that throw principles out of the window? SHAME on you!
I fink the only one exhibiting dishonesty here is yourself. SHAME on you again.

The only thing that comes out of this sad saga is that labour would sell their grandmothers for a mess of pottage and honour is something they sell to their mates, definitely not integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:57 PM

Most Labour MPs voted for a referendum because they knew that the party would be toast unless they did. So they thought. Indeed, even had every Labour MP voted against, there would still have been a referendum and the party would have gone down the pan. They threw principle out of the window. You and Keith have shown yourselves to be completely disingenuous and totally dishonest about this. The Labour Party were being held by the short and curlies and you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:52 PM

" Too many people in the UK are scared that their children will achieve more than they have."
Actually recent trends suggest the opposite. The penalties exerted by the EU stifling economic growth in the UK means that this present generation retiring and retired will likely achieve far more than their children.Thereby reversing a trend built over several generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:46 PM

"I would say that any prime minister who inflicted a referendum on the country because his own right-wing backbenchers were snapping at his heels and because he was running scared of Nigel Farage was acting in his party's self-interest and against the country's interests and is therefore not to be trusted."

Tell me! Did the little fabrication above start with "once upon a time"?

As Nigel pointed out many moons ago:
The referendum was not called by the coalition. It was called by parliament. The coalition only allowed the referendum to take place once it had been voted on in parliament. The referendum vote had massive support from the labour party (your 'second-largest party'). The vote to hold a referendum was passed (ayes) 544 (noes) 53. (so with 650 MPs, if the only ones to abstain were from Labour, and all the votes against were from Labour that's only (650-544) 106 Labour MPs who didn't vote for a referendum (either by voting against, or by abstention). That means (and I'll spell it out for you) that at least 150 Labour MPs voted to hold a referendum on the possibility of the UK leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:37 PM

I would love to be a citizen of a United States of Europe. It would be a tremendous economic power, with a vibrant and diverse culture. The idea may be ahead of the electorate, that is a problem, but hopefully the electorate can be lead towards a brighter future. The UK electorate, not so much. With them, entrenched prejudices, and a lack of ambition, are holding them back. Too many people in the UK are scared that their children will achieve more than they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:00 PM

I would say that any prime minister who inflicted a referendum on the country because his own right-wing backbenchers were snapping at his heels and because he was running scared of Nigel Farage was acting in his party's self-interest and against the country's interests and is therefore not to be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 02:14 PM

"The way that consensus works is that if agreement cannot be reached - eg by referendum, then the proposal is brought back and the areas if contention are looked at, and allowances are made before bringing it back for agreement"

You may wish to talk about a consensus but unfortunately the issue at stake is the result of a referendum. i.e a simple majority, even of one suffices. Therefore it does not matter a hoot is the losers regard the issue as contentious. They lost.
    Redrafting a proposal to hide it's true impact and resubmitting it to the electorate within a very short time frame illustrates perfectly just how little the EU can be trusted. Change the wording slightly, bamboozle the gullible and steamroller it through is how I regard the process. Blatant dishonesty that you may find acceptable, but I do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 02:02 PM

Of course, there are some people who think that in the EU all decisions should be only what the UK wants, and they tend to be nasty UKIP and Tory types.

And Jeremy Corbyn?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:52 PM

No referendum is "democracy in action."
A bald statement with zero context, therefore meaningless.
Try again!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:50 PM

"Yes. the vote is repeated until the right answer pops up.On three occasions – Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty – voters have initially rejected an EU treaty only to vote in favour of it in a second referendum."

The way that consensus works is that if agreement cannot be reached - eg by referendum, then the proposal is brought back and the areas if contention are looked at, and allowances are made before bringing it back for agreement. That way a flawed proposal can be improved rather than rejected. Of course, there are some people who think that in the EU all decisions should be only what the UK wants, and they tend to be nasty UKIP and Tory types.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:44 PM

That settles that then.


In other words, bloody Nora... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:16 PM

Yes it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:15 PM

"No referendum is "democracy in action."
I think we can safely ignore the rambling. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:08 PM

No referendum is "democracy in action."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 11:56 AM

@David Carter. I hope you find it all informative. The various position papers suggest to me the EU keeps it's forward planning six jumps ahead of the electorate.
Financial harmony and rocketing towards a United States of Europe is not a future I welcome.
This assumes of course that the disparities between the economies of north and southern Europe do not crash the Euro or that forthcoming elections do not create further tensions, leading to breakup.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 11:33 AM

Thanks for the heads up Iains, I have completed the questionairre. No doubt my answers would not please you. Regarding the reflection paper, I have as yet read only the abstract, I will read the pdf later. But the three bullet points represent a genuine way forward towards a more integrated and more harmonious Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 11:23 AM

" Large-scale policy reform is always subject to veto by even a single demurring state."
Yes. the vote is repeated until the right answer pops up.On three occasions – Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty – voters have initially rejected an EU treaty only to vote in favour of it in a second referendum.

In the time frame concerned, this does not appear to be democracy in action to me.

" But the Commission can force no major policy adjustments on unwilling member states, and, to suggest otherwise, as neither of those links actually do as it happens, is just silly scaremongering."

Funny! How did the above happen? a little judicious arm twisting behind the scenes mayhap?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 11:12 AM

The European Commission can do no more than aspire. The power to accept or reject its aspirations lies in the hands of member states, as the second link makes clear. Large-scale policy reform is always subject to veto by even a single demurring state. There are massive stresses and strains within the eurozone. The Commission can point to them and suggest ways out. But the Commission can force no major policy adjustments on unwilling member states, and, to suggest otherwise, as neither of those links actually do as it happens, is just silly scaremongering.