BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:49 AM

Jim I fail to see the point you are making.
Britain was allied with Stalin and Chiang Ki Shek during WW2.

Do you not realise expediency makes for strange bedfellows.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:35 AM

"Britain was allied with Stalin and Chiang Ki Shek during WW2."
Despite Trumps best efforts, we are not at war
Terubus put up Portugal as historically reliable - I pointed out that they were a fascist state up to 1974 - how reliable is that?
This love-affair wasn't an expediency measure - it was "the marriage of true minds" - a match made in heaven, in fact
I'm not a great fan of either Stalin and Chiang Ki Shek, so I fail to see your addressing this to me
Back to Brexit
The rights and wrongs of taking the decision to leave aside, the present leadership seems to be staggering from crisis to crisis over implementing the decision
Mayflower naused up her majority in an attempt to strengthen her hand and was forced to bung a Party with terrorist connections £1billion of the taxpayers money to clean up her mess
She has now been forced to appeal to the contenders for her position to "put Britain first rather than their own political ambitions"
Predictions on the budget show that the present shitty position of the have-nots in Britain will remain unaltered and almost certainly deteriorate due to the uncertain economic future of trade and industry
I told them there'd be tears before bedtime, but did they listen?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 07:23 AM

Jim:
Mayflower naused up her majority in an attempt to strengthen her hand and was forced to bung a Party with terrorist connections £1billion of the taxpayers money to clean up her mess

You frequently berate other users (not me) for deliberate miss-use of your given name. You can correctly name Salazar & Chiang Ki Shek. Does not Theresa May deserve similar courtesy?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:16 AM

"Terubus put up Portugal as historically reliable - I pointed out that they were a fascist state up to 1974"

Yet ANOTHER Jim Carroll misrepresentation!!!

A number of points Jom:

1: Where exactly did I say that Portugal was "historically reliable" (Whatever that means")

I believe I merely pointed out that Portugal was ENGLAND's oldest ally in Europe - a historical fact.

2: Portugal has been recognised as a sovereign independent state since 1143. Which makes it 874 years old, in that time it was a right wing dictatorship between 1933 and 1974 a total of 41 years or 4.7% of the time it has been an independent country. So Carroll could also have stated and pointed out that Portugal has not been a fascist state for 95.3% of the time that it has been in existence.

What is your point Jom?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM

"What is your point Jom?"
I think the point here is you are incapable of responding in an adult fashion to anyboody who doesn't subscribe to your own inflated opinion of yourself
You appear not to be bright enough to work out that your loutish behaviour acts as flag indicating that yoiu are at a loss for an intelligent answer
Britain's friendship with a fascist state is always worth a mention as far as I'm concerned
"Does not Theresa May deserve similar courtesy?"
You are not seriously putting the politicians who act like clowns and consistently screw us out of bounds are you Nigel
If they can lie their way into power, than I feel perfectly at ease taking the piss out of them in any way I can
Does a politician who does deals with terrorist linked parties, bungs them a billion of the taxpayers money as a bribe and screws up her own majority deserve our courtesy - what do you think Nigel?
Seesh - what a question!!!
Really made my day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:14 AM

Cameron disrespected the whole country by calling a referendum that was all about seeing off his own hardliners and UKIP. May disrespected the whole country by calling an election which was entirely about her own party's interests and nothing to do with the country's interests. During her campaign she disrespected Corbyn time and time again. To her cost, I'm delighted to say. You don't "deserve" courtesy. You earn it, or at least you don't forfeit the right to it. She has not earned it and she has it coming as far as I'm concerned. I can think of far stronger names than Mayflower I'd like to call her. Don't you ever look at political cartoons, Nigel? And, while you're castigating Jim for that peccadillo, how about castigating those on your side of the argument who consistently refuse to address us by the names we choose to use here?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:20 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:14 AM
Cameron disrespected the whole country by calling a referendum that was all about seeing off his own hardliners and UKIP. May disrespected the whole country by calling an election which was entirely about her own party's interests and nothing to do with the country's interests. During her campaign she disrespected Corbyn time and time again. To her cost, I'm delighted to say. You don't "deserve" courtesy. You earn it, or at least you don't forfeit the right to it. She has not earned it and she has it coming as far as I'm concerned. I can think of far stronger names than Mayflower I'd like to call her. Don't you ever look at political cartoons, Nigel? And, while you're castigating Jim for that peccadillo, how about castigating those on your side of the argument who consistently refuse to address us by the names we choose to use here?

You seem to have have missed the whole point with your argument. I am not supporting those who miss-use Jim's given name. I'm pointing out that Jim, or yourself, should conduct yourselves in the way you expect others to conduct themselves. I do not address comments to "Jom" or "Carroll" and I can understand why he gets annoyed with those who do. But he can hardly complain about it if he does the same for the names of others. (Such as calling Theresa May "Mayflower"). I was pointing out his double standards in this respect.

As to "deserving" courtesy, it is not the same as 'respect' in that it needs to be earned. If you treat someone with a lack of courtesy, it reflects not upon that person, but on you.

If you were a teacher, you may have expected a class to greet you with "Good morning, sir." That does not show that you have earned their respect (as it is expected of every class even before they get to know the teacher) it is a sign that they are being taught to act courteously.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:10 PM

The "Cameron calling the referendum" nonsense I thought that Nigel Parsons had completely rubbished that. Very boring of you Shaw to persist with it, but nobody would expect anything else from you.

Now back to Carroll (For whom I have no respect whatsoever) that keen self-proclaimed student of "history", who always seems to get things spectacularly wrong. I would have thought that being a keen self-proclaimed student of history he would know the difference between ENGLAND, Great Britain and the United Kingdom. Carroll obviously does not. Portugal being ENGLAND's oldest ally in Europe has got absolutely S.F.A. to do with who Great Britain cozied up to in the years 1933 to 1974. In actual fact Great Britain was somewhat less than friendly towards Salazar's Portugal when Goa declared itself independent in 1961.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:11 PM

I told all my classes never to call me "sir." I tried to build the relationship on politeness and a friendly demeanour all round. We can reserve "sir" for knights of the realm and for use by policemen booking me for speeding when they ask me the Great Unanswerable Question, "Didn't you see the speed limit sign back there, sir?"

Calling politicians names and lampooning them is all par for the course. 'Twas ever thus. In fact, it's a healthy sign that we live in a democracy and not a dictatorship, in which "disrespecting" leaders could cost you your head. It is not the same on this forum as we are addressing each other, not third parties who aren't listening. There has been a very persistent trend for two members here to call Jim "Jom" or "Carroll" and me "Shaw." Yes plenty of us are guilty of indulging in similar practices at times, it can't be gainsaid. However, the Shaw, Jom And Carroll are hostile attempts at talking down by two people who are singularly unqualified to talk down to anyone. I remember way back in the seventies when the school at which I taught got a new headmaster. He thought he could swan in and address the staff by their surnames only. He soon discovered that he couldn't, because we adopted a strict policy among ourselves of not recognising that he was addressing us at all until he decided to become a little more polite. That learned him.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:16 PM

I see your telling-off for being high on the list of problem posters is wearing off, Teribus. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:24 PM

declared itself independent in 1961.
Salazar was found to be a fascist in 1933
The fact that it took thirty years to break the friendship oof these two bosom buddies seems to me to be a case of theives falling out
" Carroll (For whom I have no respect whatsoever)"
Nice to know I still have you on the back-foot
You'll never learn, will you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:31 PM

Hardly hostile - Shaw and Carroll do happen to be your names.

Jom on the other hand was how the man himself signed off one of his own posts so I cannot see his objection to it - or yours Shaw. It is rather funny that the only "names" you "object to" are those mentioned, while both of you find no problem with those used by yourselves and others.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:58 PM

Just one more time for a self-proclaimed student of history:

Portugal is ENGLAND's oldest ally in Europe

ENGLAND - Jom - ceased being the signatory of any international agreements, alliances or treaties after the year 1707.

Now what were those Salazar dates again Jom? Before or AFTER 1707?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:33 PM

I didn't mention agreements Teribus and your "jom" makes it quite clear that you are fully aware of that fact and need to strut and bully to save face
You don't need a piece of paper to cozy up to a fascist regime - just something in common with them
You weer the one who described Portugal as "England's oldest ally in Europe" and pointed out that "the alliance goes back centuries"
If you don't want to lose a foot, don't open your mouth.
"Hardly hostile - Shaw and Carroll do happen to be your names."
Pathetic little man
Hilarious scenes at the Tory party conference
AS Mayfly fluttered her way through her speech, the board bearing the Tory Party slogan behind her head began to shed its letters one by one (very symbolic) and someone ran up and handed her her P45 (even more symbolic)
There certainly is no business like show business
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM

" how about castigating those on your side of the argument who consistently refuse to address us by the names we choose to use here?"
What a sensitive little flower. Has your usage of Inanes slipped your mind?
I believe respect has to be earned. Now I would be the first to admit that there are a couple that post here that periodically I find hard work. However you are in a league of your own stevie boy. Rest assured, I hold you in the deepest contempt and it will be an epic journey down a long winding road before you will have reformed sufficiently to earn my respect. Just look at your postings through the eyes of those on the receiving end. Overbearing,bullying, sanctimonious, priggish, arrogant to name but a few of your less desirable qualities that are displayed to excess each time you post.That is in addition to your inane posturing and quack diagnoses of a persons supposed insecurity.Besides boasting of being a well educated scientist do you flog snake oil on the markets down in Cornwall?You have some gall to dare criticize others on this forum!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:01 PM

"What a sensitive little flower. Has your usage of Inanes slipped your mind?"
You are as simple minded as your strutting mate but not as experienced at it
Grow up foir fuck's sake, it's lioke dealing with dysfunctional children
You are not even imaginative enough to be original
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:04 PM

Hi Steve

It sounds like the same restaurant that we used all those years ago.

We never tried the Garoupa ( Grouper Fish ?)
But I had several times the Dorada Sea Bream).My wife preferred sea bass - Robala if I remember rightly. Delicious.

We did the Blandy's Tour too. .....but we didn't roll out with 6 bottles, although it felt like I'd supped 6 bottles in the tasting room...lol

I really don't care if Portugal was facist under Salavar. I found the peopleto be courteous and friendly and always ready to help. One we went walking around the rocks and shore and several hours later that I had lost my wallet which contained all my money,credit cards and return air tickets. I went to the police station in Funchal. Within three minutes my wallet was returned entact. I asked the Police who returned it and they told me it was a shop keeper from down the road. I went and met the lady and thanked her. I offered her some money and she point blank refused it. I prefer to judge people as they are today

Would that have happened in England......I doubt it.

Steve I am pleased to hear the you are going back. You will be remembered and treated well.

Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:12 PM

'Double standard & hypocrisy' from the EU. Catalan NO, Kosovo YES

https://www.rt.com/news/405659-catalonia-referendum-spain-serbia/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM

Ooh, touchy little Inanes! Can you read? For your benefit (and Teribus's - he missed it too) I'll say it again.

Ahem.

"Yes plenty of us are guilty of indulging in similar practices at times, it can't be gainsaid."

Did you both manage to catch it that time? Seems as though you both could have used a bit of schooling!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM

"You weer the one who described Portugal as "England's oldest ally in Europe" and pointed out that "the alliance goes back centuries"

Portugal is England's oldest ally in Europe - In fact it is the oldest treaty in the world

The alliance does go back centuries, signed as it was on 16 June 1373 between King Edward III of England and King Ferdinand and Queen Eleanor of Portugal - That is going back centuries isn't it?

With regard to Salazar, that fascist you were on about, the treaty ensured agreement with regard to Portuguese neutrality during the Second World War and kept the Iberian Peninsula out of the war. Salazar, that fascist you were on about granted Great Britain use of airbases in the Azores to help combat the German U-boats during the Battle of the Atlantic - So in ensuring the defeat of the fascist Axis Powers during the Second world War, that Portuguese fascist Salazar did a damned sight more that "good ol' Dev" did in Dublin.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:23 PM

Dunno whether the people in mainland Portugal are the same, but everyone we met in Madeira was utterly gracious, helpful and charming. We didn't have to pick up those bottles until we got to the duty-free beyond security, Mike, though we paid for them at Blandy's (great arrangement!) and they were in two decidedly sealed bags! I hasten to add that most of them are prezzies for people!

Most...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:25 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM
Ooh, touchy little Inanes
There you go again. "Sauce for the goose . . ." ?

Did you both manage to catch it that time? Seems as though you both could have used a bit of schooling!

Presumably you benefitted from "a bit of schooling". Perhaps you need to read Alexander Pope on that subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:34 PM

You're getting a bit literal in your youth/middle age/old age, Nigel (delete as applicable). Try doing subtle. Try reading between the lines. Try to be a bit less po-faced. Let's have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:34 PM

"that Portuguese fascist Salazar did a damned sight more that "good ol' Dev" did in Dublin."
Salazar remained in Power and remained a fascist until his death in 1970 - his fascist government survived for another four years - still Britain's closest ally apart from minor spats
I have no more time for Dev than I have for any of this lot - but at least they backed away from Stalin when they found what he was while good old Britain remained friends with Salazar, who, maybe not so coincidentally, was still around whien Madd Maggie's mentor was butchering, raping and torturing his way through the Chilean young people in SANTIAGO STADIUM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:47 PM

That's a beautiful piece, Jim. Cheers for that. When I read it I don't want to think of Thatcher's sycophantic support of Pinochet, as the people mentioned in the piece are totally without bitterness. But I can't help it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:34 AM

"Salazar remained in Power and remained a fascist until his death in 1970"

Franco lasted in Spain until 1975, "Communists and left-wing critics called his regime "fascist", but academics typically categorize it as conservative and authoritarian." The nature of the regime in Spain changed markedly over the period Franco was in power. The same can be said of Salazar's regime in Portugal. "Salazar founded and led the Estado Novo ("New State"), the corporatist authoritarian government that ruled Portugal until 1974. The Estado Novo collapsed during the Carnation Revolution of 1974. Evaluations of his regime have varied, however, there is a general consensus that Salazar was one of the most influential figures in Portuguese history."

This by the way was the Portugal that Salazar grew up in:

The era of the First Republic (1910 to 1926) has been described as one of "continual anarchy, government corruption, rioting and pillage, assassinations, arbitrary imprisonment and religious persecution". It witnessed the inauguration of eight presidents, 44 cabinet re-organisations and 21 revolutions. The first government of the Republic lasted less than 10 weeks and the longest-ruling government lasted little over a year. Revolution in Portugal became a byword in Europe. The cost of living increased twenty-fivefold, while the currency fell to a ?1/33 part of its gold value. Portugal's public finances and the economy in general entered a critical phase, having been under imminent threat of default since at least the 1890s. The gaps between the rich and the poor continued to widen. The regime led Portugal to enter World War I in 1916, a move that only aggravated the perilous state of affairs in the country. Concurrently, the Catholic Church was hounded by the anti-clerical Freemasons of the Republic and political assassination and terrorism became general. Between 1920 and 1925, according to official police figures, 325 bombs burst in the streets of Lisbon. The British diplomat Sir George Rendel said that he could not describe the "political background as anything but deplorable... very different from the orderly, prosperous and well-managed country that it later became under the government of Senhor Salazar". Salazar would keep in mind the political chaos of this time when he later ruled Portugal..........

Salazar was a law graduate who specialised in finance and the economic policy. After the military revolutionary coup in 1926 Salazar reluctantly entered government after much pleading and persuasion as Finance Minister in 1928, with Portugal under the threat of an imminent financial collapse:

"he personally secured from Carmona a categorical assurance that as finance minister he would have a free hand to veto expenditure in all government departments, not just his own. Salazar was the financial czar virtually from the day he took office.
Within one year, armed with special powers, Salazar balanced the budget and stabilised Portugal's currency. Restoring order to the national accounts, enforcing austerity and red-penciling waste, Salazar produced the first of many budgetary surpluses, an unparalleled novelty in Portugal"

In 1932 Salazar became Portugal's 100th Prime Minister:

"The authoritarian government consisted of a right-wing coalition, and he was able to co-opt the moderates of each political current with the aid of censorship and repression directed against those outside of it. Those perceived to be genuine fascists were jailed or exiled. Conservative Catholics were Salazar's earliest and most loyal supporters, whereas conservative republicans who could not be co-opted became his most dangerous opponents during the early period. They attempted several coups, but never presented a united front, consequently these attempts were easily repressed. Never a true monarchist, Salazar nevertheless gained most of the monarchists' support, as Manuel II of Portugal, the exiled and deposed last king of Portugal, always endorsed Salazar. Later, in 1932, it was due to Salazar's actions that the deposed king was given a state funeral."

Now then Carroll, take heed of this bit:

"The National Syndicalists were torn between supporting the regime and denouncing it as bourgeois. They were granted enough symbolic concessions for Salazar to win over the moderates, but the rest were repressed by the political police. They were silenced shortly after 1933 as Salazar attempted to PREVENT THE RISE OF NATIONAL SOCIALISM IN PORTUGAL". What a strange thing for a "fascist" to do. As is this:

"Just before World War II, Salazar made this declaration: "We are opposed to all forms of Internationalism, Communism, Socialism, Syndicalism and everything that may divide or minimise, or break up the family. We are against class warfare, irreligion and disloyalty to one's country; against serfdom, a materialistic conception of life, and might over right."

Shaw was wondering how he would be received in Madeira after we left the EU. That is how we got onto this diversion of yours Carroll. I still stick to my original answer to Shaw's question - No different to how he was treated before.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 03:59 AM

"I have no more time for Dev than I have for any of this lot - but at least they backed away from Stalin when they found what he was while good old Britain remained friends with Salazar, who, maybe not so coincidentally, was still around whien Madd Maggie's mentor was butchering, raping and torturing his way through the Chilean young people in SANTIAGO STADIUM
Jim Carroll


1: "No time for good ol' Dev" Jim?? But he is a hero of yours, one of the "men of the gun" from 1916 who did so much to completely fuck up any hope of a united Ireland. The man who opted for not one but two wars and screwed up the economy of the fledgling Irish Nation.

2: This "Stalin" that everybody backed away from. Was that the same Stalin referred to in the "Good old Joe" banner you were so proud about being photographed under? The same Stalin that your relatives and Ewan McColl were in tears over when he died? The same Stalin that murdered ~50 million of his own people?

3: Think that we have shown that Salazar was NOT a fascist in any sense of the word.

4: What proof is there that Margaret Thatcher even knew Augusto Pinochet in 1973? He certainly was not her "Mentor" as you describe, she was already Prime Minister by the time the UK Government had any dealings with Chile and the regime of Augusto Pinochet.

As a self-proclaimed keen student of history you certainly seem to have an amazing lack of being able to grasp the concepts of detail and timelines.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 04:22 AM

"3: Think that we have shown that Salazar was NOT a fascist in any sense of the word"

Amazing if you consider that was "Opposed to democracy, communism, socialism, anarchism and liberalism" (wiki) and that "Salazar used heavy-handed censorship and a ubiquitous secret police to quell opposition, especially that related to the Communist movement" (again Wiki) together with "Salazar relied on secret police to enforce the policies he wished to implement" (Once again Wiki)

No, not a fascist in any sense of the word!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 05:28 AM

Be careful who you defend, Teribus. That kind of thing defines you, and you use it yourself to define your perceived adversaries here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:11 AM

Why so confrontational in view Shaw?

Who is "defending" anyone?

Certain statements were made by our self-proclaimed keen student of history that I disagree with in relation to their accuracy.

Perhaps you, Shaw could, elaborate and tell me where my observations are at fault.

What was Eamon de Valera's contribution to the fight against "fascism" during the Second World War? I can tell you (Already have) Salazar and Portugal's.

In other recent threads Jim Carroll has strenuously defended Stalin, his reputation and his record.

Salazar imprisoned fascists in Portugal from 1933 onward and prevented the rise of "national socialism" in Portugal. Hardly what you would expect from someone Raggy and Carroll describe as being a fascist.

At what point in either of their political careers was Augusto Pinochet the mentor of Margaret Thatcher? - That is what Carroll claimed wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:19 AM

" But he is a hero of yours, one of the "men of the gun" from 1916 "
I suppose somebody who refuses to back anything up with evidence can say what they please about anything so I won't bother erquesting yu to produce a single statement of mine praising Dev
The "men with the guns were the same ar those who took up arms against the various predatory Empires and eventually kicked their areses back to where they belonged" India, Cyprus, Kenya..... whichever till Britain had its grubby little hand
Dev was never one of those - he was always happy to let others do the dirty work - Collins being a cse in point.
"you were so proud about being photographed under? "
Same as point one - you
won't produce my sayin I was "proud" of any such thing - I stated the facts about the photograph to illustrate how Stalin was regarded by Britain as a whole
When did you become divorced from reality anf honesty, or where you never married to it?
"Think that we have shown that Salazar was NOT a fascist in any sense of the word."
Wki entry
After the Portuguese coup d'état of 28 May 1926, Salazar entered public life with the support of President Óscar Carmona, initially as finance minister and later as prime minister. Opposed to democracy, communism, socialism, anarchism and liberalism, the ideology of Portugal was conservative and nationalist in nature under his rule. Salazar also promoted Catholicism, but argued that the role of the Church was social, not political, and negotiated the Concordat of 1940. One of the mottos of the Salazar regime was "Deus, Pátria e Familia" (meaning "God, Fatherland, and Family").[1]
"What proof is there that Margaret Thatcher even knew Augusto Pinochet in 1973? "
Who on earth said she did ?
"By Julie Hyland
9 October 1999
The highlight of the past week's Conservative Party conference was a packed meeting on Wednesday evening addressed by former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, entitled "General Pinochet: the only political prisoner in Britain".
In a hall bedecked with Chilean flags, Thatcher was flanked by two Chilean senators, former chancellor Norman Lamont and Pinochet's son, Marco Antonio. Met by rapturous applause, she decried the extradition proceedings against the former dictator as "international lynch law", "judicial kidnap" and the equivalent of a "police state".
The case against Pinochet was a "Marxist" plot, Thatcher claimed. "The left can't forgive" Pinochet for defeating communism and successfully transforming Chile into a model free market economy, she continued, and were taking revenge on one of “Britain's greatest friends”.
Thatcher had not addressed a Tory Party conference for nine years. That she used the occasion to make such an outspoken defence of a fascist dictator epitomised the lurch to the right witnessed throughout the conference. On every front, Thatcher loyalists dominated proceedings and advanced policies that went further than those implemented by her government, prior to her fall from leadership in 1990."
That's my good deef for the day
I'm off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:41 AM

Hmmmmmmmm If it looks like fascism, tastes like fascism and smells like fascism I guess some people will still not consider it fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:55 AM

Hmmmmmmmmmm ......... Raggy what may look like fascism to you and your rather deranged pal Carroll may well be nothing of the sort:

Franco's Spain - "Communists and left-wing critics called his regime "fascist", but academics typically categorize it as conservative and authoritarian." - I'll go with the historian's, biographers and academics.

Salazar's Portugal - "Salazar founded and led the Estado Novo ("New State"), the corporatist authoritarian government that ruled Portugal until 1974."

Whatever Salazar's Government was it was obviously a damned sight better than what had preceded it since 1910 as borne out by the " general consensus that Salazar was one of the most influential figures in Portuguese history." Salazar took a country renown for inefficiency, corruption and indebtedness, that had been in chaos for decades and transformed it into the orderly, prosperous and well-managed country that it later became. Once again I will go with recorded fact and the better informed opinions of historians, biographers and academics.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:59 AM

Of course you will "Communists and left-wing critics" are not to be trusted are they .............

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:03 AM

Were we to have a popularity contest would ever Blessed Maggie win or Bliar Blair?

Her Majesty's evil little helper.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:04 AM

FRANCOS "CONSERVATISM"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:08 AM

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-spanish-holocaust-inquisition-and-extermination-in-twentieth-century-spain-by-paul-preston-7468500.html
MORE

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM

Much as I do not like Tony Blair, it needs to be pointed out that this agreement came into place 3 years AFTER he resigned as both Prime Minister and Leader of the Labour Party. Bit of a none story really.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:26 AM

Raggytash. Does a leopard change his spots? It is merely his career progression.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 09:40 AM

My God. Who's the next fascist dictator you're going to defend, Teribus? Does his surname begin with H?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 11:30 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 09:40 AM

My God. Who's the next fascist dictator you're going to defend, Teribus? Does his surname begin with H?

Guessing that by 'H' you mean Hitler. You forfeit!

there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned Adolf Hitler has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.[7] This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law

From Here

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 11:52 AM

Not applicable in this instance, unfortunately. We are in a conversation about fascist dictators. Bringing Hitler's name into that is hardly gratuitous. Anyway, how do you know I didn't mean Habyarimana or Hussein? ??

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 12:08 PM

Give me the name of a fascist dictator that I have defended, might make a good start Shaw before progressing to asking which one will be the next one.

Of the two leaders I have mentioned and gone into in detail opinion varies Franco in Spain sought the help of the Nazis in Germany and the Fascists in Italy in order to defeat the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War. He remained neutral during the Second World War but leant towards the Axis more than likely because he felt obliged to do so for past favours rendered - doesn't mean that he himself was a fascist. The similarities between the regimes of Nazi Germany and the U.S.S.R are so slight that you couldn't slide a cigarette paper between them - does that make them both "fascist"? His government is most accurately described as being "conservative and authoritarian".

Salazar in Portugal remained neutral throughout the Second World War but managed to help the Allies in the most important battle of the war. He jailed and suppressed those he believed to be genuine fascists and found the German form of national socialism particularly abhorrent. So what form of fascist was he Shaw? - Salazar's government is most accurately described as being "corporatist authoritarian".

Not my labels, but those of academics and scholars who know a damned sight more about it than either you, or I.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 12:34 PM

But while you are in the mood to explain things Shaw - what about this one that you conveniently ducked:

At what point in either of their political careers was Augusto Pinochet the mentor of Margaret Thatcher? - That is what Carroll claimed wasn't it?

Yar tis so as there's no doubt:

"I have no more time for Dev than I have for any of this lot - but at least they backed away from Stalin when they found what he was while good old Britain remained friends with Salazar, who, maybe not so coincidentally, was still around whien Madd Maggie's mentor was butchering, raping and torturing his way through the Chilean young people in SANTIAGO STADIUM" - Jim Carroll

I find it difficult to believe that it slipped your mind after all you found it such a "beautiful piece Jim" - pity it's all a load of bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:39 PM

It is a puzzle as to why Steve Shaw should be asked to justify something posted by Jim Carroll, especially when one considers the person asking the question.

Just my opinion of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:51 PM

Primarily Raggy, because I know that Jom is not going to answer, or clarify his idiotic assertion and as Shaw thought it was so beautiful I took it that he must know when it was that Augusto Pinochet was Margaret Thatcher's mentor. Turns out he doesn't, neither I dare say do you because we all know, like most of Jom's strident assertions - it was a load of bollocks - I am merely pointing that out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:23 PM

It was a lovely piece, devoid of bitterness, with human scale, about the Estadio Nacional in Santiago where the massacre took place in 1973. I said nothing about Thatcher or Pinochet in that post. You really are a twisted, bitter, sniping, negative, charmless, problem poster, aren’t you, Bill “Teribus” Woodcock?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 01:34 AM

That so called "BEAUTIFUL PIECE" also happened to be devoid of truth or fact Shaw. I know YOU didn't mention Pinochet or Thatcher, but Jom did in a totally misrepresentative way that you and your pals do not seem to have any problem with, yet you all seem to get rather "arsey" when it is pointed out - Bill "Teribus" Woodcock eh? Waz-up "teach" getting upset because the discussion is not going your way - AGAIN - I take it now that the effort to get this thread closed will go into overdrive, as you and your pals have done so often in the past.

So can we now all take it that, due to your lack of response and a total lack of any supporting, substantive, evidence to back up Carroll's deranged claims, at no time at all was Pinochet ever Thatcher's mentor.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 04:27 AM

I don’t ask YOU to defend everything that Keith, Iains, akenaton, Stanron, Nigel or robocop say, do I?   I’m getting a bit worried about you, mate, what with this and your inability to recognise a fascist at zero paces...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 04:43 AM

In terms of getting threads closed I would think a "problem poster" is a bigger menace than those who haven't been publicly rebuked.

Just my two pennies worth.