BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 05:59 PM

Still not sure if Iains thinks she should be entitled to vote,

Of course not. She's a woman, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 08:19 PM

Oh, don't you worry, Nigel. I don't do belief. Belief is confined to your side. You believe that we have no control and need to take it back (though we have enthusiastically espoused 97% of all European laws and, indeed, have played a major part in drawing them up). You believe that immigration is out of control, even though the very sniff of brexit has caused EU immigration to plummet and that non-EU immigration is greater, eminently controllable but has not been controlled. You believe that we can go back to our post-empire sick man of Europe days and force the rest of the planet, you know, China, India, the US, to come crawling to our doors to make fabulous trade deals (you seem to have forgotten how long such things take, and you also seem to have forgotten that we don't make stuff any more, thanks to Maggie, that we can sell). You believe that the EU will come grovelling to us to sell us their goods and that we can somehow hold them to ransom by threatening to buy yankee GM shit and chlorine chickens. Like people of faith, Nigel, your head is in the clouds. Gritty reality has evaded you. And one more thing. You don't really understand how our adversarial realpolitik parliamentary system works, do you? Have you actually paid attention to all those Labour and Tory MPs who have said out loud that they voted for the referendum/article 50 against their consciences? All those who have lamented that, in spite of their instincts, are in hock to their leave-constituents? You are the ultimate Tory denial merchant, Nigel, you know that brexit is a bloody rotten idea but, in line with your fellow-travellers, you hold to your brave-facism. I'll give you a few months. Even you will have to come round sooner rather than later. Use your brain, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 08:35 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 08:19 PM
Oh, don't you worry, Nigel. I don't do belief. Belief is confined to your side.

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:55 AM
Because I believe it will impact hugely on any trade deal we manage to achieve with them.

Contradicting yourself yet once more.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 09:08 PM

Well, Nige, you and I should be in bed really (two singles OK with you?), but tomorrow I'll explain how I can say I believe yet not do belief. If I can be arsed. It'll only be you who's bothered, but I'm nice like that. In the meantime, perhaps you'd care to address the fact that your head is apparently permanently situated in any cumulus congestus that happens to be passing your way apropos of the nitty-gritty of the brexit future that you are so lovingly clinging on to. Nighty night.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 09:20 PM

perhaps you'd care to address the fact that your head is apparently permanently situated in any cumulus congestus

Better than being between the two portions of Gluteus maximus

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 09:53 PM

They are not "portions." They are entirely separate and complete glutei maximi. You have a complete one on each side, Nigel (one hopes). Only if someone has taken the blade to you in order to obtain a nice slice of rump steak would you be left with a portion. So would he, come to think of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:22 AM

Apropos of only voting if you pay income tax.

I felt sure this must have been considered in the voting reforms of 1832, 1872, 1918 and others. This led me to a very good summary of the changes in The History of the Parliamentary Franchise from the House of Commons library. And all the debates have been scanned and can be read at Hansard Millbank Systems, which I admit surprised me a bit. Unfortunately they are simply scans, so they are not easy to browse: you have to go by page number, not date, for example. You are invited to try your luck.

Paying income tax is broadly similar to the pre 1832 scot and lot qualification:

"The scot and lot qualification was based on the householder’s payment (scot) of a share (lot) of local poor and church rates. The potwalloper qualification was a householder who was self-sustaining (they made no claim on poor relief) and who had their own hearth on which they could cook or boil (wallop) a pot."

Suffice it to say that Parliament decided that was not the right way of determining who could and who could not vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:46 AM

"I am intrigued, Iains. My wife left work at 60 but does not draw any pension or have any other source of income until she is 67."

The standard Personal Allowance is £11,500
Standard Pension is around £6350
Anyone on the basic pension is a long way from any tax liability.
Therefore an argument about claiming or not claiming a pension is totally spurious.

No pay, No Say.


Greg. Will we ever have anything other than nonsense posted by you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:20 AM

Anyone on the basic pension is a long way from any tax liability.
Therefore an argument about claiming or not claiming a pension is totally spurious

Well, to begin with she will get other pensions at 67, not just the state one. Secondly, I was not talking about the pension as such, but merely stressing that currently she has no income, and will not for a few years.

So she fits into your "No pay, no say" criterion. The reason I asked was more psychological than anything else. It is very easy to talk in terms of generalities, but some people find it more difficult when you get down to the specific. Nevertheless, not you. "My wife should not be permitted to vote, pure and simple", according to you. It was a position explicitly rejected by Parliament when Disraeli suggested it, but hey, when it comes to Parliamentary supremacy, Iains' views trumps that every time...

But I wonder why you are so unambitious? Surely the next logical step is to have the number of votes proportional to the amount of income tax you pay? Then we could set the clock way back before the reform bills.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:21 AM

Sorry about the italics.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:36 AM

Sorry for the third post in a row, but I will call a personal halt on this diversion now. We are talking, believe it or not, about post Brexit life. Not disenfranchement ideas that Steve never suggested, not the 19th century reforms, not when-I-rule-the-world imaginings, but actual events. And I gave a list of them specially that are purely factual and do not rely on forecasts or conjecture (not that those are bad things even though they have limitations - in the real world they are what 'planning' relies on).

Let's stick to actual news. I got waylaid, but will try to avoid it next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:53 AM

It makes a pleasant change from babblings on weeds, doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:41 AM

Well allow me to combine both strands, Iains. Before this country sees any benefits from brexit, if indeed it ever does, we'll all have long been pushing up daisies (Bellis perennis L.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:12 AM

I don't think anyone saw anything ageist in Steve's comment but you Iains. Is it another case of different language of yet another attempt to derail a discussion that is not going your way? Either way we are better ignoring it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 09:42 AM

Well gnomie I suspect besides being short and fat you must have very dodgy vision. I recommend a trip to specsavers. They'll see you alright. Or perhaps you have wandered off to another planet or deliberately misinterpret language?

Also you and your fellow mudrats are past masters at the art of derailing posts by babbling irrelevancies. I have not yet derailed a discussion unlike your good selves!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:23 AM

A very erudite response as usual. There was nothing ageist said and you know it which is why you resort to abuse.

Now, how about those positive reports about brexit that you must be able to find. Surely someone as anti-EU as you must want to redress the balance?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 10:33 AM

For the gnome:
Courtesy of shaw." Don't forget to factor in that 38%, largely of oldies who won't be affected... "


http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/after-the-referendum-the-ugly-scourge-of-ageism/18499#.WoGyr3zLjIU

http://uk.businessinsider.com/elderly-people-are-suffering-ageist-abuse-after-brexit-2016-7?r=US&IR=T
even the gruniard
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jun/27/brexit-family-rifts-parents-referendum-conflict-betrayal

still in denial?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 11:22 AM

I'm an oldie.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 11:30 AM

I have not yet derailed a discussion

Inanes is channelling Trump........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:16 PM

"I'm an oldie", that surely is the least of your many problems.
Being a well educated scientist, biologist, botanist, ex teacher, former union activist, that does not do belief, and confuses fact with fiction and weaponises whimsy. You have Dissociative identity disorder
perhaps?

Greg. I wonder why you bother to post? I cannot believe anyone takes your stupid, foolish, pointless, brainless, mindless, senseless, doltish, idiotic, imbecilic, insane, ridiculous, ludicrous, absurd, preposterous, nonsensical, fatuous, silly, childish, infantile, puerile, immature, juvenile, inane, witless, half-baked, empty-headed, unintelligent, half-witted, slow-witted, weak-minded; crazy, dumb, cretinous, moronic, gormless, daft,dumb-ass,chowderheaded scribings seriously!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:27 PM

So Boris is to give a speech on Wednesday that "will be seeking to unite Remainers and Leavers" according to 'insiders' as reported by the BBC.

That Boris does not exactly have the best reputation for repairing divisions is not ideal, but let's assume he is playing a straight bat and is open and honest. What would he have to say and do to have a chance of getting me onside?

Firstly, avoid all platitudes. There is no point saying things like "we all want what is best for Britain". Of course we do. We just fundamentally disagree what that is.

Second, avoid patronising. "Don't worry about it, it will be fine" is no good.

Third, say how the Irish border will be resolved. Not things like declarations beforehand and afterwards which can only say what I claim to be transporting, not what I am, or any other scheme that is equally obviously flawed, or puts a hard border in place. And none of the guff about we won't have a border but the EU might. They will only have one if we make it necessary. Having a border at all is the issue and we choose that path that says whether one is necessary or not.

Fourthly, provide proper forecasts of what will happen that do not, like Minford's, tolerate the demise of our faming and manufacturing as an acceptable loss, and where the assumptions are published along with the figures.

Fifthly, write into the withdrawal bill protections for worker's rights and the NHS. We could retain them however we leave Brexit, so we should not be weakening them as part of the process.

Sixthly, actually face up to the concerns of the remainers, don't avoid talking about them.

Seventh ... oh, six should be enough to convince him I will take some persuading.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:45 PM

And, oh, I am quite happy if the leavers want to write out what they think he needs to say so they are willing to share in this national reunion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 01:01 PM

I wonder who got a Thesaurus for Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 01:13 PM

Now if somehow he could only get a brain.......

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 01:24 PM

No matter how you look at it, it is still not an ageist comment nor will it substitute for your lack of ability to produce any good news reports about brexit.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:02 PM

The good news is it has not yet been cancelled. The bad news is we are still on the magic roundabout.

Raggy. google is far more efficient. Copy and paste. Any other way is a wasted effort!

"Now if somehow he could only get a brain....... "
Be careful greg. That mirror can only stand so much abuse!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:31 PM

Just as I thought then. I am very surprised that none of your fellow brexit supporters has helped you in finding some positive forecasts about what will happen when we leave. Could it be because there are none?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:43 PM

Even Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't talk about the Minford forecasts as much as he used to.   Good news for the City, so that's great.

However, every other sector loses out massively., which isn't a very good story to promote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 04:49 AM

Remoaners must be getting worried. They have added death threats to their arsenal. Nice People!???????????


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5354747/Brexiteer-80-sent-death-threat-voting-leave-EU.html

Wishing someone a cancerous new year shows the true nature of remoaners. Feeling proud boys & gals?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 05:38 AM

"Remoaners must be getting worried. They have added death threats to their arsenal. Nice People!???????????"

Several things. It isn't "they." It was one person. Shall I helpfully redraft your sentence for you?

"In isolated cases remainers are resorting to tactics such as death threats, in a single case that we know of targeting an 80-year-old. There is, clearly, no evidence that this is anything other than the work of a criminal mind and does not in any way represent the general demeanour of remainers, any more than the mindset of the Yorkshire Ripper represented the mindset of British men in general."

I think that you should also include the rather unpleasant Zac Goldsmith and the editor of the Daily Mail in your "nice people" characterisation...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 05:44 AM

Meant to ask Iains there if he knows how many of the other 16,141,240 remain voters have sent death threats or wished someone a cancerous new year. Clearly, if it's a majority, I'd be obliged to accept that little "they" in his post. Otherwise...

Iains...?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 06:50 AM

Still no good news then?

I was once wished a slow and painful death by testicular cancer by someone on here who was very much a brexiteer. The post was of course removed and the poster has since passed away. I guess with your logic, Iains, it is OK for me to say that the brexit team are also guilty of such despicable behavior.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 10:16 AM

To date the lowlife behaviour seems restricted to remoaners.
I see shaw is still picking on grammar-what a sad little fellow!
If he has to resort to such devices to massage his ego it says little for the man, doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 10:46 AM

To date the lowlife behaviour seems restricted to remoaners.

Like killing a young mother for her pro-immigration stance for instance?

You are desperately trying to divert attention away from the simple fact that there seems to be no good forecasts about post brexit Britain. It is both blatantly obvious and not working.

So, let us try to address the issue in question again. Aside from Minford, who is being dropped by even the most rabid brexiteers, where are the forecasts of how rosy everything is going to be when we leave?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 10:50 AM

Incidentally, the 'dontcha' affectation, amongst others, was also used by the poster who wished me a slow and painful death in order to try and seem somehow more down to earth and in touch with the common man. Didn't work then. Still dosn't work.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:54 PM

I do not feel the need to desperately try anything laddie!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:57 PM

"To date the lowlife behaviour seems restricted to remoaners."

Standard Teribians horse-shit

I have, on numerous occasions, been told by BrexShiteer-Nutters that, as a Remainer, I'm a 'traitor' who should be 'arrested, marched out at dawn, and shot for treason'.

Your bunch of cunts started it, fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 02:47 PM

Backwoodsman. Backward in all respects and judging by the restricted language either a bad case of tourettes or simply retarded.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:10 PM

If you do not feel the need to divert attention from the lack of positive forecasts then don't do it. Just show us where something good is being said about our future.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:29 PM

If you can read this in 10 minutes you are still alive!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:51 PM

Read what?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 07:56 PM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:10 PM
If you do not feel the need to divert attention from the lack of positive forecasts then don't do it. Just show us where something good is being said about our future.
DtG

The benefits of Brexit need us to escape from the EU. At that point we will start to see the benefits. Those in favour of leaving the EU could give all sorts of predictions of possible benefits, but you wouldn't believe them.
Much as those in favour of Brexit didn't believe the comments of 'Project Fear' quoted by the remain campaign before the referendum.
At least we can look back at those 'predictions' and know for certain that they were a load of tosh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:03 PM

"The benefits of Brexit need us to escape from the EU. At that point we will start to see the benefits.....

"At least we can look back at those 'predictions' and know for certain that they were a load of tosh..."

Facts, Nige? Or opinions dressed up as facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:43 AM

Nigel. All the reports about the negative aspects aspects of credit are forecasts. All I am asking for are positive forecasts to balance that out. To date no one has been able to provide them. Can you?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:55 AM

And it is important to remember that the economy is not the only thing that matters. Rees Mogg told the select committee that standards could match India . So if you had him as PM, and have excluded protection of such things from the withdrawal bill and have May refusing to say the NHS is protected from trade deals, what predictions would you make?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 03:59 AM

I see yer man Bozzer is trying to do what the rest of you are failing at and at least pretending to come up with something positive.

Boris Johnson: Brexit is a reason for hope not fear

Whether it is a load of old bollocks remains to be seen of course but at least he is trying. Very trying at times.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:25 AM

From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel. All the reports about the negative aspects aspects of credit are forecasts. All I am asking for are positive forecasts to balance that out. To date no one has been able to provide them. Can you?

I'm not an economist, I don't provide forecasts. But the negative aspect forecasts are being provided by the same people who forecast that a 60 billion black hole in the economy, an emergency budget, and massive unemployment would immediately follow a vote to leave. So I don't really think that forecasts help that much.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:55 AM

But the negative aspect forecasts are being provided by the same people who forecast that a 60 billion black hole in the economy, an emergency budget, and massive unemployment would immediately follow a vote to leave.

If I remember rightly it was George Osborne that forecast that and Philip Hammond confirmed it. Do you mean to say that Tory politicians have lied to us? Surely not! Besides, that nice Mr Gove had already told us we should take no notice of experts. Good to see he was proved right

How economists are being proved right on Brexit

Oh, sorry, hang on. I must have mis-read that. Surely it is not saying that Gove was talking a load of bollocks as well is it? :-)

Still waiting for that feel good factor...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 05:20 AM

I may as well ask -

Those in favour of leaving the EU could give all sorts of predictions of possible benefits, but you wouldn't believe them.

Well, why don't they even try?

DtG