BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 11:54 AM

You have a point, DMcG, but don't forget that this EU Tax-Law change hasn't suddenly crept up on The, it has been in the air for a very long time, the Off-shorers and other sundry Rich Tax-Dodgers have known about this for several years. Their anti-immigrant, anti-EU propaganda has been ratcheted up over this time, precisely in order to 'wind up' he feeble-minded, Union-Flag-underpants, British-Bulldog-tattoo brigade.

And, of course, they want us out of the EU because, whilst they control the Tories here, they can't exert the same control over the EU - wasn't it Murdoch who was reported to have said, "When I talk to the UK government, they jump. When I talk to the EU, they ignore me!", or words to that effect.

And, of course it's the reason why Weak & Wobbly Terroresa is pushing for a hard BrexShit, with no membership of the Single Market or the Customs Union - membership of those would require the UK to remain subject to the EU tax regime, and the new anti-avoidance/evasion rules which come into effect in 2019.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 01:11 PM

An interesting article on the BBC today, listed under the business page, basically saying that the UK economy is the poorest performing in Europe with little good news for the future. Could someone please link to it. It is titled "Tax rises of #40bn needed"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 03:40 PM

IS THIS THE ONE RAGGY?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:23 AM

Thanks Jim, thats the one. Very poor reading regarding our economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:19 AM

More voices saying the UK approach to the Irish border needs rethinking .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:12 AM

Grayling's idea of 'Taking Back Control'....

'Take are cuntry back (sic)' my arse! What a bunch of twats.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:20 AM

Grayling spent the evening making confident and bullish assertions thst he was not entitled to make on matters that are still subject to negotiation. Typical pompous, smug, Tory idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:39 PM

you know you people on here and elsewhere who are prepared to support the tories, the wealthy and the toffs - you do know it isn't very cool or patriotic or sensible don't you? you do know that history will look on you as gullible idiots eh? do you never yearn to be enlightened or positive or hopeful?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Mar 18 - 12:57 PM

If this article is correct, we are in for some interesting reading tomorrow if the Exiting Brexit Select Committee does recommend trying to extend the Article 50 timescales as we do not have enough time to address all the things we need to. Of course, a minority disagrees, but as the Leavers here are forever reminding us that the majority rules, I am sure they will back the majority report.

At the same time, David Davis is in Brussels trying to sort out the Irish border question. This is not helped by the sudden awareness there is a Dover problem as well.

Also at the same time, many companies are entering the financial year in which they have to make all the preparations in case there is a 'no-deal'.

I never underestimate politicians ability to fudge things, but this has to be boiled up in time for an EU Council meeting on 22/23rd of this month...

Things have been a bit quiet on the Brexit front for a few weeks, but it looks like the next two weeks will be lively.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 04:16 AM

The Select committee report

Unsurprisingly, all the papers which mention it seem to be focusing on the minority report by Rees-Mogg and co, not the report agreed by the majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 06:10 AM

Peteaberdeen. In answer: Nope!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 07:16 AM

It is looking as if the UK is about to concede on the fisheries. I seem to remember several leave supporters talking as if not backing down on this was very important to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 08:29 AM

Ok, I seemed to have jumped the gun on that one. We have conceded on fishing but only for 2019. I am sure the leave supporters can live with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 09:16 AM

you people on here and elsewhere who are prepared to support the tories, the wealthy and the toffs

I thought we were discussing the merits of Leave and Remain here.
Plenty of Labour politicians support Leave, and Leavers here are putting their case.
Most Tory politicians support Remain. Remainers here are putting their case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:00 AM

So 13 Tories plus Farage plus a DUP chap are going to throw fish at Theresa May in protest at the Tory caving-in on the fisheries policy, and Spain are cutting up rough on Gibraltar. Still going well, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:10 AM

Has anyone ever claimed that the negotiations are going well?
What is your point?
Who ever imagined Spain would not make an issue of Gibraltar?
Who ever imagined that EU would give back our fishing grounds for the transition?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 09:57 AM

Who ever imagined that hacking into Facebook and selling personal details would become part of national elections - certainly why the world is landed with a racist, misogynistic maniac in the White House and probably why many fell for Brexit
Watch this space for future developments
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 02:52 PM

Who ever imagined that EU would give back our fishing grounds for the transition?

Michael Gove, by all accounts.


Now I hear 13 Tory MPs including Rees-Mogg have written to Teresa May saying they will refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Bill unless the fishing negotiated position is changed.

Assuming May believes them, it means she will have to make concessions on some of the amendments to get enough Labour MPs to vote for it to get an essential bill passed. That's brinkmanship for you: there's always a risk of it backfiring.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 05:14 AM

Who ever imagined that EU would give back our fishing grounds for the transition?
Michael Gove, by all accounts.

I am sure he never imagined they would give them back. He might have hoped we would insist on it.
We seem to be making all the concessions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 08:15 AM

Well this is one of the things Gove said.

I hope he believed and imagined it was possible when he said it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 08:34 AM

I hope, by the way, we are not going to get stuck on the word 'imagine'. I have no access to what you can imagine, nor you to my imagination. And neither of us has access to anybody elses.

So if someone is arguing for something I am taking that as a sign they imagine it as a possibility, even if is a remote one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:10 AM

Steve - Forgot to tell you. Had a wonderful Primitivo last week. Dominic Hentall Terra Calda Primitivo. Well worth looking up but on the pricey side. Probably get it for far less next time you are there :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:03 AM

DMcG, I am sure he did believe that EU should give back the fishing grounds, and he clearly believes May should have demanded it.

He must have known EU would resist, just not that May would cave in over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:14 PM

I just loved the delicious irony that now we are "GETTING BACK CONTROL" one of the first contracts of the new era for the new "Blue Passport" looks like it might be going to a French firm.

You really couldn't make it up. The contract for the last few years has been handled by a UK group who look to be losing out on a contract worth hundreds of millions.

If it does go ahead no doubt jobs will be lost. I'm sure the people
who will be thrown on the scrap heap will thank everyone who voted leave.

Never mind they can always go a pick vegetables for a pittance instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:46 PM

It doesn't worry me too much where the passport are made, as long as the full economic costs are taken into account. That's things like loss of taxation and payments to the people who have lost their jobs. More likely, all of that has been ignored and it is just the cost typed on the contract that has been considered.

We will see a lot of this sort of thing: taking back control never really meant the UK would be preferred if someone else was cheaper. And as for making concessions, I suspect we have barely started. The concessions we will have to make to win trade deals after Brexit are the ones I worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:59 PM

I quite agree DMcG. In one my previous postions I was responsible for negotiating and awarding contracts.

It's just the irony that a major contract for the NEW British passport may be awarded to a FOREIGN company.

You really could't make it up !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:56 PM

France only allows French firms to print theirs, for security reasons.
Fools or chauvinists?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:16 PM

What difference does it make where it is made. Do you wish to pay a premium for your passport to retain the British provenance? Where does that argument get you? British cars and trucks on the road, British oil keeping them running? British food to keep everyone alive?
British uranium to keep our few remaining reactors running?
The idea is a joke. Like or dislike the global village, the fact is that it is a reality. In or out of Europe that will remain unchanged. The clock will not turn back and major shipbuilding and coalmining areas will not come back like a phoenix. The growth of self driving vehicles, AI and the increasing sophistication of robotics and automation will scythe through many many traditional jobs in the near future. Machines do not have holidays, sick pay or PMT and they can work 24/7. No strikes, no unions, BLISS! But how will all the useless eaters be kept placid when their jobs evaporate in droves?
I wonder how much of what we are fed by the media and education system is in preparation for these happy days when we reach the Elysian Fields, or perhaps merely the cliff of the lemmings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:24 PM

Interesting that you use PMT as though it was something that can be avoided.

Thats speaks volumes about you Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:29 PM

PS It is obvious that awarding a major contract to produce the new "Blue" British passport is obviously lost on some.

Yeah ........ lets take back control !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 03:40 PM

PMT reduces efficiency. It says volumes about you that you cannot see this obvious point, and want to make some sort of crusade out of the use of the term.
Taking back control is not about rewarding British companies because they cannot compete in the open market.Try using some sort of logic when constructing your arguments. Are you becoming an acolyte of he who must not be argued with?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 03:50 PM

Irony is not your strong point is it Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 05:35 PM

My passport will be made in France (due to coincidence, my bloody passport runs out four days after brexit, though no doubt I can renew my EU one in good time). I hope it will get me on to EasyJet just as easily. My shorts, shirts, undies and sandals are all made in China. They'll get me on the plane too (I'm not going to try naked boarding). My cabin bag - Chinese. My watch - Japanese. My bottle of water will probably be Evian. French. If my passport is made in France, British workers will be worse off but French workers will be better off. Even Stevens. The French are no better or worse than us. Good luck to 'em.   Just wait until we try to do those amazing trade deals tbe world over, as we've been promised. Just when a Chino-yank trade war is hotting up!

End the madness! We must remain!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 05:42 PM

Do you wish to pay a premium for your passport to retain the British provenance?

No. But I repeat the point about the difference between the cover price and total economic cost. Ignore that, and you can end up paying more as a nation - i.e. paying a premium - by taking the cheaper contract.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 06:18 PM

No point the little Englanders whingeing about where our passports are made. After all, the decision was pure capitalism. And I've yet to encounter a little Englander brexiteer who isn't a pure capitalist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:01 AM

I must admit to sime amusement at the thought of Iains marching down to Lowestoft and giving the fishing comminity his "facts of life", then going on a tour of the other fishing centres.

I am sure he would be warmly received. My only regret is he didn't do so before the vote; i am sure it would have made some say "Blow this for a lark, we're better off remaining."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:16 AM

Lowestoft fishing community? Are you in the right century? There is no fishing community.
Grimsby had a far larger fishing industry and NE Lincs voted 70% to leave. This statistic is a fact of life!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:50 AM

This was in the papers on 19 March this year:

Fisherman Paul Lines, chairman of the Lowestoft Fish Market Alliance, said the news would devastate the industry in East Anglia and may be the final straw for many.

Yes, I think I am in right century.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:56 AM

And, yes they largely voted to leave. It is always risky to say why people voted the way they did, but it is a reasonable bet that they thought it could give them more access to the UK fish. So your "facts of life" speech saying they they may well have less unless they can outbid the other competitors is unlikely to cheer them up very much.

But if you would rather go and give that speech to Grimsby, feel free.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 05:32 AM

Business is business. If you cannot compete you die. Another inconvenient truth. Do you think you are entitled to a particular job, just because it has always been there? How many farmers exist in the UK today, how many miners, how many shipbuilders?..........
Your arguments are facile. The industry in Lowestoft was destroyed by Ted Heath decades ago. Mr Lines's horse bolted years ago and it's stable is now devoted to alternative energy. The actual meeting was in the Orbis energy center. Times change, as do occupations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 05:42 AM

If you cannot compete you die.

It is very true but too many people believe this applies to short term profit only. What about sustainability? Human cost? Environmental damage? Anyone thinking that the only measure is the bottom line is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 05:49 AM

You arguments are facile

Well, that's a big step up from the personal abuse that is all too common on this site, so thanks for dealing with the argument not the person.

But you will find I haven't argued for subsidising failing business or against changing jobs. I have not even argued against taking the cheapest contract whether from the UK or abroad. I have simply argued that the whole costs need to be looked at. I don't think that is facile.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 06:01 AM

Let's use a fishing example, seeing as that is what we were on about.

Tiny's trawlers make sure they only fish for 6 months a year and for the other 6 months the fish breed and replenish the stocks. Because their fleet is in harbour for six months they are seen as unprofitable.

Whopper's whale boats fish for 12 months a year, returning with profitable catches every time. They make more money so, on paper, are the better investment.

In 5 years time Tiny is still returning the same profit. Whopper has cleaned out his fishing grounds and returns no profit at all. Ever again. Who was the better businessman?

Dave (just call me Aesop) the Gnome.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 07:34 AM

"How many farmers exist in the UK today, how many miners, how many shipbuilders?.........."
Not sure if that is supposed to be in support of the system or against it!
You may not be entitled to a particular job but you should be entitled to a job that suits your skills - no longer the case
All these occupations died because of underfunding and neglect because it was more profitable to buy abroad and they were never replaced.
Blaming the EU for the state of the Fishing Industry is crass - it has been dying since the middle of the 20th century due to overfishing in order to supply the multinationals
THE SCIENTISTS VIEW
It would have inevitably have gone the way of all the other industries Britain has lost.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:03 AM

I suspect the truth of the matter over passports is that De La Rue thought they had the contract in the bag with the upcoming Brexit and tried stitching up the taxpayer with a vastly inflated pricing structure. They miscalculated.

Jim you are not entitled to a damm thing apart from air to breathe. If your skillset has no market, you have no work. Economic fact.
Employment opportunities wax and wane with supply and demand and suitability of the workforce. You start introducing socialist ideals and it all goes t***ts up because the accumulated costings will fly in the face of economic reality - straight into government bail out or bankruptcy. The occupations you mention died because the same material end could be accomplished more efficiently elsewhere.
Your answer to all problems is to pump more taxpayer funding into the entity to prolong is costly death throes. That is neither a social or economic response that can be justified.
Study the state of the economy after a labour government, robbing Peter to skank Paul, while kidding the latter that he is having a helping hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:14 AM

"Jim you are not entitled to a damm thing apart from air to breathe"
Not in a fascist state, you're not - a democratic society has to create a situation whereby anybody who is able to can support themselves by the work of their own hands
Your "economic fact" excludes those who cannot
This has nothing to do with "socialist ideals" it is basic democracy
Your nightmare world leaves Orwell's 1984 one at the starting post - are you insane?
The society you appear to envisage, where wealth and power call the shots regresses us back to pre feudalism.
My answer is to create a society that suits all - nothing to do with your "handout" dependency
Not to do so is to waste the most valuable source humanity has - humanity itself
You go beyond the worst that even this shoddy shower of fucks that rule us do - at least they have to pay lip service to providing for all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:33 AM

tried stitching up the taxpayer with a vastly inflated pricing structure.

Point of information: the gov.uk site is quite clear that the cost of a passport covers the cost of its issue. The cost is borne by the purchaser of the passport, not the taxpayer.

There are plenty of taxpayers without passports, and plenty of passport holders who earn so little their tax is small. The two groups - passport holders & taxpayers - are distinct.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 10:57 AM

Oh dear! gullibility knows no bounds! The government just loves people like you.

http://www.cityam.com/282739/rue-weighs-up-appeal-after-missing-out-new-post-brexit-blue

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:15 AM

Jim everything has its price. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and no socialist has ever found a magic money tree. Those in society in work support those that do not. State pensions are funded through taxation, as is the health service, the sick, the unemployed, unmarried mothers and the bone idle. If the tax grab from those in work is insufficient to fund all these dependencies there will be an answering.
The attached is certainly not how we want it to end up-yet are we encouraging a dependency among a minority?

https://www.ilivehere.co.uk/bransholme-hull.html

A study in a socialist dream transmogrified into a nightmare sink estate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:38 AM

Try it for yourself. I know numerous people brought up on Bransholme. Most are well balanced hard working people who have gained a measure of success, a night coun manager, a publican, a master carpenter, a Trade Union Offical, an actor/professional musician and numerous people in the Educational field.

Sure there are some who haven't done well but that happens in any group of people.