BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 10:52 AM

It was late and I was almost asleep! Still, Boris has gone, and he won't be the second. Or fourth. I can see him not being the last. Anyway, the good Lord sayeth that the last shall be first and the first shall be last, or summat like that. I predict a leadership challenge very soon. And Boris won't win. Actually, I hope he does. No I don't. Do I? No!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 10:43 AM

Sadly although Johnson has resigned I do not think we have seen the last of him. A thoroughly nasty narcistic racist oaf.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 10:07 AM

Boris has gone.
He definitely will not be the first.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 05:10 AM

Everyone mikes masitikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 04:51 AM

So David Davis has walked, and he won't be the first

I am moderately sure Nigel's instinctive response to this will to say you meant "he won't be the last". Very likely, that will be the extent of a reaction from Nigel.

Yes, I would have commented if I'd seen it sooner.
If Theresa May's proposals get put to the EU, and accepted, I can now see a benefit to Gina Miller's court case. Only now it could be the Brexit supporters who decide to vote against implementation on the current terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 04:42 AM

"all it has to do id repay everything that Britain pillaged from the its empire, at present day value - plus interest"
Are you going to claim the Danegeld back as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 03:06 AM

Non-EU immigration alone exceed net immigration targets. If the government really wants to control immigration, all it has to do id repay everything that Britain pillaged from the its empire, at present day value - plus interest

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 02:36 AM


So David Davis has walked, and he won't be the first

I am moderately sure Nigel's instinctive response to this will to say you meant "he won't be the last". Very likely, that will be the extent of a reaction from Nigel.



This resignationj certainly makes the 1922 committee meeting harder. If May does what David Davis recommends and appoints someone who is "an enthusiastic supporter" of the Chequers agreement, it will not soothe the angry Brexiteers in the slightest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 02:29 AM

Resigned from a job he was totally useless at, hence we are where we are. Next to go should be Disgraced Former Defence Secretary Liam Fox, who for two years has held a job with no purpose and no point, and managed even to stuff that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 07:46 PM

So David Davis has walked, and he won't be the first. Be very afraid, Theresa. Seems that your turd will remain unpolished.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 11:24 AM

The Tories had (unmet) targets, but all parties were committed to reducing immigration so all would have had to concentrate on non-Europeans because EU migration can not be controlled until we leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 10:41 AM

The targets (which were never met) were Tory targets. Yvette Cooper has recommended scrapping that target.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 10:06 AM


I see an election racing towards us!

Really? For the Tories, the position has been the same for a while:

(i) the margins are too low to be confident they would beat Corbyn (and after the last short notice election that confidence does not come easy)
(ii) while they might find an agreed candidate for one view, they lack a unity candidate
(iii) a change of leader does not require a new election.
(iv) leaving everything else aside, an election mid negotiation is problematic

A new election is possible, naturally. But who will risk it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 09:00 AM

"Peel tenders his resignation as Prime Minister "
A crying shame - when his successor came into power he began to dismantle all the famine relief that he predecessor had put into place for the Irish people
The world might have been a better place
Sort of "If you have a pint to make, starve the ****** to death
John Russell

"I see an election racing towards us!"
Yet another exercise in "polishing a turd" to borrow a phrase from Boris the Brain-dead
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 08:41 AM

David,
It is just their policy, and specifically Theresa May's policy, to do so.

Since Gordon Brown's time, all 3 major parties have been committed to reduce immigration. It is dishonest to claim it is only the Tories.

EU immigration can not be reduced so the whole burden falls on non-European people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 06:19 AM

parallels with 1845?
First students admitted to the Royal Agricultural College, Cirencester, the first agricultural college in the English-speaking world.

Peel tenders his resignation as Prime Minister as unable to persuade his Cabinet to repeal the Corn Laws.

First national general domestic poultry show in the U.K. held at London Zoo

If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack. Winston Churchill

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:56 AM

Employing my partner for 7 hours per week as my PA, taking calls when at home, typing up my invoices, and carrying out market research is hardly a big business gravy train is it?

Also what are the chances that domestically grown produce to EU standards would be largely bound for export, while domestic consumers end up with low quality adulterated foods, particularly those who cannot afford premium prices? - parallels with 1845?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:39 AM

I don't have the energy to organise another local snap election campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:19 AM

For clarity, it is the Mauritian relatives who will be visiting us shortly)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:18 AM

I see an election racing towards us!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:17 AM

One of my sons is married to an Italian, and the other to a Mauritian, so I have some sort of involvement in the difference between the two. (In fact, she and three relatives who are visiting the UK will be here in about an hour.)

The costs of being a legal immigrant from outside the EU are several thousands of pounds per year. I do not think it likely the EU will accept that readily for their citizens. So it seems inevitable that there will be continuing differences between the two.

There is also an argument to be made that one of the drivers of illegal immigration is the high cost of being a legal immigrant.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:03 AM

I almost felt like vomiting after listening to that condescending git Gove on the Andrew Marr show - who does it think he is if he thinks that he has the right to dictate to the people of the UK who they can live with and who can work for them?????? Can I have the right to deny leavers the right to live with their UK partners???

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:00 AM

For all the wrong reasons, just for once I agree with Boris when he says that Theresa May's Chequers brexit "plans" are akin to polishing a turd.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 04:01 AM

David,
There is not, and never has been, any reason for the UK government to treat immigrants from the rest of the world differently from EU immigrants.

Yes there is. EU migrants can not be refused, so all control has to fall on non-EU people.

Bwm, there are rich and poor on both sides, but big business want Remain to keep their gravy train running.
If you could argue your case you would not have to resort to name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 02:41 AM

Liked this comment (from BBC review of papers)

According to the Telegraph, pro-Brexit MPs have expressed anger that Leave-supporting members of the Cabinet didn't take a greater stand against the proposals - including resigning.

One senior MP is quoted as saying: "Brexiteer ministers have put their careers before their country. They are traitors to the nation." 


More traitors to the nation, eh? At this rate it is going to be quicker to say who isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 04:53 PM

Yeah, you're right, Dave, I should know better! I was just filling in a bit of spare time and amusing myself before setting off for The Smoke, and the Clapton/Steve Winwood/Santana concert in Hyde Park tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 03:18 PM

Backy, you're falling for it again. Don't go tnere!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 03:11 PM

BWM, please try not to resort to name calling.
There are rich individuals on both sides, but the big multi-nationals all seem to be Remain. They are the worst tax avoiders.

My linked quote explained that UK was the main driver behind the EU tax avoidance directive and will abide by it.

More wriggling, Swivel-Hips. You should start a new career as a belly-dancer, you could make a fortune. If you promise to cut out the wriggling fuckwittery, I'll promise to stop calling you Swivel-Hips. Your choice, I don't care either way.

In my earlier post, I said "the immensely rich tiny minority",and you responded "They are the ones who want to remain". I never mentioned multi-national businesses, I was speaking about individuals like the Rothermeres, Murdoch, Rees Mogg, and many others who seek to preserve their personal fortunes. You introduced multi-nationals - wriggling.

Whether the U.K. is the driver behind the EU Tax regulations is immaterial. Outside the EU, the U.K. can do whatever it wishes, whereas inside the EU it will be obliged to conform. It doesn't take the Brain of Britain to work out which alternative the Murdochs and Rothermeres of this world, who give the Tory government its orders, would prefer - hence the rabid pro-BrexShit propaganda spewed by their publications to bamboozle daft people like you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:59 PM

There is not, and never has been, any reason for the UK government to treat immigrants from the rest of the world differently from EU immigrants. It is just their policy, and specifically Theresa May's policy, to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:36 PM

DMcG, if that happens it will be due to Remain lobbying not Leave.
We do not want it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:32 PM

BWM, please try not to resort to name calling.
There are rich individuals on both sides, but the big multi-nationals all seem to be Remain. They are the worst tax avoiders.

My linked quote explained that UK was the main driver behind the EU tax avoidance directive and will abide by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:31 PM

It also looks as if one of the things claimed as moral high ground for leaving - that immigration from the EU and the rest of the world will be treated the same way - may not happen either.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 01:43 PM

Barclay Brothers, owners of the Telegraph group, personal wealth £2.25 billion - Leavers.

Richard Desmond, Express group owner, personal wealth £1 billion. - Leaver

The Rothermere family, Associated Newspapers owner, family fortune £760 million - Leaver

Rupert Murdoch, Sun owner, net worth $8.3 billion - rabid Leaver

300 top businessmen supporting Leave campaign

Gyrating like a Dervish again eh, Swivel-Hips? So...

1) please explain the precise meaning of your cut-and-paste in your own words, and the effect it will have on the immensely-wealthy tiny minority who seek to avoid UK taxes on the profits they make in the UK.

2) please comment on the immensely wealthy newspaper-owning businessmen, plus at least 300 others in the linked Telegraph article who, despite your claim to the contrary, are known to be supporters of the Leave campaign.

Your own words please, no cut-and-pastes.

You won't, because you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 12:31 PM

"The EU has drafted an anti-tax avoidance directive, for approval by the European Council. As the UK has been a driving force behind the OECD-G20 BEPS project, the UK is already ahead of the curve in implementing the various anti-avoidance rules, such as a general anti-abuse rule, CFC rules. However, anti-hybrid rules are in Finance Bill 2016, and there is a question mark now hanging over the Finance Bill, since it would need to obtain Royal Assent by mid-October if it is to be enacted. A big issue for multinationals is undoubtedly the question of corporate interest deductibility, (broadly) set to be capped at 30% of EBITDA, which is also in the draft EU directive. However, as this was driven by the OECD-G20, it is highly unlikely the UK will shy away from this now. "
https://www.mazars.co.uk/Home/News-Events/Latest-news/Tax-News/Brexit-The-tax-implications

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 09:55 AM

"Those are the people who want in! They love the supply of cheap workers including their own domestics like nannies and gardeners. They love the extra rent they collect. They love the CAP largess for the biggest land owners. Their off shore money havens are nothing to do with EU."

All I can say to that delusional gem, Swivel-Hips, is that you must be living in some kind of parallel universe.

Barclay Brothers, owners of the Telegraph group, personal wealth £2.25 billion - Leavers.

Richard Desmond, Express group owner, personal wealth £1 billion. - Leaver

The Rothermere family, Associated Newspapers owner, family fortune £760 million - Leaver

300 top businessmen supporting Leave Campaign

Tell you what, educate yourself about the new EU Anti-Tax-Avoidance Regulations coming into effect in May 2019, ask yourself who will be affected by new rules requiring, amongst other things, taxes to be paid in the State in which the profits on which they are based are made, and work out why there's the rush to leave the EU by the end of March 2019.

If you don't understand that, then you're either being deliberately stupid, or Musket was absolutely correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 09:08 AM

"Yes Keith, both the Tories and Labour have let the British people down very badly over this. "
In fairness, the parties were handed a poisoned chalice by this decision - it was sold on a divisive ticket on the basis that the non-British section of the population were the cause of all Britain's troubles
Piwell tried this decades earlier and was kicked out on his arse - rightly
This time the sickness took hold
As much as I admire what a the Green Party stands for, their one-hit policies put them in a position where they can never have a significant voice
The Utopian suggestion that Farage, the beer swilling hate monger should ever return to the fray is, unfortunately a somewhat remote possibility
Should that ever happen, the whole Circus of Cards would come crashing around, forcing this shower of morons back to the drawing board - we wish!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 09:06 AM

Nevertheless the interests of the British people are best served by retaining Freedom of Movement. And most educated people understand that. And most of the productive people understand that. Its our voting system which is the problem, there is no minimum educational qualification.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 08:33 AM

David,
Yes Keith, both the Tories and Labour have let the British people down very badly over this. Even the Lib Dems were mealy mouthed, the only person (in England anyway) willing to stand up and say that Freedom of Movement is a fantastic benefit for the British People was Caroline Lucas.

Quite. Now beside the referendum result, consider the 2017 election.
The two Brexit parties achieved 82% of the vote.
The "mealy mouthed" Lib Dems got 7% and Caroline Lucas' party just 1.6%.

Remain lost even more emphatically and decisively than in the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 08:19 AM

BWM,
So...in the light of what has happened in the past two years, give us the list of benefits that will be enjoyed after the UK has left the EU - what benefits will be enjoyed,

Just those laid out in the Leave campaign for the referendum. Nothing has changed.

not by the tiny immensely-rich minority, the preservation of whose wealth and offshoring/tax-avoidance opportunities is, in fact, the sole reason for the existence of the Leave campaign

Those are the people who want in! They love the supply of cheap workers including their own domestics like nannies and gardeners. They love the extra rent they collect. They love the CAP largess for the biggest land owners. Their off shore money havens are nothing to do with EU.
The likes of Reese-Mogg are renegades.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 07:03 AM

Yes Keith, both the Tories and Labour have let the British people down very badly over this. Even the Lib Dems were mealy mouthed, the only person (in England anyway) willing to stand up and say that Freedom of Movement is a fantastic benefit for the British People was Caroline Lucas.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 06:49 AM

"You could just look back at the Leave campaign of 2016. You only seem to remember the claim about extra money for the NHS. There was much more and it resulted in a clear defeat for Remain."

More wriggling, Keefie? Not good enough, my feeble-minded, swivel-hipped friend.

You have stated yourself, on numerous occasions, that the Leave campaign was run on the basis of suggestions, hopes, and wishes for changes that BrexShit might bring. The situation now, two years on, is very different from that which obtained back in the heady days of red buses and blond buffoons parroting 'Take Back Control' at every sentence-end.

So...in the light of what has happened in the past two years, give us the list of benefits that will be enjoyed after the UK has left the EU - what benefits will be enjoyed, not by the tiny immensely-rich minority, the preservation of whose wealth and offshoring/tax-avoidance opportunities is, in fact, the sole reason for the existence of the Leave campaign, but by you, me, other UK 'Catters, young people, students, young professionals, the sick and disabled - in other words, ordinary people.

You won't, because you can't...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 06:33 AM

"An officer and a gentleman, unlike your goodself."

You have no idea when, where, or what my service consisted of, and therefore you are in no position to judge me in that regard. And, on the basis of your behaviour on this, and other, Mudcat threads, the evidence is that you are anything but a gentleman.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 05:05 AM

I think it very likely that Freedom of Movement in its current form will end, David, if only because May needs to show we got something out of Brexit and there is no great lobby group fighting for it, if we agree the mobility framework (BBC quote follows):

a "mobility framework" will ensure UK and EU citizens can continue to travel to each other's territories and apply for study and work

That could be enough to keep businesses happy, whether we are talking fruit pickers or Airbus sending support staff overseas. It will not help the individual outside of business very much, but as I say no-one is really fighting for them.


So, I think it quite likely Freedom of Movement will end -- except the EU needs to maintain its four freedoms for its own purposes. And I don't think May would jettison the whole caboodle over that. So whether it is kept or not is far more to do with the EU, in my opinion. If the EU do insist upon it, I think we will end up with a relabeling so that it is not called 'Freedom of Movement' but is so in all practical respects, with some minor difference that allows both sides to claim their goals met.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 04:44 AM

Labour Manifesto, "freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union"
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 04:37 AM

Ending freedom of movement was a Tory manifesto promise.
Labour Party also. "Labour would end free movement but not 'sever ties' with EU, Starmer says "
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/24/labour-vows-to-rip-up-and-rethink-brexit-white-paper

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 04:06 AM

My concern is that May will not concede on Freedom of Momement. Freedom of Movement is our Freedom, it provides us with countless opportunities to live, work and study across the EU. Sadly, many do not appreciate these opportunities and are prepared to throw them away in order to have less immigrants. Even setting aside the good that the immigrants do for our economy and society, the loss of opportunity for our young people is truly heartbreaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 03:54 AM

BWM,
Exactly what is going to change to make their lives better?

You could just look back at the Leave campaign of 2016. You only seem to remember the claim about extra money for the NHS. There was much more and it resulted in a clear defeat for Remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:59 AM

I may be able to buy the pint on Raggy's behalf with a bit of luck and a good wind behind me :-) See Moira thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:43 AM

As I said earlier, I don't see a revitalisation of UKIP out of this: I fear that a much darker party might be coming up, with a manifesto to weaken the judges, the House of Lords, and all checks on the government - which they would hope to be them. They will do so, not so much based on the EU, but by playing on the anger of all those who feel cheated in any way. And their support could be very evenly spread throughout every constituency.

The next election might be a very dangerous time. I very much hope I am wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:09 AM

Given there is an attempt to compress a 120-page document into a few paragraphs, exactly what has been agreed is still a bit unclear. But all the papers seem to agree that the cabinet have approved a softish Brexit as the objective. Since a negotiation normally ends up somewhere between the negotiators' positions, it is likely we will end up with an even softer one, and my guess is services and trade will be treated the same.

Much will depend on what the hard Brexiteers do in the next week or two, and Bill Cash, for example, did not sound too happy on Newsnight.

But never fear, leavers, it looks as if we are leaving, in line with the referendum result