BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Allan Conn
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 02:23 PM

"Before the referendum the Scots held a referendum on whether they wished to be a separate state, or part of the union. As a result they are included in the UK for what happens now with Brexit."

They did vote to stay in the union with at least part of the argument which was put to them being that staying in the UK was the only way they could guarantee they retain membership of the EU. How does that equate with what has happened since? Secondly democracy doesn't end there and in the last Scottish elections (after being pressed to do so by especially the Scottish Tories) the SNP confirmed in their manifesto under what circumstances they would consider having another vote. The two examples given were if there was a substantial and sustained swing in the polls towards independence - or if there was a major change in curcumstances with the example quoted in the manifesto being if Scotland is taken out of the EU against the wishes of the people of Scotland. The SNP won the election on that basis. The Scottish people then voted pretty solidly to stay in the EU. The Holyrood Parliament then later voted in principle giving the Scottish gvt the mandate to hold a second vote. Sturgeon has softened the position where the mandate stated if we were taken out of the EU there would be another vote to the present position of we will see what the deal is like before deciding if there is another vote or not. She has the mandate from both the Scottish people and the Scottish parliament. Some folks might not like that but we all have votes where we don't like the results.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 01:52 PM

Steve,
So it's do as I say, not as I do, eh, Keith?

No. I posted about an historical precedent for the Establishment being out of touch with the will of the people such as we have seen over Brexit.
I have not indulged in random posts about food or football or any other irrelevance like you people do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 01:44 PM

Whoops - sorry Nige - link to another argument
I chose one of two articles fro last year saying that Brexit will adversely effect the economies of Britain and the E.U.
THis was claimed to have been confirmed in this morning's paper
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 01:25 PM

Not even if it means having fun?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 01:22 PM

It's not compulsory to jump through The Big Kid's hoops.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 12:57 PM

So it's do as I say, not as I do, eh, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 12:39 PM

Steve,
You were moaning this very morning about us strutting, arrogant types derailing threads, Keith. So you've changed your mind about that now, have you?

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 12:18 PM

Maybe he meant song and dance. It would match the sentiment of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 11:42 AM

"Singers and Songs of County Clare"
Doesn't seem to mention Brexit though.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 11:33 AM

Reported in The Irish Times his morning Nigel
OLD NEWS it seems
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:46 AM

Jim:
Which assessment is that?
We can hardly discuss it if we don't know what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:43 AM

You were moaning this very morning about us strutting, arrogant types derailing threads, Keith. So you've changed your mind about that now, have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:38 AM

An assessment published today reports that Brexit will sriouly damages the economies of both Britain and the E.U.
Cutting noses off to spite faces writ large
Given the Carillion catastrophe, things really don't auger well for those who will be forced to pick up the tab
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:35 AM

DMcG
it was between one part of the Establishment (Churchill) and another part (Halifax and co), with 'the people' hardly getting a look in as usual.
Wiki,
"Halifax's implication was that if Churchill would not accept an attempt at peace, he would be forced to resign. If Halifax had resigned, most likely Chamberlain would follow, and then, Churchill would have faced a parliamentary revolt from the Conservative Party in the House of Commons, which could have led to his resignation as Prime Minister and the re-appointment of Chamberlain or possibly to the appointment of Halifax.
Faced with the threat of Halifax's resignation Churchill retreated from his hawkish position:"

That strongly suggests that most of the Establishment was with Halifax.

Churchill wrote, " I was sure that every Minister was ready to be killed quite soon, and have all his family and possessions destroyed, rather than give in. In this they represented the House of Commons and almost all the people. It fell to me in these coming days and months to express their sentiments on suitable occasions. This I was able to do because they were mine also. There was a white glow, overpowering, sublime, which ran though our Island from end to end."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1940_War_Cabinet_crisis

There were no anti-war public demonstrations or any indications that the people who would have to do the fighting and suffer the economic consequences did not support the war.
Few would now argue that they were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:28 AM

I didn't get that from the paper, though I have heard that said many times since the vote.

The paper reads to me much more as 'independence light', with the prospect of another vote on independence if it comes to it. For example, it says the powers on fishing should be devolved to Scotland, rarher than retained in Westminster. You may agree or not, but that is hardly scotland trying to control England's fisheries, which tail wagging the dog would suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:02 AM

Agreed heartily, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 08:45 AM

From what I've read of the Scotland paper it appears to be mainly wishful thinking.
The Scots politicians seem to think that 'equal treatment' would mean that on any national (UK) matter Scotland gets an equal say with Wales, England & Northern Ireland, rather than a say proportional to their population.
Before the referendum the Scots held a referendum on whether they wished to be a separate state, or part of the union. As a result they are included in the UK for what happens now with Brexit.
They may wish to be the 'tail that wags the dog' but that isn't going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 08:04 AM

For information to others: I PM'd Keith to try to discuss Halifax without cluttering this thread further. I haven't seen the film but in my admittedly limited understanding of what actually happened it was between one part of the Establishment (Churchill) and another part (Halifax and co), with 'the people' hardly getting a look in as usual.


Enough on that.

Now, any comments on the paper Scotland has just published on what it wants its role to be post Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 07:35 AM

Steve,
And how many threads have you hijacked, Keith, in order to make them about Israel, "Labour antisemitism" or yourself?

None Steve.

DMcG, forgive me if I reply here to your PM.
The central conflict of the film (Darkest Hour), and I am sure the reason it has been made at this time, is that between the people and the Establishment/ruling elite over whether to fight on in an apparently hopeless and inevitably costly war or to accept a peace treaty.

I do not claim historical authenticity for the film and can attest that it was inaccurate in many respects.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 07:05 AM

On the topic of football, very sad to hear this morning of the death of Cyrille Regis. A great player, strong and brave - in every sense - and an inspiration to many.
RIP.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

And how many threads have you hijacked, Keith, in order to make them about Israel, "Labour antisemitism" or yourself?

And I could suggest that the easiest way of blowing a thread off course is to indulge in gratuitous sneery insults and name calling. In that regard, there appears to be a pot here encrusted with a six-inch layer of soot calling some shiny new lacquered kettles black.

In any case, little diversions about food and football never strand threads off-topic for very long. They are just that, diversions. On top of that, they can have the serendipitous effects of annoying troublemakers, blowing away red mist and defusing squabbles. They are all to the good, and I've had a few good recipe ideas from them. It's Blue Monday today, the most miserable day of the year, so let's applaud all attempts to lighten ourselves up!

Raggytash, you'll get your pint back if tonight's result is anything other than a draw. More specifically, I predict Man U 0 Stoke 0.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM

Scotland's Place in Europe

This predicts a big impact of a Hard Brexit on Scotland.

I hope to get a more considered response than 'Scare Story/Project Fear' - but don't really expect it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 05:30 AM

Two questions from Raggytash:
"Why are some people trying to deflect the conversation away from the actual Brexit debate"
"DMcG it's just another feeble attempt to divert the subject of the thread."


From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 08:56 AM

Ah yes, Mike! That goal guarantees that he'll be the new darling of the Kop. Bit of a soft penalty... but I was gobsmacked when Holgate wasn't sent off. I thought that Bobby Firmino reacted like a normal human being in the face of that extreme provocation. Wonder what he said, though. Apparently, neither the ref nor Holgate speak Portuguese, so will we ever know?!
"From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:05 AM

No, no that's far too much work. I just need a pan, a stove and two two other items to make honey."

IHAVE NO IDEA. PERHAPS YOU SHOULD ASK YOURSELF FIRST!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 04:56 AM

Rag,
Why are some people trying to deflect the conversation away from the actual Brexit debate.

Yes. Shame on me for making an interesting historical comparison.
Meanwhile you strutting arrogant people are free to discuss food, football and any whim that occurs to you on any thread you like because you own these threads and the rules do not apply to you.

DMcG, in 1940 the country was virtually bankrupted and still grieving a lost generation of young men from just 22 years previous.
The German peace overtures could not be dismissed out of hand, and many in the Establishment were in favour. The whole of Europe had already fallen.
The issue was sovereignty and trust, as it is now.
As now those issues often seem less important to Establishment and metropolitan types than to ordinary people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 02:23 AM

I stand admonished, Raggytash. Whether anyone did or did not promise such largesse for the NHS is a different thing to whether it will get it. And no one seems to be claiming it will.

There should be plenty to discuss this week though with the second reading of the bill then onto the Lords...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 01:48 AM

Maybe Raggy is referring to a different Gisela Stuart leaflet to the one I was. The words on the poster I meant were exactly as I gave them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:35 PM

Why are some people trying to deflect the conversation away from the actual Brexit debate.

For example, references to WW11. At the present time only about 10% of the population were born prior to 1945. About half of those are old enough to have any memory of that time.

It is totally irrelevant to the current discussion, and with all due respect to those good people they will have, in all probability, shuffled off this mortal coil before it is all done and dusted.

The discussion should remain on what are we, as a nation, going to do about tomorrow. What are we going to do for our children and grandchildren.

Given the current contributions it would seem like SFA!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:28 PM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 05:06 PM

Did you know that there is no entry for gullible in the OED?

An oft quoted 'fact'.
There is an entry for 'gull', and gullible comes under this heading.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 07:43 PM

From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 02:52 PM

You still haven't commented on Gisela Stuart's campaign leaflet which said "Let's give our NHS the 350 million the EU takes every week", if I recall rightly, Nigel.

To quote from one of those taking your side of the argument:
From: Raggytash -
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 04:00
It's strange that you should mention Gisela Stuart this is the exact words she said in relation to the slogan on the Brexit Bus:
"We should give our struggling NHS the 350m we send to the EU every week"
"We should" is not the same as "We will"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 05:42 PM

Try the cambridge one then!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 05:06 PM

Did you know that there is no entry for gullible in the OED?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 04:43 PM

Unfortunately gullibility is not sufficient reason to disenfranchise a person. Perhaps it should be!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM

It is not a matter of when these organisations were founded. It is what agreements, protocols and mechanisms have been added in the past 40 years that need to be revisited.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 04:18 PM

and still no-one can show that any of those campaigning for leave intended that this was a promise of what the country would do with 350 million a week post Brexit.

It doesn't matter one jot whether it was a promise or not. People believed that is what would be done and they were misled. As Iains pointed out, it was not a promise that a Mars a day would help you work rest and play, nor was it a promise that if you smoked Strand cigarettes you would be surrounded by friends. But that is what people were told and it is what sold the products.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 04:14 PM

DMcG.
The fore runner of Interpol started in 1923, long before the EU was a gleam in Germany's eye.
Do you think that Interpol would be restricted in any way by Brexit? Similarly Security concerns are also a two way street and mutually beneficial. Do you seriously think that will be put in jeopardy?

Just another scare story!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 03:02 PM

To get back to "Post Brexit life in the UK" as opposed to events of approaching 80 years ago:
concerns are being expressed about security ageements with the EU .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 02:54 PM

From: Keith A of Hertford
I watched "Darkest Hour" on Friday.
The choice was to give up a little sovereignty or face the loss off billions in money and hundreds of thousands of lives instead.

They chose to preserve their full sovereignty and take the hit.

It might be a 'slight' loss of sovereignty for the UK, but it would also mean the acceptance that Germany could keep controls of all the land they had already conquered, or were in the process of conquering, or had invaded, and planned to conquer.

Under those circumstances it was not just a matter of what was best for Britain.

And as Germany had ignored the settlements following WW I there could be no certainty that they would keep any new agreement.

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.
(Kipling)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 02:52 PM

You still haven't commented on Gisela Stuart's campaign leaflet which said "Let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week", if I recall rightly, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 02:26 PM

Another almost full page about the slogan on the side of a bus, and still no-one can show that any of those campaigning for leave intended that this was a promise of what the country would do with 350 million a week post Brexit.

Also:
From: Dave the Gnome

Neither Nigel has adequately explained why Farage was not true to his word when he said there should be a second referendum if the leave vote was not more than 2/3rds.

There could be unstoppable demand for a re-run of the EU referendum if Remain wins by a narrow margin on 23 June, UKIP leader Nigel Farage has said.
...
The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it." (BBC News 17 May 2016)

Of course it could be explained by the fact that he is a lying manipulative little shit.

While I have no real insight into the workings of Nigel Farage's mind, I can suggest that he might have meant that a close run result (in favour of 'Remain') would be open to challenge because of the use of public money to fund the one-sided propaganda issued by the remain side.
He then went on that this would only be a realistic challenge if the vote was close. A 2/3 majority (of those voting, and in favour of Remain) would have settled the matter.

As it was, the Brexit team won the referendum with a slender majority (of those voting) despite attempts to use public funds to weight the vote.

Recent moves to tax donors to only one side of the referendum show just how ingrained this weighting of the vote is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 12:58 PM

DMcG it's just another feeble attempt to divert the subject of the thread.

I wonder if, like Farage, some people have thought Oops we've might have made a monumental cock-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 12:10 PM

History is definitely not my subject, but I understood Lord Halifax was in favour of a negotiates settlement. I am by no means convinced he or anyone else would have referred to it as a little loss of sovereignty. But if you can give me a cabinet paper reference where he did I would be obliged.

But let us not forgwt this thread is about "Poat Brexit" not the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 10:22 AM

DMcG that was the position of Halifax and those who wanted to go for a peace settlement in 1940.
The deal would involve a small loss of sovereignty but a saving in money and lives when the war seemed lost anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:59 AM

DMcG, there is absolutely no correlation between the two events.

There are some however who cannot tell the difference, they probably read the Daily Mail and wear union flag underpants.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:52 AM

Describing the conflicts of the Second World War as about "giving up a little sovereignty" is a new use of the adjective 'little' to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:46 AM

Another one here who is not defending the lies and misrepresentations of either side. But it is worth remembering what was said about the £4300 at the time (18 April 2016):

"Reality Check verdict: The precise figure is questionable and probably not particularly helpful. If you want to be influenced by economic modelling, the useful thing to take away is that the Treasury thinks leaving the EU would be bad for the economy, by an amount that would dwarf the savings from not having to contribute to the EU Budget."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:35 AM

I notice you all keep very quiet about the following though

Neither I nor anyone arguing for remaining has kept quiet about the dirty tricks the remain campaign used. They both told lies and exagurated. One does not justify the other though and trying to justify the 350 million pound lie with whataboutism just does not wash.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 07:49 AM

Keep the home fires burning
while your hearts are yearning
though your lads are far away
they dream of home
there's a silver lining
through the dark clouds shining
turn the dark clouds inside out
'til the boys come home

Thought I may as well post this as it has as much relevance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 07:42 AM

I watched "Darkest Hour" on Friday.
The choice was to give up a little sovereignty or face the loss off billions in money and hundreds of thousands of lives instead.

They chose to preserve their full sovereignty and take the hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM

The bus slogan was challenged at the time it appeared and debated in high profile well before the vote.
Voters knew it was not any kind of promise and were aware of all the objections to it.

Why debate it again?
The debate happened and you still lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 06:47 AM

Sorry, I meant remain side in my first sentence.