BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 May 18 - 06:41 AM

It's quite easy to avoid the hoops DMcG, Just ignore the inanity of the posts.

Both you and I understand the differences that may occur post brexit, I may be inclined to explain it to another poster if it did not lead to an interminable round of unfounded and predominantly inane counter claims.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 18 - 06:18 AM

I really don't want to get into to this 'hoops' business but you really make it difficult not to, Keith. The existing border is between two countries with almost identical regulations. I cannot believe you do not see that if they have different regulations the situation is different.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 18 - 05:12 AM

The relevance to an open border is obvious.

How?
We have an open border now. If Eire/EU close the border how will that increase the risk?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 May 18 - 02:08 PM


There is nothing to stop such crime occurring now so Brexit will not make it any more likely.

That doesn't follow in the slightest. The opportunities and the rewards have both chang3d, which make it more likely.

The horse meat scandal was due to the criminals concerned exploiting the lack of checks between origin and destination. The relevance to an open border is obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 18 - 01:46 PM

"Yeabut we are takin are cuntry back..."

Hey, that's my line... :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 18 - 12:50 PM

SPB, Labour and Lib Dems all supported having the 2016 referendum too.
They both promised it in their manifestos.

DMcG, the horsemeat scandal started in Eire and spread to 13 EU countries. It is irrelevant to the issue of the border, except it might have been harder to get the bad meat into Britain if we were outside EU.

There is nothing to stop such crime occurring now so Brexit will not make it any more likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 12:05 PM

Anyway, promises, promises...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:45 AM

As, by May And June 2005 the constitution was reject by Netherlands and France, the whole ratification process was brought to an end. To stil go ahead with the referendum would have been a pointless waste of money as by that point the result wou;ld have bean irrelavant.
Labour (Blair, Brown, and their manifesto) promised a referendum on the 'constitution'. The constitution was voted down by other countries, and re-introduced as a revised treaty. Labour signed up to that as it wasn't the 'constitution' that they had promised a referendum, although it had most, if not all, of the same effects.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:28 AM

Well there you go.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:22 AM

The would be 'referendum' under the last labour government was with regards to adopting the proposed EU consitution, which would have required ratification by popular referendum of all EU member states.

As, by May And June 2005 the constitution was reject by Netherlands and France, the whole ratification process was brought to an end. To stil go ahead with the referendum would have been a pointless waste of money as by that point the result wou;ld have bean irrelavant. It would be like holding a referendum tomorrow on the 2010 Equalities Act which is already law. Labour has not promised at in-out referendum since 1975.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:20 AM

Argh, no they weren't - that was my version! You're just as bad as I thought you were after all!


Nurse...!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:18 AM

My lack of reading specs also made me fail to spot that your speech marks were all doubles after all. Sorry about that bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:10 AM

"Agan"? Oh, reading specs, where have I put thee?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:09 AM

No probs, Nigel. Happy to oblige. Yertis agan:

Apropos means "with regard to; in respect of " adding 'of' after apropos is a tautology.

There are two sentences there but you haven't punctuated them at all properly. One just runs into the other, a basic grammatical blunder. To keep your wording, this is how it should read, I'd suggest:

Apropos means "with regard to; in respect of." Adding "of" after apropos is a tautology.

Or a semicolon might have done it after "in respect of," I suppose. Thing is, Nigel, your version is all over the place, not just in the way I've indicated but also apropos of your somewhat cavalier approach to the use of single and double speech marks. One of the "doubles" is actually floating in mid-air. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 10:44 AM

"Apropos means "with regard to; in respect of " adding 'of' after apropos is a tautology."

You'll struggle to find a dictionary that gives examples of usage that doesn't include an example using "apropos of." It's a perfectly good construction. In fact, "of" is usually required. Oh, and by the way, Nigel, that last bit of yours that I quoted there is far from being a good construction. In fact, it's illiterate. :-)

Another Shaw tactic, claiming a sentence is illiterate without giving a reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 10:22 AM

"The referendum was not 'ill-advised' it was something which a large percentage of the population wanted, and the Labour Party had previously promised, but failed to deliver"

Non sequitur. I'm sure that a large percentage of tbe population would be delighted if the government were to hand out twenty grand per person, but such a move would be ill-advised.

"A pointless addition anyway. If it was instigated by any one party, then it was 100% instigated."

It's perfectly valid to add that construction for emphasis. I'll put it in capitals next time, like Bruce, if you like.

"Apropos means "with regard to; in respect of " adding 'of' after apropos is a tautology."

You'll struggle to find a dictionary that gives examples of usage that doesn't include an example using "apropos of." It's a perfectly good construction. In fact, "of" is usually required. Oh, and by the way, Nigel, that last bit of yours that I quoted there is far from being a good construction. In fact, it's illiterate. :-)

"We have a decision about the size of our country? I thought only the Dutch managed to do anything about that issue."

Very silly, Nigel. The sentence made perfect sense.


You know how I relish these little grammatical skirmishes, Nigel. You'd be well-advised to pick your battles a little more carefully - and check your facts before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 18 - 10:20 AM

Yeabut we are takin are cuntry back...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 18 - 10:12 AM

When four points out of a five point post are nothing more than criticisms of another poster's use of English, and the fifth point is just a finger-in-the-air guess at something that he hopes might happen but might well not, the guy making that post really doesn't have much of worth to say, don'cha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 18 - 09:58 AM

That doesn't make it any easier on the old crown jewels...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 09:52 AM

As my post should make clear, I have the same problems with Steve Shaw's posts.

At least I don't post it all as a single paragraph 'stream of consciousness' post. I make clear (by italics) what sections are quotes, and keep my comments with the related sections of the quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 18 - 09:41 AM

Good god, Nigel. Reading your posts is like untangling spaghetti with your nadgers in a vice.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 09:30 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 08:02 AM
There was absolutely no border issue until Cameron called and lost a extremely ill-advised referendum.
The referendum was not 'ill-advised' it was something which a large percentage of the population wanted, and the Labour Party had previously promised, but failed to deliver.

The issue of the border was once hundred percent instigated by the UK.
Presumably means 'one hundred percent'. A pointless addition anyway. If it was instigated by any one party, then it was 100% instigated.

Border arrangements between nations and large trading blocs can't be mucked about with just because one country decides it wants to change things. There are plenty of countries watching to make sure that the UK, the country causing all the problems lest we forget, doesn't get advantages that they can't have apropos of border arrangements. I'm sure I recall our resident school teacher pointing out that "apropos of" is an invalid construction. Apropos means "with regard to; in respect of " adding 'of' after apropos is a tautology.

If you think that the EU is being awkward about this, it's worth remembering that we have decided to be quite a small country that's cutting itself adrift. We have a decision about the size of our country? I thought only the Dutch managed to do anything about that issue.

You ain't seen nuthin' yet. Just wait and see how awkward it's going to be making trade deals with the world's protectionist giants once we're out. They're not sitting out there waiting to do us any favours either.
No, but they are looking forward to having our custom once they can do so without the protectionist tariffs raised by the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 May 18 - 09:21 AM

It might just be "a bit of smuggling", but it is more likely to be something like the horse meat scandal, but many times larger (because of greater incentives arising from different prices and regulations), and covering many more products. We are vulnerable to such things even within the EU because of the lack of internal checks, even when the regulations are common. If they differ, the incentive for "a bit of smuggling" is much higher.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 18 - 08:25 AM

Hard border is an EU tactic to stop Brexit.
It is an impossibility anyway. There are about 200 crossing points.

If the EU thinks it needs one it will have to make Eire provide it.
Good luck to them with that.
They will also have to provide security. Whatever they pay them will not be enough.

If no hard border is created, the worse that could happen would be a bit of smuggling. Just invest the money in extra policing instead of building 200 Alamos.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 08:02 AM

There was absolutely no border issue until Cameron called and lost a extremely ill-advised referendum. The issue of the border was once hundred percent instigated by the UK. Border arrangements between nations and large trading blocs can't be mucked about with just because one country decides it wants to change things. There are plenty of countries watching to make sure that the UK, the country causing all the problems lest we forget, doesn't get advantages that they can't have apropos of border arrangements. If you think that the EU is being awkward about this, it's worth remembering that we have decided to be quite a small country that's cutting itself adrift. You ain't seen nuthin' yet. Just wait and see how awkward it's going to be making trade deals with the world's protectionist giants once we're out. They're not sitting out there waiting to do us any favours either.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 May 18 - 07:11 AM

Neither party wants a border. It says so quite clearly in every paper issued so far. However the EU is trying to ensure that the UK takes no action that necessitates one, which is why the existence of a hard border is primarily in the UK's hands, whoever has to build it in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 06:56 AM

It needs to be resolved jointly, so that both parties are in agreement, but if only one of the parties wants a border surely they have a greater responsibility in putting forward their recommendations for how it will work. At present it seems the EU want the UK to put forward all the suggestions, just for them to dismiss them as unworkable.
The EU want the border, let's see them come up with recommendations which we can review.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 May 18 - 06:55 AM

The fact that the UK government is battling within cabinet and elsewhere about it is pretty strong evidence they accept it is a UK problem, at least in part.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 18 - 06:51 AM

How is this a UK problem.

A border is by definition between 2 areas. In this case the border is between the EU and the UK. It is not a problem of solely the UK or EU but a issue which needs to be resolved jointly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 06:45 AM

The EU is not changing its rules. All major trading blocs have tariff arrangements and customs controls. You can't expect the EU to bend its rules on account of one dissident country out of 28.

Fair enough. That is why the EU wish to impose a border. But one of their continuing members, the Republic of Ireland, does not want a border imposed.
UK has made it clear we will not be imposing a border.

How is this a UK problem. The EU are responsible for how they maintain their own borders (even if the Republic don't agree).
Why are the UK expected to sort it out?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 May 18 - 06:09 AM

Lest we forget, the tariffs are the least of the issues. It is ensuring agreed regulatory standards are being met that is the harder matter to address.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 05:48 AM

The EU is not changing its rules. All major trading blocs have tariff arrangements and customs controls. You can't expect the EU to bend its rules on account of one dissident country out of 28. This mess is totally our fault. Or, to be more precise, David Cameron's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 04:57 AM

The EU wants a border (hard or otherwise) to preserve their high, protectionist, import tariffs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 18 - 04:51 AM

Madness. The EU wants no hard border.

They keep threatening one, not UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 18 - 03:40 PM

So it seems the cabinet has agreed a backstop for the Irish border. Quoting the BBC website:

======
Brexiteers fear the proposal amounts to staying in the customs union longer.

But No 10 insists this is not the case - saying the UK would still be able to sign and implement trade deals, and the measure would only last for a matter of months

======

Madness. The EU wants no hard border. Who imagines a proposal that "Will only last for a matter of months" is going to be acceptable?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 May 18 - 04:10 AM

The relationship wouldn't be as simple as decided upon a 1:1 or 1:51 vote, as the EU democratic structure allows for veto to facilitate consensus decision making, and as US would have it's own unilateral trade agreements and opposed to a single common trade agreement, things would get particularly messy for Trump, as he would have to drop 'America First', and even if agreement was reached on trade standards, it is unlikley that Trump would allow UK any say on social policy, environment policy etc which are enshrined in EU treaties.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 May 18 - 03:33 AM

DMcG: In your example you're talking about having equality in whether or not to trade. SPB was talking about having equality in setting USAs trade policies. We do note have a 1:1 equal say in EU policies, it is not either what we want, or what the EU wants. it is a 1:27 (with various weightings applied) relationship, in view of the number of parties involved in making the policies.
I was asking whether, if we emulate our control on EU policies in setting up trade with USA would it be a 1:1 relationship? or (as with EU where every state gets a say) a 1:50 relationship? which is very little influence at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:29 PM

I am not sure what point you are making there, Nigel. I have a 'trading relationship' with Amazon.com. In some ways it can legitimately thought of as 1:1 - I am free to decide if I want a product, whether to buy it from them, and what price I am prepared to pay. On the other hand if you were to compare our sizes in terms of budget or personnel, I don't think I am revealing too much to say my resources are somewhat less than Amazon's.

So I don't understand why the ratio you refer to is relevant: it can even be several different ones simultaneously as in my example above.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:42 AM

Trump is America's traitorous Edward the 8th.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 May 18 - 08:58 AM

(2) In terms of how we trade with Europe we have an equal say in single market and customs union policy - by virtue of the European Council and the European Parliament. If anyone outside the EU wants to enter a trade deal with UK, we must have the same representation rights within those countries that we have with the EU.
So are you suggesting we would expect 1 to 1 representation in trading with US? Or 1 to 27 (as we have with EU)? or even 1 to 50 (If our representation is as a single state amongst many)?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 May 18 - 08:13 AM

And before anyone rightly points out that the three won't happen, and the government would go ahead with a pointless trade deal anyway, the points I am raising reflect my own standpoint.

(1) The UK should not be entering into any deals with countries led by the likes of Trump. Indeed collapsing the UK economy would be a price worth paying compared with being seen to endorse endorse Trump or recognise that nasty piece of work's authority in any way.
(2) In terms of how we trade with Europe we have an equal say in single market and customs union policy - by virtue of the European Council and the European Parliament. If anyone outside the EU wants to enter a trade deal with UK, we must have the same representation rights within those countries that we have with the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:17 AM

UK must not enter into any deals whatsoever with the US unless the US
(1) Removes Trump
(2) Conforms to all EU food, safety and other manufacturing standards
(3) The UK has an equal say in US policy as per our current arrangements with the EU, including the power to veto US legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:06 AM

Does everyone agree with his conclusion Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:59 AM

Some of us have been sceptical about future trade deals, especially with the USA. Former Labour Minister Ed Balls has co-authored a report by Harvard University which he discussed on the BBC Today programme:

This is what Ed Balls, the former shadow chancellor, told the Today programme about the Harvard report he has co-authored (see 9.25am) saying the UK would not benefit from a post-Brexit trade deal with the US.

"We’ve talked to many people on the record, but of course the senior negotiators at the USTR [US trade representative], the trade negotiator in America, in the Brexit department here, are more cautious about being on the record. But they were very clear with us that, first of all, the chances of doing a deal quickly are very low. Secondly, if we are outside the EU, our power to negotiate with the US is much lower. But also the kind of things that America would want, in terms of tariff reductions and changes in regulation, would be extremely difficult for British business and consumers to deal with. And the general view was, actually, it’s not really going to happen.

So if the idea is you leave the customs union and get the free trade agreement and that will be better, our conclusion is that is a complete fantasy."

Yet another blow for the Brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:54 AM

It may be the last thing they want. It might also be something they need.
A reminder that if a negotiated exit isn't achieved we have said (by issuing article 50) that we are leaving.

It might stir the Conservative Party to get its act together. It might also remind the EU of the basic facts, the 2 year extension, and the separation payment are reliant on us getting a negotiated settlement acceptable to both parties.

It is slowly getting to the stage where "No deal is better than a bad deal" might be replaced with "No deal is better than most of the deals which have so far been offered".

It might also be that both parties are working on the basis that agreeing everything too early makes them look too eager, and if they can get agreement early on in the negotiations they have been too soft in their requirements.
It should have been clear early on that once you set a completion date for negotiations, negotiations are likely to take that time. A version of Parkinson's law may apply.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 10:04 AM

Rees-Mogg isn't really helping the Tory party at the moment is he. At a time when their divides are all too apparent someone sticking an oar in is the last thing they want.

Rees-Mogg


Daily Telegraph report

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 07:33 AM

True DMcG, but with the Airbus case in particular we haven't gained anything, the good news is just that we haven't lost it. Not quite the same thing. The same good news could potentially be said of a myriad of other business concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 18 - 07:18 AM

I'm not so strict, Raggy. News that things won't get worse (the Airbus case) I still count as good news. Of course, it would be better if it was a company moving here because they thought Brexit brought benefits, but I still accept the 'not getting worse'as good news, given where we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 07:12 AM

The location of the new office of Deutsche Bank in central London is potentially good news.

However, I do question whether this is at all related to Brexit. I also question were the all the profits will go, probably back to Germany.

The news that Airbus will remain in the UK is also good, however that again is not a gain due to Brexit it merely indicated that we haven't lost that work.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 18 - 07:02 AM

Precisely, Nigel. You can do it if you try! Much more relevant than talking about grammar.