BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 06:08 PM

iain - is the term 'commie corbyn' supposed to be an insult or a cheap, cliched jibe? all this daily m**l inspired hate stuff is not really effective anymore, is it? in any other sensible european country jeremy corbyn would be nothing out of the ordinary, whereas our current government are exceptional in their self-harming. just an incompetent, unprincipled, feckless laughing stock. at least commies have a plan and some idealism

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:29 PM

You didn't study English either, did you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:10 PM

"And, last time I heard, maths was not a crucial part of history degree courses."
Whoever said it was? you stupid boy!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 04:39 PM

Unfocused and incomprehensible as ever. And, last time I heard, maths was not a crucial part of history degree courses. You are severely jealous of anyone who's had a decent education. Comes across so clearly in so many of your posts. You'll just have to satisfy yourself (oops, did I really just say that?) with the delusion that you got your degree in Common Sense from the University of Life, old boy. Gentleman's third, I should imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 03:54 PM

The muddy side of politics is littered with links to terrorism.
Look at it as an example of real politik. The same reason commie corbyn supposedly backs brexit. (the alternative being a massacre in the polling booth.
Look what your little mate had to say on real politik:

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:25 PM
Any party(LABOUR) that voted against a referendum would have been instant toast and you know it. You don't do realpolitik, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:42 PM

At least Abbot's mistake didn't cost the British taxpayer a 1 BILLION bung to a terrorist-linked party as THERESA MAY'S did
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 01:47 PM

The abbot.. may have a degree in history from cambridge but she has publicly demonstrated on several occasions that her grasp of basic maths is easily surpassed by the average 10 year old.
Would you like a few examples?

Here is one anyway to save you the bother of trying to deny the obvious.
You see stevie boy, links can be used to back up statements.

Perchance that is why you do not use them. It would never do for facts to get in the way of your opinionated scribings.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/may/05/diane-abbott-underestimates-labour-local-election-losses-video

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:47 PM

"You are just puffed up minnows"

Calm down, dear.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:46 PM

The trouble with that joke is that it's a rehash of a Dubya joke from at least twelve years ago in which he got agitated when he heard that a Brazilian had been killed and he wanted to know how many a Brazilian was. When you hear a weak joke that's just a rehash of an old one it's just tiresome, certainly not what I'd call "hilarious." But we know, don't we, that poor Iains has a thing about Diane Abbott, having been singularly rounded on here for his tasteless remarks about her appearance. It'll presumably be even worse now that I've informed him that she's well educated to boot. I wonder whether she wears sandals. Poor Diane.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:14 PM

Being in a minority doesn't mean you're losing the actual debate.

If public opinion moves away from you, it does mean you are losing the actual debate.

You personally are in a minority of one in almost every thread here,

Yes, but only on Mudcat, not in the real world.

In the real world, Remainers lost the referendum and the trend is moving towards Leave.

In the real world, your Far Left politics put you in an almost irrelevant fringe minority.

You are just puffed up minnows. A big shoal here but only in this tiny pond.
Not the real world Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:46 AM

I thought it hilarious. Just shows what miserable bas****ds the remainers are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 10:10 AM

I presume that the Diane Abbott quip came from this:

Diane Abbott

A bit weak as an attempt at humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:38 AM

Being in a minority doesn't mean you're losing the actual debate. You personally are in a minority of one in almost every thread here, unless you count bobad who's never there when you need him and always there when we don't, yet you routinely tell those in the majority over you that they lose. So stop being silly.

For the benefit of anyone here who is scared or jealous of well-educated people, or who harbours other philistine notions about education, Diane Abbott has a history degree from Cambridge, to which you don't get unless you're quite clever.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:25 AM

Let me explain Steve.
The debate continues nationally as it does here.
The number supporting Remain is falling, while the number supporting Leave is increasing and is now ahead again.
Remain is thus losing the argument, and Leave is winning it.
OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 08:42 AM

"You Gov says Leave has overtaken Remain again, so Remain is losing the argument."

Non sequitur.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:56 AM

Diane Abbott was asked to comment about Carillion, she said, “Remind me again, how many is a “Carillion”?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:07 AM

You Gov says Leave has overtaken Remain again, so Remain is losing the argument.

New: was Britain right or wrong to vote for Brexit?
Right: 45% (+3)
Wrong 44% (-2)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/01/19/majority-britons-think-uk-right-leave-european-union-first-time/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:07 AM

I agree with all that, DMcG, though I never came close to voting leave. The EU contains a giant and stilted bureaucracy. There's a lot wrong and a lot that needs reforming. But the edifice is more than good enough for us to stay in and fight for that reform from within. That's the kind of deal we should now be trying to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 04:23 AM

Well stevie blunder congratulations on the cut and paste. Repetition merely enforces my point of view, even a fool realises that!

Was it a failed attempt to make a link that lead to the crying "
Bwahahahaha! "
My commiserations. Keep trying. If a monkey can tap out a bible passage, there may be glimmer of hope for you yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 03:48 AM

As far as entrenched positions is concerned, I think I fit quite well into the "7/10" rating for the EU that Corbyn famously declared. I think there are a lot of remainers who are similar, and no doubt also a goodly proportion of leavers. Zealots on either side are probably a minority, however vocal.

In my case, the thing that made me most inclined to vote 'Leave' was how the EU treated Greece. While that was undoubtedly a difficult situation to resolve, it seemed that the rights of the people, including their democracy, were ignored to meet the financier's objectives. That was a system I wanted no part of, so seriously considered voting leave. However, it also seemed to me the costs of leaving were too great, so I ended up voting to stay in a less than satisfactory system, with the - albeit difficult - possibility of improving it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:26 PM

I will not, Greg! I will not! I am no Keith!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:26 PM

With so many intangibles being thrown into the air having heated arguments is rather pointless ... Leave and remain are entrenched positions on here and unlikely to change without someone making huge concessions and I consider that unlikely.

I agree with your second point. However, should there be a minor miracle and one side here completely convert to the other, it would not make a jot of difference to the outcome, which is being decided in rooms well beyond our influence. It would be possible to draw the conclusion that therefore we are just wasting our time talking at all: we should just sit here and be the passive recipients of anything that happens. That seems to add weight to your first point, but I don't think that is right. We are told more and more about "the bubble" where you only hear from people you agree with: there is a merit in hearing from those you don't agree with. It need not be about one side 'converting' the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:17 PM

Jaysus. Steve, you've got to get on board with the rest of the post-factual world, dontcha know.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:36 PM

The Guardian has a long history of inviting people of all political colours to write columns. In addition, the paper is not owned by a media proprietor. The Guardian gets lots of things wrong but it gets more right than most other papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:27 PM

I frequently reference Hansard, which rarely draws any comments either....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:22 PM

There are some who consider the Guardian to be extremely left wing newspaper. There are some who consider the Mail to be extremely left wing newspaper, figures in this regard were posted a few day ago.

The Guardian has long been considered by most discerning people to be a liberal paper. Thus my use of it as a source.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:21 PM

"I prefer to regard my line spacings as an aid to clarity."

"Raggytash. I also construct numerous links to offer support to the points I make. However it is a failing of many on here to look at the source provider(eg CNN) and then promptly rubbish the content. For the most part supposed facts can easily be checked. A political story will be reported by left, right and the center with the associated bias provided as a freebie.
However when it comes to Brexit the argument revolves around a total unknown, With so many intangibles being thrown into the air having heated arguments is rather pointless. The entire proposition is in a state of flux and quite honestly having heated arguments over hypothetical scenarios is a waste of time. Leave and remain are entrenched positions on here and unlikely to change without someone making huge concessions and I consider that unlikely. The two sides are never going to agree and if the postings exceed 10000 nothing will have changed.
I read your links but obviously they are chosen to back up your position. The Guardian is very good at presenting biased opinions as facts. Many on here present opinion as facts. Some of us make it a point to carefully discriminate between the two, others are more "careless".
   I could respond to your links in the way others do and rubbish the source but I would regard that as a cop out."


Bwahahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:01 PM

Usual response when shown to be in error, start claiming to be a victim, and insult others.

Spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:50 PM

Raggytash. I also construct numerous links to offer support to the points I make. However it is a failing of many on here to look at the source provider(eg CNN) and then promptly rubbish the content. For the most part supposed facts can easily be checked. A political story will be reported by left, right and the center with the associated bias provided as a freebie.
However when it comes to Brexit the argument revolves around a total unknown, With so many intangibles being thrown into the air having heated arguments is rather pointless. The entire proposition is in a state of flux and quite honestly having heated arguments over hypothetical scenarios is a waste of time. Leave and remain are entrenched positions on here and unlikely to change without someone making huge concessions and I consider that unlikely. The two sides are never going to agree and if the postings exceed 10000 nothing will have changed.
I read your links but obviously they are chosen to back up your position. The Guardian is very good at presenting biased opinions as facts. Many on here present opinion as facts. Some of us make it a point to carefully discriminate between the two, others are more "careless".
   I could respond to your links in the way others do and rubbish the source but I would regard that as a cop out.
Below is a typical example:

"Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 02:15 PM

Teribus, do you read anything other than pro-Brexit Tory Shit-Rags?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:02 PM

Iains, Nigel,

Have you anything to say on the issue of Brexit? Over the past few weeks I have linked to numerous newspaper articles on the subject.

I cannot recall any post either of you have made in response to those articles.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:30 PM

"Your mate Iains makes this comment, in a sentence of its own, TWO PARAGRAPHS away from the bit about Normandy beaches:"

The only specific time period mentioned is D Day. Now who was in charge of most of europe at this period of time? On D day only a few beach heads were held by the allies. Therefore to belabour the point for absolute clarity, most of Europe was under the control of the Nazi party at this time. Why deliberately introduce red herrings? Would you like some history books? For a well educated scientist I would have thought you might have learnt a few dates and be able to join a few dots in order to link events to a logical timeframe.
Perhaps if you ask Dave the gnome nicely he will be able to educate you, he being of Polish ancestry like.

I prefer to regard my line spacings as an aid to clarity. This is to aid those such as your goodself, but in your case it is obviously a lost cause. You may call them paragraphs if you wish, some may argue the point. I care not a whit either way. It is a device largely on a par with using indents or bullet points


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5367307/irish-pm-leo-varadkar-infuriates-leavers-after-suggesting-he-pities-british-ww2-veterans-o

Subject: RE: BS: Pos"t Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM

Well we won't have to worry about things like this after Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:12 PM

Hmm. Missing article, missing close bracket!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:10 PM

Incidentally, it's a shame that your quoted guru on the writing of good English can't actually, er, write good English. In the section you put in bold I spotted at least three basic errors, thus:

Example: English grammar is a complex topic that covers a range of information. At the "word" level, one must learn about parts of speech. At the "sentence" level, topics like [like?] sentence structure, subject/verb agreement, [any idea what that comma's doing there?] and clauses must be explored. The rules governing punctuation use are also a part of "sentence" level grammar. Once a person starts writing [missing article! larger piece, he or she must also learn about paragraph structure and organization. All of these rules define and describe how to write English correctly.

Just thought I'd mention it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM

'Ave a word in Nigel's shell-like, Iains. 'Twas he who "adjusted" your post, not I. I merely picked up on the fact that he'd done it, and done it quite likely for nefarious purposes, who knows. Now if it's all right with you I'm wanting to get back to the disaster aka brexit. Over and out with you on this one. I find you're not really worth it. You're way too jealous.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 01:50 PM

=I haven't corrected any grammar! What are you on about? :-)"

Were you not drivelling on mindlessly about paragraphs?

Here is some info on paragraphs to aid you in the future when looking for thread distraction topics:

Example: English grammar is a complex topic that covers a range of information. At the "word" level, one must learn about parts of speech. At the "sentence" level, topics like sentence structure, subject/verb agreement, and clauses must be explored. The rules governing punctuation use are also a part of "sentence" level grammar. Once a person starts writing larger piece, he or she must also learn about paragraph structure and organization. All of these rules define and describe how to write English correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 01:10 PM

Optimism will often get us further than pessimism.
As for my 'strategy', I have none. I'm not a politician.
Come to that, I don't feel I need a strategy.

That's one area we disagree. You do not need a strategy to solve the world, but I think we all need a strategy to explain why we voted as we did to our children and grandchildren and so on if it doesn't work out. No need to tell us how you would handle it, and believe me I hope as much as you do that this will not come to pass.   But to say you don't need to have thought about it? I disagree. And I am not sure "I feared something worse" will be enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 01:04 PM

I haven't corrected any grammar! What are you on about? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:56 AM

Having made a complete fool of himself he now pulls the schoolmaster act and starts to correct grammar. He has a short memory.
I will refresh it:

"From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 04:20 PM

Having your grammar/spelling/punctuation corrected is very annoying, but the beauty of it is that the person correcting you is invariably guilty of much more of said inelegance than you are"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM

Incidentally, Nigel, I noticed that when you "quoted" Iains' post in full you closed up his double-spacings between paragraphs. Now I wonder why a man with your attention to piffling detail would do that. Would it by any chance be because you wanted to make it look like the points in the paragraphs weren't quite as separated as they actually were? All in the one paragraph, like?

You've boxed yourself in here, Nigel. You really are better than this. Just move on, old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 10:15 AM

You couldn't make me a victim in a million years. You are making yourself a victim by allying yourself to Iains' ridiculous notions, about which you never say anything but, instead, prefer to pick up others on piffling little technicalities (which, in this case, doesn't apply anyway). Now let's have a little looksee at where we are on this. Your mate Iains makes this comment, in a sentence of its own, TWO PARAGRAPHS away from the bit about Normandy beaches:

"The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler."

Did you attend school, Nigel, where they told you that when you start a new paragraph it's because you are starting to make a new, separate point? And Hitler, dear chap, was around big-time from 1933 to 1945. Who are you to extrapolate from that bare little sentence about the precise intended timing of "back then?" He was attempting to "impose his values" all through that period, on his own people, via propaganda on countries he had yet to invade and by repression and aggression on those he had invaded. And one more thing. You incorrectly upbraid me on that point yet have nothing, NOTHING, to say about Iains' bonkers assertion that he fears that the EU is taking us down a path steered by Hitler's values (and that's only one out of many of the daft things he's said in this thread). By your fruits do we know thee, Nigel. You may think it's infra dig to admit that you're in hock with him, and who would blame you for that, but it's as plain as the nose on your face from your postings that you and he are in it together. Get a grip, Nigel, and just behave yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:57 AM

From: Steve Shaw
What a load of utter tosh, Nigel. That is a completely pointless and misdirected nitpick over a point that was perfectly well made. Not once have you berated Iains for any of his brainless and abusive posts, yet you nitpick mine in order to defend him and try to wrongfoot me. Yes you are clearly supporting him. You make a big thing about a tiny technicality (that changes nothing about the substantive issue to hand in any case) that you picked up in my post yet say nothing about the blatant nonsense in his. And your stalking predilection is returning. Get your priorities right and reset your own values, Nigel.

Usual response when shown to be in error, start claiming to be a victim, and insult others.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:43 AM

What a load of utter tosh, Nigel. That is a completely pointless and misdirected nitpick over a point that was perfectly well made. Not once have you berated Iains for any of his brainless and abusive posts, yet you nitpick mine in order to defend him and try to wrongfoot me. Yes you are clearly supporting him. You make a big thing about a tiny technicality (that changes nothing about the substantive issue to hand in any case) that you picked up in my post yet say nothing about the blatant nonsense in his. And your stalking predilection is returning. Get your priorities right and reset your own values, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:35 AM

From: Raggytash
I find it rather strange that the Leave supporters on here will gladly discuss anything but the subject matter of the thread.

Talk about Churchill, Hitler, the events of the 1930's and 40's are not relevant to changes happening to 21st Century Europe in the midst of Brexit.
I seem to remember that it was frequent off-topic comments by remainers that encouraged you to start a whole new thread on 'Football'

As for sticking to the subject matter of the thread, we are not yet 'post Brexit' so subject matter will be a little sparse (or based on predictions and suppositions)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:09 AM

I find it rather strange that the Leave supporters on here will gladly discuss anything but the subject matter of the thread.

Talk about Churchill, Hitler, the events of the 1930's and 40's are not relevant to changes happening to 21st Century Europe in the midst of Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:57 AM

Don't be so bloody stupid, Nigel. My comment was not linked to his Normandy beaches point, which came two paragraphs earlier in his post. Before, during and after they were invaded, all those countries had "values" completely at variance with Hitler's. The clear suggestion in his remark was that the only "values" prevailing at the time were Hitler's. Read it again and keep your silly insults to yourself. And consider for a moment exactly who it is you are defending. Read his last two days' posts in this thread for example. Looks like it's about time you reset some of your own values.

Iain's post was:
IRISH PM Leo Varadkar feels sorry for British WW2 veterans over Brexit.
The Dublin chief claimed Tommies who stormed the Normandy beaches on D-Day were doing so 'for European values'.
Christ on a bike... or for supposed historical accuracy perhaps it should be on a donkey!
The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler. Some of us are concerned the un-elected bureaucrats might be toddling off down the road to a similar nightmare.
The lessons of history are never learnt by some, and some apparently cannot learn history especially that varadar character.

The comment about European values 'then' must relate to a particular time, already mentioned in the discussion, so places 'then' as d-day.
So you were responding to a comment about D-Day as if the countries had not yet been attacked.
I'm not being insulting, nor am I supporting Iains. I'm pointing out the total lack of logic in some of the arguments you are presenting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:45 AM

An interesting article in todays Guardian giving a European perspective. I think the most telling paragraph which applies to some on this site is:

"Much like Donald Trump, the Brexiteers have proven themselves immune to information or insight that does not meet their emotional needs. This must be why they continue to hope and insist that in order to avoid this proliferation of new barriers to trade, the EU will relent and allow Britain to have its cake and eat it – to forget about the obligations of EU membership while continuing to enjoy its many advantages.

This simply will not happen."

The remainder of the article can be found here:
Link

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:39 AM

Don't be so bloody stupid, Nigel. My comment was not linked to his Normandy beaches point, which came two paragraphs earlier in his post. Before, during and after they were invaded, all those countries had "values" completely at variance with Hitler's. The clear suggestion in his remark was that the only "values" prevailing at the time were Hitler's. Read it again and keep your silly insults to yourself. And consider for a moment exactly who it is you are defending. Read his last two days' posts in this thread for example. Looks like it's about time you reset some of your own values.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:08 AM

"The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler."

"Back then" the European countries about to be invaded by Hitler, such as Poland, Norway, France, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, etc., all had "values" very different from those of Hitler. They weren't all populated by anarchistic savages with no values, believe it or not. Your remark is vacuous.

Read it a little more carefully.
Iain's statement about Varadkar The Dublin chief claimed Tommies who stormed the Normandy beaches on D-Day were doing so 'for European values'.

At the time of the Normandy invasion those countries were not 'about to be invaded'. They had already been overrun.
perhaps you need to read a little more history rather than suggesting others should!