BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:07 AM

Bombardier: May 'bitterly disappointed' as US tariff puts jobs at risk


Here in the UK we're getting a little taste of life after we've left the EU following El Trumpo's decision to slap a 219% tariff on Bombardier, so jeopardising 4,000 jobs in the North of Ireland. More to the point, the government actually played this deal straight down the line, landed it fairly and squarely but still ordinary working people might suffer because of the whim of a fat orange idiot. Without influence as part of the worlds largest trading block, we're just back to being a small island with an over-inflated opinion of itself and at the mercy of the likes of Trump.

This is our world now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:10 AM

We are still full members of the EU so this dispute has nothing to do with Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:26 AM

We won't have the EU as an alternative market, that's what it's got to do with it - if there's a comparable product from an EU manufacturer, that's what EU airlines will buy.

The point of Brexit is to make the UK a dependency of the US, and this tariff shows how the US treats its dependencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:44 AM

"The point of Brexit is to make the UK a dependency of the US, and this tariff shows how the US treats its dependencies"

Now where the hell did that come from? I thought and believe that the point of Brexit was to open up avenues to the developing world, of course a positive trade deal with the US would be great and in the interests of both countries.
There are quite a few points to Brexit, not least the control of how many people come here and the necessity to train our own people when the parasitic economic policy of "Free movement" is abandoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:54 AM

I thought and believe that the point of Brexit was to open up avenues to the developing world, of course a positive trade deal with the US would be great and in the interests of both countries.

You thought wrong. The point of it was to retain the tax fiddles being used by the mega-rich (threatened after 2019 by EU tax harmonization rules) and sneak in a Nazi-style enabling law to make a wholesale bonfire of all the progressive legislation created in the last 200 years.

No new trade deal with non-EU countries is on the horizon, and several countries (Australia, |Japan, New Zealand for three) have recently snubbed the UK to make deals with the EU instead. If the US was interested in a "positive trade deal" this prohibitive tariff wouldn't have been imposed. They're treating the UK as another Honduras.

But then you already knew that. A fascist banana republic isn't likely to go after people torturing dogs for money.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 08:35 AM

A loss of jobs in UK if this happens, but let's just add a few facts.
Bombardier Transportation is the rail equipment division of the Canadian firm Bombardier Inc. Its headquarters are in Berlin.

It would be just as easy for Canada or Germany to have prevented this work being done in UK. And, the withdrawal may be America 'getting at' UK, or Germany, or Canada.

And, despite the opening comment, this is happening while we are part of the EU trading bloc.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 08:46 AM

Don't look so sad, I know it's over. But life goes on, and this old world will keep on turning.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 09:16 AM

"Don't look so sad, I know it's over."
A littl smug and ostrich like when you consider there are 900,000 Brits living nd working in Europe who now stand to sent packing - at least 30,000 of them are drawing dole
Bombardier is merely a tiny tip of a very large iceberg
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 09:40 AM

I know it's happening whilst we're still part of the EU. Doh.

That is not the point. The point is we will be vulnerable to these sort of punitive measures from our new trading partners because as a lone country outside of the EU we have little clout.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Ed.
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 10:01 AM

You might care to read this article, Nigel...

Brexiters are being naive over US trade

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 10:01 AM

When Bush put up the steel tariffs threatening UK jobs the WTO ruled against them the US totally ignored the ruling (clue: they don't care). Then the EU came in to back us up, threatened tariffs on US imports and hey presto! Bush backed down.

This collective bargaining is gone, and expecting the EU to back us up now when our incompetent government is flailing around in the Brexit negations and royally pissing johnny foreigner off, is either being a tad naive or wilfully ignorant.

Nope, we've taken back control and are on our own. Triffic, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 10:54 AM

From: Ed. - PM
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 10:01 AM
You might care to read this article, Nigel...
Brexiters are being naïve over US trade

Okay, I've read that.
It seems this is triggered because of disputes between USA & Canada (something I suggested above).
It is also clear that the arguments about relative market size are exactly the same ones that those in favour of Brexit have been making about the future EU/UK trade position.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 11:09 AM

"But then you already knew that. A fascist banana republic isn't likely to go after people torturing dogs for money."


Would the moderators show just how unbiased they are by deleting this disgraceful slur.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 11:38 AM

"how unbiased they are by deleting this disgraceful slur."
You have hurled every insult imaginable at people who disagree with you - your lates offering in defence of a church that has systematically covered facilitated child rape is that, because I (from a Catholic family surrounded by Catholic neighbours) hate Catholics and persecute their religion
I have no intention of taking this any further but if you can't take it, don't dish it out
End of story
Any chance you're going to respond to the likely influx if British refugees from Europe Nigel?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 11:59 AM

Jim you may be able to countenance lying, but I am not. I do not "torture dogs for money" or for any other reason. Neither do I know any greyhound people who do so, these animals are extremely valuable and lovable, the sport is extremely well regulate.
Mr Campin like most of the Anti Greyhound Racing brigade is talking through his arse.

This topic has nothing to do with the thread, but as an owner and trainer, I have been obliged to defend myself against the slur.

Mod....please delete this after dealing with Mr Campin.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 12:15 PM

Look, could you two get a room please? Or at least take your lover's spat elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 12:17 PM

"Look, could you two get a room please? Or at least take your lover's spat elsewhere."
I was intending to leave this there Stu - please don't prolong it
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 12:29 PM

"I was intending to leave this there Stu - please don't prolong it"

Get stuffed. You're here causing trouble again, ignoring the OP and perpetuating a feud and you have the cheek to say I'M prolonging it?


Shut the fucking thread please. This idiocy is proving a real bind.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 01:07 PM

Nah, leave it open. I want to be optimistic. There will be no brexit. I know this because the Daily Mail said that May is engineering an abandonment of brexit. I hasten to add that I didn't buy the paper. I saw it in a rack in a shop with the headline showing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 01:22 PM

Disgraceful personal attack on Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 01:28 PM

Looks like Corbyn is making the running, what with a Tory Cabinet led by an eejit at each others throats and a vision of Britain's trade and jobs going down the pan
All we need now is Trump threatening to send in the marines
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 02:22 PM

PM received from Jim:

"What the fuck are you doing Stu
Your's and Backwoodsman's abusive behaviour got the last thread closed -
don't do the same to this one - unless this is your intention"

My abusive behaviour? Seriously? You and the others should take a long hard look at yourself and what you are doing to this forum with your constant bickering and sniping at each other. Your insults aren't even witty or amusing, just mean and mealy mouthed.

I'm all for robust debate, but these puerile running arguments and insulting posts are well beyond the pale. Every thread is wrecked by you and your mates and any below the line debate is stifled by your collective belligerence.

This is so wearying.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 02:57 PM

"What the fuck are you doing Stu
Your's and Backwoodsman's abusive behaviour got the last thread closed -
don't do the same to this one - unless this is your intention""
I deliberately PM's that dso it wouldn't fuck up this thread
That now seems to be your intention - I suppose a passing mod will acquiesce to your demands and punish us all for your now unacceptable behaviour rather than ask you to desist
Can't do much about that, I suppose
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 03:22 PM

Right back to the title. In the last 15 months the pound has fallen against the euro from 1.31 to 1.13. A drop of over 13%. It has also fallen against the Dollar. These have caused a rise in almost everything we purchase, not only in International trade but on the shelves at the supermarket and at the petrol pumps. These rises affect everyone irrespective of their income. People with surplus can carry these rises, people on the breadline struggle ....... or get into debt.

Fair, reasonable .......... I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 04:39 PM

Don't bloody do that, Stu, no matter how cross you get. If you find a private message offensive you go to the mods, not go public.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 04:44 PM

That's exactly right, Raggytash. And the gvt and the private sector can't afford to pay the wages that anywhere near keep up with the ensuing inflation. We talk about an impending brexit disaster. It's not impending any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 05:08 PM

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 05:24 PM

Twat.😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 05:29 PM

"If you find a private message offensive you go to the mods, not go public."

I take your point Steve and perhaps you're right, I acted impetuously as I was so utterly pissed of with the Jim/Ake show spilling onto this thread for no reason at all. But... I wouldn't go to the mods as I see little reason why they should be bothered with this playground crap; they have a difficult enough job as it is.

I don't mind the combative and sometimes harsh discussions; it's the way we debate in the UK. What I object to is the constant dragging of unconnected information into these threads as a way of cheap point scoring during the pursuit of vendettas. It's rude, ignorant and not a little sad. That bystanders have to egg the protagonists on is equally depressing...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 06:02 PM

Forget it, everyone is fallible.

I was thinking that if Ake's initial post was 100% correct you all would be pleased as punch and rolling in clover. do you think?
But alas reality wakes and the dream fades.

Over here Twitler may screw up trade with China so bad that Walmart might start to disappear and prices will soar erasing any tax cut.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 06:06 PM

I do get all that, Stu, and have been incensed enough to contemplate doing it myself. It's a right bugger, but if, in extremis, you feel the need to go public with a PM, it's best to invite the silly bastard who sent it you to retract, then give 'em an ultimatum...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 06:21 PM

Don't understand your remark concerning my IP Don? I stand by that post in its entirety.
The point of Brexit is to work our way out to all the economic problems which afflict us...to do so, we need the contribution of all our people and the markets which WE chose.....the parasitical reliance on immigrant labour is unsustainable in the long term. Alongside this new marketing strategy, we also need to urgently reform the education system and instigate proper training schemes for our people.
Party politics will never provide this....too many ideological stoppers. We need to work together, business and labour, to make a success of this venture.

If ideological obstructions cause us to fail our grandchildren will regard us as stupid and selfish.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:02 PM

Expelling parasitical alien labor has brought the US to a point that 1/3 to half our produce goes unpicked and rots in the field or trees.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 08:15 PM

"This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,"
A speech the Bard put in the mouth of one of England's most difunctional kings who screwed his way through every woman he could get his hands on, was totally incapable of controlling the plots against him mainly instigated by his two sons, Richard and John who were scrabbling for control of the throne, and who was forced to imprison his wife, Eleanor (known as 'the democratic drawbridge who went down for everybody') in a tower for 360 days of the year to stop her servicing all the male members of his court and poisoning his lovers
Not the greatest of recommendations Iains, but probably a pretty fair assessment of Britain after Brexit.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 10:46 PM

Twat.😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Ed.
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 11:52 PM

A speech the Bard put in the mouth of one of England's most difunctional kings

You appear to be a little confused, Jim. Iains posted a quote from Richard II, but you're burbling, frothy mouthed, about Henry II...

May I also respectfully suggest that you look a little further than 'The Lion in Winter' for historical insights?

By the way, the word you were looking for is dysfunctional.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 01:45 AM

Don, it is not the immigrant labour which is "parasitical", but the system which uses it, above its obligations to the young people of the UK.
The EU makes the rules we implement them........not for long!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:05 AM

"May I also respectfully suggest that you look a little further than 'The Lion in Winter' for historical insights?"
Sorry - confusing my Kigs and The lion in Winter didn't really come into it - it came from my researching the ballads, Queen Eleanor's Confession and Fair Rosamond and mixing the names up.
Thanks fotr the heads up
"Twat." (also "mindless stwats on a recently closed thread)
Smiley aside Iains, it's gratuitous insultinglike this, schoolyard bullying and hit-'n-run postings that have dragged some of these discussion to gutter level and have got threads closed
I suggest that steering clear of such childish behaviour and replacing it with adult argument might just raise it back to the level it used to be
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:17 AM

Jim...I didn't get the last thread closed, it was you bunch of OCD Spunktrumpets who did that, with your non-stop bickering, your personal vendettas, your stupid, stupid, STUPID childish behaviour. Exactly as you've got dozens of other threads closed by your boorish behaviour. By your constant, obsessive fighting, you mob abuse right of the few remaining decent, normal people who have the fortitude to stick around, to enjoy intelligent, meaningful discussion. You're a disgrace.

If you crowd insist on behaving like childish twats, spitting dummies out, and throwing your teddies out of the pram on every thread you infect, don't complain when sane, normal, adults call you out on it. You are not clever people, you may think you are, but in the eyes of the many who have given up on this forum, you are morons.

Now...carry on, idiots, you'll have this thread closed soon.

Ten...
Nine...
Eight...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:29 AM

Jimmie I copied your little packmate shaw's insult to me just to watch your entirely predictable behaviour. You and your wannabe bullies apparently think you have carte blanche to post whatever you like, yet act like stuck pigs when the tables are turned. Did you censure the idiot shaw for his gratuitous insult above? One law for the pack and one for the rest of us is it?
When you cannot reciprocate in the discussion with well constructed argument you resort to insult-presumably to make all those people embarrassing you go away, by having the thread closed. What a silly little man you are!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:52 AM

"Jim...I didn't get the last thread closed,"
One of the last postings on the thread was your gratuitous "mindless twats" - a sort of slightly more intelligent version of "OCD Spunktrumpets"
I get tired of the slagging off by people like you, Ake and Teribus who reduce arguments to this level
Some of these subjects are complex and can't be dealt with superficially
I argue about the things I care about and I take these arguments to the lengths I believe they merit
I occasionally overstate my case, but I don't think I am gratuitously insulting - I have certainly never sunk to the level of your last depressing posting.
This forum is regularly being used as a platform for racism and hatred by a few people
There used to be a couple of Muslims at one time - there aren't now, I would hate to be gay and receive the waves of hatred and contempt of Akes diatribes - I know of intelligent Irish friends who washed their hands of this forum after some of the racism that was put up lst year.
I enjoy being here and I benefit greatly from much of the information that is put up - the generosity of some members still knocks me over
You talk of "many" the way you did of "people are fed up with you mindless twats" as if you had been elected spokesman
You like me and everybody else, speak only for ourselves
I argue passionately sometimes, and when I do, I put up as much information as I think necessary (it has often been complained that I put too much up)
That, as far as I am concerned, is what debating is about.
I wanted to end my comment on Ake's complaint about being slandered and move on - you and Stu have blown it up into a major altercation and your last posting has dragged it right down to schoolyard level
If this thread is closed, it is that which will have turned the key
Grow up and start behaving like adults
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:54 AM

"Jimmie I copied your little packmate shaw's"
There - now you've gone and woken up the child
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 04:11 AM

You ain't seen nuttin yet!
How many Grant-funded University Projects are going to have to be squandered, or bolstered from the windfalls Brexit?
How many air traffic regulation will have to be enshrined in new laws? Fancy a flight anyone?

Brexit is a change, and any change costs money. How many years do we expect it will take till pay-back?
Anyone who can put a figure on that is lying, knowingly. By the time their notional pay-back is past (still un-audited) the goal posts will have been moved - BRIC by BRIC (to mix meta-fours).
Brexit is a belief system, like all other religions. You worship or you doubt, (except in this case have it thrust down yer throat).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 04:15 AM

I suspect if the EU and Spain get too heavy handed with Catalonia and continue to thwart their thirst for Independence then post brexit will escalate to post EU. spanish legal block on Independence referendum for Catalonia

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 04:48 AM

From: Mr Red - PM
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 04:11 AM

Brexit is a change, and any change costs money. How many years do we expect it will take till pay-back?
Anyone who can put a figure on that is lying, knowingly. By the time their notional pay-back is past (still un-audited) the goal posts will have been moved - BRIC by BRIC (to mix meta-fours).

As Mr Juncker has recently made perfectly clear. Brexit will bring about change, but remaining in the EU would also have brought about change, with ever closer union, creation of a EU army, forcing all members into a single financial authority (virtually impossible without first forcing the remaining members into adopting the Euro).
At least with Brexit we get to choose which changes we make.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:19 AM

Don't forget the rest of the speech, Iains. It finishes:
That England, that was wont to conquer others,
Hath made a shameful conquest of itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:19 AM

Don't forget the rest of the speech, Iains. It finishes:
That England, that was wont to conquer others,
Hath made a shameful conquest of itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:52 AM

I read you the first time!

How you equate demanding Independence with "Hath made a shameful conquest of itself" rather escapes me I am afraid. Demonstrates the dangers of quoting poetry I suppose.
Try this one instead!

This land of such dear souls, this dear dear land,
Dear for her reputation through the world,
Is now leased out, I die pronouncing it,
Like to a tenement or pelting farm:
England, bound in with the triumphant sea
Whose rocky shore beats back the envious siege
Of watery Neptune, is now bound in with shame,
With inky blots and rotten parchment bonds:

Far more accurate I would say.

Who wants to play next?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:59 AM

Both poems/quotes seem to picture 'England' as surrounded by sea(s).

Maybe they meant 'Britain'!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 08:06 AM

D McG. Adolf Hitler.
       "Only constant repetition will finally succeed in imprinting an                     
       idea on the memory of the crowd"

Nice try but I am not convinced!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 09:00 AM

Maybe they meant 'Britain'! Don't think so, After Edward 1 went motoring through Wales the subsequent Statute of Rhuddlan lost the Principality its independence and it became effectively an annexed territory of the English crown around 1283AD. England had several invasions of Scotland prior to the treaty of Berwick around 1357, where independence was recognised up until the act of union.(I think) Richard 2 reigned 1367-1400. The bard was quite a bit later on the scene.
So a bit of poetic licence as far as the landlocked Scottish border was concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 09:48 AM

I didn't mean that much by it, but I have a bit of thing about those occasions when an author or songwriter says something and people understand the opposite. The point of John of Gaunt's speech is "you may think it is like that, but it is actually like this". You get the same thing in West Side Story where a lot of people think the song is about how wonderful America is, but is actually about the gap between the American dream and what the immigrants experience.

No need to dwell on the point any further.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 10:57 AM

DMcG I am afraid I had to learn big chunks of Richard 2 for English Lit. O Level. I like to throw bits out now and again. It all gets a little too serious here. Levity has it's place.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 12:54 PM

It all gets a little too serious here. Levity has it's place

Yep. Like comparing a double-tap of the enter key to Hitler, for instance?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:04 PM

DMcG. I was looking for a quote on repetition. The one I chose probably was not the most apt. I apologize.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:49 PM

Jim and I are equally massive "packmates." So much so that we never communicate with each other except for what you see in the threads. Who's the twat now, Inanes? 😂

John, the final act in that thread you claim you didn't get closed was your most incredibly sweary and offensive name-calling post of all time. You really don't need to do that in order to make whatever points you want to make. You're a lovely man whose opinions I value, though you don't really do irony, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:52 PM

And your 0317 post is cowardly. No names, no pack drill, eh?

Moving on...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 08:47 PM

You get the same thing in West Side Story where a lot of people think the song is about how wonderful America is, but is actually about the gap between the American dream and what the immigrants experience.

No need to dwell on the point any further.

Except to say you need to pay more attention. The song is actually about both. That's what makes it a great song.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 01:42 AM

On the West Side Story song "America!": Certainly both the dream and the gap are presented. But I would say essence is that the women present the dream and the men say "Yes that's the dream. But a dream is all it is for people like us". That's why, in my opinion, the song is about the gap. But I encourage everyone to form their own view.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:17 AM

Who's the twat now, Inanes? 😂
It is no surprise contributors below the line are diminishing with the above learned contributions from our resident boasting "well educated scientist" Shaw you are a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 08:36 AM

When did I ever say I was well-educated?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 08:51 AM

Well-educated? Educated to a greater degree than those you are denigrating from a start point of complete ignorance? Educated better than those you call Philistines? Often Shaw unfortunately your input more often than not displays the truth of the matter.

Yet to hear any of the "remainers" views on the storm that is just about to hammer the EU over an unofficial referendum about to be held in Spain over Catalonia seceding from Spain. The EU is on a hiding to nothing on the issue as it cannot win no matter what happens. Political observers deem this issue to be a greater threat to the EU than Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

"scientist"......lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

Do you see parallels between Catalonia in Spain and Scotland in the UK. I know that Scotland and the UK united through political means 300 odd years ago. What is the history between Catalonia and Spain?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:30 AM

Do you see parallels between Catalonia in Spain and Scotland in the UK.
No, not really. Scotland wanted a vote, and the UK permitted one to take place. (Not equivalent at all)
If the UK had decided that a vote could not be binding, and would be ignored, I still don't believe you would have seen the heavy handed tactics that the Spanish have used.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:32 AM

The Spanish/Catalan problem may be worthy of its own thread, if anyone is interested enough.

I don't really think it relates to "Post Brexit life in the UK"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 09:57 AM

Nigel Parsons. It is related only to the extent that there is a drive towards greater unification or federalism in Europe while at the same time Brexit and the Catalonians seek greater autonomy. The two concepts cannot be reconciled. I can recommend some Farage clips on youtube
Farage
Like the man or hate him, he makes very articulate arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:10 AM

Iains:
As I said I don't really think it relates to "Post Brexit life in the UK"
It may relate to "post Brexit life in the EU" but that wasn't the title of this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:11 AM

I do not suppose for one second the "remainers" on this forum would open, or even discuss, anything to do with what is currently happening in Spain Nigel. The main reason for this being that it is their fiction that all is well in the EU and in the Eurozone. Examination of current events in Spain and in Brussels prove that quite a number of supposedly inalienable rights can be conveniently kicked into the long grass whenever it suits as far as the EU is concerned. In short, the EU and all it's weaknesses are demonstrated for all to see.

The other factor that has come out of the recent Labour Party Conference is that should Corbyn and Labour win the next election the consensus is that there will be a run on the £ Sterling that will see it devalued as much as 50% if McDonnell's unpriced idiotic schemes are put in place. I wonder how loud the cheers of approval will be from Connemara and County Clare?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM

Catalonian autonomy and Scottish independence are perfectly compatable with a strong federal Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:36 AM

David Carter. I hope you are correct, but I find it hard to believe.

For STEVIE BLUNDER "When did I ever say I was well-educated?"

Allow me to refresh your memory my pompous little friend:
RE: BS: Why build cities in path of hurricanes?
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 06:22 AM

As a matter of fact, I'm an inveterate user of dictionaries. I'll let my use of English in my posts to this forum stand testament to that. It's just that, as a WELL-EDUCATED SCIENTIST, I tend to question everything and take nothing at face value, and I don't care much for authority.
Tell me did you leave Catholicism because God decided he could not be a**sed to argue with you any longer?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:38 AM

From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM
Catalonian autonomy and Scottish independence are perfectly compatable with a strong federal Europe.

If that is so, why are the EU so concerned about the possibility of UK autonomy & independence?

Or do you think that Scotland & the Catalan people would be 'autonomous & independent' within the EU? (and be happy to be so)
The Scots referendum debates made clear that that was probably the least likely outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:08 AM

The EU are not concerned, just rather sad at what the UK is doing to itself. Of course Scotland and Catalonia could be autonomous and independent within the EU. And the Scots referendum debate made no such thing clear, the Scottish people were fed the lie that their continued EU membership depended upon remaining in the UK. And a fat lot of good remaining in the UK has done them in that respect.

Scotland is best off out of the UK and in the EU. If it was I would move there given the chance. Catalonia, I am not so sure, I don't know as much about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:13 AM

"For STEVIE BLUNDER"
Why do you persst on lowering the tone of this interesting discussion?
"Allow me to refresh your memory my pompous little friend:"
And why do you constantly feel the need to talk down to people ?
We've already got one of them and he tends to do it with far more panache than you
"I wonder how loud the cheers of approval will be from Connemara and County Clare?"
See what I mean - it's like being in a ******* Kindergarten between the pair of you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:14 AM

From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:08 AM
The EU are not concerned, just rather sad at what the UK is doing to itself.
Of course the EU are concerned, They are about to lose one of their biggest cash contributors. Why do you think they are trying to get such a big payment out of us?
Of course Scotland and Catalonia could be autonomous and independent within the EU. And the Scots referendum debate made no such thing clear, the Scottish people were fed the lie that their continued EU membership depended upon remaining in the UK. And a fat lot of good remaining in the UK has done them in that respect.
The EU made it clear that there would be no automatic entry for Scotland if they left the UK.
If they attempted to re-join they would have to introduce the Euro (a requirement for any new joiners to the EU) they would also have to be accepted by the remaining 27 members (unlikely to be accepted by Spain as it would set a bad example for Catelonia).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:17 AM

To maybe lghten the tone - from another thread
Wonderful cartoon in this morning's Times showing Boris Johnson, arse to the fore, in Bunny-girl costume on a front page of Playboy
The caption reads, "Entertainment for Tories, How I screwed Britain - my biggest boobs, BreXit rated)"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:22 AM

Teribus, I think you misunderstand the situation in Spain. I havn't lived in Spain for the best part of 25 years, and then it was in Canarias, not Catalonia. But I do understand that the autonomy of autonomous regions is very precious to people, and there are deep historical reasons for this, related to divides which have not fully healed since the civil war. But the way I see it the Catalan people don't have any problem with the EU, their problem is with Rajoy. And Rajoy is from the PP, and the PP are, however sanitised, the heirs to Franco, who was really hated in Catalonia (not so much in Canarias I hasten to add). Catalan people, like pretty much all Spanish people, are happy with the EU, and extremely happy with the Euro since their savings are not being incessantly devalued as the were when they were in pesetas. Plus Catalonia (and Canarias) have benefited enormously from ERDF.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:26 AM

Nigel, Spain made it clear that they would not block Scottish membership of the EU. And they would not necessarily have to adopt the Euro, though in my view that would be the sensible thing to do.

What is it with you lot and the Euro. The Euro is doing fine, it is a strong and stable currency, to coin a phrase. I am trying to move as many of my savings into Euros as possible, except for those I am moving into Australian dollars. Unfortunately its not so easy to move income streams.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:51 AM

Ok, I admit it. I'm well-educated, at least well enough to know that "well-educated" should have its hyphen.

There is no "consensus" that there will be a run on the pound should Labour win. Stop making things up. John McDonnell stated that the party was planning for that possible eventuality. A very responsible attitude. Pity your party didn't plan for a run on the pound in 1992, eh, Teribus? I would also suggest that scaremongering by the right about a run on the pound will backfire very badly. William Hague tried a similar trick in 2001 by claiming that Labour would have us joining the euro, "last chance to save the pound." He got bloody trounced. But you Tories never learn. Please keep it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:59 AM

"Well-educated? Educated to a greater degree than those you are denigrating from a start point of complete ignorance? Educated better than those you call Philistines? Often Shaw unfortunately your input more often than not displays the truth of the matter."

Is there a translator in the house? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 12:14 PM

Ehmmmm not quite right on Spain and EU membership for Scotland David. At the time of the referendum their Foreign Minister stated that he would not comment on it one way or the other.

There are I think six countries in the EU who would block an independent Scotland's entry due to the influence that would have on minorities within their own borders (Even in the EU Member States best national interests will "trump" the ideology of the EU Commission)

In Spain IF Catalonia goes ahead and secedes that will be 25% of the wealth of Spain gone, it is one of the most industrialised parts of Spain. They will find themselves out of the EU without a currency of their own - exactly the same as an independent Scotland would find themselves. From that as a start point neither would be a member of the EU for a further 10 to 15 years. |IF Catalonia goes for independence from Spain, a much poorer Spain will face calls from two other regions The Basque region and Galicia for either greater autonomy or independence. The EU will have to decide which to back, they will more like as not have to back Spain, as they appear to be doing now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 12:29 PM

Purely to answer your question Shaw:

1: "Educated to a greater degree than those you are denigrating from a start point of complete ignorance?

This has been a previous claim of yours when you have called into question the level to which others have been educated. The contention of yours is made however from the basis of complete ignorance related to the people you were comparing yourself to.

2: "Educated better than those you call Philistines?

Philistines as far as you are concerned are those who have learned from working their way up and from life's experiences - none of which you appear to rate too highly. Unfortunately for your side of the argument some of the most successful men in the world came from such beginnings.

3: "Often Shaw unfortunately your input more often than not displays the truth of the matter."

Now what "well-educated" man would refer to flocks of grouse? Especially one who taught Biology ("the study of life and living organisms, including their physical and chemical structure, function, development and evolution").

Not my fault Shaw that such a "well-educated" man as yourself cannot understand plain English.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 12:40 PM

I do not think most europeans realise just how much of a discrete entity Galicia is. It is very proud of it's celtic past and the Galego language, which is widely spoken. It has had several independance organisations in existance in the recent past and should Catalonia free it's shackles I would anticipate Galicia following right behind. Even though Franco came from the area he did Galicians no favours and tried to destroy the language.
The basques have been agitating for more independence for decades.
Some interesting facts on the languages below and possible reasons for the friction with the Castilian areas of Spain.

http://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2201&context=etd

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 01:56 PM

Indeed, Iains, and good luck to them. They have a distinct folk music tradition, obviously there is Luar na Lubre, but more besides. So good luck to an independent Galicia within the EU.

Rajoy, like May, is desperate to keep a failing state together.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:00 PM

David Carter. I lived a while in Galicia and they have many other sensible pastimes besides-like tending vineyards, making wine and distilling the residue to make aguardiente. My cellar had a monstrous grape press and 500lt still. It gives a whole new breadth of meaning to rocket fuel!
But back to the subject in question. How do you reconcile regional autonomy with creeping federalisation. The entire history of the EU is that of a furtive grab of power by a largely un-elected bureaucracy.
It started with the Iron and Steel community then steadily morphed
into the unaccountable monolith that exists today. The entire history of the EU is that of usurping everything that represents the nation state. Centralisation and control by diktat at an ever accelerating rate.
How can you possibly have a concept of autonomy that has any sort of sensible meaning when it is existing within an entity that sucks in power with greater efficiency that a black hole?
To my mind the two concepts are totally incompatible. Additionally the power elite lie through their teeth when it suits. There is now a thrust towards the formation of a European defence Force, with centrally controlled purchasing and specifications. Economically it probably makes some sense but other would find the idea rests uncomfortably. Especially as the total denial of such an "outrageous concept" was not in the so far distant past.
What other cunning little ruses are up their sleeves that they willno doubt lie about? Theft of bank accounts was trialed ever so successfully no too long ago-it can now occur anywhere in Europe!
You may trust them- I do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:00 PM

Nice one, Teribus. I have plenty more jobs for you up my sleeve. You're a lovely jumper-through-hoops. If you want to have a bash at anyone else's "plain English," by the way, entertain yourself for a minute or two with Iain's last post. After all, you do it with Jim often enough. Come on now, be fair! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:01 PM

By which I meant the 12.40 pm one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:05 PM

So Shaw why do you not correct jimmies unique massacre of the english language? After all for a well educated "polymath" such as yourself it would be merely the matter of a moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:22 PM

The trouble is Iains, that you are wedded to the concept of the nation state. Much more sensible is a system of autonomous regions which manage their own affairs. But some things, for instance defence, and trade relations, need to be negotiated at a higher level, which is where the EU comes in. The EU does not grab power, it is entities like the UK and Spain which do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:33 PM

David Carter. I think many people are wedded to the idea of nation state and moving away from it will take time. If the EU was more democratic in it's institutions and operated with total transparency people might accept integration more readily. I suspect the EU needs to change, not the people. Trying to merge disparate economies into one was a dream too far as I am sure the Euro will surely demonstrate in the not too distant future.
The history of Empire does not bode well for the extent of the EU lifespan, even the American Empire(hegemony) is fast racing into the ropes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 04:27 PM

From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:22 PM

The trouble is Iains, that you are wedded to the concept of the nation state. Much more sensible is a system of autonomous regions which manage their own affairs. But some things, for instance defence, and trade relations, need to be negotiated at a higher level, which is where the EU comes in. The EU does not grab power, it is entities like the UK and Spain which do that.

The UK does not 'grab power' in relation to defence. It aims to retain what power it has. The UK is happy to allow a supranational defence power. But is also happy to continue with that being NATO, rather than pass it to a relatively new entity, the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 05:26 PM

If the EU was "more democratic?" So what was "democratic" about a shitty coalition that excluded the second-largest party, a referendum that was called by a government frightened to death of both UKIP and its own right wing, nothing to do with the interests of this country, a referendum campaign predicated on telling the people of this country lie after lie and whipping up xenophobia, a party failing to win a majority doing a shitty, grubby deal with a bunch of sectarian bigots in order to cling to power, that same minority government trying to pass a bill that would mean parliament being bypassed on thousands of laws at their whim? "If the EU was more democratic" my arse. We have absolutely nothing to teach the EU about democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 05:37 PM

How about.... the side with most votes in a referendum is the winner?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 05:52 PM

"the side with most votes in a referendum is the winner?"
Like the Nazis got the most votes in Germany, do you mean?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 06:16 PM

ELECTION VICTORY

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 06:54 PM

So what has "the side with most [sic] votes" got to do with any point I made? The answer is precisely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:26 AM

Calm down Shaw you are getting hysterical. Is that because it took you two days to conjure up a response in the earthquake thread? The strain a bit too much for you? For a well educated scientist I fail to see why you cannot grasp the fact that for any election in the uk the side with the most votes in any area. And the tories are still in power!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:00 AM

"Calm down Shaw you are getting hysterical.
Are you so unsure of your position that you need to fill most of your postings with abuse Iains?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:21 AM

NATO, there is something completely undemocratic. Gets us embroiled in faraway wars against countries we have no problem with in defence of the supposed interests of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:25 AM

Err... Iains, I think that the earthquake thread showed Steve Shaw to have a lot better grasp of science than you, and a lot better judgement of when to believe things in the media written by fringe scientists.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 06:42 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 05:26 PM
"If the EU was more democratic" my arse. We have absolutely nothing to teach the EU about democracy.
Except, possibly, that when 'the people' are allowed a vote then the result should be accepted even when it's not the one the EU wanted.
It seems the EU might have realised that that ploy wouldn't work with the UK, but they've used it with other countries, and would probably be prepared to use it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 07:11 AM

You're talking past me, Nigel. Read my post again.

Don't worry about Iains, Jim. He simply doesn't matter. By the way, Iains, if you really want to know, I'd been in Madeira for a week and my opportunities for posting to Mudcat were somewhat reduced at times. I'm sure Mrs Steve would really have appreciated it had I said "Hang about, dear, while I just send off a half-hour reply to this weirdly-swears mentalist who has a plural first name. You'll have to wait a bit longer for your stroll down the prom and your coffee and traditional Portuguese custard tart..."

The Portuguese custard tarts are to die for, by the way. I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able to stop mentioning them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 07:33 AM

Weirdly-sweary. The spellcheck "corrected" it twice!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM

That was my point exactly Nigel. Steve says the EU has nothing to learn from the UK about democracy, yet the EU must be the most undemocratic institution in the Western hemisphere.

When they get a result they don't approve of in a referendum or election they force(blackmail) the people into voting again and again until they get the result they want.
If it hadn't been for Mr Farage and his Party we would be well on the way to becoming just another star in the United states of Europe flag.
Before long someone a lot less wholesome than Mr Farage would rise in Germany and there would be absolutely nothing we could do about it.

Thank Christ for UKIP   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 02:28 PM

Better a star on the EU flag than an unloved stain on the floor of the community of nations. UKIP, with plenty of help from the tories, have stuffed this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:01 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 07:11 AM
You're talking past me, Nigel. Read my post again.
Okay, I've re-read your post. It still says "If the EU was more democratic" my arse. We have absolutely nothing to teach the EU about democracy.
I stick with my response that we can teach the EU a lot about democracy: "that when 'the people' are allowed a vote then the result should be accepted even when it's not the one the EU wanted.
It seems the EU might have realised that that ploy wouldn't work with the UK, but they've used it with other countries, and would probably be prepared to use it again." (I'm not quite sure where your arse comes into the discussion, but if you must mention it that's your prerogative.)

Perhaps you should re-read your own post. Aren't teachers supposed to encourage their pupils to read what they are responding to? Or are you past that stage?

I could go on about your post: "what was "democratic" about a shitty coalition that excluded the second-largest party, a referendum that was called by a government frightened to death of both UKIP and its own right wing, nothing to do with the interests of this country,"
The referendum was not called by the coalition. It was called by parliament. The coalition only allowed the referendum to take place once it had been voted on in parliament. The referendum vote had massive support from the labour party (your 'second-largest party'). The vote to hold a referendum was passed (ayes) 544 (noes) 53. (so with 650 MPs, if the only ones to abstain were from Labour, and all the votes against were from Labour that's only (650-544) 106 Labour MPs who didn't vote for a referendum (either by voting against, or by abstention). That means (and I'll spell it out for you) that at least 150 Labour MPs voted to hold a referendum on the possibility of the UK leaving the EU.

Try responding to facts, with facts, rather than your somewhat one-sided suppositions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:16 PM

Sorry, I'll correct that fact. At the time of the vote to hold a referendum Labour had only 232 MPs. so at least 126 labour MPs voted to hold a referendum.
That's still more Labour MPs than the total that either voted against, or abstained.
So the majority of Labour MPs voted in favour of holding a referendum on the UK leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:25 PM

Don't be so disingenuous, Nigel. Any party that voted against a referendum would have been instant toast and you know it. You don't do realpolitik, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:35 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:25 PM
Don't be so disingenuous, Nigel. Any party that voted against a referendum would have been instant toast and you know it. You don't do realpolitik, do you?

Thanks for the confirmation. So if any party voting against holding a referendum "would be toast" you obviously accept that it wasn't just a ploy by the coalition, but a response to a perceived requirement of the electorate.

I may not do "realpolitik". I prefer to do realism.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:45 PM

Of course it was a ploy. The great British public had been groomed by UKIP and Cameron for years to fully expect a referendum. Cameron knew that he wouldn't face parliamentary opposition. The referendum was definitely going to happen by that stage and the Labour Party opposing it at that point would (a) have meant certain defeat and (b) sidelined them forever. Leave your principles at home, Nigel, and accept realpolitik when it's staring you in the face. I bloody hate it but that's the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:57 PM

And, of course, by your reasoning, any of the 53 who put their heads above the parapet and voted against a referendum would also be 'toast'.
Can you confirm whether any of them have been re-elected? Or do I need to check that for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:59 PM

Just checked. 31 of the 53 remain as MPs. All in Scotland, where they may have been voting in line with their constituents wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:11 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:45 PM

Of course it was a ploy. The great British public had been groomed by UKIP and Cameron for years to fully expect a referendum. Cameron knew that he wouldn't face parliamentary opposition. The referendum was definitely going to happen by that stage and the Labour Party opposing it at that point would (a) have meant certain defeat and (b) sidelined them forever. Leave your principles at home, Nigel, and accept realpolitik when it's staring you in the face. I bloody hate it but that's the way it is.

Unfortunately your worldview is highly biased. "UKIP & Cameron". Do you not recall the Labour party promising a referendum before taking us further into Europe? (then reneging)

Here

Hannan says Blair made promises of a referendum in both 2004 and 2005.

Certainly, on 20 April 2004 that was the case, as the PM told Parliament it should debate the European constitutional question "in detail and decide upon it" and "then let the people have the final say".

He ended the Commons statement with the war-cry: "Let the issue be put. Let the battle be joined."

No doubt in that pledge; although Blair's advisors would today point out that he is specifically referring to a debate with constitutional significance, not a watered down treaty.

Fast-forward to the Labour election manifesto in 2005 and the language is as forthright.

Blair promises: "We will put it [the constitution] to the British people in a referendum and campaign wholeheartedly for a Yes vote."
All of which is in contrast to Blair's response to the Financial Times in April this year after it asked if there would be a referendum.

He replied: "No. If it's not a constitutional treaty, so that it alters the basic relationship between Europe and the member states, then there isn't the same case for a referendum."

Now admittedly he was talking about a referendum on whether to ratify a treaty taking us further into the EU, but it comes down to much the same thing. If we weren't prepared to go further in, the alternative would have been to leave. Either we were part of Europe, going for "ever closer union" or we were not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:13 PM

Labour's promises on an EU referendum
"We will put it — the EU Constitution — to the British people in a referendum and campaign whole-heartedly for a 'Yes' vote." — Labour Party manifesto, May 2005
"The manifesto is what we put to the public. We've got to honour that manifesto." — Gordon Brown, BBC 1 Politics Show, June 24, 2007

So stop trying to put it all down as a plot by UKIP and the Conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:15 PM

The only difference between Conservative promises for a referendum, and Labour promises for a referendum is that the Conservatives kept theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:30 PM

Game and set to Nigel I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:51 PM

Yes, well, Nigel, the key point is that New Labour "reneged." It's a bloody good bet that Cameron would have "reneged" had he even remotely suspected that the vote would be to leave. But the hubris-laden twat really did think he couldn't lose. Must be a Tory disease as it's exactly what May did earlier this year. Nigel, for the third time I invite you to contemplate the realpolitik of the last three or four years and stop pretending that any politician, ever, acted on principle or on any promise he made that suddenly seemed to be a bad idea after all. Get real, in other words.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 04:58 PM

Anyway, I'm in poetic mode this evening. Here's a verse from "Mandalay" by Kipling that Boris Johnson's aide only just managed to stop Boris from reciting in an event in Burma:

'Er petticoat was yaller an' 'er little cap was green,
An' 'er name was Supi-yaw-lat - jes' the same as Theebaw's Queen,
An' I seed her first a-smokin' of a whackin' white cheroot,
An' a-wastin' Christian kisses on an 'eathen idol's foot:
Bloomin' idol made o' mud
Wot they called the Great Gawd Budd
Plucky lot she cared for idols when I kissed 'er where she stud!
On the road to Mandalay...

😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 05:02 PM

And thank you to the prescient John Donne for this, a corrective to all those stupid brexiteer xenophobes' warblings:


'No Man is an Island'

No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

It tolls for the UK, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 05:06 PM

So, under 'realpolitik' (a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.) Labour breaking their promises is a 'good' thing. Cameron keeping his is a 'bad' thing.    Strange world-view that one.

I suppose it all boils down to whether you think the UK is better off in our out of the EU. You then adjust your thinking accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 06:48 PM

"So, under 'realpolitik' (a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.) Labour breaking their promises is a 'good' thing. Cameron keeping his is a 'bad' thing.    Strange world-view that one."

Not at all, Nigel. The point is that it's the real world view. Labour "breaking" its promise was a very good thing, which, unfortunately, was washed away by Cameron "keeping" his. And, whilst we're on realpolitik, and before you get too carried away by call-me-Dave's high-minded "principles," let's just remember why Cameron called his referendum. Nothing to do with the nation's interests (which was to stay in the EU, which he was certain would happen) and everything to do with trying to calm his belligerent backbenchers and staving off Ukip. And if you really want to gnaw away at politicians' promises, you may care to start with Theresa's "no election" promise. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 07:06 PM

'realpolitik' (a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.)

No leader of ANY mainstream political party in the UK, OR in Europe though for one nano-second that the electorate of the UK would vote LEAVE - that was the reality when any of them talked about a referendum.

The Conservatives honoured their pledge to the electorate of the UK and held a referendum fully expected the "Remain" side to win - IT DIDN'T - "realpolitik" is for the politicians in the UK to recognise the declared will of the electorate of the UK and deliver what they voted for as rapidly as possible by securing the best deal possible that works to the best advantage of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 09:13 PM

Valiantly hopeful, Teribus. Realpolitik may overtake you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:13 AM

The "Real" situation that politicians have to deal with in both Europe and in the UK is that we voted to LEAVE.

The "Real" situation that politicians in the UK have to deal with is that LEAVE means precisely that and that is what the electorate of the UK expect them to deliver.

The fact that you have not accepted the reality of the situation does not surprise me in the slightest. The Conservative Party Conference is about to open in Manchester this week - those attending it are greeted with a banner hanging from a bridge with the message "HANG THE TORIES" with two effigies in suits suspended from the bridge - that is the tolerance of todays supposed socialists.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 03:36 AM

Meanwhile polling stations are opening in Catalonia and French Bretons are rallying for self determination and to show solidarity with Catalonia. No doubt the Basques are thinking along similar lines.
I would be surprised if the Greeks and haircut Cypriots are over enamoured with the united states of europe. Put Brexit into the mix and trying to pretend it is all happy families is simply not going to wash.

    In the caldron boil and bake;
    Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
    Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
    Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
    Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,—
    For a charm of powerful trouble,
    Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 04:37 AM

"The Conservative Party Conference is about to open in Manchester this week"

I agree that it's a pisser that nasty toff tories and their corporate mates are littering up the streets of magnificent Manchester. I really wish they'd fuck off elsewhere, they drag the atmosphere down.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 04:43 AM

Stu - 01 Oct 17 - 04:37 AM

The voice of tolerant, liberal, socialism.

Can't wait to hear any possible defence of this stated view of Stu's by any of the "usual suspects".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 05:13 AM

Iains, Catalans and Bretons are rallying because they don't want to be part of Spain and France respectively, not because they don't want to be part of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM

Bretons?? I had no idea that they were even considering seeking independence or separation from metropolitan France.

Now as far as Spain goes we do have separatist movements in Galicia, the Basque region and in Catalonia where apparently the Spanish Guarda Civil, specially bussed in from elsewhere in Spain are firing rubber bullets at civilians who are trying to vote.

The problem the EU has David is that should any of these regions gain independence then they automatically find themselves OUT of the EU. The EU requires large tax paying entities such as Spain, France, Italy to bankroll the EU's schemes so that is who the EU supports in these instances. In the recent Scottish Independence referendum the EU position was the UK is a member state if you opt to leave the UK then you are no longer a member of the EU - same applies to the Spanish regions - oh and the Bretons if ever they should decide to part brass-rags and become independent from France.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 06:08 AM

Sorry Teribus, my mistake in believing Iains.

Catalonia in particular is a net contributor to Spain. So if it were independent, it would be welcomed by the EU for this reason alone, in addition to the fact that it has a vibrant culture which the EU will always support.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 06:13 AM

The link is a little old but does illustrate not everyone aspires to the united states of europe.
https://www.rt.com/news/159236-separatism-increase-europe-elections/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 06:34 AM

Dunno about hang the Tories. What is very likely is that May will shortly be hung out to dry by the Tory backwoodsmen. Stu's expressing a view that he wishes the Tories would go elsewhere ("fuck off" is not part of my personal Mudcat lexicon as I have other words I can use) does not go against liberal, tolerant socialism. He's expressing a wish that's echoed all over a city that the Tories have done no favours to. He's not actually driving the Tories out. You wouldn't call him illiberal and intolerant if he'd said it about the BNP (or maybe even UKIP, though you do seem to be perfectly aligned with them). If you want plenty of examples of illiberal intolerance you only have to look at the excoriation of, ridicule of and lies told about Corbyn by your side before the election. What a mistake. You now realise that you have to take him seriously.

Spain needs Catalonia, a relatively prosperous part of Spain, because its loss would seriously impoverish the country. Naturally, if the improbable ever came about and Catalonia did leave, the implications apropos of the EU would become relevant. In the meantime, the EU doesn't come into it. I'm far more concerned that Barça would no longer be part of La Liga, meaning no more El Clásico matches with Real Madrid. A bloody disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 06:36 AM

"The voice of tolerant, liberal, socialism."

Huh? I'm a nowt me old mucker*. Get that straight boy!

Also, you don't have to put up with a city full of hooray henry's, rich tosspots, drunken lecherous old lords, lying old etonians, the London media bubble transported look stock up here, bizzies everywhere and decent watering holes chock full of tory arseholes.

Gawd alone knows why they chose to have their conference here. Manchester is a fine city that deserves better than their sort.



*Actually, I've decided to test out a persona roughly based on the usual suspects (of which you're one Tezza) too try to gain some insight into the way their minds work; a sort of role-playing to try to suss out how their self-delusion works. I wonder if there is a paper in it. This was prompted by the exchange earlier in this thread where I got pissed off with the relentless idiocy of some of the 'members'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 07:06 AM

Monaco play in the French league Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM

That's a relief. In that case, go, Catalonia!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 12:35 PM

I am sure that IF Catalonia opted for independence it would be welcomed into the EU in accordance with the EU's own rules and procedures. Immediately on achieving independence Catalonia would find itself automatically OUT of the EU and it would have to apply for membership. The process would take between 10 and 15 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:09 PM

More than 400 injured by police in Catalonia referendum. This is where we see the real colours of the EU. Is this why a pan european defence force is being sought? Modern Spain is displaying the same jackboots as under Franco and the EU Leaders say nothing! Is this tacit encouragement? These events will make people unhappy throughout the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:25 PM

Jeremy Corbyn has campaigned and argued against the EU all his political life, it is extremely disingenuous to claim that his supposed support now is anything but a vote gathering process amongst the politically ignorant young "millennials".

These young folks are easy meat for the ideologues of the Stalinist Left who are now positioning themselves within the Labour Party.
It's history repeating itself....Remember "Militant" and how they were hounded from power with the help of the Unions, to re-install the status quo in the shape of Blair.

The wheel of fortune spins round and round and I'm sure Mr Corbys will soon be marginalised like Foot and Benn.
In politics, War War is more effective than Jaw Jaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:26 PM

This is where we see the real colours of the EU"
thought it was Spanish police did the damage
Didn't realise the EU had police
Silly me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:29 PM

Actions taken today by Spain's Ministry of the Interior and Guardia Civil Units deployed in Catalonia have now more or less guaranteed that Catalonia WILL now push for independence from Spain. The Basque region and Galicia will then follow suit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 01:54 PM

"Better a star on the EU flag than an unloved stain on the floor of the community of nations." - David Carter (UK)

Talking of the community of nations Mr. Carter, the largest international organisation in the world is the UN - a meaningless and ineffective "talking shop". Could you tell us what the second largest international organisation in the world is?

I think that you will find that it is "The Commonwealth of Nations" - an organisation established in 1931 by Great Britain and made up of former British Dominions, colonies, dependencies, protectorates and overseas territories IIRC 52 countries in all (Population in 2013 estimate
ed at 2,328,000,000) - so almost double the size of the EU in terms of member states with three times the population of the EU - that's some stain, and in terms of trading potential certainly not one that can be easily ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM

"Didn't realise the EU had police" Never heard of europa?
Silly me

Who am I to argue?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:12 PM

"politically ignorant young "millennials"

As opposed to the politically ignorant old white twats who fucked the world up?

Jog on, old man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:16 PM

ten, nine, eight

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:33 PM

Do you realise, Iains, how extremely silly your 01.09 post looks?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:49 PM

ONly one of mine and all of yours. Not a bad trade my man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM

"Who am I to argue?"
Why should you start now?
We are wellaware that British police were well able to mow down
MINERS' WIVES without the encouragement or assistance of the E.U.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 08:02 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM
"Who am I to argue?"
Why should you start now?
We are wellaware that British police were well able to mow down
MINERS' WIVES without the encouragement or assistance of the E.U.
Jim Carroll

I've read your link. It's necessary to go a long way into it in order to find that despite the appearance of the picture, the woman concerned was NOT hit by a policeman.
Despite what it says early in the article, that the picture is of Lesley Boulton, about to be hit by a policeman.
In Lesley's own words
"The photograph shows a mounted police officer with baton raised about to hit me on the head.
Lesley Boulton goes on to say:    

Lesley Boulton: "There had been some stuff going off before I arrived but I don't know exactly what happened. A few stones going over - nothing major at all. There was a standoff for a while - a few stones went over, and then there was a massive cavalry charge up into the village.

"The ranks of the police were several deep. They opened up and the police did a series of cavalry charges and pushed us back into the village and then blockades were set up - a police blockade at one side of the bridge and a miners' blockade at the other side of the bridge.
"There's a T-junction there and a bus stop. I was attending to a man who was on the ground and seemed to have some chest injuries.

"I was standing trying to attract the attention of a police officer in the road to get him an ambulance. I didn't know how serious it was but I thought it warranted some medical attention.

"As I stood up to attract this policeman's attention, this officer on a police horse just bore down on me."
This was the very moment that John Harris took the picture of Lesley.
"Fortunately for me there was someone standing behind me who was also with the injured miner, who just yanked me out of the way


So, Jim Carroll, are you ready to withdraw your comment?

The so-called 'victim' has stated that they weren't "Mown down" by the police.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 08:14 PM

Jim Carroll
Oh, and your post talks about police attacking "Miners Wives".
By her own statement, Lesley Boulton was not a miner's wife: The Guardian
I joined Sheffield Women Against Pit Closures early in the miners' strike, in 1984. It was made up of miners' wives or, in my case, politically aware women. I was in the anti-nuclear movement, and had been at Greenham Common. We knew a huge fight was coming, and it couldn't be ignored.

Sorry to have to put some actual facts in, but you clearly just repeat populist hearsay.

Again, would you care to withdraw your comments?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:06 AM

So - No Miner's wives mown down - Jim Carroll "Made-up-shit".

Same as with the non-existent piles of dead miners Carroll stated had been massacred at Tonypandy - shot down by armed police under the direct orders of Winston Churchill - more Jim Carroll "Made-up-shit".

Fortunately for the sake of the discussion Nigel, Jim Carroll never seems to read the articles he links to and, as you have just revealed, the article usually proves to be completely at odds with the point that Carroll is trying to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:41 AM

The relevance of miners in this thread escapes me, other than the fact that the cracking of heads seems to be a feature of the protestor's life since the police morphed into paramilitary bodies. I believe in the UK it started in London with the special control groups in 1961. The most recent demonstration of the art is in Catalonia.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:45 AM

"Spain's Constitutional Court has suspended the referendum and the central government says it is illegal.

That is all the Spanish Government had to do - no physical action was ever required.

Instead Guardia Civil Units were deployed there from other parts of Spain, people were physically prevented from voting, polling stations were stormed and people attacked resulting in horrendous scenes and 888 civilians and 11 police officers injured - small wonder no-one was killed.

Catalonia has an electorate of some 5.3 million. Of that number 2.2 million apparently managed to vote yesterday. I assume that that number mainly represents the "hard-core Separatist" element considering the publicity the event provoked in the days leading up to the referendum itself. Of the 2.2 million votes that were cast yesterday 90% voted for independence. That means 1.98 million out of an electorate of 5.3 million voted for independence for Catalonia.

The Spanish Government should have made their statement and permitted the non-binding, unconstitutional referendum to go ahead peacefully, denying the electorate nothing. The result, I believe, would have been a resounding NO.

The can has just been kicked a little further down the road. There will be a referendum at some point in the future and yesterday's events will have been etched on the minds of many Catalonians who up until yesterday were undecided.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:53 AM

"So, Jim Carroll, are you ready to withdraw your comment?"
Of course I most certainly not - the photograph I chose is Iconic of what happened at Orgreve and elsewhere https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/dec/02/miners-strike-orgreave-special-report where miners, their families and their supporters were beaten down by mounted police and those on foot carrying shields and batons
It was a vicious breach of democracy by Thatcher and her thugs compounded by the fact that she was prepared to use the army had she thought it necessary
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/03/margaret-thatcher-secret-plan-army-miners-strike
Thatcher was a self-confessed fascist who openly declared her admiration for a mass-murderer's style of government and described those who tried to bring him to trial for his crimes as "running a police state" (end of quote) – she even had her own little rally complete with crossed British/Chilean flags
Pinochet's crimes are beyond denial – there, but for what passes for British democracy, limited as it is, would have gone Britain, and I have no doubt that the miners would have held pride of place among her victims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM

Jim Carroll "Made-up-shit".
Carroll stated
more Jim Carroll "Made-up-shit".
Carroll is trying to make
(one posting)
It seems that our hero is baxck to his old insecure, thread-cosing self with a vengeance
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:13 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:53 AM
"So, Jim Carroll, are you ready to withdraw your comment?"
Of course I most certainly not - the photograph I chose is Iconic of what happened at Orgreve and elsewhere https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/dec/02/miners-strike-orgreave-special-report where miners, their families and their supporters were beaten down by mounted police and those on foot carrying shields and batons

The link you chose shows someone who turned up because there was going to be a fight (her own words)who was NOT hit by a police baton.

If the photo is 'iconic' of anything it is of the misrepresentation which can be found on almost any subject, and which is used by the politically inclined to support a biased 'historic' viewpoint.

You choose not to withdraw the statement. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM

The truth of the matter is that Scargill thought he was above the law.
The magnificent Thatcher chastised him with the rule of law. Government runs countries not jumped up unions. The industry was dying long before Thatcher arrived on the scene. Additionally, closing the industry prevented many deaths and injuries. In 1926 there were 1.2million miners, in 1976 247k. Thatcher was elected in 1979 well after the industry was in it's death throes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

Another early bonus from post Brexit:
Monarch Airlines goes bust. They cite the weak GB Pound (their transactions are in $s, revenue in Sterling). Deniers have a get-out (in their own planet) because the reduction in traditional middle east tourism due to fears over terrorism has weakened revenue in a currently more competitive market.

A legal nicety, courtesy of the EU, means 100,000 (really?) passengers need to be found/funded alternatives to be re-patriated. Another law that will need to be, and might be, Britisized, when Treeza (or Jezza gawd help us) get round to it.

Change costs money and those changes will cost us personally. And they are creeping out of the woodwork slowly. We will never be able to audit them all, but I can hear the pay-backers singing loudly on the pluses. Most of which will be emotional, rather than practical - like "we get to choose". We've chosen, we pay the price.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 05:27 AM

From: Mr Red - PM
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

Another early bonus from post Brexit:
Monarch Airlines goes bust. They cite the weak GB Pound (their transactions are in $s, revenue in Sterling). Deniers have a get-out (in their own planet) because the reduction in traditional middle east tourism due to fears over terrorism has weakened revenue in a currently more competitive market.

Anything to support that claim about the "weak GB pound" being the cause?
Even the BBC who usually take any opportunity to lash out at Brexit only mention it in passing.
From the BBC:
What has gone wrong?
Monarch reported a loss of £291m for the year to October 2016, compared with a profit of £27m for the previous 12 months, after revenues slumped.
It had been in last-ditch talks with the CAA about renewing its licence to sell package holidays, but failed to reach a deal
Blair Nimmo, from administrator KPMG, said its collapse was a result of "depressed prices" in the short haul travel market, alongside increased fuel costs and handling charges as a result of a weak pound.
The transport secretary blamed a victim of a "price war in the Med".
However, Monarch chief executive Andrew Swaffield said the "root cause" was terrorism in Egypt and Tunisia, as well as the collapse of the market in Turkey.
He said it had been carrying 14% more passengers than last year - but for £100m less revenue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:13 AM

If exchange rates are being blamed for economic problems now, think of the joys of corbynism. He has wargamed the impact of a run on the pound should he become premier. The loony left apparently have a vestigial contact with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:55 AM

What on earth are you complaining about? Your name is Carroll isn't it?

Or is it the fact that once more been caught out in a complete and utter fabrication?

"If the photo is 'iconic' of anything it is of the misrepresentation which can be found on almost any subject, and which is used by the politically inclined to support a biased 'historic' viewpoint." - Nigel Parsons

Seems as though someone else on this forum has got your number down dead to rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:58 AM

"The truth of the matter is that Scargill thought he was above the law.
The magnificent Thatcher chastised him with the rule of law."

Any support for this resounding declaration from you of what the truth is, what was in Scargill's mind or what Thatcher had him convicted him of? Let's see more of your sword of truth, Iains!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM

"What on earth are you complaining about? Your name is Carroll isn't it?"
My chosen identification is Jim Carroll "Carroll" is an attempt top talk down and bully as most schoolchildren know
I repeat the bit our Tory contingent have carefully ignored
Thatcher was a self-confessed fascist who openly declared her admiration for a mass-murderer's style of government and described those who tried to bring him to trial for his crimes as "running a police state" (end of quote) – she even had her own little rally complete with crossed British/Chilean flags
Pinochet's crimes are beyond denial – there, but for what passes for British democracy, limited as it is, would have gone Britain, and I have no doubt that the miners would have held pride of place among her victims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:30 AM

Scargill Arrested

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:34 AM

Thatcher? Pinochet? Another attempt to deflect attention away from the fact that you got caught out Carroll?

What have either to do with "Post Brexit life in the UK"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:39 AM

SCARGILL ARRESTED
POLICEMAN CALLS FOR ENQUIRY
MAY CONSIDERS ENQUIRY THIRTY YEARS TOO LATE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:42 AM

"Thatcher? Pinochet? Another attempt to deflect attention away from the fact that you got caught out Carroll?"
You are happy to discuss the miners strike - when it come to who caused it and how she behaved you run for cover
That's what it's got to do with post Brexit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:05 AM

Let's see more of your sword of truth, Iains!
Short answer. No!
Long answer. No!

Not in your classroom now stevie boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:09 AM

"You are happy to discuss the miners strike"

Really Carroll show me where and when?

First mention of "miners" was made by YOU - Jim Carroll - 01 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM - when you told your "porkie" about British police mowing down miner's wives.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:10 AM

You are happy to discuss the miners strike - when it come to who caused it and how she behaved you run for cover
That's what it's got to do with post Brexit
Jim Carroll

I think, if you look a little further up the thread you will find that you introduced the miners' strike with your link to a photo which you thought supported the contention that 'miners wives' were 'mown down' by the British police.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:34 AM

I introduced the photo to show that our police are quite happy to behave like those in Barcelona without help of the EU hence my comment
You people took it up and used it as yet another opportunity to give the British working man a kicking, as is your wont and you all have been quite happy to do so until you are faced with the fact that the woman you all support was a self confessed fascist – then you all shit blue olllies and cry foul – thus is your grasp of open debate
Elsewhere your ilk has been happy to take any subject and use it as an opportunity to launch racist attacks on Travellers
God bless British democracy and freedom of speech
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:37 AM

"A legal nicety, courtesy of the EU, means 100,000 (really?) passengers need to be found/funded alternatives to be re-patriated. Another law that will need to be, and might be, Britisized, when Treeza (or Jezza gawd help us) get round to it."

The UK repatriated people stranded by bankrupt airlines long before joining the EU. I suggest you look at the history of Court Line.
I actually know a little about this as a part of the operation survived in Capetown as Court Helicopters and I flew them for 2.5 years.
Court Line

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:03 AM

I introduced the photo to show that our police are quite happy to behave like those in Barcelona without help of the EU
And I have made clear that that photo showed nothing of the sort.

You people took it up and used it as yet another opportunity to give the British working man a kicking, as is your wont
Sorry, where was that?

Elsewhere your ilk has been happy to take any subject and use it as an opportunity to launch racist attacks on Travellers
I have never made racist comments about travellers

God bless British democracy and freedom of speech
Yes, it gives you the right to spread lies and disinformation.
Unfortunately for you it also gives us the right to correct your errors.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:15 AM

"I have never made racist comments about travellers"
I said your ilk
You can tell a man who boozes by the company he chooses
And the bleedin' pig got up and walked away.
As the song so eloquently puts it
If I tell lies have the balls to point them out and not just allude to them - another thing common to your ilk
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:22 AM

Hi Iains

<" Government runs countries not jumped up unions">

Not Completely true. The Unions have huge influence on the Labour Party. They dance to the Unions' tune. Ask Red Ed Milliband.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:26 AM

Jim,
If you attribute attitudes and actions to me "and my ilk" you are tarring us all with a very broad brush. Just the thing you would not wish us to do for travellers.

As for your lies, you stated that British police were able to mow down miners wives. If not a lie, then at the very least an unsubstantiated accusation. Just like your comments about miners being killed in South Wales.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:30 AM

"You people took it up and used it as yet another opportunity to give the British working man a kicking"

You linked your totally misrepresentative photograph and were pulled up for doing THAT - please point out to anyone reading this thread where anybody then went on to "give the British working man a kicking". Since posting your lie - 01 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM - nobody has even mentioned the British working man you clown.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:40 AM

"You linked your totally misrepresentative photograph and were pulled up for doing THAT -"
You have persitently kicked workers - scroungers ruiners of industry - lazy stupid.... even a potential itinerant work force
Hour hatred of ordinary Brits reches the same level as how you regard Travellers and the Irish
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 11:29 AM

MikeL2
"They dance to the Unions' tune. Ask Red Ed Milliband."
I found the tune they dance to! Enjoy.

Hotel Corbynista

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 12:27 PM

"The link you chose shows someone who turned up because there was going to be a fight (her own words)who was NOT hit by a police baton."
From my link
Grace Shaw: So it's Orgreave on a sunny day in June, didn't look like it was all about to kick off. What happened next?
Lesley Boulton: "There had been some stuff going off before I arrived but I don't know exactly what happened. A few stones going over - nothing major at all. There was a standoff for a while - a few stones went over, and then there was a massive cavalry charge up into the village.
"The ranks of the police were several deep. They opened up and the police did a series of cavalry charges and pushed us back into the village and then blockades were set up - a police blockade at one side of the bridge and a miners' blockade at the other side of the bridge.
"There's a T-junction there and a bus stop. I was attending to a man who was on the ground and seemed to have some chest injuries.
"I was standing trying to attract the attention of a police officer in the road to get him an ambulance. I didn't know how serious it was but I thought it warranted some medical attention.
"The skin of my teeth"
>"As I stood up to attract this policeman's attention, this officer on a police horse just bore down on me."
This was the very moment that John Harris took the picture of Lesley.
"Fortunately for me there was someone standing behind me who was also with the injured miner, who just yanked me out of the way.
"The photographer John Harris was using a motor drive and I've seen not just the famous photograph but the subsequent picture which shows the baton going down very close to me.
"I felt it go past me. I was just missed by the skin of my teeth really.
"That part was very, very disturbing. The police were actually having a very good time, they were enjoying this huge exercise of brutal authority, so I found that very disturbing.
"You got the sense that they were just out of control and quite a few miners were injured on the day. One young lad that I took a photo of had his leg broken. There were quite a lot of injuries."
GS: If the policeman's baton had hit you, would it probably have knocked you out?
LB: "Oh absolutely, without equivocation."
GS: Do you think the policeman thought you were a miner?
LB: "I don't know, I was holding a camera as I was trying to attract attention and I don't know what he thought really. The police were completely carried away. Some of them were laughing and obviously enjoying this exercise of their power.
The footage from Orgreave showed police on horses charging into defenceless men, and one officer repeatedly lashing a miner, Russell Broomhead, over the head with a truncheon. There was also the shocking photograph of a woman, Lesley Boulton, seemingly about to be smashed across the head with a long stave wielded by a police officer on a horse. She was pulled to safety, but many of the newspaper pictures of arrested miners showed them bleeding down their bodies from nasty wounds to their heads.

From The Daily Star 1st December 2013
The shot of Lesley Boulton narrowly avoiding a baton strike was a key image of the 1984-85 dispute.
But the negatives disappeared after she tried to bring an assault case.
They were considered a "crucial piece of evidence" but police argued the image may have been tampered with.
Without them, Lesley's case – which backed up accounts by miners who said they were "indiscriminately battered" by police the same day – never went ahead.
No officer ever faced charges over the events at Orgreave, South Yorks, on June 18, 1984, during which 51 miners were injured.
Almost 30 years on, campaigners want justice and the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) is studying files from the time.
Lesley, 68, hopes they contain clues about what happened to the negatives, which she believes were stolen from a London picture library.
She also says her case files went missing after a "senior police officer from London" visited her Sheffield lawyers.
I don't tell lies, but On the other hand, those who make statements like this do
" non-existent piles of dead miners Carroll stated had been massacred at Tonypandy - shot down by armed police under the direct orders"
I have said exactly how many were killed at Tonypandy adding only that eye witnesses claimed there were several more
The thousnds is made up Teribus lying shit
Daily Mirror journalist, Geoffrey Goodman, in his 'The Enemy Within' describes early morning baton charges through mining villages where up to twenty women and children were injured
If I missed the detail on one atrocity there are others to choose from   
As I said – I don't tell lies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 12:54 PM

I wouldn't exactly call Ed Miliband "red," Mike. And Labour, in thirteen years, didn't exactly reverse the swingeing attacks on the unions by the preceding Tory regimes, did they? It's right and proper, given the origins of Labour and trade unionism, that the unions have a voice. With the Tories it's big business and vested interests who have the voice, not to speak of the hard right in the party who are at this very moment plotting to get rid of May. But the Labour Party does not dance to the union tune and, arguably, never did. That's just tired old Tory party propaganda and it stopped working for you decades ago. If any PM in history did dance to the unions' tune it was Edward Heath. And Cameron danced to both the hard right tune and the UKIP tune. My pay doubled under Heath in a mere 18 months in the early 70s and the unions were cock-a-hoop. Anyway, I've been a trade union member for 45 years and am now a Labour Party member too. We're better together!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:08 PM

Nigel
"If you attribute attitudes and actions to me "and my ilk" you are tarring us all with a very broad brush. "
Just as those who use terms such as "leftie" do
I have yet to disassociate yourself from these low-life and you support the same policies, so your silence is proof enough fro me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:35 PM

Here we have a Jim Carroll CLASSIC:

"I don't tell lies, but On the other hand, those who make statements like this do

" non-existent piles of dead miners Carroll stated had been massacred at Tonypandy - shot down by armed police under the direct orders", [Teribus]

I have said exactly how many were killed at Tonypandy adding only that eye witnesses claimed there were several more
The thousnds is made up Teribus lying shit

Jim Carroll's lies:

1: That miners were shot and killed (piles of corpses) in Tonypandy under the direct orders ("shoot left", "Shoot right") of Winston Churchill. ONE Miner died as the result of a head injury caused by a baton not a bullet. The truth is that NO Miners were shot or died as the result of gunfire. The truth is that Winston Churchill was opposed to sending in troops and he was not present to order anybody to do anything.

2: Looking at my post quoted above where is the reference to there being thousands? I cannot see it - Jim Carroll can - Jim Carroll always sees things that are simply not there.

3: Miner's wives that were mown down - NO SUCH THING EVER OCCURRED - to state that it did IS A LIE.

4: "You people took it up [Carroll's Iconic Photograph] and used it as yet another opportunity to give the British working man a kicking" - Jim Carroll

You linked your totally misrepresentative photograph and were pulled up for doing THAT - please point out where anybody then went on to "give the British working man a kicking". Since posting your lie - 01 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM - nobody has even mentioned the British working man you clown.

LIES Carroll and they are all YOURS.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:56 PM

From Russia today.
"It took the European Commission more than a day to respond to Sunday's violence in Catalonia, in which a police crackdown on voters left some 900 people injured. The EU Council president has urged the Spanish PM to avoid further "escalation" and "use of force."

Strange behaviour. It was obvious to a two year old that violence was going to occur. Seems the President could have been a bit more prescient and forceful with his pathetically inadequate pronouncements. I also get the distinct impression the newspapers are trying hard to downplay the events in Catalonia. Maybe not false news, but a little massaging perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:17 PM

Maybe it's like Northern Ireland. Maybe you need to live there.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM

Hi Steve

I was not inferring that I thought Ed Milliband was a "Red". I was just repeating the name he had been called towards the end of his sad time as leader.

I too benefited from Heath's "generosity !!

I had moved companies at that time. I was paid a good salary - what they offered at my interview. After being in the nine months it tirn out they had quoted me the wrong rate for the job nine months . I was back-payed nine months' pay which included a 15% increase thanks to Heath.Didn't like the guy but I did raise my glass to him !!!!

Hope you had a great time in Madeira - We love the place. The soil is so fertile that if you stuck a broom handle in the soil it would sprout and produce flowers.
Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:00 PM

We loved it, Mike. It was our first visit and we didn't really travel much beyond lovely Funchal, though we did get to the incredible viewpoint at Cabo Girão and the fishing village of Câmara de Lobos where there's an amazing fish restaurant. We stayed outside Funchal near São Martinho in a lovely B&B, discovered courtesy of Alastair Sawday's website. Glorious gardens and great civic pride and we'll be back! And yes we did do a levada walk, unguided and slightly hair-raising in places! Good old EU!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:19 PM

By the way, Mike, how can I not mention those traditional Portuguese custard tarts. I think I know a lady down in Exeter Quays who makes them, though only on Saturdays. I have my bus pass. My God, how I live in hope...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:37 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:08 PM
Nigel
"If you attribute attitudes and actions to me "and my ilk" you are tarring us all with a very broad brush. "
Just as those who use terms such as "leftie" do
I have yet to disassociate yourself from these low-life and you support the same policies, so your silence is proof enough fro me

So, according to you anyone who uses the term 'leftie' is a 'low-life'. As I said, very broad brush-strokes.
As for "I have yet to disassociate yourself" that is a clause that makes no sense however I try to read it. I have not, knowingly, associated myself with 'low-lifes' and so cannot disassociate myself. But you seem to be saying that you can disassociate myself.

I think I shall leave this thread for now, as I am past trying to reconcile what you say/type with anything either reasonable or understandable in the English language.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM

"So, according to you anyone who uses the term 'leftie' is a 'low-life'. As I said, very broad brush-strokes."
It is used as a term of abuse on this forum by those who throwit about - a dismissal of argument - it is usually terminated by "mob" or "pack" or "gang"
I have no problem wit being described as "leftie" though it is inaccurate - I am a humanist with left wing views and an interest in politics and history
By "low-life", I'm referring to those who substitute name-calling personal insults and blustering bullying for articulate argument
You tand to make your points more intelligently and usually, I can see where you are coming from and argue if I disagree, but your political views invariably run on simiar to the low-life and you have disparaged and name-called on occasion (I think - if I am wrong, I apologise).
These are the people I associate your arguments with
Your last insulting sentence tends to confirm what I believe
I'm not particularly well educated, but I have always read up my interests
I make a large number of typos due to an idiosyncratic keyboard which I'm reluctant to replace because of its transcription features, but I' not bad at spelling and I say what I say as clearly and honestly as I can and link to published information when possible
The problem with these forums is that they are full of "ioks" (another favourite phrase of your friends) who haven't had the benefit of a higher education
Maybe you should opt for 'First Class' rather than 'Steerage' !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:52 AM

Anything to support that claim about the "weak GB pound" being the cause?
Yea the BBC reported
"the weakness of the pound following Brexit"
implication, if not attribution.

Plenty of pundits in the city ascribe the weakness of the pound to uncertainties over Brexit. You don't have to look far, but you do have to look. Your choice not to. Feel free.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:28 AM

I think part of the problem is that some people are asserting Brexit is THE cause of Monarch's failure (or other issue of your choice) while others are pointing out it is not THE cause.

The reality is that the weakness of the pound is A cause, amongst others. Nigel's post where he asked for evidence that it was the cause even contained a bit he highlighted himself saying it was a factor. It was just not the single and sole cause, or even perhaps the most dominant factor.

That is still a cause in my book. You may disagree, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:44 AM

My response about Monarch Airlines was a response to Mr Red's post of 2/10/17 04:51 which appeared to put the whole affair down to Brexit.
The various published comments do no appear to give any credence to that view.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 07:06 AM

That's fair enough, Nigel, but I am sure you can appreciate that arguing that "the whole affair cannot be put down to Brexit" risks be misunderstood as "Brexit is not involved in any way." Quite different things, I hope you agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 07:57 AM

That's fair enough, Nigel, but I am sure you can appreciate that arguing that "the whole affair cannot be put down to Brexit" risks be misunderstood as "Brexit is not involved in any way." Quite different things, I hope you agree.

Yes, I fully agree that that form of wording could be misleading to those who do not read English carefully. Fortunately I didn't use that phrase. What I said was: My response about Monarch Airlines was a response to Mr Red's post of 2/10/17 04:51 which appeared to put the whole affair down to Brexit. As you'll see I was not attempting to identify the root (or any) cause. Just pointing out that Mr Red's comment appeared to read that Brexit was the sole cause of Monarch's failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 02:55 PM

Hi Steve

Glad you enjoyed Madeira.

I know most of the places you mentioned.

We ate in Camara de lobos Several times. We sampled Espada - fried fish with banana - lovely. We also enjoyed their Espatada which is Beef wrapped in banana leaves served on huge metal skewers.
We saw the Espada fish in the fish market - ugly huge black fish that looks as though it was wearing a black shiny raincoat.

We stayed in the Eden Mar hotel quite close to the Lido.

We did several of the Levada walks and enjoyed them thoroughly.

On one of these purely by chance we happened on the Madeira Football Ground. They were holding a sports day for the schools. We were invited to watch and they gave us a bottle of wine. On the outside of the pitch several of the Madeira football team were training. We took several pictures of the day.
Some years later we were going through the pictures with our son and family. My wife had taken a shot of three young footballers running.
Our son jumped up and shouted " that is Ronaldo". At that time he was playing for Manchester United.

Your post gives us both lovely memories. Thanks

Regards.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:13 PM

Ah, that's great, Mike. And this lovely bit of Madeira banter is definitely on-topic as Madeira, being Portugal, is very much a part of the EU. I wonder what they'll think of us Brits once we leave. We won't be quite so special any more. We'll be more like all those yanks who arrive in massive cruise ships and fill the little Funchal streets with their noise (and their dollars, I suppose). We saw the espada in that fabulously-smelly fish market too. The fish restaurant in Camara was owned by a chap who also owned a meat restaurant. We much preferred the former. We had garoupa the first night and bream the next time we went. It was a brilliant restaurant. Five stars when I get round to Trip Advisor!

We went to Blandy's for a tour and a Madeira tasting. The five-year-old Bual was on special offer so we bought six bottles, delivered for free to the post-security departure area. Jaysus, we struggled to lug that lot around!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:40 AM

Portugal is England's oldest ally in Europe, the alliance goes back centuries so I do not think their attitude to "us Brits" will change in any significant way. We will still be welcome as visitors who contribute a massive amount to their economy.

Meanwhile over the border in Spain it would appear that their government is determined to make a bad situation even worse. The Catalan President is on record as stating that either at the end of this week, or early next week, they could declare themselves independent.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:16 AM

I see many here would prefer to cast nasturtiums rather that aspersions at the EU. Must be nice to live in the gilded bubble of constant delusion. Meanwhile down the rabbit hole, wherein lies reality: The Catalonians have ejected over 500 police from their hotels, 700,000 people are protesting in Barcelona, and the Catalan President intends to declare independence shortly.A General Strike has also been called for. This is just the start. Anyone for happy families?

Some very significant points raised in the article below, especially concerning human rights legislation and it's abandonment in the EU.

Referendum ripples.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:29 AM

"Portugal is England's oldest ally "
Portugal was a fascist state under Salazar up to 1974
Great reference!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:32 AM

Whoops, for the pedents
"under Salazar up to 1974 "
Should read "till four years after his death, up to 1974
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:49 AM

Jim I fail to see the point you are making.
Britain was allied with Stalin and Chiang Ki Shek during WW2.

Do you not realise expediency makes for strange bedfellows.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:35 AM

"Britain was allied with Stalin and Chiang Ki Shek during WW2."
Despite Trumps best efforts, we are not at war
Terubus put up Portugal as historically reliable - I pointed out that they were a fascist state up to 1974 - how reliable is that?
This love-affair wasn't an expediency measure - it was "the marriage of true minds" - a match made in heaven, in fact
I'm not a great fan of either Stalin and Chiang Ki Shek, so I fail to see your addressing this to me
Back to Brexit
The rights and wrongs of taking the decision to leave aside, the present leadership seems to be staggering from crisis to crisis over implementing the decision
Mayflower naused up her majority in an attempt to strengthen her hand and was forced to bung a Party with terrorist connections £1billion of the taxpayers money to clean up her mess
She has now been forced to appeal to the contenders for her position to "put Britain first rather than their own political ambitions"
Predictions on the budget show that the present shitty position of the have-nots in Britain will remain unaltered and almost certainly deteriorate due to the uncertain economic future of trade and industry
I told them there'd be tears before bedtime, but did they listen?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 07:23 AM

Jim:
Mayflower naused up her majority in an attempt to strengthen her hand and was forced to bung a Party with terrorist connections £1billion of the taxpayers money to clean up her mess

You frequently berate other users (not me) for deliberate miss-use of your given name. You can correctly name Salazar & Chiang Ki Shek. Does not Theresa May deserve similar courtesy?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:16 AM

"Terubus put up Portugal as historically reliable - I pointed out that they were a fascist state up to 1974"

Yet ANOTHER Jim Carroll misrepresentation!!!

A number of points Jom:

1: Where exactly did I say that Portugal was "historically reliable" (Whatever that means")

I believe I merely pointed out that Portugal was ENGLAND's oldest ally in Europe - a historical fact.

2: Portugal has been recognised as a sovereign independent state since 1143. Which makes it 874 years old, in that time it was a right wing dictatorship between 1933 and 1974 a total of 41 years or 4.7% of the time it has been an independent country. So Carroll could also have stated and pointed out that Portugal has not been a fascist state for 95.3% of the time that it has been in existence.

What is your point Jom?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM

"What is your point Jom?"
I think the point here is you are incapable of responding in an adult fashion to anyboody who doesn't subscribe to your own inflated opinion of yourself
You appear not to be bright enough to work out that your loutish behaviour acts as flag indicating that yoiu are at a loss for an intelligent answer
Britain's friendship with a fascist state is always worth a mention as far as I'm concerned
"Does not Theresa May deserve similar courtesy?"
You are not seriously putting the politicians who act like clowns and consistently screw us out of bounds are you Nigel
If they can lie their way into power, than I feel perfectly at ease taking the piss out of them in any way I can
Does a politician who does deals with terrorist linked parties, bungs them a billion of the taxpayers money as a bribe and screws up her own majority deserve our courtesy - what do you think Nigel?
Seesh - what a question!!!
Really made my day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:14 AM

Cameron disrespected the whole country by calling a referendum that was all about seeing off his own hardliners and UKIP. May disrespected the whole country by calling an election which was entirely about her own party's interests and nothing to do with the country's interests. During her campaign she disrespected Corbyn time and time again. To her cost, I'm delighted to say. You don't "deserve" courtesy. You earn it, or at least you don't forfeit the right to it. She has not earned it and she has it coming as far as I'm concerned. I can think of far stronger names than Mayflower I'd like to call her. Don't you ever look at political cartoons, Nigel? And, while you're castigating Jim for that peccadillo, how about castigating those on your side of the argument who consistently refuse to address us by the names we choose to use here?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:20 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:14 AM
Cameron disrespected the whole country by calling a referendum that was all about seeing off his own hardliners and UKIP. May disrespected the whole country by calling an election which was entirely about her own party's interests and nothing to do with the country's interests. During her campaign she disrespected Corbyn time and time again. To her cost, I'm delighted to say. You don't "deserve" courtesy. You earn it, or at least you don't forfeit the right to it. She has not earned it and she has it coming as far as I'm concerned. I can think of far stronger names than Mayflower I'd like to call her. Don't you ever look at political cartoons, Nigel? And, while you're castigating Jim for that peccadillo, how about castigating those on your side of the argument who consistently refuse to address us by the names we choose to use here?

You seem to have have missed the whole point with your argument. I am not supporting those who miss-use Jim's given name. I'm pointing out that Jim, or yourself, should conduct yourselves in the way you expect others to conduct themselves. I do not address comments to "Jom" or "Carroll" and I can understand why he gets annoyed with those who do. But he can hardly complain about it if he does the same for the names of others. (Such as calling Theresa May "Mayflower"). I was pointing out his double standards in this respect.

As to "deserving" courtesy, it is not the same as 'respect' in that it needs to be earned. If you treat someone with a lack of courtesy, it reflects not upon that person, but on you.

If you were a teacher, you may have expected a class to greet you with "Good morning, sir." That does not show that you have earned their respect (as it is expected of every class even before they get to know the teacher) it is a sign that they are being taught to act courteously.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:10 PM

The "Cameron calling the referendum" nonsense I thought that Nigel Parsons had completely rubbished that. Very boring of you Shaw to persist with it, but nobody would expect anything else from you.

Now back to Carroll (For whom I have no respect whatsoever) that keen self-proclaimed student of "history", who always seems to get things spectacularly wrong. I would have thought that being a keen self-proclaimed student of history he would know the difference between ENGLAND, Great Britain and the United Kingdom. Carroll obviously does not. Portugal being ENGLAND's oldest ally in Europe has got absolutely S.F.A. to do with who Great Britain cozied up to in the years 1933 to 1974. In actual fact Great Britain was somewhat less than friendly towards Salazar's Portugal when Goa declared itself independent in 1961.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:11 PM

I told all my classes never to call me "sir." I tried to build the relationship on politeness and a friendly demeanour all round. We can reserve "sir" for knights of the realm and for use by policemen booking me for speeding when they ask me the Great Unanswerable Question, "Didn't you see the speed limit sign back there, sir?"

Calling politicians names and lampooning them is all par for the course. 'Twas ever thus. In fact, it's a healthy sign that we live in a democracy and not a dictatorship, in which "disrespecting" leaders could cost you your head. It is not the same on this forum as we are addressing each other, not third parties who aren't listening. There has been a very persistent trend for two members here to call Jim "Jom" or "Carroll" and me "Shaw." Yes plenty of us are guilty of indulging in similar practices at times, it can't be gainsaid. However, the Shaw, Jom And Carroll are hostile attempts at talking down by two people who are singularly unqualified to talk down to anyone. I remember way back in the seventies when the school at which I taught got a new headmaster. He thought he could swan in and address the staff by their surnames only. He soon discovered that he couldn't, because we adopted a strict policy among ourselves of not recognising that he was addressing us at all until he decided to become a little more polite. That learned him.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:16 PM

I see your telling-off for being high on the list of problem posters is wearing off, Teribus. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:24 PM

declared itself independent in 1961.
Salazar was found to be a fascist in 1933
The fact that it took thirty years to break the friendship oof these two bosom buddies seems to me to be a case of theives falling out
" Carroll (For whom I have no respect whatsoever)"
Nice to know I still have you on the back-foot
You'll never learn, will you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:31 PM

Hardly hostile - Shaw and Carroll do happen to be your names.

Jom on the other hand was how the man himself signed off one of his own posts so I cannot see his objection to it - or yours Shaw. It is rather funny that the only "names" you "object to" are those mentioned, while both of you find no problem with those used by yourselves and others.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:58 PM

Just one more time for a self-proclaimed student of history:

Portugal is ENGLAND's oldest ally in Europe

ENGLAND - Jom - ceased being the signatory of any international agreements, alliances or treaties after the year 1707.

Now what were those Salazar dates again Jom? Before or AFTER 1707?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:33 PM

I didn't mention agreements Teribus and your "jom" makes it quite clear that you are fully aware of that fact and need to strut and bully to save face
You don't need a piece of paper to cozy up to a fascist regime - just something in common with them
You weer the one who described Portugal as "England's oldest ally in Europe" and pointed out that "the alliance goes back centuries"
If you don't want to lose a foot, don't open your mouth.
"Hardly hostile - Shaw and Carroll do happen to be your names."
Pathetic little man
Hilarious scenes at the Tory party conference
AS Mayfly fluttered her way through her speech, the board bearing the Tory Party slogan behind her head began to shed its letters one by one (very symbolic) and someone ran up and handed her her P45 (even more symbolic)
There certainly is no business like show business
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM

" how about castigating those on your side of the argument who consistently refuse to address us by the names we choose to use here?"
What a sensitive little flower. Has your usage of Inanes slipped your mind?
I believe respect has to be earned. Now I would be the first to admit that there are a couple that post here that periodically I find hard work. However you are in a league of your own stevie boy. Rest assured, I hold you in the deepest contempt and it will be an epic journey down a long winding road before you will have reformed sufficiently to earn my respect. Just look at your postings through the eyes of those on the receiving end. Overbearing,bullying, sanctimonious, priggish, arrogant to name but a few of your less desirable qualities that are displayed to excess each time you post.That is in addition to your inane posturing and quack diagnoses of a persons supposed insecurity.Besides boasting of being a well educated scientist do you flog snake oil on the markets down in Cornwall?You have some gall to dare criticize others on this forum!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:01 PM

"What a sensitive little flower. Has your usage of Inanes slipped your mind?"
You are as simple minded as your strutting mate but not as experienced at it
Grow up foir fuck's sake, it's lioke dealing with dysfunctional children
You are not even imaginative enough to be original
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:04 PM

Hi Steve

It sounds like the same restaurant that we used all those years ago.

We never tried the Garoupa ( Grouper Fish ?)
But I had several times the Dorada Sea Bream).My wife preferred sea bass - Robala if I remember rightly. Delicious.

We did the Blandy's Tour too. .....but we didn't roll out with 6 bottles, although it felt like I'd supped 6 bottles in the tasting room...lol

I really don't care if Portugal was facist under Salavar. I found the peopleto be courteous and friendly and always ready to help. One we went walking around the rocks and shore and several hours later that I had lost my wallet which contained all my money,credit cards and return air tickets. I went to the police station in Funchal. Within three minutes my wallet was returned entact. I asked the Police who returned it and they told me it was a shop keeper from down the road. I went and met the lady and thanked her. I offered her some money and she point blank refused it. I prefer to judge people as they are today

Would that have happened in England......I doubt it.

Steve I am pleased to hear the you are going back. You will be remembered and treated well.

Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:12 PM

'Double standard & hypocrisy' from the EU. Catalan NO, Kosovo YES

https://www.rt.com/news/405659-catalonia-referendum-spain-serbia/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM

Ooh, touchy little Inanes! Can you read? For your benefit (and Teribus's - he missed it too) I'll say it again.

Ahem.

"Yes plenty of us are guilty of indulging in similar practices at times, it can't be gainsaid."

Did you both manage to catch it that time? Seems as though you both could have used a bit of schooling!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM

"You weer the one who described Portugal as "England's oldest ally in Europe" and pointed out that "the alliance goes back centuries"

Portugal is England's oldest ally in Europe - In fact it is the oldest treaty in the world

The alliance does go back centuries, signed as it was on 16 June 1373 between King Edward III of England and King Ferdinand and Queen Eleanor of Portugal - That is going back centuries isn't it?

With regard to Salazar, that fascist you were on about, the treaty ensured agreement with regard to Portuguese neutrality during the Second World War and kept the Iberian Peninsula out of the war. Salazar, that fascist you were on about granted Great Britain use of airbases in the Azores to help combat the German U-boats during the Battle of the Atlantic - So in ensuring the defeat of the fascist Axis Powers during the Second world War, that Portuguese fascist Salazar did a damned sight more that "good ol' Dev" did in Dublin.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:23 PM

Dunno whether the people in mainland Portugal are the same, but everyone we met in Madeira was utterly gracious, helpful and charming. We didn't have to pick up those bottles until we got to the duty-free beyond security, Mike, though we paid for them at Blandy's (great arrangement!) and they were in two decidedly sealed bags! I hasten to add that most of them are prezzies for people!

Most...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:25 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM
Ooh, touchy little Inanes
There you go again. "Sauce for the goose . . ." ?

Did you both manage to catch it that time? Seems as though you both could have used a bit of schooling!

Presumably you benefitted from "a bit of schooling". Perhaps you need to read Alexander Pope on that subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:34 PM

You're getting a bit literal in your youth/middle age/old age, Nigel (delete as applicable). Try doing subtle. Try reading between the lines. Try to be a bit less po-faced. Let's have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:34 PM

"that Portuguese fascist Salazar did a damned sight more that "good ol' Dev" did in Dublin."
Salazar remained in Power and remained a fascist until his death in 1970 - his fascist government survived for another four years - still Britain's closest ally apart from minor spats
I have no more time for Dev than I have for any of this lot - but at least they backed away from Stalin when they found what he was while good old Britain remained friends with Salazar, who, maybe not so coincidentally, was still around whien Madd Maggie's mentor was butchering, raping and torturing his way through the Chilean young people in SANTIAGO STADIUM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:47 PM

That's a beautiful piece, Jim. Cheers for that. When I read it I don't want to think of Thatcher's sycophantic support of Pinochet, as the people mentioned in the piece are totally without bitterness. But I can't help it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:34 AM

"Salazar remained in Power and remained a fascist until his death in 1970"

Franco lasted in Spain until 1975, "Communists and left-wing critics called his regime "fascist", but academics typically categorize it as conservative and authoritarian." The nature of the regime in Spain changed markedly over the period Franco was in power. The same can be said of Salazar's regime in Portugal. "Salazar founded and led the Estado Novo ("New State"), the corporatist authoritarian government that ruled Portugal until 1974. The Estado Novo collapsed during the Carnation Revolution of 1974. Evaluations of his regime have varied, however, there is a general consensus that Salazar was one of the most influential figures in Portuguese history."

This by the way was the Portugal that Salazar grew up in:

The era of the First Republic (1910 to 1926) has been described as one of "continual anarchy, government corruption, rioting and pillage, assassinations, arbitrary imprisonment and religious persecution". It witnessed the inauguration of eight presidents, 44 cabinet re-organisations and 21 revolutions. The first government of the Republic lasted less than 10 weeks and the longest-ruling government lasted little over a year. Revolution in Portugal became a byword in Europe. The cost of living increased twenty-fivefold, while the currency fell to a ?1/33 part of its gold value. Portugal's public finances and the economy in general entered a critical phase, having been under imminent threat of default since at least the 1890s. The gaps between the rich and the poor continued to widen. The regime led Portugal to enter World War I in 1916, a move that only aggravated the perilous state of affairs in the country. Concurrently, the Catholic Church was hounded by the anti-clerical Freemasons of the Republic and political assassination and terrorism became general. Between 1920 and 1925, according to official police figures, 325 bombs burst in the streets of Lisbon. The British diplomat Sir George Rendel said that he could not describe the "political background as anything but deplorable... very different from the orderly, prosperous and well-managed country that it later became under the government of Senhor Salazar". Salazar would keep in mind the political chaos of this time when he later ruled Portugal..........

Salazar was a law graduate who specialised in finance and the economic policy. After the military revolutionary coup in 1926 Salazar reluctantly entered government after much pleading and persuasion as Finance Minister in 1928, with Portugal under the threat of an imminent financial collapse:

"he personally secured from Carmona a categorical assurance that as finance minister he would have a free hand to veto expenditure in all government departments, not just his own. Salazar was the financial czar virtually from the day he took office.
Within one year, armed with special powers, Salazar balanced the budget and stabilised Portugal's currency. Restoring order to the national accounts, enforcing austerity and red-penciling waste, Salazar produced the first of many budgetary surpluses, an unparalleled novelty in Portugal"

In 1932 Salazar became Portugal's 100th Prime Minister:

"The authoritarian government consisted of a right-wing coalition, and he was able to co-opt the moderates of each political current with the aid of censorship and repression directed against those outside of it. Those perceived to be genuine fascists were jailed or exiled. Conservative Catholics were Salazar's earliest and most loyal supporters, whereas conservative republicans who could not be co-opted became his most dangerous opponents during the early period. They attempted several coups, but never presented a united front, consequently these attempts were easily repressed. Never a true monarchist, Salazar nevertheless gained most of the monarchists' support, as Manuel II of Portugal, the exiled and deposed last king of Portugal, always endorsed Salazar. Later, in 1932, it was due to Salazar's actions that the deposed king was given a state funeral."

Now then Carroll, take heed of this bit:

"The National Syndicalists were torn between supporting the regime and denouncing it as bourgeois. They were granted enough symbolic concessions for Salazar to win over the moderates, but the rest were repressed by the political police. They were silenced shortly after 1933 as Salazar attempted to PREVENT THE RISE OF NATIONAL SOCIALISM IN PORTUGAL". What a strange thing for a "fascist" to do. As is this:

"Just before World War II, Salazar made this declaration: "We are opposed to all forms of Internationalism, Communism, Socialism, Syndicalism and everything that may divide or minimise, or break up the family. We are against class warfare, irreligion and disloyalty to one's country; against serfdom, a materialistic conception of life, and might over right."

Shaw was wondering how he would be received in Madeira after we left the EU. That is how we got onto this diversion of yours Carroll. I still stick to my original answer to Shaw's question - No different to how he was treated before.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 03:59 AM

"I have no more time for Dev than I have for any of this lot - but at least they backed away from Stalin when they found what he was while good old Britain remained friends with Salazar, who, maybe not so coincidentally, was still around whien Madd Maggie's mentor was butchering, raping and torturing his way through the Chilean young people in SANTIAGO STADIUM
Jim Carroll


1: "No time for good ol' Dev" Jim?? But he is a hero of yours, one of the "men of the gun" from 1916 who did so much to completely fuck up any hope of a united Ireland. The man who opted for not one but two wars and screwed up the economy of the fledgling Irish Nation.

2: This "Stalin" that everybody backed away from. Was that the same Stalin referred to in the "Good old Joe" banner you were so proud about being photographed under? The same Stalin that your relatives and Ewan McColl were in tears over when he died? The same Stalin that murdered ~50 million of his own people?

3: Think that we have shown that Salazar was NOT a fascist in any sense of the word.

4: What proof is there that Margaret Thatcher even knew Augusto Pinochet in 1973? He certainly was not her "Mentor" as you describe, she was already Prime Minister by the time the UK Government had any dealings with Chile and the regime of Augusto Pinochet.

As a self-proclaimed keen student of history you certainly seem to have an amazing lack of being able to grasp the concepts of detail and timelines.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 04:22 AM

"3: Think that we have shown that Salazar was NOT a fascist in any sense of the word"

Amazing if you consider that was "Opposed to democracy, communism, socialism, anarchism and liberalism" (wiki) and that "Salazar used heavy-handed censorship and a ubiquitous secret police to quell opposition, especially that related to the Communist movement" (again Wiki) together with "Salazar relied on secret police to enforce the policies he wished to implement" (Once again Wiki)

No, not a fascist in any sense of the word!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 05:28 AM

Be careful who you defend, Teribus. That kind of thing defines you, and you use it yourself to define your perceived adversaries here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:11 AM

Why so confrontational in view Shaw?

Who is "defending" anyone?

Certain statements were made by our self-proclaimed keen student of history that I disagree with in relation to their accuracy.

Perhaps you, Shaw could, elaborate and tell me where my observations are at fault.

What was Eamon de Valera's contribution to the fight against "fascism" during the Second World War? I can tell you (Already have) Salazar and Portugal's.

In other recent threads Jim Carroll has strenuously defended Stalin, his reputation and his record.

Salazar imprisoned fascists in Portugal from 1933 onward and prevented the rise of "national socialism" in Portugal. Hardly what you would expect from someone Raggy and Carroll describe as being a fascist.

At what point in either of their political careers was Augusto Pinochet the mentor of Margaret Thatcher? - That is what Carroll claimed wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:19 AM

" But he is a hero of yours, one of the "men of the gun" from 1916 "
I suppose somebody who refuses to back anything up with evidence can say what they please about anything so I won't bother erquesting yu to produce a single statement of mine praising Dev
The "men with the guns were the same ar those who took up arms against the various predatory Empires and eventually kicked their areses back to where they belonged" India, Cyprus, Kenya..... whichever till Britain had its grubby little hand
Dev was never one of those - he was always happy to let others do the dirty work - Collins being a cse in point.
"you were so proud about being photographed under? "
Same as point one - you
won't produce my sayin I was "proud" of any such thing - I stated the facts about the photograph to illustrate how Stalin was regarded by Britain as a whole
When did you become divorced from reality anf honesty, or where you never married to it?
"Think that we have shown that Salazar was NOT a fascist in any sense of the word."
Wki entry
After the Portuguese coup d'état of 28 May 1926, Salazar entered public life with the support of President Óscar Carmona, initially as finance minister and later as prime minister. Opposed to democracy, communism, socialism, anarchism and liberalism, the ideology of Portugal was conservative and nationalist in nature under his rule. Salazar also promoted Catholicism, but argued that the role of the Church was social, not political, and negotiated the Concordat of 1940. One of the mottos of the Salazar regime was "Deus, Pátria e Familia" (meaning "God, Fatherland, and Family").[1]
"What proof is there that Margaret Thatcher even knew Augusto Pinochet in 1973? "
Who on earth said she did ?
"By Julie Hyland
9 October 1999
The highlight of the past week's Conservative Party conference was a packed meeting on Wednesday evening addressed by former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, entitled "General Pinochet: the only political prisoner in Britain".
In a hall bedecked with Chilean flags, Thatcher was flanked by two Chilean senators, former chancellor Norman Lamont and Pinochet's son, Marco Antonio. Met by rapturous applause, she decried the extradition proceedings against the former dictator as "international lynch law", "judicial kidnap" and the equivalent of a "police state".
The case against Pinochet was a "Marxist" plot, Thatcher claimed. "The left can't forgive" Pinochet for defeating communism and successfully transforming Chile into a model free market economy, she continued, and were taking revenge on one of “Britain's greatest friends”.
Thatcher had not addressed a Tory Party conference for nine years. That she used the occasion to make such an outspoken defence of a fascist dictator epitomised the lurch to the right witnessed throughout the conference. On every front, Thatcher loyalists dominated proceedings and advanced policies that went further than those implemented by her government, prior to her fall from leadership in 1990."
That's my good deef for the day
I'm off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:41 AM

Hmmmmmmmm If it looks like fascism, tastes like fascism and smells like fascism I guess some people will still not consider it fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:55 AM

Hmmmmmmmmmm ......... Raggy what may look like fascism to you and your rather deranged pal Carroll may well be nothing of the sort:

Franco's Spain - "Communists and left-wing critics called his regime "fascist", but academics typically categorize it as conservative and authoritarian." - I'll go with the historian's, biographers and academics.

Salazar's Portugal - "Salazar founded and led the Estado Novo ("New State"), the corporatist authoritarian government that ruled Portugal until 1974."

Whatever Salazar's Government was it was obviously a damned sight better than what had preceded it since 1910 as borne out by the " general consensus that Salazar was one of the most influential figures in Portuguese history." Salazar took a country renown for inefficiency, corruption and indebtedness, that had been in chaos for decades and transformed it into the orderly, prosperous and well-managed country that it later became. Once again I will go with recorded fact and the better informed opinions of historians, biographers and academics.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:59 AM

Of course you will "Communists and left-wing critics" are not to be trusted are they .............

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:03 AM

Were we to have a popularity contest would ever Blessed Maggie win or Bliar Blair?

Her Majesty's evil little helper.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:04 AM

FRANCOS "CONSERVATISM"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:08 AM

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-spanish-holocaust-inquisition-and-extermination-in-twentieth-century-spain-by-paul-preston-7468500.html
MORE

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM

Much as I do not like Tony Blair, it needs to be pointed out that this agreement came into place 3 years AFTER he resigned as both Prime Minister and Leader of the Labour Party. Bit of a none story really.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:26 AM

Raggytash. Does a leopard change his spots? It is merely his career progression.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 09:40 AM

My God. Who's the next fascist dictator you're going to defend, Teribus? Does his surname begin with H?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 11:30 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 09:40 AM

My God. Who's the next fascist dictator you're going to defend, Teribus? Does his surname begin with H?

Guessing that by 'H' you mean Hitler. You forfeit!

there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned Adolf Hitler has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.[7] This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law

From Here

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 11:52 AM

Not applicable in this instance, unfortunately. We are in a conversation about fascist dictators. Bringing Hitler's name into that is hardly gratuitous. Anyway, how do you know I didn't mean Habyarimana or Hussein? ??

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 12:08 PM

Give me the name of a fascist dictator that I have defended, might make a good start Shaw before progressing to asking which one will be the next one.

Of the two leaders I have mentioned and gone into in detail opinion varies Franco in Spain sought the help of the Nazis in Germany and the Fascists in Italy in order to defeat the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War. He remained neutral during the Second World War but leant towards the Axis more than likely because he felt obliged to do so for past favours rendered - doesn't mean that he himself was a fascist. The similarities between the regimes of Nazi Germany and the U.S.S.R are so slight that you couldn't slide a cigarette paper between them - does that make them both "fascist"? His government is most accurately described as being "conservative and authoritarian".

Salazar in Portugal remained neutral throughout the Second World War but managed to help the Allies in the most important battle of the war. He jailed and suppressed those he believed to be genuine fascists and found the German form of national socialism particularly abhorrent. So what form of fascist was he Shaw? - Salazar's government is most accurately described as being "corporatist authoritarian".

Not my labels, but those of academics and scholars who know a damned sight more about it than either you, or I.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 12:34 PM

But while you are in the mood to explain things Shaw - what about this one that you conveniently ducked:

At what point in either of their political careers was Augusto Pinochet the mentor of Margaret Thatcher? - That is what Carroll claimed wasn't it?

Yar tis so as there's no doubt:

"I have no more time for Dev than I have for any of this lot - but at least they backed away from Stalin when they found what he was while good old Britain remained friends with Salazar, who, maybe not so coincidentally, was still around whien Madd Maggie's mentor was butchering, raping and torturing his way through the Chilean young people in SANTIAGO STADIUM" - Jim Carroll

I find it difficult to believe that it slipped your mind after all you found it such a "beautiful piece Jim" - pity it's all a load of bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:39 PM

It is a puzzle as to why Steve Shaw should be asked to justify something posted by Jim Carroll, especially when one considers the person asking the question.

Just my opinion of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:51 PM

Primarily Raggy, because I know that Jom is not going to answer, or clarify his idiotic assertion and as Shaw thought it was so beautiful I took it that he must know when it was that Augusto Pinochet was Margaret Thatcher's mentor. Turns out he doesn't, neither I dare say do you because we all know, like most of Jom's strident assertions - it was a load of bollocks - I am merely pointing that out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:23 PM

It was a lovely piece, devoid of bitterness, with human scale, about the Estadio Nacional in Santiago where the massacre took place in 1973. I said nothing about Thatcher or Pinochet in that post. You really are a twisted, bitter, sniping, negative, charmless, problem poster, aren’t you, Bill “Teribus” Woodcock?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 01:34 AM

That so called "BEAUTIFUL PIECE" also happened to be devoid of truth or fact Shaw. I know YOU didn't mention Pinochet or Thatcher, but Jom did in a totally misrepresentative way that you and your pals do not seem to have any problem with, yet you all seem to get rather "arsey" when it is pointed out - Bill "Teribus" Woodcock eh? Waz-up "teach" getting upset because the discussion is not going your way - AGAIN - I take it now that the effort to get this thread closed will go into overdrive, as you and your pals have done so often in the past.

So can we now all take it that, due to your lack of response and a total lack of any supporting, substantive, evidence to back up Carroll's deranged claims, at no time at all was Pinochet ever Thatcher's mentor.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 04:27 AM

I don’t ask YOU to defend everything that Keith, Iains, akenaton, Stanron, Nigel or robocop say, do I?   I’m getting a bit worried about you, mate, what with this and your inability to recognise a fascist at zero paces...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 04:43 AM

In terms of getting threads closed I would think a "problem poster" is a bigger menace than those who haven't been publicly rebuked.

Just my two pennies worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

As a mental midget that does not know his place, I certainly do not require or expect backup to support my arguments .Meanwhile a happy toon for the pack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rblYSKz_VnI

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:19 AM

Aw Raggywhen it comes to being publicly rebuked you should look at the number of times your pals have been admonished

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM

"As a mental midget that does not know his place, I certainly do not require or expect backup to support my arguments."

Intriguing. Is this a classic example of a dangling modifier or is it a man lamenting his own mental deficiencies?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:54 AM

I am not aware of any other poster being rebuked publicly you alone enjoy that particular "accolade" in fact you seem to revel in it.

No doubt if others have been so rebuked you will inform us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 10:35 AM

The only problem I can see with Teribus' posts is that they consistently refute made-up-shit and ideological claptrap with facts. It seems that there are some who are unable to handle that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 11:24 AM

You mean like the facts that Salazar, Pinochet and Franco weren't fascist dictators? Those kinds of facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM

Ehmmmmmm ...... Shaw where and how did Pinochet get put in the mix in the detailed discussions relating to Franco and Salazar? Or is that just a deliberate misrepresentation on your part. Pinochet it appears was part of a Military Junta, not political in any way, bit difficult to be a fascist without political backing isn't it? Both Mussolini and Hitler were the founders and leaders of their respective political parties founded on national socialist principles and it was through those parties that they gained power Mussolini by threatening a coup (The March on Rome) and Hitler by using the electoral process in place in Germany at the time.

Still no answer as to when Pinochet was Margaret Thatcher's mentor? Still can't bring yourself to confirm that that little assertion, apologies, beautiful assertion of Jom's was just more "Made-Up-Shit" and complete and utter bollocks to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:30 PM

You do not get to ask me to justify what someone else has said. I'm really not interested in doing that. The rest of your post is just fluff. You think that three people universally regarded as fascists, except by fellow fascists, are not fascists. Weird.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:45 PM

"three people universally regarded as fascists"

"Universally regarded"?? Where on earth did you get that clap-trap from Shaw? Or do you mean universally regarded as fascists by Steve Shaw? - Fortunately what you regard as being what doesn't really amount to a pile of beans. I mean you regard Jeremy Corbyn and Momentum controlled Labour as suitable material for Prime Minister and next Government of the UK respectively - it is more generally accepted that that is complete and utter bollocks - fair indication of how "spot-on" what you regard things as being.

Franco's government in Spain was a military dictatorship that came to power with the help of two leaders who WERE fascists. Doesn't make Franco a fascist.

Salazar's government in Portugal jailed fascists as enemies of the state and did everything it could to suppress national socialism (Fascism) in Portugal - Not really typical "fascist" behaviour is it?

Pinochet was part of a Military Junta and completely non-political.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 05:48 PM

You really are not of this world any more, are you? Heheh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 05:57 PM

"You really are not of this world any more, are you? Heheh"

What a brilliant, and insightful response, I think this guy must have been a headmaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 06:07 PM

Well what response is even remotely possible to a bloke who says that El Caudillo wasn’t a fascist?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 02:43 AM

In your opinion Shaw, most likely in the opinion of ideologically driven socialists and communists, but NOT in the opinion of political historians and academics who have studied the man, his times and the period. NOT in the opinion of the Church or the followers of the Roman Catholic religion (I'd imagine that that was quite a number in a country like Spain). Two sides fought the Spanish Civil War - the Republicans (Leftist; Communist; anti-church) and the Nationalists (Conservative; Monarchist; Catholic Church). Although Franco's main foreign allies were fascist (Italy) and national socialist (Germany) the Falange in Spain was national syndicalist, the three should not be confused as being the same thing. As with most things in the real world Shaw this is a great deal more complex than your simplistic political ideology can cope with. I'll go with the experts who have studied the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:25 PM

You need help. Seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:37 PM

Oh I don't think so Shaw - as far as topics historical go, you just need a bit of schooling - this time actually do some work and listen, leaving your socialist ideology at the door before you start.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:02 PM

pinochet non-political? that is weird . so why would he and the americans object to the leftist allende government? why do the americans object to any positive system in the americas and globally? dictators - fascist or not- are ok as long as they trade with the neo liberal americans.....actually i can't be arsed to go on. shock doctrine/ smash the state/ chicago boys ultra right wing capitalist ideology started with pinochet and onto reagan and thatcher and so on to the death throes of that sick and depressing system we see today.

but that isn't why i came on here.....brexit? not going to happen is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:10 PM

No, seriously. You do need help. It's been obvious for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:14 PM

But let us study the march of Carroll aided and abetted by Shaw and his pals:

1: It started with Shaw wondering how the good people of would view him and his Euros once the UK leaves the EU. My opinion was that he, and his Euros would as welcome as they were before (Mind you if Corbyn gets into No.10 the pound will tank so much that if Shaw drags himself to Madeira he'll hardly have any Euros at all - he could give lectures on "flocking grouse")

2: I mentioned that the Anglo-Portuguese alliance was the oldest treaty in existence which prompted Carroll into a rant about Salazar being a fascist. That led to the revelation that Salazar actually jailed fascists in Portugal so all of a sudden Salazar was dropped and Franco and Pinochet appeared on the scene.

3: We were then all astounded to here that Augusto Pinochet was the mentor of Margaret Thatcher would you believe (I didn't and don't) But neither Carroll, Shaw or any of the other "usual suspects" could pinpoint at what time this mentoring commenced. After repeatedly failing to provide that information Pinochet rather embarrassingly dropped out of the equation, much like Salazar - So now we are left with Franco and fortunately it would appear that Shaw is running out of steam on that one as well.

Fransico Franco: A conservative and a monarchist, he opposed the abolition of the monarchy and the establishment of a socialist secular republic in 1931. Franco won the Spanish Civil War that started in 1936 as a result of a failed coup by the military and from 1939 he pursued a policy of neutrality and isolationism. He established a military dictatorship, which he defined as a totalitarian state. Communists and left-wing critics called his regime "fascist", but academics typically categorize it as conservative and authoritarian. The regime changed its policies in the mid 1950s and due to those changes Spain became the second-fastest growing economy in the world between 1959 and 1973, just behind Japan. This broadly based economic boom was known as "The Spanish Miracle". During the 1960s, the wealthy classes of Francoist Spain experienced further increases in wealth, particularly those who remained politically faithful, while a burgeoning middle class became visible as the "economic miracle" progressed. International firms established factories in Spain, State-owned firms like the car manufacturer SEAT, truck builder Pegaso and oil refiner INH, massively expanded production. By the time of Franco's death in 1975, Spain still lagged behind most of Western Europe but the gap between its per capita GDP and that of the leading Western European countries had narrowed greatly, and the country had developed a large industrialised economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM

From: peteaberdeen - PM
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:02 PM
but that isn't why i came on here.....brexit? not going to happen is it?

If it doesn't happen it is the biggest failure of democracy in the UK.

You may not want Brexit, but I, and the majority of those who were prepared to vote, do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM

Probably not, Pete. We live in hope. By the way, whilst I know that wars are dirty,
perhaps Bill should look up how many deaths Franco was responsible for in the six years AFTER the end of the Civil War. While he's at it, he could look at the manner of those deaths. Make sure you consult the right experts, Bill. When you've done the exercise, perhaps you would come back and tell us whether you still think that Franco wasn't a fascist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM

as far as the pinochet being thatcher's 'mentor' thing goes....as i understand it (mostly from naomi klein's 'shock doctrine' ) milton friedman and the 'chicago school of economics came up with the idea of 'disaster capitalism' where ruthless tactics were to be employed to 'repair' 'damage' done in countries such as chile that had tried to institute progressive change and a more egalitarian, state control based society. (just think of the damage being done to destabilise and run down our NHS these days - so that the 'only' answer is more privatisation) anyway, the shock doctrine was first used by pinochet with covert assistance from the CIA and then a strict crackdown on any dissent and the implementation of a fundamentalist monetarist regime. while pinochet may not, strictly speaking, have been a 'mentor' to thatcher and reagan they wholeheartedly bought into the sort of tactics used in chile to destabilise a progressive state, privatise and confront unions and other groups interested in equality, liberalism (in the old fashioned sense) or socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:32 PM

brexit is not going to happen because there is hardly anyone worth listening to in parliament with the interest, ability or application to take the shaky concept forward. many are opposed and most of the rest are ambivalent. i'd say that apart from a sizable minority of tory backbenchers everyone is embarrassed and just waiting for the thing to die a slow death before someone has the guts to apologise to our european friends and we can all get back to proper business instead of obsessing about something that no-one really understands.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:37 PM

brexit? not going to happen is it?

Wanna bet?

Anyone seen as trying to prevent Brexit from happening politically will be toast as far as the electorate of the UK is concerned. The way the EU Commissioners and the Germans and the French are posturing it would not surprise me at all if we opt for The "No Deal is better than a Bad Deal" Option In that scenario the EU loses one of it's best customers and the "Divorce Settlement" the EU keeps harping on about is reduced to zero. If they then wish to pile tariffs on our goods, we pile tariff's on theirs as they sell more to us we profit from their short-sightedness, their businesses hurt more than ours as we are free to trade with the world they are not. Meanwhile they have to fund the shortfall created by us leaving, problems in Greece have not gone away, Macron's honeymoon in France is well and truly over, Merkel will be put firmly in the picture by German industry and nobody has got a clue what will happen in Spain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:47 PM

i can't see anyone actively trying to prevent it happening, they will just get bored of the complexity of it. no-one is scared of upsetting the UKIPs anymore. brexit has always been about divisions in the tory party more than anything and now - really, who cares what happens to the tory party? it's funny of course, but is getting very boring too.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:49 PM

I'm with you in sentiment, Pete, though perhaps a tad less optimistic. The easy slogan is that no brexit would result from a democratic sellout. I know it isn't like that. But easy slogans ("take back control") have a habit of winning the day. I have a nasty feeling that we may have to rely on cockup after cockup by the shower that's running our show and who the EU is laughing at daily. Mind you, that's quite likely...

Pinochet regime? Democracy overthrown, thousands killed, thousands disappeared, hundreds of thousands exiled, no dissidence tolerated. So not a fascist then. Just a bit of a conservative chappie really...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:50 PM

Brexit itself is the biggest 'failure of democracy' in the UK's political history.

A fatally flawed referendum which...

a) required only a simple majority, rather than the standard 60/40 usually required in 'once-and-for-all' referendums of this kind,

b) was only 'advisory' - clearly stated in the Referendum Bill and its supporting documentation - but treated as 'compulsory.

c) was campaigned by the 'Leave' team on the basis of bare-faced lies (£350 million a week for the NHS (there isn't and won't be), stop immigration (we can't),'Take Back Control' which we never gave up, yadda yadda).

The one and only reason the government are driving us over the precipice of a Hard Brexit, with no agreement in place, is so that a small cabal of immensely wealthy Tories and Tory Party donors (who, in fact, control Tory policy, despite several of them not even being British, or resident here) can avoid being subject to the new EU Tax-Avoidance/Evasion Regulations which come into force in May 2019.

And, as always, it'll be the ordinary people who will suffer the consequences, whilst the rich get even richer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:52 PM

Excellent resume of the current situation and outlook for the future Teribus. T agree 100% and would be delighted to see our negotiators pull out completely
The "running in" period is quite unnecessary and a sop to the obstructionists.

"Walk away Renee"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:30 PM

Good heavens Shaw!!!! Just looked!!!! And the similarities between what Franco did to secure his regime and country against reactionary counter-revolution and what Lenin and Stalin did are amazing!!! Does that make him a Communist???

We have the Parliamentary democracy we enjoy today because of actions taken by Oliver Cromwell who ruled as a complete and utter despot - yet he is known as the "Father of British Democracy" that is why his statue stands outside the House of Commons, while the statues of other notables stand in Parliament Square.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:38 PM

Backwardsman, I believe that Cameron gave the solemn undertaking that he and his government would abide by and act in accordance with the wishes of the electorate with regard to the EU referendum - that made it binding.

ALL the major political parties WITHOUT EXCEPTION campaigned for the REMAIN side. ALL thought that there was not the remotest chance on earth that LEAVE would prove to be the majority vote. They were wrong.

I will say this for you - you have perfect 20x20 hindsight.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:17 PM

I don't claim 20-20 hindsight, and certainly far less than that when predicting the future, but this dream of all sorts of beneficial deals with the rest of the world seems very unlikely to me. Some runes people might like to consider are things like these Financial Times articles of October 5, 2017:

* Trump opposes EU-UK agri-deal in blow to Brexit plans
* Tariffs and energetic protection of US trade is the American way

(The second article makes the point that it is not just Trump who thinks this way)

The Financial Times runs a paywall scheme, so I can't simply link to the articles, but the titles are clear enough, and if you are interested enough I am sure you can find a physical copy or join for a modest fee.

Back in July when Trump said he saw a great trade deal with Britain, he did not necessarily mean we would like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:23 PM

Wrong again, Terriblyboring. The briefing paper on the Bill states quite clearly that the result will be advisory only. It is not within the PM's power to amend it unilaterally, it requires Parliamentary approval.

Cameron took it upon himself to ignore those provisions. The High Court ruled in November that a referendum can only ever be advisory. Therefore it was never within Cameron's (or May's) power to declare it binding. They chose to accept the result, they were not bound by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:27 PM

I think the dream of the Brexiteers of getting 'great trade deals' with the US has been dealt a serious blow by the imposition of a 300% tariff on the aircraft which Delta were to purchase from Bombardier in NI, applied for by Boeing, who don't even build the class of aircraft that Delta ordered from Bombardier.

The Shape of Things to Come.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 06:30 PM

Great analysis, John, especially in your 03.50 pm post. The chickens are truly coming home to roost now that May and her sorry team have shown themselves to be thoroughly incompetent and are, in consequence, the laughing stock of the whole EU. Be very afraid. We're stuffed.

Billybully boy, I'm totally not interested in your yah-boo schoolyard comparisons between known fascists such as Franco and Pinochet and Stalin/Lenin (for whom I have no time whatsoever). That's your attempt to fudge. Look at Franco and Pinochet on their own terms. Both murderous authoritarians (have you looked at those numbers yet?) who brooked no opposition. The epitome of fascism. Whatever Stalin/Lenin got up to does not impact on that at all. You don't get to justify atrocities merely by highlighting someone else's. You don't let off little Jimmy for stealing little Maisie's crisps just because little Johnny looked up little Amy's skirt.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 02:00 AM

A but Shaw the point you are missing is that the following were all leaders of the political parties that they used to propelled them to the positions of power they held:

Lenin
Stalin
Mussolini
Hitler

The same cannot be said of:

Oliver Cromwell
Salazar
Franco
Pinochet

They all did what they thought they had to do to secure and save their countries from what they saw as an internal threat, only the ones detailed in the first group felt the need to export their violence and ideals outside of their own borders.

On the EU referendum Backwardsman:

Gordon Brown made a promise to the electorate of the UK regarding a referendum on the EU and reneged on it.

David Cameron made a promise to the electorate of the UK regarding a referendum on the EU and honoured it.

Of the two I prefer by far the type of politicians who honour their promises to the electorate while in power - there is a basic honesty and integrity demonstrated in doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 03:21 AM

I know threads go where they will, but all this is a long way from Post Brexit life in the UK. Talking about the past is easier, even if opinions differ, but it can be a way of avoiding talking about the future, which is after the point of this thread. So let's some comments about the future: who will be the Conservative leader in six months time? How will that affect Post Brexit life, if at all? Is the US position on the aeroplanes and agribusiness a one off or will they take advantage of the UK? Let's have some solid predictions that we can look at a year after separation where we can say whether they were right or wrong. The vaguaries of Nostrodamus are unsuitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 03:21 AM

Hmmm, a standard response from Pte. Parts - present him with accurate facts in the face of his nonsensical bluster, and he starts moving the goalposts around in a vain effort to 'win'.

Sorry, squaddie - in the immortal words of your dopey mate from Hertford, "You lose".

Now fuck off and Blanco your puttees, or paint the coal white, or whatever they give thick squaddies to fill their time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 03:57 AM

See your contribution is down at your consistent and dismally low level Backwardsman. What bluster? Please point it out. You won't because everything I have contributed to this thread, every detail I have given has been factually correct. The "fact" that you cannot challenge or refute anything I have said is your problem not mine and I guess that you will have to live with that, absolutely no skin off my nose at all. If you wish to demonstrate to the world and it's dog that you are an ill-informed, offensive, inarticulate oaf please feel free. You are only letting yourself down.

Addressing DmcG's post re - comments about the future:

1: "who will be the Conservative leader in six months time?"

Unless the Parliamentary Conservative Party want to be out of office in quick time the leader of the Conservative Party in six months time will be Theresa May. But strictly according to the comments you requested in six months time we will still be in the EU.

2: "How will that affect Post Brexit life, if at all?"

Not one iota.

3: "Is the US position on the aeroplanes and agribusiness a one off or will they take advantage of the UK?"

Definitely one offs and even they are not cast in stone. Things change all the time. They will take advantage of us just as much as we will take advantage of them, that is the nature of ANY trading agreement. One thing though that is certain Post-Brexit - The UK will manage to negotiate a trade deal with ANY country quicker than the 27 remaining countries of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:02 AM

If you say the referendum result was only advisory, then what do you think the outcome would have been had it been ignored? Do you not think a Catalonian outcome on steroids might have been an expected outcome?
What is the point of a democratic vote if the result is ignored, or is democracy for the remainders different to that of the leavers.
The post above is a typical example of remainders having run out of any kind of rational argument-so once again go all out to have the thread cancelled.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:14 AM

. They will take advantage of us just as much as we will take advantage of them, that is the nature of ANY trading agreement. 

I would put it differently: They will take ATTEMPT to advantage of us just as much as we will ATTEMPT to take advantage of them

Which of you succeeds is down to your relative strength. So one side could be on the losing side most of the time. It is not a case of it all balancing out in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:22 AM

Be afraid Brexiteers, be very afraid.


This lady is not for turning?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM

No Iains, I don't say the referendum was advisory, the Referendum Bill itself says it was advisory only, and this was ratified by the High Court judgment in November.

Unfortunately, although anyone who cared to actually read the Bill would have been aware of it, it was not made clear to the electorate that it was 'advisory only', and the problem was compounded when the idiot Cameron made a promise which was not within his power to make. No politician, even the PM, can override a Bill passed by Parliament - sovereignty rests with Parliament, not with the PM.

Had the advisory nature of the Referendum been made absolutely clear prior to the vote, and given the tiny majority in the result - not far from a dead-heat - I can see no reason why there should have been a 'Catalonian outcome on steroids'.

And, of course, the terms of the referendum were seriously flawed. Had the idiot Cameron couched the Referendum Bill in the standard terms of reference for a referendum in the UK - i.e. requiring a 60/40 majority rather than a simple majority - the result would have been a victory for the Remain campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:46 AM

ROTFLMAO! I missed that last one, Pte Parts.

So, having been presented with facts which, as usual, you fail to respond properly to, and moving the goalposts and being called out on that piece of deceit, you now try to play the victim in a vain effort to secure the high moral ground.

I don't need to say any more - everyone on this forum knows you, they know your MO, they know you for what you are.

I quote your henchman again..."You lose".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:09 PM

I'd love to know what facts I was presented with Backwardsman - I have re-read the posts and the only thing I was presented with were opinions.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to which of those opinions you regard as being facts. I know that you will not do this, you and your pals never, ever back up the ludicrous statements that you tend to make.

Please don't say the fact that the referendum wasn't binding - Had ANYBODY in the political establishment of the UK in any of the MAJOR Parties ignored the result of the EU Referendum there would have been an uproar that would have wakened the dead and that Party would have ceased to exist at the very next election - every politician in the UK has acknowledged that as being the case which Is why the triggering of Article 50, and everything to do with Brexit has gone through Parliament as easily as it has. Get used to it Backwards - we are leaving the EU.

Pte Parts, how droll how long did it take you come up with that one? Oh of course, it's not yours at all is it, probably copied from someone else, who does have an original thought in their head. Way off target in any case Backwards - I was never in the Army and I was never a Squaddie.

As for moving goalposts? That was your pals Shaw and Carroll, but it didn't do them any good. What piece of deceit are you referring to?

DMcG - 08 Oct 17 - 04:14 AM - I'd tend to agree, more or less, but nothing is that clear cut and the process is one of flexible give and take as time goes by. Doesn't alter the truth of the point that the UK will ratify international trade agreements far quicker than the 27 member state EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:17 PM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM
No Iains, I don't say the referendum was advisory, the Referendum Bill itself says it was advisory only, and this was ratified by the High Court judgment in November.

Not quite. The high court made clear that the referendum was only advisory as the Act setting it up did not state that it would be legally binding. Although the lack of such a statement meant that the referendum was not legally binding, that does not match up with your claim that the Referendum Bill itself says it was advisory only

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM

Doesn't alter the truth of the point that the UK will ratify international trade agreements far quicker than the 27 member state EU.

Since it is a single voice rather than 27, almost certainly that's right. But a poor agreement entered into quickly is not as good as a better one entered into slowly. So I would say negotiating strength is more important than speed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:44 PM

How an we negotiate terms with people who have no wish to negotiate?
The rules of the EU are set in stone and it was always going to be the case that we leave unilaterally or sell out the people who voted to leave and won the referendum.
Not only do the EU not want to negotiate in a meaningful way beneficial to both parties, but they simply cannot allow us to leave with a reasonable deal.
The UK will never countenance any return to "Free movement" and that policy is integral to the survival of the EU.

We will have no option after the posturing, other to walk away into a better and more democratic future.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:04 PM

We are either shackled to a very "protectionist" trading block consisting of 27 countries with an extremely sluggish economy where we buy more from them than they do from us. Or we trade with the rest of the world, where in certain areas their growth rates far exceed the EU.

Switzerland and Singapore have concluded more foreign trade deals in the past three decades than the EU. You seem to approach this as though all was well within the EU - nothing could be further from the truth. Why do you automatically assume any deal we make will be bad? Doesn't make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:23 PM

Why do you automatically assume any deal we make will be bad? Doesn't make sense.

I don't. But nor do I assume a deal will automatically be good. And the little evidence we have so far is not encouraging.   One of the Financial Times articles I referred to was also published in the Irish Times (which rather makes a mess of their paywall ideas, but that's not my problem). Here is an extract:

"But the US joined other major agricultural exporters including Argentina, Brazil and New Zealand in signing a letter sent last week to the EU and UK’s WTO ambassadors objecting to the plan to split the quotas that cover everything from New Zealand butter and lamb to US poultry and wheat."

So it is not just the US who will be twisting arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:38 PM

Our economic growth and our productivity is a damn sight more sluggish than the main players in tbe EU and we haven’t even started yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 07:36 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:38 PM
Our economic growth and our productivity is a damn sight more sluggish than the main players in tbe EU and we haven’t even started yet.

A totally crap comment.
"We haven't started yet."
What is it you claim we haven't started?
We haven't started productivity?
We haven't started 'growing' our productivity?
We haven't started the process necessary to escape from the EU?

Please, a little clarity in your writing would enable people to have a reasonable discussion. But perhaps that is not what you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 07:52 PM

We haven’t even started on the unstoppable downhill slide into economic oblivion that brexit, if it ever happens, has forced us into. We’re in shit street already, as I explained, but we ain’t seen nuthin’ yet. Hope this helps, Nigel. If you apply in writing I’d be quite happy to provide my views in words not exceeding one syllable. I do know how hard it is for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 02:43 AM

Shaw - "Hope this helps, Nigel. If you apply in writing I’d be quite happy to provide my views in words not exceeding one syllable. I do know how hard it is for you." - In case it has escaped your notice so far, on numerous threads Nigel Parsons has been running circles round you and your views. Best buck up lad, you are so far astern in his wake it is becoming embarrassing for you and your chums.

Britain's economic performance is slower than the EU's ? Depending on what time frame?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 04:00 AM

"Our economic growth and our productivity is a damn sight more sluggish than the main players in tbe EU and we haven’t even started yet."

By any metric the UK ranks in the first three economies in the EU. How can we be more sluggish in our growth and productivity than ourselves?
Try gargling with cheap plonk instead of swallowing by the case load shaw. It may help you remain lucid!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 04:12 AM

this may be a slight post drift but i was reading this morning about army recruits being at least 18. seems obvious enough but why not think radically - army recruits should be at least 60 year old and paid a proper wage instead of having to rely on a pension. generally, young people are more inclined to get on with many people from abroad and like the opportunities that a more integrated europe (and the world) offers - it seems cruel to be encouraging them to fight their friends. this would also solve the problem of old folk feeling lonely and lacking purpose - so many these days have nowt better to do than bicker and insult each other online.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 04:34 AM

Leave the armed forces out of it, peteaberdeen, and there is perhaps more merit in that idea than first appears. Isolation and lack of a sense of purpose is indeed a serious issue for many who are retired.

But that's for another thread, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:14 AM

...UK economy was the weakest in Europe in the first quarter of 2017. The UK’s large Continental peers – Germany, France – grew by 0.6 per cent and 0.4 per cent respectively. Britain’s 0.2 per cent expansion in the three months to March put it at the bottom of the EU league table. The UK had the lowest GDP growth rate in the European Union in the first quarter of 2017, according to the European statistics agency Eurostat.

Britain’s 0.2 per cent expansion in the three months to March, down sharply from the 0.7 per cent growth in the final quarter of 2016, put it at the bottom of the EU league table.

The UK’s large Continental peers – Germany, France – grew by 0.6 per cent and 0.4 per cent respectively. Reports last week suggested Italy’s economy had grown by 0.2 per cent in the first quarter – equal to the UK. But Eurostat now puts Italy’s growth at 0.4 per cent. Even Greece, which has endured years of depression, grew faster than the UK, with its economy expanding by 0.4 per cent.

Data is not yet available for Malta, Luxembourg and Ireland, but given those economies grew at a quarterly rate of 1.7 per cent, 1.3 per cent and 2.5 per cent respectively in the final quarter of 2016 it would take a remarkable collapse for them to come below the UK. (Independent, June 7 2017)

According to Expert Market, which looked at the productivity of the 35 biggest economies, the UK came in at 16th, below every major EU economy except for Spain and Italy.(Independent, July 16 2016), way below Sweden, Ireland, Germany, France, Denmark, the Netherlands, Finland and Austria.

But sez Iains, (clearly blinded by his obsessive need to hurl insults), "By any metric the UK ranks in the first three economies in the EU. How can we be more sluggish in our growth and productivity than ourselves?"

Ah, those damned facts, Iains, always getting in the way, aren't they? What "metric" were you using? The length of bananas or the straightness of cucumbers by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:24 AM

We haven’t even started on the unstoppable downhill slide into economic oblivion that brexit, if it ever happens, has forced us into.
That is clearly your personal opinion. You do not see this country as being capable of dealing with the future, possible, consequences. A lovely mixture of tenses there. I assume you meant “will have forced us into” as you are writing about possible future consequences.

We’re in shit street already, as I explained, but we ain’t seen nuthin’ yet.
You have explained no such thing. You have just propounded your own personal view, with no reasonable explanation given.

Hope this helps, Nigel. If you apply in writing I’d be quite happy to provide my views in words not exceeding one syllable. I do know how hard it is for you.
Feel free to write monosyllabically. It may help your comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:41 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:45 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:14 AM
...UK economy was the weakest in Europe in the first quarter of 2017. The UK’s large Continental peers – Germany, France – grew by 0.6 per cent and 0.4 per cent respectively. Britain’s 0.2 per cent expansion in the three months to March put it at the bottom of the EU league table. The UK had the lowest GDP growth rate in the European Union in the first quarter of 2017, according to the European statistics agency Eurostat.
A selective set of stats, as it only covers a 3 month period, which may not be representative.

The Guardian also gives these figures, but goes on to state:
However, in year-on-year terms the UK was closer to the EU performance and ahead of the 19-nation eurozone. After a strong second half to 2016, when the economy defied predictions of a post-referendum slump, UK GDP was still 2% bigger in the first quarter of 2017 than a year earlier. The EU’s economy was 2.1% bigger on the year while the eurozone was up 1.9%.

And before I get cited as also using selective statements, The Guardian does go on to predict lower figures for UK for 2017/2018.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:52 AM

Read my last post, study the predictions then come back and explain to the thread how we're not up shit creek sans paddle, Nigel. It's been my opinion since the referendum was announced and it's coming true, even though we're nowhere near the dreaded March 2019 date yet. Productivity in the doldrums, weak growth, a collapsing pound leading to inflation and a consequent drop in living standards, food banks more popular than ever, NHS up the Swanee, the country rudderless in the hands of a feckless, inept laughing stock. Apart from that, hunkydory, eh, Nigel? Of course these things are all just opinions. We know that bad things are just round the corner; we just don't know yet how bad. Your head's in the sand, Nigel. Maybe you're scrabbling around bitterly down there to find some more grammatical inelegances with which to slap me. Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:54 AM

Not the empty one, though you'll be telling me any minute now that it makes more sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:25 AM

"We know that bad things are just round the corner"
Oh the bells of hell go ting aling aling, for you but not for me........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:44 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:52 AM
Read my last post, study the predictions then come back and explain to the thread how we're not up shit creek sans paddle, Nigel.

I had already read that post, and it is that which I was referring to as being 'selective'.
As for "study the predictions", I've just re-read the post, and can see none. You may wish to clarify what (in the following quote) you consider to have been 'predictions'.
...UK economy was the weakest in Europe in the first quarter of 2017. The UK’s large Continental peers – Germany, France – grew by 0.6 per cent and 0.4 per cent respectively. Britain’s 0.2 per cent expansion in the three months to March put it at the bottom of the EU league table. The UK had the lowest GDP growth rate in the European Union in the first quarter of 2017, according to the European statistics agency Eurostat.

Britain’s 0.2 per cent expansion in the three months to March, down sharply from the 0.7 per cent growth in the final quarter of 2016, put it at the bottom of the EU league table.

The UK’s large Continental peers – Germany, France – grew by 0.6 per cent and 0.4 per cent respectively. Reports last week suggested Italy’s economy had grown by 0.2 per cent in the first quarter – equal to the UK. But Eurostat now puts Italy’s growth at 0.4 per cent. Even Greece, which has endured years of depression, grew faster than the UK, with its economy expanding by 0.4 per cent.

Data is not yet available for Malta, Luxembourg and Ireland, but given those economies grew at a quarterly rate of 1.7 per cent, 1.3 per cent and 2.5 per cent respectively in the final quarter of 2016 it would take a remarkable collapse for them to come below the UK. (Independent, June 7 2017)

According to Expert Market, which looked at the productivity of the 35 biggest economies, the UK came in at 16th, below every major EU economy except for Spain and Italy.(Independent, July 16 2016), way below Sweden, Ireland, Germany, France, Denmark, the Netherlands, Finland and Austria.

But sez Iains, (clearly blinded by his obsessive need to hurl insults), "By any metric the UK ranks in the first three economies in the EU. How can we be more sluggish in our growth and productivity than ourselves?"

Ah, those damned facts, Iains, always getting in the way, aren't they? What "metric" were you using? The length of bananas or the straightness of cucumbers by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:31 AM

Read my last post and study the predictions are separate injunctions. Read the post, which is nowhere near as selective as you claim (unless you'd care to tell me which bits unfavourable to my argument are missing), then read the predictions about the future performance of our economy supplied by other sources not quoted by me. They are out there. Happy to clarify.

Here's one from the IMF (Guardian report, 24 July):

The International Monetary Fund has cut its growth forecast for the UK economy this year after a weak performance in the first three months of 2017.

In its first downgrade for the UK since the EU referendum in June last year, the IMF said it expected the British economy to expand by 1.7% this year, 0.3 points lower than when it last made predictions in April.

The Fund raised its forecasts for the UK after the Brexit vote as a result of the much stronger than envisaged activity in the second half of 2016. In October 2016, it pencilled in growth of 1.1% for 2017, raising this forecast to 1.5% in January this year and to 2% in April.

Maurice Obstfeld, the IMF’s economic counsellor, pointed to a marked change in early 2017. He said the UK’s growth forecast had been lowered based on its “tepid performance” so far this year, adding: “The ultimate impact of Brexit on the United Kingdom remains unclear.”

The IMF left its growth forecast for the UK in 2018 unchanged at 1.5% but said one key risk facing the global economy was that the Brexit talks would end in failure.

It contrasted its gloomier outlook for the UK with a rosier forecast for the rest of the EU, with 2017 growth upgrades for the four biggest eurozone countries – Germany, France, Italy and Spain.

Germany has been revised up by 0.2 points to 1.8%, France by 0.1 points to 1.5%, while Italy and Spain have both been revised up by 0.5 points to 1.3% and 3.1% respectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM

A bit more, Nigel? This stuff is dead easy to find. From July.

LONDON (Reuters) - Britain’s economy is likely to lose momentum in the second half of 2017, according to a closely watched survey that could disappoint some Bank of England officials who want to raise interest rates for the first time in a decade.

Sterling dipped after Wednesday’s Markit/CIPS survey showed growth across British services companies fell to a four-month low in June.

Although the survey suggested the economy recovered some speed in the second quarter and probably expanded at a quarterly pace of around 0.4 percent, double the pace of the weak first quarter, there were some ominous signals in the PMI’s forward-looking gauges.

Business expectations sank to their weakest level since last July’s dip after the vote to leave the European Union, and it was not far off lows last reached in late 2011. Growth in new orders hit a nine-month low.

The headline index edged down to a four-month low of 53.4 in June from 53.8 in May, just shy of a forecast for 53.5 in a Reuters poll of economists.

On Tuesday BoE rate-setter Michael Saunders said he was “reasonably confident” that lower consumer spending will be offset by higher exports and investment, justifying his vote to raise interest rates from a record low 0.25 percent.

“But the latest PMI survey pours some cold water on that hypothesis,” said JPMorgan economist Allan Monks.

“Indeed, it is worth highlighting that the weakness in the UK PMI comes at a time when the broader European PMIs have strengthened considerably.”

The mood among services firms was probably hit by uncertainty after June’s election, in which Prime Minister Theresa May gambled away her parliamentary majority, and by Brexit talks, as well as the economic outlook, IHS Markit said.

A third monthly drop in car sales in June -- albeit from recent record highs -- underlined the slowdown among consumers.

Separate official data showed productivity, arguably Britain’s biggest economic problem over the last decade, fell in the first three months of the year -- the first decline since late 2015.

The latest productivity data further complicates the outlook for BoE policymakers. Although weak productivity reduces the scope for future wage growth, it goes hand-in-hand with higher inflation.

“Unless more is done to tackle the nation’s low productivity, people’s wages and living standards will continue to fall and the UK will be ill-equipped to compete once we do leave the EU,” said Ian Brinkley, acting chief economist at the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:41 AM

I already stated exactly why I believed it to be 'selective':
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:14 AM
...UK economy was the weakest in Europe in the first quarter of 2017. The UK’s large Continental peers – Germany, France – grew by 0.6 per cent and 0.4 per cent respectively. Britain’s 0.2 per cent expansion in the three months to March put it at the bottom of the EU league table. The UK had the lowest GDP growth rate in the European Union in the first quarter of 2017, according to the European statistics agency Eurostat.
A selective set of stats, as it only covers a 3 month period, which may not be representative>/b>.

Your latest posted statistics, which you equate with UK being in 'shit street' show the latest forecasts for growth in the coming year: UK 1.5% Germany 1.8% France 1.5% Italy 1.3% Spain 3.1%
So, well behind Spain (but so are the rest), Slightly behind Germany, level with France and slightly ahead of Italy.
The figures hardly supports your contentions then, do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:53 AM

I posted two lengthy extracts from credible sources (others are available) to support my opinion. Now it's you being selective. Take it or leave it, Nigel. The general picture is that this country is in trouble and that things are likely to get worse. If you can really find a cheery economic forecast, let's be having it. You're being tiresome. Move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:43 AM

The country is not "in trouble", but the negativity spread by the remoaners and their trough licking friends in parliament make negotiation more difficult. The EU side perceive us as divided and therefore weakened.
As I said before we will almost certainly have to walk away from the negotiations and though we will still trade with Europe when they come crawling back, the time scale will be longer in setting up arrangements......and it will be the fault of those who cannot, for reasons of ideology or greed, accept the result of a democratic vote and put their efforts into making our country stronger and more independent.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:46 AM

Spring 2017 economic forecast. Not quite tha same as Shaw's. IN fact the UK looks quite good for 2018.
In terms of the four leading EU economies growth GDP growth %yoy:
             2015   2016    2017    2018

UK          2.2    1.8    1.8    1.3

France       1.3    1.2    1.4    1.7

Germany      1.7    1.9    1.4    1.9

Italy       0.8    0.9    0.9    1.1

Gloom and Doom? Don't think so! From the EU hoss's mouth no less. Nought to do with bent bananas or dodgy cucumbers you stupid boy!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:55 AM

They’re not good news, though, are they, insulter-in-chief? And no comment from you I see about our dismal standing in tbe league tables, with which you can’t argue. What was that you were saying about our being in the first three “by any metric?”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 11:21 AM

“The country is not "in trouble", but the negativity spread by the remoaners and their trough licking friends in parliament make negotiation more difficult. The EU side perceive us as divided and therefore weakened.”

The country is divided because a very divisive referendum campaign, with misrepresentations or downright lies propagated by both sides, yielded a result that was split almost down the middle. It is not undemocratic to try to get a disastrous decision reversed. In fact, that’s what democracy’s all about. Brexit is by no means a done deal and you have no right to keep castigating “remoaners” for exercising their peaceful democratic right to oppose what we think is an impending catastrophe. The other 27, spearheaded by Germany, are not going to be coming back crawling. In fact, and they are increasingly coming to realise this, they could be better off without us, which is why the EU bigwigs are sitting there obstinately giving us nothing. They know they don’t have to. Ever since Maggie’s days we’ve been the pain in the arse standing outside pissing in, getting rebates, not joining the euro or Schengen and demanding all sorts of other exemptions. And, in case you’ve forgotten, we were the sick man of Europe before we joined the EEC and in our first few years of membership, enduring devaluation, a rotten economy, an IMF bailout and the three-day week. We are as strong as we are today not because we are still a mighty global force as the Blimps would like us to believe but because we’ve been a member of the EU. And now the EU is doing a damn sight better than we are “by any metric” and we are increasingly looking like we’re limping behind. And you ain’t seen nothing yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 11:47 AM

And what was the reason for the three day week? Striking coal miners.
Hardly any wonder the magnificent Thatcher broke their back as soon as the opportunity presented itself. Government rules countries, not unions. Clot corbyn has yet to discover this very basic fact of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM

The country is divided because a very divisive referendum campaign, with misrepresentations or downright lies propagated by both sides, yielded a result that was split almost down the middle. It is not undemocratic to try to get a disastrous decision reversed.
No, it’s not. But for the majority, it was not a disastrous decision.

Ever since Maggie’s days we’ve been the pain in the arse standing outside pissing in, getting rebates, not joining the euro or Schengen and demanding all sorts of other exemptions.
Not quite, it was in ‘Maggie’s days’ that we got the rebate agreed.
Since that time Tony Blair conceded part of the rebate in exchange for a promise of a review of the CAP, which was never forthcoming, but the EU retained the benefit of the reduced rebate.

The EU has been taking advantage of UK for almost 50 years. It is hard for them to give that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 11:57 AM

A silly post with little relevance to what we’re discussing. We were seen as the sick man of Europe because of years of poor economic performance involving enforced devaluation and an IMF bailout. Certainly, poor industrial relations were also viewed from afar as contributing to the problems. It takes two sides to have relations and those of us who lived through that were all too aware of Heath’s inept administration. Thanks for all those threshold pay increases though, Ted! With those coupled with the Houghton report my salary doubled in 18 months when the country couldn’t afford it...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:01 PM

That was directed at Iains.

Nigel, you have no point to make about the timing of the rebate. There was nothing inaccurate about my statement. If this kind of nitpicking is really the best you can do it doesn’t say much for your depth of understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:01 PM

Quotes from Steve Shaw:
SS: 1.         As Dubya said, the trouble with the French is that they haven't even got a WORD for "entrepreneur" in their language
2.         I KNOW he didn’t actually say it,

NP: No need to argue with him any more. He’s arguing with himself

SS: I was being whimsical. Anyone normal here would have seen that. Dubya didn’t wave at Stevie Wonder either. It’s what we do to politicians, Nigel. Had I said it about a Saudi king my head and torso would now be in separate rooms. So I love to say stupid things about Dubya because I can. I find it devilishly amusing and I don’t expect anyone to think I’m telling the literal truth. Now move on, Nigel. You’ve flogged it to death. They do that in some non-democracies too. Un-po that long face of yours, otherwise it’ll set that way. I wonder whether that’s true...

NP: You may see me as 'po faced'. And say that you were being whimsical. But you put it forward as a statement (no emoticons, or other signals to suggest that you didn't believe what you were saying).
How many of the 'facts' that you propound in other threads are also your 'whimsy'?
Presumably there is no point disagreeing with you about anything, as once you are proved wrong you'll just say you never really meant it.

I think your credibility is well and truly self-scuppered.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:04 PM

Move on, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:44 PM

This is a sobering insight into what we can expect:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eu-negotiator-europe-euratom-airline-safety-negotiations-theresa-may-worse-anyone-guessed-a7858586.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:23 PM

You have to laugh sometimes. The BBC is reporting Contingency plans in case the UK has to leave the EU with no deal in place are "well under way", a minister has said.

Dominic Raab said while the UK had to "strive for the very best outcome" from Brexit negotiations, it had to "prepare for all eventualities".

Yes, I agree, very sensible. Plan for all eventualities, good idea. Including a possible run on the pound, perhaps? After all, that is something other people decide, not you, so it is only sensible to plan for it...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:28 PM

Whimsical=capricious=given to sudden and unaccountable changes of mood or behaviour.

Oh dear-by his own admission he has totally lost the plot. Time to move in and just ignore the ramblings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:54 PM

DmCG The run on the pound occured immediately after the Referendum vote.

The pound has consistently traded at 10% lower against the Dollar and 15% below against the Euro since the vote.

There are few, if any, signs of it recovering those losses in the near future.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 02:24 PM

True, Raggy, but the reference was to the shock! Horror! when Labour said fairly recently it was one of the things they wargamed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 02:54 PM

given that it is overwhelmingly older people who wish to leave and pursue this aggressive stance towards our friends and neighbours (and common sense) (and maintain trident etc) we really should get them enlisted to the military. and in a long overdue radical change of policy we should only allow women under 30 to decide if we are going to unleash our aging war heroes on some unfortunate (ex-empire?) foe)

any over 60s on here willing to sign up to give young people a break for once?

mind you,during the last election campaign i was talking to some squaddies at a sign up to kill foreigners stall in workington. 'if you vote for jeremy corbyn you won't have to fight so many nasty wars in the desert' - 'i want to fight wars, nastier the better' you can't argue with that i suppose

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:27 PM

I did get your reference, DMcG, and thought it was a great post. Just a touch of whimsy, I know, but be careful who you mention it to. In the immortal words of Basil, I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:47 PM

I remember the last big run in Wilsons time when they tried to sabotage his govt.
Surely you don't want to see a repeat of that for ideological reasons "D"?
These things can be overcome, the future is wide open, we just need to be bold and work together. Negativity and division will only make the final outcome harder to attain and the poorest in society will suffer.
The status quo is no longer available, though almost everyone here has a stake in keeping it.....but we don't represent the "other" Britain, the people left behind by globalisation, the homeless youth, the hopeless estate dwellers, the swathes of our country blighted by drugs and criminality.
I've been a manual worker all my life, I've seen all the facets of this warped society, but most who write here haven't a fucking clue, isolated by an establishment education, they want their kids to have what they had......I know grandfathers,fathers and children who have never had anything....not even hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:54 PM

Brexit wont initiate a run on the pound, but the election of a socialist government certainly would.

Of course it wont come to that the facebook socialists will soon join the establishment "socialists" in propping up the old political order.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:18 PM

We haven’t even got brexit yet but the sheer prospect of it has ditched the pound. I was loading my prepaid Caxton card (I use it on my holidays) at around €1.38 eighteen months ago. A week before I went to Madeira last month I couldn’t even get €1.08. As I’d expected this and loaded up me spending money well in advance it didn’t bother me personally. But just think. Imports dearer, inflation soaring in consequence and companies unable to meet it via pay increases...and such a long way to go!

Still, as we fall down the skyscraper and ignore the ground rapidly coming up to obliterate us, isn’t the blue sky with its fluffy little clouds so lovely...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 02:16 AM


I remember the last big run in Wilsons time when they tried to sabotage his govt.
Surely you don't want to see a repeat of that for ideological reasons "D"?

Well, ake, there is a huge difference between planning what you would to prevent, or minimise the effects of something and wanting it to happen.


Secondly, when 'they' tried to sabotage Wilson's government? Are you referring to Peter Wright's assertions in "Spycatcher" that the establishment, via MI5, was trying to sabotage Wilson's government? No, I certainly don't want that to happen.    But are you referring to the devaluation of the pound under Wilson of 14%?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:40 AM

Yes "D" I'm referring to the wholesale financial speculation which led to the devaluation.

The political establishment have many such tools in their armoury.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:47 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:54 PM
DmCG The run on the pound occured immediately after the Referendum vote.
The pound has consistently traded at 10% lower against the Dollar and 15% below against the Euro since the vote.
There are few, if any, signs of it recovering those losses in the near future.

So we may see a further drop. The only surprise is that people are surprised.
The pound is currently at $1.32 and is probably still overvalued. A period of adjustment for the pound has long been expected.

See: The Telegraph 26 Dec 2015

The pound is one of the most overvalued currencies in the world and will suffer next year as the Government ramps up spending cuts and uncertainty about Britain’s future in the EU weighs on growth.

Analysts at Deutsche Bank warned that the Bank of England may not be able to raise interest rates “at all” if Britain’s recovery slows.

It believes the pound could fall as low as $1.27 next year and $1.15 in 2017 from about $1.485 today if the US Federal Reserve continues to tighten monetary policy and the Bank of England leaves interest rates on hold.

“We have various different ways of looking at currency valuations and what we find is that sterling is the most expensive currency out there at the moment - even including the dollar,” said Oliver Harvey, foreign exchange strategist at Deutsche Bank. Earlier this year, the International Monetary Fund said the pound was between 5pc and 15pc overvalued.


So the pound's recent fall is an overdue re-balancing of its value when compared with other currencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

"Brexit wont initiate a run on the pound, but the election of a socialist government certainly would"

Have you looked at the exchange rates in the last 18 months since the Referendum?

In November 2015 I exchanged a good sum at 1.41 Euro to the pound so each Euro cost me 71 pence sterling.

Today if I exchanged I would get 1.11 Euro to the pound so each Euro would cost me 90 pence sterling.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the maths.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:34 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM
"Brexit wont initiate a run on the pound, but the election of a socialist government certainly would"
Have you looked at the exchange rates in the last 18 months since the Referendum?
In November 2015 I exchanged a good sum at 1.41 Euro to the pound so each Euro cost me 71 pence sterling.
Today if I exchanged I would get 1.11 Euro to the pound so each Euro would cost me 90 pence sterling.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the maths.

That's just good timing (or good luck). There's a graph Here that shows the pound at similar rates for most of 2015, but then falling.
However, the rate still hasn't hit the low that it had in 2009 under a Labour government.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:54 AM

Nor has it ever hit the high of 1.75 euro to the pound, also under a Labour Government in April 2000.

Amazing what you can cherry pick.

However since the referendum the pound has consistently traded at a level 15% lower than before the vote.

Every day, every week, every month.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 06:56 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:54 AM
Nor has it ever hit the high of 1.75 euro to the pound, also under a Labour Government in April 2000.
Amazing what you can cherry pick.
However since the referendum the pound has consistently traded at a level 15% lower than before the vote.
Every day, every week, every month.

Immediately prior to the result (June 23 2016) the rate was 1.3039.
85% (100% less 15%) of 1.3039 is 1.1083 The pound fell below this level briefly in Oct/Nov 2016 and again in August/Sept 2017

So NOT 15% lower, every day, every week, every month. Hardly even two full months out of fifteen.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM

Are you trying to suggest that the pound has not consistently traded at a lower level for the past 15 months.

At the time of the referendum the pound traded at 1.3030 Euro, thus each Euro cost 0.7669 pence.

Today the pound is trading at 1.1137, thus each Euro costs 0.8979 pence.

The difference is a 16% fall on todays market, it has been greater.

Now we could argue figures all day but the fact remains that the pound has been consistently lower against the Euro in the 15 months between the referendum and now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:17 AM

It must also be pointed out that many years ago the pound traded at 1.04 to the euro. Currencies go up-currencies go down. This is a fact of life. The most severe drops have been on Labour's watch under Brown
the bountiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM

Nigel, you are in denial. Whether the pound was overvalued by five, or fifteen, percent is moot. The obstinate fact is that the pound has plummeted by 14% in the last year and and a bit. The referendum took place a year and a bit ago. The two are inextricably connected. The devaluation has been at the same percentage loss as under Wilson. Sudden swings are very bad for the economy. Imports are dearer and inflation goes up. Pay rises won't follow suit. All this has happened even before the nuts and bolts of brexit have started to grind. We ain't seen nothing yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:37 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM
Are you trying to suggest that the pound has not consistently traded at a lower level for the past 15 months.
No. I am not suggesting that. I am correcting your claim that since the referendum the pound has consistently traded at a level 15% lower than before the vote

At the time of the referendum the pound traded at 1.3030 Euro, thus each Euro cost 0.7669 pence.
Today the pound is trading at 1.1137, thus each Euro costs 0.8979 pence.
The difference is a 16% fall on todays market, it has been greater.
No I can’t see where you’re getting 16% from on that calculation either.

As you said earlier: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the maths.. I would suggest you don’t go in for rocket science then, as you can’t handle basic maths.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM

Iains, Have you looked at the graph provided by Nigel, who I would consider one of your "allies" in this dsicussion.

During much of the Labour Governments term of office the pound traded at a much higher level. Only occasionally has it reached the same heights under a Conservative/Coalition Government.

You can see the figures for yourself.

However, this is a distraction from the discussion that the Pound has significantly weakened against the Euro since the Brexit vote. That is a fact which is clear to see in the graph kindly provided by Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:47 AM

0.7669 divided by 100 multiplied by 116 equals 0.8896.

So the actually rate is slightly higher at 16.7% give or take a point.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:52 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM
Nigel, you are in denial. Whether the pound was overvalued by five, or fifteen, percent is moot. The obstinate fact is that the pound has plummeted by 14% in the last year and and a bit. The referendum took place a year and a bit ago. The two are inextricably connected. The devaluation has been at the same percentage loss as under Wilson. Sudden swings are very bad for the economy. Imports are dearer and inflation goes up. Pay rises won't follow suit. All this has happened even before the nuts and bolts of brexit have started to grind. We ain't seen nothing yet.

I am not in denial. I was pointing out that it was already known that the pound was overvalued, and due for an adjustment. The advent of Brexit was an ideal opportunity for this to happen. Even without Brexit it would have had to happen at some point.
Your comment about the increased cost (in pounds) of inports is quite valid, but you ignore (presumably as it doesn't suit your case) that the same effect makes our exports more desirable elsewhere as the will have had a matching reduction in cost (in the currency of the purchaser) thus helping our exports.

I still see Brexit as being a forward move.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM

While I agree the lower value of the pound may help us sell more, do not forget we are a net importer and have been for quite a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:02 AM

If you study the exchange rates you will find the pound started to decline in Nov 2015 from a high of 1.41 to around 1.26 by the time the referendum occurred. Market sentiment was that brexit would be a resounding nay(or neigh)yet the decline was ongoing. It was a market correction, as has been alluded to. To what extent brexit influenced the decline is impossible to determine.
Scroll down for pound euro and move the cursor on the graph for date and value.

https://www.exfinuk.com/historical-forex-gbp

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:09 AM

None so blind as those that will not see................

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:10 AM

Actually Iains your graphs show much the same decline as Nigels.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:13 AM

Yes: 0.7669 divided by 100 multiplied by 116 equals 0.8896.
And .8896 is less than .8979
So .8979 is 17% greater than .7669 That does not mean the value of the pound has fallen by 17%. Your basic premise is wrong.

When calculating how much something has fallen (or risen) your base value (100%) is the point at which you started.
So with an opening rate of 1.3030, and a closing rate of 1.1137 the reduction of the rate is (roughly) 14.5%
If you have problems seeing this. Take an item costing £10. If the price goes up to £15 then that is a 50% increase (50% of the original £10)
But if you start with an item at £15 and reduce the price to £10 then that is not a 50% reduction, because you base the percentage on the original price (£5 reduction based on £15 start price is a 33.33% reduction).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM

Oooh !! 14.5% not the 15.% I initially quoted

Only 14.5% we're saved ............... Yippee!!!!

It is still 14.5% Nigel, an on cost to every man jack of us at some point.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:37 AM

Yep, a lower pound would help us sell more. Now lessee, what is it we'd like to sell? Er...

I see it's denial day today.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:57 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM
Oooh !! 14.5% not the 15.% I initially quoted (and attempted to ‘prove’ using dodgy maths)
Only 14.5% we're saved ............... Yippee!!!!

It is still 14.5% Nigel, an on cost to every man jack of us at some point.
Possibly (assuming that by an ‘on cost’ you mean that the cost is passed on to us). But I’m sure I haven’t seen a 15% rise (or anywhere near) in the cost of my weekly shopping bill since we started leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:17 AM

In the meantime, the Tory party fiddles while brexit burns us down. Interesting read in today's Guardian, "A new cabinet won't save May, Brexit has doomed her" by Steve Richards. It seems that Europe dooms Tory leader after Tory leader and she's going to be no exception. No time for schadenfreude, though. Maybe for shaftenfreude, which, roughly translated, means taking pleasure in the inevitable immolation of the Tories whilst simultaneously realising that we're all completely stuffed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:21 AM

I don't think anyone claims the cost of your weekly shop will mirror the devaluation: imports are only part of the price. But we will still end up paying the whole lot in more subtle ways, like the increased cost of government borrowing, deferred pay increases and a myriad of other ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:30 AM

The tories are in a right state. The party is directionless under weak leadership and the sniping of right-wing backbenchers. Meanwhile Liar-in-Chief Boris is proving a real hazard; May can't sack him because he'd be a real loose cannon on the back benches and yet as foreign secretary he's a laughing stock. It it wasn't for the distraction of Trump's Flying Circus across the puddle the world would be laughing at us more than they already are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:44 AM

You haven't seen a 15% rise in your shopping bill because nowhere near all your shopping is stuff we've bought in from outside, and because costs are not necessarily passed on fully to consumers straight away as suppliers shave their profit margins in order to stay competitive. And what DMcG said. Fluctuations in oil prices, which have nothing to do with exchange rates, can either enhance or offset inflation. But the CPI 12-month rate rose from 0.3 to 2.7 in the year after the referendum. That ties in closely with the decline of the pound. No denying it, Nigel. The referendum result helped to crash the pound and put up inflation. The next thing will be a drop in living standards as pay fails to keep up with inflation, which is inevitable. I wonder when the next Tory grandee-to-be (which is what happens to most failed Tories, and there’s a queue forming fast) will be telling us that we’re all in it together...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 12:03 PM

We certainly are "all in it together", whether you like it or not.
If you lot don't stop your whining about losing some of your privileges, "rights" and unearned wealth, we really will be "in it".

We are being held to ransom for something which we don't need and which we are never going to get .....favourable terms from the EU.
We have upset their corrupt little club and they ain't going to help us in any way. In fact they are willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces on this one.

I'm not surprised that a majority of politicians support remaining in the EU, that is their retirement fund, but you people are supposed to be "of the left", always blethering on about change and looking after the poor, regeneration.   There hasn't been much sign of that under the iron fist of Brussels.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 01:02 PM

"I'm not surprised that a majority of politicians support remaining in the EU, that is their retirement fund"

I wasn't aware that Brussels financed the retirement packages of the UK Government, true some of them may find work there after their time in the Commons, some but not all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 01:30 PM

In fact they are willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces on this one.

I very much doubt if that is the case, ake. They will do what *they* see as in their best interests. But that does not necessarily coincide with what *Britain claims* is in the EU's best interests, and it certainly won't be limited to strictly financial matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 01:44 PM

My cherished EU passport expires four days after brexit. What a pisser. I’ll be stateless in my head. Maybe I’ll stump up the unconscionable fee and get meself an Irish one. I’m entitled, but the Emerald Isle wants my dough.

There aren’t enough hours in the day to address the arrant, disconnected nonsense in akenaton’s post.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM

"
There aren’t enough hours in the day to address the arrant, disconnected nonsense in akenaton’s post."

:0).....Best compliment I've had for weeks, if that is Steve's considered opinion, I must have hit the mark, dead centre and bloody hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 03:51 PM

The only marks we associate you with are skidmarks, mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:23 PM

And now the OBR, set up by the Tories, has significantly downgraded its predictions for productivity over the next five years, blaming brexit and low interest rates. Oh ye of brave face, where art thou now?

And don't mention BAE...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 03:16 AM

"There hasn't been much sign of that under the iron fist of Brussels."

You might want to educate yourself on that matter. Look up what the EU has done for some of the most deprived communities in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 03:23 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 01:44 PM
My cherished EU passport expires four days after brexit. What a pisser. I’ll be stateless in my head. Maybe I’ll stump up the unconscionable fee and get meself an Irish one. I’m entitled, but the Emerald Isle wants my dough.

Or you could request, and pay for, a replacement now (or any time before Brexit) and get a new UK/EC passport which will last you for several more years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 03:36 AM

In fact, there is no need to lose any of the time remaining on your passport. Just renew it 6 months before expiry:
You can renew your passport at any time. When you renew your passport, time left on your existing passport is added to your new one, up to a maximum of 9 months.
From Here

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM

ake - i think you need to have a serious think about the 'iron fist of brussels' it is really an ignorant insult to those in our continent who suffered under nazi or soviet iron fists for years. our daughter lives and works in estonia where in their 800 year history they have only been an independent nation for less than 50. fancy going there and telling this new and hopeful EU nation that they are living under the iron fist of brussels? calm down and have a think about how lucky and free you are. in what single way does being in an EU nation have a negative effect on your daily life? you are completely free to say whatever nonsense you like about all levels of government - not really that much of an iron fist is it, comrade?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM

I'm not surprised that a majority of politicians support remaining in the EU,

The Eu is an employment scheme for politicians, providing lucrative pay and expenses and a lovely lifestyle for hosts of them.
When that comes to a stop they will all have to fight like cats for the remaining jobs. Of course they all vote against.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 02:21 PM

yes, they do nothing at all of any worth whatsoever. trying to keep peace between often warring factions? encouraging free movement and friendship between people? protecting our environment and our rights at work> helping poorer regions? even twinning and the erasmus project? total greedy bastards every one of them. except farage of course

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM

"The Eu is an employment scheme for politicians, providing lucrative pay and expenses and a lovely lifestyle for hosts of them."

Christian Churches are employment schemes for clerics, providing easy sexual access to underage children and near-immunity from punishment. Hollywood is an employment scheme for directors, providing them with unlimited sexual access to gorgeous young women who will do anything to get the parts. In other words, there's nothing like a good old bit of brainless prejudice, is there, Keith? As a matter of fact, politicians have a job to do and one that needs doing, and, as with most other professions, the majority do a fair and honest job. Give it a rest, Keith. And well said, Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 03:10 AM

"politicians have a job to do and one that needs doing, and, as with most other professions, the majority do a fair and honest job."

Can't believe anyone had the gall to write that.
"The majority"......all politicians are public servants, all should be fair and honest."
How soon we forget the expenses debacle, when our "liberal" friends led the chorus of vilification.....and we never got to the truth of half of it. The extortionate fees commanded by politicians for private speaking engagements
Blair's role in the Iraq war, supported by almost every politician in the UK, against the will of the people as shown in huge demonstrations up and down the country.

There are only a handful of politicians who are not corrupt, they are agents of a system which promotes corruption.

Don't even look at established American politics, if you do, don't consider repeating your ridiculous assertion.

The EU is the most corrupt and undemocratic organisation in the West, no wonder they seek to retain it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 03:59 AM

sadly that will be the last we hear from ake for a time. the totalitarian powers employed by the EU will no doubt be sending their agents to sweep him up in their iron fist and despatch him to some bureaucratic dungeon where he will be bound in red tape until freed by a liam fox run hit squad in march 2019.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM

Steve,
Christian Churches are employment schemes for clerics,

I agree, but I believe it to be a great force for good in the world.

If we leave the EU, the group who would suffer most is the political class for whom it provides such manifold and lucrative employment opportunities.
That is why we should treat that group's views with particular suspicion.

Similarly, if it was seriously proposed to abolish the Christian Church, I would give the least credence to the views of those who it would put out of jobs, i.e. clerics.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:25 AM

Good morning. Today's news: looks like the tories are having second thoughts as a theme of "we were better in the EU" is emerging from one faction of the warring cabinet of millionaires, with the Maybot refusing to answer a question on whether she would vote to stay in or now were the referendum to be held now. Which means she would vote in.


"How soon we forget the expenses debacle"

Of course Ake, your vile Kipper mates including your lord and master in neo-nazi nastiness Farage have been coining it in from the EU, with the toff city wideboy himself boasting he used £2,000,000 of taxpayer's money to promote UKIP, with no doubt a fair wodge of that being used to pay for his own 'expenses'. In fact, your lot are known for being the greedy little maggots of the EU parliament. They're laughing at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:25 AM

"You might want to educate yourself on that matter. Look up what the EU has done for some of the most deprived communities in the UK."


Yes, like massively widening the "wealth gap" in every country under their control.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM

If we leave the EU, the group who would suffer most is the political class

Most living, mainstream economists who have had books published in major bookshops disagree.

Most economists still pessimistic about effects of Brexit

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:32 AM

Dave, we would have to subscribe to the notoriously Europhile FT to read your link.
"Most economists" have already been proved wrong in their predictions about the referendum result.

In what way does the one line we can read, which you quoted, challenge anything in my post?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:37 AM

Stu,
with the toff city wideboy himself boasting he used £2,000,000 of taxpayer's money to promote UKIP,

Yes, but all EU MPs claim the same.
What do the others spend their millions on?
Not on working towards ending the abuse!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:42 AM

Most economists failed to see the financial crash of 2008 thundering towards them.

Of course they didn't fail to see it, they just hoped it would come to a juddering halt before it hit us. But they also knew that the financial system could not be allowed to implode no matter how much misery this would inflict upon the ordinary folk.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM

...and the Guardian

...and the Economist

...and Bloomberg

...and The Independent

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:55 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM
. . .Most living, mainstream economists who have had books published in major bookshops disagree.
Most economists still pessimistic about effects of Brexit
DtG

Many 'mainstream economists' were predicting major catastrophe to immediately follow a vote to leave. It didn't happen.
"Living mainstream economists" Okay, I think we can accept that dead economists are unlikely to be having books published about Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:58 AM

You had to have been there, Nigel ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:08 AM

BTW

Many 'mainstream economists' were predicting major catastrophe to immediately follow a vote to leave. It didn't happen.

Hate crimes rise by up to 100 per cent across England and Wales

Maybe not the catastrophe that anyone had in mind but a catastrophe all the same.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:09 AM

"Yes, but all EU MPs claim the same."

Could you be arsed to look the figures up, you'd know that's not the case. Don't try your fake news here Trump's boy!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:23 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Hate crimes rise by up to 100 per cent across England and Wales
It helps to read articles before quoting headlines. Some newspapers fail to match their headlines to the facts.
Yes, the article does give one county where there was a 100% rise. But that was the maximum. I fail to see how their headline also encapsulates the fact that some areas actually saw a fall within that same period.
Hate crimes did not 'rise' everywhere.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:43 AM

Hate crimes did not 'rise' everywhere.

Maybe not but any rise (no need for quotes) is a bad thing. If you have an issue with the headline in the Independent take it up with them. Maybe you would be happier with this BBC report. It still reports a massive increase and is still, in my opinion, a catastrophe.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:44 AM

Any rise in hate crime anywhere is a defeat for common decency.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:58 AM

Pound slumped, inflation rising, lowest growth in G7 and of most major EU countries, OBR forecast for productivity downgraded for the next five years, the party supposedly running the country at war with itself, Tory backwoodsmen not only briefing against May but also against Hammond, EU refusing to negotiate on a trade deal because we won’t stump up what we owe (once we leave and find ourselves in catastrophe land that sixty billion will look like a drop in the ocean), time ebbing away, brave face now being put on the disastrous prospect of no deal... Oh yes, things are really looking up. Still, never mind. Within a year or two we’ll have revived the Empire, the sun will never set on the red bits of the map and all these desperate foreign Johnnies will be queuing up to do amazing trade deals with us.

Like hell they will. The only way out of this morass is to abandon Article 50 and stay where we are. It can be done and, increasingly probably, it will. And we won’t even need a referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 06:02 AM

If you have an issue with the headline in the Independent take it up with them
My problem wasn't with The Independent. It was with you quoting it as a supportive fact to your arguments without realising that it wasn't in line with the article it covered.

I haven't read the Independent since they cancelled their paper edition. Even then it was only on Saturday, for the 16*16 Sudoku.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 06:18 AM

It was with you quoting it as a supportive fact to your arguments without realising that it wasn't in line with the article it covered.

But I did no such thing. I just used the wording of the headline to provide a link to the article which I had read in full. The article is there for anyone to read and you did so. As far as I can tell your argument is simply with the headline hence my suggesting you take it up with them. Is the BBC article more to your liking? Do you think that because they report an increase in hate crime of a measly 41% overall on the previous year that it is OK?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM

No, an increase in hate crime of 41% is not acceptable.
Hate crime is unacceptable. Decrying the rate of the rise seems pointless, unless you are highlighting it as a factor brought on by Brexit. But then there was an 18% rise between 2013/24 & 2014/15 (pre brexit) < ahref=http://www.report-it.org.uk/hate_crimes_reported_to_police_up_18_in_england>Here

So the rise is not a purely Brexit phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:57 AM

Try again with the correct link:
No, an increase in hate crime of 41% is not acceptable.
Hate crime is unacceptable. Decrying the rate of the rise seems pointless, unless you are highlighting it as a factor brought on by Brexit. But then there was an 18% rise between 2013/24 & 2014/15 (pre brexit) Here

So the rise is not a purely Brexit phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 08:33 AM


So the rise is not a purely Brexit phenomenon

Surely Dave was arguing it was a Brexit related rise, not that it was 'purely' due to Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 10:22 AM

Hate crime will continue to increase as long as we are divided politically. It exists on left and right, but only amongst the politically ignorant

This forum at present is a wonderful example of hypocrisy and ignorance and almost all of the hatred comes from so called leftists.
Perhaps it is the double whammy of our referendum result and the election of President Donal John which they cannot abide, but I as a lifelong democrat, in the true sense of the word, think their attitude exposes them as hypocrites.

Firstly there is the plan to overturn democracy by way of obstructing the process to remove ourselves from the EU.
Secondly there is the answer the US Election result by one of our prominent member "We must try to drive him out of his mind"

Both Fascist in concept. The hatred which has been heaped on Mr Farage and President Donal John beggars belief

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 10:31 AM

Hate is a terrible thing.
It is hard to see why the referendum should have caused any.
Hate was an issue in the party conferences this year, but only in one of them.
Anti-Semitism was only an issue in the Labour conference, and only there did the BBC have to provide a bodyguard for their Political Editor, because she is a Jew.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 10:36 AM

Stu,
Meanwhile Liar-in-Chief Boris is proving a real hazard;

A minister caught out in a lie has to resign.
Why not report him and get him sacked?
Why not give us an example of his lies?

Could you be arsed to look the figures up, you'd know that's not the case.

Could you?
Did he claim more than he was entitled to?
Do others claim less than they are entitled to?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 10:50 AM

Elizabeth Truss, Chief Secretary to the Treasury on BBC explaining why she is no longer a remainer,
"I made a judgement thinking that it would be bad for the economy. Since we have left, it’s been more positive, so the facts have changed so I have changed my mind. "

On same programme Health Sec. Hunt said he was wrong to worry about the British economy after Brexit.
He also said that the EU’s “disappointing” and “arrogant” behaviour since the referendum has turned him against the bloc.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 10:59 AM

I don't think the British people have any real hatred towards immigrants....they just think that the EU rules enable too many to come here.

If there is any hatred amongst the British people it is chiefly against Radical Islam by whom they are being attacked on a daily basis, by bombs, guns, knifes, even motor vehicles, but chiefly by vicious propaganda and adherence to an intolerant religion which demands death to all who deny it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:00 AM

inspired by an erstwhile DJ and band manager recalling the hassles then. & I came across this problemo at work too.

Taking equipment across customs' borders 35 years ago, required a carnet to say it was tools of the trade coming back with you. not sales trying to dodge local taxes.

Businesses regularly trading will be up to speed eventually when the generation who never knew of such things get caught once or twice. Even then ask the Norwegians and Swedes about it, on-line registration doesn't stop the customs picking you out for a sample. But musicians? Beware - get the booking and the carnet together - from who? Dunno! Birmingham Chamber of Commerce gave us ours - for the second trip!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:04 AM

 only there did the BBC have to provide a bodyguard for their Political Editor, because she is a Jew.

It is appalling this happened, and it is true she had to have a bodyguard. But I am aware of no evidence that it was because she was a Jew.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:14 AM

she seems a bit too tory-inclined for my liking but it had never occurred to me to consider what her religion might be. why would anyone care?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:37 AM

No-one is trying to “obstruct the process.” It is perfectly legitimate, as issues arise and problems develop, to put the case for a change of direction. That is not the opposite of democracy. That is real democracy. What is fascistic is any attempt to silence people who disagree with our leaving the EU. By calling us fascists you are attacking our right to free speech. And I’m going to further exercise my right to free speech by not-so-respectfully asking Keith to bloody knock it off about Labour and antisemitism. It’s been quite nice without you this past week. We need you reviving that cancerous topic like we need a hole in the head. Please be told, will you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM

I's not a "change of direction", it is the reversal of a democratic vote.   Get over it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 12:41 PM

"It is hard to see why the referendum should have caused any."

The referendum itself didn't. You xenophobic, homophobic right wing dullards and clagnut-quaffing goons and your leaders (Boris the liar) certainly did.

Anyway, looks like the whole thing might stall, the sooner the better. Then we can get on with things like 'science', 'trade' and 'culture'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 01:03 PM

I think you are the one who needs to educate yourself, where have you been for the last few months?

Pete "she seems a bit too tory-inclined for my liking but it had never occurred to me to consider what her religion might be. why would anyone care? "

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 01:56 PM

i was off this site for a couple of years? coming back, lots of changes but little has changed on here. on what do i need to educate myself?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 02:28 PM

Were referendum voters to blame for the hate crimes, or those who sanctioned the referendum which is parliament and every political party.
Is it not quite possible that there might have been more hate crime if the leavers had lost?

Is the hate crime at all relevant to a discussion about Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM

"Is it not quite possible that there might have been more hate crime if the leavers had lost?"

Could you imagine the sense of victimhood, give how well developed it is already in Brexiteers?


"Were referendum voters to blame for the hate crimes"

Not all of them of course, some are very nice. Some are not though.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 02:46 PM

Is the hate crime at all relevant to a discussion about Brexit?

There a number of reasons it is relevant, but this is one that I don't remember us talking about. There are some supporters of Brexit - and if I read him rightly ake is an example - who say the Brexit process will be painful and in some ways we might be worse of than now, but in their judgement we will be better off in the longer term out than in. While I don't agree, that seems honest and straightforward.

There are others who cannot face there being any problem at all with Brexit at any stage: everything has to be an improvement, or at worst unrelated, the whole time. So an increase in hate crime? Can't have anything to do with Brexit. Lowering our credit rating, loss of value of the pound, OBR downgradings? Can't be Brexit....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 03:33 PM

"I don't think the British people have any real hatred towards immigrants....they just think that the EU rules enable too many to come here" (Akenaton)

You must have led a very, very sheltered life.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:24 PM

The rise in hate crime was to do with the way the brexit lobby demonised immigrants to engender anti-EU feelings. The referendum itself was a catastrophe and caused a lot of harm to a lot of people, culminating in the death of young mother.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:41 PM

"Were referendum voters to blame for the hate crimes..."

Referendum voters comprised 72% of the electorate. Referendum non-voters comprised 28% of the electorate. Remain voters in general would not have accepted all the bullshit we were peddled about foreigners taking our jobs and houses and cluttering up our public services, otherwise they wouldn't have voted remain. Many leave voters, on the other hand, would have swallowed those lies hook, line and sinker. Not all of them. I'm sure there were a few thinking leave voters. They weren't thinking straight, but let's cut them some slack and just say they were genuine but seriously misguided. Then there's the other 28%, who either didn't give a damn one way or the other, couldn't be arsed to vote, didn't vote because those bastard politicians are all the same anyway, or didn't know what the EU was supposed to be all about, or were opposed to referendums in principle, or simply couldn't decide. We can't speak for them. What we can say is that it's a good bet that most of the increase in hate crime came from anti-immigrant, anti-EU people, leavers in other words, and that all the rhetoric, lies and anti-immigrant hate speech we had to endure during the campaign must have had a big impact on them. If you have a better analysis (not a disingenuous one, please), then let's be having it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:12 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:37 AM
No-one is trying to “obstruct the process.” It is perfectly legitimate, as issues arise and problems develop, to put the case for a change of direction. That is not the opposite of democracy. That is real democracy. What is fascistic is any attempt to silence people who disagree with our leaving the EU. By calling us fascists you are attacking our right to free speech.

So, no one should speak out strongly against those who voted to remain, but are trying to overturn a democratic vote . . .

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:41 PM
. . . Remain voters in general would not have accepted all the bullshit we were peddled about foreigners taking our jobs and houses and cluttering up our public services, otherwise they wouldn't have voted remain. Many leave voters, on the other hand, would have swallowed those lies hook, line and sinker. Not all of them. I'm sure there were a few thinking leave voters. They weren't thinking straight, but let's cut them some slack and just say they were genuine but seriously misguided.

But anyone who voted to leave was either racist, or seriously misguided.

It's interesting to juxtapose two of Steve's posts to see just how one-sided he can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:20 PM

"If you have a better analysis (not a disingenuous one, please), then let's be having it."
all I have seen so far is opinions, not facts. Analysis of an opinion is an exercise in futility.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:52 PM

The two posts are completely unrelated, there's nothing inconsistent in them and you are being mischievous. No-one I know is trying to "overturn a democratic vote." Those who are campaigning for a change of mind are going about it entirely democratically. No-one is planting bombs, pointing guns, rigging votes, threatening people on the doorstep, organising violent demonstrations, talking hate speech or kidnapping the prime minister. In a free country with free speech I'm fully entitled to make the case, even now, for remaining in the EU as strongly and fervently as I can. My opinion is that the referendum was fatally flawed, both because the bar was set inappropriately and in that the campaign was a complete disgrace from start to finish. I'm not going to be told by anyone that my demurring from that is "undemocratic" when it's actually precisely the opposite. Your accusing me of "trying to overturn a democratic vote" is emotional, undemocratic, fascistic and is a full reflection of your insecurity. My view is that most leavers are now privately reconsidering their position. Of course, hubris may prevent many from coming out - for now. The whole thing is collapsing day by day around your ears. Our ears. Every night the news is apocalyptic. It's an impending bloody disaster that we are being steered into by the most inept government I can remember in my lifetime. You won't admit it now. I do understand that. You have your pride. But you were wrong and, deep down, you know it. I'll give you six months, by which time you'll have to eat shit. Or you could act with a bit more grace and humility and admit, finally, that brexit is going to be the biggest disaster in generations. You will have to, sooner or later.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:12 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:52 PM
The two posts are completely unrelated,
They are on the same thread, and deal with the same subject matter, and are posted by the same person. - How 'related' do you want them to be?

there's nothing inconsistent in them and you are being mischievous. No-one I know is trying to "overturn a democratic vote." Those who are campaigning for a change of mind are going about it entirely democratically. I didn't say you were trying to do it by force. The democratic vote was to leave the EU. You are putting your arguments to try to persuade people that UK should remain in the EU. If this happens the result of the referendum will have been overturned. Isn't that what I said?

No-one is planting bombs, pointing guns, rigging votes, threatening people on the doorstep, organising violent demonstrations, talking hate speech or kidnapping the prime minister. and I never said anything to suggest that they were.

In a free country with free speech I'm fully entitled to make the case, even now, for remaining in the EU as strongly and fervently as I can. My opinion is that the referendum was fatally flawed, both because the bar was set inappropriately and in that the campaign was a complete disgrace from start to finish. I'm not going to be told by anyone that my demurring from that is "undemocratic" when it's actually precisely the opposite. Your accusing me of "trying to overturn a democratic vote" is emotional, undemocratic, fascistic and is a full reflection of your insecurity. My view is that most leavers are now privately reconsidering their position.
You are entitled to hold that view, no matter how inaccurate it might be. I have a similar view that many who voted to remain have since seen that the promised cataclysms never happened and that a further vote may command an even higher majority to vote 'Leave'.

Of course, hubris may prevent many from coming out - for now. The whole thing is collapsing day by day around your ears. Our ears. Every night the news is apocalyptic. It's an impending bloody disaster that we are being steered into by the most inept government I can remember in my lifetime.
Yes, the current government does appear somewhat inept, but at least they are trying to do the job that the people have elected them, and instructed them, to do.

You won't admit it now. I do understand that. You have your pride. But you were wrong and, deep down, you know it. I'll give you six months, by which time you'll have to eat shit.
A lovely turn of phrase you have there. do you mean "eat your words" or were you brought up a 'potty-mouth'. Your mother would be so proud!

Or you could act with a bit more grace and humility and admit, finally, that brexit is going to be the biggest disaster in generations. You will have to, sooner or later.
Dream on!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:35 PM

So you are trying to pretend that two posts of mine are in some way contradictory "because they're in the same thread." Sleep well, Nigel, and don't forget to say goodnight to the folks... and when you wake up tomorrow, do try to stick to the substantive. Nighty night!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 01:52 AM

The democratic vote was to leave the EU.

As a point of interest, I'd like to hear what people think is the difference between a vote and a referendum. And since we've discussed the advisory/compulsory aspect of the headline result a lot, we can take those arguments as read. Is there any other difference?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 04:02 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:35 PM
So you are trying to pretend that two posts of mine are in some way contradictory "because they're in the same thread." Sleep well, Nigel, and don't forget to say goodnight to the folks... and when you wake up tomorrow, do try to stick to the substantive. Nighty night!
Your grasp of the English language is appalling.
The posts are 'contradictory' because they show conflicting views. (something you can't deny, so don't attempt to)
They are 'related' by being in the same thread (and by the same person, dealing with the same subject matter. (you tried to distance yourself from one or both of the comments by saying they were unrelated)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 04:18 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 01:52 AM
The democratic vote was to leave the EU.
As a point of interest, I'd like to hear what people think is the difference between a vote and a referendum. And since we've discussed the advisory/compulsory aspect of the headline result a lot, we can take those arguments as read. Is there any other difference?

Interesting question.
I can't really see that there is a defining difference in the two terms. A referendum is an opportunity to display your wishes by voting. A vote (as a noun) can either be your statement of your individual preference, or the event in which you are given the opportunity to cast that vote.
If there is any real difference I would say that a vote (in terms of the 'event') is usually used for elections etc., whereas a referendum will usually be a method of finding the prevalent view on a single issue.
So the referendum asked whether we wished to remain part of the EU, while the election asks which party, or local MP, we trust most to run the country according to our more general preferences.

I accept that others may have totally different views, but I'm just giving mine, as I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 05:07 AM

I agree entirely Nigel, a referendum is exclusively on one issue and is carefully worded as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM

It is an interesting question. There might be a difference in whether a vote in an election is the same as in a referendum as a referendum is advisory, not legally binding whereas a vote in an election would be binding? Just guessing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 06:13 AM

If you want to turn yourself into another Iains/Teribus clone, Nigel, do feel free. You haven’t made a single valid point about anything inconsistent or contradictory that I’ve said and your posts flogging this particular dead equine are getting less and less focused. If you want to carry on being tiresome, you can be tiresome on your own from now on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 06:49 AM

Well you cast your vote in both. In the one you are choosing who you want to represent you and run the affairs of the parish/town/county/nation. Next time round you can change your mind or vote again for the same lot. Or you can vote tactically. There are various ways of deciding who’s won. In this country we have an unfair first-past-the-post system. In the other we are either voting for an irrevocable (more or less) decision to make a significant change (no next time round) or a reversible decision (another referendum is perfectly possible) to keep the status quo. Which is why an unqualified first-past-the-post setup is simply not right for referendums.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 07:58 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 06:49 AM

Well you cast your vote in both. In the one you are choosing who you want to represent you and run the affairs of the parish/town/county/nation. Next time round you can change your mind or vote again for the same lot. Or you can vote tactically. There are various ways of deciding who’s won. In this country we have an unfair first-past-the-post system. In the other we are either voting for an irrevocable (more or less) decision to make a significant change (no next time round) or a reversible decision (another referendum is perfectly possible) to keep the status quo. Which is why an unqualified first-past-the-post setup is simply not right for referendums.

I think you're confusing 'first past the post' with 'simple majority' voting.

The main problems with 'first past the post' is that it is used for general elections and will result in one group getting many more MPs (who each just get first place with a small portion of the population) than their overall 'vote-share' would suggest.
The alternate to this could be 'proportional representation'.

For a referendum, the only question is what percentage of the total vote is obtained by either side of the question. The referendum will set out what percentage is required for one side to be a decisive winner. 'proportional representation' would have no benefits here. We can't pull the UK 52% out of the EU. We needed to decide whether to be in or out. 'Tactical voting' would have no effect. The only sensible thing to do is to vote for the outcome that you would wish to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 08:21 AM

In todays Guardian there is a report regarding David Davis the Brexit Secretary, unwillingness to divulge information gathered by 50 (FIFTY) studies commission by the governement into the effects of Brexit on Industry not only to the public to to fellow members of the House of Commons.


What, if anything, is being hidden.

It would seem a legal challenge to this may be forthcoming.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 08:44 AM

As I said, bad news piles on bad news every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 10:11 AM

Hi Steve

<" 13 Oct 17 - 06:49 AM ">

Of course you are right.

The problem was caused by the Government ( Cameron ) setting out the Referendum giving the view to many people that the result of the vote would be irreversible. He warned the Country " There will be no going back, you get one chance only."

Of course he made that statement in the mistaken belief that the vote would be a landslide for Remain.

That gave millions of voters that the the vote was Democratic. This appears to be the view of the senior Tories still.

In my more reflective moments I wonder how all this would be seen had the vote gone the other way.!!!

PS I have have been trying to get tickets for Anfield - my usual contacts have not come up with any. I will be glued to the TV. It will be a real test for Man United - they have played very ordinary teams so far. Tomorrow should be a good test for both sides.

Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 11:42 AM

Democracy can’t be predicated on being ignorant or having only simplistic notions. There was nothing democratic about the crowd baying for Barabbas or thousands baying for Hitler at one of his rallies. If you peddle populism or lies or promote Trump-like philistinism you are not only being undemocratic, you are being anti-democratic. Democracy, giving people political choices (which isn’t just letting them stick a cross in a box), has to be based on education and all the correct, neutral information needed to make the choice. That doesn’t mean you can’t campaign for your side, but it does mean that you can’t call yourself a democrat if you try to pull the wool over people’s eyes. Now discuss Boris’s battle bus in that context...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 01:34 PM

Like many of the far Left you think people too stupid to be given the choice. The referendum was democratic.
Both sides put their case and both sides challenged the other's case.
There was a clear if close result.
You lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 01:42 PM

Here is an interesting point from your hero back in May 2016, Keith.

52%/48% vote should lead to a second referendum

Someone thinks that a narrow margin is not as clear as you suggest. Wonder why he has not done anything about it?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 01:50 PM

That was Farage Dave. Far from a hero of mine. Why do you claim such shit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 02:19 PM

Maybe because you rigorously defend him and his actions even though he is a complete tosspot, Keith. But if you say he is no hero of yours, who am I to argue. You know yourself better than I do so I will take your word for it. Maybe you would offer me the same courtesy when you start to claim that you know what I meant better than me?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 03:58 PM

From EU’s chief negotiator, Jean-Claude Juncker:"The Europeans have to be grateful for so many things Britain has brought to Europe before war, during war, after war. But now they have to pay.”
Time to just walk out the door and leave the EU idiots to it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 05:45 PM

In your opinion. Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 06:04 PM

I have been told that nothing has really changed in the day to day routine for folks in the UK so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 06:26 PM

doneul - yes and no. it's a different, insidiuos mood. people are divided and you occasionally hear a row or have one yourself. our friend andrea has gone back (after 16 years teaching kids with special needs)to bologna as he had no certainty about future job prospects but had a firm offer back in italy. we used to watch west ham together, my friend bob died and my son moved to leeds. now it's just me - i blame brexit) it's tiring and boring to have to constantly stand up for decency and peace. a young man i work with told me 'iam going to teach you a lesson about socialism/capitalism on wednesday - he is a trump supporter and feels confident to lecture someone who has been reading and having this discussions for 45 years. i'm very happy to discuss but not to be lectured about how the state should have no role in business and how DT supports poor people by giving them all his wages etc etc...
but yes, nothing much changes. it rains, scotland fail to qualify for another tournament. the government lies and fails poorer people, and flog weapons to arm the culprits in the 9th of november twin towers.people die, people dance, some play music while others look for the main chance.it rains and celtic can't lose while partick thistle can't win

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 06:43 PM

Billy Connolly said that, as a lad, he always thought that the name of his team was "Partick Nil."

Nothing seems to have changed. It's the British way: soldier on. But things are not what they seem. As McGrath of Harlow pointed out, as you fall from the top of the skyscraper the view is grand, the sun's shining, you have the breeze in your hair and the little fluffy clouds look lovely. Thing is, you haven't quite noticed the ground rapidly coming up at you. We call the phenomenon brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 03:30 AM

Getting very tetchy shaw! Is this because a few more are having the audacity to question your incessant gibberings?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 05:20 AM

dave,
Maybe because you rigorously defend him and his actions even though he is a complete tosspot, Keith.

I never have. Confusing me with someone else or making shit up?
I am not defending him now, but why is he "a complete tosspot."
Puerile abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 05:23 AM

Nothing much changes. it rains, scotland fail to qualify for another tournament. the government lies and fails poorer people...

As you say, those things which Kipling referred as "the things that truly last/When men and times are past" still carry on. But as you also say, there are plenty of other little changes going on. My sister and her husband, who worked in Germany for around ten years, retired, and planned to spend the rest of their lives there, have just sold up this week to move back to the UK after about 20 years, for fear of what might happen to health care. (Nor, by the way, are they confident about what will happen to their UK healthcare having been so long out of the country).

Ok, that's one couple out of round about 3m and of course some EU citizens will corresponding move out, like peteaberdeen's andrea. so the total numbers may not change that much. But the people who move in will largely be like my sister: elderly, retired, 'not economically active', and putting demands on the NHS. Those who move out are largely younger, economically active, and requiring little from the NHS. That is a change that is slow but will happen over the next few years leading up to the divorce date.


(Before anyone mentions it, I am aware the NHS paid while they were in Germany: it is not financial stress I was referring to, but all the other resources.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 05:53 AM

Is the hate crime at all relevant to a discussion about Brexit?

In as much as there was a spike in incidents of the crime following the vote, intelligent people look to reasons behind the correlation. And Jo Cox may have been an isolated incident but if you ask the statistics a multiplicity of questions you might see something you would disagree with. As a denier or as a reasonable analyst (with the sentiment).

Ask first. Then deny.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 06:51 AM

I am sure there is a correlation, but are the actions of a few morons relevant to the brexit debate.
A vote the other way would probably have induced the same actions from the same morons.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 12:45 PM

but are the actions of a few morons relevant to the brexit debate.

Yes when it becomes a public order issue. By that we (mostly politicians) look to the numbers. And Blaming the Brexit vote is not the same as clammering for another referendum, or asking for the situation to be changed to "our favoured situation".

Ask a question and you get your answers. A referendum is a question. If you don't like the answers you shouldn't ask the question. Call it unintended consequences and I will tell you you are a denier. There are no unintended consequences, only things that you didn't consider, didn't think through, didn't analyse, found to complex to figure (need any more non euphemisms?) er lets be truthful - denied, dismissed. Some people, still denying them.

In this world there is only (analogy alert) spaghetti. Pull one piece and others slither your way. That's life, get over it, and don't duck your responsibility when you gobble. And chew every mouthful like momma told you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 12:51 PM

I see no one has tried to defend David Davis refusal to allow the desemination of information, not only to us the public, but to fellow members of the House of Commons.

See my post 13.10.17 at 08.21am

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 01:06 PM

Dave, what a nasty little post.
Only a nasty person could produce such.

Mr.Red,
Yes when it becomes a public order issue.

Why? It is a public order issue not a Brexit issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 01:11 PM

Oh eh up!! the professor playing the "victim" once again. It really is time he grew up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 01:15 PM

It is a public order issue not a Brexit issue.
It could be both. They are not mutually exclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 04:19 PM

http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/multimedia/poetry-spoken-word/110-heathcote-williams-winston-churchill-great-britain-s-greatest-beast
not sure why i have posted this on this thread. i just feel we need to be reminded - we are not a great nation we are a nasty little island with some weird superiority complex. we (and i) drink too much and are institutionally and socially often racist. our captain mainwaring posturing is ridiculous
without our association with the rest of the continent we are just sad, failing and pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 04:59 PM

Speak for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 07:03 PM

Hey, Mike, for my sins I wasn’t in a p!ace where I could watch the match on Sky so I had to listen to it on Five Live. Actually, those radio commentators should all be knighted! I listened to the whole thing on the edge of my seat, then, right at the end, one of the commentators remarked on what a disappointing spectacle it had been. Well it didn't come across that way on the wireless at all! Anyway, honours even. United, great defence. Liverpool, great going forward, shaky defence but where’s the firepower!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 07:14 PM

And I’ve said it before, maybe in different words, and I’ll say it again. Pete, you’re a great humanitarian and an amazing corrective to some of the unthinking, ignorant philistinism we see on here from the likes of akenaton. I’ve played traditional music for decades and, naively, used to think that folkies were sensitive people, often idealistic maybe, nearly always a bit leftie, always sympathetic and inclusive. This place has gone some way towards disillusioning me. Maybe there’s a decent silent majority out there... Of course, there are lots of good guys and gals here too. But too many of the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 03:51 AM

I don't know, Steve. All the folkie things I've been involved in have been much further left than society in general, but equally there have always been some who aren't. I know someone who has a song about being the only Tory in the folk club.

And I think their presence and criticisms are essential. I said below that I have more respect for those who say Brexit will have problems but on balance they still think it right than I do for those who think it is getting better every day in every way. The same is true for left wing policies: I have more respect for those who realise the cost but think that is worth bearing, than who don't think about it. Let me give an example: at the moment there is a movement to get rid of the 55p per minute phone charge for the Universal Credit help line. I agree - it should go. But these things do not run entirely free. If these costs are offset something will give, either in funding for something else the government does, or income to the phone company, which will probably end up or contribute to some poor soul near the bottom losing their job. That is a hard thought, but in the full understanding it may happen I think the 55p charge should go.

We see the same thing the whole time with NICE: a drug is turned down as too expensive, so a campaign is mounted, pressure is put on the government and the committee and somehow the money is found. The campaigners rarely face up to the fact that in the process they have almost certainly increased the pain and suffering of some other group.

So we need critics to make sure we are properly aware of the implications of decisions we make, because none of us have a full understanding of the issues that might arise. Now it is true that too many of the right stop when they have worked out the balance sheet implications, but some think beyond that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 04:06 AM

Yes, he is, Raggy. I had forgotten that everything has to be about him. I shall try to go back to giving my opinion and making the point just the once.

Thanks for reminding me

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 04:43 AM

Agreed, DMcG, but let's not forget that there are some extremely wealthy people in this country who don't pay their fair share of tax, and our main political parties are obsessed at election time with telling us how tax-cutting they are. One for you nineteen for me is a damn sight fairer than charging people without money 55p a minute to ring a government helpline. Something in between that isn't currently happening would be good.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 05:51 AM

Yes when it becomes a public order issue.

Why? It is a public order issue not a Brexit issue.

we are correlating effect and observation. And laying down possible causes. Deny it and the situation gets worse. Fail to debate it and the situation gets worse. Politicians of all stripes jumped on one side of that one PAL!
We are not doing the hugely humorous equivalent of blaming God's (whoever she is) retribution on Trump for recent hurricanes. We are looking at everything and debating the most significant. Deniers will state "relevance" citing the virtue of the correlation with doubts over cast iron proof of cause.

Declare yourself. Are you a denier, a sweeper under the carpet or an objective pragmatist?

Brexit is not a simple issue. It affect more than tiny minds. Wait for food price hike caused by Global Warming compounded by Brexit/"value of pound" and deny either when it suits! But it won't make it go away.

When I was inventing stuff &/or programming (still am) and had to debug it, I never ever managed to solve a problem by denying it. Tried a few times, and it bit me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 07:09 AM

Hi Steve

Sorry you couldn't watch the game.

I did and it was exciting in parts, mainly when Liverpool were attacking - which was for most of the game.

I think the criticism was because there were no goals. I think Liverpool just shaded it. United came for a point and achieved that.

The game was tense with neither side aware of the tradition of tight games between two great teams.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 07:10 AM

Dave and Raggy, Dave's nasty little post has been deleted.

Mr. Red,
I am not a "denier."

There have been hate crimes associated with brexit, but we should not be influenced by such morons.

Morons do their moronic thing.
They also do it over such issues as abortion and animal experimentation.
We should never let them deter us from discussing these issues, or from trying to reach the right decisions based on intelligent discussion.
The antics of morons are not part of this debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 12:27 PM

Peteaberdeen, your education, knowledge of history and knowledge of the world in general appears to be markedly lacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 02:07 PM

In posting that and saying nothing with any content I'd say that your manners are sadly lacking. What has Pete ever done to you?

"Brexit is not a simple issue."

Too right it isn't. Yet that's how it's been sold to us since the vote. "The British people have given us a simple instruction: we are leaving the EU." So simple. To hell with the implications. Totally undemocratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM

The vote was "IN" or "OUT".........the democratic answer was "OUT" doesn't come any more simple than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 02:25 PM

QED.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 02:37 PM

Even today 15 months after the vote we still are unaware of the implications of leaving the EU.

Not only are we still unaware of the implications but studies made into the subject are being withheld from not only the general public but the MP's we selected to serve in the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM

Dave and Raggy, Dave's nasty little post has been deleted.

I do not believe it was nasty. Truthful maybe and the truth does sometimes hurt. As far as I am concerned that is the end of the story but I suspect you will try to draw it out to make you the victim once again. Most of us are on to your little game Keith and will no longer play along.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 03:05 PM

cheers steve, i do try not to get personal here (mostly) i reckon usually when someone gets insulted it says more about the insulter than the insultee. anyway, i may not know very much but i am capable of understanding that leaving the EU is far more complicated than in/out. any responsible government would do its best to negotiate the best deal it possibly can for 100% of the british people. stomping off in a jingoistic huff will be bad for all of us. obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 03:42 PM

Unfortunately, the dishonest "no deal" groundswell being whipped up by the snarly Tory right is intended to stem the daily bad news, instead painting the EU as a bunch of obstinate, unreasonable bullies. The way these non-negotiations are going, thanks to the buffoon Davis and his unmerry men, the people of this country will turn against brexit, and the buffoons know it. Dishonesty piled on dishonesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 04:27 PM

actually, i'm quite hopeful we may end up with a better deal. i read that a sizable minority of tories will side with the rest of the house to argue against the no deal nonsense. sadly (and predictably) they can't be seen to side with corbyn but will co-operate with his backbenchers in the house. i guess the more rabid brexiteers won't be happy but a bit of realism won't do them any harm. so it will meander on for a few more years until we wonder why we are bothering and then, embarrassed, we will quietly drop the silly idea. of course, the 'nicotine-stained man frog' will croak a bit and stand for election again.....well maybe, we shall, nae doubt, see.....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 03:09 AM

Dave,
I do not believe it was nasty.

It was nasty enough to need deleting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 03:34 AM

I am pretty sure it was just for the bad language, for which I apologise, but no one will ever know will they. I shall refrain from using the phrase coined by our erstwhile colleague from now on and just say that only half the phrase in point was true. Henceforth you shall be Keith 'one half' A.

:D tg

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 03:50 AM

Yet another post about me the victim ............ yawn.

How's about posting something about how well the Brexit negotiations are going................

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 04:06 AM

John McDonnell on Marr:

    “I will not countenance no deal, I’m not willing to countenance that, I don’t think it’s a realistic option…”

Labour would accept any EU deal, however punishing. Great negotiating tactic guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM

Hilary Clinton is not so certain on the benefits of Brexit or to put it more succinctly, she is certain, of their lack. And whatever you think of her she knows about politics. And is unfettered with catching votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 04:27 AM

What else did he say ........ I very much doubt that is all he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:05 AM

Actually that is fine as a negotiating stance. It does not mean that any deal the EU puts forward will be accepted. And there is a lot to be said for adopting a stance the other sides believes rather than one they suspect may just be a bluff.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:07 AM

Let’s have a little think about the vacuous mantra “no deal is better than a bad deal.”

Good deal: give me five quid and I’ll change your wheel for you (both sides happy).

Not a good deal: give me 50p and I’ll change your wheel for you (he’s happy but I’m fleeced, though at least not walking away with nothing).   

No deal: Bugger off and find some other mug to change your wheel for you. I’ll find someone else who needs a wheel changing. If I can, of course. They may only give me three quid, if can actually find them, but I’ll have to take take the risk (he simply shrugs, as there are plenty of tyre bays around, but I’m well miffed - and worried about going away empty-handed and the prospect of getting only bad deals from now on).

A bad deal worse than no deal: I’ll change your wheel for you AND I’ll give YOU a quid.

Well now, tell me how we are ever going to arrive at a bad deal worse than no deal. David Davis and co. may well be a feckless bunch of clowns but even they couldn’t achieve it. It’s a deal or it’s not a deal. The bad deal worse than no deal stuff is just bunkum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:33 AM

Not a good analogy.
No deal means WTO trading, which is how we already successfully trade with the rest of the world and how the rest of the world trades with each other.

It would be nice to have free trade with EU, but not at any price.

Dave, if your post was not nasty even without the obscenities, why not rephrase it?
I will be happy to respond if it is not deleted first.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:40 AM

Well now, tell me how we are ever going to arrive at a bad deal worse than no deal. David Davis and co. may well be a feckless bunch of clowns but even they couldn’t achieve it.

I am not convinced that last bit is true. As my father used to say "Remember there are few things so bad that with a little effort they cannot be made worse.'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:53 AM

To be honest, Keith, it was so unimportant I have forgotten what it was even about apart from the reference your previous epithet.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 07:25 AM

Ah, you ould cynic, DMcG! I suppose we shouldn't put anything past this lot. The point is, Keith, that we are being sold the idea that no deal would be a good thing. This is a subtle way of painting the EU black and stemming the constant flow of bad news from these non-negotiations. I'm not surprised you can't see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 07:54 AM

Of course No deal is better than a Bad deal, even if the Labour party would accept a bad deal.
We have all the aces, the EU are terrified that their Four "Freedoms" are about to be ditched. The Union is about to implode, if we make it clear that we will not be blackmailed, the EU will embark on a damage limitation exercise.

But personally I would like to see No Deal, as it will come to that at some point in the near future.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 08:21 AM

I don't follow, ake. You list all the reasons why you think we could get a good deal and then say you prefer no deal. Even if your premise is true that we would have to move to no deal eventually, getting a good deal now and using it and the time to prepare would seem much more sensible than going into a no deal with a lot of things unsorted, like the borders and airline landing conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 08:37 AM

No deal would be a disaster. Business, science, the fate of EU nationals living here would all be affected badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 10:11 AM

Steve,
The point is, Keith, that we are being sold the idea that no deal would be a good thing.

We are not. You made that up.
It would be better for both sides if free trade was agreed, but not any kind of disaster for us if not.
It is certainly not worth £90b of our money. That would be a bad deal worse than no deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 10:28 AM

It is certainly not worth £90b of our money

That is comparing a one off cost against a recurring annual benefit. A recurring benefit is always better in the long run, as long as the run is long enough. It would be a somewhat laborious exercise for me to do that, but hopefully the treasury etc are. Either way, there is no 'certainly' about ir.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 11:26 AM

Headline in todays Guardian UK Inflation set to hit five year high.

Inflation

As I have said before such inflation hits those least able to afford it hardest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 11:45 AM

No deal is a bad deal. The only good deals are the ones we ain'ta going to have. The EU are in a strong bargaining place. They is 500 million peeps, we is 60. And Germany for one, is traditionally a stronger economy than us.
Of course we could do deals with China - but they is selling, not buying.
We could do deals wiv Twitler but if you listened to Hilary Clinton you would know he is not interested in deals, or trade.
We could sell arms to some countries - they are using them up at a rate, but North Korea seems to provide serious competition, which is what Kim Jong Nam was doing before they decided he was siphoning off too much of the profits.
There are opportunities for trade around the world, but they are "lean pickin" right now. And we ain't selling too well on that front.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 11:46 AM

"That would be a bad deal worse than no deal."

Just out of interest, did ANY of you Brexiters think this through before condemning us and more importantly our children to this mess? It's just that none of you (including the goons in charge) seem to agree on how to go about this, don't seem to have a plan and don't really have a clue to what Brexit actually means. Business is getting nervous, which is the one of the only things that seems to bother Brexiteers, alongside Beefeaters, the aristocracy and British Establishment, Britannia ruling the waves and sticking it up 'em (they don't like it up 'em).

You've fucked it up so badly so far you'd rather drag everyone in the country down the catastrophic path of a no deal clusterfuck and stomp away rather than admit you were wrong and think of an alternative more people could get behind, such as a Norways-style arrangement.

Amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 11:58 AM

The EU are not in a good bargaining place.
We have a trading deficit with them, and a trading surplus with the rest of the world.
We export more outside EU than in and the gap is widening.
Loss of our contribution will leave a huge hole in their economy.
Tarifs will hurt them more than us.

Both sides would benefit from free trade, but it is not worth ?90b to us. That would be a bad deal and much worse than no deal.

Rag,
Headline in todays Guardian UK Inflation set to hit five year high.

Yes. 3%.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 12:31 PM

"The EU are not in a good bargaining place."

Another Brexiteer myth. If you believe this nonsense then so surprise you're at sixes and sevens with each other. The fact is quite of a few of your lot understand the EU is in a perfectly good bargaining position, otherwise we'd be seeing some progress, not the MayBot going grovelling to Macron because she thinks as a free marketeer she shares some sort of common aim. Let's see how that goes.

Meanwhile, the Brexiteers have organised their Chrissy do at Fuller's Brewery but there's ample parking as everyone can drive and will undoubtedly leave sober.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 12:31 PM

Talk about wishful thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 12:43 PM

No "D" getting a deal would mean remaining with Freedom of Movement and that would stop the reorganisation of society which I detailed on another thread and which is imperative if we are to retain anything like our present standard of living.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 12:48 PM

"the reorganisation of society"

Good gawd almighty. Who's drawing up this plan?

Brexiteers aren't reorganising me, they don't have a clue what they're doing (Mudcat passim).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 01:48 PM

'reorganisation of society' ? i'm assuming you mean fairer, more diverse, more inclusive and above all more compassionate? (or some sort of combination of the usual humanitarian wish list) - i'm all for all that stuff

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 03:09 PM

I guess you are being ironic, Peter, but just in case, no he doesn't. He wants an end to people from Europe, particularly Eastern Europe, invading his 'sceptered isle;. He wants an end to treating people fairly om the grounds of sexual preference and he wants women back in their place at the kitchen sink. Like the good old days of family values, wife beating and child abuse.

Apart from that, you got it right :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 03:23 PM

"Rag,Headline in todays Guardian UK Inflation set to hit five year high............... Yes. 3%."

What ignorance and arrogance.

If the cost of living increases by 3% and your income doesn't you're in s*** street. If you're at the lowest end of society, struggling now, a 3% increase is devastating.

If someone cannot comprehend this simple equation they must be a complete idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 04:20 PM

'Bad Deal' is used as something to compare with 'No Deal'. But we already know what 'No Deal is. 'No Deal' is trading on WTO rules. As has been said earlier, we do this already with countries outside the EU. The means of doing this are in place and functioning. A 'Bad Deal' with the EU is anything worse than this. What's the problem? Are you trying to confuse those people who don't have the intelligence to make this distinction? There may not be all that many of them to confuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 04:29 PM

Don't confuse them with truth Stan.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 04:50 PM

i'm not that bothered about the money . more important is the people thing. our daughter lives in estonia and is a printer in a cultural centre and an artist. her estonian boyfriend is a really good feller and works with computers and in the arts. they are both lovely young people (really, you would like them) but won't meet them as they won't be earning enough to come and live here if they wanted to. you leavers don't want to give them the chance but there is no objection to mega rich billionaires buying up streets in london and elsewhere and messing up the housing market for all our people. the EU is partly about peace and partly about improving links between previously warring nations. sod that. give me hate - you broken, bitter people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:05 PM

One of the joys of posting after 'Pop Oclock' is bizarre answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:11 PM

what does this mean, stan? what is 'pop o'clock' and when is it where you live? i'm off any pop and tucked up in bed on a wet and windy west coast night.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:17 PM

(WTO rules) The means of doing this are in place and functioning. A 'Bad Deal' with the EU is anything worse than this.?

But ake has said things substantially better than that are a bad deal if free movement is part of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 06:28 PM

When you hear any Tory or any other right-winger talking about no deal, just be aware of their dishonest agenda. Two weeks ago no deal was persona non grata. So what?s changed? What?s changed is that anything like a half-decent deal has receded into the distance. Therefore, they say, let?s talk up no deal. And what can we set that against to make it sound better? Why, the mythological bad deal, of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 06:31 PM

Blimey, can?t get used to this new Apple keyboard!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 06:56 PM

Certainly after Pop Oclock.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 07:08 PM

You're being disingenuous Steve, although I am neither a "Tory" nor a "right winger", I did vote to leave and have stated consistently that it is preferable we leave without any deal which ties us to Free Movement, or control by the ECJ.
The EU are unwilling and indeed unable to meet these conditions, so it must be "Walk Away".

Free Movement has always been the biggest obstacle immigration control was the greatest driver of the Brexit vote and no realistic societal change is possible until it is outlawed in the UK.
Reliance on immigrant labour is counter productive in the long AND short term, it is also parasitical in nature and anti socialist, it is indeed an economic tool of the capitalist system.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 07:21 PM

Nah, you?re not a Tory nor a right-winger. You are a pathetic, bigoted and extremely confused man. Nothing you say here ever makes sense. Go and roof a house or two, keep yourself fully occupied in so doing and fer chrissake take as long as you like.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 03:49 AM

In Steve's world of equality, roofers are too stupid to have or express opinions.
I'll let you into a secret Steve, people like me contribute more to society than snobbish ex-schoolteachers.
Your failings in comprehension and expression have been well exposed lately by someone of real intelligence and logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:13 AM

Rag,
If the cost of living increases by 3% and your income doesn't you're in s*** street. If you're at the lowest end of society, struggling now, a 3% increase is devastating.
If someone cannot comprehend this simple equation they must be a complete idiot.

Historically, 3% is a low rate of inflation.
It is only 1.5% more than EU inflation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:16 AM

Meanwhile the bad news piles in. No progress from May yesterday, the French and Germans demanding a harder line...Va te faire foutre avec votre pie-in-the-sky trade deal aspirations...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:18 AM

3% inflation. Nurses pay rise capped at 1%. Nurses are worse off. What is so difficult to understand?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM

3% is double 1.5%. At 1.5% pay could just about keep pace. At 3% the living standards of ordinary working people are hit hard. But never mind. According to you Tory types we?re all in it together...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:21 AM

The effects of "No Deal" ......... an article in todays Guardian.


Implications of No Deal

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:34 AM

Of course this would come on top of the fall in living standard caused by the current rise in the cost of living.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:35 AM

Calm down lads, I remember inflation rates in double figures under a Labour govt....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:39 AM

I remember inflation rates in double figures under a Labour govt

What was the standard pay rise rate and interest on savings?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM

Not only a Labour Government but Conservative Governements too Akenaton as you well know.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 05:35 AM

"You're being disingenuous Steve, although I am neither a "Tory" nor a "right winger""

Guffaw!!!!!! Brexit, Farage, Trump, defending Nazis, extremely vocal homophobia (hmmm), hating the poor etc etc

Then...

"Reliance on immigrant labour is counter productive in the long AND short term, it is also parasitical in nature and anti socialist, it is indeed an economic tool of the capitalist system."

Xenophobic codanglers based on nothing to do with the real world. This is utter shite of the highest possible purity and ignorance and is not a statement based on reality but is a statement born of hatred and gullibility in the face of alt-reich propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 06:38 AM

Stu, have a look at Jim Sillars social and political views, they are nearer to mine than any other politician that I know.
Would you say that he is all the things you call me, or is it simply that you have run out of ideas on this forum and fall back on an abusive defence of your ideology?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 08:25 AM

I don't have an ideology. I do however give a shit about people, especially those disadvantaged.

Jim Sillars is just another gobshite politician, although I don't recall him being a xenophobe or homophobe, but then I don't follow Scottish politics with quite the zeal a Scot might.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 09:23 AM

A BBC report today from the OECDwhich states that reversing the Brexit vote would boost the UK economy.

OECD Report

It also makes comment about a "No Deal" situation none of which are beneficial to the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 09:47 AM

Interest rates 3% and rising. Come on you Brexiteers, you're giving us all the kicking we so richly deserve!

Meanwhile, everyone else is blaming everyone else for the fuckups in the negotiations. Except of course those of us that are part of the 48% as the Brexiteers don't ask its or value our opinions. So we are actually NOT to blame. Ha!

Tick tock tick tock tick tock...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 10:11 AM

Meanwhile, everyone else is blaming everyone else for the fuckups in the negotiations. Except of course those of us that are part of the 48% as the Brexiteers don't ask its or value our opinions. So we are actually NOT to blame. Ha!

Surely you know the 48% are to blame for talking the country down?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 10:14 AM

Of course the OECD is a completely non partisan organisation with a membership including all the EU member countries. This obviously means there can be absolutely no bias in their utterings, and those that believe this automatically get lifetime membership of the tooth fairy appreciation society.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 10:36 AM

I suppose you were being ironic "d", but the 48% are to blame for making negotiations more difficult. Most of them
have come to terms with the fact that we are leaving, but cling on to some vain hope that we can remain in the CU and retain some form of "Free Movement".

If they genuinely had the country's interests at heart they would not be taking every opportunity to put the boot into our negotiating team.

Every point scored is propaganda for the EU and believe me they are watching carefully what is going on in the UK.....all internal opposition means we leave on worse terms than we could negotiate if we put up a united front.

You are correct on one point, I want the deal to be so bad that our negotiators are unable to accept it and we sever all ties with the Political Union

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 10:38 AM

Ah, another sage uttering from one of the 52%. How's them negotiations going old boy?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 10:45 AM

From: Stu - PM
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 09:47 AM
Meanwhile, everyone else is blaming everyone else for the fuckups in the negotiations. Except of course those of us that are part of the 48% as the Brexiteers don't ask its or value our opinions. So we are actually NOT to blame. Ha!

Might be a good argument if it were true.
75% of the Cabinet, including the PM were among that 48%.

Are you seriously saying that if Brexit goes 'tits up', no blame can be placed on Mrs May?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 11:09 AM

The OECD also includes Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Israel, Chile, Japan, Mexico, Norway, Switzerland, Turkey and the United States.

So they are obviously biased towards the EU?

Do you believe in the tooth fairy then Iains?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 11:23 AM

According to Rag's Guardian article, food prices will actually fall after brexit if we buy food tariff free on the world market, which I am sure we would do.

We are currently forced by the EU to impose tariffs on food imported from outside EU. That is very cruel to struggling developing nations desperate to sell their agricultural produce.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 11:47 AM

No it doesn't say that at all does it professor, you're making things up ....... again.

The article says that "some conservative MP's have said that prices would fall............."

Seeing as these politicians along with the rest of us have been denied access to reports commissioned by David Davis on the effect of Brexit on industry, they cannot seriously make any such claims.

If you believe them I would suggest you are a bigger fool than even I take you for.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 12:04 PM

"If you believe them I would suggest you are a bigger fool than even I take you for. "

Raggytash, it's quite obvious neither you nor Keith are "fools", what's the point of continually name calling and being insulting?
Why not try to discuss things civilly?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM

The OECD burblings are simply that. They have no data to make projections with, simply assumptions. It is a forecast and economic forecasts are even less accurate than weather forecasts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 12:26 PM

Do I detect you are moving the goalposts Iains? My word I think I do!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 12:35 PM

Raggytash. You have a vivid imagination, if little else!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 01:12 PM

Slides for the OECD Report, for those interested. I can't find an actual report, so if someone else does, please link to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 02:12 PM

The OECD, originally the OEED, was founded in France and has it's headquarters in France. You're not trying to tell us all that it could be biased on a subject like Brexit. What possible motive could there be for that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 05:31 PM

"The OECD burblings are simply that. They have no data to make projections with, simply assumptions. It is a forecast and economic forecasts are even less accurate than weather forecasts."

Right. So you're saying that the OECD is less qualified to judge whether brexit is a good idea than an ignorant British electorate who voted on the basis of a bus slogan, a million vacuous utterances about "taking back control" and a load of Farage xenophobia. Riiiight...

You brexiteers are scared. You hear bad news every day. Today it was May's failed dinner date and the OECD utterances. The inflation news was great too, wasn't it? That was also a consequence of the leave vote and the ensuing collapse of the pound. I do admire your brave faces. Deep down, just like the rest of us, you know that if brexit goes ahead we are completely stuffed. I advise you not to laugh or sneer at that, because in six months' time we'll still be here to remind you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 06:04 PM

And come on now, you Tories... Iains, Keith, Bill, Stanron, akenaton... right, the OECD is making you shift uncomfortably from one buttock to another, Theresa's dinner chat-up lines with Jean-Claude were a failure, the inflation figures look shit (all brexit's fault due to the collapsed pound), growth worse than other major EU countries, productivity shite, and now Amber and brexit Doc Liam are at odds over no deal... your side are in total disarray, the country is rudderless and it isn't funny. We are half way from the brexit vote to leaving date and bugger all has happened. What you gonna do? Stay paralysed?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 06:21 PM

Don't forget postponing the committee stage of this .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 07:34 PM

Grim times ahead. Thank you very much, spineless call-me-Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 03:00 AM

"The risk, however, must be that with so much to debate and a limited time to do it in we will lose sight of the wood for the trees. Both MPs and ministers are going to have to focus on the key issues if the necessary changes are to be made to improve the Bill."

Exactly the point, stop whining and show some positivity any more obstructions and the government will have no alternative than to walk away. The 75% of MPs with their eyes on the EU trough are trying to sabotage the democratic will of the electorate.

It is the obstructionists in parliament and in the country who have delayed the progress towards Brexit.

IMO the Union has about five years before it completely disintegrates, we should be moving fast to get the new trading regime up and running rather than be delayed by self serving MPs and deranged ideologues.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 03:10 AM

"the EU is partly about peace and partly about improving links between previously warring nations."

Well you got that right Pete - it was set up to keep two specific European countries from each others throats - France and Germany - that is ALL the EU project has ever been a cosy club run for THEIR specific benefit, it has rules which THEY (Particularly France) can ignore and amend whenever they chose.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 03:31 AM

Steve Shaw - 16 Oct 17 - 07:21 PM

"You are a pathetic, bigoted and extremely confused man. Nothing you say here ever makes sense. Go and roof a house or two, keep yourself fully occupied in so doing and fer chrissake take as long as you like."

Yet another example of Shaw's reasoned and informed debating skills.

"No Deal" means we leave and trade with every other country in the world in accordance with WTO rules, we also leave without paying the EU a single penny. Very dangerous for the EU if we do that and it is seen to work - How many more of their remaining 27 members will think of jumping ship?

A "Bad Deal" is something that Corbyn & Co would secure for us where we continue to pay in and be messed about by the unelected Commissioners in Brussels. An example of "a bad deal" was the one a former Labour Prime Minister got for us. He negotiated that we received a reduction in the rebate negotiated at Maastricht in return for the EU revising, reducing and working towards the abolition of the CAP. WE did get the reduced rebate and the EU did S.F.A. about the CAP payments (France benefits too much from them - cosy club rules remember?).

By the way Shaw - "Go and roof a house or two, keep yourself fully occupied in so doing and fer chrissake take as long as you like." - I believe that Akenaton is retired and he did previously earn his living as a roofer and tiler. A job I believe where anyone who makes a living out of it has to perform to the critical standards set by those employing him to THEIR satisfaction. He has to do that on an everyday basis and he has the job satisfaction of seeing the results of his labours everyday of his life - you on the other hand Shaw just got paid for turning up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 04:13 AM

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

If you can read this Thank a teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 04:21 AM

If you can read this Thank a teacher.

Although that teacher may often be a parent, not a member of the teaching profession.
And a good teacher would have taught about when to use capital letters, and when not to use them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 04:21 AM

The naivety of Shaw's responses are astounding, just toe the party line and question nought. I see we now have the dodgy input of the great philanderer Clinton and his loser wife trying to further muddy the waters of brexit. Do we get a lecture tour by LURCH Maccain to add to our joys?

""You are a pathetic, bigoted and extremely confused man." The usual tactic of Shaw when he has no counter argument, just trot out a few meaningless insults. How original!
Roofing exercises the muscles and the brain and the slightest error is on public display. What does teaching exercise? I hear bullying is a huge problem in the profession. HMMMMMMMMMMM!!!! Makes a person think about the nature of a certain person's posts does it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 04:31 AM

You're quite right Nigel, my Mother taught me to read.



Mind you she was a teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 04:46 AM

Rag,
No it doesn't say that at all does it professor, you're making things up ....... again.
The article says that "some conservative MP's have said that prices would fall............."

Read on Rag. THE REPORT SAYS that prices would get less.
"Some Conservative MPs have said that prices will fall rather than rise as a result of Brexit, because it will be possible for the government to unilaterally reduce all tariffs to zero so consumers can get goods at the cheapest price on the world market.

The report found that under these circumstances, the average household budget would be reduced by ?130 a year"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 04:54 AM

Steve, that negotiations are stalling is no surprise to us.
They can not afford to let us go and will string us along for as long as they can in the hope that we will change our mind.
The utterances of Labour and some Tories encourages them to hope that will happen.

EU food is the most expensive in the world. There is no other market for the food they currently sell us.
EU farmers are very politically active. Especially French farmers.
They will not be happy if priced out of our market by tariffs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:01 AM

Anyone here who reads the meanderings of akenaton and doesn?t think that he?s an extremely confused and bigoted man is, well, either extremely confused themselves or, well, just a little in denial.

Ok, Teribus and Iains. As you are so keen to comment on my teaching career, be kind enough to answer a question or two:

When did you last meet me?

Name the schools in which I taught.

Describe my university and teacher training qualifications.

What were my particular subject areas in each one?

Describe my career path in each school, focusing on tbe positions of responsibility I achieved.

Tell us how many of my lessons you observed.

Give us any evidence, either verbal or written, that you?ve seen from any of my fellow teachers or superiors as to the standard of my classroom performance. Don?t forget to tell us their names so that I can verify your information for you.

If you can?t address these questions (and we all know that you can?t), then I suggest that you desist from making remarks about my teaching. You have as much qualification to do that as I have to comment about the likely deficiencies of your sex lives or any other aspect of your existence that you haven?t told us about. And Iains, it?s bad enough that you indulge in such behaviour, but doubly pathetic that you?re just brainlessly copying the brainless Teribus in so doing. Now back to brexit, chaps!

Ps. Since I updated my iPad the keyboard rigorously replaces any apostrophe I insert with a question mark. I?ve just been through the post correcting them, but as soon as I hit preview they?re back again.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:19 AM

And you believe the Government would " unilaterally reduce all tariffs to zero so consumers can get goods at the cheapest price on the world market"

Dream on sunshine.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:34 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENiMyzyex8w

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:36 AM

Incidentally, if I were a supplier to the UK post Brexit I would put my price up safe in the knowledge that the UK could not buy from the EU (without paying a premium).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:38 AM

I'll give them one thing Iains, unlike the Government they were all singing from the same song sheet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:39 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:19 AM
And you believe the Government would " unilaterally reduce all tariffs to zero so consumers can get goods at the cheapest price on the world market"
Dream on sunshine.

It's no less likely than the possibility of us retaining the 'protectionist' tariffs which we current charge because of the EU, in order to protect the wine producers in France Germany, Italy & Spain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:42 AM

?They? are not stringing us along, Keith. Cameron promised to trigger Article 50 the morning after the referendum. It took us nine nonths. Then May called an extremely ill-advised election which threw her party into total disarray, causing further delay. The Tories are split down the middle, squabbling among themselves, as we saw yesterday. What are the EU negotiators supposed to do about negotiating partners in that state? Quite rightly, they want to know what the financial settlement will be before they start talking turkey. You can?t get the decorators in before you?ve shown that you?ve actually bought the house. The financial, residential and border issues must be resolved before you start talking trade. That?s the right order of doing things. The confusion and disarray on OUR side is what?s holding things up. By the way, if we have legal obligations to pay the EU on leaving, we won?t get out of them just by walking away. They will get their money anyway and we?ll spend years in a costly, energy-sapping and hostile legal morass until they do. There is no stringing along going on. You should be looking at the feckless Tory Party and feeling extremely worried about the shambles they are getting us ever deeper into. I know I am and I know that it?s pointless looking for someone else to blame, as you constantly do. There?s a lot of hubris over the exit bill and a lot of fear of the Tory right going on. As I said before, that 60 billion is going to look like a drop in the ocean next to the damage that a no-deal brexit is going to do us. By the way, any trade ramifications after brexit will be disseminated among 27 other countries their end whereas we will bear the whole brunt our end. It?s nonsensical to claim that they need us more than we need them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:45 AM

Raggytash. I hate to have to admit it but your response did raise a quick snigger.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:55 AM

Glad to have given a bit of amusement Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 06:00 AM

You can't get the decorators in before you've shown you own the house.
I've just had a kitchen extension and new kitchen & decoration. No-one asked for proof of ownership of the property.

The financial, residential and border issues must be resolved before you start talking trade. That's the right order of doing things.
I certainly didn't (and wouldn't) agree with (and promise to pay) their estimate of the cost without first being clear about exactly what I would be paying for.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 06:09 AM

Presumably all your stuff was in the rest of the house, you?d been known in the area for years, all your other ducks were in a row and there was mutual trust founded on a little more than just fresh air. And no-one has said that we must pay their estimate of the cost. What they ARE saying in effect is that we must drop the little-Englander Tory hubris and negotiate sensibly about what we need to pay on exit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 06:34 AM

What they ARE saying in effect is that we must drop the little-Englander Tory hubris and negotiate sensibly about what we need to pay on exit.
But the UK has shown it is prepared to negotiate sensibly.
"Sensible" doesn't mean rolling over and agreeing to pay a bill for which no justification has been provided. The EU appear to have plucked a figure 'out of thin air' which they believe is enough to give them an upper hand in negotiations, and compensate them for losing one of the biggest contributors to their little club.
If the figure hasn't been 'plucked from thin air' then surely they should be able to show how they arrived at the figure.
Not a lot to ask, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 07:07 AM

to keep two specific European countries from each others throats - France and Germany

I think the intention of the EEC was bigger and more complex than that. Like all the spouting on Brexit, talking about single aspects is fine, but claims that one aspect of the moment is so important that it can, to all intents and purposes, be considered as the only aspect is .................

well let us just say "take yer blinkers off".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 07:12 AM

It goes without saying of course, that before Britain stumps up another penny, we have fully audited EU accounts to peruse. After all a sovereign nation would not want to be seen encouraging any criminality.
I suspect such a demand would cause absolute chaos within the corrupt EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 07:12 AM

No deal is better than a bad deal.

Now no-one probably thought they would ever read those words from myself. However there is a rider and that is it would be better for the EU.

Todays Guardian article.

No Deal better than a bad deal

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 07:14 AM

No Deal better than a bad deal

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM

"What they ARE saying in effect is that we must drop the little-Englander Tory hubris and negotiate sensibly about what we need to pay on exit."
In the real world you pay a fee for membership to join a club. Not paying the fee means loss of membership. Same with the EU.
For Shaw. This is the same as the AA. Pay a fee annually for cover - don't pay and on yer bike matey!
The EU has a novel concept that will gain few acolytes. You pay a fee to leave a dysfunctional club.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM

And you believe the Government would " unilaterally reduce all tariffs to zero so consumers can get goods at the cheapest price on the world market"

Yes. The government is actively seeking tariff free trade outside EU.
Why would they impose tariffs on food imports to replace the tariff free food we currently buy?
Dream on Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 07:51 AM

If you recall:

"Some Conservative MPs have said that prices will fall rather than rise as a result of Brexit, because it will be possible for the government to unilaterally reduce all tariffs to zero so consumers can get goods at the cheapest price on the world market."

It may have escaped your notice but other governments can apply tariffs too. Therefore it is not feasible for the UK government to unilaterally reduce all tariffs to zero.

However that is one small part of an article that indicates the cost of living WILL increase, and that puts an even bigger burden on those less able to afford it.

Yet another example of the "caring" conservatives "building a country that works for everyone"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 07:53 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:42 AM
?They? are not stringing us along, Keith. Cameron promised to trigger Article 50 the morning after the referendum. It took us nine nonths.

You may not recall, but it was the remainers who successfully delayed the triggering of Article 50 by taking the matter through the courts (once David Cameron had gone). Mrs may would probably have triggered it much sooner otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM


You may not recall, but it was the remainers who successfully delayed the triggering of Article 50 by taking the matter through the courts (once David Cameron had gone). Mrs may would probably have triggered it much sooner otherwise.

Not so: the case before the court was whether it requires Parliament or could just be done by the government. She could have triggered it as early as she liked by bringing it to Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 08:05 AM

Rag,
It may have escaped your notice but other governments can apply tariffs too.

It may have escaped your notice that NO government applies tariffs to its exports! Why would our government impose tariffs on food imports to replace the tariff free food we currently buy?

Your latest Guardian article is by Jens Geier who is a German SPD member of the European parliament and vice chair of the European parliament?s budget committee.
He talks bollocks.
He says they wont miss us buying BMWs because they are "big sellers worldwide."
They will because they already sell all they can to the rest of the world. If we switch to Japanese and Far East manufacturers they will lose those sales.
They certainly can not sell elsewhere the food we currently buy because it is the most costly in the world despite subsidising EU farmers.

No deal means EU goods become more expensive to us, but we do not have to buy them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 08:30 AM

Read the first line of the attachment.

Tariffs

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:06 AM

Steve Shaw - 18 Oct 17 - 05:01 AM

Thanks for all of that, only trouble is Shaw, none of that alters the fact that you got paid for attendance - Akenaton "the roofer and tiler", the person you rather disparagingly advised to "go roof a house", got paid for performance - every single day of his working life.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:13 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM
You may not recall, but it was the remainers who successfully delayed the triggering of Article 50 by taking the matter through the courts (once David Cameron had gone). Mrs may would probably have triggered it much sooner otherwise.
Not so: the case before the court was whether it requires Parliament or could just be done by the government. She could have triggered it as early as she liked by bringing it to Parliament.

But clearly she would not have a free hand to trigger Brexit. It would have to be put to parliament. That takes time, so some delay is required.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:15 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Teribus - PM
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:06 AM"

"Thanks for all of that, only trouble is Shaw, none of that alters the fact that you got paid for attendance"

So if Steve had gone to the school, sat in a classroom and not taught the children he would still have:

1. Been paid?
2. Kept his job?

We know your opinion of education is something along the lines of "I graduated from the university of life, me" but once again you demonstrate your complete and utter lack of understanding of anything to do with the educational system.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:28 AM

Yes, don?t be so ridiculous, Bill, as you?ll only encourage your pallid copycat poodle, who has shown this morning that he understands nothing about the responsibilities that come with EU membership.

Nonsense, Nigel. How can we negotiate sensibly when we have a weak government split down the middle with a pile of horseshit-talk from one side braying about no deal and with no-one able to sensibly negotiate (and don?t mention the Davis clown, purrrlease...)? No-one, including the EU, wants us to roll over. Maybe you are one of those people, like all of UKIP and half the Tories, who just think we should tell the silly foreign sods that they are not getting a penny...

And now the great brexit bill is knackered for yet a few more weeks until someone somewhere in an office who actually understands how to draft things can make sense of it. And Keith sez it is them stringing us along...

Whether you?re a brexiteer or not, you should be very worried about the shower we have running the country (allegedly running, more accurately) who can?t agree among themselves and who are proving themselves to be disastrous at negotiating. What a shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:32 AM

Hi

AS every one here is talking about how we should negotiate etc etc

We have just returned from spending a week at a hotel in Llandudno.

On the evening before our leaving we were given a detailed bill of what we spent so that we cloud examine and check it for validity. We checked the bill and we agreed with what they say we spent.

Shouldn't this be how the the Brexit negotiations should work. ??

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:37 AM

The Tories are more scared about being seen by the Daily Mail to be giving in than they are concerned about addressing our responsibilities, Mike.

Nil-seven, eh!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:42 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:28 AM Nonsense, Nigel. How can we negotiate sensibly when we have a weak government split down the middle with a pile of horseshit-talk from one side braying about no deal and with no-one able to sensibly negotiate (and don?t mention the Davis clown, purrrlease...)? No-one, including the EU, wants us to roll over. Maybe you are one of those people, like all of UKIP and half the Tories, who just think we should tell the silly foreign sods that they are not getting a penny...

Yes, (ignoring all the crass invective you've included in that sentence) I do believe we shouldn't pay a penny, . . . unless the EU can justify why they believe it is payable, and we can agree their reasons.

Perhaps you would like to suggest the amount that should be paid, the ?20bn we've already offered, the Euro100bn that the EU are asking for, or some other figure?
Whatever figure you arrive at, how is it either derived, or justified?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:46 AM

This is a totally irrelevant post to see if my old iPad does those damned question marks too. So here goes:

"I can't, shouldn't and won't love you!" She exclaimed. "It's not right!"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:48 AM

Aha. So it's either my iPad mini, my iPad mini not agreeing with Mudcat or something to do with the latest IOS update (which I haven't done yet on this old iPad). Weird. Yes Nigel? You were saying?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:55 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:48 AM
Weird. Yes Nigel? You were saying?

What I was saying is only two comments down the thread. I'm sure you can access that.
I note that my symbol for UK pounds has also been changed to a question mark.
I will try to avoid repeating that error as I know just how annoying it can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 11:57 AM

Rag, that may be the definition but no government applies tariffs to its own exports. Only imports.
Steve, both Labour and Tories are split on this.
However good our negotiators, EU have to string us along. They can not afford to lose either our contribution or our market. Their only hope is that we change our mind and stay, so they will never make us a fair offer to leave.

Free trade would be beneficial and might be worth paying for, but how can we agree a price until we know what the trade deal is?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 12:10 PM

I think that the description (link above) on Wikipedia may be being miss-read:
A tariff is a tax on imports or exports between sovereign states.
In most (if not all) cases, it will be a charge imposed for allowing goods into the country which applies the tariff.
But, of course, an import into one country can also be considered as an export from another county, hence the confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 12:26 PM

I'm far too kind to dwell on that egregious example of semi-literate writing in your post, Nigel.

Keith, it isn't Labour who are supposed to be doing the negotiating. It isn't Labour leading us up shit creek without a paddle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 01:36 PM

Will you tell us what UK negotiators have done wrong Steve?
The UK negotiators are not at fault.
Those politicians who undermine their position are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 02:19 PM

Will you tell us what UK negotiators have done wrong

They have not done anything wrong by virtue of the fact that they have done nothing full stop. Who are these politicians that undermine their positions anyway? It cannot be Labour ones as they are not in power. We can only conclude that you must mean Tory ones. Proving that the whole party is in disarray, a shambles and unfit to lead a chimps tea party let alone serious negotiations and a country.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM

Nope. The buck stops with the government. If anything ever went wrong in past administrations you blame Blair/Brown/Callaghan/Wilson, and I blame Thatcher/Major Cameron/May. Exactly how it should be. Well, you may also blame, incorrectly, the unions too, but that's your problem. The MPs who are not giving a ramshackle and visionless Tory government carte blanche are doing the job we elected them to do, to scrutinise every move the government tries to make and hold it to account. We call it "democracy," Keith. One job they've done well so far is to prevent them from pushing through measures on the quiet that require parliamentary scrutiny. Remember all that taking back control stuff? Well it wasn't supposed to be about giving private control over thousands of pieces of legislation to a bunch of squabbling, split-down-the-middle ne'er-do-wells, was it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 02:27 PM

Hi Steve

It seems to me that both sides ( UK & EU ) don't have Accountants that know what they are doing by not keeping transaction records - they should be available on each side.

<" Nil-seven, eh!!! ">

Yes I watched some of it. They really didn't have much opposition on the night. Certainly not anything that could catch Liverpool in this mood. Phew !! First they smothered the opposition in mid-field and then converted that into a most powerful attack. .....and it could have been more.

I am just preparing to watch Man United v Benfica. Don't think this will be 7-0.

Regards Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 02:39 PM

The great thing was that the goal difference gulf between Liverpool and Sevilla widened by eleven goals on the night. Could come in handy!

It wouldn't surprise me if the transaction records are all over the shop. My bank account's a bit like that...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 03:30 PM

Professsor, do you actually know anything about Economics, for example could you tell everyone about the Multiplier factor.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 03:32 PM

Come to think of it, do you know the difference between Macro and Micro Economics.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:09 PM

You might as well ask him if he knows the difference between a Big Mac and Big Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 03:24 AM

There is the official narrative, and there is the real narrative.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4994802/Germany-wants-comprehensive-free-trade-deal-UK.html

I cannot think why clot corbyn is going to Brussels for talks.
Capitulation maybe? The man is a saboteur!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 03:55 AM

It must be true because it is in the Daily Mail?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:11 AM

Dave,
Will you tell us what UK negotiators have done wrong

They have not done anything wrong by virtue of the fact that they have done nothing full stop. Who are these politicians that undermine their positions anyway? It cannot be Labour ones as they are not in power

It takes two to negotiate Dave.
Presumably you do know that it is EU side refusing to discuss trade or citizens' rights, not us.

Politicians from all parties who suggest we will accept anything rather than walk, or that we are not serious about leaving, undermine our negotiating position.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM

Rag,
Professsor, do you actually know anything about Economics

Can you actually identify something I have got wrong Rag?
No.
You have actually displayed your complete ignorance about tariffs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:23 AM

Dave,
It must be true because it is in the Daily Mail?

The Guardian article Rag put up yesterday was lacking in truth.

The Mail leaked document story also now appears in many papers including the Independent and International Business Times, so it probably is true.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-talks-eu-leaders-dinner-theresa-may-uk-rebuff-setback-citizens-a8007746.html
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-leaked-documents-reveal-eu-will-begin-trade-talks-britain-december-1643030

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:33 AM

It takes two to negotiate Dave.

It does. So how does that detract from my comment that the negotiators had not done anything?

The Mail leaked document story also now appears in many papers including the Independent and International Business Times

It must be true because it is in more than one newspaper?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:33 AM

I haven't yet loomed at the others, or even the detail of the IB link you provided but I was immediately struck bt the difference betwwen the heading and subheading of the article:

PBrexit leaked documents reveal EU will begin trade talks with Britain in December

Trade talks could begin in December if EU leaders agree.


"Will" becomes "could?" And conditional? Bit of a turn before we even reach the article itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:54 AM

D the G. Are you also in the unfortunate postion on believing nought unless first perused in the guardian?
Why do you still confuse the message with the messenger?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:17 AM

I cannot even begin to enlighten you about economics, one because you wouldn't take heed and two because I cannot be arsed. You obviously have read or perhaps understood the link I provide about tariffs. Continue to live in ignorance if you choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:38 AM

Interesting read from an EU perspective in a Guardian piece by Jens Geier, a German MEP. The bolds are mine.

A British departure without an agreement would certainly be painful for the rest of the bloc. But it wouldn't be fatal. A single market containing 27 member states and with trade agreements around the world can handle the departure of one large country. Prosecco and BMWs are, after all, big sellers worldwide. But with neither a withdrawal agreement nor a transitional period, there would not be so much as a feather to soften the British economy's hard landing. Brexit can't change the simple fact that a bloc of 450 million citizens is greater than one of 65 million. And with less than 18 months left, the UK is nowhere near prepared for a doomsday scenario, given the thousands of extra customs officials, regulators and additional systems that will be needed in the event of no deal.

If there is any truth in May's mantra, then it is the other way around: the EU's interests may be better served by a no-deal divorce than by an agreement that puts its foundations at risk if Britain gets an a la carte Brexit. And that's not a bluff. In the European parliament we have made clear that we won't approve any advance in the negotiations towards a future EU-UK relationship until the foundations for this bridge are laid: solutions over citizens' rights and the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and the settlement of the UK's financial obligations. Without an agreement, a transitional period will not be granted. This is not meant as punishment for a departing country. It is about settling the accounts. It's the interests of EU citizens and the preservation and prosperity of the union that determine our approach to the negotiations...

...May and her cabinet must finally put the national interest ahead of managing the Conservative party's internal conflict, and agree where they are heading. The European commission is your negotiating counterpart, not a counsellor to listen to you wrestle with doubts and divisions. How can we make sustainable progress when nobody knows if the prime minister is able to deliver, or whether her statements will be undermined by members of her cabinet? The British leadership is lacking in credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:42 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 12:26 PM
I'm far too kind to dwell on that egregious example of semi-literate writing in your post, Nigel.

Why, thank you. You do not even state what the 'egregious' example is, but I will take it as a compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:48 AM

Sounds like a perfect summation to me.

But remember, there is an immensely powerful cadre of immensely wealthy people who are immensely influential on both the policies of the Conservative Party, and on the easily-influenced part of the UK population. And it's this cadre that is driving the steady progress to a Hard BrexShit. Not because it's good for the country and its population, but because it's good for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:55 AM

The real beauty of leaving the EU is that is good for everyone.
When the remainers stop remoaning we will have a unity which we have not seen for decades. A new start, a new society, new rules and hopefully new politics.

Party politics have been the ruin of the UK and most of the developed world.....time to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:00 AM

That article was in both today's and yesterday's Guardian, oddly, so apologies to Raggytash who linked to it yesterday. I did look - honest!

Have a look at your post again, Nigel, and be sure not to misread it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:15 AM

The EU needs to ignore the blustering of incompetent little shits like Davis and May and guarantee the 100% of the rights and benefits of EU membership to every UK citizen who wants it on the grounds that we are all EU citizen, and they must not be allowed to discriminate against us.

The EU must gaurantee that the UK will not treat UK citizen who ar ein relationship, or will be in relationships in the future with people from other EU states as second class citizen but will guaantee unhindered freedom of movement in both directions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:17 AM

"A new start, a new society, new rules and hopefully new politics"

And pots of Jasper and spittoons of Jade, everyone will be a millionaire, the sun will shine all year long and the beer will be free .....................

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:21 AM

Yeah, like that permanent sign behind the bar in the Bullers Arms, "Free beer tomorrow."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:28 AM

Q1. D the G. Are you also in the unfortunate postion on believing nought unless first perused in the guardian?

A1. Never have. The media is all biased. Some are worse than others. Any reference I make to any media is usually a direct contradiction to a view expounded elsewhere. Just shows that the same events can be reported in multiple and often opposite ways.

Q2. Why do you still confuse the message with the messenger?

A2. Never have. But if the messenger consistently contorts the truth they should be challenged about it. See A1, above.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM

And under these new rukes - what makes you think you have the right to dictate to people who is and who is no longer entitled to live togather in a pre-exisiting relationships. If the government split up UK couples then you would be the first to start whining.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM

Dave,
So how does that detract from my comment that the negotiators had not done anything?
I took it to be a criticism of one side, in support of Steve.
Good to know you were not supporting his case.

It must be true because it is in more than one newspaper?
It is much more likely to be, yes.
The Independent has a reputation for honest and reliable reporting.

Rag.
You obviously have read or perhaps understood the link I provide about tariffs.

Yes both thanks. It was only a wiki page on tariffs. It did not contradict anything I have said. Can you find anything that does? No.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:39 PM

I dunno if I am supporting anything or not, Keith. I am sure Steve needs no help from me. All I am saying is that the so called negotiators are not negotiating just as the so called government is not governing. A right shower of shits conducting a shambles of a show. How's that for alliteration!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:53 PM

Well I was going to ask you to lend me a tenner, Dave...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:14 PM

Well, I was merely suggesting that you worked to your strengths. You are likely a damn good roofer. Who knows. But you are not a damn good member of this forum. You exhibit homophobia and xenophobia routinely and demonstrate that, basically, you understand nothing about anything. That's a weakness, so do us a favour and stick to what you're good at. Up that ladder, my man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 03:25 AM

Greg!!!   where have you been? Donuel has been trying to fill in for you......but its not the same :0)....Welcome back.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 03:31 AM

The Public mood seems to be hardening in relation to our exit from the EU, the Question Time audience heard out the Myth Spinners in stony silence while those who proposed walking away were cheered.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 03:37 AM

They are all mad as hatters!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4724330/jeremy-corbyn-heralded-as-the-uks-new-prime-minister-by-leftie-eu-leaders/
Perhaps we should renovate a cellar in the tower for the treacherous twerp's return.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 03:40 AM

At present there are 28 EU member states of which only 9 of them are net contributors. The UK is the second largest contributor after Germany. Of course the EU does not want us to leave, we pay in far too much for what we in return get out of it.

At present we buy more from the EU than the EU buys from us. Of course the EU does not want us to leave, we are one of their best customers.

We leave with "No deal" and we trade with the rest of the world. This releases us from the current tariffs that the EU applies to goods coming from outside the EU. We are free to negotiate our own deals in order to purchase elsewhere what we used to buy from the EU - who are the EU member states going to sell the produce and goods that the UK used to buy to? We leave with "No Deal" and we wave goodbye to about 26 billion (UK's share of what the EU hold but have not yet spent) but we save at least 11 billion a year (A figure that had we remained in the EU would have increased year on year) and we are not saddled with some bill where the figure has just been plucked from thin air without justification or substantiation. Of course the EU does not want us to leave, what a dangerous precedent we would set for their remaining members.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 04:41 AM

Reportedly Mrs May has now offered ?40 billion. When it comes to figures plucked out of the air, the UK seems as prone to it as the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM

"When it comes to figures plucked out of the air, the UK seems as prone to it as the EU."

Why not DMcG? It is the game that they started. So going by what is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander, no-one on the EU side of the fence can possibly object. What it might prompt them to do is have a stab at justifying their 100 billion.

Meanwhile as they witter on about the bill the clock ticks down and they are faced with getting nothing. We on the other hand by today's prices are automatically 11 billion better off every year after 29th March 2019. The EU and Michel Bernard Barnier can threaten all they like, when we leave, and if we leave without a deal, it will be the EU that will be decidedly the worse off - without our yearly ever increasing level of contribution and without our business (We buy more from them than they buy from us remember - we can always buy from elsewhere - who do they sell their new surplus to?).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:24 AM


"When it comes to figures plucked out of the air, the UK seems as prone to it as the EU."

Why not DMcG? It is the game that they started. So going by what is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander, no-one on the EU side of the fence can possibly object.?

Oh, I don't see many in the EU objecting since it sets a new floor on what they can get out of us. On the other hand i can see a lot of Brexiteers objecting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:45 AM

If you think they are playing a game to see how much "they can get out of us" "D", why are you not joining us in supporting Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:48 AM

I should say btw that while 40b came up in a link as a figure raised during a private discussion I have not seen any other reference to it so it is quite possibly an unfounded rumour.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:55 AM

"No deal" is looking better all the time.
And the sooner the better. Let's get on with trading with the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:56 AM


If you think they are playing a game to see how much "they can get out of us" "D", why are you not joining us in supporting Brexit?

Because I was reflecting Teribus' phraseology. It is a 'game' in the game-theorical sense that all negotiations are. In any negotiation you are working for the best deal as you see it, and so are they. For a really good example of political game play, I highly recommend "The Lion in Winter" and the discussion bwtween Henry and French King in particular.

But recognising that aspect of the negotitions is a completely different thing to supporting a hard Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:56 AM

Even worse then DMcG. You criticise and condemn our Prime Minister based on an unconfirmed and unsubstantiated rumour of what MIGHT have been said unofficially in a private conversation? Your post of 20 Oct 17 - 04:41 AM is a total misrepresentation worthy of Shaw or Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 06:07 AM

Well most of us don't recognise a "hard" or "soft" Brexit "D". We are realists who see it in terms of "in the EU" or "out".

Nothing else is on the table.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 06:11 AM

You will note that my 4:41 post began with the word "Reportedly". That was to highlight it was based on a report. I do not yet know if it will be reported anywhere else; it may or may not be. However no as subsequent reports have yet appeared to my knowledge it seemed the most responsible thing to alert people that. I could very easily have just left it and hoped people would not realise. After all you seemed to believe if May has said that it is all fine, so now saying it is slanderous seems an interesting response.

In my book, if I say something that I begin to suspect may turn out to be unfounded, I consider it best to say so, and will continue to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 07:09 AM

You are wriggling DMcG.

DMcG - 20 Oct 17 - 04:41 AM

"Reportedly Mrs May has now offered ?40 billion."

"Reportedly" as used by you above, means that it has been reported but YOU do not necessarily believe that report - All well and good. But then you go on to state - "When it comes to figures plucked out of the air, the UK seems as prone to it as the EU." - which sort of infers that YOU DO BELIEVE the report. Bit of a contradiction there DMcG - so which one is it? It is still a misrepresentation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 07:15 AM

Not wriggling at all, T, but it I don't get into personal arguments so I would be continuing this little diversion any further.

For what it is worth, here are two tweets from Laura Kuenssberg on Oct 20 2017:

10:53am: May does not deny that she has told other leaders privately that she'd be willing to pay many billons more than the initial 20 billion


10:54 But she certainly doesn't confirm it either! Rests on the "we'll go through line by line" answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 07:22 AM

Damn! "Won't be"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM

For what it is worth, here are two tweets from Laura Kuenssberg on Oct 20 2017:
10:53am: May does not deny that she has told other leaders privately that she'd be willing to pay many billons more than the initial 20 billion
10:54 But she certainly doesn't confirm it either! Rests on the "we'll go through line by line" answer.

Firstly, "many billions more than 20 billion" is a very nebulous idea (25bn?). And I would possibly agree with the UK offering more, if the amount was being justified by the EU, or if I could see that it was gaining us some benefit we wouldn't otherwise have received.
Secondly, Laura Kuenssberg hardly appears to be objective when appearing on television about Brexit. This may be despite being employed by BBC, or because of.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:14 AM

Ah yes, Nigel. As soon as the going gets tough, have a bash at the good old Beeb. I'm sure that Barnier and Juncker hang on Laura K's every word. Perhaps you would like her replaced by a Tory sycophant. Pity you can't have Jezza Paxo back. All those years at the helm, then we find out that he was a Tory all along. Tsk. Or you could try Andrew Neil, who worked for the Conservatives in his youth and was once the chairman of the Federation of Conservative students, not to speak of his dalliances with those raving Marxists, Murdoch and the Barclay brothers - or how about Nick Robinson, once chairman of the Young Conservatives, or even his former editor Robbie Gibb who used to work for Francis Maude as his chief of staff. Or how about that nice Tory Chris Patten, former chairman of the BBC trust. Or the charming Kamal Ahmed, filched from his post as executive business editor of those rabid leftie papers the Daily and Sunday Telegraph. Flippin' reds under the beds everywhere at the Beeb, eh!

And we are getting some very simplistic talk from the likes of Teribus. We are not suddenly going to stop selling to and buying from the EU when we leave. After 2019 we will still be driving around in beamers and quaffing Prosecco and eating lots of EU-produced food. Of course, it'll all cost more, and we buy more than we sell. Not only that, with the pound at rock bottom (any bets on a pound buying just 80 cents and one bare US dollar by 2020?), well, I reckon that takes care of your 11 billion a year. Cor, those WTO trade deals had better be good! Anyway, what were you thinking you were going to be doing with it? Give it to the NHS by any chance? Ha bloody ha. Heard it before, I'm afraid.

Then there's the biggest part of our economy, the service sector. Runs like a fairly well-oiled machine right now. But once the barricades go up after brexit, just watch the bureaucratic nightmare unfold. Note how HM Govt is pretty quiet about that. The truth will out, as ever, sooner or later.

So, we won't be leaving, will we?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:17 AM

Dave,
All I am saying is that the so called negotiators are not negotiating

They are not negotiating on trade or citizens' rights because EU leadership forbids it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM

We are not suddenly going to stop selling to and buying from the EU when we leave. After 2019 we will still be driving around in beamers and quaffing Prosecco and eating lots of EU-produced food.

We will be able to buy cheaper food on the world market, and if Beamers and prosecco cost too much we can switch to New World wine and Japanese cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:23 AM

So you agree that they are not negotiating then? Thanks Keith.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:33 AM

I have referred to that block on negotiation before Dave.
It is not the negotiators fault that they are not allowed to negotiate those issues, so why do you appear to be blaming them for it?

What exactly is the point you are trying to make here?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:38 AM

I thought that was quite obvious, Keith. Regardless of the whys and wherefores, the negotiators are not negotiating. That is what I said. No more no less. You have agreed. No point in continuing really is there as I am not going to jump through any Keithyhoops to keep you entertained.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:45 AM

Your point is not at all obvious Dave.
Are you criticising the negotiators or not?
If not, why did you post that "they have done nothing full stop?"
What was your point?

Should they be free to discuss trade and citizens rights?
I think they should. Are you with me on that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:50 AM

Read my last sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 10:03 AM

It takes two to negotiate. Negotiation first of all requires agreeing on the framework. The EU team do not agree that we should be talking about the favourable trade deal the UK wants before the substance of the settlement bill is agreed. If you don't think that's fair, tell us why not. We ARE going to pay money. If we don't, three things will happen. We will get a lousy deal. There will be bad blood with our main trading partner (no-one is queuing up to replace them fast enough to rescue our failing economy once we're out). And we will be chased for payment, possibly through legal process, for years. We will be paying money. The more hubris our clownish negotiators show over this now, the more dirt they'll have to eat later. We are the one causing the trouble. One out of 28. We are not the ones who get to set the negotiating parameters. Unless you're a Blimpish little Englander, that seems to be the way it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 10:47 AM

Just as well we do not have to rely on shaw to lead our negotiating team
for brexit. We would end up in a truly sorry state. He must be following the lead of rollover corbyn. I wonder if the French farmers have revamped their business plans to cope with the funding hole in the CAP after our withdrawal. They will no longer be able to afford the diesel to allow their tractors to clutter up the streets for a protest.
" We are not the ones who get to set the negotiating parameters"
Wrong!!!!!
I rather suspect we set out our stall when we told the rest of the EU we were off. A bill for leaving is the ranting of a petulant child and best ignored. Those missing UK contributions will cause pain from Brussels to Strsabourg and it will only be alleviated when the EU goons start to be sensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 10:50 AM

Ah there speaks a true diplomat .........







........ Little Englander style. Next we'll send in the gun boats.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 12:09 PM

"we will be chased for payment, possibly through legal process, for years." - Shaw

Wrong - there is no legal obligation for us to pay anything and absolutely no legal means or court in which the EU could present, or pursue their claim. But Shaw, were they to attempt to do so, they would have to both quantify and justify what it was that they are claiming - TRUE??

"We are not suddenly going to stop selling to and buying from the EU when we leave." - Shaw

Well hopefully not Shaw but that seems to depend on the member states of the EU doesn't it? After all we will have a choice that we currently do not have we can go looking elsewhere for the same, or similar goods and produce and as the fifth largest economy on the planet with a population of some 65 million I think that we will be viewed as a reasonably good prospect as long term customers.

"After 2019 we will still be driving around in beamers and quaffing Prosecco and eating lots of EU-produced food." - Shaw

Really Shaw? Your opinion not fact. I have never driven around in a "beamer" and I do not quaff Proseco, so that comes down to customer choice - also have a look at how much of the food in our supermarkets comes from outside the EU:

"Based on the farm-gate value of unprocessed food in 2015, the UK supplied over half (52%) of the food consumed in the UK. The leading foreign suppliers of food consumed in the UK were countries from the EU (29% of the food consumed in the UK) and Africa, Asia, North and South America (all providing a 4% share). Two countries accounted for 69% of UK imports of fresh vegetables. Three countries accounted for 54% of unmilled wheat imports, and four countries accounted for 44% of UK imports of fresh fruit.
It is worth noting that around 160 countries make up a significant portion (about 12%) of our food imports ? making the UK?s tastes truly global and integral to the world economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 12:32 PM

Whether we have a legal obligation has yet to be clarified. Unknown, untested waters and all that. If we leave with a walk-away no-deal, with EU nations aggrieved over the non-payment of our dues, trading conditions between the EU and UK will be difficult and there will be obstructive behaviour, even sanctions. Ain't going to happen, is it, Woodcock? (What did they call you at school, by the way? Call me Steve as the civilised members of this forum do and I won't ask again. I could guess...Woodcock...fertile ground there...) You two talk with a mixture of hubris, brave face and totally unfounded optimism. Have you seen the latest stats on our economy? Seen how the pound is floundering again this week? What a great start for our launch into the big, wide world of tariffs on everything...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 01:54 PM

The EU team do not agree that we should be talking about the favourable trade deal the UK wants before the substance of the settlement bill is agreed.

We need to know what we are paying for before agreeing how much to pay for it.

We ARE going to pay money. If we don't, three things will happen. We will get a lousy deal.

Paying more money is what will make it a bad deal.

There will be bad blood with our main trading partner (no-one is queuing up to replace them fast enough to rescue our failing economy once we're out).

No-one is queuing up to replace us as their main outside trading partner.

And we will be chased for payment, possibly through legal process, for years.

Fine. We will only have to pay what we are legally obliged to, eventually.

We are the one causing the trouble.

No. They are moving away from us. They are no longer just a trading block. They want political union and they can have it, but it is not for us.

there will be obstructive behaviour,
No change there then.

even sanctions.

Ha, ha.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 02:26 PM

We walk away without paying. They won't want to trade. They may be obstructive. That could include sanctions, de facto or formal. Do you think that because we're British that we are above such things? You guys really do think that we Brits are the dog's danglies, don't you? Well you have a rude awakening coming up once we leave. Our flagging economy already makes this country nothing special. Just wait 'til brexit comes to see how unspecial we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 04:29 PM

"Whether we have a legal obligation has yet to be clarified. Unknown, untested waters and all that." - Shaw

Only to you Shaw, only to you.

"If we leave with a walk-away no-deal, with EU nations aggrieved over the non-payment of our dues, trading conditions between the EU and UK will be difficult and there will be obstructive behaviour, even sanctions." - Shaw

If we do indeed leave with a walk away no deal - on behaviour up to now the EU nations will indeed have the right to feel aggrieved at the stance and tactics of Messrs Junckers and Barnier. Trading conditions between the UK and every other country in the world INCLUDING those of the EU will be those practiced under the rules established by the WTO (If the EU fail to comply with this they will find themselves under threat of isolation and "even sanctions").

"We walk away without paying. They won't want to trade."

Really? The German automotive industry will be absolutely delighted when you tell them that Shaw, currently the UK represents 20% of their sales. As usual you present your rather shaky opinions as fact, unfortunately for you your assertions defy the logic and reasoning that the EU sell more to us than they buy from us, so if they don't want to trade with us, who do they sell their goods and products to?

"They may be obstructive. That could include sanctions, de facto or formal."

As Keith A has already said, "obstructive" - No change there, what sanctions that would break WTO rules would the WTO allow?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:02 PM

Ah, but our collapsed pound and all those tariffs...

As I'm sure you realise, new legal conundrums have to be tested. There is no precedent for a net contributor leaving the EU without paying their dues. You don't have to believe me. You can google this stuff and get the views of people far more expert than you and me. It is by no means settled that we can leave without paying and that'll be that. That's your hubris and brave face showing through. Reality could be different. By the time we leave our economy will be sick, we will not have all these wonderful WTO deals in place and we will look like a very unattractive potential trading partner. And you've said nothing about the bureaucratic nightmare facing our service sector. Go on, look it up. We are going to pay up. Face it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 06:14 PM

What "legal" conundrum?

"There is no precedent for a net contributor leaving the EU without paying their dues."

The EU Treaty of Lisbon outlines the procedure for member states who wish to exercise their sovereign right to leave the EU. It is described in Article 50 of that treaty - oddly enough Shaw it makes no distinction between net contributor states and non-contributing states. It is against WTO rules for the EU to make that distinction.

"It is by no means settled that we can leave without paying and that'll be that."

Neither the EU or the UK have signed any paper that binds them legally to pay compensation - if there is please refer me to it. Any such payment must be arrived at by mutual agreement - now believe it or not Shaw that involves dialogue - it is NOT simply a case of the EU Commission in the shape of Juncker, or Barnier, plucking a figure out of thin air and demanding that the UK pays that. It is NOT for the Prime Ministers, or Finance Ministers, of the other EU member states to closet themselves in some chamber and decide what the UK must pay then simply demand that sum - It is for whoever is negotiating on behalf of the EU AND THE UK to agree what that figure is - Now then Shaw IF the EU want anything then they had better start listening to what the British negotiators are saying is necessary for starting those negotiations relating to payments. Which I suppose that is why the EU rules require that the whole process cannot be split up and sub-divided as they have done with result that talks and progress seems to have stalled.

It is a process of dialogue, it is NOT for the EU Commission to set preconditions. While they may THINK that they can lord it over the entire process, they had best realise without doubt that in the forthcoming negotiations (If they expect the UK to stump up) then they had best start treating the UK with a bit of respect, refrain from talk of "punishment" (Juncker, I believe), and approach these talks as equals. As it is the EU who expects the UK to pay them they should be aware of the "Golden Rule" - It is the UK's GOLD.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 06:38 PM

Quite so. But does the Lisbon Treaty say what we should do regarding financial commitments on leaving? You just can't accept that we are in unknown territory here, can you? Even if the EU ends up having no legal recourse, there's that bad blood and there's the fact that our economy will be a basket case by 2019 the way things are going. Pound, productivity, growth, all wilting fast. But do feel free to carry on putting on your brave face.

Anyway, that is all hypothetical. May has already made herself a hostage to fortune. We will pay money.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 02:39 AM

"does the Lisbon Treaty say what we should do regarding financial commitments on leaving?"

No it does not, there is no instrument, or article contained in the treaty that can compel any member state to pay anything - the terms under which a member state leaves MUST BE AGREED by the EU and the state that is leaving. There is a stipulated time limit given to reach that agreement which is within 24 months of Article 50 being triggered by the member state - once that time period has elapsed the state is simply no longer a member of the EU. In the case of the UK that date is the 29th March, 2019.

So far it would appear that while the UK's negotiating team has been waiting to discuss and negotiate all aspects of the leaving process, those in charge of negotiations from the EU's side have not. All we have heard out of them have been threats and demands. They have given a figure which they dictate must be met before negotiations on anything else take place. That figure has not been broken down, it has not been explained, it has not been justified. Neither the UK, or it's population, are a country, or a people, that responds well to being dictated to (France and Germany should know that from history - Napoleon once tried to impose a ban on British trade with Europe - it cost him his Empire). Messrs Juncker, Barnier and the rest that comprise the unelected EU Commission have up to now arrogantly tried to run the clock down in order to put pressure on the UK - If they continue to do so, if they refuse to negotiate all aspects of the withdrawal process then they are going to end up with nothing. Should they then attempt to "punish" the UK with tariffs and trade barriers, they will find themselves in breach and in dispute with the WTO on all five guiding rules of the WTO which all member states of the EU agreed to when they joined, as individuals, on 1st January 1995.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 03:21 AM

Cloth eared Corbyn rides into Brussels to get negotiations on track.
I can see where shaw gets hid ideas from.

I would say that undermining the official negotiations is probably treason. Time to lock the goon up.


cowboy corbyn rides into town

What a bunch!
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41688280

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 03:25 AM

It is very hard to get a true picture from anywhere. Is the link accurate or wishful thinking?


https://capx.co/eu-leaders-mustnt-squander-this-brexit-momentum/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 04:34 AM

It is very hard to get a true picture from anywhere.

Yes, indeed it is hard. Diogenes would have agreed.

So I can only suggest you consider things less as simply true and false, and more in terms of 'what level of confidence do I have that this statement is true'? The picture then is far from simple, as you now need to accept opposing views with different levels of confidence, but I find it a better approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM

Hubris reigns supreme here still, I see. Just one small point: if you really want to see this as two adversaries with horns locked, it's twenty-seven with 450 million versus one with sixty-five million. Not David versus Goliath, either, if you're feeling heroic. More like David versus the Lernaean Hydra, and David's already limping a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 05:32 AM

Steve, we currently have to impose tariffs on nonEU food.
Food will be cheaper for us when we do not, and EU food is more expensive than on the world market. They will not be able to sell their food to anyone else. Losing our market will enrage their farmers.

If EU impose tariffs on our exports to them it will hurt a bit, but the low pound makes our exports more attractive to everyone, and we will not have squandered billions to prop up EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 06:24 AM

Well no it is not quite as simple as you would like to think Shaw. It is not 27:1. It is not 443 million: 65 million. It is not a battle with locked horns between two adversaries and to view it that way is idiotic - if they want a deal then THEY have to start negotiating or they will be screwed out of "a deal" by THEIR OWN rules and treaty conditions. There are costs to both in this equation and I do not think for a second that the EU Commission has even considered that aspect of it yet. Merkel in Germany I am sure is being reminded of those potential costs every single day by German industry. Macron in France is in for a bit of a shock in the coming eight weeks when the EU Ministers, NOT the EU Commissioners, hold talks about what the negotiating position of the EU will be and in those talks it will be Germany that talks loudest along with the seven other net contributors to the EU shambles, the 19 other member states who are beneficiaries of EU largesse will have to realise that from March 2019 onwards the pot they consistently dip into is going to be lighter by 11 billion so the eight net contributors either have to come up with the extra cash or everybody in the club has to take less - that is the reality they face. The sooner they recognise that the better for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 06:26 AM

Brave face, wishful thinking. Say what you like. We will still be buying stuff from the EU. Lots of it. There are not massive warehouses all over the world containing the same goods that the EU currently sells us, just waiting for 2019. We are not suddenly going to stop eating Camembert, driving VW Golfs, cooking with extra virgin olive oil, drinking Chianti and heating our houses with French electricity. It's facile to think that the world is replete with suitable alternatives for everything, all geared up to start supplying us (not tariff-free, lest we forget) in March 2019. We are highly dependent on doing business with the EU with our service sector and that will be severely hit by bureaucratic barriers that don't currently exist. Fears over brexit have hammered the pound, fired up inflation and stalled productivity and growth. It's anyone's guess how much worse it will look in 18 months' time. And WTO tariff rules are not a free-for-all, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 06:30 AM

" It is not a battle with locked horns between two adversaries and to view it that way is idiotic - if they want a deal then THEY have to start negotiating..."

But everything you post characterises the situation in precisely that way. It certainly isn't the way I see it. Make your mind up, Woodcock.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 12:39 PM

We will still be buying stuff from the EU. We are not suddenly going to stop

Of course not, but we will be free to buy stuff from the rest of the world too.
We can choose whether we apply tariffs or not, and we can stop buying EU stuff that is more expensive than alternatives.

And WTO tariff rules are not a free-for-all, by the way.

They are freer than the restrictive EU, and we already do most of our trade that way anyway. It works very well.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 03:19 PM

Under WTO rules you can't favour one country over another by charging a lower tariff on particular goods, just in order to "do a deal" with them. All this talk of doing amazing deals with anyone and everyone has to be seen through that lens. It's going to be a minefield. And not everyone is going to be enthusiastic about doing deals with us, or even going to be caring a jot. In terms of goods we are always going to buy more than we sell. And I have yet to hear anyone addressing the labyrinthine nightmare that our service sector is going to face.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 03:35 AM

Here is an analysis you will not find in the mainstream meedjah.

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2017/10/20/the-alt-state-v-brexit-why-we-must-fire-hammond-and-purge-the-treasury/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM

That is one guys blog. He is entitled to his opinion of course, but it is worth little more than mine or yours.

There is a classic attempt to get his attack in first in the 'about pages:

Progressives would dismiss all this as Sample of One, but their dismissal is complete bollocks: it is the collection of personally observed behaviour based on multiple examples, and typified by hundreds of individuals. It simply will not do to write it off as emotional bigotry.


Protest as you will, it is a sample of one. And note that it is only progressives who are singled out here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 06:05 AM

"...the Alt State will do everything to reverse democracy.... the oxygen would be better employed keeping Remainers out of power."

...Two snippets from yer blogger there. Someone else who doesn't do irony, I see. Doing all in your power to keep out (therefore to shut up) people representative of 48% of the people who voted and to populate your powerbase with enthusiastic leavers only. Now that's what I call a REAL reversal of democracy. Why don't you actually read the stuff you link to first before posting it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM

Great statement from The Labour Party this morning - they will not support Brexit if it goes against the interests of working people
Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 07:43 AM

"If," Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 08:47 AM

"If," Jim?"
I know and you know what damage it had done so far Steve
It's about time them indoors started to get the picture
They never listen to us - do they?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 09:08 AM

It's already done damage to working people - the pound through the floor, higher food prices. And that's only as a result of the referendum, God knows what carnage there'll be when the shower of shit posing as our 'negotiators' crash us over the Hard Brexit cliff edge.

The only people who can't see it are the wealthy, the Mucky-Toff sycophantic working-class Tory voters, and the feeble-minded who believed the BrexShit BullShit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 10:12 AM

Under WTO rules you can't favour one country over another by charging a lower tariff on particular goods, just in order to "do a deal" with them.

That is the rule and we successfully do most of our trading by those rules. No-one has suggested anything different.
It means that a vindictive EU will not be able to discriminate against us as you suggested they might.

And not everyone is going to be enthusiastic about doing deals with us, or even going to be caring a jot.

What is your reason for stating that? It is made up! We are one of the biggest economies and traders in the world. Why would anyone not want to trade. What countries choose not to trade with UK? None.

In terms of goods we are always going to buy more than we sell

Yes, and that makes us an ideal and highly attractive trading partner.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 10:37 AM

We'll buy more than we sell with an extremely weak pound and on payment of tariffs once we leave. It will all soak up that mythical "eleven billion saving" and more, especially when you factor in the fact that our economy has been in limp mode since the referendum. And just wait for the massive hit on our service sector, about which you and the brexiteers are being suspiciously quiet.

We do not trade under WTO rules with non-EU countries as we will have to once we leave, not to speak of the tariff barriers with the EU that'll spring up. We will desperately have to make new trading deals with countries a lot less desperate than us to do deals (the US, for example) and we will have to stick to the rules about level playing fields for tariffs. Brave faces don't butter no parsnips, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 10:40 AM

"It means that a vindictive EU will not be able to discriminate against us as you suggested they might."

Where have I suggested that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 10:49 AM

yawn!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 01:59 PM

Where have I suggested that?

You suggested they may apply "sanctions" against us. Remember?

we will have to stick to the rules about level playing fields for tariffs.

So will EU.
We will not want to impose tariffs on food so non EU food will be cheaper for us.
EU farmers will take a hit. Poor them.

You mentioned cars. Unless we get free trade with EU we may want to apply a tariff which will make EU cars much less competitive here. Poor them. Non EU cars are already charged so will not be effected.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 02:09 PM

Yeah well European cars are more desirable than ours. Not only that, most of our car industry is owned by foreigners who are keeping a sharp eye on potential deterioration of trading conditions. They can pull out. And applying sanctions is not necessarily vindictive. I don't regard our sanctions against apartheid South Africa as vindictive. If we don't pay our dues, that's pretty vindictive in my book. There's plenty of vindictive talk in the brexiteers camp. Want some samples? Read the posts of Teribus, akenaton and Iains whenever the EU is mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 02:22 PM

But Shaw, our arguments are based on fact whereas yours are based on a complete fantasy. Your hubris blinds you to reality, you poor soul.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 02:43 PM

I can hear the French farmers squealing already!

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/eu-farm-subsidies-face-chop-due-to-brexit-budget-hole-35876636.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 03:02 PM

Iains, I have yet to hear any "facts" with regard to Brexit .......... by either side in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 04:01 PM

You won't get any from Iains, that's for sure. You'll get plenty of insults, invective, Blimpery and childishness. What you won't get is sensible discussion points. It's all in this thread for all to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 04:52 PM

Well that was a stunning contribution Shaw. It has advanced the discussion by leaps and bounds. It is obviously solely due to the efforts of a "well educated scientist."

I find it very peculiar that your "leader" clot corbyn refused to allow debate on Brexit during the recent labour party conference.
This is the most significant political event for the UK in decades and yet no discussion is allowed. I wonder what it is that the labour leadership is so sh*t scared of that such a debate might reveal?
Was it that rational discussion might reveal the brexit route to el dorado for the uk and bring creeping federalism in the EU to a grinding halt?
I know this subject matter might be a little beyond your understanding Shaw. Have a nice cup of chocolate and have an early night, and leave the rest of us to continue this interesting thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 05:00 PM

Do you mean like the "debate" within the conservative party.

For example having a party leader who was against the Brexit idea in the first place and is now lumbered with the "organising" the UK leaving the EU.

A poisoned chalice if ever there was one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 08:16 PM

Thing is, Iains, you have contributed nothing to this discussion bar a few very ill-advised links to sources that you think promote your cause. Mostly, they are so nonsensical that they actually undermine your cause. You put no objective thought whatsoever into your posts. Now that's a fact. Generally, you follow criticism of your vacuous posts with silly insults and name-calling in posts that lack mature content of any kind. Go ahead. We can't wait. Or prove me wrong, hold your fire and show us all that you are finally on the beginning of the path to growing up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 03:16 AM

By your own admission you cannot separate fact from fiction, or fiction from fact. That makes most of your posts merely insulting irrelevancies.
Some of us wonder why you spend every hour on mudcat. You must lead a very empty life.

Meanwhile back to brexit and the cause of EU unity. Yet more hiccups on the road to unity. It gets better by the day! Makes your script look rather foolish, eh shaw?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5006907/MARK-ALMOND-shock-elections-Germany-Austria.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 03:20 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 10:37 AM
We do not trade under WTO rules with non-EU countries as we will have to once we leave, not to speak of the tariff barriers with the EU that'll spring up. We will desperately have to make new trading deals with countries a lot less desperate than us to do deals (the US, for example) and we will have to stick to the rules about level playing fields for tariffs. Brave faces don't butter no parsnips,

Two points in that paragraph:
1, We will have to trade under WTO rules once we leave.
2, We will have to make new trading deals with countries less desperate than us.

Ok, so which is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 03:24 AM

" I have yet to hear any "facts" with regard to Brexit .......... by either side in the UK."

Really Raggy?? How about this one:

Due to the result of the Referendum on Membership of the EU held in the UK on 23rd June, 2016 and the formal notification of our intention to leave the EU, triggering the Article 50 process, delivered on the 29th March, 2017. As of the 29th March 2019 the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will no longer be a member of the European Union.

There is no "hard Brexit" there is no "soft Brexit". We are either "IN" or "OUT", and we will be "OUT".

At the moment the UK negotiating team is fully prepared and willing to discuss and negotiate all aspects of our leaving the EU as is stated as a requirement by the EU's own procedures. The EU's negotiators on the other hand are not. The time is ticking away, the clock is running down and as it does so there is greater likelihood of there being a "no deal" result. Now who's fault is that? For there to be any sort of deal the EU Commission MUST START negotiations.

Other facts about Brexit Raggy:

1: The UK is one of the EU's best internal customers. The EU loses a market of 65 million people, who will turn to other products from alternative suppliers in order to keep the weekly household bills down.

2: The cheaper pound? Has improved our exports and made our products more attractive world-wide, including the EU.

3: Out of the 27 countries in the EU post-Brexit there are only 9 of them who are detailed as being net contributor states with Germany being by far the largest contributor. German industry will also be the sector hit the worst by losing us as a customer. For the gravy train to continue down the track as it is, those 9 net contributor states have to find an additional 11 billion, possibly more, between them, which I doubt they can do.

4: While Backwardsman wails about the pound going through the floor (which it has not) he conveniently forgets to detail or mention the woes and tribulations of the Eurozone that are very real and widespread (Macron in France had best get on with pushing his reforms through, he has done nothing yet and his much vaunted "new broom" promises are beginning to look as impotent and ineffectual as the one's promised previously by Hollande). Greece with all it's problems for the Eurozone is still there and there is a list of other Eurozone countries that are perilously close to facing similar problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 03:40 AM

happy families?

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/introduction-the-european-left-in-crisis

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/12/ideas-desperate-suppress-dissent-eus-days-numbered/

An interesting analysis


https://www.capitalandconflict.com/brexit/eu-trade-deal-or-no-deal/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 04:16 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM
Great statement from The Labour Party this morning - they will not support Brexit if it goes against the interests of working people
Jim Carrroll

Who decides whether it goes against the interests of the working people? The Labour Party? The Unions? Jeremy Corbyn?

Anyway, the Labour Party have already supported Brexit. They voted in favour of issuing Article 50. At that point they should have known that UK would be committed to leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 04:45 AM

OK Terikins I concede that one. The rest is all conjecture by both sides of the debate.

The 50 studies commissioned by David Davis into the impact of Brexit on various industries could also be construed as conjecture, however that information, gathered presumably by people with knowledge of the industry concerned, is being withheld from both the members of the House of Commons and the public at large.

With little, if any, factual information, how can people take decisions that will affect us all for an indeterminate period.

As for your other points

1. What evidence do you have to support the assertion that prices from other suppliers will be lower.

2. Yep, OTHER people are getting THEIR imports at lower costs, great for them. We however are paying MORE for our imports.

3. What evidence is there to support the assertion that the EU will still need the extra 11 Billion with the UK withdrawing, their costs will decrease to some extent. (If you have the correct figures please pass them to the UK government, it looks like they could do with your help).

4. The pound has consistently traded at approx 14-15% lower than before Brexit. Your assertion "While Backwardsman wails about the pound going through the floor (which it has not)" is utter nonsense, quite easily disproved by figures already provided by Nigel on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM

Raggytash.The pound started sliding long before Brexit, as has already been pointed out. IT has also traded lower than the present and not so very long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:11 AM

Rag,
1. What evidence do you have to support the assertion that prices from other suppliers will be lower.

The EU subsidises its farmers and imposes tariffs on world food to protect them.
EU food is the most expensive in the world.

Cars from Japan and elsewhere compete very well with German and French products despite tariffs against them.

2. Yep, OTHER people are getting THEIR imports at lower costs, great for them. We however are paying MORE for our imports.

Currently the EU makes us impose taiffs on imports from outside. Brexit will end that.

3. What evidence is there to support the assertion that the EU will still need the extra 11 Billion with the UK withdrawing, their costs will decrease to some extent.

Huh? We are a net contributor by that amount! When we leave it stops!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:15 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 04:45 AM
4. The pound has consistently traded at approx 14-15% lower than before Brexit. Your assertion "While Backwardsman wails about the pound going through the floor (which it has not)" is utter nonsense, quite easily disproved by figures already provided by Nigel on this thread.

Please don't misquote me. It was you who asserted that the pound had consistently traded at 14-15% lower than pre-Brexit.
I am clear that, as Brexit has yet to happen, you must mean pre-referendum. And the pound has traded at 15% below for less than two months of that period.
While it has been trading at below the pre-referendum figure, it has not been 'consistently 14-15%' below.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:15 AM

with the UK withdrawing, their costs will decrease

There are no costs to EU from our membership.
We pay more than we receive by billions every year.
We help to pay THEIR COSTS!

Our departure will leave a huge hole in their economy, and reducing trade with us will add to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:21 AM

Iains, the figures have been quoted numerous times.

Prior to Brexit the pound hovered at around the 1.25 to 1.30 euro to the pound mark and had done for almost two and a half years, although it had traded above those figures at about 1.40 euro for a period.

Since Brexit it has fallen to the present 1.12 euro a slight gain on it's lowest figure of 1.08 euro.

(in order to deter the pedants all figure, I acknowledge, are approximate)

Exchange Rate last 5 Years

If anyone wants to dispute these figure please take it up with XE.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:27 AM

Professor could I suggest that you and Teritowelling contact David Davis he obviously could do with your insightful knowledge of international trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:42 AM

Raggytash I believe I posted exchange rates pound/euro for a considerable time period already.
pound euro Dec    28 2008 = 1.0229
          July   16 2015 = 1.4294 (max value since around Nov. 2007)
          June   13 2016 = 1.2639
          June   24 2016 = 1.2254 (Day after referendum)

As I stated the decline started before the referendum
pound/euro graph since 2000 .

When it comes to exchange rates averages are totally meaningless.
Who deals in currencies on average values? Answer No one

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:59 AM

"1: The UK is one of the EU's best internal customers. The EU loses a market of 65 million people, who will turn to other products from alternative suppliers in order to keep the weekly household bills down."

The EU does not "lose a market." Trade will continue both ways after brexit subject to tariffs even with the worst outcome. A sensible deal will minimise the tariffs. But we will still drive beamers and drink proseccco and eat Camembert.

"2: The cheaper pound? Has improved our exports and made our products more attractive world-wide, including the EU."

We are net importers, so with a weak pound we lose. And the pound has devalued by the same percentage as at Wilson's devaluation. I wonder what you were saying then.

"3. ....German industry will also be the sector hit the worst by losing us as a customer."

It will not lose us as a customer. Trading conditions will be more difficult, but we will still trade with Germany.

"4: While Backwardsman wails about the pound going through the floor...."

Gratuitous insult noted (Iains has learned a lot from you). See note above about how much the pound has fallen. It's been the main driver of recent inflation and the consequent drop in living standards to come. A weak pound is a big detriment to this country.

And you STILL haven't said anything about the catastrophic prospects for our massive service sector once the labyrinthine EU bureaucracy that doesn't currently apply kicks in.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 06:00 AM

Iains, can I suggest that you are possibly in denial that the pound has traded at a lower level post the referendum vote than it had previously.

If you are unable, or perhaps unwilling, to perceive that there is nothing more I can add.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 06:27 AM

Raggytash the pound has followed a natural correction cycle starting way before the vote on June 23 2016, whereas you and your friends try to construct a case to blame the lower exchange rate on the referendum.
The statistics blow your case clean out of the water. If this is not the case why the fixation on how the pound has traded post referendum?
Why fixate on a part of a declining trend that originated way before the vote?
Your argument is both specious and vacuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 06:35 AM

Look at the figures Iains, it's there in black and white for all to see. (just for the pedants I know its blue)

Exchange Rates 2016

Use the cursor to highlight the 23 June 2106 and see what happened in the aftermath.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 06:42 AM

A view from The Financial Times.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 06:51 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 06:42 AM
A view from The Financial Times.
DtG

Dave, I take it you're a subscriber. That link doesn't work for me.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 07:02 AM

No - I do not support or subscribe to any newspaper. It should let you link to it if you have not viewed anything from the FT for a while. It did with me. I can no longer get to it myself. Probably cookie related. There is an option for a free trial if you are really interested but, to be honest, all we are doing is swapping links with opposing views. Doesn't get anyone anywhere.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 07:09 AM

Raggytash - 23 Oct 17 - 04:45 AM

Would appear to have been dealt with and answered by others - but as you asked:

1. What evidence do you have to support the assertion that prices from other suppliers will be lower.

Perhaps as advised by others you should take a good look and study the prohibitive tariffs that the EU imposes on produce and goods from countries outside the EU. According to EU rules we have to pay those inflated prices at present. Once out of the EU we can buy from wherever we want to without the added EU tariffs. Hence produce and goods from outside the EU will be cheaper. The countries selling produce to the UK will not hike the price WTO rules prevent them doing that, besides they are in the business of trading not in the business of "punishing" any country, especially not for the crime of daring to "leave the EU".

2. Yep, OTHER people are getting THEIR imports at lower costs, great for them. We however are paying MORE for our imports."

Our manufacturing sector has never been busier, that means jobs and wages in the UK.

3. What evidence is there to support the assertion that the EU will still need the extra 11 Billion with the UK withdrawing, their costs will decrease to some extent. (If you have the correct figures please pass them to the UK government, it looks like they could do with your help).

Ehmmmm Raggy the clue came in the phrase "For the gravy train to continue down the track as it is" - which explained means that if the EU wishes to spend as it is currently doing with the income it currently enjoys THEN - "those 9 net contributor states have to find an additional 11 billion" which I believe is roughly the amount of the UK's current net-contribution to the EU's coffers (In the last ten years our net contribution has doubled IIRC. Trends being what they are it, is highly unlikely that in the years moving forward from 2019 that that net-contribution would decrease).


The only saving I see from the UK leaving the EU will be that the EU will no longer have to pay for printing and translation services with regard to the English language which will be dropped as an official EU language, which, as English is the international language of business and trade seems to me to be a remarkably silly thing for them to do.

4. The pound has consistently traded at approx 14-15% lower than before Brexit. Your assertion "While Backwardsman wails about the pound going through the floor (which it has not)" is utter nonsense, quite easily disproved by figures already provided by Nigel on this thread.

The currency fluctuations related to the GBP and the Euro are not outside anything that we have seen before as others have pointed out to you. I restate what I said before The Pound Sterling has NOT gone through the floor - as Backwards incorrectly claimed.

Now onto Shaw's contentions:

Of course if there is no deal the EU loses us as a market in comparison to what exists now. I think very few will willingly pay more for alternative produce and products if the costs of those from the EU increase as markedly as those in your camp suggest. There are perfectly suitable alternatives that would be cheaper than your "beamers", Proseccco and Camembert - but that is a matter of choice. Should Junckers direct that the British be "punished" for leaving the EU, then the member states of the EU will suffer a backlash, if the British public thought it appropriate to boycott produce and goods from South Africa, just see how easy it will be to get them to boycott produce and goods from those who seek to "punish" us for exercising our democratic right, damn right we'll find alternatives, ourselves and the rest of the world will be better off and grateful and the EU will be the poorer for it. They will have to sell to others inside the EU what we used to buy or they have to curb production.

Post-Brexit London will still remain as the largest international financial hub in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 07:23 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:21 AM
Prior to Brexit the pound hovered at around the 1.25 to 1.30 euro to the pound mark and had done for almost two and a half years, although it had traded above those figures at about 1.40 euro for a period.
Since Brexit it has fallen to the present 1.12 euro a slight gain on it's lowest figure of 1.08 euro.
(in order to deter the pedants all figure, I acknowledge, are approximate)
Exchange Rate last 5 Years
If anyone wants to dispute these figure please take it up with XE.

I don't think anyone is taking exception to the figures provided by XE, just the way that you manage to misrepresent those figures.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 07:30 AM

"Of course if there is no deal the EU loses us as a market in comparison to what exists now."

That isn't what you said. Check your post again.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 07:32 AM

I cannot misrepresent that that is down in black and white for all to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 07:45 AM

What I stated - "The UK is one of the EU's best internal customers. The EU loses a market of 65 million people, who will turn to other products from alternative suppliers......"

With regard to future trade between the UK and the EU that is no different from stating - "Of course if there is no deal the EU loses us as a market in comparison to what exists now"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 08:14 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 07:32 AM
I cannot misrepresent that that is down in black and white for all to see.

You can, and you do. You have stated that those graphs back your contention that the pound has consistently traded at 15% below its previous levels ever since Brexit. The graph shows no such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 08:34 AM

Oh sorry I must mean 14.5%

Whatever, the pound is consistently trading far lower, post referendum, than it was before.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 09:21 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 08:34 AM
Oh sorry I must mean 14.5%
Whatever, the pound is consistently trading far lower, post referendum, than it was before.
14.5% or 15%, whatever.
The problem is your use of 'consistently'. Since the referendum the pound has consistently been trading below its rate immediately prior to the referendum. but not consistently 14.5% lower.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 09:29 AM

I'm sure that the people at the bottom of the pile are consumed with gratitude at careful consideration of them.

Just think they get a 1% wage increase (if they get one at all) and inflation runs at 3%

No doubt you will argue the toss that they are not 2% out of pocket but just 1.9% or some such.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM

Nigel, instead of stalking your perceived adversaries in order to spot what you see as inconsistencies (and whilst so doing not really discussing the issues), why not have an advisory word in the shell-like of your comrade Teribus, who's just done the very thing you can't stand yet far more glaringly than any of us? Go on, Nigel - show us that you're not a hypocrite after all.

Anyway, back to the substantive. From the Beeb news today:

The UK risks losing jobs and investment without an urgent Brexit transition deal, Britain's five biggest business lobby groups have warned.

In a joint letter being sent to Brexit Secretary David Davis, the groups including the CBI and Institute of Directors, say time is running out.

The head of the CBI said firms wanted an agreement on the transition period by the end of the year.

A government spokesman said the talks were "making real, tangible progress".

The other lobby groups backing the letter are the British Chambers of Commerce, the Federation of Small Businesses, and the EEF manufacturers' body.

CBI director-general Carolyn Fairbairn told the BBC: "One of the big messages from firms is 'get on with it' on both sides.

"This is real, this is urgent and a transition agreement by the end of the year would help enormously to keep investment and jobs in the country," she said.

Now I'd have thought that the wellbeing of businesses large and small is going to be rather crucial in the next few years. But they're getting more and more nervous. Not confident at all about brexit and almost in panic mode over the current stasis. Whaddya think, Teribus? And what about that service sector, which is going to face multiple bureaucratic barriers once we leave without a good deal? Your bald brave-face statement is just hubris. I suggest you look into what will happen once we're out. No wonder it's all a bit hush-hush on that front at the moment. It could turn out to be the biggest brexit disaster of the lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 10:12 AM

As I've stated before, I'm stalking nobody.
And I read that BBC quote that you give somewhat differently to the way you do.
It seems to be saying "get on with it". And the only people impeding that are the EU and the remainers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 10:31 AM

It's amazing how you brexiteers can't see any other side of the argument. WE are blocking the talks by refusing the perfectly reasonable request to make the divorce settlement clear before we get to the nuts and bolts of trade talks. It simply has to be done that way round and there is no reason on earth why it shouldn't be, except that this stupid government of ours simply has to be seen to be standing up to Johnny Foreigner at all costs for fear of the backlash from its right-wing back-benchers and the Farrago brigade. I mean, who won the bloody war anyway? (Cheers, Basil).

If you don't like to be called a stalker, stop stalking. I thought we'd settled that last week but you're at it again. Just tell us your opinions on the issues. Nobody minds being challenged on points of inconsistency but you make that the be-all and end-all, and, pointedly, you do it to your perceived adversaries only, as you've clearly demonstrated today.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 10:39 AM

While we're at it, perhaps you could tell us how remainers are impeding anything. Remainers in this country have the same democratic rights as anyone else and that includes the right to speak out peacefully and freely about things we don't agree with. It often seems to me that remainers are seen as some kind of uncomfortable inconvenience who should be silenced until we're out. Let me remind you that one of the major tenets of the leave campaign was getting our democracy back. In the light of that, mutterings from brexiteers about remainers impeding or blocking things are nothing if not ironic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 10:43 AM

It seems to be saying "get on with it".?

I think it is rather more that that, Nigel. It is saying get on with it and get an agreement about the transition arrangements by the end of the year or risk businesses going elsewhere. Not quite a threat, but getting close to it. And how much credence to give it is also uncertain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 10:43 AM

Steve,
You seem incapable of understanding the simple idea that agreeing to make a payment which the EU is either unwilling or incapable of justifying, in order to proceed with negotiations with an EU which has already shown its intransigence, is little better than 'buying a pig in a poke'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 11:00 AM

They have to justify the larger amount they are asking for and we have to justify the lower amount we're offering. Both sides stand to gain from a compromise, which is what will eventually happen. We call it "negotiating," Nigel. As ever, the trouble with this weak government, made even weaker by May's disastrous election, is that any sign of compromise will be seen as further weakness by the hawks in her own party and by Ukippers. That's why there's this hold-up, and any other reason you come up with for it means that you're just kidding yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 11:33 AM

if we stayed in, we would be a captive of the EU with absolutely no leverage at all The armed United States of Europe would be a fact and the United Kingdom only a tiny dissenting mark on the blue and white flag.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 11:47 AM

"if we stayed in, we would be a captive of the EU with absolutely no leverage at all"

A statement that ignores the last 40 years of EU membership. We're not going to have any leverage under WTO rules, which is the act of self-destruction Brexiteers seem determined to carry out, unfortunately dragging the rest of us into a mess of their making.

Even MayBot was asking Junker for help over the pudding.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM

...we would be a captive of the EU...

Yer startin' ta sound like tRUMP, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 11:53 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 11:00 AM
They have to justify the larger amount they are asking for and we have to justify the lower amount we're offering.

I do believe that that is the first time you've accepted that the EU should justify the amount that they claim we owe.
See, negotiation can be rewarding.

I don't see how we can justify the amount we've offered. It's a goodwill offering, close to being in line with two years worth of our current net contributions. We could also justify the Boris option of "We owe nothing"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 11:56 AM

"If we stayed in....The armed United States of Europe would be a fact"

No it would not be a fact. We will not agree to it and it can't go ahread without a unanimous vote in favour by all 28 members. That's in the EU constitution. We have blocked it. The only way it can become a fact is by dint of us leaving. Please let me know which part of this you're having difficulty with.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 12:13 PM

So we've plucked an approximate two-year figure out of the air. Justify that on any basis you can, Nigel. May offered that (and may have secretly offered more) because even she realises that compromise is necessary. If we walk away without a proper negotiated divorce settlement it WILL make trading conditions with the EU much more difficult. The EU is big enough to endure a black hole in its finances if push comes to shove and has a vested interest in demonstrating to its members that leaving comes at a high price (and so it should). She did not make that offer, "goodwill" or not, out of the goodness of her heart. She has a vested interest in paying as little as possible without getting EU backs up. We get that. That's her job. But that isn't zero pounds. The EU negotiators also know that they're not getting 90 billion or anything like it. The main block at the moment is that May is running scared of her own hardliners. We don't know the half of it.

And watch out for those financial institutions uprooting from London to the EU. The devastating consequences of that for our service economy is, well, still a bit under the carpet at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 01:07 PM

f we walk away without a proper negotiated divorce settlement it WILL make trading conditions with the EU much more difficult.

Yes, but we will not be tens of billions out of pocket and that will help see us through.

EU parliamentss are lurching to the right, and the far right is on the ascendant.
I would not be seeking ever closer union with them, and I am surprised that our Left are so keen to be in bed with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 01:56 PM

Whaddya think, Teribus? Asks Shaw:

Steve Shaw - 23 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM

And posts the following:

"From the Beeb news today:

1: The UK risks losing jobs and investment without an urgent Brexit transition deal, Britain's five biggest business lobby groups have warned.

The UK's negotiating team have been ready, willing and able to negotiate such a deal since the 29th March 2017 - The EU Commissions negotiators HAVE NOT. They, the EU Negotiators, have ignored the EU's own guidelines and rules related to these negotiations.

2: In a joint letter being sent to Brexit Secretary David Davis, the groups including the CBI and Institute of Directors, say time is running out.

What an amazing statement of the plainly and blindingly obvious. I would have thought that the last person in the UK that needs to be told this is David Davis. I wonder if Michel Barnier was copied on the letter?

3: The head of the CBI said firms wanted an agreement on the transition period by the end of the year.

I could send anyone in government a rather long list of things that people might want by the end of the year - doesn't mean that they are going to get their wishes granted. Sounds as though this letter should have gone to Santa Claus. Unfortunately for all concerned these negotiations involve the EU Commission and it is THEY who have dragged their feet, it is THEY who have delayed the process.

4: A government spokesman said the talks were "making real, tangible progress".

They I would suggest are the best placed and best informed to make such a statement.

5: CBI director-general Carolyn Fairbairn told the BBC: "One of the big messages from firms is 'get on with it' on both sides.

"This is real, this is urgent and a transition agreement by the end of the year would help enormously to keep investment and jobs in the country," she said.

Unlike you Shaw (& Co.), Carolyn Fairbairn appears to have hoisted in the fact that it takes two sides to negotiate and two sides to reach an agreement - because of intransigence, inflexibility and a refusal to follow their own guidelines on the part of the EU negotiating teams I do not believe that there is any chance of such an agreement being in place in the CBI's desired time frame.

6: And what about that service sector, which is going to face multiple bureaucratic barriers once we leave without a good deal?

Tell us what multiple bureaucratic barriers the "service sector" will face. IF things are made more difficult it will actually boost the requirement and involvement of those involved in the "service sector", but I suppose having never, ever had any experience of working within the "service sector" you would fail to appreciate that point.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 02:29 PM

"Yes, but we will not be tens of billions out of pocket and that will help see us through."

That's the tens of billions we'd loose from the exchequer if we get a deal, but business will loose hundreds of billions and eventually that cost will be picked up by... us if we don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 02:58 PM

"EU Commissions negotiators HAVE NOT. They, the EU Negotiators, have ignored the EU's own guidelines and rules related to these negotiations."

Expand.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 03:30 PM

The UK will crash out of the EU in a hard Brexit - no agreement, no trade deals with the EU, no single market. I've already pointed out why, but here is the reason why May and her cohorts are so determined to see it through. Nothing to do with what's best for the nation as a whole, everything to do with guarding the wealth of a tiny minority, and ensuring they are able to continue offshoring and otherwise avoiding paying taxes.

This is what the Conservatives have been told to do by the immensely wealthy group who control their policies, and it's the reason Camoron called the referendum in the first place, in the hope that he could placate them and, when the 'Remain' vote won, he could tell them it was no-go. Unfortunately, his plan went Mammaries Skyward and he lost his leverage to persuade them that we must remain - hence his immediate decision to dump the whole stinking heap of shit back on those in his own party who had opposed his Remain campaign. Predictably, however, the spineless buffoon, Johnson, and Gove the Lying Scottish Viper ran for the hills, and we ended up stuck with the Praying Mantis and her cabal of incompetents.

Give yourselves a pat on the back, BrexShitters, you fell for the bullshit, and handed it to the greedy, arrogant bunch on a plate. But don't forget - you're going to hurt just as much as those of us who had the sense to see through the bollocks and vote Remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 03:43 PM

EU    Commissions    negotiators    HAVE    NOT.    They,    the    EU    Negotiators,    have    ignored    the    EU's    own    guidelines    and    rules    related    to    these    negotiations

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 03:47 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovfQjR3iU-A

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 04:08 PM

For some reason Iains I am not at all surprised by your last contribution.

Sadly, for you and your partners, that is ancient history, the world has moved on.

Britain is no longer the "ruler" of the world, the sun has set on the British Empire, for ever.

I know that some of your "associates" find that hard to understand but that is fact.

Incidentally, on a lighter note, do you know why the sun never set on the "British Empire"





It was merely because God didn't trust the British in the dark.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 04:41 PM

No empires last forever. It is likely the EU empire will be very brief.
As it requires 4 presidents to run it, it is in a permanent state of confusion. This is despite the Lisbon treaty. The more they try to centralise, the more the periphery unravels. Happy Days!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 04:59 PM

Our membership of the EU has transformed us from being the perennial sick man of Europe into the fifth strongest economy in the world. All soon to be ditched, as our already-ailing economy demonstrates.

You have simply parroted your remark, Teribus. Show us how the EU have broken their own rules and guidelines. What rules, what guidelines and in what way? Just repeatedly declaring it proves zilch. We don't necessarily believe you, old son.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:10 PM

"Our membership of the EU has transformed us from being the perennial sick man of Europe into the fifth strongest economy in the world."

Best laugh I've had all month.

Membership of the EU had very little to do with that - a woman called Margaret Thatcher on the other hand did have rather a great deal to do with us achieving that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:37 PM

Well, considering she wrecked our manufacturing industry in favour of yuppie spivs, the descendants of whom caused the catastrophic crash in 2008, put unemployment through the roof, wrecked whole communities, reigned over high inflation for ten years, tried to bring in an immoral poll tax and put hundreds of thousands of unemployed on to "incapacity benefit" in order to hide the figures, let's say, to put it kindly, that the jury is decidedly out on your harpy heroine. This country has flourished in the EU for forty years when you look at what was going on before we joined and what is already happening now. Pound sinking, inflation soaring, living standards falling, productivity rubbish, food banks a-plenty, growth way behind the EU... cor, isn't the future bright! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 08:42 PM

By the way, Teribus, I'm still waiting to hear which rules and regulations the EU negotiators have broken and how they broke them. Cat got your tongue?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 02:27 AM

Go back to the beginning of this thread and start reading it Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 04:31 AM

European Council (Art. 50) guidelines for Brexit negotiations

"It will be constructive and strive to find an agreement."

Seen very little of that so far from the EU's negotiators.

"Negotiations under Article 50 TEU will be conducted in transparency and as a single package. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately."

The above is not the manner that the EU negotiators are insisting upon - Is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 04:46 AM

They have refused to discuss trade and borders in flagrant disregard of that rule.
Only money because they can not afford to live as they have become accustomed without our largess. Desperation drives them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 05:32 AM

the Confederation of British Industries - you know the guys they are doing it for - have waded in and they need to know a lot of what is happening by Christmas. They may not have 5 year plans, but there is the summer of 2018 well within their budget.

Our inglorious Minister of State for Trade and Investement (Greg Hands) regards their pronouncment as overblown, saying we have WTO regulations anyway. BBC R4 News yesterday.

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze.

The future will judge him, meanwhile an interim appelation? Careless Hands

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:02 AM

Some people don't seem to have talked to lawyers as much as I have. There is a rather large difference between discussed and settled. Everything has to settled at the same time - ie a legally binding agrement entwred into - but that says nothing about when they need to be discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:21 AM

Quite right, DMcG. And let me quote a relevant section of those guidelines for negotiation:

II. A phased approach to negotiations

4. On the date of withdrawal, the Treaties will cease to apply to the United Kingdom, to those of its overseas countries and territories currently associated to the Union, and to territories for whose external relations the United Kingdom is responsible. The main purpose of the negotiations will be to ensure the United Kingdom's orderly withdrawal so as to reduce uncertainty and, to the extent possible, minimise disruption caused by this abrupt change.

To that effect, the first phase of negotiations will aim to:

provide as much clarity and legal certainty as possible to citizens, businesses, stakeholders and international partners on the immediate effects of the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the Union;
settle the disentanglement of the United Kingdom from the Union and from all the rights and obligations the United Kingdom derives from commitments undertaken as Member State.
The European Council will monitor progress closely and determine when sufficient progress has been achieved to allow negotiations to proceed to the next phase.

There has been no breach.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:28 AM

from all the rights and obligations the United Kingdom derives from commitments undertaken as Member State.

That clearly includes trade. We currently have the right to free trade and we would like to keep it. We would even be prepared to pay for that right, but we have to know exactly what we would be paying for before we could agree the price for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:56 AM

Yes but you see, Keith, that little extract also includes mention of our commitments and obligations as a member state. With you it's all about our "rights." You really can't get this little Englander guff out of your head, can you? The plain fact is that an amicable financial settlement now will oil the cogs of trade negotiations. We will end up with a better deal. That's the real world. In your world we get nowhere, as we are seeing. It doesn't matter how much visceral hatred you have of the EU. Put that to the fore and we get a bad deal. Well done. We are a little country causing trouble for a huge trading block. Once May, Davis and co. get that into their skulls instead of living in fear of being seen to be weak in the eyes of their own backwoodsmen (sorry again, John), we can start working in the interests of the country instead of the interests of your Tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:12 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 04:59 PM
Our membership of the EU has transformed us from being the perennial sick man of Europe into the fifth strongest economy in the world.

We were possibly considered the 'sick man of Europe' for a short time. Certainly not during WWII when we were perhaps the last bastion of freedom in Europe.

Perhaps you need to check your understanding of 'perennial'.

Also, it is pure speculation to put our transformation from 'sick man' to 'strong economy' down to our membership of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM

"Certainly not during WWII when we were perhaps the last bastion of freedom in Europe."

Perhaps you need to check your understanding of the post-war events that led to the founding of the European Union and the reasons why a united Europe is a progressive idea that has eschewed by a smidgeon over half the voters of this country that forgot what our families fought and suffered for.

Britannia doesn't rule the waves any more, thank fuck. Brexiteers would be happy to be Xi Jinping's arsewipe rather than be part of something their limited imaginations (as per all the right wing) simply cannot understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM

Only thing is Shaw - the UK negotiators have been ready, willing and able to discuss all aspects of us leaving the EU from day one. The EU negotiators have not. It has been on their insistence that the UK MUST agree to terms dictated by them on what payment we MUST make, a payment I might add that they have refused to justify. We MUST agree to terms dictated by them with regard to rights of EU citizens residing in the UK. We MUST agree that the ECJ has precedence over our own sovereign parliament and the UK Courts of Justice. We MUST agree to conditions as yet to be determined by THEM on the nature of the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

The above Shaw (And DMcG who talks to lawyers) is not a negotiation by any stretch of the imagination.

We are willing to discuss, they seem only interested in dictating to us. On that tack they will not get very far, they don't deserve to. For some strange reason they seem to think that they can pressure the UK into a deal that would be to the benefit of the EU but unacceptable to the British people and against the UK national interests, they should think again. Come the 29th March, 2019 the UK will leave the EU and if no deal has been discussed, mutually agreed and settled both in Brussels and in Westminster then there never will be a deal and the EU will be compelled to trade with the UK in accordance with WTO rules. If it does not do this then every member state within the EU may find itself outside of the WTO.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:43 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:21 AM

Quite right, DMcG. And let me quote a relevant section of those guidelines for negotiation:
To that effect, the first phase of negotiations will aim to:
provide as much clarity and legal certainty as possible to citizens, businesses, stakeholders and international partners on the immediate effects of the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the Union;
There has been no breach.
Except that so far the EU have only been willing to deal with the future of EU population in the UK, but not of UK population resident in EU.

And yes, I've just commented on two of your poorly considered comments. Call me a 'stalker' if you wish. I realise it is just one of your defence mechanisms to avoid having to respond when your errors are pointed out to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:04 AM

"but unacceptable to the British people"

....SOME of the British people...


"If it does not do this then every member state within the EU may find itself outside of the WTO."

Another bizarre transmission from the alternate economic reality Brexiteers inhabit. This will never happen for reasons that really don't need any explanation, unless of course reality really is getting away from the bitter, delusional old men of The Dishonourable Order of the White Knights of Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:20 AM

Save yourself for your awful Sherlock jokes, Nigel.

Laying down a hard line at the start off negotiations is not "dictating" anything. It's your way of ensuring a good final outcome for yourself. The EU will not anywhere near completely achieve the things you say they are "dictating." Dictators tend to get the lot. Way back in the good times when unions were allowed to do their job of negotiating pay for their members, we would ask for twelve per cent, threaten all sorts, get round the table, end up with four per cent and everyone went away, not deliriously happy maybe, but clutching a settlement until next time. That's how it works. We call it "negotiation." We don't pay negotiators to give in and fold up at the first hurdle. The EU is following its guidelines, as I've shown. They've taken a hard line, true. They have to. But so are we taking a hard line. We want them to breach their guidelines and put everything on the table at once. That would be extremely foolish. We offered next to nothing in the overall scheme of things and it took us months even to do that. The EU wants to show that no-one should contemplate leaving lightly. Pour encourager les autres. To show that you don't get decades of benefits then blithely walk out leaving the rest in deep doodah. By so doing they are acting in the interests of the EU. Our negotiators are living in mortal fear of being seen to be weak by Tory hawks and the Farrago set. It's paralysing them. They are acting in the interests of their party, not of this country. In so doing they are holding things up and they are going to get a worse deal. The EU bigwigs are actually being quite nice to us in public. They can see that leaving the path open is in everyone's interests. In private they must be scratching their heads wondering how this country can have sent such a shower of incompetents to "negotiate."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:37 AM

You obviously were not on the negotiating team then Shaw - Trades Union activist is how you once described yourself wasn't it?

There will be no next time, this is a one time only negotiation and the resulting agreement is permanently binding. In labour disputes between union and employer there normally has to be an agreement. In the Brexit process that is not the case, the process according to EU rules is time limited the deadline is before 29th March, 2019 - if the EU negotiators want to play silly beggars it is entirely up to them. Although I think that over the next eight weeks the Council of Ministers will tell Barnier & Co., to get a move on - a no deal solution hurts members states individually to varying degrees, it does not harm, or affect the EU Commission one iota, their unelected snouts will remain steadfastly in the trough. It will not be the likes of Junckers and Barnier to explain to those working on the VW and BMW production lines why 20% of their production is no longer required. But I dare say the CEOs of both concerns will have a word in Merkel's ear.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM

"But I dare say the CEOs of both concerns will have a word in Merkel's ear."

Why shouldn't they? Business is business after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:00 AM

Laying down a hard line at the start off negotiations is not "dictating" anything. It's your way of ensuring a good final outcome for yourself. The EU will not anywhere near completely achieve the things you say they are "dictating." Dictators tend to get the lot. Way back in the good times when unions were allowed to do their job of negotiating pay for their members, we would ask for twelve per cent, threaten all sorts, get round the table, end up with four per cent and everyone went away, not deliriously happy maybe, but clutching a settlement until next time. That's how it works. We call it "negotiation." We don't pay negotiators to give in and fold up at the first hurdle. The EU is following its guidelines, as I've shown. They've taken a hard line, true. They have to. But so are we taking a hard line. We want them to breach their guidelines and put everything on the table at once. That would be extremely foolish. We offered next to nothing in the overall scheme of things and it took us months even to do that. The EU wants to show that no-one should contemplate leaving lightly. Pour encourager les autres. To show that you don't get decades of benefits then blithely walk out leaving the rest in deep doodah. By so doing they are acting in the interests of the EU. Our negotiators are living in mortal fear of being seen to be weak by Tory hawks and the Farrago set. It's paralysing them. They are acting in the interests of their party, not of this country. In so doing they are holding things up and they are going to get a worse deal. The EU bigwigs are actually being quite nice to us in public. They can see that leaving the path open is in everyone's interests. In private they must be scratching their heads wondering how this country can have sent such a shower of incompetents to "negotiate."
So, setting strict targets at the outset is good negotiating practice if done by the EU, but folding to outside pressure if done by UK.
That seems to show that your support is for the EU rather than the UK.

To show that you don't get decades of benefits then blithely walk out leaving the rest in deep doodah.
More a case of having been a net contributor for decades. If we'd been a net recipient of the bounties of the EU we would probably want to stay in, and the EU would probably be more prepared to let us go.
They don't want us to stay in because they love the British. It's our contributions they want, hence the extortionate divorce bill which they are trying to push through.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:45 AM

You're not listening, Nigel. I said that we are also taking a hard line. Unfortunately, the motivation for compromise on our side is not there because the Tory "negotiators" are watching their backs as the Tory hawks circle around. And you don't know what their divorce demand is or how flexible they are prepared to be because all that lies in the realms of rumour until the UK shows that it's being serious.

As for this:

Me: "To show that you don't get decades of benefits then blithely walk out leaving the rest in deep doodah."

You: "More a case of having been a net contributor for decades."

My remark related to the EU's attitude to other potential leavers, not us. Perhaps my French phrase eluded you. It means, in that rather sinister wartime way, to make THE OTHERS (les autres) think ten times before they even consider leaving. You may think that my English is as bad as I think your Sherlock jokes are, but on this occasion I commend a rereading of my post. You could try taking off your irrational anti-Steve specs first, but who am I to dictate...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM

Steve, we all want a good deal.
Free access to their market is worth money to us.
Free access to our market is worth money to them. More, because they sell more to us than we sell to them.

The only thing discussed so far is how much we should pay.
Agreement has yet to be reached.

You assume we have not offered enough. Why do you assume that?

I assume that they will ask for more than is reasonable as a starting point for negotiation.
You assume their starting figure should be accepted. Why?

If they think we will accept anything rather than walk, they will never offer a fair deal.

If the best they offer is worth less than resorting to WTO trading, why would we not choose WTO?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:51 PM

Well that's right, Keith. You have outlined what hard-nosed negotiating is all about. The only thing is that the assumptions you claim I've made I haven't made at all. Whatever they are currently asking for is not known. In any case, there's more to it than a cash sum in one big cheque. It's rumoured that May may have offered more than the twenty billion. Who knows? These things are being thrashed out in secret. There will be leaks, of course. But, you see, the EU is acting in the interests of the EU. That's what they're paid to do. I don't like many aspects of it. I don't like the idea that the interests of individual states are placed secondary to the interests of gigantism. I don't like the idea that, say, Catalonia should be inhibited from seeking self-determination by the threat of being expelled from the EU. My view is that both Scotland and Catalonia should be free to vote for independence and stay in the EU. The EU wants them in and they both want in. It's pig-headed of the EU to oppose the fracturing of nations if that fracturing would be in the best interests of Scotland and Catalonia. If I lived in either country I'd want to vote for independence, but maybe I'd think twice if the threat of blackmail from the EU/Spain/the rest of the UK seemed to outweigh those best interests. But in these negotiations, the Tory party is acting in the interests of the Tory party, not of the country. That's what's holding things up. Shame you can't see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 01:17 PM

It takes a worried man to sing a worried song............

.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-juncker-talks-fail-no-deal-european-parliament-eu-president-weber-theresa-may-leave-l

But Manfred Weber, the leader of the European Parliament?s largest political group, the centre-right European People?s Party seems to have a different hymn sheet and has his own aria.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 01:52 PM

So Steve, what complaint do you have against the negotiators? What is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 02:07 PM

The Tory party aren't even acting in the interests of the Tory party, Steve. Just a small number of extremely wealthy Tory MPs and party supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 02:13 PM

Why do you say that Backwoodsman.
What are they doing wrong in the negotiation, and how do you know?

Steve said, "Whatever they are currently asking for is not known."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 03:13 PM

Read my earlier posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 03:36 PM

My complaints against the so-called negotiators are that they do not put the interests of their country first. That they are seen as incredibly weak because Theresa May is operating without an overall Tory majority and has guns pointing to her head. No wonder the EU wants to keep her afloat. They can't lose. That they still appear to hold dear some illusion that the UK is a major world power that can call the shots. That they are grooming us into thinking that no deal would be some sort of good thing. That David Davis completely lacks credibility. Apart from that, Keith, I have no complaints.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:44 PM

My complaints against the so-called negotiators are that they do not put the interests of their country first.

In what way are they not putting the interests of their country first? As far as you are concerned the only way any British negotiator will do that is to fly over to Brussels and say loudly to anyone that will listen, "Sorry chaps we've made one hell of a mistake, but we were only being "whimsical", we really didn't mean it, can we come back into the fold please and we will forget the whole thing." Well sorry Shaw that is simply not going to happen, we have triggered Article 50 (Parliament voted for that - not just the Conservative Party) and on the 29th March 2019 we will all wake up and we will be out of the EU. The British negotiators are in Brussels to get the best deal for the UK and if that happens to be a "No Deal" due to the intransigence of the EU negotiators then that is what will happen. Whatever deal is proposed must be put before Parliament and Parliament has to agree to it (So if it IS "No Deal" then it will have been Parliament that makes it so)

That they are seen as incredibly weak because Theresa May is operating without an overall Tory majority and has guns pointing to her head. No wonder the EU wants to keep her afloat. They can't lose."

Total irrelevance to the Brexit negotiations.

That they still appear to hold dear some illusion that the UK is a major world power that can call the shots. That they are grooming us into thinking that no deal would be some sort of good thing."

There is no illusion about the UK being the fifth largest economy in the world Shaw.

There is no illusion about the UK being the second largest net-contributor to the EU's coffers.

There is no illusion about the UK being one of the EU's best internal customers

There is no illusion about the UK being 13% of the EU's population.

Oh and "No Deal" is most certainly a thousand times more preferable to a bad deal that is not in the interests of the UK.

That David Davis completely lacks credibility.

Who with? YOU?? In what way does he lack credibility?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:02 PM

"That they are seen as incredibly weak because Theresa May is operating without an overall Tory majority and has guns pointing to her head. No wonder the EU wants to keep her afloat. They can't lose."

You replied "Total irrelevance to the Brexit negotiations"

Really !?

With the likes of Boris Johnson, Liam Fox and Michael Gove in her cabinet all seeking her position.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:59 PM

The whole point of her misguidedly calling the election was to get a big enough majority to see off her hawks in order to give her a clear run through brexit (more Tory party self-interest there of course). It went entirely the opposite way. Her agenda is being driven by hardline brexiteer little Englanders in her own party such as Bernard Jenkin and John Redwood who are irresponsibly promoting the idea of no deal. Under those circumstances she can't possibly put the interests of the country first. She is negotiating with two hands tied behind her back (which she has to watch at all times) and she has shown herself to be vacuous, wobbly, vacillating and visionless. Total irrelevance my arse.

"...we have triggered Article 50 (Parliament voted for that - not just the Conservative Party) and on the 29th March 2019 we will all wake up and we will be out of the EU."

You say this approximately once every day you post about brexit. Are you losing confidence? Is your nerve failing? Why do you have to keep convincing yourself? Is it finally dawning on you that this a total nightmare? If you can't see it now you soon will, and you can quote me on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:37 AM

Simple raggy, it is irrelevant because in itself it has no bearing on Brexit negotiations. The EU in Brussels are dealing with the British Government period and at the moment that is a Conservative Government led by Theresa May.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:41 AM

"a clear run through brexit" - IS in the best interests of the country.

".....on the 29th March 2019 we will all wake up and we will be out of the EU."

You say this approximately once every day you post about brexit. Are you losing confidence? Is your nerve failing? Why do you have to keep convincing yourself?"

I keep mentioning it Shaw as it would appear that some on this forum are too thick to realise it and accept it as being fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:56 AM

Maggie-May stated herself, in the run-up to the GE, that Its purpose was to achieve a large majority in order to 'strengthen her hand in the forthcoming Brexit negotiations, to ensure the best possible deal for the nation'. (I paraphrase there, but it's an accurate representation of the gist of her utterances).

So how can the fact that she failed to achieve that 'large majority' and, in fact, failed to achieve a majority at all be a "total irrelevance to the BrexShit negotiations"?

That would infer that her pre-GE claim was a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:10 AM

Perhaps your failure to comprehend why it is an irrelevance stems from your inability apparently to separate domestic and international affairs, politics and policy. But for your benefit Backwards here is a brief summary of what has happened:

Pre-election the EU was ("supposed to be") negotiating the UK's departure from the EU with the British Government ( For Shaw's benefit - That will occur on the 29th March 2019), that British Government was a Conservative Government led by Theresa May.

Post- election the EU finds itself ("supposedly") negotiating the UK's departure from the EU with the British Government ( For Shaw's benefit - That will occur on the 29th March 2019), that British Government is a Conservative Government led by Theresa May.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:17 AM

Meanwhile... a pile of Brexit reports remain unpublished by the tories. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:48 AM

Tell me Stu how many Brexit reports have been published by the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:51 AM

I do not think you believe your post of 25 Oct 17 - 03:10 AM, Teribus. While nothing in it is false you are perfectly well aware that it leaves out many important factors. I do not believe you think it has no influence on the negotiators what instructions, guidance and support they receive from home.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM

So, my Barrack-Room-Lawyer-ex-Squaddie friend, was she lying? Answer 'Yes', or provide an explanation of why she wasn't lying please.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:04 AM

Pray tell DMcG (The man who talks to lawyers) who is and who has been giving our negotiators - "instructions, guidance and support" - up to now:

The media? The opposition? the people? The Trades Unions? The CBI? Or has it been the Government?

Personally, without speaking to a lawyer, I believe that to-date it has been the Government - And that Government since the process has been in train has been a Conservative Government led by Theresa May.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM

Now just so that it is straight in my mind Backwards:

1: I state MY OPINION that the recent general election result is irrelevant to the Brexit negotiating process because to anyone dealing internationally with the UK nothing has changed - to make it simpler for you to understand - they were dealing with a Conservative Government before the election, they are still dealing with a Conservative Government after the election.

2: You paraphrase what Theresa May stated was her reasons for calling the recent General Election, which all sounded fairly reasonable and logical for a politician to do.

Now YOU want to know if she lied based on what MY OPINION IS!!!!

To quote John McEnroe - "YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS???"

Of course she is not guilty of lying you Prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:20 AM

You do like the partial truth approach, don't you, Teribus? Yes, it was and is the Government. But the government is weaker which is precisely what Mrs May wanted to avoid on the election.

My remark about lawyers really seems to have stirred something as well. But it is point worth repeating. Lawyers write in a very formalised way. It is not ordinary English because terms have precise meanings. So you cannot just treat a word like "settled" as if were an ordinary English conversation. You need to look at how that is used in law.

I have made my points on this little subsection. I will post again here, as like as not, but not taking this post further.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:30 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:51 PM
But in these negotiations, the Tory party is acting in the interests of the Tory party, not of the country.
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:59 PM
The whole point of her misguidedly calling the election was to get a big enough majority to see off her hawks in order to give her a clear run through brexit (more Tory party self-interest there of course).

The Tory party (much as you may dislike them) are acting in the interests of the UK. They are also acting to keep themselves in power, not only for their self-interest, but also because they do not believe it would be in the interests of this country to risk putting Jeremy Corbyn in charge of the negotiations.
In this the interests of the Tory Party & the UK run in parallel. (in my view)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:22 AM

Hi Nigel

<" they do not believe it would be in the interests of this country to risk putting Jeremy Corbyn in charge of the negotiations.
In this the interests of the Tory Party & the UK run in parallel. (in my view) ">

I agree entirely -


Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:36 AM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:56 AM
Maggie-May stated herself, in the run-up to the GE, that Its purpose was to achieve a large majority in order to 'strengthen her hand in the forthcoming Brexit negotiations, to ensure the best possible deal for the nation'. (I paraphrase there, but it's an accurate representation of the gist of her utterances).

So how can the fact that she failed to achieve that 'large majority' and, in fact, failed to achieve a majority at all be a "total irrelevance to the BrexShit negotiations"?

The idea of using 'quotations', whether using quote marks, or italic print (or both), is to quote the words actually used by another person.
Swapping Brex-shit for Brexit means that you are not actually quoting anyone.

Once you change even one word of a quote, it is no longer a quote, and people will start looking to see what other changes you may have made to 'quotes' in order to further your own argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:45 AM

"Tell me Stu how many Brexit reports have been published by the EU?"

Erm, I was talking about the ones our government has commissioned but refused to publish. I'm not interested in the EU ones, I want to see those. So much for taking back control, all in it together etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:50 AM

From: Stu - PM
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:45 AM
"Tell me Stu how many Brexit reports have been published by the EU?"
Erm, I was talking about the ones our government has commissioned but refused to publish. I'm not interested in the EU ones, I want to see those. So much for taking back control, all in it together etc etc

I think the point that was being made was that showing ones hand to the public also makes it available to the people you are negotiating with.
UK reports are thus being withheld in the same way that EU ones are (if any such exist) hence the question "How many Brexit reports have been published by the EU?"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:59 AM

Sadly Nigel the 50 reports into various industries commissioned by David Davis are not only withheld from the general public they are being withheld from members of the House of Commons, the very people elected to run the country on our behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:13 AM

"Backward" "too thick" "you prat" "Shaw".... the "problem poster" is back on form again this morning, I see. And I see you've made your worried proclamation about the date of brexit twice already today, Teribus, and it isn't even lunchtime yet! 😂

Just to be slightly more accurate, Teribus, the country is governed by a Conservative party under Theresa May without an overall majority that is being propped up by a despicable bunch of sectarian terrorist-apologist backwoodsmen (sorry yet again, John - maybe I'll stick to "troglodytes" in future, though it doesn't have the same cachet somehow). Not only does she have to keep them sweet, she knows that any rebellion by her backbenchers, always a background rumble in a seriously divided party, would very likely end up putting Labour in power. Keeping that shower happy is her top priority. As such, the false no-deal hubris on display from the clown Davis and the hatchetmen Jenkins, Redwood et al. is what is obstructing the possibility of progress in negotiations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:47 AM

No problem, Steve - I originally changed my name from 'Strollin' Johnny' to 'Backwoodsman' as a piss-take in response to an insult thrown at a group of us by the late Diane Easby - like Pte. Parts, a contributor who had plenty to say, most of it interesting and considered but, sadly, ruined by a rude, aggressive, ignorant, loutish way of presenting it.

In my 70 years, I've been insulted by experts, and dealt with a very great deal of rudeness and aggression. It's all water off a duck's back AFAIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:58 AM

ROTFLMAO!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Nige and Pte. Parts should get together as a couple to compete on 'Strictly Come Dancing' - the way those two wriggle they'd be guaranteed to win.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:24 AM

"I think the point that was being made was that showing ones hand to the public also makes it available to the people you are negotiating with."

I understand all that, but it's not that simple. The uncertainty caused for businesses not knowing the negotiating position of the government (in PMQ's today MayBot said "yes we'll get a deal" whilst other ministers seem not to give a stuff about a deal) or the contents of govt commissioned reports is damaging; today Toyota are making their concerns heard for instance.

Big corporates are one thing and you might not give a shit about them, but when they ship the oars the effect is felt by the myriad of businesses that are contracted by such mega corporations, from large suppliers to self-employed contractors working on an hourly basis. This has real-world consequences for us and our families and so if the govt is sitting on information that will enable those of us who run business to make plans with our customers to cope, then we should at least get the chance to do that.

So much for "all in it together". We're right out of the feckin' loop down here where the actual work is done; not much control being taken back for those us struggling to navigate this clusterfuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:45 AM

"the government is weaker" in dealing internationally? How? In what way is it weaker? The Conservative Party can still command a majority in the House of Commons, even if that majority is only one, it is still a majority. The threat of a general election that would see many of the rebels deselected and the very real danger of seeing Jeremy Corbyn, Momentum and the Trades Unions running the country on a ticket returning us to the 1970s will be enough to ensure that Theresa May and the Conservatives stay in power until after Brexit and more than likely until the next General Election in 2022.

By the way DMcG the legal profession makes the money it does solely because "English" is one of the most imprecise languages on the planet, the opposite can be said of French, which is why for centuries the language of diplomacy was French.

Nice to read that Shaw now knows when the UK will cease to be a member of the EU. That means I no longer need to remind him.

Now then Backwards while you are - ROTFLMAO!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 - Any other idiotic connections that you'd like to make? As far as " rudeness and aggression" go, neither you, or Shaw, need to take lessons from anyone, but it is amusing to see how you react when you get your own thrown back at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM

ROTFLMAO again, Pte. Parts! Do please stop, my ribs are starting to ache! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM

"As far as " rudeness and aggression" go, neither you, or Shaw, need to take lessons from anyone, but it is amusing to see how you react when you get your own thrown back at you."

Oh, more delicious irony! This, coming from our resident 'Problem Poster'.
Don't play the victim - everyone knows you're a piece of work, and nobody's taken in by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM

So French lawyers earn a lot less than British ones? Facinating.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:27 AM

Isn't it wonderful, the fantastic growth rate in the UK economy published today.

Growth Rate

I wonder if the Labour Government, last in power in 2010, over seven years ago will get the blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:33 AM

Sorry DMcG where did I say, or even infer that?

What I did say was that you can be far more precise in saying, or writing, exactly what you mean in French than you can in English. Now what on earth has that got to do with the earning potential of the legal profession in France? Reason and logic would suggest nothing - as I am sure you are well aware.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:53 AM

Others can check what you said and decide what you meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM

Ah, so in other words, you cannot point out where I made any reference to the earning potential of those employed in the French legal profession. Why not just say so DMcG?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 10:18 AM

From: Teribus - PM
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:45 AM
By the way DMcG the legal profession makes the money it does solely because "English" is one of the most imprecise languages on the planet, the opposite can be said of French, which is why for centuries the language of diplomacy was French.

Sorry, Teribus.
I'll have to disagree on this one.
English is the most precise of languages (if used properly)because of the available vocabulary. A word can usually be found with the precise nuance required to give the exact intended meaning.
Unfortunately people who work on the assumption that any, and all, of the words listed together in a thesaurus (such as 'cheap' 'cut-price' and 'bargain') are fully interchangeable, will not be able to use the language in a precise manner.
The legal profession make their money because they will take the care to draw up documents using the 'correct' words, to avoid the possibility of other legal experts later disputing the meaning of the documents.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 11:06 AM

As you are well aware by now, I try not to get drawn into pointless arguments. So I referred people back to the original posts, no more, no less.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM

I hope you've stopped laughing, John. The corset shop closes at five, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 01:05 PM

I agree, Nigel. It is one of many areas of academia I have only had the slightest of links to but I remember reading a paper round about 1976 about the comparative efficiencies of languages when trying to express concepts. It was a fascinating idea and I regret I know so little about it. I hope it hasn't fallen entirely out of favour - I can imagine all sorts of political judgements being made by those on the outside of the research.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:42 PM

No problem at all Nigel, my experience has been the opposite in the course of my work most probably due to the qualification you stated. One example that springs to mind related to what was meant by the word "flooded" in relation to a pipeline, one interpretation meant that work could proceed immediately (The interpretation as understood by the Contractor) another interpretation meant a delay of 36 hours (The interpretation as understood by the Client). The Contractor's understanding was the one acted on as:

1: The Job was lump sum;
2: The work was not finished;
3: The risk was the Contractors;
4: The Client had yet to signed off and take charge of the pipeline in question.

For the Client's understanding the word used in their job specification should have been "filled" not "flooded".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 06:30 AM

"Isn't it wonderful, the fantastic growth rate in the UK economy published today."

"33% better than forecast. Bloody Brexit. The gift that just keeps on giving."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 06:31 AM

33% of SFA is still SFA

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 06:53 AM

Titanic anyone?
Or is it more a fantasy:
   The Owl and the Pussy-cat went to sea
   In a beautiful pea-green boat,
   They took some honey, and plenty of money,
   Wrapped up in a five-pound note.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/23/strained-french-german-ties-rudderless-eu-losing-europe--commentary.html

Now for a sneaky little item kept well below the twitching radar:

https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/exclusive-eu-take-control-british-nuclear-deterrent

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 10:43 AM

Daily Telegraph one hour ago,
"by Tom Rees
25 October 2017 ? 6:07pm
Sterling soared on currency markets after a preliminary estimate showed that the UK economy grew by 0.4pc in the third quarter, ahead of economists' expectations."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 11:18 AM

Sterling soared did it.

Did you check the figure before you posted?

Sterling has "soared" by half of one cent, not half of one percent, but half of one cent.

I notice you didn't mention the lead story "Retailers on edge as sales dive at fastest pace since the financial crisis"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 11:18 AM

I am confused, Keith. In this thread and elsewhere those who support Brexit have been saying the fall to date doesn't matter much. So while I welcome the rise I don't really see why you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 12:14 PM

I too am confused DMcG - Mostly by Raggy's idiotic post 26 Oct 17 - 06:31 AM.

UK growth is better than predicted = so the remoaners have to disparage that because just the decision to leave according to the lies and propaganda you listened to meant the ruination of the UK even before Brexit occurs. Not quite working out that way though - IS IT?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 12:37 PM

No, T, my confusion comes from the argument being put forward that a rise in the exchanges rate is great news but that a fall doesn't matter much. It is the asymmetry that I find odd.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 01:01 PM

Recent currency fluctuations do not mean much with regard to Brexit, because they are not outwith anything experienced in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 02:31 PM

Sterling has lost value since the Brexit vote. Keith's observation might be a little over-enthusiastic but is basically correct, although it's the long run term that matters. Not that Brexiteers actually understand the concept of 'long term'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 02:36 PM

My post was a response to Rag's claim that the growth figures were bad.
In fact they were so good that they triggered a rise in sterling.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 02:41 PM

Not just the Telegraph.
The Independent 34 minutes ago,
"Pound soars against dollar and euro as better-than-expected growth increases likelihood of interest rate rise"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pound-sterling-latest-exchange-rates-us-dollar-euro-uk-interest-rate-rise-economic-growth-a8019221.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:02 PM

Interesting perception. A rise of less than 1/2 of one percent equates to "soaring"

A consistent drop in excess of 14% equates to recent currency fluctuations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:12 PM

Told you. They don't understand 'long term'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:29 PM

I would have thought Brexiteers understood long term far better than remainders. The referendum was directly about the long term. The future in or out of the EU. By what is happening in Spain, it is clear we are far better riding the train out of Dodge.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:48 PM

"I would have thought Brexiteers understood long term far better than remainders."

Obviously not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 06:00 PM

The pound has not soared. It's gone up today by a minuscule amount. Four or five weeks ago I was buying pounds for my holidays at two cents above today's rate. Don't talk rubbish, Keith. Growth has improved slightly over a single three-month period. Annual growth is still abysmally low, especially when set aside growth in the other major EU countries and the G7. There is nothing at all to cheer about. The brexiteers know that, of course, but from now until March 2019 we are solidly in brexiteer straw-clutching territory.

Our services sector is 80% of our economy. It is about to take a severe hit when the brexit barricades go up. Anyone heard much about this best-kept secret bombshell to come? Cue hubris about "London's place as the world's great finance hub..." Hubricate while you can, lads. The writing's on the wall. 80%...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 07:13 PM

"Soaring"? Take the choice of what word was applied up with the Independent Raggy.

Did the pound gain in strength? - Yes it did.

Will it always gain in strength? - No it won't. Currencies fluctuate and the fluctuations we have experienced since the Brexit Referendum are no different to any we have periodically experienced previously. In short the Pound Sterling has NOT gone through the floor as some remoaner tried to tell us all.

The dire predictions of voting "Leave" voiced by the Remain Campaign have not materialised, which must be rather galling for the likes of Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 07:27 PM

His, and others, doom mongering would be funny if it was not so bloody counter productive....what are these people hoping to achieve by their interminable whining? Do they really think that if they weaken our negotiating stance enough that another referendum is possible...I think not.

Additionally if the impossible happened and we had to crawl back and beg to be readmitted on the old terms, do they really think that the EU are going to welcome us like old pals with open arms.

Not bloody likely, when the ball is back at their feet we will be made an example of, to ensure no more "Bolshie" withdrawals from the Fourth Reich.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 03:46 AM

Exercising my free speech in a democratic nation in order to disagree peacefully with what?s going on is beyond criticism. Silencing ?remoaners? would indeed feel like we were in a Fourth Reich. If such demurring weakens our negotiating position, well it doesn?t say much about our negotiating position, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 03:46 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:02 PM
Interesting perception. A rise of less than 1/2 of one percent equates to "soaring"
A consistent drop in excess of 14% equates to recent currency fluctuations.

Once again this (often disproved) claim that there has been a 'consistent' drop in excess of 14% in the value of the pound (as seen against the Euro).
How many times do I have to point out that the pound has occasionally been trading at 14% below its pre-referendum rate, but for less than 3 of the last 16 months. This is not 'consistent'.
I would not argue if you claimed that the pound has consistently traded at a level below that seen immediately prior to the referendum (since that date) but you repeatedly use that misinformed claim to back up your arguments.
At close of business yesterday the rate was 1.12282, almost exactly 14% below the peak rate of 1.30562 seen immediately prior to the referendum.
Again, here are the actual details (for 2 years) Pound/Euro (2 year)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 04:04 AM

You seem to believe because it has not been trading at 14% below the pre-referendum level for every second of the last 16 months this is something we should rejoice in.

The truth remains, immediately after the referendum vote the pound plummeted in value. Although the exchange rate has varied over that period it has not at any time got anywhere near its pre-referendum value.

Of course this has a negative impact on almost every aspect of our lives, fuel, food etc, etc. The people least able to afford this are always the people with lowerest incomes. They are the ones hit hardest.

It is abundantly clear that some of your compatriots do not care a fig about these people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 04:16 AM

Perhaps we could get out of this somewhat sterile 14% argument if someone - and I suggest Nigel - were to say how far below the 'referendum day level' the pound has been for the majority of the time? Then we use that as an agreed set of figures to argue from.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 04:17 AM

"You seem to believe because it has not been trading at 14% below the pre-referendum level for every second of the last 16 months this is something we should rejoice in."

Ehmmmm No Raggy, you complained/objected to the use of the word "soaring" when used to describe the change in exchange rate. What Nigel is quite correctly pointing out is your inaccurate and misrepresentative use of the word "consistently". In using that word and the figure given by yourself you deliberately seek to misrepresent the actual situation. Nobody is necessarily "rejoicing" in anything, merely attempting to get the facts straight.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM

If ever there was a meaningless argument it is the present one about the exchange rate. The pound was on a correction cycle that started long before the referendum vote. There has been a valiant attempt to connect the exchange rate directly to the referendum result. It is nonsense.
Someone needs to provide a way of extracting the component of the downward slide due to the referendum result from the previously initiated correction cycle. Until that can be unambiguously constructed
further argument is futile.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM

No, I am just making clear that you are continuing to use a misleading statement. Never mind 'for every second'. For most of the post-referendum period the pound has not been trading 14% lower than its rate immediately prior to the referendum.

I have not discussed the effect of the exchange rate changes on the poorer people, and to suggest I am happy with the situation is insulting.

What I am doing is trying to point out that you do not help any arguments which you wish to make by falsifying the basis of those arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 04:28 AM

Terikins, I know what the aim is.

The valuation of the pound has fluctuated over that period since held the referedum. It has consistently traded at a far lower level than before, not once has it got anywhere near it's pre-referendum level.

However you and your compatriots would rather argue about semantics of the difference between 14% or 12% than address the issue of the fall in the value of the pound.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 04:32 AM

As for soaring.

I would suggest someone saw a headline and jumped at the opportunity to post it on here without looking at the change in the exchange rate. An increase of 1/2 a cent in the value of the pound does not represent "soaring"

You know it, I know it, it would seem the professor doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 04:41 AM

Someone needs to provide a way of extracting the component of the downward slide due to the referendum result from the previously initiated correction cycle. Until that can be unambiguously constructed
further argument is futile.

You set too high a goak I think. Whether you are talking Brexit or any less critical financial analysis - profits from sales of Mr Kipling cakes for example - youu will never get a clear unambigous cause and effect like that - there are too many factors, the world is too interwovwn. But it is ppssible to get indicative measurements. It is a hard and subtle task

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 04:46 AM

Steve Shaw - 26 Oct 17 - 06:00 PM

"Our services sector is 80% of our economy. It is about to take a severe hit when the brexit barricades go up."

Really HOW? I ask as our services sector industries look to three markets - Domestic (Unaffected by anything connected to us leaving the EU); Foreign - International/world-wide (Unaffected by anything connected to us leaving the EU); Foreign - EU. Of the three the first two detailed far outweigh the third.

Dying to hear how this severe hit will come about. Once more I think we will have Shaw havering on about something he knows absolutely nothing about. Yet another baseless "gloom'n'doom" prediction from a "remoaner".

Floors yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 04:48 AM

Sigh. I pressed 'submit' when I was part way though editing. But I reckon most people can figure out where I was going.

All I had left to say is there are well known techniques for extracting trends due one factor when there is enough data elsewhere, such as other currencies. But you will obtain data that always needs qualification: it will never be unambigous. Yet it is the ambigous data that all financial decisions everywhere use.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 05:06 AM

In the days after the referendum the Irish Finance Minister was rubbing his hand in glee at the number of approaches he had received from major finance organisations looking to relocate some of their operations to Dublin. He was frequently on television and reported in the press reveling in the prospect of new business for the Irish economy.

How many companies and how much business is transferred remains to be seen. Watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 05:13 AM

Hate to point this out to you Raggy but in terms of international finance if Paris does not feature as an international finance hub, where on earth do you reckon Dublin features? I take it that the Irish Government will earn the same vast sums in terms of corporation tax that they receive from the existing multi-nationals - i.e. basically S.F.A.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 05:16 AM

Like I said, watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 07:00 AM

Steve,
The pound has not soared...... Don't talk rubbish, Keith.

It was not me talking. It was the Telegraph and the Independent, but they are not known for their ignorance of economic issues or for talking rubbish about anything.

My point was that the growth figures, far from being terrible as Rag stated, were actually good enough to trigger a rise in Sterling.
He was talking rubbish, not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 07:04 AM

Ha, ha, brilliant professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 07:11 AM

Yes Rag.
You did rubbish the growth figures which were recognised by everyone else to be rather good.
Rubbish from you, facts from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 07:34 AM

If the figure is set at 0.3% and the actually is 0.4% we the target has been excelled but 0.04% still equates to SFA when compared the nearly every other economy.

(Nigel, Iains the figure are given as examples and are not meant to signify the actual figures ........... we don't really want to go done that line again .... do we)

The truth is that nearly every economy in the world has growth greater then the UK with the exception of Brazil.

Yippee!! Time to get your union flag underpants on again.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 09:57 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 07:34 AM
If the figure is set at 0.3% and the actually is 0.4% we the target has been excelled but 0.04% still equates to SFA when compared the nearly every other economy.
(Nigel, Iains the figure are given as examples and are not meant to signify the actual figures ........... we don't really want to go done that line again .... do we)

Sorry, I'm completely lost now. If "the figures don't signify actual figures", what, if any, is the point of quoting them, and using them to try to build an argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 09:58 AM

The economists regard the figures as good.
Raggytash does not.
Who to believe?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:03 AM

Merely pointing out that previous imputs had been squabbling about precise figures................... to the detriment of the main discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:13 AM

" the figure are given as examples and are not meant to signify the actual figures ........... we don't really want to go done that line again .... do we"

Why Raggy? I suppose .......we don't really want to go done that line again - because you do not want to show up for the complete and utter arse that you undoubtedly are - AGAIN.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:19 AM

Forgotten your "problem poster" pills again have we?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 12:21 PM

Forgotten your "arse" pill again?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 02:19 PM

"The economists regard the figures as good."

Ah, but are you sure they're all living economists from the last thirty years who have books on sale in reputable bookshops?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 06:25 PM

That's EMINENT living economists, Steve. Jeez, you ought to have the requirements down by NOW!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 06:36 PM

You are not wrong Greg, you are not wrong! Damn!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Oct 17 - 05:18 AM

Raggytash."In the days after the referendum the Irish Finance Minister was rubbing his hand in glee at the number of approaches he had received from major finance organisations looking to relocate some of their operations to Dublin"

But the EU is trying to harmonise taxation throughout the EU starting with internet giants. Independant taxation underpins the nation state.
I can see where this is going!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/european-digital-tax-as-big-a-threat-as-brexit-ministers-fear-1.3271722
I don't think the laddie above will be smirking if anything in the link comes to fruition.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM

Iains, the companies making overtures to the Irish Finance Minister were banking and insurances giants, not the tech companies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Oct 17 - 06:07 AM

I did say:" the EU is trying to harmonise taxation throughout the EU starting with internet giants."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Oct 17 - 01:19 PM

UBS bank is saying it will stay in London after Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Oct 17 - 04:42 PM

All the banks will stay in London, it's a major financial centre and will remain so.

Whether ALL their operations will remain there is open to conjecture, and if they have made overtures to finance ministers in other countries there is a significant doubt if that will be the case.

Time alone will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 02:46 AM

"Time will tell" is indeed the best response. I welcome the UBS news as much as anyone but it is not as clear as you might think. Here is a clipping from the telegraph report which said the move of 1000 staff was looking less likely:

===
While UBS has softened its stance on the number of jobs that are likely to move, it is still hashing out plans to protect itself.?Mr?Ermotti looked to soothe concerns for London staff on Friday by saying that it was his?"target"?to "keep as many people as we can in London".?

UBS is one of the last big banks to decide on where it might relocate people post-Brexit, with London staff last week asked to rank whether they would prefer?to relocate to Amsterdam, Madrid or Frankfurt, sources told Reuters. ?
======

So a welcome change in the likelihood of these 1000 staying, but still up for grabs in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Oct 17 - 05:15 PM

Coo ! What a surprise.

Ukip Councillors move to the Tories

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 04:04 AM

Some say good old Brexit.

Finance Industry

I wonder what will happen and when.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 04:40 AM

Time will change Brexit in the fullness of time with deliberate glacial speed and a permanency that makes Trump fascism look like a flash in the pan. You guys are all in for the duration of your lives but in the US the Nazi hormones will fade rapidly with time. Jail time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 04:52 AM

Hmmm, Carole Cadwalladr's twitter feed is interesting this morning..

George Papadopoulos was in London six days ago, and posted a picture on twitter of himself outside Harrods, the only wording on the tweet being the hashtag #business; a message to someone, and of course we now know this was an FBI sanctioned trip and so the tweet was sanctioned.

So where was he off to? Well, Assange is holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy which is about 3 minutes walk from where the photo was taken. It's an open secret that Assange got the Clinton mails from the Russians and the lad is up to his neck in that affair. On the same day the Russian ambassador tweeted about 'fake news' regarding Russian involvement in Brexit; a subject one Nigel Farage has shown his arse over when questioned about and as we know, Jules and Nige are buddies who have met before... the referendum. Remember, Farage is a 'person of interest' in the FBI investigations into Trump, possibly because of his role as a errand boy between Trump and Assange, a result of a meeting brokered by the execrable Roger Stone.

On the same day as Papadopoulos' and the Russian ambassadors were tweeting, so was Assange, this time saying a year previously Wikileaks had rejected an approach by Cambridge Analytica (if you don't know who they are, Google away). Cadwalladr discusses these links here" Trump, Assange, Bannon, Farage? bound together in an unholy alliance

The article raises an interesting question: How has Farage got away with his and UKIP's links to Russia going virtually uncommented on? Something is happening here, and it's not easy to penetrate this nexus of power that appears to be influencing the democratic process in the UK and the US.

One thing's for sure; Farage and Trump are part of either an existing part of the establishment that has created a new power base in the west or it's essentially a new establishment, run from the east. Whatever it turns out to be, these treasonous capitalist rich white men are no friends of the ordinary working people, and they represent an enormous threat to our democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 05:13 AM

I used to look up to Assange but essentially being a prisoner of the US has broken him. Assange vengefully played his political cards partly for freedom. He played poorly
He was blinded by the credo that transparency cures all.      
Unfortunately Assange was not omniscient.

Stu your post was amazingly significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 07:06 AM

Stu you are looking at a fascist based oligarchic conspiracy to take over the world that practically mirrors a James Bond plot.

We have Popadopolous news 24/7 here but nothing about him being in London, possibly incriminating his partners in collusion. All with FBI support.

For a while I have seen a naivet? of your fellow citizens to accept a Russian interference in your own country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 07:17 AM

Gentlemen could I ask you confine your comments to the Trump page.

Ta :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 07:40 AM

edit naivet? not naivet?

Raggytash you too do not see or believe Russian interference in your own country? The comparisons made are valid and eye opening that are part of a gestalt you did not see, or wish not to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 07:55 AM

Donuel, the Brexit subject is wide enough in it's own right to warrant a discussion by itself.

What Farage et al may have been doing with the Russians also is a wide enough subject to merit a discussion, in it's own right.

I think including the subject here will only "muddy the waters"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM

ah I type correctly but html does not translate naive with accent marks

The movie 'Sum of all Fears' portrays a conspiracy of European men led by a German. Make that German a Russian and you may begin to see what we were talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 08:15 AM

It was not me talking. It was the Telegraph and the Independent, but they are not known for their ignorance of economic issues or for talking rubbish about anything.


Best bit of cherry picking I have seen in a long time. It would not take much effort to go back through the thread and spot where I linked articles in the Financial times, The Economist and the Guardian that said most economists were against Brexit. This viewpoint was rubbished by the poster of the above comment as being the prejudice of the media.

C'est la vie.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 09:54 AM

"Gentlemen could I ask you confine your comments to the Trump page."

I'm not sure you're understanding why I posted what I did. It's looking likely that Trump and Brexit are linked by more than just a disgruntled part of the electorate. The strings are being pulled elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 10:20 AM

You are right.
The waters are muddied indeed.
No biggie but I have noticed that apart from questions there seems to be a closely guarded jealousy of the Brexit topic quite naturally by the citizens involved.
I repeat that the reported observations that Stu has alluded to are extremely significant. In the States it would be Breaking News.
I don't know why it isn't, unless I assume too much and I'm wrong.
I don't feel wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 10:32 AM

Quite correct Raggytash, if anyone posts to the "Trump" thread without insulting the President their posts are immediately deleted.
Why should they be allowed to bring their bullshit on to this one?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 11:03 AM

Akenaton, pack it in please.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Oct 17 - 01:57 PM

if anyone posts to the "Trump" thread without insulting the President

Wrong end 'round, as usual, Ake. President Id-Baby IS the insult.

Plus what Raggy said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 03:06 AM

Looking GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5037591/World-Bank-Britain-better-Germany-France-business.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 03:19 AM

Looking SHITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/01/brexit-vote-cost-niesr-economic

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 03:34 AM

From: Iains - PM
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 03:06 AM
Looking GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5037591/World-Bank-Britain-better-Germany-France-business.html

Great opening headings from the Daily Mail there:

World Bank say Britain is better than Germany AND France for businesses: UK ranks seventh in list by global watchdog
-The UK was ranked seventh in the World Bank's 'Doing Business' report
-The only other nations above the UK were South Korea, Hong Kong and the US
-German and French politicians sought to tempt businesses to relocate from UK

So, UK ranked 7th with only South Korea, Hong Kong, and US above them.
Some lack of basic ability to count there!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 03:35 AM

I think I have more faith in the musings of the world bank than the
warblings of a comic strip writer in the gruniard. But if comedy floats your boat...........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 03:44 AM

Even better quote from the Guardian:
Brexit vote has cost each household more than (pounds)600 a year, says NIESR
Further down:
The National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) said it is 'almost certain' the leave vote has damaged living standards and hit the growth potential of the economy. The thinktank also scaled back its expectations for growth in the UK for the next three years.

So the NIES are almost certain that the leave vote has damaged living standards, but they are able to quantify this (possible) effect by giving it a specific value.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 03:44 AM

Dave,
This viewpoint was rubbished by the poster of the above comment as being the prejudice of the media.

Not true dave. I merely pointed out that FT has always been strongly pro-remain editorially, which is a fact.

My above comment was just about the recent growth figures which were universally reported as good, except by our own Raggytash.
No "cherry picking" from me on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 05:37 AM

"But if comedy floats your boat..........."

I'm assuming this is irony, given you posted a link from that execrable rag The Daily Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 06:15 AM

No, the figures were reported as better than expected, but when you expect SFA that's not too difficult to achieve.

You could correctly say we did better than Brazil ....... they were the ONLY country below us in the table.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 06:59 AM

No, the figures were reported as better than expected, but when you expect SFA that's not too difficult to achieve.

No, they caused a rise in sterling, so they must have been considered good by the economists and international currency investors who are responsible for such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 07:01 AM

Yes they caused a rise in Sterling.

Half of one cent, not even half of one percent, half of one cent.

That is also next to SFA.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 07:06 AM

Still good Rag. You were wrong to claim otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM

Still good eh

(what planet does this man live on?)

The pound is currently trading SEVENTEEN cents lower than it was before the Referedum vote.

So if you consider half a cent rise to be "good", what do you make of a seventeen cent fall.

Is that "good" too?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 07:46 AM

Cor, just spent a hundred quid to load on to me Caxton card. Got nearly ?112. Good, eh? I need it so that I can be a tourist in Europe next year. Luckily I still have a stash of euros left from when I bought a load in the mid-120s. Not long before that referendum I was getting them in the mid-130s. I suppose it means everyone'll be coming to Bude for their hols. Bloody tourists. Just remember before you come, suntans are not provided, and terrible planning decisions since 2010 have screwed our infrastructure...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 07:47 AM

I see from my post that there's a question mark over the euro...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 07:51 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM
Still good eh
(what planet does this man live on?)
The pound is currently trading SEVENTEEN cents lower than it was before the Referendum vote.
So if you consider half a cent rise to be "good", what do you make of a seventeen cent fall.
Is that "good" too?
The pound is 17 cents below the price it was listed at the day before the referendum. Single day rates tell us little. It would be equally true to say that the pound had recovered by 10 cents since 31st August. But that day was a relatively low rate, just as the day before the referendum was (for 2016) a relatively high rate.

General trends will give you a better overview, as will looking at how the markets respond to those trends.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 10:21 AM

so then Nigel, what is the overlying trend in the 16 months since the Referendum say compared to the 16 months before the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 10:28 AM

So if you consider half a cent rise to be "good", what do you make of a seventeen cent fall.

I only said that the growth figures were good, and that they triggered a rise in sterling.
I passed to comment on that rise, but it was a significant rise according to both the Telegraph and the Independent, and none of you were able to find anyone saying it was not.
Those two normally staid and reserved publications both described the pound as having "soared."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 10:37 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 10:21 AM
so then Nigel, what is the overlying trend in the 16 months since the Referendum say compared to the 16 months before the referendum.

Continuing to fall (overall) to make the pound show a better view of its true value.
The fall started well before the vote, even though all the pundits thought we would stay in the EU.
A re-balancing was overdue.
25/2/15 (6 months before vote) 1.3665
23/6/16 (day of vote) 1.305
31/10/17 (yesterday) 1.141

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 10:38 AM

I really don't need anyone to tell me that a half a cent rise in the value of the pound, which equates to less than one half of one percent, does not mean the pound has "soared"

A child of five could tell me that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 11:45 AM

It's a pity you did not go back the 16 months as suggested and your figures don't show a trend but a given value on a given day.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 11:48 AM

A child of five could tell me that.

Perhaps, but you have failed to find anyone with actual economic knowledge who would.
I found two reputable publications known for their economic reporting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 11:48 AM

900 Richard!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 11:54 AM

for crying out loud professor, please stop being so obtuse.

If you want to believe that half a cent rise equates to soaring, carry on, be my guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 11:57 AM

I did go back 16 months (if you check the dates) unfortunately a typo shows it as 6 months. so, to correct:

Continuing to fall (overall) to make the pound show a better view of its true value.
The fall started well before the vote, even though all the pundits thought we would stay in the EU.
A re-balancing was overdue.
25/2/15 (16 months before vote) 1.3665
23/6/16 (day of vote) 1.305
31/10/17 (yesterday) 1.141
And yes, it's not exactly 16 months as rates aren't normally shown for 'non-trading-days'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 11:59 AM

I am more inclined to believe the Telegraph and Independent on matters of economy than you Rag.
Can you find any reliable source that agrees with you on this?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 12:07 PM

I've not looked, fortunately I am capable of understanding that a rise of less than one half of one percent does not equate to "soaring"

Sadly you do not seem to have the same faculty. Your loss, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 12:09 PM

Sorry Nigel I read the 6 months part not the actual date.

As in "25/2/15 (6 months before vote) 1.3665"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 02:50 PM

Rag,
I've not looked,

I have, and there is nothing out there that agrees with you on this.
The growth figures were good and the sterling rise they triggered were significant.
You got it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 04:27 PM

What's all this "a rebalancing was overdue?" An excuse for the Tories by a Tory. Bet you wouldn't have been saying that when Labour Harold devalued the pound. By precisely the same percentage as with this devaluation, by the way. At a time when there is severe pay restraint and has been for years, the devaluation has resulted in inflation with which pay can't keep up. You keep forgetting that your mighty leader Maggie made sure that we would be net importers of goods for ever more.

As for Keith's clutching at straws re UK growth, here are the facts. [Source, Independent yesterday.]

The eurozone's economy once again grew faster than the UK's in the third quarter of 2017, according to the latest data, confirming the divergence in economic fortunes between Britain and the continent as Brexit approaches in 2019.

Eurostat estimated on Tuesday that the collective GDP of the 19 states of the single currency area grew by 0.6 per cent in the three months to September, faster than the 0.4 per cent growth registered by the UK over the same period.

This follows eurozone GDP growth of 0.7 per cent in the second quarter, when the UK grew by just 0.3 per cent, also the weakest rate in the G7.

On an annual basis the GDP growth divergence was even more stark, with the eurozone expanding by 2.5 per cent in the third quarter while UK growth was just 1.5 per cent.

The eurozone is experiencing a cyclical recovery, after years of rolling financial crisis, while the UK has been hit this year by a rise in inflation stemming from the slump in sterling in the wake of last year?s Brexit vote.

Business investment has also been weak in the UK due to firms' concerns about trade arrangements after March 2019.

Aren't facts inconvenient, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 05:07 PM

Those 50 odd reports are back in the news. Here is clipping from the BBC:

A Labour motion requiring the government to release assessments of the impact of Brexit has been passed by MPs.

Speaker John Bercow told MPs he could consider contempt of Parliament claims if the government fails to release Brexit impact assessments.

Labour's motion which asked for a "humble address" requesting the Queen to direct Brexit Secretary David Davis to release the documents,

There was confusion during the debate about whether a vote triggered by Labour's use of an arcane parliamentary procedure would be binding.

Mr Bercow said motions of this kind have "traditionally been regarded as binding or effective".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 04:27 AM

I clutch no straws Steve. I just pointed out that the growth figures were so good they triggered a rise in sterling, contradicting Rag's statement about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 09:56 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 04:27 PM
What's all this "a rebalancing was overdue?" An excuse for the Tories by a Tory.
The Financial Times was saying this in 2014, well before the referendum

As for Keith's clutching at straws re UK growth, here are the facts. [Source, Independent yesterday.]
The eurozone's economy once again grew faster than the UK's in the third quarter of 2017, according to the latest data, confirming the divergence in economic fortunes between Britain and the continent as Brexit approaches in 2019.
Eurostat estimated on Tuesday that the collective GDP of the 19 states of the single currency area grew by 0.6 per cent in the three months to September, faster than the 0.4 per cent growth registered by the UK over the same period.

This follows eurozone GDP growth of 0.7 per cent in the second quarter, when the UK grew by just 0.3 per cent, also the weakest rate in the G7.
Okay, taking those figures as accurate (assuming you're not posting them as either deliberate lies, or 'whimsy')
Rate of Eurozone growth is falling (from 0.7% to 0.6%)
Rate of UK growth is increasing (from 0.3% to 0.4%)
If this were to continue (and I make no claim that it will) which is going to show to be the stronger economy?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 10:01 AM

Nigel, do you want to deal with what if's ........ really?

The fact is that the growth in the UK economy is the lowest in Europe, in the chart given only Brazil was lower.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 10:06 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 10:01 AM
Nigel, do you want to deal with what if's ........ really?
The fact is that the growth in the UK economy is the lowest in Europe, in the chart given only Brazil was lower.

I was responding to Steve Shaw's post, and pointing out that there is more than one way to read the statistics he 'quoted'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 01:54 PM

The statistics I quoted were taken directly from the Independent, you insulting bugger. No lies, no whimsy. Congratulations on graduating from the Teribus/Iains school of social primitivism.

By the way, since I to!d you yesterday about my euro purchase, the pound has gone down two and a half cents (on the Caxton website). So if half a cent up is soaring, what's a sudden two and a half cents drop, Keith? Nosediving? Plummeting? A Nigel rebalancing? Being shat on from a great height? Still, there's always tomorrow...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 02:50 PM

The mighty Rees Mogg and the bias of the BBC:   Luvvin it!


https://order-order.com/2017/11/02/bbc-home-of-despitebrexit/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 03:29 PM

Do you agree with Jacob Rees-Mogg (mighty or otherwise) about the release of the 58 Brexit impact papers to the select committee? The clip below is from the Express, but there is the equivalent from other sources.

===
Tory Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) told the debate: "I have no doubt this motion is, in all senses, binding.

"It is not parliamentary wallpaper. It's exercising one of our most ancient rights - to demand papers."

He said he would have supported the Government if it had opposed the motion, adding: "In the event it does not, it must publish these papers to the Brexit select committee in full."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 03:45 PM

DMcG I have no problem with the papers being released providing we have some idea as to how they were compiled. Keeping the contents secret merely fuels the controversy.
and yes I do think Rees Mogg is mighty. Both for entertainment and eloquence coupled with a pretty sharp intellect.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 03:49 PM

Thanks for that, Iains. I did, however, meant that to be addressed to all readers, not just to you. So I will be interested to hear from Keith, Teribus, Steve and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 04:25 PM

"...a pretty sharp intellect."

Lacks intellect and conceals this from the Little Englanders and other associated tory dangleberries by a posh accent, an affected look of permanent befuddlement and constant repeating of old tropes and hackneyed Daily Mail bullshite. This stuff gives the monarchists, admires of the aristocracy and the other millions of happily submissive 'subjects' a boner for sure, but it doesn't fool everyone else.

The man's a complete and utter twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 05:18 PM

Some of us feel that way about clot corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 08:17 PM

The. more you call him names, the more we know how much you're worried about him. If Jezza ever came on here he would take your silly name-calling as a compliment.

Mummy! Mummy! When I grow up I want to be Iains!

Don't be silly, dear! You can't do both!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 04:25 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 01:54 PM
The statistics I quoted were taken directly from the Independent, you insulting bugger. No lies, no whimsy. Congratulations on graduating from the Teribus/Iains school of social primitivism.

Given your history of misquoting/lying, or stating that 'facts' supplied were mere whimsy, my comments were quite fair.

Most reasonable posters here, when quoting 'facts' from other sources will at least provide a link to those sources to allow people to check them for themselves. Your failure to do so increases the possibility that you are just inventing figures to suit your own arguments.

I have not insulted you, I have tried to respond to your unreliable posts with accuracy. This is always difficult when faced with someone who is prepared to change facts to suit themselves, or pass off as 'facts' something they later declare was 'mere whimsy'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:03 AM

When I grow up I want to be Iains!

No chance Shaw! I am far too discriminating to allow someone like you to even dream of being a clone of me. For a start you cannot tell fact from fiction. Need I go on? Your deficiencies are woeful.

A lot like Corbyn not attending the state banquet last night. A particularly insulting gesture to a visiting Head of State.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 08:17 PM
The. more you call him names, the more we know how much you're worried about him. If Jezza ever came on here he would take your silly name-calling as a compliment.

So I should take the fact that you called me an "insulting bugger" as a sign of your insecurity?

Duly noted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM

Iains, I had a quick look through the news and could find no reference to Corbyn missing a state banquet last night, could you provide a link if you have one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM

Correction: My apologies.I should have said a formal dinner, a somewhat lower key affair. Link below from the daily wail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5044983/How-Corbyn-speaker-hardline-Islamic-meeting.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:34 AM

Hmmm The Henry Jackson Society, hardly a non partisan organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:40 AM

I do not know what sort of message Corbyn is trying to send but given recent accusations of antisemitism in his party, to refuse to attend a dinner marking the centenary of the Balfour Declaration sends a very clear message. (To Me anyway) This message is further reinforced by his attendance previously at an event held by the Muslim Engagement and Development Group held in the House of Commons.

The controversial organisation was this week described as an 'extremist-linked group' by the foreign affairs think-tank The Henry Jackson Society.

This seems a very "political" stance he is taking even for a politician

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM

A nice balanced view from the Daily Heil as usual :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 06:16 AM

Perhaps more disconcerting is a senior member of government, Priti Patel, holding undisclosed meetings with political parties in Israel without informing the Foreign Office, allegedly discussing official business. Even more worrying is that she was accompanied by a lobbyist for the Conservative Friends of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 06:32 AM

Raggytash. I tend to agree with you. I have nothing against Israelis,
but their government and their influence (dual nationality politicians?)
worries me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 08:16 AM

No surprise that a friend of Hamas and Hezbollah would snub an event commemorating the Balfour Declaration.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 01:58 PM

Well it would have helped had the Balfour Declaration fulfilled both halves of its promise. And, for a century, it has been controversial. When a thing is controversial it means that some people will agree with it and some won't. Because you agree with it it doesn't give you a monopoly on the truth of the matter. In such circumstances, criticising those who demur for being true to themselves is just bigotry.   

Knock it off, Nigel. I gave you statistics from a reliable source, which I mentioned, that was thoroughly easy to check. Your insinuation that I was in some way trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes over those figures is an absolute disgrace. T(e insecurity lies entirely with you, as you know t(st the fig7res give an accurate picture of the current situation regarding the UK and EU economies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 02:23 PM

Oops, hit send before editing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 02:39 PM

and even after recognising the fact you leave the end of the post as gibberish. Or is this a progression from conflating fact and fiction?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 08:13 PM

Don't be stupid. I explained that I'd sent the post prematurely by accident before I'd finished editing it. I could have redone the thing but I judged that its meaning was clear enough despite the cockups, and I did explain myself. You know, Iains, many of your recent posts have been riddled with awful errors and poor grammar and I haven't said anything about it. The mark of a sourfaced desperado who has nothing much to say is that he'll nitpick in the way you've just done. Your best bet is either to stick to the substantive or just hold your tongue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 02:21 AM

A report today suggests that household costs could rise by up to ?930 for the least able to afford such.

Possible price increase

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 03:26 AM

"I could have redone the thing but I judged that its meaning was clear enough despite the cockups"    Stupid boy!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM

For Iains? benefit:

THE ORIGINAL:
?T(e insecurity lies entirely with you, as you know t(st the fig7res give an accurate picture of the current situation regarding the UK and EU economies.?

WOT I INTENDED:

?The insecurity lies entirely with you, as you know that the figures give an accurate picture of the current situation regarding the UK and EU economies.?

I sent the former by accidentally hitting the submit button before correcting that final sentence. Hands up all those who thought the original was so indecipherable as to be rendered gibberish (his word).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 06:40 AM

Knock it off, Nigel. I gave you statistics from a reliable source, which I mentioned, that was thoroughly easy to check. Your insinuation that I was in some way trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes over those figures is an absolute disgrace. The insecurity lies entirely with you, as you know that the figures give an accurate picture of the current situation regarding the UK and EU economies.
If we accept the figures, you still fail to respond to the meaning (at least one of the possible meanings) that I showed, based on those figures:

Eurostat estimated on Tuesday that the collective GDP of the 19 states of the single currency area grew by 0.6 per cent in the three months to September, faster than the 0.4 per cent growth registered by the UK over the same period.
This follows eurozone GDP growth of 0.7 per cent in the second quarter, when the UK grew by just 0.3 per cent, also the weakest rate in the G7.
Okay, taking those figures as accurate:
Rate of Eurozone growth is falling (from 0.7% to 0.6%) quarter on quarter.
Rate of UK growth is increasing (from 0.3% to 0.4%) quarter on quarter.
If this were to continue (and I make no claim that it will) which is going to show to be the stronger economy?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 06:47 AM

Oh blimey. The question mark gremlin strikes again. Yertis, corrected, always for the benefit of darling Iains:

For Iains' benefit:

THE ORIGINAL:
"T(e insecurity lies entirely with you, as you know t(st the fig7res give an accurate picture of the current situation regarding the UK and EU economies."

WOT I INTENDED:

"The insecurity lies entirely with you, as you know that the figures give an accurate picture of the current situation regarding the UK and EU economies."

I sent the former by accidentally hitting the submit button before correcting that final sentence. Hands up all those who thought the original was so indecipherable as to be rendered gibberish (his word).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 06:55 AM

You know better than that, Nigel. You are the one insisting we look at long term trends, and then you want us to extrapolate on two adjacent measurements?

But if we really want to split hairs, there is not really enough information, because the figures are rounded to one decimal place and they each have a margin of error, so it is theoretically possible, albeit unlikely, that the growth is actually the other way round, if we had the underlying actual figures once everything is known.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 06:55 AM

Once again, Nigel, I stated the position as it currently obtains. Your predictions are just that. Predictions, in your case with a healthy tinge of Tory brexiteer hopefulness. The slight improvement in UK growth your hope is predicated on was a phenomenon that occurred over a single quarter, and in recent historical terms and in comparison with other major economies an annual growth rate of 1.5% (that's the extrapolation from the unrounded quarterly figure) is still weak. Let's see how it goes, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 08:14 AM

Regardless of any opinions or projections, which have been wrong in most cases over the last couple of years, we are leaving the EU and the authority of the EU.
Given that FACT, would you not be better building up our country's future economic position, rather than continually trying to undermine it.   It looks very much like a bunch of extremely bad losers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 09:01 AM

"...we are leaving the EU and the authority of the EU"

In a way. If we wish to trade with the EU we will need to comply with laws laid down by the remaining 27, although of course we'll not have a say in how those laws are formulated any more.


"It looks very much like a bunch of extremely bad losers."

Damn right. Democracy works two ways and now we get to have our say in what your idiot Brexiteer leaders are doing. So far: Squabbling amongst themselves and fucking it up, it appears.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 10:10 AM

Most of you may not see the forest because Russian trees and your own citizens block your view.

I believe you have a Russian parasitical viral cyber infection.
Yes this sounds preposterous. At first.
A little infection goes a long way and could completely destroy the European Union and NATO from the inside.

While waging a nonviolent war against the West from within, Russia engaged in kinetic action from Ukraine and Crimea. Over the course of Putin?s 17-year reign, Russian defense spending has increased 20-fold. Cyber war via social media is the most bang for the ruble than any other disruption weapon. Kremlin rhetoric over the past several years has also shifted in a disturbingly confrontational direction. Cyber war took off its gloves once the US stuxnet was discovered thanks to Israel's mistake.

Europe is America?s most important ally, with whom we share values and interests. Abandoning Europe at this time would create a political and security vacuum on the Continent, one that would inevitably be filled by Russia.

In response to Brexit, the U.S. election and the rise of populists across Europe, many in the West are beginning to question the assumptions upon which the postwar liberal world order stands. Protectionism remains wrong, both morally and economically.

Increasingly, calls for reassessing the liberal world order are finding an audience on this side of the ocean, where voices say that it has outlived its usefulness. Meanwhile, a leading figure in what passes for the pro-Trump intellectual movement, who now serves as a high-ranking national security official in the administration, asks of NATO, What is the alliance for once its original purpose has evaporated? The original purpose of NATO was ?to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.? With exception of that last part about Germany, whose neighbors want it to play a more assertive role in continental defense and security, the founding rationale for the Atlantic Alliance endures. NATO need strengthening, not a shutdown.

The West wants peace and Russia wants victory. These desires are incompatible. Those who cherish liberal democracy and wish to see it endure must accept the fact that a Russian regime is once against trying to debilitate and subvert the free world.
While Russia today may not be as conventionally strong an adversary as it was during the Cold War, the threat it poses is more diffuse. Russia is as much an enemy today as it was a generation ago, and we need to adopt a more hardheaded, adversarial footing and mentality to defeat it.

In a globalized world where the criminal influences of Russian money and disinformation can more easily corrupt us than when an Iron Curtain divided Europe, and where the ideological terrain is more confusing than the Cold War?s rigid bipolarity.

Russia presents different challenges than it did a generation ago, not the least of which is maintaining Western unity against a more ambiguous adversary skilled in fake news. Has Farage committed treason? I don't know but that is up to figure out. It appears to me you squabble among yourselves trying to determine what Brexit has to personally enrich or hurt you.

You as a country are not suffering an auto immune Brexit disease you are facing a Russian parasite attack and don't seem to know it.

It took awhile but America now knows it, and the parasites are already deep in the executive branch. ( I hate that this sounds like something Joe McCarthy would say)

A quote by Putin still sticks in my mind when asked about elections,
"Its not who gets the most votes, its who counts the votes".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 10:17 AM

It looks very much like a bunch of extremely bad losers.

Same line that Donal-Buncombe uses & just as accurate.....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 11:04 AM

You have absolutely nothing to gain by continuing your campaign of denigration.....not only of the government, but of the British people and democracy itself.

We look and laugh at the deniers of democracy in America, but you people are as bad if not worse, at least we have partially overcome the divisiveness of extreme Party Politics.....all of which are irrelevant to the future of our respective nations.
Don is phobic regarding Russia, but President Putin has popularity figures that Western politicians can only dream about.....they don't have the power to change anything........even if they wanted to.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 11:47 AM

We look and laugh at the deniers of democracy in America

So now you're laughing at tRUMP, Ake? I thought you adored him!

President Putin has popularity figures that Western politicians can only dream about

As is the case with most tin-pot dictators.

your campaign of denigration.....not only of the government, but of the British people and democracy itself.

Say what? Get a grip, man!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 12:05 PM

The "deniers of democracy" in America won the popular vote by three million. The "deniers of democracy" here are trying to overcome the dereliction of democracy that a terrible referendum campaign visited on this country. And, oddly, we appear to be doing it democratically, by doing no more than exercising free speech peacefully. I wouldn't have it any other way. Would you, akenaton?

I could have sworn that deniers had something to do with the thickness of the nylon in ladies' stockings...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 12:27 PM

Not everything is as it appears, especially in covert war.

England owes a great deal to the use of subterfuge, distraction and camouflage. i.e. Calais.

The West used to be covert Masters but Russia has weaponized social media to the point even I hold strangers suspect. To even mention the subject sounds paranoid and stupid.

180 million Facebook customers to covert Russian propaganda and argument lit fuse subjects is a big number.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 01:57 PM

Donuel, I know the subject of Russian influence is important to you, however here in the UK we are not as aware of said influence in our current Brexit negoitations.

Do me a favour and start a separate thread.

The trials and tribulations of our own government are quite enough to deal with.

We get report after report that basically indicate the same thing, that those less well financially able are going to get shafted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 03:28 PM

those less well financially able are going to get shafted. >

You think YOU got problems? Wait 'til tRUMP gets his "tax reform" passed!!   ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 03:35 PM

"I could have sworn that deniers had something to do with the thickness of the nylon in ladies' stockings..."

OOOH Dear! You do have a multiplicity of problems, do you not???

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 04:53 PM

"So now you're laughing at tRUMP, Ake? I thought you adored him!"

No Greg, most people here cannot understand why the winner of a democratic election, which in most countries with an Electoral College does not mean the most votes, is denigrated for having the effrontery to assume office.
An Electoral College is recognised as an aid to democracy.

In a way there are similarities between the Brexit result and the election of Donal-John......both are to some extent a rebellion against thoroughly corrupt establishment cartels, a large section of the electorate believe themselves to be without representation, they have been made obsolete and were about to be written out of history.
A bad career move for the political establishment!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 05:01 PM

An Electoral College is recognised as an aid to democracy.


Well, Ake, if you read the actual words of the U.S. founders (or an elementary U.S. history text)it is absolutely 100% clear and certain that the Electoral College was put in place precisely and purposefully as an ANTI-DEMOCRATIC measure.

The rest of your post is equally accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 05:11 PM

Don't know about the US Greg, but in the UK and most other countries the use of an EC is recognised as a democratisation of the electoral system for general elections.
In referendums, where one issue is put to the electorate the largest real number of votes wins democratically.

Are you trying to say that there is something unconstitutional in the US, EC?   Is it illegal, if not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 05:16 PM

Read up on U.S. the history, Ake & then we casn talk.

'Til then, what other countries - other than The Holy Roman Empire- do you claim have an "Electoral College" like the U.S. example?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 05:17 PM

Additionally if it is indeed undemocratic, why has one of the previous Obama or Clinton administrations not had it removed from the statutes?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 05:20 PM

Before the election, the Electoral College was believed by most Democrats to be Mrs Clinton's "Trump Card".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 05:34 PM

As I said in the other thread, Ake, let me know when you've finished reading and absorbing that elementary U.S, history text. Blogs on the web don't count. Til then, I really don't have time for your ignorant shit.

Now, back to the UK & Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 05:52 PM

Now, back to the UK & Brexit.

Right Greg, just like all your posts on the UK & Brexit 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 (pace Shaw)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 07:29 PM

Re-read above & then take it up with Ake, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 04:46 AM

"both are to some extent a rebellion against thoroughly corrupt establishment cartels"

So you support a uber-capitalist of the worst stripe, who not only doesn't cater about the people but who disrespects them so much he has no hesitation in blatantly lying to them. What a wonderful world the alt-right are building. Brexit is a betrayal of the people. It's condemned our children to years of regressive economic policies, of having to whore our country out to despots and demagogues in order to make ends meet. Idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 05:38 AM

Stu, you are too short sighted. I have always seen capitalism for what it is and studied it's "evolution".

To me Donal-John serves a useful purpose in opposing the establishment cartels of Party politicians and a corrupt media, he removes the blindfolds which in turn causes people to examine the political system, to think and question.
Circumstances alter cases and the much vaunted personal freedoms of the last few decades have thrown up many more problems than they have solved. Our abdication of personal responsibility ....for anything, has produced a society in meltdown.
The latest example is the sexual harassment furore, politicians have panicked and are demanding new legal codes for parliament and the workplace, the unforeseen problems being that when these "anti harassment" codes come into practice they will be used by the whole of society.....responsibility for sexual safety will be placed in the hands of an overworked and understaffed police force.....with nightmarish results for society.

People must be taught the value of personal responsibility, serious matters like rape or sexual assault should be taken immediately to the police, but normal sexual banter should be dealt with by those concerned.....some may enjoy it, some may be offended and can take it to a higher authority, but taking away responsibility and placing the burden on the police force amounts to a further weakening of society.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 06:00 AM

And just what has your latest diatribe have to do with Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 06:16 AM

As I explained earlier Raggytash, I think Brexit and the US election were in many ways driven by a belief in a large section of the electorate that people were not being adequately represented by the political status quo and that power and personal responsibility had to be regained.
The system appeared to be dictating how society should be, through the established political Parties and a corrupt media which advocated an ever increasing "liberal" ideology, which encouraged the abdication of personal responsibility in favour of a criminal justice system not equipped to carry out the task.
A task which in most cases has fuck all to do with criminal justice and everything to do with a healthy society and personal responsibility in keeping oneself safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 06:21 AM

Start your own thread then, it's quite easy, even you should be able to manage that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 06:45 AM

"even you should be able to do that"   I can never understand that attitude, I have answered you civilly and don't think I deserve insults in return.

Do you never ponder on how snide remarks like that appear to other members? Especially coming from someone who prides himself on his egalitarian views?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 06:50 AM

It didn't even deserve the accolade "diatribe," Raggytash. It was complete nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 07:18 AM

Perhaps because your previous comment had sweet FA to do with Brexit except maybe in your imagination.

Back to the subject, yet another report today warning of possible job losses.

Broadcasting job losses?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 09:38 AM

"but normal sexual banter should be dealt with by those concerned...."

Oh aye, it's just banter and people are so touchy. I mean we all know you are still in the closet don't we love, but at least we can joke about it without you taking offence! Keep your pecker up! Oo-er!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 03:22 PM

I think Brexit and the US election were in many ways driven by a belief in a large section of the electorate that people were not being adequately represented by the political status quo

In plain English. People were pissed off with the knobheads representing them so they voted for knobheads that would take us to hell in a handcart. Sad thing is he is probably right. Even sadder, he believes this is a good thing. I really do despair at times and think these idiots get everything they deserve. Then I remember that we have to suffer it too and get angry because my children and grandchildren have to face the consequences of their selfish acts. Wankers.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 04:19 PM

sexual banter should be dealt with by those concerned.....some may enjoy it

Do ask tRUMP's and Weinstein's victims about that, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 03:00 AM

I think you have led a rather sheltered life Greg? Do you think that many women "enjoy" banter sexual and otherwise? Have you ever been in women's work environment? Hen nights etc?
Alcohol has the same effect on men and women, it banishes inhibitions.

Sexual banter is part of the mating game, but it is the responsibility of those who participate to draw whatever line is appropriate to them.
Regarding sex in the workplace, it can be used by both sexes, some to advance their careers, others to abuse their power.

Mostly it is about giving "signals" and waiting for responses.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 03:15 AM

That is probably the most sickening post I have ever seen on here about sexual harassment. You belong in the stone age, ake. It is little wonder to anyone with a modicum of empathy that your posts get deleted.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 03:22 AM

Truth always upsets the myth makers and myth carriers Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 03:26 AM

I think you have little understanding of the female psyche Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 03:44 AM

Left me speak as one who has been approached by a woman who offered sexual favours in the hope of promotion. Yes, it does happen both ways. And both are equally inappropriate as I made clear to her at the time. But that way round I had the power. Had she been my superior I have no idea what I would have done in terms of reporting and/or just putting up with harassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 03:51 AM

I think you have little understanding of anything, ake.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 03:55 AM

The problem "D" is reading the signals properly....most people, men and women are egotistical enough to believe that in all cases another person is attracted to them purely on grounds of looks or personality.

I'm sure the lady did not openly offer you sex for advancement....that would be stupid and counter productive. Women do not operate in that way

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 04:15 AM

Back to Brexit please gentlemen.

Views of Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 05:22 AM

"Mostly it is about giving "signals" and waiting for responses."

How would you know? Your interests lie elsewhere dear. It's not like copping off with a hairy guardian in St James' Park.


"Women do not operate in that way"

Aside from that, your posts on this subject are contemptible, arrogant and demonstrate an almost childlike lack of understanding but I wonder is perhaps deep-seated misogyny.

You are a deeply disturbing character Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 05:48 AM

Yes, let's get back to Brexit. Apart from Iains, no Brexit has said yet on the thread whether they agree with the government these 58 impact studies should not be given to the select committee, or with one of the favourites for next Tory leader, Jacob Rees Mogg that they must be. It would be nice to get the views before the announcement expected today.


(And as for who is saying what, I used Hansard, not a newspaper)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:14 AM

The most disturbing thing about Brexit is that nothing seems to be happening. The news is all about people who are already extremely rich cheating the taxman and, in the Queen's case, making extremely unethical investments, and MPs who grope women and find time to view extreme porn on their workplace computers, presumably with their pants round their ankles.


Maybe that's why nothing seems to be happening...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:18 AM

None of the Brexiteers on here have made any comment about the possible ?930 increase in household costs per annum that has been forecast either.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM

They won't. They're too busy looking for that ?350 million a week.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:21 AM

Hey, Raggytash, the brexiteers have nobbled the pound sign! Do you reckon they secretly wanna join the Eurozone?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:34 AM

Wigmore, Banks, Ashcroft and Dacre: All prominent Brexiteers who make extensive use of offshore tax havens for avoidance and would be targeted under the EU's Anti-Text Avoidance Directive.

What a coincidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:58 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:18 AM
None of the Brexiteers on here have made any comment about the possible ?930 increase in household costs per annum that has been forecast either.

Possibly because it's a non-story. A link might have helped, possibly this The Guardian
It talks of a possible rise, of up to 930 pounds.

This idea (which also give the possible cost as a range between 400 pounds & 930 pounds) seems to be based on:
Since WTO tariffs are highest for fresh food ? reaching 45% for dairy products and 37% for meat ? and much of this is currently imported from Europe, the team of economists predict an inflationary surge that could match that already inflicted by the falling pound. an assumption that we will continue sourcing our foodstuffs mainly from the EU.
Surely one of the reasons we are leaving the EU is to allow us to trade more easily with other countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:04 AM

I did put a link Nigel when I first posted about the article. Since such times it has been studiously avoided.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 08:22 AM

"Surely one of the reasons we are leaving the EU is to allow us to trade more easily with other countries."

Streuth.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 10:04 AM

Remind us of some of the other Remainer Predictions. How did that one of immediate and immense job losses go?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 10:37 AM

Be patient, Stanron. It's coming, believe me (you won't, but hey).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 11:01 AM

From: Stanron - PM
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 10:04 AM
Remind us of some of the other Remainer Predictions. How did that one of immediate and immense job losses go?

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 10:37 AM
Be patient, Stanron. It's coming, believe me (you won't, but hey).

What part of "immediate" don't you understand.
Remainers promised an immediate crash in the jobs market, an immediate emergency budget, a 60bn black hole in the finances (which didn't appear so they want us to pay the money to the EU instead)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 11:06 AM

I understand it perfectly, thank you, hence the injunction to Stanron to be patient. The next time you're gratuitously rude I'm going to start calling you Nige. Now knock it off, Nige. There, another broken remoaner promise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 11:39 AM

Regardless of predictions we are going out of the EU, it is in the interests of everyone, remoaners included, to make sure that we are not robbed and blackmailed by the EU negotiating team.
You will be unable to reverse the referendum result, or retain "Free Movement" so we will never be allowed associate membership of any description.

Now, try to act like adults and stop these stupid attempts to shoot yourselves in the foot....in spite.

"I'll Squeam and Squeam and Squeam......said the spoilt little girl"

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:19 AM

Don't let the EU dictate Brexit if you want a speedy US trade deal, Trump adviser warns UK

Today's news.
Obviously other papers will put a completely different spin on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:25 AM

Ah, OK, so instead of singing to the EU hymn sheet we will now be singing to Trumps hymn sheet. This is better in what way?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:30 AM

Hmm yummy Chlorinated Chicken ...................

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:31 AM

1K :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:31 AM

That is not what it says, but read the Independent or Guardian version if you want a report which reinforces your own viewpoint.

Business Insider seems to give further details of the actual speech

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:48 AM

Chlorine washed chicken Q&A from the Independent.

The EU ban is more precautionary than evidence-based. When the ban was introduced, officials were keen that food manufacturers should focus on overall hygiene rather than relying on a single chemical decontamination step to eliminate microorganisms. It was also believed that the chemical decontamination step could encourage antibiotic resistance.

As a result, the EU introduced regulations laying down specific hygiene rules on the hygiene of foodstuffs. This prohibits the use of anything other than water to decontaminate meat and effectively bans US imports of poultry treated with antimicrobial rinses. However, the European Food Safety Authority has found no conclusive evidence that antimicrobial chemicals used in food processing contribute to antibiotic resistance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:49 AM

In Trump we trust. Christ on a bike...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:51 AM

Ah, our bright gleaming future as a vassal state to the USA. We've never operated as equals with the US who are happy to impose on us/ignore us at will, and we are returning to the days of Blair poodleism.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:26 AM

Finally the Government is being coerced (or dragged kicking and screaming) into releasing of the 58 impact studies commissioned into the effect of Brexit on numerous industries.

It has been suggested that some of these studies may be redacted.

Redacted from their own colleagues. How on earth are our elected representatives supposed to make decisions on our behalf if information is withheld from them

Just what will be revealed I wonder?

Impact Assessments

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:45 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:26 AM
Finally the Government is being coerced (or dragged kicking and screaming) into releasing of the 58 impact studies commissioned into the effect of Brexit on numerous industries.

Again a 'headline' comment unsupported by the details attached to it.

From your link: "John Bercow, the Speaker of the House of Commons, has set the government a deadline of Tuesday evening to publish the Brexit assessments demanded by parliament - or explain why it has not done so."

Do you actually read the links you provide? The section I quote above is the first paragraph.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:47 AM

Raggytash. There is an alternative argument that if you divulge all, then your future bargaining position is weakened.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:36 AM

"Raggytash. There is an alternative argument that if you divulge all, then your future bargaining position is weakened."

The information is being withheld from our elected representatives, Conservative, Labour, Liberal, DUP and Green, not just you and I.

How on earth are they supposed to take rational decisions on the future of this country if they do not have all the available information.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:45 AM

Unfortunately the House of Commons leaks like a colander. Hence information is shared on a need-to-know basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:48 AM

Unfortunately the people who run the businesses in this country also need to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:51 AM

Quite Nigel .......... and the people who NEED to know do not have that information, it has been withheld from them for weeks and in some cases months.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:04 AM

The businesses concerned will have no input at all into the on going negotiations......other than to undermine the UK's negotiating position domestically.....encouraging the EU negotiators to stand firm in their unreasonable demands

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:10 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:51 AM
Quite Nigel .......... and the people who NEED to know do not have that information, it has been withheld from them for weeks and in some cases months.

Oversimplification.
A wish to have the details is not quite the same as a 'need-to-know'.
Those asking for the details do not (quite clearly) have the details in front of them, and so cannot know whether the details will help them / their party / their business.
Those who have the information have 'classified' it, and once classified (available at numerous levels)they are not permitted to disclose it without good reason.
People discussing this on this thread (myself included) have even less knowledge of exactly what need-to-know the various person requesting access have.

As such, it comes down to a matter of trust.
Do you trust the government to release such details as they can, if it will not hamper the current negotiations?
If they are forced to release more than they would like, do you trust that those who receive it will not disseminate it further than they should?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM

As far as I understand it, even the Brexit Committee members have not seen the information gathered.

As for trust, we elect these people to be our representatives and work on our behalf.

David Davis, an MP elected by us, commissioned 58 studies into various British Industries and the effect that Brexit would have on them.

For reasons we can only guess at, he has seen fit to withhold the information not only from you and I but from our elected members of parliament AND members of the committee HE chairs.

How can they rationally arrive at decisions without all the information available.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM

Nigel, in your clip you pointed out:

When the ban was introduced, officials were keen that food manufacturers should focus on overall hygiene rather than relying on a single chemical decontamination step to eliminate microorganisms.

That is partially food safety, but also an overall approach to hygiene, namely be hygienic at every step, rather than not care too much but tey to sort it just as the food leaves the door.

I would readily admit we are not exactly great at that, but it is not simply a question of whether the food is safe in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:26 AM

"As such, it comes down to a matter of trust."

Does anyone trust this government? It's a total sham. Even as I type this Ian Duncan Smith (a truly horrible person) is on The Daily Politics justifying keeping everyone out of the Brexit negotiations except the gooners doing the talking (or not), dissing the ministerial code over Priti Patel's 'family holiday' and calling her a liar, and the complete fucking idiot Johnson shooting his mouth off and putting a british citizen in peril (IDS is making excuses for him now; shame it won't be him suffering the fate of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe in her stead).

No trust in this bunch of goons. Let's see the reports, include business and the opposition (plus all 'stakeholders') and we might be able to reach a consensus that would strengthen our negotiating position.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:41 AM

From: Stu - PM
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:26 AM
Let's see the reports, include business and the opposition (plus all 'stakeholders') and we might be able to reach a consensus that would strengthen our negotiating position.
If they let 'us' and all and sundry, see the reports, they will also be available to those we are negotiating with. Do you honestly believe that that could 'strengthen our negotiating position'?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:57 AM

There would seem to be confusion in some minds between need to know, and like to know. I am sure we would all like to know what the CIA get up to, but it ain't ever going to happen now is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 08:07 AM

Do you not consider that the EU itself has also commissioned reports and already has full access to the information.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 08:14 AM

Raggytash. No!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 08:15 AM

Nigel quotes the following:

From your link: "John Bercow, the Speaker of the House of Commons, has set the government a deadline of Tuesday evening to publish the Brexit assessments demanded by parliament or explain why it has not done so.


I don't know what the link referred to said, but you can look in Hansard for what the Speaker said. The bit in bold is truncated: Bercow said "...Failing that, I expect Ministers to explain to the House before we rise tomorrow evening why they have not provided them and when they propose to do so."

So the papers must be published on his instruction. All the Government can explain is why they have not been released immediately.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 08:32 AM

"There would seem to be confusion in some minds between need to know, and like to know."

I agree. Businesses need to know this information in order to plan for Brexit; uncertainty is not helpful at all and people's livelihoods are at risk. It's a shame IDS and the goon squad can't seem to grasp this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:00 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 08:15 AM
Nigel quotes the following:
From your link: "John Bercow, the Speaker of the House of Commons, has set the government a deadline of Tuesday evening to publish the Brexit assessments demanded by parliament or explain why it has not done so.
1. I don't know what the link referred to said, but you can look in Hansard for what the Speaker said. The bit in bold is truncated: Bercow said "...Failing that, I expect Ministers to explain to the House before we rise tomorrow evening why they have not provided them and when they propose to do so."
2 So the papers must be published on his instruction. All the Government can explain is why they have not been released immediately.

1. The link says what I quoted it as saying, I have nothing to gain by falsifying quotes.
2. The version you give from Hansard says: "...Failing that, I expect Ministers to explain to the House before we rise tomorrow evening why they have not provided them and when they propose to do so."
Even that doesn't preclude the possibility of the Government saying that they 'propose to do so' at a time when doing so would not prejudice negotiations.

So, all in all, it does not come down to "You must produce them immediately".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:16 AM

Sigh.


Hansard .

Their link takes you to the top of a page so the first few items are not relevant. Please also note the Government response.

I don't intend to get into a silly argument about this. Here is the source and what you or I or the Guardian or the Daily Mail think does not alter it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:23 AM

You may also like to note what has been said by the Government today in Parliament about the timescale for publication.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:08 PM

Patel, liar. Fallon, tit fondler. Johnson, fat buffoon who has threatened the prospects of a Brit jailed in Iran by shooting his silly mouth off. May's second-in-command a hardcore porn addict, even at work. No discipline whatsoever. Not a dickie bird about brexit for about a week or more. We are enduring a government that has shown itself to be completely unfit for purpose. Be very afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 01:52 AM

My suspicion - and it is nothing more than that - is that these impact papers will be a more significant story than any of those. But not because of anything they say. Still, I have a month or so to wait to find out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 03:28 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:08 PM
Patel, liar. Fallon, tit fondler. Johnson, fat buffoon who has threatened the prospects of a Brit jailed in Iran by shooting his silly mouth off. May's second-in-command a hardcore porn addict, even at work. No discipline whatsoever. Not a dickie bird about brexit for about a week or more.

You seem to have totally missed the very recent discussion, in this thread, about whether 'impact' papers (about Brexit) will be, or should be released.
DMcG has given you a link to the record in Hansard of the discussions in parliament.
So hardly support that there has been: "Not a dickie bird about brexit for about a week or more".

Michael Fallon admitted to touching a journalist's knee 'inappropriately'. You describe him as a 'tit fondler'. Either you have access to information which hasn't yet made it into the papers (or that I have seen) or your knowledge of anatomy is as poor as your grasp of geography.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 04:16 AM

Steve's world seems to be full of "little boxes".....very convenient attempting to defend an ideology based on myth.
But is it liberalism?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 04:25 AM

Duh! Perhaps Nigel, Steve was referring to the lack of Brexit news in the press and the seeming lack of action by the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 04:38 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 04:25 AM
Duh! Perhaps Nigel, Steve was referring to the lack of Brexit news in the press and the seeming lack of action by the government.

I'll see your "Duh" and raise you one.
Most of the papers have been reporting the attempt to get the impact assessments released, so again, no reason for Steve Shaw's claim "Not a dickie bird about brexit for about a week or more"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 05:02 AM

That is one small piece of the puzzle, what have the government been doing, what progress has been made, what agreements have been reached?

The only "news" is about what the government is NOT doing, that is releasing papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 05:09 AM

She was leaning forward fastening her shoelace when he went for her knee. 😙

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 05:36 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 05:09 AM
She was leaning forward fastening her shoelace when he went for her knee. 😙

More typical Shaw 'whimsy'?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 05:43 AM

Regard it more as a hypothesis. And lighten up, Nigel. You come across as Teribus but without the bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:00 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 05:43 AM
Regard it more as a hypothesis. And lighten up, Nigel. You come across as Teribus but without the bollocks.

Ah, right, more whimsy written down as if it is factual in the hope that people will accept it as such.
Your posts are becoming further and further divorced from any sense of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:05 AM

Here is an interesting viewpoint, based on reality. Corbyn heading over the rainbow with the snowflakes.


http://commentcentral.co.uk/labour-set-for-eu-re-entry/

On a separate note surveys show Britons are happier since the brexit vote. Perhaps it is due to the entertainment from pestminster.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:07 AM

No link there Iains, just an error message.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:10 AM

Now for some possible movement on Brexit:
Britain unveils new citizens rights plan to smash EU deadlock

BRITAIN today announced a new "streamlined" registration system EU nationals will use to apply for permanent residency after Brexit in a bid to break the divorce talks deadlock.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM

So all they have to do now is settle the divorce bill. Easy-peasy, Nige!

And, Nige, I abandon all hope when I post here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:25 AM

Patel, liar

But what of her idea that our aid donations could be diverted to the IDF to support their good works?

Anyone here have any problem with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:31 AM

And make sure the NHS gets the ?350 million per week that they promised.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:35 AM

IDF? He probably means the Israel Defense Force

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM

The IDF is hardly on its uppers, is it? Three billion dollars a year in aid for an army in a country as populous as Scotland? The point is she was doing things in an improper, dishonest manner. She should be sacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:54 AM

Raggytash. The link works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 07:03 AM


Anyone here have any problem with that?

Yes, but not because it is Israeli before you leap to that conclusion. For any form of aid you need to be as sure as possible it is having the effect you intend. So we would need to come up with a mechanism to ensure the total humanatarian aid from elsewhere is not being reduced and the funds so freed being diverted elsewhere. That is a problem with all aid, but if given to a group whose only aim is humanarian it is reduced. If, however the recipient is an army of any kind there is a risk of in effect cross funding that army.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 07:11 AM

Just tried it again Iains, comes up with a error message that reads:

"error establishing a database connection"

I've tried about four times, same message.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 07:52 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM
So all they have to do now is settle the divorce bill. Easy-peasy, Nige!
And, Nige, I abandon all hope when I post here.

They have already offered a settlement, but the EU are hoping for a higher figure without discussing what that figure would gain us, or what supposed liabilities it represents.
You have shown, time and again, a total ignorance of how negotiation works.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 08:21 AM

Go and have a lie down. You are genuinely not worth talking to.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 09:56 AM

Hearing the truth has the strangest effect on some people!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:13 AM

Steve Shaw:
First you describe Fallon as a 'Tit fondler'

Then I point out that he only touched a journalist?s knee.

You then claim she was bending to tie her shoelace at the time (presumably to try to claim that his hand may have come into contact with her tit)

When queried on the veracity of this you decide to withdraw into your shell.

I take it then that you withdraw your original claim of Fallon being a 'tit fondler'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:28 AM

Could you please take this discussion to the thread Sexual Misdemeanours that I opened SPECIFICALLY so this thread was not cluttered up with such posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:43 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:28 AM
Could you please take this discussion to the thread Sexual Misdemeanours that I opened SPECIFICALLY so this thread was not cluttered up with such posts.

Thank you for that polite request.

NO!

This particular discussion was a direct response to a comment made by Steve Shaw:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:08 PM
Patel, liar. Fallon, tit fondler. Johnson, fat buffoon who has threatened the prospects of a Brit jailed in Iran by shooting his silly mouth off. May's second-in-command a hardcore porn addict, even at work. No discipline whatsoever. Not a dickie bird about brexit for about a week or more.,
and so is pertinent to this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 11:11 AM

That's you told, Raggytash! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 11:35 AM

No Nigel

It is based on allegations made against the former defence secretary and I opened a thread SPECICALLY to deal with such.

It matters not one jot who brought it up here, but it has no place here.

We are supposed to be adults so saying "please Miss he started it" doesn't wash.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 02:39 PM

So Priti Patel has "resigned." Took long enough, didn't it! I strongly suspect that she didn't even know that the UK doesn't recognise Israel's occupation of a piece of Syria. What she was trying to do secretly was constitutionally impossible, so what was all that about! Now May has another militant brexiteer on the back benches. So we've had Priti, we've had tax-dodging on a monumental scale and we've had institutionalised groping and internet porn-at-work for Theresa's second-in-command (or shall we be charitable and assume that he's given it up?) It's even been suggested that one poor young woman in question can't tell the difference between a dangling tablecloth and a mauler's hand, m'lud!

So what's today's brexit news? Oh, I almost forgot, what with being swamped by these massive diversions, that we're supposed to be leaving the EU and that this distracted and undisciplined shower are in charge of getting us "a deal." If you want to hear about just one of the horrible messes we're in, listen to Radio 4's "Brexit for the Confused" broadcast today. Jesus, we're in deep doodah. Neck bloody deep in the Big Muddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 02:44 PM

Personally I think she should have been sacked rather being allowed to resign. Your views may differ.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 04:25 PM

Desperation, oh you know Brexit'll drive you crazy
Your pain makes you hazy and you are lazy at home
And freedom, oh freedom, that's just Labour talkin'
Your prison is walking through this world all alone
Its always rainin but there there's a rainbow above you
just open the gate and let Europe love you again.

excuse me I left the oven on

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 04:31 PM

Not sure which planet your on Donuel, but I'm fairly sure it isn't the same as mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 05:55 PM

She wasn't "sacked" (she was, actually) because a sacked cabinet minister, a bitter brexiteer, which is what Patel is, would be a far worse backbench presence than someone who had just resigned. The whole thing is a shambles, one which none of us should take any pleasure in. A hundred years from now, children in schools will be taught that this was the most shambolic, undisciplined, divided, chaotic and disastrous government that this country has ever endured. If we can actually afford to run any schools by then, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:18 PM

Broadly, my problem with the resignation is that she has lost the job but is otherwise unscathed. Had she been sacked it would be far harder to give her another cabinet job when the next leader arrives, or a committee chair now, or, come the next election, just automatically reselect her. Those are all things that affect her. Losing this post is by comparison small beer.

And this is not vindictiveness but an attempt to treat the disregard of Parliamentary seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:42 PM

I strongly suspect that she didn't even know that the UK doesn't recognise Israel's occupation of a piece of Syria.

It had nothing to do with Israel's annexation of the Golan Heights which is legal when taken in a defensive war for defensive purposes. It was discussions to provide financial aid to the IDF for the treatment of casualties of the Syrian war, a service which they have provided to thousands of victims from all sides in the conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 07:41 PM

Nothing to do with it. Check it out. There is no way under UK law/constitution that aid could be given to an army in occupation of a territory whose occupation we don't recognise. That's not me saying that. That's how it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 07:52 PM

The meetings centered on funding humanitarian aid being provided by the IDF medical corps to victims of the Syrian conflict. The victims are taken to hospitals in Israel where they receive first class medical treatment at no charge. Whether the UK chooses to recognize the legal annexation or not is irrelevant to the victims but hey, let's not pass up any opportunity to demonize Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 07:58 PM

This is not about demonising Israel. It's about the FACT that the UK does not allow aid to go to armies that are occupying territories in occupations that it does not recognise, either in law or in constitution. Do let us know what your problem is with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 08:07 PM

Any problem with UK financing "Palestinian" terrorism?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 08:25 PM

Sir @EricPickles on Priti Patel: "I cannot imagine there would be this kind of fuss if she had met various people of influence in Belgium, if that is not a contradiction in terms"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 08:42 PM

Would everyone please ignore the addled Ur-Troll Boo-Bad and his predictable Israel bullshit before this thread goes down the drain?

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 08:46 PM

Yeah, well Eric is about the biggest (and fattest) twat in the UK. Ask anyone in Bude who will tell you that he wouldn't understand democracy if it reared up and bit him on one or two of his exceptionally ample bottoms. Also, bobad, in UK politics he's yesterday's man big time. Even the Tories are embarrassed by him. Do try to keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 08:56 PM

Bobad is "commenting" (in his usual bigoted way) on issues that we can't help. It's dead simple. We don't recognise the occupation of the Golan Heights. As such, we can't give aid to the occupying power. That is not my opinion, not anybody's opinion. That's the way it is. I can't do anything about it, Eric fatty Pickles can't do anything about it, and Priti Patel has, belatedly, realised that she can't do anything about it. There is simply no mudcattiferous point to make on the matter. No doubt boobs will keep trying. Maybe he should start another thread on it if he feels so miffed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 03:58 AM

Nigel Farage walks into a bar, and up to the landlord, who is serving.
Nigel : Pint of best bitter please?
Landlord: That'll be three pounds twenty.
Money & beer change hands and Nigel moves aside to allow room for more customers.

Jeremy Corbyn walks in, and approaches the landlord:
Jeremy: I'll have a pint please?
Landlord: Five pound please?
Jeremy pays up, sees the money go in the till and is handed a pint of water.

Jeremy ponders this, and spots Nigel drinking a good pint. He goes over.
J C: Hi, Nigel, what are you drinking?
N F: That's kind of you, but I've already got my pint of best bitter.

Jeremy beckons the landlord to try again.
J C: A pint of best bitter please?
L: Five pounds please?
Jeremy pays up, and receives his beer (the head may be a little large, but he doesn't complain)

A couple of minutes later Nigel finishes his pint and beckons the landlord.
Nigel : Pint of best bitter please?
Landlord: That'll be three pounds twenty.
Money & beer change hands.

Jeremy has watched this exchange and approaches the landlord.
J C: Why have you just charged Nigel three-twenty when you charged me five pounds?
Landlord: He wouldn't have paid it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 04:05 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 11:35 AM
No Nigel
It is based on allegations made against the former defence secretary and I opened a thread SPECICALLY to deal with such.
It matters not one jot who brought it up here, but it has no place here.
We are supposed to be adults so saying "please Miss he started it" doesn't wash.

The fact that you have opened a new thread about the subject doe not prevent it also being discussed here. It has as much to do with this subject as your current discussion of the sacking (or otherwise) of Priti Patel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 04:16 AM

Nigel Farage walks into a bar. Landlord says fuck off you racist bigot.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 04:27 AM

Nigel's joke was much wittier.   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 05:01 AM

Mine isn't a joke. Farage is.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 05:56 AM

You'd have thought, wouldn't you, that Tory brexiteers like our Nigel would have learned by now, especially in light of the last election, that taking Jeremy Corbyn for a fool is an extremely unwise tactic. Exactly the thing that lost Theresa her majority. We should encourage them to keep it up, Dave. The next election may be closer than they think.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 06:05 AM

Another thing is that Theresa May now has Priti Patel on the back benches. Patel's a vicious, ruthless, highly-ambitious right-wing brexitomaniac who isn't going away. She put profits for tobacco companies above people's lives in a previous incarnation. I've heard her variously described as Tebbit come back from the undead and as Thatcher resurrected. Be very afraid, Theresa. She's now outside the tent and she'll soon be pissing in.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 06:28 AM

From the Guardian website:

...But there is other news around today, not least the resumption of Brexit talks in Brussels. As the Times splash (paywall) suggests, there is a link between the Patel story and the negotiations. EU leaders are worried that May's government is so weak it could collapse, putting the Brexit process in jeopardy. The Times's lead story starts: "European Union leaders are preparing for the fall of Theresa May before the new year, it emerged yesterday, as the prime minister lost her second cabinet minister in a week."

The "Times splash" is a reference to today's Times front page.

"Brexit process?" What's one of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 08:58 AM

I was not pointing out Jeremy as a fool, but making a point about the benefits of negotiation before payment.
I suppose I should have realised that it would be lost on certain people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 09:19 AM

making a point about the benefits of negotiation before payment.?

By rambling on about someone paying ?3.20 for a pint of bitter and someone else paying ?5 for a glass of water? No negotiations were entered into. No point was made apart from that you will never earn a living as a comedy writer. I suspect it was lost on more than certain people.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 09:19 AM

What's lost on you Tories is the urgent need for you to start upping your game rather than try to fool us into thinking that taking the piss out of your opponents will get you anywhere. When it's frighteningly clear that Donald Duck and Goofy could do a better job of running the country and negotiating brexit than this shower, it behoves you to start looking to yourselves. You've got this country into one hell of a mess. Continuing to lampoon someone who you spent months ridiculing, a tactic that seriously backfired, is a waste of your energy and is a sure-fire way of getting him elected. Which could be very soon. It's almost as if that's what you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 12:05 PM

Quite right. The tories are a mess, a laughing stock. May is in hock to a bunch of backward religious/nationalist zealots in the form of the DUP and in hock to everyone else in the tory party as well. The foreign office is an utter disaster area, seemingly operating without any respect for the procedures in place and with Boris with his clodhopper fat feet stuck permanently in his fat gob; the family of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe are in despair at his utter incompetence. The only reason he's still in the job is MayBot can't afford to have him loose on the back benches; some consolation for the Ratcliffe family if Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe gets hand a longer sentence because of that gobshite's stupidity.

Luckily, it's not all bad news for the Brexiteer Flying Circus. Many of them have their cash stashed offshore so they won't suffer, that's for the ordinary folk only. The list reads like a Who's Who if complete twats: The Brexiters who put their money offshore

Still no sign of the ?350m per week for the NHS either. Now there's a surprise.

If you voted for Brexit, you'd been done up like a kipper (geddit?).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 12:29 PM

Latest appointment , Penny Mordant....a fine upstanding Brexiteer and a woman into the bargain!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 01:33 PM

Well she went belly-up in that dive that she did. A microcosmic prediction, perhaps, of her imminent fate along with the rest of the shower. We have a lot to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 05:52 AM

Wot a surprise! This will get the remainders squawking big time!


http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/11/09/brexit-boon-starting-salaries-rise-sharply-supply-cheap-migrant-workers-falls/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:13 AM

Two things struck me straight off:

1. It's reported on Brietbart news

2. Domestic staff do not (normally) get salaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:15 AM

I suppose posting a link from Breibart was an attempt to troll.

Must. Try. Harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM

Blimey, you're really excelling yourself this morning, Iains. First, a load of incontinent bile from the Express (see Paradise Papers thread where I have more to say about that), now proudly linking to an extremist right-wing website? And what's a "remainder" when it's at 'ome?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM

"2. Domestic staff do not (normally) get salaries."
What part of cuckoo land do you inhabit?

and I suppose anything that does not emanate from the collected works of corbyn, the bbc and gruniard must be false news!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:28 AM

Domestic staff tend to be paid wages, frequently paid on a hourly basis. I do not think I have even heard of domestic staff being salaried.

I'm ready to be corrected of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 07:09 AM

Once again, it is worth looking at the primary source without getting bogged down on commentator's interpretation. So here are some extracts from the paper Briebart got excited about:


=======

Report on Jobs: Staff appointments increase at softest pace for six months

?????????

Filed under Press release

Wednesday, 08 November 2017


?Key points:?

?

Growth of staff appointments held back by uncertain outlook and skill shortages
Availability of permanent and temporary workers continues to fall sharply
Starting salaries increase at second-quickest rate since November 2015
?
(Omitted sections)

October data pointed to a further marked decline in the availability of temporary and permanent workers across the UK, with the latter noting the steeper rate of reduction.?

?

...leading to further increase in pay rates

?

A sustained upturn in demand for staff and lower candidate availability led to further increases in pay. Starting salaries rose sharply overall, with the rate of inflation quickening to its second-strongest since November 2015. In contrast, temp pay rates rose at a pace that, though marked, was the weakest since March.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 08:16 AM

Good news: The bloke that wrote Article 50 says it's reversible. We'll loose our rebate (I think) but they'll let us back in. There's a chink of light in the suffocating darkness of alt-right idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 05:17 AM

LBC's James O'Brien defending, perhaps surprisingly, The Praying Mantis's role in the utter, disastrous debacle of BrexShit unfolding before our eyes....I do believe he has a point, several points, in fact!

https://www.facebook.com/LBC/videos/10155580033736558/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 05:33 AM

I wonder if those who said sterling was soaring (or approvingly quoted newspapers that said is was) think 'soaring is the best adjective for the exchange rate since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 07:35 AM

That James O'Brien piece chimed with me too. I think that as time goes on it's going to dawn on more and more people that the country is heading for disaster. Our trade with the rest of the world is declining (see this month's figures), we are net importers of goods and always will be, the biggest chunk of our trade is with EU countries and always will be, but even the very best deal imaginable with them will be a damn sight poorer than the one we have now. There is no long queue of countries waiting to buy our expensive goods when countries such as China and India can mop up the customers at half the price and all of the quality. Even with low or no EU tariffs (a pipe-dream), we will be subject to their trading rules in all kinds of ways and we will have no say. I'm betting there there are even people posting to this thread as ardent brexiteers who secretly see the truth, watching the catastrophe unfold as they realise that the EU holds all the cards and is going to give us nothing like the deal we want and desperately need. Pour encourager les autres and all that. There's a lot of hubris around, a lot of people who, if they don't already, are going to realise what a blunder the referendum was and what their decision was. A lot of them will be slow to abandon the hubris, drop the little-Englander Empire guff and finally admit it. The main political parties are paralysed on this. May and Corbyn both know that we are in deep doodah and that the leave vote was a disaster. Neither of them can admit to it because it would make them immediate electoral toast (although it's noticeable that Jeremy Corbyn has quietly dropped his "stand aside and let US do the job" mantra. That's the last thing he wants). We all have to live in this country and nobody wants to see things getting very bad. There will be no triumphalism on the remain side. I'd like to see the main parties get their heads together (the SNP and LibDems are already there) and put up a united front to the people of this country to tell us that we can't go through with this and are abandoning brexit forthwith. It was an advisory referendum after all and Article 50 can be scuppered. You may think I'm bloody loopy. Come back and tell me that in nine months' time if you dare.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 07:45 AM

O'Brein piece is a good summary of the whole situation. How far have we sunk?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 03:06 PM

I wonder if those who said sterling was soaring (or approvingly quoted newspapers that said is was) think 'soaring is the best adjective for the exchange rate since then.

No-one here said it was soaring.
It was me who quoted the reports, but only because they flatly contradicted Rag's statement about growth.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 05:00 PM

Flatly contradicted :-)

Are you bored professor

What do you make of the full one cent fall since you posted about a half a cent rise.

Taking into account that a half a cent rise is "soaring", according to you, a full cent fall must therefore be plummeting !!

Man the lifeboats !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 05:43 PM

Now now, Raggytash, I saw a buzzard soaring downward this afternoon...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 05:53 PM

Sad little man isn't he.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 05:57 PM

Do you think he realises that all we do is take the piss out of his posts and laugh our socks off at his floundering about.

When I've really nothing better to do I quite enjoy his delusional ineptitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 07:47 PM

At last, something from Steve Shaw that I can agree with (in part)

may think I'm bloody loopy. Come back and tell me that in nine months' time if you dare.

Of course, the comment about "in nine months' time" is rather strange, as we don't escape from the EU until March 2019, so what "9 months" represents I've no idea.

But I will agree that he's "loopy"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 07:55 PM

From: Stu - PM
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 08:16 AM
Good news: The bloke that wrote Article 50 says it's reversible. We'll loose our rebate (I think) but they'll let us back in. There's a chink of light in the suffocating darkness of alt-right idiocy.
Don't worry about the rebate.
Tony Blair (Labour) already gave away part of it, in exchange for a promise of a review of the CAP (which never happened). That shows how much you can trust the EU!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 08:11 PM

Nine months' time, Nigel (nothing to do with conception-to-birth, by the way, though you do appear to specialise in MISconceptions), refers to the time period after which even little Englanders such as yourself will finally admit that brexit is insane and that we'd better ditch the idea pdq. That's what. Opinions on that point are useless at this stage. Therefore, Nige, do refer back to me after the nine months. Next July, shall we say. You'll be eating shit by then, but I'll take no pleasure in your misery. We really are all in this together this time. Well, Nigel, unless you're not telling us something. Are you, perhaps, a non-dom, an offshore tax-dodger or Priti Patel in drag?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 02:45 AM

The was an interesting article by Jonathan Freedland recently that is worth mulling over. One of the points he makes is that despite all the things that Leavers regard as disasterous

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 02:54 AM

Sorry, long posts are a real problem on this phone. I will finish that later. In the meantime the article is still worth a read.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 03:18 AM

Right, let's try again:


There was an interesting article by Jonathan Freedland recently that is worth mulling over. One of the points he makes is that despite all the things that Remainers regard as disastrous, the support for Brexit has barely wavered.   Within two weeks it is likely that the UK will have to agree to pay much more to the EU just to enable talks to start on trade, which crosses one of the 'red lines' for many Leavers, yet in all probability the support will continue unchanged; if anything the resolve of Leavers will be hardened. There is something in need explaining here. Gordon Brown, like Steve, suggests that by the middle of next year it will be obvious to all that none of the four objective of the Leave campaign will be met. But, if Freedman is right, and I think he is, the support for leaving will be as strong as ever.

To see this, let me quote on of ake's post in full, because I think it indicates how many Brexiteers think:


Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 12:29 PM

Latest appointment , Penny Mordant....a fine upstanding Brexiteer and a woman into the bargain!


What is notable about that is there is not a hint of her ability to do the job, her experience, or her attitude to the department. No, the key factor of interest is that she is a Brexiteer. I am not picking on ake here: that does seem to be the normal response. And, to be fair, I think if someone supporting Remain had got the position, a lot of that side would see that as the key quality as well, rather than her ability. Certainly all of the media reporting would be "how does this change the balance?"

So I think Steve and Gordon Brown are right that it will be obvious by mid next year that none of the leave objectives have been met. But I disagree that this will lead people to change their minds. Instead they will be more angry at the EU and more determined than ever to separate, whatever the cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 03:58 AM

Thank you for the brief analysis of how I think "D".....did it have to be quite SO brief?   :0)
However I think your heart is in the right place...for a remainer! So I forgive you.

I have always thought that there are so many ideological irons in the fire concerning Brexit, that we have no option other to walk away and "let them whistle". I still think it will come to that, as the remainers seem determined that the result of the referendum must be reversed.
The govt of course are weakened by events, and frightened of the media especially "social media", which is turning into a weapon of mass destruction, in the hands of children.

These boots were made for walkin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 04:10 AM

BTW...is it only the word "Brexiteer" that you object to, or are "women" beyond reproach?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 04:30 AM

I am not objecting to the Brexiteer reference, ake. I am just pointing out that of all her characteristics that was the highlight. I fully accept you pointed out she was a woman as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 07:26 AM

I read the Freedland piece before you posted it and wasn't surprised that polls show leavers still filled with resolve. That's referendums for you: they have the baleful effect hardening attitudes and polarising the country. The polls also reveal what we always knew, that the leave vote was largely predicated on the success of the leave campaign whipping up little England and instilling fear of foreigners. Those are the immovable rocks in the debate. The ghastly effects on the economy and on living standards creep up on us far more gradually and won't change minds very easily. Things have to get very bad in those regards before we sit up and take notice. Every day we are sold the massive Tory lie about their amazing achievements in creating jobs. The truth is that millions of those jobs are bogus self-employed, fake apprenticeships, temporary, part-time, seasonal or zero-hours. The good old "flexible jobs market," a euphemism for low pay, job insecurity and exploitation. The growth and productivity figures, far weaker than the Eurozone's, are obstinate testimony to that. The collapsed pound leading to inflation is another factor that is hard to blame on the brexit vote in the eyes of leavers: we get the Nigel-style cyclical adjustment argument. There's always an answer for adverse trends that can avoid blaming brexit, just as there are answers for global warming that ignore carbon emissions. The capacity for denial is legendary. But I'm predicting that that situation will change by around the middle of next year. The bad things will finally become undeniable upshots of that disastrous vote.

We elect our politicians to act in the interests of this country. Among their ranks there are still a few clowns who think that brexit is a great idea. But this is too important to allow party politics to dictate events. We need our politicians to get honest and act in the interest of the country. That means a united front in ditching brexit. No more bloody referendums either. Just do the job we elected them to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 07:31 AM

By the way, when you say that the support for leaving will be as strong as ever, it's always worth boringly remembering that just over a third of the electorate voted to leave. It's a fair bet that a large proportion of those found it hard to make up their minds. So if the politicians finally wise up and ditch brexit I don't think we'll quite manage a bloody revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 07:38 AM

I agree with that, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 08:30 AM

Pretty much sums it up, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 03:05 PM

Oh boy! If anyone wants an example of the new definition of 'echo chamber' they should read the posts in this thread between 02:45 AM and 08:30 0AM.

Just because you all agree with each other doesn't mean you are right.

I just watched the last half of the repeat of the Andrew Marr program. He was interviewing James Dyson. You know, the inventor and manufacturer of the eponymous vacuum cleaner. Guess what? He thinks it's time that the UK government walked away from the Brexit talks and embraced No Deal.

Should I believe you lot or him? I think I'll believe him.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 04:04 PM

Sure, Stanron. You believe a man who abandoned this country long before there was any brexit talk. You and James Dyson would sound great singing Rule Britannia together in harmony. Why not go the whole hog and make a CD?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 04:49 PM

Would that be the James Dyson who cares so much about this country and his British former workforce that he took his production facility away from the U.K. to Malaysia - all so that he could make more money?

James Dyson doesn't care about the U.K., James Dyson cares about James Dyson. Just like the rest of the immensely wealthy cadre who are driving the U.K. towards the disaster of a hard Brexit - not because it's good for the country or its population, but because it's good for themselves?

And they've successfully brainwashed the feeble-minded, easily-led suckers who support it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 04:54 PM

"You believe a man who abandoned this country long before there was any brexit talk"
Your understanding of capitalism is of the same abysmal standard as most other things you pontificate on. Do you think he runs a charity like Oxfam or the RSPCA?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 05:15 PM

He abandoned the UK and took his business elsewhere. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance, and I don't want to hear his detestable views about brexit or anything else. I might even put my ancient DC-14 Animal on eBay.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 05:26 PM

He moved manufacturing production to Malasia in 2002. Tell me, Mr Shaw, who governed the UK in 2002?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 05:33 PM

What does 'who governed the U.K. in 2002' have to do with anything? Dyson moved his production to make more money, yet he has the brass neck to claim to be a 'patriot'.

Patriot my arse. He's a greedy, two-faced cunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 05:43 PM

Spot on, John. If I want to hear opinions about the UK, brexit and the UK economy, I'll listen to people who have a real stake in this country, not some charlatan who found that he could go overseas and pay his workforce a lot less money. There are plenty of business people in this country who want to stay in this country who are expressing severe disquiet about brexit without threatening us that they are thinking of doing a Dyson and buggering off. Those are the people who I'd ten times rather listen to, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 06:01 PM

Oh. Are you saying that Dyson is not now a UK company and does not now pay UK taxes? Taxes that the likes of Amazon now avoids?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 06:44 PM

I am just listening to the Andrew Marr show where James Dyson was interviewed. Afterwards, Micheal Gove was also interviewed and asked what he thought of James DYson's remarks. remarks. I quote "I can understand James' point of view but on this occasion I respectfully disagree with him."


Ok, Stanron, cast your vote: Dyson or Gove? I am sure you can find a full recording on Catch-up or similar if you suspect I am misrepresenting what was said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 07:25 PM

The subject was Brexit. Dyson said "If you threaten to walk away the EU will give in". (OK thats not verbatim, it's approximate)

He's been there. He's done it. I trust his word. Of course you don't.

You are the liberal left. You want to see the UK fail.

The UK as part of the EU, the anti democratic EU, the corrupt EU that has consistently failed to produce financial accounts, the dishonest EU that never revealed it's final destination as a United States of Europe because it knew that the people involved would not vote for that, the UK as subjugated to this regime is no longer Great Britain. That is exactly what you want.

The Liberal Left has never escaped from being under the influence of the Communist theology of the 19th Century. It's like a destructive fungi at the heart of our society. It feeds on envy, inequality and wishful thinking. You can get power by making people feel cheated, but history proves that you can't improve people's lives by enslaving them.

However,

With one leap he was free.

This still remains a possibility.

Support Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 08:14 PM

Have a nice cup of cocoa, Stanron. 😂 I don't give a monkey's fart about Dyson's taxes. I know nothing. But what he did do was to take thousands of jobs out of this country. He's walked away. He doesn't give a flying thingie whether the UK fails or not. But now he thinks he has a voice. Hey, Stanron, with fiends like him, who needs enemas. You seriously need to choose a slightly better cheerleader for brexit, old chap!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 02:06 AM

"Oh. Are you saying that Dyson is not now a UK company and does not now pay UK taxes? Taxes that the likes of Amazon now avoids?"

Did you ever actually attend English classes at school (assuming you ever went to school)? Who mentioned 'paying his taxes'? What we're discussing is taking jobs away from the U.K., away from the very British people he claims to care about, simply in order to pay lower wages and make more money.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 02:32 AM

You still haven't commented on why Gove thought Dyson was wrong. Or is Gove part of the liberal left?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 02:36 AM

Sorry, that should have been italicised, not underlined.
Bloody primitive, mediaeval HTML!! 😳

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 02:40 AM

Those who don't mind whether corporations pay their taxes might like to watch
this video. The title means "Silence: we're robbing a hospital" and the words at the end mean "When big businesses don't pay their fair share of taxes, they prevent access by the public to all basic public services, such as hospitals. And it is the poorest who are paying the price of it."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 04:15 AM

Spot on, Thompson.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 04:35 AM

Be nice if people just did a little basic research!

http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/01/technology/dyson-uk-expansion-research/index.html
I suggest the link below is studied where Mr Dyson is being discussed, and his tax payment. That means below the take on clot corbyn.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4899995/trevor-kavanagh-opinion-jeremy-corbyn-pm-popularity-contest/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 04:42 AM

!/2 a billion tax. That pays for 12500 teachers. I would say that makes Mr Dyson a fairly useful member of society.
I wonder how many teachers you need to give an equivalent tax take from their salaries? How many shaw clones?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 04:56 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 08:14 PM
Have a nice cup of cocoa, Stanron. 😂 I don't give a monkey's fart about Dyson's taxes. I know nothing. But what he did do was to take thousands of jobs out of this country.

Interesting admission there, hidden away in the usual bile.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 04:59 AM

Now just sit back and wait for the usual insults and threats to run and tell his mummy report me to the moderators.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM

You really are a nasty little piece of work aren't you, Nigel. And good to see Iains still quoting that paragon of press virtue, The Scum. Must make the hearts of all Brexiteers swell with pride.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:58 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM

You really are a nasty little piece of work aren't you, Nigel.

No. But as you give no reason for your sudden unprovoked attack it is a little difficult for me to argue with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 06:13 AM

Rag,
Flatly contradicted :-)
Are you bored professor

No. Those articles did flatly contradict your claims about the growth figures.

I made no comment about the currency, except that it had risen on the back of the excellent growth figures, as confirmed by those articles.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 06:21 AM

it is a little difficult for me to argue with it.

Interesting admission there, hidden away in the usual bile.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 06:24 AM

You carrying on living in cloud cuckoo lounge professor. No skin off my nose.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 06:26 AM

Then identify what I got wrong in my post Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM

You posted it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 06:52 AM

" I know nothing" This from a well educated scientist that does not distinguish between fact and fiction.

Finally an admission from the sad fellow.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:11 AM

You posted it.

Yes I did, and you can not identify anything wrong in anything I actually said.

Despite that you responded, "Sad little man isn't he. " and
"Do you think he realises that all we do is take the piss out of his posts and laugh our socks off at his floundering about.
When I've really nothing better to do I quite enjoy his delusional ineptitude."

Why. What did I say that was wrong?
Nothing. You have no reply but vacuous abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:12 AM

scientist

Lol........a teacher of science to school children who fancies himself a scientist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:20 AM

If you cannot figure it out for yourself I am not going to waste my time.

I really have far better things to do today.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:29 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM
You really are a nasty little piece of work aren't you, Nigel. And good to see Iains still quoting that paragon of press virtue, The Scum. Must make the hearts of all Brexiteers swell with pride.
DtG

From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:58 AM
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM
You really are a nasty little piece of work aren't you, Nigel.
No. But as you give no reason for your sudden unprovoked attack it is a little difficult for me to argue with it.

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 06:21 AM
"it is a little difficult for me to argue with it."
Interesting admission there, hidden away in the usual bile.
:D tG

No 'bile' in my post, and claiming the "It's a little difficult for me to argue with" is an admission, when I was responding to an unprovoked insult is a little steep even for the standards that some here use.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM

Keep digging Nigel.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 08:20 AM

Rag,
If you cannot figure it out for yourself I am not going to waste my time.
I really have far better things to do today.

HA HA HA HA!

So, you could point out errors but you choose not too!

HA HA HA.

If you could identify anything wrong in my posts you would.
You can't.
All you can do is post baseless, vacuous abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 08:45 AM

A little question for you professor.

You clearly agree with the newspaper report that a rise of half of one cent (less than one half one one percent) in the value of the pound against the Euro equated to the pound "soaring".

So, since the "headline" that you got so excited about, the pound has fallen by one and a half cents. Three times as much.

So does this equate to the pound plummeting. Surely if the fall is three times greater it must do.

This is not even to mention the nineteen cent fall in the value of the pound since Brexit. (Funny, you never seem to mention that part)

We're all doooommmed !!!!

Anyway I'm off overseas shortly, I may read your answer later in the week.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 09:15 AM

You clearly agree with the newspaper report that a rise of half of one cent (less than one half one one percent) in the value of the pound against the Euro equated to the pound "soaring".

No, I have no opinion on that and expressed none.
I only posted to correct your false assertion that the growth figures were bad.
They were good.
Good enough to trigger a rise in sterling.
You were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 09:22 AM

If you want to believe that professor you carry on.

Anything to say about the nineteen cent fall since Brexit ..........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 09:26 AM

If you want to believe that professor you carry on.

WHAT HAVE I SAID THAT YOU DISBELIEVE???!!

Why are you unable to identify a single thing I have said that is wrong?

(answer, because there is nothing.)

Have a good trip Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 10:00 AM

I will have a great trip, for one I have less temptation to read your drivel.

I have told you numerous times why I think a half a cent rise is not "soaring", you as usual ignore everything you don't like, so no change there.

Did you have a whip round in your church to donate to the Errislannan church thats been wrecked by vandals.

No ......... probably not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 11:37 AM

I have told you numerous times why I think a half a cent rise is not "soaring", you as usual ignore everything you don't like, so no change there.

But I never said it.

I have less temptation to read your drivel.

You have failed to identify anything I have said that is not accurate and true.

I identified your claim that the growth figures were bad as wrong, and it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 11:48 AM

grow up professor

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 11:52 AM

Why, what have I said that was wrong?
You have failed to find a single fault in my posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 11:54 AM

Give over you two. Get a room.

Meanwhile, any deal will be voted on as it will be an act of parliament. Yay! There's a chance we can stop this madness.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 12:14 PM

No doubt David Davies is a liberal leftie out to wreck Brexit.


We will see more concessions in Parliament and to the EU in the next few weeks, I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:54 PM

David Davis, has behaved very shrewdly and has spiked the guns of the people who wish to reverse the referendum result.

The wrecking crew in parliament can now have their vote on whatever deal is available and if it is not to their liking, Britian will leave the EU and operate as a sovereign nation under WTO rules.
This has the added advantage that if in the unlikely event of something going wrong, it can be blamed on the bloody mindedness of the "remainers" in parliament and their cheerleaders in the country.

Checkmate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 06:40 PM

Cor. Been away, more or less, for a day since my last post to this thread, and it looks like the cockroaches have well and truly crawled out of the woodwork! Viz:

"I wonder how many teachers you need to give an equivalent tax take from their salaries? How many shaw clones?"

"Now just sit back and wait for the usual insults and threats to run and tell his mummy report me to the moderators."

"Interesting admission there, hidden away in the usual bile."

"Lol........a teacher of science to school children who fancies himself a scientist."

"' I know nothing' This from a well educated scientist that does not distinguish between fact and fiction."

"Finally an admission from the sad fellow."

My, I feel complimented! Nothing so fine as observing other fellows' insecurities. The common factor gleaned from the above "contributions" is that the chap I've quoted contruibute absolutely nothing, ever, to any of these discussions. In the words of the psychiaristbin thstbwobderful episode of Fawlty Towers, there's enough materual here for a whole conference! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 06:44 PM

Gosh, it's been a long day with hundreds of miles of boggle-eyed driving! Here's the last paragraph again, unscrambled this time.

"The common factor gleaned from the above "contributions" is that the chaps I've quoted contribute absolutely nothing, ever, to any of these discussions. In the words of the psychiatrist in that wonderful episode of Fawlty Towers, there's enough material here for a whole conference! 😂"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 09:06 PM

By your own admission YOU haven't said anything, so do us all a favour and get the journalist who wrote the article to post on here and I will discuss the matter with him, or perferably shut up until such times as YOU have something interesting to contribute.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 02:17 AM

That's an interesting analysis, Ake. As you would expect I don't see it that way. But Ithat's ok: I never claim perfection of vision.   I agree it would be a Machiavellian level of shrewdness if this was Davis' plan all along and he fooled people into thinking they had wrung this out of him but in actuality they had unwittingly contributed to his Grand Plan. But It seems very unlikely.

I am a bit disappointed by the last bit though - do you really think it is manouvering to allocate blame for anything that might go wrong? After all, if the vote went Davis's way it would be the deal he negotiated so no one else is 'to blame' and if the vote is rejected it would be WTO rules which many people here including you have argued for, so again I don't see how those who voted against the deal could be sensibly blamed for anything that went wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 03:39 AM

As I understand the latest plan for a 'Final vote' put forward by David Davis:
Once all the negotiations are complete, the results will be put to Parliament, and if the 'Remain' side manage to vote it down, we leave on WTO terms.
Similarly, if we increase our offer for a 'divorce settlement', negotiations can proceed immediately. If we don't then get enough movement on our other requirements (to justify the new payment), then when the vote comes the 'Leave' side can vote it down, and we leave on WTO terms (with no 'Divorce settlement').

It looks good to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 03:42 AM

So... it's actually not such a good vote at all. Either go with the deal the incompetent idiots manage to eek out or crash out with no deal. It's a shame those who support leaving with no deal won't be the ones to suffer; their lack of understanding and empathy for those that will tells us a lot about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 03:45 AM

Well it's hypothetical "D", but if a deal was struck with the EU which was then voted down by the people in parliament who are opposed to leaving, then if things do not work out in practice with WTO rules, it can surely be claimed that the original deal should have been allowed to pass?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 03:47 AM

Stu's post illustrates the undemocratic stance of most "remainers" and their real ideologically based motivation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 04:01 AM

I think, "hung by their own petard" could well be appropriate to the "remainers"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 04:09 AM

Rag,
By your own admission YOU haven't said anything,

I have. I said that you were wrong about the growth figures. They were good.

so do us all a favour and get the journalist who wrote the article to post on here

It was the Economic Correspondents of both the Telegraph and the Independent. Take it up with them

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 04:23 AM

So... it's actually not such a good vote at all.

Don't worry about that too much Stu - there's some 300 amendments to go through yet. The important thing is not the proposal but the acceptance that Parliament as a whole has a say it. Once that has been accepted in principle, the exact nature of the vote can be determined during the thrashing around the details of the bill that will occupy the next few weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 04:37 AM

I am holding out hope for the amendments, it's the only chance both sides get a say in how the negotiating can be shaped. The idea of a fixed leaving date is utterly idiotic; even the most inexperienced businessperson knows full well that fixing a date like this will lead to unwanted compromise and the sort of pressure that can lead to mistakes. I'm not against deadlines as such (I work to hard deadlines myself all the time) as they can concentrate the mind wonderfully, but they also take away any flexibility and if you don't need to have one, there's no good reason to impose one, unless it's to placate your own back benchers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 04:52 AM

The only "thrashing about" is in the legs of the "remainers"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 05:28 AM

You can't be "hung by your own petard." A petard was a metal bomb filled with gunpowder. The saying is "hoist with your own petard." "Hoist" in that sense does not quite mean yanked up, as by a pulley. It's the variant past participle of a defunct verb "hoise" which possibly meant, in the sense above, blown sky high (or at least up into the air) by your own bomb. The phrase was famously used by Shakespeare in Hamlet. Hope this helps him who who is, sadly however, quite likely beyond all help.

The concept of that final Commons vote is a sham. There will be no split. Either all will vote yes to any deal or the whole thing will look so hopeless that the powers that be will recommend a vote against and all will follow. The people are watching, along with the Daily Mail, and the hard electoral realties will be casting their shadow over the whole charade. Long before then, what we need is for May, Corbyn, Cable and Sturgeon to lock themselves in a room and not emerge until they have produced a no-quibble joint statement thrashed out to the effect that, in the interests of this country, the brexit process will be halted forthwith, and including an agreement that there will be will a major push by the UK to start negotiations on the reform of the EU. We are far from alone in Europe in desiring that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 05:37 AM

" I agree it would be a Machiavellian level of shrewdness if this was Davis' plan all along and he fooled people into thinking they had wrung this out of him but in actuality they had unwittingly contributed to his Grand Plan. But It seems very unlikely."

I think "D" that Mr Davis is well aware of the old adage ...and I paraphrase just for Steve :0), when one sups with the devil, one needs an exceedingly long spoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 06:05 AM

From Steve. :0)......"My, I feel complimented! Nothing so fine as observing other fellows' insecurities."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 06:25 AM

"Stu's post illustrates the undemocratic stance of most "remainers" and their real ideologically based motivation."

Nope. Your attitude to remainers is quasi-totalitarian. You seem obsessed by wanting to shut us up. A minority (and a pretty large one at that) arguing against a process that they see as being against the interests of the country is a very democratic thing and you should be applauding the fact that we live in a country where such freedoms exist. Your persistent carping about how we are being undemocratic and how we are undermining brexit is a sure sign that you yourself are frightened of confronting the hard realities of whst is going on and feel wobbly about the whole thing. And so you should, as should all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 06:26 AM

It's just so depressing that the hard Brexiteers are dominating the debate, for all the whining about democracy and "taking back control" when the push comes to shove the Brexiteers are looking after their vested interests and trying to impose their own ideology. So when remainers say "fair enough, we're leaving" (and most have, however unhappy we are about it) and want to get involved in the manner of our departure and the implications for us all we are totally left out of the debate unless we agree with a few hardened tory eurosceptics.

This is utterly wrong, and leads to massive resentment. If the hard Brexiteers won't even entertain the idea that they might have to compromise some of THEIR long-held convictions then what choice does anyone in opposition have but to either a) alter the terms and process to allow more debate and get some influence on the negotiation or b) Say "fuck it" as no-one is listening or interested in meaningful dialogue and work to scupper the Brexit completely.

Simply sating that because people voted remain they can no longer have a say in the democratic process including Brexit is not only wrong, it's divisive, hypocritical and has to be called out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 08:35 AM

Aaaaaannnnnnnndddddd... the Russians are here! So yesterday MayBot ranted on about the Russians meddling in elections (referendums?) in during her speech the Guildhall, and now Dirty Damien has come out with this, after it was revealed a Russian agent tried to stir up anti-muslim sentiment following the attack on Westminster bridge.

British MP calls on Twitter to release Russian 'troll factory' tweets

Given we know Farage was not only a huge admirer of Putin but has been linked to meetings between the Russians and the Trump campaign, I wonder if these sudden announcements are paving the way for some more news. Putin will love Brexit as it accomplishes his aims of destabilising the EU and taking the UK off the world stage as a major player; it's not inconceivable he is involved somewhere in all this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 08:54 AM

"hung by their own petard"

More appropriate to your grasp of things, Ake. Do look up the definition of petard, and than explain this "hanging" bit.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 12:04 PM

Hung by the neck or blown up by their own explosives, makes no difference really ......they're toast!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 12:15 PM

"My, I feel complimented! Nothing so fine as observing other fellows' insecurities."
The well educated scientist that knows nothing is now trying to kid us that he can remote sense insecurity. All this without any formal qualifications to lend a tad of authenticity to his warblings!
Now if we consider the findings of Viennese psychoanalyst Alfred Adler, who coined the term inferiority complex, we can recognise certain traits in certain of our posters. According to Adler, people who feel inferior go about their days overcompensating through what he called ?striving for superiority.? The only way these inwardly uncertain people can feel happy is by making others decidedly unhappy. To Adler, this striving for superiority lies at the core of neurosis. Now who can we recognise here
I wonder. It seems to fit the boy blunder like a glove!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 12:51 PM

Well I certainly appear to be better educated than you. At my school they taught us how to proceed with civility and good manners. At least when I fall short of that I'm doing it voluntarily. You appear not to be able to help it. Now this is a brexit thread, apparently. Perhaps you'd consider making your next post relevant to the topic instead of making it yet another senseless and childish tirade of rudeness.   Moving on.

I notice that there is no unanimity among Tory MPs regarding the setting of a fixed leaving date (not just a date, but even the hour of the day fer chrissake). In normal times I'd find typical Tory blunders of that kind, attracting ridicule as they do, amusing. But these are not normal times and what I'm not seeing is serious politicians doing a serious job. We're in big trouble, aren't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 12:58 PM

No, David Davis knows exactly what he is doing.....next Tory leader?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 01:29 PM

I see the first frosts have caused a dieback in the weed population. How sad!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 02:10 PM

Watching the news coverage of the debate. There is a fair wodge of tories who are not happy with the fact the brexiteers seem intent on us crashing out without a deal. Tories tearing themselves to bits live on telly.

Triffic entertainment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 04:15 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 12:51 PM
Well I certainly appear to be better educated than you. At my school they taught us how to proceed with civility and good manners. At least when I fall short of that I'm doing it voluntarily.

An involuntary lapse in civility or good manners may just be a slip. To deliberately lapse is just bad manners. It seems the teaching didn't take.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 04:22 AM

Nice to see all those tories up in arms at being called brexit mutineers by the Torygraph. Wonder why they are not up in arms when the tory rags are demonising Corbyn and the Labour party?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 04:38 AM

Back to the subject matter, the current moves to set the date for our exit are clearly designed to give a degree of certainty to proceedings.
There have been enough complaints that indecision and uncertainty are not helping businesses. Having a definitely set date will help alleviate these.
Not having a clearly set date runs the risk of Brexit suffering delays while the various parties continue to squabble.
A large majority in Parliament voted to issue Article 50, why the resistance to setting the timetable?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 04:43 AM

Well, here is one scenario. Suppose absolutely everything is agreed by that date except one item of significance - for instance some aspect of the Northern Ireland border. Let's also assume both sides are confident it can be settled with a further two weeks of discussion.

Does it make sense to say we have reached an arbitrary point in time, so we will throw out everything we have agreed to go with something we both think is worse?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 05:01 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 04:43 AM
Well, here is one scenario. Suppose absolutely everything is agreed by that date except one item of significance - for instance some aspect of the Northern Ireland border. Let's also assume both sides are confident it can be settled with a further two weeks of discussion.
Does it make sense to say we have reached an arbitrary point in time, so we will throw out everything we have agreed to go with something we both think is worse?

If they can get everything else sorted within the timescale, I can hardly believe that a final matter should take another two weeks. By giving a definitive timescale they have to work to have everything completed. Otherwise it may become 'another two weeks' which becomes another month . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 05:14 AM

So is that scenario impossible? Unlikely, I grant. But impossible?

And by the way you notice I said 'both sides' were confident it could be resolved. I can certainly imagine ways that could arise. It might, for example, need a formal signature by all those who were party to the Good Friday agreement. That is, the proposal might all settled in principle but the formalities were incomplete. Under a fixed timetable all would be jettisoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM

By way of a little light relief but indicating that the two halves will never agree - about anything!

Remainers and leavers are worlds apart

Well done steaks? Nah...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 05:52 AM

I know that nothing about any of this farcical tragedy is supposed to be funny, but I notice that the time of our departure has been set for midnight on 29 March 2019.

That would be midnight Central European Time.

So that's 11pm UK time.

So we can't even walk out in triumph having "taken back control" of the clock. The very last act of the EU will be to nick an hour off us!

Oh, and by the way, Nigel, here's an entirely voluntary lapse in my customary good manners: sod off.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 06:05 AM

" my customary good manners:" you'r 'aving a laff boy!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 06:15 AM

Good survey, that one, Dave. So, if you voted leave, you are more likely:

...to be Islamophobic (attitude to burqa)

...to be racist (see above, plus attitude to golliwog acceptability)

...to be a fan of Donal-Jerk (they didn't find a single remainer who was a fan of Trump)

...to be a climate change denier (attitude to Paris agreement and to fracking)

...to be anti-BBC (even though it's demonstrable that the BBC is overwhelmingly establishment and Tory)

...uninformed about the funding of public services such as education

...homophobic (attitude to gay sex and whether you "choose" to be gay)

...and illiberal (attitude to abortion).

Not tarring anyone. I only said "more likely."

But well-done steaks? Give over. A well-done steak is not a steak. I can forgive most things, but I cannot condone "well-done steaks." And I will not pay five quid for a steak then put ketchup on it. Not even Heinz.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 06:21 AM

From: Iains -

" my customary good manners:" you'r 'aving a laff boy!

Hmm... Spot the irony, chaps, not to speak of the abundant signs of a poor education. All in such a short post too! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 07:09 AM

Oh dear.

Russia used hundreds of fake accounts to tweet about Brexit, data shows

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 08:00 AM

Taking about Russia - 1200!

The engine size of my first Lada

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 08:31 AM

Stu, that link is absolutely laughable, there is no ties to the Russian Government or President Putins Chef!! :0)

This stuff is beyond belief, why would anyone in Russian Officialdom want to link the atrocity to Islamic Terrorism? Isis took responsibility and it was perpetrated by Jihadists.

The Russians want trade and d?tente, not another Cold War as promoted by the EU and Establishment America.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 08:40 AM

Not just the democratic process the Russians are interfering with:

Russian hackers targeted UK media and telecoms firms, confirms spy chief

There's a pattern emerging for those with the wits to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 10:34 AM

Anyway.

One percent of the world's population own half of the world's total wealth. Seventy percent of the world's working-age population own under three percent of the world's total wealth. Four in ten of the world's millionaires (measured by dollars) live in the US. One in twenty of the world's population live in the US. [Source: Credit Suisse]

Back in brexit blighted - oops, sorry, brexit Blighty - food price inflation last month reached 4.2% compared with 0.6% this time last year. We all know who food price inflation hits the hardest, don't we. Fish up 8.5%. Vegetables up 5.7%. Butter and oils up 5.6%. Dairy including eggs up 4.8%. [Source: ONS].

Still, at least we're all in it together, sort of. Well, except that we're not...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 11:05 AM

Stu, that link is absolutely laughable

Got any actual facts to back up your claim, Ake?

Oh, sorry, in Ake-istan, facts are irrelevent.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 12:09 PM

Steve,
Back in brexit blighted - oops, sorry, brexit Blighty - food price inflation last month reached 4.2% compared with 0.6% this time last year.

Overall inflation has peaked and is now expected to decline.
Food inflation is caused by our having to import expensive food from EU, or from elsewhere with tariffs adding to the cost.
All that will change with brexit.
You single out fish, which will be much cheaper when we stop EU boats plundering our fish stocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 01:52 PM

For the benefit of akenaton, another Beeb-basher who never checks his facts, I repeat part of a post of mine in this thread from 20 October.


"Ah yes, Nigel. As soon as the going gets tough, have a bash at the good old Beeb. I'm sure that Barnier and Juncker hang on Laura K's every word. Perhaps you would like her replaced by a Tory sycophant. Pity you can't have Jezza Paxo back. All those years at the helm, then we find out that he was a Tory all along. Tsk. Or you could try Andrew Neil, who worked for the Conservatives in his youth and was once the chairman of the Federation of Conservative students, not to speak of his dalliances with those raving Marxists, Murdoch and the Barclay brothers - or how about Nick Robinson, once chairman of the Young Conservatives, or even his former editor Robbie Gibb who used to work for Francis Maude as his chief of staff. Or how about that nice Tory Chris Patten, former chairman of the BBC trust. Or the charming Kamal Ahmed, filched from his post as executive business editor of those rabid leftie papers the Daily and Sunday Telegraph. Flippin' reds under the beds everywhere at the Beeb, eh!"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 04:14 PM

So only 12 votes in it for clause 58? As no one has, as far as I know, predicted any amendment being voted for until much later in the process, the government must find this worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 03:40 AM

Meanwhile, back on the subject...

Oh dear oh dear...

Intelligence watchdog urged to look at Russian influence on Brexit vote


Also see the following, which confirms what anyone paying attention already knew: Christopher Steele believes his dossier on Trump-Russia is 70-90% accurate

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 03:59 AM

The problem of interference in an election is a tricky one. Even if you can provide evidence it occurred you then have to decide what influence it had and what to do about it. Do you declare the election of Trump and the result of Brexit null and void and have a re-run? The American constitution is very well set about for most eventualities like assassinations and removal of Presidents for reasons of illness or illegality, but they are all predicated on the assumption there is a next-in-line to take the Present's place. They did not envision any situation where the entire line might be invalid. So who is in charge and what authority do the have while a rerun takes place?

Similarly with Brexit. Do you have another vote? If you say (as we should have done in the first place) that it is the job of Parliament to decide, won't they be heavily influenced by the now-void result?

Difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 04:18 AM

William Hague's Telegraph article, quoted in today's guardian.

"However, Weber?s optimistic comments about the Brexit financial settlement chimed with recent arguments by senior Tories such as William Hague, who wrote in the Daily Telegraph on Monday that ?if we want Brexit to be a success, we must pay them?.

?The Brexit talks are now quite clearly coming to such a crunch, where the UK has to decide whether a major and unpalatable concession is worth making in order to secure a large number of highly desirable objectives,? wrote Hague. ?Anyone who thinks there has ever been a chance of a free trade deal with the EU without doing this has been kidding themselves.?

=========

Anyone here prepared to admit they have been kidding themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 04:36 AM

From: Stu - PM
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 03:40 AM
Meanwhile, back on the subject...
Oh dear oh dear...
Intelligence watchdog urged to look at Russian influence on Brexit vote
Also see the following, which confirms what anyone paying attention already knew: Christopher Steele believes his dossier on Trump-Russia is 70-90% accurate

So, Christopher Steele 'believes' that his dossier is 70-90% accurate.
That means that he accepts that it is 10-30% inaccurate. And with nothing to tell us which 10-30% that makes the whole dossier unreliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 05:15 AM

Hmmm. I admit I don't like trying to say anything like 70-90% accurate on a document either, possibly related to the first report I published where the word 'now' got mistyped as 'not' and so inverted the conclusions of the report.

But we are not talking a scientific report here: it is from a world where uncertainty and doubt is the norm. There are accurate   quotations from.people who were mistaken themselves; there are misunderstandings of occasions when the person speaking was entirely correct. There are deliberate attempts to mislead the spy.

It is not a world I have been involved in but I would not suprised if 90% accurate is actually thought to be the highest possible standard.

And if so, that is the standard the governments and others work to.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM

Of course no other government would dream of interfering in elections, would they? The US and allies take more direct action.
What happened to the democratic government of Iran?(toppled by the US to bring in the Shah)
What happened in Syria? (illegal invasion by US and allies)
What happened to Gaddaafi(murdered for trying to introduce a pan african currency)
The list goes on...........
If you wish to believe everything fed you by the daily sheople that is your affair. The real world operates in a far less sanitised reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 05:39 AM

"And with nothing to tell us which 10-30% that makes the whole dossier unreliable."

Hard to get your head around, isn't it? Go away and have a think and the answer might come to you at some point. Here's clue: think about facts, about science and how that is presented.

DmG: It is difficult, but knowing that interference has occurred is important in and of itself. I suppose it's impossible to quantify the effect but to know it's there and tangible means we can (hopefully) counter it somehow but re-running the election or referendum is pointless.

I don;'t really care about the politics any more, what I find interesting is the relationships that are being unearthed between the Leave campaign and the Trump camp and the fact it's beginning to look like a concerted and targeted effort to lessen the influence of the US in the wider world (by electing a total fuckwit as President) and getting the UK out of Europe and into a position where it has little political influence on how the continent and beyond.

What Russia couldn't achieve by force of arms it is achieving by staying a step ahead wth regards to cyber warfare and the exploitation of social media as a way of influencing public opinion. They're good at it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 05:53 AM

I agree, Stu. It is far better to know, even if we don't then know how to use the information, than to stay in ignorance. At the very least, it can put us on guard for the next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 06:29 AM

<>From: Stu - PM
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 05:39 AM
"And with nothing to tell us which 10-30% that makes the whole dossier unreliable."
Hard to get your head around, isn't it? Go away and have a think and the answer might come to you at some point. Here's clue: think about facts, about science and how that is presented.

Nothing to go away and think about.
There is a dossier, the author of which says that it is only 70-90% accurate. If he doesn't say which 10-30% he believes is inaccurate, then any information he's given in that dossier is called into question.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 07:05 AM


Nothing to go away and think about.


Oh, there's ALWAYS something to think about.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 09:44 AM

"If he doesn't say which 10-30% he believes is inaccurate"

Ugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 10:30 AM

LONDON ? More than 150,000 Russian-language Twitter accounts posted tens of thousands of messages in English urging Britain to leave the European Union in the days before last year?s referendum on the issue, a team of researchers disclosed on Wednesday.

More than 400 of the accounts that Twitter has already identified to congressional investigators as tools of the Kremlin, other researchers said, also posted divisive messages about Britain?s decision on withdrawing from the bloc, or Brexit, both before and after the vote.

Most of the messages sought to inflame fears about Muslims and immigrants to help drive the vote, suggesting parallels to the strategy that Russian propagandists employed in the United States in the 2016 election to try to intensify the polarization of the electorate.

The separate findings amount to the strongest evidence yet of a Russian attempt to use social media to manipulate British politics in the same way the Kremlin has done in the United States, France and elsewhere.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/world/europe/russia-brexit-twitter-facebook.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 10:57 AM

More common sense from James O'Brien on LBC. Of course, our BrexShit-Supporter-Muppets here won't get it, because it's.....errrrmmm....common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 11:56 AM

Even if the Russians did try to influence the outcome(which I doubt) then do you seriously think others(namely ourselves) do not have a similar dirty tricks department? The western powers also have an unenviable track record of interfering more directly in other countries:
Mohammad Mosaddegh Iran for nationalising the oil reserves (BP)
Saddam Hussein Iraq mythical weapons of mass destruction.
Muammar Gaddafi Libya for trying to iintroduce a gold backed pan african currency
Bashar Hafez al-Assad Syria attempted replacement by illegal war for refusing quatari pipeline
Afghanistan
etc
etc

People in glass houses...........!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 11:58 AM

Is having the Russians try to encourage us to leave any worse than the President of the USA trying to persuade us to stay?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 12:19 PM

Strange I did not think the earlier post of mine went anywhere. I had repeated 504 gateway errors and Mudcat was unavailable at that point. Apologies for virtually identical double post.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 01:33 PM

People in glass houses...........!

Gotcha Iains: Mommy! Mommmeeee!!! Johnny did it FIRST!

Is having the Russians try to encourage us to leave any worse than the President of the USA trying to persuade us to stay?

If you seriously don't know the answer to that question, you, sir, are an...... well, never mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 04:49 PM

I agree with Nigel, President Obama came over here not only trying to persuade us to vote remain, but actually threatening us that if we dared to vote leave we would "go straight to the back of the queue" regarding trade with the US.......Now there's a real friend.

I'll take my chances with the Russians any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 01:31 AM

There seems to be a bit of a flavour that Ake and Nigel are unconcerned if Russia is manipulating the elections. Have I misread that?


I would draw several distinctions between what Obama definitely did and what the Russians are accused of. But the biggest is that Obama expressed a view once (and when he was subsequently asked he confirmed that was his view). So it was in essence one off. That to me is different from a sustained campaign lasting months with actions daily or more frequently, which is what Russia is accused of.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 03:27 AM

There seems to be a bit of a flavour that Ake and Nigel are unconcerned if Russia is manipulating the elections. Have I misread that?

I'm not unconcerned. I'm just pointing out that those making a thing of it now seemed unconcerned by Obama's attempt at influence at the time.

Just looking for a degree of balance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 05:24 AM

Obama's 'attempt at influence' was open and was one man stating his views. Russia's manipulations are a concerted and covert operation to destabilise the politics of the west. No degree of balance at all. They are chalk and cheese.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 06:08 AM

Oh dear.

David Davis blames Germany and France for Brexit talks deadlock

Davis is like one of those kids at school who acted tough but burst into tears when some poor kid he picked on snapped and twatted him, then started bawling at the teacher "it was him!!" to try to get his own back, even though everyone saw him start it.

I suppose as brexit was built on exploiting the sense of victimhood of old white people, it comes as little surprise that the old white people doing the 'negotiating' cry like babies when they don't get their way and try to foist the responsibility onto someone else.

Brexiteers do this as an excuse for all the failings of their myopic ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 06:15 AM

Hey Stu! Don't tar all old white people with the same brush :-( Some of us have fought all our lives for a fairer society and hate the current crop of shyster politicians and devious press barons as much as you do. I would rather be associated with Ghengis Khan!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 07:11 AM

Of course it was a sweeping generalisation, and I do know plenty of folk that were remainers. However, it's also inescapable that the older generation that has trashed the futures of the young; if they hadn't been so bloody selfish and unquestioning they might have made a more informed decision. It's ever been thus I suppose.

Meanwhile, the Brexiteers have put not only the Good Friday Agreement but peace in Ireland at risk with their astounding lack of concern for the border in Ireland. It's difficult to see how anyone would be willing to sacrifice the progress made over the last twenty years for an ideal that sees division and exclusion as a good thing. The Brexiteer attitude to Ireland betrays the dishonesty and arrogance that is the heart of Brexit; millions of little Cromwells happy to risk the suffering of others for a pack of lies. They will have blood on their hands if this goes tits up.

Good on the Irish PM for standing his ground: Irish PM: I will block Brexit talks unless hard border is off the table

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 07:27 AM

?their astounding lack of concern for the border in Ireland

While I agree, and while I was appalled by the way Leadsom and others waved it away as a non-issue because we had had a semi-formal trade between Eire and Northern Ireland before joining the EU, I have to say those arguing to Remain didnt make as much of the problens either. It didnt take much thought to see how difficult this would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 08:02 AM

It's ever been thus I suppose

Agreed, Stu, and as one of the 'angry young men' of the 60s I am saddened to see it happening over and over again. We are now 2 generations past that and each new generation seems to forget the ideals of their youth. We can but hope that the percentage of those that stick to their principles increases until we get the better society that we all hope for.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 01:21 PM

Tell you what. The jaws of many of even the most enthusiastic brexiteers must be dropping in droves tonight, having witnessed the horror show of David Davis's interview with Laura K in the evening news. Unbebuggeringlievable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 02:36 PM

Have a Google over what's happening with drug regulation. Be sure you are not sitting near breakable objects. They truly have no idea of the complexity regulating the pharma industry, and if we crash out in 2019, they don't have time to set up an alternative anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 02:58 PM

I see the pound has fallen yet again, must be all those wonderful GDP figures messing things up

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 02:59 PM

You would be more usefully employed googling banking regulation within the EU and how your ring fenced deposits are being gently unfenced ready for another cypriot haircut.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:18 AM

Why, Iain's? No Leaver I knew thought the EU was perfect. It is why Corbyn famously said 7 out of 10 and upset those who felt only 100% support could be given. I, and others I know, found the way Greece was treated such that it was the nearest we came to voting Leave.

But again, your focus is on economics. You really do need to give some more thoight to the politics of the norder with Ireland. It is not going too far, I think, to say it is the real crunch question, not the "exit bill".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 04:29 AM

Only money matters to some. McG. Fortunately there seems to be a rise in the number of responsible capitalists and they are giving the old order a run for their money by doing things like paying decent wages and caring for the environment.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 06:57 AM

"You would be more usefully employed googling banking regulation"

Sigh. They really don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 08:25 AM

Mealy-mouthed avoidance and head-in-the-sand attitudes from the Brexiteers make it difficult to find any common ground with them; they just want to gloat over the referendum result.

On top of this, they seem determined to crash out without a deal; the idea that we should enshrine the leave date in law is evidence of the lack of understanding about how business works and what the word 'negotiation' actually means.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 02:27 PM

There was an interesting letter in the Telegraph today. The basic premise was:

If a country which was a net recipient of EU funds (say 5 billion per annum) decided to leave the EU. Would the EU insist on paying them that 5 billion each year for a few years after they left?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:33 PM

Take that exact argument with you as a shop owner with a customer who owes you hundreds and a charity you give things to.

Then tell me you don't pursue the debt.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:51 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:33 PM

Take that exact argument with you as a shop owner with a customer who owes you hundreds and a charity you give things to.

Then tell me you don't pursue the debt.

Sorry. I can't see the reasoning (in that argument), if any.
The EU have not been able to show that we owe them anything.
Not surprising, as they are unable to provide any audited accounts over numerous years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:58 PM

It was a very silly letter, Nigel. But thanks for the comedic intervention. Much appreciated!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 04:27 PM

Just wait a fortnight, Nigel. Then we can get back to whether my analogy has any relevance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 03:21 AM

"Sigh. They really don't get it."

We are getting far more comedy off remoaners!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 04:32 AM

Good one. You're a funny man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 04:57 AM

Just saying how we find each other comical is not advancing the arguments much.

Andrew Marr was questioning John McDonnell on NI border, so it seems to be seeping in this might be an issue.

The BBC reported:

====
Mr Coveney (Eire Foreign Minister) added: "We simply don't see how we can avoid border infrastructure.

"Once standards change it creates differences between the two jurisdictions and a different rule book.

"When you have a different rule book you are starting to go down the route of having to have checks."

====

Since the UK assurance they don't want a hard border is clearly not enough to satisfy Eire, what else do Iains, Stanron, Nigel and others think we need to do to assess the border issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:34 AM

Border infrastructure (what a great way of putting it!) is unavoidable unless Ireland is allowed by the EU to be a special case and to break EU rules. We can make whatever border arrangements we like with other freestanding countries, but Ireland is in the EU and, quite rightly, can't override rules that apply to all the other member states. There's a mountain to climb in order to avoid most of the aspects of what a hard border would entail. I mean, what about the fact that they will be in a customs union that we no longer subscribe to? Leaving the border open for the free passage of goods, as now, would be seen as an outrage by other member states. Some of us worried about this before the referendum. What a pity the leave side swept it under the carpet. Yet another piece of their dishonesty. It was all going to be so easy, wasn't it? Such a simple decision to make!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:51 AM

Philip Hammond on Marr: "there are no unemployed people".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:55 AM

I think 'border infrastructure' is a good phrase. Those of little wit may assume it just means huts with red and white gates like something from a WWII film. Not, it means any infrastructure that has the effect of creating a border where all movement across it is monitored, whatever the technology.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:12 AM

I suppose a mini-Schengen for movement of people would be achievable, but the movement across the border of goods is a minefield. Every car would have to have its boot checked (trunk, yanks). Either there's full border controls or Ireland has to be allowed to be a special case. Can't see it somehow. The EU is scared of making special cases, which is why David Davis is finding that queen, country, Biggles books and empire are getting him nowhere. He's the last man on earth who we need to be on a learning curve, tragically for this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM

Either there's full border controls or Ireland has to be allowed to be a special case.
Or Northern Ireland has to be a special case. Theoretically more achievable, but perhaps having the DUP propping you up doesn't help.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:43 AM

But making Northern Ireland a special case would automatically mean making the Republic a special case, wouldn't it? It would still mean someone on the EU side sidestepping the border controls with non-EU states that the other 27 (or 26) have to abide by.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:56 AM

Situation with the North of Ireland and the Republic is a special case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 08:01 AM

This is the model people like Kenneth Clarke are referring to where there is in effect a hard border in the sea. But let's not monopolize the conversation, Steve. I am sure many Brexiteer will be along at any moment to give their solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 08:53 AM

Let's call the whole thing off!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 08:54 AM

Don't hold your breath- unless the Daily Heil, The Scum, or The Torygraph have miraculously come up with the answer in this morning's editions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 09:20 AM

Isn't it amazing how the Tories have suddenly turned against the Telegraph. Us lefties have to roll with media punches all the time and always have had to. But when one of their paper poodles nibbles back their backwoodsmen (sorry AGAIN, John!) start sending death threats to each other in droves, etc. So thin-skinned! It wouldn't be half so bad if this ship of fools had a captain. As it is, it doesn't even have a rudder.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 01:40 PM

I realise that there is a lot of 'echo chamber' effect here, as you all congratulate each other on being in agreement.
Several posts each since the last comment by anyone in favour of Brexit.

It almost seems a shame to bring in a level of reasoned argument.

The border as it is at present, is, presumably, the type of border that the Irish (both North & South) would like to see in the future.
Why should this change?

We already have different rates of duty on alcohol, tobacco & fuel between UK, Ireland, and also the various states of the EU. Customs officers are likely to stop drivers arriving from France or the Netherlands, and check whether they are bringing in excess alcohol or tobacco. This doesn't happen at the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. So we already have a 'special' arrangement as far as that border is concerned.
Surely this is an example of what is likely to be the case in future.

That is what Ireland want, and presumably what our negotiating team want as well. The only place a 'spanner in the works' is likely to appear from is the EU team.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 01:56 PM

We threw the spanner in the works by voting to leave. The current border arrangement can't work because it will in future be between an EU and a non-EU country. One in the EU customs union, the other not. It is not about the EU throwing a spanner in the works. It is about the EU doing what it should be doing as a group of 27 nations, making sure that its rules are maintained.

"It almost seems a shame to bring in a level of reasoned argument."

Don't be so bloody rude. There have been plenty of contributions in this thread putting reasoned arguments from remainers. Convince us of your own mighty powers of reasoning, Nigel, starting off by telling us where the ?350 million a week for the NHS is coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 02:45 PM

Britain has made clear that it will not install any hard border infrastructure.
Obviously we can not stop the Irish doing it on their side.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 02:53 PM

What "?350 million a week"?

Or are you referring to the advert on the side of a bus which said:
"We send the EU 350 million a week
let's fund our NHS instead Vote Leave"

I suppose you might take the implication that all 350 million would go to the NHS, but that is not specifically spelt out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 03:57 PM

You should get a job as a stripper - the way you wriggle, you'd be a sensation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:06 PM

You must be the only person in tbe country, Nigel, who didn't see that as an assurance that brexit would mean 350 million quid a week saved that would go into the NHS. Of course, the savvy among us didn't believe a word of it. But the intent of the slogan was clear and it was nakedly populist. Get honest for a change, Nige, not least with yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:23 PM

Just got in and am off straight to bed so will not have a chance to comment fully until later...


But Isnt this is the second time Nigel has called us an echo chamber? ... (smile)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:57 PM

I'll be honest, John. I don't want to see Nigel being a stripper. No, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:31 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:06 PM
You must be the only person in tbe country, Nigel, who didn't see that as an assurance that brexit would mean 350 million quid a week saved that would go into the NHS. Of course, the savvy among us didn't believe a word of it.

So I was the only person who didn't believe that that it meant 350 million per week to the NHS, but you didn't believe it either.
So, by your argument, it wasn't just me.

What, exactly, was your understanding?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:48 PM

So, Nige, you accepted the lie propagated by your side. And didn't say anything. Well, at least I don't recall you saying anything. But why would you care? As long as the plebs swallowed it hook, line and sinker and voted leave. What else mattered, Nige?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 04:06 AM

The Independent are today reporting that the average family is already ?800 a year worse-off because of the Brexit vote.

Well duh! Just like the farmers who voted 'Leave', but still expect their EU subsidies, or the fish-processors who voted 'Leave' but still want their free-market arrangements with the EU, the Brexiteer-Muppets seem not to have seen that coming.#bunchoffeeble-mindedpillocks

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:02 AM

So, Nige, you accepted the lie propagated by your side.
No. I read what it said, and understood what it didn't say.
You, presumably, accepted all the lies spoken by the 'Remain' side, and are totally amazed that we didn't get immediate mass unemployment and a sixty billion pound 'black hole' in the budget, and require an immediate punitive budget immediately after the vote.

The lies told by the Remain campaign have already been proved as such. The claims made by the leave campaign can only be truly judged once we actually leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:03 AM

That question mark was a pound sign - looks like the gremlins are back (any ideas Steve - my Smart-Punctuation on my iPad is turned off?).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:13 AM

Backwoodsman.
Just fill in the box, hit 'preview' and submit, then check what the preview box shows.
Correct any problems with the output (in the original message box) check 'preview' again, if the preview appears correct press submit, otherwise repeat the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:13 AM

Don't crow too soon, Nigs - people are already considerably worse-off and, in case you hadn't realised, we haven't yet dropped over the cliff-edge of the Hard-Brexit that this bunch of Tory morons are dragging us towards.

But no problem - you just keep your fingers in your ears, sing "La la la", and keep telling yourself that the unicorns are on their way. After all, ignorance is bliss.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:23 AM

If I've said it once in this forum I've said it twenty times. The whole referendum campaign was disreputable, dishonest and undemocratic ON BOTH SIDES OF THE DEBATE. Thank you. Now as for the 350 million per week for the NHS, it doesn't matter what clever ol' Nigel "read between the lines" (so he tells us now that the thing has been exposed as a blatant lie - face-saving or what, Nigel??): the CLEAR intention of the simplistic message was to hoodwink the public into thinking that leaving would mean an extra 350 million per week for the NHS. It was not only emblazoned on Boris's bus but was reinforced again and again by Farage and co. and I don't recall too many of your fellow leavers, saying "Hang on a sec, whoa, chaps, let's not over-egg the pudding here..."

It won't let me do pound signs either, John. I'll look into it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM

The pound sign ( £ ) seems to give particular problems as it is not used in many languages.
To get it to show here use '& pound' without the apostrophes and without the space between '&' and 'pound'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:04 AM

NHS funds?



The LSE has a repository of Brexit leaflets. You might like to look at this one to decide how ambiguous it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:06 AM

Sorry setting up the link is tricky on this damn phone. Here it is unlinked
https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/objects/lse:paf829reh

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:29 AM

That leaflet, by the way, is from Gisela Stuart who was co-chair of the Leave campaign so the leaflet presumably does reflect "Vote Leave"'s stance: we are not talking some remote mp who may be off message. Also, of course, these leaflets are designed to be stuck in windows so the reverse side, which has more caveats, would not be visible.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:37 AM

"I suppose you might take the implication that all 350 million would go to the NHS, but that is not specifically spelt out."

This is why the country is divided. Some people are now quite happy to make excuses for outright lies, as if the truth is an irrelevance. I'm sure they'll argue that the advert wasn't on the bust wasn't supposed to be the truth and he, we all knew it wasn't nudge-nudge... but the truth is it was pitched as a fact and people (lots) DID believe it was a fact.

Some folk have low standards, and they're in the ascendance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:45 AM

Another attempt at the leaflet promising the money IS for the NHS on the front page and as a headline for all to see. The reverse pretty much declares the headline to be misleadibg.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:48 AM

I can't see a scintilla of ambiguity in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:49 AM

How do we see the reverse, DMcG?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:57 AM

Scrolling down the image on the website works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:58 AM

We had better be careful though, Steve. Too many posts without an intervening Brexiteer is frowned on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 07:06 AM

The 'intervening BrexShiteers' are too busy gazing out of the window, looking for the first unicorn....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 09:21 AM

Oh dear, Merkel is in a bit of a pickle. Election anyone?
I wonder how this will impact brexit.
The european game of happy families is having a spot more bother.
Thank God we are getting out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 10:24 AM

"The european game of happy families is having a spot more bother."

Er, probably a waste of time this, but you don't seem to understand that the political process continues in the sovereign states of the EU regardless? The Germans get to decide who runs Germany, it's nothing to do with the EU. So it's a German game of happy families.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 10:43 AM

Is that a simple explanation from a simple mind?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 10:56 AM

A bit like the U.K. game of happy families that led us to a minority government, presided over by the Weak and Wobbly Praying Mantis, who had to jump into bed with a bunch of Irish terrorist sympathisers to hold on to power.

Makes Germany's troubles look like a tea-party, dunnit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 11:54 AM

Here you go, BrexShiteers - just one of the many things you voted for. Congratulations, there'll be sod-all left by the time we bang out...

https://www.facebook.com/scientistsforeu/posts/1197639380338069

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 11:59 AM

I did promise I would get back to Nigel's post about the border, but I will keep it brief.

The border as it is at present, is, presumably, the type of border that the Irish (both North & South) would like to see in the future.
Why should this change?

The border question was in the original critical things to resolve, it was listed on Friday by Tusk as one of the key things still needing to be resolved, the Taoiseach and the Irish minister have both said the issue is unresolved and Teresa May, in saying it is 'almost resolved', agrees it still isn't.

We also have an veritable army of civil servants on both sides beavering away at it.

Do you honestly think "we can just do more or less what we do now, can't we?" hasn't be considered and rejected?

Then you say the UK does not want a hard border. The problem there is that it is perfectly possible to want contradictory things at the same time. So when the Irish government asks the UK to formally commit that it will not have a hard border it turns out is unwilling to do so, as detailed in the links others have provided. And to be honest I can see why they would want to retain the *option* of a hard border, even though they don't want a hard border.

Finally, though, here is a clipping from, I think, the Times, though it might have been the Telegraph:

While the British have made all the right noises about maintaining the border in its current state, no details as to how this can be achieved have been forthcoming. Suspicions that the issue was not being taken seriously were underlined on Friday when Boris Johnson, the British foreign secretary, suggested that matters relating to the Irish border could be resolved as part of a wider discussion on EU borders, including that between Dover and Calais. Mr Johnson?s apparent failure to understand the differences between these borders is alarming and capped a bad week for Anglo-Irish relations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 12:08 PM

"Is that a simple explanation from a simple mind?"

You've posted very little lately but you've managed to post two gratuitous insults in the space of a few hours. You may not have noticed it but this place is calming down and it may be a good idea if you managed to work out why that is. There's only you doing this now and it sticks out like a sore thumb. Try to keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 02:03 PM

"Is that a simple explanation from a simple mind?"

Good lad.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:14 PM

and there was me thinking Jim had lost his keyboard.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:18 PM

A bit more dirt on the shady BrexShit Campaign bunch...

https://www.facebook.com/campaigntoremain/posts/523412008025287

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:20 PM

Can anyone see the border issue leading to a united Ireland? The UK have not wanted to have anything to do with the north for a long time. The republic don't want it. NI voted to stay in Europe. This could force the issue.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:27 PM

Fingers crossed, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:28 PM

And...1,300! 👍

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:42 PM

With the DUP supporting the government that is unlikely. However, with the resignation of Gerry Adams, who knows? Maybe Sinn Fein will decide it is time to take their seats in Parliament ...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 04:54 AM

Looks like the hubris is collapsing and that more money's going be put on the table. Conversely, lots of very silly talk about trying to exploit Merkel's weakness. Plenty of water still to go under the bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 09:28 AM

Meanwhile, Britain's influence in the world wanes as Brexit nears: How UK lost International Court of Justice place to India

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 10:18 AM

"and there was me thinking Jim had lost his keyboard."
You wish !!!
I'm sure you know the old Billy Connolly statement - "If you want to confuse a policeman, ask him a question"
The same appears to apply to Brexiters.
"Can anyone see the border issue leading to a united Ireland?"
Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has stated that Ireland will have no part in any negotiations without an agreement on an open border
As far as the North is concerned, the religious gap between the Catholics and Protestants that the leadership has so long depended on is rapidly shrinking and the DUP is so far up to its arse in scandal and contradiction that its position is becoming untenable
The 13% that declared they supported a United Ireland 7 years ago have now swelled enormously and Sinn Fein, once a hardline republican party, is now just one seat short of being Stormont's largest party, with 27 seats to the Democratic Unionist Party's 28 seats.
It seems to me that a UNited Ireland is now on the cards   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 07:32 PM

rom: DMcG - PM
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 11:59 AM

I did promise I would get back to Nigel's post about the border, but I will keep it brief. FAILED

The border as it is at present, is, presumably, the type of border that the Irish (both North & South) would like to see in the future.
Why should this change?


The border question was in the original critical things to resolve, it was listed on Friday by Tusk as one of the key things still needing to be resolved, the Taoiseach and the Irish minister have both said the issue is unresolved and Teresa May, in saying it is 'almost resolved', agrees it still isn't.

We also have an veritable army of civil servants on both sides beavering away at it.

Do you honestly think "we can just do more or less what we do now, can't we?" hasn't be considered and rejected?

Then you say the UK does not want a hard border. The problem there is that it is perfectly possible to want contradictory things at the same time. So when the Irish government asks the UK to formally commit that it will not have a hard border it turns out is unwilling to do so, as detailed in the links others have provided. And to be honest I can see why they would want to retain the *option* of a hard border, even though they don't want a hard border.

Finally, though, here is a clipping from, I think, the Times, though it might have been the Telegraph:

While the British have made all the right noises about maintaining the border in its current state, no details as to how this can be achieved have been forthcoming. Suspicions that the issue was not being taken seriously were underlined on Friday when Boris Johnson, the British foreign secretary, suggested that matters relating to the Irish border could be resolved as part of a wider discussion on EU borders, including that between Dover and Calais. Mr Johnson's apparent failure to understand the differences between these borders is alarming and capped a bad week for Anglo-Irish relations.

You appear (whether through ignorance, or unwillingness to look at the actual details of the negotiations) unable to realise that UK and The Republic of Ireland cannot decide what will happen.
Although both would wish that there will not be a 'hard' border, Ireland are not able to negotiate their own position. They have to wait for the EU to tell them what their position will be.

Fortunately we are getting out of this madness!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 08:54 PM

Have another pint, Nige. Best leave it 'til morning, eh? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 01:36 AM

No more to be said on this one, Nigel. Once again, let us see what happens mid December.

In the meantime, perhaps you want to explain how that poster I linked to earlier is not a promise to put the money into the NHS. The poster, please, not the bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 05:10 AM

Not only that, the figure of £350 million is a downright lie. If an actual figure could be gleaned at all from the plethora of financial wheelings, dealings, subsidies, tariffs and rebates that characterises our relationship with the EU, it's more like £160 million. Google this for a breakdown:

"Boris Johnson’s £350m claim is devious and bogus. Here’s why"
(John Lichfield, Guardian, 18 Sept).

As he points out, the "true" figure would be far more likely to be seen as an acceptable cost by people weighing up the pros and cons of our membership. The article also puts into perspective what the numbers relating to our contribution and what the EU spends actually mean percentage-wise when set beside our GDP. They are surprisingly small.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 05:27 AM

The point was made during the referendum campaign.
It was challenged at the time by the Remain side, and defended by the Leave side.
All in open public debate.

The public made their choice based on all the arguments presented including this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM

You are confusing the two terms "argument" and "downright lie."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 06:13 AM

Brilliant article here from an outsider's point of view. 48% of us largely agree with this assessment, although under Corbyn it can't any worse.

No One Knows What Britain Is Anymore

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 11:06 AM

Oh dear, even the chancellor has cut the projected figures for growth in Britain.

If we were next to the bottom of the pile before .............

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 11:13 AM

The Chancellor for Remain lied that a Leave vote would require an immediate emergency budget to prevent the economy crashing.

Fair play. It was all put to the people and they decided who made the best case and who they believed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 11:23 AM

who made the best case and who they believed.

Rather like the Mark Lees of the world. See tRUMP thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 11:46 AM

Fair play my arse. We have the right to expect integrity from the people we elect to run the country. You are giving them licence to lie in their teeth to us.

And I'll console myself that the "Chancellor for Remain" was just as big a scumbag Tory as the current foreign secretary.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 12:31 PM

More from the US press, this time The New Yorker. The rest of the world is wondering what has happened in this country, as the lunacy of Brexit crashes on and Britain becomes more isolated: No End in Sight to the Brexit Madness

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 12:46 PM

Fair play. It was all put to the people and they decided who made the best case and who they believed

The reason I drew attention to the leaflet that said "Let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week" is because it is about those who voted Brexit act now. We hear many people say what was printed on the bus was true and just misinterpreted: that it did not claim the Leave people said "Let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week".

But this poster says exactly that. The actual figure has been discussed many times so leave that to one side. As I read it, this claims that a significant number of billions going to the EU is promised for the NHS.

Do those who voted Leave say it still doesn't make the claim? Or do they say it was a lie, but it's all in the past so we needn't worry about it? Or do some think some people were fooled but nevertheless even with that they think the decision to leave was still the best thing? Or have they another way of looking at it? No one need answer, unless they wish to. But it is worth reflecting on.


And that matters, because it should influence how people think about the current promises.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 01:19 PM

"The Chancellor for Remain lied that a Leave vote would require an immediate emergency budget to prevent the economy crashing."
Thast's not "lying" Keith - thay's making a prediction
The Brexit crowd promised a better Britain - it immediatly got a massive rise in racist attacks
The fiascos since have indicated that that "better Britain" is getting further and further away every day (ten years was the last prediction for a steadying economy)
Some of us will never live long enough to see the "better Britain" that was promised - neither will or kids at this rate
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 03:58 PM

More from the US press, this time The New Yorker. The rest of the world is wondering what has happened in this country, as the lunacy of Brexit crashes on and Britain becomes more isolated: No End in Sight to the Brexit Madness

You can take some small solace in that the rest of the world is wondering what has happened in the U.S., as the lunacy of Trump crashes on. No end in sight for Trump, Trumpists and Trumpism either.

As bad as the Brexit mess is, it pales in comparison the ongoing disaster here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 08:35 PM

So what have we learned today, Tory brexiteers? Why, that growth is stuffed for five years.That productivity is stuffed for five years. That government borrowing will increase our debt for the foreseeable future. That we're in austerity until 2025 and beyond. Groovy! King, country and my pot plants forever!   Wheeee!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:59 AM

And, in the meantime, the mega-rich carry on offshoring, corporation tax rates continue to be reduced, the NHS continues to be under-funded in order to justify Privatisation-by-Stealth. Same Old Tory Same Old - screw the (comparatively) poor to make the already-rich increasingly richer.

Did anyone else notice Hammond once again drop in the barefaced Tory lie that won them the 2010 and 2015 GEs - the inference that the 2008 world-wide financial crash, and the ensuing 'Great Recession' were 'caused' by the Labour government?

I despair that ordinary, decent, working-class people are so feeble-minded that they're bamboozled by their propaganda into voting Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 05:47 AM

And before anyone else comes here to tell us what a hash Corbyn would make of running the country, lessee... A promise to get rid of the deficit by 2015. Not a chance of getting rid of it while any of us here live and breathe. An end to austerity. You bet. Our cherished health service, in pretty good nick when the Tories inherited it, going straight down the pan. School budgets slashed to the bone resulting in parents being begged to buy pencils and paper. A referendum that simply couldn't be lost that was duly lost. The looming catastrophe of a brexit being steered (wrong word, I know) by the biggest bunch of incompetents that have ever "run" the country. An election called in the interests of the riven Tory party, not the country, that ended with an enforced coalition with a partner that would make the Dark Ages look like the Golden Years. If Jezza sat on a high rock shouting, "Here you are, China, take all our money!" it probably wouldn't be any worse than what's happening now.

Kick out the Tories!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 06:23 AM

Jim,
"The Chancellor for Remain lied that a Leave vote would require an immediate emergency budget to prevent the economy crashing."
Thast's not "lying" Keith - thay's making a prediction

He said he would call a budget, but then he did not do it.
He was in a position to know, not just predict.

DMcG
Do those who voted Leave say it still doesn't make the claim? Or do they say it was a lie, but it's all in the past so we needn't worry about it?

I say it was a controversial claim that was openly challenged and debated at the time. Leave said it was false and Remain attempted to justify it, as with many other issues on both sides.
The people then decided who had made the best case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 07:41 AM

Thanks, Keith, but that is a different point. Do you claim today that leaflet - and again I refer to the leaflet not the bus - makes no promise about payment? Nigel, for example, was clear earlier in the thread that he believes the bus did not make such a promise. I do not know if he claims today this leaflet did not make a promise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 08:12 AM

"He was in a position to know, not just predict."
The shambolic situation following Brexit has guaranteed nobody was or is in a position to guarantee anything
Today's report on Britain's performance has outlined that fact - cnfusion, incompetence and lack of direction
On top of that it has been announced that British wokrrs wage progress has ben set back by twenty years
Utter chaos
Lies - what ****** lies and who tells the most?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 08:19 AM

WAGE SETBACK
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 08:36 AM

"The shambolic situation following Brexit has guaranteed nobody was or is in a position to guarantee anything
Today's report on Britain's performance has outlined that fact - cnfusion, incompetence and lack of direction
On top of that it has been announced that British wokrrs wage progress has ben set back by twenty years
Utter chaos"

and you seriously think comrade corbyn would do better?

We will end Theresa May’s reckless approach to Brexit, and seek to unite the country around a Brexit deal that works for every community in Britain.

    “Labour will always put jobs and the economy first”

We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first???????????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 08:45 AM

Emojees are best avoided at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 09:26 AM

Here is the error in your argument Iains.

You are saying that Corbyn would be worse. That may turn out to be the case but, as yet, we have no idea if that is true.

What we do know for certain is that the shower of shits that currently pass for what we call a government could not organise a piss up in a brewery.

You are trying to compare what may be with what is and your right wing bias is making you draw conclusions that are not possible.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 09:36 AM

Says it all......

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 09:50 AM

But corbyn has momentum onside and still suffers from inertia. What hope have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:05 AM

There is no escaping the fact that you are just speculating Iains. It seems to be a trait of you and your right wing chums. When faced with the fact that the present administration is shite your only response is a prediction based on your political bias.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:13 AM

Did anyone else notice that, in responding to the Chancellor's speech, Jeremy Corbyn started to sound like a Dalek? It stirred up strange images.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:15 AM

Iain has a point. Corbyn is as committed to Brexit as the tories and will face the same hurdles, especially as the more extreme right of the tory party and the non-dom right-wing media moguls are in danger of convincing the 52% a hard brexit would be a good idea, despite the fact they won't have to suffer the consequences.

I'm not convinced that Labour are a credible alternative, they cannot even gain a decent lead in the polls with the shower in charge feuding amongst themselves and making the UK a laughing stock.

There is not alternative to the tories, and that means we're fucked.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:19 AM

Again, Stu, speculation. All we have to go off are the promises of politicians. And we all know how much those are worth :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:20 AM

Speculation is the province of the BrexShitters, DtG - they voted Leave on the basis of absolutely nothing more solid than speculation, the Leave campaign could give them nothing better. What a bunch of feeble-minded, deluded Bell-Ends. At least we 'stoopid Remoaners' voted on the basis of solid facts, evidenced and experienced every minute of our lives since 1973. The BrexShit vote was based on wish-washy guesswork and unrealistic expectations.

Anyway, I'm going back to my window now, to look out for the arrival of those unicorns the BrexShitters are expecting to be here soon....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:54 AM

You are a strange bunch on here. Leftwing speculation is regarded as absolute truth and rightwing speculation as fantasy designed to brainwash the electorate. Both parties inhabit fantasy land and everything you read about the implications of brexit is based on even more dodgy dossiers than the ones concerning weapons of mass destruction. Also you very conveniently manage to overlook the fact that labour is also committed to brexit.

Let me repeat this for the diehards: LABOUR IS ALSO COMMITTED TO BREXIT.
That does make many of the posters on this thread total dummies. They fail to accommodate this rather basic factor in their postings and cannot see how this influences where we are today.
Corbyn is busy trying to sabotage his own manifest. Got to admit it is a novel way of trying to win an election.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:54 AM

Unfortunately, Corbyn is not in a position in which he can say let's abandon brexit. Anyone with a brain now realises what a bloody awful idea it is, even though lots of people won't admit it (including a few on here), but brexit demurrals would have accusations raining down about going against the will of the people, undemocratic behaviour, etc., that would see him unceremoniously dumped in any election. Realpolitik dictates that he carries on letting the Tories immolate. Note that he's muted his calls for the Tories to stand aside and let Labour do the deal. That's the last thing he needs. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost working together couldn't make a silk purse out of this pig's unwashed, chocolate-covered arse of a brexit plan. If she called an election tomorrow his platform would have to be firmly pro-brexit. It's a bloody terrible position for this country to be in. However, who knows how things may change in the coming few months. The whole idea may come to look so unattractive that all the parties might agree to dump it. I live in probably forlorn hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:56 AM

Well we crossed with each other there, Iains. Just for once you have a good point! Just the one, mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 11:01 AM

There is no speculation involved in commenting on what is actually happening. There is in predicting the future. That is the only point I am making. As I said at the outset you could well be right in saying Corbyn could do no better but that is speculation, not fact.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 11:14 AM

I have a feeling that he knows that no-one involved in the negotiations has a cat in hell's chance of coming out looking good and that he knows he's politically better off just letting the Tories screw it up, which they will. It's way too late now but we needed a credible opposition to brexit. there was simply no-one on the high ground telling us the truth bar the limp-mode LibDems, and the pro-brexit lies had one hundred percent of the populist appeal. By proceeding in the Labour Party's best interest, he's not acting in the country's best interests. But if he tried to be honest and speak out in the country's interests he'd be demolished. What a cock-up. Positively Kafkaesque.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 11:52 AM

"you could well be right in saying Corbyn could do no better but that is speculation, not fact." Studying his previous form, I would say it ranks somewhat above speculation. His responses to the budget were effete and verging on inarticulate. How will he hold up to a real crisis ?- He must be the only geriatric snowflake in Christendom.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 12:11 PM

"It's a bloody terrible position for this country to be in."

It didn't have to be this way. Labour were too scared to come out as the party of remain because their core support had flocked to UKIP and they had to be seen to support them despite them knowing full well Brexit will hit those voters hardest.

It was a mistake and showed a weakness in the philosophy of Labour; we expect the tories and scumbag kippers to be reactionary and reductionist, but hoped for more from Labour. We've been let down and now have nowhere to turn to and are unrepresented. Shitebags, the lot of 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 12:53 PM

Predictions and speculations are indeed invidious, but the world has been full of weird surprises recently. I think we could still emerge from this with no brexit. Yours in hope, well-educated, harmonica-totin', hanging-in-there Labour Party member, remoaner-in-chief, retired science teacher. In any order you like. Pass the corkscrew.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:16 PM

The Tories are coming under the cosh on this thread for a perfectly good reason - that BrexShit is wholly-owned by them.

They started it with a horse's-arse of a referendum called for no other reason than the appeasement of their own xenophobic, racist Right-Wing extremists element. Then having lost the 'unlosable' referendum, and despite calls for the BrexShit process to be made a cross-party affair, they took it upon themselves to exclude all other parties, indeed they tried to deny the sovereignty of Parliament itself.

Who else should be taking the punches? By their own hand they've put themselves into this situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:20 PM

Sorry, Backwoodsman, but don't you know it is all the EU's fault? We are told that often enough, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:40 PM

LOL! Of course, I forgot all about that! ROTFLMAO!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:43 PM

Do you claim today that leaflet - and again I refer to the leaflet not the bus - makes no promise about payment?

It does appear to. I have never seen that image before and can not remember such a claim ever being discussed at the time or since.
Only the bus.
It can have had little influence on the outcome if no-one saw it.

The Chancellor definitely promised an emergency budget though.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:49 PM

We've been let down and now have nowhere to turn to and are unrepresented.

Pass the tissues, Please!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 02:05 PM

Another belter! You're a shaft of wit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 02:15 PM

Don't you mean theres a waft of sh...............


I'll get me coat

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 02:16 PM

Do you claim today that leaflet - and again I refer to the leaflet not the bus - makes no promise about payment?

It does appear to

Thank you, Keith. A little cautious, but I think I can interpret that as a 'yes'.

I'll drop this now, but the reason I have pushed it a bit it that some remainer's are fairly willing to accept both sides lied. Indeed, Steve insists we all remember how often he has said it.

Leavers are of course quite insistent the remainers lied.

But it is difficult for Leavers to admit to any occasion the Leave campaign lied. (Or at least, that is my experience. If any leaver wants to give examples where they think the Leave campaign lied, feel free.)

Now this leaflet is, as I said, from Gisela Stuart, who served as Chair and leader of the Vote Leave Campaign Committee as Co-Convenor with Conservative MP Michael Gove. So there is every reason to believe it was agreed by the top levels of the campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 02:27 PM

Glad you got it Rag...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 05:37 PM

Studying his previous form, I would say it ranks somewhat above speculation.

Many a slip and all that. You can play the odds as much as you like. It still does not make it a fact no matter how you spin it.

His responses to the budget were effete and verging on inarticulate.

Which response was that? The real one or the one on Newsnight?

The media are still trying to crucify him and people are still falling for it. As has been ably demonstrated above.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 05:42 PM

And they never learn, Dave. Trying to crucify him during the last election campaign had the opposite effect to what they intended. Repeating a failed strategy could be the first sign of insanity...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 05:06 AM

He ain't PM yet and I would be amazed if he ever was. And why do you support a man who is also signed up for brexit. Is it me losing my marbles, or you jokers?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 05:28 AM

No, he isn't PM and is in no position to do anything about the debacle that Dave the pig sticker and his shower of shits put us in. You seem to keep forgetting that speculation about what he will or will not do if and when he is in such a position is just guesswork.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 06:12 AM

If you sign up for a political party you don't have to agree with every single policy. That's why both major parties are split about all sorts of things in all kinds of ways. Both would claim to be broad churches. A key word is "political." The main aim of a political party is to get power. To do that they have to play politics. I don't know any Labour Party members that are pro-brexit. I have a sneaky feeling that, deep down, Corbyn, McDonnell and co. are virulently anti-brexit now that they've seen how things are panning out. But they can't come out and say so for political reasons, that is, it would make them immediate electoral toast, and that's what you don't make yourself if you're remotely interested in getting into power rather than spending your life as a protest group. You don't get power in this country unless you are devious and economical with the truth and generous with half-truths. With many people that translates as "these scumbags are all the same" and they turn away from politics and don't vote. But someone has to run the country and its in everybody's interest to try to follow what's going on so that the politicos stay accountable. Farage, Gove and Johnson (as well as Keith's Chancellor Of Remain), had they been fully held to account by a knowledgeable electorate, would all be sweeping the streets by now. But they've all got away with what was a shameful and disreputable few months in this country's politics.

One thing's for sure. If and when Corbyn becomes PM he won't be a one-man band. The personal attacks on him in the last election backfired very badly because people know that, and, what's more, he played politics a damn sight better than the Tories did. And, unlike Theresa May, he's untested. There's a lot of that around these days. In times of desperately awful politics it's what people turn to. Be very afraid, Tories, though probably not quite yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 07:09 AM

"The public made their choice based on all the arguments presented including this one."

Times change, opinions change. The utopia of the sunlit uplands of merry England are not the same as they are approached and the closer we get, the more we see those ivory towers are made of paper that collapse when the rain comes down, and the deep red of the sunset was the glow from a furnace to which we will all have to stoke with the stagnation of our wages and the ever spiralling inequality. Those that led us there will not suffer, they are the same establishment and corporate interests that led to believe the lie of trickle down wealth and home ownership.

We are a ship of fools, and have become irrelevant to the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 07:13 AM

If we are a ship of fools the outcome will hardly matter to us all.
(and you may count me out of such ship thank you)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 08:43 AM

I think this is a good summary of the Irish Border issue

It is from the Guardian, so will automatically be dismissed by some.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 08:58 AM

For those that do Facebook Mrs 'ardin's kid writes a good piece.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM

Both of those articles are true and astute summaries of the tragedy we find ourselves in. Unfortunately, they are unlikely to persuade the Union-Jack-Underpants Brigade who keep telling us to "Get behind are (sic) country" or tell us, as I've been told several times, we should be "arrested, marched out, and shot" for continuing to oppose BrexShit. They don't have the capacity to think that much.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:40 AM

"Corbyn is as committed to Brexit as the tories"
Any party purporting to be democratic is rightfully bound by a decision taken by referendum
The difference between Corbyn's and the Brexiteers is that (hopefully) under his leadership, Labour will attempt to make the best job out of a bad decision on behalf of all the British people while the rest will plough on regardless and blame the stupid British when it all falls apart, as it is showing every sign of doing.
The idea that the Little Englanders who led this campaign, largely on a xenophobic ticket, will take responsibility for their actions beggars belief
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:46 AM

I don't share Baccy's contempt for the people who voted to leave - unless you are involved or are actually interested in these subjects, you act on the information you are fed
That accounts for the vast majority of the people of these islands and, given the predatory nature of our politicians, who is to blame them?
The Brexit campaign was a classic example of the age-old tactic of 'divide and rule
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:47 AM

"If we are a ship of fools the outcome will hardly matter to us all.
(and you may count me out of such ship thank you)"

Don't tempt me...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:54 AM

"Any party purporting to be democratic is rightfully bound by a decision taken by referendum"

It's not undemocratic to change your mind when you come into possession of new information.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 10:00 AM

Simon Jenkins can be a bit of a loose cannon, but the "read more" link within DMcG's link is a good read (it was in G2 yesterday). It's about a village which the border runs through the middle of. It describes the horrors of life in the village before the Good Friday Agreement and the very real fears of the residents should the bridge in the village become part of a hard border, in terms of both an end to free trade and the prospect of the return of the Troubles. The piece also points out that there are over two hundred crossing points between the North and the Republic. I suppose yer brexiteers might see that as a useful potential bit of job creation...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 10:04 AM

Jim, my contempt is for:-

1) the idea those people hold that, having won the referendum, they are entitled to deny others the right to continue to oppose. Even worse, their calls for us to accept 'democracy', whilst apparently completely failing to understand that the right to oppose is at the very foundation of the 'democracy' they claim to wish to uphold! You really couldn't make it up!

2) the suggestion they frequently make, that those of us who continue to oppose BrexShit are 'unpatriotic', or 'traitors' - they clearly have zero understanding of what 'patriotism' means, or what is involved in being a 'traitor'.

3) calls for those opposing BrexShit to suffer the death sentence. That little gem tells me all I need to know about those fucktards.

And I'm in complete agreement with you on the 'divide and Rule' issue. Not just the BrexShit issue though - 'twas ever thus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 10:58 AM

I agree with Stu there, Jim. It's become clear since the referendum that brexit is going to be disastrous unless promises are broken in respect of the customs union and single market. Labour is not morally bound to continue to support brexit in my opinion, but in terms of realpolitik it has absolutely no option but to stay publicly pro-brexit. If Labour now declared for remaining, you can imagine the field day the Tories would have. There are strains. Ninety percent of Labour Party members voted remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:16 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 10:58 AM
. . . Ninety percent of Labour Party members voted remain.

Where did that 'fact' come from?
Or is it just more unsubstantiated whimsy that you would like people to accept as 'fact'?

I haven't seen that figure quoted elsewhere, and even if it had been, I don't see how it could possibly be substantiated as part of the result of a secret ballot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:33 AM

My comment about Sinn Fein deciding to take their seats in Parliament was largely tongue in cheek, but not entirely. I do not underestimate for a moment how difficult this would be for them, and some of their supporters would see it as a monstrous betrayal, but it important to remember their goal is to have a united Ireland separate from the rest of the UK, and to do this by political means.

Any hard border within Ireland puts that goal back decades or more, whereas a border in the sea makes unification far more likely. Which the government as a whole would prefer is uncertain, but the position of the DUP is clear enough. So it is very much in line with Sinn Fein's long term goal to stop DUP having the decisive votes on this matter.

I don't think it likely to happen, because the difficulties are so huge, but it looks like it could be another case of a party sacrificing its long term goals to avoid a short term cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:53 AM

: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:33 AM
. . . Any hard border within Ireland puts that goal back decades or more, whereas a border in the sea makes unification far more likely. Which the government as a whole would prefer is uncertain, but the position of the DUP is clear enough. So it is very much in line with Sinn Fein's long term goal to stop DUP having the decisive votes on this matter.

You may well be right, and I won't argue the point.
I would point out that the opposite could also be true. A 'hard' land border imposed now could mean that they have to start pushing for reunification straight away, while a 'soft' (or sea) border could mean that the subject (while made easier) could be deferred.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:56 AM

Deary deary me. The pound has fallen still further against the Euro. It must be all those wonderful productivity and growth forecasts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:02 PM

A bit of truth about the issue of the border in Ireland...

https://www.facebook.com/OpenBritain/videos/1856844897689159/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:26 PM

" Labour is not morally bound to continue to support brexit in my opinion, but in terms of realpolitik it has absolutely no option but to stay publicly pro-brexit"

Better add hypocrisy to Lanour's other failings then hadn't we?

How weird that all these remoaners do not have a political party to support them!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:30 PM

Rag, 16 hours ago,
"Pound Gets a Boost
The pound has also been moving higher not only due to the weakness in the dollar but by its own strength as well as the incoming data has been pretty strong during the last few days. The budget announcement from the UK also brought it some cheer for the pound and that is why we are seeing the pound trading clearly above the 1.33 region as of this writing."
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/market-snapshot-pound-euro-move-140931993.html

Stu,
It's not undemocratic to change your mind when you come into possession of new information.

Who has changed their mind, and what new information has emerged?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:38 PM

Keith,
Much as I usually agree with you on matters Brexit, the 1.33 quoted is for the pound against the (US) Dollar, not against the Euro.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:42 PM

"A 'hard' land border imposed now could mean that they have to start pushing for reunification straight away,"
Thye don't have to "start pushing for re-unification' - Sinn Fein is now one MP short of being the majority party, thanks largely to Brexit
The main concern is what effect all this is having on the Peace Process.
Any move to direct rule is almost certain to start filling body-bags all over again.
RISE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:51 PM

" Labour is not morally bound to continue to support brexit in my opinion, but in terms of realpolitik it has absolutely no option but to stay publicly pro-brexit"

Better add hypocrisy to Lanour's other failings then hadn't we?

How weird that all these remoaners do not have a political party to support them!

Would that be Dorothy Lanour?

The Tories also have to stick to the pro-brexit line, no matter how bleak things are looking. You see hypocrisy, I see realpolitik. They all do it. We do have the LibDems and the Greens, by the way. Your side, on the other hand, was led by a party leader who didn't even have any MPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:56 PM

"Better add hypocrisy to Lanour's other failings then hadn't we?"
You think it hypocrisy for Lanour (assume you mean Labour) to accede to the will of the majority and try to make the best of it?
Puts the attitude of your party to the people's wished into context - dunnit?
"Where did that 'fact' come from?"
Of the 560,000 Labour Party members, 49% of members think there should “definitely” be a vote on the final Brexit deal, with a further 29.4% answering “more yes than no” to the question, and only 8.8% definitely opposing it.
I don't know if this is what Steve is referring to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:09 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:51 PM

. . . We do have the LibDems and the Greens, by the way. Your side, on the other hand, was led by a party leader who didn't even have any MPs.

Which party leader would that have been then?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:14 PM

"Where did that 'fact' come from?"
Of the 560,000 Labour Party members, 49% of members think there should ?definitely? be a vote on the final Brexit deal, with a further 29.4% answering ?more yes than no? to the question, and only 8.8% definitely opposing it.
I don't know if this is what Steve is referring to
Jim Carroll

No, it wasn't that. Those figures don't even come to 80% and they relate to those who wanted a final Parliamentary vote on Brexit, which has already been agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:16 PM

"@YouGov
90% of Labour party members voted Remain in the EU referendum (3/3) (link: http://y-g.co/29h4ZdZ) y-g.co/29h4ZdZ"

".....research carried out as part of the Party Members Project funded by the Economic and Social Research Council and shared exclusively with the Guardian...showing that 87% [of party members] voted remain" [Guardian, July 17]

Two surveys, two slightly different numbers, Nige. I wouldn't lie to you, honest. The point I used the figure for stands. Very rude of you to put "fact" in speech marks when what I told you was eminently checkable. Next time, check properly before you decide to get all nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:20 PM

That wasn't what I was referring to, Jim. See above references. Members were asked the direct question, how did you vote? We all know that if you ask different questions you often get puzzlingly inconsistent results.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:37 PM

Thank you Nigel, It would seem some people can't tell the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:39 PM

PS if the pound were suddenly to start trading at 1.33 euro to the pound I for one would swap a large sum of money to my euro account !!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:44 PM

Labour's official stance is at odds with both its membership and with Labour voters in general. The problem for Labour started when they acquiesced in Cameron's original call for a referendum. You could even argue that Gordon Brown made the party hostage to fortune by mooting a referendum when he was still in power, a point repeatedly made by Teribus. Once they'd made that grievous mistake they were obliged by political reality to accept the result and vote for Article 50. I'm not making excuses, but both major parties feel obliged to abide by political realities instead of being honest and acting in the real interests of this country, which would clearly be to abandon brexit immediately. I wonder how many Tory MPs still think, deep down, that Brexit is a great idea. We could decide to stay in the single market. Or, failing that agreement, things are going to look so bad in the next few months that there could be a volte-face by both parties. But who wants things to go to the brink like that? The only way that this fiasco won't crucify this country for generations to come is for the whole shambles to be abandoned right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:49 PM

Your side's leader was Nigel Farage. And there's no need to remind me that I got Douglas Carswell's timeline wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:56 PM

The pound has soared downward by a cent and a half against the euro since Tuesday. Dunno where you're getting all this optimism from, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:11 PM

"Dunno where you're getting all this optimism from, Keith."

He read it in 'The Planet Zog News'. It's the equivalent of the Daily Mail up there on Planet Zog.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:20 PM

"but both major parties feel obliged to abide by political realities instead of being honest and acting in the real interests of this country"

No it is labour practising realpolitic- the alternative being toast-
well done and burnt to a crisp.


Jim a man of your minuscule talents on a keyboard has some audacity to highlight a spelling error of mine!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:22 PM

".....research carried out as part of the Party Members Project funded by the Economic and Social Research Council and shared exclusively with the Guardian...showing that 87% [of party members] voted remain" [Guardian, July 17]

Two surveys, two slightly different numbers, Nige. I wouldn't lie to you, honest. The point I used the figure for stands. Very rude of you to put "fact" in speech marks when what I told you was eminently checkable. Next time, check properly before you decide to get all nasty.

I did check, and couldn't find anyone claiming 90% (apart from you).
The claim is still highly unlikely. You are quoting a survey (or two) where you previously appeared to be quoting statistics which are not available, as it was a secret ballot.
Cross correlation with 'membership' of the Labour party would make it doubly difficult to find an accurate figure.
The percentages may well match up with what people claimed were their voting intentions previously, but those figures were proved wrong.

At some time you will have to accept that people mislead pollsters, either accidentally or deliberately.
Your original quote Ninety percent of Labour Party members voted remain. cannot be backed up in any reasonable way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:27 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:51 PM
. . . We do have the LibDems and the Greens, by the way. Your side, on the other hand, was led by a party leader who didn't even have any MPs.

From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:09 PM
Which party leader would that have been then?

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:49 PM
Your side's leader was Nigel Farage. And there's no need to remind me that I got Douglas Carswell's timeline wrong.

So sorry to have to spoil your argument once again by interposing facts:
"Vote Leave" was a cross-party organisation which was designated by the Electoral Commission as the official campaign for leaving the EU.
Nigel Farage had no part in the official campaign

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:38 PM

Stop acting thick, Nigel. They were surveys, polls, taking samples. Not a secret ballot. People with metaphorical clipboards asking members after the event how they voted. They do that with election exit polls, which can prove to be a damn sight more accurate than opinion polls. I've already quoted two that gave slightly different percentages. That's what you get with surveys. One was YouGov, one was part of a Party Members Project funded by a perfectly respectable organisation. I can't tell you how they went about their surveys. On this occasion I've decided that members would have had little motivation to lie about their voting decisions and I'm up for taking the results at face value as a fair, if not super-accurate, indicator of sentiment among party members. You can please yourself. Keep gnawing away at this, Nige, but there's no meat left on the bone, honest there isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM

Are you honestly trying to tell us that Nigel Farage was not the de facto leader of the leave campaign? What planet are you on?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:46 PM

Same as the Professor - The Planet Zog.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:10 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:38 PM
Stop acting thick, Nigel. They were surveys, polls, taking samples. Not a secret ballot. People with metaphorical clipboards asking members after the event how they voted

Exactly. But you failed to mention any of that when you made your original claim, which I'll quote in full this time, just in case you try to claim it was taken out of context:
I agree with Stu there, Jim. It's become clear since the referendum that brexit is going to be disastrous unless promises are broken in respect of the customs union and single market. Labour is not morally bound to continue to support brexit in my opinion, but in terms of realpolitik it has absolutely no option but to stay publicly pro-brexit. If Labour now declared for remaining, you can imagine the field day the Tories would have. There are strains. Ninety percent of Labour Party members voted remain.

No caveats there. No "polls show that 90% . . ." or "90% of the Labour Party now claim to have voted Remain". Just a very straight:
Ninety percent of Labour Party members voted remain

Calling me 'thick' because I respond to what you put out as 'facts' (and the quote marks are deliberate, as what you are claiming now is different from what you claimed originally)is just a sign that you are losing the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:14 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM
Are you honestly trying to tell us that Nigel Farage was not the de facto leader of the leave campaign?

He played a major part in getting us the referendum, but was then sidelined when the Electoral Commission appointed the two teams to actually take control of the opposing sides of the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:23 PM

So that wasn't him posing in front of the bus with the '£350 million for the NHS' lie on the side then?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:08 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:23 PM
So that wasn't him posing in front of the bus with the '£350 million for the NHS' lie on the side then?

He may well have posed by a similar bus. But it has already been made perfectly clear (to most)that the bus actually said "We currently send the EU £ 350 million each week let's fund the NHS instead"
That does not mean that the whole £ 350 million will go to the NHS.
You may infer what you wish from the statement, but that doesn't mean that your inference is what was intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:17 PM

But a very great many feeble-minded, easily-influenced people believed that it meant the whole £350 million would go to the NHS - which is precisely the result that the Leave Campaign intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:35 PM

I don't care whether they said they would give £350million to the NHS on a bus, Nigel. I do care whether they said they would give it. I have posted a link below to a leaflet where they said it. Keith has been gracious enough to comment on it. That poster was from the co-chair of the Vote Leave campaign. It was also shown on 8th November by Simon Stevens when asking for better funding from the NHS.

So please, Nigel, explain how you interpret that poster.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 05:37 PM

Er, Nige, it was really only £160 million... ROTFLM bleedin' AO emojee...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 04:03 AM

"Labour is not morally bound to continue to support brexit in my opinion,"
Any party even only paying lip service to democracy is morally bound to the decision od a referendum - your party has proved over and over again that election promises and adherence to the people's wishes are not worth the paper they're printed on at election time
Whatever number voted at the time of the referendum, now the result has turned into the fiasco it has become, the Labour Party has not decided to abandon the decision but has moved towards calling a FURTHER REFERENDUM to decide whether the first decision was a wise one
That is what a responsible democratic party should do, given the circumstances.
In contrast, after a shambolic election result, your lot has done a deal with a party with terrorist links and which is up to its ares in a corruption scandal, BUNGED THEM A BILLION of TAXPAYERS MONEY in order to bail themselves out of a self-created mess
Now that's what I call democracy - Tory style!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 04:33 AM

Given the appalling lack of accuracy of recent polls I would have thought even the sandal wearing, pinkie gardianistas would think twice about predicating a course of action based on their results.
Lets face it, if corbyn openly advocates remain then he is yesterdays geriatric-a crumbled crumblie, and be thrown off his perch before you can say jack robinson.
Labour are no longer a political party- they are a nonstop comedy act.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 04:41 AM

Another whiff of labour hypocrisy:

https://order-order.com/2017/11/24/labour-call-centre-staff-on-12-hours-a-week-get-30p-pay-rise/

GUIDO the man that tells like it is

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 04:59 AM

Steve,
The pound has soared downward by a cent and a half against the euro since Tuesday. Dunno where you're getting all this optimism from, Keith.

Not mine. I only gave a quote from a financial report.
The pound did well but the Euro did a little better.
Where did Rag get his pessimism from?

BWM,
He read it in 'The Planet Zog News'. It's the equivalent of the Daily Mail up there on Planet Zog.

I gave the source and it said where it first appeared.
What do you dispute from the quote I gave.
If you are not talking bollocks, please be specific about what they got wrong.

But a very great many feeble-minded, easily-influenced people believed that it meant the whole ?350 million would go to the NHS - which is precisely the result that the Leave Campaign intended.

It was challenged at the time by the other side, and the dispute thoroughly aired and put to the people.
The electorate can not be dismissed as "feeble minded."
The Leave side won fair and square.

DMcG, did that poster appear in public during the debate?
As I said, I have no recollection of it. Have you?
It was far more contentious than the bus statement, so why was only that discussed?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 05:23 AM

"GUIDO the man that tells like it is
Fawkes is an extremist right wing Tory blogger and appears to be the only source for this 'information'
You've been given the facts about Tory democracy and ints links with a terrorist-involved party
You respond with a suggestion that the Labour Party would be better employed looking after its own majority rather than doing its job as a democratic party - alongside a right-wing blog which has nothing to do with what is beiong discussed
I assume that, as neither of you Tory flag-waggers have nothing to say about the £Billion bung to an iffy party, you and Keith are perfectly happy about that behaviour.
The leave side voted largely on the racist promise to rid Britain of asylum seekers and economic and war refugees from states we have supported with arms.
Nothing "fair and square" about that - in fact it's somewhat sordid behaviour that debases the British people.
Bus poster my arse - that's how election policy is put forward in Britain today - on lying promises of how much would be given to the NHS if "you vote for our side"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 05:27 AM

"Labour are no longer a political party- they are a nonstop comedy act."
From a supporting newsaper
THE TORIES ARE CRIMINALLY INCOMPETENT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 05:35 AM

DMcG, did that poster appear in public during the debate?

Completely beside the point. Is it from the Leave campaign team and does it promise to pay the NHS £350 million a week?

Need I spell this out? The Leave Campaign wrote both the leaflet and the bus slogan at more or less the same time. If we assume a modicum of an approval process, the same people approved both the bus slogan and the leaflet. Therefore, however ambiguous the bus slogan might be, you either have to believe that both the leaflet and the bus mean more or less the same thing, or that the same people are saying different at more or less the same time. Either way, it doesn't look good.


So once again, what do you say the leaflet promises?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 05:39 AM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:17 PM
But a very great many feeble-minded, easily-influenced people believed that it meant the whole ?350 million would go to the NHS - which is precisely the result that the Leave Campaign intended.

And you (from your earlier comment) clearly believe that that is what it said.
So I take it that you are describing yourself as feeble-minded.

No argument from me on that one!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 05:42 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:35 PM
I don't care whether they said they would give ?350million to the NHS on a bus, Nigel. I do care whether they said they would give it. I have posted a link below to a leaflet where they said it. Keith has been gracious enough to comment on it. That poster was from the co-chair of the Vote Leave campaign. It was also shown on 8th November by Simon Stevens when asking for better funding from the NHS.
So please, Nigel, explain how you interpret that poster.

I haven't yet seen the poster. But I was commenting on what it actually showed on the side of the bus, and correcting Backwoodsman's 'quote' of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 05:56 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 05:37 PM
Er, Nige, it was really only ?160 million... ROTFLM bleedin' AO emojee...

?160 million represented one method of coming up with a figure, but not the one Boris Johnson used. After the ?350 million figure was quoted Sir David Norgrove (Head of UK Statistics Authority) wrote to him (as quoted in most newspapers) complaining that he had "misused official statistics". Implicit in this was the fact that the figure quoted by Boris was part of "official statistics". As such the comment was something of an own-goal by David Norgrove.

ROTFLM bleedin' AO Sorry to hear you have a bleeding arse. Perhaps you need an urgent appointment with your doctor.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:02 AM

You haven't seen the leaflet, Nigel? Not even when I have invited you by name to look at it several times in this thread? Oh dear.

Never mind, here it is again

Now I freely admit, and did so when I first posted this, that the reverse is much more nuanced. But it is the big print headline occupying the whole of one side that contains the claim.

Now I don't know if you will accept this as a claim - you might think it a fake by someone, perhaps. But if you do accept it, then it follows the only response to comments on the bus that is "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" is to say "Yes, the Leave campaign did promise to give £350 million a week to the NHS, but not on the bus". Anything else would be saying "The bus didn't claim it" and hoping people assume what you mean is "The Leave campaign didn't claim it" which would be pretty deceitful.

And if the listener didn't know that - you would.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM

"From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:17 PM
But a very great many feeble-minded, easily-influenced people believed that it meant the whole ?350 million would go to the NHS - which is precisely the result that the Leave Campaign intended.

And you (from your earlier comment) clearly believe that that is what it said.
So I take it that you are describing yourself as feeble-minded.

No argument from me on that one!"

Hmmmm, you either don't 'get' irony, Nigel, or you're being deliberately, wilfully, obtuse.

And, to answer your rather insulting comment (why do you people always turn to insults when you know you have no case?) - no, I never believed it, just as I never believed the 'Take Back Control' and 'Stop Immigration' bullshit that the bunch of Brexit Vipers trotted out.

Have you got snow in Sheffield today?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:24 AM

Is it from the Leave campaign team and does it promise to pay the NHS £350 million a week?

Clearly yes, but did it ever form any part of the debate?
If not it has no relevance.

My guess it was rejected by Leave, but maybe led to the more realistic bus statement which did form a major part of the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:28 AM

My guess it was rejected by Leave

It was sent to Gisela Stuarts' constituents if no-one else. So, no, it was not rejected.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:37 AM

Are you sure? It certainly was never part of the national debate and so did not influence the result.
I can not believe that the official Leave campaign would make such a statement.
I really doubt that they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:48 AM

It was one of Gisela's leaflets, Keith. On the back is her face, some statements and, in line with the rules, the details of the printer. Were there some legal or journalistic investigation, it would be possible to find out, for example, how many were printed and when. Now it is in principle possible that she had enough printed to deliver to her constituents and then thought better of it and binned them, but again were there such an formal investigation there would be enough of an audit trail to be certain.

But in normal circumstances when a campaign prints a large number of leaflets it makes sure they are right before they are sent to the printers - though there as amusing examples online where this has not happened! - and, having had them printed, distributes them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:13 AM

"Giselda Stuart"
Interesting to examine where Grisly Giselda is coming from
An right-wing Blairite, the only Labour member to support George Dubya's re-election, when she wrote that "a victory for Democratic Party challenger, John Kerry, would prompt "victory celebrations among those who want to destroy liberal democracies. More terrorists and suicide bombers would step forward to become martyrs in their quest to destroy the West"
She is a signatory to the Ultra conservative Henry Jackson Society is a neo-conservative British foreign policy think tank.
As a leading figure of the "Leave" campaign, she has shared a platform with Boris Johnson and Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsome.
Her politics, personal associates and influences all indicate that her statement on the leaflet is indicative of the official policy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:15 AM

Funny how the party that is no longer a party but a non-stop comedy act run by a crumbling geriatric managed, against all the odds, to fire a serious shot across the Tories' bows and rob them of their parliamentary majority, innit? And do you know why it happened, Iains? Because the extremely complacent Tory party spent the whole election campaign painting Labour as a non-party, non-stop comedy act run by a crumbling geriatric. So my advice to you and the rest of you Tories is to keep it up!

Nigel, the real figure was nothing like £350 million. I gave you one source to explain that the real number was less than half of that. Rattling on about £350 million makes you look foolish. Whether it was on a bus, a poster or being spouted by a lying hound of a politician on the campaign trail, it was a massive lie right from the outset, the lie compounded by the very strong implication, declaration even, that it was money going to be freed for the NHS. If you tell a huge, bare-faced lie then pretend, as Keith as been doing, that it's all "just part of the debate," then you're conniving in dishonesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:38 AM

I see two separable lies, Steve. The first is the amount offered. The second, which really only started being claimed after the vote as best I remember (but I am happy to be corrected) is whether there was any specific promise that the NHS would get any "Brexit benefit" or whether that was just one suggestion amongst all the other worthy causes we might give funding to.

I must pick up another of Keith's points, if only because it gives me an irresistible pun. Whether £350 million would be given to the NHS was a key part of the campaign. It did influence the result, according to analysts. But it is completely irrelevant with the vehicle for that message was a bus or a leaflet. What matters was the promise, nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:39 AM

'whether', not 'with'. Wrecks the joke. Damn.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:53 AM

The promise that the leaflet appeared to make in its opening sentence was not supported by the rest of the leaflet.
The rest of the leaflet was in line with the bus claim, which was widely and openly debated so the electorate was fully informed of the challenges to it.

Both sides were put and the people decided, just as the jury does in a court case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:58 AM

The promise that the leaflet appeared to make in its opening sentence was not supported by the rest of the leaflet.

Again, I made that point in my original post about it, Keith. You have to remember that the reason these leaflets have large print and few words on one side is not because they think the recipients have startlingly poor eyesight. It is so the leaflet can be put in the window as a poster. Whereupon passers-by only get to see one side: the one with the promise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 08:20 AM

"Who has changed their mind, and what new information has emerged?"

If you need to ask the question, may I suggest you pay strict attention to the discussions and debates happening now via the media, social media and one-to-one conversations, and re-read my original post so you understand what I saying about Labour being able to change it's policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 08:44 AM

Interesting article on people who have changed their minds about their Brexit vote, and the science behind us changing our minds: ?I thought I?d put in a protest vote?: the people who regret voting leave

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:04 AM

If anyone put that leaflet in their windows, it was not enough for it to enter the national debate.
The much less contentious bus statement was debated, nationally and endlessly. The challenges to that statement would also have encompassed the leaflet claim if anyone had read it.
Why is this leaflet worthy of debate now?

Stu, any evidence that a significant number of people have changed their minds significantly more in one direction than the other?

What information has become available since the debate to make anyone change their mind anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:20 AM

"Much less contentious?" That £350 million was a downright lie. The true figure would have been less than half that. How much more contentious can you get?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:23 AM

Well, yes, we do need to get back to Post Brexit as in the thread title. But the reason talking about the leaflet is relevant is that today some Leavers say no claim was ever made about payments, and if so that is, I contend, a lie being made now. The leaflet is simply evidence that the statement made now is at the least open to argument.

But I am far more interested in what we do next. Hence why thw other thing I have been talking about is the border question.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:30 AM

"Funny how the party that is no longer a party but a non-stop comedy act run by a crumbling geriatric managed, against all the odds, to fire a serious shot across the Tories' bows and rob them of their parliamentary majority, innit?"

Funny that he ain't PM and likely never will be, innit?

AS I said previously: Labout, a non-stop comedy act run by a crumbling geriatric

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:41 AM

I nearly to your post earlier in this thread about repeating yourself, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:44 AM

Apologies once again. As I have said before, editing messages on my phone is troublesome. I wrote 'linked', changed it to 'referenced', and in the process ended up sending it with the word left out entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 11:07 AM

If we should ignore the Labour party because it is run by a "crumbling geriatic" should we also ignore comments posted here by people of a similar age?

I somehow think the number of posters would fall dramatically.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 11:20 AM

Steve,
"Much less contentious?" That £350 million was a downright lie. The true figure would have been less than half that. How much more contentious can you get?

That point was forcibly made at the time. and put to the electorate along with all the other disputed issues.
The people decided that Leave made a better case.

Rag, at 67 I consider myself too old to lead a major political party, but not too old to have relevant and informed opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 11:59 AM

I would put you up to lead a parade!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 12:13 PM

The people decided

Not "The" but "Some".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 12:19 PM

"Rag, at 67 I consider myself too old to lead a major political party, but not too old to have relevant and informed opinions."

Oh, Keith, never fear, it isn't your age that's the problem, believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 12:57 PM

"The people decided that Leave made a better case."
And it's astarted as I said it would
The people voted on the basis of being lide to by your friend Farage and the rest of the Ukip scum - as I said - divide and conquor
Brexit was carried through by people who wished to blame immigration for all the Britain's problems - that was the argument - cut down the number of immigrants and all our problems would be solved
That was apparent by the sharp rise in RACIST INCIDENTS immediately after the result was announced
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 01:18 PM

"Rag, at 67 I consider myself too old to lead a major political party, but not too old to have relevant and informed opinions."


Obviously gobby corbyn does not share your view, more's the pity!

Jim calling people scum just invites retaliation, you pillock.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 01:32 PM

"Jim calling people scum just invites retaliation, you pillock."
Do you really believe racist scum like Ukip shouldn't be described thus?
It's ok to call other party leaders "gobby" and its ok for you to abuse others on this forum but "hands off Ukiip " eh
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 02:17 PM

Well Jim for me there is a significant difference in degree between calling someone gobby and calling them scum.Maybe such subtleties are beyond you - you prefer both barrels at the outset.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 02:42 PM

"and calling them scum."
Is there really?
Ukip is a racist party that went into the Brexit campaign under a racist banner, with posters showing be-turbaned hordes invading our green and pleasant land
That’s “scummy” where I come from – interesting you don’t think so
Whatever the merits or de-merits of Corbyn, “mouthy” isn’t the word that springs to mind – on the contrary, some of us think he doesn’t say enough
He seems to be a fairly decadent and principled politician which knocks your crowd of crooked clowns and their dealings with terrorist linked parties into the next universe
You want “mouthy – try mad Boris, whose mouth has just run the risk of doubling the sentence of a British citizen imprisoned in Iran as a suspected political agitator
Now that’s what I call “mouthy” – inhumanly so
But don’t let me stop you – you go on defending the good name of Fuehrer Farrago
Get it all of your chest laddie
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 03:31 PM

Ah, the curse of those bloody question marks. I imagine you meant decent, not decadent, Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 04:04 PM

Here are some of the kind of bollock-brains that landed us in this BrexShit tragedy. "The EU took all our manufacturing, gave it to Germany, and gave us the silly banks"??? WT actual F??

My bloody dog's got more intelligence than that bunch of bone-heads.

More Planet-Zog-Dwellers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 07:38 PM

Well, John, as Churchill said (and I'm no fan), "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 08:22 PM

Do you like Theodore Roosevalt any better, Steve?

It may be that "the voice of the people is the voice of God" in fifty one cases out of a hundred, but in the remaining forty nine it is quite as likely to be the voice of the devil, or, what is still worse, the voice of a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 08:34 PM

I suppose democracy is the best of a bad lot, but, to me, democracy means voting in people who are then there to make the big decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 03:07 AM

¬(∃(¬p) ⇒ ∄p)

Woke up thinking that this morning. It summarises the business with leaflets and buses perfectly.

Maybe we need to use more formal logic on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 03:26 AM

"Maybe we need to use more formal logic on this thread."

This would assume that all posting have the required skills.

Chance would be a fine thing!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 04:09 AM

"What information has become available since the debate to make anyone change their mind anyway?"

Keith, I can't be arsed to type out the salient points of the flow of information that fuels the Brexit debate; if you don't know what this information on the consequences of Brexit that weren't discussed in there run up to the vote then there's little point in discussing it anyway. The media goes over this information in detail everyday.

We are allowed to change our minds; in science it's imperative you question everything and see you might have been wrong in the light of new data, admit it in front of your peers and change your mind; people should try it sometime as it's liberating not to be tied to an ideology or dogma.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 04:14 AM

My mind does work like that all the time, Iains. Not that I am claiming I never make mistakes, or there is anything particularly special about it: it is just my way of 'being in the world'. Just like a historian cannot walk through a town without subconsciously (or consciously) continually reflecting on why that building is there and not elsewhere, or when it came to be; or a geologist going through a landscape - they are habitually assessing the geology even if they are unaware of it. Or a good salesman seeing the openings and closes in any conversation they take part in. Or an artist. Or a poet.

Just my way of being happens to have formal logic rolling away in the background the whole time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 04:19 AM

"I imagine you meant decent, not decadent, Jim!"
I did, of course - something that to be beyond the concept of these people
When people talk about Western Democracy I always remember Ghandi's response to a question about Western civilisation - "I think it would a a good idea"
True Democracy can never exist while the information needed to run society remains in the hands of the political elite and the privately owned media.

Brexit was sold to the public on the basis of half truths and lies based on a failing economic system - it was scapegoat politics at its very worst - "control our borders and get rid of the "undesirables" and everything will be tikety-boo"
That was Farage's message and it was that which dominated the campaign.
Brexit has now proved to be an economic and social nightmare, if Britain echoes what is happening in Europe, it will become a political nightmare and will have opened the door to the EXTREMIST RIGHT
Jim Caaarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 04:35 AM

More comments on the border issue

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM

Here's a piece I picked up from newscrasher.com, which pretty much sums up everything I feel about the tragic debacle of BrexShit. Perhaps our Forum Crystal-Ball Gazers and Planet-Zog-Dwellers can answer the questions it asks?

"This comment about Brexit in the Guardian has been going viral. It sums up very well how much of the country now feel about Brexit and the people who are forcing the country off the cliff-edge and towards the imminent destruction of not just the economy, but the very fabric of Britain itself.

“Thank you brexiters. You have succeeded in doing what no Armada, airforce, enemy or war has done in 300 years. You’ve made Britain small.
Your vote has manifestly and undeniably reduced this country. You have diminished us in the eyes of the world. Our power has been lessened, our influence has declined, we no longer have the same reach and standing.

You’ve lost us our seat on the international court. You’ve lost us our banks access to Europe. You’ve lost us our position as the cutting edge of European research. You’ve lost us any influence over our European neighbours and friends and as a consequence of that the rest of the world too.

You’ve turned this country into a backwater. You’ve made us a little people on a little island on the periphery of world events.

Taking back control? You’ve given all our power away for a sack full of dreams and a belly full of bile.

Why?

Why have you done this? I don’t understand. What is it? What is this grand dream that you believe we’ve lost and that leaving the EU will bring back?

Is it possible that I’m the only British person alive today that has no clue as to what we’re meant to be fighting for? I literally have no idea what you brexiters want. I know what we’re meant to be against, but not one positive thing we’re meant to be striving towards in this new non European Britain. It seems to be something to do with churchill but other than than not a clue. It also seems that as I don’t know what this shared dream is meant to be then somehow you believe I’m now a traitor, why?

So brexiters please tell us all what you’re for, what you want? What is this “control” you claim to want so badly? What is it control over?

I’m not sure you actually understand yourselves. I think it’s a feeling you’re craving, a feeling of control over a world that is passing you by. I don’t think it amounts to any more than that. You want our country to bend to feelings and that’s it. You’re after obtaining the intangible and ephemeral by dismantling the real and permanent.

So please brexiters if you want me to pronounce shibboleth can you please have the decency of saying it out loud first. Give me a clue as to what you want us to be?”

So, come on Professor, Iains, Nigs, st al! tell us, do. Help us here, we're all ears.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 05:39 AM

Apologies for the question marks in place of inverted commas. HTML letting itself down again.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:11 AM

Easy Peasy! Independant and largely in control. Not part of a grouping racing towards federalism and with it's spending totally out of control.
Away from a political grouping that is increasingly ignoring it's electorate and having an agenda increasingly driven by jackboots from Germany.

I do not think I require some patronising, sandal wearing, little twat from the Gruniard telling me how to think. There is a plenitude of his clones on this forum.

"You?ve turned this country into a backwater. You?ve made us a little people on a little island on the periphery of world events."
Been going down that road since the Boer War, and that was a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:54 AM

In what sense are we not already independent? The UK contributes 0.5%, half of one percent, of its total GDP to the EU. We are not in the eurozone. 95% of all laws pertaining to the EU have been fully agreed to by the UK and with around just 2% of EU laws are we in active disagreement. We buy more from them than they buy from us, and it's all tariff-free, and, in very round figures it amounts to about half of all our trade. We can and do trade with the rest of the world, but all thst will now have to be renegotiated. Cor, aren't we good at negotiating! The EU forms a powerful trading bloc that contains the UK population times eight. That's what we're ditching.

So, once we are up to our necks in tariffs, red tape and having to keep to trading rules that we'll no longer have any say in, and have to try to strike favourable deals for our uncompetitive exports with other countries, many of whom are currently laughing their heads off at what we're doing, I'm sure you'll be able to explain to me precisely how we'll be any more "independent" than we are now. Just a gentle word in your shell-like: king, country, Biggles and empire are long dead. Try that on with those prospective trading partners and they'll just laugh all the way to China and India.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:56 AM

largely in control

Ooo, that's an interesting 'largely'. I don't remember that being in the campaigning. Care to elaborate on some of the things you agree you will NOT be in control of?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 09:06 AM

"I do not think I require some patronising, sandal wearing, little twat from the Gruniard telling me how to think."
Aren't you the feller who has just objected to the racist Ukip being described as "scum"

"You can tell a man who boozes by the company he chooses,
And the bleedin' pig got up and walked away"

Much easier to throw stones at the facts to keep them at bay rather than to have to have to answer them
Now that's what I call "easy peasy"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 09:11 AM

"Ooo, that's an interesting 'largely'. I don't remember that being in the campaigning."

I would have thought it obvious that no country can be truly independent unless it exists in total isolation. I am sure anyone could work that out. Perhaps you require a campaign to aid buttering your toast of a morning.
Over flights and air traffic management is one obvious area where agreement is required. This is not ceding Control, it is a case of reaching agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 09:40 AM

This is not ceding Control, it is a case of reaching agreement.

That is precisely my point. Almost everything that is potentially controllable needs an agreement between two or more parties. Neither side is "in control" of that.

It was given as a silly example, I know, but both the butter and the bread on my buttered toast are subject to agreements and business priorities. If a business produces butter according to EU standards and we have a different set of standards then it is entirely that business's decision whether to do something special for us or not. So in neither case are we 'in control'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 10:00 AM

Assuming that we'll keep trading with the EU to at least a considerable extent, we will have less control than now, AND we'll be paying tariffs. They won't slacken their trading rules and standards just for us, and we'll no longer have any say in how those standards are set. I suppose we'll have control over not letting in the few remaining EU citizens who we'll sorely need...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 10:01 AM

The few remaining citizens who actually still want to come here is what I meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 10:03 AM

Anyway, the main reason I pointed the 'largely' out was to highlight a change of tone, which can be a precursor to a change.

"We will take back control."
"We will take back control."
"We will take back control."
"We will largely take back control."

BZZZZZ! Alarm bells!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 10:32 AM

For the last twenty years of her life, my mother suffered from Paranoid Schizophrenia. During her paranoid episodes, she was utterly, completely, absolutely convinced that everyone around her was setting 'traps' to 'prove' that she was a thief, in order to 'get me in trouble with the police'. At the same time, she believed that everyone was laughing at her.

No matter what we, her wider family, and friends did or said to show her she was mistaken, she 'knew' that she was 'right', and that we were all part of the plot against her. Utterly delusional, she was impossible to discuss rationally with, because she 'knew stuff' that the rest of us couldn't see. The frustration of trying to make her see sense, to see how mistaken she was, was almost unbearable. In the end, I'm sure we gave up trying, as we felt she was beyond help.

I get precisely the same feelings of frustration listening to the 'free unicorn with every pack of union-jack boxers' Little Englanders. They are beyond help.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 11:20 AM

See Trump Trick Thread 25 Nov 17 - 11:51 AM

The parallel is exact.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 12:12 PM

The difference in control by being inside or outside the EU can be expressed by way of analogy. Inside we are passengers on a train, on a fixed route, to a fixed destination. Outside we can drive our own car, at our own pace, to our own itinery and stop off to admire the view whenever the mood takes.
I would have preferred to see change occur as a part of the EU but the rest of the EU drivers have cloth ears. It is a stark choice federalism or freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 12:35 PM

Freedom from what? Common sense?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 12:50 PM

Greg if you wish to publicly display your stupidity please continue.
Your nonsense is best confined to your insult the president thread", where all opposition is deleted

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 12:57 PM

There is no fixed route to a fixed destination without our say-so. Important changes can be vetoed by individual member countries. We've had this talk of "ever-closer union" for decades. I'd like to know what the signs of this "ever-closer union" are that I'm supposed to be looking out for, well, apart from the disastrous single currency that you are able to opt out of in any case. I certainly haven't seen much sign of any EU country I've been to rushing to give up their individual identities. The trouble with spending too much time admiring the view from that car that you paid a tariff on and which has a tank full of expensive fuel due to the weak pound causing inflation is that you don't notice that brick wall coming at you to smack you in the face.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 01:10 PM

Choose to not opt into, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 01:48 PM

'We' (by which I mean as represented by our own Parliamentary Sovereignty) are already in control, 'we' have always been in control. How many times does it need to be said - every law to which the U.K. is subject has been ratified by the Parliament of the U.K., irrespective of its origin. The U.K. is one of only nine member-states who have a power of veto over EU laws 'we' don't like.

I refer to my previous post regarding the frustrations inherent in, and pointlessness of, trying to interact and debate with those who are completely delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 02:02 PM

Shaw if you are going to harp on about independence from the disastrous single currency you cannot realistically squawk when economic disparities between sterling and the single currency lead to variable exchange rates.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 02:23 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:54 AM
In what sense are we not already independent? The UK contributes 0.5%, half of one percent, of its total GDP to the EU. We are not in the eurozone. 95% of all laws pertaining to the EU have been fully agreed to by the UK and with around just 2% of EU laws are we in active disagreement. We buy more from them than they buy from us, and it's all tariff-free, and, in very round figures it amounts to about half of all our trade. We can and do trade with the rest of the world, but all thst will now have to be renegotiated. Cor, aren't we good at negotiating! The EU forms a powerful trading bloc that contains the UK population times eight. That's what we're ditching.

The EU does make a powerful trading block, but a trading block which has put 'protectionist' tariffs on the import of many basic foodstuffs which we could import at lower tariffs (WTO) if we were allowed to trade freely. Even without entering into negotiations with those exporting countries we could trade at WTO tariffs, and see a reduced cost of our foods.

"We buy more from them than they buy from us, and it's all tariff free" It's all tariff free when we buy it from (say) Germany, but if it originally sourced from outside the EU then any import tariff has already been paid in Germany, and has been accounted (as a mark up) for when setting the price that Germany will sell it at in order to make a profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM

Stu,
We are allowed to change our minds

Have sigificant numbers of people done so either way?

Keith, I can't be arsed to type out the salient points of the flow of information that fuels the Brexit debate;

I follow it all closely, but there is nothing new in any of it to mak someone change ther mind.

Can you be arsed to give an example of something that you are referring to?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 02:49 PM

Sure, Nigel. We could get slightly cheaper, GM, grub or chlorine chicken. Groovy! Get real, Nige. The standards insisted on by the EU are GOOD standards. And tariff-free. And we are not suddenly going to find a load of cheap, eager markets selling us their food. We have to renegotiate every one of them first. They are hardly gagging for us. We will have to carry on trading in EU food for decades. With tariffs. Some of which are bloody stiff. You are the numero uno denial merchant in this thread.

"Shaw if you are going to harp on about independence from the disastrous single currency you cannot realistically squawk when economic disparities between sterling and the single currency lead to variable exchange rates."

In English, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 03:04 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 02:49 PM
Sure, Nigel. We could get slightly cheaper, GM, grub or chlorine chicken. Groovy! Get real, Nige. The standards insisted on by the EU are GOOD standards. And tariff-free. And we are not suddenly going to find a load of cheap, eager markets selling us their food. We have to renegotiate every one of them first. They are hardly gagging for us. We will have to carry on trading in EU food for decades.

Never mind GM foods & chlorine (washed) chicken. Those are not the EUs sole imports (in fact the EU prevents their import)
How about Coffee (not much of that grown in EU) There may be no tariffs when it is sold on within the EU but as I pointed out above, by that stage the import tariff has already been paid, and will be included as part of the cost (without showing as a tariff) when sold on within the EU.

If you don't understand the matter of import tariffs then continuing to claim that we get stuff "Tariff Free" within the EU shows a lamentable lack of understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 04:35 PM

"In English, please? "
I fawt you was well educated! Let's see, in the last week you have claimed to be a scientist, a biologist, a zoologist. What are you claiming to be this coming week - a boring sandal wearing ex teacher that knows nothing? Are you perhaps a Walter Mitty?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 05:52 PM

Just seen this posted by a friend who is in the USA at the moment. You know, that place of free trade that we are trying to emulate...

Sliced wholemeal loaf: $4.95 = ?3.80 (UK Aldi: 80p, Tesco: ?1.20)

Bag of sugar: $1.59 = ?1.22 (UK Aldi 79p Tesco: 85p)

Small jar of own brand honey: $4.79 = ?3.68 (UK Tesco: ?1.69)

425gms* olive spread: $2.69 = ?2.07
*UK olive spread is typically supplied in 500gm tubs, = cost ?2.43 (UK Aldi: 80p Tesco: ?1)

Cucumber: $2.50 = ?1.92 (UK Aldi 68p)

New potatoes: $4.49 = ?3.45 (UK Aldi: under ?2)

Still, I suppose coming out of Europe will keep the fuzzy-wuzzies out.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 06:04 PM

Nigel, dear chap. I think it's rather a good thing that the EU doesn't allow GM food and chlorine chicken.

Don't you?

As for coffee, so we get it direct instead of via the EU. Have a little think, Nige. It means just the one tariff for us whichever way you do it, yeah? So what's yer point?

Iains, just try to write nice English. You've fallen down very badly on several occasions recently, and you've also regaled us with rather dense and ineffective grandstandings of your alleged geological "knowledge." Get that big chip off your shoulder (inferiority complex or what?), stop insulting people (glass houses and all that...) and just tell us with a civil tongue in your head what you think about the issues under discussion. It's what grown persons do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:22 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 06:04 PM
Nigel, dear chap. I think it's rather a good thing that the EU doesn't allow GM food and chlorine chicken.
Don't you?
As for coffee, so we get it direct instead of via the EU. Have a little think, Nige. It means just the one tariff for us whichever way you do it, yeah? So what's yer point?

No, I don't think it's a good thing that the EU bans imports of all GM foods, and of Chlorine-washed chicken ('Chlorine chicken' surely has no real meaning, except for your understanding).
As for coffee, Norway imposes no tariffs (presumably they've worked out that they don't produce their own) The EU impose several variable tariffs. See Here

If you don't understand the matter of import tariffs then continuing to claim that we get stuff "Tariff Free" within the EU shows a lamentable lack of understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:32 PM

Nige, our dealings with OTHER EU COUNTRIES is tariff-free. Which it will not be after brexit. What part of that troubles you so? The point is remarkably simple: that will stop when we leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:46 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:32 PM
Nige, our dealings with OTHER EU COUNTRIES is tariff-free. Which it will not be after brexit. What part of that troubles you so? The point is remarkably simple: that will stop when we leave.

I believe I've already made it clear enough.
Purchases from the EU of commodities which originate (totally) within the EU may be "tariff free" (at present). But for most goods which are originally sourced from outside the EU, although we may not pay an import tariff, as such, (for our purchases within the EU) that tariff has already been paid elsewhere within the EU and is included within the "tariff free" price we pay. It's not a case that we are paying a tariff, but that the tariff is a hidden cost within the price of the goods.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:48 PM

Hey, chaps. Nigel wants intensively-reared Yankee chicken that would be too dangerous to eat were it not for the fact that it had to be washed in chlorine. Nigel doesn't mind GM crops that have been bred to resist pesticides so that farmers can use the latter with gay abandon and kill all the bees. Groovy!

Christ, I bet Nigel has his GM chlorinated chicken with Smash and GM baked beans for Sunday lunch. Yum!

How are you on global warming, the moon landings and Kennedy's assassination, Nige?

You're not real, are you, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:52 PM

You really don't get that we will be paying a fortune for foods imported from the EU as compared with today, do you, Nige? I mean, what do you think actually MATTERS to real live people, Nige?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:54 PM

Oops, sorry, folks. I forgot that Nigel is a Tory and that Tories don't give a flying fart what happens to ordinary people...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:00 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:48 PM
Hey, chaps. Nigel wants intensively-reared Yankee chicken that would be too dangerous to eat were it not for the fact that it had to be washed in chlorine. Nigel doesn't mind GM crops that have been bred to resist pesticides so that farmers can use the latter with gay abandon and kill all the bees. Groovy!
Christ, I bet Nigel has his GM chlorinated chicken with Smash and GM baked beans for Sunday lunch. Yum!
How are you on global warming, the moon landings and Kennedy's assassination, Nige?
You're not real, are you, Nigel?

Hey, folks.
Steve Shaw is reading a hell of a lot into what I say which isn't actually there.
"Intensively reared chicken" We have that too. the difference is in how it is cleaned.
"GM crops" - pesticide resistance is not the sole reason for these.
"global warming, the moon landings and Kennedy's assassination," have not, as yet, been mentioned in this discussion, except for the introduction now by Steve Shaw.

My comments were about "Import tariffs". Clearly Steve Shaw does not understand these, and will try to divert the discussion to avoid accepting that he has no real understanding of the subject.
So much for a "well educated scientist".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:16 PM

You're losing it, Nigel. Your whole approach is predicated on denial. You're groovy with GM crops and disinfected intensive imported chicken. Very patriotic (and here's me thinking you wanted to "take back control"). Not me, mate. I'm no purist but my chicken is free-range British and my veg is either home-grown or organic British, or, bottom line, local if nowt else (you can't beat a Cornish cauli). And those import tariffs you reckon I don't get, well even twats like Gove, Boris, Davis and Fox will give you the bottom line if you ask them, the only thing that is going to matter to British people, that after brexit all food imports from the EU will COST A LOT MORE. You scrabble around for cheap Yankee chickens if you like (try to make sure they actually have both legs). Some of us actually have standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:19 PM

Enjoy your imported cocoa. It'll cost you a lot more by 2019. I have a long day ahead. Nighy night!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:20 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:54 PM
Oops, sorry, folks. I forgot that Nigel is a Tory and that Tories don't give a flying fart what happens to ordinary people...

Oops: yet another comment which denigrates a large proportion (if you look at recent voting) of the population.

Of course "tories" are concerned about what happens to "ordinary people". Most of us are ordinary people.

There is a popular aphorism, attributed to different people:
A man who is not a Liberal at sixteen has no heart; a man who is not a Conservative at sixty has no head.
—Benjamin Disraeli (1804-1881)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:20 PM

Nighy? Sorry, Bill, I meant nighty!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:23 PM

the bottom line if you ask them, the only thing that is going to matter to British people, that after brexit all food imports from the EU will COST A LOT MORE.

That pre-supposes that we have to buy goods from the EU, rather than buying from those countries which actually produce the goods.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:26 PM

Your party is concerned with me first, party first, self-interest first, sod the undeserving poor, profit at all costs, devil take the hindmost and always look after number one. Interests of the country? What's that when it's at 'ome?

I must to bed!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:34 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:26 PM
Your party is concerned with me first, party first, self-interest first, sod the undeserving poor, profit at all costs, devil take the hindmost and always look after number one. Interests of the country? What's that when it's at 'ome?
I must to bed!

Make your mind (if any) up. There cannot be three things which are all 'first'.

Call yourself "well educated"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:40 PM

"That pre-supposes that we have to buy goods from the EU, rather than buying from those countries which actually produce the goods."

Great. I can't wait to try that Venezuelan Prosecco, that Gambian chorizo, that Mexican bratwurst, that Chilean Camembert, that Falkland Brie, that Peruvian VW Golf, that Indonesian Chianti, that Alaskan ouzo, that Namibian lamb, that Bolivian salami...

We will be buying stuff from the EU for decades, brexit regardless. We can't suddenly scrap half of our trade. We don't have deals with other potential trading partners and we are a very small fish. No king, no country, no Biggles, no empire, Nige. You have yet to come to terms. Typical Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:43 PM

"Call yourself "well educated"?"

I've seen worse. Next insulting loser's question, please...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 09:01 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:40 PM

Great. I can't wait to try that Venezuelan Prosecco, that Gambian chorizo, that Mexican bratwurst, that Chilean Camembert, that Falkland Brie, that Peruvian VW Golf, that Indonesian Chianti, that Alaskan ouzo, that Namibian lamb, that Bolivian salami...
No, of course we won't be buying items with noted places of origin from elsewhere. We will instead buy the goods produced by other countries. "Venezuelan Prosecco, Indonesian Chianti, and Alaskan Ouzo" will be replaced by actual products. The EU no longer have a monopoly on good wines (although you buy the "cheap" stuff). America and Australia (and Chile and elsewhere) produce fine wines.
"Ouzo" may only come from Greece, but there are any number of spirits available from other countries. (Maybe you will insist on drinking Spanish Tequila, an equally absurd suggestion)

We will be buying stuff from the EU for decades, brexit regardless. We can't suddenly scrap half of our trade. We don't have deals with other potential trading partners and we are a very small fish. No king, no country, no Biggles, no empire, Nige. You have yet to come to terms. Typical Tory.

"No king, no country"? No, we don't have a 'king' at present, we have a queen. And we are still a country, no matter how much you try to belittle us.
Are you 'British'? if so you obviously have no pride in this, our nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 09:03 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:43 PM
"Call yourself "well educated"?"
I've seen worse. Next insulting loser's question, please...

I'm sure you have seen worse.
Probably those poor souls who had the misfortune to be taught by you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 09:10 PM

Gotcha at last, Nigel, though I wasn't even trying. You are firmly in the Iains/Woodcock swamp. Enjoy the wallow! Jayz, do I need those emojis!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 02:29 AM

"No king, no country"? No, we don't have a 'king' at present, we have a queen. And we are still a country, no matter how much you try to belittle us.
Are you 'British'? if so you obviously have no pride in this, our nation

I always find lines like this worrying. They bring to mind Samuel Johnson's "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" and Owen's

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.

To be clear: I am not calling you a scoundrel, Nigel, not am I saying that Brexit can be meaningfully compared to the first world war. Patriotism can be a great and noble thing.

But it can also be exploited. It is always, I think, an appeal to the emotions and it is very easily used to hide the weakness of an underlying argument.

And my experience, so far as it goes, it is most used so that a person can say 'I am Patriotic and you are not'. Which amongst other things fails to grasp that different people can have different interpretations but both be patriotic.


So let's leave such slurs to one side, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 03:33 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 02:29 AM

"No king, no country"? No, we don't have a 'king' at present, we have a queen. And we are still a country, no matter how much you try to belittle us.
Are you 'British'? if so you obviously have no pride in this, our nation

I always find lines like this worrying. They bring to mind Samuel Johnson's "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" and Owen's

You may have missed the fact that I was responding directly to Steve Shaw's comment: We will be buying stuff from the EU for decades, brexit regardless. We can't suddenly scrap half of our trade. We don't have deals with other potential trading partners and we are a very small fish. No king, no country, no Biggles, no empire, Nige. You have yet to come to terms. Typical Tory.

I did not bring the subject up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 03:39 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 09:10 PM
Gotcha at last, Nigel, though I wasn't even trying. You are firmly in the Iains/Woodcock swamp. Enjoy the wallow! Jayz, do I need those emojis!

As a follow on to you describing my comments as those of a 'loser'?
No double standards here then.

And on the subject of Tariff Free trade: Great. I can't wait to try that Venezuelan Prosecco, that Gambian chorizo, that Mexican bratwurst, that Chilean Camembert, that Falkland Brie, that Peruvian VW Golf, that Indonesian Chianti, that Alaskan ouzo
It may have escaped your notice that Prosecco, Chianti & ouzo are not tariff free. (apart from purchases for personal use brought in by the purchaser) these are all subject to import duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 03:41 AM

No I hadn't missed that Nigel, but you were the one who brought up belittling the country. But it doesn-t matter who said it first: let none of us claim the others are less patriotic just because they think of the term a bit differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 03:44 AM

Is it a coincidence that when defenders of the indefensible find themselves painted into corners they invariably go for the throat and turn these discussions into slanging matches - sure it is!!
Mention bribes to terrorist-linked parties - no response
Raise the question of the long term damage that has been done - no response   
Detrimental effect on industry, wages, standards of living..... the same.
A new three-way stalemate was announced yesterday regarding the Irish involvement in all this.
Liam Fox has announced that the matter of the Irish Border cannot be discussed until the E.U. trade deal is resolved
Ireland's Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said that Ireland will veto any deal that does not guarantee open inland Irish borders.
Arlene Foster, whose party, thanks to a billion pound bribe, has announced that her party will never accept the establishment of a sea border between the Six Counties and mainland Britain.
A fine mess they have got us into - eh what!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 03:48 AM

I'm very patriotic chap as it happens. Patriots like me want the very best for their country but not at the expense of other countries or the people in them. The EU is about raising the game in all its member countries, many of whom have dismal histories of war and dictatorships in the last hundred years, about maintaining democracy, free movement of citizens and human rights and allowing them to pack a punch when it comes to trade. And the very best interests of this country would be served by our staying in the EU. On the other hand, the brexiteers seem to harbour the delusion that we can return to our pre-EU greatness (a main tenet of the delusion), sweeping across the globe mopping up the trade and showing Johnny Foreigner who's boss (and keeping him out of Blighty into the bargain). There's nothing patriotic about that. It's the path to doom. Patriots don't hack out the path to doom!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 04:21 AM

Steve
Have you never noticed that to these people, "patriotism" vever extends to the Bristish working man or woman who, more often or not, ther regard as "dole-scroungers" or "militant layabouts who are ruing our country" or "tax evaders" or "malingerers and bed-blockers"...."
As for British working people having a right to a home or a job and choice of employment or a living wage or a decent education for their kids - a "Commie nightmare" to each and every one of these flag-waggers
Offshore accounts and wholesale tax evasion to the extent of £millions - that's part of the British way of life - a tradition even
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 04:22 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 03:48 AM
I'm very patriotic chap as it happens. Patriots like me want the very best for their country but not at the expense of other countries or the people in them. The EU is about raising the game in all its member countries, many of whom have dismal histories of war and dictatorships in the last hundred years, about maintaining democracy, free movement of citizens and human rights and allowing them to pack a punch when it comes to trade. And the very best interests of this country would be served by our staying in the EU. On the other hand, the brexiteers seem to harbour the delusion that we can return to our pre-EU greatness (a main tenet of the delusion), sweeping across the globe mopping up the trade and showing Johnny Foreigner who's boss (and keeping him out of Blighty into the bargain). There's nothing patriotic about that. It's the path to doom. Patriots don't hack out the path to doom!

That is your opinion of what's best for the country.
The majority of the voting public didn't agree with you.
I do not wish to be part of a 'super-state' of Europe (which is where it's heading)
I don't believe that the EU is "raising the game in all member countries" Greece in particular (but not alone) is having major problems because they are shackled to a single currency.
As for 'Democracy' there is nothing democratic about being told to vote again, where a vote goes against the wishes of the bulk of the EU.(ask the Irish)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 04:32 AM

Steve,
We will have to carry on trading in EU food for decades. With tariffs. Some of which are bloody stiff.

Do you not understand that WE choose what items we apply tariffs to, We choose how "stiff" they are, and the money goes into OUR treasury anyway.

There are special cases like sheepmeat where we need to protect our hill farmers, but we do do need to impose any tariffs on food and no-one has suggested that we will.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 04:38 AM

Yankee chicken that would be too dangerous to eat were it not for the fact that it had to be washed in chlorine.

No cooking destroys bacteria as you ought to know.
The chlorination, which is not still used anyway, reduces the risk of infection from raw meat, which causes much illness and some deaths in UK every year.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 04:47 AM

Jim,
Liam Fox has announced that the matter of the Irish Border cannot be discussed until the E.U. trade deal is resolved
Ireland's Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said that Ireland will veto any deal that does not guarantee open inland Irish borders.
Arlene Foster, whose party, thanks to a billion pound bribe, has announced that her party will never accept the establishment of a sea border between the Six Counties and mainland Britain.
A fine mess they have got us into - eh what!!

How can we discuss what kind of border to have until we know what restrictions might need to be enforced.
Britain will not put up border posts. If Ireland/EU want it they will have to supply it, man it and defend it. (An Irish gov. spokesman on R4Today said posts would be attacked by paramilitaries within a week.)

Britain would hardly miss Irish trade, but Ireland's economy depends on ours.
It is not us getting in a fine mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 04:51 AM

The lad shaw is permanently confused: And as I said previously, a Walter Mitty

and I am a biologist!)
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 11:05 AM

well-educated, harmonica-totin', hanging-in-there Labour Party member, remoaner-in-chief, retired science teacher. In any order you like. Pass the corkscrew.
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 12:53 PM

for a botanist such as meself
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 07:19 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 04:56 AM

Steve,
The EU is about raising the game in all its member countries, many of whom have dismal histories of war and dictatorships in the last hundred years,

Have you not heard that the Far Right is on the rise in Europe, and now is inside the Parliaments of many members including Germany.
Another reason why I want no part of them.

Jim,
Have you never noticed that to these people, "patriotism" vever extends to the Bristish working man or woman

You mean the people whose decision on this you people all deride, Steve calling them "feeble minded" !

All the points you people raise were raised and countered before the referendum decision.
That debate is decided.
If you have nothing new to say then you have nothing to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:02 AM

"Away from a political grouping that is increasingly ignoring it's electorate and having an agenda increasingly driven by jackboots from Germany"

Yet you're happy to be ruled by the tories that is increasingly ignoring their electorate and having an agenda increasingly driven by jackboots from establishment little Englander nationalists, alt-right brownshirts twats like Farage and assorted xenophobes and ignoramuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:02 AM

How can we discuss what kind of border to have until we know what restrictions might need to be enforced

One way would to declare we will not impose any restriction that requires a hard border. You may or may not be prepared to do that, but is perfectly possible. So there is at least one way to progress the talks that the UK could propose that would gwt the talks through the nexr hurdle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:04 AM

To be fair to Steve Shaw, he can be both a Botanist and a Biologist.

Botany is just one 'branch' of Biology.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:04 AM

"Can you be arsed to give an example of something that you are referring to?"

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:19 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:02 AM
One way would to declare we will not impose any restriction that requires a hard border. You may or may not be prepared to do that, but is perfectly possible. So there is at least one way to progress the talks that the UK could propose that would gwt the talks through the nexr hurdle.

Great, then we finally get to the end deal, and EU & UK start imposing tariffs on each others goods. Either party would be able to get around those tariffs by shipping via The Republic of Ireland.

Article 50 says that nothing can be agreed until everything is agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM

Stu,
the tories that is increasingly ignoring their electorate and having an agenda increasingly driven by jackboots from establishment little Englander nationalists, alt-right brownshirts twats like Farage and assorted xenophobes and ignoramuses.

If that was true the electorate would sack them.

"Can you be arsed to give an example of something that you are referring to?"
No.

You mean you can't because you were talking bollocks again.

DMcG,
One way would to declare we will not impose any restriction that requires a hard border.

Britain has said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:33 AM

If that was true the electorate would sack them.

You mean like in the last election when the electorate reduced them to a minority government but they clung on to power by bribing a sectarian organisation with billions of our pounds?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:44 AM

DMcG,
One way would to declare we will not impose any restriction that requires a hard border.

Britain has said that.

Has it? I must have missed that. I am aware it has said it doea not want a hard border. I was not aware it had given an untaking not to impose any regulations that would require such a border. I would be glad of a link if you had one.

Nigel: i did respond but as usual this phone is hiding the submit button with large texts

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:45 AM

"How can we discuss what kind of border to have until we know what restrictions might need to be enforced."
How can Ireland possibly agree to anything that return to the situation of a hard border and all the economic hardship and possible violence that that entails?
Nobody in either North or South wants any sort of border - the Northern governing party which is keeping the Tories in office refuse to countenance a sea border under any circumstances - Brexit has been shown to be detrimental to their economy
The EU will not "have" to do anything and to suggest that they are committed to doing anything to resolve this is Little Englandism in the extreme -
You people have never lost your Empire "Britannia Rules the Waves" mentality, have you?
THis is England's decision and it is England's mess
Ireland has Europe to trade with - Britain has just guaranteed that they can no longer rely on that
Brexit is a British fuck-up, pure and simple and the solution lies in the hands of a bunch of clowns who haven't even the nouse to hang on to a parliamentary majority
"The lad shaw is permanently confused: "
Will you never grow ip Iians or are you destined to spend your life hurling schoolyard abuse?
Jim Carroll
Yet another stalemate
Scottish Brexit minister Mike Russell has announced that if Ireland can stay in the European Trade Zone, so should Scotland have the same right

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:46 AM

This is now reaching the proportions of low farce
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:47 AM

... so i will post it tonight if the conversation hasnt moved on too much. But in summary i made the point that it was possible, but not whether it was desirable. However I believe the issues you raise will still be there even if we start trade talks immediately and that the only solution will be a hard border. As usual, time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 06:20 AM

"You mean the people whose decision on this you people all deride, "
I've said what Brexit was sold on Keith - there are no figures available on how many working people voted for Brexit and how many didn't
Disagreement doesn't come anywhere near the constant outpourings of contempt on working people from the Tories
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM

"The majority of the voting public didn't agree with you."

38% is not a majority. I know I'm only a biologist but my maths seems better than yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM

"You mean you can't because you were talking bollocks again."

No, because debating with you good sir is like sticking forks in one's legs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:37 AM

I don't think I've ever used the expression "feeble-minded," Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:41 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM
"The majority of the voting public didn't agree with you."
38% is not a majority. I know I'm only a biologist but my maths seems better than yours.

Nope, either your maths, or your use of English is slipping.
"The voting public" means the public that vote.
38% is not a majority of the available electorate.
52% is a majority of the voting public.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:52 AM

DMcG,
Britain has said that.
Has it? I must have missed that. I am aware it has said it doea not want a hard border. I was not aware it had given an untaking not to impose any regulations that would require such a border. I would be glad of a link if you had one.

It has, and here is confirmation today from a Labour MP.
"We're not the ones who are going to be putting up the physical border. If it ends up with a no deal, we won't be putting up the border, they'll have to pay for it because it doesn't need to happen."
"If it ends up with a no deal, we won't be putting up the border, they'll have to pay for it because it doesn't need to happen."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:52 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:45 AM
"How can we discuss what kind of border to have until we know what restrictions might need to be enforced."
How can Ireland possibly agree to anything that return to the situation of a hard border and all the economic hardship and possible violence that that entails?

Unfortunately Ireland's agreement doesn't seem to be required. The (southern) Irish government have already allowed the EU to negotiate on their behalf. And the EU will go for whatever benefits the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:53 AM

Corrected link,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-42137597

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:57 AM

New information for us all to consider: Brexit: Irish border cannot be settled until trade deal agreed, says Fox

I doubt many Brexiteers gave the Irish border much thought when they voted, it wasn't discussed very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:58 AM

Stu,
No, because debating with you good sir is like sticking forks in one's legs.

I did not ask for a debate, I asked for ONE example of what you claimed and you could not give it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:59 AM

Thanks, Keith, but I don't think that says we will not introduce regulations that require a hard border. But why not ask Nigel if that's what he thinks it says, because he was not happy with when I suggested such a commitment it might be a possibility?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 08:02 AM

Steve, I am sorry.
It was not you but Backwoodsman who referred to Leave voters as "feeble-minded."

You still seem to support his views though. Will you state now that you do not?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 08:09 AM

DMcG,
Thanks, Keith, but I don't think that says we will not introduce regulations that require a hard border.

Britain says it does not want a hard border so it will not introduce regulations that would require one.

"Ireland should take Theresa May “at her word” when she says the UK Government does not want a post-Brexit hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, a former Taoiseach has said."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/27/take-theresa-may-word-post-brexit-irish-border-issue-former/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 08:14 AM

I doubt many Brexiteers gave the Irish border much thought when they voted, it wasn't discussed very much

All can about that is that it was mentioned here by, for example, McGrath of Harlow on 2 June 2016 and yours truly on 9th July 2016 where we said we would be in the position we are now.

All dismissed out of hand becauae the border would not be a problwm, naturally.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 08:15 AM

Sorry, june for both.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 08:20 AM

Keith
Over a year ago a poll indicated that over one million Brexiters had changed their minds and now wished to remain
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/british-people-changed-minds-brexit-second-referendum-poll-finds-a7795591.html
Stop avoiding the point - Brexit is a glorious mess.
"Unfortunately Ireland's agreement doesn't seem to be required"
IRELAND CAN BLOCK BREXIT
SCotland is arguing that it can do the same
An utter mess that stands to break up the UK - as prophesied
It also stands to restart the war, if your Little Englander arrogance is typical
But never mind - there's another royal wedding on the way to act as a diversion - isn't there always!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 08:43 AM

I don't doubt Teresa May does not want a hard border. But no-one has come up with a plausible alternative. So if we follow Liam Fox or allow the talks to collapse, we will end up with a hard border, I predict. "Wanting" is nothing like enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 08:44 AM

Jim,
I've said what Brexit was sold on Keith - there are no figures available on how many working people voted for Brexit and how many didn't

Steve was clear that it was the "plebs."
"As long as the plebs swallowed it hook, line and sinker and voted leave."

Re. your link, despite the headline the survey did not find that.
The sub heading is more correct, "The majority of people would back a referendum on the terms of the the UK's departure from the EU, a Survation poll found"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 08:51 AM

DMcG, she said more than just not wanting it.

Same link,
Mrs May said in her Florence speech in September that the UK “will not accept any physical infrastructure at the border” between Northern Ireland and the Republic.


Obviously we have no power to stop EU erecting it on their side.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Martin
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 09:00 AM

Stikes me ROI is holding the trump card here - they do not want hard border & the EU must listen to them, ROI could stop the UK Brexiting & I sincerely hope that they do!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 09:05 AM

From: Jim Martin - PM
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 09:00 AM
Stikes me ROI is holding the trump card here - they do not want hard border & the EU must listen to them, ROI could stop the UK Brexiting & I sincerely hope that they do!

As Jim Carroll's recent link shows, Ireland can block the Brexit talks. This is not the same as blocking Brexit.

The UK is leaving the EU, all blocking the talks will do is ensure that it is a 'hard' Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 09:07 AM

Ah, but what is physical? ANPR? Drones managed from a fixed headquarters?

Then does a hard border have to be physical at all? It could exist in terms of paperwork and import/export files that have to be submitted for every crossing..

To me a hard border is any system at all in which every movement of goods and/or people is monitored. It is not just border posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM

"Steve was clear that it was the "plebs."
As much as I usually agree with Steve on this subject, he has as much ida as you and I have of the social structure of the vote
The 'plebs' were sold the vote on the basis that if immigration wasn't stopped their jobs would continue to be at risk - the old racist card made infamous by Enoch Powell
It is a moot point whether, given she shambolic fiasco now entertaining us all and the confirmation by the Government itself that Brexit will lower standards of living and have an adverse effect on the economy for at least a decade, the people who originally voted for Brexit would do so again
"Ireland can block the Brexit talks. This is not the same as blocking Brexit."
At this stage, it seems to add up to the same thing
"The UK is leaving the EU, all blocking the talks will do is ensure that it is a 'hard' Brexit."
Another moot point given that there are now calls for a referendum before everything is finalised
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 09:37 AM

There is a bit of sleight of hand by the way on this idea that we don't have a border but the EU do.

Imagine the situation that some crime has been committed in NI and the criminals escaped. Do you think we would want to know if they have crossed the border or not? Would you be content if the EU declined to tell us because it is "their hard border"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 09:51 AM

"Britain says it does not want a hard border so it will not introduce regulations that would require one."

Britain said that the deficit would be paid off by 2015 but it wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 09:58 AM

DMcG, a camera is physical infrastructure and drones could perform no useful border function.

There is already a currency border and a VAT border, but invisible.
We do not need a visible border and UK will not make one.

Do you think we would want to know if they have crossed the border or not?

Of course, as we do now with a soft, invisible border.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 09:58 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 09:37 AM
There is a bit of sleight of hand by the way on this idea that we don't have a border but the EU do.
Imagine the situation that some crime has been committed in NI and the criminals escaped. Do you think we would want to know if they have crossed the border or not? Would you be content if the EU declined to tell us because it is "their hard border"?

The EU, generally, doesn't have internal borders. This is the Schengen Area.
UK & Ireland are not parts of the Schengen Area.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 10:24 AM

True, Nigel but i was referring to Keith's (and others elsewhere) idea that we set up a soft border but the EU immediately builds a hard one alongside. I foresee problems and gave one example.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 10:27 AM

Jim, if I did say that (I don't remember), I was being sarcastic: it wasn't me calling people plebs, it was me characterising the leavers as treating people like gullible plebs. I can be a bit subtle for some of these eejits, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 10:29 AM

Thanks Keith. So to be clear you say May has said no cameras?

I mentioned those and drones, by the way, because we proposed them...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 11:09 AM

"it wasn't me calling people plebs, "
Didn't believe you did for a minute Steve, but Keith appears to believe you did and thanks that your view makes a point he is unable to make otherwise (any port in a sinking ship - to mix metaphors)
"We do not need a visible border and UK will not make one."
Whose word do we have for that and what's their track record on getting things right and keeping promises - would you buy a used car from them or be happy if your sister married one??
These people are lying crooks whose existence is bases on fooling all of the people all of the time.
That's what Parliamentary Democracy is nowadays, if it wasn't always
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 11:10 AM

Sorry, I may have misremembered that. I apologise if I confused discussion with the final proposal.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 11:29 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 10:27 AM
Jim, if I did say that (I don't remember), I was being sarcastic: it wasn't me calling people plebs, it was me characterising the leavers as treating people like gullible plebs. I can be a bit subtle for some of these eejits, you know.
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:48 PM
So, Nige, you accepted the lie propagated by your side. And didn't say anything. Well, at least I don't recall you saying anything. But why would you care? As long as the plebs swallowed it hook, line and sinker and voted leave. What else mattered, Nige?

Yes, you did make that statement.
Just your usual tactic of changing your mind, or blaming others for not understanding what you meant, or just claiming that it was just 'whimsy', or sarcasm.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 12:14 PM

Steve, is Backwoodsman right to keep calling them "feeble-minded?"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 12:22 PM

Jim,
"We do not need a visible border and UK will not make one."
Whose word do we have for that ?

The Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland stated in her internationally reported Florence speech to an audience of EU leaders in September that the UK "will not accept any physical infrastructure at the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic."

Politicians do lie, but if they are caught in a lie they have to resign from office.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 01:22 PM

A perfect example of feeble-mindedness (and childishness, for that matter), is the person who constantly tries to set 'traps' for others, but does in a way that makes it blindingly obvious what the game is. Subtlety really isn't your suit is it, Prof?

It's also extremely feeble-minded to ask one person to justify or agree with something said by another person. Whether Steve, or anyone else, agrees with my view or not makes not the faintest iota of difference to that view, so trying to trap him that way is just...feeble-minded. Don't waste your time trying to catch him out, Professor, you're not in his league intellectually.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 01:40 PM

"Politicians do lie, but if they are caught in a lie they have to resign from office."
You are joking of course
Parliament would have gone out of existence centuries ago had that been the case
You now have three contradictory positions Britain and North and Southern Ireland.
How is that (politician's) promise going to be honoured
How stupid can you get?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 01:51 PM

Politicians do lie, but if they are caught in a lie they have to resign from office.

On the platet,Zog, perhaps.

Now there's tRUMP & there was Thatcher.....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 01:55 PM

" they have to resign from office."
The threat of Maggie May resigning is nearly as risible as your suggestion that politicians don't like in public
I haven't the slightest doubt that as soon as it's safe to do so, her own party will drop her as quickly as they would a warm turd - is is well known that she is considered a liability that is only kept in office to avoid yet another embarrassment (and, as it stands at present, any replacement would be as bad, if not worse than she is).
You seem not to realise the seriousness of the border issue - It could set the Peace Process back forty years and direct rule from London stands to light the match to a massive conflagration
Feckin' right-wing British politicians - drown them all in the nearest bucket, I say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 03:27 PM

Why has your government NOT decided how close they intend to remain with the European Union? Its 'Big been' awhile.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 03:43 PM

That's the question the whole of the 48% and, I'd guess, a significant proportion of the 52% (those who are actually capable of working 'stuff' out) are asking too, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 03:45 PM

The Brexit impact documents are back in play. It's all go, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 03:47 PM

Sorry, pressed 'Go' a bit too soon...

...but the feeble-minded element seem happy just to think about what to call their soon-to-arrive pet unicorn, whilst the bunch of incompetent fuckwits on our 'negotiation' team chug along towards the cliff-edge.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 04:58 PM

Do I think John's right to call them feeble-minded? Why are you asking me that? I never used the expression! I make up my own pejoratives! Of course he's right! John's right about everything all the time! Same as me, Jim, Dave, Raggytash and Greg! We cannot be wrong! We speaketh ex cathedra! And you are always wrong! Nigel is always wrong! Iains is always wrong!

Next bloody silly question, please, Keith...

As for poor, poor Nigel:

Steve sez:

"So, Nige, you accepted the lie propagated by your side. And didn't say anything. Well, at least I don't recall you saying anything. But why would you care? As long as the plebs swallowed it hook, line and sinker and voted leave. What else mattered, Nige?"

Nigel sez:

"Yes, you did make that statement."

Steve sez:

Yes, Nigel, I certainly did!

But Nigel then unfortunately sez:

"Just your usual tactic of changing your mind, or blaming others for not understanding what you meant, or just claiming that it was just 'whimsy', or sarcasm."

But. Nigel darling, you must be the only person on this planet (bar one or two I happen to know who take things so literally that they have been placed on the autism spectrum) who would take that quote to mean that it's me calling people plebs. Nigel, that is me mockingly mimicking the voices of leave campaigners. You, your side, read it again, geddit? The lie propagated by your side, you and your lying brexit mates, which you thought the plebs would swallow. You thought they were plebs, not me, 'twas you and your disreputable, lying leave side. You've defended the people who told those lies and you've defended the result. As a matter of fact I hold no candle for the remain side either, who equally took people for fools. I've castigated both sides again and again on this forum. It was never me taking people for suckers. It was always me railing against the lying, undemocratic bastards on both sides in the campaign. So just go and take a running jump, Nigel, and try to make an honest man of yourself for a change. I'm as straight as a die. If you want to behold a weasly, devious stalker with an agenda, look to yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:09 PM

We need to see those brexit documents, in full. Not redacted, not in any way edited, not in part. It's our democratic right. You brexiteers who were so desperate to take back control should insist that these weasels release the embarrassing information that we have the right to know. Not that they continue to control us by withholding information "for tactIcal reasons" that should be freely available.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:19 PM

One day there will be an old documentary filmed in obsolete SUHD format describing the rise and fall of the global fuckwits.

Tiny Tim will ask "What did you do in the fuckwit war Daddy?"

Even the passage of time will not completely sort out exactly who all the fuckwits were and where they are currently hiding. There will be fuck wit theories about how they emerge every 5 cycles of the 17 year locust, depending on the solar maximum that decade.

Its a fine mess we have gotten into. Yeah we did it ourselves    but Russia helped.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:58 PM

I thought it was katydids, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:38 PM

Gosh, been away all day today and I nearly missed this one!

From: Nige Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:41 AM

Re Steve Shaw, 27 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM
Sez Nige: "The majority of the voting public didn't agree with you."

Sez Steve: "38% is not a majority. I know I'm only a biologist but my maths seems better than yours."

Sez Nige again (with his rude hat on): "Nope, either your maths, or your use of English is slipping.
"The voting public" means the public that vote.
38% is not a majority of the available electorate.
52% is a majority of the voting public."

Yebbut Nige, however you wish to interpret the rather vague phrase "the voting public," and we may want to differ on that (but hey), there's a very obstinate fact afoot here. Just over one-third of the sentient beings of this nation are guaranteed, at least on the day of the vote, to have disagreed with me. On that very day, just under one-third definitely agreed with me. On that very same day, just over one-quarter of them didn't vote. Neither you nor I know why they didn't vote, the only certainty being that there were multifarious reasons for it. The commonest brexiteer interpretation I've heard here (mostly from two thankfully erstwhile colleagues of ours) is that it's all their bloody fault if they couldn't be arsed to vote and they don't deserve any further say (isn't democracy wonderful when it can be so easily circumscribed by any old Tory?) Thing is, Nige, we don't know, do we? There were the genuinely undecided, the fence-sitters, the serial mind-changers, the disgusteds of Tunbridge Wells who were pissed off by the serial lying from both sides, the opposers of referendums on principle, oh, and a few lazy arses and a few political illiterati. Care to put figures on that lot, Nige? Bottom line: all you can claim with any confidence for your side is just over one-third of the electorate (a much clearer term than "voting public," n'est-ce pas?). Just remember that the next time you hear your fellow toe-rags rattling on about "the people having spoken" and all the rest of that confounded bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 02:53 AM

Wow! Couldn't have put it better myself, Steve!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 03:00 AM

Government refusing to release new information that might prompt some to people change their minds: Brexit files ? the truth is not in there

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 03:43 AM

You thought they were plebs, not me,
Nope, I've never used such terms about them. Or was that sarcasm, whimsy, or just lying?
So just go and take a running jump, Nigel, and try to make an honest man of yourself for a change. I'm as straight as a die.
Is that last quote a la Tony Blair "I'm a pretty straight kinda guy"? Or are you using 'die' as in the twisting tool used to make a screw thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 03:56 AM

Yebbut Nige, however you wish to interpret the rather vague phrase "the voting public," and we may want to differ on that (but hey), there's a very obstinate fact afoot here. Just over one-third of the sentient beings of this nation are guaranteed, at least on the day of the vote, to have disagreed with me. On that very day, just under one-third definitely agreed with me. On that very same day, just over one-quarter of them didn't vote. Neither you nor I know why they didn't vote, the only certainty being that there were multifarious reasons for it. The commonest brexiteer interpretation I've heard here (mostly from two thankfully erstwhile colleagues of ours) is that it's all their bloody fault if they couldn't be arsed to vote and they don't deserve any further say (isn't democracy wonderful when it can be so easily circumscribed by any old Tory?) Thing is, Nige, we don't know, do we? There were the genuinely undecided, the fence-sitters, the serial mind-changers, the disgusteds of Tunbridge Wells who were pissed off by the serial lying from both sides, the opposers of referendums on principle, oh, and a few lazy arses and a few political illiterati. Care to put figures on that lot, Nige? Bottom line: all you can claim with any confidence for your side is just over one-third of the electorate (a much clearer term than "voting public," n'est-ce pas?). Just remember that the next time you hear your fellow toe-rags rattling on about "the people having spoken" and all the rest of that confounded bullshit.
Use your own definitions of words how you will:

Just over one-third of the sentient beings of this nation are guaranteed, at least on the day of the vote, to have disagreed with me. On that very day, just under one-third definitely agreed with me. On that very same day, just over one-quarter of them didn't vote.
In your attempt to re-cast the definition you have, seemingly, labelled all under 18s as non-sentient. Surely you can make a better attempt than that.

As for those who didn't vote, their views weren't given (for whatever reason) and so can't be taken into account.
Just over one third of those who used their vote voted 'Leave'. A lower percentage voted 'Remain'. The purpose of the referendum was to find what the majority view was. This majority of those who voted was Leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 04:15 AM

Jim,
"Politicians do lie, but if they are caught in a lie they have to resign from office."
You are joking of course

No. It is a fact.

How is that (politician's) promise going to be honoured

By UK not constructing any infrastructure at the border whatever the outcome of negotiations, as promised.
Eire claims to want that too, but they have little influence over the outcome.
EU is threatening a hard border just because they know we do not want that.

Donuel,
Why has your government NOT decided how close they intend to remain with the European Union? Its 'Big been' awhile.

Because it is not up to us. We have been clear all along we want to be as close as ever and for free trade to continue, but they can not allow our leaving to be successful or others might follow.
They also need to extract money from us so have to make threats like the border issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 04:31 AM

Steve and Backwoodsman, what is wrong in asking if two people agree on something?
Why is it so hard to reply?

I am sure I have been asked if I agree with something someone else has posted.

Steve was adamant that although he disparagingly referred to leavers as "Plebs" he did not mean it.
BWM calls them "feeble-minded" and stands by it.
You both usually argue from the same position so it is reasonable to ask if you agree on that.

So, do you?
Just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 04:42 AM

Lads - Remember the hoops and stop jumping!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 04:47 AM

"You both usually argue from the same position so it is reasonable to ask if you agree on that."
What has whether two people agree wiuth each other got to do with "Post Brexit" Keith
Just asking
Divide and still lose the argument, in your case
"No. It is a fact."
You've just admitted that politicians lie, if you know that they must have been caught out
When was the last time one of them resigned for lying?
Boris the Braindead lied about the activities of a British citizen in Iran - doing so has probably extended her jail sentence
When can we expect his resignation?
The EU is noth threatening a hard border - you are lying
Can we now expect your resignation?
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 05:11 AM

Jim, you were happy to say that you disagreed with Steve on the Plebs thing before he said he disagreed with it too.

Saying yes or no would not have put anyone in a trap! Whatever are you people so afraid of?
Just say what you think.
If you are afraid to do that just leave it but do not compose tedious declarations about why you won't.
You are pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 05:56 AM

This discussion is about Brexit Keith - who agrees with whom is a diversion on your part in order not to face the fact the Bexit has proved an utter disaster for the British people and their nearest neighbours and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future
Why don't you join your running-mate Nigel's campaign to blame the electorate for that shambles - he seems a lot beter at creating diversions than you are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:06 AM

"In your attempt to re-cast the definition you have, seemingly, labelled all under 18s as non-sentient. Surely you can make a better attempt than that."

Indeed I could have. "Sentient" was a bad choice and my excuse was a very long and knackering day with 150 miles driving mostly in the dark in horrendous weather conditions, but you don't want to hear that. But the irony of your rightly drawing that to my attention is that, if we include all those sentient under-18s, the brexiteers' "people have spoken" 38% mantra looks far sicker still. It's actually 38% sentient over-18s less all the sentient under-18s, a poignant thought when you consider that they are the very people you've shafted the most. I should think that "the people have spoken" probably accounts for around 20% or maybe a bit more of the country's actual sentient beings. Perhaps next time I hear someone saying me that " the people have spoken" I'll reply saying but ah, only one fifth of the SENTIENT people have spoken! Of course, my maths is predicated on no arbitrary lower age limit having been set for qualification as "sentient." Needless to say, I know a good few five-year-olds with as much sense as some who are old enough to vote, and they probably possess just as much political knowledge (none, in other words).

Yes, Nigel, you didn't actually utter the word "plebs" but you did support the leave campaign that treated the people of this country like ignorant plebs, like suckers for their xenophobic lies, and you're still defending the lying toads here now. I can say with hand on heart that I had no truck (or bus even) with either side at the time, regarding the whole thing as skewed, disreputable and undemocratic. Show me any post of yours from before June 2016 that criticised the lies of the leave side and I'll give you a chocolate Hobnob.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:07 AM

I watch many discussion programmes on Radio and TV.
It is quite normal for participants to be asked if they agree on things.

It is a reasonable question in any discussion. You do not have to answer but again, what are you people so afraid of?
Just say what you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:12 AM

. I can say with hand on heart that I had no truck (or bus even) with either side at the time, regarding the whole thing as skewed, disreputable and undemocratic.

I remember you discussing it here and supporting the Remain side.
You never once described the debate as "skewed, disreputable and undemocratic" or anything like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM

"Jim, you were happy to say that you disagreed with Steve on the Plebs thing before he said he disagreed with it too."

Well Jim was a bit hasty there and promptly put that right. When someone backtracks on these forums it's bloody bad form to keep pursuing it. The bone has no more meat on it, Keith. And there is no reason on earth why I should have had to explain myself. I did not disagree with myself, nor did I correct myself. I clarified it, as if it needed clarifying, for the benefit of the nitpickers like you and Nigel who appear not to be able to understand nuance. Jim had the good grace to resolve the thing extremely quickly. You carp on like a pair of hyenas who think they've found a juicy carcass but who are actually gnawing away on a rusty old bucket.

As for not answering your question, you had your answer. A silly answer to a silly question. Move on, Keith. You're looking stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:23 AM

I support remaining in the EU, Keith. I did not join a faction, speak up for them, stick their posters up, go to their rallies or anything else. I castigated both sides. So don't be silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:27 AM

THis has now become a two-hander exercise in diverting the subject from the Brexit nause-up to who said what when
Keith is taking the right flank (where else) aand Nige is happily re-directing the blame to those who were taken in by politicians lies
Let's all move on eh and leave them to think up something else to discuss?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:28 AM

Steve,
As for not answering your question, you had your answer. A silly answer

Yes it was silly.
Why will you not tell us if you agree with BWM on Leavers being feeble minded?
What are you afraid of. You could have given a sensible answer many times over instead of all the rambling and implausible justifications for not answering.

. I can say with hand on heart that I had no truck (or bus even) with either side at the time, regarding the whole thing as skewed, disreputable and undemocratic

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:18 AM
Come on, fellow Brits of the more sane persuasion. Get up, vote early, vote often, VOTE IN!! ??

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:29 AM

" Bexit has proved an utter disaster for the British people and their nearest neighbours"

Were you studying the cat's entrails to come by this bit of divination?

An event has to come to pass before outcomes can be known. Perhaps you inhabit an alternative reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:06 AM

"In your attempt to re-cast the definition you have, seemingly, labelled all under 18s as non-sentient. Surely you can make a better attempt than that."

Indeed I could have. "Sentient" was a bad choice and my excuse was a very long and knackering day with 150 miles driving mostly in the dark in horrendous weather conditions, but you don't want to hear that. But the irony of your rightly drawing that to my attention is that, if we include all those sentient under-18s, the brexiteers' "people have spoken" 38% mantra looks far sicker still. It's actually 38% sentient over-18s less all the sentient under-18s, a poignant thought when you consider that they are the very people you've shafted the most. I should think that "the people have spoken" probably accounts for around 20% or maybe a bit more of the country's actual sentient beings. Perhaps next time I hear someone saying me that " the people have spoken" I'll reply saying but ah, only one fifth of the SENTIENT people have spoken! Of course, my maths is predicated on no arbitrary lower age limit having been set for qualification as "sentient." Needless to say, I know a good few five-year-olds with as much sense as some who are old enough to vote, and they probably possess just as much political knowledge (none, in other words).

No matter how you attempt to revise the meanings of the terms used, to reduce the percentage favouring Brexit, the percentage favouring Leave will always be lower, and always in the relationship 52:48

You claim that we do not understand 'nuance'. There would be no need if you understood 'straight talking'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:39 AM

Ahhh, the mewling of our Little Englander compatriots continues unabated.

Meanwhile, confirming what we all knew, xenophobes unite under the Brexit banners (link maker won't work):
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-oecd-economic-forecast-paris-gdp-eu-european-union-a8079586.html


Things are looking up in the cats entrails business, everyone's making predictions: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-oecd-economic-forecast-paris-gdp-eu-european-union-a8079586.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:42 AM

So now all Leavers are xenophobes!
Anyone else agree with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:54 AM

Who said that everyone who voted leave is a xexophobe, Keith? I cannot see such an assertion but I may be missing it. Can you link to it please?

Although people who voted for brexit are more likely to be racist.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 07:03 AM

"So now all Leavers are xenophobes!"

READ THE ARTICLE.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 07:09 AM

"Things are looking up in the cats entrails business, everyone's making predictions:"

Yes and you must remember that many political predictions made recently have been a total joke and lost all contact with reality.

    Brexiteers won the referendum
    Trump was elected President.

How unpalatable that must be to some. Like the snowflakes on the Trump thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 07:22 AM

I refer to my post of 27 Nov 17 - 01:22 PM.
The subject of that post continues with his trolling. Nothing further needs to be said. My advice is to ignore the plonker.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 07:25 AM

"Come on, fellow Brits of the more sane persuasion. Get up, vote early, vote often, VOTE IN!! "

"I can say with hand on heart that I had no truck (or bus even) with either side at the time, regarding the whole thing as skewed, disreputable and undemocratic."

Very simple, Keith. I wanted this country to stay in the EU. I was not in any faction, tribe, party, lobby group, official campaign, pressure group, association, affiliation, mob, outfit, organisation, troupe, union, fraternity, league or merry band of buggered supporting remain. Heinously, I decided to vote because I wanted to remain an EU citizen and would never have forgiven myself had it been lost by one vote. Am I getting through that solid, armour-plated, dense, thick, content-free skull of yours yet? In very, very, VERY plain English: I WANTED TO STAY IN THE EU DESPITE NOT BEING A MEMBER OF ANY LEAVE CAMPAIGN AND I DECIDED TO VOTE, AS SUCH ENCOURAGING ANYONE LISTENING ON MUDCAT (WHO WAS BOTH SENTIENT AND OLD ENOUGH) TO VOTE THE SAME WAY. Now just knock it off, you confounded idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 07:27 AM

Don't feed the troll.....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 07:28 AM

You're right, John (you always are, as I told Keef yesterday). As you can see from the timings, I posted too soon to take your sage advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 07:30 AM

A lot of the stuff poated recently seems to losing sight of of what is happening now to Brexit. Anyone care to comment on whether they think there is substance to the rumour reported by the BBC that some of the impact papers are being held back because they are "embarrassingly thin'?1

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 07:44 AM

From The Guardian
David Davis has been told he could be in contempt of parliament after his department heavily edited government analyses on the impact of Brexit on 58 industrial sectors before handing them to a select committee.

Opposition MPs accused the Brexit secretary of leaving out "politically embarrassing" information after he refused to include anything deemed to be market sensitive or that he said could damage the UK's negotiations with the EU27.

Davis said he was withholding the information because he had "received no assurances from the [Brexit] committee regarding how any information passed will be used". But that triggered a furious reaction from MPs on the Brexit select committee who were supposed to be handed over the reports after a unanimous and binding vote of MPs. One option, they said, is to trigger contempt proceedings against the cabinet minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 07:48 AM

I made that last post as a straight quote, with no comment.
Doubtless people will view it in different ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 07:56 AM

We need to know, and have the right to know, the bad things that experts are predicting. We don't pay these bastards to keep embarrassing information from us. Let's take back control!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 08:04 AM

You can, of course, read the whole debate in Hansard as usual. My reading of the motion is that Davis and co are not entitled to redact anything but the select committee on reciept of the whole will decide what should and what should not be redacted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 08:25 AM

"Like the snowflakes on the Trump thread!"

Very poor. Utterly lacking wit (or wits, one supposes). Cue: Standards are slipping. Barrels are being scraped. etc etc We deserve a better quality of argumentative right winger on this forum rather than a prosaic brownshirt dullard like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 09:08 AM

Anyone care to comment on whether they think there is substance to the rumour

Who knows? Not me anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM

Quite right, Keith, none of us know.

Perhaps I should have asked whether people thought it plausible some documents are withheld because they are so thin as Laura K's unnamed source claimed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 09:36 AM

"Like the snowflakes on the Trump thread!"

Anyone using the term "snowflakes" is ipso facto an idiot. Move along, nothing to see here.....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 09:57 AM

"An event has to come to pass before outcomes can be known."
The immediate effect of Brexit was a sharp rise in racist incidents - didn't have to ask my cat, it was a reported fact
Since then, things have gone from bad to worse, with a destabilised economy and predictions that things will not steady up for at lesst a decade.
The General election fiasco led to the Government of the day having to do a deal with a political party with terrorist connections and bung them £1 billion of the taxpayers money in order to give them a workable majority.
THe PEACE PROCESS has been put on hold and concerns about the border and the NI economy have destabilized the Six Counties
Those are the immediate effects - those that might happen don't bear thinking about
Most of this information is freely available without anybody having to cut their cat up.
Now - without the usual attempts to bullshit and talk down - which of these do you have problems with?
I haven't bothered listing the pluses like the factt that Brexit has exposed our glorious leaders as the clowns they really are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 10:00 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 07:56 AM
We need to know, and have the right to know, the bad things that experts are predicting. We don't pay these bastards to keep embarrassing information from us. Let's take back control!

I don't think there was ever the intention of giving you the details. Parliament may have a 'right to know'.
David Davis does not even seem to trust the Brexit Committee:

Davis said he was withholding the information because he had "received no assurances from the [Brexit] committee regarding how any information passed will be used".

Of course, if the Committee had given assurances that the details wouldn't be shared with the media, or with the EU, maybe they'd have got the full details.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 10:48 AM

"Just say what you think"

Absolutely bloody priceless coming from the man who invariably claims that he didn't say it, it was somebody else.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 11:47 AM

"We deserve a better quality of argumentative right winger on this forum rather than a prosaic brownshirt dullard like this."

You deserve nothing.
You lost.
REMEMBER?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 12:25 PM

the man who invariably claims that he didn't say it,

I have said that, but only when it was true.
I had quoted someone giving the quote and the link.

Everything I have said here is from me, so what is your point Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 12:36 PM

"You deserve nothing.
You lost.
REMEMBER?"

Haha, the cruisin' for a bruisin' brainless hubris-stricken brexiteer mantra! We are still here, us forty-eight percenters, pal. We "deserve" precisely the same as you. That includes you not forgetting that we live in a democracy and not trying to sideline us. Therein lies the path to totalitarianism. Brownshirt? Hmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 12:55 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvfU59Kj8RQ

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 01:21 PM

"You lost.REMEMBER?"
Yup - how can anybbody win against such POWERFUL ERUDITION
Can I presume you are not going to respond to my answer to your equally mindless "cat's entrails comment?
Didn't think your erudition stretched that far - not for a minute
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 02:04 PM

Although it sometimes feels I am running a one man campaign to promote "Hansard" todays do make interesting reading and I would suggest anyone commenting without reading it could be on shaky grounds.

There at least three separate processes under way trying determine what happens next and the likely winner is far from clear at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 03:36 PM

As mad as a hatter! Must be a remainder/remoaner.
Congratulations to Guido for unmasking this nutty professor.

Our Vietnam????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 05:08 PM

He mirrors the professor, resorts to the extreme right-wing Guido Fawkes - then calls a perfectly sane academic "barking mad." It's been a day of irony on this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 05:10 PM

Sorry, not "barking mad." "As mad as a hatter." Same difference!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:31 PM

Yeah, but at least the hatter has an excuse- mercury poisoning. What's HIS excuse?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:36 PM

What's yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 06:53 PM

A pint of Doom, since you're asking..

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 04:52 AM

He mirrors the professor, resorts to the extreme right-wing Guido Fawkes

If you are claiming that I have ever used far right sources, you lie.
All your attacks on me are lies.
Why do you need to do it Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM

Did you not notice who the right wing tosser writing the article in the link was having a go at, Keith?

Conor Gearty, professor of human rights law at the London School of Economics

Not everything is about you and there are some real professors out there!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 05:12 AM

Guido Fawkes is not an "extreme Right Wing site" anyway.

Wiki,
In 2005, Staines's blog was voted the best in the Political Commentary category of The Backbencher Political Weblog Awards, run by The Guardian.

He was named at number 36 in the "Top 50 newsmakers of 2006" in The Independent,[37] for his blog, and his role in the Prescott scandal in particular. In 2011 GQ ranked him and co-author Harry Cole jointly at number 28 in the magazine's list of the 100 Most Influential Men in Britain

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 05:15 AM

everything is about you

When it is directed at "the professor" it is, and if you actually read Steve properly he was not referring to "Conor Gearty, professor of human rights law at the London School of Economics."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 05:32 AM

"Guido Fawkes is not an "extreme Right Wing site" anyway.

Wiki,
In 2005, Staines's blog was voted the best in the Political Commentary category of The Backbencher Political Weblog Awards, run by The Guardian.

He was named at number 36 in the "Top 50 newsmakers of 2006" in The Independent,[37] for his blog, and his role in the Prescott scandal in particular. In 2011 GQ ranked him and co-author Harry Cole jointly at number 28 in the magazine's list of the 100 Most Influential Men in Britain"

Gosh, Keith is the Professor of Non Sequiturs at the University of Delusion!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 05:35 AM

I don't recall Steve addressing you as 'the professor' but I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong.

Guido is still a right wing tosser either way.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 05:46 AM

He mirrors the professor, resorts to the extreme right-wing Guido Fawkes - then calls a perfectly sane academic "barking mad."

Two things. That was a response to a post from Iains that appears to be no longer here. The sentence is a list of three items, the first two separated, correctly, by a comma. I neither wrote "He mirrors the professor by resorting to an extreme right-wing website...", nor did I intend it to mean that. Had that been the intended meaning, the sentence quoted above would have been highly ungrammatical. I could spend half my time here correcting deliberate misreading of posts. Ah well.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 02:04 PM
Although it sometimes feels I am running a one man campaign to promote "Hansard" todays do make interesting reading and I would suggest anyone commenting without reading it could be on shaky grounds.
There at least three separate processes under way trying determine what happens next and the likely winner is far from clear at this time.

I'm getting a mixed message here:
Line one, "read Hansard to shore up your comments".
Line two, "even if you've read Hansard you won't have been able to shore up your comments"

In these circumstances reading Hansard doesn't appear to offer any help.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 06:25 AM

On the 'grammar' thread Steve Shaw says: When I look back at some of my posts, I see that I'm guilty of constructing somewhat elaborate and tortuous sentences at times. They might not contain actual mistakes but they give the reader too much mental processing to do. As has been well said, it's all about communicating ideas clearly.

Does this mean he's finally realised that nuance, whimsy, and sarcasm do not make themselves easily understood in this medium, and will he try to avoid them in future?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 06:27 AM

I don't think there is a mixed message, Nigel. Hansard records the debate so it covers all the different points of view. The press is likely to pick out a choice phrase or two. I am just giving people warning that in this debate it is worth being extra careful not to be misled over what the view of Parliament is because at least three different positions are in play. One is an MP acting as is their right to seek a declaration of contempt....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 06:31 AM

No, Nigel. It means precisely what I said. As I've detected that you can, in fact, write quite decent English, I've concluded that your "inability" to perceive whimsy, sarcasm and nuance is a sad product of various deficiencies in your personality. But I won't dwell. Let's do brexit. From go whistle to fifty billion. I rarely credit Farage with anything, but that wasn't half bad!

Now for that border...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 06:31 AM

(Large message issue)

... the second is for Ben and Davis to meet to decide whether an agreement can be reached that the documents have or have not been delivered and the third is that IDS and co are seeking a new motion to supercede the one where contempt could arise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 08:23 AM

Guido Fawkes is not an "extreme Right Wing site" anyway.

You should know by now Keith that when a source presents information or opinion that contradicts that of the die-hard ideologues they reflexively attack the source rather than the content. Putting labels on it and calling it names is their preferred method of attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 08:30 AM

Latest Brexit fiasco - the Government has announced a 'deal' to pay Europe £50 billion as an exit fee
Barnier says no deal had been finalised.
Lorra-lorra money, one way o t'other and a leap from the £2220 billion Tery the Mayfly promised not so long ago.
"Guido Fawkes is not an "extreme Right Wing site" anyway."
The Fawkes site is a right wing site which excels itself in peddling conspiracy theories - it originated in that doyen of free speech and democracy, The Sun on Sunday.
A self description reads "Staines began the "Guido Fawkes Blog of plots, rumours and conspiracy". The name is an alternative of Guy Fawkes, and continues that symbolism with the masthead slogan "tittle tattle, gossip and rumours about Westminster's Mother of Parliaments."
Someone to be taken very, very seriously - obviously!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 08:39 AM

" £2220 billion"
Whoops - should read £20 billion - feckin' keyboard
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 08:47 AM

"Someone to be taken very, very seriously - obviously!!"

You and your equally pathetic mates evidently think so, otherwise you would not continuously babble on about him.
I'm glad you appreciate his incisive style of accurate journalism.
No False news for him, by jingo!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 08:56 AM

"You and your equally pathetic mates evidently think so, otherwise you would not continuously babble on about him."
You and Keith appear to be the only ones who take him seriously - you quote him regularly
To repeat: "tittle tattle, gossip and rumours about Westminster's Mother of Parliaments."
A self-description of how seriously he takes his information
Sounds like the old Blackpool publication, 'Billy's Weekly Liar" without the popular support
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 09:01 AM

Exposing anti-Semitism in the Labour party makes someone, ipso facto, a right winger to some.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 10:04 AM

"Exposing anti-Semitism in the Labour party makes someone, ipso facto, a right winger to some."
Every single accusation of Labour antisemitism hass been traced directly back to the anti-BDS campaign and has been instigated by 'Friends of Israel'
The complaints are about criticism of Israeli right-winbg extremism, not the Jewish People, many of whom are equally critical of the regime
If antybody else had mentioned this you anfd yours would be screaming that we always criticise Isreal, yet you regime-supporters apparently are free to raise it whenever you wish
THIS IS ABOUT BREXIT - NOT ANTI-SEMITISM though the racist manner in which Brexit was sold is quite likely to lead to a further rise in antisemitism - as indicated here
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/us-jewish-lobby-nigel-farage-power-anti-semitism-ukip-leader-a8031191.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 10:09 AM

Every single accusation of Labour antisemitism hass been traced directly back to the anti-BDS campaign and has been instigated by 'Friends of Israel'

No it has not.

Guido Faulks is not an extreme site.

Whatever Conor Gearty is a professor of, he is still a fool if he equates Brexit to the Vietnam war.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 10:18 AM

Every single accusation of Labour antisemitism hass been traced directly back to the anti-BDS campaign and has been instigated by 'Friends of Israel'

Which, of course, is a blatant anti-Semitic statement in itself.

Chew on this tidbit of Labour anti-Semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 10:24 AM


Whatever Conor Gearty is a professor of, he is still a fool if he equates Brexit to the Vietnam war.

Can you provide a link where he does? All have found are sites like the one given where someone claims he does, and others, like the Independent, which say he draws sone specific parallels, but that is not equivakence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 10:26 AM

Exposing anti-Semitism in the Labour party makes someone, ipso facto, a right winger to some.....Which, of course, is a blatant anti-Semitic statement in itself.

Jesus, not this shit again. Can we PLEASE ignore this buffoon?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 10:28 AM

I should say I have read his full blog post and I see him making a parallel there, not claiming equivalence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 10:52 AM

"Guido Faulks is not an extreme site."
Sure it's not Keith !!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 10:56 AM

Guido Faulks is not an extreme site.

Written by a right wing tosser with an extreme right wing audience in mind

Whatever Conor Gearty is a professor of, he is still a fool if he equates Brexit to the Vietnam war.

He doesn't

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 11:06 AM

No professor you demanded "Tell us what you think" something you resolutely refuse to do on every possible occasion.

You always claim that someone else said it (whatever the subject) and cower like a true poltroon behind their words.

You are in no position to demand anything from anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 11:06 AM

Written by a right wing tosser with an extreme right wing audience in mind

Of course when you can't challenge what he writes........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 12:02 PM

Here you are jimmie. Specially for you and your pathetic little mates.

The mad professor again:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-vietnam-eu-withdrawal-talks-deals-trade-economy-lse-human-rights-law-con

As I said previously, read GUIDO for incisive journalism!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 01:08 PM

No, Iains, that is the Independent's interpretation of what he wrote. As I said, I read the original blog. And in fact both my reading and the Independent's agree he sees parallels, not equivalence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 01:19 PM

"Here you are jimmie. Specially for you and your pathetic little mates."
And there you go substituting childish abuse for argument once again
You link gave me "page not found" anyway, which just about sums up everything you have said so far.
Grow up, will you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 01:23 PM

Fawkes is what he described himself to be - a purveyor of "tittle tattle, gossip and rumours about Westminster's Mother of Parliaments."
If he can't get himself right why on arh should he be trusted on anything else
Private Eye used to do far better when they were at their height some decades ago
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 01:37 PM

The Vietnam War memorial in Washington DC is, in my view, the most impressive in its way of any war memorial I have seen anywhere in the world.

Generally, war memorials are a triumphal arch, or a monolith, or some variation of these, such as the Menin gate. The Vietnam memorial is different. It resembles nothing so much as a great scar cut into the land itself, a self inflicted wound, created by those who continued to pour more and more men into the fight rather than face up the possibility they were putting ideology over the well-being of the nation.

As one of the protest songs of the time had it

"Lyndon Johnson told a nation
Have no fear of escalation
I am trying everyone to please.
Though it isn't really war
I'm sending 50 thousand more
The help save Vietnam from the Vietnamese".


Those who have eyes to see...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 01:39 PM

"sees parallels, not equivalence."
Who cares? The man is a buffoon and the entire article is nonsense.
I would not waste my time arguing over parallels or equivalence. It is of zero interest to me what his conclusions are.
So Jimmie is the independent the equivalent of Guido? a right wing site which excels itself in peddling conspiracy theories "
Someone to be taken very, very seriously - obviously!!

Answers on half a postcard please. Otherwise I may get bored.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 01:45 PM

Fawkes ( Paul De Laire) Staines is a blogger, nothing more
His causes have included groups like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_a_Free_Britain
and he previously ran acid house parties before he found blogging more lucrative
Someone to buy a used car from….!!!!
I suppose he's a step up from your last oracle - a website owned and controlled by a Russian billionaire
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 01:47 PM

TO MAKE IT EASY FOR YOU as you appear to have trouble with links
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 01:57 PM

I should say I have read his full blog post and I see him making a parallel there, not claiming equivalence.

Fair point DMcG.
Delete, "Whatever Conor Gearty is a professor of, he is still a fool if he equates Brexit to the Vietnam war. "
Insert, "
Whatever Conor Gearty is a professor of, he is still a fool if he compares Brexit to the Vietnam war.

Dave, you are entitled to believe that the blog is"Written by a right wing tosser with an extreme right wing audience in mind."
Is your opinion based on any actual knowledge or facts that you are prepared to sgare with us, and does it mean that you regard it as an extreme site?

Rag, your latest post about me is all lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 02:15 PM

A wonderful link Jim. All fine upstanding people that make you proud to be British. A glittering example to display before the Labour lowlife doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 02:20 PM

Dave, The Independent makes the same point as Guido Fawkes.
Is that "Written by a right wing tosser with an extreme right wing audience in mind?"

Or, are you a left wing tosser who thinks that if he decrees something to be right wing he can just dismiss everything from it without any other justification?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 03:08 PM

"Or, are you a left wing tosser who thinks that if he decrees something to be right wing he can just dismiss everything from it without any other justification?"
Just as you automatically dismiss everything you disadree with as "leftie ranting" d'you mean?
"A wonderful link Jim."
Glad you like it; thought you might with your politics - it's one of the organisations Fawkes/De Laire Staines is associated with (when he isn't organising acid-house parties)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 04:41 PM

Is your opinion based on any actual knowledge or facts that you are prepared to sgare with us, and does it mean that you regard it as an extreme site?

Yes it is based on knowledge and actual facts as anyone who has read his blog can see. I have stated my views, substantiated them and will go no further. I am no longer prepared to jump through the hoops that you invariably lift higher and higher.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 05:07 PM

D the G. I enjoy a circus, especially this one!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 05:24 PM

I enjoy a circus, especially this one!

Only if you can see yourself as ringmaster. In reality, you're one of the clowns.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 05:38 PM

Iains, can you honestly say you enjoy the professors inane ramblings??

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 05:58 PM

Yet another beauty from today's Daily Mash.

It took six months and a lot of work but we've caved completely, says David Davis

BREXIT minister David Davis has proudly told Britain that after six months of tough negotiating he has given in to every single one of the EU's demands.

Davis, who turned up to negotiations in June with a blank notepad and a hopeful expression, promised that nobody could have fought harder or achieved less than he did.

He continued: "From the first day, when I conceded that negotiations would proceed exactly as the EU had decided and then spent months trying to reverse that, I have been massively out of my depth.

"For fruitless meeting after fruitless meeting, I have vainly insisted that things that were never going to happen should happen, no matter how clear it was that I was wrong.

"And, finally, after battling through our own reality-denying pigheadness, we have achieved what we could have achieved on day one by capitulating utterly.

"Now we have caved on the divorce bill, look forward to me caving on EU citizens' rights and Northern Ireland in short order. Certainly before Christmas."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 06:06 PM

The abbapotomus is sowing dissent in the Labour ranks:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5128199/Diane-Abbott-calls-second-referendum-deal-EU.html

"In reality, you're one of the clowns."

Impossible my dear boy, when up against the likes of you! It is so much easier to choreograph the clowns.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 06:11 PM

You're drunk, aren't you, Iains?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 06:25 PM

Oh Shaw, that crap has passed it's best before date.........yaaawnnn.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 08:17 PM

So she's called Diane Abbott. Just in case you didn't know, boobs. Some people like to use their real names. I'm one, and so is Diane. I know you're not one of them. Or two of them. Still at it, are you, by the way?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 03:17 AM

The abbapotomus

What an awful expression to use about someone who has had to suffer prejudice all their life. The plus side is that it shows you as a nasty piece of work that has no qualms in using someones race, gender or appearance against them. Well done.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 03:39 AM

"The plus side is that it shows you as a nasty piece of work that has no qualms in using someones race, gender or appearance against them. Well done."

What a pathetic little creature you are gnome. Pop back under your stone there's a good lad.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 03:48 AM

"The abbapotomus is sowing dissent in the Labour ranks:"
Sexist with a touch of racism thrown in
Not so long ago this clown was whingeing about racist Ukip being described as "scum"
Get the connection?
Sadiq Khan has also called for a second referendum, if Abbopotumus is come, can 'Turban Head' be far behind
You only enjoy this because you refuse to respond to any of the points with anything like intelligent argument
That has become the technique of you trio - if you can't handle it, pretend it isn't there
LIKE THIS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 03:48 AM

"So she's called Diane Abbott. Just in case you didn't know, boobs. Some people like to use their real names. I'm one, and so is Diane."

Thread #162548   Message #3870346
Posted By: Steve Shaw
06-Aug-17 - 05:37 PM
Silly Inanes. Silly Keith. Inane Iains. Inane Keith. Quite possibly, though I'm no medic, insane Iains and insane Keith.

You are a fool shaw

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 03:52 AM

THIS IS WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN LINKED
Ignore away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 04:11 AM

Not only do you ably demonstrate your disregard for other people Iains but then go on to underline it by insulting those who point it out. I am sure someone must be proud of you. Teribus maybe?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 04:34 AM

More double standards?

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 08:17 PM
So she's called Diane Abbott. Just in case you didn't know, boobs. Some people like to use their real names. I'm one, and so is Diane. I know you're not one of them. Or two of them. Still at it, are you, by the way?

Whenever you find yourself losing an argument you start calling me 'Nige' in a patronising tone, although you are aware that that is not my name.

Also you have been happy to support Jim Carroll's use of denigratory names for politicians.

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:11 PM
. . . Calling politicians names and lampooning them is all par for the course. 'Twas ever thus. In fact, it's a healthy sign that we live in a democracy and not a dictatorship, in which "disrespecting" leaders could cost you your head. It is not the same on this forum as we are addressing each other, not third parties who aren't listening. There has been a very persistent trend for two members here to call Jim "Jom" or "Carroll" and me "Shaw." Yes plenty of us are guilty of indulging in similar practices at times, it can't be gainsaid. However, the Shaw, Jom And Carroll are hostile attempts at talking down by two people who are singularly unqualified to talk down to anyone.

Yes, definitely double standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM

The name being used against Diane Abbott in this thread goes way beyond all that, Nige. It has sexist and racist undertones and is directed against a woman with multiple medical issues. Do try to see the, er, nuance in this...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 05:24 AM

"Also you have been happy to support Jim Carroll's use of denigratory names for politicians.2
Oh dear -
Politicians have been fair game for name-calling ands satire throughout history
Most decent satirists gave up prsonal attacks based on physiacal appearance (as used here by Iains) decades ago
Comparing non-whites and those of different cultures to animmals has been a racist commonplace forever
The fact that Iains leaps on his chair when racist Ukip is attacked sums up what he is pretty well
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 05:28 AM

Anyway, out of the swamp and back to breggzit (as I heard a news pundit pronounce it yesterday). I note that net migration has plummeted, mostly due to EU citizens either leaving or not coming any more. Many or most of those are people who would have added value to our economy and public services, but we have no control over the exodus.

No control. Ironic, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 05:29 AM

Dave,
"Is your opinion based on any actual knowledge or facts that you are prepared to share with us"

So, as I suspected, the answer is "no."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 05:30 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM
The name being used against Diane Abbott in this thread goes way beyond all that, Nige. It has sexist and racist undertones and is directed against a woman with multiple medical issues. Do try to see the, er, nuance in this...
The name I've seen in these threads seems to be 'Abbapotamus'. To me this would be a cross between her name (Abbott) & 'Hippopotamus'. It may be a dig at her proportions, but I don't see how you can possibly claim that it is either racist or sexist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 05:35 AM

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3685515/diane-abbott-sparks-fury-as-its-revealed-she-once-branded-uk-one-of-the-most-fundamentally

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/788957/question-time-diane-abbott-brexit-racism-xenophobic-suella-fernandes-labour-mp


https://www.change.org/p/jeremy-corbyn-mp-remove-diane-abbot-as-a-labour-mp-for-her-outright-racism-against-british-and-white-pe

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12029702.Abbott_denies_attack_on_nurses_was_racist/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 06:03 AM

Do any of them call her "The abbapotomus", Iains, or do even the gutter press draw the line at using sexist and racist insults? It seems you have sunk even lower than your preferred news sources.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 04:41 PM

Is your opinion based on any actual knowledge or facts that you are prepared to sgare with us, and does it mean that you regard it as an extreme site?

Yes it is based on knowledge and actual facts as anyone who has read his blog can see. I have stated my views, substantiated them and will go no further. I am no longer prepared to jump through the hoops that you invariably lift higher and higher.

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 05:29 AM

Dave,
"Is your opinion based on any actual knowledge or facts that you are prepared to share with us"

So, as I suspected, the answer is "no."

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM

Iains
So the right wing Sun, the Express and a petitioner whose petitiion was banned because it "violated our Community Guidelines "violated our Community Guidelines" don't like Diana Abbott
Are you really attempting to justify your personal verging on racist attacks on the woman?
As I pointed out, equating other races with animals is the oldest RACIST PLOY in the book
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 06:28 AM

This American thanks Theresa May for condemning President Trump for posting white nationalist the videos on Twitter.
Enough of the silence concerning the psychotic episodes of our ( Russian installed ) dementia addled and delusional comic reality clown of a public servant.

I called Reagan a man suffering from brain disease on live TV 3 years before it was announced he had Alzheimer disease. The least people can do is tell the truth. The most they can do is tell the truth daily.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 06:29 AM

Jimmie and poxy little gnome. Try growing up!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 06:43 AM

"Jimmie and poxy little gnome. Try growing up!"
We seem to have arrived at your level of debating Iains
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 06:45 AM

Jimmie and poxy little gnome. Try growing up!

Stop digging, Iains. You have already proven beyond any shadow of doubt that you have nothing useful to add.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 06:57 AM

Let's take back control of our borders! Abandon breggzit!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 08:09 AM

Can we not just abandon borders?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 08:44 AM

First lets all abandon Inanes!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 09:32 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM
. . . As I pointed out, equating other races with animals is the oldest RACIST PLOY in the book

It may,/I> be used as a racist ploy, at times. But that does not mean that that is always the case.
Describing the British infantry as "lions led by donkeys" is intended to disparage the military leadership. Neither "lions" nor "donkeys" is intended as a racist slur.

Likewise "Abbapotamus" might merely be a comment on her size. But there are some who will read racism & sexism into anything.
I have no personal insight into who coined the term, or what their intentions were. And while I wouldn't use the term, I cannot see it as either racist or sexist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 09:48 AM

Likewise "Abbapotamus" might merely be a comment on her size

And you think that is OK because..?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 09:58 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 09:48 AM
Likewise "Abbapotamus" might merely be a comment on her size
And you think that is OK because..?
I didn't say it was Ok. I try to avoid using any derogatory names.
The point I was making is that some are to quick to read racism or sexism into everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 10:06 AM

For the record I think the term has both racist and sexist overtones when you consider who it was used about but I do accept that not everyone will see it that way.

However, if you accept it is a term that is not OK to use then the motivation behind it does not matter. It simply should not have been used. Applying the name to someone who has suffered abuse all her life is insensitive in the extreme regardless of why the person used it and says for more about Iains than about Dianne Abbott.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 10:09 AM

"It may,/I> be used as a racist ploy, at times. But that does not mean that that is always the case."
When you couple it with a defence of a racist party like Ukip, it's a fair indication of the outlook of the poster, especially when he has complained (of our abusing that part in the same manner he has abused a black member of Parliament)
Coincidence maybe!!
"Oh - that's all right then!!
What kind of people are you to use personal debate in place of straightforward debate ?
It really is time he came to terms with his behaviour - he's not even very good at it - little more than crude, schoolyard name-calling, most of which he's borrowed from elsewhere anyway
All this is little more than an attempt to avoid tha fact that Brexit is an utter disaster, the only benefir it has brought is the loss of the Tory working majority and an exposé of their idiocy and ruthlessness

Jim Carroll
Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 10:10 AM

A hippopotamus is fat, ugly, and black.

Liking Diane Abbott to a fat, ugly, black animal sounds as close to 'racist' and 'sexist' as it's possible to get. Only an insensitive clown would fail to see the connection.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 10:18 AM

So don't do it again, Iains. Stick to calling me and Jim extremely childish and stupid names. It's far more fun and it can't be sexist or racist. At least we THINK you're a bloke. Anybody can be anything here, I suppose. One thing's for sure: you're a big girl's blouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 10:32 AM

Hey, don't leave me out Steve! I am a 'poxy little gnome' remember? Although I think I could claim that to be sizeist, speciesist and suggesting that I may have a certain (anti)social disease.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 11:01 AM

Oops, sorry, Dave! I wouldn't want you to not lose too!

Another beauty from The Mash:

Brexit divorce gives Northern Ireland to UK in week and EU at weekends

THE UK has agreed to share custody of Northern Ireland with the EU, and that it will look after the province Monday to Friday and split school holidays.

After a financial settlement was agreed yesterday, the two parties have now come to an amicable agreement about the statelet with its best interests and future at heart.

Brexit minister David Davis said: "I sat down with Northern Ireland today and explained that sometimes countries, and unions of countries, don't make each other happy any more.

"But that doesn't mean we love it any less, and it definitely isn't any of its fault.

"I just hope that flash bastard Barnier doesn't spoil it. We all know he's got all the bloody money - my money - so there's no need to rub it in."

Barnier said: "I do have a lot on already and I've got committments to other countries, but I really believe we can make this work. Though it'll have to get used to spending more time with Slovenia."

A spokesman for Northern Ireland said: "This is all because of me, isn't it. I'm going goth to show them."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 12:42 PM

Oh dear. Poor little mudrats. Is it the onset of second childhood or approaching senility that requires scraping the barrel for something to post. I put the Abbopotomus in the same category as you three. To be treated with the uttermost contempt.

Shaw:Calling politicians names and lampooning them is all par for the course. 'Twas ever thus. In fact, it's a healthy sign that we live in a democracy and not a dictatorship, in which "disrespecting" leaders could cost you your head. You silly little man.

Jimmie"Mayflower naused up her majority in an attempt to strengthen her hand and was forced to bung a Party with terrorist connections £1billion of the taxpayers money to clean up her mess"
The gnome." conniving scumbags like Farage"

Makes your previous posts kook rather pathetic. Doncha think? or perhaps that is the problem. You do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 01:43 PM

"Shaw:Calling politicians names and lampooning them is all par for the course."
Racism is the level of the BNP - that is where you are at
Nobody gives twi fucks about lampooning them - bringing racism to this forum, as you have done is different
You want to point out anybody else who has sunk to that level
No?
Thought not
Not waving (or, in your case blustering) - but drowning
Nice example of mask-slipping, I'd say
Rememver - this all started when you objected to Ukip being called "scum"
"Jim calling people scum just invites retaliation, you pillock."
Now it's "Calling politicians names and lampooning them is all par for the course."
Hoist- petard - how does the sayong go?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 01:52 PM

Dave,
"Is your opinion based on any actual knowledge or facts that you are prepared to share with us"

So as I suspected the answer is no, your opinion is not based on any knowledge or facts that you are prepared to share with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 02:11 PM

Hey Jimmie, you may be able to read but comprehension has to be labelled. MUST TRY HARDER!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 02:48 PM

Translator's note, please!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 02:55 PM

Don't prod another Troll out from under his bridge
News tonight that the DUP is threatening to withdraw support for the Tories if they attempt to negotiate a sea-border
Just as you thought it couldn't get any more entertaining
Wonder if they'll be asked to pay their bung back
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 03:00 PM

I don't think they've 'ad it yet, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 02:22 AM

It would a deep tragedy if the Troubles recurred because of the reintroduction of a hard border for no better reason than to keep May more confident she can win votes.

Please don't just say you dont want a hard border. None of us do. And I don't think anyone here - leaver or remainer - can come up with a way of achieving it if our negotiating team can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 03:17 AM

"I don't think they've 'ad it yet, Jim."
An attempt at humour on my part Steve - the bribe is to be paid OVER TWO YEARS after which it will be reviewd to see if it needs to increase.
"Please don't just say you dont want a hard border."
The Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, had said he will veto negotiations on Brexit if the possibility of a hard border arises - hopefully he will be truer to his word than the politicians attempting to sell a catastrophic decision to a British public who are now having too face the consequences of this pig-in--a-poke decision
The announced threat by the DUP yesterday showed all the signs of the old Unionist antagonism towards a United Ireland and as the gap closes between the two groups in the Six Counties, with the majority party maintaining its lead by one M.P., it is essential that the Peace Process is allowed to continue
Direct rule from London is the last thing Ireland needs   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 03:19 AM

ITV reports mps think hard border inevitable


As do sky news and others.

The mad leftie bbc is more nuanced: they report the mps "cannot see how" a hard border can be avoided.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 03:36 AM

"The mad leftie bbc "
I trust this is an ironic comment - you appear to have missed out the exclamation marks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 03:50 AM

Yes, it was ironic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 04:08 AM

DMcG
It would a deep tragedy if the Troubles recurred because of the reintroduction of a hard border for no better reason than to keep May more confident she can win votes.

There are no votes for May in the border issue.
It is only EU/Ireland making an issue of it anyway, and no doubt they have their reasons.

Please don't just say you dont want a hard border. None of us do.

May went much further. She said she would not accept one.

. And I don't think anyone here - leaver or remainer - can come up with a way of achieving it if our negotiating team can't.

They can and have. Former Irish leader Bertie Ahern has as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 04:15 AM

On the BBC R4 news today they have been reporting what the committee said, but have not mentioned that the committee was split and that five members disassociate themselves from the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 04:18 AM

There are votes in it for May whether the border is land or sea, Keith, if the committee I linked to is right that a hard border is inevitable if we stick to our position on customs union.

Still, there's talk of a form of words on Monday and mid December council so we will soon see.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 04:26 AM

The mad leftie bbc is more nuanced: they report the mps "cannot see how" a hard border can be avoided.

What the report actually said,
"We do not currently see how it will be possible..."

So, "accurate" rather than "nuanced."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 04:27 AM

The mad leftie bbc is more nuanced: they report the mps "cannot see how" a hard border can be avoided.

What the report actually said,
"We do not currently see how it will be possible..."

So, "accurate" rather than "nuanced."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 04:31 AM

If you cannot see the difference, Iains, then there is no hope for you. You are now officially in the same league as Keith.

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 04:32 AM

"t is only EU/Ireland making an issue of it anyway, and no doubt they have their reasons."
How about not filling any more body bags Keith - we know that's never been a problem with the British Establishment
If the border returns it will have set the Peace Process back decades - obviously a little difficult for Little Britain to get its tiny brain around.
"May went much further. She said she would not accept one."
Isn't that the same woman who bunged the North with taxpayers money to win back a majority her own stupidity had thrown away?
A woman to be trusted
That bung went to a party who is now insisting that the only alternative solution if the North is going to remain in the UK is unacceptable.
Britain has chosen to leave the Eu and its politicians are now demanding rights that are not available to non-member states - having you cake and eating it.
"Yes, it was ironic."
Whew - that's a relief
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 04:32 AM

You are trying, Keith, I can't deny it.

"We do not currently see how it will be possible to reconcile there being no border with the Government's policy of leaving the single market and the customs union, which will inevitably make the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland the EU's customs border with the UK," the committee said.

So both 'inevitable' and "can't see" are there: it is not more accurate to pick on the one rather than the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 05:10 AM

It is remiss of me to rely on newspaper reports rather than go back to the actual report. So here it is.

Paragraph 47 is the one we are discussing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 05:44 AM

These are the details of the DUP's position as stated by their spokesman
Arlene Foster has thrown in yet another bombshell by claiming in a letter to the EU Commission that Brexit will in no way effect the peace process - she has consulted no-one before making this claim
One of the issues here in the UK's security, which is already a bit of an
unexplored territory
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-uk-crime-security-worsen-europe-eu-europol-brian-donald-isis-terrorism-safety-uk-leave-a8022856.html
Jim Carroll

DUP WARNS MAY OVER ANY BORDER CONCESSIONS
Party alarmed as EU talks with Britain enter critical stage in Brussels Taoiseach to hold meeting in Dublin today with president of European Council

Talks between the British government and the European Union, with the heavy involvement of Irish officials, are entering a critical stage in Brussels, as the EU side seeks concrete assurances on the Border from the British.
There was no signal from either side about the progress of the talks last night. But the DUP was sufficiently alarmed by the prospect of UK concessions on the Border to warn British prime minister Theresa May that any concession which affected Northern Ireland's relationship with the rest of the UK risked the party's support for Ms May's minority government.
In a further development, Westminster's Brexit committee said it could not see how Britain's commitment to keeping the Border open could be reconciled with its policy of leaving the customs union.

Place barriers
DUP leader Arlene Foster said she had made it clear to the British government there could be 'no arrangements agreed that compromise the integrity of the UK single market and place barriers, real or perceived, to the free movement of goods, services and capital between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom
DUP MP Sammy Wilson said he was seeking clarification from the British government on reports that Ms May was preparing to make concessions to the EU on the Border.
'If there is any hint that in order to placate Dublin and the EU they're prepared to have Northern Ireland treated differently than the rest of the UK then they can't rely on our vote,' he said.
'They have to recognise that if this is about treating Northern Ireland differently or leaving us half in the EU, dragging along behind regulations which change in Dublin, it's not on,' Mr Wilson added.
British move
The fears in the DUP were being interpreted in political circles as evidence that a British move was becoming more likely. Discussions between the British and the EU will continue today and over the week-end in advance of a crucial meeting between Ms May and European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker on Monday at which Ms May is expected to table the British offers on the Border, the Brexit bill and citizens' rights.
Last night, T?naiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney said the Government 'cannot accept the re-emergence of a Border on this island'.
Other, EU countries were fully supportive of Ireland's position, he said, and if the British were unable to supply satisfactory assurances, 'then this process will have to be delayed'.
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar is to hold a meeting in Dublin today with Donald Tusk, president of the European Council.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 05:57 AM

So there are three possibilities:

1. A hard border (there are currently over two hundred crossing points)

2. We stay in the customs union

3. The EU allows a fudge

It's seems clear to me that the government is living in eternal hope of the latter. A hard border would be a disaster. Almost everyone agrees on that. The government has already completely caved in on one of the three sticking points in the negotiations, so staying in the customs union/single market, with all the implications for continuing free movement (as we've seen in the net migration figures, the leave team forgot that you can stop free movement in one direction only), would be seen as a disastrous climbdown (though it would actually be the only favourable outcome of this shambles). But the EU is determined not to allow an exception. The other 27 are watching like hawks to ensure that rules are not broken. That's the only way of holding such a massive and ungainly cooperative together. Special relationships and special circumstances don't add up to a hill of beans. I should think that almost every member state can claim a bit of that specialness, one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 06:40 AM

"five members disassociate themselves from the report."
Perhaps you would like to compare those five members with the percentage of British people who actually voted against Brexit - or does a majority vote only count when it supports something you agree with?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 06:45 AM

Steve,
4. We leave the border invisible as it is now.

DMcG,
Yes. They can not see how it will not be inevitable, but five of them can.

Jim, you are incapable of rational thought on this so I will not reply to you.
If you put points to me one at a time without emotive hyperbole, I will happily respond as best I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 06:54 AM

five of them can.

Five perhaps claim they can (it could be something else they objected to that stopped them approving the report: it is a lot longer than Iains half a postcard.)

But if they can, they could not give a sufficiently convincing explanation to satisfy any of the other 16 or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 06:55 AM

An invisible border would be the very epitome of an EU fudge. Well get that if we stay in the customs union. Otherwise it would be a fudge. An unlikely one, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 06:56 AM

I've just murdered an apostrophe.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 06:59 AM

"Jim, you are incapable of rational thought on this so I will not reply to you."
Course you can't Keith
I put up actual reports - those are what you are refusing to respond to, not me.
You repeat your "five" people yet choose to ignore the 16,141,241 people who thought Brexit would be the mess it has turned out to be - very "rational"!!!
Don't worry Keith - my point was not really addressed to you in order to get an answer, I put it up to elicit the response it got from you.
That seems to be the general approach to this subject - faced with questions you can't answer, you leap on your chairs and scream "mouse!!"
That's what makes these discussions so entertainiing
Carry on not carrying on, so to speak
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 07:01 AM

"I've just murdered an apostrophe."
Why not turn it into a question mark - it seems to be the fashion here?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 07:10 AM

Copying and pasting from other websites seems to be the problem. It turns apostrophes, speech marks and dashes into question marks. Wassup!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 07:49 AM

"That seems to be the general approach to this subject - faced with questions you can't answer, you leap on your chairs and scream "mouse!!"

That must be the best comment I've ever read on this forum! Brilliant, Jim - I love it! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 08:30 AM

Jim, I said I would happily respond to any point you care to put to me, just one at a time and without all the wild hyperbole please.

Are you incapable of reasoned discussion on this?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 08:32 AM

Steve,
An invisible border would be the very epitome of an EU fudge.

No. It is what we have now and there is no need to change it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 08:35 AM

Not exactly brexit related but a kick in the bollocks to some who support it.

Nice to have some good news :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 08:54 AM

Some bad news. The Mail has been profitable until now, but The Guardian has been consistently loss-making. The National Newspaper division of GMG, which also includes The Observer, reported operating losses of £49.9m in 2006, up from £18.6m in 2005

In June 2011 Guardian News and Media revealed increased annual losses of £33m

For the three years up to June 2012, the paper lost £100,000 a day, which prompted Intelligent Life to question whether The Guardian could survive

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 08:55 AM

"No. It is what we have now and there is no need to change it."

Well that's all right then/alright then (oops, wrong thread). But I wonder what all the angst is about then, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 09:06 AM

The Guardian financials are not great by anyone's standards. But it might be more appropriate to use the latest figures rather than 2006.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 09:20 AM

I admit I hadn't heard of "Imtelligent Life" magazine so I looked into it.

It did not survive as such, having been rebranded in March 2016 into "1843" which described its coverage as "the arts, style, food, wine, cars, travel and anything else under the sun, as long as it is interesting."

Perhaps not where I would look for financial stories, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 09:25 AM

"Jim, I said I would happily respond to any point you care to put to me,"
Who asked you to Keith?
You really do not have anything of either interest or intelligence to say
"Hyperbole"
I'm putting up information from the press - are they really not to be taken seriously or taking revenge on you?
Why the **** are we discussing the finances of the Guardian on a thread about Brexit? (Hypothetical question - When in a corner - talk about something else)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 09:34 AM

Paul Golding got a shot in the arm from Trump
I would like to give Paul a shot in the

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 09:34 AM

I consider myself admonished, Jim, and shall cease following that diversion forthwith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 09:50 AM

Why the **** are we discussing the finances of the Guardian on a thread about Brexit?

Jim, it started as a piece of good news about the Daily Heil shares dropping 25%. And considering how you bring up the subject of Israel on any thread at the drop of a hat I would not be so quick to cast the first stone if I were you.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 11:05 AM

"I consider myself admonished, Jim,"
Wasn't aimed at you Mac - we've all fallen into one of Keith's black holes - I'm still a regular attender of 'Keithicus Anonymous' meetings
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 11:21 AM

Jim,
Who asked you to Keith?

You implied that I was the one avoiding responding to points.

"Jim, you are incapable of rational thought on this so I will not reply to you."
Course you can't Keith

I can, but one point at a time without emotive shit about body bags please.

DMcG, I gave figures up to 2012 which is as far as Wiki went. I fear they have only got worse since.

But I wonder what all the angst is about then, Keith?

The EU are making it an issue to make a deal harder for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 11:31 AM

"The EU are making it an issue to make a deal harder for us."

Nonsense. They are playing by the rules. Why should they make an exception for us? Hopefully, a way will be found for them to do that without causing ructions among member states. In the meantime, you should be blaming the chump who got us into this mess in the first place, David Cameron.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 11:46 AM

DMcG, I gave figures up to 2012 which is as far as Wiki went. I fear they have only got worse since.

My comment to Jim was a bit tongue in cheek, but even so I won't talk about it directly. But one point I have made time and again on this thread is to try and find the underlying, original material, rather than someone else's digest and interpretation of it. Finding a company's financial statement is not difficult if they are publically listed. This approach does require you to interpret the statement in Hansard, or the committee's paper, or the financials for yourself, though, so it is more work.

It's been a long time since it was said, but I also need to reference Nigel's remark about 'read[ing] Hansard to shore up your comments'. Absolutely not. That would be a prime example of confirmation bias. Far better to read Hansard, think about it, and only then formulate your comments. AT which point you can reference Hansard to explain why that is your opinion. But "opinion first, read second" is completely wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 11:47 AM

"You implied that I was the one avoiding responding to points.You implied that I was the one avoiding responding to points."
Not only you Keith - your little team is
"I can, but one point at a time without emotive shit about body bags please."
The fact that there is a serious threat of RETURNING to VIOLENCE if the North is returned to Direct Rule is a constant topic of conversation here - it apparently hasn't reached your corner of 'Little England' yet
"The EU are making it an issue to make a deal harder for us."
Britain has taken teh decision to leave and is now demanding rights that are only open to members
It is Britain's decision that has made it not just harder but virtually impossible to progress on
Why the **** should a non-member have any rights once they have left (that reminds me - must renew my library ticket if I want to take out any more books)
Sorry am feeding the troll again - see how easy it is to fall down Keith' rabbit hole Mac
"My name is Jim Carroll and I think I am a Keithoholic"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 12:10 PM

It's easy, Jim - just ignore the wazzock's OCD ramblings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 01:18 PM

Will do Baccy
Tuske has just announced publicly that if the deal put forward on the Border, then it's not good enough for Europe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 01:47 PM

Steve,
Nonsense. They are playing by the rules. Why should they make an exception for us?

What do you mean us? A border has two sides. They are on one side and supposedly no-one wants a hard border!

the chump who got us into this mess in the first place, David Cameron.

No, it was the electorate. Labour wanted a referendum too.

Jim,
The fact that there is a serious threat of RETURNING to VIOLENCE if the North is returned to Direct Rule is a constant topic of conversation here

Nothing to do with Brexit Jim. More to do with Sinn Fein.

Britain has taken teh decision to leave and is now demanding rights that are only open to members

More rubbish. We only want free trade, and Canada was given that without paying a penny!

It is Britain's decision that has made it not just harder but virtually impossible to progress on

Even more rubbish! Britain wants to progress on but EU won't allow it.

Why the **** should a non-member have any rights once they have left

We do not want any rights, but free trade is in everyone's interest.

Now please Jim, JUST ONE POINT AT A TIME!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 01:52 PM

You appear (whether through ignorance, or unwillingness to look at the actual details of the negotiations) unable to realise that UK and The Republic of Ireland cannot decide what will happen.
Although both would wish that there will not be a 'hard' border, Ireland are not able to negotiate their own position. They have to wait for the EU to tell them what their position will be


Still some days to go but it isn't sounding quite like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 02:25 PM

Something for the rats to chew on!


http://www.cityam.com/276748/city-firms-hiring-spree-salaries-look-set-keep-rising

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 02:34 PM

Yes plenty to chew on, Iains.

But maybe not the things you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 02:56 PM

City A.M. is a free right-wing Tory rag given away at stations in London by guys in uniform. Its current editor was appointed two years ago when he was 28. One of its founders appears to have been assassinated by one of Putin's men in a Latvian forest. One of the previous editors wanted London to be declared a city state and wanted to abolish all personal and corporation taxes and introduce a single income tax rate of 30% on personal earnings, dividends, rent and interest.

Iains is certainly the links comedy gift that simply keeps on giving.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 03:07 PM

"Something for the rats to chew on!"
That's comforting - given the Trump connection, can we look forward to the city types discarding their bowler hats for Swastika armbands and Jackboots?
SS/GB in real life - eh what!!
"Now please Jim, JUST ONE POINT AT A TIME!"
For Christ's sake Keith, I fou can't keep up, stcik with Eastenders
Nobody want's to talk to you anyway
"Nothing to do with Brexit Jim. More to do with Sinn Fein."
You seem to have swapped your Union Jack for your old bowler hat and Orange sash
See what I mean - read the article
It has everything to do with Brexit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 03:09 PM

you just cannot beat a bit of clickbait!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 04:15 PM

So are we to assume all your posts could just be clickbait, Iains? It will encourage us to ignore them, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 05:19 PM

No, DMcG. He's back-pedalling because someone took the trouble to investigate the background to his link, and found the link seriously wanting. His last post was sheer pretence. He had either thought no-one would check or he hadn't checked it out himself first. We can only guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 05:26 PM

It is not in the nature of you and your ilk to ignore a post. The rest of us totally ignore the bulk of the postings here. You are hooked on the sound of your own chattering, hence your vast number of posts.
As exemplified by the arch chatterer above.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 05:57 PM

Another duff link from you, Iains. Hide your head in shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 05:58 PM

"The rest of us totally ignore the bulk of the postings here."

And your evidence for this assertion is...?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 03:33 AM

"The rest of us totally ignore the bulk of the postings here."
Is that a confession or a boast?
You consistently ignore researched articles taken from the press and have refused to respond to the now proven facts of the situation.
Keith is typical as he constantly whines that he is receiving too much information to take in
You just resort to personally insulting those who provide that information,
If we all embraced Keith's philosophy that the objectives of these discussions are to "win" something, I think it would be a case of 'game, set and match'
There is ample evidence to suggest that Brexit has cost Britain more than it can afford and has naused up the economy, damaged the social structure and is already eating into the living standards of the mass of the people.
It was an appallingly destructive decision taken for all the wrong (nationalist and racist) reasons, and future generations will have to pick up the pieces.
FUTURE

The floor's yours Iaians - now let's have a bit more personal abuse from you to start the day as you obviously mean to continue
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 03:49 AM

Jim, the return of direct rule has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Sinn Fein.
Belfast telegraph last week,
"The DUP and Sinn Fein have been engaged in talks to restore devolution to Northern Ireland since the republican party pulled down the institutions in January. "
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/further-moves-to-direct-rule-inevitable-says-dups-foster-ahead-of-pm-meeting-36

I knocked down all your points but you only challenge this one?
Given up on the others?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 03:51 AM

Oh the joys of labour under comrade corbyn!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5138357/Momentum-kick-councillor-working-class.html

"The rest of us totally ignore the bulk of the postings here."
Is that a confession or a boast?"
Sadly a fact!
How many contributors now exist in the BS section?
Most have been driven away by your constant wittering.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 03:55 AM

Keith is typical as he constantly whines that he is receiving too much information to take in

No Jim. I ask for points to be put in an intelligible way without being couched in emotive hype about body bags, bowler hats, flags and sashes.

I answered all the points hidden in your last spew, but would much prefer reasoned discussion such as that from DMcG.
You are just incapable of rational thought on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 03:58 AM

Keefie doesn't 'discuss' in any sense of the word. He simply tries to set traps for the unwary in order to 'win' points (in his own feeble mind). He never gives his own opinions, he just claims not to have any knowledge of whatever is under discussion and presents links to dubious right-wing sources. He starts threads with a question, and he answers questions with questions, trying to set a trap - the last refuge of a (feeble-minded) scoundrel.

I short, he's a waste of cyber-space who should be ignored by everyone. The worst kind of troll. If everyone did as I've decided to do and ignored him, he'd fuck off with any luck.

Don't feed the trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 04:05 AM

"Don't feed the trolls.
How about us all making this a New Years Resolution brought forward a month - we could look on it as our contribution to cleaning up he Mudcat environment?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 04:35 AM

Here is a good Blame it on Brexit story.

Nothing to do with Brexit at all, naturally. The goal - ?World-class capable leaders are needed to ensure that the UK?s universities become one of the stars in the UK?s post-Brexit export strategy,? said Gill Rider, chair of the Southampton University?s council. ?Sir Christopher brings breadth and depth of experience that is critical to Southampton?s long-term success.? - would be exactly the same even if the referendum had never taken place.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 04:37 AM

Damn non-ascii characters!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 05:11 AM

Backwoodsman, you have just made a post which is entirely a personal attack.
That is a breach of Mudcat rules.
It is also just lies.
He never gives his own opinions

Every opinion I have expressed here is my own.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 05:19 AM

Key to UK's future lies in Dublin, says Tusk
Irish Times
HARRY McGEE Political Correspondent
European Council president Donald Tusk has thrown his support firmly behind Ireland in the Brexit negotiations, saying if the UK's offer on the Border is unacceptable to Ireland it will be unacceptable to the EU'.
Mr Tusk met Taoiseach Leo Varadkar in Dublin yesterday before Monday's deadline for British prime minister Theresa May to submit her government's final offer for the first phase of the UK divorce talks.
Mr Tusk offered robust support for Ireland's negotiating position. In effect, he said that the EU would give Ireland the right to veto any offer on the Border proposed by Ms May.
'We agreed today that before proposing guidelines on transition and future relations I will consult the Taoiseach on [whether or not] the UK offer is sufficient for the Irish Government. Let me say very clearly if the UK offer is unacceptable for Ireland it will be unacceptable for the EU,' he said.
In an unequivocal message to the British government, he said: 'This is why the key to the UK's future lies, in some ways, in Dublin, at least as long as Brexit negotiations continue.'
Mr Tusk's backing will be seen as giving a major fillip to the Government in the run-up to Monday's deadline and the crucial EU summit that begins on December 14th.

Strong support
Mr Varadkar also spoke to European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker who also expressed strong support for the Irish position.
A special Cabinet meeting has been arranged for Monday morning, at which Mr Varadkar and T?naiste and Minister
for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney will brief colleagues on progress on the Border issue.
No other contacts have been scheduled between Mr Varadkar and other leaders, including the British prime minister, over the weekend. However, Government officials last night stressed this may change as the situation evolves.
Later on Monday, Ms May will meet Mr Juncker to put the final British offer on the three key phase-one issues: the so-called divorce bill, the rights of EU and British citizens post-Brexit, and Border issues with Ireland.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 05:26 AM

The BBC also has this bit, which I think is important:

The taoiseach thanked Mr Tusk for the solidarity demonstrated by all EU partners and called the EU "a family which sticks together".

He said he was optimistic that a deal could be achieved by Monday.

However, he said any UK offer must indicate how a hard border can be avoided and avoid the risk of regulatory divergence.


"Avoid the risk of regulatory divergence": that has implications which might not be immediately obvious, such as who decides whether a divergence has occurred, or whether only one side - i.e. the EU - is able to set the regulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 05:46 AM

Every opinion I have expressed here is my own.

Including the opinion that British Pakistanis have a proclivity to groom and molest underage girls?

Just wondering.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 06:08 AM

I don't think that is very helpful, Dave. At the least, it is likely to change the subject for some time.

I was reading an article by Robert Peston recently who was saying how shocked he was that he did not know anyone who wanted to leave and so some third of the entire population was pretty much invisible to him. And he recognised that as a flaw in himself.

I am not in quite such an extreme position since I know several leavers, but certainly my social circle is dominated by remainers. And, like Peston, I think that is a problem. I want to hear and discuss things with Keith and Ake and Nigel. I probably won't agree with them very often, but it improves *me* if I have a better understanding where they are coming from. Whatever happens, we will all be in the same country together subject to the same rules and regulations, so I think it a bad move if either side huffs off and refuses to engage with the other.

The one exception is anyone who openly admits they have no interest in the conversation. There is little point trying to engage with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 06:09 AM

Including the opinion that British Pakistanis have a proclivity to groom and molest underage girls?

Not that one Dave, and I have never even quoted anyone else who believed such shit.
My case on that thread was that there was an over-representation of that group in that specific crime. You agreed with me I recall.

Asked directly why it should be, I could give no reason so I quoted a number of people who believed they could.

They were all Left wing, mostly senior Labour people and mostly of the group in question.

Every opinion I have expressed on this thread is indeed my own.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 06:19 AM

"The rest of us totally ignore the bulk of the postings here."
Is that a confession or a boast?"
Sadly a fact...

For the second time of asking, where's your evidence for this? Have you carried out a comprehensive survey of "the rest of you?"

As for Sinn Fein being to blame for the situation in Northern Ireland, I'd have thought a good starting point would be that it takes two to tango. So where's your evidence that the DUP are entirely blameless, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 06:22 AM

"Not that one Dave, and I have never even quoted anyone else who believed such shit."
Please let's not waste something here that may be useful on the relevant threads and is quite likely to get this one closed down.
We all know what Keith said.
I too "want to hear and discuss things" - but all those you mention have to offer is distortion, obfuscation, repetition and personal insults.
THere are people who we disagree with who are perfectly capable of putting up intelligent arguments and reliable information - but not this trio - though Nigel at his best, puts up a good defence when he puts his mind to it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 06:45 AM

all those you mention have to offer is distortion, obfuscation, repetition and personal insults

They are beacons of clarity compared to a certain relative of mine!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 07:03 AM

"They are beacons of clarity compared to a certain relative of mine!"
I hope you take good care of him/her
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 07:14 AM

Steve,
As for Sinn Fein being to blame for the situation in Northern Ireland, I'd have thought a good starting point would be that it takes two to tango. So where's your evidence that the DUP are entirely blameless, Keith?

The "situation in NI" is due the their mad sectarian politics, but we were discussing direct rule.
Direct rule is likely because of the resignation of Martin McGuinness as deputy first minister causing the collapse of the devolved parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 07:29 AM

New York Times,
"January, when Northern Ireland’s governing coalition collapsed. That created a power vacuum at Stormont that has still not been filled, paralyzing the region’s already pinched institutions and threatening a 1998 peace deal that largely ended three decades of fighting between nationalist and unionist factions.
Since that deal, known as the Good Friday Agreement, Northern Ireland has been run mostly by a devolved regional government that must, in effect, be led by a coalition between the region’s largest nationalist party and its largest unionist counterpart.
But in January this delicate arrangement was upended when Sinn Fein, which hopes for a united Ireland one day, withdrew from a coalition with the Democratic Unionist Party, which wants Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/20/world/europe/northern-ireland-stormont-adams.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 07:54 AM

And why did they withdraw, Keith? Are you to blame if you withdraw for good reasons?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 08:30 AM

!The "situation in NI" is due the their mad sectarian politics, but we were discussing direct rule."
For Christ's sake Keith - the only sectarianism is yours
Northern Ireland is now approaching parity between the two groups - the terrorist linked DUP is fighting desperately to maintain its influence and is now in a cleft stick because of Brexit - they don't know which way to turn
Very shortly they are going to have to give Britain a bung for their support
It is sectarian Billy-Boy hatred like yours that has filled body bags throughout the length of the 20th century
It was the Unionists who introduced the gun into 20th century Irish politics in the first place - now it is sortting itself out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 09:17 AM

If you care to read up the implications of the closure of the Peace Talks, which happened because the Nationalists decided they had reached stalemate, the only threat is a rerun of elections to decide who should Govern the North - nothing to do with "violence"
The threat of violence coms from the possible closure of the Border (again) and direct rule from London
Read what you put up - the only mention of paramilitary violence mentioned is that by Unionist thugs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 10:12 AM

And why did they withdraw, Keith? Are you to blame if you withdraw for good reasons?

What do you think of their reason Steve?
Was it worth depriving NI of a Parliament so that the only people now representing NI at all are the 5 DUP MPs at Westminster?

That is what they achieved by bringing down the Stormont Parliament.
Was it a good idea? Has it achieved anything for any of the people of NI?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 10:20 AM

Jim,
The threat of violence coms from the possible closure of the Border (again)

If it is closed, it will not be by UK.
There is no need to close it.
Why is IR/EU threatening that and why blame UK?

The cross border trade is a tiny, trivial proportion of EU trade.
They can afford to leave it free so everyone wins.

This is all about punishment and trying to prevent a successful Brexit which EU fears above all else.
They will put every possible obstacle in the path of a successful brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 10:25 AM

You have your answer in your own article Keith
The People of Ireland have never, up to now, included the Catholic minority
Now they are nearly the political majority they are able to have a say in whether they should be part of Ireland or Britain
Brexit has halped create this position by forcing the DUP whether to become part of a Britain outside Europe or remain as part of the EU
ONE MORE TIME
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 11:57 AM

"They will put every possible obstacle in the path of a successful brexit."

Good. Then, hopefully, the whole ludicrous debacle of BrexShit, which has been dumped on the majority of the electorate by a racist, xenophobic, feeble-minded minority who enjoy taking it up the arse from a small group of immensely-wealthy tax-exiles, will be abandoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 11:59 AM

"Every opinion I have expressed on this thread is my own"

I wonder if that includes the pound "soaring" after a rise of one half of one cent. (less than falf of one percent.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 12:01 PM

PS Martin McGuiness died shortly after resigning. Gives you a bit of a clue as to why he resigned.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 12:06 PM

Another PS.

There are TEN not FIVE DUP MP's in Westminster.

Yet another example of your grasp of politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 12:17 PM

Sorry cousin McG, you are right. I just couldn't resist it. Mea Culpa.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 12:40 PM

"If it is closed, it will not be by UK."
The Border will be closed because of Brexit
Why should part of Britain have rights no other non-member has?
Britain took the decision to withdraw - the border is one of the consequences - it is Britain who took this decision, not the EC
You are becoming stupidly repetitive now
"They can afford to leave it free so everyone wins."
Do not be stupid Keith - The North is part of Britain on the insistence of the DUP - why should Ireland make any sacrifices?
You really are a desperately stupid man if you think somebody can actually leave an organisation and still reap the benfits of membership
Tell you what - why can't Britain just tell Norther Ireland to piss off and go and be a part of mainland Ireland - wouldn't that solve everything?
It's only a terrorist based party that is preventing that from happening and it's the same party who is now threatening to draw support for the British Government
Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 02:39 PM

More good news from Guido. The man that tells it like it is!


http://commentcentral.co.uk/remainers-are-programmed-to-ignore-the-brexit-good-news/

Now stand by for the mudrat's chorus!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 05:04 PM

Seen any sign of your personal Unicorn yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 05:14 PM

a racist, xenophobic, feeble-minded minority who enjoy taking it up the arse from a small group of immensely-wealthy tax-exiles

Boy, sounds just like our tRump supporters who are absulutely JUBILANT that they're going to be taking it up the ass with the new tax bill.

Go figure!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 05:24 PM

Well I won't click on that!

You're being an idiot, Iains. There are three people who you could even remotely hope to impress with these childish right-wing links and only one of them is still here. He's the one I shall now address.

Keith, still no answer. The question once again: if you pull out for good reason, is that not OK? If you disagree, tell me why. So far, you've failed, just shilly-shallying around with your ideological waffle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:47 AM

At the risk of being an armchair psychologist, I think the reaction to Trump's tax changes is understandable - it is seen as him overcoming challenges after a long battle, and a harbinger of him doing so in some of the promises he made they see as personally advantageous. If you like, they see it as reaffirming the vote they made in the first place.

I predict disappointment to come.

We could get a similar effect here. To date, there is nothing that has happened to give the Leavers the same boost. But if the EU, for example, were to concede to no payments, we would see the same. In the meantime the Leavers have to live on "we won, get over it".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:48 AM

"http://commentcentral.co.uk/remainers-are-programmed-to-ignore-the-brexit-good-news/ "
The blogged views of an untraceable individual on a site with extreme right wing Tory links who is arguing that everybody who opposes Brexit (remind us how many voted against it) have been brainwashed to do so
What is there to say more than that Iains?
Your blogger will find his place in heaven next to extremist right winger, Guido Fawkes and the Russian billionaire who believes Assad has been sadly misjudged.
Where is there a single shred of information in your linked outpourings of opinion?
You people continue to shuffle around the facts of Brexit - that it was a bad idea sold on Xenophobia and has been totally bungled to crisis point by an idiotic Government who even threw away their own majority.
If more proof were needed, look to the swing away from these clowns at the last election to judge how many voters have changed their mind

If you think Brexit has been difficult, just wait until agreement has been reached - if it ever will be!
There are 1.5 million Brits living in Europe at the present time - at the last count 30,000 of them were drawing unemployment benefit.
Are there secret discussions taking place to ascertain that these people will be allowed to stay on (and continue drawing dole) or is the Government busy creating jobs and accommodation for when they have to return.
So far, it is only dribbles of pee that have hit the fan - wait till the real turds start flying!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:57 AM

The mudrats chorused, as predicted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 04:06 AM

More positioning from Rees-Mogg, I think. He knows it incredibly unlikely the Brexit team can get these demands agreed, but I suspect is aiming more at getting any angry voters on his side come the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 04:56 AM

"The mudrats chorused, as predicted."
The lack of response from you was equally predicted
You have no interest in argument or even discussion Iains - you are mindlessly using this thread as an attempt to promote a decision that has provd catastrophic to the British people as a whole
AS with all 'patriots' your loyalty lies with the Tory right - the Brits may just as well go sleep in the park as your attitude showed when you suggested that the victims of the Grenfell Tower fire should be left to fend for themselves rather than allow them the use of vacant property
You are no more than an Establishment 'tart without a heart'
Keep it up - you impress no-one with your vacuous insult and you provide a useful example of a society that doesn't give a fuck
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:26 AM

Rag,
"Every opinion I have expressed on this thread is my own"

I wonder if that includes the pound "soaring" after a rise of one half of one cent. (less than falf of one percent.)

I never expressed that opinion.
My point was that that you were wrong about the growth figures being bad. That was my opinion and I backed it with reports in both the Telegraph and Independent which both said the growth figures were good.

I did not choose them for their comments on the currency, but you people chose to make an issue of that.
I did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:35 AM

Jim,
"If it is closed, it will not be by UK."
The Border will be closed because of Brexit

Yes, but it does not need to be. That is my point.

Do not be stupid Keith - The North is part of Britain on the insistence of the DUP - why should Ireland make any sacrifices?

They should not. Closing the border would be a massive blow to them and EU should not force it on them just to punish us.

You really are a desperately stupid man if you think somebody can actually leave an organisation and still reap the benfits of membership

We do not want any of the "benefits."
We would like free trade, but other non members have that and without paying either.

Tell you what - why can't Britain just tell Norther Ireland to piss off and go and be a part of mainland Ireland - wouldn't that solve everything?

Sadly no. They have to want it. We believe in their right to self determination.

It's only a terrorist based party that is preventing that from happening

No. It is the will of the Irish people.

Too many points for one post again Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:42 AM

Steve,
Keith, still no answer. The question once again: if you pull out for good reason, is that no OK?

I did answer. I do not think that any reason is good enough for depriving the people of NI of their Parliament, and depriving the Nationalist people of NI of any representation at all.

Do you think their reason for doing that was a good one?
Do you even know what it was?
Do you know it was nothing to do with Brexit and this is just another of Jim's thread hijackings?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:57 AM

"Closing the border would be a massive blow to them and EU "
Closing the border is simply returning to the same position as anybody outside of the EU
The border was closed right up to a few decades ago - Britain being part of Europe opened it up and Britain's leaving has now threatened to close it
Ireland is full of European workers at present and they are all welcomed as an asset to the economy
At present Europeans are LEAVING BRITAIN in their thousands, thanks to the inescure future brought about by Brexit
Do you think the Xenophobes who voted for Brexit will be happy when Europeans from Ireland start crossing into the North and then into mainland Britain through an open Border?
That will be a betrayal of what they voted for - getting rid of foreigners
This is the great contradiction of Brexit - a move to stop immigration while at the same creating a situation where Brits abroad, including 30,000 unemployed, are quite likely to be forced to move back to a Britain that can't cope with shortages in health care, housing and employment
Your mindless repetition of Europe forcing a closed border is reaching the point of imbecility


"Too many points for one post again Jim."
You really shouldn't be here if you can't follow the argument
You are using "too many posts" to avoid honestly responding to any of them
All these points have been raised before and you and your mates have ignored them all persistently and are continuing to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:05 AM

Didn't finish
Your repetition of Europe "forcing a closed border" has reached the point of imbecility
BRITAIN HAS CHOSEN TO LEAVE EUROPE - IN DOING SO, THEY HAVE ABANDONED ANY CLAIM TO THE RIGHTS OF EUROPEAN MEMBERSHIP
AS OUTSIDERS, THEY ARE SUBJECT TO THE SAME FRONTIER LAWS AS ANY NON-MEMBER - THE SAME LAWS THAT BRITAIN IMPOSES ON EVERY FOREIGN NATIONAL WISHING TO ENTER.
NOW YOU ARE BLAMING THE ORGANISATION IT HAS CHOSEN TO LEAVE FOR THE CONSEQUENCES OF LEAVING - UTTERLY IMBECILIC
(The red highlighting is to help you with the points you are having difficulty with)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:29 AM

Jim,
The border was closed right up to a few decades ago - Britain being part of Europe opened it up and Britain's leaving has now threatened to close it

Not true. It was only a security border not a trade or tariff border.
It was opened by the ending of the troubles.

Ireland is full of European workers at present and they are all welcomed as an asset to the economy

Yes, here too.

Do you think the Xenophobes who voted for Brexit will be happy when Europeans from Ireland start crossing into the North and then into mainland Britain through an open Border?

Who cares what xenophobes think? Visitors from EU will always be welcome here.

That will be a betrayal of what they voted for - getting rid of foreigners

Who cares what xenophobes think. The rest of us did not vote for that.

Your mindless repetition of Europe forcing a closed border is reaching the point of imbecility

Sorry, but it is a fact that UK has declared it will not impose one but EU is threatening to.

BRITAIN HAS CHOSEN TO LEAVE EUROPE - IN DOING SO, THEY HAVE ABANDONED ANY CLAIM TO THE RIGHTS OF EUROPEAN MEMBERSHIP

Yes. Obviously.

AS OUTSIDERS, THEY ARE SUBJECT TO THE SAME FRONTIER LAWS AS ANY NON-MEMBER -
Yes, and none of them require border posts.

THE SAME LAWS THAT BRITAIN IMPOSES ON EVERY FOREIGN NATIONAL WISHING TO ENTER.

UK and Ireland both allow people from EU to enter and that will continue after Brexit, so it is not an issue.

Too many points at a time again Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:57 AM

your view on the content and timing of what are being reported as "nine new red lines" by Rees Mogg and co?

(Personally, I don't that all are reasonably described as 'new' but it is at least fair to call them re-emphasised).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:59 AM

I am making an impressive mess of this. First the wrong thread, then only half of it copied! What it is supposed to say is:

Moving on from well-tilled ground, Keith, what your view on the content and timing of what are being reported as "nine new red lines" by Rees Mogg and co?

(Personally, I don't that all are reasonably described as 'new' but it is at least fair to call them re-emphasised).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:16 AM

Amusing examples of politicians at work today. In those red lines it says trade deal agreed by 2018. Andre Marr spoke to Rees Mogg and asked if was a misprint and should be 2019. Of course, agreed Jacob, he isn't changing the date, it is a simple misprint.

A little later, over on Peston another minister insists he did mean 2018 and that is quite right.

That's real life for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:18 AM

"Yes, and none of them require border posts."
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR ******* MIND?
"UK and Ireland both allow people from EU to enter"
"UK and Ireland both allow people from EU to enter and that will continue after Brexit, so it is not an issue."
A typical half truth - work permits will be necessary and that means border checks
That is what the Irish row is about, you stupid little man - whether the border will be a land one or a sea one.
"EU citizens will still be able to travel to and live in Britain after Brexit under new immigration plans, it has been reported.
But a system of permits will limit the number of working migrants under the Home Office proposals.
Theresa May said on July 31 that it was “wrong” to suggest free movement of people will “continue as it is now” after March 2019.
After this date, EU workers moving to the UK will have to register until a permanent post-Brexit immigration policy is put in place.
In September, a leaked Home Office paper revealed the UK plans to cap the number of low-skilled EU migrants - confirming an end to free movement after Brexit."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2822423/eu-citizens-uk-after-brexit-freedom-of-movement-visas-immigration-figures/
"Too many points at a time again Jim."
This is getting more and more like talking to a child with learning difficulties
I'm only responding to your inanities because you are presenting a perfect example of the ignorance, arrogance and ill-thought out nature of Brexit
If you can't keep upo piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 08:23 AM

A typical half truth - work permits will be necessary and that means border checks

No it does not.
They free to come but can not legally obtain work while they are here. EU citizens will no longer have a privileged position over non-Europeans, which is actually racist.

Well done on restricting yourself to one point this time.
Thanks Jim.

DMcG, I agree with Rees Mogg and everything he said on Marr today.
You?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 08:47 AM

"EU citizens will no longer have a privileged position over non-Europeans, which is actually racist."

You mean non-Europeans like Aussies, Kiwis, Yanks and Canadians? So what race do they belong to, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:07 AM

"No it does not. "
For Christ's sake Keith - you've just been an official account of what non citizens have to do to enter Europe
Is that faked?
Eurpeans living in Britain will fave four months grace before they have to
apply for a work-permit
Racist -are you mad!!!!
The E.U. removed a huge amount of racism in Britain - Brexit was fought on racism and stands to replace all the barriers again
Squalid, squalid argument
I ask again - is little Britain going to be happy to see Europeans entering their country via Ireland, as you are proposing?
"Well done on restricting yourself to one point this time.
Thanks Jim"
Not for your benefit Keith - the last posting was an addenda to everything I have posted and which you have ignored, and will continue to do so
This gets more and more mindless - you never have managed to shake your lifelong practice of humiliating yourself in publi, have you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:22 AM

I don't think the signatories believe they are achievable by any negotiation, Keith, and not the day (or perhaps the fortnight) before an agreed position has to be announced. It seems to be more about positioning than actually achieving anything more concrete.

For example if Ireland/the EU needs to be convinced that there is some mechanism for harmonised regulation across the border to prevent a hard border I would be astonished if they could agree to no regulations after 2019 having an effect.   The same is true for EU residents in the UK and the role of the ECJ.

So this all 'hard Brexit', so in effect no agreement. Which does require a hard border, in most people's opinion, though I accept you don't think so. And I believe that is the worst possible deal - again, I know you don't agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 02:08 PM

DMcG,
Which does require a hard border, in most people's opinion, though I accept you don't think so.

Neither does UK government and neither does the head of HM Revenue and Customs.

Jim, anyone that Ireland allows to enter is welcome to enter UK.
UK will not be stopping anyone at the border.
We do not want or need a hard border.

Racist -are you mad!!!!

Yes. Giving preference to Europeans over other groups, Asians and Africans for instance, would be racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:08 PM

"Jim, anyone that Ireland allows to enter is welcome to enter UK.
UK will not be stopping anyone at the border.
We do not want or need a hard border."
Don't be stupd again Keith
People who wish to stay in Britain wll be granted four weeks to do so, people seeking to work there will need to acquire a work permit
The point of Brexit was to keep foreigners out - now you are claiming that the Government lied and people are free to work there as long as they enter via Ireland - how stupid can you get?
That has what has been destroyed by Brexit and the opposite is the case
Unless the million plus Brits live in Europe
I ask again and will continue to do so until you respond (because I new fully enjoy watching you humiliate yourself
is little Britain going to be happy to see Europeans entering their country via Ireland, as you are proposing?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:31 PM

Jim,
People who wish to stay in Britain wll be granted four weeks to do so, people seeking to work there will need to acquire a work permit

Now you are just making stuff up.
UK has stated it will not stop any EU people coming and staying as long as they want.

The point of Brexit was to keep foreigners out

If you mean control migration then yes.
EU citizens can come and stay as long as they want but will not have access to benefits or the right to work. That does not require border controls.

is little Britain going to be happy to see Europeans entering their country via Ireland, as you are proposing?

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:33 PM

Oh dear, No mention of Martin McGuinness or five (or ten) DUP MP's.

Must have been too much for him to cope with.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 04:33 PM

The position paper can be downloaded from here

It does say there must not be a hard border. But there are a lot of caveats: "as frictionless as possible" for example (So some friction then? How?) And so on. Anyway, this is today's reading exercise. Tomorrow is another day...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 03:26 AM

From the Guardian, 4th December:

====
May had been given the deadline of Monday 4 December to table the offers before a European council summit on 14 December, when EU leaders will decide if "sufficient progress" has been made to proceed to the next phase.


But although the money and citizens' rights issues have been mostly resolved, the future arrangement with Ireland has remained a significant obstacle because the British government has yet to offer a firm commitment explaining how it will guarantee avoiding a return to a hard border after Brexit.
[...]
Chances of a deal with British officials had been put at 50:50 on Sunday afternoon, but at midnight Brussels time, officials said an agreement had not been reached.

====

I haven't seen a reference anywhere else to the midnight statement. Of course, we may still be playing brinkmanship.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 03:55 AM

"UK has stated it will not stop any EU people coming and staying as long as they want. yes"
You are mad!!!!
The Irish live and work in Britain because of a 'special arrangement' agreed to in 1922
The idea that European will b able to continue to enter Britain via Ireland after Brexit goes against very promise of those campaigning to leave
May's statement says that the aim is to limit foreign workers by limiting the flow from Europe as well as elsewhere
"a system of permits will limit the number of working migrants under the Home Office proposals."
Theresa May said on July 31 that it was “wrong” to suggest free movement of people will “continue as it is now” after March 2019.
After this date, EU workers moving to the UK will have to register until a permanent post-Brexit immigration policy is put in place.
In September, a leaked Home Office paper revealed the UK plans to cap the number of low-skilled EU migrants - confirming an end to free movement after Brexit.
Freedom of movement allows EU citizens to live and work in and in certain circumstances access the welfare system of any other EU country.
The government document, dated August 2017, spells out dramatic plans to slash the number of Europeans entering Britain.
Bosses may also be forced to recruit British workers first before looking overseas.
And ministers may restrict new work permits to occupations where there is a shortage of workers
"No border posts"
The border checks for Europeans coming in will be exactly the same as those in Europe restricting non member citizens - after Brexit the Brits in Europe will be subject to the same restrictions.
Tou are making things up
Until you and Iains start responding honestly to the situation hyou are just haunting this thread like smelly farts
What the fuck do you think all the argument about the Irish border is about if a Little Brit like you can just declare it is not needed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 04:44 AM

Jim, migrants come to work here and receive help if not working.
Europeans are free to come here but they will not be allowed to work without a permit or receive benefits.
We will not be stopping people entering from Europe, but Europeans will no longer be given preference to settle over Africans and Asians which I would describe as racist.

You say it is mad, but it seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 04:48 AM

Rag,
Oh dear, No mention of Martin McGuinness or five (or ten) DUP MP's.

Rag, we all know since the last election that there are 10 DUP MPs who shore up the government.
I had been discussing the 5 dissidents from the Brexit committee and made a simple slip.
Shame on me, but I am only human and I was bound to make a mistake one day and there it is.

What do you want to know about McGuiness? Is it relevant to Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 05:10 AM

"Jim, migrants come to work here and receive help if not working."
Britain is claiming special privileges from Europe not granted to non-members when we leave, yet you are suggestion that should not be reciprocated towards Europeans wishing to lve in Britain
You're as mad as a bag of frogs Keith
To confirm that insanity, you are saying that the demands by Europe by the Irish Government and the DUP that there should be no closed border - either inland or on the coast, are not necessary because the British would be quite happy for Polish painters to use Ireland as an entry point to Britain rather than Heathrow
I reckon that Little Englanders like you should be forced to wear bells around their necks to warn the rest of us that you are in the vicinity!
"but I am only human "
Another claim that you can't prove!
Since when have humans lived on the Planet Zog?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 05:57 AM

Another cat thrown among the already toxic Brexit pigeons
Leading immigration lawyer, Simon Cox has suggested that Brexit will give the British Government the right to deport Irish citizens
That should really help things along
Is that too much information for you to deal with Keith?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:19 AM

Britain is claiming special privileges from Europe not granted to non-members when we leave,

Not true Jim.
We are asking for free trade, but other non members enjoy that for free already, and it would be mutually beneficial.

yet you are suggestion that should not be reciprocated towards Europeans wishing to lve in Britain

No I am not.

To confirm that insanity, you are saying that the demands by Europe by the Irish Government and the DUP that there should be no closed border - either inland or on the coast, are not necessary because the British would be quite happy for Polish painters to use Ireland as an entry point to Britain rather than Heathrow

They can come in either way and welcome, but they will need a permit to work while they are here.

Since when have humans lived on the Planet Zog?

No exo-planet has been found with any life at all Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:58 AM

No exo-planet has been found with any life at all Jim."

There's no sign of intelligent life on this one either Bones.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 07:34 AM

"No exo-planet has been found with any life at all Jim."

There's no sign of intelligent life on this one either Bones."

I went to the exercise class this morning and everyone was doing their workouts wearing duffle coats and wellies.

I thought to myself, it's gym life, but not as we know it...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 12:03 PM

So the DUP have shat on May today. So near yet so far... no concessions to Dublin! I will not sit doyn with the men who sit doyn with the men who sit doyn...No popery! Never, never, NEVER!

Oh, and another twenty Tory MPs sharpening their knives. Not a great call, that election, was it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 12:33 PM

Should corbyn ever get in you will be able to have grandstand seats to a real disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 01:17 PM

"Not true Jim."
'Course it it Keith -in't it always!!!
Academic anyway at present - the agreement reached by Britain and Ireland today was scuppers by a phone call from the DUP
Here we go Round the Mulberry Bush again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 01:41 PM

"Should corbyn ever get in you will be able to have grandstand seats to a real disaster."
Maybe we should get May Morning Dew to call another election - that should get him in with a comfortable majority
Whoever follows May Blossom couldn't make a greater feck-up than she has...... whoops, forgot about Boris Johnson and Damian Green and Philip Hammond and Amber Rudd and David Davis and William Rees Mogg.....
Mind you - Green has shown he's got what it takes to hold office (or hold something!!!)
Amber Rudd is a bit busy saving Phillip Hammond from being sacked and David Davis is doing the same for Damien Green, Reese mogg has been laughed out of the race
Which leaves Boris - he's just the negotiator to get Brexit through
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 02:05 PM

" May Morning Dew"
A tad hypocritical you mudrats, doncha think?

"Until you and Iains start responding honestly to the situation hyou are just haunting this thread like smelly farts"

You call certain of us juvenile yet your little gem above is worthy of all we left behind in the lower classes of junior school. What a stunning command of English you have!

(and do try proofreading before you post. It would help us decipher what you are trying to babble about)
What an earth is hyou when it is home? An incantation to the God of bullshit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 02:57 PM

"A tad hypocritical you mudrats, doncha think?"
You still are not responding to anything Iains - a tad typical, doncha think?
"hyou "
Mire typo's - an indication that you'd run out of ideas if you had ever been guilty of harbouring such things
I've just given you a load of Tory fuck-ups masquerading as politicians and all you can to is hurl childish abuse - says all that need to be said, doncha think
Grow up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 09:43 AM

The unedifying sight of a small bunch of knuckledragging bigoted pseudo-British gobshites holding the weak and ineffectually tory government by their shrivelled, husklike bollocks is one of the most pathetic sights I have ever seen. It's a nadir in democracy for this country.

Well done Brexiteers, you gave control to people of ignorance, bigotry and violence. You stupid twats.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 11:14 AM

Mr Rees Mogg for PM. All we need for brexit to go with a bang!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 11:39 AM

"What do you want know about Martin McGuinness, is it relevant to Brexit"

Hmmm .............

I seem to recall that YOU brought up the subject of Martin MCGuinness, so you tell me eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 11:41 AM

Sadly Iains those "bangs" may be the sound of bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 11:44 AM

Still no comment on the actual situation of Brexit
Yaeterday's negotiations failed because an extremist sectarian party with terrorist links, who was apparently informed of Britain's intentions in advance of their being discussed with the EU representatives, phoned the PM and told her she no longer had their support in the negotiations.
THey have announced that the Northern Counties withdrawal from Europe must be exactly the same as that of Britain in order to ensure that it remains part of the UK
This more or less scuppers any hope of an open border between North and South.
Leader of the DUP, Arlene Foster, (still up top her arse in economic scandals) has called off the planned meeting between her and 'May or May Not' which calls into question there being a settlement before the end of the Year - The Sectarian Tail is now happily wagging the British poodle
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 11:54 AM

May made her bed, and now she's having to lie in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 12:07 PM

" and now she's having to lie in it."
Not on her own since she climbed into bed with the DUP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 12:11 PM

But, pushing the analogy, we all have to sleep in the damn bed as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 01:06 PM

phoned the PM and told her she no longer had their support in the negotiations.

Obviously the Unionist people would never accept different status to the rest of the UK, so obviously their representatives stopped it.
Who was surprised?

Would Eire accept different status to rest of EU to help negotiations along?
I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 01:13 PM

Obviously the Unionist people would never accept different status to the rest of the UK, so obviously their representatives stopped it.
Who was surprised?

May, Davis and the whole UK negotiating team, apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 01:18 PM

It was not true that UK had ever agreed to it.
It was leaked by Dublin that it had and the media took it up, but it was never true.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 01:47 PM

"It was leaked by Dublin"
The trrrorist linked DUP claimed this, Dublin has pointed out that they had no part of it and were not briefed themselves as they were not part of the negotiations
But you believe the terrorist linked political party if you wish - as I'm sure you will
Maggie May's troubles seem to be stacking up like No 14 buses at present
It has emerged that her own ministers and backbenchers are split on the objectives on Brexit
One crowd wish to concentrate on maintaining trade links with Europe while the other wish to move away and open up trade with other countries, particularly Trump's US
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 02:04 PM

So, if the DUP removed their support in the single most important issue to face the U.K. since the end of WW2, how much will be deducted by Old Weak 'n' Wobbly from the 1.5 million she promised the DUP in return for their support?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 02:18 PM

1.5 BILLION!! Buggerbuggerbugger!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 02:36 PM

Dublin has pointed out that they had no part of it

OK, but it was leaked to RTE, so despite their denials Dublin is the most likely culprit.

Sin Fein is a party with terrorist links Jim. Do you object to them representing Irish people?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 03:01 PM

"Sin Fein is a party with terrorist links Jim. "
Sinn Fein has moved on and is regarded a respectable party - both North and South
Nobody has an objection to them representing the Irish people, as shown by the present situation where in the last election the DUP too 28.1 per cent of the vote and Sinn F?in 27.9 per cent.
The DUP still retains its arrogantly SECTARIAN STANCE
"Dublin is the most likely culprit."
Why - it is in the interest of Dublin that the deal should go ahead - why should they leak the document (they had no access to) and scupper that deal?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 03:04 PM

why should they leak the document (they had no access to) and scupper that deal?

Why would anyone, but it was leaked and of course they had access to it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 03:41 PM

Can't even get the name of the political party correct !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 04:39 PM

Can't even get the name of the political party correct !!!

Aye. I think people often use 'Conservative Party' in place of 'bunch of self serving tossers'

Oh, sorry, is that not the one you meant?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 07:50 PM

"Why would anyone, but it was leaked and of course they had access to it!"
It hasd been suggested that right wing sympathisers leaked it
The Tory Right, led by Rees Mogg has already protested that at no cost must the position of Unionist Ireland be compromised as "We are members of the Conservative and Unionist Party" - Prime suspects I would say.
You never fail to leap to the defence of bigots, terrorist states, and racist has-beens like Ukip, do you?
I 've just won a bet with myself as to whose side you'd be on in all this - the bowler hatted and besashed bigots win every time with you, don't they?
It is not coincidental that the old sectarian Unionists have now turned to RACISM to fill their empty hours
Let's hear it for that pastime Keith!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:00 AM

Keith said: [Unionist would not accept it] Who was surprised?

I said: May, Davis and the whole UK negotiating team, apparently.

Keith said: It was not true that the UK ever agreed to it

Strictly speaking that is right, since May would have been the one to make such a formal announcement. But if the UK would not have been about to agree the DUP telephone call was of no significance whatsoever and therefore any leak of the wording would not have affected anything because, you claim, there was not going to be an agreement.

Given that the DUP did make the call and it does appear to have an effect, I think I am right is my original response.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:34 AM

I should explain I didn't post that to say 'I am right': that is of little importance in the scheme of things. It was more to make clear that Davis is far less prepared for these negotiations than his supporters might hope. Moreover, this is all of a piece with the claims from some quarters that the reason the release of the impact papers was so hard fought and is still being fought is that they are so "thin".    and that in its turn means that the hard questions like Scotland's response to the DUP has not been considered.

While we think it a crazy idea in the first place, every remained I know want Brexit to be as beneficial to the country as possible. That means we need faith that the negotiators are up to the job. Such public humiliation damages that. And it is important that leavers say "This is not good enough" as well.

There was a comment in the Irish Times that I thought a good one. To all appearances, the U.K. Was about to ready to make concessions on every one of the EU demands when it had previously refused to.   What does that say about its ability to make deals that are good for the UK post Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 03:39 AM

Wake up call for the little Englanders. Try to read and learn instead of finding excuses and reasons to dispute it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:01 AM

"but it was leaked and of course they had access to it!"
Can you prove this Keith?
They had the assurances of Europe that no deal would be made without that was detrimental to the Irish people - an assurance that the EU would protect its own members.
That was public knowledge, the details of the proposals were not.
You are inventing things Keith and you are doing so to protect the only people who were going to lose out if the deapl went through - the DUP.
It's all a little irrelevant anyway - what does it matter who leaked the proposals - it was the DUP who have scuppered them and set Brexit back, while at the same time making the Government look both ruthless and extremely inept, for which we should all be grateful because that is exactly what they have been from day one.
I have no doubt that, following this circus that stands to run longer than 'The Mousetrap', should a new referendum be called, Brexit wouldn't stand a chance.
I also have little doubt that, given the fact that what the DUP is demanding for the Six Counties has been shown to be in direct conflict with the interest of the people living there, that they wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of maintaining a majority.
Stop defending sectarian terrorism Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:09 AM

May and her team are adamant they would never have accepted different terms for different parts of the Union.
The DUP phone call likely resulted from them reading in the press and hearing on the air that it was accepted when it never was.
As David Davis said yesterday, no UK government would accept that.


"Sources in Brussels however said that though officials on both sides were in broad agreement over the solution to the problem, Downing Street has so far felt unable to sign off on it.
RTE says the draft deal said: ?In the absence of agreed solutions the UK will ensure that there continues to be no divergence from those rules of the internal market and the customs union which, now or in the future, support North South cooperation and the protection of the Good Friday Agreement.? "

"The PM has been clear that the UK is leaving the European Union as a whole and the territorial and economic integrity of the United Kingdom will be protected," the Prime Minister's spokesperson said.
Speaking at Stormont DUP leader Arlene Foster said: ?We note the speculation emanating from the European Union exit talks regarding the Republic of Ireland and United Kingdom border.
"We have been very clear. Northern Ireland must leave the EU on the same terms as the rest of the United Kingdom. We will not accept any form of regulatory divergence which separates Northern Ireland economically or politically from the rest of the United Kingdom. The economic and constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom will not be compromised in any way.
"Her Majesty?s Government understands the DUP position.? The Prime Minister has told the House of Commons that there will be no border in the Irish Sea. The Prime Minister has been clear that the UK is leaving the European Union as a whole and the territorial and economic integrity of the United Kingdom will be protected.
"We want to see a sensible Brexit where the Common Travel Area is continued, we meet our financial obligations, have a strictly time limited implementation period and where the contribution of EU migrants to our economy is recognised in a practical manner.
"The Republic of Ireland claim to be guarantors of the Belfast Agreement but they are clearly seeking to unilaterally change the Belfast Agreement without our input or consent.?
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/arlene-foster-says-dup-will-not-accept-brexit-divergence-which-separates-northern-ireland-from-rest-of-uk-36377055.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:13 AM

Jim,
what does it matter who leaked the proposals - it was the DUP who have scuppered them

They did not need to scupper them.
They were never going to be accepted.

Stop defending sectarian terrorism Keith

I never have nor would. I am not part of your mad sectarian split.
There is sectarian hate in your posts though Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:41 AM

Of course that is what they said yesterday when the negotiations so collapsed, Keith.   It doesn't make it more convincing. Note to complete silence that followed yesterday's response to the urgent question.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:06 AM

"There is sectarian hate in your posts though Jim."

No there is not. Like me, Jim detests the DUP and their fellow-traveller politicians for being on the wrong side of history, for their intolerant attitudes and for their current stance, which is nakedly no more than to oppose anything which they suspect is leading to what is inevitable sooner or later, a united Ireland. They are power-hungry and do not have the interests of anyone except their own squalid little cabal at heart. I have not seen a single word of hatred for any of the ordinary people of Northern Ireland, of either persuasion, from Jim. It ill-behoves you of all people to attack anyone for being blindly one-sided. And you won't get me going on that so don't waste your cyber-ink.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:28 AM

Adequately prepared?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:54 AM

On the subject of constant repetition

20 years of fake news about the EU

If the press barons are so keen on fooling people about the EU it should ring some alarm bells.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:58 AM

Like me, Jim detests the DUP

Do you both detest the Unionist community they represent?
Are they not "on the wrong side of history" too?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 06:10 AM

"They did not need to scupper them.
They were never going to be accepted"
Then why did the mindless twats put them forward?
"There is sectarian hate in your posts though Jim."
Not from me Keith
As an atheist I am a neural on all religions - they are all irrational superstition to me, but those who ish to follow them are free to do so as long as they don't interfere with the running of our society.
I detest all forms of sectariianism, whether it be between different brand of religions, colour, culture, race... humanity is humanity
Just a reminder of where sectarianism arose in Ireland
The Unionists were the first to introduce the gun into 20th century politics here - they did so on the basis of "fuck the Pope - Home Rule is Rome Rule - sectarianism
They sighned a covenant which declared the intention to go to war if ever home rule was introduced.
Britain deliberately created a sectarian state - at first intending to include the whole of Ulster, but whan they di teh math they cut out the three counties that would put the Catholics in charge.
They oversaw the creation of a fiercely divided state with bigots in charge - Catholics were deliberately disadvantaged by land divisions, a vote dependent on land ownership, regular anti-Catholic riots and employment boycots and annual triumphalist displays of superiority.
Members of my family, two parents, to young girls andboy toddler, were forced to flee Protestant Derry when their home was burned around their ears.
When the Catholics had had enough and began to protest, their peaceful marches were steered by the RUC through screaming mobs of stone-throwing bigoted thugs
Even then, the first bloodletting of 'The Troubles' was carried out by thuggish Loyalist killers in McGurk's Bar.
During the inevitable violence that erupted from all this, the British Troops sent in to supposedly keep the two factions apart sided and even colluded with the Loyalist terrorists.
The occupying army carried out atrocities of their own, including a massacre of innocent non-combatant demonstrators, imprisonment without trial and now, it transpires, torture.
You hatred of the Irish, describing Irish children as being "brainwashed to hate Britain" is well established on this forum, so don't you dare accuse me of sectarianism.
Given the behaviour of the English/British over eight centuries, it would be understandable if the Irish hated the British
The miracle is that they don't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 06:15 AM

"Do you both detest the Unionist community they represent?"
There is no such thing as a "Unionist" community Keith - a sign of your bigotry is that you should believe there is
Unionism is a political/religious belief - not a community - Ireland is no different than any other country apart from the fact that it has been artificially divided into two parts by a foreign power - a remnant of Empire
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 06:23 AM

The article by Naomi O’Leary that I linked earlier makes some good points in that respect, Jim. I would recommend it to all who are ignorant of the politics of Ireland, not as a definitive work on those politics, but simply as a starting point to show just how ignorant most of us English are in that respect.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 06:38 AM

Ha the jokes on you, Trump recognizes Jerusalem the new capitol of Israel, London the real Mecca of the Muslim world and Trump Tower the real White House of the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:13 AM

Two items of interest in the news
Arlene Foster has ruled out any meeting with May Blossom until there is something on offer or the DUP (as if a £1 billion bung wasn't enough!)
Another example of the tail wagging the poodle.
David Davis has just admitted than no survey has been carried out in the impact Brexit will have on the British Exonomy
It's time for the Great Brexit Lemming Show folks or it will be when someone gets their act together
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:19 AM

The political climate here has apparently turned liberals into virulent hot heads.
As some of you suspect I am the real life Larry David who says the wrong thing at the right time. Over the last decade I have identified with our English cousins here to the point I think in terms of a UK perspective in everything from driving on the LEFT to feeling exasperated with Brexit voters.

So I am in the Christmas decorated Mall walking into Pennys when a cute couple are walking out blocking me from entering on the right. I go to the 'extreme right' against the 'wall' to enter.
But I had to open my mouth. Avoiding a collision I said "I'm an American, I even walk on the right". The couple's smiles turned downward and three seconds later from behind me they both yelled " FUCK YOU ". I figured out why they thought I was a Trump Nazi type, but felt good about their leftist gumption. My wife however was appalled and the incident further strengthened her opinion that I am a closet right wing bigot.

cue Curb your Enthusiasm music.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:24 AM

Jerusalem the new capitol of Israel

Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel for three thousand years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:37 AM

This is not about Israel as you have been quick to point out
Go open a thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:38 AM

Jim,
There is no such thing as a "Unionist" community Keith

Yes there is Jim. The correct description of the two communities is Nationalist and Unionist. They are not best defined by religion these days when most people are not religious.

New Statesman,
"Most people in Northern Ireland identify as either nationalist or unionist"
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2017/02/northern-ireland-moving-past-nationalist-and-unionist-politics

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:40 AM

Start a new thread on it, troll. Whichever one of the two of you is posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:42 AM

That was to bobad/anonymous guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:55 AM

"Yes there is Jim"
No there isn't Keith - there are Catholic and Protestant communities - Unionism is a politico-religious philosophy
There are no Labour or Conservative communities in Britain - why on earth should things be different in Norther Ireland
What people identify themselves as does not make them vcommunities
Stop being crass, if you can manage it
The gap is so small now that within the next few years those differences will have leveled out anyway for all but sectarian bigots like yourself
Tou have ignored every other point about sectarian Ireland so I assume we're agreed on something
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 09:40 AM

I'm just correcting a factual error, no need to get your panties in a twist, fellas.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 12:08 PM

three seconds later from behind me they both yelled " FUCK YOU "

Now THERE'S the real Christmas spirit! Prob'ly tRUMP voters into the bargain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:12 PM

Jim,
There is no such thing as a "Unionist" community Keith

Yes there is Jim. The correct description of the two communities is Nationalist and Unionist. They are not best defined by religion these days when most people are not religious.

New Statesman,
"Most people in Northern Ireland identify as either nationalist or unionist"
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2017/02/northern-ireland-moving-past-nationalist-and-unionist-politics

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:19 PM

This can go on forever Keith, but not with my help
To your original point, the only detestation for a people on the Island of Ireland has come from you - as far back as you want to go
You are nitpicking this to avoid responding to the real point - Britain helped to create a sectarian state and has bent over backwards tio dened it since its inception
Move on or go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:55 PM

Jim, you lie.
the only detestation for a people on the Island of Ireland has come from you

It never, ever has.
I challenge and defy you to produce an example if that is not another of your filthy lies, Jim liar.

The Unionist community is so labelled because they wish to be left within the UK as they have been for centuries.
I agree with you and Steve that history is not going their way, and do not want to keep any part of Ireland within UK.
But, I do not "detest" them as Steve says you both do.
That is sectarian hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:20 PM

The Unionist parties are not sects. They are political organisations. It is not sectarian to detect political organisations. I detest the Tory party (have done all my life) and I detest the BNP. I detest Trump's version of Republicanism. I detest UKIP. I detest Likud. I do not detest individual supporters of any of those organisations (I tend to avoid 'em, or at least keep their politics at arm's length), though I may regard them as wrong-headed and delusional. On your side there are people who detest Hamas and Corbyn's version of Labour. You're not the number one fan of either yourself. Arguing for policies detrimental to one class or ethnic group in your country is what is sectarian, not doing your damnedest to oppose the policies of their political parties. That's called democracy, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:32 PM

"But, I do not "detest" them as Steve says you both do."
Steve doesn't speak for me but what Steve actually said was "Like me, Jim detests the DUP"
The DUP is is political party Definition - The Democratic Unionist Party is a unionist political party in Northern Ireland. Ian Paisley founded the DUP in 1971, during the Troubles, and led the party for the next 37 years. not a people
Would you accuse those who hate the BNP or Ukip or the Tories of being sectarian - are you really that stupid?
Feckin' eejit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:42 PM

I kind of assumed that you detested the DUP, Jim. Wasn't meaning to speak for you. Apologies!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 03:51 AM

Didn't assume for one minute you were speaking for me Steve - no apologies needed
It's this sectarian bigot who implied, as all of these clowns do, that we "pack" are a team
They don't respond to facts, instead they reduce these discussions to personal smears and nitpicking stupid arguments like claiming so show that raectionary political movements like Unionism are really "communities" and to critisciese them is "sectarian hatred"
They'd have probably argued the same in defence of Nazism - taking Keith's claim to its logical conclusion, the Nazis were a "community" - they certainly had popular support
They live in a world of "when you have no facts, make some up"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:15 AM

The Unionist parties are not sects. They are political organisations.

Obviously.
I was referring to the unionist community of NI.
Do you detest them or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:20 AM

He is just holding his hoops higher again, lads. If you carry on jumping you will end up losing ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:30 AM

He's talking through his suburban leafy bumbum, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:52 AM

"Do you detest them or not?"
There are no more "Unionist Communities" than there are "Conservative Communities"
Do you believe there to be culturally cleansed areas of Northern Ireland where only Unionists live - has Unionist sectarian bigotry really been that successful?
Northern Ireland is what it says on the label - "Irish"
Despite nearly a century's effort on the part of the Unionists, the population now lives and works together, one section doesn't have to sit at the back of the bus or use their own toilets - they are one population
Any division has been carefully fostered by British supported laws which made a third of the population second class citizens and made their lives a misery, and by annual displays of sectarian superiorty.
People of all denominations, in general, have always mixed socially and in every-day life
Do I hate Unionism - I most certainly do - it is a hate-filled, bigoted philosophy that has ben the cause of bloodshed and intolerance for over a century since it first produced it's hate filled COVENANT

"The Covenant signed by men read:
?Being convinced in our consciences that Home Rule would be disastrous to the material well-being of Ulster as well as the whole of Ireland, subversive of our civil and religious freedom, destructive of our citizenship, and perilous to the unity of the Empire, we, whose names are underwritten, men of Ulster, loyal subjects of His Gracious Majesty King George V, humbly relying on the God whom our fathers in days of stress and trial confidently trusted, do hereby pledge ourselves in solemn covenant throughout this our time of threatened calamity to stand by one another in defending for ourselves and our children our cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom, and in using all means which may be found necessary to defeat the present conspiracy to set up a Home Rule Parliament in Ireland. And in the event such a Parliament being forced upon us we further solemnly and mutually pledge ourselves to refuse to recognise its authority. In sure confidence that God will defend the right we hereto subscribe our names. And further, we individually declare that we have not already signed this covenant.God Save the King?

The Declaration signed by women read:
?We, whose names are underwritten, women of Ulster, and loyal subjects of our gracious King, being firmly persuaded that Home Rule would be disastrous to our Country, desire to associate ourselves with the men of Ulster in their uncompromising opposition to the Home Rule Bill now before Parliament, whereby it is proposed to drive Ulster out of her cherished place in the Constitution of the United Kingdom and to place her under the domination and control of a Parliament in Ireland. Praying that from this calamity God will save Ireland, we hereto subscribe our names.?!

That is what caused the hatred and bloodshed that has been a part of Irish life 1912, and has spilled over onto the British mainland for periods of time during the intervening years
Do I hate it - yes I ***** do
Why do you support it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 07:30 AM

Jim,
There are no more "Unionist Communities" than there are "Conservative Communities"

The two communities in NI are correctly called nationalist and unionist.
The unionist majority see themselves as British, and the nationalists as Irish.
That is what separates them. Not religion. Most are not religious and their disputes are certainly not about transubstantiation or confession!

So Steve and Jim, do you detest either community, because that would make you sectarian.

For myself, I hope NI joins Eire and becomes their problem, but I do not detest anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 07:45 AM

The wheels on the bus go round and round........................

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 08:17 AM

"The wheels on the bus go round and round........................"
No more Iaians
This moron is on his own unless you care to join him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 08:25 AM

I'd still be interested to hear from any Brexit supporters if you think Davis' responses to the select committee show we are well prepared for any consequences of leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 09:43 AM

Nice easy to use site here

Brexit Lies

It has been just pointed out to me that 18 months ago Brexit seemed a bad idea. Now that has been confirmed. By the time the leave date comes round it will be seem as good an idea as putting your wedding tackle in a food processor.

Of the 51% who voted to leave there will always be the die-hard racists and little Englanders but I suspect the others have now realised how much shit they were fed and will be clutching their head in their hands wondering what on earth they have let us all in for.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 10:10 AM

I suspect the others have now realised how much shit they were fed and will be clutching their head in their hands wondering what on earth they have let us all in for.

Polls show otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 12:42 PM

Official transcript of Davis' meeting with the select committee.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 04:15 PM

The sheer, feeble-minded stupidity of BrexShit supporters becomes more and more ludicrous, as they giggle inanely, stick their fingers in their ears, sing "La-la-la", and dream of the imminent arrival of the unicorns, whilst the truth of the shambolic fuck-up being presided over by a bunch of incompetent liars passes straight over their gormless heads.

Now we have the debacle of the charlatan Davies lying in his teeth to Parliament, and seemingly getting away with it.

You really couldn't make this crock of shit story up, could you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 03:57 AM

I said all along that there was no requirement for a hard border across Ireland, and I have been proved right.
All you remainers were sceptical, but you have all been proved wrong, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:46 AM

That is not quite what we argued, Keith. It was that a hard border was incompatable with the other government objectives of allowing different regulations on both sides of the border. Which is why Farage is saying "This ia not Brexit",

Anyway, let's not quibble. I this this agreement has a lot of political fudge in it that is going to come back to bite us, but it is a good step forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:55 AM

Now for the hard bit...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 05:01 AM

I think you will find that the EU, the Irish Government and the UK Government have ALL said that they did not want a "hard border"

Together with EVERY poster on here.

This statement is merely a step on the way to achieving that end.

The Devil will be in the detail of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 05:23 AM

One interesting question for residency is that EU partners can come if they are in a "durable relationship" which as far as I can see is not well defined. People who have decided simply to live together rather than marry/civil partnership/etc would be well advised to think carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 05:23 AM

"and I have been proved right."
More I win - you lose again Keith
Mindless
Among yopur other arguments has been that Ireland should make the sacrifices on behalf af a Brexit Britain
It is Brexit that has raised the threat of a hrd border and it is the DUP who have produced a stalemate by making demands that increase the threat of closed borders and direct rule from London
The Border question is yet another of the many fuck-ups caused by Brexiters as is the threat of a break-up of the United Kingdom as a unit.
Anybody holding such views is out of their mind if they claim to have won anything
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 05:31 AM

Jim,
Among yopur other arguments has been that Ireland should make the sacrifices on behalf af a Brexit Britain

It never was. Still busy making up shit Jim.

it is the DUP who have produced a stalemate

What stalemate Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 05:57 AM

It never was. Still busy making up shit Jim.
You actually said Ireland has less to lose over the Brors and should bend to the will of Brexit
You did it while you were equally idiotically claiming that Europe was acting out of spite
"What stalemate Jim?"
There is no deal yet and it remains to be seen if there will be one that will suit all
Your be-sashed and and bowler-hatted sectarian friends have brought that situation about and the longer they attempt to hold us to ransom, the more it costs the taxpayer and the higher risk of a return to bloodshed.
Go and find a triumphal sectarian march and stop nausing up a serious discussion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 07:16 AM

A rather astounding letter from The Times this morning, considering who the writer is, which implies that the Brexit Secretary, David Davis lied when he claimed that no overall assessment of the effects of Brexit had been carried out.
Would you buy a used car from these people!!!
Jim Carroll

Brexit assessments
Sir, David Davis, the Brexit secretary, told the House of Commons that the government has made no overall assessment of the effect of Brexit on the UK economy. We know that nearly 60 sectoral appraisals have been concluded, that they are too damaging to publish and yet are asked to believe that no summary exists. The Office for Budget Responsibility can apparently advise the chancellor to lower growth assumptions with no analysis of the Brexit consequences. The chancellor accepts the advice and lowers growth in his budget without the Treasury attempting to scrutinise the calculations behind the advice. Does the British government so fear the conclusions that it has refused to explore them or does the government actually know the conclusions and thus decided to suppress them?
Lord Heseltine House of Lords

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 07:18 AM

I decided to do a tour of as many newspapers reports of this as I could.

I was especially entertained by "The Sun"'s report that the DUP had backed down ...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 07:29 AM

It's always interesting to get a different perspective on events.


Winners and Losers

I can live in hope that this may temper the triumphalism of some.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 09:18 AM

There is no deal yet and it remains to be seen if there will be one that will suit all

The current negotiations were agreed last night and the next set have not started yet, so what stale mate Jim?

You actually said Ireland has less to lose over the Brors and should bend to the will of Brexit

i am not sure what you mean, but I am sure I said nothing like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 09:29 AM

Rag,
I can live in hope that this may temper the triumphalism of some.

Triumphalism? I just said I was right that a hard border was not required.
How about some humility from all those proven wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 09:45 AM

Just who said I was referring to you. This site is not the KOAH road show. There are many other posters most of whom are far more interesting to converse with than yourself.

As for your last sentence can you show even ONE post from ANY poster who wanted a hard border or suggested that a hard border was inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 10:00 AM

I should correct myself I posted "There are many other posters most of whom are far more interesting to converse with than yourself"

I SOULD have posted "Every one of which is far more interesting to converse with than yourself"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 10:15 AM

'The current negotiations were agreed last night'
That's what I said Keith
What has been agreed is to move to the next stage - as the abominable Foster and her Unionist bigots have made clear "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"
"am not sure what you mean"
I meant tow write "border", which is what you said
I have little doubt you will deny what you said, but quite frankly, have become bored arguming with a nutter who consistently lies at the same time as calling those who say things he disagrees with "liars" - not to mention someone who regards these discussions as a way to win prizes
Feel free
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 10:18 AM

"How about some humility from all those proven wrong?"
Who has ever said a hard border is required - it was the possibility of a hard Border and the untrustworthiness of a Prime Minister who was demanding a an agreement before a hard border was confirmed that ws the problem
See what I mean about lying?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 10:26 AM

"Dr Fox said: "We don't want there to be a hard border but the UK is going to be leaving the customs union and the single market""
Dr Fox said: "We don't want there to be a hard border but the UK is going to be leaving the customs union and the single market"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 11:58 AM

Rag,
As for your last sentence can you show even ONE post from ANY poster who wanted a hard border or suggested that a hard border was inevitable.

Yes. Here are some.

DMcG - PM
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 07:27 AM

?their astounding lack of concern for the border in Ireland

While I agree, and while I was appalled by the way Leadsom and others waved it away as a non-issue because we had had a semi-formal trade between Eire and Northern Ireland before joining the EU, I have to say those arguing to Remain didnt make as much of the problens either. It didnt take much thought to see how difficult this would be.

DMcG - PM
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 04:57 AM

Just saying how we find each other comical is not advancing the arguments much.

Andrew Marr was questioning John McDonnell on NI border, so it seems to be seeping in this might be an issue.

The BBC reported:

====
Mr Coveney (Eire Foreign Minister) added: "We simply don't see how we can avoid border infrastructure.

"Once standards change it creates differences between the two jurisdictions and a different rule book.

"When you have a different rule book you are starting to go down the route of having to have checks."

====

Since the UK assurance they don't want a hard border is clearly not enough to satisfy Eire, what else do Iains, Stanron, Nigel and others think we need to do to assess the border issue?

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:34 AM

Border infrastructure (what a great way of putting it!) is unavoidable unless Ireland is allowed by the EU to be a special case and to break EU rules

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:12 AM

I suppose a mini-Schengen for movement of people would be achievable, but the movement across the border of goods is a minefield. Every car would have to have its boot checked (trunk, yanks). Either there's full border controls or Ireland has to be allowed to be a special case. Can't see it somehow.

DMcG - PM
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM

Either there's full border controls or Ireland has to be allowed to be a special case.
Or Northern Ireland has to be a special case.

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:43 AM

But making Northern Ireland a special case would automatically mean making the Republic a special case, wouldn't it? It would still mean someone on the EU side sidestepping the border controls with non-EU states that the other 27 (or 26) have to abide by.

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 01:56 PM

We threw the spanner in the works by voting to leave. The current border arrangement can't work because it will in future be between an EU and a non-EU country

DMcG - PM
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:47 AM

... so i will post it tonight if the conversation hasnt moved on too much. But in summary i made the point that it was possible, but not whether it was desirable. However I believe the issues you raise will still be there even if we start trade talks immediately and that the only solution will be a hard border.

DMcG - PM
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 08:43 AM

I don't doubt Teresa May does not want a hard border. But no-one has come up with a plausible alternative. So if we follow Liam Fox or allow the talks to collapse, we will end up with a hard border, I predict. "Wanting" is nothing like enough.

im Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 11:09 AM

"it wasn't me calling people plebs, "
Didn't believe you did for a minute Steve, but Keith appears to believe you did and thanks that your view makes a point he is unable to make otherwise (any port in a sinking ship - to mix metaphors)
"We do not need a visible border and UK will not make one."
Whose word do we have for that and what's their track record on getting things right and keeping promises - would you buy a used car from them or be happy if your sister married one??
These people are lying crooks

DMcG - PM
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 03:19 AM

ITV reports mps think hard border inevitable


As do sky news and others.

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 05:57 AM

So there are three possibilities:

1. A hard border (there are currently over two hundred crossing points)

2. We stay in the customs union

3. The EU allows a fudge

teve Shaw - PM
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 06:55 AM

An invisible border would be the very epitome of an EU fudge. Well get that if we stay in the customs union. Otherwise it would be a fudge. An unlikely one, I'd say.

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 12:40 PM

"If it is closed, it will not be by UK."
The Border will be closed because of Brexit
Why should part of Britain have rights no other non-member has?

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:18 AM

"Yes, and none of them require border posts."
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR ******* MIND?

DMcG - PM
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:22 AM

I don't think the signatories believe they are achievable by any negotiation, Keith, and not the day (or perhaps the fortnight) before an agreed position has to be announced. It seems to be more about positioning than actually achieving anything more concrete.

For example if Ireland/the EU needs to be convinced that there is some mechanism for harmonised regulation across the border to prevent a hard border I would be astonished if they could agree to no regulations after 2019 having an effect.   The same is true for EU residents in the UK and the role of the ECJ.

So this all 'hard Brexit', so in effect no agreement. Which does require a hard border, in most people's opinion, though I accept you don't think so.

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:08 PM

"Jim, anyone that Ireland allows to enter is welcome to enter UK.
UK will not be stopping anyone at the border.
We do not want or need a hard border."
Don't be stupd again Keith
People who wish to stay in Britain wll be granted four weeks to do so, people seeking to work there will need to acquire a work permit
The point of Brexit was to keep foreigners out - now you are claiming that the Government lied and people are free to work there as long as they enter via Ireland - how stupid can you get?
That has what has been destroyed by Brexit and the opposite is the case
Unless the million plus Brits live in Europe
I ask again and will continue to do so until you respond (because I new fully enjoy watching you humiliate yourself
is little Britain going to be happy to see Europeans entering their country via Ireland, as you are proposing?
Jim Carroll

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 03:55 AM

"UK has stated it will not stop any EU people coming and staying as long as they want. yes"
You are mad!!!!
The Irish live and work in Britain because of a 'special arrangement' agreed to in 1922
The idea that European will b able to continue to enter Britain via Ireland after Brexit goes against very promise of those campaigning to leave
May's statement says that the aim is to limit foreign workers by limiting the flow from Europe as well as elsewhere
"a system of permits will limit the number of working migrants under the Home Office proposals."
Theresa May said on July 31 that it was ?wrong? to suggest free movement of people will ?continue as it is now? after March 2019.
After this date, EU workers moving to the UK will have to register until a permanent post-Brexit immigration policy is put in place.
In September, a leaked Home Office paper revealed the UK plans to cap the number of low-skilled EU migrants - confirming an end to free movement after Brexit.
Freedom of movement allows EU citizens to live and work in and in certain circumstances access the welfare system of any other EU country.
The government document, dated August 2017, spells out dramatic plans to slash the number of Europeans entering Britain.
Bosses may also be forced to recruit British workers first before looking overseas.
And ministers may restrict new work permits to occupations where there is a shortage of workers
"No border posts"
The border checks for Europeans coming in will be exactly the same as those in Europe restricting non member citizens - after Brexit the Brits in Europe will be subject to the same restrictions.
Tou are making things up
Until you and Iains start responding honestly to the situation hyou are just haunting this thread like smelly farts
What the fuck do you think all the argument about the Irish border is about if a Little Brit like you can just declare it is not needed
Jim Carroll

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 05:10 AM

"Jim, migrants come to work here and receive help if not working."
Britain is claiming special privileges from Europe not granted to non-members when we leave, yet you are suggestion that should not be reciprocated towards Europeans wishing to lve in Britain
You're as mad as a bag of frogs Keith
To confirm that insanity, you are saying that the demands by Europe by the Irish Government and the DUP that there should be no closed border - either inland or on the coast, are not necessary because the British would be quite happy for Polish painters to use Ireland as an entry point to Britain rather than Heathrow
I reckon that Little Englanders like you should be forced to wear bells around their necks to warn the rest of us that you are in the vicinity!

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 11:44 AM

Still no comment on the actual situation of Brexit
Yaeterday's negotiations failed because an extremist sectarian party with terrorist links, who was apparently informed of Britain's intentions in advance of their being discussed with the EU representatives, phoned the PM and told her she no longer had their support in the negotiations.
THey have announced that the Northern Counties withdrawal from Europe must be exactly the same as that of Britain in order to ensure that it remains part of the UK
This more or less scuppers any hope of an open border between North and South.

DMcG - PM
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:46 AM

That is not quite what we argued, Keith. It was that a hard border was incompatable with the other government objectives of allowing different regulations on both sides of the border.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 12:11 PM

What on earth was that about Keith?
THe Government have over-ridden the idea of a hard border because they had no alternative if they wished to proceed to the next stage
Ukip - whoops Dup have said that they will case supporting the Government if the fainal deal is not to their liking
You have accused the Republic of leaking the news, you have made the DUP the victims
The deal agreed hs been a compromise which still stands to be blocked by the DUP should they not get what they want
You have refused to to condemn their behaviour in blocking the prepared deal
The rest is totally irrelevant
Whast the *** have you "won" now?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 12:20 PM

I will only comment on my posts in that Keith, but if you read the whole of the bits you extracted you will see that in most cases I said a hard border is inevitable IF you want to have different regulations to the EU. I accept I did not say that every single time I posted because I believed it to be obvious from the other posts I had made. Apparently not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 02:20 PM

It is quite amusing in its way how the Leave.eu pages are fulminating that the deal is a betrayal of Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 03:38 PM

Not a single one of your cut and pastes suggest that anyone, the EU, the Irish Government, the UK Government or any poster here wants (or wanted) a hard border, not a single one.

Try again.

Now, whats Dave's Mantra ...... different .........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 03:49 PM

DMcG wrote: It is quite amusing in its way how the Leave.eu pages are fulminating that the deal is a betrayal of Brexit.

Does this contain a typo or is it supposed to make sense as it is? Some sort of explanation would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:26 PM

DMcG wrote: It is quite amusing in its way how the Leave.eu pages are fulminating that the deal is a betrayal of Brexit.

Does this contain a typo or is it supposed to make sense as it is? Some sort of explanation would be appreciated

It is very unusual, I know, but I don't think it does contain a typo. Almost all of my posts do, but that one seems to have been spared.

It does, I admit, have a gloss that I wrote 'the Leave.eu pages are fulminating' rather than 'the people who posted to the Leave.eu pages are fulminating' but that is quite conventional.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 05:37 PM

Can't see the problem as long as fulminate means express vehement protest, which is true.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 01:41 AM

Those of us who actually attended school, albeit 55years ago, and paid attention during English classes have no problem whatsoever with understanding DMcG's post.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 03:35 AM

Voters can use the next general election to have their say on a final Brexit deal, Michael Gove has said

That is an interesting statement to be making. It looks like breaking ranks on the matter of whether Friday's deal was a good one or not. And unless the election is before March 2019 it isn't actually true. We could, of course, try to agree changes, but that would require the EU to be willing, which is not in the voters gift. The agreement restricts the kind of changes that can be made, because of the Good Friday Agreement, so we can't just 'diverge' - it is much more restrictive than that.

Then it is really bad politics to make elections about a single issue when the reality is the people you elect have to deal with a large number of issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 04:17 AM

Backwoodsman wrote: Those of us who actually attended school, albeit 55years ago, and paid attention during English classes have no problem whatsoever with understanding DMcG's post.

even the

'Leave.eu pages'

bit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 05:40 AM

This is what I assumed DMcG was talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 05:45 AM

Rag,
Not a single one of your cut and pastes suggest that anyone, the EU, the Irish Government, the UK Government or any poster here wants (or wanted) a hard border, not a single one.

Not what I said Rag.
They all state that a hard border is inevitable for Brexit, which is all I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 06:04 AM

The Irish certainly didn't want a hard Border and nobody has suggested they did
British politicians didn't care one way or another, they never have
All the Brexiters wanted was to get out at any cost; the Border never became an issue until circumstances made is one
If a hard border had not been a possibility nobody woulde have bothered raising it
The Irish were well aware that if it had been necessary, Irish interests would be sacrificed - it's happened before - a lot
It was the Brits who created a border in the first place, using the threat of war - "sign in three days or else"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 07:12 AM

All bollocks Jim.
You have got none of that right.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 08:25 AM

I asked who, if anyone, wanted a hard border.

You've changed your tune from when you posted "Yes. Here are some"

Do you actually try and recall the things you have already posted?

Try comprehending DtG's mantra ......... different etc

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 10:28 AM

A leave.eu example

Leave.EU is a trading name, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 10:58 AM

I asked who, if anyone, wanted a hard border.

No-one did, and I never claimed it.

This is what I said,

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 09:29 AM

Rag,
I can live in hope that this may temper the triumphalism of some.

Triumphalism? I just said I was right that a hard border was not required.
How about some humility from all those proven wrong?



You've changed your tune from when you posted "Yes. Here are some"

I was saying, "here are some posts claiming a hard border was inevitable for Brexit."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 11:22 AM

DMcG - my link was to the web-page, but it appears to be the same organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 11:36 AM

Yes it is the same people, Backwoodsman. Yoi need to follow a good few links from the main page to gwt to the venom, so I thought i'd go more directly.

I've explained already that 'inevitable' (and almost eveey word) has an assumed context. No one anywhere thought it inevitable if Brexit was called off completely, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 12:16 PM

No one has been proved wrong idiot because no one person said a hard border should happen.

You are just moving the goalposts around as you usually do when you've lost an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 12:44 PM

"You have got none of that right."
"He was, however, present on the afternoon of 5 December, when Lloyd George gave the Irish delegates a powerful ultimatum. They must sign the treaty in its existing form - including the provisos for partition and allegiance to the Crown - or else quit and face a new war. After a few hours? consideration they agreed to sign, accepting the deal as the best available in the circumstances, and did so in the early hours of the next day."
From Lloyd George and Churchill (Rivals for Greatness"
Richard Toye (p 224) MacMillan 2007
The caption on the front reads "Admirably nuanced and just" Max Hastings, Sunday Times, so it must be true
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 01:48 PM

Oh, one more thing professor. Kindly do not PM me as I have no desire whatsoever to communicate privately with you.

If you are reluctant, or perhaps afraid, to post it on here I do not wish to receive it.

Is that CLEAR .......... No PM's to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 03:03 PM

Hmm. Could be wrong but I seem to recall you saying that no-one wanted a hard border except for the EU and Dublin, Keith...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 07:08 PM

I repeat my recent comment on the Damian Green thread....

Don't. Feed. The. Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 02:16 AM

Time for a new topic: amendment 7

This, as I expect you all know, is to incorporate a "meaningful vote" on Brexit into the withdrawal bill. I am in two minds about it. As a matter of principle, Parliament should vote on whether the negotiated teams are acceptable. But I fear it will merely introduce uncertainty and make a hard Brexit more likely. It is to be expected that most people will dislike the deal for some reason - exit bill too high, not enough protection for workers, transition period too long or too short, of whatever. So thiis risks all those who have any objection at all into a single 'no' but giving no indication of what needs to be changed to get a 'yes'. (We have had this effect before when Blair attempted to reform the house of Lords. There was a majority for reducing the numbers but not for any specific amount so all the votes failed.)

So we could well end up rejecting the deal even though the majority agree with any one bit of it. This makes it crucial whether the effect of a 'no' votes is to crash to WTO rules, to cancel Brexit or to try for another deal. Which may or may not also have to go before Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 02:28 AM

Perhaps a worked example would make that clearer. Suppose a bill has clauses a, b and c.

Bill is so opposed to clause a that he will be vote against the bill, but likes b and c.
Ben likes clauses a and c, but b is a no-go
Little weed likes a and b, but will vote against because of c.

So in this situation each of a, b and c has a 2/3 majority but everyone votes down the bill.


That is the risk we are taking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 04:24 AM

It just isn't really going to happen unless as a good old british compromise that pleases no-one or annoys anyone much (apart from the far-right lunatic fringe who are always annoyed) The other - more british and more likely result is that we will all lose interest and quietly drop the idea as it's way more complicated than we thought. (we all have a PC but how many of us can use all the functions?) And despite recent events we are quite a polite lot really and would feel embarrassed to think we had put our neighbours out. like any family, there are a few shouty drunks but british common sense and laziness should stop any extreme madness. hopefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 07:44 AM

Rag,
No one has been proved wrong idiot because no one person said a hard border should happen.

All those posts I pasted said Brexit made a hard border inevitable.

I pmd you because you asked for stuff that I could not justify putting in the Damian Green thread because it was so trivial.

Steve,

Hmm. Could be wrong but I seem to recall you saying that no-one wanted a hard border except for the EU and Dublin, Keith...

I said they were threatening one, and that if there was to be one it would have to be them who constructed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 08:34 AM

"All those posts I pasted said Brexit made a hard border inevitable"

Utter rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 08:36 AM

Nope. You said what I said you said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 08:40 AM

"I said they were threatening one, and that if there was to be one it would have to be them who constructed it"

Again utter rubbish.

Neither the EU or the Irish Government has EVER threatened a hard border.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 09:51 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 12:44 PM
"You have got none of that right."
"He was, however, present on the afternoon of 5 December, when Lloyd George gave the Irish delegates a powerful ultimatum. They must sign the treaty in its existing form - including the provisos for partition and allegiance to the Crown - or else quit and face a new war. After a few hours? consideration they agreed to sign, accepting the deal as the best available in the circumstances, and did so in the early hours of the next day."

Jim, as has been pointed out before, there would be no "New war". What was threatened was resumption of the existing war which was on hold. As The Irish National archives makes clear:
4 December
Discussion by both sides of the written Irish counter proposals.


5 December
A meeting is held between Lloyd George and Collins which discusses the proposed boundary commission in more detail.


6 December
An ultimatum is delivered by Lloyd George to the delegates in which they are faced with the option of either signing the text of the Treaty as it stands or refusing to sign and face the consequence of an immediate resumption of war.


The 'Articles of Agreement for a Treaty Between Great Britain and Ireland' are signed by both delegations at 2.15am.


8 December
De Valera issues a public statement that he cannot recommend acceptance of the Treaty. The Cabinet decides by 4 votes to 3 to recommend the Treaty to the Dail on 14 December.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 09:55 AM

Gentlemen, if you wish to discuss the issues of almost 100 years ago please start a fresh thread. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 10:03 AM

Count me out of this one Raggy - the last person I'd choose to discuss Ireland with is an English Tory, given their record of ethnic cleansing
Over and out on this one - it's been done to death anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 01:07 PM

Rag,
"All those posts I pasted said Brexit made a hard border inevitable"
Utter rubbish.

They do. Show one that does not.

Steve,
Nope. You said what I said you said.

You have had time to check since you posted, "Could be wrong but I seem to recall you saying that no-one wanted a hard border except for the EU and Dublin, Keith..." so now it is a deliberate lie.
I never said that Dublin or EU wanted a hard border, just threatening.

That is why you do not back your claim with a quote. You know it is a lie.

Rag,
Neither the EU or the Irish Government has EVER threatened a hard border.

UK was clear it did not want or need one. It was the EU and Dublin who kept raising the threat of one even though it would be very bad for Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 01:11 PM

"UK was clear it did not want or need one"
Davis Davis has said that "the promise not to have a hard border is not legally binding but a statement of intent"
Methinks Brexit-man speaks with forked tongue
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 01:14 PM

Please refer to my post on the Damien Green thread.

You're on your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 01:15 PM

For the less literate, if it suits Britain to have a hard border, that's what they will try to get
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 02:09 PM

"Could be wrong but I seem to recall you saying that no-one wanted a hard border except for the EU and Dublin, Keith..."

Seeming to recall and leaving myself open to being wrong (just call me Mr Self-Deprecating) can't be characterised as either a claim or a lie. It's just me musing, Keith. Anyway, truth will out. No more Wheatcroft moments for you, old chap.


(Can one troll a troll?)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 02:57 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 03:04 PM

LYING SHITBAGS
Let him drown in his own swill Steve
What he actually said about the Hard border was that Ireland and the EU were threatening to force it to spite Britain
Far worse and far mor succinct
"Why is IR/EU threatening that and why blame UK?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 04:48 AM

Jim,
For the less literate, if it suits Britain to have a hard border, that's what they will try to get

It does not. Neither does it suit Dublin or EU, but they continue to threaten it.

Steve,

Seeming to recall and leaving myself open to being wrong (just call me Mr Self-Deprecating) can't be characterised as either a claim or a lie

You were wrong then. Now you admit it. Thanks.
You came back next morning and confirmed your claim, making it a lie.

Jim,
What he actually said about the Hard border was that Ireland and the EU were threatening to force it to spite Britain

Yes. They said it would be inevitable if we leave, but it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 07:21 AM

Were I the EU, I would be saying I wanted the UK to confirm the agreement is the non-negotiable basis of any trade talks. Without that, I would not agree to proceed to the next stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 07:36 AM

Some may remember me reporting news articles on Irish Television wherein the Finance Minister said he had been approached by numerous Finance companies considering relocating some of their operations to Dublin. There was also talk of Finance companies relocating some of their operations to Germany at the same time.

A report in todays Guardian reinforces this:


City of London job losses

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 07:49 AM

There are already rumblings of doubt from Ireland and Europe about Davis's reneging statement
If they live up to their promises none of us will live to see a conclusion to this fiasco
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 08:16 AM

David Davis is reported to be suffering from severely damaged ankles after having to desperately back- pedal from his statement on the Irish border!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 09:27 AM

Reneging?
EU agrees with him.
BBC today,
"The agreement to move Brexit talks on to the next phase is not strictly legally binding but the two sides have "shaken hands" on it, the EU has said."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42303059

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 09:29 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 07:21 AM
Were I the EU, I would be saying I wanted the UK to confirm the agreement is the non-negotiable basis of any trade talks. Without that, I would not agree to proceed to the next stage.

Unfortunately that sentiment founders on the main basis of the talks (Quoted both in article 50 and last Friday's announcement)"Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 09:50 AM

Not so, Nigel. I do realise the document starts with that declaration but it is not inconstant to make plain you will not accept any further agreement that conflicts with what has already had "a gentleman's handshake". Which seems to be the EU statement since I made my post. It also explains why Davis seems to have reversed yesterdays declarations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 09:53 AM

Davis claims, by the way, that yesterday's statements were taken out of context. Unless the BBC edited it, we have the whole context and they do not seem to have been misrepresented.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 09:57 AM

THe EU has insisted that negotiations move on so that Britain's promise can be put into writing before they change their mind again
I watched th interview on Irish television - the bBC is giving a diplomatic version
Davis's statement was only withdrawn when both Europe and Ireland protested
Will you never stop defending this on-going fiasco Keith?
Read what Nigel has written
"Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"
Straight from the mouth of the U.D.P.
Terrorist-linked tail wagging the dog
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 02:30 PM

Will you never stop defending this on-going fiasco Keith?

I do not.
I do not think the negotiations have gone at all well.
More like a series of capitulations from our side.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 02:41 PM

"More like a series of capitulations from our side."
How about more like having to come to terms with what was a bad idea in the fist place?
Nobody has actually put up barriers to Brexit - they problems are ones the Brexiters they chose to face.
It's their/your job to overcome them.
The problems we are discussing here are those that have spilled over into countries like Ireland who are not part of this Exodus
Because Britain is still clinging onto that country as a legacy of Empire, it makes it a British problem.
The main cock-ups have arisen from sheer stupidity and incompetence
We could have predicted that 'Er Upstairs' would have deliberately thrown away a majority
Who would have believed that a moron like Boris Johnson would ever become foreign Secretary - I look forward with some anticipation to when he actually has to do somethingI have no doubt that, like everything else, nothing is the fault of the Establishment - it's all down to somebody else (you've already blamed the EU and Ireland for the border fuck up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 02:57 PM

That's interesting, Keith. I am being serious here - no point scoring agenda.

There are a few reasons why we might be making concessions that I can think of.

The most positive I can think from a Brexit viewpoint is that they do not think it over important, because all that matters is the final agreement - anything you say on the way is bye-the-bye. That is basically the "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" line. All that mattered at this stage was opening the lock to the important bit.

The second reason might be that we have poor negotiators. That is pretty bad, as if they are poor at this stage they are likely to be poor at the next.

The third reason could be that the UK hand is much weaker than they are letting the public know. That would also be dreadful, because it means they are not as confident of the 'no deal' benefits as they claim. Otherwise, why concede anything?

Are there any other explanations that occur to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 03:50 AM

Grin :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 03:50 AM

Even America has doubts on the wisdom of Brexit.

Rand Report

Do any reports actually say we'd be better off outside the EU, apart from soundbites from MP's ......... any actual reports?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 03:55 AM

I am sure someone will find some to fit their agenda, Raggy. Anyone taking odds on who it may be? :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 04:27 AM

Jim,
Because Britain is still clinging onto that country as a legacy of Empire,

Same old lie. Britain does not want NI. It is a millstone on our necks and a hole in our purse.
But, we believe in their right to self determination. Why can't you just persuade them to vote to leave?

DMcG, I agree that are negotiators have been poor. I am not sure they are even committed to leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 04:44 AM

"Same old lie. Britain does not want NI. "
Go look at the name of the Tory Party Keith - The Conservative and Unionist Party
It has written Ireland into its constitution
Britain believed Ireland had a right to self determination by selecting six counties which would give it the social and cutrural mix t wanted
If iy had believed in self detrmination, the whole of Ireland would have been given the right to choose
It's like letting the wealthiest English South East decide what happens to Britain
Partition has sweet FA to do with free choice
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 06:26 AM

Go look at the name of the Tory Party Keith - The Conservative and Unionist Party
It has written Ireland into its constitution

And Scotland, but they are both free to leave if they want to go.
A mere 1% majority is all they need.

I can't wait for NI to go, and that is true for most people here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 07:15 AM

So following that up, Keith, if you believe the negotiating team are poor now, what gives you confidence they will be better negotiating trade deals post Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 07:27 AM

Because, post-Brexit, the unicorns will be here and everything will be lovely...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 08:17 AM

I am not at all confident that they will get the best possible deal for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 08:22 AM

"and everything will be lovely..."
More bad news from the front on this one
A 3% plus leap in inflation has guaranteed a rise in prices and a drop in the standard of living
Irish Banks have presented a report showing the adverse effect Brexit is having on Trade with other countries
What with this and the border issue, Britain is rapidly becoming the bad neighbour of Europe
Maybe thman who wrote, "Good walls make good neighbours", had it about right!
"A mere 1% majority is all they need."
Ten years ago it was 90+% - a pretty fair assesment of how things are moving
If it had moved faster, there wouldn't have been the need for so many body bags.
It is an armed and aggressively sectarian group that has kept the Six Counties intact with laws, economic repression, unfair voting systems and triumphalist threatening marches
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 08:31 AM

my prediction EU reaction to Davis' comments on Sunday seem to be as I said I would behave.

This is a guardian report but it was also diacussed in the House of Commons today.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:55 AM

The EU has warned that future negotiations could be cancelled if there is any attempt at "reneging or backsliding"
They said that the agreements need to be made "Davis-proof" if work is to proceed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:22 AM

In the face of a possible defeat in the Commons, 'May or May Not' has conceded that they will have the right of a final vote before Brexit is finally agreed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:39 AM

It will be interesting to see how the DUP will vote on the deal. With the party who bribed them with lots of our money or with their local electorate who are firmly pro-European.

Interesting times.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:20 AM

Well, put a beret on me and call me Pierre...

Express backtracks on Brexit

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 01:18 PM

Ructions at Number Ten - Tory rebels threaten to vote with Labour tonight over Brexit, demanding a final vote in exiting Europe
Horrors of horrors - Nigel the Newt Farrago makes a scathing attack on May at the EU
Something rotten in the state of Little England, I would say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:48 PM

Ooops, seems the Government are at odds with each other.

Ooops

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:05 PM

I am gwtting too much of a political junkie I fear: I was watching the live reports. The Sun reporter tweeted this: :Tortured Vicky ford on verge of tears wavering between the two lobbies. Chancellor scoops her into no. Defence secretary on whipping duty cajoling abstainers"

What? An MP unsure how so vote the chancellor decides he wants two votes and pulls her his way?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:24 PM

Some twat's bound to claim 2000...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:25 PM

...so it might as well be me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:41 PM

brexit? not going to happen

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:25 PM

I have a feeling that it'll be fudged out of existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 02:33 AM

Right back at the start - when Camoron, Bozo, Farrarse, and The Lying Scottish Viper shat their boxers and ran away after they "won" the referendum, I predicted that Brexit will never actually happen. I believed then, as I believe now, that the Tory Government would go through the motions of 'negotiating' our exit, but would try to do it in a way that would give them a get-out without actually committing political suicide - hence their refusal to make BrexShit a Cross-Party project, because they would lose control of its outcome.

I still live in hope that this will be the outcome. Not for myself, but for my children, who don't deserve to have their lives ruined by the imbecility of a bunch of feeble-minded xenophobic and racists, who don't have even the intellectual capacity to know when they're best-off.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 02:34 AM

Xenophobes, for gawd's sake!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 03:09 AM

Come on BWM, tell us what you really think :-)

Nice to see the party of the rich and powerful falling into such disarray. If it wasn't such a serious matter it would be laughable.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 03:23 AM

Time for another referendum and/or General Election, I would say
A nasty case of thieves falling out that nobody can afford
Not been a bad week so far, with this and the Alabama Showdown - maybe you7 can't fool all of the people some of the time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 04:29 AM

DtG - if I told you what I really think about the bunch of propagandised, Daily-Shit-Rag-reader meat-heads who have dropped us all in this steaming, festering pile of ordure, I'd be thrown off the forum.

So I'll just stay cool.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 06:20 AM

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 06:51 AM

From: peteaberdeen - PM
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:41 PM
brexit? not going to happen

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:25 PM
I have a feeling that it'll be fudged out of existence.

I think you should both prepare to be disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 07:05 AM

While most commentators are saying this amendment is a boost for a softer Brexit I fear, as I indicated below, that makes a 'No' vote more likely which could crash us into a hard Brexit. The Polish MEP saying we have to have the vote before 18 October 2018 is making a similar point.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 08:56 AM

"I think you should both prepare to be disappointed."
As long as they're not feeling as disappointed as you lot must be feeling this morning
A second referendum has already been mooted.... surely nobody will support a rerun of this turkey!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 06:58 AM

Of course Brexit will happen. The UK was always going to veto a United States of Europe, closer political and financial uniformity and a European Army. The down side of the UK leaving would be the loss of it's financial contribution but, as we can all see, nothing was allowed to progress until a financial deal was done. Now the EU can continue down it's ideologically preferred path unopposed by it's second largest money source. The smaller EU members can now be individually bullied into accepting closer political convergence as they no longer have adequate financial clout. The EU has to put on a show of being tough and in control but the truth is they will bend over backwards to see us gone.

Merry Mithras.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 08:43 AM

The ruling elite were always pro EU.
That was why the people demanded a referendum.
The Establishment did not care about Parliamentary Sovereignty when Brussels made our laws, but now they demand it to thwart what their electorate want.

Leavers believe in sovereignty of our Parliament, but not when Parliament demands to give that away.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 08:53 AM

Stanron. A very accurate summary!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 08:53 AM

Well, Stanron, the irony is that there WILL be a European army, there WILL be more fiscal uniformity and there WILL be moves to a closer union - because we're leaving. Those things could not happen with us as a member. In fact, we alone have thwarted plans for that army. We have the veto you mentioned. We won't have it any more though. Dunno about you, but the last thing I want to see is a European army. But we're going to get one now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 09:04 AM

But we're going to get one now.

No, they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 09:37 AM

Well I guess that the good ship UK will just float out into the Sargasso Sea then, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 10:20 AM

"The ruling elite were always pro EU.
That was why the people demanded a referendum."
Utter nonsense
Up to now the people have been very pro- the ruling elite - go look at how they vote
Thwey voted for Brexit because the ruling elite persuaded them that foreigners were taking their jobs - a major factor in the Brexit referendum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 10:27 AM

"The Establishment did not care about Parliamentary Sovereignty when Brussels made our laws, but now they demand it to thwart what their electorate want."

We have always had parliamentary sovereignty, the principle of the sovereignty of individual member-nations' parliaments taking precedence over any collective sovereignty of the EU is one of the founding principles of the EU.

Get an education, you thick, feeble-minded wazzock.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 11:20 AM

Up to now the people have been very pro- the ruling elite - go look at how they vote

Not on Europe.

Thwey voted for Brexit because the ruling elite persuaded them

The ruling elite, barring a few renegades, tried very hard to persuade them to vote Remain.

BWM,
We have always had parliamentary sovereignty,

No. Most of our laws were made in Brussels.
Our Parliamentarians never rocked the boat by challenging anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 12:38 PM

"Not on Europe."
Wha????
Don't understand that at all
When heve the British people ever been asked to vote on Europe other than the referendum which was sold on the idea of getting rid of foreigners?
All the economic institutions warned against leaving and some are now pointing out how right they were
Weren't they just?
"Leavers believe in sovereignty of our Parliament, but not when Parliament demands to give that away."
Gibberish when you remember the poodle like behavior of Britain towards the Us - including and especially the racist and misogynist thug who now occupies the White House
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 01:01 PM

When heve the British people ever been asked to vote on Europe other than the referendum which was sold on the idea of getting rid of foreigners?

Our ruling elite never gave them the chance.
Then UKIP came along, won the EU election and promised a referendum if they won the general election.
Suddenly the Establishment parties agreed to offer one too.

All the economic institutions warned against leaving and some are now pointing out how right they were

Most of their predictions have proved wrong. They are all Establishment bodies, supporting the Establishment determination to keep us in.

Gibberish when you remember the poodle like behavior of Britain towards the Us - including and especially the racist and misogynist thug who now occupies the White House

We are not a member of the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 01:18 PM

We have always had parliamentary sovereignty, the principle of the sovereignty of individual member-nations' parliaments taking precedence over any collective sovereignty of the EU is one of the founding principles of the EU.

I think the Lisbon Treaty punched a few holes in that mistaken idea.
Maybe you are the wazzock and feeble minded and in need of an education.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 01:20 PM

Whether our governments chose to challenge the EU or not is completely irrelevant - the U.K. Parliamentary Sovereignty has always existed, it is the foundation of our own democracy, and a founding principle of tHe European Union.

I repeat...get an education, you thick, feeble-minded wazzock. I used to defend you when Musket called you TC. On reflection, and in view of the ludicrous drivel you've posted on this thread and the Damien Green thread, as well as a great many others, I'm persuaded to agree with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 01:31 PM

I am not opposed to an EU army, or closer political and economic unity, so long as the UK is not involved. Europe, historically, has had a predilection to more totalitarian forms of government than the UK. Let them get on with it. Looking at the way the EU has evolved it may well turn into something as democratic as the Catholic Church. There, there is democracy for the Cardinals but the less informed are kept away from decision making. The EU has an apparency of democracy but the EU Parliament only gets to vote on what the top few ex member state rulers tell them they can vote on. Look at these top few ex state presidents, opposition leaders and prime ministers as an equivalent to the Papacy's Cardinals and the picture might become clear. The EU might end up as democratic as China is right now.

We are well out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 03:04 PM

An old article for a different trade deal, but it would be relevant if we went for a 'Canada plus plus plus' deal. It raises lots of problems about sovereignty if companies can sue governments and some other court is higher than the government concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 03:14 PM

What complete nonsense, Stanron. The EU insists on democracy in its member states, on human rights and on the rule of law. Before they joined the EU, many countries, in your lifetime and mine, had none of that. Portugal, Spain, Greece, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and the Balkan states were all ruled by regimes that you and I would have detested and which are never coming back - because they are members of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 04:31 PM

I am afraid that what you detested in Portugal, Spain, Greece, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and the Balkan states will be at the heart of the future EU. There will be the
apparency of Democracy. Everyone will get to vote, but only the select few at the top will really control what happens. No one votes them in so no one can vote them out. You said "The EU insists on democracy in its member states, on human rights and on the rule of law". They get that in the member states but not in the EU that sits over the member states. All the MEPs can vote on is proposals from the Commission. The Commission are not elected and cannot be voted out. They are insulated from any kind of democracy. Only the Commission decides overall policy for the EU. At it's heart the EU is not a democracy. It's a sham democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 05:34 PM

In America they are calling the impending firing of our Secretary of State Rex Tillerson "Rexit"

Trump hates diplomacy. He wants to attack Korea preferably after they seem to attack first.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 06:11 PM

The EU can't be viewed as a democracy in the same way as the member states because it isn't a state. In effect, it's a bureaucracy that sets rules and regulations according to the wishes of its member states (each of which has a veto over major decisions, your European army being a case in point). The European Commission does not pass laws or impose rules on member states. It can only act on the mandate of member states, each of which has a minister in the Council of Ministers and each of which elects MEPs to the European Parliament. These are the bodies that make EU laws. Many laws, in order to be passed, require a majority of at least 18 states with at least two-thirds of the EU population. We have a big say as we have 13% of the EU population. The vast majority of EU are laws that the UK overwhelmingly agrees with in any case. Major issues such as the formation of an EU army are vulnerable to veto by just one state. That's why there's no EU army: the UK has vetoed it. One that the UK "lost" was the EU law restricting bankers' bonuses. Poor George Osborne was beaten on that one. What a shame, eh?

If there's a democratic deficit in the EU, it's driven in part by people of your ilk, Stanron, what with you lot constantly moaning about unelected bureaucrats in Brussels forcing laws on us, gravy trains (you could usefully ask your mate Farage about that), ever-closer union, United States of Europe, etc. No wonder people listening to all that ignorant claptrap don't bother to turn out to vote in European elections. That's where the democratic deficit truly is: peddle nonsense to the electorate in order to turn them off and keep them ignorant. Of course, you're experts at it. After all, you did precisely the same thing in the referendum campaign, the event with the biggest democratic deficit this country has ever seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Dec 17 - 05:43 PM

that all seems entirely reasonable, steve. however, i can remember during the debate on the brexit vote no-one wanting to leave was interested in 'reason' or 'facts' and mocked the opinions of experts or suspicious intellectuals. you would have thought that given the shambles of the last 18 months and the fact that the costs and difficulties of leaving the EU become more apparent every day that most people would have started to appreciate a bit of common market sense. it ain't happening though - in fact the complexity of the whole business seems too much for people to understand or even engage in. so it's left to the elected politicians, career bureaucrats, suspicious lefties and traitorous professionals to do all the hard analysis that they (we) never wanted to do anyway. no wonder that leavers are suspicious of remainers' motives - they should be.
i suspect that they will lose interest and drift off to some other new moral outrage to bang on about and the serious minds involved can legislate the exit away, drop the subject and sneakily (keep it quiet!) stay in with some meaningless trinkets (you can have bent bananas again! isn't britain great?) to appease the gullible and bored. hope so anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 17 - 05:59 PM

We are not a member of the US.

True enough. We are a client state rather than a member state. What we used to call, in relation to the USSR, a satellite state.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:46 AM

BWM,
in view of the ludicrous drivel you've posted on this thread and the Damien Green thread,

I ask you again.
Please provide an example of such drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 07:01 AM

Good post from Steve, 15 Dec 17 - 06:11 PM.

The idea that laws are forced on member states by a completely autonomous, unelected body in 'Europe', without any deiscussion, consultation, or meaningful vote, was one of the biggest of the many deceits thrust at us by the BrexShiteers during the campaign. And, of course, the U.K. is one of only nine member-states which has the power of veto over many areas of policy.

Yet the feeble-minded Daily-Fail and Scum readers are still blathering about 'Europe' **making all our laws**.

And, of course, the best laugh for years is the BrexShitters outrage that, having campaigned to 'restore parliamentary democracy' in the U.K., parliament has voted to uphold parliamentary democracy by having a debate and vote on the final BrexShit agreement! What a bunch of cocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 07:08 AM

Keefy, your drivel is here in abundance, on the thread. If anyone is insane enough to want to see it, they can look down the list of postings at the top of the thread, and pick out any of your posts. There is no reason whatsoever for me to waste time and effort demonstrating it in further posts.

Now, AFAIC, you are completely Persona Non Grata, so I suggest you concentrate on playing your schoolyard games with, and setting your childish, easily-detected traps for, someone else.

In other words, go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 12:29 PM

So you can not find any example to put up of "drivel" from me, or of me being "feeble minded."

When you can not make a case or challenge anything I actually say, you resort to baseless personal abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 01:04 PM

GTFU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 01:24 PM

"GTFU."
Stop feeding the troll !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 01:45 PM

ROTFLMAO, Jim! The Biter Bit! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 02:15 PM

.Brexit was a silent coup by a tiny cabal of extreme right wing zealots, sold on lies and xenophobia financed by foreign tax dodging billionaire plutocrats' Everyone knows (really, if we are being honest) it's going to be shit for the UK and on a personal, social level, needlessly destructive. just pack it in, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 03:22 PM

Precisely,Pete. It's only the feeble-minded and the brainwashed who don't understand that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 04:09 AM

So there never were any Labour brexiteers?
I thought there were.
I even thought that Corbyn was once anti-EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 04:14 AM

BWM, so the best non-feeble minded non-drivelling argument you can make is "GTFU."

That nicely confirms what I said, "When you can not make a case or challenge anything I actually say, you resort to baseless personal abuse. "

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 04:54 AM

"That nicely confirms what I said, "When you can not make a case or challenge anything I actually say, you resort to baseless personal abuse. "

Only in your feeble, fetid imagination.
When you say something worth responding to, I'll respond. In the meantime, have fun with your deceitful drivel, your I'll-concealed trap-setting, and schoolyard-game playing...you really are what Musket said you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 04:56 AM

From: peteaberdeen - PM
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 02:15 PM
.Brexit was a silent coup by a tiny cabal of extreme right wing zealots, sold on lies and xenophobia financed by foreign tax dodging billionaire plutocrats' Everyone knows (really, if we are being honest) it's going to be shit for the UK and on a personal, social level, needlessly destructive. just pack it in, eh?

"A silent coup"? It was the main news in nearly every form of media for a long period. Hardly 'silent'.
"A tiny cabal of extreme right wing zealots"? Actually 17+million people, which, as more than a third of the total electorate can hardly be described as 'extreme right wing'.
"sold on lies and xenophobia financed by foreign tax dodging billionaire plutocrats' "? where the remain campaign was largely financed from the public purse. Why should 17 million of us have paid towards posting out propaganda (which we disagreed with) to the whole population?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 05:17 AM

THere's a move within the Tory Party to persuade May-Blossom to stat on till 2021 to avoid a split in the party - as if thy hadn't made the British people suffer enough already
Personally, I hope she does - that should **** up their chances for the foreseeable future
Mind you - 'How Much Does that Moggy in Westminster' and 'Braindead Boris' will do just as well..... choices, choices!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 08:48 AM

BWM
When you say something worth responding to

You do respond, but only with personal abuse.
You clearly can not articulate an actual arument.

And, do not be afraid of my "I'll-(sic)concealed traps."
I do not set any. I am too feeble minded!

I suggest a deal.
You stop making insulting personal attacks against me, and I will stop replying to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 09:03 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 12:38 PM

"Not on Europe."
Wha????
Don't understand that at all
When heve the British people ever been asked to vote on Europe other than the referendum which was sold on the idea of getting rid of foreigners?

1975

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 09:09 AM

nigel, there as been a right-wing agenda for a long time in the press which is consistently hostile to any continental european initiative and frequently descends into straightforward racism. i guess this was partly inspired back in the '70s with talk of the social chapter - guaranteeing workers' and human rights - bosses and shareholders hate that sort of lefty nonsense. the tiny group i referred to own the media (and the money) and spread their poisonous message everywhere. you are one of the 17 million folk who have swallowed all this crap over the years so now feel justified in voting against their own and the country's best interests. i don't know how old you are, so you may not feel the effects of this brexit adventure - but i'll bet your children won't thank you for your decision.
do you really have trust in the tories to handle this well? wouldn't you (secretly) rather the grown ups in the european parliament were left to handle the important decisions (climate change, human rights, international security etc) with full input from a confident and positive UK government?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 09:18 AM

keith - of course there were and still are some labour brexiteers. corbyn, like theresa may and many other top politicians is having to curb his instincts for the sake of some party unity. (for what it's worth i have always felt it was too much of a rich man's club and would like to have seen a lot more progressive policies on workers' rights and the environment. i have always admired their achievements on keeping the peace and improving living standards by cooperating with their neighbours) i guess corbyn, like anyone, would rather not be run by this crazed and chaotic tory party and would rather stay in a close relationship with europe and not have to rely on the USA and imaginary trade deals.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 09:36 AM

From: peteaberdeen - PM
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 09:09 AM
do you really have trust in the tories to handle this well? wouldn't you (secretly) rather the grown ups in the european parliament were left to handle the important decisions (climate change, human rights, international security etc) with full input from a confident and positive UK government?

No, I don't necessarily trust the Conservative Party to handle this well.
But I certainly don't trust those that you describe as "The grown ups in the European parliament" to handle such matters.
"International Security"? Greece is the only EU country (apart from UK) which spends more than 2% GDP on defence: From the EU's own site here: Defence spending
As for intelligence related to Security, UK is in a stronger position that Europe, thanks to being part of the "Five Eyes" for details see The Guardian

So while I may not trust those running the UK, I still believe that the country has a better future outside of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 10:27 AM

Accentuating the negative is oh so easy. All you need to do is throw out a few snippets that are predicated on untruthfulness. A few phrases such as "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels," "the EU gravy train," "taking back control," "immigrants driving down wages," "immigrants straining our public services," "ever closer union," "stealing our sovereignty," add more of your own. Not one of those is based on a honest assessment of where we are today as EU members. The positives are not so black and white and far more easily demolished by little-Englander ignorance (which has generated all the above). The fact that we are a major member of a huge free-trading bloc with whom we do half our trade in goods. The fact that we are a leading financial services centre not only in Europe but in the world: there are plenty of financial institutions in the EU who are now licking their lips at the prospect of grabbing big lumps of that for themselves once the bureaucracy has hobbled us after brexit. The fact that, because you can't be in the EU unless you sign up to democracy, human rights and the rule of law, we don't have wars in Europe any more. There's a lot wrong with the EU. The EU fisheries and agricultural policies are great ideas gone bad. The bureaucracy is definitely unwieldy and top-heavy. An EU army is just a bloody bad idea. The common currency was a deal that an average sixth-former could have told you would never work properly. But as a big, influential member of the club we should be right in there fighting for reform. Instead, for decades we've acted like petulant schoolboys moaning and groaning about how much we have to pay, etc., and about all those other illusory issues I started this post with. The EU both needs us and will be glad to see the back of us. There'll be nothing much glad in this country once we're out.

As Pete said to Nigel, "you are one of the 17 million folk who have swallowed all this crap over the years so now feel justified in voting against their own and the country's best interests."

I actually think that most people now realise that brexit goes solidly against this county's interests. "Not liking foreigners" simply doesn't cut it. Trade will be difficult and finding new trading partners to do deals with will be hard, considering that we don't make much stuff and a lot of what we do make can't compete with the likes of China with its vast production scales and cheap labour. The services sector which is over three-quarters of our economy will be badly hit by levels of bureaucracy so far unheard of. We will have skilled labour shortages all over the economy as EU workers increasingly find this country a very unattractive place to come to, if they can get in at all. We've already discovered, surprise surprise, that we may be able to control people coming in but we can't control them leaving. EU citizens are already voting with their feet. I'm not voting for people who put political posturing above the interests of this country, and that includes Jeremy Corbyn, who, instead of putting up a feisty opposition to brexit and presenting the country with a genuine alternative, seems to have become totally paralysed. The interests of this country are far more important than sticking to ridiculous and pusillanimous standpoints such as "we must abide by the will of the people." As even Nigel has pointed out, it was just over a third who expressed that will. Another third expressed the opposite and just under another third kept schtum. That is not an overwhelming mandate to take all of us, especially the young, to hell in a handcart, and the sooner the politicos man up and starting bravely telling us the truth the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 10:44 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 10:27 AM

Another long, unstructured rant, which makes it difficult to respond to in any structured way.

Basically it appears that Steve's view is predicated on the fact that he is one of the 16.1 million voters who fully understood all the matters to do with the relationship between the EU and UK, and voted to retain that relationship, and head towards ever closer union.

I, on the other hand seem to be one of the 17.4 million who were incapable of understanding the nuances of the arguments being made. Either that, or I was being wilfully racist.

It's very difficult to argue with logic like that!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 10:46 AM

In what sense is that post a rant, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 10:59 AM

/rant/
verb

1.speak or shout at length in an angry, impassioned way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 11:05 AM

Another aspect of Brexit appears to be that INSTITUTIONAL RACISM has now become an aspect of British life
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 11:21 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 11:05 AM

Another aspect of Brexit appears to be that INSTITUTIONAL RACISM has now become an aspect of British life
Jim Carroll

Nice try Jim.
If you actually read the link you made, it relates to a period before the Brexit vote.

And claims about the police being institutionally racist have been around since at least 1999 Here

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 12:08 PM

"If you actually read the link you made, it relates to a period before the Brexit vote."
The Brexit vote was sold and carried on a racist ticket - that same racism existed before the event and continues - they are two events linked by ongoing racism in Britain
As far as the Lawrence murder is concerned, the police have insisted that they cleaned up their act - obviously not the case
Maybe I should have written Another aspect of the Brexit mentality....
Same thing in the long run - especially to the victims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 01:10 PM

"we've acted like petulant schoolboys moaning and groaning about how much we have to pay, etc., and about all those other illusory issues"

A typical response from one who has suckled from the trough of public largesse all his life.

Nothing illusory about dosh when earned by the sweat of your brow stevie boy. But you would know nothing about that would you?
That rose tinted corbyn dreamworld you inhabit has lost all contact with reality. I can see no other way to explain the inanity of your incessant witterings.
Never mind. one day you will wake up and realise your stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 01:11 PM

He got you good and proper BWM :-) Those hoops were high and you went and jumped through them. We all make the same mistake periodically though so I can understand it.

I though the proper coded response was 'TC' though ;-)

On a more serious note, it is becoming obvious the longer that thread goes on that the the brexiteers are running shit scared of being proven to have made the wrong choice. The arguments as to why we should still leave are getting more and more ludicrous as the imminent disaster looms ever closer. Just you watch, as and when the disaster does occur they will blame those wishing to remain in the EU for being unpatriotic and wishing the disaster on us.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 01:48 PM

I know, Dave - I think his idiocy is infectious! I certainly caught a dose, but I'm over it now, he's on his own.

I'm Not too sure that the BrexShitters will ever acknowledge what a crock of shit they've landed us in - just like Tory voters (which I reckon many of them are), they'll blather on about how much better things are than when we were in the EU. They'll be in total denial. But, if they do try to blame the Remainers, well that's just par for the course - I've forgotten how many times I've been told by BrexShitters to "Get behind are (sic) country", and that I'm "A traitor who should be arrested, marched out and shot". Thick cunts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 03:06 PM

Iains, If you can read this .......... thank a teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 03:11 PM

Raggt.
I was taught by Jesuits. Try again!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 03:18 PM

Hmmm ..................

Were the Jesuits also teachers?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 04:03 PM

Ahhhhh, that explains the predilection for abusing others while allowing his masters to shaft him :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 04:04 PM

Financial Times re Post Brexit

Does this article give a taste of the future for British wage earners.
Does gaining control mean giving the Tory part ways to screw workers they havnt been able to access for years?

Its the same the whole world over
Isnt it a rotten shame
Its the rich wot gets the pleasure
and the poor wot gets the blame

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 04:10 PM

Kenny, unfortunately that is a pay per view site.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 04:29 PM

Hi Raggy I got it by Googling " Financial Times Brexit" and paging down for the article showin the big RED? Bus .....m it appeared on my FB but has since vanished from my FB

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 04:29 PM

"A typical response from one who has suckled from the trough of public largesse all his life."
#A typical comment from one who dredges the depths of fascist antisemitism for his arguments
Just when you thought it was safe to get back in n the water
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 04:53 PM

iains - are you criticising someone who has 'suckled from the trough of public largesse all his life?' do you mean someone who has worked as a government employee? i've mostly done that too - teaching in an FE college, working in a homeless hostel and now working for disabled adults. is this wrong? am i scrounging or something? what a sick world you must inhabit if you think that we workers are somehow 'suckling' off tax payers. are you invigorated by the (mostly) american idea of selling off as much of our common wealth as possible to private investment? get a grip. our public services are this country's strength and our last defence against cowboy capitalist rule

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 05:13 PM

Meanwhile, over in Europe the support for Teresa May's statements this afternoon seems rather thin.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 07:32 PM

Well, Nigel, let's look again at my "long, unstructured rant." Here's a distillation of the points in there that you are clearly so uncomfortable with that you find the path of least resistance is to glibly dismiss it all as a "rant." Do note that my post lambasted not only the EU but also the party of which I'm a paid-up member.

*A few phrases such as "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels," "the EU gravy train," "taking back control," "immigrants driving down wages," "immigrants straining our public services," "ever closer union," "stealing our sovereignty," add more of your own. Not one of those is based on a honest assessment of where we are today as EU members.

*...we are a major member of a huge free-trading bloc with whom we do half our trade in goods.

*The fact that we are a leading financial services centre not only in Europe but in the world: there are plenty of financial institutions in the EU who are now licking their lips at the prospect of grabbing big lumps of that for themselves once the bureaucracy has hobbled us after brexit.

*The fact that, because you can't be in the EU unless you sign up to democracy, human rights and the rule of law, we don't have wars in Europe any more.

*There's a lot wrong with the EU. The EU fisheries and agricultural policies are great ideas gone bad. The bureaucracy is definitely unwieldy and top-heavy. An EU army is just a bloody bad idea. The common currency was a deal that an average sixth-former could have told you would never work properly.

* But as a big, influential member of the club we should be right in there fighting for reform.

*Trade will be difficult and finding new trading partners to do deals with will be hard, considering that we don't make much stuff and a lot of what we do make can't compete with the likes of China with its vast production scales and cheap labour.

*The services sector which is over three-quarters of our economy will be badly hit by levels of bureaucracy so far unheard of.

*We will have skilled labour shortages all over the economy as EU workers increasingly find this country a very unattractive place to come to, if they can get in at all.

*We've already discovered, surprise surprise, that we may be able to control people coming in but we can't control them leaving. EU citizens are already voting with their feet.

*I'm not voting for people who put political posturing above the interests of this country, and that includes Jeremy Corbyn, who, instead of putting up a feisty opposition to brexit and presenting the country with a genuine alternative, seems to have become totally paralysed. The interests of this country are far more important than sticking to ridiculous and pusillanimous standpoints such as "we must abide by the will of the people."

*As even Nigel has pointed out, it was just over a third who expressed that will. Another third expressed the opposite and just under another third kept schtum. That is not an overwhelming mandate to take all of us, especially the young, to hell in a handcart...

Whether you agree or not with what I say, it ill-behoves an idiot who tends to pepper his posts mostly with long quotes from other posters, including, tediously, the thread title, date and time of post and poster's name-PM, then one or two lines of snarky, ill-informed distemper of his own, to criticise someone else who spends a fair amount of time constructing posts with closely-argued points. Please either take on those points one by one - there they are, Nigel, spelled out for you - or just clear off with your vexatious, lazy nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 07:35 PM

Please don't respond to Iains, chaps. One day he's bound to go the way of other recent trolls once the mods pick up on him, which they will. Ignoring him makes the case stronger.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 08:48 PM

From DMcG's link, so we lose our financial services passport. I've been saying this for months, but the brexiteers gloss over it. Around four-fifths of our economy is based on financial services. Quite a chunk, eh? But once we leave we lose that passport. It means huge bureaucratic and fiscal barriers will be put in the way of our services sector dealings with the EU. We will certainly lose some of those services to the EU and the ones remaining will be hobbled. Anyone hear that in the referendum debate?   Not me!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 02:05 AM

Anither interesting thing in laat night's EU comments is that, even if as a result of a fresh election where the winner had a mandate to cancel Brexit - and I am sure all those insisting on the will of the people would accept that (!) - the EU may decide we have to leave anyway. Or, and I think this more likely - there would be a price for ataying and I think it would be loss of vetos etc more than financial.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 04:56 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 07:32 PM

Well, Nigel, let's look again at my "long, unstructured rant." Here's a distillation of the points in there that you are clearly so uncomfortable with that you find the path of least resistance is to glibly dismiss it all as a "rant." Do note that my post lambasted not only the EU but also the party of which I'm a paid-up member.

*A few phrases such as "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels," "the EU gravy train," "taking back control," "immigrants driving down wages," "immigrants straining our public services," "ever closer union," "stealing our sovereignty," add more of your own. Not one of those is based on a honest assessment of where we are today as EU members.
As an 'honest assessment' of where we are today.
Unelected bureaucrats: The EU commission (the EU's executive body) The commission president and the individual commissioners are not directly elected by the peoples of Europe and we cannot sack them.
The gravy train: your original post (second paragraph) mentioned Nigel Farage as an example of someone benefitting from the gravy train, while you are claiming it's not an honest assessment. Which is it? And while picking on Farage, why not add the Kinnock family who continue to ride the train for all it's worth?
Taking back control: You're right, it's not an example of where we are today, rather where we wish to be.
Immigrants straining public services: this is a complex question, but that doesn't mean that it can just be dismissed with a wave of the hand.
Ever closer union: is the continuing mantra of the EU, and meant that the referendum was not a choice between leaving the EU and maintaining the status quo, as the status quo was never an option.
Stealing our sovereignty: is not a claim I've ever heard. Our parliament was slowly giving away our sovereignty.

*...we are a major member of a huge free-trading bloc with whom we do half our trade in goods.
About 43% of UK exports in goods and services went to other countries in the EU in 2016 240 billion pounds out of 550 billion pounds total exports.
That share has generally been declining, since exports to other countries have increased at a faster rate.
54% of our imports into the UK came from other countries in the EU in 2016. That proportion has fallen since reaching a peak of 58% in 2002, although it's been rising slowly again since 2011.
So although half our trade in goods may be with the EU, the balance is changing, and as imports from EU exceed exports to EU the balance of trade is that they need our markets more than we need theirs. (above details from Here)

*The fact that we are a leading financial services centre not only in Europe but in the world: there are plenty of financial institutions in the EU who are now licking their lips at the prospect of grabbing big lumps of that for themselves once the bureaucracy has hobbled us after brexit.
They may be licking their lips at the hope of grabbing big lumps. That doesn't mean that we will simply give in and allow such a grab to happen.

*The fact that, because you can't be in the EU unless you sign up to democracy, human rights and the rule of law, we don't have wars in Europe any more.
We already had democracy, human rights and the rule of law. These are not things given to us by the EU. Equating the lack of wars in Europe with the presence of the EU ignores the work done by NATO. As the EU does not, yet, have its own army I believe you are greatly overstating its importance.

*There's a lot wrong with the EU. The EU fisheries and agricultural policies are great ideas gone bad. The bureaucracy is definitely unwieldy and top-heavy. An EU army is just a bloody bad idea. The common currency was a deal that an average sixth-former could have told you would never work properly.
And yet the EU continue to push for greater integration, an expansion of the eurozone, and the presence of an EU army.

* But as a big, influential member of the club we should be right in there fighting for reform.
We have tried that. Cameron thought he could get the EU to backtrack to avoid Brexit. See what happened. To the EU in general there is only one possible direction of travel, that is closer integration. If the UK was acting as a brake, in any way, it was only slowing that integration. We had no chance of stopping it.

*Trade will be difficult and finding new trading partners to do deals with will be hard, considering that we don't make much stuff and a lot of what we do make can't compete with the likes of China with its vast production scales and cheap labour.
Europe will still want to trade with us. They sell us more than they buy from us, and can't afford to lose our market, together with losing our funding.

*The services sector which is over three-quarters of our economy will be badly hit by levels of bureaucracy so far unheard of.
Good argument that one. We will be hit by bureauocracy so far unheard of. If it's unheard of, how can you factor it into your arguments?

*We will have skilled labour shortages all over the economy as EU workers increasingly find this country a very unattractive place to come to, if they can get in at all.
Any reason why you believe they will find this country 'unattractive'?

*We've already discovered, surprise surprise, that we may be able to control people coming in but we can't control them leaving. EU citizens are already voting with their feet.
Financial times shows that net migration (EU to UK) has fallen to a new low, but that is still net migration to the UK. So those 'voting with their feet' are still voting to come here.

*I'm not voting for people who put political posturing above the interests of this country, and that includes Jeremy Corbyn, who, instead of putting up a feisty opposition to brexit and presenting the country with a genuine alternative, seems to have become totally paralysed. The interests of this country are far more important than sticking to ridiculous and pusillanimous standpoints such as "we must abide by the will of the people."
Yes, the interest of the country, and of its people are more important. It's just that we disagree whether those interests are better served by us being a separate sovereign nation, or a part of the EU.

*As even Nigel has pointed out, it was just over a third who expressed that will. Another third expressed the opposite and just under another third kept schtum. That is not an overwhelming mandate to take all of us, especially the young, to hell in a handcart...
No it's not a mandate to take us to hell in a handcart. But many of us do not believe the doom merchants who say that is where Brexit will lead.

Whether you agree or not with what I say, it ill-behoves an idiot who tends to pepper his posts mostly with long quotes from other posters, including, tediously, the thread title, date and time of post and poster's name-PM, then one or two lines of snarky, ill-informed distemper of his own, to criticise someone else who spends a fair amount of time constructing posts with closely-argued points. Please either take on those points one by one - there they are, Nigel, spelled out for you - or just clear off with your vexatious, lazy nonsense.
Your 'dark side' is starting to show again.
I quote earlier posts, with times etc. as the responses may not immediately follow the original, and it makes it easier to follow what has been said. The time stamp allows other readers to see that I am not deliberately misquoting anyone, or attributing opinions to the wrong person (which some on here do).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 05:04 AM

"*The fact that we are a leading financial services centre not only in Europe but in the world: there are plenty of financial institutions in the EU who are now licking their lips at the prospect of grabbing big lumps of that for themselves once the bureaucracy has hobbled us after brexit.
They may be licking their lips at the hope of grabbing big lumps. That doesn't mean that we will simply give in and allow such a grab to happen"

You obviously didn't read my post of a few days ago which briefly outlined potential job losses on day one when we leave the EU or my posts regarding overtures made by the banking and finance industries to the Irish Finance minister immediately after the referendum.

The Government, no matter which colour, cannot prevent companies moving operations elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 05:59 AM

"Please don't respond to Iains, chaps. One day he's bound to go the way of other recent trolls once the mods pick up on him, which they will. Ignoring him makes the case stronger."

Meanwhile the mudrat bullies can continue without censure.

No surprise few people continue to contribute to the BS part of mudcat.

If reasoned argument is trolling then then let the dice play as they will!


and here is something for the rats to gnaw on: CBI everything is awesome

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 06:06 AM

You obviously didn't read my post of a few days ago which briefly outlined potential job losses on day one when we leave the EU or my posts regarding overtures made by the banking and finance industries to the Irish Finance minister immediately after the referendum.

The Government, no matter which colour, cannot prevent companies moving operations elsewhere.
I've found and read the link now: Brexity, City of London from the Guardian.
It is talking about a reduction of 10,500 jobs, but states that this figure has fallen from 12,500 a year ago. So it's just another estimate, possible more reliable than its previous one, possibly not.

The Government can't prevent companies moving elsewhere, it can only encourage businesses to remain, or move here.
there may even be a compensating movement of business to the UK once we are outside the regulation of the EU.

No one said that leaving the EU would be all gains, with no losses. many of those who voted to leave did so in the knowledge that there would be gains and losses, but looking at the overall picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 06:09 AM

"#A typical comment from one who dredges the depths of fascist antisemitism for his arguments"

A fine example of both trolling and jimmy the twerps "made up shit"

Put your money where your mouth is jimmie and give an example of my fascist antisemitic statements.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 06:09 AM

Sorry Iains, if you have to resort to blogs like "Guido Fawkes" to secure "news" favourable to the pro Brexit lobby you really are scraping the barrel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 06:13 AM

Yes Nigel the figure has been curtailed from 12,500 to 10,500 but that was a suggested figure for DAY ONE.

The following weeks and months MAY see many further job losses and the revenue earned from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 06:33 AM

Yes Nigel the figure has been curtailed from 12,500 to 10,500 but that was a suggested figure for DAY ONE.

The following weeks and months MAY see many further job losses and the revenue earned from them.

They may also see a reduction in job losses, just as the past twelve months have. That seems to be the trend in their figures.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 06:42 AM

Can you really discern a trend from just two set of figures?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 07:06 AM

One more thing from this mornings press Nigel, which may put the cat among the pigeons in the financial world, is Michael Barniers statement that no "special deal" will be made for that sector of the UK economy. This in itself may lead to larger job losses and the loss of subsequent revenue.

No Special Deal

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 07:23 AM

One more thing from this mornings press Nigel, which may put the cat among the pigeons in the financial world, is Michael Barniers statement that no "special deal" will be made for that sector of the UK economy. This in itself may lead to larger job losses and the loss of subsequent revenue.
But Michael Barnier does not have the final say. He can recommend, but must put everything before the 27 remaining members.

If you want 'breaking news', why not look at the call to exit the EU with a clean break? Here

The more obstacles the EU put in the way, with their attitude to Brexit, the more likely we will end up with "No deal".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 07:47 AM

But Michael Barnier does not have the final say. He can recommend, but must put everything before the 27 remaining members.


Absolutely true, Nigel. So look at the track record for which of his recommendations are accepted, if the 27 seem to be supporting him and so on. Then look at the track of the UK demands and which of them have made it to the progress report.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 08:22 AM

"But Michael Barnier does not have the final say. He can recommend, but must put everything before the 27 remaining members."

Good grief! A Tory brexiteer admitting that those unelected Brussels bureaucrats can't actually impose anything. Pity you didn't tell us that during the referendum campaign. Wouldn't have sat well with all the taking-back-control hubris, I suppose!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 08:36 AM

Good grief! A Tory brexiteer admitting that those unelected Brussels bureaucrats can't actually impose anything. Pity you didn't tell us that during the referendum campaign. Wouldn't have sat well with all the taking-back-control hubris, I suppose!

Good grief! Steve Shaw describing Michael Barnier as an "unelected Brussels bureaucrat", where he previously claimed the terminology was dishonest, whatever next?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 08:54 AM

Oh, Nigel, I remember you chastising Jim for not getting the joke you made about answering a question with a question. Surely you are not suggesting that you did not understand the irony in Steve's statement. Or is your response another joke that we don't understand? If so, may I suggest you stick to 'knock knock' jokes?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 09:04 AM

He's Keefy's new apprentice, Dave. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 09:06 AM

He has a long way to go...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 09:18 AM

Oh, Nigel, I remember you chastising Jim for not getting the joke you made about answering a question with a question. Surely you are not suggesting that you did not understand the irony in Steve's statement.
I'm glad you can see irony in it.
Steve has a history of withdrawing comments at a later date, or claiming they were 'whimsy'.
Is his describing me as a 'tory brexiteer' also irony?
If not, how can you decide what his intended meaning was?

And I'm no-ones apprentice. (or was that also meant to be ironic?)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 09:30 AM

Yeh, see what you mean BWM. Certainly picking up on the different language principle :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 09:38 AM

You've got them retreating into their clubby pettiness there Nigel which shows you are besting them, good work keep it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 10:29 AM

TC

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 11:23 AM

I guess not everyone is as stupid as some on here

Latest poll results.

Shame they did not realise it before the referendum.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 11:33 AM

I guess not everyone is as stupid as some on here
Latest poll results.
Shame they did not realise it before the referendum.

Claiming that your opponents are 'stupid' suggests that you do not have persuasive arguments available to you.

Interesting that your link, to the Independent gives almost exactly the same percentage result that they gave for the last poll before the referendum: Independent and we all remember how that poll looked when viewed against the reality of the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 12:04 PM

The gnome has a very peculiar logic. The referendum results are an absolute value. A poll is simply a poll. The accuracy cannot be guaranteed. In fact some recent ones have been demonstrably wrong. So what point the funny little creature is trying to make escapes me entirely. 'Twould seem the stupid one is he.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 01:05 PM

2100...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 01:52 PM

I'm not too bothered by polls either way. The referendum mattered, and the elections matter, but not polls.

So let us try a thought experiment, making three big assumptions. All painful for some here, but I hope they agree they are not impossible. Unlikely, perhaps, and unwanted, but not impossible.

Suppose
(a) an election is called next year
(b) Labour is finally clear and says it will leave the EU, but wants to be as close as possible, including keeping the single market and the social chapter on the same terms as now
(c) Labour win the election.


In that hypothetical situation, will the leave supporter here be arguing that the will of the people for such a soft Brexit must be respected?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 02:36 PM

Hi Nige

l<"No one said that leaving the EU would be all gains, with no losses. many of those who voted to leave did so in the knowledge that there would be gains and losses, but looking at the overall picture.">

So true Nigel but "some people prefer not to see it that way"....

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 02:56 PM

"A poll is simply a poll. "
Unless, of course, it comes up with the answers you are looking for
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 03:48 PM

You are a Tory brexiteer par excellence, Nigel. Take pride in it, mate! I love being called a leftie remainer. It's a badge of pride. I always find it amazing that Tories like Nigel absolutely HATE it when they get called Tories! It's almost as if they really know, as the rest of us do, that being a Tory is actually a horribly wrong thing to be. Just fancy aligning yourself with the party of self-interest, of exploitative landlordism, of the pyramid of unearned privilege, of tax evasion, of yuppies and fatcats, of me-first and to hell with the disabled, the badly-housed and the undeserving poor! But you talk Tory all the time, Nigel, and you DEFINITELY talk brexit. So that makes you a Tory brexiteer! Why take it as an insult!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 04:25 PM

Claiming that your opponents are 'stupid'

But that is not what I did is it, Nigel? Can you provide a link to where I said that any of my 'opponents' were stupid or are you going to do a Keith and stick by your statement even though there is no evidence? Maybe the different morality and different planet badges will be yours soon :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 06:33 PM

The wizened little gnome definitely belongs on a different planet.
If not suggesting the opponents are stupid then the only other people left in the equation are himself and all who sail with him.
As the old adage goes:
Stupid is as stupid does

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 06:54 PM

Iains, could I suggest that we all refrain from personal abuse

The forum has improved tremendously in recent weeks.

(KAOH excepted of course)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 08:00 PM

I could suggest to everyone of sound mind on this forum to refrain from responding in any way at all to anything that the misfit Iains posts from now on. He'll be gone soon and no-one of any importance will be influenced either by his posts or by your response to same. Let's just work to get shut of him, which means not really doing any work at all. Say no more. Literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 03:08 AM

Agreed, Steve. Anyone who considers this forum in terms of opponents and supporters is just not worth wasting time on.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 03:41 AM

Dave:

If that was aimed at me, as the previous post was:
Claiming that your opponents are 'stupid'

But that is not what I did is it, Nigel? Can you provide a link to where I said that any of my 'opponents' were stupid
Ok. Not your actual wording. But how else are we to understand your earlier post:
I guess not everyone is as stupid as some on here
Latest poll results.
Shame they did not realise it before the referendum.
You seem to think you can describe some people as 'stupid' (and from the discussion in which the post was made, it would appear that you mean those who support Brexit). But if anyone pulls you up on it you can say that is not what you meant.

Would you care to say who you were describing as 'stupid'?

As to considering the forum in terms of opponents & supporters, when I used the term 'opponents' on this thread, I was referring to opponents of your viewpoint (i.e. supporters of Brexit) as that is what this particular thread is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 03:43 AM

Nice to see all the rats gather. Those that post the most irritate the most. Think how much better the forum would be if you all got a life.

"Anyone who considers this forum in terms of opponents and supporters is just not worth wasting time on."

What a funny little creature you are. You consistently post arrant nonsense.
Have you all suddenly had a Damascene conversion, seen the light and become brexit supporters?

What a twerp!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 03:51 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 01:52 PM
I'm not too bothered by polls either way. The referendum mattered, and the elections matter, but not polls.
So let us try a thought experiment, making three big assumptions. All painful for some here, but I hope they agree they are not impossible. Unlikely, perhaps, and unwanted, but not impossible.
Suppose
(a) an election is called next year
(b) Labour is finally clear and says it will leave the EU, but wants to be as close as possible, including keeping the single market and the social chapter on the same terms as now
(c) Labour win the election.

In that hypothetical situation it would depend what the other parties to the election had had in their manifestos as well. Prior to the rise of UKIP we had many elections where neither of the main parties were prepared to consider leaving the EU, and we voted for the party we best considered able to lead the country. Voting for them didn't mean that we wanted to be part of Europe (as we weren't even being asked about that).

The referendum was a single-issue vote which allowed the public to make their preferences known.

In your hypothetical scenario, the Labour party might win, solely because of those who always vote Labour. It would not necessarily mean that those voters supported the manifesto view on how to deal with Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 03:58 AM

when I used the term 'opponents' on this thread, I was referring to opponents of your viewpoint

So do I Nigel, which is why I would never describe genuine opponents as stupid. I will always treat anyone with an opposing viewpoint with respect and accept that they are entitled to their own views, no matter how daft I think they are. The stupidity that goes on here has nothing to do with opposing viewpoints but with how some treat other people regardless of what they are saying and being so rigid as to never accept the merits of another person's argument.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 04:57 AM

I constructed that scenario, Nigel, to see if - short of a second referendum which I wouldn't want - there was any way of assessing "the will of the people" on the kind of Brexit that leavers would accept.

It sounds as if you think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 05:07 AM

Dave,
do a Keith and stick by your statement even though there is no evidence?

I PMd you the posts where you assumed Green's guilt, and the other evidence was that I correctly deduced your position on Green from reading your posts.
You are no supporter of Green, and your posts clearly show that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 05:09 AM

TC

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 05:58 AM

The gnome is actually an accomplished verbal chameleon. He changes his argument as soon as he is challenged.

Now who might the others be on this forum that behave in like manner?
A clue. They spend most of the day babbling on mudcat to provide a false persona of assumed superiority to cover for their real life inadequacies.

Most of us have other aspects of our lives that take precedence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 06:19 AM

Off home in a mo, Dave. Bloody northern drizzle ever since I arrived. I must say, that coffee shop at the top of Scholes Lane in Prestwich (the Coffee Sack) is a brilliant little place. Lovely grub and great coffee. I had avocado on toast with poached eggs. Mother had a beef bangers toasted butty. Five stars on Trip Advisor if I can be arsed!

Now what were we on about...?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 06:23 AM

The official Brexit anthem


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL8TJsM86x0

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 06:24 AM

What a coincidence! I was down in the Midlands on Monday and had avocado on toast with poached eggs in a cafe in Burton on Trent :-) Have a safe journey.

I think we were trying to have a sensible conversation. Buggered if I know what the others are on about.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 06:28 AM

I recommend you watch the follow on pizza video. It reminds me of many mindless discussions on mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 06:31 AM

To quote Terry Pratchett:

Sodomy non sapiens

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 06:41 AM

If anyone is interested in real musical satire rather than a tired rehash of a pop song with a poorly edited slide show you cannot go far wrong with Fascinating Aida's post-Brexit song

Enjoy.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 08:22 AM

Dave,
"TC"

When I asked BWM to justify his claims against me, you advised him not to jump through my hoops.
I willingly jumped through all your hoops over what I said about you, you conceded defeat three times, and yet you bring it up yet again on yet another thread!

I said you were in the anti-Green camp.
You are, but in your usual obsequious way pretend or imagine you have not revealed your position.
You have, so please drop it you sad man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 09:00 AM

But if anyone pulls you up on it you can say that is not what you meant.

You've pegged him perfectly, that's his favourite little game which he plays with nauseating frequency and thinks he's pulling the wool over everyone's eyes - deluded he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 09:26 AM

"The official Brexit anthem"
The words are about as undistinguisheable as the policy
How about this for an ALTERNATIVE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 09:39 AM

I had no idea that there might be an "official Brexit anthem".
If there has to be one maybe we would be better off taking something from Kipling:

IT IS always a temptation to an armed and agile nation
To call upon a neighbour and to say:
"We invaded you last night ; we are quite prepared to fight,
Unless you pay us cash to go away."
And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
And the people who ask it explain
That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld
And then you'll get rid of the Dane!

It is always a temptation for a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say:
"Though we know we should defeat you,
we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away."
And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.

It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
For fear they should succumb and go astray;
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to say: --
"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that plays it is lost!"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 09:50 AM

TC

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 10:45 AM

Apologies, Keith. I do realise that initials used could be offensive to you and do not mean much to anyone else.

I did suggest that they were used to indicate that a post was being ignored rather than continuing a pointless argument. I have rethought and now propose that a different vehicle is used.

How about 'Seen And Duly Given Indifferent Treatment'?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 11:02 AM

Dave,
Apologies, Keith. I do realise that initials used could be offensive to you

We are all grown ups here Dave, or the rest of us are.
No-one cares about your puerile name calling you sad man.

However, it does lowers the level of debate and it does harm Mudcat so I hope someone within Mudcat encourages you to desist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 11:03 AM

Whoops,

Dave,
Apologies, Keith. I do realise that initials used could be offensive to you

We are all grown ups here Dave, or the rest of us are.
No-one cares about your puerile name calling you sad man.

However, it does lowers the level of debate and it does harm Mudcat so I hope someone within Mudcat encourages you to desist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 01:10 PM

It should have just been SADGIT but, unfortunately, I cannot resist pointing out the irony in the statement

No-one cares about your puerile name calling you sad man.

However, it does lowers the level of debate

You couldn't make this stuff up. Mudcat would keep a comedy script team going for years.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 01:30 PM

Or, as Les Mis puts it:

"...but now there is a higher call.
Who cares about your lonely soul?
We strive towards a larger goal
Our little lives don't count at all!"

Let's remember that, for good or ill, we are talking about something that will affect us all, and generations to come. Taking and giving offence over who said what when is a bit on the trivial side, I suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 03:07 PM

"No-one cares about your puerile name calling you sad man."
An oxymoron by a moron
Made my day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 03:23 PM

Taking and giving offence over who said what when is a bit on the trivial side, I suggest.

Well said cousin McG. Thank you.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 03:46 PM

More good news from the Brexit camp.


Tories plan to scrap EU rules on work hours and paid holidays


It gets better and better...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 05:02 PM

The Mirror reported on 19th that Teresa May was asked eight times to rule that out, and refused to rule it out.

As always, Hansard is available if anyone wants to check the precise questions and answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 07:08 PM

Well the Tories are the supreme party of the scrapping of all workers' rights. They've been at it ever since Maggie took ideological revenge on the miners and steelworkers by trashing their communities and wrecking the futures and self-respect of millions of ordinary working people (whilst simultaneously giving the yuppies free rein to rip the country off). They dress it up via the ultimate euphemism "the flexible labour market." That basically means that trade unions are emasculated, that job security is a thing of the past, that temporary, part-time and bogus "apprenticeship" become de rigeur, that millions have to be declared "self-employed" so that employers don't have to pay their stamps or provide holiday or maternity pay, that a million or more can be put on zero-hours contracts, not knowing from day to day whether there will be work or pay. Blair's second-biggest sin was to fail to reverse that vengeance. Or was it his short-sighted failure to restore regulation of the banks... So, anyway, scrapping the working time directive, one of the EU's best and most humane rules, will be scrapped. No surprise there then.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 07:10 PM

A bit too much scrapping at the end there!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 07:37 PM

Totally shitty drive home, Dave. Roadworks M60. Roadworks M62. Massive 18.7 mile roadworks M6. Huge roadworks clogup at start of M5. Two lanes closed by silly twats shunting near Cribbs Causeway. That was another 45 minutes of my life up the spout and about a billion cost to the economy. The icing on the cake was thick drizzle and glaring headlights for at least 200 of the miles. I tell you, mate, I'm a shadow of me former self. And I have to confront erecting the bloody Christmas tree tomorrow. That's always a tribulation in our house as Mrs Steve is hopeless at gripping the bole and inserting the bolts at the bottom, and that, I assure you, is no double-entendre. The way I'm feeling tonight, that will be the last erecting I do until at least New Year's Day.

Anyway, what was that we were talking about? Something about the transition that Theresa had in mind but which ain't happening? Single market, customs union, court of justice, was it? Having to stick to EU rules but unable to vote, was it? Or was it the IMF telling us in kind words that we're not quite a basket case due to brexit but that we're heading that way...? Still, never mind. We can always just listen to Boris!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 08:48 PM

Anyway, are you there, MikeL2? Man U whacked by good ol' Westcountry Bristol City? How good is that! I expect you'll be blaming it on us remoaners...Still, I'll be able to rub salt in the wound when Liverpool slaughter Arsenal on Friday!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 04:05 AM

I had to smile at a point made in the article linked by DMcG

An economists’ study says Brexit is already costing Britain £350 million a week in lack of growth, investment and output.

Remainers were quick to point out the figure bore a remarking resemblance to the figure that certain pro-Brexit campaigners suggested would be available for the NHS after the UK's departure.

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 04:26 AM

Theresa May on the workers' rights issue,
“I have said that we will maintain workers’ rights and indeed enhance workers’ rights.”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 04:30 AM

"I have said that we will maintain workers? rights and indeed enhance workers? rights.?"
Betcha none of this includes a job, a job you want to do, a voice in the workplace and a half-decent living wage
Any takers

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 04:30 AM

We all know that Theresa May always sticks by what she says don't we...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 04:44 AM

We all know what happens when office holders are caught lying.
They get sacked.
She states she will "maintain" and "enhance" workers rights, and we do not need EU to tell us how to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 05:18 AM

"They get sacked."
You are joking!!
The lies that matter are protected by the 'Thirty Year' rule
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 06:59 AM

Also, according to

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 07:08 AM

Oops!

Forget that post, please. I am remembering an article where Gove(?) listed some of the enhancements but I can't find it just at the moment....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 10:22 AM

?I have said that we will maintain workers? rights and indeed enhance workers? rights.?

Watch what they DO, Professor, not what they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 10:49 AM

Greg, we have had a number of posts setting out what she did not say.
I posted what she did say.
What is your objection?

She could not renege on such a clear staement of intent without having to resign.

Are you saying we should ignore all such statements and manifestos?
That is stupid.
As electors we hold them to their promises or sack them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 11:00 AM

Hey Greg, like the one where Teresa May said there would be no snap general election !!

No general election

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 11:27 AM

Rag, here is how she justified it.

"So we need a general election and we need one now. We have at this moment a one-off chance to get this done while the European Union agrees its negotiating position and before the detailed talks begin."
"I have only recently and reluctantly come to this conclusion. Since I became prime minister I've said there should be no election until 2020, but now I have concluded that the only way to guarantee certainty and security for the years ahead is to hold this election and seek your support for the decisions we must take."

Jeremy Corbyn supported the move and a two thirds majority of MPs was required to bring the date forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 12:20 PM

She states she will "maintain" and "enhance" workers rights

Yes, she does. However, Gove, for example, regards getting rid of the Working Time Directive AS an enhancement.

The Department for Exiting the EU has produced relevant factsheet
This states quite clearly "The Repeal Bill will ensure that the workers’ rights that are enjoyed under EU law will continue to be available in domestic law after we have left the EU. This includes rights derived from EU law, such as the Working Time Directive and the Agency Workers’ Directive. This will give certainty and continuity to employees and employers alike,creating stability in which the UK can grow and thrive."

Which is all well and good, were it not that the amendment to explicitly include these in the Withdrawal Bill lost, and that May seems very reluctant to say the "rights derived from EU law, such as the Working Time Directive and the Agency Workers’ Directive will continue to be available in domestic law after we have left the EU".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 02:56 PM

It's amazing Greg, I post a reply to your comment, specifically naming you GREG in my post and a troll replies.

It is not the first time (or even second) this has happened by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 03:03 PM

Hi Steve

Yes I am here. I sat and watched Man United get torn to pieces by Bristol City. It was a good game to watch and in the end the result was just about right.

But remember we are still 2nd to Man City and we have a good record in the league.

Liverpool have the second best attack in the league but probably one of the worst defences.

I think the second half of the season is going to be very interesting with may 8 teams challenging for the four top positions.

Cheers Mike

PS Oh yt the way, how did Liverpool get in this cup competition ??

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 03:08 PM

Hi Steve

<" I expect you'll be blaming it on us remoaners...">

Why would I want to do that? I have no reason to blame the "remoaners" for anything. They are entitled to support who and what they like.
just as I am.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 03:11 PM

Unless Man City suffer some sort of catastrophe there would seem to be only one winner of this years Championship race.

As an armchair supporter of United even I have to admit City are playing very good football.

Perhaps we should start a separate thread !!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 06:51 PM

Man City are bankrolled by one of the world's richest men. It would be a disgrace if they didn't win everything every year (which they don't). Man U win their games ugly. Depressing to watch. Liverpool are by streets the most exciting team to watch. That'll do me. Just been up to Manchester for three days. Nowt but murk, drizzle, fog and traffic jams round Besses. The whole thing reminded me of watching, nay, ENDURING, any Man U game.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Dec 17 - 02:22 AM

Let me raise another of the likely enhancements, because it was in the last Conservative manifesto. It is likely that people could get the right to a year off work as maternity/paternity leave. Howevwr this was unpaid. So very few people could afford it. More to the point though, this might replace the existing scheme so the wxisting payments might stop. None of this was clear at the election but you can see how this, which wpuld make even the existing leave unaffordable for most people, could be "sold" as an enhancement.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 04:35 AM

It's amazing Greg, I post a reply to your comment, specifically naming you GREG in my post and a troll replies.

This is an open forum.
If you only want Greg's response use PM.
There was no trolling in any replies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 04:53 AM

Keith. The usual suspects treat the forum as a private club and as soon as the topic under discussion becomes uncomfortable for them they start their infantile tactics:
Discussing weeds, cheap booze and football.
Form into a ratpack and start bullying.
They then appeal to the moderators to close the thread.
Failing all the above they resort to trolling and puerile insults.

They also have a mutual appreciation society, where they can slap each other on the back when they feel they have trounced all contributors.
I suppose we should really feel sorry for them. If you look how many times a day they post, it is obvious they see reality in the cyber world. Perhaps the real world exposes their numerous inadequacies too sharply for comfort. Sad ,sad little men all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 05:10 AM

Jim, Dave, Greg, Raggytash, don't be suckered into responding to him. He's almost got enough rope.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 05:34 AM

Hi Steve

<" Still, I'll be able to rub salt in the wound when Liverpool slaughter Arsenal on Friday!">

Err... no salt rubbing !!!! A very entertaining game with some great goals.

Mind you a couple of weeks ago WE managed to beat Arsenal at Arsenal 3-1 !!!

All the best for the Holidays.

Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 05:51 AM

"The usual suspects treat the forum"
Eight lines of personal abuse without a single word on Brexit complaining about people posting off topic comments
You couldn't make it up!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 06:10 AM

I would like to express my sincere thanks and deep gratitude to the Brexiteers on their magnificence achievement of yesterday.

How wonderful it is that they have taken back control, my delight and joy is boundless.

Yes they have REALLY made a difference and from 2019 our passports will be Blue and not that nasty Maroon that other, lesser, Europeans use.

There just one slight little fly in the ointment, it seems we may be put to the back of the queue clearing customs in future.

Blue Passports

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 06:43 AM

And it seems the format is reviewed every fice years anyway and the colour coukd be changed at any time.

The £490 million sounds a lot but is for 11.5 years and currently a passport costs around £72 so a back of the envelope check suggests it is paid entirely by the passport holders.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 06:49 AM

Makes you proud to be British doesn't it.

In the Guardian editorial comment it also mentions the £600 annual rise in living costs since the Brexit vote, and of course this hits the lowest paid hardest.

Living Costs Increase

Not that most Brexiteers care a toss about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 08:13 AM

Ho HO HO!

Not only exceedingly bad at adding up but also conveniently forgetful (bit like the usual crowd on here)

Another seasonal journalistic scoop from Guido


https://order-order.com/2017/12/17/diane-forgets-backed-second-referendum/
and to save jimmie the trouble Guido is a yabbah yabbah yabbah (with no spelling mistakes)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 10:04 AM

As long as my passport fits into my Mountain Warehouse pouch wot I wear exclusively for getting through airports, I don't give a stuff what colour it is. The intriguing thing is that my passport expires four days after brexit but I shall have to renew it long before then. Will I be "marooned" for ten more years, I ask meself?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 10:17 AM

Inanes, how do you even FIND these conspiracy theory lunatic right-wing blogshites?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 10:27 AM

"Guido" is an extremist right-wing blogger as you are Adolphy
His word is as reliable as that of your anti Semite
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 12:06 PM

Greg you disappoint me. I was under the misapprehension that you possessed half a brain cell. Obviously I was wrong. You are obviously listening too much to jimmie the half a b.

Paul De Laire Staines is a British-Irish libertarian political blogger, who publishes the Guido Fawkes website. His website was described by The Daily Telegraph as "one of Britain's leading political blogsites"

This is quite unlike your goodself and jimmy who can rightly claim to be leading gobshites.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 12:24 PM

The wiki page you quote from (without a link I notice) also goes on the say "tittle tattle, gossip and rumours about Westminster's Mother of Parliaments"

Note TITTLE, TATTLE and GOSSIP and RUMOURS, not exactly a source a rational person would use to further any intelligent discussion.

Link

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 12:33 PM

I've said it several times, and it's only my opinion, but just cut Iains loose. Ignore everything he posts as if he hadn't posted at all. There's clearly something wrong with him. If we stop responding, he'll either stop posting or else he'll isolate himself, get even worse and make it easy for the mods to get rid of him. I don't think they bother looking in on these threads much because they think we're all at it. Show them that we can be restrained. Just sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 12:45 PM

Three more sentences of abuse and still no Brexit
What happened to the whinges of "sad-mannishness" or are you tring to become a member
Seig Heil, me old Adolphie
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 12:48 PM

I don't mind someone putting an alternative viewpoint but to use a blogger such as Guido Fawkes smacks of desperation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 01:56 PM

"The Daily Telegraph as "one of Britain's leading political blog sites""
If the official mouthpiece of a Party that's done a deal with a terrorist linked group says so, it must be true then!!
Sure it must!!
You've had the details of his CV - he is an extremist nutter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 08:49 PM

"A very entertaining game with some great goals."

Flippin' 'eck, Mike, are you going for the Understatement Of The Year trophy? That was the fastest, most thrilling and most exciting match I've seen since Burnley, with the sublime Jimmy Mac at inside right, beat Sheffield Wednesday 2-0 in the FA Cup on 7 March 1961. And yes, I was there at that one! Last night's match was played at blistering pace with lots of mistakes, two amazing counter-attacking teams going hell for leather, Liverpool having a very silly five minutes that set the game afire. None of your negative bus-parking Mourinho shite!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 04:27 AM

Perhaps the rats would like to peruse the shenanigans of abbot elsewhere.

Do we have to go back to the parable of the seagull and the crow?
If they shit on your head the end result is the same. You get covered in shit. It does not matter how facts are conveyed! Facts are facts.
Perhaps you rats could explain to jimmy - he seems to have a problem with such basic concepts.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/885839/Brexit-latest-news-Diane-Abbott-second-referendum-letter-constiuents


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5128199/Diane-Abbott-calls-second-referendum-deal-EU.html
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5025566/diane-abbott-mocked-after-she-wrongly-claims-she-wants-to-see-a-second-brexit-referendum/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 08:23 AM

Crikey, the Dally Empress, The Daily Heil and the Stun say the same thing. The only thing that that seems to prove is that it is a load of shite.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 09:07 AM

What's all this about a second referendum? We've already had it, in June last year. The first one was in 1975. It ill-behoves brexiteers to castigate those who now call for a third one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 10:56 AM

....and keep on having them until the result is deemed acceptable by our ruling elite.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 12:08 PM

"You couldn't make it up!!"
Jim Carroll

You are so right jimmie. I do not have to make it up. You do

For jimmie and the gnome. Abbot from her own mouth. Still accusing me of lying? Stupid boys!

at 10 minutes 40 seconds



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPPG0RzTdbc

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 02:56 PM

Oh the poor little darlings!

Link

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 03:07 PM

A rather damning editorial in the Observer.

Link

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 03:20 PM

"A rather damning editorial in the Observer"
Only to those gullible goons that believe it. It is an editorial more worthy of April Fool's Day. You should invest in a proper newspaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 03:48 PM

From the Observer link, re the passport shenanigans:

"Yet this very British piece of puerile chauvinism is a phenomenon worth examining. It speaks to a largely imagined era of global imperial glory, inflated and magnified by time."

Exactly. Another crumb for the little Englanders, with their illusory ideas of former glories (aka ruthless exploitation of those feckless black chappies...), to justify the ever-receding vision of a glorious future cut adrift from the EU...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 04:28 AM

The on-going saga of the Impact Assessments that David Davis said did not exist.

Impact Assessments

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 04:49 AM

It is only you remainers making a big issue about the passports, on this thread and a dedicated thread too!
The leavers here do not care. Trivial.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 07:02 AM

Speak for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 07:55 AM

This says it all...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 09:04 AM

Careful, John. Nige is one of Keith's heroes wot never lies...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 11:13 AM

Ha! Like I give a rat's arse! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 12:53 PM

From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 06:49 AM
Makes you proud to be British doesn't it.
In the Guardian editorial comment it also mentions the 600 pound annual rise in living costs since the Brexit vote, and of course this hits the lowest paid hardest.
Living Costs Increase

What a shame you don't seem to have read the link before posting it. it does mention 600 pounds, but what it says is: On one estimate British households are each more than 600 pound a year worse off following the vote.
Following that further link (to their own site) what the page actually says is:
British households are each more than 600 pound a year worse off following the vote to leave the European Union, according to one of the UK's leading economic forecasting bodies.

The National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) said it is 'almost certain' the leave vote has damaged living standards and hit the growth potential of the economy. The thinktank also scaled back its expectations for growth in the UK for the next three years.

So the 'facts' are "almost certain", in their view.
By the Guardian posting them as 'facts', and hiding the uncertainty in the smaller print they allow others (in this case themselves) to later put the same figures out as if they are an accepted certainty, allowing more credulous people to then quote them in turn.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 01:10 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 10:04 AM
As long as my passport fits into my Mountain Warehouse pouch wot I wear exclusively for getting through airports, I don't give a stuff what colour it is. The intriguing thing is that my passport expires four days after brexit but I shall have to renew it long before then. Will I be "marooned" for ten more years, I ask meself?

We've already discussed this (back in October). And you gave the impression you wanted to retain your maroon passport for another ten years.
As I explained then: You can renew your passport at any time. When you renew your passport, time left on your existing passport is added to your new one, up to a maximum of 9 months.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 03:55 PM

I notice Nigel that you do not refer in your post to the most salient sentence.

The rise in living costs are across the board, those with the least amount still face an increase that those with the most can probably afford.

Whether the increase is £500 per year or £700 per year if you don't have surplus income you will suffer.

Not that I expect you to be too concerned about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 04:22 PM

The most salient fact is that the organisation that produced the quoted figures is ALMOST certain. Almost = not quite = not sure.

Predicating an argument based on uncertainty rather negates it's validity. Perhaps they are being whimsical or more likely, as others here,they are full of sh*t,

I wonder if their conjectures are based on Heisenberg's uncertainty principle or more likely a thwarted effort to locate the scarlet pimpernel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 04:41 PM

Ignore it, chaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 04:58 PM

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

So let's not worry too much about the actual figure, Nigel. To the best of your understanding are people on median salaries the same, better off or worse off since the EU vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 03:16 AM

"Ignore it, chaps."

I see the thread is graced with a festive clown!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 03:34 AM

Obviously...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 05:09 AM

I'm pretty sure you will not get a straight forward answer to your question DmcG, Nigel will probably fudge around the subject by questioning the precise figure as is his wont.

The fact that inflation outweighs any pay increase for the less well off matters not one iota to him.

The fact of the matter is the poor, once again, are being hit hardest.

You, like I, understand that if you are fortunate enough to have a surplus income then you can ride the increase in costs, if you are living on the breadline then you suffer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 05:20 AM

How can we expect our elected representatives to discuss Brexit properly if information is withheld from them. It would now seem that the Chancellor has had studies carried out and is withholding them from Parliament.


Studies Withheld

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 05:28 AM

I am fortunate enough to have a good salary. This Christmas/New Year I am visiting my sons and their families who live near London. As a result I am staying in a Premier Inn at a cost of £274.

As is a habit of mine I frequently convert expenditure into minimum hours equivalent. So that would a pretty solid week's work at minimum hours before tax. Which, for a just-about-managing, is simply unaffordable. That has costs in terms of family cohension and mutual support, not just financial and that is equally important in my way of thinking. But because it has no monitary value there are those who dont let it cross their minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 05:37 AM

DMcG, we are lumbered with a low wage economy, but we have been for years.
You can not blame Brexit for every British shortcoming.

A major factor influencing low wages is uncontrolled immigration which Brexit is intended to address.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 05:44 AM

Steve,
Careful, John. Nige is one of Keith's heroes wot never lies...

Not true Steve.
I certainly do not agree with what he said in BWM's link.
More lies and personal attack Steve.
When will you address something I really have actually said?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 06:28 AM

(The wifi here is terrible- this is my third attempt to I will keep it short!)

Therw is an importanr difference between claiming Brexit is thw sole cause - which I don't - and that it is a contributing factor - which I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 06:29 AM

Typos that time were due to trying to get the message sent before the wifi dropped out again!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 07:39 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains - PM
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 03:16 AM

"Ignore it, chaps."

I see the thread is graced with a festive clown!


Guess who got a mirror for their xmas ?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 11:47 AM

I'd like to know who all these immigrants are who are demanding low wages.

Even Heseltine thinks that a Corbyn government abandoning brexit would be less damaging than the Tories seeing brexit though. I agree!

Michael Heseltine, the Tory grandee and former deputy prime minister, has suggested a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn could be less damaging than Brexit.

The peer made the claim, which is remarkable for a senior Conservative, in an interview for the Limehouse podcast about liberal and EU politics, as he was pressed on how catastrophic he believes Brexit will be for the UK.

Heseltine, a longstanding pro-EU politician, signalled that he still views a Labour government as having a negative effect on the country, but said leaving the EU could be worse in the long term. He also suggested Labour would eventually turn against Brexit and the Conservatives would be ?left holding the baby?, as leaving the EU grows more unpopular.

Asked what could happen under five years of a Corbyn government, he said: "Well, we have survived Labour governments before. Their damage tends to be short-term and capable of rectification. Brexit is not short-term and is not easily capable of rectification. There will be those who question whether the short-term pain justifies the avoidance of the long-term disaster."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 02:12 PM

And it's amusing to see Tory grandees, such as the abysmal Tebbit, getting uppity about Tarzan's exercising of his free speech!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 02:20 PM

My last post but one should have said "seeing brexit through."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 02:36 AM

In 49 years of work, much of it at senior management level, and involved in finance and recruitment, I never once experienced prospective employees offering to work for less pay than existing workers, nor expressing the opinion that the pay-rate on offer was too high. Almost always, the opposite situation prevailed, and higher rates were being sought by interviewees.

Now, BrexShitter-Bumpkins, repeat after me..."That immigration reduces pay-rates is one of the most malicious lies of the BrexShit campaign - employEES don't seek to REDUCE pay-rates, employERS do that".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 04:11 AM

You may choose to believe that large scale immigration does not suppress wages, but it does.
It also puts pressure on services and housing.
There are also benefits to immigration, but the beneficiaries tend to be the better off while those at the bottom suffer most.

DMcG, there was a devaluation which most people ascribe to Brexit. That causes inflation for about a year and then things settle at the new level.
What else?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 04:17 AM

"You may choose to believe that large scale immigration does not suppress wages, but it does."

How? Describe, precisely, the process by which is does that please, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 04:21 AM

"then things settle at a new level. What else?"
Nothing else is needed if the 'new level' has things more expensive relative to the wages.

Moreover, to mention other things would be taken as a chance to ignore this one. I am fairly sure you will even use this explanation to claim I couldn't suggest anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 04:23 AM

Not my field.

Ed Miliband: “When millions of workers already have low pay and poor job security in Britain and we add high levels of low-skilled migration, mostly from within the EU, some benefit but some lose out. It isn’t prejudiced to believe that.”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 04:33 AM

DMcG, devaluation has increased prices, but has also led to more employment.
Some dispute that the devaluation would not have happened anyway.

Brexit has yet to happen and there is little evidence of any other significant impact on living standards.

BWM,
"Mass migration is driving down the wages being offered to British jobseekers, a major report by the Bank of England has found.
Economists at the Bank found that increases in immigration have reduced the pay on offer to care workers, waiting staff, and cleaners, as the competition for these jobs has risen.
The Bank calculated that a 10 percentage point rise in the proportion of immigrants would reduce the average pay received in these semi and unskilled service sector roles by 1.9 percent.

The report is the first to examine the impact of migration using up-to-date statistics.
Previous attempts to gauge the pressure migrants have put on so-called "native" wages have focused on data running up until the early 2000s, before countries including Poland, Hungary and Lithuania joined the bloc in 2004.
The Prime Minister in 2010 pledged that he would get net migration down to the “tens of thousands” by the 2015 election.
However, in recent years the number of foreigners entering the UK has soared.

The ONS estimated that net migration will run at 198,000 a year on average over the 25 years Photo: Alamy
It last week emerged that more than a million migrants who have come to the UK in recent years are unaccounted for.
Ministers have failed to release data which experts believe could show the true number of EU migrants coming to the UK, with experts warning that it means that the total number of foreigners coming to Britain could be hundreds of thousands higher than previously thought.
Official Government statistics in August showed that net migration rose 94,000 last year to an all-time high of 330,000.
According to the Bank of England report, some 0.5 per cent of the fall in wages is the result of the lower wages immigrants are paid, which has dragged down the average wage of low skilled workers.
Bank economists said that it was "striking" that this impact was so small compared with the overall effect.
This suggests that the "vast majority" of immigration's impact on overall earnings is felt by native workers, Bank economists said.
The study looked at 23 years of data, running up until last year.
Lord Green, the chairman of the Migration Watch think-tank, said: “For many years the immigration lobby have claimed that there is no evidence that immigration has any significant effect on the wages of British workers.
“This new research by the Bank of England blows their claims out of the water. It has found a significant negative impact on those in the lower skilled services sector in which six million UK born are working. This amounts to nearly a quarter of all British workers.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12063052/Mass-migration-driving-down-wages-offered-to-British-jobseekers.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 04:45 AM

Is it funny how experts are always so much more believable if they say things you thought already?

However, please provide a link to the actual report so I can read it. As you know, I have stated many times on these thread that it is important to know what was actually said than what several levels of interpretation claim it said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 04:53 AM

DMcG, here is a BBC piece on our economy in 2017.
Brexit is not mentioned once as a cause of any of our problems.

Here are some cherry picked extracts,

Opening paragraph,
"It was the year the UK stock market broke through a price barrier it set back in 1999. The unemployment rate reached lows not seen for 42 years as record numbers of people found themselves in work. "

" since the economic crisis of 2008 but in 2017 a new grievance was added to the decade-long austerity fatigue. After a two-year period in which pay rises narrowly exceeded negligible inflation, prices started rising faster than pay - meaning on average people were getting a little poorer every day.

The main reason behind stagnant pay was, as every economist in the land told us throughout 2017, poor productivity. That is measured as the value of stuff made or services provided per worker, per hour. When it goes up, you can afford to pay workers more, their living standards improve and they pay a bit more tax for public services - everyone is happy. When productivity doesn't go up, none of those good things happens."

(One factor effecting productivity is that a pool of cheap labour discourages investment in automation)

"Let's end on a note of cheer. Thanks to the wealth destruction of the financial crisis, changes to UK tax policy lifting many lower earners out of income tax altogether and a higher national minimum wage, income inequality has actually declined in the UK in the past decade. "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42399309

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 04:54 AM

So, you can't explain how it works. Typical cut-and-paste stuff. No explanations, just others' opinions, not your own. Typical.

I asked you to explain precisely the process by which immigrants lower UK wage rates. You have failed. I explained to you that employees don't set pay-rates, they are set by employers, therefore it is not immigrants who are reducing wage-levels, but unscrupulous employers who are seeking to undercut wage-rates by deliberately employing immigrants.

So, I ask again, please explain precisely the process by which immigrants 'suppress wage levels'. No cut-and-pastes of others' opinions - those are not an explanation, they're just opinions which you appear to blindly accept (no surprise, you accepted all the other BrexShit bollocks unquestioningly) - no made-up shit, no wriggling like a 'Strictly' dancer, no answering a question with a question, just an explanation of precisely how it works, in your own words.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 04:56 AM

Apologies for the underlining error - shitty HTML.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 04:58 AM

DMcG, intro to report with link to main body,
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/working-paper/2015/the-impact-of-immigration-on-occupational-wages-evidence-from-britain

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 04:59 AM

"Not my field".

From the one who claims to have all the answers!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 05:01 AM

BWM,
I asked you to explain precisely the process by which immigrants lower UK wage rates

I can not. It is not my field.
Ask Miliband or the Bank of England economists how they came to their conclusion, not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 05:02 AM

From the one who claims to have all the answers!

Now you lie about me. I would never make such a ludicrous claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 05:14 AM

Thanks for the link, Keith. I don't expect to have time to read it for about 8 hours so will comment then.

On the "productivity" problem I think Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" gives some strong clues because it distinguishes between different kinds of job only so of which produce wealth. The "Adam Smith Institute" has gone a long way from the original theories.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 05:48 AM

I asked for your explanation, I asked you not to wriggle, and there you go wriggling.

I gave you an explanation, based on my own many years in senior management in international companies, of how 'suppression of wage rates' is the result of unscrupulous practices by employers. All you've given us are copy-and-pastes of other people's opinions about a link between such suppressed wage-rates and immigration, but no explanation of the workings of that link. No attempt to discuss that which I proposed.

I quote your words from the 'Damian Green' thread - "So why can you not quote anything I have got wrong, or challenge anything I have actually posted?"

Thoroughly dishonest and disreputable tactics, Prof. You should hang your head in shame. Oh, I forgot - you have no shame!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 06:24 AM

I have now skim read the paper. Section 3 is a mathematical model and so cannot be properly appreciated on so quick a review. Nevertheless, I can report the entire paper is really about how equation 8 behaves so everything depends on how good a model that is.

What it does not do is give any sort of mechanism of the kind BMW is seeking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 06:46 AM

I suggest that those who admit that economics is not their field refrain from commenting on it and stop posting snippets that simply show one side of the argument. I remember to this day my economics lecturer's comment very early in the economics modules of my business studies couse. If all the economists in the world were laid end to end, they still would not reach a conclusion. Very tongue in cheek of course but underlining the fact that economics is not an exact science with right and wrong answers.


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 06:55 AM

You are right, Dave. Most people do not appreciate that any mathematical model has built in assumptions and they may go unrecognised. This was brought home to me when I was studying queuing theory as part of my masters. We had five students and two lecturers and each piece of coursework invariably got seven different answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 10:06 AM

BWM,
All you've given us are copy-and-pastes of other people's opinions about a link between such suppressed wage-rates and immigration,

Yes. Ed Miliband and the Bank of England economists who know at least as much about it as you do despite your "years in senior management."

Dave and DMcG, this is from the introduction of the Bank of England report.
"Our results also reveal that the biggest impact of immigration on wages is within the semi/unskilled services occupational group."

You choose to dismiss their findings for your own reasons, but they stand.
Please direct your objections to them. I expect they will immediately withdraw the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 10:14 AM

I haven't dismissed their findings at all, Keith. But I do want to see what cautions and caveats they put on how the information is used, what assumptions can be drawn and what can't. They split they their findings down into three or four sections of the population. It would be surprising if one of these was not 'most affected' but it does not follow the difference between most and least affected is large. That's why we need to read the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 10:18 AM

DmcG you may want to note that they talk about wages OFFERED, that would lead me to believe it was the employers who were driving down wages.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 10:19 AM

That's why we need to read the whole thing.

Not if you only want to know if they found that immigration depresses wages or not.
They found that it did, just as I stated in the post that started all this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 10:23 AM

that would lead me to believe it was the employers who were driving down wages.

I believe that too Rag, and they always will if they can.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 10:37 AM

""Our results also reveal that the biggest impact of immigration on wages is within the semi/unskilled services occupational group."

This is the same socio economic group that is unsurprisingly the most at risk of increasing automation shrinking their employment prospects.
This potentially is a far greater problem than immigration.
The lower the educational requirements, the more likely the job is to be automated: the risk of automation to jobs requiring GCSE-level education is 46 per cent; this falls to only around 12% for those with undergraduate degrees.
    These changes will have a far greater impact on society than Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 11:10 AM

I don't recall dismissing anything either, cousin McG. In fact by saying that there are no right of wrong answers we are showing acceptance of this argument as being part of the issue. But not all of it. One of the issues not addressed by this argument is the fact that while productivity increases, real wages continue to fall for all but the top earners. This will of course be dismissed in a tit for tat exchange that goes nowhere by those trying to convince us that all the UK's ills will be resolved when all those Polish plumbers are sent home ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 04:02 PM

Once again I post naming one specific person to whom my post was addressed.

Once again a troll interjects.

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 08:21 PM

Heard on the NPR news this Ante-Meridian that the Brits will offer their non-Euro new UK Passport in a new blue color (which may be the old blue colour).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 04:16 AM

A fine analogy :-)

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 04:34 AM

Not if you only want to know if they found that immigration depresses wages or not.

If that is all you want to know, I agree. However, for any sensible discussion you also want to know how much and in the bit you posted you see they said a 10% change in the proportion of immigrant:native workers - which needs far more than a 10% change in the nunber of immigrant workers by the way - is estimated bt the model at 1.88% change in wages. In the context of around 14% devaluation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 04:45 AM

I should say that even that last post of mine is a gross simplification of the report because that is only true for certain sectors. As always, I encourage people to read the original rather than rely on anyone else's interpretation - including mine!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 05:07 AM

Rag,
Once again I post naming one specific person to whom my post was addressed.
Once again a troll interjects.
I rest my case.

Once again, on an open forum anyone can reply.
If you want to restrict the conversation use PMs.
There is no trolling here.
I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 05:32 AM

DMcG
. In the context of around 14% devaluation.

The devaluation is old news and it is no longer causing inflation.

Guardian last month cherry picked,
"UK economy has been steadied by static inflation and rising exports as uncertainty of Brexit looms larger and larger"

"Households continue to feel the squeeze from inflation, prompted by the weak pound since the Brexit vote, but the rate at which prices rose in the UK stayed at 3% despite expectations of a further increase."

"Official figures appear to show England becoming a happier place in the year since the Brexit vote"
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/28/the-brexit-economy-is-the-worst-of-the-2017-slowdown-over

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 05:36 AM

The devaluation is much newer than the report which is dated December 2015.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 05:38 AM

Professor, no-one here has denied the link between immigration and suppression of wage rates. However, those of us with experience in the field, and the ability to actually think for ourselves rather than just googling other people's ideas to copy-and-paste, understand that it is not immigration per se that suppresses wage-rates, but the behaviour of unscrupulous employers who take advantage of immigrants.

Your solution to the problem of suppressed wage-rates, rather than acting against the offenders, i.e. unscrupulous employers, appears to be to restrict immigration. That is called 'victim-blaming', and is precisely the same despicable thing as telling the rape-victim that she 'asked for it' because she wore a short skirt.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 05:45 AM

DMcG, the 2015 report has not been superseded or invalidated.
BWM, can anyone prevent immigration making the poorly paid poorer, except by controlling immigration?
Or making housing more expensive for them, and more pressure on the services they rely on?

Until they can, the poor would like immigration controlled, and who are we to blame them?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 05:53 AM

Sigh. A mathematical model gets invalidated when its assumptions are no longer true. It does not involve some demigod declaring it invalid ex cathedra. No account was taken of the devaluation in the model. How, then, can you be certain it has not been invalidated? All you know is that it has not formally been withdrawn.

As usual, thwre comes a point wherw I think I have said enough on a subject and we have reached that on this report. There is no point discussing it unread.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 05:56 AM

From the Guardian article:

"In the week after Chancellor Philip Hammond’s budget outlined the biggest growth downgrade for the UK since the Conservatives came to power in 2010"

"Households continue to feel the squeeze from inflation, prompted by the weak pound since the Brexit vote"

"The OECD confirmed the downbeat long-term outlook on Tuesday as its latest assessment of the global economy put the UK at the bottom of the G7 growth table for next year - and only just keeping ahead of Japan as the worst performer in 2019"

“It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the Brexit process – which has added to investment uncertainty and squeezed consumers – is the main reason why the British economy is underperforming so badly at the moment,” he said"

"despite research showing that households are now each £600 a year worse off after the referendum"

"But there are worrying signals for the road ahead. Hammond revealed at the budget a painful downgrade in economic growth of around half a percentage point annually in the coming years"

“There is no reason at all, in my view, to believe any take-off in productivity will happen any time soon,” said Blanchflower, adding: “The economy could grow much more slowly than even the OBR’s horrid forecasts. I am still waiting for any good news from Brexit.”

Yeah, really cheery stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 08:12 AM

"Official figures appear to show England becoming a happier place in the year since the Brexit vote"

You wouldn't know it from our resident bellyachers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 08:40 AM

DMcG,
As usual, thwre comes a point where I think I have said enough on a subject and we have reached that on this report.
The only point I wanted to make was in my first post on all this.

"DMcG, we are lumbered with a low wage economy, but we have been for years.
You can not blame Brexit for every British shortcoming.
A major factor influencing low wages is uncontrolled immigration which Brexit is intended to address. "

Nothing you or BWM subsequently said detracts from my original point.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 08:51 AM

I cannot recall anyone detracting anything from any point unless we count the dismissal of all the other factors that have contributed to the wage crisis. DMcG, BWM and I have all commented that many factors, including the introduction of a pool of low cost labour, have played their part . No one has attempted to deny anything and there has only been one person who seems to have failed to understand the complexity of the issue by stating that they do not know anything about it apart from what the bank of England says in a single report.

I agree with DMcG and have already pointed out that an exchange of diverse economic views is a pointless exercise. There is little more, if anything, to be said on that topic.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 09:03 AM

Thanks Dave.
I have nothing more to say except to reiterate that a major factor influencing low wages is uncontrolled immigration which Brexit is intended to address.
That is all I ever wanted to say about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 09:10 AM

I do believe we are all agreed then. The pool of low cost labour contributed to the wage crisis.

Now maybe people who do actually understand economics can discuss how it was unscrupulous employers who used this pool of labour to drive down costs, how the redistribution of profits to the highest earners has reduced the pay pot, how the brexit vote has led to even the better employers being reluctant to invest in the UK and the myriad of other factors that have contributed to this looming disaster for our children.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 09:47 AM

There has never been uncontrolled immigration - it was never more than a racist invention - still being used by racists
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 10:29 AM

What control was there on immigration from EU Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 10:38 AM

"the brexit vote has led to even the better employers being reluctant to invest in the UK"
As stevie blunder would say: Can you offer any proof.
With a level playing field companies invest where they get the most bang for the buck. How many factories exploited government grants to set up and as soon as it became advantageous they scuttled away to SE Asia or Eastern Europe where greater profits could be generated. Kimberley Clark and Dyson to name but two.
    The starting statement creates a nice soundbite but is purely conjecture, to be pounced on by remoaners.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 10:42 AM

Dave,
how it was unscrupulous employers who used this pool of labour to drive down costs,

Does it make you unscrupulous to pay more than you need to?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 10:57 AM

There are plenty of employers who fully understand that the way to attract dedicated employees and generate economic growth is by paying more to their workforce. We can only hope that this trend will continue as the myth of trickle down growth is dispelled. But, as I said earlier, there is little point in trying to discuss this with anyone who admits that they know nothing about economics.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 11:14 AM

"Does it make you unscrupulous to pay more than you need to?"
Great argument for slavery Keith
Without control of wages from both sides, that's what working is
IMMIGRATION CONTROLS
Brexit stands to introduce 'EMIGRATION' controls so those needing to work elsewhere are no longer able to, all done to ascertain the inflow of all these 'Foreign Johnnies'
Time that you Little Englanders got your head around that one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 11:18 AM

Does it make you unscrupulous to pay more than you need to?

At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge," said the gentleman, taking up a pen, "it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and Destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."

"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.

"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

"And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"

"They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."

"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?" said Scrooge.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 11:34 AM

From your Guardian link:
"We lost control over our borders almost two decades ago. In 1998, Tony Blair removed exit checks. Nobody checks your passport once you have gone through security at an airport, as they do in virtually every other country in the world"
Arrant nonsense off the guardian.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-passport-exit-checks-everything-5476792
The link is several years old. Things have tightened up further since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 11:56 AM

"The link is several years old. Things have tightened up further since then."
My link is is dated 2017 - you's in 2two years earlier, pre the Brexit decision
what's on earth are you talking about?
As I said - the only thing that stands to be controlled is emigration for job-seekers needing work
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 12:27 PM

People who get quotes for a job seldom choose the most expensive.
Is that unscrupulous?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 01:02 PM

Your latest quote from the guardian says exit checks do not occur. The fact is that they do, have done for many years, and are becoming progressively tighter. Very difficult for me to state it more clearly.
Now what part of this can you not understand? Your staunch left wing rag is wrong(again)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 01:20 PM

"Your latest quote from the guardian says exit checks do not occur"
My point has been about entrance checks and controlling immigration, not emigration
1.2 million people born in the UK live in other EU countries, according to 2015 estimates
According to the same survey, 30,000 of them are drawing dole.
That will cease with Brexit
Brexit was sold on the basis of closing Britain's borders to immigrants, not the other way around
You really have lost the plot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 03:33 PM

"According to the same survey, 30,000 of them are drawing dole.
That will cease with Brexit"
As nothing has been agreed on brexit terms and conditions yet the above statement is merely a supposition. Unlike yourself I am fully aware of the difference between fact and supposition. As Britain did not join the schengen zone the right to check passports of all arrivals and departures was always retained. Free movement only ever occurred for EU nationals, but movement was always monitored. To an extent this duty of checking was thrown on the airlines as they picked up the repatriation tab for illegal aliens. Passenger manifests have been vetted and retained for many years. Even crossing the Irish Sea random checks occur and passports frequently checked.

In conclusion I would think it perfectly obvious that far more interest is taken on those aliens arriving than those leaving and all my most recent departures from heathrow I have been photographed as well as my passport checked. The latest intensification of passport controls took effect on the 7th October 2017

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 08:09 PM

From: DMcG
Date: 26 Dec 17 - 04:58 PM
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

So let's not worry too much about the actual figure, Nigel. To the best of your understanding are people on median salaries the same, better off or worse off since the EU vote?

Probably worse off. I know that I am.
But I cannot say that it is attributable to the Brexit vote.
Civil service pay rises have now been capped to 1% for several years, as shown in The Guardian. this pre-dates the Brexit vote. (by a considerable margin)

So my position is more due to the Conservative Party's 'austerity' measures. Which, in turn, are due to the profligate spending of the last Labour government.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 08:39 PM

And for how long are you going to keep blaming Labour for that, Nigel? Another year or two? Decade or two? Century or two? Your lot have been at the helm for seven years, have broken every promise about getting the deficit down, etc., and about ending austerity (do I remember hearing something about 2015...?) You know as well as I do that the downturn from 2008 was completely beyond the control of the government of the time and that exactly the same fate would have befallen whichever government was in power. So cut the crap, Nigel. The last seven years of Tory rule have pitched this country into its worst state since WW2 (alternatively, blame Sir Nick bloody Clegg). We have the worst economy of the G7 and just about the lowest growth in the EU, and let's not even start to talk about productivity. Your Tory government is the biggest shambles for many a long decade and, mark my words, history will see it as such. Gosh, if we hang about for long enough you'll be blaming original sin on Labour as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 03:51 AM


Probably worse off. I know that I am.
But I cannot say that it is attributable to the Brexit vote.

That's playing the same game as Keith, Nigel. No-one is claiming it is *entirely* due to the Brexit vote. We are claiming the Brexit vote *is a contributory factor*.

And while neither I or anyone else as far as I know has done the formal analysis, it is possible to isolate the effects of Brexit by comparisons with other economies, so implying we can never know is untrue. The informal comparison with other economies such as our position in the G7 league is a good indicator of what we might expect such a formal analysis to show.

A formal analysis would certainly take days or weeks of effort, so I am not about to do so, but it is the sort of thing you might hope DexEU would have done. It joins all the other things you would have expected them to do which they haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 04:53 AM

"Even crossing the Irish Sea random checks occur and passports frequently checked"

Really ! ? ! ?

1. As a frequent traveller to Ireland for more than 20 years I have seen two vehicles stopped and searched, they were both inward bound to the UK and searched in Holyhead by UK Border force.

2. UK Nationals do not need a passport to visit Ireland (I think the same is true of Irish Nationals visiting the UK).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 06:53 AM

"Even crossing the Irish Sea random checks occur and passports frequently checked."
Not ever in my well over half a centuries experience
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 06:54 AM

Apropos of nothing in particular, I was involved in installing the database of 'interesting' car registrations and people's photos at ferry ports in the UK back in the 1980s. It as the first UK government installation of photographic recognition. Binary field in an Informix database for any geeks who may be interested. It was installed because even during the troubles it was deemed too difficult to perform manual checks and with this system they could pull just those 'of interest'. Full of flaws of course but an interesting exercise that led the way for today's more sophisticated recognition systems.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 07:06 AM

From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 04:53 AM
"Even crossing the Irish Sea random checks occur and passports frequently checked"
Really ! ? ! ?
1. As a frequent traveller to Ireland for more than 20 years I have seen two vehicles stopped and searched, they were both inward bound to the UK and searched in Holyhead by UK Border force.
2. UK Nationals do not need a passport to visit Ireland (I think the same is true of Irish Nationals visiting the UK).

Just because you don't see the checks doesn't mean that they don't happen.
Q: When would be the best time to check vehicles for stowaways (using infra red) or for explosives/drugs (using sniffer dogs etc.)?
A: When the vehicles are unattended on the vehicle deck, and all (legitimate) travellers have been sent to the upper decks.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 09:01 AM

"Just because you don't see the checks doesn't mean that they don't happen."
I remember hitching to Bulgaria many years ago and being told by a nutty American student that the town we were stopping in was full of secret policeman
My companion said she hadn't seen any.
"Ah", said the Yank, "That's because they're all in plain clothes"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 09:11 AM

ANOTHER SUCCESS for BREXIT
"SHRED of COMFORT HERE MAYBE "
Should make the Damian Greens happy anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 11:44 AM

As a frequent traveller to ireland by sea and air, I know that checks can and do occur.For travel by air valid photo ID is required but if not a UK or Irish national only a passport will suffice.
If travelling by car your registration is known and logged before you board, and checks do occur. I have been checked both sides and asked for ID. In fact at Fishguard my passport was taken away briefly and on its return I was asked if I minded being contacted at a later date.
(They had obviously looked at some of the visas I had from "dodgy" places one of which frequently hit the headlines at that time.
Once again the rats fire from the hip with no real knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 12:00 PM

"As a frequent traveller to ireland by sea and air, I know that checks can and do occur.For travel by air valid photo"
As a half-Irish resident I know they don't
For most of my life I have travelled back and forth to Ireland and at not time have I been asked to produce my passport - not even at the height of The Troubles.
Ryanair do occasionally demand identification of some sort, but this is more for expediency of boarding rather than security
But they are a maverick bunch of savages anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 03:59 PM

Jim you are unfortunately full of shit. How unusual. Do you know what a passenger manifest is, and what it is used for?
"Irish Ferries recommend all passengers bring a passport with them. Irish and British citizens do not strictly require a passport to travel between the two countries - some form of identification is however required. Please note that all nationalities except Irish or British require passports."

"Ireland, along with the UK, is a member of the Common Travel Area. British nationals travelling from the UK don't need a passport to visit Ireland. However, Irish immigration officers will check the ID of all passengers arriving by air from the UK and may ask for proof of nationality, particularly if you were born outside the UK."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 08:43 PM

Iains, you have swapped from Airlines to Ferries in a very short space.

Ryan Air require a passport as ID, Aer Lingus, Flybe require a Photo ID.

Irish Ferries and Stena Line merely ask for the names of people travelling in the vehicle when you book the trip, that is PRIOR to your journey.

Never, when travelling by sea, have I been asked to verify the nationality of the people travelling in my vehicle, which has been up to 17 people on one occasion, and each year there have been at least 10 people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 04:05 AM

"Jim you are unfortunately full of shit"
And you are a breathtakingly arrogant lout, typical of your politics
I live here in Ireland and have spent over half a century living in Britain
I no longer travel regularly both ways but have done so for most of my life
You not only expose yourself as an ignorant moron, but you contradict your own claim
"Irish Ferries recommend"
It is not a requirement, it may be a recommendation
The last time I used my passport was to Travel to Italy ten years ago
The last time I was stopped and asked for documents or had my car searched was in the late 1970s, at the height of the troubles; even then I needed no passport.
From the EU guide to travellers in Europe
"If you are an EU national , you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one border-free Schengen EU country to another.
Even if you don't need a passport for border checks within the Schengen area , it is still always highly recommended to take a passport or ID card with you, so you can prove your identity if needed (if stopped by police, boarding a plane, etc.). Schengen EU countries have the possibility of adopting national rules obliging you to hold or carry papers and documents when you are present on their territory."
The "highly recommended" bit refers to the present unstable political situation and has nothing whatever to do with membership of the E.U.
Get a life, for Christ's sake, and this time, make sure it comes with some people-skills
People like you should have no existence outside the pages of 'Tom Brown's Schooldays' or 'Billy Bunter'
You are a caricature of your bullying breed - not even bright enough to invent your own insults but reliant on the creations of others.
Grow up, you nasty little right-wing yob
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 04:07 AM

Adonis on Brexit

Not that I anticipate that some here will admit to even a sliver of accuracy in it. That he has a very strong view which colours his way of looking at things does not mean it is all false and dismissable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 04:40 AM

Raggytash.I have used both modes of transport frequently. From my own experience by air from Heathrow,I am fairly sure you do not get airside without going through both security and passport control. On arrival in Ireland my passport has been checked slightly more than it has not been, and when checked in recent years it has often been scanned. As I always carry a passport I have no knowledge of using alternative photo ID.
When travelling by ferry, as you state, you prebook. All names are known and manifested.In in most cases also generating a unique electronic signature, both from vehicle registration and bank card details. Checking can occur in great detail purely from the manifest, if required. Random checks can and do occur both on departure and arrival.
I have experienced them-despite jimmies disbelief, and if your given name is Ahmed or Muhammed, it is likely they will be flagged. For frequent travellers the ferry companies are well aware of your frequency of travel, likewise the security services if you attract their interest. Joe blogs a frequent traveller is of no interest whereas the first time foot passenger Mustapha, who has a huge rucksack, will likely be asked to step aside for a little chat.(very racist profiling, but that is the world we live in)
      I have no problem with checks, they make the world a safer place. In like fashion I have no issue with my bank cards being frozen if I use them thousands of miles from home without informing the bank first.A little inconvenience is a small price to pay.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 04:55 AM

A manifest taken beforehand can only check who a person claims to be, not who they are. And there is interesting research which found experienced passpprt officiers accepting 14% of false passport photographs.

Like so.many other topics, this is more complex than we outsiders appreciate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 05:03 AM

You have the official vesrion Iains and you chose to ignore it
Case closed, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 07:34 AM

Even allowing for Anthony Adonis' opposition to Brexit the article linked to is a pretty damning indictment of the Government.



Adonis Interview

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 07:41 AM

Anthony !?! Don't know where I got that from. I did of course mean Andrew Adonis.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 08:01 AM

Another interesting article this time from William Keegan.

Brave New World

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 09:52 AM

I loved this quote from the Keegan article, linked above.

Chris Giles, the economics editor of the Financial Times, has analysed the results of a series of independent studies. One of the main findings is that the referendum result has already cost the UK close to 1% of GDP, with consumer spending hit by the devaluation of the pound, and business investment by the lack of confidence caused by the prospect of Brexit and the government’s chaotic handling of the affair.

Curiously enough, the estimated hit to the economy already amounts to £350m a week, remarkably similar to the figure of so-called benefits to the NHS that were promised on the sides of the notorious Brexit bus.

Would those who seem to rely on single articles to support their case please note that the quote says specifically a number of studies had been analysed and a number of contributory factors are quoted. This is what is called unbiased.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 10:35 AM

"Like so.many other topics, this is more complex than we outsiders appreciate."
Very true. But some will still wish to argue! And sadly some will only believe what they want to believe. With the increased terrorist activity of recent years I would be surprised if we knew a fraction of what checks really occur. It certainly can go far beyond a uniform in a booth scanning passports, no matter what our resident self proclaimed experts may say.
   After all a half century of experience can mean repeating one year of experience 50 times.

"You have the official vesrion Iains and you chose to ignore it"
Twerp!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 11:05 AM

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 05:03 AM
You have the official vesrion Iains and you chose to ignore it
Case closed, I think

I take it that you're referring to your quote in your previous post:

From the EU guide to travellers in Europe
"If you are an EU national , you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one border-free Schengen EU country to another.
Even if you don't need a passport for border checks within the Schengen area , it is still always highly recommended to take a passport or ID card with you, so you can prove your identity if needed (if stopped by police, boarding a plane, etc.). Schengen EU countries have the possibility of adopting national rules obliging you to hold or carry papers and documents when you are present on their territory."

The section in bold means that your quote has nothing to do with the discussion. Neither UK nor Ireland are part of the Schengen area.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 11:47 AM

"Neither UK nor Ireland are part of the Schengen area"
This discussion is about Brexit and what yoiu highlight is what Britain and Northern Ireland stand to lose
At present, there is no legal requirement to produce a passport when travelling between the two - or into the Republic, contrary to Iain's claim
jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 12:02 PM

Jim,
You were using the quote to back up your claim that passports are not currently required between UK & Ireland (North or South)and quoting a reference to the Schengen rules does nothing to support your case.
The current freedom to move between these areas is because there is a "Common travel area" covering UK, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Isle of man and the Channel Islands. This 'common travel area' is nothing to do with the EU.
UK & Ireland (both parts) are outside the Schengen area. The Channel Islands are even outside the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 12:48 PM

My apologies Nigel - that discussion had become mixture of what Britain is likely to lose with Brexit in terms of free movement and Iain's claim that you needed a passport to travel between England and Ireland
As Iaian refused to take my word that I don't require a passport to travel between the two, I grabbed what I believed to be an official statement on the policy
My mistake.
Thank you for your clarification
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 02:08 PM

jimmie i refer you to my posts:
From: Iains - PM
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 11:44 AM
and:
From: Iains - PM
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 03:59 PM
Read assimilate digest you obnoxious little shit!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 02:14 PM

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_i

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 02:20 PM

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

The link above did not work. The above is the web address to give details of what is required for Irish and UK nationals to travel between the two areas

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 02:53 PM

"Read assimilate digest you obnoxious little shit"
Well bred as ever I see - breeding will show
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 02:56 PM

Your last link gave mean application form and nothing else
Don'r bother to try again - I'll rely on my own experiance if it's ok with you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:01 AM

Jim, here is a survey that challenges your view of Brexit supporters.

"There is little connection between racism and calls for greater immigration control, according to a think tank. Despite claims that last year’s EU referendum was driven by xenophobic attitudes towards immigration, British people are actually ‘nuanced and sophisticated’ on the subject, Open Europe’s study found.
Aarti Shankar, a policy analyst for Open Europe, said: ‘We found that Brexit is too often wrongly seen as a mandate to pull up the drawbridge. ‘In fact most people have a relatively nuanced view and can articulate both the advantages and disadvantages immigration brings. ‘We found little evidence that the desire to control migration was driven by racism or xenophobia.’ "
http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/21/people-didnt-vote-brexit-racist-study-finds-7176198/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:13 AM

Sorry Keith
You feature prominently in my New Years Rsolution list and I hope those of others
We've closed fucked up too many threads
Go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:19 AM

For balance.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:22 AM

I'll try that again

For balance.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:06 AM

Maybe it is a matter of timing but the metro article (21/12) appears to reference an report that is not on the Open Britain list of reports and publications at the time of this post (list here)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:09 AM

Sorry, my mistake. Open Britain/Open Europe confusion!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 08:19 AM

From the Open Europe "survey":

Ms Shankar added: ‘There is overwhelming support for migrants coming to the UK in areas where we have skills shortages and to do socially-useful roles, for example as doctors, nurses or teachers.'

At the same time, the public believe that migrants’ access to welfare and public services should be restricted.

Ah, the good old class divide feeds into to racism, as ever. To reinterpret the rather benign-sounding take quoted above:

"Skilled workers (of the kind we fail to train ourselves) can come here because they are useful for filling our gaps (and, by the way, to hell with their native countries who will just have to do without them). At the same time, though, they mustn't expect to be able to have the same access to our schools, doctors and hospitals that we native Brits get, however useful these people are, and we definitely don't want these foreigners to have access to welfare."

This is the aspiration towards exploiting foreigners, especially the "useful" ones, which has tainted the history of this country for hundreds of years. We will have them under sufferance but they mustn't expect equality while they're here. And the referendum leave campaign relentlessly emphasised the "lack of control of our borders" and the need for some kind of points system (a nice way of saying that we won't take foreign riffraff). It's completely disingenuous to suggest that that didn't exploit the most base racist instincts of many people. In fact, given the closeness of the vote, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that it might just have swung the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:24 PM

Amazingly I have some good news with regard to Brexit.

Irish Ferries have commissioned a new ship on the Holyhead to Dublin route. They would not have done so if they lacked confidence in future trade between Ireland and the UK.

New ships

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 08:06 PM

There's so much anti-brexit murmuring at the moment that I reckon it wouldn't take much adverse news to trigger a real groundswell against it. All sane people now realise that brexit is thoroughly against the interests of this country. We have to make sure that we force our politicians to act in a way that reflects that and not in a short-termist way that reflects the interests of their party. As a Labour Party member who joined when Corbyn was elected leader, I'm very disturbed by the continuing pro-brexit stance of the party. It had better be a political tactic. If not, I'll leave, as will tens of thousands of others. I'm doing me damnedest to make Jezza listen. We desperately need an opposition to brexit in this country, and, much as I love Vince Cable, it can only come from Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:13 AM

For jimmie from the Irish Government website.
"Rules

The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. You do not need to have a passport in order to enter the other country. However, all air and sea carriers require some form of identification and some regard a passport as the only valid identification. Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid official photo-identification which shows your nationality.

As you are being asked to prove that you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your passport.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:48 AM

So it's sensible to carry your passport. Doing so may help you to avoid difficulties and get past bureaucracy. When I'm overseas I carry my passport, or a photocopy of the crucial page from it at least, everywhere I go, though technically I don't have to. The only other photo ID in the whole world that I possess is my bus pass, which no-one recognises as valid ID. I still have my tatty old paper driving licence, sans photo, issued to me last in 1976 if I remember correctly (I really must look for it some time). It bears a huge tea stain and a handwritten record of my 1990 speeding rap (bastard Wiltshire cops). But passports for UK and Irish citizens travelling between the two countries are never a legal requirement. If you don't want a fight at the Ryanair departure gate it makes a lot of sense to have it handy. I prefer to sail through such obstacles rather than make principled stands. There you are, the alpha and omega of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:06 AM

Two things Steve, firstly I suspect you may be driving illegally if you haven't obtained a photo ID Drivers Licence, I'd check that up if I were you.

Secondly Ryanair will not book you a flight unless you have a valid passport. Other operators will accept other photo ID but not Ryanair.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:13 AM

Just had a quick look Steve and it seems the old paper licences are still valid. I had to apply for a new photo ID licence just yesterday as apparently the photo I had taken years ago does not reflect the person I am today ............ cost me £21 for the bloody privilege!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:17 AM

My licence is still valid, expiring in 2021. I've checked. As for passports, I'd suggest just having the bloody thing with you when crossing borders. The last thing I want when I'm lugging my stuff through interminable airport queues is extra bureaucratic hassle. I'll gladly give up most of my human rights for half an hour just to get my arse on that plane seat.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:22 AM

I just took the plunge and asked about getting a Polish passport. If the cost is not prohibitive I may well go for it!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:22 AM

...If I did I wonder if I could use my original name, Polakow?

D,

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:23 AM

"advisable" being the operative word, which is what I said in the first place
I have a driving licence with my photograph on which serves just as well
These are security measures - nothing to do with Brexit
Things are quite likely to change regarding travel to Europe when Britian leaves - a loss that will effect British Trade - as pointed oout by the economic section
"For jimmie"
Mental midgets attempting to talk down to people from the hole they have dug for themselves are a constant source of entertainment - your only positive contribution to this forum
Jim Caaarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 09:02 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 08:06 PM
. . . All sane people now realise that brexit is thoroughly against the interests of this country.

Well, it's movement anyway, whether or not in the right direction.

Steve has gone from classifying the majority of those who took part in the referendum as either misguided or racist, to classifying them/us as 'insane'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 09:06 AM

No, I'm calling you sane, Nigel. It's just that you know that brexit is not in the interests of this country but you have yet to shed the hubris and admit it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 01:24 PM

"At present, there is no legal requirement to produce a passport when travelling between the two - or into the Republic, contrary to Iain's claim"

Hey jimmie. did they ever teach you to read at school? Valid ID is required, as I stated.
If you took your head out of your arse you would not have shit for brains!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 01:34 PM

Iains I have NEVER been asked for ID either outbound or inbound. This is despite taking hundreds of journeys in either direction.

It may be if I was asked I may have a problem but I think it would be a minor one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 01:44 PM

"Hey jimmie. did they ever teach you to read at school?"
Obviously more so than they they taught youu good manners you loutish thug
Wouldn'tt you be more at home on the terraces or out 'Paki-bashing' or givven your choice of chosen sources, maybe synagogue burning
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 02:47 PM

HI

My wife has just this week had to renew her Driving Licence.........Guess what?? She had to quote her Current Passport number before they will authorise the Driving Licence. !!!

The say it is for security reasons.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 03:03 PM

"This is despite taking hundreds of journeys in either direction."
I assume poetic license!
Assume 200 minimum and the 20 years you have stated. A round trip every 6 weeks for 20 years? You been retired all your life?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:22 PM

Ignore Iains, chaps. Let him self-immolate. His days may well be numbered so leave him alone. Make it easy for the mods.

Maybe your missus is up to no good, Mike. I've heard that the powers-wot-be are tekkin' agin spouses of Man U supporters, and quite right too!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:12 PM

Hmm I thought 200 was hundreds .......... could be wrong though.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 08:57 AM

hi Steve

"< Maybe your missus is up to no good, Mike. I've heard that the powers-wot-be are tekkin' agin spouses of Man U supporters, and quite right too! >"

Not totally sure what you mean. Then you're more educedificated than wot I am.

There have been some great matches over the holiday. Liverpool are beginning to worry me !!!

Have a great New Year.

Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 06:13 PM

"Hmm I thought 200 was hundreds .......... could be wrong though."
A blond moment perhaps?

The minimum value of hundreds would be 2 in order to give a plurality.

For those not thoroughly bored by the recent discussion, to have a requirement to carry ID does not automatically mean it will be asked for. The vetting is far more stringent for travelling by air than by ferry. Also car drivers can be identified by their registration.
If I can google any UK car registration and determine if it is taxed tested and insured, I am sure security forces can go much much further in among all those computerised data banks where our electronic alter ego/doppleganger exists, and the average person would be astonished to find out just how comprehensive these records are. Linking NI number to passport, to driving license, to bank details, to vehicle details, enables electronic tracking on a scale never dreamed of. Couple this with phone and internet surveillance, vehicle tracking, even to monitoring oyster card individual movements in London. Additionally, DNA and fingerprints are routinely hoovered up, despite breaching article 8 of the right to respect for private and family life.
Big Brother has arrived with a vengeance and is being kitted out with all the latest bells and whistles. With a few keystrokes, those that wish to, could generate a more accurate profile of you than you could generate yourself.
Perhaps the argument should move on to how we allowed the state to be privy to all our secrets, and what dangers it presents to a democracy? Cant vouch for the accuracy of the links but they give an idea of the road we are on.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/03/home_office_mega_database/


http://mashable.com/2017/02/19/snoopers-charter/#fY.3THEqomqM
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150312/09283830302/report-says-uk-citizens-ens-must-give-up-right-to-privacy-because-terrorism-reveals-huge-secret-government-databases.shtml
http://www.genewatch.org/sub-569340

https://news.vice.com/article/exclusive-uk-government-and-police-are-getting-information-from-shadowy-terrorism-database

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 06:34 PM

Liverpool worry me every time I watch 'em, Mike, but, in terms of edge-of-seat excitement and brilliantly-fast footie, what's not to like! Felt a bit sorry for Burnley as they were my boyhood club, in their golden days of Jimmy Mac, the greatest inside forward of all time (ish!), and it's great to see a club who haven't got multibillions at their disposal doing so well.

You see, chaps, as a rampant leftie I can argue footie in benificent mode even with a crusty old Tory such as Mike! That's the way to do it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 05:30 AM

UK car sales slump

Just one of the consequences. Many factors, all pointing to the uncertainty of the Brexit negotiations.

Unintended? Nah, unconsidered. Who cares? I will buy a s/h car this year and it may hap that prices are in my favour. Ya gotta take the positives, even in adversity.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 06:15 AM

Mr Red.
You need to look at more than just the headlines. The 'slump' in sales is only by comparison with the two previous years 2015 & 2016, which were record years for new car sales in this century.
Sales in 2017 were lower than in 2015 & 2016, but on a par with 2002, 2003 & 2004. They were higher than any other year this century.
Hardly a slump, just 2015 & 2016 were 'bucking the trend'.

Radio 2 news this morning (not usually a supporter of Brexit) made it clear that the 'fall' in sales was noticeably greater for Diesel cars, thus suggesting that uncertainty over these may be an important factor in the reduction.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 06:30 AM

the 'fall' in sales was noticeably greater for Diesel cars, thus suggesting that uncertainty over these may be an important factor in the reduction.

That would only be true if the fall in diesel sales was offset by an equal or greater rise in other types. The fall in sales is in total indicating that people are just not spending on new cars in general. The timing you mention fits in to the timing of the referendum and it's result giving further indication, if any was required, that people are uncertain of the future.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 06:43 AM

The timing you mention fits in to the timing of the referendum and it's result giving further indication, if any was required, that people are uncertain of the future.
So why were sales so low from 2005 to 2014? maybe that was because we were inextricably linked to the EU, and sales shot up for a while when people saw the possibility of an escape?
I'm not claiming that as a link, just showing that extreme generalisations can be made, on very little evidence, by either side in the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 06:45 AM

"Liverpool worry me every time I watch 'em, "
Me too
Have you ever seen that crappy and grubby plastic Yellow Submarine on the forecourt of John Lennon Airport (John Lennon Airport - for crying out loud!!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM

Well let me make a generalisation that the pound has plunged, making those desirable EU-made cars more expensive, giving people a harder choice between more expensive cars versus more expensive foreign holidays, causing inflation that pay isn't keeping up with putting pressure on domestic finances, increasing uncertainty over the country's future in the teeth of the shenanigans of a ramshackle and incompetent government, a massive and increasingly unsustainable increase in personal debt levels...

Tell me which of those factors are going to encourage people to buy new cars. Or just keep putting a brave face on things. Your choice, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:38 AM

"Also car drivers can be identified by their registration"

No they cannot.

I drive a car but I do not own a car. In fact I drive three vehicles none of which is registered in my name.

Add to this a car could have false plates, could be stolen ........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:39 AM

So why were sales so low from 2005 to 2014? maybe that was because we were inextricably linked to the EU, and sales shot up for a while when people saw the possibility of an escape?

1. No idea but when people are unsure about their finances, car sales slump.

2. Maybe sales shot up when people saw that confirmation of our membership was possible and slumped when they saw the actual results.

Playing with these figures is of no benefit as they can be shown to support different theories. What we do know is that people are now unsure of their futures and not spending as much as a result.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:42 AM

There is also a chart in Mr Red's link (at 11:32) showing that a 5.7% decline in 2017 was due to diesel vehicles.
Diesel car sales declined by 17.1%
Petrol car sales increased by 2.7%
Alternate fuel (& hybrid) car sales increased by 34.8%

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:47 AM

You can (mis)use the statistics as much as you like. Overall, car sales were down by 5.7%. A significant portion of that will be because people are unsure of their future due to brexit.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:53 AM

Listen to the first bit of today's You And Yours on Radio 4, Nigel, and see if you're still wearing that brave face of yours afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:59 AM

And as you like to (nit)pick me up on my English, Nigel, perhaps you'd care to review your use of "alternate." Tsk. And let's bear in mind that a 34.8% increase in sales of hybrids, etc., is 34.8% of a very small number when set beside the numbers of petrol and diesel cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 08:01 AM

What we do know is that people are now unsure of their futures and not spending as much as a result.
That is just your inference from the figures, and deals with comparing just three years.
Even when there were unexpected increased sales in 2016 & 2017, no one would possibly have been justified in expecting the increase to continue indefinitely. Sales have fallen back to (above)their 2015 level. So what?
Without those two years we would be looking at the highest car sales figures for over a decade.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 08:16 AM

You And Yours. iPlayer, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 08:44 AM

And let's bear in mind that a 34.8% increase in sales of hybrids, etc., is 34.8% of a very small number when set beside the numbers of petrol and diesel cars.
Yes, but sales of petrol vehicles also went up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:06 AM

That is just your inference from the figures

No it isn't. I have said specifically that the figures are meaningless in themselves as they can be interpreted in any number of ways. I said "What we do know is that people are now unsure of their futures and not spending as much as a result" based on countless studies which all confirm that people are unsure of their futures because they have no idea what will happen after brexit.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 10:22 AM

An interesting perspective on Brexit on todays BBC.

The Brexit Generation

Perhaps younger voters will get another chance somewhere down the line.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 11:59 AM

"Also car drivers can be identified by their registration"

No they cannot." I would not wish to be too categorical on that point.

I refer you to my earlier post:
From: Iains - PM
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 06:13 PM

Perhaps you think the security services as as daft as you are? Should you be a person of interest rest assured you will not proceed unless they are satisfied that they know who you are. Being complacent on account of not having been stopped before does not change the requirement to have adequate ID
If you take a car not belonging to you on a ferry a sensible precaution would be to have a letter of authorization, should you be stopped. This could also extend to company cars. It would rather depend upon what reasons triggered your being of interest. For certain european countries the registration document is required to be in the vehicle at all times, as is the requirement to carry your driving license in Ireland.(road traffic act 1994 section 40.1 a)

You can be as cute as you like with me. I do not recommend the same line of backchat with the authorities on the day you become one of those "selected" for a little chat. Uniforms do not warm to "clever" people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Jan 18 - 12:04 PM

I heard on a satirical radio prog today that there was a proposal of using volunteer customs officers. Maybe it was some ministerial MP thinking aloud. And these volunteers would be sort of spies rather than vigilantes.

But ya gotta larf ain't ya?

Diesel cars, thus suggesting that uncertainty over these

H'mm. If you are going to buy a car and not a diesel - then ............ you work it out. Red Herring see "many factors"

This issue won't be the last. Change costs money. This is just an example that wasn't discussed or foreseen. House prices are always up and down (and there is talk of notso up) but food prices will be (are) on the rise. Ya can't rent food! It would serve us better to discuss "how many hours of hard work" an item costs. But that would involve mental thought. Reactionaries of this parish don't spend on that luxury.

I often refer to the cost of this or that (in this parish) as X number of cups of coffee. Because prices/taxes vary UK/US (etc) and while coffee is somewhat variable, it is universal.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 02:37 AM

Another ill-considered trifle

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 02:40 AM

I shouldn't force people to follow links like that. The heading of the article is:

"UK companies will face huge new VAT burden after Brexit

Controversial changes in bill would force importers to pay duty upfront on EU goods"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 05:35 AM

food prices will be (are) on the rise.

We can now only buy expensive EU food or cheaper non-EU food bearing stiff tariffs.

Brexit will give us cheaper food.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 05:47 AM

Imported Foods June 2016


Imported Foods

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 05:51 AM

Just to lighten the gloom,
Daily Telegraph 2 days ago,

Productivity climbed by 0.9pc in the three months to September as British workers produced more output in each hour worked than ever before.
Manufacturers and services firms reported growth of 1pc in the quarter while the public sector also managed a respectable 0.7pc, the Office for National Statistics said.
The jump in productivity was the fastest for any quarter since 2011.
Productivity rose as the economy accelerated but growth in employment stalled, meaning that a steady number of workers produced extra GDP.
Business investment also increased over the same period, which should help productivity to grow.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/01/05/uk-productivity-jumps-fastest-pace-since-2011/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:00 AM

Productivity climbed. Prices rose. Yet pay remained the same. Sad times for all but the favoured few.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:01 AM

Just one or two lines from that link:

"If productivity growth had followed its pre-financial crisis trend, then output per hour worked would be around 20pc higher today."

"“The rebound in productivity in the third quarter is highly welcome, but it needs to be seen in the context of a particularly poor first-half performance. There needs to be sustained improvement to ease concerns over the UK’s overall poor productivity record,”

"while a lack of new investment is also a problem."

"Productivity fell in industries including mining and quarrying, water supply, and recreation and culture in the third quarter."

"“While this increase in productivity is a welcome and positive start to 2018, 0.9pc is still a small step at a time when giant leaps are needed”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:03 AM

Rag, who or what is "Quartz Media" and why should anyone pay them any attention?

Telegraph 16 days ago,
Britain?s economy grew by 0.4pc in the third quarter and by 1.7pc on the year, an unexpectedly strong result which indicates the UK is proving more resilient than feared.
Sustained household spending growth helped drive the increase, as well as expansions in the accounting, recruitment and retailing sectors which were strong performers in the dominant services industry.
Manufacturers were also boosted by rising exports and sales of new car models, the Office for National Statistics said.

Economist Alan Clarke at Scotiabank said this bodes well for 2017?s overall GDP growth, defying expectations of a serious slowdown.
He had previously forecast growth of between 1.5pc and 1.6pc, but has now upgraded his forecast to 1.8pc.
?It is really quite a pleasant end to the year. The IMF got loads of headlines for downgrading their forecasts, but really they are the Johnny-come-latelies, they should have waited for this data. It is looking better than we all thought,? he said.
?If anyone had said in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote that the economy would only slow from 1.9pc in 2016 to 1.8pc now, we?d have been very happy with that.?
Growth will stay at similar levels next year, he believes, as the squeeze on incomes from inflation gradually fades.
www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/12/22/gdp-grew-04pc-final-reading-third-quarter-says-ons/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:07 AM

I would trust QM over and above the Torygraph any day but no picture is ever complete without looking at all the different views.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:08 AM

Rag,
Just one or two lines from that link:

Which of them do you suggest might be related to Brexit, and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:11 AM

"Scotiabank's ......... The company ranked at number 41 on the SNL Financial World's 100 biggest banks listing, September 2013 and is led by President and CEO Brian J. Porter"

Ooh premier league bank !!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:17 AM

Quartz Media.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_(publication)


Here you go boys and girls a link to the Wiki page for Quartz Media. You will see no doubt that some of it's founders were from the Wall Street Journal, the Economist, the New York Times and Bloomberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:18 AM

I would trust QM over and above the Torygraph

Everything in that Quartz piece is refuted by my statement, "We can now only buy expensive EU food or cheaper non-EU food bearing stiff tariffs.

Brexit will give us cheaper food. "

If there is any fallacy in that staement, pleaseidentify it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:29 AM

Prove that brexit won't give us worse food. Prove that brexit won't mean lower-welfare food. Prove that we can suddenly stop buying stuff from Europe because there are massive surpluses everywhere else ready to be sold to us on the cheap. Well I suppose I can always wash down my GM-stuffed chlorine chicken with Nigerian Prosecco... I suppose you have a goodly supply of cloud cuckoos down there in your Hertford freezers.

The Telegraph piece is so full of caveats that I don't know what your point is in directing us to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:37 AM

Brexit will give us cheaper food.

In your dreams PAL! With the world population rising inexorably, and the sources of cheap food becoming more affluent because they are supplying cheap food, currently, and thus better able to feed themselves and will ........... you work it out in your more lucid waking moments.

And then there is the BRICS becoming more affluent. (aka food waste).

And Brexit is bringing us food price rises in the short term. And in 40 years we have gone from spending 18% of income on food to 11% currently. Funded by under-nourished Africa.

And I didn't mention global warming moving the deserts further to the poles, and crop yields diminishing with rising temperatures, and the insect world changing their habits and, and ..........

Of course science will come to the rescue, it always will. But it may just be more vegetarian. AND vitamin B12 pills or in the food by legislation. Remember calcium, aka chalk, in bread? Thought not! I don't remember that WW2 UK law being repealed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:40 AM

Steve,
Prove that brexit won't give us worse food.

Prove that it will.
We only get a quarter of our food from the EU and the rest has steep tariffs imposed because of EU.

On Brexit we can choose what tarifs to apply to protect our own producers.

Also the EU will not want food tarifs with us because of the damage it would to to their food and drink industry.

Rag,
"Scotiabank's ......... The company ranked at number 41 on the SNL Financial World's 100 biggest banks listing

A major world player then, and the economist was using the figures supplied by ONS. Heard of them Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:45 AM

In your dreams PAL! With the world population rising inexorably, and the sources of cheap food becoming more affluent because they are supplying cheap food, currently, and thus better able to feed themselves and will ........... you work it out in your more lucid waking moments.

What has that to do with Brexit?
Because of EU we have to charge steep tariffs on food imports not from EU, which is most of it.
That will make 75% of our food imports cheaper, and EU will still need us to buy their food, wine and beer or they will be in trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:52 AM

"Because of EU we have to charge steep tariffs on food imports not from EU, which is most of it"

https://qz.com/716156/the-british-import-a-quarter-of-their-food-from-the-eu-and-thats-a-problem/


The Quartz article clearly shows that just 19% of food is not either home produced (54%) or sourced from the EU (27%)

Could someone erudite explain to me when 19% became "most of it"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 08:50 AM

Hi Steve

"< I can argue footie in benificent mode even with a crusty old Tory such as Mike! That's the way to do it!

Hey less of the crusty !!!!

Watch Pool beat Everton....looks like VanDyj is going to be a great buy.

Regards Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 08:52 AM

The IFS states that 70% of our gross food imports come from the EU. After brexit we will have to impose tariffs on those imports if we want to strike favourable deals with non-EU countries The imports already cost more because of the way the pound has soared downward, Keith. A double whammy. Still, I admire your brave face. You're not only one putting one on here in the last few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 08:56 AM

Ah yes, Mike! That goal guarantees that he'll be the new darling of the Kop. Bit of a soft penalty... but I was gobsmacked when Holgate wasn't sent off. I thought that Bobby Firmino reacted like a normal human being in the face of that extreme provocation. Wonder what he said, though. Apparently, neither the ref nor Holgate speak Portuguese, so will we ever know?!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 12:14 PM

Steve,
After brexit we will have to impose tariffs on those imports if we want to strike favourable deals with non-EU countries

That is bollocks Steve.
Where did you get such a ludicrous notion?
WE would choose which products required tariffs, and WTO says you can not discriminate between countries except by having free trade deals.
We only need apply them to protect UK producers.

EU would be self harming if they goad us into imposing tarifs against their exports. Their exports will already be less attractive to us without the tarifs against non-EU foods.

The imports already cost more because of the way the pound has soared downward,

That factor has caused a little inflation but has now moved through the system. It is no longer causing inflation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 12:45 PM

Hoops, lads. No need to jump.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 02:07 PM

Another cabinet reshuffle due to be announced tomorrow
I think Maay Blossom and Donald the Div must have a bet on as to how many they can sack in the shortest time
Next step - trying to suppress memoirs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 02:07 PM

Another cabinet reshuffle due to be announced tomorrow
I think Maay Blossom and Donald the Div must have a bet on as to how many they can sack in the shortest time
Next step - trying to suppress memoirs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 04:42 AM

Hoops, lads. No need to jump.

They can't Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM

There is very little point is discussing food prices in or out of the UK without having some knowledge of the CAP and how much it contributes to farmers incomes (   
farmers welfare! )   
Direct payments benefit nearly 7 million farms throughout the. European Union and often represent an important share of their agricultural income (on average, nearly half of farmers' income in the last ten years came from this ..
The lion's share (72%) of the current EU farm budget is dedicated to direct payments for European farmers. ... On average direct payments amount to ?267 per eligible hectare.

The CAP benefits large landowners just for owning more land. EU protectionism on agriculture has been criticised for the costs it imposes on consumers through higher food prices and the costs it imposes on developing countries by making it difficult for them to compete with EU farmers.

The current Government says it will continue to make payments to UK farmers on the same basis as now until 2020. Negotiations are already underway within the EU on how to reform the next round of CAP, so the CAP will change in any case (and may need substantial reform given the budget shortfall post-Brexit). 14.1% less rebate. Should subsidies shrink post 2020 prices will inevitably rise to accommodate at least a component of the resulting shortfall in income.
Happy Days ahead!

Essentially very few farms in the EU are viable without CAP support.
This has to reform for 2020 to implement the next round.
Until this next round is thrashed out the outcome and it's impact on food prices in or out of the EU is totally unknown territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 02:42 PM

Hi Steve

I agree...I don't know what on earth came over Holgate and he should have gone, I thought the Ref should have sent him off immediately which would have saved all the unpleasant scenes . ... and the manhandling of the ref and other Liverpool players. I thought they were to be praised for not allowing this to develop further.

Hark at me praising Liverpool - mind you The Mcallan is good stuff.

Regards Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 07:19 PM

From Polly Toynbee in today's Guardian:

"Look at the economy. Brexiters can’t hide our steep fall from the top of the G7 growth league before the referendum, to bottom of it now, as the eurozone and global economy lift off without us. Sterling plunged and car sales fell while shares boomed irrationally sky high. True, no Brexit Armageddon arrived – but nor has Brexit, yet."

Couldn't have put it better myself!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 07:34 PM

Mike, my greatest love twenty years ago, in those simpler times, was The Macallan ten-year-old. But then they started mucking around with names and I completely lost track of what was what Macallan-wise. A more recent thing has happened with my two favourites, Laphroaig and Talisker. The plain old Laphroaig ten-year-old is a thing of beauty, as ever, and so is the Quarter Cask. But what the blazes is that "Select?"   Muck! Talisker ordinary 10-year-old is a class act, but Talisker Storm and Talisker Skye are kiddies' whisky!

I blame brexit, global warming and Trump. And Mourinho. And Mansour. And Thatcher. And Chamberlain. And Sir Ian McGregor. And why should Disraeli get away unscathed...

Ahah, I see Yeovil have got Man U next round! Liverpool seem to have it easy but that's exactly the sort of match they can screw up...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 05:25 AM

Thanks for reminding us of the well known convictions of Polly Toynbee.
Here is what Guardian's actual economists said just 7 days ago.

"UK, US and eurozone manufacturing expands strongly at year-end – as it happened
Eurozone manufacturing PMI hit record high in December and US posts strongest factory growth since 2015, while UK factory growth was ‘solid’"

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2018/jan/02/stock-markets-set-to-extend-2017s-winning-streak-business-live

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 05:40 AM

What was written in the text:

"Manufacturing surveys for the UK, US and eurozone have been strong, with the eurozone putting in a record performance in December while the US showed the highest factory growth since 2015. Activity at Britain’s factories slowed but was described as “solid”.

So the Eurozone put in a RECORD performance, the US showed the HIGHEST factory growth but the UK SLOWED .............

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 05:57 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 08:52 AM
The IFS states that 70% of our gross food imports come from the EU.

I would love to see these sort of comments (by the IFS, not getting at Steve) accompanied by definitions of their terms.

Does the above statement mean that 70% of the food we use originates in other EU states?
Or, perhaps, does it mean that we buy it from other member states, who, in turn, import it from outside the EU (in which case the price already includes EU tariffs)

A little more clarity could make a big difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 06:02 AM

Polly Toynbee's "convictions" have shifted radically over the years. All credit to her for that. Yours have never budged a single thou. Positively set in stone and with a thinking department to match. Just try addressing what she wrote without your predigested notions in place and with your ideological Tory hat off.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 06:15 AM

IFS website, 27 July 2017:

"Around 30% of food purchased by households in the UK is imported. The major source of total food imports is the EU (which accounts for 70% of gross food imports). This means changes in the costs of imports – for example, through changes to tariffs or movements in exchange rates – are likely to have a big impact on the price consumers pay for food." Plenty more pessimism where that came from too.

70% of our gross food imports come from the EU. NOT 70% of our food, of course. We do manage to produce some ourselves. It'll be interesting to see how much less we'll produce when we leave the EU, what with thousands of farms already on the brink and those subsidies drying up. Which they will, just like that £350 million a week for the NHS has already dried up. Maybe Theresa May will just plant a few more bogus forests or pay farmers a pittance to turn their land into crazy golf courses or hang bird feeders in the bushes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 07:25 AM

Oh dear, it seems David Davis is getting upset because the EU is making plans for a no-deal situation. What does he expect them to do when the Prime Minister has already stated that "no deal is btter than a bad deal"

David Davis

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 07:33 AM

"what with thousands of farms already on the brink and those subsidies drying up."

This statement is true throughout the EU. As I said before the CAP has to have a revised system in place by 2020. This will have ramifications IN AND OUT OF THE EU. Instead of giving our CAP donation to the EU it could go straight to farmers. I refer you to my post below.
From: Iains - PM
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM
You do love to highlight perceived negatives, do you not?
I recommend you study the big picture and then you will see how fallacious your comments are!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 07:44 AM

" Instead of giving our CAP donation to the EU it could go straight to farmers."

Would that be along the same lines as to giving £350,000,000 to the NHS?.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 07:55 AM

The government has already said that it won't "give it straight to farmers." Farmers are going to have to do environmentally nice things, as yet unspecified, and open the land up, etc. (sure, let the public trample all over their fields!), before they'll get any dough. And you can bet your life that it'll be a damn sight less than they get now. Most farms in this country rely on subsidies to survive. This is a time bomb. Yet why make it a priority when agriculture generates less than 1% of GDP, said the cynic...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 08:01 AM

Don't forget they have to do all that at the same time as "growing more here" according to Chris Grayling (in October), if prices rise for imported EU food.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 08:36 AM

Well I suppose they could "grow more here" by planting things closer together, or we could start a national window-box campaign... no doubt the expert Mr Grayling will tell us how it's to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 08:39 AM

Rag,
So the Eurozone put in a RECORD performance,

Only in December.

" Instead of giving our CAP donation to the EU it could go straight to farmers."
Would that be along the same lines as to giving ?350,000,000 to the NHS?.

We pay much more into CAP than is returned to us in grants.
More money will be available after Brexit.

Steve,
The government has already said that it won't "give it straight to farmers."

Our government can decide the criteria instead of unelected CAP beaurocrats.
If they get it wrong they can be voted out

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 08:43 AM

We'll all start doing wartime recipes Steve, I can make honey thats never seen a hive or a bee.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 08:57 AM

If it means that you personally will have to chew and disgorge the nectar seven times to thicken it up into honey, Raggytash, I think I'll stick to Peruvian lemon curd substitute...

Do keep up, Keith. The government is not replacing subsidies to farmers like-for-like. By the time this ragbag bunch of incompetents have finished the farmers will be pleading on their hands and knees, come back, unelected bureaucrats, all is forgiven...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 08:59 AM

As a matter of fact, we didn't actually elect Theresa May, did we?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:01 AM

It seems that this bunch of clowns can't even get a re-shuffle right
Worserer and worserer as each day passes - wait till the real problems wit Brexit start to surface!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:03 AM

So the Eurozone put in a RECORD performance, the US showed the HIGHEST factory growth but the UK SLOWED .............

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:05 AM

No, no that's far too much work. I just need a pan, a stove and two two other items to make honey.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:24 AM

From: Steve Shaw
As a matter of fact, we didn't actually elect Theresa May, did we?

Nor any other Prime minister!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:27 AM

Well I won't mess with your two two, Raggytash...

And Jeremy *unt stood his ground, told Theresa who's boss and not only kept the job she didn't want him in but got extra on top!

I'm going to write to Justine Greening and tell her to join the Labour Party where she's always belonged.

And Esther McVey - bwahahahaha!

Ain't no time for wonderin' why, whooppee, we all gonna die!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:33 AM

2400

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:47 AM

What's that, Nigel? Pounds per year from now on for the NHS?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM

No it's the number of stances the Government has had on Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM

Steve,
Do keep up, Keith. The government is not replacing subsidies to farmers like-for-like.

No, and the criteria for grants have yet to be established.
How clever of you to know already how it will work out.

What we do know for a fact is that we have always paid much more in to the CAP than our farmers get back.
After Brexit there will be more, as I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:38 AM

"Farmers will be guaranteed the same level of subsidy they now receive from the European Union for five years after Brexit in a government U-turn expected to cost more than £10 billion."

"Mr Gove has repeatedly criticised the CAP and its central concept of paying farmers according to the amount of land they own. More than two thirds of the £3 billion that farmers receive annually under the CAP is paid per acre, with subsidies accounting for more than half their total income."

"Several billionaires are among recipients of the highest farm subsidies under the CAP, including Khalid Abdullah al-Saud, who breeds racehorses on a Newmarket farm that receives more than £400,000 a year. There are 39 recipients of £1 million or more a year, including farms owned by Sir James Dyson, the inventor who backed Brexit."

"He will say that the new system of subsidies will “build on” the EU’s system, under which less than a third of total payments are linked to “countryside stewardship”, adding: “We will design a scheme accessible to almost any landowner or manager who wishes to enhance the natural environment by planting woodland, providing new habitats for wildlife, increasing biodiversity, contributing to improved water quality and returning cultivated land to wildflower meadows or other more natural states.” Mr Gove will also pledge more money to farmers who agree to club together to provide environmental benefits over large areas."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-gove-forced-to-plough-10bn-into-farm-grants-after-brexit-vpnpmdsx7

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:40 AM

Hi Steve

We were put on to McCallan many years ago when we were in PortPatrick in Scotland. It was two Coppers who were moonlighting as minders to a brand new up and coming star " who is going to be bigger than Elvis.....called Rick Astley !!!

"Talisker ordinary 10-year-old is a class act" I have a bottle unstarted. Tonight I will open it and see what I think,

" I blame brexit, global warming and Trump. And Mourinho. And Mansour. And Thatcher. And Chamberlain. And Sir Ian McGregor. And why should Disraeli get away unscathed...".    No you can't blame Maurinho, he ony drinks wine.!!!

"Ahah, I see Yeovil have got Man U next round! Liverpool seem to have it easy but that's exactly the sort of match they can screw up...""

Yea that's the beauty of the FA Cup. Nothing is safe. At least Liverpool are at home, We have to go to Yeovil and they have shifted some good teams in their history.

Cheers hic !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:50 AM

From: Steve Shaw

What's that, Nigel? Pounds per year from now on for the NHS?
Total number of posts so far in this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:18 AM

Even more potential bother for the UK Government it seems they MAY have broken International Law


Bother

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:45 AM

Four years and four months from now, actually, Keith, according to most sources. That's a lot less time than you claim, and very little is set in stone anyway. We all know what happened to the £350 million a week, don't we? Anyway, then what?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 06:09 PM

MPs could vote to rejoin customs union after Brexit

Ok, that's more theoretical than likely, and even if they did the EU might not play along. but it is an interesting outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 03:07 AM

From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:18 AM
Even more potential bother for the UK Government it seems they MAY have broken International Law

From your link:

A UN-backed committee has confirmed it is considering a complaint from Friends of the Earth that the government?s EU withdrawal bill breached the Aarhus convention, which requires public consultation on any new environmental law.

"May have broken" (past tense?)
That law (the Withdrawal Bill) has not yet been passed.

"Broken international law": The Aarhus convention is just that, a convention, not a law. Also it is a European convention. That does not really equate with "international" which would seem to suggest relating to all nations.
Also the convention grants the public a right to review changes, once they have happened. So we need to see whether there is an environmental impact of the Withdrawal Bill before deciding whether there is any recourse under the convention.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 04:26 AM

You haven't read the piece properly, Nigel. The alleged breach concerns lack of consultation prior to the passing of the repeal bill. The bill doesn't need to have passed into law first. And it seems to me, on a first reading of the link, that we are legally bound by the convention. And the word "international" need not embrace every country in the world. The Six Nations rugby matches are called international matches.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 05:11 AM

If UK farming no longer had support post brexit then Agriculture would shrink dramatically.Farming like any other business needs to keep in the black to survive. The EU has featherbedded farmers for decades (entitlements of tax payers money can be bought and sold). In or out of the EU subsidies cannot be eradicated without dire consequence.
And for our resident "well educated scientist", greening has been an essential part of farm payments for a considerable time.
I am surprised you do not acknowledge this, being an expert like!
" Farmers are going to have to do environmentally nice things, as yet unspecified, and open the land up, etc. (sure, let the public trample all over their fields!), before they'll get any dough"

Environmental measures were specified many years ago and getting more pervasive each year. Let us all have a few links to support your preposterous statement!


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/bps-2018
https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/sites/agriculture/files/leaflet_en.pdf

https://www.soilassociation.org/blogs/2017/february/payment-windows-for-organic-farmers-opening-across-the-uk/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 05:34 AM

That was pretty pointless. You haven't actually negated anything I've said, yet you saw an opportunity to be rude.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 07:41 AM

" Farmers are GOING TO HAVE DO ENVIRONMENTALLY NICE THINGS, as yet unspecified, and open the land up, etc. (sure, let the public trample all over their fields!), before they'll get any dough"
You appear to have a problem with tenses. Past present future. Just sayin like.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 07:50 AM

Sorry Iains, what Steve posted is quite clear and lucid. I don't understand what problem you have with it. Could it be that because there is absolutely no good news to report on the Brexit negotiations that you feel you have to attack the way a post is written?.


That potential troubles may lie ahead for numerous firms in the UK is yet another gloomy report to todays Guardian.


Loss of Funding

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:12 AM

From that link:
Those seeking contracts with the commission across seven programmes worth billions of pounds are instructed that if a procurement process runs beyond Brexit day, their application will be rejected and they will not be able to recoup funds spent during the process.

Is this the same EU that insists on UK making massive payments to cover 'prior commitments'?

Maybe we should make clear that we will reduce the 'Brexit bill' accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:30 AM

Yes Nigel there is a difference between PRIOR COMMITMENTS and potential FUTURE FUNDING.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 03:49 PM

Raggytash. My problem is the statement "farmers will have to do environmentally friendly things". If the phrase was qualified with "more", then I would have no issue. Farmers already are required to be environmentally friendly, and that requirement goes back many years. The REPS system in Ireland and the GLAS payments are but 2 examples. Similar schemes have been introduced in the UK.
Additionally Natura 2000 is a European network of important ecological sites. The EU Habitats Directive (92/43/EEC) placed an obligation on Member States of the EU to establish the Natura 2000 network. The network is made up of Special Protection Areas (SPAs), established under the EU Birds Directive (79/409/EEC), and SACs. Most of these areas are in private ownership.

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/nature/natura2000/sites/index_en.htm
Any farmer that owns land designated above no longer has freedom to farm as he might wish. What he can do is governed by diktat from on high. For example stocking numbers, upland management schemes, planning permission required for fencing, the list goes on.

My take is that upland farmers will be paid for custodianship of the landscape, that with the possible exception of a few isolated, limited areas, is largely a wholly artificial construction. (e.g.Killarney Lakes woodland, Wistmans Wood)
If one wishes to make the argument more should be done in the way of greening then again I would have no argument, although some of the absurdities of the present system should be ironed out. I find it ridiculous that one hill can be labelled SAC and the adjacent one blathered with wind turbines. I also find it strange that a boundary for a Special Conservation Area coincides with county boundaries. Isn't that just sooo convenient and scientific!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 04:38 PM

"Farmers already are required to be environmentally friendly"

Such as dousing land with neonicotinoids that decimate insects and songbirds, growing fields of maize on slopes that causes soil erosion, cultivating hundreds of acres of hedge-free barley prairies, growing Miscanthus elephant grass monoculture for biofuel on land that should be used for growing food, indulging in fads such as linseed that can only be harvested after scorched-earth dessicating herbicide treatment, thousands of acres of oilseed that can be grown only via intensive chemical input and which harbours flea beetles and pollen beetles...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:44 AM

Congratulations on being so selective. The other side of the coin is that if agriculture reverted to the techniques and chemical regime of many decades ago the population would inevitably shrink.
That is fine for the winners, not so good for the losers - although they could probably be recycled as fertilizer.

Once upon a time DDT was regarded as the best thing since sliced bread.
I believe Rachel Carson demolished that illusion.
Better hope genetically modified food does not exhibit similar unwelcome traits as time goes by.

Advances in any field progress in fits and starts, both forward and backward.
You, of all people, should appreciate this, being a well Edu........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:13 AM

I have always considered that the UK has made a huge mistake in voting for Brexit, an article in todays press suggests just how big a mistake that may prove to be.

Half a million jobs

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:33 AM

Yes Rag.
The Guardian is well known for its anti-Brexit stance.
Will you now link to a pro Brexit article from a pro-Brexit paper for balance?

We could all post articles at each other every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:38 AM

I have always considered that the UK has made a huge mistake in voting for Brexit, an article in todays press suggests just how big a mistake that may prove to be.

Half a million jobs

Sounds very much like the projections which were being made for an immediate loss of jobs if we voted for Brexit.

'Project fear' version 2 (or 3, or whatever it has got up to now)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM

Nigel, You perhaps missed the bit where I said "just how big a mistake that MAY prove to be."

Note the use of the word "MAY"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 07:23 AM

Another interesting article in todays Guardian.

A report that indicates that Farage is not opposed to a second referendum. I wonder if now, after realising how disastrous Brexit may be, he is having a rethink and doesn't want to be the person blamed for a catastrophe for decades to come.



Farage rethink

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 07:40 AM

I wonder if now, after realising how disastrous Brexit may be, he is having a rethink and doesn't want to be the person blamed for a catastrophe for decades to come.

No, I believe he stated his reasons quite clearly in the link you gave:

So maybe, just maybe, I'm reaching the point of thinking that we should have a second referendum on EU membership ; unless you want to have a multiple choice referendum, which would confuse people. I think that if we had a second referendum on EU membership we would kill it off for a generation.

The percentage that would vote to leave next time would be very much bigger than it was last time round. And we may just finish the whole thing off. And Blair can disappear off into total obscurity

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 07:54 AM

Yes, absolutely Nigel. Politicians always say exactly what they mean, mean what they say and, above all else, always tell the truth. Particularly good ol' Nige.

Now, I have formed this new party and am looking for members to fund an exciting project on ending world poverty. Can I sign you up?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 08:59 AM

Politicians may not always say what they mean. But that is no reason to post a link, and attribute to it something which was not said in the link.

Raggytash's musings could have been given without the link. Adding the link gives the implies that it will contain something to back up the musings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 09:09 AM

It implies no such thing.

This looks a bit fishy.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 09:11 AM

I did not attribute anything to the link Nigel, I gave the link but said:

" I wonder if now, after realising how disastrous Brexit may be, he is having a rethink and doesn't want to be the person blamed for a catastrophe for decades to come."

It is quite clear for you, I said "I wonder ........."

My "musings" would not have been valid without the link which stated that " Nigel Farage backs fresh referendum to kill off issue"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 09:20 AM

Other things we may be able to look forward to:

What, no deal !

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 09:21 AM

"Will you now link to a pro Brexit article from a pro-Brexit paper for balance?"
Probably as Likely as your posting one from an anti-Brexit source!
What a bizarre way of understanding discussion!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 09:30 AM

The Guardian article that Raggytash linked to was not an anti-brexit article, Keith. It was a news report that, in line with the Guardian's high journalistic standards, reported the finding of Khan's study perfectly neutrally. There is none of that Daily Mail news-mixed-with-tendentious-side-taking that you get every day in that filthy rag. And I might add that, in view of your own propensity for promoting just one side exclusively of any issue you discuss here, you are the very last person on earth who should be upbraiding anyone else for not providing "balance." You wouldn't know what "balance" was if it reared up and bit you on the arse.

I've changed my mind about a second referendum. I've been thinking for a while now that if one were called the British public would be so alienated by a renewed leave campaign that would be oh so easy to execute by slogan that they would vote leave in even greater numbers. The way out of this morass is for the political parties to decide en masse that they should, for once, ditch party priorities and put the interests of the country first. It could be that things will look so bad in the next few months that events could move in that direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 09:58 AM

You are quite correct Jim, however I have actually posted one thread with potentially good news about Brexit.

Admittedly it is the ONLY one I have seen that could be construed that way.

See my post of 2nd January at 05.24pm

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:14 PM

Probably as Likely as your posting one from an anti-Brexit source!

I have linked to several Guardian articles.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:06 PM

I am opposed to a second referendum on the same grounds I was opposed to the first: we are asking people with very little of the subject to decide on it. I know there are some obsessives who have followed every twist and turn, but most people haven't.

However, I am forced to temper that a bit because it relied on those who are actually paid to take a detailed interest, the politicians, actually thinking hard about it. There is little evidence that many of those are doing so either (witness the 'impact assessments') ...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 03:35 PM

"the Guardian's high journalistic standards" Even the Dandy and Beano could spell correctly unlike the above socialist rag. It is a staunchly leftwing newspaper supported by Labour members, unlike the daily wail that is proud to be the most rightwing UK publication. The Gruniard is closely followed by many teachers. In fact I can remember a schoolmaster of mine announcing to the class in 1959 that the Manchester Guardian would in future be called the Guardian. At 8 or 9 years old did I really give a sh*t?

It is interesting that the left has few newspapers, unlike the center and right. This is probably because papers like the guardian use the same approach to economics as successive Labour governments and, as been seen so many times,it is simply not viable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:21 PM

You really do talk total, complete, and unadulterated bollocks, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:46 PM

Utterly bloody ridiculous. And I'm supposed to be ignoring him!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:31 AM

It is so nice to see the delusion continue. To automatically label all that does not fit your ideology as false news is the hallmark of a ....?

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/07/how-left-or-right-wing-are-uks-newspapers/

and to short circuit the usual squawks may I remind you it is the figures and derivation of the figures that is crucial, not who publicised them.

After all do I automatically discount everything the gruniard publishes because it is a left wing rag? _ of course not! I just confirm other sources can validify the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:38 AM

may I remind you it is the figures and derivation of the figures that is crucial, not who publicised them.

Not so. As one who studied statistics, albeit only to a low level, one of the first things that you learn is that who collects the figures and how is of vital importance. A survey on the effects of chocolate done by Cadbury's is likely to show a different slant than one commissioned by the BDA.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:42 AM

What arrant nonsense Iains, firstly the article only gives "peoples perception" of where newspapers lie politically> Secondly even if we acknowledge those numbers, only 16% consider the Guardian to be very left wing. When you also consider that 3% of those people also consider the Daily Mail to be very left wing it doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:48 AM

Well Dave I think after the last referendum a sensible person would be very wary of placing too much faith in any sort of poll involving Joe Public. There is no way of cross checking the true feelings of the person being polled. Are they honest, mischievous, or just trying to throw a spanner in the works? I could be any one of those, depending upon the question being asked.
But in the case of the above link the conclusions are hardly controversial and most people would be in broad agreement with the result. One can hardly regard the guardian as being off way to the right of Attila the Hun.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:52 AM

Lies lies and more dammed lies???????

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/voting-newspaper-readership-1992-2010

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

Well at first glance it would seem that the Guardian has more Liberal voters than the Mail or Express.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 05:13 AM

"Even the Dandy and Beano could spell correctly unlike the above socialist rag."
That is a forty year old joke - nothing more
The standard of journalism in the Guardian is as high as any
More importantly, the non partisan depth of its journalism, alongside that of The Independent, outstrips any in Britain
Unlike the Telegraph, neither are connected to a specific political party.
Apart from The Daily Mirror, all the rest are firmly in the right camp - why not when most of them are owned by scum like Rupert Mudoch
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 05:25 AM

Are you giving us opinion or fact? or opinion as fact?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 05:56 AM

The Telegraph is not "connected" to any political party.
None of our newspapers are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM

"The Telegraph is not "connected" to any political party."
The Telgraph had always been the mouthpiece of the Conservative Party and has bee recognised as such
The Mirror was once an open supporter of the Labour Party
Enough of this banter
Nigel the Farrago has done a screeching U-turn and is now advocating a second Brexit referendum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:59 AM

I prefer Nigel Fartarse myself. It better describes his sounding off and suits my childish sense of humour :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 07:38 AM

Nigel the Farrago has done a screeching U-turn and is now advocating a second Brexit referendum

Really?
I think you may be going on the headlines again, rather than on what was actually said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 07:44 AM

"I think you may be going on the headlines again, rather than on what was actually said."
Just read the Times report Nigel
You might be able to tell me something different
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:13 AM

I've read the Times reports (online)
One day they say: Nigel Farage on verge of backing second Brexit vote to stop Remainers 'whining'
The former party leader, who is still an MEP and leads the Ukip bloc in the European parliament, said today that he was on the brink of backing another vote to 'kill off' the Remain campaign for a generation.

He said that Europhile campaigners such as Tony Blair, Sir Nick Clegg and the Labour peer Lord Adonis would not stop 'whinging and whining' throughout Brexit negotiations and indicated he was coming around to the idea that a second vote would settle the issue.

Next day they say: Nigel Farage climbs down after backing second Brexit referendum
The former Ukip leader, who leads the party's bloc in the European parliament, had said he was close to supporting another vote to 'kill off' the Remain campaign for a generation.

However, hours after suggesting that a second vote would put an end to 'whinging and whining' by opponents of Brexit, he stressed: "I do not want a second referendum."

So first he said that he was on the brink of supporting a second referendum (a different matter from proposing one).
Then he clarified that he does not want a referendum, but that Brexit supporters need to be ready because it may still be forced on us anyway.

Nowhere (that I can see) does the Times claim, as you said: Nigel the Farrago has done a screeching U-turn and is now advocating a second Brexit referendum

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:13 AM

Brexit good news !!!!

Good News !!










Well it's hopeful news for Ireland at least !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:49 AM

It would require far more than another brexit vote to stop the remoaners whining. Their screeching, whining, wailing and moaning has carried on apace since the referendum results shattered their every illusion. What a bunch of losers!


We didn't vote for Brexit

and for the illustrious winners:

Leaving

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 09:01 AM

"So first he said that he was on the brink of supporting a second referendum (a different matter from proposing one)."
Really?
Basically, he is saying the same thing - the Times quoted him as saying that a second vote would confirm a majority in favour of leaving
It sounds to me that he has realised hi gaffe and hastily extracted his foot from his mouth - one of the job descriptions of being a politician in today's Britain
Who gives a toss anyway - the man is a racit moron who would fir perfectly into racist Trump's inner circle - a PERSONAL AMBITION , no doubt
The lady from BRITAIN FIRST is about to be put of trial for incitement to race hatred and has appealed to Trump to save her from going to jail
What a ****** sordid bunch - I hope you are taking a long spoon to that particular dinner party Nigel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 09:39 AM

I have posted it before but, once again, the best brexit song ever.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 11:47 AM

"It would require far more than another brexit vote to stop the remoaners whining. Their screeching, whining, wailing and moaning has carried on apace since the referendum results shattered their every illusion. What a bunch of losers!"

And, Teribus, had the majority been exactly the reverse - 51% 'Remain', 49% 'Leave', it would have been you and your bunch who would have been screeching, whining, wailing and moaning - your haddock-faced hero, Farridge, stayed before the vote that, if it was a close 'Remain' majority, three or four percent, he would demand another vote.

But not to worry, the unicorns will be here soon...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 01:23 PM

Stayed?? STATED! ??

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 01:27 PM

"But not to worry, the unicorns will be here soon..."

Oh Dear. More fantasy from the remoaners!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 05:58 PM

Someone other than remoaners is getting very worried about the implications of hard brexit.
For those that might like to squeak about the date of the article there is a tv program on Monday in Ireland about the same subject, so they can reconcile past and future. And for those that like to disparage the newspaper printing the article I should emphasize that it is an EU report being quoted.

This is a fine example of the EU attempts to be hardass having negative impacts upon their own. (Cutting off the nose to spite the face springs to mind, or for the EU farming lobby: don't bite the hand that feeds you)

https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/hard-brexit-would-cost-irish-agriculture-55bn-stark-eu-report-predicts-36262933.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:03 PM

Do try to focus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:12 PM

What on? The unicorns?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 03:30 AM

You were gullible enough to fall for the BrexShit-BullShit, anyone that feeble-minded would be perfectly likely to believe in unicorns.

No comment regarding Farridge's statement that, if there was a close 'Remain' majority, he'd kick-off for a second referendum then? Sauce for the goose...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 05:11 AM

Another one that cannot differentiate between fact and fantasy. A leftard failing unfortunately. This is why most of what they post is unstructured rant. Some cannot even construct links. I suspect this is merely a subterfuge enabling outrageous statements to be made without facts to support.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 05:46 AM

So, what do you have to say about Farridge's statement, immediately prior to the referendum, that if there was a close result in favour of 'Remain', he would demand a re-run?

Never mind the Righty-bollocks, answer the bloody question, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 06:12 AM

I believe Nigel Parsons answered the question above more than adequately. If you did not understand the first time what is likely to change the second time, or sequentially after that?

I know it is said that given long enough a monkey could tap out the bible, but in your case...................

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 06:33 AM

Neither Nigel has adequately explained why Farage was not true to his word when he said there should be a second referendum if the leave vote was not more than 2/3rds.

There could be unstoppable demand for a re-run of the EU referendum if Remain wins by a narrow margin on 23 June, UKIP leader Nigel Farage has said.
...
The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it." (BBC News 17 May 2016)

Of course it could be explained by the fact that he is a lying manipulative little shit.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 07:27 AM

Dave. Welcome to reality! Your description is of course a blanket to include most if not all politicians. It could almost be regarded as a prerequisite for the "job".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 08:14 AM

John Adams was a puritanical racist who vacillated disgracefully on the matter of slavery (kudos to the man for not actually buying slaves himself). I prefer CP Scott's take on facts meself, namely that comment is free but facts are sacred. Of course, Guardian-despising, Mail-loving brexiteers may demur. Gosh, they should know all about facts, after all, we're getting £350 million a week for the NHS and High Court judges are the enemies of the people....


And the Guardian is a tabloid from Monday. Wheeee!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 10:59 AM

What do you mean, welcome to reality, Iains? I have been saying the same of all politicians since I was old enough to listen to them for longer than 30 seconds. I always hoped that some would prove me wrong and there have been a few, from both sides of the house, in the past. The current shower of shits could not be strait if you strapped spirit levels to them. I have hopes for Corbyn but he is not yet in power and seems to have tied his colours to the brexit mast. Early days for him yet.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 11:03 AM

"we're getting £350 million a week for the NHS "
No. This is about a future event presented as a possibility.
As the good book says: It has to come to pass before it can be considered a reality.

Facts can be Ooooh so awkward for those that cannot see the light!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 11:12 AM

Brex-Shit very stable geniuses interrupt Sadiq Khan:

Click Here

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 02:53 PM

"Possibility"? It was presented to us as a promise. And that's a fact. I saw it on the side of a bloody huge great big bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 03:02 PM

"I believe Nigel Parsons answered the question above more than adequately. If you did not understand the first time what is likely to change the second time, or sequentially after that?

I know it is said that given long enough a monkey could tap out the bible, but in your case..................."

No, Teribus, he didn't. He was discussing last week's kerfuffle when Farridge appeared to back another referendum, but then about-turned at a rate of knots that The Praying Mantis, May, would be proud of.

I'm asking about his comment before the June 2016 Referendum, and widely reported at that time, that a narrow win for Remain would mean that there was 'unfinished business', and that he would push for a re-run.

You know this perfectly well, even though you're wriggling to avoid answering as usual.

And the insults you're so fond of throwing do nothing to enhance your arguments, they just confirm what the majority here already know about you...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 03:51 PM

""Possibility"? It was presented to us as a promise. And that's a fact. I saw it on the side of a bloody huge great big bus."

It is carefully overlooked that the wheels on the bus went round and round due to the actions of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_Leave
Campaign which had cross party support if you study the makeup.
The actual wording on the bus was: We send the EU 350million a week.
Let's fund our NHS instead.
Diane Abbotwas convinced it was Nigel Farage that was responsible butshe appears confused on many issue , does she not.
When the new PM was in power the slogan was promptly dropped.

You may regard it as a promise supported by both conservative and labour, but I would regard it as stating a possible option.
The side of a bus is often used to advertise. Do you regard all their spiel as promises?

It is note worthy that the chair(person) of the leave campaign responsible for the slogan was Gisela Stuart, Labour MP for Birmingham Edgbaston

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 04:00 PM

It's strange that you should mention Gisela Stuart this is the exact words she said in relation to the slogan on the Brexit Bus:

"We should give our struggling NHS the £350m we send to the EU every week"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 04:40 PM

For some obscure reason my link above vanished somewhere into cyberspace. I had no idea the slogan came from the cross party leave campaign until I started looking up a response to Steve's post. I had automatically accepted it was a jolly jape from the Conservatives. So everyone else can share this rather important knowledge I will attempt the link again as the provenance of slogan is obviously cross party.
This puts a rather different slant on the perpetual sniping.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_Leave

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 04:45 PM

I would expect an advert on the side of a bus to live up to its promise. Isn't that what advertising standards are all about? FWIW, darling of the brexit campaign and all round slimey toad himself agreed it was a pledge and disowned it within an hour of the referendum result.

"No I can?t [guarantee it], and I would never have made that claim. That was one of the mistakes that I think the Leave campaign made," he said.

When it was pointed out that Vote Leave emblazoned the ?350 million claim onto the side of a tour bus and drove it around the country, Mr Farage said: ?It wasn?t one of my adverts " I can assure you! I think they made a mistake in doing that. "

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 04:47 PM

Iains, can you demonstrate us anything positive outcome to come from the decision for the UK to leave the EU.

Anything at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 04:54 PM

That Gisela Stuart was chair of the "Vote Leave" campaign should not come as a surprise to anyone. She was in at least one of the major televised debates before the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 05:10 PM

It was not an advert on the side of a bus. It was a slogan on the side of a bus. I don't care which bloody parties were involved. It wasn't put on the bus by a party. It was put on the bus by the Leave campaign, or at least one of that motley collection of leave factions anyway. Comment is free but facts are sacred. And straws are for chewing by besmocked yokels leaning on gates, not for clutching at. Ooarrr.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 05:24 PM

Raggytash. As my familiarity with scrying and divination is somewhat limited, and my belief in it even more limited, then I am afraid we will have to wait for days of future past before I can pass judgement on the efficasy of Brexit.
We appear to have a problem with promises concerning future possible outcomees already on this thread. I would be loath to contribute to
further confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 06:04 PM

"It was not an advert on the side of a bus. It was a slogan on the side of a bus.2


Not much point in having a slogan if you do not advertise it. Are we reduced to arguing semantics now?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 07:59 PM

No, YOU are reduced to defending the reneging on a blatantly obvious assurance that the NHS was going to get £350 million a week after brexit. Still think it will? Huh? Isn't that the bottom line?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 03:21 AM

SNP still very unhappy

Ms Sturgeon said that so-called hard Brexiteers had failed to show how their approach would compensate for the loss of access to European markets.

She said: "More than 18 months on from the Brexit vote, it beggars belief that the UK government is not only still unable to say what kind of relationship it wants with the EU, but has also failed to produce any meaningful economic assessment of the different possibilities."

Ms Sturgeon added: "There is zero credible evidence to suggest leaving the single market will bring any benefit to our economy. Indeed, as our analysis will show - the harder the Brexit the worse will be the outcome."


A golden chance to prove her wrong here, folks. Just show the credible analyses requested.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 03:38 AM

Can anyone come up with any positive outcomes that may happen when we leave the EU then?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 04:14 AM

We leave the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 04:20 AM

For Steve: Slogans , Advertising:

Go to work on an egg
The esso sign means happy motoring
A mars a day helps you work, rest and play
You are never alone with a strand
Need I go on???????????

When you have successfully demonstrated going to work on an egg, come back and argue some more!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 04:40 AM

We leave the EU.

That may be your opinion, Iains, but I am sure you would acknowledge not everyone agrees. Answering the questions the Scottish Government raised and I repeated would be a better answer. To begin how about explaining what the phrase means by addressing it beggars belief that the UK government is not only still unable to say what kind of relationship it wants with the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

Iains. Why is leaving the EU a positive outcome in itself then?

I must compliment you on the choice of advertising slogans though. They were all misleading and none of them would be allowed today. They demonstrate perfectly how misleading the 350 million one was as well. If there is one single thing you could have done to show what a lie the leave campaign was, that was it. Thank you.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 05:47 AM

"Raggytash. As my familiarity with scrying and divination is somewhat limited, and my belief in it even more limited, then I am afraid we will have to wait for days of future past before I can pass judgement on the efficasy of Brexit. We appear to have a problem with promises concerning future possible outcomees already on this thread. I would be loath to contribute to further confusion."

So you voted to leave the EU, without knowing what possible benefits could arise, without an inkling of the damage it could do, without knowing sfa about the future. Just how did you justify your vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 06:09 AM

You can buy eggs, petrol, Mars bars and Strand fags. Advertising, you see. These days, if an ad promises undeliverable things, the company gets punished. You are not allowed to say that Mars bars will make you big and strong or that Esso petrol will make your car go twice as fast. If you want to see your bus slogan as an ad in that same vein, then its perpetrators should be punished. The £350 million could never have been delivered in any case, as that sum was based on a gross figure. The real net figure was around half that sum, a fact concealed by the dishonesty of the leave campaign, but, even so, it was still undeliverable as other economic consequences of brexit (as we've seen) would have prevented it. Of course you can advertise with slogans, but in the case of the bus message it was an attempt by lying slogan to sucker people into voting brexit. You may try and defend it, but, but any reasonable measure, it was indefensible right from the outset.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 06:15 AM

Raggytash. I said many months ago the EU is on a path of creeping federalism. I would want no part of it.

I have also said I would have preferred to argue for change within the EU

I have also said here that I have my doubts as to whether Brexit will occur.
We shall see!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 06:22 AM

I doubt if another referendum will be held, I think it would be considered political suicide for a leader of the two major parties to suggest such.

However I hope to be proved wrong on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 06:25 AM

"I must compliment you on the choice of advertising slogans though. They were all misleading and none of them would be allowed today"

Not entirely true!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/06/advertising-standards-authority-political-advertisements

I notice you all keepvery quiet about the following though:
"The Treasury?s mailshot claiming UK families would be ?4,300 a year worse off if Britain left the EU"    Tsk, Tsk!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM

Everything going pear-shaped in the forthcoming negotiations could be the game-changer. We may not need another referendum in order to prevent this impending disaster. I'm convinced in any case that another referendum would give the same result, as millions of voters would be persuaded, wrongly, that calling it was an affront to democracy. That would be an extremely easy case to make by leavers, much easier than the case the remain side would be able to make. I can just see the sloganising now. In fact, I think I'll put myself up for the job of slogan-writer for the leave side. Money for old rope.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 06:37 AM

Nobody's "keeping quiet" about the lies told by the leave side, in particular the lies told by the disreputable ex-Chancellor. The remainers here have frequently referred to the shambolic and dishonest campaigning on both sides. But, as the leave side held sway, it's their promises that we have to hold to account now. They are the ones that affect us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 06:47 AM

Sorry, I meant remain side in my first sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM

The bus slogan was challenged at the time it appeared and debated in high profile well before the vote.
Voters knew it was not any kind of promise and were aware of all the objections to it.

Why debate it again?
The debate happened and you still lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 07:42 AM

I watched "Darkest Hour" on Friday.
The choice was to give up a little sovereignty or face the loss off billions in money and hundreds of thousands of lives instead.

They chose to preserve their full sovereignty and take the hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 07:49 AM

Keep the home fires burning
while your hearts are yearning
though your lads are far away
they dream of home
there's a silver lining
through the dark clouds shining
turn the dark clouds inside out
'til the boys come home

Thought I may as well post this as it has as much relevance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:35 AM

I notice you all keep very quiet about the following though

Neither I nor anyone arguing for remaining has kept quiet about the dirty tricks the remain campaign used. They both told lies and exagurated. One does not justify the other though and trying to justify the 350 million pound lie with whataboutism just does not wash.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:46 AM

Another one here who is not defending the lies and misrepresentations of either side. But it is worth remembering what was said about the £4300 at the time (18 April 2016):

"Reality Check verdict: The precise figure is questionable and probably not particularly helpful. If you want to be influenced by economic modelling, the useful thing to take away is that the Treasury thinks leaving the EU would be bad for the economy, by an amount that would dwarf the savings from not having to contribute to the EU Budget."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:52 AM

Describing the conflicts of the Second World War as about "giving up a little sovereignty" is a new use of the adjective 'little' to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:59 AM

DMcG, there is absolutely no correlation between the two events.

There are some however who cannot tell the difference, they probably read the Daily Mail and wear union flag underpants.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 10:22 AM

DMcG that was the position of Halifax and those who wanted to go for a peace settlement in 1940.
The deal would involve a small loss of sovereignty but a saving in money and lives when the war seemed lost anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 12:10 PM

History is definitely not my subject, but I understood Lord Halifax was in favour of a negotiates settlement. I am by no means convinced he or anyone else would have referred to it as a little loss of sovereignty. But if you can give me a cabinet paper reference where he did I would be obliged.

But let us not forgwt this thread is about "Poat Brexit" not the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 12:58 PM

DMcG it's just another feeble attempt to divert the subject of the thread.

I wonder if, like Farage, some people have thought Oops we've might have made a monumental cock-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 02:26 PM

Another almost full page about the slogan on the side of a bus, and still no-one can show that any of those campaigning for leave intended that this was a promise of what the country would do with 350 million a week post Brexit.

Also:
From: Dave the Gnome

Neither Nigel has adequately explained why Farage was not true to his word when he said there should be a second referendum if the leave vote was not more than 2/3rds.

There could be unstoppable demand for a re-run of the EU referendum if Remain wins by a narrow margin on 23 June, UKIP leader Nigel Farage has said.
...
The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it." (BBC News 17 May 2016)

Of course it could be explained by the fact that he is a lying manipulative little shit.

While I have no real insight into the workings of Nigel Farage's mind, I can suggest that he might have meant that a close run result (in favour of 'Remain') would be open to challenge because of the use of public money to fund the one-sided propaganda issued by the remain side.
He then went on that this would only be a realistic challenge if the vote was close. A 2/3 majority (of those voting, and in favour of Remain) would have settled the matter.

As it was, the Brexit team won the referendum with a slender majority (of those voting) despite attempts to use public funds to weight the vote.

Recent moves to tax donors to only one side of the referendum show just how ingrained this weighting of the vote is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 02:52 PM

You still haven't commented on Gisela Stuart's campaign leaflet which said "Let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week", if I recall rightly, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 02:54 PM

From: Keith A of Hertford
I watched "Darkest Hour" on Friday.
The choice was to give up a little sovereignty or face the loss off billions in money and hundreds of thousands of lives instead.

They chose to preserve their full sovereignty and take the hit.

It might be a 'slight' loss of sovereignty for the UK, but it would also mean the acceptance that Germany could keep controls of all the land they had already conquered, or were in the process of conquering, or had invaded, and planned to conquer.

Under those circumstances it was not just a matter of what was best for Britain.

And as Germany had ignored the settlements following WW I there could be no certainty that they would keep any new agreement.

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.
(Kipling)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 03:02 PM

To get back to "Post Brexit life in the UK" as opposed to events of approaching 80 years ago:
concerns are being expressed about security ageements with the EU .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 04:14 PM

DMcG.
The fore runner of Interpol started in 1923, long before the EU was a gleam in Germany's eye.
Do you think that Interpol would be restricted in any way by Brexit? Similarly Security concerns are also a two way street and mutually beneficial. Do you seriously think that will be put in jeopardy?

Just another scare story!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 04:18 PM

and still no-one can show that any of those campaigning for leave intended that this was a promise of what the country would do with 350 million a week post Brexit.

It doesn't matter one jot whether it was a promise or not. People believed that is what would be done and they were misled. As Iains pointed out, it was not a promise that a Mars a day would help you work rest and play, nor was it a promise that if you smoked Strand cigarettes you would be surrounded by friends. But that is what people were told and it is what sold the products.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM

It is not a matter of when these organisations were founded. It is what agreements, protocols and mechanisms have been added in the past 40 years that need to be revisited.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 04:43 PM

Unfortunately gullibility is not sufficient reason to disenfranchise a person. Perhaps it should be!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 05:06 PM

Did you know that there is no entry for gullible in the OED?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 05:42 PM

Try the cambridge one then!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 07:43 PM

From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 02:52 PM

You still haven't commented on Gisela Stuart's campaign leaflet which said "Let's give our NHS the 350 million the EU takes every week", if I recall rightly, Nigel.

To quote from one of those taking your side of the argument:
From: Raggytash -
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 04:00
It's strange that you should mention Gisela Stuart this is the exact words she said in relation to the slogan on the Brexit Bus:
"We should give our struggling NHS the 350m we send to the EU every week"
"We should" is not the same as "We will"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:28 PM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 05:06 PM

Did you know that there is no entry for gullible in the OED?

An oft quoted 'fact'.
There is an entry for 'gull', and gullible comes under this heading.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:35 PM

Why are some people trying to deflect the conversation away from the actual Brexit debate.

For example, references to WW11. At the present time only about 10% of the population were born prior to 1945. About half of those are old enough to have any memory of that time.

It is totally irrelevant to the current discussion, and with all due respect to those good people they will have, in all probability, shuffled off this mortal coil before it is all done and dusted.

The discussion should remain on what are we, as a nation, going to do about tomorrow. What are we going to do for our children and grandchildren.

Given the current contributions it would seem like SFA!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 01:48 AM

Maybe Raggy is referring to a different Gisela Stuart leaflet to the one I was. The words on the poster I meant were exactly as I gave them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 02:23 AM

I stand admonished, Raggytash. Whether anyone did or did not promise such largesse for the NHS is a different thing to whether it will get it. And no one seems to be claiming it will.

There should be plenty to discuss this week though with the second reading of the bill then onto the Lords...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 04:56 AM

Rag,
Why are some people trying to deflect the conversation away from the actual Brexit debate.

Yes. Shame on me for making an interesting historical comparison.
Meanwhile you strutting arrogant people are free to discuss food, football and any whim that occurs to you on any thread you like because you own these threads and the rules do not apply to you.

DMcG, in 1940 the country was virtually bankrupted and still grieving a lost generation of young men from just 22 years previous.
The German peace overtures could not be dismissed out of hand, and many in the Establishment were in favour. The whole of Europe had already fallen.
The issue was sovereignty and trust, as it is now.
As now those issues often seem less important to Establishment and metropolitan types than to ordinary people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 05:30 AM

Two questions from Raggytash:
"Why are some people trying to deflect the conversation away from the actual Brexit debate"
"DMcG it's just another feeble attempt to divert the subject of the thread."


From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 08:56 AM

Ah yes, Mike! That goal guarantees that he'll be the new darling of the Kop. Bit of a soft penalty... but I was gobsmacked when Holgate wasn't sent off. I thought that Bobby Firmino reacted like a normal human being in the face of that extreme provocation. Wonder what he said, though. Apparently, neither the ref nor Holgate speak Portuguese, so will we ever know?!
"From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:05 AM

No, no that's far too much work. I just need a pan, a stove and two two other items to make honey."

IHAVE NO IDEA. PERHAPS YOU SHOULD ASK YOURSELF FIRST!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM

Scotland's Place in Europe

This predicts a big impact of a Hard Brexit on Scotland.

I hope to get a more considered response than 'Scare Story/Project Fear' - but don't really expect it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

And how many threads have you hijacked, Keith, in order to make them about Israel, "Labour antisemitism" or yourself?

And I could suggest that the easiest way of blowing a thread off course is to indulge in gratuitous sneery insults and name calling. In that regard, there appears to be a pot here encrusted with a six-inch layer of soot calling some shiny new lacquered kettles black.

In any case, little diversions about food and football never strand threads off-topic for very long. They are just that, diversions. On top of that, they can have the serendipitous effects of annoying troublemakers, blowing away red mist and defusing squabbles. They are all to the good, and I've had a few good recipe ideas from them. It's Blue Monday today, the most miserable day of the year, so let's applaud all attempts to lighten ourselves up!

Raggytash, you'll get your pint back if tonight's result is anything other than a draw. More specifically, I predict Man U 0 Stoke 0.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 07:05 AM

On the topic of football, very sad to hear this morning of the death of Cyrille Regis. A great player, strong and brave - in every sense - and an inspiration to many.
RIP.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 07:35 AM

Steve,
And how many threads have you hijacked, Keith, in order to make them about Israel, "Labour antisemitism" or yourself?

None Steve.

DMcG, forgive me if I reply here to your PM.
The central conflict of the film (Darkest Hour), and I am sure the reason it has been made at this time, is that between the people and the Establishment/ruling elite over whether to fight on in an apparently hopeless and inevitably costly war or to accept a peace treaty.

I do not claim historical authenticity for the film and can attest that it was inaccurate in many respects.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 08:04 AM

For information to others: I PM'd Keith to try to discuss Halifax without cluttering this thread further. I haven't seen the film but in my admittedly limited understanding of what actually happened it was between one part of the Establishment (Churchill) and another part (Halifax and co), with 'the people' hardly getting a look in as usual.


Enough on that.

Now, any comments on the paper Scotland has just published on what it wants its role to be post Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 08:45 AM

From what I've read of the Scotland paper it appears to be mainly wishful thinking.
The Scots politicians seem to think that 'equal treatment' would mean that on any national (UK) matter Scotland gets an equal say with Wales, England & Northern Ireland, rather than a say proportional to their population.
Before the referendum the Scots held a referendum on whether they wished to be a separate state, or part of the union. As a result they are included in the UK for what happens now with Brexit.
They may wish to be the 'tail that wags the dog' but that isn't going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:02 AM

Agreed heartily, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:28 AM

I didn't get that from the paper, though I have heard that said many times since the vote.

The paper reads to me much more as 'independence light', with the prospect of another vote on independence if it comes to it. For example, it says the powers on fishing should be devolved to Scotland, rarher than retained in Westminster. You may agree or not, but that is hardly scotland trying to control England's fisheries, which tail wagging the dog would suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:35 AM

DMcG
it was between one part of the Establishment (Churchill) and another part (Halifax and co), with 'the people' hardly getting a look in as usual.
Wiki,
"Halifax's implication was that if Churchill would not accept an attempt at peace, he would be forced to resign. If Halifax had resigned, most likely Chamberlain would follow, and then, Churchill would have faced a parliamentary revolt from the Conservative Party in the House of Commons, which could have led to his resignation as Prime Minister and the re-appointment of Chamberlain or possibly to the appointment of Halifax.
Faced with the threat of Halifax's resignation Churchill retreated from his hawkish position:"

That strongly suggests that most of the Establishment was with Halifax.

Churchill wrote, " I was sure that every Minister was ready to be killed quite soon, and have all his family and possessions destroyed, rather than give in. In this they represented the House of Commons and almost all the people. It fell to me in these coming days and months to express their sentiments on suitable occasions. This I was able to do because they were mine also. There was a white glow, overpowering, sublime, which ran though our Island from end to end."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1940_War_Cabinet_crisis

There were no anti-war public demonstrations or any indications that the people who would have to do the fighting and suffer the economic consequences did not support the war.
Few would now argue that they were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:38 AM

An assessment published today reports that Brexit will sriouly damages the economies of both Britain and the E.U.
Cutting noses off to spite faces writ large
Given the Carillion catastrophe, things really don't auger well for those who will be forced to pick up the tab
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:43 AM

You were moaning this very morning about us strutting, arrogant types derailing threads, Keith. So you've changed your mind about that now, have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:46 AM

Jim:
Which assessment is that?
We can hardly discuss it if we don't know what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 11:33 AM

Reported in The Irish Times his morning Nigel
OLD NEWS it seems
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 11:42 AM

"Singers and Songs of County Clare"
Doesn't seem to mention Brexit though.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 12:18 PM

Maybe he meant song and dance. It would match the sentiment of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 12:39 PM

Steve,
You were moaning this very morning about us strutting, arrogant types derailing threads, Keith. So you've changed your mind about that now, have you?

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 12:57 PM

So it's do as I say, not as I do, eh, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 01:22 PM

It's not compulsory to jump through The Big Kid's hoops.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 01:25 PM

Not even if it means having fun?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 01:44 PM

Whoops - sorry Nige - link to another argument
I chose one of two articles fro last year saying that Brexit will adversely effect the economies of Britain and the E.U.
THis was claimed to have been confirmed in this morning's paper
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 01:52 PM

Steve,
So it's do as I say, not as I do, eh, Keith?

No. I posted about an historical precedent for the Establishment being out of touch with the will of the people such as we have seen over Brexit.
I have not indulged in random posts about food or football or any other irrelevance like you people do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Allan Conn
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 02:23 PM

"Before the referendum the Scots held a referendum on whether they wished to be a separate state, or part of the union. As a result they are included in the UK for what happens now with Brexit."

They did vote to stay in the union with at least part of the argument which was put to them being that staying in the UK was the only way they could guarantee they retain membership of the EU. How does that equate with what has happened since? Secondly democracy doesn't end there and in the last Scottish elections (after being pressed to do so by especially the Scottish Tories) the SNP confirmed in their manifesto under what circumstances they would consider having another vote. The two examples given were if there was a substantial and sustained swing in the polls towards independence - or if there was a major change in curcumstances with the example quoted in the manifesto being if Scotland is taken out of the EU against the wishes of the people of Scotland. The SNP won the election on that basis. The Scottish people then voted pretty solidly to stay in the EU. The Holyrood Parliament then later voted in principle giving the Scottish gvt the mandate to hold a second vote. Sturgeon has softened the position where the mandate stated if we were taken out of the EU there would be another vote to the present position of we will see what the deal is like before deciding if there is another vote or not. She has the mandate from both the Scottish people and the Scottish parliament. Some folks might not like that but we all have votes where we don't like the results.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 02:54 PM

I'm sure the moderators would intervene if there was any cause for concern in the subject matter. Maybe they should with anyone pejuratively referring to 'you people' strutting arrogantly. After all, the only rule is along the the lines of 'be nice' and there is not much nicer than the pursuits we all enjoy:-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 03:28 PM

Once again it would seem the present Government is set on shafting the public.


Human Rights

Is there any good news from this debacle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 03:34 PM

No-one has come with any yet, Raggy.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 03:36 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 02:54 PM

I'm sure the moderators would intervene if there was any cause for concern in the subject matter. Maybe they should with anyone pejuratively referring to 'you people' strutting arrogantly. After all, the only rule is along the the lines of 'be nice' and there is not much nicer than the pursuits we all enjoy:-)

DtG
DTG - says it all, conjures in my mind a Monty Python script

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 03:58 PM

Thank you, Kenny B.

Is this is the 30 minute argument?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 04:22 PM

The more confusion sown over human right in the UK, the better the legal profession like it, More fuss, more fees.

How many MP's have had prior careers in the legal profession?
According to a freedom of information request it is a secret!

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/mps_that_are_barristers_or_solic

YOU GOV. states: Jul 24, 2014 - British people want fewer lawyers and more doctors, scientists and factory workers in Parliament

"MPs With Legal Backgrounds Increases 21/05/2015. Earlier this week, we revealed the Cabinet ministers who had a legal background. Now, thanks to research by BPP University, it has also been revealed that the number of MPs with a legal background has increased by 40%. Wow! 119 of 650 MPs (18.3%) have ..." (full article linked below)

https://www.allaboutlaw.co.uk/law-news/mps-with-legal-backgrounds-increases

"And God said: "Let there be Satan, so people don't blame everything on me. And let there be lawyers, so people don't blame everything on Satan."

"LAWYER: A professional advocate hired to bend the law on behalf of a paying client; for this reason considered the most suitable background for entry into politics."

"There's no better way of exercising the imagination than the study of law. No poet ever interpreted nature as freely as a lawyer interprets the truth."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 04:50 PM

There must be some fine lawyers on here then Iains.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 05:58 PM

Dave. You may be correct. But are they bent to the left or right?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 06:05 PM

Inanes, only one "bent" is you, my friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 07:25 PM

Whereas your postings are oft-times so convoluted that you must surely be a corkscrew.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 01:46 AM

Thanks, Allen. A well wrutten summary of the situation which, tigether with

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 01:49 AM

Oops..
Togethwr with the paper makes Scotland's case ckearly and rationally. How it will fare against Westminster dogma is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 02:05 AM

The 'good news' continues:

"Member states have ruled out allowing British carriers the freedom to fly passengers and luggage between destinations on the continent post-Brexit, with UK carriers to be permitted only four of the nine “freedoms” to operate they currently enjoy" (guardian, today)

I am sure we will be told that is mere posturing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 03:36 AM

From: Allan Conn
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 02:23 PM

(Nigel)"Before the referendum the Scots held a referendum on whether they wished to be a separate state, or part of the union. As a result they are included in the UK for what happens now with Brexit."

(Allan)They did vote to stay in the union with at least part of the argument which was put to them being that staying in the UK was the only way they could guarantee they retain membership of the EU. How does that equate with what has happened since?

I don't recall it as a promise that staying in the UK would guarantee continued membership of the EU. As I recall it was more a case of "If independence goes ahead Scotland will not be a member of the EU even if UK remains a member." In other words, an independent Scotland would automatically have lost its membership rights (as it had none in its own name).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 04:02 AM


(Allan)They did vote to stay in the union with at least part of the argument which was put to them being that staying in the UK was the only way they could guarantee they retain membership of the EU. How does that equate with what has happened since?

I don't recall it as a promise that staying in the UK would guarantee continued membership of the EU


Ok, so maybe Allen should have written "...was put to them being that staying in the UK was the only way they could retain membership of the EU". Arguing about whether there was a guarantee or not misses the salient point that membership of the EU was raised many times and was a factor in persuading some people to vote the way they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 04:08 AM

I should add there is a perfectly valid reason why Allen used the word 'guarantee' there and it is connected with whether the EU would have accepted Scotland as a member if they had voted for independence. That could not be 'guaranteed', which is why it was perfectly reasonable for Allen to say it the way he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM

I should add there is a perfectly valid reason why Allen used the word 'guarantee' there and it is connected with whether the EU would have accepted Scotland as a member if they had voted for independence. That could not be 'guaranteed', which is why it was perfectly reasonable for Allen to say it the way he did.

Yes, if his understanding of what he said is the same as your reading of it.
But if that was his intended meaning then it makes no sense of the immediately following query "How does that equate with what has happened since?".
That query seems to suggest that he understood it as a guarantee that Scotland would remain in the EU no matter what UK subsequently did.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 06:54 AM

SCOTLAND the BROKE according to an impact survey
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 08:41 AM

Be even more broke if they vote for independence.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/12200495/IFS-Scotland-to-get-billions-of-English-income-tax.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 08:55 AM

"Be even more broke if they vote for independence."
Just the plavvce to go for relianble information Iains - the mouthpiece of teh Tory Party
It's highly doubtful if Britain will be able to pay out that sort of money the way business is going
The Carillon crash, leaving behind a billion or so's worth of debts which will effect 30,000 firms, leaving many of them facing bankruptcy
Given the present non existence of British industry and the business predictions that it will take over a decade for the economy to steady after Brexit, waving promises such as those made to Scotland is nonsense
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 09:52 AM

Listening to Parliamenr debate on the Withdrawal Bill. Mike Gapes is talking about the problems of Anguilla which is a British Oversea Territory. While he is not a great speaker, the problems he is raising are highly significant. For example 36% of its national income is from the EU and there is no commitment to provide that from the UK. There is no airport, because it has relied one on Saint Martin (French & Dutch)


I think it fair to say that very few of us who voted Leave or Remain gave such places a passing thought. Gibraltar or the Falklands, perhaps, but not other places.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 10:54 AM

An interesting but brief snippet of an interview with Ruth Davidson, the Conservative Leader in Scotland and member of the Scottish Parliament. There looks to be a fuller interview on Border ITV tonight.
Clip

The clip is partway down the page.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 11:14 AM

and now Boris compounds the bus lie by claiming that the £350 million per week claim should have been even more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 11:20 AM

If that's what you were referring to, Raggytash, my apologies. That page won't load for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 11:28 AM

Its the "live" page on the guardian website, perhaps that's why it hasn't linked.

It is referring to Johnson latest claims about the money we pay to the EU.

It is also yet another glorious example of the in-fighting within the conservative party.

I will say one thing in favour of Ruth Davidson though, at least she has a sense of humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 11:52 AM

"As and when the cash becomes available – and it won’t until we leave – the NHS should be at the very top of the list,” said Johnson.

I sure Nigel and Keith will be at the forefront of those pointing out that is not a promise to give any prioritisation at all to the NHS.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM

We don't need to, you've just said it yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 12:07 PM

I said it because I recognise it to be so. However, I thought it helpful if you also agree it is a sentence designed to mislead the incautious. As you seem to. If so, I hope you take every opportunity to make that clear to anyone who you suspect is making the false assumption.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 12:31 PM

I agree that it is likely to be misunderstood by the incautious. But that does not mean that it is 'designed' to be so.
Some people's writing & speaking practices do not lead themselves to simple comprehension.
There are even some on here who will take that route, and when queried try to pass it off as irony, or whimsy. If the comments are allowed to stand, unchallenged, no one will ever be sure whether the poster really meant what they posted, or was being either ironic or whimsical.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 12:48 PM

More on the mis-information from Johnson.

Link

Although the lead paragraph refers to the labour partys complaint it goes on to reference conservative misgivings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 01:09 PM

I'll not challenge the 'designed' - ambiguity can be a matter of habit for a politician.

Let's look at another word in it: 'should'. This covers a wide spectrum from the 'meh' - it should, but I'm not that fussed and if it doesn't happen I'll shrug - through to the 'really should': Johnson is promising to use 'heart and nerve and sinew/To serve their turn long after they are gone' to ensure it happens if at all possible.

Where do you judge that statement to be? It seems very 'meh' from past experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 01:22 PM

it can be summed up by one simple phrase. Weasel words.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 01:59 PM

I believe the Labour party still has the official position of supporting brexit. Was this because they feared a wipeout at the polls.
Is this real politic or weasel words or that Labour simply cannot be trusted to be honest with their electorate?
It does not inspire confidence when even their diehard supporters in this forum freely admit they had to take the stated line because their very survival as a viable party depended on it.
I think the morality of an alley cat is many magnitudes higher that that of the Labour party.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 02:20 PM

I don't believe anyone who reads or listens to any media can honestly believe the conservative to have any morality or honesty. They'd sell their own grandmother.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 02:20 PM

Dave,
it can be summed up by one simple phrase. Weasel words.

No it can't Dave, or will you explain why it can?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 02:32 PM

I don't believe anyone who reads or listens to any media can honestly believe the conservative to have any morality or honesty. They'd sell their own grandmother.

That is an extreme view. I know lots of people who do believe in Conservative morality and honesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 02:40 PM

So, Keith, am I to assume you disagree with Nigel and I that Boris' statement "is not a promise to give any prioritisation at all to the NHS."?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 04:04 PM

Hoops David, Hoops

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 04:10 PM

Nicht durch die Reifen springen

DtG

(Thought I may try a different different language)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 05:02 PM

Nicht Raufen ? mit aus feur??

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 05:15 PM

Vorsprung durch Technik

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 05:33 PM

Leck mich am arsch.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 05:35 PM

Der Mond ist aufgegangen,
Die goldnen Sternlein prangen.
Am Himmel hell und klar;
Der Wald steht schwarz und schweiget,
Und aus den Wiesen steiget.
Der weiße Nebel wunderbar.

Nach Brexit , wahr oder nicht wahr

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 05:35 PM

My nipples are exploding with delight.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 05:45 PM

Mein Luftkissenfahrzeug ist voller Aale

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 05:45 PM

Bitte? entschuldige mich
ich habe diesen Tag in der Schule verpasst

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 05:50 PM

ach so
Meine Fluggeschwindigkeitsanzeige ist aus dem Fenster

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 05:56 PM

Fur Bwm
Pog Mo Thoin

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 06:04 PM

DtG
der Groschen ist gefallen

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 06:30 PM

I wonder if this could be called an extreme view ..........

Extreme?

Despicable certainly, can anyone defend this?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 06:34 PM

Nowt there, Raggytash.

Brexitores illegitimes non carborundum

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 06:42 PM

I'll try again...........


Despicable behaviour

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM

We have had 2600 posts to this thread and I cannot recall a single post that has contained any good news.

Perhaps those on the leave side could provide some ...............................


.......... even one or two would help.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 07:13 PM

Well fancy that. One of Keith's men making Naz Shah and Ken Livingstone looking positively saintly!

No good news on this thread? We need a cake recipe, and fast!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 02:41 AM

Kenny B - Auf Dem Boden, Lacht Mein Arsch Aus!

ADBLMAA isn't quite as catchy as ROTFLMAO though, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 02:53 AM

Well, there is some good news, even if it didn't make the thread earlier.

I am not saying that in an attempt to reverse the vote. What it means is the 'meaningful vote' can genuinely be meaningful, and what is more that vote could be unifying in a way that has escaped us up to now. If David Davis' team do manage to achieve something that is genuinely a good deal, the House can vote it so and most - by no means all, but most - remainers would be happy.   Equally, we have got rid of the take it or 'no deal' as the only options, so Parliament can decide to no deal or to stay based on whichever is the best interests of the country.

In short, the 'meaningful vote' allows us to move from a simple 'the people (who voted)said this, so we must do it even if we believe it damaging' to 'we have done everything possible to abide by that vote; now we act solely on what is in the best interests of the country'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 03:44 AM

We have had 2600 posts to this thread and I cannot recall a single post that has contained any good news.
Perhaps those on the leave side could provide some ...............................
.......... even one or two would help.

The problem is two-fold:
Firstly: What we would consider as 'good news' you may not.
Secondly: The good news cannot really be claimed until it is accomplished, and that will not be until we have completed the negotiation period, and either come to an agreement, or not.

Basically, Good news:
We are getting out of the EU.
We will take back control of our internationally agreed fishing grounds
We will not be expected to join the Euro
We will not expected to become part of a European army
We will massively reduce the payments we make to the EU.
We will show that democracy (literally: rule of the people) still exists
We will be free to trade with other nations without imposing a standardised list of tariffs intended to be protectionist of European interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:06 AM

We are getting out of the EU.
And losing all the benefits.

We will take back control of our internationally agreed fishing grounds
That's odd. We have just taken an 'historic step' to withdraw from international fishing agreement

We will not be expected to join the Euro
We never were anyway

We will not expected to become part of a European army
We never were anyway

We will massively reduce the payments we make to the EU.
See point 1. They could have been renogotiated from within anyway.

We will show that democracy (literally: rule of the people) still exists
It never went away.

We will be free to trade with other nations without imposing a standardised list of tariffs intended to be protectionist of European interests.
And buy sub-standard food and goods not subject to the controls we are used to.

Basically, a load of ...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:24 AM

DMcG,
So, Keith, am I to assume you disagree with Nigel and I that Boris' statement "is not a promise to give any prioritisation at all to the NHS."?

It is not such a promise, as you observed.
You may disagree with what he said, and it may prove not to be true, but there is nothing of the weasel in it. Dave made that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:24 AM

Firstly: What we would consider as 'good news' you may not.
Secondly: The good news cannot really be claimed until it is accomplished, and that will not be until we have completed the negotiation period, and either come to an agreement, or not.

I agree with that. There is a lot of subjective judgement on that on both sides.


Basically, Good news:
We are getting out of the EU. ... too general to attach much meaning. It is not in itself good or bad, it is all the detail that matters.


We will take back control of our internationally agreed fishing grounds
This is a very interesting one. It may or may not happen, but it is no simple matter. We have severely depleted our fishing fleets and the supporting facilities and it will take years to build them back up again. That could give us big problems in the meantime as we are talking investment with no short term return.



We will not be expected to join the Euro
... not an issue, we are opted out.

We will not expected to become part of a European army
... not an issue. We have a veto. And losing that veto makes an EU army more likely, not less.


We will massively reduce the payments we make to the EU. This one very much remains to be seen. Norway, I gather, pays more per capita for access to the market than we do. All the bluster about not paying anything at all have evaporated during the negotiations.
We will show that democracy (literally: rule of the people) still exists
Perhaps. Not that I am convinced it ever existed in the UK - hence the reform Acts, for example.   Our system is representative democracy, not plebiscite.


We will be free to trade with other nations without imposing a standardised list of tariffs intended to be protectionist of European interests
Again perhaps. One thing that people seem to overlook is that any trade agreement involves sacrificing some freedom in exchange for what as seen as a greater benefit. To take an utterly trivial example: The UK power supply runs at 50Hz (more or less) as does almost all the rest of the world. Having the freedom to run it at 100Hz is technically there, but we voluntarily relinquish it in the interests of getting access to all the world's equipment that is designed for the 50Hz. And such things happen in just about every international agreement to promise to do (or not do) certain things in exchange for benefits. The EU tariffs are an example of that: by co-operating at that level we believed be got greater benefits. Perhaps we no longer think that is the case, but it is a judgement, not a 'given', especially as we will have to sacrifice some degree of freedom to set up the new deals. They might, like the frequency of the power supply, be things we can 'sacrifice' without worrying very much. But it all remains to be seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM

I have tried English. I have tried German. This time I will try the most basic language I can think of.

Keith. Fuck off.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:52 AM

So, Keith, am I to assume you disagree with Nigel and I that Boris' statement "is not a promise to give any prioritisation at all to the NHS."?

It is not such a promise, as you observed.
You may disagree with what he said, and it may prove not to be true, but there is nothing of the weasel in it. Dave made that up

That's clear. So, as I suggested to Nigel, I assume you will be making sure that everyone you meet knows that it was not a promise if the topic arises?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:12 AM

DMcG, you can assume I will not knowingly misrepresent anything to anyone.

Dave, you are good at infantile abuse, but woefully inadequate in justifying your statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:14 AM

I have just checked the throwaway comment I made about Norway payments, and it is perhaps too complex to justify my remark. We would need to be clear that we risk comparing the cost of access that Norway pays with what we pay for access *plus everything else*.

So please strike that remark and replace it by 'we may still have to pay substantial amounts for access.'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:20 AM

SADGIT

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:22 AM

DMcG, you can assume I will not knowingly misrepresent anything to anyone

Good, but that is a different thing. I was talking about what happened when we overhear (or similar) someone else making the false assumption that it *was* a promise by Boris. Do we simply let them carry on in error, or do we point out the mistake?
Doing that not the same as actively misrepresenting it ourselves, but it is a sort of 'passive misrepresentation'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:29 AM

You may as well try to push butter up a porcupine's arse with a hot needle, McG.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:30 AM

You may as well try to push butter up a porcupine's arse with a hot needle, McG

Everyone should have a hobby.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:34 AM

What Teresa May has achieved so far ................. or not.


May's achievements to date

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 06:10 AM

DMcG - :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 09:18 AM

I have to say I have been impressed with Dominic Grieve throughout the debates this week. He has spoken with great clarity and considered insight.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:18 AM

We will take back control of our internationally agreed fishing grounds
This is a very interesting one. It may or may not happen, but it is no simple matter. We have severely depleted our fishing fleets and the supporting facilities and it will take years to build them back up again. That could give us big problems in the meantime as we are talking investment with no short term return.
The fact that we have a depleted fishing fleet does not cause a problem. We will be 'taking back control of our fishing grounds'. That does not have to mean we will fish them ourselves, but we will have control of any issue of fishing licences for them, and for how long those licences will be valid.

We will not be expected to join the Euro
... not an issue, we are opted out.
We will not expected to become part of a European army
... not an issue. We have a veto. And losing that veto makes an EU army more likely, not less.
We also had a good rebate. That was 'negotiated' away by Tony Blair. There was nothing to say that our vetoes were going to be permanent, especially as the EU mantra is 'ever closer union'.

We will be free to trade with other nations without imposing a standardised list of tariffs intended to be protectionist of European interests
Again perhaps. One thing that people seem to overlook is that any trade agreement involves sacrificing some freedom in exchange for what as seen as a greater benefit. To take an utterly trivial example: The UK power supply runs at 50Hz (more or less) as does almost all the rest of the world. Having the freedom to run it at 100Hz is technically there, but we voluntarily relinquish it in the interests of getting access to all the world's equipment that is designed for the 50Hz.
Historically it appears that UK was one of the first countries to standardise at 50Hz, so it's not us sacrificing freedom for standardisation, but others.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:25 AM

Well done Great Britain, we standardised the 50Hz Internationally agreed power supply rating, are we just wonderful.

We standardised many other things when Great Britain was a vast empire, and not all of them good, but we are no longer an Empire. We are a small country trying to make its way in the world.

Many people think we could do that better as part of a block of nations with a common cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:31 AM

You do realise that the 50Hz thing was a mere illustrative example that people in negotiations accept restrictions in return for benefits?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:34 AM

From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:34 AM
What Teresa May has achieved so far ................. or not.
May's achievements to date

Not exactly the height of news reporting is it?
The link goes to a Guardian article which gives a link to: "promising 39 billion pounds to the EU."
Unfortunately, when you follow the link it's about "Promising 50 billion pounds (or more) to the EU"
Maybe they don't even trust their own reporting . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:54 AM

You and I both know that the final figure has yet to be decided, and even then we will not know the full extent as other sums may or may not be added to that "final" figure.

Once again you have failed to offer anything remotely positive.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:10 AM

From: Raggytash
Once again you have failed to offer anything remotely positive.

In your opinion.

I provided a list. You have not commented on the list, only briefly on others comments.
I accept that we will have different ideas of what may be considered 'positives', but please stop claiming that we don't identify any.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:16 AM

I did not need to comment on your list, other people demonstrated quite admirably how erroneous it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:18 AM

The UK power supply runs at 50Hz (more or less) as does almost all the rest of the world.

North America and parts of Asia run at 60 Hz, FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:20 AM

Did you miss the bit that said "as does almost all the rest of the world"

Note the use of the word ALMOST.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:26 AM

Yes, bobad was aware of that. As it happens my father in law was an electirical engineer initially and later an economist with the World Bank. He was very closely involved in the creation of the U.K. National grid and latterly assisting other countries world wide to introduce similar systems and other major electrical provision systems under the World Bank auspices.

So while I have no direct involvement, I have heard a great deal at length about such systems!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:28 AM

"Many people think we could do that better as part of a block of nations with a common cause."

But a majority of people voted that we would be better off away from the EU. i.e.those with common sense. This is because they realise the "common cause" is but an unsubstantiated opinion and they vehemently disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:32 AM

The AC hum of 50 Hz in Europe is close to
the pitch of G1 = 48.99 Hz (49 Hz). The AC hum of 60 Hz in the U.S. is a minor third higher
close to the pitch of A1/B1 = 58.27 Hz (58 Hz).
So you can find out logically, whether a sound recording was made in Europe or in the U.S amongst others if you are really interested.

I doesn't depend in the least on Brexit, thank goodness, Deo Grati
However I wonder if the Trump administration will include a mandatory change in the next trade deal?
Just a thought .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 12:15 PM

Sorry, Iains. You say those with common sense voted to leave because they realise the common cause is an unsubstantiated opinion and yet you also say that all the predictions about what will happen are also just opinions. I think. Which is it to be, they voted to leave because of unsubstantiated opinions of in spite of unsubstantiated opinions?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 12:31 PM

No one expected any of today's or yesterday's amendments to be passed, but it is still depressing. A clause to say the government must assess the impact of no deal? Vote against: heavens above, we would rather just go on gut feel than have anyone think about it.

Assess environmental protection loss and produce a bill to be debated to make up for it if Parliament then so decides? Again, perish the thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 01:00 PM

a majority of people

? ?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 01:23 PM

? ?
Basic maths a bit of a struggle for you greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 02:11 PM

Dave the electorate cast their vote according to their beliefs. Now whether the belief is based on fact, fiction, or total fantasy is immaterial. To the individual it is based on their common sense. Sadly the remainers are easily swayed by the argument big is beautiful.(the bible according to Lord Brown BP) Whereas the thinking man prefers Schumacher's creed that small is beautiful and champions small, appropriate technologies that are believed to empower people ...
A Study of Economics As If People Mattered.
It is alo the greenest green you have ever seen. You know it makes sense to leave!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 02:28 PM

Sadly the remainers are easily swayed by the argument big is beautiful.(the bible according to Lord Brown BP) Whereas the thinking man prefers Schumacher's creed that small is beautiful and champions small, appropriate technologies that are believed to empower people

That, Iains, is a matter of opinion in itself and where we will have to agree to differ. You cannot class all people om one side or the other with such a broad statement. Each and every one of us has our reasons for voting for or against and those reasons, whether valid or not, have all been thought out. It is not a question of what the 'thinking man' believes. We all, believe it or not, think for ourselves and to say that only those who voted leave are capable of doing so does, to put it mildly, nothing but alienate people.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 03:19 PM

..." the thinking man..."

Whereas women can't think, are probably quite hysterical, need to be told by thinking men to "calm down dear," should know their place at the kitchen sink, lie back and think of England...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 03:30 PM

"vehemently disagree"

Really?

Any evidence to support the assertion that the people "vehemently disagree"

Highlighted in bold I may add!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 03:56 PM

can you subtract as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:01 PM

"Whereas women can't think, are probably quite hysterical, need to be told by thinking men to "calm down dear," should know their place at the kitchen sink, lie back and think of England..."

For a sandal wearing well educated scientist and shorts wearing ex teacher you hold some very outmoded sexist views. You should be ashamed of yourself!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:11 PM

fact, fiction, or total fantasy is immaterial.

Have you taken over for Sarah Huckabee Sanders, Inanes?

Spoken like a true Trumpista!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:12 PM

I can multiply, divide and add too Iains.

My question was to ask how you can know people "vehemently disagree".

I shall await your considered response with interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:24 PM

I was pleasantly surprised to read a Tory MP saying what many of us have said repeatedly on here.

That is the impact of Brexit will be felt more severely by the younger generation, that the effect on them will last for much longer than it will for us.

(Before you pipe up that I don't know that for certain, WE are all getting older, and in due course will shuffle off this mortal coil)

I think Justine Greening is to be commended for her stance.

Justine Greening

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:09 PM

There were many MPs, both leave and remain, and of several parties, who had clearly thought long and hard before they reached their view. But I am afraid during the debates the benches were fairly empty - probably less than one quarter of the people who voted for or against each amendment. That they vote on such a critical bill without bothering to listen to the debates is exactly the sort of thing that brings Parliament into disrepute.

I know it is always like that, and that they always say they have other important work that draws them away from the chamber, but whether you are a Remainer or Leaver, I hope you agree there are few things more significant than this bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:33 PM

" how you can know people "vehemently disagree".
Simples: They were passionate enough about the outcome that they got off their arse's and toddled off down to the polling station and voted.
I have no idea what delusions motivated the remainers and of course 27% of the electorate could not be bothered to crawl out of bed for the event. It is highly amusing that by some distortion of logic the remainers would like to sweep up all the no-shows and put them in their camp. I would have thought they had sufficient dross already, but their is no accounting for taste, is there?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:39 PM

while i have always thought that brexit won't happen because big business don't like the idea, i'm starting to change my mind. big business. the rich. neo-liberals or tories or whatever do not have a clue what they are doing anymore. or why they are doing it. or why they are pretending to - or pretending not to - do anything.
i reckon that labour are right - they may well win power not because of their own virtues but because of the spectacular ineptitude of the tories and the crazy economic situation we have arrived at.

so, if labour are to be in power we need to be able to resist the ultra capitalist pressures of the EU. we retain workers' and human rights but retain the power to write our own rules about restraining the corrupt big business privatisers.

i'm not quite becoming a brexiter but am considering it. socially and in terms of peace etc it's a complete nonsense. still, interesting times for us socialists

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM

"Whereas women can't think, are probably quite hysterical, need to be told by thinking men to "calm down dear," should know their place at the kitchen sink, lie back and think of England..."

For a sandal wearing well educated scientist and shorts wearing ex teacher you hold some very outmoded sexist views. You should be ashamed of yourself!

You're the sexist. The bloke who lionised "the thinking man." Jesus Christ, in this day and age, "the thinking MAN." I'm the bloke calling you out. Calm down, dear!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 08:18 PM

Well, Pete, I'm not easily taken in by films, but I went to see Darkest Hour last night. It fired me up enough to spend a couple of hours at home afterwards, checking up on the veracity or otherwise of the yarn. Right, some liberties were definitely taken, but... I'm no Churchill fan. My great Uncle Jimmy died uselessly, aged nineteen, at Gallipoli in 1915. His name is on a plaque, spelled wrong, in Salford Cathedral. He's somewhere on the Helles Memorial, but I'm damned if I can track that down. He has no grave. How he might have changed my life had he been around when I was a nipper. To some extent, Winston might have been responsible for his death, who knows. But Churchill was depicted as standing almost alone, politically, against Nazi tyranny, when his compatriots might have sold out the whole of occupied Europe in order to save the Empire. Not bad, I thought, for an avowed Empire man... The EEC was founded in order to promote free trade among the countries that had been perennially and damagingly at war and to ensure that war in Europe never happened again. That was achieved, eventually, not just by free trade but, eventually, by insisting that member states were democratic and abided always by the rule of law. Democracies do not go to war with each other, and so it's proved. Dunno how old you are Pete, but I was born in 1951 and have never been called up to fight in a bloody war and there's no prospect that my one-and-only beloved son will be either. That'll do me. The EU has a bloated bureaucracy and all that, as well as some bloody silly conventions apropos of agriculture and fisheries. But we can best fight these absurdities by staying in and making the argument (always remembering that the UK agrees with 95% of EU laws anyway and actively disagrees with just 2% of them), and remembering that we have considerable influence as one of the largest members. When you come to think of it, if you really want to see a democratic deficit you only have to look at the way the referendum campaign was run and how the Tories have tried to sidestep democracy ever since. It makes the EU look like a bunch of fluffy bunnies. Stay and fight!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 03:25 AM

From: Raggytash
I was pleasantly surprised to read a Tory MP saying what many of us have said repeatedly on here.

That is the impact of Brexit will be felt more severely by the younger generation, that the effect on them will last for much longer than it will for us.

I don't believe she was agreeing with you. She doesn't appear to have used the word "impact" which would have negative implications, just to have made the obvious comment that Brexit will have a longer lasting effect on the younger generation than on the older.

For those who haven't accessed the link, the BBC quote her as saying:
"The bottom line is that looking ahead, if Brexit doesn't work for young people in our country in the end it will not be sustainable.

When they take their place here they will seek to improve or undo what we've done and make it work for them.

So we do absolutely have a duty in this House to look ahead and ensure that whatever we get is sustainable and works for them"


The emphases are mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 04:24 AM

I saw on BBC News this morning that The Praying Mantis is in France for meeting with Macron, wherein she will sign an agreement for the U.K. to increase the number of migrants it accepts. All contrary to the main thrust of the BrexShit campaign, of course, which depended heavily on racism and xenophobia to bamboozle the feeble-minded into voting 'Leave'.

Presumably, in the eyes of many BrexShit-Buffoons, this makes her a 'traitor' who should "Get behind are (sic) cuntry (sic) or be arrested, marched out, and shot" (the judgment passed on me by a significant number of BrexShit-Buffoons on various Internet forums for having the temerity to continue to oppose their insanity, and to support our remaining in the EU).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 04:27 AM

A brave face, Nigel Justine Greening's speech was an undermining one which even drew an official Downing Street riposte. May has made the fundamental error of failing to keep an enemy close. Now Justine is pissing into the tent, to put it crudely.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 04:49 AM

"It makes the EU look like a bunch of fluffy bunnies."

If only!!!!

Be interesting to see if future history proves you right. My belief is that your fluffy bunnies will turn out to be more akin to wolves in drag.

"But we can best fight these absurdities by staying in and making the argument (always remembering that the UK agrees with 95% of EU laws anyway and actively disagrees with just 2% of them), and remembering that we have considerable influence as one of the largest members."

Wishful thinking at best. The reality would suggest total delusion.
Why else would people wish to leave such a cosy little club?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 05:45 AM

"I don't believe she was agreeing with you. She doesn't appear to have used the word "impact" which would have negative implications, just to have made the obvious comment that Brexit will have a longer lasting effect on the younger generation than on the older"

The word impact does not mean negative. If someone knocked on my door this morning and said here's a million quid it would have an impact on my life ............ a good impact.

However I think Brexit will have a negative impact on all our lives, we're seeing some of the effects already, (dearer food, petrol, diesel, electric, gas etc) and those effects will be felt by the younger people for longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 06:00 AM

We have fully agreed with 95% of all EU laws, whether that suits your case or not, a fact which I've given the figures for several times and which you can easily check, and, of course, they are not imposed by some distant, alien power but are laws in which we have played an influential part in drawing up and modifying. Once we leave, as a trading partner we will have to abide by laws in which we will no longer have a say. There is no EU army because the UK has vetoed it, and while we remain a member, there never will be. There may well be an EU army once we leave. In my view an EU army would be a very bad thing. By leaving, we are losing influence over big decisions that will still affect us. In other words, we are losing control in many important areas. Ironic, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 06:13 AM

We may have had an even greater impact in European affairs had our elected representatives there taken the trouble to partake in proceeding.

Out of 746 MEP's Nigel Farage has taken next to bottom spot in attendance. The only person with less attendance is Brian Cowley who is paralysed from the waist down and has spent much time in hospital.

In fact UKip in general have a pretty poor record.


UKip Record

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 06:57 AM

Just to show how delusional I am, according to our sage friend Iains:

The British government has voted against EU laws 2% of the time since 1999.

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix.

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

This is counting votes in the EU Council of Ministers, which passes most EU laws jointly with the European Parliament. [Source: Full Fact]

Of course, that's the bare bones of it. The numbers alone can't suggest the relative importance of each of the laws and they don't include laws that were not passed, in many cases quite likely because we objected. And in no way can the stats be taken to suggest that the laws are impositions over which we've had no influence. In fact, the UK, as one of the largest and most influential member states, plays a significant part in drawing up the laws. Finally, no EU law is ever imposed by decree by unelected officials. Only elected representatives can draw up and pass laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:08 AM

" In fact, the UK, as one of the largest and most influential member states, plays a significant part in drawing up the laws."

Had your argument any merit there would have been no need for brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:12 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Only elected representatives can draw up and pass laws

Elected representatives cannot INITIATE legislation. They can only vote on stuff the UNELECTED Commision allow them to vote on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:45 AM

C'mon Stanron, don't upset Steve Shaw by presenting facts.
I know that, and you know that, but it is an 'inconvenient truth'

However, it is confirmed by The EU

How does the legislative process work?

A Member of the European Parliament, working in one of the parliamentary committees, draws up a report on a proposal for a 'legislative text' presented by the European Commission, the only institution empowered to initiate legislation. The parliamentary committee votes on this report and, possibly, amends it. When the text has been revised and adopted in plenary, Parliament has adopted its position. This process is repeated one or more times, depending on the type of procedure and whether or not agreement is reached with the Council.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:51 AM

Had your argument any merit there would have been no need for brexit

It has and there isn't! :-)

Elected representatives cannot INITIATE legislation. They can only vote on stuff the UNELECTED Commision allow them to vote on.

In other words, unelected representatives cannot pass laws. Only the elected representatives can do that. Which is what I thought was said.

Different language syndrome?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:59 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:51 AM

Had your argument any merit there would have been no need for brexit

It has and there isn't! :-)

Elected representatives cannot INITIATE legislation. They can only vote on stuff the UNELECTED Commision allow them to vote on.

In other words, unelected representatives cannot pass laws. Only the elected representatives can do that. Which is what I thought was said.

Different language syndrome?

Stanron (& I) were quoting Steve Shaw, not you.

Different person syndrome?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:00 AM

Not the case, Stanron. The elected representatives can oblige the Commission to initiate matters which may then be legislated on by them. Bet you can't give me an example of when the Commission has outright refused such a request. In any event, the elected representatives can throw out or modify the Commission's suggestions. Yes there is a bureaucracy. We've got one of those too. The leave campaign has made great play about how undemocratic the EU is supposed to be, yet only elected members can pass the laws that bind us. I'd suggest to you that the biggest democratic deficit of all is created when voter turnout for European elections is so low. And no prizes for guessing one of the main drivers of that deficit: why, the constant whingeing of eurosceptics about how remote and undemocratic the EU is, about gravy trains, about ever-closer union, about the United States of Europe to come (which, oddly, never seems to arrive)... yep, that talk is precisely how you you piss off the voters and make them think they can't have any influence, so they don't bother to vote. The attempt at creating a self-fulfilling prophesy, I'd say. And sheer hypocrisy when tied to claims about how undemocratic the EU is supposed to be. There's nothing more undemocratic than an election in which the true situation is serially misrepresented to voters who then don't turn out to vote. Well, apart from referendum campaigns run by two sets of liars, I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:03 AM

There is also the question of where the Commission gets the ideas for legislation from in the first place. For what it is worth, Wikipedia says "... the Commission frequently introduces legislation at the behest of the Council or upon the suggestion of Parliament ...'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:05 AM

It is a different language, Dave. The three of them are clinging for dear life to the untruth, believed still by millions of Brits I'd suggest, that an unelected bureaucracy in Brussels imposes laws on us. The three of them are just about falling short of telling us how the draconian EU has told us how straight cucumbers have to be or what colour is allowed for duck eggs. Credit to them for that at least, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:08 AM

That's correct, DMcG. And the challenge remains: give us one example of one of those requests that has ever been refused outright by the Commission. If there have been any, let's discuss why.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:18 AM

I'll continue that quote I gave above from the EU's own site. Just in case anyone can be bothered to read and understand it:

In the adoption of legislative acts, a distinction is made between the ordinary legislative procedure (codecision), which puts Parliament on an equal footing with the Council, and the special legislative procedures, which apply only in specific cases where Parliament has only a consultative role.

On certain questions (e.g. taxation) the European Parliament gives only an advisory opinion, (the 'consultation procedure'). In some cases the Treaty provides that consultation is obligatory, being required by the legal base, and the proposal cannot acquire the force of law unless Parliament has delivered an opinion. In this case the Council is not empowered to take a decision alone.

Parliament has a power of political initiative

It can ask the Commission to present legislative proposals for laws to the Council.

It plays a genuine role in creating new laws, since it examines the Commission's annual programme of work and says which laws it would like to see introduced

On the 'consultation procedure' that site also states:
The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, or propose amendments to it. The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament's opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it.
So, effectively, Parliament's opinion is advisory only.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:18 AM

" In fact, the UK, as one of the largest and most influential member states, plays a significant part in drawing up the laws."

Had your argument any merit there would have been no need for brexit.

It's not an argument. It's a rock-solid fact. The UK enjoys the third-largest voting weight, i.e., voting influence, in the EU. Only Germany and France, both with larger populations, have more weight. By the way, there IS no need for Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:21 AM

All you're doing is describing the bureaucracy, Nigel. You are not demonstrating in any way that laws are imposed undemocratically. Put as simply as possible, they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 09:25 AM

Stanron (& I) were quoting Steve Shaw, not you

Well, to quote Keith A's words, if you don't want someone else to comment on your conversation, stick to PMs.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 09:50 AM

There is a slight but important difference Dave, my posts where SPECIFICALLY addressed to one person.

Neither Nigel or Stanron nominated anyone in particular in their posts, so anyone is free to respond.

Simples ............

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 10:10 AM

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 12:48 PM

"You are not demonstrating in any way that laws are imposed undemocratically. Put as simply as possible, they are not."

and the other leg has bells on!




https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/859297/Brexit-news-Juncker-EU-plans-European-Social-Security-Number-Labour-Authority


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/britain-is-better-off-out-of-jean-claude-junckers-eu-superstate/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 02:15 PM

Teribus, do you read anything other than pro-Brexit Tory Shit-Rags?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 02:40 PM

Macron's comments today:

Please allow me to be very clear. I'm here neither to punish nor to reward. I want to make sure that the single market is preserved because that is very much at the heart of the European Union.

So the choice is on the British side, not on my side. They can have no differentiated access to financial services. If you want access to the single market, including the financial services, be my guest. But it means that you need to contribute to the budget and acknowledge European jurisdiction. Such are the rules and we know this is the system already in place for Norway.

If you want a trade access, it will cover everything, but then it is not full access to the single market and to financial services. Otherwise it's closer to the situation of Canada. We have some trade agreements which allow access to all services, be they financial or others, access as well to any industry sector, but not the same level of relationship as if you were a member of the single market. And there shall be no hypocrisy in this respect, otherwise it will not work. Or we would destroy the single market and its coherence.

So, it's simple. I would not want to exclude any sector in the trade agreement to come. The negotiations will be led by Michel Barnier. But it does not mean that the access it will allow will be equivalent to [being] a member of the single market. Otherwise you can choose between Norway, or being the equivalent of a current member of the European Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 02:46 PM

Backwoodsman.
Do try to post something sensible.
Your last post is nothing but a pathetic attempt to troll, and you appear barely capable of doing that properly!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 03:09 PM

"Your last post is nothing but a pathetic attempt to troll, and you appear barely capable of doing that properly!"

No, Teribus, it was a serious question. But, compared to an expert Troll like you, I suppose I'm not very good at it - I haven't had your long, persistent experience.

So, answer the question - do you read anything other than pro-BrexShit Tory Shitrags? The links you provide and the brainwashed Tory-bollocks you spout would suggest not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 04:08 PM

Out of order Iains, Backwoodsman gave a coherent argument, Trolls are people who just snipe and run away, a bit like your comment in fact.

French president Emmanuel Macron has understandably said today that the UK will get no special deal unless we play ball with the EU.


Macron

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 05:25 PM

Not only did you link to two right-wing sources, they had absolutely nothing to do with the point that you were allegedly refuting in that post. In case you didn't quite catch it, Iains, here it is in very simple words: the EU does NOT impose laws on member countries via edicts from unelected bureaucrats in Brussels or anywhere else. All laws are discussed and ratified, or not, by elected representatives of member states. In those discussions, the bigger your country, the bigger your influence, and, in that regard, the UK is in the top three countries. Not one of your rude interventions today has addressed that very simple point. Yet you call someone else a troll. You give every indication that your understanding of the issues surrounding brexit is superficial and third-hand.

Please desist from responding with even more abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 05:41 PM

Macron has simply laid on the line that we can't be in the single market unless we allow free movement and adhere to all EU trading laws and standards. Much the same would apply even if we simply had access. Even if we agreed to either, we would no longer have any influence over changes to laws and regulations. There can be no special consideration for our services sector either, which just happens to be four-fifths of our economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 05:47 PM

It is interesting to compare Macron's stance with what Dominic Greive said on Tuesday in the early stages of the Withdrawal Bill 2nd reading:


"Another factor influenced my decision not to table another amendment and divide the House on this matter. Realistically, although I realise that some may not like this, in leaving the European Union, we are about to embark on a lengthy period of transitional arrangements during which, in my view - I might be wrong - every jot and tittle of EU law will continue to apply to this country in every conceivable respect, except that we will no longer share in its making in the institutions of the European Union. I am afraid that I think that is where we are going; the alternative, of course, is that we are jumping off the cliff."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:06 PM

If Macron's stance prevails, and there is no good reason why it won't, either we stay in the single market or we fall off the cliff. If we stay in the single market the referendum was a farce - we will still enjoy free movement of people, the termination of which was the main tenet of the leave campaign. If we don't, we're doomed. Not even the little Englanders will be able to save us from floating, miserable and friendless, into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 02:23 AM

When Dominic Grieve said "in my view - I might be wrong" he reminded me of an asymmetry in this whole palaver. He might be wrong, I might be wrong, any one of us might be wrong. We are talking of the future, which is ultimately unknown.

Remainers have, by and large, been worried that things won't work, that cost's will go up, that trade deals can't be struck... In short, being wrong means the UK will have a better future than they fear.

Leavers, on the other hand, assume everything will work out, so any occasion they are wrong means the country is in a worse state.

I would like to hear from Nigel, Iains, Keith and anyone else what their strategy is if things don't go as they hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 02:32 AM

No problem, DMcG, the unicorns will make everything right.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:43 AM

Remainers have, by and large, been worried that things won't work, that cost's will go up, that trade deals can't be struck... In short, being wrong means the UK will have a better future than they fear.

Leavers, on the other hand, assume everything will work out, so any occasion they are wrong means the country is in a worse state.

Leavers do not 'assume everything will work out', but we are at least optimistic that our country will have a good future once we are self-governing once more.

Remainers were previously working on the assumption that staying in the EU would not cause us further problems with further integration toward 'ever closer union'.
Fortunately they will not get the opportunity to see how that would have worked out. But if they had won the referendum I am the one who would now be worrying about our future.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:55 AM

"Optimism" will get us everywhere, won't it, Nigel?

Would you care to tell us how this "ever closer union" could ever be achieved without this country's willing participation in whatever process you have in mind that would lead to it? What new laws would be passed that we would be helpless to influence? Or veto? It's another of those wish-washy leave thingies, isn't it, a bit like "taking back control" and "the United States of Europe" and "laws imposed on us by unelected Brussels bureaucrats?"

So you're "optimistic." Thing is, DMcG asked you what your strategy is, not how you feel after this morning's cappuccino.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

"But if they had won the referendum I am the one who would now be worrying about our future."
As distinct from ignoring and making excuses for the problems that have already arising and are most certain to continue, do you mean Nigel
There is enough practical evidence available now to show that the decision was an utter disaster, not least the fact that the populism used to win Brexit opened the door to Trump and the re-emergence of fascism in Europe
Brexit lad the way
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:19 AM

There is enough practical evidence available now to show that the decision was an utter disaster,

No there is not, and you can not blame Brexit for Trump or the rise of the Far Right in EU.

Many countries, e.g. Japan, Canada, S.Korea, Taiwan, manage without being part pf a political union. They have problems and deal with them as they arise just as we used to.

There is a whole world outside the nursery.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:20 AM

From: Steve Shaw

"Optimism" will get us everywhere, won't it, Nigel?

Would you care to tell us how this "ever closer union" could ever be achieved without this country's willing participation in whatever process you have in mind that would lead to it? What new laws would be passed that we would be helpless to influence? Or veto? It's another of those wish-washy leave thingies, isn't it, a bit like "taking back control" and "the United States of Europe" and "laws imposed on us by unelected Brussels bureaucrats?"

So you're "optimistic." Thing is, DMcG asked you what your strategy is, not how you feel after this morning's cappuccino.

Optimism will often get us further than pessimism.
As for my 'strategy', I have none. I'm not a politician.
Come to that, I don't feel I need a strategy. I am confident that this country is strong enough to survive, and thrive, outside the constraints of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM

Johnson now talks about wanting to build a bridge to France! A 22 mile bridge across one of the busiest seaways in the world no less. Am I alone in thinking this could be an attempt to divert attention away from the fiasco that is Brexit.


A bridge

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM

Ah, two little Englanders in a row, neither remembering that both this country and the big world out there have changed radically since we last floated alone as the sick man of Europe.

Nigel, your strategy-less optimism mindset equals complacency. Seeing all the signs and being pessimistic leads to a mindset that is predicated on a sense of urgency. The dicks who are leading our negotiations have yet to see that the EU is not going to give us a favourable, bespoke deal. They are optimistic just like you. And complacent. Oh yes, there will be fudges that will be sold to us as great victories. We've already had one of those. It's been a long Christmas. Pessimism when you're standing on the crumbling edge of a cliff might just spur you to take some evasive action.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:54 AM

Has Boris declared that the French will pay?

I'd love to know how come Keith and Nigel are not absolutely shitting themselves at the very thought that we are heading for brexit with May, Johnson, Gove and Davis at the helm. I mean, Christ on a bike...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:12 AM

IRISH PM Leo Varadkar feels sorry for British WW2 veterans over Brexit.

The Dublin chief claimed Tommies who stormed the Normandy beaches on D-Day were doing so “for European values”.

Christ on a bike... or for supposed historical accuracy perhaps it should be on a donkey!

The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler. Some of us are concerned the un-elected bureaucrats might be toddling off down the road to a similar nightmare.

The lessons of history are never learnt by some, and some apparently cannot learn history especially that varadar character.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM

We've already had one of those. It's been a long Christmas. Pessimism when you're standing on the crumbling edge of a cliff might just spur you to take some evasive action.
So you criticise my lack of strategy.
What 'evasive action' are you taking? (if you're right that this cliff is crumbling)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM

I'd love to know how come Keith and Nigel are not absolutely shitting themselves at the very thought that we are heading for brexit with May, Johnson, Gove and Davis at the helm. I mean, Christ on a bike...

If you must use nautical metaphors, it is very difficult to have four 'at the helm'.
However, better that than remaining in the EU. A stance you continually fail to grasp!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

So, having campaigned to sail HMS United Kingdom away from the EU without even a chart or a compass, that monumental Shit-For-Brains, Bozo Johnson, is proposing we build a cross-channel Bridge!

WTF? You couldn't make it up!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

We are making the argument on sane, solid criteria, Nigel, trying to get the blinkers off the millions who were hoodwinked by xenophobic lies and vacuous fiscal promises. Stage One is to get the referendum decision abandoned. Stage Two, if Stage One fails, is out of our hands. And out of yours, as you'll see. Nearly half a billion of them against sixty million of us. They'll survive quite well without our already-weak economy and with large sections of what used to be our services sector shifted to Paris and Berlin. Never mind. Rule Britannia! Narrower and narrower WILL our bounds be set!

The lessons of history, Iains, were what set the European project on its way after WW1 and WW2, the aim being to prevent Hitlerism from ever holding sway in Europe again and to replace it very firmly with international cooperation in trade and free movement and insistence on democracy and the rule of law in every member state. It's worked so far. No third pan-European war and no prospect of one on the horizon. So much for your Hitler allusion, eh? Of course, to learn the lessons of history you have to know some history in the first place. Would you like me to recommend some textbooks to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:49 AM

"The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler."

"Back then" the European countries about to be invaded by Hitler, such as Poland, Norway, France, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, etc., all had "values" very different from those of Hitler. They weren't all populated by anarchistic savages with no values, believe it or not. Your remark is vacuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:08 AM

"The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler."

"Back then" the European countries about to be invaded by Hitler, such as Poland, Norway, France, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, etc., all had "values" very different from those of Hitler. They weren't all populated by anarchistic savages with no values, believe it or not. Your remark is vacuous.

Read it a little more carefully.
Iain's statement about Varadkar The Dublin chief claimed Tommies who stormed the Normandy beaches on D-Day were doing so 'for European values'.

At the time of the Normandy invasion those countries were not 'about to be invaded'. They had already been overrun.
perhaps you need to read a little more history rather than suggesting others should!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:39 AM

Don't be so bloody stupid, Nigel. My comment was not linked to his Normandy beaches point, which came two paragraphs earlier in his post. Before, during and after they were invaded, all those countries had "values" completely at variance with Hitler's. The clear suggestion in his remark was that the only "values" prevailing at the time were Hitler's. Read it again and keep your silly insults to yourself. And consider for a moment exactly who it is you are defending. Read his last two days' posts in this thread for example. Looks like it's about time you reset some of your own values.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:45 AM

An interesting article in todays Guardian giving a European perspective. I think the most telling paragraph which applies to some on this site is:

"Much like Donald Trump, the Brexiteers have proven themselves immune to information or insight that does not meet their emotional needs. This must be why they continue to hope and insist that in order to avoid this proliferation of new barriers to trade, the EU will relent and allow Britain to have its cake and eat it – to forget about the obligations of EU membership while continuing to enjoy its many advantages.

This simply will not happen."

The remainder of the article can be found here:
Link

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:57 AM

Don't be so bloody stupid, Nigel. My comment was not linked to his Normandy beaches point, which came two paragraphs earlier in his post. Before, during and after they were invaded, all those countries had "values" completely at variance with Hitler's. The clear suggestion in his remark was that the only "values" prevailing at the time were Hitler's. Read it again and keep your silly insults to yourself. And consider for a moment exactly who it is you are defending. Read his last two days' posts in this thread for example. Looks like it's about time you reset some of your own values.

Iain's post was:
IRISH PM Leo Varadkar feels sorry for British WW2 veterans over Brexit.
The Dublin chief claimed Tommies who stormed the Normandy beaches on D-Day were doing so 'for European values'.
Christ on a bike... or for supposed historical accuracy perhaps it should be on a donkey!
The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler. Some of us are concerned the un-elected bureaucrats might be toddling off down the road to a similar nightmare.
The lessons of history are never learnt by some, and some apparently cannot learn history especially that varadar character.

The comment about European values 'then' must relate to a particular time, already mentioned in the discussion, so places 'then' as d-day.
So you were responding to a comment about D-Day as if the countries had not yet been attacked.
I'm not being insulting, nor am I supporting Iains. I'm pointing out the total lack of logic in some of the arguments you are presenting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:09 AM

I find it rather strange that the Leave supporters on here will gladly discuss anything but the subject matter of the thread.

Talk about Churchill, Hitler, the events of the 1930's and 40's are not relevant to changes happening to 21st Century Europe in the midst of Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:35 AM

From: Raggytash
I find it rather strange that the Leave supporters on here will gladly discuss anything but the subject matter of the thread.

Talk about Churchill, Hitler, the events of the 1930's and 40's are not relevant to changes happening to 21st Century Europe in the midst of Brexit.
I seem to remember that it was frequent off-topic comments by remainers that encouraged you to start a whole new thread on 'Football'

As for sticking to the subject matter of the thread, we are not yet 'post Brexit' so subject matter will be a little sparse (or based on predictions and suppositions)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:43 AM

What a load of utter tosh, Nigel. That is a completely pointless and misdirected nitpick over a point that was perfectly well made. Not once have you berated Iains for any of his brainless and abusive posts, yet you nitpick mine in order to defend him and try to wrongfoot me. Yes you are clearly supporting him. You make a big thing about a tiny technicality (that changes nothing about the substantive issue to hand in any case) that you picked up in my post yet say nothing about the blatant nonsense in his. And your stalking predilection is returning. Get your priorities right and reset your own values, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:57 AM

From: Steve Shaw
What a load of utter tosh, Nigel. That is a completely pointless and misdirected nitpick over a point that was perfectly well made. Not once have you berated Iains for any of his brainless and abusive posts, yet you nitpick mine in order to defend him and try to wrongfoot me. Yes you are clearly supporting him. You make a big thing about a tiny technicality (that changes nothing about the substantive issue to hand in any case) that you picked up in my post yet say nothing about the blatant nonsense in his. And your stalking predilection is returning. Get your priorities right and reset your own values, Nigel.

Usual response when shown to be in error, start claiming to be a victim, and insult others.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 10:15 AM

You couldn't make me a victim in a million years. You are making yourself a victim by allying yourself to Iains' ridiculous notions, about which you never say anything but, instead, prefer to pick up others on piffling little technicalities (which, in this case, doesn't apply anyway). Now let's have a little looksee at where we are on this. Your mate Iains makes this comment, in a sentence of its own, TWO PARAGRAPHS away from the bit about Normandy beaches:

"The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler."

Did you attend school, Nigel, where they told you that when you start a new paragraph it's because you are starting to make a new, separate point? And Hitler, dear chap, was around big-time from 1933 to 1945. Who are you to extrapolate from that bare little sentence about the precise intended timing of "back then?" He was attempting to "impose his values" all through that period, on his own people, via propaganda on countries he had yet to invade and by repression and aggression on those he had invaded. And one more thing. You incorrectly upbraid me on that point yet have nothing, NOTHING, to say about Iains' bonkers assertion that he fears that the EU is taking us down a path steered by Hitler's values (and that's only one out of many of the daft things he's said in this thread). By your fruits do we know thee, Nigel. You may think it's infra dig to admit that you're in hock with him, and who would blame you for that, but it's as plain as the nose on your face from your postings that you and he are in it together. Get a grip, Nigel, and just behave yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM

Incidentally, Nigel, I noticed that when you "quoted" Iains' post in full you closed up his double-spacings between paragraphs. Now I wonder why a man with your attention to piffling detail would do that. Would it by any chance be because you wanted to make it look like the points in the paragraphs weren't quite as separated as they actually were? All in the one paragraph, like?

You've boxed yourself in here, Nigel. You really are better than this. Just move on, old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:56 AM

Having made a complete fool of himself he now pulls the schoolmaster act and starts to correct grammar. He has a short memory.
I will refresh it:

"From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 04:20 PM

Having your grammar/spelling/punctuation corrected is very annoying, but the beauty of it is that the person correcting you is invariably guilty of much more of said inelegance than you are"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 01:04 PM

I haven't corrected any grammar! What are you on about? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 01:10 PM

Optimism will often get us further than pessimism.
As for my 'strategy', I have none. I'm not a politician.
Come to that, I don't feel I need a strategy.

That's one area we disagree. You do not need a strategy to solve the world, but I think we all need a strategy to explain why we voted as we did to our children and grandchildren and so on if it doesn't work out. No need to tell us how you would handle it, and believe me I hope as much as you do that this will not come to pass.   But to say you don't need to have thought about it? I disagree. And I am not sure "I feared something worse" will be enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 01:50 PM

=I haven't corrected any grammar! What are you on about? :-)"

Were you not drivelling on mindlessly about paragraphs?

Here is some info on paragraphs to aid you in the future when looking for thread distraction topics:

Example: English grammar is a complex topic that covers a range of information. At the "word" level, one must learn about parts of speech. At the "sentence" level, topics like sentence structure, subject/verb agreement, and clauses must be explored. The rules governing punctuation use are also a part of "sentence" level grammar. Once a person starts writing larger piece, he or she must also learn about paragraph structure and organization. All of these rules define and describe how to write English correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM

'Ave a word in Nigel's shell-like, Iains. 'Twas he who "adjusted" your post, not I. I merely picked up on the fact that he'd done it, and done it quite likely for nefarious purposes, who knows. Now if it's all right with you I'm wanting to get back to the disaster aka brexit. Over and out with you on this one. I find you're not really worth it. You're way too jealous.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:10 PM

Incidentally, it's a shame that your quoted guru on the writing of good English can't actually, er, write good English. In the section you put in bold I spotted at least three basic errors, thus:

Example: English grammar is a complex topic that covers a range of information. At the "word" level, one must learn about parts of speech. At the "sentence" level, topics like [like?] sentence structure, subject/verb agreement, [any idea what that comma's doing there?] and clauses must be explored. The rules governing punctuation use are also a part of "sentence" level grammar. Once a person starts writing [missing article! larger piece, he or she must also learn about paragraph structure and organization. All of these rules define and describe how to write English correctly.

Just thought I'd mention it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:12 PM

Hmm. Missing article, missing close bracket!

Subject: RE: BS: Pos"t Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM

Well we won't have to worry about things like this after Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:30 PM

"Your mate Iains makes this comment, in a sentence of its own, TWO PARAGRAPHS away from the bit about Normandy beaches:"

The only specific time period mentioned is D Day. Now who was in charge of most of europe at this period of time? On D day only a few beach heads were held by the allies. Therefore to belabour the point for absolute clarity, most of Europe was under the control of the Nazi party at this time. Why deliberately introduce red herrings? Would you like some history books? For a well educated scientist I would have thought you might have learnt a few dates and be able to join a few dots in order to link events to a logical timeframe.
Perhaps if you ask Dave the gnome nicely he will be able to educate you, he being of Polish ancestry like.

I prefer to regard my line spacings as an aid to clarity. This is to aid those such as your goodself, but in your case it is obviously a lost cause. You may call them paragraphs if you wish, some may argue the point. I care not a whit either way. It is a device largely on a par with using indents or bullet points


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5367307/irish-pm-leo-varadkar-infuriates-leavers-after-suggesting-he-pities-british-ww2-veterans-o

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:02 PM

Iains, Nigel,

Have you anything to say on the issue of Brexit? Over the past few weeks I have linked to numerous newspaper articles on the subject.

I cannot recall any post either of you have made in response to those articles.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:50 PM

Raggytash. I also construct numerous links to offer support to the points I make. However it is a failing of many on here to look at the source provider(eg CNN) and then promptly rubbish the content. For the most part supposed facts can easily be checked. A political story will be reported by left, right and the center with the associated bias provided as a freebie.
However when it comes to Brexit the argument revolves around a total unknown, With so many intangibles being thrown into the air having heated arguments is rather pointless. The entire proposition is in a state of flux and quite honestly having heated arguments over hypothetical scenarios is a waste of time. Leave and remain are entrenched positions on here and unlikely to change without someone making huge concessions and I consider that unlikely. The two sides are never going to agree and if the postings exceed 10000 nothing will have changed.
I read your links but obviously they are chosen to back up your position. The Guardian is very good at presenting biased opinions as facts. Many on here present opinion as facts. Some of us make it a point to carefully discriminate between the two, others are more "careless".
   I could respond to your links in the way others do and rubbish the source but I would regard that as a cop out.
Below is a typical example:

"Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 02:15 PM

Teribus, do you read anything other than pro-Brexit Tory Shit-Rags?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:01 PM

Usual response when shown to be in error, start claiming to be a victim, and insult others.

Spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:21 PM

"I prefer to regard my line spacings as an aid to clarity."

"Raggytash. I also construct numerous links to offer support to the points I make. However it is a failing of many on here to look at the source provider(eg CNN) and then promptly rubbish the content. For the most part supposed facts can easily be checked. A political story will be reported by left, right and the center with the associated bias provided as a freebie.
However when it comes to Brexit the argument revolves around a total unknown, With so many intangibles being thrown into the air having heated arguments is rather pointless. The entire proposition is in a state of flux and quite honestly having heated arguments over hypothetical scenarios is a waste of time. Leave and remain are entrenched positions on here and unlikely to change without someone making huge concessions and I consider that unlikely. The two sides are never going to agree and if the postings exceed 10000 nothing will have changed.
I read your links but obviously they are chosen to back up your position. The Guardian is very good at presenting biased opinions as facts. Many on here present opinion as facts. Some of us make it a point to carefully discriminate between the two, others are more "careless".
   I could respond to your links in the way others do and rubbish the source but I would regard that as a cop out."


Bwahahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:22 PM

There are some who consider the Guardian to be extremely left wing newspaper. There are some who consider the Mail to be extremely left wing newspaper, figures in this regard were posted a few day ago.

The Guardian has long been considered by most discerning people to be a liberal paper. Thus my use of it as a source.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:27 PM

I frequently reference Hansard, which rarely draws any comments either....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:36 PM

The Guardian has a long history of inviting people of all political colours to write columns. In addition, the paper is not owned by a media proprietor. The Guardian gets lots of things wrong but it gets more right than most other papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:17 PM

Jaysus. Steve, you've got to get on board with the rest of the post-factual world, dontcha know.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:26 PM

With so many intangibles being thrown into the air having heated arguments is rather pointless ... Leave and remain are entrenched positions on here and unlikely to change without someone making huge concessions and I consider that unlikely.

I agree with your second point. However, should there be a minor miracle and one side here completely convert to the other, it would not make a jot of difference to the outcome, which is being decided in rooms well beyond our influence. It would be possible to draw the conclusion that therefore we are just wasting our time talking at all: we should just sit here and be the passive recipients of anything that happens. That seems to add weight to your first point, but I don't think that is right. We are told more and more about "the bubble" where you only hear from people you agree with: there is a merit in hearing from those you don't agree with. It need not be about one side 'converting' the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:26 PM

I will not, Greg! I will not! I am no Keith!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 03:48 AM

As far as entrenched positions is concerned, I think I fit quite well into the "7/10" rating for the EU that Corbyn famously declared. I think there are a lot of remainers who are similar, and no doubt also a goodly proportion of leavers. Zealots on either side are probably a minority, however vocal.

In my case, the thing that made me most inclined to vote 'Leave' was how the EU treated Greece. While that was undoubtedly a difficult situation to resolve, it seemed that the rights of the people, including their democracy, were ignored to meet the financier's objectives. That was a system I wanted no part of, so seriously considered voting leave. However, it also seemed to me the costs of leaving were too great, so I ended up voting to stay in a less than satisfactory system, with the - albeit difficult - possibility of improving it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 04:23 AM

Well stevie blunder congratulations on the cut and paste. Repetition merely enforces my point of view, even a fool realises that!

Was it a failed attempt to make a link that lead to the crying "
Bwahahahaha! "
My commiserations. Keep trying. If a monkey can tap out a bible passage, there may be glimmer of hope for you yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:07 AM

I agree with all that, DMcG, though I never came close to voting leave. The EU contains a giant and stilted bureaucracy. There's a lot wrong and a lot that needs reforming. But the edifice is more than good enough for us to stay in and fight for that reform from within. That's the kind of deal we should now be trying to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:07 AM

You Gov says Leave has overtaken Remain again, so Remain is losing the argument.

New: was Britain right or wrong to vote for Brexit?
Right: 45% (+3)
Wrong 44% (-2)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/01/19/majority-britons-think-uk-right-leave-european-union-first-time/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:56 AM

Diane Abbott was asked to comment about Carillion, she said, “Remind me again, how many is a “Carillion”?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 08:42 AM

"You Gov says Leave has overtaken Remain again, so Remain is losing the argument."

Non sequitur.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:25 AM

Let me explain Steve.
The debate continues nationally as it does here.
The number supporting Remain is falling, while the number supporting Leave is increasing and is now ahead again.
Remain is thus losing the argument, and Leave is winning it.
OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:38 AM

Being in a minority doesn't mean you're losing the actual debate. You personally are in a minority of one in almost every thread here, unless you count bobad who's never there when you need him and always there when we don't, yet you routinely tell those in the majority over you that they lose. So stop being silly.

For the benefit of anyone here who is scared or jealous of well-educated people, or who harbours other philistine notions about education, Diane Abbott has a history degree from Cambridge, to which you don't get unless you're quite clever.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 10:10 AM

I presume that the Diane Abbott quip came from this:

Diane Abbott

A bit weak as an attempt at humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:46 AM

I thought it hilarious. Just shows what miserable bas****ds the remainers are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:14 PM

Being in a minority doesn't mean you're losing the actual debate.

If public opinion moves away from you, it does mean you are losing the actual debate.

You personally are in a minority of one in almost every thread here,

Yes, but only on Mudcat, not in the real world.

In the real world, Remainers lost the referendum and the trend is moving towards Leave.

In the real world, your Far Left politics put you in an almost irrelevant fringe minority.

You are just puffed up minnows. A big shoal here but only in this tiny pond.
Not the real world Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:46 PM

The trouble with that joke is that it's a rehash of a Dubya joke from at least twelve years ago in which he got agitated when he heard that a Brazilian had been killed and he wanted to know how many a Brazilian was. When you hear a weak joke that's just a rehash of an old one it's just tiresome, certainly not what I'd call "hilarious." But we know, don't we, that poor Iains has a thing about Diane Abbott, having been singularly rounded on here for his tasteless remarks about her appearance. It'll presumably be even worse now that I've informed him that she's well educated to boot. I wonder whether she wears sandals. Poor Diane.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:47 PM

"You are just puffed up minnows"

Calm down, dear.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 01:47 PM

The abbot.. may have a degree in history from cambridge but she has publicly demonstrated on several occasions that her grasp of basic maths is easily surpassed by the average 10 year old.
Would you like a few examples?

Here is one anyway to save you the bother of trying to deny the obvious.
You see stevie boy, links can be used to back up statements.

Perchance that is why you do not use them. It would never do for facts to get in the way of your opinionated scribings.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/may/05/diane-abbott-underestimates-labour-local-election-losses-video

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:42 PM

At least Abbot's mistake didn't cost the British taxpayer a 1 BILLION bung to a terrorist-linked party as THERESA MAY'S did
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 03:54 PM

The muddy side of politics is littered with links to terrorism.
Look at it as an example of real politik. The same reason commie corbyn supposedly backs brexit. (the alternative being a massacre in the polling booth.
Look what your little mate had to say on real politik:

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:25 PM
Any party(LABOUR) that voted against a referendum would have been instant toast and you know it. You don't do realpolitik, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 04:39 PM

Unfocused and incomprehensible as ever. And, last time I heard, maths was not a crucial part of history degree courses. You are severely jealous of anyone who's had a decent education. Comes across so clearly in so many of your posts. You'll just have to satisfy yourself (oops, did I really just say that?) with the delusion that you got your degree in Common Sense from the University of Life, old boy. Gentleman's third, I should imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:10 PM

"And, last time I heard, maths was not a crucial part of history degree courses."
Whoever said it was? you stupid boy!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:29 PM

You didn't study English either, did you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 06:08 PM

iain - is the term 'commie corbyn' supposed to be an insult or a cheap, cliched jibe? all this daily m**l inspired hate stuff is not really effective anymore, is it? in any other sensible european country jeremy corbyn would be nothing out of the ordinary, whereas our current government are exceptional in their self-harming. just an incompetent, unprincipled, feckless laughing stock. at least commies have a plan and some idealism

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 07:30 PM

To deal in facts, an alien concept with Iains, Jeremy Corbyn has never been a member of tbe Communist Party or any other leftie party. He's a Labour man through and through. When I was a trade union activist in London in the 1970s Jeremy and his ilk were regarded by us hardline lefties as sellout merchants. That's how much of a "commie" he was. Of course, it all looks different to aficionados of the Daily Bumwipe such as Iains, who never allow obstinate reality to get in their way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 04:34 AM

"To deal in facts, an alien concept with Iains"
That's a bit rich coming from you stevie boy! (the man with no links)
A teacher and activist? a bit of a contradiction in terms! Perhaps this explains your endless confusion. You really must have someone explain to you the vital difference between fact and fiction.


As for corbyn:
The man is a menace and momentum a threat to democracy.
The only consolation is that he is getting old.
Below are some links to partially explain the problem.
It is noteworthy that the three articles come from the same source on the same day.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5293373/Purge-Labour-moderates.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5293083/Jeremy-Corbyn-faces-race-row-rally-ticket-prices.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5293223/DAN-HODGES-Jeremy-let-Great-Purge-begin.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 05:28 AM

Having seen your links, Teribus, I'll ask again - do you ever read anything but the pro-Brexit, Tory Shitrags?

You need to widen your reading and get an education. And you need, for once in your life, to be honest, cut the thick ex-squaddie horse-shit, and answer the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 05:54 AM

What a silly fellow you are backw...


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/jeremy-corbyn-allies-plot-to-oust-50-labour-mps-87bkrv7l7

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:04 AM

Going to try to kid me it is all false news?
You know what they say: You can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink.
Got a problem swallowing backwoodsman?


https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/07/labour-mps-can-already-be-deselected-will-it-become-easier-do-so


https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/905343/labour-jeremy-corbyn-momentum-deselection


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/07/momentum-dismisses-labour-mp-deselection-hit-list-tories-trail/


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-labour-momentum-haringey-deselection-general-election-a8088326.html


2017/jul/06/labour-mps-critical-of-corbyn-fear-deselection-after-get-on-board-warning

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:16 AM

That may or may not be a fair criticism, but please explain what has it to do with Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM

Latest CBI position

Damn commie organisation...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:22 AM

"A teacher and activist? a bit of a contradiction in terms!"

Blair Peach. A good friend of mine. Look him up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

"However, Momentum issued a clear denial, saying "we will not campaign for the deselection of any MP and will not permit any local Momentum groups to do so. The selection of candidates is entirely a matter for local party members and rightly so".[24]"

From the horses mouth, not a right wing rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:53 AM

Staying in the customs union would also resolve the Irish border issue, subject to agreement with the people who are really setting the agenda, the DUP. Doubtful until the point of brinksmanship is reached, which won't be long coming now.

Interesting take on brexit and that referendum from the Guardian's editorial on 5 December:

In 2016, more than 17 million British people voted to leave the European Union. But, as the journalist Tim Shipman's new book, Fall Out, which covers the political turmoil of the 15 months since the referendum, makes clear, only two British people decided that this meant leaving the European single market, the customs union and the jurisdiction of the European court of justice.

Those two people were Theresa May and her former aide Nick Timothy. These fateful national decisions were their personal interpretations of the vote to leave the EU -- and theirs alone. As Mr Shipman explains, these foundational decisions of the UK's withdrawal strategy were not discussed by Mrs May's cabinet, let alone by parliament. Instead they were simply prime ministerial edicts to the 2016 Conservative conference. Later, they were included in the Tory manifesto for the June 2017 election, in which the party lost its overall majority, Mrs May's leadership was humiliated and Mr Timothy lost his job.

So two now-discredited people decided that the referendum meant that we can't be in the single market and customs union. You can bet your life that, had you asked the electorate what that actually meant before the vote, you'd have got an overwhelmingly clueless response. Theresa May, acting without personal mandate, has certainly "taken back control" of massive decisions that neither the people of this country, parliament nor even her own cabinet were party to. Yet we get all this guff about how undemocratic the EU is. I could say "what a joke," except that this is the most unfunny thing I can think of.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 06:56 AM

"That may or may not be a fair criticism, but please explain what has it to do with Brexit."

It comes down to the question of: Do Mp's vote according to the whips and their personal preferences or do they follow the wishes of their electorate? As most, if not all MPs are careerists, they sometimes have awkward choices to make as their electorate may deviate dramatically from the official party line. Complex situation because on some issues they are simply their own man.
The link below discusses it. A shame it does not delve deeper.

It is significant that the most depressed areas in the UK voted to leave. These areas would be the historical labour heartlands.
Strange to say I have seen no labour luvvies try to square this particular circle. I further note these labour heartlands coincide with the traditional coal mining areas. Staunch labour here vote stay. Staunch labour supporters on the electoral roll vote leave.
Boys!You have a problem!


http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/mps-voting-personal-or-constituency-preferences/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM

A general search:" map labour areas 2017" gives a few graphics to show some of the above points.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 09:28 AM

Cannot give the French an EU exit referendum, they might want to leave too!


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5294037/Macron-admits-France-probably-voted-quit-EU.html

It is all getting a bit shaky! Foundations on sand and all that.......

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM

I think we should be more concerned about attempts to woo companies in the Financial sector to France than what MAY have happened IF the French were given a referendum vote.

I have already related how the Irish Finance Minister was having talks with companies in the Finance sector.

Yet another potential blow for the UK economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:06 AM

How MPs trade off responsibilities to their parties and their constituents is a deep and long standing one. A decade or so ago I heard a talk by Edwina Currie on how to be a successful MP. Not once, in the hour or so, did she mention her constituents.

So - a problem, right enough. But nothing to do with Brexit.

On the other point, yes, Labour has some interesting problems in the relationship between its voters and the areas which predominately voted to leave. But unless there is an election before March 2019 that will not affect the Brexit terms, which will set the path whoever is in power. So again, I don't think it is really that relevant to post Brexit life. Much more significant is that, for example, Parliament voted against this clause (and apologies for the length):

====
New clause 14—Maintaining individual rights and protections—


“(1) When making any agreement under subsection (2), the Secretary of State shall take steps to ensure that UK citizens enjoy standards of rights and protections equivalent to those enjoyed by citizens of the EU under EU law.


(2) This section applies to—


(a) any agreement between the United Kingdom and the EU which prepares for, or implements, the UK’s withdrawal from the EU;


(b) any international trade agreement—?


(i) between the UK and the EU, or


(ii) between the UK and another signatory which seeks to replicate in full or in part the provisions of an international trade agreement between the EU and the other signatory.


(3) In relation to any agreement under subsection (2), the Secretary of State will maintain the highest standards of transparency.”


This new clause creates a duty for the Government to ensure that individual rights and protections are maintained to a level equivalent to (although not necessarily the same as) those in the EU when making agreements with the EU or international trade agreements.
====

So Parliament voted 'NO' to maintaining equivalent rights for its citizens. And, relating to the first point, there were perhaps 150 MPs in the chamber to listen to the debate, but - I haven't looked up the exact figures - they almost all voted, based on their party's lines. I doubt if many constituents were writing the MPs demanding removal of guaranteed rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:08 AM

" they almost all voted" - I mean almost all 650 MPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:18 AM

It's amazing how the potential hit to our financial services sector has been played down for public consumption when you consider that that sector dwarfs the rest of our economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:50 AM

I periodically have talks with myself about winning the lottery. This does not mean it is going to happen. Business will go where the rewards are greatest, It is as simple as that. Should the EU bring about a uniform taxation system it ia anybodies guess as to where the preferred location WOULD be.
   I would argue the only reason that financial services would relocate from London would be because the EU created a more attractive profit regime. This will need clearly defined nuts and bolts in place before anything will happen.So far all we see is wishful thinking. The EU is also taking a close look at Ireland and it's perceived status as a perceived tax haven. How does the potential closure of that loophole equate with attracting financial services from London. It is total delusion. (I presume this is what we are talking about).

The vote on equal rights had it failed would maintain freedom of movement, refugees and all. The vote was totally in line with the sentiment of the labour heartlands so no conflict occurred between mp's and their electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 10:52 AM

poor proof reading forgot to cut the double perceived.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 11:03 AM

The clause of ensuring equivalent rights is purely about UK citizens and haa no relevance for freedom of movement for anyone other than a UK citizen. You can easily read the debate about the clause in Hansard and no-one suggested it did.

You can read the reasons for the government rejecting it, but in essence they boil down to, and I quote "could create needless uncertainty for businesses and individuals"

Much better for the citizens to know they have no guarantee of the right, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 11:25 AM

My post, by the way, also is relevant to With so many intangibles being thrown into the air having heated arguments is rather pointless. The entire proposition is in a state of flux and quite honestly having heated arguments over hypothetical scenarios is a waste of time: these are not things that may or may not happen at some time in the future depending on how the negotiations go. These are votes being taken now (last Tuesday to be precise) that are defining the sort of future we will have if we have a negotiated Brexit. It is an assumption, but I think a plausible one, that we would also lose the guaranteed right if we have 'no deal': certainly that would be the default position as it nstands currently.

So these are risks to our rights being decided now as a result of Brexit. To my mind they are worth talking about. Even at this late stage the rights could be protected if the Lords do so and the Commons then accepts the Lord's amendment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 12:19 PM

You can bet your life that, had you asked the electorate what that actually meant before the vote, you'd have got an overwhelmingly clueless response.

No. You just think them stupid because they mostly disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 12:20 PM

DMcG. Having read Hansard I think I would need a legal background to fully understand all the ramifications. As far as I can make out when it comes to rights we default to those established by international agreements and existing British case law. I find it hard to define which would be the superior condition. Time alone will tell.
This is not meant to be an evasive answer, but the subject simply does not lead to yes no answers. Perhaps the existing legislation is more beneficial, perhaps not. Then again only a naive idealist would believe that no negatives are attached to brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 12:38 PM

Thanks for taking the trouble read it. It is not easy reading, I agree, but we would have a better standard of discussion if qe basws it on such things rather than newspapers.

As for: This is not meant to be an evasive answer, but the subject simply does not lead to yes no answers.

Unfoetunately thar is exactly what a division/vote is: yes or no. Agree or not. Leave or Remain. Many things do not "simply lead to yes no answers". And many parliamentarians do not have a legal background either.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 12:39 PM

"Then again only a naive idealist would believe that no negatives are attached to brexit"

Iains, that is the one and only honest comment I have read from the people on your side of this discussion.

Thank you for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 01:15 PM

Raggytash. Remainers also have a similar problem. I doubt anyone is entirely satisfied with the EU and it's proposed plans going forward.
The decision revolves around whether the wished for changes can be achieved inside or outside the bloc. Inside, outside there are flaws a plenty. The posturing on both sides concerning negotiations is verging on a farce. Each party seems determined to stall up to the wire. Not a very edifying experience. Looks like it will be a pyrrhic victory irregardless of who may assume they may have won.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 01:28 PM

Business will go where the rewards are greatest, It is as simple as that.

It is indeed as simple as that but it would be foolish to believe that the rewards can only be measured by short term gain. Do we pay peanuts, employ monkeys and make a quick buck until the bubble bursts of do we look to the long term? Do we make a million in a year and then burn out of do we make half a million a year forever? Do we use up the planet's resources or do we act responsibly and make sure our species survives?

Economics again. Don't believe that every business is just in it For the short term.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 01:45 PM

"The posturing on both sides concerning negotiations is verging on a farce"

Certainly the actions of the present Government can aptly be described as farcical.

It would seem that even those in Government given the task of negotiating the exit of the UK from the EU haven't really got a clue as to the aspirations of their own party, never mind the wishes of the people they are supposed to represent.

Our exit from the EU will have massive implications for decades to come and we are trusting people who seem not to have a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 01:47 PM

Not simply economics Dave, the shareholders must also be kept happy. The profit motive rules supreme and human greed creates the bubbles and fear the ensuing slumps. Morality is not, and cannot ever be a part of the equation in a capitalist system. That fact of life and also the reality that legally corporations are discrete entities both create many of our problems.
Perhaps theoretical economics is a reliable tool, though I very much doubt it. But economics is not the issue, it is capitalism and its fiendish cousin from the darkside called globalism, Sadly they are both unfettered devils that have been unleashed on unsuspecting humanity.
The final chains were broken by Reagan and Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 02:12 PM

"Certainly the actions of the present Government can aptly be described as farcical."

and no doubt the opposition are pure as driven snow!

Labour also have some embarrassing problems, the official line is leave and they would like the opposite. Can they be sure no general election will occur between now and brexit? The actual movers and shakers are also a bone of contention within the party and very few trust momentum.
A fine mess they find themselves in!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 02:16 PM

"Morality is not, and cannot ever be a part of the equation in a capitalist system."

Of course it can. Organic vegetable growers, and farmers who put the welfare of their animals first are still part of the capitalist system. Plenty of capitalists go to lengths lengths to invest only in ethical companies. You can be a capitalist yet still choose to boycott enterprises you regard as unethical.

Keith, if you really think that, even now, the vast majority of the voting public could explain to you what the single market and the customs union are, you're in cloud cuckoo land.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 02:39 PM

The profit motive rules supreme and human greed creates the bubbles and fear the ensuing slumps. Morality is not, and cannot ever be a part of the equation in a capitalist system.

Too cynical Iains. There are responsible capitalists and they are on the increase. I don't think we will see the tipping point by it will happen. Keep up the pressure and it may be sooner.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 03:43 PM

"Organic vegetable growers, and farmers who put the welfare of their animals first are still part of the capitalist system" They are still reliant on massive subsidies to keep solvent and also comprise a very small minority.
"Plenty of capitalists go to lengths lengths to invest only in ethical companies. You can be a capitalist yet still choose to boycott enterprises you regard as unethical."
Plenty would suggest a majority. Totally erroneous I suspect. Similarly a capitalist boycotting unethical investments may well exist but again a minority.
You have to remember that another vital aspect of capitalism is competition( if it cannot be bought out, bankrupted or driven away by tariff barriers). Simplistically if competing on a "level playing field" lowest price wins. Competition will dictate price, location of manufacturing base, or raw materials and hence profitability. Altruistic concerns have scant chance of success in such an environment.
Some may say my interpretation is cynical, but for big business especially, it is realistic. That is the world we live in.
   It is a totally flawed system admittedly, but recent legislation has merely introduced further flaws and greater instabilities to the system. Government seems afraid to dictate to banks, the reverse seems to be the case.
    It really does make you wonder who really calls the shots.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 03:51 PM

Being ethical does not necessarily mean being altruistic. And plenty does not indicate a majority. Dictionaries are available.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 04:13 PM

Getting back to that clause I referenced earlier, and Iains statement it is not a yes no decision. Thinking about it we all have a series of yes/no decisions:

1) do we think this puts existing rights for the ordinary individual at risk or not? (Yes/no)
2) if so, should We contact the MP to make our view known (yes/no)

We agree the chances of it influencing said MP are low. Nevertheless, do you just shrug and let it go?

The same applies to all the other clauses, not just this one. I did not support them all, but most I thought were improvements to the bill.


So what to do? In my case, I wrote earlier in the week and said I had watched the debates but did not see my MP in the chamber. Can he confirm he was there? If not, please summarise what other parliamentary duty he was engaged in and why he considered it more important.

I do not expect anything very productive in response, but it seemed the least I could do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 04:14 PM

and being called shaw does not mean you always have to be a total prat
you patronising little shit!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 05:15 PM

Macron is toying with Theresa May. He talks a nice talk, special relationship, bespoke deal, etc., but he always comes back to his bottom line. It's basically single market (free movement, ECJ, stick to all the trading rules, you get no say), or it's nothing, and that nothing means no deal for our services sector. He's manoeuvring himself, in the teeth of Merkel's difficulties, into the position of main man in Europe. He's strong in his own country and he sees May's weaknesses all too clearly. There's a deal of opportunistic politicking going on!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 08:55 PM

A summary of Labour's state of play from the Observer, backed up with the results of a survey:

Labour supporters press Corbyn on EU
Majority back Britain staying in single market and customs union
by Toby Helm and Michael Savage

Jeremy Corbyn is under huge pressure to shift party policy on Brexit as an exclusive poll for the Observer reveals a substantial majority of existing and potential Labour voters want him to back permanent membership of the EU's single market and customs union.

Four times as many Labour supporters favour that option as oppose it. The survey by Opinium also finds that more than twice as many in this group want Corbyn to support a second referendum on the eventual Brexit deal as reject it.

The poll comes at a time when senior European politicians are signalling that Britain could reverse its decision to leave the EU and warning that there will be no prospect of reaping the benefits of membership from outside the bloc.

Emmanuel Macron will say today on The Andrew Marr Show that he would love to see Britain return, adding: "It depends on you. I do respect this vote, I do regret this vote, and I would love to welcome you again." However, he warns that full access to the single market for the UK's huge financial services industry will be "not feasible".

The CBI is preparing this week to call on the government to abandon the pursuit of global trade deals in favour of long-term EU customs union membership. In the wake of the Observer poll, senior Labour MPs are saying it is no longer credible for a party that is serious about power to overlook the demands of so many trade unions, supporters and business leaders.

The former shadow business secretary, Labour MP Chuka Umunna, said: "It is absolutely vital, as the party of work and social justice, that we have a clear and unequivocal policy to keep the UK in the single market and the customs union.

"When our members, our trade unions, our businesses, Labour voters and potential voters are all giving the Labour party the same clear message that this is what the country needs, it does not make any sense at all to ignore it."

Opinium found that among all potential Labour voters at the next election, 56% want the party to back permanent membership of the single market and customs union, while just 13% think it should remain opposed; 30% had no firm view either way.

Among younger voters, the balance in favour was even clearer: 63% of all "young professionals" who are potential Labour backers were in favour, against 10% who were opposed. Of the "young blue collar workers" who might back Corbyn's party, 61% were in favour of the change against just 4% who were against.

Significantly, even among Labour voters who backed Leave, 37% said they want Corbyn to support permanent single market and customs union membership compared with just 26% who did not.

Some 51% of Labour's potential pool of support backs a second referendum on the final Brexit deal, against 23% who oppose the idea.

Despite mounting disquiet among pro-Remain Labour MPs, Corbyn has so far rejected calls to back staying in the single market and customs union. Labour's current policy is to keep the UK in both only for the duration of a post-Brexit transition of up to four years. After that it would try to negotiate a relationship offering the "exact same benefits" for the UK post-Brexit. Corbyn has also refused to endorse a second referendum.

There's too much strain in Labour at the moment, with the vast majority of supporters not in line with the party leadership. Something's got to change, and I think it will. God knows what Jeremy is waiting for.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 03:45 AM

From: Steve Shaw

Macron is toying with Theresa May. He talks a nice talk, special relationship, bespoke deal, etc., but he always comes back to his bottom line. It's basically single market (free movement, ECJ, stick to all the trading rules, you get no say), or it's nothing, and that nothing means no deal for our services sector. He's manoeuvring himself, in the teeth of Merkel's difficulties, into the position of main man in Europe. He's strong in his own country and he sees May's weaknesses all too clearly. There's a deal of opportunistic politicking going on!

It's such a shame then that the EU has made clear that all the negotiation must be done through their negotiating team (Bernier et al)
Still, Macron has at least been open about the fact that he believes France would vote to leave, if only they were given the opportunity.

He's manoeuvring himself, in the teeth of Merkel's difficulties, into the position of main man in Europe
A little sexist, that comment. "Main person" maybe. Or do you consider that Angela Merkel is currently the "main man"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 03:55 AM

Simplistically if competing on a "level playing field" lowest price wins.

No, best value wins. To use the late great Terry Pratchett's example, do you buy boots for a dollar that last a few months of boots for 10 dollars that last a lifetime? Businesses that work on lowest price rather than value for money are destined for the receivers office.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 04:54 AM

Steve,
Keith, if you really think that, even now, the vast majority of the voting public could explain to you what the single market and the customs union are, you're in cloud cuckoo land.

The Far Left has always been contemptuous about the people you called "plebs" because they refuse to elect you.
I do not share your contempt for the people of this country.

A summary of Labour's state of play from the Observer, backed up with the results of a survey:

It was a survey, of "potential Labour voters" (?) conducted for the Observer, by something called "Opinium."

Not very impressive, and according to you they do not know what the single market and Customs Union are anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:10 AM

Dave I would have thought it implicit in the understanding that best price equals best value, with all other things being equal. However if you wish to emphasize value I will not argue with you. I think the basic premise still stands.(dotting every i and crossing every t on a forum like this could become very tedious when presenting arguments and I am afraid I do not have the same patience and thoroughness shown by Teribus when it comes to constructing arguments - as you may have noticed)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:19 AM

Sadly, Iains, best price does not always equal best value and I think that distinction is important. It ties in very much with your statement Morality is not, and cannot ever be a part of the equation in a capitalist system. When best value means that you can sustain the business, the partners, the customers, the suppliers and the planet them morality becomes an important part of the equation.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:24 AM

Main person my arse, Nigel. "Main man" is a frequent expression. "Main person" is not. Now are you going to use you presence here today to dedicate yourself to further nitpicking and stalking, or alternatively would you care to comment on Iain's remark that he fears the EU is taking us down the path of Hitlerism? Remember that, Nigel? You nitpicked a trifle of mine, ignored that remark of his in the same post then told us you didn't support him? Like hell, Nigel. Go and find something useful to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:26 AM

A very silly post from you to start the week, Keith. Go on, cheer us up. Give us something from the Mail. Or maybe Guido.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:28 AM

Britain should prepare for a much more economically optimistic 2018 because global growth is better than predicted.

Britain's growth forecasts are likely to be upgraded as China, the US and Europe show increased activity.
The gloomy predictions of the possible effects of Brexit are likely to be "dwarfed" by the more positive figures, Lord O'Neill the former Conservative Treasury minister and Remain supporter.
added.

"I certainly wouldn't have thought the UK economy would be as robust as it currently seems," Lord O'Neill, who is on the board of the Northern Powerhouse Partnership, told me.
"That is because some parts of the country, led by the North West [of England], are actually doing way better than people seem to realise or appreciate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:29 AM

That was BBC today Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:42 AM

Very nice. Keep looking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:58 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:24 AM
. . .alternatively would you care to comment on Iain's remark that he fears the EU is taking us down the path of Hitlerism? Remember that, Nigel? You nitpicked a trifle of mine, ignored that remark of his in the same post then told us you didn't support him?

I didn't comment on that at the time because I didn't read that.
Is selective misquoting now another of your tools? And suddenly commenting on something three pages earlier to make it hard to check as well?

Iains: The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler. Some of us are concerned the un-elected bureaucrats might be toddling off down the road to a similar nightmare.

"A similar nightmare" is not the same as "Taking us down the path to Hitlerism". Although that might be your understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 06:08 AM

Iains, there are three basic things (there are other considerations) that a professional buyer or contract manager looks for when deciding how (and with whom) to award a contract. They are Quality, Price and Service.

Having been both a buyer and a contracts manager trust me, price alone does not rule the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 06:23 AM

I should have added that shareholders are only part of the picture. More and more companies are warming to the idea of satisfying the requirements of all stakeholders. This includes shareholders, management, employees, suppliers and anyone else that has a stake in the business.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 06:25 AM

Several other phrases in that BBC report Steve, things like:

"That's the argument of Lord Jim O'Neill, the former Conservative Treasury minister and Remain supporter" So not at all biased then.

"He said Britain's growth forecasts are likely to be upgraded as China, the US and Europe show increased activity" So much of the rest of the world is also increasing.

""As well as this crucial fact, the rest of the world is also doing way better than many people would have thought a year ago, so it makes it easier for the UK." So the rest of the world has an improved forecast.

"A recent assessment by Cambridge Econometrics for the Mayor of London suggested that growth across the UK could be on average 3% lower by 2030 than it would have been if Britain remained within the EU's single market and customs union." A counter-argument from an organisation using robust, empirical evidence.

""Now, my own view is if we go for a really hard Brexit or a no-deal Brexit, we'll probably suffer more than that 3%." So there will be a hit.

"But if it is only 3%, what's going on with the rest of the world - helping us - and with productivity improving, that will easily dwarf a 3% hit over 13 years, easily." Two things here, one an assumption that the rest of the world will help us and two the recovery period is 13 (THIRTEEN) years.

"Because of course, in principle, I share the views of many that Brexit is a really weird thing for the UK to impose on itself from an economic perspective." Even O'Neill thinks Brexit is damaging economically

"He said that the "Brexiteers are going to be like the cat with the cream. They're like 'there you go, told you so', which of course is ridiculous". Well he got that bit right.

"Lord O'Neill said that major sectors of the economy that are closely linked to the EU, such as car manufacturing and pharmaceuticals, were still facing significant threats because of the government's proposals to leave the customs union and the single market." Aha, so everything in the garden is not so rosy.

"Virtually every major place I can think of, [with the] possible exception of us, are all sharing in it at the same time. World trade - just when everybody's trying to write it off - has actually risen sharply." So the rest of the world is doing quite well, but we're not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 07:19 AM

Raggytash:
Two things here, one an assumption that the rest of the world will help us and two the recovery period is 13 (THIRTEEN) years.
The 13 years is not surprising, this is based on forecasts of how things will stand in 2030.

"Because of course, in principle, I share the views of many that Brexit is a really weird thing for the UK to impose on itself from an economic perspective." Even O'Neill thinks Brexit is damaging economically
Again, not surprising. your second paragraph gives him as "a Remain supporter".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 08:03 AM

Quite so Nigel.

However it would seem that by very selective cherry-picking a rosy picture was put forward. When read as a whole the picture is not actually all that good.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 08:43 AM

Brexiteers are really scraping the bottom of the barrel this weekend. The fuss is about the bell at the Elizabeth Tower, Westminster possibly not being chimed when we leave the EU.

This is as pathetic as it comes, all the little englanders in their union flag underpants and waistcoats up in arms.


Big Ben Bongs

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 09:25 AM

"That's the argument of Lord Jim O'Neill, the former Conservative Treasury minister and Remain supporter" So not at all biased then.

Of course he is biased. Even now he is a Remainer.
When he was in the Treasury, it told us that voting Leave would have an "immediate and profound" effect on the economy, cause a huge rise in unemployment and necessitate an emergency budget to raise money.

How many voters were influenced by such dire predictions from the Treasury and august bodies like the IMF. More than by the disputed bus prediction I am sure.
I was certainly forced to think twice and reconsider.

Had they won they would never have admitted it was all bollocks, and probably deliberate lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:10 AM

Anent lowest price wins.

“There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey."

                        - John Ruskin

"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:17 AM

What a hypocritical post, Keith.

Nigel, go and nitpick elsewhere. You managed to point out absolutely no significant distinction between the original and my rewording. When Keith and Iains are saying such stupid things all the time, all you can do is nitpick ME on the finer points. Why not have a good old bash at their real absurdities? You're solidly in their camp, that's why. Now you really are not coming out of this well. Tsk.

Things to do. Can't jump hoops. Only time to take the piss. See y'all later...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:37 AM

Latest news:

"UBS, the Swiss investment bank, will not wait for details of a possible transition deal before triggering its Brexit contingency plans “in early 2018”, risking the loss of up to 1,000 UK jobs, the Press Association reports. It detailed the plans in its fourth quarter earnings report, in line with expectations that a raft of international firms will be forced to start moving jobs and EU client operations by the end of March. It said:

The UK is still expected to leave the EU in March 2019, subject to a possible transition period. We intend to begin implementation of contingency measures in early 2018."

So Finance companies are getting out sooner than predicted. The thin end of the wedge. Thanks to those that voted leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 11:40 AM

When Keith and Iains are saying such stupid things all the time

Please identify one such stupid thing Steve, if it is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 12:09 PM

I'm sure everyone know about this, but there is the problem of hysteresis when it comes to businesses moving elsewhere. There is a cost of moving from A to B, but if you do so, and subsequently then consider moving back, the costs are similar: you don't get it back. So, informally, if we lost a significant part of the finance industries as Brexit approached, and then decided to back out and to stay in the EU, those who had moved would, in the main, stay where they are; we would have to offer a much bigger incentive to persuade them to come back to the UK once that had achieved the transitions to, say, Paris or Frankfurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 12:22 PM

Well, well, well, Alan Sked. That's a blast from the past.

I went to hear him speak back in 1991 or thereabouts; it may even have been before he formally founded the party.

I was unimpressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 12:42 PM

Dave and Raggytash:
An interesting article that encapsulates most sides of my and your arguments. Enjoy!


http://evonomics.com/role-of-morality-in-a-capitalist-economy/

It may be highly desirable for corporations or capitalists to have a conscience but there are no statistics I can find to further the argument. Not for profit Organisations are in a class of their own.
All things may theoretically be possible within the remit of making a profit and keeping shareholders happy, including pandering to a moral conscience, but for most profit and destroying competition tend to be major drivers.
Generally charitable donations are tax deductible so no gain, no pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 01:26 PM

Interesting article. There are twwo main points I would raise.

Firarly, combining evolution with social sciences has a very long and largely unpleasant history. This is not to say you shouldn't do it, but every alarm should be set on "highest sensitivity". It is easily ised to justify all sorts of things that are repugnant.

The second thing is that "Greed 1" is essentially a hill climbing algorithm and so inherently produces sub-optimal solutions. I would like to hear his views on that.

But let's stick to Brexit!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 01:31 PM

I'm having a pint or three at the moment Iains. I read this tonight .........or more probably tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 03:05 PM

For each link that supports your case someone will find one that does the opposite. Study the evidence, then draw your conclusion. Don't draw the conclusion then find evidence to support it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 03:36 PM

I rather thought the article gave some substance to both sides of the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 04:01 PM

CBI wants UK to stay in customs union

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM

Yet another wonderful result of the uncertainty surrounding Brexit:

JLR Cuts production

Anyone got any good news yet????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 04:47 PM

Yes, look at the link at the bottom of that page:Jaguar Land Rover reports record annual sales
This relates to sales in 2017, so after the Brexit vote.

The company said Jaguar sold 178,601 cars, up 20% on the year before, while Land Rover sales rose 2% to 442,508.

JLR said sales had more than tripled since 2009.

It said this was the seventh successive year of growth, which was driven by the introduction of new models and increased uptake of its clean diesel and petrol engines.

The company said that growing sales in China and the US helped to offset what it described as "difficult market conditions" in the European and UK markets.

China was the company's most important region in 2017 with annual sales of 146,399, up 23% year-on-year.

It described its performance in the UK as "solid", with 117,748 Jaguars and Land Rovers sold.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:06 PM

But, Nigel, in the (slightly) more recent JLR announcement is this:

SMMT chief executive Mike Hawes said at the time: "Brexit uncertainty, coupled with confusion over diesel taxation and air quality plans, continues to impact domestic demand for new cars and, with it, production output."


So Brexit explicitly blamed. As to which announcement is a better representation of the truth, you pays yer money and takes yer choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:46 PM

Brave faceism is becoming quite an epidemic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 05:51 PM

That's quite a big piece on the BBC news website that DMcG is quoting from. Perhaps Nigel will see it tomorrow post-duvet time. Three wheels on my wagon...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 06:42 PM

So long EU.........hello CANZUK?

"CANZUK International (CI) is the leading group advocating closer ties between Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom, known amongst diplomats at the United Nations as the ?CANZUK Group?."

http://www.canzukinternational.com/our-mission

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 07:38 PM

That's quite a big piece on the BBC news website that DMcG is quoting from. Perhaps Nigel will see it tomorrow post-duvet time. Three wheels on my wagon...
I saw it, I read it. I quoted from a further link at the bottom of that same page.

Raggytash posted the original link.

DMcG's quote: SMMT chief executive Mike Hawes said at the time: "Brexit uncertainty, coupled with confusion over diesel taxation and air quality plans, continues to impact domestic demand for new cars and, with it, production output." which he commented on as "Brexit explicitly blamed".
While the quote mentions Brexit, it also links in other factors (diesel taxation and air quality plans).
The article doesn't give figures for the reduction in output specific for JLR, but it does give a figure of a 5.7% reduction in UK (and Europe?) in 2017.
As the other article from the same source (which I linked to) gives JLR hitting a record high in 2017, it appears that sales to the rest of the world are more than making up for reduced sales to UK & EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 07:47 PM

Brave Faceman strikes again!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 08:13 PM

Several things about Canzuk. First, it's miles away from getting off the ground and the UK will be long gone from the EU before anything significant can be set up, and, by then, brexit will have turned us into a very unattractive basket case with whom you will want to do only limited business. Second, manufactured goods is a small part of our economy. We haven't got much that you'd really want. We'd be a net importer, and, with the best will in the world when you look at the countries included, we'd still have to buy the bulk of what would then be our tariff-stricken goods that we need from outside the block. The financial services sector is four-fifths of our economy, and a good deal of it is currently tied up with the EU with whom we currently enjoy a cracking good deal. Let's hear your suggestions as to how that can be untangled then reconnected to a setup that is supposed to be a competitor of the EU. Third, it's a bloody long way from the UK to Canuckistan to Oz to NZ... Fourth, the EU currently adds up to half a billion people and, if I got my arse in gear, I could be nattering to any one of 'em face to face in about twelve hours from now (it's late, no-can-fly late...). Canzuk can't get anywhere near that number. Size isn't everything, I suppose...

Sounds to me like an mini-EU with every country in it half a globe away from every other. Anyone for edicts from unelected bureaucrats in Wollongong?

And no-one mentions China and India. Let's have a referendum about it, I say.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:54 AM

You are fond of that ploy, Nigel. No one said Brexit was the ONLY factor. It was identified as ONE OF the factors. And, befire you come back with 'no one knows how big a factor' it is still a negative even it is only a few percent.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:01 AM

Personally, by the way, I would say the increased sales overseas is good news due (in part!) to the loss in value of the pound due to Brexit. You can't, though, as you insist the drop is nothing to do with Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:40 AM

You are fond of that ploy, Nigel. No one said Brexit was the ONLY factor.

True, your comment was: So Brexit explicitly blamed. As to which announcement is a better representation of the truth, you pays yer money and takes yer choice.
So no attempt to say there that Brexit was one of the reasons given, just "Brexit explicitly blamed".
It is possible to mislead by omission. I was just clarifying that Brexit was not the sole reason given.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:41 AM

I admit I could have been clearer.

Do you, though, accept Brexit was one of the factors leading to the decision to reduce production?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:58 AM

Yes, I accept the quote as it was given:
"Brexit uncertainty, coupled with confusion over diesel taxation and air quality plans, continues to impact domestic demand for new cars and, with it, production output."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 08:24 AM

Steve,
we'd still have to buy the bulk of what would then be our tariff-stricken goods that we need from outside the block.

Let me try again to explain this basic stuff to you Steve.
When we leave, we will not have to apply tariffs to food, clothing and footwear as the EU makes us do now.
The only tariff free stuff we can get now is from the EU which is the most expensive stuff in the world! That is why they impose their tariffs.

Get it now?
Anything else I can educate you on?
Now you know the facts will you change your views?

DMcG,
CBI wants UK to stay in customs union

They are slavishly pro. EU.
They campaigned for us to join the ERM, which was disastrous for our economy.
They campaigned for us to join the euro, which would have been worse.
Meanwhile for their members business is booming with orders at their highest for 30 years and exports at their best for 20 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 09:05 AM

And where's all this food suddenly coming from instead then, Keith? We will still have to buy most of it from the EU. WITH TARIFFS. Well there's always GM stuff and chlorine chickens... Footwear and clothing, all from China, India and Bangladesh already. Are you telling me that we will all pay a lot less for that stuff after we leave? In yer dreams, mate. And encouraging those markets even more means encouraging child labour, exploitation of women, dangerous working conditions and human rights violations. Maybe you only care on Sundays.

Advice to importers from transporteca.co.uk:

After the Brexit decision, the import relationship with non-EU countries will not change. The only difference will be if the EU makes trade agreements with non-EU countries, the UK will be left out. However, in regard to your transportation, you will still need to custom clear your goods, provide a commercial invoice and pay import duties.

So where exactly is this brave new world of yours, Keith? And what about the financial services sector?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 09:11 AM

And as a matter of fact, Keith, my post related to a hypothetical trading situation once we'd joined the proposed Canzuk block, not when we were on our own after brexit, the latter, er, a slightly more likely scenario. Glad to educate you on the correct reading of posts.

But you're still wrong anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 09:16 AM

Yet more mushroom management from our Government.

"George Parker in the Financial Times (paywall) says Theresa May has been accused of leaving the City of London “in the dark” after the government admitted a long-expected paper setting out its trade goals for financial services after Brexit may never be published.
Last autumn, senior City figures say they were promised a detailed position paper in a matter of weeks setting out Britain’s negotiating priorities for a sector that employs more than 1m people across the country.

But delivery of the paper was delayed repeatedly and now ministers are considering not publishing it at all, according to business executives and government officials involved in the discussions. The government remains unable to agree a detailed position on the sector, and some officials are still reluctant to show Brussels their negotiating hand, they added."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 09:19 AM

"Anything else I can educate you on?
Now you know the facts will you change your views?"
"Idiots will never change while they insist on living up their own arses"
(old Liverpool saying)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 09:31 AM

Steve,
We will still have to buy most of it from the EU. WITH TARIFFS.

No Steve. Let me try again to explain these basics to you.
We will not be applying tarriffs to food wherever it comes from, excepting only for products such as sheep meat where our own prducers need protecting.

Are you telling me that we will all pay a lot less for that stuff after we leave?

We will not have to impose tariffs so yes they will be cheaper.

Get it now?
Anything else I can educate you on?
Now you know the facts will you change your views?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 10:02 AM

So you think my Asda George shirts and my Mountain Warehouse pants will go down in price after Brexit? When the pound's collapsing making our imports dearer? And before we've done deals with non-EU countries that will take years to do? And when retailers see a chance to boost their profits? And when this government is slashing public sector pay whilst inflation is soaring and bobbling people's spending power? What candy-coated, cloud cuckoo-infested planet are you on, Keith? Sounds like a land of vain hope and no glory to me.

The CBI is not slavishly anti-brexit. The CBI has accepted the referendum result and is daily making the case for an orderly brexit and lobbying for staying in the single market and customs union, and is advising its members on what contingency plans and adjustments they need to be making. It takes into account the views of thousands of businesses, large and small, who are a damn sight closer to the nitty-gritty realities of this than this pathetic government and ideological little-Englanders like you. Have a good look at their website instead of playing the willing role of Mail-fodder. And educate yourself instead of insulting an organisation which, unlike you, has its feet on the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 10:05 AM

Sorry, you didn't say anti-brexit. you said slavishly pro-EU. Almost but not quite same difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 10:06 AM

NO TARRIFS WOULD BREAK WTO RULES

FUTURE UNCERTAN

THERE MAY BE TROUBLE AHEAD

So "Let's face the music and dance" - eh!!!

There are certain people in this world who should never - ever attempt to talk down to people
"When will they ever learn?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM

I rather thought the article gave some substance to both sides of the argument.

Yes, granted, it does not come down heavily on either side. To such an extent that I cannot yet glean what the point actually was! I shall try a re-read some time soon to see if it becomes clearer. It certainly displays the fact that economics is not clear cut and many of the arguments dispute the statement that morality has no place in business.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:14 PM

Steve,
So you think my Asda George shirts and my Mountain Warehouse pants will go down in price after Brexit? When the pound's collapsing making our imports dearer?

The pound is no longer dropping and if your shirts and pants are made outside EU as they almost certainly are, they will be cheaper because they will lose their tariff.

And educate yourself instead of insulting an organisation which, unlike you, has its feet on the ground.

An organisation which was WRONG about both ERM and Euro and the immediate consequence of the leave vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:49 PM

So, when tariffs are dropped all savings are passed on to the consumer are they? Interesting that this is what I have been saying should happen in an ethical world but one of your fellow brexiteers is saying that what really happens is that the companies in question will just use the savings to maximise profits. So, sadly, no savings on Steve's shirts and pants at all. In fact, without the consumer protection afforded by the EU, this government is likely to allow poorer quality imports to make even more money. All speculation of course but more likely than pigs flying prices coming down.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:57 PM

How does anyone on planet Earth actually KNOW that joining the euro would have been bad for this country? Would never have opted for it meself, but it didn't do Germany any harm. It's a great thing, is this received wisdom malarkey...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:20 PM

Let me try and put things simply in a way that some may understand.

If a block of countries buys 1000 of one product it will get a better price than if it only buys 500 of that product. Economies of scale.

Thus if the EU buy 1000 of a product for £100 each they get a good deal.

However if one country drops out of the EU and the EU only buys 900 of that product the price will increase slightly, for example to £105 per item.

If the one country that has dropped out of the EU wants to buy only 100 of that product the cost to them will be higher because they are not buying as many. The cost to them may be £120 per item.

Very simple economics that anyone should be able to comprehend.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:27 PM

How does anyone on planet Earth actually KNOW that joining the euro would have been bad for this country?

Born with a caul, like the Professor & several others here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:31 PM

What will Brexit mean for British trade?

Outside the EU, the UK will need to strike new deals in order to have free trade with those countries or the remaining EU members.

What sort of trade agreement will we have with Europe?

That depends on what kind of deal the UK was trying to strike.

After decades of EU membership UK business regulations are already heavily harmonised with Europe, meaning that the UK could probably strike a very quick deal if (and it's a big 'if') it was prepared to go on applying those rules in exchange for access to the EU single market, much as Norway does today.

In practice, the UK would be more likely seek to negotiate a novel form of Free Trade Agreement, but as Pawel Swidlicki of Open Europe notes, the trade-off is between "speed and scope."

If the UK wants a broad deal, particularly one covering services, including financial services, it could take some time.

Past precedent for other deals suggests negotiations might take anywhere from four to 10 years. How long precisely might depend more on politics than economics.

German car makers and French winemakers might well be pushing for access to the UK, but given other tensions in the EU and the need for the deal to be agreed by a qualified majority vote, there would be plenty of scope for other nations to hold the process to ransom.

In the absence of a deal between the UK and the EU, the UK would then be required to follow World Trade Organisation rules on tariffs.


What will that mean?

The UK would pay tariffs on goods and services it exported into the EU, but since the UK would pay "most favoured nation" rates, that would prohibit either side imposing punitive duties and sparking a trade war.

These WTO tariffs range from 32 per cent on wine, to 4.1 per cent on liquefied natural gas, with items like cars (9.8 per cent) and wheat products (12.8 per cent) somewhere in between.

John Springford, an economist with the Centre for European Reform, the total cost of those tariffs would be large, ranging from a 2.2 per cent of GDP (40 billion pounds) to 9 per cent.

Damian Chalmers, professor of European Union law at the London School of Economics, says the bigger threat to the UK exports would not be from WTO tariffs, but other EU states imposing new regulations and other "non-tariff barriers" to keep UK services out.

What about UK striking trade deals with other big economies?

This is eminently possible, but is likely to take time. Having ceded responsibility for trade policy to the EU, the UK civil service may lack the capacity to strike major trade deals quickly.

It is also possible, as David Cameron argues, that other countries will want to see what terms the UK receives in Europe before committing to their own deal, potentially leading to further delays.

A larger question will be about the UK's bargaining power with countries whose domestic politics push them towards protectionism, not free trade. Professor Chalmers warns that striking trade deals with major economies such as the US, China and India would be "tough" for Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:34 PM

Oops, forgot to attribute that. It's from the Daily Torygraph from last February.   The point of posting it was to disabuse Keith of his fantasy that this is going to be so easy-peasy. Au contraire: we're stuffed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:54 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:20 PM
Let me try and put things simply in a way that some may understand.
If a block of countries buys 1000 of one product it will get a better price than if it only buys 500 of that product. Economies of scale.
Thus if the EU buy 1000 of a product for ?100 each they get a good deal.
However if one country drops out of the EU and the EU only buys 900 of that product the price will increase slightly, for example to ?105 per item.
If the one country that has dropped out of the EU wants to buy only 100 of that product the cost to them will be higher because they are not buying as many. The cost to them may be ?120 per item.
Very simple economics that anyone should be able to comprehend.

Yes, very simple.

What is missing is that if the trading bloc imposes on those imports an import tariff, then any breakaway member of that bloc can purchase the goods more cheaply (despite 'economies of scale') because they no longer need to impose a tariff on the imports.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 08:09 PM

As long as they've done a deal, Nigel, as long as they've done a deal. Doing deals takes years. It isnt the wild west out there, you know, where you stand on a street corner shouting your price and coming down all the time. How long do you think we've got to get all these deals in place, Nigel? Knowing as we do that our civil servants, both in numbers and in negotiating skills, are not up to the job?

I note that Johnson has tried to save face over the bus slogan issue by publicly broadcasting that he was going to ask a private cabinet meeting for a hundred million a week for the NHS. Not £350 million, one notes, a number that will never be achieved despite the promise on the bus. But he was shot down unanimously (except for Gove - heheh) by his colleagues for going large. Some were even calling for his sacking. And these are the people who are supposed to be running the country and leading us to brexit. Be very afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 08:11 PM

Apostrophe violence again. Tsk.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 08:23 PM

Steve Shaw has previously stated that he has problems creating links (despite the link maker below the posting box)
Here is a link to the article he appears to be quoting from the Daily Telegraph (not some other title which he thinks is appropriate):
what will Brexit mean for British trade?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 08:52 PM

I don't have problems because I don't try to make them. This is supposed to be a place where we discuss issues, not post endless links to our favourite rags, often (routinely in the case of one tedious poster) unsupported by additional comments as why the link was provided and what the bits relevant to the conversation are, let alone how the link is supposed to support their case. In fact, I don't open the vast majority of links given here. I do happen to watch the news, read it online and read newspapers. If someone says something I have my doubts about, I look it up. If I find something that supports a point I want to make I can copy and paste the relevant parts. Quite often, when I do try to open links, either they don't work, I have to pay to read all of it or log in to something I'm not a subscriber to. I think that if you make a link like that you're bloody rude. Tell us what you think, not what your favourite Tory rag thinks. Not linking is a small affliction. Not thinking is far more major, and it's distressingly common on this forum. I don't know why you bothered wasting your time linking to something I've already extensively quoted, highlighted and attributed. Seems to be a case of not-thinking syndrome to me. And if you don't like my rather appropriate retitling of the Daily Torygraph (not one of my originals as it happens), either keep it to yourself or let's instead hear you going for the jugular of all those who refer to the Daily Heil and the Grauniad (capital G or small, we see it all). I never hear it from you. So your persistent singling-out behaviour makes you a stalker. Tsk. Find another hobby, Nigel, preferably one that involves thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 04:15 AM

Steve,
As long as they've done a deal, Nigel, as long as they've done a deal. Doing deals takes years.

No. It is perfectly acceptable for a country to not impose tariffs.
No deal is required.
We do not have to impose them on say food, clothes and footwear.

Dave,
Interesting that this is what I have been saying should happen in an ethical world but one of your fellow brexiteers is saying that what really happens is that the companies in question will just use the savings to maximise profits. So, sadly, no savings on Steve's shirts and pants at all

At the moment we have to impose tariffs on non-EU clothes and that charge is added to the price.
When they are removed, obviously importers could charge what they want, but they would be fools to not take advantage and undercut the competition.
Steve's supermarket shirts and pants will be cheaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 04:56 AM

Steve's supermarket shirts and pants will be cheaper.

Undoubtedly due to George's largesse in passing the saving on tariffs on to the consumer or because Mountain Warehouse is a philanthropic organisation.

I wish I had a rose coloured crystal ball.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 05:15 AM

Nigel, my example is meant to show how a supplier works, if a supplier is selling a lower number of items the costs will (normally) be higher. Tariffs do not enter the equation in this instance.

The UK as a customer will not enjoy the same pricing structure as the EU bloc because we as a single nation have a lower spending power and thus (normally) our prices for the same goods will be higher.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 05:36 AM

From my Daily Torygraph quoted piece, no link required (so happy to annoy you, Niggly Nigel), for Keith's delectation:

"What will Brexit mean for British trade?

Outside the EU, the UK will need to strike new deals in order to have free trade with those countries or the remaining EU members."

Gosh, Keith, are you seriously telling us that you disagree with your mouthpiece-in-print? And, once again, let me remind you that repeating a lie over and over again never makes it true (even if it's the one about Mexico paying for a wall or £350 million per week going to the NHS).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 05:39 AM

"Undoubtedly due to George's largesse in passing the saving on tariffs on to the consumer or because Mountain Warehouse is a philanthropic organisation.

I wish I had a rose coloured crystal ball."

If my Asda pants do come down you'll be able to admire both mine, Dave.

Moving swiftly on (if we really must...)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:08 AM

"I don't have problems because I don't try to make them. This is supposed to be a place where we discuss issues, not post endless links to our favourite rags, often (routinely in the case of one tedious poster)"

Wot abaaht this then? Surely the above is a prime example of a partial truth. Allow me to illustrate:

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 06:25 AM
I've been ridiculed for not being able to do this stuff. My problem is usually that I can't work out what the actual bit in the newspaper (etc.) article is that's supposed to form the link I want. I hate having to keep saying "Google this" but it's better than nothing I reckon. I did one this morning in the post-brexit thread (easy, tigers, it's where angels fear to tread) to an article that was in the Guardian in September. But where's the bit that's supposed to make the link?
Stupidly yours, Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM

And Keith, old chap, go back and have a gander at Jim's link from 23 Jan 18 - 10:06 AM, the one that said NO TARIFFS WOULD BREAK WTO RULES. one that I did happen to open. Acquaint yourself with the brutal realities of a little country out there on its own trying to do deals in the hostile world of big trading blocs. A suggestion for you: now that UKIP's gorn tits up: why don't you and Nigel start a new party? You could call it the Party of Little England Bravefaces. Join the PLEBs!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:33 AM

Well, Iains, that was then and this is now. Having watched you post interminable links, usually disgusting right-wing ones, often multiple, usually irrelevant to the chat, often unopenable or something I can't read unless I sign my life away to some rag, often simply mystifying as to why you've posted them and routinely not backed up with reasons for giving them, regularly unquoted from, uniquely in your case occasionally even contradicting your supposed argument, I've decided that the requisite learning curve for making links is a bridge too far (hi, Boris). I'm fine being a little discriminating as to what I quote and I'll copy and paste the relevant bits, and always tell you where I got it from so that you can check that I'm not cherrypicking. Personally, I think that I work harder than you in order to make my sources relevant to the discussion to hand. I'm fed up of clicking on links, frankly, and getting pop-up ads and cookie warnings all over the place. My approach to this is cleaner than yours, more courteous and generally nicer to everybody. So sod off.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM

I don't know why you bothered wasting your time linking to something I've already extensively quoted, highlighted and attributed. Seems to be a case of not-thinking syndrome to me. And if you don't like my rather appropriate retitling of the Daily Torygraph

If a "well educated scientist" thinks that saying something was in the "Torygraph" in February is an accurate attribution, then standards have slipped badly.
An attribution should accurately identify the original source.
Better yet, a UTR (blue clicky link) would be even better.
Clearly you are a little confused about whether you are capable of creating links though.

I've no problems with referring to the paper as The Torygraph. I use the term myself. But it is not accurate to use it as an attribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:58 AM

Steve,
Outside the EU, the UK will need to strike new deals in order to have free trade with those countries or the remaining EU members."

Gosh, Keith, are you seriously telling us that you disagree with your mouthpiece-in-print?

No. Free trade with a country requires a deal, but we are free to not apply tariffs on any commodity we choose, such as food and clothes, as long as we do not discriminate between countries.
Read Jim's link again in the light of what I have explained again.

You are extraordinarily slow at learning these basic facts about trade Steve.
Have you got it now?
Does your new understanding alter your views?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 07:05 AM

Steve,
How does anyone on planet Earth actually KNOW that joining the euro would have been bad for this country?

Here is what Guardian says about us not joining,
"A jolly good thing too, of course. The euro has proved to be exactly the job-destroying, recession-creating, undemocratic monster the doubters always warned it would be. This was not the received wisdom on the left at the time, when to suggest that the euro would be supercharged monetarism, Thatcherism with knobs on, was deemed unseemly. People who liked the euro were civilised, supported the arts, went to Tuscany or the Dordogne for their holidays. People who didn't like the euro drove white vans decorated with the flag of St George.

Today, it is hard to find even the most fervent euro enthusiasts in the Liberal Democrat party arguing for UK membership of the single currency. Disillusionment with what was once called "the Project" is almost total in the face of grinding austerity, a double-dip recession that has already lasted 18 months and a jobless rate of 12.2% and rising."
https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2013/jun/02/britain-euro-what-if-joined

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 07:18 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 08:52 PM
I don't have problems because I don't try to make them. This is supposed to be a place where we discuss issues, not post endless links to our favourite rags, often (routinely in the case of one tedious poster) unsupported by additional comments as why the link was provided and what the bits relevant to the conversation are, let alone how the link is supposed to support their case.

So instead you copy/paste a long screed unsupported by additional comments as why the copy/paste was provided and what the bits relevant to the conversation are, let alone how the copy/post is supposed to support your case

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:12 AM

If you don't like my way of doing things, stick it up your bum, Nigel, please. Now move on, stalker. I'll shop you if you carry on. Join the debate instead. I must have posted about twenty times more personal opinion on Brexit here than you have, I don't need to resort to constant unqualified links and I can well live without your constant pettifogging niggling.   

Incidentally, I admit to forgetting to put the precise date on the Telegraph piece (note that, for the benefit of the educationally-disadvantaged such as Nigel who must have it spelled correctly so that they're not in danger of mistaking it for something else, I've called it by its proper name this once), though I did give the month and year. Sorry about that. I'm sure Nigel's helpful "correction" has included it. I haven't checked, and I won't be doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:41 AM

I see the "well educated scientist/botanist,ex teacher" is getting a little needled.
    I think expressions such as "sod off" and "stick it up your bum" rather detracts from your argument of being well educated. It certainly confirms you are rather common. I believe "two cheeks of the same unwashed arse" is another of your favourite sayings. You seem to have an anal fixation.
Is that why you write so much shit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 09:01 AM

Well done Iains, yet another erudite post, pertaining strictly to the subject matter ................... I think not.

David Davis has yet again come under pressure not only from the Labour ranks and those of the SNP but even his own colleagues. Isn't it good to know that the ruling party is as one with each other. Yet another example of the mess we are in.

David Davis awkward moments

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 09:07 AM

" I think expressions such as "sod off" and "stick it up your bum" rather detracts from your argument "
Somewhat rich from someone who has been a serial abuser since he first joined this forum
"A fine example of both trolling and jimmy the twerps "made up shit"
"This is quite unlike your goodself and jimmy who can rightly claim to be leading gobshites."
"Perhaps you rats could explain to jimmy - he seems to have a problem with such basic concepts."
Took me less than a minute to dig those out
Want more?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 09:35 AM

Is little jimmy trying to close another thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 09:43 AM

Here we go again:
From: Steve Shaw
If you don't like my way of doing things, stick it up your bum, Nigel, please. Now move on, stalker. I'll shop you if you carry on. Join the debate instead. I must have posted about twenty times more personal opinion on Brexit here than you have, I don't need to resort to constant unqualified links and I can well live without your constant pettifogging niggling.   

I'm not stalking you, just pointing out your errors, lest people start to believe the unsupported claims that you often make.

"I'll shop you". Is that like "If you don't leave me alone I'll run and tell my mum"?

And yes, you have posted lots of personal opinion in this thread. Most of the time attempting to pass it off as fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:27 AM

UK Employment Hits Joint Highest Level since 1971, Pound (GBP) Exchange Rates Rally.

Not false news but fact. With a link to support it(how annoying for some)

Roll on Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:50 AM

Nigel, you are pointing out MY "errors" almost to the exclusion of anyone else's (especially those of your own cabal, which includes you, Keith and Iains, in case you need your allies spelled out for you as well as the names of newspapers). In most cases you are pointing out things that are either pedantic points or pettifogging little things. Now you are even resorting to Iains' stunt of making great play of my reluctance to do clickable links, notwithstanding that I always provide my sources and support them with comments of my own. That is obsessive behaviour, Nigel, which contributes zilch to the matter to hand (normal for you, I've noticed), and it's obsessive behaviour that is directed at one person overwhelmingly. That is the very epitome of stalking. Cop yerself on, Nigel. Oops, "yourself" that should be. Don't want you wondering what I mean, do we now?

As for a David Davis and his difficulties, I noticed that he's developed a sort of nervous belly-laugh for when he's cornered. Michel Barnier must think he's a real hoot.

Iains, you're just jealous because of your own lack of education, something you reveal here all too often. You clearly learned how to express that jealousy from your long-gone mentor, whom God preserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:50 AM

True Iains, just remind me what the exchange rates were before the Brexit vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:56 AM

The exchange rate against the dollar is strong because the dollar is weak. The exchange rate against the euro is still as flat as a witch's tit. Unemployment is low because many millions of workers are either "self-employed" (meaning that the people they work for don't have to provide holiday pay, sick pay, maternity pay or national insurance), or on zero-hours contracts, or on bogus apprenticeships, or part-time whether they like it or not, or temporary, or seasonal. This all explains why productivity is so weak. Comment is free but facts are sacred.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:02 AM

"At the same time, the pound may stumble tomorrow as CBI’s latest distributive trades index is expected to report that UK retail activity slowed this month."

(From the Daily Liar - oops, sorry, Nigel, Daily Express. Even your far-right brexiteer mates have their doubts).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:09 AM

The exchange rate against the euro is still as flat as a witch's tit.

2 hours ago,
"The GBP/EUR exchange rate has been range bound for some time now but it's current surge means it could be about to break out.
Pound Sterling has risen strongly versus the Euro with one Pound going from buying only 1.1324 Euros at the open of Wednesday's trading, to buying 1.1476 at the time of writing just after noon.
This represents a 0.8% rise - a move of this size is rare for this usually conservative currency pair."
https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/eur/8377-the-pound-to-euro-reaches-key-make-or-break-level

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:10 AM

Raggytash it has been explained many times that prior to the brexit vote the pound was over valued and already undergoing correction long before the date of the referendum. If you wish to delude yourself and blame a natural correction on brexit there is little I can do to help you. The explanations exist on this forum, the required links, and the graphs.It is all there. All you need to do is read it.
"Iains, you're just jealous because of your own lack of education,"


Unlike you shaw I do not feel a need to boast about my education.
You merely betray your constant insecurity by constantly harping on about it.
By the way, are you a well educated scientist, a botanist, or ex teacher? You have an ego big enough to compete with God, Christ only knows why!
Here is a link to diminish your pig ignorance.


/mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=14638

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:20 AM

Well done, Iains. Just goes to show that even those educated by Jesuits cannot do blue clickies :-D

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:26 AM

The only voice I have heard suggesting the pound was over valued prior to Brexit has been yours Iains.

For some considerable time before the Brexit vote the pound was trading in excess of 1.30 Euro, it had reached a high eighteen months before that in excess of 1.40 Euro.

Currencies do not trade overvalued for prolonged periods. Can you find a source I can trust which maintains the pound was overvalued because frankly I don't trust your opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:27 AM

BTW - You need to edit the link so it does not include 2 'mudcat.org's

https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=14638

Instead of

https://mudcat.org/mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=14638

I'll let Nigel explain the niceties. He is obvioyusly the master of the URL

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:49 AM

Raggytash nitpick with a graph


https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/bank-of-england-spot/historical-spot-exchange-rates/gbp/GBP-to-EUR


Dave I was only linking to the little ditty. Frequently older links no longer link. Not much point in pointing that out because our resident "scientist?" boasts he never opens them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 12:14 PM

Iains the links do work: Thread 14638 but that is indeed an old thread. There is now a tool for making blue clickies immediately below the reply box.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:12 PM

Oh but I do open them, Iains. Sometimes. I never said never (we educated chaps learned reading skills, you know). I just tried your first effort there. 404 not found. After all you said. Bwahahaha! Told you, didn't I, chaps! He don't need no educashun, he ain't got no thought control, don't see value in the classroom, Oi, Stevie! This guy's brain's a bone! Now where's me sandals...

Well, Keith, here's my prediction. The pound's about to soar down again against the euro. You'll see. As a matter of fact it's already losing today's gains quite impressively. And there's nothing rare about movements in a day or two of a cent or less. Look it up and don't believe all you read.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:13 PM

BTW - You need to edit the link so it does not include 2 'mudcat.org's
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=14638
Instead of
https://mudcat.org/mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=14638
I'll let Nigel explain the niceties. He is obviously the master of the URL

You don't even need that much. Including "https://mudcat.org/" routes the search via the world wide web. the link to find is just "thread.cfm?threadid=14638". That will do the search within the Mudcat site.

Why do people read out the abbreviation 'www' as "double you double you double you"?
Nine syllables instead of the three for "world wide web". I thought abbreviations made things shorter.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:17 PM

Tools making blue clickies? I should coco!

Oops, misread that. Tools FOR making blue clickies. Well slap ma wrist. At least, I suppose that our right-wing contingent in deep and earnest wrangles about their clickies keeps them off the streets. The right-wingers, that is, not the clickies...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:39 PM

Pound gone down half a cent in a few hours this affy, Keith. *Sigh,* eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:13 PM

Interesting that the fall after the vote is nothing to do with Brexit but the rise seems to be, if that is what the "Roll on Brexit" post was intended to mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 04:41 PM

Iains I don't need to nitpick with the graph. The graph tells it all for everyone to see.

Immediately after the Brexit vote the pound slumped against the Euro (and the Dollar) it has not, as yet, recovered.

It has persistently traded at less than 10% against the Euro of it's previous value.

(I've used this figure so you cannot argue semantics about precise rates)

The fall was caused by one reason, and one reason only, and that was that the UK government decided to extract themselves from the EU.

Can I suggest you take another look at the exchange rates both before, during, and after the Brexit debacle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 05:08 PM

But Raggytash, he's a member of the Party of the Little England Bravefaces. He's officially a Pleb!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 05:10 PM

Raggytash you are going around in circles. Do you sing about "the wheels on the bus" as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 05:42 PM

Nah. We're down to Two Wheels On My Wagon. Another wheel is about to drop off, and David Davis thinks that a toy digger he bought from from Morrisons at Christmas is a trolley jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:22 AM

See, I told you he would explain it. He even knows how people pronounce things just by reading them.

Amazing!

BTW - If you are being pedantic about not needing the www because that is the default then you do not really need the https or http either because that is also implied.

To get to the thread in question you just need to put

mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=14638 or, better still as you would not even need to do a DNS lookup

96.89.184.237/thread.cfm?threadid=14638


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:10 AM

To get to the thread in question you just need to put
mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=14638 or, better still as you would not even need to do a DNS lookup
96.89.184.237/thread.cfm?threadid=14638

Wrong again.

If you are linking to Mudcat (from within Mudcat) you do NOT need to identify the mudcat site in your link. just include what comes after the "/" (as I stated above). Links from outside Mudcat do require more.
To link to this thread, all that is required inside the angled brackets is (without the quotes) "a href=thread.cfm?threadid=162855"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:59 AM

To link to this thread, all that is required inside the angled brackets is (without the quotes) "a href=thread.cfm?threadid=162855"

Not if you are C&P'g the link into the address bar. If you are linking from another window you need the host name segment. If you use the address bar, you need the host name segment. If you are linking from within Mudcat's link maker it does not matter whether you put it in or not. So, to ensure that your link will work from wherever you put it, it is a good idea to use the host name or address.

So, not wrong at all. Just different ways of doing the same thing. The method I displayed works from anywhere. Yours only works from within Mudcat. And you don't need to put the 'a href=' in the link maker. It does it for you.

2/10 for effort.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:17 AM

Don't stop now, Dave. At this rate you could keep the PLEBs occupied until after brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:29 AM

Latest quote from David Cameron @ Davos, caught on camera by Channel 5 News, and reported in this morning's Metro:
Re Brexit: "As I keep saying, It's a mistake, not a disaster" . . . "It's turned out less badly than we first thought. But it's still going to be difficult."

This from the architect of 'Project Fear'.
Maybe, if he hadn't been so quick to 'jump ship' he might be dealing with this better than Theresa May.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:39 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 10:27 AM
Jim, if I did say that (I don't remember), I was being sarcastic: it wasn't me calling people plebs, it was me characterising the leavers as treating people like gullible plebs. I can be a bit subtle for some of these eejits, you know.

If it wasn't Steve calling people 'plebs' before, it certainly is now.

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 05:08 PM
But Raggytash, he's a member of the Party of the Little England Bravefaces. He's officially a Pleb!

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:17 AM
Don't stop now, Dave. At this rate you could keep the PLEBs occupied until after brexit...

And I object to being called a 'little Englander'. I owe no allegiance to England.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:42 AM

And before you claim it's an acronym, it's your own invention as a means to use the term 'plebs'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:11 AM

From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:26 AM
The only voice I have heard suggesting the pound was over valued prior to Brexit has been yours Iains.
For some considerable time before the Brexit vote the pound was trading in excess of 1.30 Euro, it had reached a high eighteen months before that in excess of 1.40 Euro.
Currencies do not trade overvalued for prolonged periods. Can you find a source I can trust which maintains the pound was overvalued because frankly I don't trust your opinion.

Perhaps you would consider the IMF and Governor of the bank of England as credible sources?

From Here, dated 17 Oct 2016
In February, the International Monetary Fund said the sterling was overvalued by somewhere between 5% and 15% in 2015. Just before the referendum, the IMF put the over-valuation slightly higher, saying that sterling was overvalued by between 5% and 20% in 2015. Other experts, like the former governor of the Bank of England and the IMF, have agreed that sterling was overvalued.
On 14 October, the effective exchange rate was 18% below the average for 2015. That's the value of sterling compared to a range of other currencies used by the UK's most important trading partners. If nothing had changed since the IMF's recommendations were made, it could mean sterling was now undervalued.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:18 AM

Steve,
Pound gone down half a cent in a few hours this affy, Keith. *Sigh,* eh?

It fluctuates constantly of course, but you said it was "as flat as a witch's tit."
In fact it is creeping up, this week anyway.
1 hour ago,
"Ahead Of First ECB Rate Meeting Of 2018
Modified: Jan 25, 2018
Written by Colin Lawrence
The Euro has plummeted against the dominant Pound today, ahead of a key ECB monetary policy meeting."
https://www.exchangerates.org.uk/news/20323/eurgbp-exchange-rate-news-and-five-day-currency-predictions-forecast.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:18 AM

Gosh, Nigel, you're so quick.

As for Camoron, he's visited the greatest disaster on this country since WW2. He needs to shut up and go away.

"It's a mistake, not a disaster..." In the immortal words of Mandy Rice-Davies, he would say that, wouldn't he?

And I'll save you a piece of pre-snipe research: I know that isn't what she really said.

Ok, Nigel?

Oh, and when I said Camoron, I meant Cameron. Just so's not to leave you confused. Now excuse me as I haven't read the Grauniad yet.

Er...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:28 AM

I am still waiting for the government to announce how the government will guarantee 100% of the rights under EU membership forever. Or are they content to let 27% of the population DICTATE to the other 63%.

The rights include:

(1) Adopt without question all future EU legislation and regulation without question where it is socially beneficial.
(2) Apply structural and cohesion resources according to EU criteria
(3) Guarantee zero additional costs as a result from not being part of the custom union/single market at no cost to the taxpayer.
(4) Not to amend any law or regulation until the change has been ratified by a referendum on each individual change at zero cost to the taxpayer.
(5) To pay back the equivalent of the exiting costs including the wages of the leeches in the civil service who are involved in the process to local authorities to fund services to reverse austerity cuts.
(6) Ditto for the cost of any leeches that are employed to increase border control staffing.

for now, I don't have time to add the other hundred or so provisos.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:29 AM

You cherrypicked that article, Keith. Read it again then tell us why you chose not to quote the very last section of it. Why oh why do you do this kind of thing, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:42 AM

So, the pound is "creeping up" whereas the euro is "plummeting!" Talk about having it both ways!

I bought a hundred quid's worth of euros yesterday afternoon to put on my Caxton card. Had I done it this morning, i.e., right now, I'd have got nearly half a cent less for each pound. If things go the same way today, that'll be enough gained in 24 hours to pay for un caffe next time I'm in Italy!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:53 AM

"But Raggytash, he's a member of the Party of the Little England Bravefaces. He's officially a Pleb!"
Recognise your posting below Shaw?
More of your constant wittering of "Do as I say,not as I do!"

"Try sticking to the issues. You?re making a fool of yourself. Please take this as a polite early warning that your recent posting behaviour is being archived. Any more of it and I?ll complain,"

Anyway the path to European unity and happiness keeps finding potholes:


https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/the-fight-for-europe-is-now-between-east-and-west/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_c

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:56 AM

From: SPB-Cooperator - PM
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:28 AM

I am still waiting for the government to announce how the government will guarantee 100% of the rights under EU membership forever. Or are they content to let 27% of the population DICTATE to the other 63%.

The rights include:

(1) Adopt without question all future EU legislation and regulation without question where it is socially beneficial.
(2) Apply structural and cohesion resources according to EU criteria
(3) Guarantee zero additional costs as a result from not being part of the custom union/single market at no cost to the taxpayer.
(4) Not to amend any law or regulation until the change has been ratified by a referendum on each individual change at zero cost to the taxpayer.
(5) To pay back the equivalent of the exiting costs including the wages of the leeches in the civil service who are involved in the process to local authorities to fund services to reverse austerity cuts.
(6) Ditto for the cost of any leeches that are employed to increase border control staffing.

for now, I don't have time to add the other hundred or so provisos.

That could be a very long wait.
No-one that I know of is promising those things. Also we have the basis that one parliament cannot bind a future parliament, so any promises made now could be overturned in future.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:02 AM

Nigel, what you omit to mention was that for much of 2015 the pound was trading at level above 1.35 Euro to the pound, rising as high as 1.44 Euro to the pound at one stage.

It seems that you cannot except that immediately after the Brexit vote the value of the pound plummeted. It has not, as yet, recovered and although the recent modest rise is observable, there is no guarantee it will stay that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:37 AM

Raggytash:
I was responding to your request to show that anyone other than Iains believed the pound was previously over valued.

The link I gave showed the opinions of the IMF & the Governor of the Bank of England.
That link was dated 17/10/16, since which time the pound has recovered a little of its value (at 17/10/16 1.106), and constantly traded above that level, apart from a short period in August 2017.

I accept that the value fell after the Brexit vote, but that was because it was overvalued anyway. The Brexit vote just provided sufficient instability to make it an ideal opportunity to re-adjust.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 08:03 AM

Nigel, the last time the pound consistently traded at around the current level was back in 2011, you cannot seriously believe it was over-valued for 5 years

................ can you?

(note there was a brief drop down to the current level in Aug 2013 that lasted about a week)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 08:55 AM

I'm not claiming it was overvalued for the whole of that time. But it was only in Jan 2015 that it started to go above a rate of 1.3 (unless you go back to 2008).

But you must realise (well, should realise) that looking at a graph of the exchange rate between the Pound & the Euro does not actually tell you much about the 'real' value of the Pound. That is why the page I linked to commented on comparing Sterling to 'a range of currencies'.
If the Pound rate improves when looking at the Pound/Euro exchange rate, it can mean either that the Pound is doing well, or the Euro is doing badly (or a bit of both).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:44 AM

Well the amount of euros I can get for my hundred quid with Caxton has slipped by a third of a cent per quid since a couple of hours ago. That's on top of that nearly half a cent slip I mentioned between when I bought them yesterday up to this morning. The pound is soaring down again.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 10:01 AM

This afternoon I can get 1.13949 Euro's to the pound, Tourist rate I do understand, and not the official exchange rate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 10:32 AM

Steve,
You cherrypicked that article, Keith. Read it again then tell us why you chose not to quote the very last section of it.

because that last section was just guesses about the future.
All the other sections were hard facts in line with the quote I gave.
That is why I did not cherry pick the last section (like you did.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 10:33 AM

"Try sticking to the issues. You?re making a fool of yourself. Please take this as a polite early warning that your recent posting behaviour is being archived. Any more of it and I?ll complain,"

Did someone really post that? lololololololol!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:28 AM

Pray tell Bobad, what has your post got to do with Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:37 AM

I read the whole bloody thing, Keith, and noticed that last bit that was unfavourable to your case. Asking why you failed to mention it isn't me cherrypicking!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:41 AM

Because that last section was just guesses about the future.
All the other sections were hard facts in line with the quote I gave.
That is why I did not cherry pick the last section (like you did.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:42 AM

"This afternoon I can get 1.13949 Euro's to the pound, Tourist rate I do understand, and not the official exchange rate."

Where are you getting that, Raggytash? That's two and a half cents better then Caxton, who are rarely bettered!

My current Caxton rate is 1.1150, which is over a cent lower than when I bought my dosh yesterday afternoon. The pound continues its downward soar, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM

As a matter of fact, all the other sections were not just hard facts. There are plenty of predictions and conjecture in there. Please don't make me quote them. We can all read. To be kind, you also can read but you do have an extra-special skill on top, that of deliberately misrepresenting things in favour of your argument and hoping we won't notice. Very Wheatcroftesque of you. Anyway, the pound is falling. Put that in your pipe and inhale it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM

The pound continues its downward soar, Keith.
The figures don't appear to support your claim.
Maybe you're just using a poor supplier.
Exchange rates graph

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:09 PM

The best rate I can find online is 1.13 exactly, but you have to pay by bank transfer only and you pay five quid for delivery unless you buy £700 worth. I buy my holiday money in smaller amounts than that, keeping a hawkish eye on daily rates, by loading my prepaid Caxton card via an app.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:12 PM

Wrong, Nigel. Have another look at the graph in your link and click on the 12-hour time frame. The pound has had a bad day today. Unarguable I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:24 PM

3 hours ago,
"The GBP/EUR exchange rate has risen sharply over the course of the past 24 hours and finds itself at 1.1457 having gone as high as 1.1493 at one point earlier in the day.
The exchange rate opened the day at 1.1383, the strength of the move confirms the UK currency currently enjoys positive momentum and on this basis we would expect further advances."
https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/eur/8377-the-pound-to-euro-reaches-key-make-or-break-level

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:53 PM

"Three hours ago" my arse, Keith. That was last modified at 0739 this morning and it is now over TEN hours past that. Bad day for the pound, even worse day for your timekeeping.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:07 PM

There is very little point in trying to make an argument from short term volatility of the pound euro exchange rate when merely measured over hours. It is the trend that is all important.
A well educated scientist/biologist should know better than most that "one swallow does not a summer make".


http://uk.businessinsider.com/european-central-bank-monetary-policy-decisions-for-january-2018-1

Having a strong currency is not a win win situation apart from those wealthy pensioners taking endless over seas vacations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:14 PM

Above, in regard to the amendments to the Withdrawal Bill (2nd reading) I said I wrote [to my MP] earlier in the week ...
I do not expect anything very productive in response, but it seemed the least I could do.

I have just received his response, and it is even more underwhelming than I anticipated. Here is my original email and his response:

--------
I am sure you will agree that this Withdrawal Bill is one of the most important of the session, and it will have implications lasting many years.

I happened to be able to watch the televised debates and was unable to see you in the chamber. Please assure me that you were present for the debates, not simply the votes. If you were not present but occupied on other business, I would be pleased to hear what it was and why you regard it as more significant.

------------

And here is his reply in full:

Dear Mr McGlade

Thank you for your email.

My duties are many and varied. I don't spend all my time in the chamber.

Regards

Royston Smith MP

-------------

I think we can safely translate "don't spend all my time" as "didn't spend any time" as far as this bill is concerned. And as for explaining why his other duties were more important, well, he seems to have accidentally forgotten that...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:14 PM

He is just there to trough the scran!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:54 PM

That was a disgraceful and arrogant response from your MP, DMcG.

But Iains, he's one of you!

I haven't passed any comment about the pros and cons of either a weak or strong currency. The recent argument here is more about what's actually happening to the pound vs the euro right now. Yes, one swallow does not a summer make. But the pound has been hovering around its current level for many months now, give or take a few cents here and there. You attack for the sake of attacking. A little more attention to the skill of reading passed on to you by well-educated teachers wouldn't come amiss and would help you to focus on what's actually being said here instead of what you wish had been said so that you can go into attack mode.

And, as a matter of fact, a strong pound makes buying foreign goods cheaper. It isn't just those wealthy pensioners, whoever they are - it certainly isn't the majority of them - who benefit (they have actually suffered from ten-year rock-bottom savings rates). A sudden weakening of the pound, as we've seen, causes an inflationary bubble, and that's happened at a time when pay hasn't kept up. No black and white here, but some stability would be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:22 PM

"they have actually suffered from ten-year rock-bottom savings rates)"

I am more than happy to have rock bottom savings rates if it saves younger house owners from the horror of 13%+ mortgage rates that I and many others had to put up with for a period.
Also If you look at historical exchange rates since the euro was introduced stability has not really occurred, volatility is the name of the game. Historic lows occurred in 2009 that have not yet been equalled. All those currency traders hate stability, it must erode their margins.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:56 PM

Of course. But those wealthy pensioners of yours have been hit by a double whammy, low savings rates and a weak pound, and, on top of that, the old age pension in this country is one of the worst in the developed world. Look it up anywhere you like if you don't believe me. They won't be taking quite as many of those foreign holidays this year. Joining their ranks in years to come will be pensioners who will not only have worked to the point of exhaustion as pensionable ages go up and up but who will also have far poorer works pensions than were enjoyed by earlier generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 01:38 AM

Steve,
"Three hours ago" my arse, Keith. That was last modified at 0739 this morning and it is now over TEN hours past that. Bad day for the pound, even worse day for your timekeeping.

The search engine said 3 hours so it must have been revised.
It is now shown as 16 hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 02:21 AM

A bit off topic, but worth being aware of. While search engines trawl the net it takes time. So times shown in search engines tend to be when the search engine saw the article, not when the article was written. It is why you sometimes see "5 minutes ago" on an article months old.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM

The information that was given in the link accorded with its having been supplied early yesterday morning. That was pretty obvious as soon as I read it.

Anyway, the bottom line is that the pound is languishing this morning at the level it's been at for about the last four or five months. The rate I can get from Caxton this morning for my holiday money is a cent and a half lower than when I bought some less than 48 hours ago. One swallow clearly did not a summer make.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:40 AM

One argument advanced for currency instability is political uncertainty.
So the argument follows that those that cannot accept the democratic vote for brexit are directly responsible for the present gyrations of the pound.
It is of course but one of many factors influencing exchange rates. The one that is dominant is a mute point.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:52 AM

So the argument follows that those that cannot accept the democratic vote for brexit are directly responsible for the present gyrations of the pound.

Only in the world of Lewis Carroll

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean?neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master?that's all.?

Following your logic, those who complain about the present government are responsible for demise of the health service and those who hated Clive Dunn's 'Grandad' were responsible for it reaching number 1!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:14 AM

The biggest recent "gyration" of the pound by a country mile took place immediately after the pro-brexit vote, so don't blame me! In fact, if you go back to Nigel's graph and click on the one-year tab you'll see that the pound has been pretty steady since around the end of August, with just the little flickers up and down that are typical of currency fluctuations in general. It's true that the pound essayed a slightly bigger flicker this week, but in spite of all the brave brexiteer talk of a breakthrough it's business as usual today. Interesting that when the brexiteers won the fight and the pound plunged, it's a "correction." But when those much littler "gyrations" take place, it's all the fault of us whingeing remoaners. Very entertaining!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:17 AM

Well partly the fault, just to stop my throat being jumped down.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:51 AM

On 8 October I asked 'Who will conservative leader in six months time?" to which Teribus replied " Unless the Parliamentary Conservative Party want to be out of office in quick time the leader of the Conservative Party in six months time will be Theresa May. "

Which makes the current *rumours* of Regime Change interesting. Ok, they are rumours but the division in the view of Rees-Mogg and Hammond is clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM

The Tories are still in only because there hasn't been a regime change. There is no credible alternative to the woman who is already devoid of credibility, and a regime change that puts in a similarly weak and divisive figure will immediately produce an irresistible call for a general election. I don't think anyone in our political club wants that just now, including Jeremy Corbyn, what with the poisoned chalice that comes with the PM's job. There was an interesting cri de couer on Question Time last night when there was a plea for some leadership from Corbyn, for him to speak up for what people really want, instead of his continuing with his apparently pusillanimous wait-and-see attitude. I hope it's a tactic and not something born of indecision. It comes across as paralysis. This country desperately needs an alternative to this stupid brexit steamroller. He's the only person who can provide it with any degree of effectiveness.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:38 AM

Very predictable behaviour:



https://www.fxcm.com/insights/what-causes-volatility-in-the-british-pound/
They don't like the truth at 'em. Not one little bit!(with apologies to lance corporal Jones)

D the G your jumps in logic are astounding. Did you fall through the looking glass this morning or merely smack into it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:49 AM

My jumps in logic are astounding? Neither of the scenarios I used as examples were arguments. They merely demonstrated the fact that the logic of blaming people who disagree with brexit being somehow to blame for the problems it has caused is, well, illogical. I am sure the Jesuits taught you better reasoning than this.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:50 AM

On 8 October I asked 'Who will conservative leader in six months time?"
Rees Mogg I hope. A man with a clear objective and a mission to accomplish it.

Bring it on I say!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:56 AM

I don't care what the truth is or isn't, frankly. The conversation here is not a heart-on-sleeves one about deep-rooted long-term cause and effect. We are simply describing what's happened. And one thing that happened is that the pound suddenly plunged as soon as the leave vote was confirmed. In my mind there's no doubt as to why the pound plunged, but hey-ho, we're told it was an overdue "correction." Yeah, right, not brexit's fault then! Next thing we're told is that remainers are causing the pound to wobble. Yeah, right. And your piece is over two years old, by the way. Perhaps you could explain why, in spite of a terrible election result for the Tories, terrible divisions in the ruling party and shocking and ongoing stasis in the brexit negotiations, the pound hasn't wobbled very much at all in the last four or five months. Since last August I've been looking out every single day for a good time to top up next year's holiday money. I didn't make a single move until Wednesday this week. Looks like it wasn't a bad move, but we'll see. Don't like it up 'em? Just keeping soldiering on, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:58 AM

Rees-Mogg in charge would be an absolute gift to Labour. Bring it on, say I!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:24 AM

D the G Do you not think that constantly screeching,wailing, whining, moaning remainers create political instability? Come back to planet earth!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:43 AM

"D the G Do you not think that constantly screeching,wailing, whining, moaning remainers create political instability? Come back to planet earth!"

I think you will find that most of the political instability comes from within the present Government. The Prime Minister has disowned comments made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Johnson undermining the official position on NHS funding, Rees Mogg stating that the Government is cowed by Brussels, Owen Patterson having a dig at both the Brexit Secretary and the Chancellor, Iain Duncan Smith putting his tuppence worth in, Speculation about how long Teresa May can remain in office. I could go on, that lot is just in todays papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:44 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:56 AM
I don't care what the truth is or isn't, frankly.

Yes, we'd noticed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:47 AM

Political instability doesn't get much worse than trying to oust the current leader, which is apparently being discussed by Tory MP's.

Tory Unrest

I could suggest that before you start castigating remainers you have a look at your own party, which seems to be in an ever present state of turmoil.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:52 AM

From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:47 AM
Political instability doesn't get much worse than trying to oust the current leader, which is apparently being discussed by Tory MP's.

Tory Unrest

I could suggest that before you start castigating remainers you have a look at your own party, which seems to be in an ever present state of turmoil.

I would like to argue with your viewpoint.
Unfortunately, on this occasion, it is disappointingly accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:56 AM

Thank you for your honesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:50 AM

Er, who precisely are these "we," Nigel? That was a dishonest and stalking response to a remark I made in a very narrow context, responding as I was to this:

"https://www.fxcm.com/insights/what-causes-volatility-in-the-british-pound/
They don't like the truth at 'em. Not one little bit!(with apologies to lance corporal Jones)"

You have no right to make pejorative extrapolations beyond that context. Your sniping response was opportunistic and disreputable in the extreme. I note that the truth didn't particularly matter to you yesterday, by the way, when you misinterpreted your graph to us and did not retract, in spite of your being pulled up for it. An absolute disgrace, now laced with a healthy dose of hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:23 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:50 AM

Er, who precisely are these "we," Nigel?
"We" are those who have been reading your rants for a while, and have already realised that you have only a vague acquaintance with "the truth". Often you try to change the meanings of your previous remarks by claiming they were 'whimsy'.
That was a dishonest and stalking response to a remark I made in a very narrow context,
The remark you made did not say that it was in any particular context.



You have no right to make pejorative extrapolations beyond that context.
Accepting your words, at face value is hardly an 'extrapolation'. A 'scientist' would know that an extrapolation is using a basic statement and expanding its meaning to include things not already there.

. . .
I note that the truth didn't particularly matter to you yesterday, by the way, when you misinterpreted your graph to us and did not retract, in spite of your being pulled up for it. An absolute disgrace, now laced with a healthy dose of hypocrisy.

Hardly 'my' graph. It was from a reputable website, and linked to in order that others could view its source.
My only comment on the graph was:
The pound continues its downward soar, Keith. (Steve Shaw)
The figures don't appear to support your claim.
Maybe you're just using a poor supplier. (Me)

In view of your more recent comments:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM

Anyway, the bottom line is that the pound is languishing this morning at the level it's been at for about the last four or five months. The rate I can get from Caxton this morning for my holiday money is a cent and a half lower than when I bought some less than 48 hours ago. One swallow clearly did not a summer make.
It appears I had nothing to 'retract'.

I still agree with your comment about your relationship with the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM

" Yeah, right. And your piece is over two years old, by the way. Perhaps you could explain why, in spite of a terrible election result for the Tories, terrible divisions in the ruling party and shocking and ongoing stasis in the brexit negotiations, the pound hasn't wobbled very much at all in the last four or five months."

Simples: The world knows that the economy under the mighty conservatives is in safe hands, despite bickering.

Should you wish to see extreme instability and a crash just put clot corbyn at the helm. Even he knows he is a walking disaster. Why else wargame a massive collapse of the pound should the country ever be daft enough to give him a sniff of power.
Good luck trying to find a pundit that can counter the argument against corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:05 AM

Crass tosh and nonsense Iains, a typical right wing response. Daily Heil headlines at best.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM

Silly boy!


https://www.ft.com/content/e06aa3a6-a2c5-11e7-b797-b61809486fe2

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 12:41 PM

Beneath contempt, Nigel. In future, try to follow the thread. You are so intent on picking holes in what I say that you appear not to notice anything else. Context, for example. Incidentally, your post yesterday blatantly misrepresented the graph in your link. You seem to want untrue things to be true just to get them to fit your agenda. That was a classic example. Once again you made me the target of that even though what I said was perfectly correct and so you made a complete fool of yourself. And I don't often change the meanings of my remarks claiming that they were whimsy. I've done it once and I was doling out to you the sarcasm you deserved on that occasion. Take a step back, Nigel. The target of your remarks here should be the issues we're discussing, not things picked out of posts with a magnifying glass in order to further your career in pedantry.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 12:50 PM

Beneath contempt, Nigel. In future, try to follow the thread. You are so intent on picking holes in what I say that you appear not to notice anything else. Context, for example. Incidentally, your post yesterday blatantly misrepresented the graph in your link. You seem to want untrue things to be true just to get them to fit your agenda. That was a classic example. Once again you made me the target of that even though what I said was perfectly correct and so you made a complete fool of yourself. And I don't often change the meanings of my remarks claiming that they were whimsy. I've done it once and I was doling out to you the sarcasm you deserved on that occasion. Take a step back, Nigel. The target of your remarks here should be the issues we're discussing, not things picked out of posts with a magnifying glass in order to further your career in pedantry.

What did I say about the graph that was misleading?

Once again your post is so rambling as to be almost indecipherable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 01:30 PM

"Should you wish to see extreme instability and a crash just put clot corbyn at the helm."

Why, a few hours ago you were in effect calling for him to be PM by suggesting Jacob Cream-Crackers for Tory leader! And the closest thing we've seen to extreme instability was when that mighty Tory Cameron lost the referendum and the pound plunged almost immediately by about 15%. Even Jezza couldn't match that.

I see that the Guardian/ICM poll today showed a considerable majority in favour of a second referendum. A significant number of leave supporters agreed with that. There's a very slim majority in favour of remain now. Not making a big thing of it. Just mentioning it. I have a nasty feeling that a second referendum would solve nothing. Instead of that we need a coalition of all the progressive parties campaigning for a reversal of Brexit in the interests of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 01:52 PM

"Why, a few hours ago you were in effect calling for him to be PM"

You need to modify your diet dear boy. You are hallucinating!

I think you would be surprised how much Rees Mogg could accomplish, were he to be made Premier. By the same token I think people would be gobsmacked by the level of destruction that would be achieved should the electorate ever be daft enough to let Corbyn loose with the reins of power.


Tis a rum old world. one faction will not elect the leader that will take us to the promised land, while another is hellbent on taking us into the darkside. Luckily the latter were kicked into touch after the last election.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:08 PM

Jacob Rees Mogg .......... known by his own party as the "Honourable Member for the 18th century"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:14 PM

Begod, the thread has descended into bathos...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:41 PM

Naaaaah! pathos for corbynistas.

You need a dictionary young man!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:20 PM

Bathos, mate. Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 04:10 AM

Unwarranted doomladen gloom.

Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:27 PM

I think the dream of the Brexiteers of getting 'great trade deals' with the US has been dealt a serious blow by the imposition of a 300% tariff on the aircraft which Delta were to purchase from Bombardier in NI, applied for by Boeing, who don't even build the class of aircraft that Delta ordered from Bombardier.
The Shape of Things to Come.

Stu - PM
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:07 AM

Bombardier: May 'bitterly disappointed' as US tariff puts jobs at risk
Here in the UK we're getting a little taste of life after we've left the EU following El Trumpo's decision to slap a 219% tariff on Bombardier, so jeopardising 4,000 jobs in the North of Ireland. More to the point, the government actually played this deal straight down the line, landed it fairly and squarely but still ordinary working people might suffer because of the whim of a fat orange idiot. Without influence as part of the worlds largest trading block, we're just back to being a small island with an over-inflated opinion of itself and at the mercy of the likes of Trump.
This is our world now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM

More labour delusion at Davos. How to sort out Venezuela by following the the "winning ways" of corbyn's socialism


https://order-order.com/2018/01/26/mcdonnell-tells-davos-starving-venezuela-failed-not-socialist-enough/

As victor would say:" I don't believe it!" But sadly far too many of a deluded electorate do. Some even have the temerity to post here.

And to stop the bleating yes it is reported by Guido. But I have a cunning antidote.
Here it is on youtube babble babble

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:01 AM

When will they ever learn ................When will they ever learn?

A contribution from Grumpy_Northerner

Lenin couldn’t get socialism to work, Stalin couldn’t get socialism to work, Mao couldn’t get socialism to work, Castro couldn’t get socialism to work, Pol Pot couldn’t get socialism to work, Chavez couldn’t get socialism to work ...

But stand back world and rejoice, John McDonnell, a man who was kicked off the GLC thirty years ago for financial incompetence, has cracked it, he knows how to make socialism work.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:20 AM

Interesting article in the Guardian this morning relating to a slight change in voting preference should another referendum be held. That in itself is not particularly surprising. What I did find surprising was that a much larger number believe that exiting the EU will be harmful to the Economy. What I don't comprehend is this. If you think it's going to be damaging to the economy why the hell vote for it?


Second Referendum?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:25 AM

Raggytash In the light of polls concerning voting intentions prior to brexit do you really believe that a "slight change in voting preferance" is anything other than random noise given a high ranking by a bullshit detector?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:36 AM

I'm not commenting on the slight variation Iains, it is as I said "a slight change"

What I am commenting on is that a much higher proportion believe leaving the EU will be damaging to our economy and some of those people will still vote in favour exiting the EU acknowledging it will be damaging, but are still quite happy to do so.

Look at the stats provided in the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 07:02 AM

Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot didn't even try to get socialism to work. They were murderous dictators. Show me where in socialist philosophy it says that socialist countries can be run by murderous dictators. Chavez and Castro were both seriously undermined by US foreign policy. They both got a lot of things wrong and I won't make excuses for that. But, as exercises in socialism, Venezuela and Cuba didn't stand a chance, though both those leaders tried against the odds to get some things right.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 07:13 AM

In any second referendum the leavers will have the best slogans, most likely predicated on their trump card, which will be that remainers are trying to overturn democracy, here we go again, keep having referendums until you get the answer you want... In my view that's a load of nonsense which is actually undemocratic in itself, but it will be impossible to make that argument stick in the face of populist sloganising. Brexit can only be stopped by politicians having their heads banged together and made to act in the long-term interests of this country, not the short-term tactical interests of their parties. I believe that the vast majority of MPs know that we are heading for disaster, but they are seriously trammelled by their party machines. I feel very frustrated as a Labour Party member that the party seems so paralysed, in spite of the fact that the overwhelming majority of Labour voters voted remain and nine in ten of us hundreds of thousands of members want to stay in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 09:41 AM

" I feel very frustrated as a Labour Party member that the party seems so paralysed, in spite of the fact that the overwhelming majority of Labour voters voted remain and nine in ten of us hundreds of thousands of members want to stay in the EU."

Very very very very very economical with the truth there shaw. In fact a total distortion.
30% of labour voted "on yer bike" to the EU .And to rub salt in the wound the traditional labour heartland voted come away, come away

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-7-graphs-that-explain-how-brexit-won-eu-explained-a7101676.ht

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 10:32 AM

65% of Labour voters voted remain. I call that an overwhelming majority, especially in light of the fact that I've heard things like "the British people have spoken" and "the leave side won convincingly" when they actually won the referendum by less than 52-48 and when only 38% of the electorate voted leave. My transparent and straightforward remark clearly related to an overall percentage all Labour voters and I didn't attempt any kind of regional breakdown. In addition, approximately 88% or more, depending on which survey you read, of Labour Party members voted remain. There is absolutely nothing economical with the truth about any of that, and calling it "a total distortion" is patently ridiculous. You need to learn to be civil.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 11:54 AM

Why do you constantly bring up only 38% of the electorate voted leave. Again economical with the truth. Of those that voted the majority voted leave. Those disenfranchised because they are still in nappies or could not be bothered to get out of bed are of zero consequence. Adding them to the statistics to endeavour to explain the fact you LOST fools no one. I suggest you do look at the regional breakdown. The traditional labour heartlands voted leave. How to you explain that? or will you simply put your head in the sand and pretend it is not true.
Anyway whether Labour or stalwarts of the monster raving loony party is by the by.
We won and you lost. Live with it!

You also make the ridiculous statement that 88% of labour party membership voted remain. As of June 2017, Labour had 552,000 members.
So in reality you make capital out of 88% of 1/2 million as though it is of significance. A lousy 1/2 million out of 46 million electorate.
What a pathetic argument shaw. I would expect better from a 12year old

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 12:06 PM

In glorious technicolour
and a toon to help the remainers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FscIgtDJFXg

labour constituencies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016#/media/File:United_Kingdo

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 12:11 PM

They are not arguments. They are facts. If I wish to deny that you won "convincingly," or that "the British people have spoken," then the 38% figure is perfectly legitimate grist to my mill, thank you. And you completely missed the point about the nine in ten Labour Party members who voted remain. That had nothing at all to do with the larger electorate but everything to do with the fact that the party is seriously out of sync with the membership in its brexit policy, and, to a lesser extent percentage-wise, with Labour voters. That is rip-roaringly clear from my post and it's also rip-roaringly clear that you are on a childish mission to pick fights. You did it with Raggytash in another thread and now you're doing it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 12:36 PM

No shaw. Any idiot that takes 88% of a half million sample out of 46million and tries to make some sort political point out of it is clearly away with the faeries.
I also believe I pointed out earlier on this thread that the labour leadership is committed to brexit, because as you said not so long ago discussing real politik "that they would be toast if they ignored their heartland.
Also electoral boundaries for MEPs do not always correspond to Mp's boundaries. Additionally the vote was for in or out irregardless of your political affiliations. Unlike mps there were no whips required, although you may have like to use them to get the idle out of bed on polling day.
Anyway you freely admit that you do not distinguish between fact and fiction, so in reality everything you post is meaningless.
I have no wish to know any details about the labour party thankyou.
The meanderings of Corbyn and the abbacas are sufficient tribulation for a sane person.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 12:59 PM

What a bunch of utter garbage. I made no play whatsoever of the contrast between the membership preference and the vote in the country. It's rampagingly obvious that my only point was the disconnect between the party, its membership and Labour voters. Here it is again:   

" I feel very frustrated as a Labour Party member that the party seems so paralysed, in spite of the fact that the overwhelming majority of Labour voters voted remain and nine in ten of us hundreds of thousands of members want to stay in the EU."

That's it, lock, stock and barrel. A simple enough sentence. No point-making about stuff you claim I'm making points about. I'm beginning to realise now what you have against education: your teachers didn't manage to teach you anything, certainly about reading and writing English (the writing part is clear from your last post and the reading part is clear from your inability to get the drift of a perfectly simple sentence).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 01:50 PM

Davis and Hammond write to business

It doesn't sound as if Rees-Mogg will be happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:19 PM

Ducking and diving shaw. I see your last post adds clarity where none existed before. Nothing wrong with my comprehension shaw, it has kept me gainfully employed in the real world for decades. Unlike a self proclaimed "union activist" (troublemaker) such as yourself. You hoped to bluff your way through by not specifying how small and totally insignificant the labour party membership is. Your later mention of the true numbers is a little late in the day. No matter what the percentages say, any percentage of FA is still sweet FA and therefore meaningless. It had as much impact on the brexit vote as as a limp lettuce.

"your teachers didn't manage to teach you anything, certainly about reading and writing English (the writing part is clear from your last post and the reading part is clear from your inability to get the drift of a perfectly simple sentence)."

" Below is thought for the day for a well educated scientist/botanist/union activist/ex teacher: (Think on it - Not a very flattering picture now is it? But it sums you up to a Tee. I notice you keep well clear of trying to correct jimmy the ranter. Are you scared of a broadside? or do you just keep it as a weapon in reserve when the toybox has had everything hurled out and you arguments are a little limp-wristed?

Arrogance, pedantry, and dogmatism...the occupational diseases of those who spend their lives directing the intellects of the young.
Henry Seidel Canby

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:40 PM

I'd be more interested in hearing from the Leavers here where they stand on the Hammond-Mogg spectrum. Keith has been clear he is very much at Rees-Mogg end, but I have no idea where Iains and Nigel stand. Is Hammond's approach a betrayal and "Brexit in name only"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:41 PM

Arrogance, pedantry, and dogmatism...the occupational diseases of those who spend their lives directing the intellects of the young.

Ouch!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:57 PM

those who spend their lives directing the intellects of the young.



As opposed to those who spend their lives directing no intellect whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 08:07 PM

Honestly Greg, they are not worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 03:51 AM

Roll on the premiership of the dreaded Mogg. You know it makes sense!
Reasons below

https://www.ft.com/content/be44ff5a-028e-11e8-9e12-af73e8db3c71

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:01 AM

I can't read that Financial Times article becauae it needs a subacriotion to read more than two articles.

If you have Rees mogg as PM, you get the wish to lower environmental standards and workers' rights as well. Do you support that as well, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM

Latest Brexit scam
Ex Government ministers are now offering their services to use their influence to manipulate Brexit negations to favour individual businesses - at the cost of up to £5,000 a day   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:03 AM

The track record of the Tories with the EU has always been to attempt to compromise workers' rights regulations in the interests of big business controlling the "flexible labour market." Trying to sidestep the Working Time Directive was one example. Not enough was made of that in the remain campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 08:54 AM

In or out of the EU Labour will trash the economy. I am surprised the abbacus is not made the shadow chancellor, in order to fully crew the ship of fools. The only flexibility of the labour market under such a regime will be exhibited by swimming for safety away from labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM

No view on Hammond vs Rees-Mogg's differing idea of Brexit, then?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 10:54 AM

There are differing views within Labour too.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:25 AM

Corbyn's ship has sailed! How sad!

Shaw your leader does not want a second referendum. You are out of touch dear boy!



The big ship sails on the ally ally.....
with musical accompaniment
The big ship sails on the ally.....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:34 AM

I must have said about ten times now that I'm no longer in favour of a second referendum and given my reasons. Once again, you reveal your scorn for those poor teachers of yours by demonstrating your lack of reading skills. She's called Diane Abbott by the way. Do grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:50 AM

But is your blathering fact, fiction, whimsy or what. You have already said you do not care about the truth. If you cannot tell us what particular mode of thought governs your incessant scribbling then there is no real point in anyone paying any attention to you. In fact if you merely post provocatively with no regard to the truth then you are merely trolling and the moderators should perhaps consider banning you for being nothing but a nuisance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:56 AM

Agreed there are differing views in Labour. But until the next election at the earliest that will not effect Post Brexit life (unless there is a substantial rebellion in thw Conservative ranks.)

On the other hand which version of Brexit thw Rories settle on will critically affect Post Brexit. Which is why discussion of Labour in this thread is basically dodging the issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:58 AM

Typos again! Obviously I meant Tories not Rories (amongst other mistakes.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 12:01 PM

I think you will find DMcG that evading the issue is the one consistency amongst the Pro Brexit posters.

I have linked to numerous articles that have not illicted a single response.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 01:37 PM

Perhaps I am being naïve, but it seems a fairly straightforward question to me. Assuming Brexit goes ahead, I am at the Hammond end of wanting the differences to be about "two completely interconnected and aligned economies with high levels of trade between them, and selectively moving them, hopefully very modestly, apart". Keith has made plain he is at the Rees-Mogg end which regards this as betrayal. I have no qualms about saying that is my view, and I believe neither has Keith for his.

So I am not asking, Iains (and others), what the Conservative view is. I am asking what your personal opinion is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 02:00 PM

2999...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 02:01 PM

3000! -)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM

illicted? I do not like to draw attention to such things as this is shaws predilection. Perhaps elicited?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 03:51 PM

If that is the best riposte you can come up with Iains it doesn't really say a great deal about the "leave" argument does it.

Like I said, I have posted numerous links to articles on line, over a period of months.

There has not been, to date, one single rebuttal of those articles.

Not a single one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:06 PM

Not a riposte, merely a query.
It could be I do not consider your links worthy of comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 09:07 PM

Well your links either don't work at all, or are way out of date, or negate the points you're trying to make, or have to be either paid for or subscribed to, or are from extreme right-wing sources. That's right grand is that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:50 AM

(Following Iain's comments about 'abbacus')
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:34 AM

I must have said about ten times now that I'm no longer in favour of a second referendum and given my reasons. Once again, you reveal your scorn for those poor teachers of yours by demonstrating your lack of reading skills. She's called Diane Abbott by the way. Do grow up.

This from someone who insists on calling the previous PM 'Camoron'.
Yet more double standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:58 AM

Then bollock both of us, Nigel, not just me, right? Don't want people thinking you apply double standards! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 09:18 AM

Except there's only one hypocrite here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 09:22 AM

Then bollock both of us, Nigel, not just me, right? Don't want people thinking you apply double standards! :-)

You clearly don't understand. I'm not bollocking you for misusing a name. I'm pointing out your double standards in the matter.
You feel it's Ok to pull someone up for misusing a politician's name, when you do exactly the same yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 09:43 AM

But Nigel, you never ever ever ever ever pull anyone up on your own side. You target me incessantly for the very simple reason that it's all you're capable of. When I criticised your ally Iains for calling Diane a name lampooning her physical appearance, you waded in with a very anodyne and reluctant me-too. You know damn well that had I not picked him up for using the term abbotamus, he'd still be gleefully using it. Apart from that, you give a bye to all the idiocy that emanates from Keith and all the abuse that emanates from Iains, just because they're your mates. I rarely see any substantial contribution to discussions from you. The suspicion is that you neither follow the issues very closely nor understand them much. You cover this up by constantly-sniping little posts. Vast numbers of your posts consist of copy and pasting the whole of someone else's post then adding a one-liner. Pathetic. Find another hobby.

I see the Tories are in a state of hiatus over brexit today. Totally riven, infighting galore, all in the public gaze. We are supposed to be moving on to the next stage of the brexit negotiations. Stand by for some weak-kneed hubris over the transition terms, for which the EU is going to call the shots. God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 09:45 AM

By the way, Nigel, you have pulled me for misusing a name. Just me, no-one else. Bet you hoped I'd forgotten that. Now move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 09:58 AM

Meanwhile, I would still like to hear from Iains and Nigel and bobad whether they regard a Hammond/Davis style Brexit as a betrayal. Your personal view, please, so no need to reference anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 10:10 AM

I rarely see any substantial contribution to discussions from you. The suspicion is that you neither follow the issues very closely nor understand them much. You cover this up by constantly-sniping little posts.

I follow, and understand the issues quite well. I just don't happen to agree with your views of them.
Unfortunately when I make it clear that you have totally misunderstood things like tariffs, or Raggytash fails to understand exchange rates and percentages, you tend to throw a hissy-fit and change the subject claiming you're being stalked.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 10:28 AM

Maths was never my strongest subject, however I do know that the pound crashed immediately after the Brexit vote. Now 19 months later it has yet to recover from that nose dive.

I also know that my weekly shopping bill, my heating and lighting, my vehicle vehicle fuel have all increased, due in some part, because of the fall.

I am fortunate, I can carry these increases, I know some, nay many, cannot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 11:26 AM

when I make it clear that you have totally misunderstood things like tariffs, or Raggytash fails to understand exchange rates and percentages

But you have never done that, Nigel. When there are multiple ways of interpreting statistics as there always is you simply interpret them in a different way to some others and then claim that your interpretation is the right one. It isn't, it is one of many.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 11:43 AM

But you have never done that, Nigel. When there are multiple ways of interpreting statistics as there always is you simply interpret them in a different way to some others and then claim that your interpretation is the right one. It isn't, it is one of many.
What, 'never'? You've read every one of my posts, and can assure me of that?
There are not 'always' multiple ways of interpreting statistics. And even if people try to twist them different ways some interpretations can be more accurate than others (at times), particularly if some are being deliberately misused.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 11:49 AM

And anyway, my post didn't mention statistics. It mentioned Tariffs & exchange rates. On both of those subjects I gave precise reasons why the views held by Steve Shaw & Raggytash (respectively) were wrong. None of it was down to personal interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 11:52 AM

Move along, nothing to see here...



Get a life, Nige.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 12:41 PM

THe EU negotiation guidelines can be found here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 12:43 PM

" When there are multiple ways of interpreting statistics as there always is you simply interpret them in a different way to some others and then claim that your interpretation is the right one. It isn't, it is one of many."

"The relationship between the data and what they describe merely reflects the fact that certain kinds of statistical statements may have truth values which are not invariant under some transformations. Whether or not a transformation is sensible to contemplate depends on the question one is trying to answer"
Referendum results:
Leave        17,410,742        51.89%
Remain        16,141,241        48.11%
Valid votes        33,551,983        99.92%
Invalid or blank votes        25,359        0.08%

The question is: Who won?
or to slight modify the sentence above,In order to change the outcome. it is not quite so much a futile transformation required as a transmogrification of the data set! There may be multiple ways a loon of the left may interpret the statistical data above but it will require more than jumping through hoops, a looking glass or trip down the rabbit hole to alter the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 01:03 PM

"Who won?"
If things continue in the direction they are heading, nobody
Anothetr internal Govenment crisis, another possibility of a challenge to the leadership
Just what is needed - a split government and no chance of a general; election top put things right for years to come
Just what a country taking a leap in in the dark needs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 01:14 PM

"Who won".

As long as you stick to the numbers, and the exact question asked in the referendum, there is no difficultly in answering that. However, the instant you go beyond that, you are into interpretation and vagueness and you cannot quote figures.

For example, there is literally no way of knowing how many voted for Hammond-soft-Brexit and how many for Mogg-hard-Brexit. It is completely fallacious to assume they all voted for whatever flavour of Brexit you prefer.

Speaking of which, you seem strangely reluctant to answer that ...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 01:37 PM

But the obstinate fact is that just over a third of the electorate voted leave. In no way does that qualify as "the British people have spoken" or that "the electorate made a choice that was clear-cut and decisive." The fact that we are still arguing about it here and in every bloody pub in the country is that the result was very divisive. One more thing that I've mentioned before. The question on the ballot paper confined itself to a bare yes/no choice. It did not ask whether we should stay in the customs union or single market. The person who, alone, decided that what the question meant was that we shouldn't stay in them was Theresa May, taking advice from an advisor who has since been discredited and who she sacked. She did not consult either the cabinet or parliament. Leavers who bleat on about unelected bureaucrats in Brussels imposing laws on us (a lie) should reflect on that aspect of the Tories' expedient bypassing of democracy, and it hasn't been the only example by a long chalk.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 01:57 PM

You've read every one of my posts, and can assure me of that?

I have not read every one of your posts. Why should I? I can assure you that from what I have seem you have never made it clear that anyone has totally misunderstood things like tariffs or failed to understand exchange rates and percentages. If you can link us to any such action, please feel free to do so.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 02:00 PM

Today it was raining for five hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 02:08 PM

Not everywhere. Thanks for proving the point Iains :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 02:15 PM

" However, the instant you go beyond that, you are into interpretation and vagueness and you cannot quote figures."

Why would anyone want to? In is in , out is out. nowt else required.



" In no way does that qualify as "the British people have spoken" or that "the electorate made a choice that was clear-cut and decisive."

Here is your chance to vote. In, out,
the winner takes all.

Th outcome was very clear and decisive. In was smaller than out, therefore out won. What could possibly be clearer? YOU LOST.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 02:44 PM

Even clearer is that we have all lost.

"In is in , out is out. nowt else required."

Nowt else except almost two years of stop-start angst-ridden "negotiations" being screwed up by a fatally-divided party followed by two years of still paying in, still allowing free movement, having no say in anything, then Christ knows what after that, the only certainty being that we're stuffed. Apart from that, nowt else. Certainly, nowt else for the NHS.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM

" still allowing free movement,"   
That is a very racist little englander attitude. You should be ashamed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 06:00 PM

What are you talking about? I am stating a fact about free movement in the transition period that you leavers don't want to happen. As a matter of fact, at the very moment I'm typing this, Rees-Mogg is on Newsnight utterly denigrating the very idea of free movement. He's your man, Iains, remember? You told us you wanted him in charge the other day, remember? By that reckoning, the racist little Englander attitude is all yours and his. I'm more than happy with the free movement of people and must have said so dozens of times. Learn to read.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 02:15 AM

Hoops, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 04:46 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 01:57 PM
I have not read every one of your posts. Why should I? I can assure you that from what I have seem you have never made it clear that anyone has totally misunderstood things like tariffs or failed to understand exchange rates and percentages. If you can link us to any such action, please feel free to do so.

You should have read every one of my posts to make a statement like:But you have never done that, Nigel.
I see that you have now scaled back that comment to: from what I have seem you have never made it clear that anyone has totally misunderstood things like tariffs

As for showing that I have corrected on tariffs:

From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 02:23 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:54 AM
In what sense are we not already independent? The UK contributes 0.5%, half of one percent, of its total GDP to the EU. We are not in the eurozone. 95% of all laws pertaining to the EU have been fully agreed to by the UK and with around just 2% of EU laws are we in active disagreement. We buy more from them than they buy from us, and it's all tariff-free, and, in very round figures it amounts to about half of all our trade. We can and do trade with the rest of the world, but all thst will now have to be renegotiated. Cor, aren't we good at negotiating! The EU forms a powerful trading bloc that contains the UK population times eight. That's what we're ditching.

The EU does make a powerful trading block, but a trading block which has put 'protectionist' tariffs on the import of many basic foodstuffs which we could import at lower tariffs (WTO) if we were allowed to trade freely. Even without entering into negotiations with those exporting countries we could trade at WTO tariffs, and see a reduced cost of our foods.

"We buy more from them than they buy from us, and it's all tariff free" It's all tariff free when we buy it from (say) Germany, but if it originally sourced from outside the EU then any import tariff has already been paid in Germany, and has been accounted (as a mark up) for when setting the price that Germany will sell it at in order to make a profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:24 AM

But the obstinate fact is that just over a third of the electorate voted leave. In no way does that qualify as "the British people have spoken" or that "the electorate made a choice that was clear-cut and decisive." The fact that we are still arguing about it here and in every bloody pub in the country is that the result was very divisive.

Just over 1/3 (of the electorate) voted 'leave'.
Just over 1/3 (of the electorate) voted 'remain'.
It qualifies as "The electorate made a choice" in that the percentage voting 'leave' outvoted those voting 'remain' by 52:48 (approx.)
Whether you look at percentage of available voters, percentage of those who actually voted, or percentage of the whole population, the result will still show in the ration 52:48

The fact that we are still arguing about it here and in every bloody pub in the country is that the result was very divisive.
Sorry, the meaning of that sentence is unclear.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:26 AM

So, absolutely no correction of what was said and no clarification of anything then. You seem to be channeling Keith in your (mis)use of the English language.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:40 AM

And you don't think the US will be protectionist, then, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:46 AM

So, absolutely no correction of what was said and no clarification of anything then.

I have corrected the assumption that purchases from the EU do not include tariffs.
I have clarified that the import tariffs charged by the EU become part of the 'hidden costs' in the goods we purchase from the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:53 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:40 AM

And you don't think the US will be protectionist, then, Nigel?

From the posturings of Trump I do expect the US to be protectionist. But why the sudden query about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:55 AM

Because I believe it will impact hugely on any trade deal we manage to achieve with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:33 AM

It may have a large effect on our trade with them. But why aim the comment at me, worded in such a way as to suggest that I have stated (or suggested) the contrary at any point?
And you don't think the US will be protectionist, then, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:34 AM

I have corrected the assumption that purchases from the EU do not include tariffs.

They do not include tariffs from EU to EU countries. Which is what was said. No correction.

I have clarified that the import tariffs charged by the EU become part of the 'hidden costs' in the goods we purchase from the EU.

Of course they do. Just like hidden costs include transport, R&D and the Directors floozies new Lexus. Everyone is aware of these costs. No clarification.

I am sure everyone is sick to the back teeth of the linguistic gymnastics that people go through to try and score points against their perceived 'opponents'. It is what causes these discussions to become so ridiculous.

Two people now trying to hold up hoops. Who will try being ringmaster next?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:39 AM

From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 01:57 PM
I have not read every one of your posts. Why should I? I can assure you that from what I have seem you have never made it clear that anyone has totally misunderstood things like tariffs or failed to understand exchange rates and percentages. If you can link us to any such action, please feel free to do so.

That looks suspiciously like one of the hoops you're referring to ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:45 AM

Different language
Different planet

Going for the hat trick and adding different morality any time soon?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:42 AM

So today we have a leaked DExEU document which, for all its limitations was "meant to be shown confidentially to cabinet ministers this week" (according to the Guardian).

We also have the start of the House of Lords reading of the withdrawal bill at which a record 195 Lords have asked to speak. Already, about an hour in, the bill has been severely criticised.

And, on the same day on Mudcat we are arguing about whether the word 'never' waa used literally or in the idiomatic sense everyone can understand. Trivial stuff, folks

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:57 AM

Who will try being ringmaster next?
We are awaiting the arrival of the other four rings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:01 AM

Stop talking about rings, Dave. I'm planning a very hot curry tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:09 AM

Leaked government document says that the UK will be considerably worse off whatever
kind of brexit we get. The Department of Denial (aka Tory brexiteers) is saying that the predictions did not include the type of bespoke deal that Theresa wants (and which we are definitely not getting). Interesting that these adverse reports always seem intended to be for govt eyes only...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:19 AM

It is a slightly curious position to argue that all such forecasts are rubbish but be upset because it does not include the rubbish estimate from your preferred assumptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:34 AM

" Interesting that these adverse reports always seem intended to be for govt eyes only... "

But to quote your goodself on the function of an MP:
"I expect him or her to become more expert than I am in matters politic and I don't necessarily expect them to comply with my wishes."

My question to you is that if the mps are expert in matters politic, then why on earth would you need to know the contents of a report?

Also far more importantly- if negotiating, only a fool displays all the cards to the other players.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:42 AM

Of course it goes without saying that the leaked new Treasury-led Brexit forecasts have to be read in the context of their record at predicting what would happen in the immediate aftermath of a Leave vote.

The HMT prediction for GDP 3 months after the referendum was that “the UK economy would fall into recession” and contract up to -1%. It grew +0.5% in this period.

The Treasury told us: “The analysis shows that immediately following a vote to leave the EU, the economy would be pushed into a recession, with four quarters of negative growth.” The reality has been positive growth every single quarter since.

HMT forecast that in the two years following a Leave vote GDP would fall between -3% and -6%. GDP grew by 1.9% in 2016 and 1.8% in 2017, with better than expected growth in the final quarter. There is now no recession forecast.

On unemployment, they infamously said it would rise by between 500,000 and 820,000 in the immediate aftermath of the referendum. Unemployment fell again last week to a four-decade low.

And the Treasury said government borrowing would rise by up to £39 billion immediately after the vote. Instead borrowing for the financial year to date is down 12% on the same period last year. That’s the lowest year-to-date total since 2007.

Were I a betting man I would not put money on any of their forecasts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 09:52 AM

Did you know that not all MP's are in government so how can my MP use her expert judgment on my behalf if the reports are for the government's eyes only?????

Or are only tory lowlife entitled to have their MPs do this????????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 12:57 PM

And what about the decision that the brexit decision meant that we leave the customs union and the single market, a question never asked? Only two people in the country have imposed that interpretation on us and only one of those was a MP, the Right Honourable Member for Maidenhead. Done and dusted, fait accomplis. Interesting that she's now decided that she wants a bit of that anyway, what with her "bespoke trade deal" wot she will not be getting.

These are our servants Iains, who we pay. They have no right to withhold information from us just because it appears to undermine their mission. We call it democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 01:12 PM

And Boris's bus forecast that the NHS would be getting £350 million a week. Nah, it was more than a forecast. It was a promise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 01:17 PM

Were I a betting man I would not put money on any of their forecasts

As is your right, of course. But that gives you two alternatives. Either you are happy to proceed into the future with your eyes tight shut and just hoping it turns out ok, or you use some other way of making a prediction. And what is that? Now, I would set some store by well thought out qualitative analyses - I don't insist on quantative. But DExEU hasn't produced these either. So we are left with 'gut feel', I think. Which I regard as inadequate.

I very much doubt, by the way, that these predictions are quite as has been reported. It is far more likely that there are confidence intervals, margins of error analysis and so on, but these are too dry for newspapers (and many MPs) to puzzle over.

In my ideal world, the model would be published, not just the results, so that it could be peer reviewed, and things that were not examined by interested parties. For example all the results assume we get a beneficial trade deal with the US. There are assumptions around this - do we get one at all, and if we do when? for example - which anyone interested enough could investigate. I'm not holding my breath on this one: it will probably be several decades before things like that are released as a matter of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:14 PM

Two tweets today from Tory MP Phillip Lee following the leak of the brexit scenarios report:

But if these figures turn out to be anywhere near right, there would be a serious question over whether a government could legitimately lead a country along a path that the evidence and rational consideration indicate would be damaging. This shows the PM's challenge...

The PM has been dealt some tough cards and I support her mission to make the best of them. It's time for evidence, not dogma, to show the way. We must act for our country's best interests, not ideology & populism, or history will judge us harshly. Our country deserves no less.

The voice of sanity, from a Tory too. The government leading us down a path that is clearly damaging is irrational, and it's high time that our MPs stopped worrying about short-term party interests and ideology and spoke out in the long-term interests of generations to come. Brexit is simply insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:17 PM

I'll do thst again, hopefully with the italicising fixed:

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:14 PM

Two tweets today from Tory MP Phillip Lee following the leak of the brexit scenarios report:

But if these figures turn out to be anywhere near right, there would be a serious question over whether a government could legitimately lead a country along a path that the evidence and rational consideration indicate would be damaging. This shows the PM's challenge...

The PM has been dealt some tough cards and I support her mission to make the best of them. It's time for evidence, not dogma, to show the way. We must act for our country's best interests, not ideology & populism, or history will judge us harshly. Our country deserves no less.

The voice of sanity, from a Tory too. The government leading us down a path that is clearly damaging is irrational, and it's high time that our MPs stopped worrying about short-term party interests and ideology and spoke out in the long-term interests of generations to come. Brexit is simply insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:18 PM

Well, you get it... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 02:38 AM

But, but, but....the Unicorns! What would happen to the Unicorns that Keefie, Teribus, Nigs, and Boo-Bad believe are on their way?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 04:14 AM

How was the curry, Steve?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 05:50 AM

I have daffodils blooming in my garden. The first appeared one week ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 05:51 AM

Stopped one chilli short of making it a ring-burner as I have to be out and about today. It was a Spice Tailor Fiery Goan in the end with chicken and coconut cream. Delicious!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 05:55 AM

We've had daffs round here since late November. I blame Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 06:05 AM

Tis a fine illustration of the power and the glory of Conservatiasm!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 06:11 AM

What's that? Tory orgasms?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 07:34 AM

In the Lords today and reported by the BBC:

"Baroness Northover say's it is appropriate that the Lords who've been confronting the govt on Henry VIII powers are called Hope, Judge and Pannick"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 09:32 AM

EU rejects banks proposals for free trade

Anyone surprised?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 09:47 AM

No. And this could change everything if it's true.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 12:05 PM

Conservatiasm!

Shouldn't that me Conservamiasm?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Feb 18 - 03:43 PM

Today May has proved that the tory party and the lowlife who vote for them are racist.

According to the BBC online news May wants compusory regoistration for all EU nationals that come to UK after March 2019, with conditions applied with regards to right to remain in the Uk. As my partner (of more than 15 years)will no longer have an automatic right to live with me, then unless this applies to every partnership with UK nationals as well as EU nationals everyone who still supports brexit is a racist hypocrit. There is no room for digisting low life like that in decent society.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 18 - 03:47 PM

Extradition refused becausee of Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 18 - 04:39 PM

Sorry to hear that, co-ordinator. We can only hope it doesn't end up quite as you fear. It's all very well people talking about abstractions like sovereignty and nationhood and GDP but so often that is not translated into the effect it has on real people's lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 09:42 AM

Today May has proved that the tory party and the lowlife who vote for them are racist.

According to the BBC online news May wants compusory regoistration for all EU nationals that come to UK after March 2019, with conditions applied with regards to right to remain in the Uk. As my partner (of more than 15 years)will no longer have an automatic right to live with me, then unless this applies to every partnership with UK nationals as well as EU nationals everyone who still supports brexit is a racist hypocrit. There is no room for digisting low life like that in decent society.

How is this 'racist'?
It will apply to those from the EU who do not currently reside in the UK, irrespective of race or ethnicity.

The 'race card' is too easily played without considering whether it actually corresponds to the question at hand.

I will probably now be branded a 'racist' for trying to keep the discussion honest. As I know I'm not, it won't really bother me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 10:03 AM

What race are Europeans and how does that differ with UK'ers - inquiring minds would like to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 10:10 AM

Extradition refused becausee of Brexit

Interesting link. Does this mean that the UK should also be refusing to allow any extradition from UK to other EU states if proceedings/sentence would last beyond March 2019?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 11:43 AM

Extradition refused because of Brexit 

Interesting link. Does this mean that the UK should also be refusing to allow any extradition from UK to other EU states if proceedings/sentence would last beyond March 2019?

Perhaps. But more to the point it demonstrates the assurances I was getting that all the Europol and similar cooperation would just continue because it was in everyone's interest was, unsurprisingly, too simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 11:56 AM

But to answer your question directly: the amendments to the withdrawal bill deliberately excluded the EU social rights. So no EU can be certain of what prisoners rights will be once we leave. They can guess, of course, but there is no legal assurance and that is what is needed. Hence an EU to UK extradition is legally challengeable.

In thw othwr direction the rights are known, so I doubt if a legal challenge would aucceed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 01:26 PM

I do not recall too many squawking about human rights when extraordinary rendition was occurring through EU airfields en route to Guantanamo Bay and a healthy diet of waterboarding. The UK is a signatory to the UN declaration of human rights. Being able to mount a legal challenge by no means guarantees victory.
Just another brexit bashing device!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 07:48 PM

There was plenty of squawking, aka outrage expressed, when those practices became known, I assure you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 04:12 AM

While you are right Steve, and Iains may be right in that he says he doesn't remember it - a very different thing from it occurring - it is totally off the point.

A legal hole exists. It is there and has been confirmed by the Ireland Supreme Court, whether you voted leave, remain or didn't vote at all. Everyone who is accused of a crime and has managed to get to anywhere in the EU may or may not be able to exploit it successfully, but they all have the opportunity and all of their lawyers have the legal duty to try if it is appropriate.

So the sensible thing to do is not to bring in irrelevancies like Guantanamo, or (to following the childish animal noises theme) bleat about 'bashing brexit' but to see what can be done to close it.

The thing that makes us most vulnerable to exploitation of this loophole is to pretend it is just some anti-brexit plot and so refuse to accept it exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 07:45 AM

It is sort of off the point, I agree, but he did try to turn that wrongdoing into grist for his pro-brexit mill. I suppose we could blame the EU for the Camorra and Mafia while we're at it. I mean, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 07:21 AM

This is from a comment in the Guardian under an article by Nick Cohen ("Rest assured, when Brexit bombs it won't be the fault of the Tory right") by someone calling themselves Driscoll:

...The preparatory work for "scapegoating" has been underway since early 2017 by Brexiteers...the people in the frame are judges;pro remain MPs in all parties; private individuals who are pro-Remain and have by their actions derailed the smooth hard Brexit and desired lack of parliamentary involvement in both triggering Article 50 initially and negotiations desired by Brexiteers in the Tory party; the media especially the BBC and now the civil service and Treasury. Finally not forgetting Corbyn,Clegg,Sturgeon et al and the LibDEms,Labour and SNP Apparently the establishment and anybody that disagrees with their view generally in fact such is the paranoia of the Brexiteers over a sell out of Brexit which of course if they were in charge would be as smooth as anything,simple, having your cake and eating it and of course a munificent bounty of cash for the NHS.

In the 1920's and 1930's the nazis claimed that Germany was stabbed in the back by people in Germany (called "November Criminals" in all of Goebbels propaganda) by refusing the army Generals their support to wage successful war against the allies when it was the Generals that pleaded with the government to sue for an armistice but in nazi-speak victory was snatched from the Generals hands by traitorous people back home in Germany of course...

Here's a section of tbe Cohen article that the above was a reaction to:

The Right does not want British institutions to take back control from the EU. It wants to take control of British institutions. Understand its raging ambition and you will understand why self-proclaimed Conservatives are so anxious to destroy.

Patriots who shout about their love of country daily announce their hatred of every British principle that might constrain them. The rule of law and sovereignty of parliament? The Mail echoed every totalitarian movement since the Jacobins and denounced judges as "enemies of the people" for ruling that Brexit couldn't be triggered without the approval of parliament. Academic freedom? A government whip demanded universities tell him what lecturers were teaching about Brexit. The right of MPs to follow their conscience? Liberal Tories received death threats after the Telegraph called them "mutineers" for not obeying orders and thinking for themselves. Now the civil service is having its ethics besmirched and neutrality threatened. Jacob Rees-Mogg and Steve Baker accused it of plotting to undermine Brexit by producing needlessly pessimistic forecasts. The lie was so demonstrably false even Baker had to apologise. Tellingly, Rees-Mogg did not. Unnervingly, he may be our next prime minister.

You do not have to know much history to recognise a stab-in-the-back myth in the making. German militarists and fascists explained away defeat in the First World War with the dolchstosslegende: the German armies had not been defeated by their enemies in France but by communists, Jews and pacifists at home. So Brexit will not be defeated because the Tory right sold the British a fantasy but because judges, civil servants, saboteurs and mutineers subverted a glorious victory.

We need to be very vigilant.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 06:29 PM

Iains may be right in that he says he doesn't remember it

There is quite a bit that Inanes seems- selectively- unable to recall.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 07:19 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 11:56 AM

But to answer your question directly: the amendments to the withdrawal bill deliberately excluded the EU social rights. So no EU can be certain of what prisoners rights will be once we leave. They can guess, of course, but there is no legal assurance and that is what is needed. Hence an EU to UK extradition is legally challengeable.

In thw othwr direction the rights are known, so I doubt if a legal challenge would aucceed.

Do I take it that the sentence in bold above is intended to be read as "The EU cannot be certain what prisoners' rights will be"? As I'm having problems understanding exactly what argument you're trying to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 02:17 AM

Is it the absence of the apostrophe that is worrying you, Nigel?

I had originally intended to write "No EU country" but omitted the 'country'. If that makes it clearer for you, all well and good.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 03:40 AM

No, the missing apostrophe wasn't causing a problem. It was the missing word which made the sentence nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 03:45 AM

Glad that is cleared up, then.

Any thoughts about the substance of the post?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 03:53 AM

"Interesting link. Does this mean that the UK should also be refusing to allow any extradition from UK to other EU states if proceedings/sentence would last beyond March 2019?

Perhaps. But more to the point it demonstrates the assurances I was getting that all the Europol and similar cooperation would just continue because it was in everyone's interest was, unsurprisingly, too simple. "

this is an area where there needs to be one single set of rules, then UK MUST obey EU27 to the letter without question, and have no say whatsoever on the policy and regulations. So much for sovereignty, huh? If decent people are no longer entitled to representation on issues like this, the idiots who voted Tory in 2015 should pay for a shadow European Parliament in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 04:36 AM

Glad that is cleared up, then.
Any thoughts about the substance of the post?

Yes, once we are out of Europe we need to consider the need for a new extradition treaty between UK & EU. Just one more thing to be added to the list of considerations. Not a 'deal-breaker' in itself, and a relatively minor matter. It might even get sorted out before we leave as part of the general negotiations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 05:01 AM

To an extent I agree, Nigel. This is very much a case of "Identify a problem. Agree what needs to be done. Do it. End of issue."

There is no inherent need for it to be a deal breaker. As to whether it is a minor issue, well, perhaps not if the people to be extradited are accused of terrorism rather than fraud.

However, agreeing what needs to be done is not simple since the EU citizens want EU rights when extradicted, which will be tricky if that includes rights ordinary UK citizens don't have. So I don't see getting such an agreement as necessarily straightforward.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Feb 18 - 12:02 PM

with the news that our government would not necessarily rule out selling off part of our NHS to US medical vultures could anyone on here explain what are the main reasons anyone would vote for the conservative party these days? (i'm stressing voting for rather than voting against anyone - so no mention off JC or the labour party please) And just what is it that they are conserving these days? how can they be doing so well in the polls when they are completely unable to do anything competently these days? it's not all about brexit.....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 18 - 01:31 PM

Dammed if I know. And despite your specifically asking for reasons FOR, rather than just against Labour, I suspect the 'against Labour' will be strong.

So, trying to be fair: all parties have good and bad, active and lazy, interested in the constituents and disdainful of them. So on the few occasions I have voted for 'Conservative' I haven't really: I have voted for a very specific person who happened to be Conservative.

When it comes to selling off the NHS, listen out for "free at the point of use" and the provider not mattering. Nonsense of course, the provider matters a great deal in terms of cost and effectiveness. What I think will happen is parts will be sold off to the US and elsewhere, while maintaining "free at the point of use." Then a gradual transformation - probably taking a decade or more - of the NHS into a funding organisation rather than a provider of treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 18 - 03:36 PM

Could someone please link to an article in todays Guardian on the potential costs of a hard Brexit. The article in on page one and is entitled "Hard Brexit would cost Public Finances 80 Billion, says secret analysis.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 18 - 03:54 PM

Here it is

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 18 - 04:55 PM

But it doesn't matter because we will have 'taken are cuntry back', and Keefy, Nigs, and Teribians will have their unicorns.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 08:08 AM

Sorry Backwoodsman:
But it doesn't matter because we will have 'taken are cuntry back', and Keefy, Nigs, and Teribians will have their unicorns.

You appear to be the only one on here with a fixation on unicorns.

Would you like to consider actually making some sort of valid point in the discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 08:41 AM

Don't worry, BWM, I understand the point and it is valid. For the benefit of those that do not understand an explanation may be required.

1. The pro Brexit team keep telling us of the benefits it will reap
2. Those benefits, as yet, seem to be mythical
3. Unicorns are also mythical

Get it?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:05 AM

Myth and fantasy is a predilection of the remoaners. They also cunningly contrive to confuse forecasts with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:09 AM

Well, Iains, I'd be happy to hear your forecasts based on more than hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:22 AM

Different language anyone?

Impact assessments by the countries leading economists = myth and fantasy

Anything based on a what Nigel Farage says will happen = fact

We are definitely two peoples separated by by a common tongue. I just hope that those who believe in Farage and unicorns will wake up before we all go to hell in a handcart.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 11:28 AM

what are the positive reasons for maintaining any faith in the tory government?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 11:43 AM

Nigs, as understanding the concept of irony is obviously not one of your talents, I'll explain in little words that you might understand.

Unicorns are mythical animals (mythical means 'fictitious').

The claims made by the BrexShit Buffoons, Bozo, Gove, and Farridge, are fictitious.

You believe their fictitious claims, ergo it is reasonable to assume you, Keefy, Teribians, etc. believe in unicorns.

Cold in Sheffield?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 11:47 AM

I do notice that not one comment has been made by any of the "opposition" on here with regard not only to the most recent link but to any of the previous links (I may have missed the odd one)

I've asked before does anyone have anything good news to report that has come out of Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 11:48 AM

They promised us a referendum, and delivered.
Tony Blair promised a referendum, but didn't deliver.
Gordon Brown promised a referendum, but didn't deliver.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 11:50 AM

That was in response to:
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 11:28 AM

what are the positive reasons for maintaining any faith in the tory government?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 12:10 PM

i was rather hoping for a few reasons for supporting the current government on matters not exclusively related to brexit. however, since you (inevitably) mention it - are you entirely satisfied with the way that the tories are handling the negotiations? how do you feel about the way they are running down all the publis services that we rely on? are you confident they will leave a happier and more prosperous country for us and our children?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 12:30 PM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 11:43 AM
(1)Nigs, as understanding the concept of irony is obviously not one of your talents, I'll explain in little words that you might understand.
(2)Unicorns are mythical animals (mythical means 'fictitious').
(3)The claims made by the BrexShit Buffoons, Bozo, Gove, and Farridge, are fictitious.
(4)You believe their fictitious claims, ergo it is reasonable to assume you, Keefy, Teribians, etc. believe in unicorns.
(5)Cold in Sheffield?

(1) I understand irony, although it is difficult to identify in the written medium, with no 'tone of voice' or 'body language' to identify when it may be being used.
(2) Mythical means related to traditional stories. That is possibly fictitious, but also possibly factual. I will accept that Unicorns can be both mythical and fictitious, but the two words are not interchangeable
(3) While the claims made by Brexit may eventually prove to be false, they cannot be 'fictitious' if you and others are able to quote them.
(4) I believe that they are making claims for what we can hope to achieve. Obstruction from certain quarters may make this harder. Whether or not I believe in unicorns is nothing to do with Brexit.
(5) What has Sheffield to do with anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 12:34 PM

From: peteaberdeen
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 12:10 PM
I was rather hoping for a few reasons for supporting the current government on matters not exclusively related to brexit. however, since you (inevitably) mention it

The subject matter of this discussion is Brexit. I thought that was what you were discussing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 01:03 PM

Just to add confusion, Not all unicorns are either mythical or fictitious

While the claims made by Brexit may eventually prove to be false, they cannot be 'fictitious' if you and others are able to quote them


Not so:

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves,
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe ...


Of course fictional things can be quoted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 02:23 PM

Nigs...

1) Agreed

2) Oxforddictionaries.com - check out #1.2

3) 'False' is equally as applicable as 'fictitious', AFAIC. The BrexShit campaigners ran a campaign which used falsehoods to take advantage of people's fears and prejudices. No substance, no facts, no plan, nothing other than a range of falsehoods varying between dark hints to barefaced lies.

4) If you, Keefy, Boob-ad, and Teribiains voted for the most momentous, far-reaching, and economically-dangerous change in UK history since 1945 on the basis of nothing more than 'hope', driven by a campaign of rabble-rousing and fear-mongering, you are all even more ridiculously irresponsible than I thought.

5) You tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 03:26 PM

i did attempt a slight detour in that it's not all about brexit. given that the government are making a mess of everything else i was just asking if anyone has any confidence in their ability to do anything with any competence. i have had no response yet (other than they suggested a referendum - which basically means 'we don't know what we should do-what do you think we should do? then we will ignore your response(s) and do what our far right wing want us to do) but seriously, is anybody thinking that the tories are not in complete chaos?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 03:36 PM

Mythical means related to traditional stories.

mythical
?m???k?l/
adjective
adjective: mythical

    occurring in or characteristic of myths or folk tales.
    "one of Denmark's greatest mythical heroes"
    synonyms:        legendary, mythological, fabled, fabulous, folkloric, fairy-tale, storybook, chimerical; More
    fantastical, imaginary, imagined, fictitious;
    allegorical, symbolic, symbolical, parabolic
    "dragons and other mythical beasts"
       idealized, especially with reference to the past.
       "a mythical age of contentment and social order"
       fictitious.
       "a mythical customer whose name appears in brochures promoting the bank's services"
       synonyms:        imaginary, fictitious, make-believe, fantasy, fanciful, invented, fabricated, made-up, unreal, untrue, non-existent; informalpretend
       "the girl claimed that Tyler was the father of her mythical child"
       antonyms:        real, actual

Different language anyone?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 05:37 PM

Japan writes to May in favour of UK staying in customs union and single market

The?Japanese?ambassador has warned?Theresa May?that his country?s firms will quit Britain if a botched?Brexit?makes it "unprofitable" to stay.

Koji Tsuruoka laid bare growing nervousness about the impact of EU withdrawal on the Japanese?car giants, banks and tech companies after meeting the Prime Minister in Downing Street.

"If there is no profitability of continuing operation in [the] UK, not Japanese only, no private company can continue operations," Mr Tsuruoka said.


Verhofstadt accuses May ally of spreading 'far-right' propaganda

"So it is as simple as that. And this is all high stakes that I think all of us need to keep in mind."

The warning comes after the Japanese government, in a leaked letter, called on Ms May to keep Britain in the EU?single market?and?customs union?and maintain a free flow of workers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 08:31 PM

Anna Soubry on This Week was convinced that Theresa May is seriously underestimating the right-wing brexiteers. Their ilk brought down Major, they brought down Cameron and, as sure as eggs are eggs, May will be next. Soubry thinks it's inevitable. They always get what they want. There may well be an election before brexit and I think the Tories would win. And it would solve precisely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 03:43 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 01:03 PM
Just to add confusion, Not all unicorns are either mythical or fictitious
While the claims made by Brexit may eventually prove to be false, they cannot be 'fictitious' if you and others are able to quote them

Not so:
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves,
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe ...

Of course fictional things can be quoted.

I didn't claim that fictional things can't be quoted. But 'fictional' & 'fictitious' are not interchangeable.
Lewis Carroll's writings are a matter of fact, they can be found in any good library. While their subject matter may be fictional, one can still quote them.
If you tried to attribute something to Lewis Carroll which he didn't write/say then that would be a fictitious quotation.

As Dave The Gnome says:
Different language anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 03:48 AM

Glad you are learning, Nigel :-)

Next lesson, why people using different languages should not try to discuss complex concepts with each other.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:06 AM

I won't get into trading dictionary definitions with you, Nigel. We are discussing matters that for good or ill will dramatically affect the country. I posted a link about Japan wanting us to stay in the customs union and single market. That matters. How various words are derived from the Latin 'ficticius' is fiddling while the proverbial burns.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:28 AM

From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 02:23 PM
. . .
3) 'False' is equally as applicable as 'fictitious', AFAIC. The BrexShit campaigners ran a campaign which used falsehoods to take advantage of people's fears and prejudices. No substance, no facts, no plan, nothing other than a range of falsehoods varying between dark hints to barefaced lies.

In case you didn't notice the 'Remain' campaign also "ran a campaign which used falsehoods to take advantage of people's fears and prejudices. No substance, no facts, no plan, nothing other than a range of falsehoods varying between dark hints to barefaced lies"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:44 AM

In case you didn't notice the 'Remain' campaign also... etc

Whataboutism at its very worst. Since when did two wrongs make a right?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 09:05 AM

What Nigel sez is actually true, though, Dave. Both sides lied in their teeth and made unjustifiable predictions for post-brexit or post-referendum. So here's the summary:

We were subjected to a campaign in which both sides lied to us.

By the end of the campaign, very little by way of the TRUE brexit pro and cons had been elucidated.

38% of the electorate voted leave, a narrow majority of those who voted.

The leave side have justified this shenanigans by telling us things like "the nation has decided," "the people have spoken," "it was the greatest exercise in democracy the country has ever undertaken," etc.

So, Nigel, as you agree that both sides ran a dishonest campaign, and I won't disagree with that, do you also agree that the referendum was far from being a valid exercise in democracy, that it is not valid to claim that "the people have spoken" and that the outcome should in no way mean that the thing is now a justified fait accomplis? Can you also justify the fact that it wasn't the people, it wasn't parliament, it wasn't even the cabinet, but that it was a wallowing, indecisive prime minister and a now-discredited personal adviser who, alone, decided that the referendum result gave them a mandate to declare that it meant leaving the customs union and single market? Don't remember seeing that on my ballot paper. It may have been said during the campaign, but haven't we just agreed that we couldn't trust anything said during the campaign by either side?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 10:01 AM

Both sides lied in their teeth and made unjustifiable predictions

They did indeed, Steve. It must therefore follow that the leave campaign was better at lying :-P

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 10:59 AM

Meanwhile, looking forward rather than debating the past of dictionaries, the Guardian is reporting this:

===============================

In the first of a series of steps to deal with the possibility of failing to reach a deal with the EU, the UK is signing up to a United Nations convention on road traffic, which theoretically also affects zebra crossings and parking.

The 1968 Vienna convention, which Britain previously avoided joining because it was too burdensome, has become an urgent necessity because the EU will no longer recognise UK-issued licences after Brexit and could ban all drivers and vehicles without an alternative agreement.
...
Insiders say the prospect of triggering this wave of extra red tape had led to furious rows within Whitehall but the lack of alternatives has forced proposed legislation – the haulage permits and trailer registration bill – to be rushed into the Lords.
...
But the biggest long-term challenge for the UK freight industry is the tiny number of travel permits potentially available for British truck drivers if there is no other solution found through an EU trade deal.

Under existing international treaties there are between 103 and 1,224 permits a year available to deal with more than 300,000 journeys by 75,000 British trucks.
===============================

This would only come into play in a 'no deal' scenario, but we all know that is better than a bad deal, don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 11:00 AM

* the past OR dictionaries

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:05 PM

There is a way around this for people like myself DmCG.

I have enquired about taking my driving test in Ireland and was told I cannot hold two licences.

However I can swop my UK licence for an Irish licence.

I have not as yet enquired as to what this would do to my insurance costs, I suspect they may well escalate somewhat if I were to follow this route.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:25 PM

"It must therefore follow that the leave campaign was better at lying"

Well they were as bad as each other, and it sticks in the craw to think that bloody Osborne was both a leading light and the biggest liar on our side. The leave side, not through any particular talent, had all the best slogans, the sort of stuff parroted out that appealed to the lowest common denominator, things like take back control, unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, ever-closer union, United States of Europe, immigrants driving down our wages, immigrants putting strain on the NHS, immigration out of control, give sovereignty back to parliament, that sort of thing. They didn't even have to rely on the straightness of cucumbers or the size of duck eggs but I bet they were bloody tempted. In any second referendum they'd still have all those but they'd also have the additional one, the clincher, that remoaners are undemocratic and want to keep having referendums until they get the result they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 01:47 PM

"In any second referendum they'd still have all those but they'd also have the additional one, the clincher, that remoaners are undemocratic and want to keep having referendums until they get the result they want".
A clincher indeed! Game, set match I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 02:02 PM

Game, set match I believe.

For whom?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:48 PM

For those that believe that a democratic vote won by the majority should be honoured. An alien concept to labour voters judging by previous performance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:53 PM

But not workers, apparently

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 05:27 PM

vote won by the majority

Which majority is that? You mean like the one that elected tRUMP?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 05:32 PM

Define "the majority," Iains. Don't forget to factor in that 38%, largely of oldies who won't be affected...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 03:35 AM

No need to go round the arguments of the referendum numbers again. It just gives everyone an excuse to avoid looking at the current news

* Japanese statements about moving out of the UK if we leave the customs union and single market
* the consideration of reducing workers rights in government documents
* the parliamentary votes against mechanisms to protect those rights
* the current fights in the government 'war cabinet' and its continuing failure to decide a way forward
* the Irish border rearing its head again
* the impact on hauliers of the licencing

... it goes on and on. And those are only the ones in the news at the moment.

"Game, set and match" - as if this had no more significance than a game of tennis. Dismal.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 04:21 AM

"Define "the majority," Iains."

A well educated scientist, biologist,botanist, bullshit artist should be capable of using a dictionary. And before you start your usual babbling of how many voted for what, read what is below.

As NIGEL said some months ago:
"It's interesting, this idea of retrospectively changing the rules, and retaining the status quo if a certain threshold isn't reached.

Of course, if the 2016 referendum were revised in this strange fashion, we would need to also look at the 1975 referendum which bound us to the EU. That was a 67.23% 'Yes' vote, on the basis of a 64.2% turnout.
So only 43.2% of the eligible electorate voted to bind us to the EU.

That's it, either we stick with the results of the recent referendum and we're out of the EU,
Or, we review (and overturn) both referendums and are out of the EU.


"Simples"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 04:39 AM

No need to go round the arguments of the referendum numbers again. It just gives everyone an excuse to avoid looking at the current news

As you see just above.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 04:46 AM

Ok. A large majority of the electorate did not vote to leave the EU. An even larger majority of those who will be most affected, the young, did not vote to leave. Not one person in this country ticked a box on the ballot paper that said we should leave the customs union and single market. These are the hard facts, Iains. "The people have spoken" is not a hard fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 04:55 AM

No need to go round the arguments of the referendum numbers again. It just gives everyone an excuse to avoid looking at the current news

And in the interests of fairness, the same applies to you, Steve. I deliberately left 15 minutes after Iains' post to give him a chance to address something in the current news, but he chose not to. Now it looks like we are heading off a well worn path where we all know each others' arguments and counter arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 05:42 AM

DmcG. So far all we have is each side trying to outdo each other will the equivalent of halloween scare stories. No hard facts, just forecasts and conjecture.
Until something is fully fleshed out as fact we sit on a very boring magic roundabout, with repetitions of" he said, you said!"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 05:51 AM

" Don't forget to factor in that 38%, largely of oldies who won't be affected... "
Ageism at its worst. Shaw you should be ashamed of yourself. Call yourself a well educated man? You portray all the attributes of a miserable failed self proclaimed union activist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 05:55 AM


DmcG. So far all we have is each side trying to outdo each other will the equivalent of halloween scare stories. No hard facts, just forecasts and conjecture

That's not all we have, by any means. The documents saying reduction of worker's right is considered a possibility is fact, not conjecture. The votes in Parliament against adding supervision to changes to those rights are fact, not conjecture. That the government 'war cabinet' was unable to report an agreed position is fact, not conjecture. The need to introduce the transport bill to address one of the EU stated consequences of a 'no deal' is fact, not conjecture.

All of these are things you can comment on without getting into forecasts or conjecture.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 06:01 AM

If Shaw wishes to disenfranchise a swathe of society I would start by eliminating those that pay zero tax. That would wipe out the young, unemployed, and probably many pensioners.(oh Dear, jeremy!)

My slogan would be: No pay, No say.

(Any past member of the armed services would be entitled to vote for life)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 06:34 AM

Sorry, DMcG, whilst I generally agree with you on this topic, I think it's vitally important to keep banging out those obstinate facts. It could be that we will reach crisis point in the next weeks or months. It may even come to asking the British people that question again. All the arguments for remain that we've articulated far more clearly during the referendum would be required all over again in what will inevitably be another extremely lopsided campaign. We would be up against brexiteers who will be calling us anti-democratic. Every argument in our armoury will be needed and will need to be far more clearly and candidly put than they were in the hysterical, undemocratic referendum campaign. The demograhic details of the vote, which, obviously, we didn't have last time, are grist to our mill. It's my opinion that the remainers have done pretty well in crystallising the arguments, though few leavers have yet been persuaded. On the other hand, leavers are stuck with the stale sloganising that characterised their campaign, and, as events pan out, their arguments look more and more threadbare by the day. You only have to look at Iains' frustrated return to his gutter if you want an example of how worried they are.

Do grow up, by the way, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 06:55 AM

It could be that we will reach crisis point in the next weeks or months

I agree that could happen. As I have said before I am opposed to a second referendum in principle, and the fact it would undoubtedly be as deceitful as last time for the reasons you list just makes me more convinced it would be a bad idea. The 'meaningful' vote in Parliament is, in my view, the right way to go, though how to make it meaningful is a really difficult one, especially as the whipping will be in full force.

Again, an election doesn't seem too promising. Re-electing the Conservatives would not really alter anything - the Irish border question for example would be the same. If Labour won, they would be doomed for years to the blame of 'getting Brexit wrong' whatever happened.

I don't really have a problem with raising the details of the referendum as and when. It just seems rather pointless to do it *here* as the views on both sides are so settled and the arguments so familiar.

So, for example, I would prefer to hear whether leavers here, who argue that Parliament must be sovereign, think it right that Parliament should be refused oversight if a minister wants to change working conditions by using Henry VIII powers. Remember in the future that could be a minister of any political persuasion. That seems more likely to lead to more fruitful discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 07:23 AM

So far all we have is each side trying to outdo each other will the equivalent of halloween scare stories. No hard facts, just forecasts and conjecture.

So, I shall ask once again, game, set and match to who?

Anyway, as DMcG points out. We should be concentrating on the news. There is plenty there and all, seemingly, negative. I know someone asked before but I don't think there was ever a reply. Can anyone come up with any positive news about leaving the EU?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 07:30 AM

I should also like to hear how leavers reconcile their bleating about getting back the sovereignty of parliament, taking back control, etc., with the fact that parliament has not been consulted about the unilateral decision by Theresa May alone that the vote meant that we leave the customs union and single market, a question never put to the country, parliament or even her own cabinet. And that's on top of the Henry VIII power-grab and the thwarted attempt to bypass parliament in invoking Article 50. We've seen this democratic deficit, ironically something the EU is supposed to be guilty of, persistently resorted to by this government. "Democracy is a great idea as long as it suits the Tories" appears to be the new Tory mantra.

By the way, in my last post the sentence "All the arguments for remain that we've articulated far more clearly during the referendum..." should have read "...since the referendum..."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 10:03 AM

There will be no meaningful vote in parliament as party lines will be followed by almost everybody. It will be no more meaningful than the vote to hold a referendum or the vote to invoke Article 50, in both of which hundreds of MPs voted contrary to what they knew to be in the country's best interests for fear of turning their own parties and own careers into toast. This country desperately needs an anti-brexit opposition, and that can happen effectively only when Labour decides to fight for what a majority of its supporters in the electorate and almost its members voted for, which was to stay in the EU. Labour will not win the next election in any case, so that's one less reason for them to hold back. If Labour decide to follow that path in the interests of this country they will be the leading voice in a de facto progressive alliance which will not be far short of the Tory/DUP numbers. And I wouldn't mind betting that a few Tories would "defect." That would be interesting. There's an argument to be made. When I meet other Labour supporters, that's what I'm saying to 'em. And I'm not proposing a democratic sellout here either. Democracy has been sidelined in this country ever since the referendum was first called. I haven't read in any manifesto for democracy that states that the people shall be given a vote after being comprehensively lied to by both sides of the argument for six months.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 11:15 AM

Iains, I do not know one single person of voting age who does not pay tax. We are taxed on nearly everything we do. Pay a fuel bill, it's taxed, buy some petrol,it's taxed, but a beer it's taxed, but a packet of fags it's taxed etc etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 12:30 PM

A child with sufficient income pays tax, same rule as for everyone else. Elderly people on low incomes will have paid tax during their working lives. Anyone who has ever worked has paid national insurance, which is tax. Every household pays council tax, which is tax. As Raggytash says, VAT is paid on most things you buy. Tax. Many imported goods you buy will have been subject to import duties, a tax that is passed on to the consumer. You don't always see the fax you pay but you'd have to be a bloody genius to avoid tax altogether. Point demolished, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 12:55 PM

Income tax! idiots.
Nothing childish about pointing out your ageism shaw. You like to call out others for everything under the sun. You made a distinctly ageist statement- you should apologise and withdraw the remark. But no, you will continue to bluster away as always when caught out.I notice all the crumblies here are keeping very quiet. Too scared to put your heads above the parapet? or you all agree to being disenfranchised?
Pathetic bunch!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 02:00 PM

I am intriged, Iains. My wife left work at 60 but does not draw any pension or have any other source of income until she is 67. Do you insist she should not have the vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 02:02 PM

I'm not blustering. I simply haven't a clue what you're on about, you poor thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 05:04 PM

From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 02:00 PM
I am intrigued, Iains. My wife left work at 60 but does not draw any pension or have any other source of income until she is 67. Do you insist she should not have the vote?

I think your wife should re-check this.
Taking your comment at face value, and giving her the youngest possibility (60th birthday yesterday) her state pension would be due at age 66. If she's any older than 60 years and one day it may be even earlier.
The calculation tool is Here

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 05:27 PM

Thanks for that Nigel. The mistake was mine, and it is indeed 66 she is entitled to the pension.

Still not sure if Iains thinks she should be entitled to vote, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 05:31 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 10:03 AM
There will be no meaningful vote in parliament as party lines will be followed by almost everybody. It will be no more meaningful than the vote to hold a referendum or the vote to invoke Article 50, in both of which hundreds of MPs voted contrary to what they knew to be in the country's best interests for fear of turning their own parties and own careers into toast.

Stated as 'fact', but presumably you mean what you believe to be in the country's best interest.
Maybe the majority of those who voted actually had the country's best interest in mind.

And remember that 'party lines' (for both Conservative & Labour) prior to the referendum were to remain as part of the EU. They have only changed as a result of the vote to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 05:59 PM

Still not sure if Iains thinks she should be entitled to vote,

Of course not. She's a woman, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 08:19 PM

Oh, don't you worry, Nigel. I don't do belief. Belief is confined to your side. You believe that we have no control and need to take it back (though we have enthusiastically espoused 97% of all European laws and, indeed, have played a major part in drawing them up). You believe that immigration is out of control, even though the very sniff of brexit has caused EU immigration to plummet and that non-EU immigration is greater, eminently controllable but has not been controlled. You believe that we can go back to our post-empire sick man of Europe days and force the rest of the planet, you know, China, India, the US, to come crawling to our doors to make fabulous trade deals (you seem to have forgotten how long such things take, and you also seem to have forgotten that we don't make stuff any more, thanks to Maggie, that we can sell). You believe that the EU will come grovelling to us to sell us their goods and that we can somehow hold them to ransom by threatening to buy yankee GM shit and chlorine chickens. Like people of faith, Nigel, your head is in the clouds. Gritty reality has evaded you. And one more thing. You don't really understand how our adversarial realpolitik parliamentary system works, do you? Have you actually paid attention to all those Labour and Tory MPs who have said out loud that they voted for the referendum/article 50 against their consciences? All those who have lamented that, in spite of their instincts, are in hock to their leave-constituents? You are the ultimate Tory denial merchant, Nigel, you know that brexit is a bloody rotten idea but, in line with your fellow-travellers, you hold to your brave-facism. I'll give you a few months. Even you will have to come round sooner rather than later. Use your brain, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 08:35 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 08:19 PM
Oh, don't you worry, Nigel. I don't do belief. Belief is confined to your side.

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:55 AM
Because I believe it will impact hugely on any trade deal we manage to achieve with them.

Contradicting yourself yet once more.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 09:08 PM

Well, Nige, you and I should be in bed really (two singles OK with you?), but tomorrow I'll explain how I can say I believe yet not do belief. If I can be arsed. It'll only be you who's bothered, but I'm nice like that. In the meantime, perhaps you'd care to address the fact that your head is apparently permanently situated in any cumulus congestus that happens to be passing your way apropos of the nitty-gritty of the brexit future that you are so lovingly clinging on to. Nighty night.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 09:20 PM

perhaps you'd care to address the fact that your head is apparently permanently situated in any cumulus congestus

Better than being between the two portions of Gluteus maximus

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 09:53 PM

They are not "portions." They are entirely separate and complete glutei maximi. You have a complete one on each side, Nigel (one hopes). Only if someone has taken the blade to you in order to obtain a nice slice of rump steak would you be left with a portion. So would he, come to think of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:22 AM

Apropos of only voting if you pay income tax.

I felt sure this must have been considered in the voting reforms of 1832, 1872, 1918 and others. This led me to a very good summary of the changes in The History of the Parliamentary Franchise from the House of Commons library. And all the debates have been scanned and can be read at Hansard Millbank Systems, which I admit surprised me a bit. Unfortunately they are simply scans, so they are not easy to browse: you have to go by page number, not date, for example. You are invited to try your luck.

Paying income tax is broadly similar to the pre 1832 scot and lot qualification:

"The scot and lot qualification was based on the householder’s payment (scot) of a share (lot) of local poor and church rates. The potwalloper qualification was a householder who was self-sustaining (they made no claim on poor relief) and who had their own hearth on which they could cook or boil (wallop) a pot."

Suffice it to say that Parliament decided that was not the right way of determining who could and who could not vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:46 AM

"I am intrigued, Iains. My wife left work at 60 but does not draw any pension or have any other source of income until she is 67."

The standard Personal Allowance is £11,500
Standard Pension is around £6350
Anyone on the basic pension is a long way from any tax liability.
Therefore an argument about claiming or not claiming a pension is totally spurious.

No pay, No Say.


Greg. Will we ever have anything other than nonsense posted by you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:20 AM

Anyone on the basic pension is a long way from any tax liability.
Therefore an argument about claiming or not claiming a pension is totally spurious

Well, to begin with she will get other pensions at 67, not just the state one. Secondly, I was not talking about the pension as such, but merely stressing that currently she has no income, and will not for a few years.

So she fits into your "No pay, no say" criterion. The reason I asked was more psychological than anything else. It is very easy to talk in terms of generalities, but some people find it more difficult when you get down to the specific. Nevertheless, not you. "My wife should not be permitted to vote, pure and simple", according to you. It was a position explicitly rejected by Parliament when Disraeli suggested it, but hey, when it comes to Parliamentary supremacy, Iains' views trumps that every time...

But I wonder why you are so unambitious? Surely the next logical step is to have the number of votes proportional to the amount of income tax you pay? Then we could set the clock way back before the reform bills.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:21 AM

Sorry about the italics.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:36 AM

Sorry for the third post in a row, but I will call a personal halt on this diversion now. We are talking, believe it or not, about post Brexit life. Not disenfranchement ideas that Steve never suggested, not the 19th century reforms, not when-I-rule-the-world imaginings, but actual events. And I gave a list of them specially that are purely factual and do not rely on forecasts or conjecture (not that those are bad things even though they have limitations - in the real world they are what 'planning' relies on).

Let's stick to actual news. I got waylaid, but will try to avoid it next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:53 AM

It makes a pleasant change from babblings on weeds, doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:41 AM

Well allow me to combine both strands, Iains. Before this country sees any benefits from brexit, if indeed it ever does, we'll all have long been pushing up daisies (Bellis perennis L.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:12 AM

I don't think anyone saw anything ageist in Steve's comment but you Iains. Is it another case of different language of yet another attempt to derail a discussion that is not going your way? Either way we are better ignoring it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 09:42 AM

Well gnomie I suspect besides being short and fat you must have very dodgy vision. I recommend a trip to specsavers. They'll see you alright. Or perhaps you have wandered off to another planet or deliberately misinterpret language?

Also you and your fellow mudrats are past masters at the art of derailing posts by babbling irrelevancies. I have not yet derailed a discussion unlike your good selves!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:23 AM

A very erudite response as usual. There was nothing ageist said and you know it which is why you resort to abuse.

Now, how about those positive reports about brexit that you must be able to find. Surely someone as anti-EU as you must want to redress the balance?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 10:33 AM

For the gnome:
Courtesy of shaw." Don't forget to factor in that 38%, largely of oldies who won't be affected... "


http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/after-the-referendum-the-ugly-scourge-of-ageism/18499#.WoGyr3zLjIU

http://uk.businessinsider.com/elderly-people-are-suffering-ageist-abuse-after-brexit-2016-7?r=US&IR=T
even the gruniard
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jun/27/brexit-family-rifts-parents-referendum-conflict-betrayal

still in denial?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 11:22 AM

I'm an oldie.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 11:30 AM

I have not yet derailed a discussion

Inanes is channelling Trump........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:16 PM

"I'm an oldie", that surely is the least of your many problems.
Being a well educated scientist, biologist, botanist, ex teacher, former union activist, that does not do belief, and confuses fact with fiction and weaponises whimsy. You have Dissociative identity disorder
perhaps?

Greg. I wonder why you bother to post? I cannot believe anyone takes your stupid, foolish, pointless, brainless, mindless, senseless, doltish, idiotic, imbecilic, insane, ridiculous, ludicrous, absurd, preposterous, nonsensical, fatuous, silly, childish, infantile, puerile, immature, juvenile, inane, witless, half-baked, empty-headed, unintelligent, half-witted, slow-witted, weak-minded; crazy, dumb, cretinous, moronic, gormless, daft,dumb-ass,chowderheaded scribings seriously!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:27 PM

So Boris is to give a speech on Wednesday that "will be seeking to unite Remainers and Leavers" according to 'insiders' as reported by the BBC.

That Boris does not exactly have the best reputation for repairing divisions is not ideal, but let's assume he is playing a straight bat and is open and honest. What would he have to say and do to have a chance of getting me onside?

Firstly, avoid all platitudes. There is no point saying things like "we all want what is best for Britain". Of course we do. We just fundamentally disagree what that is.

Second, avoid patronising. "Don't worry about it, it will be fine" is no good.

Third, say how the Irish border will be resolved. Not things like declarations beforehand and afterwards which can only say what I claim to be transporting, not what I am, or any other scheme that is equally obviously flawed, or puts a hard border in place. And none of the guff about we won't have a border but the EU might. They will only have one if we make it necessary. Having a border at all is the issue and we choose that path that says whether one is necessary or not.

Fourthly, provide proper forecasts of what will happen that do not, like Minford's, tolerate the demise of our faming and manufacturing as an acceptable loss, and where the assumptions are published along with the figures.

Fifthly, write into the withdrawal bill protections for worker's rights and the NHS. We could retain them however we leave Brexit, so we should not be weakening them as part of the process.

Sixthly, actually face up to the concerns of the remainers, don't avoid talking about them.

Seventh ... oh, six should be enough to convince him I will take some persuading.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:45 PM

And, oh, I am quite happy if the leavers want to write out what they think he needs to say so they are willing to share in this national reunion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 01:01 PM

I wonder who got a Thesaurus for Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 01:13 PM

Now if somehow he could only get a brain.......

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 01:24 PM

No matter how you look at it, it is still not an ageist comment nor will it substitute for your lack of ability to produce any good news reports about brexit.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:02 PM

The good news is it has not yet been cancelled. The bad news is we are still on the magic roundabout.

Raggy. google is far more efficient. Copy and paste. Any other way is a wasted effort!

"Now if somehow he could only get a brain....... "
Be careful greg. That mirror can only stand so much abuse!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:31 PM

Just as I thought then. I am very surprised that none of your fellow brexit supporters has helped you in finding some positive forecasts about what will happen when we leave. Could it be because there are none?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:43 PM

Even Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't talk about the Minford forecasts as much as he used to.   Good news for the City, so that's great.

However, every other sector loses out massively., which isn't a very good story to promote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 04:49 AM

Remoaners must be getting worried. They have added death threats to their arsenal. Nice People!???????????


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5354747/Brexiteer-80-sent-death-threat-voting-leave-EU.html

Wishing someone a cancerous new year shows the true nature of remoaners. Feeling proud boys & gals?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 05:38 AM

"Remoaners must be getting worried. They have added death threats to their arsenal. Nice People!???????????"

Several things. It isn't "they." It was one person. Shall I helpfully redraft your sentence for you?

"In isolated cases remainers are resorting to tactics such as death threats, in a single case that we know of targeting an 80-year-old. There is, clearly, no evidence that this is anything other than the work of a criminal mind and does not in any way represent the general demeanour of remainers, any more than the mindset of the Yorkshire Ripper represented the mindset of British men in general."

I think that you should also include the rather unpleasant Zac Goldsmith and the editor of the Daily Mail in your "nice people" characterisation...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 05:44 AM

Meant to ask Iains there if he knows how many of the other 16,141,240 remain voters have sent death threats or wished someone a cancerous new year. Clearly, if it's a majority, I'd be obliged to accept that little "they" in his post. Otherwise...

Iains...?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 06:50 AM

Still no good news then?

I was once wished a slow and painful death by testicular cancer by someone on here who was very much a brexiteer. The post was of course removed and the poster has since passed away. I guess with your logic, Iains, it is OK for me to say that the brexit team are also guilty of such despicable behavior.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 10:16 AM

To date the lowlife behaviour seems restricted to remoaners.
I see shaw is still picking on grammar-what a sad little fellow!
If he has to resort to such devices to massage his ego it says little for the man, doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 10:46 AM

To date the lowlife behaviour seems restricted to remoaners.

Like killing a young mother for her pro-immigration stance for instance?

You are desperately trying to divert attention away from the simple fact that there seems to be no good forecasts about post brexit Britain. It is both blatantly obvious and not working.

So, let us try to address the issue in question again. Aside from Minford, who is being dropped by even the most rabid brexiteers, where are the forecasts of how rosy everything is going to be when we leave?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 10:50 AM

Incidentally, the 'dontcha' affectation, amongst others, was also used by the poster who wished me a slow and painful death in order to try and seem somehow more down to earth and in touch with the common man. Didn't work then. Still dosn't work.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:54 PM

I do not feel the need to desperately try anything laddie!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:57 PM

"To date the lowlife behaviour seems restricted to remoaners."

Standard Teribians horse-shit

I have, on numerous occasions, been told by BrexShiteer-Nutters that, as a Remainer, I'm a 'traitor' who should be 'arrested, marched out at dawn, and shot for treason'.

Your bunch of cunts started it, fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 02:47 PM

Backwoodsman. Backward in all respects and judging by the restricted language either a bad case of tourettes or simply retarded.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:10 PM

If you do not feel the need to divert attention from the lack of positive forecasts then don't do it. Just show us where something good is being said about our future.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:29 PM

If you can read this in 10 minutes you are still alive!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:51 PM

Read what?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 07:56 PM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:10 PM
If you do not feel the need to divert attention from the lack of positive forecasts then don't do it. Just show us where something good is being said about our future.
DtG

The benefits of Brexit need us to escape from the EU. At that point we will start to see the benefits. Those in favour of leaving the EU could give all sorts of predictions of possible benefits, but you wouldn't believe them.
Much as those in favour of Brexit didn't believe the comments of 'Project Fear' quoted by the remain campaign before the referendum.
At least we can look back at those 'predictions' and know for certain that they were a load of tosh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:03 PM

"The benefits of Brexit need us to escape from the EU. At that point we will start to see the benefits.....

"At least we can look back at those 'predictions' and know for certain that they were a load of tosh..."

Facts, Nige? Or opinions dressed up as facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:43 AM

Nigel. All the reports about the negative aspects aspects of credit are forecasts. All I am asking for are positive forecasts to balance that out. To date no one has been able to provide them. Can you?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:55 AM

And it is important to remember that the economy is not the only thing that matters. Rees Mogg told the select committee that standards could match India . So if you had him as PM, and have excluded protection of such things from the withdrawal bill and have May refusing to say the NHS is protected from trade deals, what predictions would you make?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 03:59 AM

I see yer man Bozzer is trying to do what the rest of you are failing at and at least pretending to come up with something positive.

Boris Johnson: Brexit is a reason for hope not fear

Whether it is a load of old bollocks remains to be seen of course but at least he is trying. Very trying at times.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:25 AM

From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel. All the reports about the negative aspects aspects of credit are forecasts. All I am asking for are positive forecasts to balance that out. To date no one has been able to provide them. Can you?

I'm not an economist, I don't provide forecasts. But the negative aspect forecasts are being provided by the same people who forecast that a 60 billion black hole in the economy, an emergency budget, and massive unemployment would immediately follow a vote to leave. So I don't really think that forecasts help that much.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:55 AM

But the negative aspect forecasts are being provided by the same people who forecast that a 60 billion black hole in the economy, an emergency budget, and massive unemployment would immediately follow a vote to leave.

If I remember rightly it was George Osborne that forecast that and Philip Hammond confirmed it. Do you mean to say that Tory politicians have lied to us? Surely not! Besides, that nice Mr Gove had already told us we should take no notice of experts. Good to see he was proved right

How economists are being proved right on Brexit

Oh, sorry, hang on. I must have mis-read that. Surely it is not saying that Gove was talking a load of bollocks as well is it? :-)

Still waiting for that feel good factor...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 05:20 AM

I may as well ask -

Those in favour of leaving the EU could give all sorts of predictions of possible benefits, but you wouldn't believe them.

Well, why don't they even try?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 05:50 AM

"I'm not an economist, I don't provide forecasts..."


"The benefits of Brexit need us to escape from the EU. At that point we will start to see the benefits..."


Seems we have two Nigels here, people!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 06:08 AM

"I'm not an economist, I don't provide forecasts..."
"The benefits of Brexit need us to escape from the EU. At that point we will start to see the benefits..."

Seems we have two Nigels here, people!

I was not making forecasts. I was clarifying that we will need to complete Brexit before we start to see the benefits. I am not attempting to enumerate those benefits, nor put a value to them. Even so, I am confident that we will see benefits. That is called optimism, not forecasting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 06:12 AM

Or brave-facism...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 06:14 AM

That is called optimism, not forecasting.

Gove must be proud of you. No need for expert opinion. Optimism and a brave face will see us through anything. Now, I have these shares for sale that I am very optimistic about. Can I interest you?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 06:39 AM

So let's explore the optimism a bit more. In many cases in life things have to get worse before they get better: you have to live with scaffolding and tarpaulin for some time if you have the roof of your house replaced. You have to do a lot of practice with an instrument before it before to sound tolerable. Now I know a lot of people had little time for ake, but he did acknowledge that there could be years of pain when things are a lot worse than now before Brexit benefits come through.

So are you someone who is optimistic even in the short term, or only long term expecting a short term cost?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 07:18 AM

I accept that there will be costs in the short term (the 'Brexit bill' may be one of them). But I believe that leaving the EU will be better for the future of the UK, and am willing to accept the short term costs.
I do not believe those who say we're leaving the EU and that it will be the next generations that lose. I believe that the UK is capable of being GREAT Britain once we are not shackled to the EU.

I don't say 'Great Britain' to exclude N.Ireland, but to emphasise the 'great' bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 07:33 AM

Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 06:14 AM

Gove must be proud of you. No need for expert opinion. Optimism and a brave face will see us through anything. Now, I have these shares for sale that I am very optimistic about. Can I interest you?

Obviously you don't understand optimism. If you were optimistic about the shares why would you be trying to sell them? Of course, it may be a ruse, Arthur Daley would be proud of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 07:35 AM

I appreciate we all want such costs as low as possible and for as short a time as possible.

Given that, is there anything that for you is "too great a cost", and I include things like environmental damage. If, for example, a US trade deal was made conditional on fracking access to our national parks, what would you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 07:43 AM

Damn! Spotted my ploy :-)

But I believe that leaving the EU will be better for the future of the UK, and am willing to accept the short term costs. I do not believe those who say we're leaving the EU and that it will be the next generations that lose.

This is just what I am trying to get at, Nigel. On what do you base these beliefs? There is nothing backing up your belief that it will be better and tons of stuff saying it will be worse. I desperately want to believe that it will be for the best but no-one has provided the results of any studies indicating that it will be better while there are a plethora of studies that indicate the opposite.

Sorry, stalwart chap that you may be, I do not want to risk the future of my children and grandchildren on baseless optimism.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 08:16 AM

Sorry, stalwart chap that you may be, I do not want to risk the future of my children and grandchildren on baseless optimism.

And if the referendum had gone the other way, what would be your basis for optimism as part of the EU, aiming for ever closer union, and which had recently shown David Cameron that 'changing things from within' was not a realistic option?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 08:24 AM

That is of course just speculation as it did not go 'the other way' did it?

However, if the decision had been to remain then nothing would have changed. My children and children's children would have been free to work anywhere in Europe and we still would have been part of the biggest trading organisation in the world. There is no baseless optimism in that. It is a fact. If you are basing your optimism on the other mans grass being greener then I am afraid you may be in for a shock.

I hope not for all our sakes but to date no-one has provided anything to be optimistic about.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 08:44 AM

However, if the decision had been to remain then nothing would have changed. My children and children's children would have been free to work anywhere in Europe and we still would have been part of the biggest trading organisation in the world. There is no baseless optimism in that.

That was a major failing in the Remain campaign. It was based on the idea that the choice was between the changes that would occur if we left, and the lack of change if we remained. But there was never a promise of the status quo if we remained. EU was always going to be about ever closer union.
It may be that, without the UK holding things back, the ever closer union will progress more quickly, but it would have happened anyway.

It was never 'Change vs Status Quo' it was always going to be about who decided what change we wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 09:00 AM

Why just highlight the part that you think supports your case, Nigel? Do you not think it significant that I went on to explain that "My children and children's children would have been free to work anywhere in Europe and we still would have been part of the biggest trading organisation in the world."? That is the indisputable fact of the matter. Someone else deciding what change we wanted is a complete red herring. The UK has always been instrumental in decision making for both itself and the EU.

But you now seem to channeling Iains in diverting attention from that fact that there are no reports that justify your optimism. Can we get back to the point. Are there any positive forecasts about post brexit life?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 09:14 AM

What on earth do you want forecasts for? You will be demanding the study of tea leaves,entrails, scattered chicken bones and other kinds of augury next. I am afraid my religion forbids any kind of divination. I much prefer to deal in facts. Even shaw cannot dispute them. I would have thought you would have learnt your lesson from the referendum forecasts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 09:49 AM

I much prefer to deal in facts.

OK, some facts about what will happen when we leave the EU then.

We will no longer be entitled to unrestricted travel and employment in Europe.

We will no longer be part of the biggest trading organisation in the world.

Now, give us some facts about the benefits.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 10:00 AM

"It may be that, without the UK holding things back, the ever closer union will progress more quickly, but it would have happened anyway."

You really are hanging on to this for dear life, aren't you? Ever closer union requires steps over which we have a veto, Nigel. Those steps can't happen at all without our say so. It would not "happen anyway." We have already stopped any moves towards an European army. Of course, without our influence, undesirable things MAY occur in what will still be our biggest trading partner, and we will have no say in the trading rules that we will still have to stick to. Oh, and tariffs. Making spiffin' deals with the likes of China and the US will take years and years, all in the context of their protectionism and, in many cases, low standards. Of course, the elephant in the room is our financial services sector, which we still aren't hearing much about in spite if its being four-fifths of our economy. You won't be getting much from the US and China on that score.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 11:28 AM

D the G.
Acts 2:17-38 King James Version(first line)
When it has come to pass it will become established fact. Supposing what might be prior to this point is merely conjecture, and therefore meaningless.
I suggest you hop back on the magic roundabout and keep going around.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3DcChXNyYQ

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 11:43 AM

So God favors Brexit, then. In the Bible- must be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 12:25 PM

Greg. Away with the faeries again? Are you simply tripping by or attempting to troll?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:13 PM

So, even though none of you can let us know any benefits of leaving the EU, you still voted to do so just on the basis that it will somehow be better when it happens. Your only response to anyone who wishes to remain is to tell them 'tough luck' or that they are deluded and resort to abuse.

Come on chaps. If leaving is going to be the panacea that you believe it will be give us something to be optimistic about. What is post brexit life going to be like if none of the economists, business leaders and politicians who want us to remain are so wrong?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:13 PM

So, even though none of you can let us know any benefits of leaving the EU, you still voted to do so just on the basis that it will somehow be better when it happens. Your only response to anyone who wishes to remain is to tell them 'tough luck' or that they are deluded and resort to abuse.

Come on chaps. If leaving is going to be the panacea that you believe it will be give us something to be optimistic about. What is post brexit life going to be like if none of the economists, business leaders and politicians who want us to remain are so wrong?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:14 PM

Have I said that before?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:17 PM

Most disturbing damage by Brexit has just been announced
Arlene Foster has waked out of the The Irish Peace discussions, leaving the future of the Six Counties in doubt and the possibility of an outbreak of hostilities
Well done Little England
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:29 PM

The other disturbing thing that is at the back of my mind is that if UK leaves EU there would be no safeguards against restoring capital punishment in the UK.

The upshot of that is that a jury of decent people could be forced to find a child murderer not guilty on principle, putting other children at risk rather than being party to putting someone to death.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:39 PM

I know what you mean, SPB, but we did abolish capital punishment before we joined the EU. I don't think we need to go to such extremes to underline the dangers. There are plenty ways in which people are going to be damaged without such tenuous links.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 03:52 PM

More scare stories from the remoaners.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DySJslyy6b4

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:47 PM

One for Nigel. BBC News website.

The president of the European Commission has said claims he wants to create a European "superstate" are "total nonsense".
Jean-Claude Juncker said some Britons wrongly saw him as a "stupid, stubborn federalist".
He was responding to a speech about Brexit by UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson.
Mr Johnson said the EU wanted to create an "overarching European state" and that integration was deepening...

...Asked about the foreign secretary's remarks, Mr Juncker replied: "Some in the British political society are against the truth, pretending that I am a stupid, stubborn federalist, that I am in favour of a European superstate.
"I am strictly against a European superstate. We are not the United States of America, we are the European Union, which is a rich body because we have these 27, or 28, nations.
"The European Union cannot be built against the European nations, so this is total nonsense."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:10 AM

Jaoan thinks Brexit an act of self harm according to UK ambassador

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:55 AM

Still no positive news being reported then, Iains? Even by the anti-EU press?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:30 AM

Yes we are finding out more aboutcommie corbyn.
No smoke without fire now is there boyo?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5581166/jeremy-corbyn-communist-spy-cold-war-briefings/

You remoaners keep some dodgy company!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:57 AM

"Yes we are finding out more aboutcommie corbyn."
What a load of Cold-War garbage from a perfect source - a tabloid bumwipe - The Sun, for cryig out loud!!
A bit rich from a supporter of a government who has recently bunged a political party with known terrorist connections ?billion of the BRITISH TAXPAYER'S MONEY to dig themselves out of a hole created by an incompetent leader
That same Government is now in the process of breaking up the British Union with it's incompetence - once again with the help of the same party with terrorist connections
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 04:12 AM

Even it that is true about Corbyn - and I make no statement either way - in what sense is it evidence Brexit will benefit the country?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 04:29 AM

There is no such evidence, DMcG, which is why those supporting brexit on here are using every trick in the book to obfuscate that very point. As I said earlier it is blatantly obvious that they cannot find any such reports.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 04:37 AM

Blimey, talk about feeding on thin gruel! Nice pic of the Tyn Church in Prague though. I loved it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 04:39 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:47 PM

One for Nigel. BBC News website.

The president of the European Commission has said claims he wants to create a European "superstate" are "total nonsense".
Jean-Claude Juncker said some Britons wrongly saw him as a "stupid, stubborn federalist".
He was responding to a speech about Brexit by UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson.
Mr Johnson said the EU wanted to create an "overarching European state" and that integration was deepening...

...Asked about the foreign secretary's remarks, Mr Juncker replied: "Some in the British political society are against the truth, pretending that I am a stupid, stubborn federalist, that I am in favour of a European superstate.
"I am strictly against a European superstate. We are not the United States of America, we are the European Union, which is a rich body because we have these 27, or 28, nations.
"The European Union cannot be built against the European nations, so this is total nonsense."

This from the same Mr Juncker who, in his state of the union address 2017 was calling for a single Finance Minister for the EU, and a European Monetary Fund:

Europe has to be able to act quicker and more decisively, and this also applies to theEconomic and Monetary Union.

The euro area is more resilient now than in years past. We now have the European Stabilisation Mechanism (ESM). I believe the ESM should now progressively graduate into a European Monetary Fund which, however, must be firmly anchored in the European Union's rules and competences. The Commission will make concrete proposals for this in December.

We need a European Minister of Economy and Finance: a European Minister that promotes and supports structural reforms in our Member States. He or she can build on the work the Commission has been doing since 2015 with our Structural Reform Support Service. The new Minister should coordinate all EU financial instruments that can be deployed if a Member State is in a recession or hit by a fundamental crisis.

I am not calling for a new position just for the sake of it. I am calling for efficiency. The Commissioner for economic and financial affairs ; ideally also a Vice-President ; should assume the role of Economy and Finance Minister. He or she should also preside the Eurogroup.

The European Economy and Finance Minister must be accountable to the European Parliament.

We do not need parallel structures. We do not need a budget for the Euro area but a strong Euro area budget line within the EU budget.

I am also not fond of the idea of having a separate euro area parliament.

The Parliament of the euro area is this European Parliament.

That looks to me like 'federalist' ideals.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 04:46 AM

Worth reading closely the legalistic wording of this statement provided to the Sun by “Agent COB”: concerning corbyn.

    “The claim that he was an agent, asset or informer for any intelligence agency is entirely false and a ridiculous smear. Like other MPs, Jeremy has met diplomats from many countries. In the 1980s he met a Czech diplomat, who did not go by the name of Jan Dymic, for a cup of tea in the House of Commons. Jeremy neither had nor offered any privileged information to this or any other diplomat.”

Jezza says he “neither had nor offered” any “privileged information” to the Czech spy. That is denying something different. The Czech secret police files claim Corbyn gave them a newspaper article about MI5 and discussed his take on British security measures, neither of which would count as “privileged“. There is no denial from Corbyn that he passed information to Britain’s enemies at the height of the Cold War. What did he talk to them about? Was he really naive enough to believe this was just a “diplomat”? Many questions to answer…

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 05:01 AM

Jim,
Arlene Foster has waked out of the The Irish Peace discussions,

The problem is that Sinn Fein demand legal recognition for the Irish language even though no-one speaks it in the North.
The DUP would be fine with that as long as there is also recognition for the majority culture, but Sinn Fein insists it must be Irish language alone or nothing.

None of which has anything to do with Brexit, so what was your point Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 05:17 AM

Iains
The Czech secret police files claim Corbyn gave them a newspaper article about MI5 and discussed his take on British security measures

The problem is that the Czech secret police are not an organisation that can be trusted to tell the truth. Nor is the Sun.

None of which has anything to do with Brexit, so what was your point, Iains?

Good holiday, Keith?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 05:40 AM

so what was your point, Iains?
No point at all other than your fearless leader has a few character defects. Maybe you will bear it in mind next time you babble on about weeds, cheeses, long walks and other irrelevancies when derailing threads. Sauce for the goose and al that.,.

Anyway more little gems on Saint Jeremy of Islington and the Allotments:

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/jeremy-corbyn-and-his-followers-are-in-denial-about-his-past/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 05:44 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 05:44 AM

Are you trying to be alarmist again, Nigel? That was a pretty anodyne piece, n'est-ce pas? I mean:

"We do not need a budget for the Euro area..." Agreed!

"I am also not fond of the idea of having a separate euro area parliament... The Parliament of the euro area is this European Parliament." Agreed!

"...The European Economy and Finance Minister must be accountable to the European Parliament." Agreed!

The European Parliament, an elected body Nigel, is sovereign. The commissioners can't sneak stuff past it as Theresa May has tried to do with our parliament with her Article 50 fiasco and her Henry VIII bill. Big proposed moves can be and are vetoed. You are clutching at straws and have made no case whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 05:48 AM

Iains, old chap, let me remind you that targeting Corbyn at the expense of actually discussing the substantive is precisely what lost the feckless Theresa May her majority. Don't let us stop you, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 09:53 AM

About 10% of the population of Northern Ireland can speak the Irish Language. In the Republic many people are bi-lingual but English remains the major Language.

No-one has suggested that Irish should replace English in Northern Ireland. FACT.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 10:34 AM

No-one has suggested that Irish should replace English in Northern Ireland. FACT.

Sigh. That's OK, Raggy - just the usual fact-filled post from The Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 11:25 AM

"No point at all other than your fearless leader has a few character defects. "
He doesn't give Billions-worth of bungs to politicians with terrorist links
"even though no-one speaks it in the North."
Are you joking Keith?
Even if it were true, which it patently is not, Irish culture, north and south is based on the Irish language
Arlene Foster actually agree in a compromise and took it back to her party - the rednecks threw it back in her face
Irish kids (even the "brainwashed" ones) have managed reasonably well to become bi-lingual ansd anybody knows, once you develop linguistic skills to that level, it becomes much easier to learn other languages
You Little Englanders certainly are a blast from the Imperial past
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 12:20 PM

I have three children educated in Ireland. They may have learnt Irish, the same as I learnt Latin and French. They are certainly not bilingual. According to the 2016 Republic of Ireland census 73,803 people speak the Irish language daily in the Republic of Ireland outside the education system including 20,586 people who speak it every day in the Gaeltacht outside the education system.According to the 2011 census, 1.77 million people in Ireland claimed they could speak Irish, which is 41% of the population. While this looks impressive on paper, it says nothing about the level of Irish people have or if they ever use it. Bit of a disconnect there I think.
A bit like jimmies little englanders. I did not know we had an English race of dwarfs, I always thought the little people were something to do woth Ireland. Perhaps jimmy has spent too much time with the littlepeople. In his case away with the faeries.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 12:58 PM

Although I am of sufficient Irish descent to get a passport, I don't feel qualified to make more than this one comment. Jim is absolutely right, in my view, when he refers to "Irish culture, north and south is based on the Irish language".

This is, on both sides, about personal sense of identity. The number of people who speak Irish, and how good they are at it, is irrelevant, since it is about how people see themselves, not proving the accuracy of that perception.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:11 PM

"A bit like jimmies little englanders"
No capitals, no commas, woth Ireland, name spelt incorrectly
How are your kids in English ?
Hope they don't look on you as an example . Perhaps jimmy has spent too much "littlepeople"
Are they racists like their old man?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:23 PM

I do not argue that Irish culture is based in part upon the gaelic language.If you read my post instead of firing from the hip you would notice culture played zero part in my post. Irish Culture deserves far more than a one liner.
I took issue with the following:
"Irish kids (even the "brainwashed" ones) have managed reasonably well to become bi-lingual ansd anybody knows, once you develop linguistic skills to that level, it becomes much easier to learn other languages"
The statistics give the lie to that statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:32 PM

Rag,
About 10% of the population of Northern Ireland can speak the Irish Language. In the Republic many people are bi-lingual but English remains the major Language.

People have taken the trouble to learn it, but it is not spoken.
You never hear it in a pub say as you still can in a few places in the Republic.

Jim,
Arlene Foster actually agree in a compromise and took it back to her party - the rednecks threw it back in her face

The DUP were happy for the language to be recognised, but asked that the majority culture received some recognition too.
Sinn Fein was too intolerant to accept anything else.

DMcG
Jim is absolutely right, in my view, when he refers to "Irish culture, north and south is based on the Irish language".

The culture of the Unionist people, still the majority in the North, has no connection with the Irish language.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:51 PM

You never hear it in a pub

Been in every pub in Northern Ireland have you, Profesor?

    Lord have mercy....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:00 PM

The Gaeltacht covers extensive parts of counties Donegal, Mayo, Galway and Kerry – all along the western seaboard – and also parts of counties Cork, Meath and Waterford.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:21 PM

This is one way of getting the kids involved. They look like they are having a ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A6__HssHW8&list=RD1A6__HssHW8

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:25 PM

"The DUP were happy for the language to be recognised, "
Nope - Forster was prepared to compromise but her party kicked it into touch

"People have taken the trouble to learn it, but it is not spoken."
Plenty of it spoken around here
What do you speak on something you know nothing about
Irish was dying at one stage now it is making a comeback as people realise that it is an important part of their identity - even spoken English here is based on Irish language speech patterns
The bookshops now cover Irish language books and have separate sections - even the Irish Times covers a page of it
There are several radio programmes entirely in Irish and one of the four major stations TG4 is based on the Irish language
Some of te major Journals, aprticularly cultural ones are Irish-based Bh?oloideas, being the Folklore one
You litle Englanders make me howl - you fuck up the economy, divide the people, cause an increase in racism, put the jobs of many thousands of British people ar risk, bring about a sharp increase in racism, rigsk the break-up of Brtiann.... and all the other Bexit shit so "Britain can have her own identity", yet when other countries try to do the same you tell them thaey don't need it
Who are you people and why didn't you all disappear in a puff of smeoke when the Empire collapsed
One of the constant questions I have to as is why don't the Irish hate the British
I suppose everybody needs someone to laugh at
Anyway - it'll all be academic when Brexit runs its course and brings about a UNITED IRELAND - that's where May and her circus are heading for
You people have never learned anything from history, do you?
I'd have thught the mass meurder of the Leadersd of Easter Week should have taught you something - yet woru still occupy your little Red, White and Blue world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 06:19 PM

"
"A bit like jimmies little englanders"
No capitals, no commas, woth Ireland, name spelt incorrectly
How are your kids in English ?
Hope they don't look on you as an example . Perhaps jimmy has spent too much "littlepeople"
Are they racists like their old man?"

What a pathetic little man you are jimmy. I think we can leave my children out of this. The fact that you feel it necessary to bring them into the discussion does not say much for your character does it?
In fact you are something I would make a point of scraping off my boot before venturing into the house, as you would definitely pose a health hazard.

You have some nerve to pick holes in my postings. Hell you cannot even copy and paste without screwing it up, and you obviously put so much bile into your posts that you fire them away before even proofreading them.
If all you can post are spittle flecked rants perhaps you should stop. It appears that all you manage accomplish with threads is fuck them up. Maybe you should spend more time in the rocking chair and less on the keyboard. You may feel that you are a self proclaimed expert on folkmusic but judging by your posts on other subjects expertise is not the word that springs to mind when considering the content. You are an anachronism- Why do you not just go away?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 07:15 PM

Calm down and have another six pints, Iains. It was you who brought your children into the discussion. Check yourself out at 12.20, and the only spittle-flecked rant today was your last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:25 AM

"jimmy. "
You spelled it right this time - must have sobered up
" I think we can leave my children out of this."
You brought them in when you tried to tell the Irish what they needed and what they didn't
It must be difficult for them to have to have been brought up by a racist - hope they turned out with more compassion and common humanity than theirt old man
"in the rocking chair and less on the keyboard."
Ageist as well - jaysus - they really did have an uphill battle, didn't they?
"Why do you not just go away?"
In your dreams boyo - and miss the fun of watching you humiliate yourself!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:30 AM

So Shaw you support this statement by jimmy the ranter?
"Are they racists like their old man?"

Puts you in the same category of lowlife as jimmy. We all know that the ranter makes no attempt to control what he posts but for a "well educated whatever you are I am surprised you support him insulting people he has never met and thankfully never likely to.
But then you mudrats do like to stick together.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:34 AM

Jim,
"The DUP were happy for the language to be recognised, "
Nope - Forster was prepared to compromise but her party kicked it into touch

Jim, the DUP position is that the Irish language should be recognised but also Ulster Scots.
Sinn Fein's intolerant, belligerent and sectarian position is that the Irish language only can be recognised and nothing else is acceptable.

Here are the relevant quotes from the Guardian;


"He (Sinn F?in's national chairman) said that only a "standalone" Irish Language Act that excludes other languages spoken in Northern Ireland from this legislation was acceptable."

"The former first minister (Robinson DUP) stressed that an Irish Language Act "can be accommodated" as long as Ulster Scots is also supported in the same legislation.
Robinson continued: "It is entirely legitimate for Sinn F?in to press for an Irish Language Act and of course there is every need for all the parties to respect, and where possible, accommodate differences. but that can never be a one-way street."
"There is no credibility in asserting your need to have your culture respected if you blatantly disrespect that of others.

"So let's see a sensible deal. Who can complain if there are those who cherish the Irish language or who passionately support Ulster Scots culture? Who would find it unacceptable for arrangements to be put on a statutory basis to protect and support both? Both can be accommodated."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/27/irish-language-act-hampering-northern-ireland-power-sharing-talks

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:41 AM

I agree that children and family should be left completely out of these arguments. Mentioning your own family and their achievements is an exception.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:42 AM

The British Chamber of Commerce chief has rather put the lie to immigration being a problem for the UK, a kick in the pants for many Brexiteers I believe.


Immigration Worries

It would seem we rather rely on immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:57 AM

From Wiki:

"Some definitions of Ulster Scots may also include Standard English spoken with an Ulster Scots accent"

Ulster Scots

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:10 AM

Rag, the headline from your link, "Business leader warns May against harsh immigration policy "

No-one wants a harsh immigration policy.
People with valuable skills will always be welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:17 AM

"What do you speak on something you know nothing about
Irish was dying at one stage now it is making a comeback as people realise that it is an important part of their identity"
?????????

"A comprehensive study published in 2007 on behalf of Údarás na Gaeltachta found that young people in the Gaeltacht, despite their largely favourable view of Irish, use the language less than their elders. Even in areas where the language is strongest, only 60% of young people use Irish as the main language of communication with family and neighbours, and English is preferred in other contexts.[11] The study concluded that, on current trends, the survival of Irish as a community language in Gaeltacht areas is unlikely. A follow-up report by the same author published in 2015 concluded that Irish would die as a community language in the Gaeltacht within a decade.[12]

The Irish government has adopted a twenty-year strategy designed to strengthen the language in all areas and greatly increase the number of habitual speakers. This includes the encouragement of Irish-speaking districts in areas where Irish has been replaced by English.[13] The 2015 independent report on the Gaeltacht commissioned by Údarás na Gaeltachta, however, does not regard this strategy as likely to be successful without a radical change in policy at national level."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:19 AM

People with valuable skills will always be welcome.

What about refugees with nowhere else to go or those fleeing from regimes where death and torture are commonplace? Are you saying that the only people we should let in are those who can serve us well?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:32 AM

I wonder Dave what "valuable skills" are required to pick fruit and vegetables.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:44 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:19 AM

People with valuable skills will always be welcome.

What about refugees with nowhere else to go or those fleeing from regimes where death and torture are commonplace? Are you saying that the only people we should let in are those who can serve us well?

We should always have room for refugees (although not a limitless number). But we see (comparatively) few. David Cameron arranged to take refugees directly from camps in Northern Africa, thus discouraging the dangerous crossing of the Med.
The 'refugees' gathered in Calais would not be refugees if they come to UK, as they are not under threat from France.
The open door policy of Angela Merckel has made the situation worse than it previously was.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 06:07 AM

In Raggy's link it says:
=====
Surveys by the BCC showed that nearly three-quarters of firms trying to recruit had been experiencing difficulties "at or near the highest levels since [BCC] records began over 25 years ago", he said.
=====
So that is the position today. Any statement about what the upcoming immigration policy will be has to be viewed against the criterion of whether it will ease or worsen that situation. At the moment all we hear are the generalities about controlled immigration, rather than enough detail to answer the question.

Which, to remind people, is oxcurring today. Not some forecast, not waiting until Brexit happens, nor anything wlse that avoids faxing the issue now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 06:09 AM

Facing. Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 06:42 AM

"A comprehensive study published in 2007 on behalf of Údarás na Gaeltachta found that young people in the Gaeltacht, despite their largely favourable view of Irish, use the language less than their elders."
That is because of the migratory nature of the Irish people - at the time of the Celtic Tiger, when there was work at home, Irish regained some of its former popularity
It is proof thet Irish is still considered significantly important tot to be let die out
Masses of Irish literature is in Gaelic and probably will never be translated - new works are appearing constantly
I've heard loud enough howls about English culture being swamped by immigrant culture in schools yet you people are quite happy to dictate that Irish should be let disappear
The Little English want to have their cake and eat it
The DUP is an extremist party with terrorist links - it no longer has a majority support in the North and has to rely on other partieds
Pretty soon the religious balance will change in favour of Irish nationalist culture, it is wrong that Unionists who have forcibly attempted to destroy native Irish culture since 1922 should have any say in as important an issue as language.
It s certainly has nothing to do with Little Brits who are in the process of fucking up their own culture and social structure
You peop;le really need to keep your noses out of the affairs of other countries - the world is still in bloody turmoil over the mess left behind after centuries of British domination - Asia, The Middle East, Africa.... still post-colonial battlefields
Your Empoire is as dead as Ancient Rome - learn to live with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 06:53 AM

I have heard it said that if people want to study the written Irish language they should go to the Vatican as many of the texts held there are written in Irish Gaelic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 07:53 AM

"We should always have room for refugees (although not a limitless number). But we see (comparatively) few. David Cameron arranged to take refugees directly from camps in Northern Africa, thus discouraging the dangerous crossing of the Med.
The 'refugees' gathered in Calais would not be refugees if they come to UK, as they are not under threat from France.
The open door policy of Angela Merckel has made the situation worse than it previously was."

You do realise that you are talking about real, live, vulnerable human beings, people the same as you and me but a damn sight less lucky, do you, Nigel? People escaping from countries that we have either ruthlessly exploited in the past and left impoverished, people from countries that our foreign policy has completely screwed up, or both?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 08:01 AM

But Steve, they are damned furriners ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 08:26 AM

They come here, Dave, drivin' down us wages, stealing us daughters, cloggin' up us 'ealth service, mekkin' funny wailin' noises from them mosque wotsits...

...showin' us what real food is, fixin' plummin and lecturing c, runnin' cheap all-night taxis when us needs to get 'ome pissed, cleanin' us Premier Inns, pickin' us veg and daffs, wipin' us old folks' bums fer next ter nowt, lookin' after us sick, doctorin' us when us 'as funny turns...bugger...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 08:30 AM

"Lecturing c" was meant to be "lectric!"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 08:43 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 07:53 AM
You do realise that you are talking about real, live, vulnerable human beings, people the same as you and me but a damn sight less lucky, do you, Nigel? People escaping from countries that we have either ruthlessly exploited in the past and left impoverished, people from countries that our foreign policy has completely screwed up, or both?

Yes, I do understand what refugees are.
I don't agree that this all stems from our foreign policy. Whether all refugees are from ex-British colonies, whether it is that colonial past (rather than more recent dictators / religious uprisings) which has caused their current problems.
Whether any of this is caused by trying to increase the population in lands which cannot cope with an increased population.

What I am not trying to do is belittle the suffering of these people, just clarify whether there is any justification to your claim that our (past) foreign policy is the sole (or even part) cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 09:34 AM

Dave,
What about refugees with nowhere else to go or those fleeing from regimes where death and torture are commonplace? Are you saying that the only people we should let in are those who can serve us well?

You are confusing immigration with asylum.
Brexit only effects immigration. Acceptance of refugees and asylum seekers will be unchanged.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 09:40 AM

Jim, your last rant was not relevant to anything discussed here.
Whatever your view of DUP, they are happy for the Irish language to be recognised in law, but want the majority culture recognised equally.
Sinn Fein want Irish language only and nothing else is acceptable to them. Is that your view too?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 10:07 AM

"People escaping from countries that we have either ruthlessly exploited in the past and left impoverished, people from countries that our foreign policy has completely screwed up, or both?"
Opinion masquerading as fact again.
Now for some facts:(you read it in the Guardian. You know it makes sense.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/09/what-caused-the-refugee-crisis-google

Jimmy you are talking shit again. No one wants to listen to you!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 10:13 AM

"Jim, your last rant was not relevant to anything discussed here."
Not a rant Keith - a fact
Irish history is stained with the blood of English interference
"but want the majority culture recognised equally."
Equality has been ignored, even suppressed for nearly a century - now, when an equilibrium is being reached all of a sudden it has become important to you people
Sinn Fein want nothing of the sort you eejit - they want a positive discrimination that will restore Irish back into the North after centuries of suppression
Do you sertiously believe that any party would attempt to remove a dominant language from the curriculum
Ulstre Scotch is a dialect rather than a language and that is established where people choose to use it
We are talking about an entirely different language that has been virtually driven out of existence by a foreign power
Mind your own business for crying out loud - howw many times have you told me I have no say in what happens in England because I no loner live there, even though I was born and spent well over half my life there?
You appear to have spent a few holidays here butt out ad learn your lesson
It's academic anyway - if the British Government go on the way they are doing, they will lose both England and Scotland
ou talk about "majorites - how about the fact that the sicx counties and Scotland vored against Brexit - are you going to give them the right to back out?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 10:30 AM

"ruthlessly exploited in the past and left impoverished,"
Strange. I see nothing in the article below to support the statement. But never let the facts get in the way of a good story. After all we learned from Paul Joseph Goebbels that the sound bite is all important, never mind the truth.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisis-migrants-bangladesh-libya-italy-numbers-smuggling-dhaka-dubai-turk

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 10:47 AM

You are confusing immigration with asylum.

I'm not confusing anything with anything. I am clarifying what was meant by "People with valuable skills will always be welcome".

Brexit only effects immigration. Acceptance of refugees and asylum seekers will be unchanged.

How can anyone possibly know that when no-one knows what the full effects of brexit will be yet?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 10:54 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 08:26 AM

They come here, Dave, drivin' down us wages, stealing us daughters, cloggin' up us 'ealth service, mekkin' funny wailin' noises from them mosque wotsits...

...showin' us what real food is, fixin' plummin and lecturing c, runnin' cheap all-night taxis when us needs to get 'ome pissed, cleanin' us Premier Inns, pickin' us veg and daffs, wipin' us old folks' bums fer next ter nowt, lookin' after us sick, doctorin' us when us 'as funny turns...bugger...

And before that it was the Romans. And what did they ever do for us?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 12:48 PM

Dave,
Brexit only effects immigration. Acceptance of refugees and asylum seekers will be unchanged.

How can anyone possibly know that when no-one knows what the full effects of brexit will be yet?

Easy Dave. Immigration from EU is a Brexit issue.
Other immigrants, refugees and asylum seekers are irrelevant to the issue of EU membership.

Jim, your last rant was also irrelevant to anything discussed here.
Please be clear, do you agree with DUP that both cultures should be treated equally, or with Sinn Fein that nothing but the Irish language be recognised in law?

Guardian,
"Sinn Fein wants a standalone piece of legislation to protect speakers – an Irish Language Act – but the DUP has long insisted it would only countenance new laws if they also incorporate other cultures, such as Ulster Scots. "
http://www.northwichguardian.co.uk/families/national/15991612.Irish_language_debate_hinders_hopes_of_Stormont_powersharing_breakthrough/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 03:40 PM

Jim ........... hoops, hoops and more hoops!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:06 PM

Keith: when people refer to the "Guardian" they usually mean the national newspaper, not the provincial paper "The Northwich Guardian"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:30 PM

Thanks for making my point for me, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:59 PM

Acceptance of refugees and asylum seekers will be unchanged.

"How can anyone possibly know that when no-one knows what the full effects of brexit will be yet?"

Because the UK is signed up to the The Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees.This is a key treaty in international refugee law which entered into force on 4 October 1967. 146 countries are parties to the Protocol. The earlier 1951 United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees placed both temporal and geographic restrictions on refugees. Interestingly the US is a signatory to the earlier convention, but not the later Convention.

The principle of non-refoulement, which prohibits the return of a refugee to a territory where his or her life or freedom is threatened, is considered a rule of customary international law. As such it is binding an all States, regard-less of whether they have acceded to the 1951 Convention or 1967 Protocol.

A "migrant" is anyone who seeks to move overseas. A "refugee" does so in conditions where they have been forced from their homeland. And an "asylum seeker" is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 07:37 PM

Acceptance of refugees and asylum seekers will be unchanged.

"How can anyone possibly know that when no-one knows what the full effects of brexit will be yet?"

Because the UK is signed up to the The Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees.This is a key treaty in international refugee law which entered into force on 4 October 1967. 146 countries are parties to the Protocol. The earlier 1951 United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees placed both temporal and geographic restrictions on refugees. Interestingly the US is a signatory to the earlier convention, but not the later Convention.

The principle of non-refoulement, which prohibits the return of a refugee to a territory where his or her life or freedom is threatened, is considered a rule of customary international law. As such it is binding an all States, regard-less of whether they have acceded to the 1951 Convention or 1967 Protocol.

A "migrant" is anyone who seeks to move overseas. A "refugee" does so in conditions where they have been forced from their homeland. And an "asylum seeker" is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated.

Thank you Iains. And for the benefit of those who cannot understand plain English.
The above agreements were entered into before the UK became part of the EU. Us leaving the EU should have no effect upon these agreements.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 08:17 PM

Those protocols apply to refugees already in this country. What we are currently doing is striving as hard as we can to keep them out in the first place so that we won't have to apply the protocols. 0nly 20,000 in five years under the Tories, remember, Nigel and Iains? Who do you think you're trying to kid?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 10:42 AM

The vast majority of refugees make landfall in mainland europe. Their status and future treatment is determined by international law in whatever country they first landed. Their subsequent migration within Europe is strangely enough with the status of migrants.Different laws apply.
To spell this out to the slow of thought, the protocols apply as soon as the asylum seeker makes landfall in europe. Subsequent travel within Europe is either with permission to retain refugee status, or merely as migrants(economic?)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 10:58 AM

https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/under-new-eu-rules-refugees-face-asylum-rejection-if-they-leave-country-of-a

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 11:14 AM

"No one wants to listen to you!"
Speakeing for the wrld again Iains?
Little has changed in a DECADE and a HALF
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 11:48 AM

Speakeing for the wrld again Iains?

I see our sour little scouser is still biting on lemons as he gibbers away! Tell me, are your random keystrokes part of a contest between yourself and a monkey? To see who can type something sensible first?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 11:56 AM

"I see our sour little scouser is still biting on lemons as he gibbers away!"
Yep - still at a loss for an answer - try therapy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 01:27 PM

I.m glad you agree with me about gibbering. does your speech have as many impediments as your attempted spelling? try less lemon!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 01:52 PM

"I.m glad "
It seems we both have typo problems
Do tyou have problems with people with speech impediments - would fit in with your ageism and racism
Hope it isn't in the genes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 02:08 PM

you like this idea of relaxation of standards or you may not. But is it what Leavers voted for?

(By the way, I do have a speech impediment.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 02:58 PM

My only problem is with your gratuitous insults. They are compromising two threads at the moment and several contributors have commented on your abysmal behaviour. You are not very good at taking advice are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 05:32 PM

By a very long chalk, Iains, you are the most gratuitously insulting person on this board that we've seen here for years. The fact that you can accuse anyone else of being insulting, in the light of your own own dismal record, speaks volumes about your unstable mental state. You are clearly not normal. You seriously need to take stock, preferably by taking time out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 03:37 AM

Stop insulting me, I stop retaliating. SIMPLES!
Shaw your unwarranted post is simply trolling. You and your fellow mudrats are constantly accusing me of being drunk, insecure and a host of other insults to try to give more authority to your ramblings.

             physician, heal thyself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:13 AM

The story is growing legs.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/920394/jeremy-corbyn-spy-links-czechoslovakia-espionage-select-committee-investigation-p

I wonder which story has most substance? Labour spying, or Russian election shenanigans in the US?
I cannot wait to see how this develops. 13 Russians take on the might of the FBI, CIA,NSA and a alphabet soup of other agencies and perform their dastardly deed to swing the Presidential election? Yeah, Right????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:17 AM

Still nothing to do with Brexit, though, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:17 AM

The media campaign against Corbyn has been relentless since he was elected. This is yet another example.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:41 AM

Professor Anthony Glees "EXPERT on TERROR"
You can't blame the Tories - their ongoing incompetence has made an election inevitable - crap like this are only the first shots
You ain't seen nuffin' yet!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 06:17 AM

DMcG, the publication was irrelevant because what I posted was not editorial opinion but direct quotes of Kearney and Robinson giving the positions of their respective parties, Sinn Fein and the DUP.

Do you challenge any of that?
If not you accept the FACT that DUP is demanding equal recognition for both cultures, in line with the spirit and letter of the GFA, while Sinn Fein wants recognition only for their culture.

Here is Kearney (Sinn Fein) quoted by Jim's Irish Times.
"There must be a free-standing acht na Gaeilge, Irish language act. It is essential to ensure that we see the re-establishment of the political institutions. It is absolutely pivotal to the rights and equality agenda here in the north of Ireland."

Now Robinson (DUP) from the same Irish Times article.
"Earlier, former DUP leader and First Minister Peter Robinson supported the DUP argument that any agreement in relation to Irish must involve a composite act that also embraced Ulster Scots.
"There is no credibility in asserting your need to have your culture respected if you blatantly disrespect that of others," Mr Robinson posted on Facebook."
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sinn-f?in-and-dup-remain-deadlocked-as-time-for-deal-narrows-1.3135466

Another Irish Times article,
"The DUP wants a composite Act that also embraces Ulster Scots, while Sinn F?in is insistent on a stand-alone Irish language Act. "
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/british-and-irish-sources-reject-sinn-f?in-s-stormont-demands-1.3139593

Which view is closest to yours DMcG? Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 06:31 AM

From Wiki:

"Some definitions of Ulster Scots may also include Standard English spoken with an Ulster Scots accent"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 06:40 AM

Also from WIKI,
" The Northern Ireland Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure considers Ulster Scots to be "the local variety of the Scots language."[42] "

"Ulster Scots is defined in an Agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of Ireland establishing implementation bodies done at Dublin on the 8th day of March 1999 in the following terms:
"Ullans" is to be understood as the variety of the Scots language traditionally found in parts of Northern Ireland and Donegal."

"The North/South Co-operation (Implementation Bodies) Northern Ireland Order 1999,[44] which gave effect to the implementation bodies incorporated the text of the agreement in its Schedule 1.
The declaration made by the United Kingdom Government regarding the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages reads as follows:[45]
The United Kingdom declares, in accordance with Article 2, paragraph 1 of the Charter that it recognises that Scots and Ulster Scots meet the Charter's definition of a regional or minority language for the purposes of Part II of the Charter."

"The legislative remit laid down for the agency by the North/South Co-operation (Implementation Bodies) Northern Ireland Order 1999 is: "the promotion of greater awareness and the use of Ullans and of Ulster-Scots cultural issues, both within Northern Ireland and throughout the island".
The agency has adopted a mission statement: to promote the study, conservation, development and use of Ulster Scots as a living language; to encourage and develop the full range of its attendant culture; and to promote an understanding of the history of the Ulster-Scots people."

Irish Times,
"The DUP wants a composite Act that also embraces Ulster Scots, while Sinn F?in is insistent on a stand-alone Irish language Act. "

I am with DUP on this one. Their view is in line with the Good Friday Agreement.
I think Sinn Fein's position is sectarian and divisive.
How about you Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 06:55 AM

Interesting article on the BBC website today concerning the impact of Brexit on French wine growers. It particularly states:

"But their main preoccupation was exchange rates (which of course have already moved sharply to make euro exports to the UK more expensive). The fact there might also be a tariff on French wine had not really sunk in."

It is interesting to read they are fearful of tariffs being imposed when some on here would have us believe it could not possibly happen.

French Wine

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 07:15 AM

Us leaving the EU should have no effect upon these agreements.

That is the point I was making. The operative word is "should". No one really knows.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 07:40 AM

Give it a rest Keith - the first step has to be re-establishing a language that was beaten to death by colonisation
That last people to have a say in it were those who beat it to death in the fiirs place and continue to do so - the ruling Unionist establishment backed by the desperately clinging-on remnants of the Empire (who should have no say whatever)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 07:45 AM

Is it Czech Mate for commie corbyn?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 07:52 AM

Jim,
Irish Times, "The DUP wants a composite Act that also embraces Ulster Scots, while Sinn Fein is insistent on a stand-alone Irish language Act. "

The DUP's position is clearly inclusive while Sinn Fein's would appear sectarian and divisive.
Where do you stand?

Rag, There is no tarif on EU wine now, but there would be after Brexit without a trade agreement.
Wine from outside EU, Australia, Chile Argentina, S.Africa, California etc. is subject to a tarif now.

EU wine would become more expensive, but other wines would not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 07:55 AM

Dave,
Us leaving the EU should have no effect upon these agreements.
That is the point I was making. The operative word is "should". No one really knows.

Membership of the EU HAS no effect on those agreements, so leaving it will make no difference.
Your suggestion is baseless. You have no case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 08:05 AM

Tariffs on Wine.



The Facts

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 08:16 AM

Keith
You do not link your claim, indicating that, as usual it is partial and selective
This is THE D.U.P'S POSITION IN FULL SFA about excluding Ulster Irish
This is what the D.U.P. is about
The letter, a copy of which has been obtained by the BBC, says the party's manifesto makes it "absolutely clear" that the DUP "won't sign up to any deal that diminishes Northern Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 08:22 AM

"Is it Czech Mate for commie corbyn?"

The story has no legs and won't gain any. Your link is to the ravings of a far-right long-time nutter in a far-right "news"paper. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that you associate yourself with such gutter-dwellers. You make excellent bedfellows.

One more thing. Jeremy has never been a "commie." He's a dyed-in-the-wool Labour man and always has been, rebellious bugger though he's been. He even admits to not having read much Marx. Me too! Sorry to pollute your postings with facts. One thing about him that does pee me off: so far he has failed to provided effective opposition to May on Brexit. I live in hope that, when things get really bad in the next few months, he will take the party out of the pro-brexit club and declare against the impending disaster. That's what the majority of Labour voters voted for in the referendum and it's what almost the whole party membership voted for. Get behind us, Jezza!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 08:24 AM

DMcG, the publication was irrelevant because ...

Do you challenge any of that?

Yes, I challenge the claim the publication is irrelevant. Had you said 'The Northwich Guardian reported...', or 'The DUP said ... according this report' I would not have raised the point. But claiming 'The Guardian' said it is misleading. Someone might decide to quote you later and think the national newspaper said "Sinn Fein wants a standalone piece of legislation to protect speakers 'an Irish Language Act' but the DUP has long insisted it would only countenance new laws if they also incorporate other cultures, such as Ulster Scots", which they did not do (or at least, that link does not demonstrate they did).


I challenge it for the same reason I might challenge a claim that Jim said something when it was Steve or even Iains: because it is misleading, whether accidentally or intentionally. This whole topic is complex enough without misleading people.


Which view is closest to yours DMcG?

As I said before, I don't think it is about language at all. It is about peoples' sense of identity, on both sides of the debate. And that means it is for the parties concerned to find a set of phrases or approaches that gives them a way forward. One act, three acts - I don't care. What I care about is them finding a way through, and I am happy with anything they agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 09:34 AM

Membership of the EU has no effect on peoples attitudes but the vote to leave increased the incidence of race hate crimes. Leaving the EU will affect many more things than just European issues.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 10:01 AM

Jim,
This is THE D.U.P'S POSITION IN FULL SFA about excluding Ulster Irish

They are happy for the Act to recognise the Irish language, but ask for parity for their culture.
What is wrong with that?
Sinn Fein are adamant that only their language can be recognised?
Why are they so hostile to the majority culture?
Why are you?

DMcG, the publication was irrelevant because the facts were as stated, and can be found anywhere as I showed. The Irish Times gave the same facts.

And that means it is for the parties concerned to find a set of phrases or approaches that gives them a way forward. One act, three acts - I don't care.

I agree, and so does DUP. They want recognition in the Act or in a separate Act. Sinn Fein refuses to accept that.

Dave,
Leaving the EU will affect many more things than just European issues.

It will not effect policy on refugees or asylum seekers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 10:24 AM

Here's a snippet from an email sent to Labour Party members today. Note the complete lack of any reference to brexit.

The Tories have no plan and are failing Britain - with a housing crisis; underinvestment in our children's education; a failing economy; and an NHS pushed into a state of emergency.

Here's my question for PMQs week...

[box provided for typing my question]

Each Wednesday, Jeremy Corbyn will put questions to Theresa May. Let us know what question you'd like him to ask this week...



Here's an extract from a piece in today's Oberver, outlining the pressure from various sources to make Labour change direction on brexit.

Corbyn under pressure to shift Brexit stance

(Michael Savage. Policy editor)

Jeremy Corbyn has come under intense pressure to shift Labour's position on Brexit after 20,000 members demanded a say over the issue and former leader Neil Kinnock backed halting Britain's EU exit altogether.

It is understood that the Labour leader will also be confronted by some in his shadow cabinet this week who want him to back remaining in the single market and customs union.

Speaking to the Observer, Kinnock said he had been angered by claims from Boris Johnson, the foreign secretary, that the NHS should benefit from the money saved by leaving the European Union. He said the reality was that "we should stop Brexit to save the NHS" or at the very least "mitigate the damage" by staying within the single market.
"Even contempt for 'experts' cannot obscure the evidence that the Johnson-led Brexit vote has already damaged and will inflict future harm on the NHS," Kinnock said. Meanwhile "vitally - Brexit has already diminished, and will continue to depress, the revenues on which the NHS depends.

"If Johnson really wanted the extra NHS spending, which is sorely needed, he wouldn't be using the issue as a ploy to feed his lust for the Tory leadership but would be working to end Brexit.

"The truth is that we can either take the increasingly plain risks and costs of leaving the EU or have the stability, growth and revenues vital for crucial public services like the NHS and social care. Recognising that, we should stop Brexit to save the NHS, or, at very least, mitigate the damage by seeking European Economic Area membership."

Labour is currently backing a "jobs first" Brexit, but what this would mean in practice has remained vague. The party was sharply criticised when it emerged that none of the eight policy commissions it has set up since the elections focuses on Brexit.

The pressure on Labour's leadership comes as a second major donor pledged a six-figure sum to fund a campaign to stop Brexit and warned that he would "not be silenced." Stephen Peel, an Olympic rower and former Tory donor, said he had not been put off by attacks aimed at George Soros, the billionaire financier who faced a backlash from Brexiters after giving 400,000 pounds to a new anti-Brexit campaign.

He told the Observer he was giving 100,000 pounds to Best for Britain, which is organising a grassroots anti-Brexit campaign...

...He added: "We have heard the strident calls from those against us to try and close down debate and silence discussion over the disaster that Brexit appears to be. I for one, will not be silenced and will do all I can to support groups such as Best for Britain who seek to engage people across the country and make the case for Britain to lead, not leave Europe.

"The key task is to empower the people of Britain, provide clear information on Brexit, and encourage them to make their views known to their representatives in parliament."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:57 PM

So to cut to the quick in among the verbiage above. The official labour party position is Brexit full steam ahead. In a nutshell the rowdy members have no control over the direction the party is going.
As I have pointed out before the labour heartlands voted heartily for brexit. This sticks in the craw of the middle class labour party members, whose conceit dictates that they should determine the agenda.
Your party has a problem with the membership, the leader and a huge disconect with the labour heartlands.
   you had better not hope for an early election, you would preside over a massacre.
Meanwhile, about that Czech Mate. No threats of any court action yet?
No legs to it? I suspect more legs than a millipede!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 05:19 PM

No legs. No commie. No court action. Daily Express doing what the Daily Express does. I know you can't see it, poor you. Over two-thirds of Labour voters voted remain. Nine in ten Labour members voted remain. You do heartlands, I do age-related demography, you get predictably nasty. I shrug. You haven't got a clue...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 03:30 AM

I wish had that crystal ball that could tell me with such absolute certainty what leaving the EU will and will not affect.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 03:56 AM

"The official labour party position is Brexit full steam ahead."
Don't be so stupid Iains
The decision to leave has proved to be a crass one and whoever is in charge is placed in a position of making the best of it - all parties are divided as how to mop the mess that is emerging
Your lot had been incompetent enough to lose their majority (a sign of how popular Brexit had become) and is snarling and snapping among themselves about what to do
The main thing to come out of the decision so far is a totally unclear future and a destabilised economy   
Look to your own chaos before you start talking about others
Keith - you've gone into talking clock mode and are just repeating yourself - stop talking about something you know nothing about - about time Little England learned to to stay out of the business of others
Go and Rule Britannia somewhere else
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 04:20 AM

Just seen this

Brectum.

noun.

A person who is a complete arsehole about brexit. Often seen on social media gloating about having 'are country back'.

Fits a few on here.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 04:20 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 05:19 PM
No legs. No commie. No court action. Daily Express doing what the Daily Express does. I know you can't see it, poor you. Over two-thirds of Labour voters voted remain. Nine in ten Labour members voted remain. You do heartlands, I do age-related demography, you get predictably nasty. I shrug. You haven't got a clue...

Amazing that Remain didn't win then, with that turn-out. The overall turnout was only 72%, so the Conservative Party must have been grossly under-represented if 9/10 Labour members voted to remain.

I think you need to clarify what you mean by your figures, as once again you appear to be totally misrepresenting the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 04:33 AM

Don't be so stupid Iains

Ho Ho Ho!
Terrible things facts.

try below from your favourit leftard paper thr guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/27/labour-voters-could-abandon-party-over-brexit-stance-poll-finds

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 04:36 AM

Labour party members and people that vote Labour are two completely different thinks Nigel. I suspect that you know that but given your fixation that everything that Steve says is wrong you will never pass up an opportunity to try to score some sort of point. Have you tried any sort of therapy?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 04:39 AM

Labour Party Membership is about 570,000, thus 90% of them equates to 513,000.

33,500,000 people voted in the referendum.


You can figure the rest out for yourself it's quite simple.


Or should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 04:47 AM

BACK TO THE FAVOURITE MUDRAT INSULT OF REQUIRING THERAPY. nOT VERY INTELLIGENT IS IT?
what sort of nonsense party is it when the voters vote the opposite of the members. Bit of a disconnect there! If you cannot recognise the fact you need help(therapy perhaps?)

Once again I point out the inescapable fact that the labour heartlands voted overwhelmingly for brexit.


Try to prove me wrong with FACTS, not babbling

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 04:57 AM

Dave,
I wish had that crystal ball that could tell me with such absolute certainty what leaving the EU will and will not affect.

There are no such things Dave.
Can you suggest a chain of circumstances that would lead from Brexit to a tightening of regulations on refugees and asylum seekers none of whom originate in EU?

At a push I could produce a link from Remaining to such an outcome, but it would still be fantasy.

You appear to be the only person on Earth suggesting that it is a Brexit issue. That makes me think that this is just another of your vacuous whims with no basis in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 05:11 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 04:36 AM
Labour party members and people that vote Labour are two completely different thinks Nigel. I suspect that you know that but given your fixation that everything that Steve says is wrong you will never pass up an opportunity to try to score some sort of point. Have you tried any sort of therapy?
DtG

I am quite capable of reading what is written. Are you happy with his quoted figures Over two-thirds of Labour voters voted remain. Nine in ten Labour members voted remain

That means Labour 'members' had at least a 90% turnout (higher if any at all voted 'leave'). This compares with only 72.2% nationally.

No source is given for these figures, and I cannot believe that there would be a credible source for them, as the referendum was a 'secret ballot'.
The figures might come from some form of post referendum poll, but we all know the current value of those type of figures. Perhaps the lack of a source is deliberate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 05:14 AM

I see the brectums are out in force again :-)

Keith - I have no intention of jumping through your hoops. You are the last person on earth that I would justify anything to.

Iains - Look to your own insulting and abusive posts before you comment on the mote in anyone else's eye.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 05:22 AM

Keith - I have no intention of jumping through your hoops. You are the last person on earth that I would justify anything to.

You could not justify that whim to anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:13 AM

Deary Me! I do not need therapy to understand this. Some others obviously do.
My conclusion is that labour fudged the brexit issue to gain seats. Now they have to live with it or there will be consequences.

Awkward facts! Doncha jus luv 'em!


https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/labour-faces-need-reconcile-working-class-brexit-supporters

Do I detect the odour of toast over the horizon?
The aspirations of the rank and file seem to differ from the membership.
I know what comprises the bigger number!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:15 AM

Which bit of not jumping through your hoops do you not understand, Keith? I have no intention of justifying anything whatsoever to you. You have no intention of changing your tedious habits. Best option all round is for you to ignore me.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:17 AM

I do find it quite amusing that the Brexiteers would rather talk about almost anything but Brexit. Still I suppose after waiting for 21 months to hear any good news about it they're getting despondent.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:24 AM

Raggytash nothing of significance is occurring, just a lot of posturing
and hot air.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:39 AM

So Boris and May's speeches are just posturing and hot air? They contain nothing worth talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:43 AM

I do find it quite amusing that the Brexiteers would rather talk about almost anything but Brexit. Still I suppose after waiting for 21 months to hear any good news about it they're getting despondent.

We've already heard the 'good news'. Brexit will happen.
It is only those who voted remain who keep carping on about "Why can't you give us good news?".
The 'good news' will come once we're out (although it may take time). We couldn't convince you before the referendum that Brexit in and of itself was a good thing. Why should we expect to (or be expected to) convince you now?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:43 AM

Heard any good news about Brexit yet then Iains, that is apart from the Mantra about regaining control.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 07:28 AM

Brectum.

noun.

A person who is a complete arsehole about brexit. Often seen on social media gloating about having 'are country back'.

Or maybe those that say it is good just because it will happen?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 07:31 AM

Raggy is asking for much less than being convinced. That would require quite a lot of good news, I imagine. *Any* good news is a much lower hurdle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 07:42 AM

Exactly DMcG, I have yet to hear any good news at all.

I have read and heard a great deal of negative comment but, to date, not one single item of good news.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 07:46 AM

Same here. And I have looked because I would really like to hear something positive.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 11:07 AM

Dave,
Which bit of not jumping through your hoops do you not understand, Keith? I have no intention of justifying anything whatsoever to you.

Yes. You said.
My point was that you could not justify such a vacuous whim to anyone. It was bollocks Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 11:24 AM

"Brexit will happen."
Somewhat mindless, in the circumstances - a destabiised economy, a sharp rise in rasism, a divided country, a divided and unstable Government a distinct possibility of the break-up of the United Kingdom and a prediction from the experts that British business will take over a decade to recover, if she ever does - and above all NOT EVEN A LIABILITY STUDY TO DEAL WITH ANY OF THIS, LET ALONE A PLAN!
All this is based on serious predictions by the RELEVANT EXPERTS
Somewhat smug to chant "we won" every time the subject comes up
What exactly have you won Nigel - apart from the probability of a Government led by Boris Johnson or William Rees Mogg?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 11:48 AM

Jim, your link to the 'Relevant Experts' tells us:
The International Monetary Fund has strongly defended its gloomy forecasts for the UK after Brexit, saying pre-referendum warnings of slower growth were coming true.

Christine Lagarde, the fund's managing director, said the vote to leave the EU in June 2016 was already having an impact and Britain's weaker growth this year was in contrast to accelerating activity in the rest of the world.

Speaking at the Treasury as the IMF announced the results of its annual health check of the UK economy, Lagarde hit back at those who lambasted the fund when predictions of an immediate post-referendum recession failed to come to pass.

"We feared that if Britain decided to leave, it would most likely entail a depreciation of sterling, higher inflation leading to a squeeze on disposable income and a reduction in investment," she said.

Basically "We were wrong before when we predicted calamity, but you'd better believe us now because we believe we're right".

Chicken Little comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 11:51 AM

Talking bollocks is fine. A harmless activity enjoyed by many in pubs up and down the country every day. A far cry from the insidious right wing drivel spouted by you Keith. As I said before, your best idea, if you believe it is bollocks, is to ignore it. You will not do that however because you know it is not bollocks and it makes you feel insecure to realise that not everyone is fooled by the shysters and con men that you kowtow to. It is becoming increasingly obvious that you are incapable of understanding the concept that people on here are on to you and will not play your stupid little games any longer. I will now put it as simply as I can. Fuck off.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:35 PM

A far cry from the insidious right wing drivel spouted by you Keith.

A vacuous accusation with no basis in reality.
I am not right wing and have never spouted any such drivel.

Confident prediction- you will not produce any.

Personal attack you can do.
Justifying your vacuous whims you can not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:41 PM

Hoops, hoops and more hoops.

Any postive news from Brexit.

I'll not hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:42 PM

Happy to clarify, Nigel, as if I should need to. While I don't have the precise numbers, it's a pretty good bet that most people who voted Labour in the election also voted in the referendum. That supposition is strengthened by the fact that the turnout in the referendum was higher than in the election. Of course, there will have been a minority who voted in one but not the other. Ho hum. A minority. So, according to polls, a pretty sizeable majority of people who voted Labour in the election voted remain the year before. It's what pollsters ask people, Nigel. If you have a problem with that I'd suggest that you are being downright unreasonable. As for Labour Party members, I'd suggest (again, I haven't got the numbers, but do read on) that almost all the people committed enough to join the party, the vast bulk being pretty new members, not long-time sleepers, would have voted in the referendum. Polls taken since have suggested that 88-90% voted remain. Keep carping about this if you must, but I think I'll move on. Your only contribution to this discussion appears to be that you think brexit is "good news," though, naturally, you can't really expand on that, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:43 PM

I cannot put it more it any more simply than I did last time, Keith. Maybe you need to get someone to explain it to you. I am sure some of your 'friends' on here will help.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:52 PM

Oh yes, sorry Raggy. Keith can claim a victory there. Should make him happy, though I doubt it somehow. He managed to divert attention from the fact that there seems to be no good news being reported, even by the brectums at the Daily Heil.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 01:00 PM

IMF predictions of an immediate post-referendum recession failed to come to pass.

I know I will be accused of revisionism, and it is too late to get this straightened out, but believe or not the IMF did not make predictions of an immediate post-referendum recession. Bear with me! There WERE such predictions, but they were entirely the Remain campaigners abusing what the IMF actually said, which, if you read it, is stuffed to the gunnels with 'may's, and 'uncertainty' and 'a risk of' and every other indication that these were guidance figures, not some oracle saying what must inevitably come to pass. Which, naturally, is exactly the misleading way that the remain campaign decided to use it. I do not excuse the Remain camp for that. It is understandable because caveats are frowned on in campaigns, so a clear message is preferred even when is it a distortion, but it is still a stupid way of proceeding.

Why that matters is that the 'Chicken Little' analogy is not really applicable. It was heavily caveated last time (with the assumptions made and uncertainties listed), and the latest version is also caveated.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 01:40 PM

I did point that out before, DMcG. IIRC it was initially a claim made by Osbourne and then supported by his successor, Hammond. All nonsense of course and a perfect example of politicians manipulating genuine research for their own nefarious purposes. They were found out in this lie but people are still clinging to their nonsensical statements to massage the truth themselves.

What I do not understand is how some on here think they can continue doing it to deflect attention from the genuine concerns of the millions who think that leaving the EU is not a good idea. Even their chief brectum, BoJo, has recognised those concerns, leaving only Gove waving the experts know nothing flag.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 01:49 PM

The loony left cannot believe the official stance of the labour party is to support brexit. Thus far this is unchanged. There are a half dozen posters here seem reluctant to accept that self evident truth.
The conservatives follow the lead of St Thatcher of Stanley.
"The lady's not for turning. Clear,concise, unequivocal."

But Corbyn of the allotment is veering back and forth like headless chicken knowing full well that if he betrays the grass roots voters, then his ass will be grass. What a clown!

The news that just keeps on giving.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5408199/Corbyn-meets-team-hammer-Brexit-position.html
I see the no legged millipede of Corbyns alleged communist trangressions has picked up more legs
whoops

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 01:53 PM

So still no reports of anything positive being reported then, Iains? Surely there must be some?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 02:01 PM

Yes. My link confirms the official labour position is to support brexit. It is heartening to know both the major UK political parties support our departure from the EU.
Stunning news doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 02:08 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:42 PM
So, according to polls, a pretty sizeable majority of people who voted Labour in the election voted remain the year before. It's what pollsters ask people, Nigel. If you have a problem with that I'd suggest that you are being downright unreasonable.

Not unreasonable. How often recently have polls failed to predict the correct outcome.
It may be that polls have some inbuilt fallibility, or just that people give pollsters the answer they think the pollsters want, but then go on to vote in line with their true beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 02:12 PM

Shaw. "As for Labour Party members, I'd suggest (again, I haven't got the numbers, but do read on) that almost all the people committed enough to join the party, the vast bulk being pretty new members, not long-time sleepers, would have voted in the referendum. Polls taken since have suggested that 88-90% voted remain"

Well I have already presented the graphs for both brexit and the General election. It is all in glorious techicolour in a presentation even the Dandy and Beano readership could understand.
However
" So,(shaw) according to polls, a pretty sizeable majority of people who voted Labour in the election voted remain the year before. It's what pollsters ask people," It may be what the pollsters ask but it is not backed up by my pretty pictures.

Also the labour membership argument has already been kicked into touch. They comprise 1/2 million people on a sunny day. Not enough to swing a vote in a major city, let alone a country.
You talk piffle laddie, absolute piffle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 02:45 PM

Also the labour membership argument has already been kicked into touch. They comprise 1/2 million people on a sunny day. Not enough to swing a vote in a major city, let alone a country.

Well, if an election does occur within the next year, it is worth remembering Amber Rudd has a majority of 346 and my Conservative MP a majority of 31. So here it only needs a fistful to vote differently. Impact is more about distribution than total.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 05:05 PM

DMcG.Should an election occur before brexit there would be a need for all the manifestos to be considerably more honest in precisely what they are offering. I know no remainer likes to discuss it but labour has a major split between the membership and the rank and file, especially in the old industrial heartlands. There is no point in the miniscule membership insisting that labour supports remain when deprived areas voted to leave.
Personally I expect this division, coupled with the invidious advance of momentum, to totally destroy the labour party.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O-wWZBqGaY

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 05:21 PM

Iains, why do you suggest that the remain movement is primarily a Labour party thing when it is this very split that is driving the Tory party apart? The brectums on the right are in a minority themselves yet are calling all the shots. A case of the tail wagging the dog if ever there was one.

And you still have not found anything positive have you?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:31 PM

Nigel, the polls, or surveys if you like, that are being discussed here apropos of Labour voters and Party members were not predictors. They were surveys of done deeds. I do hope you can see the difference. Now Iains, I'm a patient man. The fact that half a million Labour Party MEMBERS probably voted remain is not connected to the separate point that thirty-odd million people actually decided the result. I'm merely making the point that the official Labour position (which I lament but about which I am not in denial) is at odds with the sentiments of the majority of Labour voters in the country as a whole, insofar as it's reflected by the way they voted in the referendum, and is very much at odds with the sentiments of Labour Party members, also insofar as they voted in the referendum. That's all. Now, Nigel and Iains, please read that again slowly and carefully before you type even more daft stuff, there's a good pair of lads.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:56 PM

"There is no point in the miniscule [sic] membership insisting that labour supports remain when deprived areas voted to leave.
Personally I expect this division, coupled with the invidious advance of momentum, to totally destroy the labour party."

Well the membership isn't exactly minuscule. We don't "insist" that Labour supports remain, but a good number of us are trying to make the argument. "Deprived areas" is a broad brush. Certainly you can always find pockets of leave if you circumscribe chosen areas very precisely and tendentiously, but you simply can't argue with the fact that a sizeable majority of Labour voters, taking the country as a whole (which is precisely how the referendum result was measured), voted remain in the referendum. That's all. I don't care at all if you want to atomise the referendum result by area, but I remember how nasty you got when I suggested differentiating the result by age distribution. Funny, that. Your wish for the destruction of the party has oft been revisited by Tories down the decades. What I suggest you do is look carefully at the horrid rifts in your own party, which seem far more likely (though still not very likely) to cause it to self-destruct. I still feel that Labour is keeping its powder dry for now. Even I can live in hope.

By the way, the word you were looking for was "insidious."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 18 - 03:33 AM

Steve Shaw: I'm merely making the point that the official Labour position (which I lament but about which I am not in denial) is at odds with the sentiments of the majority of Labour voters in the country as a whole, insofar as it's reflected by the way they voted in the referendum
From that I read that you believe that the majority of labour voters favour remaining in the EU.

Dave the Gnome The brectums on the right are in a minority themselves yet are calling all the shots
This suggests that you believe the majority on the right favour remain.

If you are both correct it seems amazing that the country was able to vote to leave the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 18 - 03:51 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 02:45 PM

Well, if an election does occur within the next year, it is worth remembering Amber Rudd has a majority of 346 and my Conservative MP a majority of 31. So here it only needs a fistful to vote differently. Impact is more about distribution than total.

It is also worth remembering that there is a bias in the number of seats each of the two major parties would win with the same voting majority (equally spread). It is surely time for boundary changes which would give us constituencies of roughly equal size (by voter numbers). This would also allow the Conservatives to make good on plans to reduce the total number of constituencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 18 - 04:06 AM

This suggests that you believe the majority on the right favour remain.

They do!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 18 - 04:32 AM

Iains: Personally I expect this division, coupled with the invidious advance of momentum, to totally destroy the labour party.

Steve Shaw: By the way, the word you were looking for was "insidious."

I think Iains probably used the word he intended:
invidious: (of an action or situation) likely to arouse or incur resentment or anger in others.
Insidious: proceeding in a gradual, subtle way, but with very harmful effects.

It may be that Schoolmaster Shaw knows what Iains' intended meaning was better than Iains himself, but I very much doubt it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 03:50 AM

How do you know what he "probably" meant, and how will you ever know? As for me, I'm going from the context provided by his sentence. Insidious implies stealthily, gradually, sneakily, infiltratingly, underhandedly, reds under the bed.... that's what Mail-Tories like you and Iains generally neurotically invoke when we're talking about commies/Militant/Momentum, etc. So give over, Nigel. Insidious fits a hundred times better and you know it. He seemingly doesn't. Isn't this fun?

I bet Davis wishes he'd never said Mad Max... Anyone for a chicken that smells of bleach?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 03:56 AM

"We were wrong before when we predicted calamity, but you'd better believe us now because we believe we're right"
You miss the point Nigel, as did those Brexiteers who said on the day after the election result "look - the world hasn't come to an end"
Brexit has destabilised the economy, so whatever the situation may be at a given point, it is no longer under the control of those running the country, nor will it be for the next decade at least - that is the overwhelming prediction of all the the economic institutions.
No country, especially one that no longer has an industrial base, can possibly survive without bleeding its people dry though price rises, taxation and swingeing cuts - (already happening - look at the hospitals)
The claim was that Brexit would allow "Britain to stand on her own two feet" - a pretty useless gesture if she has no industrial legs to support her.
You choose to ignore the other points in my posting - why wouldn't you - they are undeniable facts?
Brexit was sold on a racist ticket - "it is all the faulty of those foreigners"
Now, it appears, even that promise can't be followed through and Britain will continue to have to take Europeans (at least) to continue benefiting from the E.U.
THe scapegoating racist card was the most unforgivable action on the part of the Brexiteers - it has opened up the floodgates to the extremist scum all over the Western World and beyond - a real "first" for Britain
I watched an extremely moving programme on THIS MAN last week
He was filmed in several European countries, showing how extremist racist fascism is now rampant once again - "a return to the old days" - in the words of this Holocaust survivor
Well done Brexiteers, you must be proud of yourselves
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:10 AM

Steve Shaw: By the way, the word you were looking for was "insidious."

Nigel: I think Iains probably used the word he intended:

Steve: How do you know what he "probably" meant, and how will you ever know?

At least I included the comment that I think he probably meant to use the word he actually used. This was certainly less strident than your assertion that he used the wrong word.

As for 'how will you ever know?', I would imagine that we'll get clarification from Iains at some point. But even if he confirms that he always intended to use 'invidious' I doubt that that will be enough to convince you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:43 AM

He fiddles with semantics while (the treaty of) Rome burns.

Still no positive news then? Don't give us that "it will be fine when it happens" guff. There are plenty of provable negatives right now but as yet, nothing good.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:57 AM

Labour lost a member yesterday. One Goldstein, expelled for anti-Semitism.

Rag,
Any postive news from Brexit.

It has not happened.
The benefits will come after it is achieved, and not even immediately after.

We are currently in a transitional period where uncertainty about the final deal inevitably makes people cautious.

The debate about Brexit is over.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:13 AM

Lindsey German,
"Chukka Umunna, Heidi Alexander, Alastair Campbell, are all leading the charge to reverse the democratic decision made in June 2016 and keep Britain in the EU. They are doing much better than they should be, ably assisted by the Guardian which dutifully reports 17,000 emails calling for Corbyn to effectively change his position on the single market and customs union. Out of a membership of 600,000 this isn’t exactly decisive, especially since email lobbying tools are fairly common."

"The other is to look at the reality which is the EU. It is not the antithesis of Brexit Britain, but an institution which is driving and reinforcing many of the problems across Europe, from the refugee crisis to worsening work conditions, to a growing militarism. While it is continuing to penalise Greece, it turns a blind eye to far-right politics in Poland and Hungary, and looks like endorsing the return of Silvio Berlusconi in next month’s Italian election.
It is exactly the politics put forward by Corbyn which can provide an alternative to the neoliberalism which dominates Europe. The EU leaders are united in opposing these politics and in doing everything they can to prevent them from succeeding."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:15 AM

Momentum = invidious = synonyms: unfair, unjust, discriminatory, iniquitous, weighted, one-sided; offensive, objectionable;deleterious, detrimental, unwarranted and so much more.
Simply delightful little fellows doncha think?

If twerp Shaw wishes to add insidious??? = proceeding in a gradual, subtle way, but with very harmful effects.Who am I to argue?
synonyms: stealthy, subtle, surreptitious, sneaking, cunning, crafty, Machiavellian, artful, guileful, sly, wily, tricky, slick, deceitful, deceptive, dishonest, underhand, backhanded, indirect; informalsneaky

Seems the laddie has an even more pisspoor opinion of momentum than myself.
Who would ever have believed that?

Are we talking semantics or petards here?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:36 AM

"Labour lost a member yesterday. One Goldstein, expelled for anti-Semitism."
Justy shows the farce of using ANTISEMITISM to defend State terror
The name is Greenstein, by the way Keith
Expelling Jewish opponents of the Israeli regime would be beyond a joke if this were true
Greenstein WAS NOT EXPELLED FOR ANTISEMITISM - THIS IS A TOTAL WITCH-HUNTING DISTORTION - HE WAS EXPELLED FOR CONTRAVENING THE LABOUR PARTY'S RULE 2.1.8 - ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR
Stop making things up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:44 AM

The benefits will come after it is achieved

Why are there no serious research results backing up this prediction then? No one has come up with any yet anyway. All the economic research done indicates that we will be worse off.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:51 AM

Well done Brexiteers, you must be proud of yourselves

It is not all things "bright and beautiful in the EU."
Uncontrolled immigration and populist sentiment is causing major problems and hardening of attitudes in Europe. The facade of false unity is gently cracking.


https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-europe-populist-right/

The march to Federalism and central control is finding a few pot holes along the road. Going to be some twisted ankles and broken legs if the holes get any deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:17 AM

Jim,
WAS NOT EXPELLED FOR ANTISEMITISM - THIS IS A TOTAL WITCH-HUNTING DISTORTION - HE WAS EXPELLED FOR CONTRAVENING THE LABOUR PARTY'S RULE 2.1.8 - ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR

Abusive to who Jim?
Mr Greenstein was accused of three breaches of Labour's rules.
These were; that he said Zionists had collaborated with the Nazis; that he described Zionism as "a Jewish version of anti-semitism"; that he had described the IRA's decision to target Margaret Thatcher as "obviously legitimate."

Dave,
Why are there no serious research results backing up this prediction then?

There has been no serious research on the consequences of the Brexit deal, because the deal has yet to be made.
There was serious research into the consequences of Britain joining EMU and the Eurozone, and they all proved wrong.

The Brexit debate has happened. Brexit will happen. No-one knows the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:29 AM

So, no one but the brectums believe there will be any benefits then. There has been no research into the consequences yet you still voted for it. Blind faith has a lot to answer for.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:37 AM

"Abusive to who Jim?"
To the right-wing Zionists who are now busy carrying out ethnic cleansing in Israel - "antisemitism" is denigrating the Jewish People
Whatever his faults, he can in no way be accused of doing that
It is not all things "bright and beautiful in the EU."
Nobody suggested it was Iains - on the contrary - the programme I referred to concentrated on what was happening in Europe
Brexit opened the doors to the rise of fascism by proving that a racist ticket was a sure-fire way of gaining support for divisive scapegoating policies.
Before the result, Austria gave the extreme right the boot - bow the fascists are gaining support everywhere
Pointing to Europe only underlines my point
Lat's be clear about the E.U. - all it is is a co-operative body of Capitalist States - nothing more
The only reason it has my support is that it is a stopgap measure to prevent a failing system from falling apart in such a manner as to make life even more unbearable for the various populations than they are already
For me, what happened in Greece is proof positive that it is in no way a panacea for all long-term ills.
There is also the added factor that member states are less likely to go to war with each other than are individual ones.
Short termism will have to do until a fair system comes along
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:44 AM

"There has been no serious research on the consequences of the Brexit deal, because the deal has yet to be made."

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

Right Lads, we're going to take this road, we don't know where it leads to, could be oblivion and complete hell, we don't really know, but we do want to take everyone else with us.

No we don't know if the Economy will suffer, no we don't know what will happen to unemployment figures, no we don't know what will happen to human rights, or the justice system, we don't know where we will buy goods, we don't even know who we will buy them from, we don't know who we will sell to or trade with but we believe this is the best path to take ......... what? evidence? Oh no we have no evidence to support this, no, no evidence at all but we know it is the best path.

Utterly, utterly naive.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:46 AM

By the way Keith - the Zionists did co-operate with the Nazis via the Haavara Agreement
The only question is whether they should have done
A JEWISH VIEW CAN BE FOUND HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:47 AM

So, no one but the brectums believe there will be any benefits then. There has been no research into the consequences yet you still voted for it. Blind faith has a lot to answer for.

In contrast, you, (I assume) voted to remain in the EU. Was this also in 'blind faith'? Or can you tell us of the 'research into the consequences' (of remaining) that you based your vote on?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:49 AM

Oh I forgot to mention the 58 impact assessments that were commissioned by David Davis or the impact assessments that were commissioned into the economy by Philip Hammond!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:59 AM

The remoaners think the EU is a fossil organisation with no possibility of change, either by agenda or external influences.
Anyone with a half brain cell recognises the absurdity of such a position.
Such naivety would be quite touching if it were not so dangerous.
This is the reason enfranchisement is restricted to adults. Sadly some adults can also be a naif.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 08:12 AM

Everyone happy with the UK stance on the transition set out in Parliament today and leaked yesterday?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 08:46 AM

In the post Brexit Nirvana that some would have us believe in we can look forward to this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 08:48 AM

Would help if I attached the link!!


Meat from the USA

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 08:56 AM

That looks to be a dead link (404)
Dead meat possibly?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 09:10 AM

For some reason the article will not link. It can be found in todays Guardian and makes very poor reading.

One of the joys we can look forward to, post Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 09:39 AM

Or can you tell us of the 'research into the consequences' (of remaining) that you based your vote on?

Funnily enough, Nigel, yes I can. Firstly, even without predictions, we can take it as a fact that we would have remained part of the largest mutual trading organisation in the word. My children and grandchildren would have remained free to live and work anywhere in Europe. The NHS and businesses would not have to worry about staff levels. And lots more facts before we even move on to, secondly, the predictions. As we know, they are all bleak. You cannot come up with a single piece of good news yet you still voted to leave in the vague hope that it will all turn out for the best. In the light of such 'reasoning' it is apparent that any further discussion is futile.

Here is another prediction though. You will continue nitpicking. Iains will be abusive and Keith will remain being, well, just Keith. None of you will come up with any research giving good news to allay the fears of those that wish to remain.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 09:50 AM

Here is the article from the Guardian in full, it is well worth taking the time to read it.


Shocking hygiene failings have been discovered in some of the US’s biggest meat plants, as a new analysis reveals that as many as 15% (one in seven) of the US population suffers from foodborne illnesses annually.

A joint investigation by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism (TBIJ) and the Guardian found that hygiene incidents are at numbers that experts described as “deeply worrying”.

US campaigners are calling once again for the closure of a legal loophole that allows meat with salmonella to be sold in the human supply chain, and also warn about the industry’s push to speed up production in the country’s meat plants. And UK campaigners warn that the UK could be flooded with “dirty meat” if a US trade deal is signed post-Brexit.


Animals farmed: welcome to our series
Read more
The unpublished US- government records highlight numerous specific incidents including:

Diseased poultry meat that had been condemned found in containers used to hold edible food products;
Pig carcasses piling up on the factory floor after an equipment breakdown, leading to contamination with grease, blood and other filth;
Meat destined for the human food chain found riddled with faecal matter and abscesses filled with pus;
High-power hoses being used to clean dirty floors next to working production lines containing food products;
Factory floors flooded with dirty water after drains became blocked by meat parts and other debris;
Dirty chicken, soiled with faeces or having been dropped on the floor, being put back on to the production line after being rinsed with dilute chlorine.
All of the reported breaches resulted in immediate remedial action with no risk posed to consumers, according to the companies involved.

But campaigners warned that other violations may go undetected. Tony Corbo, senior lobbyist with Food and Water Watch, said: “While the inspectors are able to cite the plants for hundreds of violations per week, I am confident that they are not catching every instance of unsafe practices being committed in these plants.”

Meat hygiene inspectors interviewed by the Guardian agreed, saying fast line speeds and other pressures in some plants meant it was “inevitable” that some breaches slipped through the net.

The findings are worrying, according to Prof Erik Millstone, a food safety expert at Sussex University, “because of the risks of spreading infectious pathogens from carcass to carcass, and between portions of meat. The rates at which outbreaks of infectious food poisoning occur in the US are significantly higher than in the UK, or the EU, and poor hygiene in the meat supply chain is [a] leading cause of food poisoning in the US.”

Black bacterial colonies of salmonella. Food poisoning outbreaks are much higher than in the UK.
Facebook Twitter Pinterest Black bacterial colonies of salmonella. Food poisoning outbreaks are much higher than in the UK. Photograph: Chansom Pantip/Getty Images/iStockphoto
The Bureau and the Guardian obtained previously unpublished documents relating to 47 meat plants across the US. Some of the documents relate to certain companies, including Pilgrim’s Pride, one of the US’s biggest poultry producers, and Swift Pork. Although not a comprehensive portrait of the sector - there are around 6,000 US plants regularly inspected by Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS) - the documents provide a snapshot of issues rarely detailed in public which has rung alarm bells with campaigners in both the US and UK.

“The US meat industry has a responsibility to clean up its act,” said David Wallinga, senior health officer at the Natural Resources Defence Council, which obtained some of the documents. He said the Pilgrim’s Pride records detailed “numerous food safety violations.”

Kerry McCarthy, former UK shadow environment minister and Labour MP, called for urgent reassurances from both the UK Food Standards Agency (FSA) and “the top of government” that standards would not be allowed to slip as trade negotiations with the US get underway.

“We cannot allow this to be a race to the bottom. We should insist the US raises its standards, and guarantees food safety, before we are prepared to allow in US meat imports,” she said. McCarthy has written to the environment secretary, Michael Gove, and Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to raise the matter.

The documents seen by the Bureau and Guardian do not reveal the full numbers of non-compliance reports across the whole sector. However, one dataset covering 13 large red meat and poultry plants over two years (2015-17) shows an average of more than 150 violations a week, and 15,000 violations over the entire period. Thousands of similar violations were recorded at 10 pork-producing plants over a five-year period up until 2016, further documents show.


Share your stories from inside the farming industry
Read more
Another batch of previously unpublished documents shows frequent failings at 24 plants operated by Pilgrim’s Pride who recently bought the British chicken giant Moy Park. The company slaughters 34 million birds each week and produces one in five of the chickens in the country.

More than 16,000 non-compliance reports on Pilgrim’s Pride operations detail 36,612 individual regulatory violations - an average of 1,464 a month - at the 24 plants during a 25-month period between 2014 and 2016.

Pilgrim’s Pride chickens on display at a supermarket.
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Pilgrim’s Pride chickens on display at a supermarket. Photograph: Kristoffer Tripplaar / Alamy/Alamy
In one incident, diseased meat – condemned from entering the human food chain – was placed in a container meant for edible product. An inspector discovered “carcasses of poultry showing evidence of septicemic disease ... carcasses showing evidence of having died from other causes than slaughter ... guts of carcasses, [and] poultry carcasses with heads attached.” He requested that the condemned items be removed. A similar incident was recorded some days later.

One inspector saw chicken drumsticks piling up on the floor, and instructed workers to pick them up “to be reconditioned with chlorinated water.” Again, a similar incident had occurred previously. In another incident in a bagging department, 36 shrink-wrapped whole birds were found scattered on the floor. An inspector noted: “in my presence the establishments began initiating their corrective action by picking up all affected product off the floor ... to be carried to the establishment’s designated wash station to be thoroughly rinsed off.”

Red tape in the meat industry? It's the difference between life and death
Kath Dalmeny
Read more
Meat soiled with faecal matter was also recorded, with an inspector noting “... I observed a poultry intestine in the liver bin. The intestine was approximately 6.5 inches long and had visible faeces oozing out both ends.” The incident resulted in the livers being condemned from the human food chain.

At another Pilgrim’s Pride plant, the records reveal how deficient equipment led to a carcass becoming contaminated with faeces. “I observed one of my 10 test birds with a spot of faecal matter on the exterior of the right thigh. The spot of faecal [sic] was … brownish green in colour and had a pasty consistency,” an inspector notes. The affected bird was “retained by management for review then sent to reprocessing for reconditioning with chlorinated water.” Similar carcass contamination had been recorded before.

Internal FSIS records also highlight numerous violations at meat plants producing pork. In an incident recorded at a plant run by Swift Pork, owned by meat giant JBS, 48 pig carcasses were found to have fallen on the floor because of defective equipment, leading to contamination with “black trolley grease, floor grime and bloody smears”. The records noted: “The line was stopped for about 15 minutes. The carcasses were sent to be trimmed first then steam vacuumed with 180F water.”

On another occasion, an employee cleaned the factory floor with meat products on an adjacent conveyor belt, creating a mist that could contaminate the meat. “This mist is contaminated by the inedible debris and ... comes into contact with edible product,” an inspector observed.

Pigs are seen in a factory farm December 2003 in northern Missouri.
Facebook Twitter Pinterest Pigs are seen in a factory farm December 2003 in northern Missouri. Photograph: Daniel Pepper/Getty Images
In a separate incident, a pig’s head was found to have partially covered a drain, leading to “bloody waste water filling the area”. This and another blockage caused by a buildup of skin led to dirty water flooding other areas. “Because of the plugged drains, an insanitary condition was created; the bloody water in the walkway could be splashed and carried throughout the kill floor after employees walked through the puddle,” an inspector wrote.

In a different part of the factory, inspectors found a stainless steel handwash sink “plugged and approximately one-quarter full of standing bloody water with pieces of fat and meat. Production employees use this sink to clean and sanitise their hands and gloves. This creates an insanitary condition.”

In a statement, JBS, which owns Pilgrim’s and Swift Pork, said all of the violations recorded were “immediately addressed” and that consumers were never put at risk. “The US meat and poultry sector is one of the most highly regulated industries in America,” said Al Almanza, JBS’s global head of food safety and quality assurance, and former head of FSIS for 39 years. “Non-compliance reports are issued by USDA [United States Department of Agriculture] inspection personnel to document when an establishment has not met a specific regulatory requirement. However, the vast majority of non-compliance issues are addressed immediately and have no impact on food safety.”

“All of the documented incidents regarding JBS [Swift Pork] and Pilgrim’s were immediately addressed by our facilities. None of these incidents put anyone at risk or resulted in any adulterated product released into commerce. Food safety is achieved by implementing processes that consistently detect and correct issues before products are released into commerce. Our team at JBS and Pilgrim’s is committed to the highest food safety standards and we partner with USDA each and every day to ensure that consumers can enjoy safe and quality products with confidence.”

Salmonella and other foodborne illnesses
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The US has shockingly high levels of foodborne illness, according to a new analysis by UK pressure group Sustain. It says that annually, around 14.7% (48 million people) of the US population is estimated to suffer from an illness, compared to around 1.5% (1 million) in the UK. In the US, 128,000 are hospitalised, and 3,000 die each year of foodborne diseases.

One bug, salmonella, causes around 1m illnesses per year in the US, while in the UK the numbers of officially recorded incidents is relatively low, with just under 10,000 laboratory confirmed cases in 2016. However, unreported incidents could substantially increase those numbers. Salmonella takes hold on farms and is found in the guts of poultry and livestock: farm animals and birds can become contaminated with faeces containing the bacteria during transport to abattoirs, where slaughter and processing procedures can also spread it.

Kath Dalmeny, chief executive of Sustain, said the figures underscored concerns about future US-UK trade deals: “The US has already warned us that we will need to lower our food standards in exchange for a quick trade deal, but we need to fight this hard. They are desperate to sell us their chlorine-washed chicken, but we know chlorine and other unpalatable treatments can mask dirty meat, low hygiene standards and poor animal welfare, which the UK consumer will not stand for.

“In recent years, the UK meat, dairy and egg industries have improved food safety; so we should all be alarmed about any trade deal that opens up our market to products that undermine this progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 10:30 AM

carrying out ethnic cleansing in Israel

The rate of growth of the Arab population of Israel - 3.4% on average per year - is one of the highest in the world, and is even higher than in neighboring Arab countries (for example, 2.8% in Syria and in Jordan and 2.1% in Egypt). In the Palestinian Authority, the rate of growth is even higher - 4.3% per year.

The life expectancy of Israeli Arabs is higher than in any Arab or Muslim country.

The question is what drives people to promulgate such invidious lies - I think the answer is plainly obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 11:21 AM

Take it elsewhere Bobad
Keith raised the false story - it's been dealt with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 11:25 AM

Keith raised the false story - it's been dealt with

No, Keith did not raise the lie of ethnic cleansing - that was you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 11:52 AM

Dave,
There has been no research into the consequences yet you still voted for it.

Not just me. Millions of us read all the dire predictions and decided it was still worth having.
The majority in fact.

Jim,
Brexit opened the doors to the rise of fascism

Read what the real hard Left activists like Lindsay German say about it.

"The other is to look at the reality which is the EU. It is not the antithesis of Brexit Britain, but an institution which is driving and reinforcing many of the problems across Europe, from the refugee crisis to worsening work conditions, to a growing militarism. While it is continuing to penalise Greece, it turns a blind eye to far-right politics in Poland and Hungary, and looks like endorsing the return of Silvio Berlusconi in next month?s Italian election.
It is exactly the politics put forward by Corbyn which can provide an alternative to the neoliberalism which dominates Europe. The EU leaders are united in opposing these politics and in doing everything they can to prevent them from succeeding."

Jim,
Daily mirror headline,
Labour party activist 'with history of noxious behaviour' expelled for using offensive anti-Semitic term "zio"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:00 PM

Or can you tell us of the 'research into the consequences' (of remaining) that you based your vote on?

Funnily enough, Nigel, yes I can. Firstly, even without predictions, we can take it as a fact that we would have remained part of the largest mutual trading organisation in the word. My children and grandchildren would have remained free to live and work anywhere in Europe. The NHS and businesses would not have to worry about staff levels. And lots more facts

Nope. You're telling me what beliefs you based your vote on. Claiming them as facts is not providing "research into the consequences" which is what remain voters here are asking the leavers to provide.

How long has staffing been a problem with the NHS?
If we had not voted leave, would the NHS now not be worrying about staffing levels? I somehow doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:03 PM

"expelled for using offensive anti-Semitic term "zio""
Don't see any reference to the Jewish people there Keith
"No, Keith did not raise the lie of ethnic cleansing - that was you."
Keith brought antisemitism into it - he lied
Enough - take it to the other thread as requested
It should never have been here in the first place - antisemitism or the imagined crimes of the About party have SFA to do with Brexit - unless, of course, you wish to join me in pointing out that the racism on the rise of racism in Europe today is a direct result of the incitement to race hatred to push through Brexit
I'm sure neither of you do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:10 PM

Raggytash.
Ok. America has problems.

I'm sure you remember fairly recent cases of UK supermarket suppliers re-labelling food which was past its sell by dates and reintroducing it into stock.

Also the scandal of beef sourced from elsewhere in the EU which included a proportion of horse meat.

I'm not claiming the Americans are blameless, but if you look closer to home you'll find problems as well.

The problem of one country being able to easily offload dodgy goods onto another country is made easier by a 'common market'. Even so I didn't object to us joining a 'common market', but I never wanted that to be the means of moving toward a super-state.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:12 PM

" It can be found in todays Guardian and makes very poor reading."

If it is poor reading there is little point in bothering - We will take your word for it.

This article below however is worth reading. Corbyn's response to allegations about his links with spies is to threaten the freedom of the press.
Rather makes you think he may have something to hide doesn't it?
As a commentator aptly said:
"Corbyn doesn?t understand that it is the role of the press to criticise and, yes, mock politicians,
but it is never the role of politicians to threaten the press.

That a Labour leader cares so little for the radical historic struggle for this press freedom is deeply disturbing...."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:15 PM

http://www.theweek.co.uk/jeremy-corbyn/91802/jeremy-corbyn-rejects-spy-story-with-chilling-media-threat
Who is a silly boy for omitting the link? Might be accused of making things up without it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:28 PM

the rise of racism in Europe today

Would this be what you're referring to?

The largest number of anti-Semitic incidents in the European Union in 2016 was registered in Germany (1468) and Britain (1308), followed by Austria (477), the Netherlands (428), France (355) and Sweden (277).

The European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights is a Vienna-based body. It aims to help ensure that the fundamental rights of people living in the EU are protected

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:30 PM

Rag,
Oh no we have no evidence to support this, no, no evidence at all but we know it is the best path.
Utterly, utterly naive.

Here are some more of the millions who voted and still support Leave.
They may be proved wrong, but only a fool would dismiss them all as naïve.
Only a fool Rag.

Professor Gwythian Prins, Emeritus Research Professor, London School of Economics, visiting academic professor, École Spéciale Militaire de Saint-Cyr
Dr Philip Towle, Emeritus Reader in International Relations, and former Director of the Centre of International Studies, Cambridge

Sir Andrew Wood, former UK Ambassador to Yugoslavia and to Russia, and currently Associate Fellow, Russia and Eurasia Programme, Chatham House.
Philip Cunliffe Senior Lecturer in International Conflict, University of Kent.
Lord Maurice Glasman is a Labour Peer and political theorist and Director of the Common Good Foundation
Professor Robert J. Jackson is Distinguished Professor at Carleton University Ottawa and Emeritus Fletcher Jones Professor of International Relations at the University of Redlands, California.
Jonathan Rutherford, writer and political adviser, is Emeritus Professor of Cultural Studies, Middlesex University
Professor Richard Tuck, FBA, Frank G. Thomson Professor of Government at Harvard
Professor David Abulafia, FBA, is Professor of Mediterranean History, Cambridge
Professor Robert Colls, Professor of Cultural History at De Montfort University
Sir Noel Malcolm, FBA, is a Senior Research Fellow at All Souls’ College, Oxford
Andrew Roberts, Historian and biographer. Lehrman Institute Distinguished Fellow at the New York Historical Society and Visiting professor at the War Studies Department, Kings College London
Dr. Daniel Robinson, international history, Fellow of Magdalen College, University of Oxford, formerly Senior Policy Adviser to the Minister for the Cabinet Office on the Union and Devolution in the aftermath of Brexit.
Professor Jonathan Rutherford, writer, political adviser and Emeritus Professor of Cultural Studies, Middlesex University and co-founder of Blue Labour
Dr Peter Sarris Reader in Late Roman, Medieval and Byzantine History, Cambridge
Prof David Coleman, Professor of Demography, University of Oxford Institute of Population Aging.
Pamela Dow, formerly director of strategy at the Ministry of Justice, now chief reform officer, Catch22
Dr Joanna Williams, author and academic. Education Editor of Spiked magazine. Author of Academic Freedom in an Age of Conformity (Palgrave/McMillan)
Dr Ian Winter is a senior lecturer in the Department of Physiology, Development and Neuroscience, Cambridge

Dr Graham Gudgin Economist, Centre for Business Research, Judge Business School University of Cambridge
Professor Robert Tombs Emeritus Professor of French History, University of Cambridge
Sir Richard Aikens, QC, is a former member of the Court of Appeal, and has served as Vice President of the Council of Europe’s Consultative Council of European Judges
Baroness Ruth Deech, former chair of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, and former Principal of St Anne’s College, Oxford
Dr. Richard Ekins, Associate Professor in Law, St. Johns College, University of Oxford.
Professor Carol Harlow, QC, FBA, Emeritus Professor of Law at the London School of Economic
Professor Guglielmo Verdirame, Professor of International Law King’s College, London
Mr. Alexander Darwall, Jupiter Fund Management.
Sir Paul Marshall, Marshall Wace, Chairman of ARK Schools
Mr Rory Maw, Bursar, Magdalen College, Oxford
Dame Helena Morrissey. Head of Personal Investing. Legal and General Investment Management. Formerly Chief Executive, Newton Investment Management.
Professor Paul Ormerod, economist at Volterra Partners, a Visiting Professor at the UCL Centre for
Mr.Edmond Truell, Disruptive Capital Finance, London
Professor Nigel Biggar, Regius Prof of Moral and Pastoral Theology, and Canon of Christ Church, University of Oxford
Professor Paul Elbourne, Professor of the Philosophy of Language, Magdalen College, Oxford University
Dr James Orr McDonald Post-Doctoral Fellow in Theology, Ethics and Public Life, Christchurch College, University of Oxford
Dr. Tom Simpson, philosophy of public policy, Blavatnik School, University of Oxford
Professor John Tasioulas, Director of the Yeoh Tiong Lay Centre for Politics, Philosophy, and Law, King’s College, London
Dr Philip Cunliffe, Senior Lecturer in International Conflict, University of Kent
Sir Richard Dearlove, former head of the Secret Intelliegence Service, former master of Pembroke College, Cambridge, and Chair of the Trustees, University of London
Mr John Forsyth, former member of the Council of the Royal Institute for International Affairs and Centre of International Studies, Cambridge
Dr Lee Jones, Reader in International Politics, Queen Mary, University of London
Sir Peter Marshall, retired FCO, former Assistant Sec-Gen of Commonwealth

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:30 PM

"I'm sure you remember fairly recent cases of UK supermarket suppliers re-labelling food which was past its sell by dates and reintroducing it into stock."
OLDEST TRICK in the BOOK NIGEL
Nothing whatever to do with Europe
"Who is a silly boy for omitting the link? "
It has been established from your previous posting that this story originates from an extremist right-wing conspiracy theorist Iains
No harm in trying to pass it off as fact again, I suppose
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:35 PM

Jim,
"expelled for using offensive anti-Semitic term "zio""
Don't see any reference to the Jewish people there Keith

"Zio" is clearly recognised as an anti-Semitic term of abuse by the Labour Party and the Daily Mirror, hence the headline.

Universally actually.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:42 PM

Keith
Re your long list
I have little doubt that each and every one of them are as nmuch strangers to you as they are to the rest of us
Rather than scoop names up from the net, how about addressing the damage done so far - the racism, the destabilised economy, the deal with parties with terrorist links..... right down to the fact that the Government carried out no study on what would happen if Britain left Europe
An all-round fuck-up, whoever supports it
Any eejit can cut-'n-paste links - as you are constantly proving
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:44 PM

They are strangers to me Jim, but enough information is given to make it foolish to dismiss any of them as naïve.
That was my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:51 PM

3 out of 3! I am the predictionmeister:-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:54 PM

Sorry that should have been 4 out of 4. None of them have given us any good news. I am 33% better than I first thought:-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 01:42 PM

There is no news Dave.
It has not happened yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 01:44 PM


The problem of one country being able to easily offload dodgy goods onto another country is made easier by a 'common market'.

That is one way of looking at it. I would say it is the absence of border checks and failure to meet agreed standards that make it easy. Those may be features of a common market, but are not limited to common markets.

So do you want us to have border checks on food? And do you want us to be able to insist on higher food standards than those given in the article, 'race to the top' style?

By the way, there is some 'good news' in a forecast just out from the 'Economists for Free Trade' which predicts a financial benefit of leaving Brexit. Just a few problems with that:

- our Leavers dismiss all forecasting, so they are logically obliged to dismiss this one as well
- it assumes zero costs of borders, so no way to monitor if that bad food turns up at the border.
- it tolerates the collapse of the UK food market and other sectors if the US and other undercut it. In previous forecasts one of the authors thought this inevitable.
- all of the authors are from the 'Economists for Free Trade' group, so it will be hard to demonstrate this is impartial.

And, as it happens, their assumptions are not compatible with the position paper given to Parliament today, at least in the short term, or, since it is effectively a 'Singapore style' approach, with Davis' latest statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 01:57 PM

"It may be that Schoolmaster Shaw knows what Iains' intended meaning was better than Iains himself, but I very much doubt it!"

I don't doubt it. Schoolmaster Shaw appears to enjoy a level of literacy that poor Iains can only dream of (and that's not even bragging). Observe, Nigel:

"Sadly some adults can also be a naif."

The lack of comma and use of "can" are one thing. But, tell me, Nigel (no lightbulb-style joke intended here): how many adults does it take to constitute one "naif?"

Ah, how pretentiousness doth go before a fall! :-)

Anyhow, to listen to the news today you'd think that the hubris-ridden brexiteers actually have some control over the length and conditions of the transition period. They don't. We will comply with the wishes of the EU more or less in full, you'll see. And we will lose the power of veto into the bargain. Oh happy days. But no-one dares to make any move that would threaten Theresa May. No Theresa, no brexit is the Tory thinking. We are a laughing stock.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 02:13 PM

"It has been established from your previous posting that this story originates from an extremist right-wing conspiracy theorist Iains"

Funny that all the major news sources carry the sordid little tale then, is it not? Even the Gruniard and BBC repeat the story, both being hotbeds of the retard, libtard, remoaner fraternity.

The allegations are fact - substantiation, like brexit, is perhaps a future event.
Terrible things facts. that is why remoaners shy away from them, they destroy your narrative (always)

Below is a link describing Labour as the Stasi's useful idiots
From your faithful sleuth hound Guido
https://order-order.com/2018/02/21/read-in-full-stasi-file-on-british-labour-party/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/20/britain-in-a-stir-over-accusation-that-labour-leader-jeremy-corbyn-

squirm - squirm -squirm!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 02:42 PM

Good gracious. One of the crew trying to avoid answering a simple question by harping on about Jeremy Corbyn accusing someone of squirming. I have not seen such wriggling since Wrigley McWrigle took to the slopes in the men's slalom. I must say, I didn't see that one coming.

The other point about that news DMcG is that it assumes that any savings on imports will be passed on to the consumer. We all know that this never happens. The only people to benefit will be the shakers and movers. Joe Public will be paying the same for inferior products. As ever.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 03:06 PM

"Funny that all the major news sources carry the sordid little tale then,"
Is it really - have you been following the shit that's been slung at Corbyn since he took office
"From your faithful sleuth hound Guido"
Thank you for underlining my point - yet another right-wing conspiracy theorist
What planet do you occupy?
You've been linked to the author of this report - a right wing extremist nutter
"They are strangers to me Jim, but enough information is given to make it foolish to dismiss any of them as naïve.
That was my point."
And teh rest of us
We could spend the rest of our lives linking to different people for or againt Beexit - it is meaningless shit
Yoy make your point by addressing the situation as it sastans, not telling us who supports it
Most of the economics establishment have been horrified since the decision was taken - are they a naive bunch of morons?
You've nebver rally got to grips with what debating is about - have you
With you, it's a matter of hastily shuffling through the net until you find something that looks about right
I swear you don't even read it yourself before you post it
Address the facts - nobody needs lists of unknowns
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 03:59 PM

"It may be that Schoolmaster Shaw knows what Iains' intended meaning was better than Iains himself, but I very much doubt it!"

I don't doubt it. Schoolmaster Shaw appears to enjoy a level of literacy that poor Iains can only dream of (and that's not even bragging). Observe, Nigel:

"Sadly some adults can also be a naif."

The lack of comma and use of "can" are one thing. But, tell me, Nigel (no lightbulb-style joke intended here): how many adults does it take to constitute one "naif?"

Ah, how pretentiousness doth go before a fall! :-)

My comment was about your insistence that you knew that Iains intended the use of a word other than the one he originally used.

I then said that: I would imagine that we'll get clarification from Iains at some point. But even if he confirms that he always intended to use 'invidious' I doubt that that will be enough to convince you.

As Iains has confirmed that he chose his word correctly, you were wrong in your assertion, and I was right that you would not accept the fact.

'Schoolmaster Shaw' demonstrates again his failure to accept facts.
Or is it just that you assume that others will follow your guide in using words they don't mean as they can later retract them as 'mere whimsy'?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:04 PM

Hmmmmmmm I do not recall any of that long list of people posting to this thread.

One would gather from the above statement that I was referring to one individual as being utterly, utterly naive.

PS I am certain that is anyone wished to create a list of eminent people who voted to remain they could do so.

Any sign of any GOOD news yet .......................

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:18 PM

"Schoolmaster Shaw appears to enjoy a level of literacy that poor Iains can only dream of (and that's not even bragging). Observe, Nigel:

"Sadly some adults can also be a naif."

Observe Idiot,

Naif a less common word for naive. adj. 1590s, from French naif, literally "naive". As a noun, first attested 1893, from French, where Old French naif also meant "native inhabitant; simpleton, natural fool."

So tell me shaw, you pretentious little fellow, which one are you?
a simpleton? or natural fool?"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:20 PM

Iains, do you have any positive news to tell us about Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:39 PM

Yes! The day gets ever closer, and that hopefully will finally stop your wittering!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:42 PM

"Have you got any news of the iceberg?"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:58 PM

I don't think the analogy of sailing headlong into danger without listening to warnings and ultimately it all ending in disaster is quite what you had in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:02 PM

I see no ships!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:13 PM

Saying that "some adults can also be a naif" is the same as saying that "some people can be an idiot." The Schoolteacher Shaw would far rather redraft the sentence into a sensible form of English, viz. "some people can be idiots." Plural with plural in harmony, Nige. "Some people are capable of being idiots" would be even better, but hey ho. And Nigel, in the mangled words of Mandy Rice-Davies, Iains would say that, wouldn't he? Don't be such a naif, Nige!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:44 PM

"Yes! The day gets ever closer, and that hopefully will finally stop your wittering!"

Come on Iains, just find one postive forecast about our future, the future of our children and grandchildren.

And please not the "freedom" that is alleged to have been shouted by William Wallace as his knackers were hacked off and burnt before him.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:05 PM

Here you are. A government of the land of hopelessness and inglory, scrabbling around hopelessly for scraps. From the Guardian tonight.

. Theresa May has been forced to reassure jittery Brexiters on her own back benches as her 11-strong Brexit inner cabinet prepared to assemble for an eight-hour away-day to thrash out a deal on Britain?s future relationship with the European Union.

After another day in which Conservative differences over Brexit were exposed, ministers were summoned to the PM?s country retreat of Chequers for talks scheduled to go on until 10pm on Thursday...

...During the transition period, the UK will effectively remain a member of the single market and the customs union under the jurisdiction of the European court of justice, but without any say in the EU?s rules.

Sources at the Department for Exiting the EU insisted officials were simply trying to force the European commission to justify its insistence that the transition period should end 21 months after Brexit day on 29 March 2019.

In practice, Britain also fears that it could end up paying more for a longer transition, which would extend into the EU?s next budget period. ?It?s only an issue of three months in reality, and will very likely prove too expensive to change,? said one cabinet minister.

Is that the good news we can expect to cling to? What a bloody shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:50 PM

And Nigel, in the mangled words of Mandy Rice-Davies, Iains would say that, wouldn't he? Don't be such a naif, Nige!
You mean he would confirm that the word he originally used in a properly constructed sentence: Personally I expect this division, coupled with the invidious advance of momentum, to totally destroy the labour party.

You may wish to consider me na?ve, but I consider that you have never given up the role of bullying schoolteacher.

Pointing out a wrongly used singular in a later sentence does nothing to support your point about the earlier sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 07:05 PM

Nigel, I know he's your bosom buddy, but he used the wrong word. You know it, I know it,everyone else here (if they could be arsed to take an interest, which I hope they won't) knows it. Only Iains doesn't know it because he's a bit illiterate, as he's demonstrated over dozens of posts (yet he has the gall to criticise Jim!). Insidious yep. Invidious nein!

Gosh, what fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 02:12 AM

So today's the day when all will be revealed!

It might actually be the UK's preference.
Or it might be that the various sections of the Tory party finally prove they are irreconcilable.
Or it mihht be there is still another piece of fudge in the packet.

My money's on the last of these...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 03:23 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains - PM
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:18 PM
"Schoolmaster Shaw appears to enjoy a level of literacy that poor Iains can only dream of (and that's not even bragging). Observe, Nigel:
"Sadly some adults can also be a naif."
Observe Idiot,
Naif a less common word for naive. adj. 1590s, from French naif, literally "naive". As a noun, first attested 1893, from French, where Old French naif also meant "native inhabitant; simpleton, natural fool."
So tell me shaw, you pretentious little fellow, which one are you?
a simpleton? or natural fool?"
Is this really what now passes for intelligent discussion on this forum?
Time to move on to senior school, don'cha think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 03:34 AM

Time and time again these people are simply proving that there is no argument for brexit. All they can resort to is abuse, nitpicking and putting on a brave face.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 03:38 AM

"Is this really what now passes for intelligent discussion on this forum?
Time to move on to senior school, don'cha think?"

That can only happen when shaw ceases to be a twat.

Do you think it within his limited capabilities?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 04:19 AM

Anyway, to more important issues!
What is   the real corbyn? The mask is slipping.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5420211/Corbyn-neither-thinks-nor-talks-like-politician.html

Do you people really want to support this creature

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 04:20 AM

"That can only happen when shaw ceases to be a twat.
Do you think it within his limited capabilities?"
C'm on Iaians - not more of the same
I seldom, if ever agree with you, but even you have to be better than this
You're not even as good as your mentors - at least they made an effort to disguise their disdain for the rest of the world in a hard-coating of bullshit - you just pour out unskillful abuse, and have done from your earliest postings
And you accuse others of being "limited"
We're all prone to losing our rag but you have tried (and failed miserably) to make an art form of schoolyard-level abuse
You are neither interesting or amusing
A joke is a joke and you have become a very tiresome one
If you need a mentor - try Nigel - he at least seems to have put some thought into his arguments
Give yourself a break
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 04:35 AM

From Laura K's blog on the Beeb news website.

...if very much is to move forward and be agreed it will either require, as one minister gently lamented, "the PM to actually make a decision", overtly, on her own position and force others along - or for others to budge.
One former minister described the situation as this: "If everyone is happy it's a fudge. If anything's genuinely decided someone has to be unhappy.
"Either Philip Hammond has to agree that he is signed up to divergence, or Boris Johnson has to agree that he can accept alignment, or, someone resigns."

What a great way to run a country. We're well stuffed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 04:37 AM

Dave,
it assumes that any savings on imports will be passed on to the consumer. We all know that this never happens.

Is that a fact or another of your vacuous whims Dave?
EU goods have a competitive advantage over non-EU imports because they do not incur tariffs.
Or so I thought!

Please justify your astonishing claim.
(I am not asking you to jump through a hoop, just to justify your claim.
That is a reasonable request in a discussion.
When you make the claim you raise the hoop for yourself.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 04:45 AM

Now for a brief interlude on weeds.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/prevent-the-spread-of-harmful-invasive-and-non-native-plants

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 04:54 AM

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 04:37 AM

Dave,
it assumes that any savings on imports will be passed on to the consumer. We all know that this never happens.

Is that a fact or another of your vacuous whims Dave?
EU goods have a competitive advantage over non-EU imports because they do not incur tariffs.

Keith, sorry to appear to come in on the other side of the argument, but the above is an argument they also use. If we are purchasing from EU (except alcohol, tobacco & fragrances) we do not pay additional tariffs, but if the goods originated outside the EU, and enter the EU via a state other than UK, then any EU tariffs will already have been imposed, and hidden as a mark-up in the price we are paying. So although our bill for purchasing from EU may not show any tariff, it is there.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 05:06 AM

Thanks Nigel, but that would only apply to goods " goods originated outside the EU."

Tariffs make imports from outside EU more expensive.
When we leave such goods as food and clothing will not incur tariffs and will be cheaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 05:23 AM

I am not justifying anything to you, Keith. You dispute a statement, it is up to you to disprove it. But you may wish to read The UK trade forum take on tariffs. Particularly the simple statement For the most part, an increase in cost, such as one caused by the imposition of a new tariff, is passed onto the final buyer, otherwise known as you and I

After you have read that, you may want to find something published in mainstream sources by an eminent person who is still alive giving us something good about brexit. But I doubt you will.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 05:31 AM

You dispute a statement, it is up to you to disprove it.

I have. EU goods enjoy a competitive advantage here because no tariff is applied and that saving is passed on.

You claim it never is.
That is bollocks Dave. You just made it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 05:37 AM

Dave,
Particularly the simple statement For the most part, an increase in cost, such as one caused by the imposition of a new tariff, is passed onto the final buyer, otherwise known as you and I

Likewise a reduction in costs, such as the removal of a tariff, is passed on to the final buyer, otherwise known as you and me!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 05:42 AM

eh up Dave, you know those EU tariffs that are not imposed here, have a read of the attached article.



Wine Duties and Tariffs

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 06:14 AM

Duty:a consumption tax because it is imposed by the government on consumers.
Tariff:A form of duty or tax levied on goods for protective purposes and revenue purposes when they are transported from one customs area to another. It is also defined as a comprehensive list or schedule of merchandise or goods along with their prices which need to be paid for each item according to the regulations and rules of the government.

Read more: Difference Between Duty and Tariff | Difference Between http://www.differencebetween.net/business/finance-business-2/difference-between-duty-and-tariff/#ixzz57pnvVdyQ


Tu use either term in the context of the argument requires the terms be defined otherwise erroneous assumptions result.


http://www.differencebetween.net/business/finance-business-2/difference-between-duty-and-tariff/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 06:23 AM

Rag, UK charges a duty and VAT on all wines.
Wines from outside EU also carry a Tariff. EU wines do not.
French producers are very concerned about losing that advantage if UK is denied free trade after Brexit.

They give the lie to Dave's claim that tariff savings are never passed on. Of course they are!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 06:37 AM

That's amazing Dave, Import tariffs do exist. I'm sure someone on here claimed they didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 06:47 AM

Buying goods in another Member State

There are no limits on what private persons can buy and take with them when they travel between EU countries, as long as the products purchased are for personal use and not for resale, with exception of new means of transport. Taxes (VAT and excise) will be included in the price of the products in the Member State of purchase and no further payment of taxes can be due in any other Member State.


Tobacco and alcohol

However, special rules apply in the case of goods subject to excise duty, such as alcoholic beverages and tobacco products. If a private person purchases such products in one Member State and takes them to another Member State, the principle that no excise duty has to be paid in the Member State of destination only applies if the goods are

    for the own use of the traveller and
    transported by himself.

But commercially:Excise duties are indirect taxes imposed on goods that damage consumer health or pollute the environment. The duties increase the price paid by the consumer, thereby discouraging the consumption or waste of the products concerned.

The general arrangements for movement and storage of goods subject to excise duty covers mineral oils, manufactured tobacco, alcohol and alcoholic beverages

Legislation on this issue can be categorised into the structure (taxable amount and event) and rates of excise duties

    Alcohol and alcoholic beverages ? structure and rates
    Manufactured tobacco
    Mineral oils
    Energy products and electricity

The rates set by the EU are minimum rates. EU countries can set their tax rates at higher levels suitable to their needs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 06:50 AM

And from that same article, Raggytash:

“Non-EU net migration (+205,000) is now larger than EU net migration (+90,000), mainly due to the large decrease in EU net migration… Net migration of EU citizens has fallen by 75,000 over the last year… For non-EU citizens net migration increased by 40,000 over the last year.”

So we've "taken back control" even though we haven't yet taken back control, and this is only the start. Thing is, we have no control over people deciding not to come here or deciding to leave the country. This at a time when there are over a hundred thousand unfilled jobs in the NHS. Any suggestions, brexiteers? Perhaps we can do what we did when Ofsted started in the 1980s. They trained up new school inspectors in three days. We could set up some three-day training courses for new doctors and nurses, taking recruits straight from the sixth form. I'm sure they'd pick up the tricks of the trade on the hoof.

Brexiteers...?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 06:52 AM

Damn those question marks!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 06:54 AM

"We could set up some three-day training courses for new doctors and nurses, taking recruits straight from the sixth form. I'm sure they'd pick up the tricks of the trade on the hoof."

Is that how you got into teaching?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 07:30 AM

Likewise a reduction in costs, such as the removal of a tariff, is passed on to the final buyer, otherwise known as you and me!

Of course it is. Just like the tooth fairy leaves money under your pillow, Santa Claus comes down the chimney and the Easter bunny delivers eggs. Do you seriously believe that prices will come down rather than profits increasing?

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 07:45 AM

Rag,
That's amazing Dave, Import tariffs do exist. I'm sure someone on here claimed they didn't.

They did not Rag.
I will try to explain it again, but I doubt you will ever get it.

Import tariffs do exist.
EU countries do not impose tariffs on each other's goods.
EU countries have to impose tariffs on other countries unless a trade deal has been made.

When we leave we will not have to impose a tariff on anyone's goods. We can choose what goods require one.

Dave, your claim,
"it assumes that any savings on imports will be passed on to the consumer. We all know that this never happens."

Yes it does. You made that up. Your claim is based on nothing.
Just another vacuous whim from an empty head.

Or will you prove me wrong and tell us how you know this?
Confident prediction- no chance!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 08:23 AM

Meanwhile...

The EU has declared the "three basket approach" will not be acceptable. I wonder if the Chequers away-day will suggest it anyway.

And what about Rees-Mogg callibg May's transition plan a perversion of democracy.

Surely one of the Leave supporters has something to say about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 08:38 AM

Eh up Dave, you know that Joel Emmanuel Hagglund wrote quite a few songs. In one of them he created an expression that seems to fit the bill in people thinking the UK Government will not impose Import Tariffs on goods. That song is The Preacher and the Slave. It seems quite pertinent here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 09:03 AM

Once again, it is you disputing the claim, Keith, and it is up to you to disprove it. Or you could stick to the point and tell us all the benefits that post brexit UK will reap.

My confident prediction. You will not do either.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 09:50 AM

Anyway, more "good news" today to follow yesterday's "good news" about unemployment zooming up and wages still lagging behind inflation. Growth revised down, business investment down, exports down, imports up. In the words of the Carpenters, we've only just begun...

Any offers from our brave-facers?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 12:28 PM

Dave,
Once again, it is you disputing the claim, Keith, and it is up to you to disprove it.

You have made a claim but you can not tell us why you believe it.
You have no evidence for your claim.
It is just another of your whims.

If an importer overcharges for goods, a competitor will undercut them.

Or you could stick to the point and tell us all the benefits that post brexit UK will reap.

Just a few examples then Dave.

Cheaper food and clothes estimated to save the poorest 20% of their spending.

The freedom to make trade deals with anyone we want.

Not being shackled to "an institution which is driving and reinforcing many of the problems across Europe, from the refugee crisis to worsening work conditions, to a growing militarism. While it is continuing to penalise Greece, it turns a blind eye to far-right politics in Poland and Hungary, and looks like endorsing the return of Silvio Berlusconi in next month?s Italian election."

The right to control our own borders.

A fair deal for our fishing industry, ravaged by the EU since we joined.

Helping developing nations by removing tariffs from their produce.
Freedom from EU bureaucracy.

Restoring power to our own Parliament.
etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 12:59 PM

A fair deal for our fishing industry, ravaged by the EU since we joined


We discussed this a lot back in January. Here are some links and in some cases I have copied the text as well

==========

Dave the Gnome    17 Jan 18 - 04:06 AM

DMcG    17 Jan 18 - 05:09 PM
We will take back control of our internationally agreed fishing grounds
This is a very interesting one. It may or may not happen, but it is no simple matter. We have severely depleted our fishing fleets and the supporting facilities and it will take years to build them back up again. That could give us big problems in the meantime as we are talking investment with no short term return


Nigel Parsons    17 Jan 18 - 10:18 AM
We will take back control of our internationally agreed fishing grounds
This is a very interesting one. It may or may not happen, but it is no simple matter. We have severely depleted our fishing fleets and the supporting facilities and it will take years to build them back up again. That could give us big problems in the meantime as we are talking investment with no short term return.
The fact that we have a depleted fishing fleet does not cause a problem. We will be 'taking back control of our fishing grounds'. That does not have to mean we will fish them ourselves, but we will have control of any issue of fishing licences for them, and for how long those licences will be valid

===========

So Nigel is quite clear that getting control of the fishing grounds does not imply we fish them ourselves. Quite how that helps our fishermen - rather than big business ptentially from outside the UK - I leave you two to explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 01:26 PM

The UK has the second largest fishing fleet in the EU after Spain
(in gross tonnage) and lands the second largest live weight tonnage.(913k tonne in 2015)

Spanish out-UK in! not a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 01:46 PM

I have no intention of justifying anything whosoever to you Keith. There is no point other than to give you the attention you are seeking. You are better seeking that from someone who gives a toss what you think. Now, how about some benefits that are not disputed?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 02:09 PM

Stop complaining about Brexit ? the economic benefits will be huge.
You know it makes sense. You can read it here in the gruniard.


Stop complaining about Brexit ? the economic benefits will be huge

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 02:14 PM

Absolutely perfect, Iains. A link to these huge benefits says 'not found'. I couldn't have put it better :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 02:23 PM

The article is by John Longford, who was co-chair of "Leave means Leave".

Thanks for the evidence that the Guardian is sufficiently grown up to publish opinion pieces that represent a wide range of views. Not all papers are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 02:25 PM

Longworth. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 03:04 PM

D the G. Just goes to show the guardian not only has a problem with spelling. But I am sure a resourceful gnome can hop off his toadstool and find a missing link.
Any way- a partial taster!
All the benefits of Brexit are entirely independent from the single market and the customs union, except in so far as membership of these prevents us from crystallising them. There is also a potential and massively important fringe benefit of Brexit, in that the government will now have to do the things that George Osborne failed to deliver and which have been resisted by the City-dominated Treasury for so long.

We need to rebalance the economy, and from this imperative government no longer has a hiding place. Our new freedom and EU contribution monies mean the government, at last, has the mandate and the resources to support our small and medium-sized exporters, and not be transfixed by the often protectionist multinationals. We must invest in universities and research and development and actually build infrastructure, not just talk about it. Seek the lowest-cost sources of energy rather than burdening consumers with massive bills. Provide non-equity loan capital and finance for entrepreneurs, growing firms and the tech sector, even if it means the City turning a buck less.

Immigration must be cut, but not at the expense of talent and jobs. Bone fide university students should be assessed for immigration at the point of graduation, not entry ? after all, education is a service sector ?export? as much as selling Burberry handbags, and creates a network around the world and a pool of talent for business. We want the brightest and the best in this country, alongside investment in the development and training of our young people to ensure they are as employable as possible. It is shameful that we have nearly 600,000 unemployed under-25s........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 05:08 PM

The story that some would argue has no legs, not only has more legs that a millipede, but is growing wings as well. Would the CIA keep tabs on corbyn, unless they felt there was sufficient reason?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5423507/CIA-files-reveal-spies-kept-tabs-Jeremy-Corbyn.html

luvvin it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 05:56 PM

The whole yarn has been utterly discredited, and the good old Daily Mail is simply bringing the press into disrepute. Let it go, Iains. It's making you suffer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 03:12 AM

I am sure a resourceful gnome can hop off his toadstool and find a missing link.

Of course I can but it isn't half as much fun as pointing out that a link to post brexit benefits says 'file not found' :-)

A much better article on Jeremy 'Stalin' Corbyn in the Independant.

Enjoy

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 03:36 AM

"The story that some would argue has no legs,"
The only "legs" this story has is the fact that Mayfly's incompetence has made yet another General Election inevitable - I always look forward to hearing the cuckoo in the spring
'The Times' has widened the target to include 'Red Ron' Brown - so the entire Labour party is really a communist cell - I ***** wish - it might have made parliamentary politics a tad more interesting.
"Jeremy 'Stalin' Corbyn "
Nice one Dave (you must explain how to 'blue clickie The Independent some time - I can never manage to)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 03:55 AM

Calamity Jeremy

:

https://www.joe.co.uk/politics/gadzooks-loony-lefty-jeremy-corbyns-calamitous-manifesto-leaked-125059

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 04:06 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 12:59 PM

A fair deal for our fishing industry, ravaged by the EU since we joined

We discussed this a lot back in January. Here are some links and in some cases I have copied the text as well

==========
Dave the Gnome    17 Jan 18 - 04:06 AM

DMcG    17 Jan 18 - 05:09 PM
We will take back control of our internationally agreed fishing grounds
This is a very interesting one. It may or may not happen, but it is no simple matter. We have severely depleted our fishing fleets and the supporting facilities and it will take years to build them back up again. That could give us big problems in the meantime as we are talking investment with no short term return


Nigel Parsons    17 Jan 18 - 10:18 AM
We will take back control of our internationally agreed fishing grounds
This is a very interesting one. It may or may not happen, but it is no simple matter. We have severely depleted our fishing fleets and the supporting facilities and it will take years to build them back up again. That could give us big problems in the meantime as we are talking investment with no short term return.
The fact that we have a depleted fishing fleet does not cause a problem. We will be 'taking back control of our fishing grounds'. That does not have to mean we will fish them ourselves, but we will have control of any issue of fishing licences for them, and for how long those licences will be valid

===========

So Nigel is quite clear that getting control of the fishing grounds does not imply we fish them ourselves. Quite how that helps our fishermen - rather than big business ptentially from outside the UK - I leave you two to explain.

I thought the answer would be implicit in my earlier reply:
The fact that we have a depleted fishing fleet does not cause a problem. We will be 'taking back control of our fishing grounds'. That does not have to mean we will fish them ourselves, but we will have control of any issue of fishing licences for them, and for how long those licences will be valid
Once we have the control we can issue licences to maximise/control the amount of fishing, but allowing it to continue while we get our own fishing fleet back to its previous size (in line with our new fishing area). At which time, time limited licences (to businesses in other countries) will expire to be replaced by increased licences to UK companies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 05:02 AM

BTW - I should have added a genuine 'Well done Iains' to my last post. The article is what I have been asking for for days and you have been the first to provide it. It predicts a good positive outcome for brexit as long as the government do it properly. That fact that this present administration seem incapable of doing anything right does little to allay my fears but at least someone is trying. Unfortunately it is just one ray of hope in a forest of doom laden outcomes. Thanks anyway.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 05:09 AM

Dave,
I have no intention of justifying anything whosoever to you Keith.

You can not justify your claims to anyone because you just make them up.

If you make a claim you should be able to support it with some knowledge or fact.
I do. We all do except you.
You can not because yours are just made up by you.

Brexit will change our policy on refugees and asylum seekers.
Made up claim, based on no knowledge or fact.
Tariff savings never lead to lower prices.
Made up claim based on no knowledge or fact.

Just empty head whims.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 05:14 AM

Keith, if you feel that my contributions are empty headed then ignore them. Treat them with the contempt you feel that they deserve ra. Absolutely no skin off my nose at all. And which bit of fuck off is so difficult to understand?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 05:16 AM

...they deserve ra... ther than trying and failing to analyse them.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 05:29 AM

have control of any issue of fishing licences for them,?and for how long those licences will be valid
Once we have the control we can issue licences to maximise/control the amount of fishing, but allowing it to continue while we get our own fishing fleet back to its previous size (in line with our new fishing area). At which time, time limited licences (to businesses in other countries) will expire to be replaced by increased licences to UK companies.

As I said originally, this is complex. We can only sell the licences to people interestes in buying them and i expect that they would be seeking long lasting licences. I don't know, of course, but it seems likely. And if the licence is even moderately long term - say ten ywars - we get back to long term investment in UK industry with no financial return.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 05:53 AM

By the way, Dave, I agree Iains deserves a pat on the back for finding a prediction saying Brexit can be positive which has some arguments to say why.

However, lines in the article need to be read between. Fot example the phrase "Seek the lowest-cost sources of energy rather than burdening consumers with massive bills" means precisely what is says. There are pressure to create more open cast coal mines in the North East despite the government line that they will all be closed by (I think) 2025. Local environmental damage? Long term pollition and carbon emissions? Pah! Cheap is all that counts. Fracking? If it is cheap, bring it on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 05:55 AM

Got to have some fish before you need to worry about fishing.


http://www.thecommentator.com/article/6092/the_eu_s_betrayal_of_britain_s_fishing_industry

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 06:39 AM

"Calamity Jeremy"
Interesting how a decent opposition leader has the rabid right running arounfd in circles
"Joe" who exactly - Mengele maybe - they never caught up with him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 06:41 AM

Ians's Guardian piece,
"We should aim to remove tariffs, either unilaterally or through free trade negotiations, thus reducing the cost of food by up to 40%, and the cost of clothing and footwear by up to 20%."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/23/complaining-brexit-economic-benefits-government-cost-of-living-multinationals

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 06:47 AM

Always beware of the words 'up to'!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 07:06 AM

As I said originally, this is complex. We can only sell the licences to people interestes in buying them and i expect that they would be seeking long lasting licences. I don't know, of course, but it seems likely. And if the licence is even moderately long term - say ten ywars - we get back to long term investment in UK industry with no financial return.
Whether we have a 'cliff edge' exit in March 2019, or an extension to December 2020, I wouldn't expect Spanish fishermen to chose a sudden cessation of being able to fish British waters to a longer (3 years, 5 years, 10 years?) period of fishing UK waters in which to plan for their future fishing areas.
Of course, if there was a sudden stop, with no uptake of licences, and the UK fishing fleet too small initially to maximise the catch, then that may be good for the fishing stocks in our waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 07:21 AM

I wouldn't expect Spanish fishermen to chose a sudden cessation of being able to fish British waters to a longer (3 years, 5 years, 10 years?) period of fishing UK waters in which to plan for their future fishing areas.

Nor would I. But that is precisely what gets us back to how does this benefit the UK fishing industry. The Spanish still have the licence to fish. I, were I a UK fishing fleet owner, still have what I have now, or have perhaps had it extended to the maximum my existing fleet can cope with, but should I invest in new boats knowing that when the Spanish licence comes to an end there is no guarantee the Spanish will not win the next round, so all my investment is wasted?

Unlike many Brexit issues, I think this one is actually soluable, but only if 'getting back control' means the UK will actively control it rather than just letting the market decide. It will have to refuse some profitable licences to help UK industry. Totally against what Longworth says we need to do to get the Brexit benefit, but hey ho!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 08:03 AM

"Interesting how a decent opposition leader has the rabid right running around in circles"

It's also interesting that they've forgotten that personal attacks on Corbyn and pointless dirt-digging on him, instead of showing that they are a responsible and grown-up administration, are exactly the tactics that lost them their majority. Gosh, he looks like a cuddly bunny when set alongside the Tories secretly trying to do deals with the IRA and Thatcher cosying up to ratbags such as Reagan and Pinochet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 08:24 AM

Interesting article on the fishing industry here:

Facts not Fantasy

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 09:09 AM

"set alongside the Tories secretly trying to do deals with the IRA "
And bunging a billion to the terrorist connected DUP from taxpayers money
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 09:31 AM

"Interesting how a decent opposition leader has the rabid right running arounfd in circles"

Interesting how shining the spotlight on young jeremy of the allotment shows the true nature of the man.(the spy come in from the allotment,
according to the FT) Was Was Jeremy Corbyn a spy? shuffling scruffily around St James’s Park with his cling-filmed sandwiches, looking for dead drops – or screwing tiny microphones into the lids of his jars of home-made jam before presenting them to unsuspecting colleagues.
"In John le Carré’s most recent novel, A Legacy of Spies, George Smiley laments “a cause the world barely remembers” – and, as so often, he is right. The worst possible reaction to the reports of Corbyn’s Czech connection is also the most common: who cares?" To which the old adage "you can tell a man by the company he keeps" requires to be displayed everywhere in four foot fluorescents. The allegations cannot be dismissed as an irrelevance. Who controls the past controls the future, as all totalitarians know. But it is also true that those who insist upon understanding the past have the best chance of safeguarding their own liberty.
He is unfit for the highest office.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 09:42 AM

"To which the old adage "you can tell a man by the company he keeps"

Should this also apply to every Foreign Secretary from Charles James Fox. I would have thought that the Foreign Secretary must by the very nature of the position meet some dubious officials.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 10:38 AM

Not your work, was it, Iains?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 11:18 AM

"Not your work, was it, Iains?"
Written by Matthew Robert Ralph d'Ancona Deputy editor of Conservative paper, 'The Sunday Telegraph', now editor of the Conservative 'Spectator'
What the hell else is someone as "interesting" as that going to say Iains
Little wonder you didn't link your quote
Have you tried the BNP or Ukip websites yet - maybe something there!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 12:19 PM

Well that was an extremely successful diversion and wasted their time for a while.


MOI? Plagiarise?

Damm right!!!!!
it is one way of stopping your constant bleating.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 12:24 PM

An amusing gem from guido:

The Information Commissioner?s office has written to MPs to remind them not to share their usernames and passwords with others. Information Commissioner Elizabeth Denham wrote to all MPs this week:

    ?My office observed reports from social media in early December 2017 in which a number of Members openly revealed their practice of sharing their login details and passwords. I was concerned by these reports and have decided to write to all Members to highlight the importance of following good practice in respect of password management and information security.?

During the Damian Green scandal press reports noted the practice of MPs sharing their passwords with staff. Sharing passwords could give MPs plausible deniability over their online actions?

The letter from the ICO came to MPs in the notoriously impregnable form of a Microsoft Word document. The properties tab in Word revealed the username of the document?s author and members of ICO staff who had edited it. Some way to go to achieve max info sec?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 12:26 PM

https://order-order.com/2018/02/23/labour-momentum-and-communist-party-to-hold-cooperation-meeting/
The Labour Party and Momentum will join forces with the Communist Party of Britain at a “cooperation” meeting next month. The CPB are the Marxist-Leninist wing of Britain’s communist movement. They are holding a “fraternal” conference where they will team up with Corbynistas to plot joint aims and activities. Momentum officer Michael Calderbank will speak at the meeting entitled: “Working With Labour for a Socialist Future”. Adverts for the event show two red hands grasping each other, one emblazoned with the Labour Party’s red rose logo, the other with the communist hammer and sickle…

The Communist Party of Britain aims to “put Britain on the road to socialist revolution” by means including “extra-parliamentary struggle.” The party openly praises the Soviet Union, Maoist China and other totalitarian communist regimes. Who needs Agent COB when you’ve got Labour openly working together with communists?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 12:32 PM

What, two diversion attempts at the same time? You are getting ambitious, but "no bid".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 01:14 PM

More Guido Fawkes the fascist - you really are stuck for a buckety of shgit to throw over Labour
All parties of the left have joined to oppose the slaughter that is going on in Syria at present while the Tories remained unchanged in their silent support for Assad
Today's Communist party is a wishy-washy reformist party - probably on par with the left of the Liberers
Despite the wishes of Mayflowers - it remains as it always has been, a legal minority party
How about answering the fuck-ups of your Government instead of attempting to smear those doing the job the Tories are not
WE JUST SHRUG
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 01:45 PM

" instead of attempting to smear those doing the job the Tories are not"
Missed a bit
add - "but instead are desperately attempting to return the refugees from Syria back into the war zones or are standing by watching drowned refugee children lifted out of the sea"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 02:07 PM

EU will be presenting its position in March, even if UK still indecisive

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 02:29 PM

"but instead are desperately attempting to return the refugees from Syria back into the war zones or are standing by watching drowned refugee children lifted out of the sea"

But if we and our allies quit starting totally illegal wars in the Middle East and Africa there would be no migrant problem.

A little accurate reporting would not go amiss either. We are still leaning on every word from the "white helmets". They were totally discredited years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 02:49 PM

"The Communist Party of Britain aims to 'put Britain on the road to socialist revolution'..."

No it doesn't, neither does it "openly praise" the Soviet Union or Maoist China. You are getting a little hysterical now, providing us with madman sources that, as ever, you haven't checked before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 04:02 PM

Are we quoting fact. fiction or merely being whimsical Shaw? Unless you tell us there is not much point in paying any further attention to your nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 04:39 PM

You're quoting fiction. That's your problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 03:47 AM

So let's talk about Corbyn and Labour and Brexit in a way that is relevant.

Rumour has it that his speech on Monday will declare Labour will seek 'A' customs union, but it cannot be 'THE' customs union.   This seems to me a crucial speech. He may back out and not say anything at all. After this build up, the Tories and Brexiteers would exploit the hell out of that, and it could dismay and lose a lot of his support.

Or, if he overdoes the distinction between 'A', and 'THE', he risks an immediate answer from the EU that this is still "cake and eat it", with a slightly different cake. "Agree where we want, differ where we want? How is that different to Teresa May's stance?" they may say. Again, I could see that being exploited to make a hard Brexit more likely. "You've tried everything else with no success so a complete break is the only option" will be the most pleasant thing they will say.

So the only winning position I see is for the EU response to be "We can take that as a negotiating position. Naturally we disagree, but we can work from there".

It will be a tough speech to pitch correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 04:26 AM

"The Communist Party of Britain aims to 'put Britain on the road to socialist revolution'."
At the beginning of the 1960s (around 1962) the British Communist Party adopted @The British Road to Socialism' as its policy, in doing so it eschewed and pretence of revolutionary aims that it ever had (if it ever had any)
It decided on a 'Parliamentary' plan of activity and concentrated all its work on locl and campaigning issues.
In doing so, it attrated the contempt of all genuine Left organisations and became a 'revisionist' group.
You only have to read 'The Morning Star' or 'Marxism Today' (if it still exists, to see wat a conventional party the C.P. has become
THis 'spying' nonsense is real Len Deighton or John Le Carre stuff - dreamed up for suppressing new ideas in a failing society
As far as openly praising the Soviet Union and China are concerned - the two were constantly at each others throats - they even went to war at one stage.
That both improved the lives of their people is beyond argument - they moved from being backward feudal dictatorships to being world leaders in a matter of decades
That people may be unhappy at the way they did that is a point of discussion, but no nation who poured burning petrol on peasants, as the U.S. did, or dropped atomic bombs on cities full of civilians, or slaughtered third World countries for oil, or propped up up murderous dictators while they imprisoned, raped and murdered their opponents.... as the West has been doing for nearly a century has left itself any room to condemn the actions of others
At present, Briain's ally, Assad, is in the process of slaughtering the occupants of a city, while our leaders stay silent and work their little balls off to keep refugees from the current slaughter from polluting our 'green and pleasant land'
Grow up Iains and stop reverting to stupid arguments that have helped keep us ignorant of what our leaders are doing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 04:36 AM

Jim, Iains has been very clear that his only interest is manipulating you and others to divert this thread, and when you respond he sees that as success. He probably doesn't care a whit about the actual role of the Communist party; even if he does it is incidental to his purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 04:39 AM

y, Assad, is in the process of slaughtering the occupants of a city, while our leaders stay silent

No. They struggle to get a ceasefire for humanitarian aid, but Russia blocks it at the Security Council.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 05:07 AM

"No. They struggle to get a ceasefire for humanitarian aid, "
Stand by and let it happen, as they have from day one and then send charity from the taxpayer's money - yeah - that'll sort things out
Very noble
"Jim, Iains has been very clear that his only interest is manipulating you "
I'm aware of that Mac - no-one is really responding to the arguments on Brexit here - not even Nigel, who appears to have some degree of interest in the subject, so why not help them humiliate themselves by exposing their child-like grasp of politics
This thread has been treading water for some time now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 05:14 AM

Should we have sent troops to fight Hezbollah, Iranian and Russian forces Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 05:26 AM

The thread is Post Brexit life in the UK. In this context post does not mean something holding up a fence. Therefore all discussion is conjecture. With no facts, there is nothing to discuss, other than further conjecture.
Now did you know that grass is green? It can be both a crop and a weed. It is a clever little b*****r, is it not?

" child-like grasp of politics" Not only does he have that, but jimmy lives in a timewarp.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 06:56 AM

How do we feel about BINO?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 06:57 AM

The FACT is that the Communist Party is not a revolutionary outfit. Very checkable. Checking things before you post them has never been your strong point. And it looks like the legs have well and truly dropped off your spy yarn, by the way. Told you so. Anything else juicy in the Mail today, Iains?

DMcG, I doubt whether the EU will have the time to bother much with what the leader of the opposition says unless there's an election in the offing. What Jeremy has to do is (a) show leadership rather than apparent indecision and paralysis, (b) show that the party is distinct from the Tories on brexit, (c) show that he realises that his lukewarm attitude to the EU is looking more and more misplaced as these non-negotiations fail to progress, and decide to put the interests of the country first. At the very least, that means staying in the single market and THE customs union. "Control of our borders" has become an irrelevance, as we've seen net migration from the EU plummet and unfilled NHS jobs reach a hundred thousand - and the one thing we will never control is the number of people who leave, taking their skills with them. "Control of our laws" has always been a red herring as we agree fully with 97% of the thousands of EU laws, have played a big part in drawing them up and have the power of veto over major issues we don't like (such an EU army, which could never happen on our watch). It will take years or decades to strike deals with protectionist countries such as the US and China, and they will end up being not very good deals, and our financial services sector will be severely compromised. It's remarkable how many people on the left, mostly once hostile to the EU (me included) have seen the light about what's unquestionably best for this country and for Europe, that is, the UK having a strong and influential role within the EU, including helping to lead its reform.

Baroness Warsi, who is that rare beast, a passionate and honest Tory who I actually don't mind listening to (and about whom I've often wondered why she's a Tory at all), said on Any Questions last night (33 minutes in) that the political leaders in this country should get round a table, eschew all the lies that have been peddled by both sides and hammer out a policy that is in the interests of this country, not in the interests of any of their parties. I heartily agree with her and I hope that will happen. As I've said before, I do a lot of hoping on this. Any Questions is repeated at 1.10 today on Radio 4.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 07:03 AM

In spite of efforts to exclude and ignore this fact brexit was sold on an anti immigration/refugee ticket with the intention that a post Brexit Britain (the subject of this discussion) would exclude more foreigners - that was the policy of Ukip and the arguments of the right - it was a racist "let's keep them out" sales pitch that won the votes for this shambolic policy that had sweet **** all else to recommend it.
The result of the referendum debased the British people as a whole when a large enough minority of the population to carry it through fell for the oldest political line in the book - "it isn't our fault we have ****** up your lives - blame those ******* foreigners, so help us get rid of them"
Had Post-war Britain adopted this policy when Nazism was on the rise there would be far less Jews on the planet today than there are - today we demand that refugees from wars Britain has helped to cause should be returned to the war-zones and watch silently as their drowned children are pulled out of the sea
Britain has been shamed by this squalid vote - that should feature in all discussions about Brexit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 09:17 AM

Just days before the referendum StrongerIn played their trump card. Airbus and Siemens publicly warned of the risk that they would leave Britain, if Britain left the EU. It was one of the most credible arguments of Project Fear from CEOs of respected giant industrial firms. Siemens, the bluechip German engineering giant, could go home. Airbus in particular, the champion and political symbol of multi-national cooperation, would probably come under pressure to re-trench. Britain’s multi-billion aerospace industry and engineering base would be at risk.

What actually happened? Siemens’ CEO Joe Kaeser soon announced after the vote he was “confident and optimistic” about the “big opportunities” in Brexit Britain:

    “There is no reason not to invest tomorrow, if there is a demand and a commitment from the customer. I am willing – and the company is willing to invest – further. There are more opportunities than risks for us.”

Yesterday brought the icing on the cake, Bloomberg revealed that the Airbus Chief Executive Officer Tom Enders has written to the Business Secretary Greg Clark promising the U.K. government that Airbus plans to retain its British operations “long into the future’’ – this from the most europhile of CEOs. Project Fear’s strongest cards turned out to be bluffs.

The same people who bluffed before now say if Brexit happens it will be a disaster for the economy. Ignore what they say and instead follow the money. Investment banks like Bank of America and Goldman Sachs are spending billions on new headquarters in London, europhile Bloomberg too. The Brexodus of big business is not happening, instead they are investing billions for the long term. Brexit is going to be great…

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 09:50 AM

Apologies over the Corbyn spy stories

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 09:53 AM

Another bon mott verbatim "from Guido to the gullible, with love" Iains
No wonder you don't link this shit
Have you nothing to say for yourself, or would you rather just try to impress ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 10:12 AM

I like to see you do a bit of research jimmy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 10:41 AM

DMcG, I doubt whether the EU will have the time to bother much with what the leader of the opposition

You are right about that, of course. But I would not be at all surprised if our press questioned the EU representatives for their view about whatever Corbyn says. They, as experience politicians, will deflect, but anything they say will be taken down and used in evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 10:46 AM

Mrs G and I went to the local Italian eatery last night, Steve, and on your recommendation I had a large glass of Nero d'Avolo, their house red. Very good indeed and I shall bring what little pressure I can to bear on my employers to sell it at £5:-)

What has this to do with brexit I hear some ask. Well, post brexit when said vino is subject to import tariffs I suspect our little trattoria will find Calafornian Zinfandel at 10p a bucket will make better financial sense. I suppose we had best start getting used to huge burgers, cheese whiz and root beer as well.

Sigh

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 11:25 AM

I suspect our little trattoria will find Calafornian Zinfandel at 10p a bucket will make better financial sense.

Well, if that happens I will simply pass on some comments from the Wines of the World course I went on a couple of years ago. The lecturer (who is French) thought there were some great American wines, but not from California. However, almost every state has vineyards. I have found some very pleasant bottles from Oregon and Washington State, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 12:14 PM

Wine tariff, at 10p a bottle, is dwarfed by the duty charged here.
Will that 10p on a bottle change your drinking habits?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 12:25 PM

I suppose we had best start getting used to huge burgers, cheese whiz and root beer as well

never!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 12:26 PM

"I like to see you do a bit of research jimmy."
Just as I like to see you humiliate yourself
All helps to clear the trolls
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 12:35 PM

There are some very good Wines from America cousin McG, as well as some fine ale and food. I think everyone gets the drift though. Apart from Keith but that goes without saying :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 08:39 PM

So, Iains, a grovelling apology and donation to charity from the Tory scumbag who accused Jezza of cavorting with Czech "spies." The legs have truly fallen off the story, haven't they, Iains? Just you and the Daily Mail now, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 03:31 AM

Vince Cable, leader of the Liberal Democrats, said: "It looks logistically impossible for the Conservatives to get the statutory instruments resulting from their EU (Withdrawal) Bill through Parliament before their preferred Brexit date of March next year.

"The only way they would have a fighting chance would be to cancel Christmas and summer holidays for MPs. That might upset their backbenchers, but we'll oppose their shambolic Brexit wherever, whenever.


How amusing. So MPs are being challenged to say which is more important

- the role of Parliament and proper scrutiny of bills affecting every aspect of UK life.

Or

- their holidays.


I think we can guess the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 04:46 AM

I think everyone gets the drift though. Apart from Keith....

You did not Dave.
You posted,
"Well, post brexit when said vino is subject to import tariffs I suspect our little trattoria will find Calafornian Zinfandel at 10p a bucket will make better financial sense"

You clearly had no idea what difference taiffs make to wine.
Californian and other non-EU wines would only be 10p a bottle cheaper if tariffs were removed, and EU wines only 10p dearer if tariffs were applied.

I am constantly astonished that you people can have such strong opinions on something you know nothing about.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 04:55 AM

"So, Iains, a grovelling apology and donation to charity from the Tory scumbag who accused Jezza of cavorting with Czech "spies." The legs have truly fallen off the story, haven't they, Iains? Just you and the Daily Mail now, is it?"

I hear no dulcet tones! As a well educated??? should know.
It is not over until the fat lady sings

Also someone that bleats about the use of the term abbacus or abbopotomus really should not talk about scumbags, unless of course it is a self description.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 05:15 AM

Keep up. The fat lady has well and truly sung. And you've called people here a lot worse, haven't you? "Scumbag" is indeed not very nice. It wasn't meant to be. Should we delve back a bit to make a list of some of the names you've called Jeremy Corbyn as well as Diane? But at least "scumbag" doesn't mock the target's actual personal appearance. Move on. Wot Jezza sez tomorrow is far more crucial. There's plenty of pressure coming from within the Labour Party for a shift towards a policy of staying in the single market. It's been well said that he would then be leading a parliamentary majority in favour of it. I can see that as a way forward of mitigating the impending catastrophe.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 06:03 AM

"It is not over until the fat lady sings"
Long the cry of the defeated
It was a non starter put into motion by a extremist right wing conspiracy theorist and grasped by right wing politicians who are worried that their careers will be interrupted by someone who might just introduce principles into British politics
Back in 1988 the Beeb produced one of the best political dramas it ever commissioned, A VERY BRITISH COUP
Talk about a glimpse into the future - that future has been with us for some time now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 06:35 AM

I see jimmy has a playmate.


https://www.rt.com/uk/419673-corbyn-media-rant-spy/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 06:50 AM

You've managed to shed every last vestige of what was left of your dignity by clinging ridiculously to this silly yarn, Iains. Don't think for a single second that refusing to let it go is going to restore your reputation. It's just making you look foolish. It's done and dusted, busted, can't be trusted. Gone. In the past, except in the eyes of desperado right-wingers. And it has nothing to do with brexit, but do carry on. Tomorrow is going to be far more interesting. Raise your game.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 07:28 AM

Is that drivelling fact, fiction, or whimsy perchance?
A very bad imitation of monty python there shaw. But to be a sucessful imitator requires a certain level of intelligence, doncha think.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 07:55 AM

It was an imitation of Woody Guthrie, in fact. More of a homage to the great man, I'd say. How the refugee Okies were viewed: busted, disgusted, can't be trusted. It's there in the Library Of Congress recordings, made with Alan Lomax. Could add "drunk" to the beginning, as per Billy Ray Charles, but it's a bit early for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 08:13 AM

You appear to have retreated from your defence of this monster and are now throwing up a diversionary smokescreen to cover your retreat Iains - a bit obvious
Typos and red herrings - you really are not very good at this, are you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 08:29 AM

Just this minute witnessed the ludicrous spectacle of a remainer Tory, Anna Soubry, taking a LABOUR politician (John Mann, a troglodytic throwback if ever there was one) to task over the mythology of an EU immigration problem. He's up for a customs union but not for the single market, because he thinks that would be selling out the people who voted leave who would then have to "endure" free movement (of those people who keep our NHS on the road, clean our hotels, keep our restaurants afloat, pick our crops in freezing fields and wipe old people's bottoms at four in the morning). That immigration problem. In other words, he'd rather play politics than advocate solutions that are plainly in the interests of this country. And that's two bloody Tories I've praised in two days. I'm questioning my own sanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 12:51 PM

" I'm questioning my own sanity." Some of us have questioned it for a considerable period of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 12:56 PM

For the sour scouser.
Many royal courts throughout English royal history employed entertainers and most had professional fools, sometimes called licensed fools. Entertainment included music, storytelling, and physical comedy. It has also been suggested they performed acrobatics and juggling.

Henry VIII of England employed a jester named Will Sommers.

During the reigns of Elizabeth I and James I of England, William Shakespeare wrote his plays and performed with his theatre company the Lord Chamberlain's Men (later called the King's Men). Clowns and jesters were featured in Shakespeare's plays, and the company's expert on jesting was Robert Armin, author of the book Fooled upon Foole. In Shakespeare's Twelfth Night, Feste the jester is described as "wise enough to play the fool".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 12:59 PM

the Tory scumbag who accused Jezza of cavorting with Czech "spies."

He did cavort with a Czeck spy. He had at least one meeting.
The apology was for suggesting he sold secrets, for which there is no evidence and which Jezza did not have access to anyway.
He was just being groomed for future use.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 01:02 PM

Yeah well - a cut 'n paste from wiki seems to be as high as the bar gets for you Iains
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 01:06 PM

The free market in action!

https://www.thelocal.fr/20150727/french-farmers-block-routes-from-spain-germany

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 01:21 PM

So, 10% of French farms are "on the brink of bankruptcy" with a combined debt of a billion Euros.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 01:48 PM

"He was just being groomed for future use."

Interesting statement. In order to make it, one would assume some detailed knowledge of the facts.

If made without further knowledge I suggest it could be considered libelous.

I am inclined to forward this the Labour Party legal team in order that they make use of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 01:58 PM

The hidden side of Brexit is already happening. The following report indicates that 21 Financial Institutions, including JP Morgam, Barclays, Bank of America and Standard & Poors have already located some of their work to Ireland.

Further companies may follow suit.

Link

These may be the tip of the iceberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 02:10 PM

"He was just being groomed for future use."

Well Keith, we know how you love to do comedy in these threads, but this one truly takes the biscuit.


Bwahahahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 02:12 PM

The financial services sector is potentially the biggest brexit disaster of all, Raggytash. I wonder why we haven't heard much about it....as yet....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 02:13 PM

Rag,
I am inclined to forward this the Labour Party legal team in order that they make use of it.

Oh no! Please don't Rag. What will become of me?

one would assume some detailed knowledge of the facts.

Of course. My statements and claims can always be substantiated.
No shit about hoops from me.

BBC today,
"Nothing in Agent Dymic's descriptions of three meetings with the Labour MP - two in the House of Commons, one on Seven Sisters Road - suggest the StB ever regarded him as anything other than a potential source."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43168245

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 02:15 PM


I am constantly astonished that you people can have such strong opinions on something you know nothing about.

I am constantly astonished that some people still cannot get the gist of 'fuck off'.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 02:20 PM

"He was just being groomed for future use."
Wasn't that The Manchurian Candidate Keith
Braindeads of the world Unite
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 03:32 PM

" seems to be as high as the bar gets for you Iains"

Well I do set the bar rather high for myself jimmy.
Whereas you, by your usual language, apparently inhabit the gutter.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 03:59 PM

Constantly resorting to the Daily Mail and Guido means that you haven't even GOT a bar.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 05:14 PM

Strolling out for a troll again shaw? If you have nothing to contribute, you could simply keep quiet. I realise this could be quite a departure for someone as opinionated as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 07:29 PM

You haven't mentioned brexit in any of your last nine posts to this brexit thread, Iains. Your excuse is...?

I see we have the venerable Frank Field, that contrarian supremo, fighting the leavers' corner now. I've been asking meself (in his case, for years) why he's Labour, as with John Mann, just like I've been asking meself why Anna Soubry and Sayeed Warsi are Tories...

At times, even Ken Clarke...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 03:34 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 03:31 AM
Vince Cable, leader of the Liberal Democrats, said: "It looks logistically impossible for the Conservatives to get the statutory instruments resulting from their EU (Withdrawal) Bill through Parliament before their preferred Brexit date of March next year.

"The only way they would have a fighting chance would be to cancel Christmas and summer holidays for MPs. That might upset their backbenchers, but we'll oppose their shambolic Brexit wherever, whenever.

How amusing. So MPs are being challenged to say which is more important

- the role of Parliament and proper scrutiny of bills affecting every aspect of UK life.
Or
- their holidays.

I think we can guess the answer.

Was this intended to make a point, or to highlight the fact that Vince Cable seems to confuse logic with logistic?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 04:04 AM

Oh Dear! Some one else has the audacity to argue with shaw.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/02/23/take-former-spy-accusations-against-jeremy-corbyn-should-taken/

I suspect he knows a tad more about the subject than an ex union activist and ex teacher to boot!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 04:05 AM

Dave,
I am constantly astonished that some people still cannot get the gist of 'fuck off'.

We all do Dave, but no-one has to take orders from you, however abusive.

Jim,
"He was just being groomed for future use."
Wasn't that The Manchurian Candidate Keith

No. It was Jeremy Corbyn according to the official records of the Czechoslovak communist era secret police, the StB, as reported by the BBC.

Steve,
Bwahahahahaha!

The laugh is on you and Rag.
I was right and you were wrong, yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 04:34 AM

"No. It was Jeremy Corbyn according to the official records of the Czechoslovak communist era secret police, the StB, as reported by the BBC"
Utter crap
Corbyn was an unknown nonentity in the Labour party - one of many hundreds of thousand young people who visited the Eastern Bloc out of curiosity; if they had spent their time and money on grooming such people their system would have collapsed many decades ago
You people live in a fantasy world of badly written Cold War spy novels
The source of all this so-called information is a fantasist conspiracy theorist with a record of producing such shit
Has it not occurred to you morons that it is an extremely convenient coincidence that this "information" has come to light at a time when the Government is in deep shit, with an unstable and warring leadership that, if is quite likely, will have to go to the polls yet again
If it does it is predicted that Labour will win THE NEXT ELECTION
'Bout time you people grew up and learned how British politics have always worked
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 04:41 AM

Dearlove is a rabid neoconservative who believes in roaming the world with mighty Western armies in order to knock democracy into countries not like us. A fellow well past his sell-by date, sadly. The Telegraph, that bastion of liberal thinking, wouldn't let me read past the first few lines unless I join something. Which I won't, so thank God for that!

Brexit, Iains...?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 04:45 AM

I was thinking yesterday that Sir Richard Dearlove has been playing a smarter political game than the politicians. Say Corbyn has sold secrets and you can expect to have to make a public apology. Stick to "there are questions to answer" and you are probably safe. There are questions to answer on everything from why the sky is blue to what idiot thought it a good idea to make such and such a road one way. "Having questions to answer" is so stunningly vague it says nothing and so is probably impossible to sue for libel, yet still somehow still encourages doubts

That article, on the other hand, could leave him open to letters from the lawyers, because he does make some factual charges that could be challenged.

I am not going to comment much on logical versus logistical. Cable's statement seems fine to me and as usual there are much bigger concerns than whether anyone used the perfect word. But yes, I was making a point. It was where will the line be drawn by each politician between self interest and national interest. It is worth keepong an eye on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 04:58 AM

It's not an order, Keith, just an impolite request :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 05:20 AM

"Logistically" was correct. "Logically" would have been wrong. Context is everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 05:23 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 04:34 AM
"No. It was Jeremy Corbyn according to the official records of the Czechoslovak communist era secret police, the StB, as reported by the BBC"
Utter crap
Corbyn was an unknown nonentity in the Labour party - one of many hundreds of thousand young people who visited the Eastern Bloc out of curiosity; if they had spent their time and money on grooming such people their system would have collapsed many decades ago

Is this the same non-entity who had already been elected to Haringey council in 1974?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 05:40 AM

Fer Chrissake, Nigel, councillors are two-a-penny. I could have walked on to Bude Town Council at the drop of a hat on a number of occasions and the local Labour Party organiser asked me to stand for Cornwall Council when I'd been a member for just a few weeks (I didn't, so don't bother looking me up). This country has tens of thousands of councillors.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 06:24 AM

He did "cavort" with a Czeck spy. He had at three meetings.
He sold no secrets. Jezza did not have access to any.
He was just being groomed for future use.

BBC yesterday,
"Nothing in Agent Dymic's descriptions of three meetings with the Labour MP - two in the House of Commons, one on Seven Sisters Road - suggest the StB ever regarded him as anything other than a potential source."

That is according to the actual official records of the Czechoslovak communist era secret police, the StB, as reported by the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43168245

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 06:29 AM

Dave,
It's not an order, Keith, just an impolite request :-)

You told me to "fuck off" and without the smiley you now add.
You have repeatedly shown your ignorance.
Just do not expect to be taken seriously, you sad man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 06:30 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 05:40 AM
Fer Chrissake, Nigel, councillors are two-a-penny.

As a non-believer, do you think you could find something of your own to use as a swearword? Or are you just deliberately offensive?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 06:37 AM

Well, I don't imagine everyone will agree, but Corbyn's speech was the speech of a leader, in my book. If nothing else - and there was plenty of 'else' - it challenges May to give much more than ambiguous platitudes in her speech at the end of the week.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 06:41 AM

"Is this the same non-entity who had already been elected to Haringey council in 1974?"
A Councillor - really headed for the big time then!!!
I must have known hundreds of them - a can name around half a dozen I have had drinks with over the last few years
You people are a joke - you really are
You want outside interference in British politics - try this - from a party that led the Brexit campaign
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/janice-atkinson-conservatives-tories-far-right-marine-le-pen-adam-holloway-ex-ukip-campaigning-a7771416.html
Or how about THIS
The Prime Minister bunged an extremist secratian Party with terrorist links on Billion Pounds of the British taxpayers money in order to bail her out of her own nause-ups and steerr Britain through the Brexit negotiations
Right wing Russian interference into Western politics has given us the most dangerous and unstable World leader we have ever seen in the despicable form of Donald Trump and our PM goes to the White House with her knickers in her handbag to kiss his arse
And you idiots witter on about some conspiricy theorists crap that echoes the worst of spy fiction - not even on the level of Le Carre or Deighton - more like Bulldog Drummond and Fu Manchu
You people really need to get into the real world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 06:44 AM

The 'fusk off' was intended to be without the smiley. It was the 'impolite request' that was vaguely humourous.

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

If I repeatedly show my ignorance then just ignore me as requested.
If I cannot be taken seriously then just ignore me as requested.
If you feel I am a sad man and you don't want to enter into any exchange with me then just fuck off as requested.

No skin off my nose.

Now, how about sticking to the point and providing some evidence of all the marvelous benefits that brexit will afford us?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 07:32 AM

"He did "cavort" with a Czeck spy. Was it a threesome? I thought he only cavorted with the abbopotomus.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3239322/Jeremy-Corbyn-Diane-Abbott-naked-romp-Cotswolds-field.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 07:36 AM

"You people really need to get into the real world"

What planet are you on today jimmie?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 07:48 AM

I seem to recall a story about John Major having had an affair with Edwina Currie. What two people do is entirely up to them, providing both are adults and capable of giving consent. Does it matter if they had an affair, not one jot to my mind. Nor does it matter if Corbyn and Abbott had an affair.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 08:23 AM

"What planet are you on today jimmie?"
And that's it - that't's your response to teh fact (not uncorroborated accusations) that the Government has put Britain in hock to right extremism - LePen, DUP, Trump...
Not just the limp-wristed right but th real oven-door-bangers like antisemitic fascists like LePen and frothing maniacs like Trump
What was your resonse again ?
""What planet are you on today jimmie?"
Whatever planet I'm on, it appears to be inhabited by adults
Grow uo
I've just watched Corbyn talking about The Customs Union - as statesmanlike and confident as anything I've seen in a while
One of the points arising from his speech was the comment that he probably had enough support from Tory and Labour Politicians to form a parliamentary majority on this issue
That's about how serious these "spying" claims are being taken by real-life politicians
You little band of flag-waggers are the ones who need to grow up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 11:31 AM

Jim,
A Councillor - really headed for the big time then!!!

He was an MP when he was meeting with the spy who cultivated him as a future source. The foreign spy who groomed him.

That's about how serious these "spying" claims are being taken by real-life politicians

He is not accused of spying. Just of being friendly with enemies of the country.

Dave,
It was the 'impolite request' that was vaguely humourous.

Nothing vaguely humorous in this abuse Dave.

17 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM
Keith. Fuck off.

19 Feb 18 - 11:51 AM
I will now put it as simply as I can. Fuck off.

23 Feb 18 - 05:14 AM
And which bit of fuck off is so difficult to understand?

25 Feb 18 - 02:15 PM
I am constantly astonished that some people still cannot get the gist of 'fuck off'.

26 Feb 18 - 06:44 AM
fuck off as requested.

Not nice Dave, and not even vaguely humorous.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 12:10 PM

"He was an MP when he was meeting with the spy who cultivated him as a future source."
This is all unproven bullshit Keith - many politicians at the time from all parties were friendly with Eastern European Countries who were "enemies of the country" only in the minds of those who chose to make them so - Britain never declared war on any of them though they may have disapproved ot their policies
It is an indication of the hypocrisy of politicians that some "friends" of Britain were pouring blazing petrol on the heads of Third-World peasants - you have always ignored that fact, which makes you a hyoocrite
You are now ignoring the fact that our present politicians are consorting with Parties with terrorist links, antisemitic racist fascists and war-mongering Presidents - which makes you an even greater hypocrite
****** "enemy of the country - now you really do sound like a bad Bulldog Drummond novel
You are a stereotype joke making you worthy of every posting Dave and everybody else has directed at you
A flag-wagging little Englander of the worst, small-minded kind
Please feel free to add that to Dave's list
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 12:11 PM

Of course, as we have Keith here this non-story will run and run. Just like the Labour antisemitism non-story, in a month or two's time Keith will still be prattling on about this long after the Daily Mail has dug up some new shock-horror story, maybe about the fact that Jezza has been using Sandinista-made nail clippers for decades or something. It's vulgar and fraudulent, Keith, as is you're persistence in keeping this irrelevance going in a brexit thread. I'll remember that next time you accuse someone of thread-hijacking.

Request denied, Nigel. You're a big boy now and you've heard a lot worse.

Now back to brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 12:11 PM

Impolite request was the vaguely humorous bit I was referring to as well know, Keith. Every man and his dog understood that it is a pun on 'polite request' but you being in need of the argument chose to misinterpret even that.

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

Fuck off was not intended to be humorous but a fair indication of how pissed off we all are with your anally retentive shenanigans.

Now, a bit more politely, will you please fuck off and stop mithering me.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 12:24 PM

Your, not you're. Grr. That wasn't me!

I remember Billy Connolly at the London Palladium in 1977 spending the first three quarters of an hour of his show forensically examining the use of the expression "fuck off." One advantage of it, he mused, was the fact that it was so certain and direct. You couldn't mistake the sentiment behind it. He'd never read in a book, for example, anything like "Fuck off, he hinted..."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 12:41 PM

Are the mudrats queuing for time out on the naughty step?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 12:41 PM

"Now back to brexit."
Drink to that Steve
As much as you feed these trolls, they still come back fro more
Move on - this is taking longer than may and her Mayflies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 01:22 PM

and now for something completely different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYRH5Gn2Wbg

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 01:28 PM

ou've got the right territory for a vegetable Iains
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 01:37 PM

Good move by Jeremy. He has to keep hammering home that he's doing this in the interests of the country. That's his best riposte to the panicky accusations of brexiteers that he's betraying his voters//the people, etc. The fact is that half our trade is done with the EU, our financial services sector is intimately tied in with Europe and there's no queue of big-hitters outside the EU desperate to do incredible deals with an ailing economy. Time for brexiteers to get real, and for Labour to take the lead on keeping us in the single market

You're dead right about the troll, Jim. He's posted fourteen posts in a row in this thread now without mentioning brexit once.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 01:44 PM

Depends what you mean by naughty, Iains. If you mean being open and honest if somewhat robust, I will happily admit to that. If you mean being devious and conniving with a generous measure of trolling then I shall let other people be the judge of who fits that bill.

Still nothing to say on brexit?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 01:47 PM

Well, this US negotiator isn't rushing to make a deal, unless we concede everything

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 01:48 PM

That is on a paywall site, but the gist is clear enough from the bit you can read for free.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 02:02 PM

Jim,
This is all unproven bullshit Keith
It is proven by the Secret Police records Jim.

"enemies of the country" only in the minds of those who chose to make them so - Britain never declared war on any of them
The Cold War Jim, when the Soviet Block planned and trained to invade us and we trained and planned to try and stop them.

Steve,
It's vulgar and fraudulent, Keith,
It is a true story that you tried to deny. I quoted BBC not the Mail.

Dave,
Now, a bit more politely, will you please fuck off and stop mithering me.
No.
I will continue to point out any false statements you make.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 03:02 PM

"The Cold War Jim, when the Soviet Block [sic] planned and trained to invade us and we trained and planned to try and stop them."

Absolute mythology. Laughable bullshit. There was never any evidence that the Soviet bloc intended to invade us. They were way too weak militarily for a start and they knew it. And so did we, but the Thatcher/Reagan axis wasn't telling. It was a 1984-style Orwellian lie intended to keep us onside.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 03:03 PM

"It is proven by the Secret Police records Jim."
They droppedf you a line to give you this evidence did they ?
These right wing led countries are now part of the Capitalist world - Russia has even attempted to interfere in British and American politics to ascertai that they elect right wing governments - forged records would be a formaility
"The Cold War Jim, when the Soviet Block planned and trained to invade us and we trained and planned to try and stop them."
Utter bollocks - you really are beyond a joke
Nobody would have dared invade anybody with nuclear weapons you moron - that as the idea of the "nuclear deterrent" - he clue is in the name
This is moronic cold war stuff
We were fed this shit for decades - some people started building nuclear shelters - and yet - not a smidgen of evidence of an invasion - never at any time
It was all propaganda bullshit that only a few believed
They even satarised it in films like, "The Russians are Coming" and "John Goldfarb, Please Come Home"
While you and your fellow Little Englanders were crouching behind your aspidistras, some of us got off our arse and went to ee what was happening for ourselves
My generation - political and non-political went out to see for ourselves instead of swallowing this crap
Me and a mate hitched right through Europe - France, Germany, right through to Czechoslovakia - we got there the morning the Russians re-opened the border and spent a couple of fascinating weeks in Prague, arguing with Russian soldiers, meeting Vietnamese soldiers on leave, sitting the tha cafes with students discussing what had happened - a close up view without the interference of "secret police" or "communist agents"
One year we went to Hungary to meet folk song collectors and old singers who had been recorded by Kodaly - then on to Yugoslavia and accross to the island of Krk
Another year - Bulgaria - we never made it to Transylvania as we wanted to
I prepared to go to Cuba on a cargo ship, but a family tragedy forced me to cancel
You sound like a Joew McCarthy propaganda directive every time yo put finger to keyboard
You morons have swallowed all that shit wholesale without ever bothering to question any of it
And still you refuse to comment on the traitorous nature of this government who pays huge bribes to terrorist linked parties, a Brexit decision pushed though by a party now linked to fascist LePen, and a prime minister who is kissing the arse of the most unstable and dangerous politician in the world
And that't the flag you salute - you ought to be ashamed of yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 03:09 PM

Thanks for that, DMcG. So, unless we accept the yanks' lower food safety standards and, presumably, their GM shit, they won't do a deal with us. Wow. Now that's what I call "taking back control!"

Brexiteers awake!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 04:38 PM

Feel free to point out any false statements you like Keith. Maybe next time you may even attempt to disprove one rather than just saying 'prove it'. If I claim anything as fact you can be assured it is factual. If I have an opinion on anything, it is my own honest opinion that I have no need to justify to you or anyone. Not that anyone else gets their knickers in a twist over my opinion.

Now, anything to say about brexit, how it is being handled by the shower of shits masquerading as a government of how our descendants are going to view the brectums that led the country into this mess?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 04:53 PM

Steve,
Absolute mythology. Laughable bullshit. There was never any evidence that the Soviet bloc intended to invade us.

Yes there was.

Jim,
"It is proven by the Secret Police records Jim."
They droppedf you a line to give you this evidence did they ?

Read my link. The BBC journalist studied them first hand.

Dave,
If I claim anything as fact you can be assured it is factual.

Brexit will change our policy on refugees and asylum seekers.
False claim. Brexit has no bearing on either.
Tariff savings never lead to lower prices.
False claim. Of course they do.

Now, anything to say about brexit,

I have expressed my views and have nothing to add until something changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 05:11 PM

"Yes there was." Great answer, Keith! So that nails it then!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 05:15 PM

I do find it rather bizarre that someone is so disillusioned that they still think, after being told numerous times to the contrary, that anyone gives a flying **** what they think.

What a sad and lonely little individual that person must be.

I know that I (basically a decent human being) should feel very sorry for him but for the life of me I can't raise sufficient interest.

Does anyone think it may help if we typed in capitals just for him?

YOU ARE A BORING LITTLE ****, OTHER PEOPLE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK OR WHAT YOU POST.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 08:05 PM

From the Guardian, reporting on Jeremy's speech:

In a question and answer session after the speech.....

...Corbyn argued that seeking fresh deals with China or the US was not something Labour wanted to pursue, as that would not compensate for the loss of trade with EU countries.

"Both the US and China have weaker standards and regulations that would risk dragging Britain into a race to the bottom on vital protections and rights at work," he said, arguing against a TTIP-style deal that could force open parts of the NHS or any new rules that would mean asking "the British public to eat chlorinated chicken."

Looks like China and the US won't be falling over themselves either...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 08:11 PM

"Read my link. The BBC journalist studied them first hand."
Yeah - yeah - yeah !!
We know al about that
Your refusal to respond to everyting that has been put up makes clear wjat you are - a "reds under the bed nutcase who believes everything he wants to believe and rejects everything that doesn't conform with his right-wing hysteria - a Dr Strangelove in real life - I fine upstanding example of British patriotism
Your only contribution here is to underline the veracity of your spy-thriller claims about Corbyn - and to confirm your extremism
So long - and thanks for the fish, as Douglas Adams once said
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 02:16 AM

Now that's what I call "taking back control!"

"Taking back control" was always a Newspeak sort of phrase. With a few exceptions, those who incline to the Tory view actually mean 'relinquish control to the market'. Actually controlling things smacks too much of planned economies for most post-"One Nation" Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 02:53 AM

Sixty squared. Post 3600

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 03:18 AM

I have expressed my views and have nothing to add until something changes.

I have also expressed my views Keith but somehow you seem to think you can get away with claiming my views are expressed as facts and need to be proven whereas your views do not need any further discussion.

My view is that you are a hypocrite of the highest order and the most dishonest and devious poster on this forum by far. Now fuck off.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 03:29 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 03:09 PM
Thanks for that, DMcG. So, unless we accept the yanks' lower food safety standards and, presumably, their GM shit, they won't do a deal with us. Wow. Now that's what I call "taking back control!"
Brexiteers awake!

I read the link, but it must have changed since you read it.
Warren Maruyama, who developed the North Atlantic Trade Agreement (NAFTA) under President George H.W Bush, said the UK faced a “big problem” if it went into future trade talks while bound by EU regulations on food standards.

“Under our system Congress gets the ultimate say and if we do a free trade agreement it has to pass the Congress,” Mr Maruyama told the Telegraph.

“If American agriculture is opposed to a UK free trade agreement, I wouldn’t say it’s dead on arrival but it’s pretty close. It would be a serious hurdle.”

It doesn't say we can't have food standards, or that we must accept those of America. It says about continuing to be bound by EU restrictions.
Once clear of those, we will still be able to choose what we buy. As long as labelling is clear you will be able to choose not to buy chicken that has been chlorine washed (even if it is safer than the EU produced equivalent)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 03:47 AM

Will he have his cake and eat it!
Watch this space!

https://order-order.com/2018/02/26/corbyn-join-us-supporting-option-new-cake/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 04:05 AM

"I have expressed my views and have nothing to add until something changes."
Promises, promises - oooooh, you men are all alike!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 04:21 AM

What a pity then that we won't be able to ask the soon-to-be chlorine-washed chicken whether it'd felt safe during its short, presumably less hygienic life (why else would its corpse - in the non-archaic sense - need to be chlorine-washed?)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 04:27 AM

Dave,
Now fuck off.

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 04:30 AM

Steve,
"Yes there was (evidence)." Great answer, Keith! So that nails it then!

Yes it does.
Would yo like me to share some of the evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 04:55 AM

From: Steve Shaw

What a pity then that we won't be able to ask the soon-to-be chlorine-washed chicken whether it'd felt safe during its short, presumably less hygienic life (why else would its corpse - in the non-archaic sense - need to be chlorine-washed?)

As the linked article goes on to say:
But Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, is in favour, pointing out that British consumers are already happy to eat salads that have been treated with chlorine. "There are no health reasons why you couldn’t eat chicken that had been washed in chlorinated water," he told the international trade select committee last year. "Most of the salads in our supermarkets are rinsed in chlorinated water and in terms of reduction of campylobacter bacteria food poisoning, the United States actually has in general much lower levels of campylobacter food poisoning than many countries in Europe."

Perhaps you should also be concerned about the standard of life the vegetables led.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 05:03 AM

Seriously, Keith, that is more like it. Keep your responses to me as short as the last one and I am sure we will get on.

Meanwhile, back on the ranch...

Brexit is like 'giving up a three-course meal for a packet of crisps', says former top Government trade official

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 05:34 AM

""I have expressed my views and have nothing to add until something changes."

Is that a direct quote from corbyn? As we travel on the road to "milk and honey".

https://www.ft.com/content/fb397f44-e64b-11e7-97e2-916d4fbac0da
The more astute are not buying in to his potential wondrous world. They deem it a nightmare

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 05:54 AM

It seems that to read what the "more astute" are saying you have to pay Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 05:59 AM

Maybe that explains why so many on here quote the Guardian: they don't charge for their content.
Unfortunately it doesn't make for balanced reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:02 AM

Unfortunately it doesn't make for balanced reading.

And the Daily Heil does?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:08 AM

Well I grow my own salads and veg strictly organically, Nigel. That requires large inputs of organic matter, in my case largely my home-made compost (I have a couple of tons or more ready to dig in as soon as the weather warms up a bit - I don't spread it in autumn or winter as I have very porous sandy soil prone to leaching in winter rains. I spread thick layers of grass clippings on in the autumn and the compost about now). I've been known to collect horse manure from the surrounding fields to stack for a month or two. As my heaps are out in the open they will be visited by all manner of insects and other invertebrates, birds, amphibians, rabbits, voles and mice, and never a year goes by without grass snakes laying their eggs in there. I love them all, but, with the best will in the world, they poo, wee, die and rot in there and in move the fungi and bacteria. My veg grows healthily, abundantly and tastily, but I wash them before consumption, especially if they're not going to be cooked. In many cases, the washing of veg for commercial sale is strictly unnecessary, but the supermarkets have educated us into thinking that veg must always look perfect and without a speck of dirt in sight. I get much of the veg I end up buying from the local shop where I buy the Guardian. He sells the lamb from his own fields, situated between his house and mine, and he sells fresh Cornish fish and free-range eggs and bacon from less than ten miles away. The carrots and spuds are unwashed (therefore longer-lasting if I don't use them straight away) and don't come in sweaty plastic bags. The reason we don't have to dose chickens heavily in chlorine is that we provide relatively high standards of hygiene during their lives. And I don't want my chicken tainted with chlorine, thank you, any more than I want my poached egg to taste of vinegar. .

Treated or untreated sewage sludge is widely used on arable land. This is an excellent use for what would otherwise constitute a major disposal problem. The sludge provides the major elements need for soil fertility and the organic matter improves soil structure and water retention. There are strict regulations concerning its prior treatment and use and risks to consumers are low, but, even so, knowing all this, washing veg is probably a good idea, I'd say. The fact that you see veg in supermarkets that's been washed is in no way an indicator on how well grown it was. On the other hand, a chlorinated chicken should arouse your suspicions about the way it spent its life.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:15 AM

"Unfortunately it doesn't make for balanced reading."

Nigel, one of your cohorts quotes from Guido Fawkes on a regular basis.

Pot, kettle and black don't even enter the equation. Are you going to suggest to him that he uses a less rabid source.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:18 AM

There are some very good arguments for washing chicken with Chlorine solutions. The downside is that if it is assumed that the chlorine treatment is all embracing, then standards of cleanliness elsewhere in the process may not be as thoroughly policed.
"Under current EU rules, the chlorine wash is classed as a processing aid rather than an ingredient and so wouldn’t have to be declared on the packaging." The European Food Safety Authority has found no conclusive evidence that antimicrobial chemicals used in food processing contribute to antibiotic resistance.
It is just another bleat from remainers. Perhaps we are all supposed to become veggietwats like corbyn of the allotment.

https://theconversation.com/chlorine-washed-chicken-qanda-food-safety-expert-explains-why-us-poultry-is-banned-in-the-eu-81921


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4462680/

It seems a specious argument to me.
I would prefer more policing of contaminated meat sold to unwitting consumers and the prevention of the substitution of hoss for prime beef.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:27 AM

From: Dave the Gnome

Unfortunately it doesn't make for balanced reading.

And the Daily Heil does?

Assuming you mean the Daily Mail, then no, it doesn't provide balanced reading either.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:27 AM

The Guardian is owned by the Scott Trust, not by a mega-rich foreign proprietor who sanctions phone-hacking, or by billionaire brothers who keep their dough offshore to avoid tax, or by the tax-avoiding Rothermere Estate, nor is it edited by a mega-rich, dyspeptic, sexist bully whose morning meetings are known as the Vagina Monologues because of his penchant for calling everybody cunts at the top of his voice. The Guardian allows comment from the full spectrum of political opinion. Its reports, unlike those in the Mail, are solid news presented in a measured way, not news mixed with veiled tendentiousness and right-wing, populist bile. A long way from perfect, of course, but they try. Nigel, singling out the Guardian for attack by a man such as yourself who affects erudition is a bit puzzling. If you think the Guardian lacks balance, I should be interested in your take on the Mail, Telegraph and Express.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:32 AM

May I remind people of the article concerning food hygiene standards that I posted on the 21st. If these are what we can expect where we to buy from the USA I, for one, would be deeply concerned. I do write as a former member of the Royal Institute of Public Health and Hygiene.

Here is the article from the Guardian in full, it is well worth taking the time to read it.


                  THE ARTICLE FROM THE GUARDIAN

Shocking hygiene failings have been discovered in some of the US’s biggest meat plants, as a new analysis reveals that as many as 15% (one in seven) of the US population suffers from foodborne illnesses annually.

A joint investigation by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism (TBIJ) and the Guardian found that hygiene incidents are at numbers that experts described as “deeply worrying”.

US campaigners are calling once again for the closure of a legal loophole that allows meat with salmonella to be sold in the human supply chain, and also warn about the industry’s push to speed up production in the country’s meat plants. And UK campaigners warn that the UK could be flooded with “dirty meat” if a US trade deal is signed post-Brexit.


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The unpublished US- government records highlight numerous specific incidents including:

Diseased poultry meat that had been condemned found in containers used to hold edible food products;
Pig carcasses piling up on the factory floor after an equipment breakdown, leading to contamination with grease, blood and other filth;
Meat destined for the human food chain found riddled with faecal matter and abscesses filled with pus;
High-power hoses being used to clean dirty floors next to working production lines containing food products;
Factory floors flooded with dirty water after drains became blocked by meat parts and other debris;
Dirty chicken, soiled with faeces or having been dropped on the floor, being put back on to the production line after being rinsed with dilute chlorine.
All of the reported breaches resulted in immediate remedial action with no risk posed to consumers, according to the companies involved.

But campaigners warned that other violations may go undetected. Tony Corbo, senior lobbyist with Food and Water Watch, said: “While the inspectors are able to cite the plants for hundreds of violations per week, I am confident that they are not catching every instance of unsafe practices being committed in these plants.”

Meat hygiene inspectors interviewed by the Guardian agreed, saying fast line speeds and other pressures in some plants meant it was “inevitable” that some breaches slipped through the net.

The findings are worrying, according to Prof Erik Millstone, a food safety expert at Sussex University, “because of the risks of spreading infectious pathogens from carcass to carcass, and between portions of meat. The rates at which outbreaks of infectious food poisoning occur in the US are significantly higher than in the UK, or the EU, and poor hygiene in the meat supply chain is [a] leading cause of food poisoning in the US.”

Black bacterial colonies of salmonella. Food poisoning outbreaks are much higher than in the UK.
Facebook Twitter Pinterest Black bacterial colonies of salmonella. Food poisoning outbreaks are much higher than in the UK. Photograph: Chansom Pantip/Getty Images/iStockphoto
The Bureau and the Guardian obtained previously unpublished documents relating to 47 meat plants across the US. Some of the documents relate to certain companies, including Pilgrim’s Pride, one of the US’s biggest poultry producers, and Swift Pork. Although not a comprehensive portrait of the sector - there are around 6,000 US plants regularly inspected by Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS) - the documents provide a snapshot of issues rarely detailed in public which has rung alarm bells with campaigners in both the US and UK.

“The US meat industry has a responsibility to clean up its act,” said David Wallinga, senior health officer at the Natural Resources Defence Council, which obtained some of the documents. He said the Pilgrim’s Pride records detailed “numerous food safety violations.”

Kerry McCarthy, former UK shadow environment minister and Labour MP, called for urgent reassurances from both the UK Food Standards Agency (FSA) and “the top of government” that standards would not be allowed to slip as trade negotiations with the US get underway.

“We cannot allow this to be a race to the bottom. We should insist the US raises its standards, and guarantees food safety, before we are prepared to allow in US meat imports,” she said. McCarthy has written to the environment secretary, Michael Gove, and Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to raise the matter.

The documents seen by the Bureau and Guardian do not reveal the full numbers of non-compliance reports across the whole sector. However, one dataset covering 13 large red meat and poultry plants over two years (2015-17) shows an average of more than 150 violations a week, and 15,000 violations over the entire period. Thousands of similar violations were recorded at 10 pork-producing plants over a five-year period up until 2016, further documents show.


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Another batch of previously unpublished documents shows frequent failings at 24 plants operated by Pilgrim’s Pride who recently bought the British chicken giant Moy Park. The company slaughters 34 million birds each week and produces one in five of the chickens in the country.

More than 16,000 non-compliance reports on Pilgrim’s Pride operations detail 36,612 individual regulatory violations - an average of 1,464 a month - at the 24 plants during a 25-month period between 2014 and 2016.

Pilgrim’s Pride chickens on display at a supermarket.
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Pilgrim’s Pride chickens on display at a supermarket. Photograph: Kristoffer Tripplaar / Alamy/Alamy
In one incident, diseased meat – condemned from entering the human food chain – was placed in a container meant for edible product. An inspector discovered “carcasses of poultry showing evidence of septicemic disease ... carcasses showing evidence of having died from other causes than slaughter ... guts of carcasses, [and] poultry carcasses with heads attached.” He requested that the condemned items be removed. A similar incident was recorded some days later.

One inspector saw chicken drumsticks piling up on the floor, and instructed workers to pick them up “to be reconditioned with chlorinated water.” Again, a similar incident had occurred previously. In another incident in a bagging department, 36 shrink-wrapped whole birds were found scattered on the floor. An inspector noted: “in my presence the establishments began initiating their corrective action by picking up all affected product off the floor ... to be carried to the establishment’s designated wash station to be thoroughly rinsed off.”

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Meat soiled with faecal matter was also recorded, with an inspector noting “... I observed a poultry intestine in the liver bin. The intestine was approximately 6.5 inches long and had visible faeces oozing out both ends.” The incident resulted in the livers being condemned from the human food chain.

At another Pilgrim’s Pride plant, the records reveal how deficient equipment led to a carcass becoming contaminated with faeces. “I observed one of my 10 test birds with a spot of faecal matter on the exterior of the right thigh. The spot of faecal [sic] was … brownish green in colour and had a pasty consistency,” an inspector notes. The affected bird was “retained by management for review then sent to reprocessing for reconditioning with chlorinated water.” Similar carcass contamination had been recorded before.

Internal FSIS records also highlight numerous violations at meat plants producing pork. In an incident recorded at a plant run by Swift Pork, owned by meat giant JBS, 48 pig carcasses were found to have fallen on the floor because of defective equipment, leading to contamination with “black trolley grease, floor grime and bloody smears”. The records noted: “The line was stopped for about 15 minutes. The carcasses were sent to be trimmed first then steam vacuumed with 180F water.”

On another occasion, an employee cleaned the factory floor with meat products on an adjacent conveyor belt, creating a mist that could contaminate the meat. “This mist is contaminated by the inedible debris and ... comes into contact with edible product,” an inspector observed.

Pigs are seen in a factory farm December 2003 in northern Missouri.
Facebook Twitter Pinterest Pigs are seen in a factory farm December 2003 in northern Missouri. Photograph: Daniel Pepper/Getty Images
In a separate incident, a pig’s head was found to have partially covered a drain, leading to “bloody waste water filling the area”. This and another blockage caused by a buildup of skin led to dirty water flooding other areas. “Because of the plugged drains, an insanitary condition was created; the bloody water in the walkway could be splashed and carried throughout the kill floor after employees walked through the puddle,” an inspector wrote.

In a different part of the factory, inspectors found a stainless steel handwash sink “plugged and approximately one-quarter full of standing bloody water with pieces of fat and meat. Production employees use this sink to clean and sanitise their hands and gloves. This creates an insanitary condition.”

In a statement, JBS, which owns Pilgrim’s and Swift Pork, said all of the violations recorded were “immediately addressed” and that consumers were never put at risk. “The US meat and poultry sector is one of the most highly regulated industries in America,” said Al Almanza, JBS’s global head of food safety and quality assurance, and former head of FSIS for 39 years. “Non-compliance reports are issued by USDA [United States Department of Agriculture] inspection personnel to document when an establishment has not met a specific regulatory requirement. However, the vast majority of non-compliance issues are addressed immediately and have no impact on food safety.”

“All of the documented incidents regarding JBS [Swift Pork] and Pilgrim’s were immediately addressed by our facilities. None of these incidents put anyone at risk or resulted in any adulterated product released into commerce. Food safety is achieved by implementing processes that consistently detect and correct issues before products are released into commerce. Our team at JBS and Pilgrim’s is committed to the highest food safety standards and we partner with USDA each and every day to ensure that consumers can enjoy safe and quality products with confidence.”

Salmonella and other foodborne illnesses
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The US has shockingly high levels of foodborne illness, according to a new analysis by UK pressure group Sustain. It says that annually, around 14.7% (48 million people) of the US population is estimated to suffer from an illness, compared to around 1.5% (1 million) in the UK. In the US, 128,000 are hospitalised, and 3,000 die each year of foodborne diseases.

One bug, salmonella, causes around 1m illnesses per year in the US, while in the UK the numbers of officially recorded incidents is relatively low, with just under 10,000 laboratory confirmed cases in 2016. However, unreported incidents could substantially increase those numbers. Salmonella takes hold on farms and is found in the guts of poultry and livestock: farm animals and birds can become contaminated with faeces containing the bacteria during transport to abattoirs, where slaughter and processing procedures can also spread it.

Kath Dalmeny, chief executive of Sustain, said the figures underscored concerns about future US-UK trade deals: “The US has already warned us that we will need to lower our food standards in exchange for a quick trade deal, but we need to fight this hard. They are desperate to sell us their chlorine-washed chicken, but we know chlorine and other unpalatable treatments can mask dirty meat, low hygiene standards and poor animal welfare, which the UK consumer will not stand for.

“In recent years, the UK meat, dairy and egg industries have improved food safety; so we should all be alarmed about any trade deal that opens up our market to products that undermine this progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:50 AM

The Guardian is owned by the Scott Trust, not by a mega-rich foreign proprietor who sanctions phone-hacking, or by billionaire brothers who keep their dough offshore to avoid tax, or by the tax-avoiding Rothermere Estate, nor is it edited by a mega-rich, dyspeptic, sexist bully whose morning meetings are known as the Vagina Monologues because of his penchant for calling everybody cunts at the top of his voice. The Guardian allows comment from the full spectrum of political opinion. Its reports, unlike those in the Mail, are solid news presented in a measured way, not news mixed with veiled tendentiousness and right-wing, populist bile. A long way from perfect, of course, but they try. Nigel, singling out the Guardian for attack by a man such as yourself who affects erudition is a bit puzzling. If you think the Guardian lacks balance, I should be interested in your take on the Mail, Telegraph and Express.

I have already commented on The Daily Mail.

Other papers are also weighted in one way or another, but the Guardian gets a lot of quotes on here partly because it is free. (the online version). That is the reason for singling it out.

Which paper are you trying to describe: nor is it edited by a mega-rich, dyspeptic, sexist bully whose morning meetings are known as the Vagina Monologues because of his penchant for calling everybody cunts at the top of his voice as I don't recognise this description, and a search for 'vagina monologoues' brings up only the monologues of that title?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 07:01 AM

the Guardian gets a lot of quotes on here partly because it is free. (the online version). That is the reason for singling it out.

The Daily Heil and Guido are also free but you din't mention those. You singled out the Guardian because, in the main, it disagrees with your views and those of your fellow brexiteers. But the strange this is that the only source for any good news about brexit came from the Guardian in a quote linked by Iains. Even if he did initially get the link wrong!

Oh, and the article that started this discussion about biased sources was linked from the FT that it is not free. It has however been accused having pro-European bias by one of your fellows.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 07:21 AM

"Other papers are also weighted in one way or another, but the Guardian gets a lot of quotes on here partly because it is free. (the online version). That is the reason for singling it out."

Not so Nigel, The Manchester Guardian was delivered to our house when I was child back in the 50's. I have been reading it in all that time as I find it to be a reasonably balanced newspaper with little of the hype or even downright lies of many other newspapers, like the Mail, Express and the Sun.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 07:26 AM

Correct, Dave.

Paul Dacre, Nigel. And would you care to tell us in what ways you consider that the Guardian fails to provide lack of balance, or are you just saying it because it doesn't support your party?

As for this:

"The European Food Safety Authority has found no conclusive evidence that antimicrobial chemicals used in food processing contribute to antibiotic resistance.
It is just another bleat from remainers."

Only antibiotic misuse, not "antimicrobial chemicals used in food processing," can lead to antibiotic resistance. No remainer has ever bleated any such thing as you allege. As a well-educated scientist, unlike your good self if crackpot statement of this sort are anything to go by, I'm happy to clear this up for you.

This article that you linked provides an excellent summary of why we should never accept chlorine-washed chickens from the States. There is next to no regulation of welfare standards for chickens there.

https://theconversation.com/chlorine-washed-chicken-qanda-food-safety-expert-explains-why-us-poultry-is-banned-in-the-eu-81921

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 07:34 AM

" I have been reading it in all that time as I find it to be a reasonably balanced newspaper with little of the hype or even downright lies of many other newspapers, like the Mail, Express and the Sun."

OPINION NOT FACT!

Raggy you are in fine company for masquerading opinion as fact. I know an ex teacher that does it constantly!

The mail is often quoted because of all the online papers it has by far the greater number of articles.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 07:34 AM

Yes, the FT is a bit of a problem for brexiteers. It's the Anna Soubry/Ken Clarke among newspapers. A bit too Tory but always in the remain camp. Still, what do these finance and business insiders know? Take back control! Yeah! Foreigners out! Let's do deals with the newest superpower dictatorship!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 07:38 AM

The Mail is often quoted BY YOU, Iains, because it provides you with the succour of confirmation bias. And bias is definitely the operative word when it comes to that scurrilous rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 07:42 AM

And when someone presages their statement with "I find it to be...", what follows is clearly intended to be an expressed opinion, not a statement of fact, clear to everyone in the English-speaking sector of the planet except you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 07:44 AM

Not opinion Iains, an accepted truth that has stood the test of time, unlike the scurrilous rags often quoted on here as "news" items.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 08:05 AM

Scurrilous! A wonderful word that trips lightly off the tongue.
Describes shaw perfectly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 08:06 AM

Only antibiotic misuse, not "antimicrobial chemicals used in food processing," can lead to antibiotic resistance. No remainer has ever bleated any such thing as you allege. As a well-educated scientist, unlike your good self if crackpot statement of this sort are anything to go by, I'm happy to clear this up for you.

Which of us alleged that that was a remainer stance? Or are you just setting up another straw man argument?

Having recently corrected Iains an his use of 'naïf' as a plural, you may wish to reconsider the following comment: As a well-educated scientist, unlike your good self if crackpot statement of this sort are anything to go by, I'm happy to clear this up for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 08:09 AM

Still nothing useful to add then, Nigel?

How about a comment on Steve's linked article on chlorine washed chicken or my link on the latest comments by Liam Fox?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 08:12 AM

Fact:a thing that is known or proved to be true.

"Not opinion Iains, an accepted truth that has stood the test of time"

As I, and others dispute the statement is merely subjective opinion.
Let's be 'aving your proof as shaw would say.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 08:18 AM

OK have a look at this for starters.

Link No 1

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 08:21 AM

Then have a look at this:

Link No 2

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 08:25 AM

Then compare with:

Link No 3

Note the Mail has a STRONG conservative bias and a poor track record with Fact Checkers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 08:32 AM

From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 08:09 AM
Still nothing useful to add then, Nigel?

How about a comment on Steve's linked article on chlorine washed chicken or my link on the latest comments by Liam Fox?

I've already commented on Steve's link. I seem to have read more of it than he did.
I haven't seen your link to Liam Fox's comments (I went back two pages just in case)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 08:33 AM

"Only antibiotic misuse, not "antimicrobial chemicals used in food processing," can lead to antibiotic resistance. No remainer has ever bleated any such thing as you allege. As a well-educated scientist, unlike your good self if crackpot statement of this sort are anything to go by, I'm happy to clear this up for you."

Well my foetid little friend I will give the entire quote:
However, the European Food Safety Authority has found no conclusive evidence that antimicrobial chemicals used in food processing contribute to antibiotic resistance.

I do believe their scientific credentials are way ahead of yours. The only one guilty of crackpot statements is yourself. But, we all know, there ain't nuthin unusual in that!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 08:43 AM

It would seem that neither Iains or Nigel have the stamina to read the article I posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 08:57 AM

I read the article.
I saw nothing worthy of comment in it, that would relate to Brexit.
I note that Raggytash has also only managed a two line comment, mainly about his past experience, rather than about the content.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 09:00 AM

You obviously missed the line in the opening paragraph:

"And UK campaigners warn that the UK could be flooded with “dirty meat” if a US trade deal is signed post-Brexit."

A direct correlation to the Brexit debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 09:03 AM

My apologies, Nigel. I should have said the comments of Liam Fox's top advisor.

Brexit is like 'giving up a three-course meal for a packet of crisps', says former top Government trade official

I am sure you will find it now.

On the subject of Liam Fox, all you did was quote him saying that chlorine washed chicken was safe to eat, which it undoubtedly is, but you made no comment on the conditions that the chickens are kept in. Not surprising really as the typical Tory does seem to care more for profit than welfare.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 09:09 AM

I prefer to read original articles. They rely upon facts - not spin.
Where would remoaner be without the spin?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 09:10 AM

Er, that was outside your quoted bit actually, Iains. Your speech marks ended just before that bit about antimicrobial doodah, which made that bit appear to be part of your own remarks, which then ended with your bleating remainers thingie. Whatever. Whoever wrote it was seriously misinformed. Treating food with antimicrobials during processing has no impact on antibiotic resistance whatsoever. Nowt to do with it. Antibiotics are used on living animals, not dead bodies, so antibiotic resistance don't come into it. Cooking a chicken in the oven kills microbes on it, so cooking is antimicrobial. Maybe we should all stop cooking food for fear of engendering antibiotic resistance then, extrapolating from the statement of your source (wot wasn't you, so you tell us). Of course, I'm perfectly happy for you to pass off the bad science to someone else. But bad science it was. And you quoted it as if you thought it was OK. It isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 09:22 AM

You obviously missed the line in the opening paragraph:

"And UK campaigners warn that the UK could be flooded with “dirty meat” if a US trade deal is signed post-Brexit."

Actually the third paragraph, but never mind.

More Project Fear based on: UK campaigners warn that the UK could be flooded with “dirty meat” if a US trade deal is signed post-Brexit
We would only be 'flooded with dirty meat' if we were to accept it. A US/UK Trade Deal cannot force the country to accept, nor individuals to buy, such produce.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 09:22 AM

One for Keith, shamelessly off-topic (but used by the Tories and the Mail to divert us away from bad-news brexit). From Ben Bradley, Tory MP:

On 19 February 2018 I made a seriously defamatory statement on my Twitter account, ‘Ben Bradley MP (bbradleymp), about Jeremy Corbyn, alleging he sold British secrets to communist spies. I have since deleted the defamatory tweet.

I have agreed to pay an undisclosed substantial sum of money to a charity of his choice, and I will also pay his legal costs.

I fully accept that my statement was wholly untrue and false. I accept that I caused distress and upset to Jeremy Corbyn by my untrue and false allegations, suggesting he had betrayed his country by collaborating with foreign spies. I am very sorry for publishing this untrue and false statement and I have no hesitation in offering my unreserved and unconditional apology to Jeremy Corbyn for the distress I have caused him.

The legs have dropped off...The fat lady has sung...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 09:24 AM

We'll have to buy it from the EU instead then, won't we, Nigel? With added tariffs...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 09:41 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 09:24 AM
We'll have to buy it from the EU instead then, won't we, Nigel? With added tariffs...

Apart from the fact that I doubt if the EU will be able to provide us with US meat, when will you understand that there will only be additional tariffs (on our purchases) if we choose to impose them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 09:52 AM

EU meat from the EU Nigel, not US meat through the EU.

The EU may deem it fit to apply tariffs to such transactions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 10:05 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 09:52 AM

EU meat from the EU Nigel, not US meat through the EU.

The EU may deem it fit to apply tariffs to such transactions.

Keep trying. If it is EU meat, and we are buying it from the EU, then it is NOT the EU which decides whether to apply tariffs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 10:10 AM

Never heard of export tariffs then Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 10:19 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 09:10 AM
Whatever. Whoever wrote it was seriously misinformed. Treating food with antimicrobials during processing has no impact on antibiotic resistance whatsoever. Nowt to do with it. Antibiotics are used on living animals, not dead bodies, so antibiotic resistance don't come into it.

The above from our "well-educated scientist/biologist".

But it is not the animals/meat which are the target of antibiotics it is the microbials (bacteria etc.) The fact that the host animal is dead doesn't prevent any microbials present from building resistance to the antibiotics used. (assuming they are not all successfully killed)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 10:26 AM

"Your speech marks ended just before that bit about antimicrobial doodah, which made that bit appear to be part of your own remarks, which then ended with your bleating remainers thingie"

well now you know better , you silly little lad. The actual author of the article is The Scientific Panel on Biological Hazards (BIOHAZ)

"microorganisms on poultry carcasses (EFSA, 2005b).
The BIOHAZ Panel concluded that the use of substance(s) for decontaminating treatments will be
regarded efficacious when any reduction of the prevalence and/or numbers of pathogenic target
pathogenic microorganisms is statistically significant when compared to the control (e.g. water) and,
at the same time, this reduction has a positive impact on reduction of human illness cases

(EFSA,
2008a). On the one hand efficacy depends on a range of factors such as concentration, contact time, temperature and mode of application, the microbial load of the surface and other conditions of application.
In addition, concern has recently been raised about the potential for microorganism(s) to develop resistance to substances used for decontamination of carcasses. In most cases, such resistance could
be developed following the improper use or storage of the substances resulting in a decrease in theireffectiveness (EFSA, 2008a).
The BIOHAZ Panel concluded that despite a long history of use, there are currently no published data to conclude that the application of the four substances - chlorine dioxide, acidified sodium chlorite,
trisodium phosphate, peroxyacids (EFSA, 2008a) to remove microbial contamination of poultry carcasses at the proposed conditions of use will lead to the occurrence of acquired reduced susceptibility to biocides or resistance to therapeutic antimicrobials.

And you with your hubris of a second rate union activist think you know better than the experts.
You Sir, are a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 10:32 AM

Yes I've heard of export tariffs. they are usually imposed by countries trying to increase home consumption.
They make little or no sense in the matter currently under discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 10:40 AM

Time will tell regarding the tariffs.

I take it you have also heard of supply and demand. If the UK consumer demands European meat products we may find that the producers increase costs over and above current rates.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 10:46 AM

From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 10:40 AM
Time will tell regarding the tariffs.

I take it you have also heard of supply and demand. If the UK consumer demands European meat products we may find that the producers increase costs over and above current rates.

I assume you mean the producers would increase prices. No producer wishes to increase his costs.

And supply and demand will come into effect, but we will have greater scope to get supply from outside the EU without their protective import tariffs.
Supply and demand could force the EU to reduce their prices in order to compete.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 11:02 AM

"but we will have greater scope to get supply from outside the EU without their protective import tariffs."

Oh you mean places like the USA with appalling hygiene practices.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 11:14 AM

The world does not comprise merely EU & USA.
Perhaps it is this idea which makes you think the EU is such a great idea, as you see only one alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 11:23 AM

So where do you suggest ........ South America, South Africa and Australasia.

Perhaps if we were to follow that route we would have to pay for the refrigerated shipping.

Wonder who would pick up the tab for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 11:32 AM

Nigel, your confusion knows no bounds. Iains, please tell me where among all that verbiage there is any mention of antibiotics. None of the substances referred to are antibiotics. TCP is a "therapeutic biocide" but is not an antibiotic. There is a difference. Antibiotics are not used on carcases, therefore there is no opportunity for bacteria to develop resistance to them in that context. Developing resistance to antibiotics takes place in an environment in which antibiotics are present. In fact, mutations for resistance may already be present in bacterial populations, but the conditions required for their selection over non-resistance can take place only in an environment containing antibiotic. Feel free to cling on to this and feel free to continue posting your gleefully-brainless insults. But you really don't get this and you are making a fool of yourself. You both need to clarify the difference between antimicrobials (hot water, soap, hand gels, Dettol, Harpic, chlorine, Savlon, etc) and the far narrower category, antibiotics. Antibiotic resistance can't be brought about by non-antibiotic antimicrobials. Resistance to those non-antibiotic antimicrobials can, on the other hand. You are both resorting to an unhelpful conflation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 11:42 AM

No, The term antimicrobials includes antibiotics. Antimicrobials is a broader term, but (unless specifically excluded)includes antibiotics.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 11:45 AM

Steve,
The legs have dropped off...The fat lady has sung...

He did cavort with a "Czeck" spy. He had at least three meetings.
The apology was for suggesting he sold secrets, for which there is no evidence and which Jezza did not have access to anyway.
He was just being groomed for future use.

Rag, will you be reporting me for a libel action again?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 11:57 AM

He was just being groomed for future use.
FOR YOU KEITH
You are a Cold War moron Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 12:09 PM

For you Jim.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/25/corbyn-czechoslovakian-spy-cold-war-long-shadow-labour-left

You are a cold war ignoramus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 12:11 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 11:23 AM

So where do you suggest ........ South America, South Africa and Australasia.

Perhaps if we were to follow that route we would have to pay for the refrigerated shipping.

Wonder who would pick up the tab for that.

We already import a large volume of meat from Australasia. the only difference Brexit would make is in import tariffs. The transport is already being paid for 9or included in the price)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 12:22 PM

Pass the chlorine!

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/ireland-has-highest-rate-of-poultry-food-poisoning-bacteria-in-europe-176210


https://www.vox.com/2015/3/6/8158289/food-poisoning

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 12:34 PM

"I'm perfectly happy for you to pass off the bad science to someone else. But bad science it was. And you quoted it as if you thought it was OK. It isn't."

Shaw do you really think I give a shit about what you think. I will rely on the opinion of experts. If you are so stupid you wish to argue the toss with them, feel free.

Just remember, the authors are real scientists, not a pretend one like you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 12:55 PM

Well Iains, the first point is that the article is dated March 2015.

Do you what, if any, measures have been taken since then to counteract the levels of bacterial infections.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 12:57 PM

"But it is not the animals/meat which are the target of antibiotics it is the microbials (bacteria etc.) The fact that the host animal is dead doesn't prevent any microbials present from building resistance to the antibiotics used. (assuming they are not all successfully killed) "

It is worth emphasizing that any animal treatment regime generally stipulates a minimum time period must elapse between cessation of treatment and subsequent slaughter.

For example: SUMMER DIP. use to treat and control Blowfly and Sheep Scab (Psoroptes ovis) in Sheep. Contains Diazinon (Dimpylate) 10% w.v. Excipient-solvent naphtha (petroleum) heavy aromatic mixture.

Withdrawal Periods :        Animals intended for human consumption must not be slaughtered during treatment. Sheep intended for human consumption may only be slaughtered from 35 days after the last treatment. Not for use on ewes producing milk for human consumption.

And we had best not talk about chicken shit once fed as a protein supplement to ruminants(and still is in places)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 12:58 PM

From Steve

Antibiotic resistance can't be brought about by non-antibiotic antimicrobials.

From Nigel

Antimicrobials is a broader term, but (unless specifically excluded)includes antibiotics.

Is it me or did Steve specifically exclude antibiotics?

I think everyone knows what I will put it down to but over and over again there are examples of it. I can fully understand what Steve and Raggy mean. Some others speak a...

Have guessed yet?

Different language!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 01:13 PM

NOW THERE'S A FUNNY THING!
One the opinions of an unknown - the other a report from the security services
I particularly liked this bit
“In the last few days, The Sun, The Mail, The Telegraph and The Express have all gone a little bit James Bond."
Where does that leave you?
Take your pick Keith - I have no doubt who you will choose
Any comment on Brexit being faciitated by terrorist-linked UVF Russia and LePen employee yet - no?
Thought not!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 01:29 PM

"Iains, please tell me where among all that verbiage there is any mention of antibiotics."

Answer. No where. You first introduced the word and appear to have a fixation on antibiotics. Is it the new word of the moment - a substitute for unfocused or insecure mayhap?

Have you tried therapy?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 01:36 PM

Wow, people have been busy posting today! I have a lot of reading to catch up on.

Nigel, I'd be grateful if you could explain how David Davis' remarks:


David Davis said the UK wanted to lead a "global race to the top" in rights and standards not, as some feared, a "competitive race to the bottom".

... promising the UK will "continue our track record of meeting high standards" once outside the EU.

(from the BBC site, but lots of other places quote it)


fits with
(a) with the link I posted saying the US would be reluctant to do a trade deal at all unless we let the chlorinated chicken in

and (b) with the fact that for many people the 'standards' include animal welfare, as evidenced by the row that broke out when people mistakenly thought that Parliament was not acknowledging animal sentience.

Whether the food is safe or not is only part of the equation because of those animal welfare concerns, and no amount of scientific evidence it is safe will address that concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 01:49 PM

And on the safety question there are figures on the frequency of foodborne illness in the US in a population of around 323 million.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 01:53 PM

From your 06.18 post, Iains:

"The European Food Safety Authority has found no conclusive evidence that antimicrobial chemicals used in food processing contribute to antibiotic resistance.
It is just another bleat from remainers."

There ya go - the first mention of antibiotics came from you. And the sentence makes a blatantly incorrect conflation. Your constant appeal to authority is misplaced. The antimicrobials (chlorine, for example) used in food processing are NOT antibiotics and DO NOT lead to antibiotic resistance. They can lead to antimicrobial resistance, for sure. I have a feeling that that is what the sentence really meant. But that is a very different matter. Any substance that kills bacteria is an antimicrobial. That includes antibiotics. But antibiotics are used in living animals only and are NOT used in food processing. Your quoted sentence can't mean that because it simply doesn't happen. There would be no point. It's true that traces of antibiotics may remain in meat. Yuk. But those antibiotics are NOT USED in food processing and that is NOT what your sentence is referring to. Instead of trying to come up with an even bigger insult, read that again. Look it up if you like. Try to find a reputable source. I know you find that hard, but it's the only way, honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 02:35 PM

The BIOHAZ Panel concluded that despite a long history of use, there are currently no published data to conclude that the application of the four substances - chlorine dioxide, acidified sodium chlorite,
trisodium phosphate, peroxyacids (EFSA, 2008a) to remove microbial contamination of poultry carcasses at the proposed conditions of use will lead to the occurrence of acquired reduced susceptibility to biocides or resistance to therapeutic antimicrobials.

Not as disreputable as you shaw!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 02:52 PM

i've got to be very impressed with folks' facility with chucking around scientific facts about chicken. but i don't think all this technical detail will ever sway anyone with an opinion on the wider brexit topic.to be honest i'm a bit bored with all the political and economic arguments as well. way back to just after the vote everyone stressed how keen they were to sort out the question of british citizens on the mainland and european workers. now, our friend andrea has gone back to italy and thousands more good workers have returned back to their homes and we are no nearing knowing if our daughter and her estonian partner will ever be able to live in the uk. given the chaos in our public services and the thousands of people really suffering from tory inertia while they concentrate exclusively on their ridiculous brexit adventure, it may not seem that important to concern yourselves on the human rights of a few million displaced or uncertain citizens but....well, it matters to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 02:56 PM

The original sentence was by a Lecturer in Food Safety, Food Quality and Environmental Management summarising the sentence above by saying:
The European Food Safety Authority has found no conclusive evidence that antimicrobial chemicals used in food processing contribute to antibiotic resistance."instead of The BIOHAZ Panel concluded that despite a long history of use, there are currently no published data to conclude that the application of the four substances - chlorine dioxide, acidified sodium chlorite,trisodium phosphate, peroxyacids (EFSA, 2008a) to remove microbial contamination of poultry carcasses at the proposed conditions of use will lead to the occurrence of acquired reduced susceptibility to biocides or resistance to therapeutic antimicrobials.

Now I think everyone but shaw realises that an antimicrobial therapy will not work on a corpse - By then therapy is a little late, the parrot is not on it's perch so to speak. Get it now?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3031442/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 03:33 PM

Sorry, Iains but you're all at sea. The original offending sentence contains an error of conflation. And I never said that antimicrobial THERAPY will "work on a corpse" or anything remotely like it. Antimicrobial washes will kill germs on dead meat. That's what this fuss is all about - using the antimicrobial substance chlorine to kill germs on dead chickens during their processing. There's a possibility that such antimicrobials engender resistance - but resistance to antimicrobials used in that manner, NOT to antibiotics, which are, quite simply, NOT used in that manner. That's what was wrong with your sentence. It doesn't matter whether it was Crick, Watson or Einstein who said it - it was a mistake. If it's wrong it's wrong. The Pope sez there's a God, and he's wrong too, and he's the Pope. Instead of lashing out in order to preserve what's left of your shredded ego, go and look it up. And by that I don't mean spending the next hour trying to find something that confirms your misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 03:43 PM

(unsure if) our daughter and her estonian partner will ever be able to live in the uk... it may not seem that important to concern yourselves on the human rights of a few million displaced or uncertain citizens but....well, it matters to me.

Very well said. People have to be at the centre of this. Trade deals and tariffs only matter for the effects they have on people.

I am aware of the opposite situation. My sister and her husband have felt obliged to sell the house they have lived in in Germany for some 15 years and where they had intended to live for the rest of their lives, to move back to the UK because of the uncertainty over the health care rules. it MIGHT gave all been ok, but there is still no guarantee. I could have been in a similar position to you with my Italian daughter in law, but she took UK citizenship a decade or so ago.

These things matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 03:52 PM

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/924875/german-companies-panicking-brexit-looms-survey

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 04:00 PM

Happy days are here again............!
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/02/25/hammond-set-15bn-windfall-economic-forecasts-upgraded/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 04:27 PM

Obviously as time goes on , all these formidable speculations will begin to harden and many of your judgment calls and intractable conflicts will be set in stone. You have my sympathies in advance.

As things come into focus in the future the UK will be able to set fears aside. It is a heritage in which you all should be proud.
To me England has always been the original home of the brave.

sorry I don't mean to be maudlin.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 04:34 PM

You are right as ever DMcG and well said peteaberdeen. I hope things do turn out for the best with your family but somehow doubt that the present administration care about their plight. As I said before, to these people it is all about profit and the bottom line. Stuff the welfare of people, let alone animals. If the economic forecast is gloomy, it is even worse for the welfare of our children and our children's children. Let's get the shower that are ruining the country out and replace them with someone who actualy cares. It's the only way I can see of extracting ourselves from the brown smelly stuff.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 05:16 PM

Boris considers a hard border in Ireland , according to Sky News.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:12 PM

Shaw as ever you are a bore. In this case a very boring bore, in fact the boringest of boring bores. Take your pathetic squeals to those that wrote the original linked articles. I am sure as well educated genuine scientists they would have no problem with politely telling you to *&&^%%% off!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:39 PM

There is one line in your post of 03.52 Iains which should concern us all and that is:

"One in 12 companies is planning to shift its UK investments to other markets, mostly elsewhere within the EU."

If this were to come to fruition no doubt many jobs will be lost in the UK, in addition to those companies already mentioned (Banking, Finance etc) who are already relocating some of their operations outside the UK

Brexiteers seem to be quite complacent about this outcome ........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:44 PM

Boring, boring, boring
"There's a possibility that such antimicrobials engender resistance - but resistance to antimicrobials used in that manner, NOT to antibiotics, which are, quite simply, NOT used in that manner."
But all antibiotics are antimicrobials

THIS IS VERY HARD WORK! none so blind as those that cannot see.
Antibiotics Versus Antimicrobials

An ANTIBIOTIC is a low molecular substance produced by a microorganism that at a low concentration inhibits or kills other microorganisms.

An ANTIMICROBIAL is any substance of natural, semisynthetic or synthetic origin that kills or inhibits the growth of microorganisms but causes little or no damage to the host.i.e.
The term “antimicrobials” include all agents that act against all types of microorganisms – bacteria (antibacterial), viruses (antiviral), fungi (antifungal) and protozoa (antiprotozoal).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:58 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:59 PM

Genuine scientists make mistakes, Iains. Isaac Newton believed in alchemy. The great thing about scientists is that we never appeal to authority, unlike you. Au contraire. There have been too many bad scientists. In my own field, John Heslop-Harrison was revered. Look him up. When I was at Imperial College we raw students hung on to his every word, though his Lamarckism seemed dubious. Well, what a fraud he was. Scepticism is built into our bones. We dismiss all notions that can't quickly produce backup evidence. Of course, you don't understand these things. For a start, you rely on Guido, the Mail, the Telegraph and the Express. You don't see the obvious problem with that. You choose sources that massage your visceral need for confirmation bias, just about the most unscientific defect that anyone can suffer from. You remind me of those pseudo-scientists who work for some pharmaceutical companies, one of those guys who suppresses adverse evidence that doesn't fit your mission (which is why we got Vioxx killing thousands of people). You are tabloid-brainwashed and can't see things objectively, and your ego won't let you back down when you get things wrong, which is an unfortunately-frequent occurrence. On this occasion you have demonstrated that you can't, or won't, distinguish between antimicrobial and antibiotic, despite plenty of prompting in the right direction. When Jim, Dave or I get something arse about face, we back down and, if necessary, apologise. It's an important attribute of being a balanced human being that, so far, has evaded you.

Insult away. Diminish yourself further. Or be dignified. Your decision.

Anyway, back to the substantive. Here's Boris on the Irish border issue:

"We think that we can have very efficient facilitation systems to make sure that there's no need for a hard border, excessive checks at the frontier between Northern Ireland and the Republic," he said.
"There's no border between Islington or Camden and Westminster... but when I was mayor of London we anaesthetically and invisibly took hundreds of millions of pounds from the accounts of people travelling between those two boroughs without any need for border checks whatever."

Profound stuff, eh? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 07:04 PM

"But you really don't get this and you are making a fool of yourself. You both need to clarify the difference between antimicrobials (hot water, soap, hand gels, Dettol, Harpic, chlorine, Savlon, etc) and the far narrower category, antibiotics."

Strange. my definitions have antibiotics included in antimicrobials.
Who is right and who is wrong I wonder?

My definitions come from a teaching resource regarding Antimicrobial Resistance in Veterinary Medicine with contributors including Michigan State University, the University of Minnesota and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

I think I have a little more confidence in the above than the incorrect output of a conceited exteacher that thinks he is a well educated scientist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 07:13 PM

Of course. But you then go on to confuse the two with your hands clapped over your ears. And you're appealing to authority again, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 02:36 AM

Usage, usage and usage again. As has been oft repeated before usage is everything. Use of antimicrobials to remove bacteria from dead matter does not diminish the effect of antibiotics to remove micro organisms from living humans or animals. Even I can understand that and I don't even know how to spell syense.

Now, any new good reports about brexit? No? What a surprise.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 03:32 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 01:36 PM
Wow, people have been busy posting today! I have a lot of reading to catch up on.

Nigel, I'd be grateful if you could explain how David Davis' remarks:

David Davis said the UK wanted to lead a "global race to the top" in rights and standards not, as some feared, a "competitive race to the bottom".

... promising the UK will "continue our track record of meeting high standards" once outside the EU.

from the BBC site, but lots of other places quote it)


fits with
(a) with the link I posted saying the US would be reluctant to do a trade deal at all unless we let the chlorinated chicken in

The link you posted does not say that.

The link you posted says:
Warren Maruyama, who developed the North Atlantic Trade Agreement (NAFTA) under President George H.W Bush, said the UK faced a "big problem" if it went into future trade talks while bound by EU regulations on food standards.

"Under our system Congress gets the ultimate say and if we do a free trade agreement it has to pass the Congress," Mr Maruyama told the Telegraph.

"If American agriculture is opposed to a UK free trade agreement, I wouldn’t say it’s dead on arrival but it’s pretty close. It would be a serious hurdle."

It then went on to mention chlorine washed chicken by way of a comment from Jeremy Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 04:28 AM

Sorry, DMcG: I take that back.
Mr Maruyama did go on to mention chlorinated chicken, but it came after the comments by Jeremy Corbyn, so I did not connect the two.

“A customs union presupposes a single tariff for all members and presupposes the illumination of all regulatory barriers within the union, and that implies a degree of harmonisation between UK and UK,” he said.

“If the UK is bound to precautionary principles and food standards, that’s a big problem and the US is watching that closely.

“You would be stuck with some of the EU’s restrictive policies that would preclude the importation of GMOs (genetically modified organisms), chlorinated chicken, hormone treated beef.”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 04:41 AM

You have in in a nutshell there, Dave, or should I say a Salmonella-fee eggshell. It really isn't hard, is it! :-)

I can hardly hear a thing here for the clamour of balls dropping off brass monkeys. We've had to cancel us trip up north due to predictions of tomorrow's apocalypse. I'm seeing icebergiferous hallucinations. We have a wind that could cut you in half, given three minutes standing at t'bus stop...

I blame Brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 05:01 AM

Shaw I am only going to say this once:
The sentence you are having a problem with was quoted by me. I did not write it. Have you managed to get this fact in your remarkably thick head?
   Therefore if you have an issue with it why on earth are you wittering to me about it?
I am not my brother's keeper.
Go away and have a witter to the chappie that wrote the article. You are wasting my valuable time
You are also a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 05:19 AM

Given your plethora of silly and insulting postings here, I'd say your time isn't as valuable as you think. As for that sentence, you quoted it, you say. Well I'd say don't quote incorrect things to make your case. They have the effect of doing the complete opposite. You do a lot of that. 'Scuse me, I have a Bury black pudding brunch to rustle up. Now that IS a valuable use of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 05:32 AM

Bury black puds will be better after brexit, Steve. I am sure the Daily Mail reported that they were banned under EU legislation...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 06:16 AM

Well shaw if you spent less time stalking me, the world would be a happier place. You are a very sad little man.
Let's face it.You only made it an issue because you thought I wrote it.
(Don't bother to deny it. It is patently obvious to a two year old *)
Wrong again!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 06:21 AM

I would think that as a basic premise it is reasonable to assume that if a poster places anything on here then he or she is responsible for the content.

Running away and saying it wasn't me Miss, it was some big boys is best left to small children.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 06:34 AM

Time for Ewan MacColl's Moving On Song, I think. Go, Move, SHIFT, Iains!

I've discovered two things about the Bury black pudding, Dave. First, it's my favourite. Second, it's low-fat, far more so than most other black puddings. I tend to buy whole ones, skin 'em, slice 'em and fry in butter until ALMOST crisp. Very nice with almost anything, especially thrown into a bap with a poached egg...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 06:35 AM

if you spent less time stalking me

Errr, it looks remarkably like you have that the wrong way round. You seem to follow Steve and a few others around to jump on everything they say. This was pointed out a long time before and you are now up to your old trick of trying to turn the tables. It will not work.

Don't bother to deny it. It is patently(sic)* obvious to a two year old :-)

DtG

*Blatantly would suit your purpose better. Both words mean obviously, but the word patently does not necessarily convey a sense of disapproval. Blatantly is used when the trait or action described is seen as despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 06:37 AM

A bap? A BAP? What's up with a balm cake you southern Nancy?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 07:12 AM

As a Lancastrian I am loathed to say this but the BEST Black Pudding is made in Derbyshire.

NT Gibbs is a small village butchers in Tideswell but their black pudding is simply superb, the best I have ever tasted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 07:43 AM

I am told Stornaway is good but I have never tried it. I suspect it is made to a secret recipe that Jeremy Corbyn tried to sell to the Russians.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 08:10 AM

Doubtful Dave, as a committed Vegetarian with clear Vegan leanings he would not endanger red blooded animals to the swords of Putin.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 08:14 AM

" It is patently obvious *"

Now why did I place the asterisk there. I am fully aware of tautology and deliberately placed it there for one of you idiots pick up on it just to prove my point about stalking. Well done!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 08:28 AM

But you didn't place the asterisk there did you? It was placed after "obvious to a two year old" and was patently in the wrong place. You had also used brackets for reasons I can only assume are something to do with this different language you speak. Furthermore, an asterisk usually indicates that there is a matching one further down the page giving more details. Yours had no such match and made no sense. You did not deliberately include it at all. You made a mistake and now in your own inimitable style you are digging yourself further into the hole.

Don't bother to deny it. It is blatantly obvious to a two year old.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 08:30 AM

You can buy a vegan Bury black pudding, I see. I mean, what the hell is THAT! I'm sticking to the Bury one, chaps, (a) because I'm a Radcliffe man, (b) because it's low fat and I have a penchant for frying things in butter.

One of the best tapas I ever had in Spain was at a tatty bar in the town square at Canjayar in Almeria province. The owner calls the snack huevos sorpresa (egg surprise). It's a poached egg in a bun. The "surprise" bit is a huge great big wodge of black pudding in the middle of it. I've been doing it at home ever since!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:05 AM

Nice try gnome. but you are obviously wriggling, having been caught out!
I see your little mate has black pudding on the brain. Is the cure antimicrobials or the more restricted antibiotics?

Now for more pressing concerns: Corbyn. opportunistic rather than principled.
According to interviews in the labour heartland his u turn will cost him votes. Betrayal is a word that springs to mind.
If corbyn ever becomes pm the pound will tank and we will all be emigrating.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:07 AM

How do you get a wodge of black pudding inside a poached egg?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:11 AM

but you are obviously wriggling, having been caught out!

You are at it again, Iains. Blatantly getting it the wrong way round. I have not seen so much wriggling since, oh, when you were wriggling the other day. It is like watching kids in playground mimicking each other because they don't know how to argue. What with that and 'please Miss it wasn't me' what will you try next? My Dad's a policeman?

Now, any good news on brexit?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:18 AM

Give it up Dave. You are getting as boring as shaw. You got caught out. accept it and shut up!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:22 AM

My brother is bigger than yours and he will get you at playtime.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:24 AM

" the pound will tank "

What the hell do you think happened to the pound immediately after Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:27 AM

It's a bit like when he said that the offending sentence was quoted by him, yet he put it outside the speech marks containing the rest of the quote. It is not English like wot she is spoke, is it, Dave? He's becoming a bit Keithistic in my view, only with a lot more rude stuff thrown in.

In the meantime our beloved PM is cluelessly rowing with the EU again over the Irish border. It's becoming clear that only a customs union can resolve that issue. The DUP are sharpening their teeth at the very thought of a customs border down the middle of the Irish Sea, the only non-fudge solution possible, if the Republic and the Six Counties end up with a soft border without a UK customs union with the EU. It doesn't look to me like the EU are up for fudges. And we have the spectacle of the Institute of Directors and the CBI siding with Corbyn against her. Aren't things going well? She's even had to tell her own backbenchers to "just calm down!"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:33 AM

It's quite astonishing, Steve. Donald Trump has a lot to answer by making alt truth acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:35 AM

A dose of seeing that the ground is coming up fast to hit us, rather than opportunism. I wish he'd gone further. And I wish the bloody Tories would start to see what's best for this country's interests instead of watching their own arses. Some of them already are. Arguments against the customs union are utterly threadbare. There will be no magic deals with China, India and the US. We don't make much (cheers, Maggie), we can't compete in terms of scale or wages costs and they don't really need our stuff anywhere near as much as we seem to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 10:15 AM

Sorry, DMcG: I take that back. Mr Maruyama did go on to mention chlorinated chicken

No problem.

So do you want to try to come up with a way that fits together: - the high standards which Davis promised - the general belief that animal welfare is part of those standards - and Mr Maruyama's warning the US will not make a deal if we have the EU food standards or higher.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 10:34 AM

Jim,
Take your pick Keith - I have no doubt who you will choose

since you linked piece Jim, evidence has emerged in the records of Corbyn's meetings with the spy and him being given a code name for future use.

Any comment on Brexit being faciitated by terrorist-linked UVF Russia and LePen employee yet - no?

No. It was "facilitated" by a democratic vote of the people with the blessing of the elected government and every democratic party in Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 10:47 AM

Original post, plain for all to see

From: Iains - PM
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 06:16 AM
...
(Don't bother to deny it. It is patently obvious to a two year old *)

Alt truth a mere 2 hours later.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 08:14 AM

" It is patently obvious *"

Now why did I place the asterisk there

I don't think even Keef would be so blatant or even patent, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 10:55 AM

Do we need a separate thread to consider this, or a dedicated one as with Damian Green?

Huff. Post
"A new report has revealed Labour women have been raped, groped and harassed by men within their own party - with one MP alleged to have preyed on a drunken teenager.

LabourToo - a campaign inspired by the #MeToo movement against sexual harasssment - asked politicians, staff, activists and candidates from across the country to share their stories anonymously to create a detailed picture of the extend of the problem.

Their “shocking and distressing” findings, collated over a two-month period late last year, have now been collated and sent to the party’s London headquarters, where senior officials are under pressure to take action.

Labour MP and equality campaigner Stella Creasy said the women’s stories were “heartbreaking”."
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labourtoo-harassment-report-reveals-rape-assault-and-male-mp-preying-on-drunk-teen_uk_5a956b5fe4b01f65f59a85bc

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 11:01 AM

Separate thread I would say. It is an important issue and one that seems to be endemic in politics as well as show business.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 11:02 AM

Well it is certainly nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit so, yes, it should be in a separate thread rather than here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 11:37 AM

"since you linked piece Jim, evidence has emerged in the records of Corbyn's meetings with the spy and him being given a code name for future use."
Bollocks -and you know it- you are now getting desperate
"No. It was "facilitated" by a democratic vote of the people with the blessing of the elected government and every democratic party in Parliament."
S it is the British people who are responsible for introducing French Fascist, Northern Irish sectarian fanatics with terrorist links and Russian bloggers into British politics
YVery patriotic of you Keith - you really wade in the sewers to defend this bunch of scum, don't you?
As for your pathetic "rape" allegations - the whole of Westminster is up to its arse in sexual harassment, pornography and pedophilia and has been for a long time
That two Labour members have been accused of such behaviour is hardly surprising since this type of behaviour has reached Prime Ministerial level
You broke your arse defending one of these pornographers until he humiliated you and confessed that he was lying
Even the church can no longer be trusted in these matters
You are a desperate joke
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 11:56 AM

I'm with Jim. It may well be an important topic but there's absolutely no doubt why Keith has brought it up. Any attempt to discuss it here would be utterly futile.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 12:56 PM

Jim,
Bollocks -and you know it- you are now getting desperate

It is a FACT as reported by the BBC whose own journalist studied the records first hand.
The bollocks are all yours Jim.

Steve,
why Keith has brought it up.

Jim brought up Damian Green on this thread, and not because he is a remainer.

Rag, will you be starting a thread for this topic as with others?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 01:21 PM

No need, Raggy. I have done it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 01:22 PM

First Michael Foot wore a donkey jacket to the Cenotaph now corbyn the clown wears hiking boots to participate in PM's Question time.

Got no couth these labout louts.


https://order-order.com/2018/02/28/give-jezza-high-tariff-boot/#more-288180

What a scruff-bag, the way he dresses is now nothing less than a matter of national disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 01:28 PM

Labour is now scraping the barrel for potential candidates!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/url-labour-party-sexual-abuse-dossier-mps-criminal-records-harassment-labourtoo-a8

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 01:35 PM

I'm not sure which is funnier. Iains making a mess of quoting right wing bollocks monger Guido or Iains making a balls of pasting simple links.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 01:39 PM

"Jim brought up Damian Green on this thread, and not because he is a remainer."#Damien Green appeared on this thread long before I brought it up
I raised it here because of your desperate attempts to use something that is now commonplace throughout our society as if it had anything to do with Brexit - sex in high places - SFA to do with Brexit
You and Iaians have also attempted to use spy fairy stories, which have nothing to do with Brexit either
Iains continues to use the sex bit, just as you will continue with your spying shite
If you gang want people to stick top he point, then do so yourselves
Incidentally
David Cameron has now called for a second referendum if the Tort circus can't get its act together
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 01:40 PM

Beg pardon - I think I mean John Major - the The Suits all look the same to me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 02:17 PM

Two things. Michael Foot didn't wear anything like a "donkey jacket." Second, you're perfectly welcome to keep on with the personal attacks on Jeremy Corbyn. That's exactly how the Tories lost their majority. Amazing how Tories forget that we want to know how they're going to run the country, not see them neurotically attacking Jezza all the time. So bring it on!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 02:32 PM

Jim,
spy fairy stories,

Spy factual stories. I posted nothing not researched and reported by BBC.

I ignored the story until Steve denied the facts of it, and since then have only responded to points put to me.

Damien Green appeared on this thread long before I brought it up

No. You were the first Jim. 04 Dec 17 - 01:41 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 02:56 PM

Spreading yourself a bit thin, aren't you, Keith? Tories gentle and friendly knee-brushers, Labour a bunch of spying, mass-raping bullies? Don't forget to drag in the rabid antisemitism, just before you tell us how you always voted Blair and are in reality a fair-minded, mainstream slightly right-of-centre sort of chap? Read me lips, Keith. The spy nonsense is dead in the water. Nothing to see here. A slanderous Tory has had to grovel and pay out. Knock it off, Keith. We know that you brexit chappies are utterly demoralised and totally lacking in good news, and will do anything to divert us away from the impending disaster that you leave brigade have visited on this country. But do us a favour and impose a period of shutuppitude on yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 03:51 PM

"Michael Foot didn't wear anything like a "donkey jacket." Second, you're perfectly welcome to keep on with the personal attacks on Jeremy Corbyn."

Sorry.Look at the photos. If it is not a donkey jacket it is identical in colour and style. Therefore it is a donkey jacket. It may have been expensive and not come from Arco, but it is still a donkey jacket. Not only that but a labour MP who was watching the proceedings on television said, “Look, he’s wearing a donkey jacket.” and if you look at the photos of corbyn at PM question time he is wearing boots. Does it really make any difference if it is reported in Private Eye or the FT.
I suppose in your pinky, huggy, huggy world, if not reported in the Guardian or BBC then it must be False News.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 04:03 PM

Traitors!


https://order-order.com/2018/02/28/labour-accused-colluding-barnier/


https://www.rt.com/uk/420064-rees-mogg-corbyn-barnier/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 04:21 PM

Given to good deal of snow that has been about it would eminently sensible (to me at least) to wear sensible footwear when venturing out.

This is yet another attempt by sad people to divert the conversion away from more pressing matters to which they have no answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 04:35 PM

Tell me raggy. Do you clump around your house in wellies, or do you change into more sensible footwear. The man is a clown. Moving from one building to another that is in close proximity hardly qualifies as venturing out. Or perhaps for remoaners, it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 05:01 PM

No Iains I don't, as you say, clump round the house in my wellies, nor did I ever take slippers to work.

You guys are REALLY clutching at straws.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 05:50 PM

From the right-wing Daily Telegraph, not exactly Foot's ally:

Mr Foot, then Labour leader, laid his party’s wreath wearing a short dark coat, in contrast to the long black overcoats worn by other men in attendance...But according to Mr Foot's official biographer, Lord Morgan, the coat was not a donkey jacket – which would have leather shoulders – but "a short, blue-green overcoat" bought for Mr Foot by his wife, Jill at considerable expense.
During the Remembrance ceremony, the Queen Mother is said to have complimented Mr Foot on the garment, telling him that it was "a smart, sensible coat for a day like this."

So perhaps we can now put this lying piece of Iains-idiocy to bed once and for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 07:09 PM

A picture tells a thousand words.
A nice piccie of offending donkey jacket. Never mind the quality, feel the width.

You halfwits take the bait every time

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/932797.stm

No comment on Labour's treachery I see. No Surprise there!

Could be a bit of an issue down the line, to renege on a democratic vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:16 PM

I'm very tempted to suggest that, as with antibiotics, you try to acquaint yourself with what a donkey jacket actually is. The article you link to, a reasonable precis of Foot's career, sheds no light whatsoever on your donkey jacket assertion. There's also nothing there about what you seem to regard as treachery. The thing is, we live in a democracy. As such, we have every right to challenge the government's stance. No-one on the remain side is holding a gun to anyone else's head. If we wish to campaign until the bitter end for a reversal of brexit, that's us exercising our democratic right. Only neurotic little-Englanders such as your good self see a threat in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:02 AM

There is no treachery, plain and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:16 AM

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 11:37 AM

"since you linked piece Jim, evidence has emerged in the records of Corbyn's meetings with the spy and him being given a code name for future use."
Bollocks -and you know it- you are now getting desperate
"No. It was "facilitated" by a democratic vote of the people with the blessing of the elected government and every democratic party in Parliament."
S it is the British people who are responsible for introducing French Fascist, Northern Irish sectarian fanatics with terrorist links and Russian bloggers into British politics

Do I take it that Northern Irish sectarian fanatics with terrorist links refers to the DUP members who you continually refer to in such terms?
If so, they were brought into 'British politics' (actually the politics of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland) by being elected by their Northern Irish constituents. If there is any blame to be apportioned for their presence in 'British politics' I think you should look a little closer to home.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 04:09 AM

"refers to the DUP members who you continually refer to in such terms?"
Bit slow on the uptake Nigel - THE PAPERS have been full of it since Mayfly gave them a Billion of British taxpayers money
"by being elected by their Northern Irish constituents."
And this matters why exactly?
When Irish independence was finally won (sort of), Britain carefully divided Ireland into two parts ascertaining that the bit that remained as part of the Union was dominated by sectarian Loyalists loyal to Britain, even excuding three Ulster counties that would have tipped the balance the other way
This led to getting on for a century's inequality and repression which finally turned to open warefare when peaceful Civil Rights marches demanding equality were brutally beaten into submission with the help of British/Irish police (an echo of what had happened in the American South a decade earlier)
The North has been dominated by a fiercely sectarian anti-Catholic (up to now) majority set up be and loyal to the British Government - this is about to end as the two populations have almost reached parity   
So the "closer to home" you are referring to is still part of Britain - the Unionists describe themselves as British and have brought the country to the point of collapse on several occasions, first by introducing the gun into twentieth century Irish politics big-time, then by terrorising the third minority whenever it questions the six counties "Brutishness" - Northern Ireland's problem stems from its desire to call itself "British" Probably the greatest positive thing to come from the fiasco that is Brexit is that it has almost certainly guaranteed a United Ireland
All immaterial anyway - it was Thereas May who decided to spend a billion of the British taxpayers money to help her out of the massive hole she dug for herself by calling an election and losing a majority - she used British taxes as her own personal rainy-day piggy-bank
That the DUP was elected is beside the point anyway - whoever is elected becomes responsible for what happens to the country - the electorate no longer have a say in or bear any responsible for what happens - that is the sham of Parliamentary democracy

"There is no treachery, plain and simple."
Lads, lads, lads!!!
This pair of twots have brought up this so-called treachery to divert attention from the fact that Brexit has now become a long-running farce, a running sore - next step paedophilia, misogyny and antisemitism (probaly wife and mother nbrating thrown in for good measure)
If they were seriously concerned about Britain's security and well-being they would be up-in-arms about Ukip's links with LePen's fascists or British politics being interfered with by Russian bloggers or Mayfly spending Britain's hard-earned taxes on personal peccadilloes
on't feed the ****** trolls
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 04:55 AM

""Brutishness""
Should be "Britishness" - though I suppose they are the same thing in the long run
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 05:34 AM

" sheds no light whatsoever on your donkey jacket assertion."
I suggest that you look at the piccies. There is one of him at the Cenotaph looking like an out of work navvy.

and more on corbyn's boots
"Two centimetres of snow in Westminster provided excuse enough for Jeremy Corbyn, leader of Her Majesty’s loyal opposition, to arrive at the set piece event of the political week (watched by millions around the globe, the premium export of British democracy) in hiking boots. Yes, he actually wore a pair of grey, rubber soled hiking boots on the frontbench. Ugg boots and an ‘El Gato’ onesie next week? Spats? Clown shoes? Bowling sneakers? Summer’s on its way: sombrero? Why not get into the spirit of the upcoming World Cup and pitch up in full Venezuela strip? Or how about a mackintosh, trilby hat, sunglasses and a newspaper with eye-holes cut out?
On retracing the route from Corbyn’s office on the Parliamentary Estate to the Chamber of the House of Commons. 99% of that route is inside, under cover, in halls carpeted and heated at your expense. Snow-booted Jez took around five steps exposed to the elements in the course of passing from one palatial building to another – but it’s a path, not a Himalayan pass strewn with the fallen corpses and discarded oxygen bottles of weather-beaten climbers."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 05:40 AM

Ye gods, had he brushed his teeth and combed his hair, What an utterly pathetic load of twaddle. Perhaps he should have worn leather trousers like May once did. You know the ones that cost £1000.



Any good news about Brexit yet Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 05:43 AM

How do you feel about your boy crush, Rees-Mogg, now Iains?

Jacob Rees-Mogg just brazenly LIED about Jeremy Corbyn’s voting record live on Channel 4

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 06:03 AM

!"Two centimetres of snow in Westminster provided excuse enough for Jeremy Corbyn,"
Got snow on his boots - must be a Red spy!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 06:04 AM

Getting a bit tetchy are we???
Are you more comfortable babbling about weeds?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 06:20 AM

Looks like my last post hit a nerve. I'm not tetchy at all. Just wondering why you seem to consider it worse to wear hiking boots or a warm coat during bad weather than it is to lie in public about other politicians.

Still now good news about brexit then?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 07:00 AM

Steve,
The spy nonsense is dead in the water.

The story was true. The apology was for claims about secrets and payments which were never part of the story.

There were at least 3 meetings with a real spy who considered him to be a potential future source of information.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 07:28 AM

Over the past day or two we have had Tusk and Barnier and John Major and Bill Cash and Rees-Mogg and who knows who else all putting pressure on May before a key speech tomorrow to find a way out of the hole she dug for herself in December and what she says or doesnt say could have implications for years.

And there are those who think Michael Foot's coat or a "potential future source" is more significant.   (I am potential future PM myself - just have to stand for election and take it from there, you know)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 07:32 AM

he he, even the poster himself is a POTENTIAL future source !!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 07:53 AM

As I eloquently (IMHO) put it before, DMcG, they are fiddling with semantics while the treaty of Rome burns. Try to distract us from the looming disaster.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:17 AM

There were at least 3 meetings with a real spy who considered him to be a potential future source of information.

They're trained to recognize dupes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:22 AM

Yeah, and they compasses and flexible hacksaws in the heels of their shoes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:24 AM

Meanwhile in the real world where people's lives are affected, May has u-turned on her insistance on changes to rules for newly arriving EU citizens after May 2019 and the EU have rejected because it does not go far enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:31 AM


Yeah, and they compasses and flexible hacksaws in the heels of their shoes

Wow, that's a blast from the past! Clark's Wayfinders! I had some of those complete with compass in the heel. No hacksaw, though, as far as I remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:45 AM

"There were at least 3 meetings with a real spy"
A real spy - can't have been much of a spy if everybody knew he was one!"
Your party has been selling Corbyn as a bumbling inconsequential idiot since his appearance on the scene - now he seems to have been a desirable catch for foreign powers
What kind of a security service has Britain we got if they have allowed a spy to get as far as Westminster without one single comment - until it looks like he might be a contender for next Prime Minister, that is?
You are a moronic idiot Keith
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:49 AM

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5464119/remainers-should-get-a-grip-and-realise-brexit-impact-papers-are-meaningless/



********************** 3 or 4?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:17 AM

Interesting, Iains. Apart from the arse wipe that the report is published in it could almost be true. But, and here is the crunch, if indeed one cannot accurately give an economic forecast for 15 years in the future then that applies equally to both the leave and remain economic arguments. If we can therefore discount the projected economic benefits of either leave or remain then what have people based their decision to leave or remain on?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:25 AM

"There were at least 3 meetings with a real spy who considered him to be a potential future source of information."

"They're trained to recognize dupes."

Two classic bits of fake news, totalky unsupportable, to go alongside the donkey jacket
yarn. Keep it up, lads!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:30 AM

Another thing, apart from the fact it comes from the Sun, the article is a month old and is factually incorrect. The pound, which they maintain was perking up, has fallen since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:38 AM

And we Liverpool supporters don't appreciate being directed towards that lying shitbag rag the S*n, thank you very much. I note that the said bumwipe describes Momentum as a "cult." Is there still a Monday Club? A Cambridge Mafia bratpack? A Notting Hill Set? A Bullingdon Club? Do give it a rest, Rupert!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:39 AM

The article also completely misunderstands what forecasting is. Of course you cannot give precise figures for such things, but you are not attempting to. I happened to have had a little involvement in the decision whether to build Terminal 5 at Heathrow. Does anyone imagine such a decision was taken without forecasts of the number of passengers, goods, etc? Does anyone imagine a power station is built without forecasting the demand? Any of those forecasts could be out in detail, or quite substantially - what Brexit will or will not do to passenger traffic was not modelled for instance - but you take the decision using the best information you can, while simultaneously recognising its limitations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:40 AM

"If we can therefore discount the projected economic benefits of either leave or remain then what have people based their decision to leave or remain on?"
The major issue was not wanting to be part of the EU. The vote was for in or out, nuffin about consequences.
Obviously the details are crucial, but as yet each side is not for talking and the clock is running. With or without agreement the clock is running down. The implications have been thrashed out theoretically on here ad nauseam, but it is only opinion.
The vote was not based on economics, it was about regaining control, in or out - yes or no.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:44 AM

"And we Liverpool supporters don't appreciate being directed towards that lying shitbag rag the S*n, thank you very much. I note that the said bumwipe describes Momentum as a "cult." Is there still a Monday Club? A Cambridge Mafia bratpack?"

WHAT A WELL BROUGHT UP LITTLE LAD. Nice to see your true colour on public display. Shall I mail you some soap and water for your gutter mouth?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:51 AM

The major issue was not wanting to be part of the EU

But wanting or not wanting to be part of something must be based on logic. What are the advantages and disadvantages of belonging to a club? What are the benefits and costs? These must also be projected to allow for future consequences. We need this information to make a reasoned decision and, from what you are saying, this decision was made on purely irrational grounds. If that is the case we need to go through the same process but this time with all the facts known and all of the lies removed.

it was about regaining control

Regaining control is a red herring as we never lost control of our own administration anyway and leaving the EU removes our control over their decisions.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:56 AM

The vote was indeed simple in or out. What is wasn't was about whether we should be in or out of the single market and customs union. That decision was made by Theresa May alone, not by parliament, not even by the cabinet. She's taken control all right. Though her control won't last long.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 10:03 AM

What is wasn't was about whether we should be in or out of the single market and customs union.

Yes it was. It was stated to be about that by both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 10:10 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn2hSVfqtYc

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 10:13 AM

There was only one question asked on the referendum ballot paper. It read

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

It then gave just 2 options woth a box to put your 'x' against one of them

Remain a member of the European Union

Leave the European Union

There was no mention of the single market of the customs union.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 10:54 AM

Dave, your comment is only relevant to people who voted without listening to a single argument.

Both sides were adamant that voting Leave meant leaving the single market and the customs union.
Only empty headed voters could be unaware of that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 11:02 AM

Is that not what the ballot paper said then?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 11:17 AM


Both sides were adamant that voting Leave meant leaving the single market and the customs union

Perhaps, but very few - campaigners or voters - understood what it meant, I suggest. I offer in evidence three things

Firstly, the contents of the BBC "Have Your Say" messages around Brexit. You should form your own opinion, but it is clear to me many posters still do not know what is 'customs union' and what is 'single market'. And they are the ones involved enough to bother to post.

Secondly, much of what both the Leave and Remain camp said was ignored. Why should anyone give more credence to Osborne's view about leaving the CU/SM than his emergency budget? Discount the latter and you may well discount the former. Similarly, Farage and co made great play of having a bespoke UK-EU agreement. No one, I would suggest, had any idea how that would 'compare and contrast' with the CU/SM.

Thirdly, it may have slowed a bit, but the first few months revealed unintended consequence after unintended consequence. Did most people - campaigners or voters - realise the Irish border question was linked into the CU/SM question? Even now there is much denial of that. So if the campaigners didn't fully understand the consequences it is a bit harsh to expect all the voters to.

I am with Dave: we know how people voted on the given question. Using Iains' current favourite term, claiming you know what they felt about anything beyond that question is opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:01 PM

The facts were put before the people.
You can argue that they were not understood, but the Remain side made every effort to explain the implications of leaving single market and customs union and people still voted to leave.
It is too late to complain now that your side failed to make its own case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:16 PM

I'm sorry, Keith, but those "facts," insofar as they weren't actually just hopeful predictions rather than facts, were laced with lies, sloganising and sordid appeals to prejudices, by both sides. The customs union and single market played tenth fiddle to "taking back control," not giving the EU our money and keeping foreigners out, including putting up posters showing long lines of foreign non-white undesirables and riding around in a bus with a massive lie painted on the side of it. You were actually in the country during the campaign, I take it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:25 PM

Like our courts it relied on both sides trying to convince of their own case and debunk the opposition's case.
It was a fair trial, and a verdict was reached.

Our elections are similarly conducted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:26 PM

"It is too late to complain..."

No it isn't, and that is an extremely undemocratic assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:27 PM

It was not an election and was absolutely nothing like a trial. You're losing it fast, Keith. Have a lie down.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:31 PM

Brexit is getting closer every minute. Yippee!

Terrible things facts.
"
By Tom McTague        6/12/16, 11:54 AM CET Updated 6/13/16, 2:35 PM CET

David Cameron confirmed Sunday that he will pull Britain out of the single market if there is a vote to leave the European Union at the upcoming referendum.

The prime minister told the BBC’s Andrew Marr show that it would be impossible to copy the Norwegian model by remaining inside the trading bloc despite being outside the EU because that would mean accepting freedom of movement and trade rules made in Brussels.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:32 PM

It is not undemocratic.
You complain that Remain failed to convince people of the implications of leaving.
Clearly, the other side made a better case and won.

The customs union and single market played tenth fiddle to "taking back control," not giving the EU our money.....

If true, Remain allowed it to happen.
They had the same opportunity to put the case as did their opponents.
It was a fair trial and a verdict was reached.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:35 PM

Here is a little sing along for the remoaners to play for themselves
as they are a little confused about what was said about Brexit before the referendum.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT2Vx9jSyjg

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:36 PM

It was not an election and was absolutely nothing like a trial.

The referendum, like trials and elections, was an adversarial debate.
Both sides put their case and the jury decides.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:40 PM

Clearly, the other side made a better case and won.

You mean the leave side told better lies?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 01:01 PM

Steve, having been forced to go into store by the delivery being hijacked by Siberians I have got round to buying Mossers Nero d'Avolo. It is indeed very good. I suspect I will regret having opened it at 6pm

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 02:06 PM

"Both sides put their case and the jury decides."

I wonder just how many innocent people have been executed by the state using this scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 02:44 PM

Rag,
I wonder just how many innocent people have been executed by the state using this scenario.

You would replace jury trial with what Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 02:46 PM

Bought four bottles of it meself this morning. Uphill struggle to get one open as Mrs Steve is on a crusade to not drink on three nights a week, and Thursday, tragically, is one of them. We hadn't had a flake of snow here until lunchtime today but were well and truly snowed in now with a gale blowing it around everywhere.


UPDATE: She was easily persuaded...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 02:47 PM

Dave,
You mean the leave side told better lies?

OK, but also more believable truths and a better rebutting of Remain's lies.

The referendum, like trials and elections, was an adversarial debate.
Both sides put their case and the jury decides.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:30 PM

You've taken your silly metaphor way too far and now you're just making an arse of yourself.

("Making?" Did I really say that?)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:36 PM

Thank you for that acknowledgement, Keith.

One problem with your trial analogy. The jury would comprise of 12 good men and true. They are given 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth'. They are advised by a learned judge on any points that may be unclear.

This did not happen with the referendum. There were a sight more than 12 men. We have no idea how many of those were good and true. They were fed a diet of lies. They were 'advised' by politicians with hidden agendas.

No comparison at all really.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:39 PM

And don't forget there is amechanism to appeal decisions if new evidence comes to light or the trial was otherwise faulty.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:40 PM

You've taken your silly metaphor way too far and now you're just making an arse of yourself.

No he's not, you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:44 PM

Oh my God! It's contagious. Bobad has caught school playground syndrome from Iains!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:55 PM

Ignore him. There's no cure. And good point indeed, DMcG. The right of appeal! But these 'ere brexiteers don't want that. They think that 51.8% out of 72% is a resounding victory and that we're being undemocratic when we protest and actually try to save the country from doom. They're wrong. Unless we can change things there are hard times to come. No doubt they'll blame it on the phases of the moon or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 04:34 PM

Shaw has got the right of it, ignore me, there's no need to reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 04:40 PM

Silly boy! Any victory is a victory. To call it resounding is merely rubbing your face in the fact that the brexiteers won (whenever you drag yourself away from a wine glass long enough)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 04:59 PM

I wonder what part of leaving the EU the remoaners have such difficulty understanding? As far as I can make out they are trying to argue they did not understand the implications and instead of a yes/no answer they wanted 20 questions. Do the fools think a referendum is some sort of quiz show that you watch on telly? It is the major decision of a generation. That in itself would inspire a rational person to educate themselves as to the issues at stake. Are remoaners all snowflakes that require spoon feeding? Are they unable to think for themselves any more?
Had they paid more attention to the issues before the vote perhaps the decibels of bleating might have been lessened.
They really are a most uninspiring, whining bunch of losers. You would think after nearly 4000 posts they would have exhausted their wittering.
Perhaps a kind moderator might put them out of their misery.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 05:05 PM

It is the brectums that need educating, Iains, but of course you knew that. Just another distraction.

No good news then?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 05:21 PM


I wonder what part of leaving the EU the remoaners have such difficulty understanding?

Maybe the same thing that has been leading to such contradictory statements from the government for so long?

Still, I am sure Teresa May will explain everything without vagueness or ambiguity tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 06:31 PM

Just watched the first half-hour of Question Time. Were I to have been a Martian watching the "debate" on brexit, I'd have come to the conclusion that brexit supporters are a thick, braying, shouty, brainless bunch of retards. Fortunately, I'm not a Martian and I don't think that.


Not quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:18 PM

"Just watched the first half-hour of Question Time."
Me too
Wasn't it interesting how the Tory argued that the people's decision was sacrosanct on Brexit but when it came to fracking the Government had the right to overturn local wishes ?
Politicians do speak with forked tongues, don't they - the same as their supporters here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:42 PM

Yup, it was a depressing watch for sure.

I wonder whether our native brexiteers have watched today's spectacle of Trump doing his protectionist, America-first stunt of applying a massive tariff on steel imports. Augurs really well for us doing an amazing trade deal with 'em post-brexit, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 03:39 AM

The early comments on May's speech seem to be as vague as ever. Yes, we remainers understand what 'Leave' means - that's trivial - but where you then go, and how you get there is what the government seems to be as undecided about as ever. Yes, we know you want to keep the country unified with no hard border: apple pie and mitherhood. Spell out how you intend to achieve that. You may pledge about rights but have already voted down amwndmwnts to preserve thwm. So twll us how you are building those protecrions into law.

Fine words and unbutterwd parsnips.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 03:43 AM

Sorry about all the 'w's. I was in the process of correcting them when I accidentally submitted it. Mea culpa. (Now where have I heard that recently?)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:07 AM

One for all, and all for one???????


https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/925927/Brexit-news-eu-uk-europe-allies-economist-Andrea-Hoss-britain-not-alone

Another paper for the remoaners to slag off while ignoring the content. Who will be first I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:17 AM

" but when it came to fracking the Government had the right to overturn local wishes ?"
What astounding ignorance!
. In 1934, the country's oil resources were nationalised by the Petroleum Production Act, and it is within the remit of government to exploit such natural resources for the greater good. The same as putting pipelines or pylons in or over private land, or destroying natural landscapes by the imposition of wind turbines.
Or pursuing Brexit when a clear majority voted for the greater good!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:25 AM

Me
Is there a point in all this Iains?
Link after link in support of a policy and a party that is making a laughing stock of Britain now - all from supporters of that party and all saying exactly nothing - in May's cas, "give us time and we'll have to get it right in the end"
Stop patronising us - we can see what's happening - we only have to watch the in fighting of Johnson, Rees Mog, May... et al, while they are now fighting for the rights Britain can only have if they remain in the E.U. - why leave if that's all Britain is going too get at the end of all this?
While Britain has no industries we are never going to be able to "stand on our own two feet" so it will be a case of who we are going to depend in in the future - Trump's unstable America, China, extremist Russia....?
In whose pocket does the future of Britain lie?
Brexit was sold on the inhuman policy of stopping immigrants and refugees from our own oil wars from entering Britain - Powellism brought to fruition
A few more drowned children pulled from the sea is has to make people realise what an incredibly vicious decision that was - surely!
Brexit was a major factor in the rise of racist-inspired Fascism in Europe - is that what you people want ?
None of you flag-waggers have the bottle to address any of those facts - not one of you
Now for the schoolyard insulting - your turn Iains
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:53 AM

"What astounding ignorance!"
How is this
The people of Blackpool overwhelmingly don't want fracking - that seems to be general wherever it is proposed
The Council (for once) listened to what the people said and the Government overturned it - exactly the opposite of Brexit where "the people's will" (or a large enough minority of it) committed Britain to a suicidal policy - the Govenment's response - the people's will has to be adhered to"
Fracking is based on using fossil fuels - if you want to see the consequences of continuing to do so - look out of the window
One of Thatcher's ploys in closing down the mining industry was what the continued use of coal would do to the environment - yet now we have more ways of fouling pu the planet - fracking being just that - what happened to the people's will there?
What astounding ignorance is right
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:25 AM

So the Express manages to dig up a European malcontent to big up the notion that some countries would like to break the trading rules that every EU member has signed up to as a condition of membership. You only have to read something like this...

She also warned that with the recent history of Soviet Union domination "The last thing Central Europeans wish for is being the guinea pigs of another foreign power’s experiment in creating a nationless superstate run by unelected bureaucrats."

...to realise that she's talking out of her arse. Unelected bureaucrats have never run anything in the EU and never will. And she appears to have forgotten that nation states have a veto over major changes that they don't want.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:36 AM

Jim Carroll:
Brexit was sold on the inhuman policy of stopping immigrants and refugees from our own oil wars from entering Britain - Powellism brought to fruition
A few more drowned children pulled from the sea is has to make people realise what an incredibly vicious decision that was - surely!
I don’t recall any oil wars with Europe, which is where Brexit will reduce immigration from. Perhaps you’d care to enlighten me.

One of Thatcher's ploys in closing down the mining industry was what the continued use of coal would do to the environment
As has been pointed out many times here. 211 mines were closed under Harold Wilson in the years 1965-1970 (six years). 154 were closed under Margaret Thatcher 1979-1990 (eleven years). When Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister the coal industry was already in terminal decline.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:41 AM

Lots of squawking! Any eggs boyos?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:42 AM

An Irish view of BoJo the clown and his nonsense about the Irish border.

Boris Johnson is a joke that isn’t funny anymore

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:45 AM

What you're missing, Nigel, is the very different reasons for those two sets of pit closures.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:54 AM

What you're missing, Nigel, is the very different reasons for those two sets of pit closures.
Would you care to clarify that remark? Or is it just personal opinion, as opposed to the hard (and, for some, hard to accept) facts and figures that I quoted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:14 AM

From Wikipedia

In the 1950s and 1960s around a hundred North East coal mines were closed.[19] In March 1968, the last pit in the Black Country closed and pit closures were a regular occurrence in many other areas.[20] Beginning with wildcat action in 1969, the National Union of Mineworkers became increasingly militant, and was successful in gaining increased wages in their strikes in 1972 and 1974.[21] Closures were less common in the 1970s, and new investments were made in sites such as the Selby Coalfield. In early 1984, the Conservative government of Margaret Thatcher announced plans to close 20 coal pits which led to the year-long miners' strike which ended in March 1985. The strike was unsuccessful in stopping the closures and led to an end to the closed shop in British Coal, as the breakaway Union of Democratic Mineworkers was formed by miners who objected to the NUM's handling of the strike.[22] Numerous pit closures followed, and in August 1989 coal mining ended in the Kent coalfield.[23] Since 1981 production fell sharply from 128 to 17.8 million tonnes in 2009.

Prior to the strike there were 20 closures proposed. After the strike the industry was all but shut down entirely.

If that does not highlight the difference between economic and political closures to you then there is no point in anyone else trying to explain.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:15 AM

Sod all to do with brexit of course. Well done for distracting us once again.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:19 AM

Would you care to clarify that remark? Or is it just personal opinion, as opposed to the hard (and, for some, hard to accept) facts and figures that I quoted.


Hansard, Nigel, Hansard.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:24 AM

Sod all to do with brexit of course. Well done for distracting us once again

True enough. I look forward to Nigel, Keith and Iains detailed analysis for May's speech when it is given later today.   No need to mention anything about what 'we want': that is well understood. Just stick to her comments on how we actually get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:37 AM

"As has been pointed out many times here. 211 mines were closed under Harold Wilson in the years 1965-1970 (six years)."
And as has been poined out here and elsewhere hundreds of times it was Thatcher who totally destroyed the industry and smashed the communities that had built up around it
Wilson's rationalization is open to debate - Thatcher's spite against those who wouldn't fall into line is unforgivable
The industry was not in "terminal decline" it became unprofitable and needed a new approach to make it a public facility rasher than a source of profit
Thatcher was a self-declared fascist and her behaviour towards the miners (and British industry as a whole) is that philosophy writ large
She left Britain a country with no industrial feet to stand on, which is what makes Brexit the farce it is
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:50 AM

Thanks, lads. You saved me the bother. I was trying to melt some of the sheet ice that is encasing the whole area so that I could at least get out of the back door! Still got an easterly gale and a minus temperature but it keeps raining and making more ice. I'm very popular with the local feathery dinosaur population owing to the increased distributing of my largesse this morning. Peanuts to me but life-saving for them! I blame brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:56 AM

"What you're missing, Nigel, is the very different reasons for those two sets of pit closures."

Care to enlighten us all shaw? More fiction?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:01 AM

The Nero d'Avolo lasted until after 10 you will be glad to hear, Steve. Had some Stratford Blue cheese as well. Very pleasant. Saw some Shepherds Purse Harrogate Blue but it was a yellow cheese and after your bad experience, I left it where it was. Make the most of it while you can. Cheez Whiz and Budweiser after brexit ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:13 AM

And Hershey's shitty chocolate!

Iains, can't you read? Do try to keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:21 AM

Steve,
You've taken your silly metaphor way too far

It is not a metaphor.
Trials, elections and referendums all are adverarial debates judged by jury or electorate.

Dave,
They are given 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth'. They are advised by a learned judge on any points that may be unclear.
This did not happen with the referendum.

Wrong. In both cases the evidence is put forward by each side and the jury or electorate decide on the basis of that evidence.

DMcG,
And don't forget there is amechanism to appeal decisions if new evidence comes to light or the trial was otherwise faulty.

Not for an election.
In a trial there is a right of appeal to a higher court, but the electorate is the highest court for a referendum or election.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:33 AM

It is compulsory to tell the truth during a trial. Not doing so is a criminal offense in its own right. If that had applied to the referendum half of Westminster would be doing time for perjury.

Steve and DMcG put it nicely about your stupid analogy. I will not be so polite.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:34 AM

DMcG,
And don't forget there is a mechanism to appeal decisions if new evidence comes to light or the trial was otherwise faulty.

Not for an election.

Actually there is, if a candidate breached the rules. There's even some examples reported in the Daily Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:48 AM

The southern Italian reds are my favourites, Dave. Currently, apart from Morrison's Nero d'Avola (six quid unless I hit lucky) there's Peuceta Primitivo at Lidl (£4.99) and M&S Negroamaro, a little beauty, eight quid but I only buy it when it's 25% off six and I can get me daughter's staff discount. Also, Lidl sell a double-size bottle of Nero d'Avola for £7.99 that is brilliant for the money. The single-size bottles aren't as good. We've been to southern Italy and Sicily a good few times and for reds we always go for Nero d'Avola in Sicily and Negroamaro or Primitivo in Italy, especially in Puglia. I suppose brexit will put the prices up. We went through Avola on the bus the year before last. The ancient town was destroyed by an earthquake in 1693 and rebuilt close by to a regular geometric pattern. We were on our way to Noto which has fabulous architecture and the best gelateria in the world (the Caffe Sicilia). Great place, Europe, full of great people, great history and great culture. I've yet to speak to anybody there or in Andalucia, where we also go most years, who isn't totally pissed off that we're leaving. What stupidity has been visited on us. Lamentable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:51 AM

Coal mining facts:
Employment figure for coal miners:
1920       1191k miners
1930       910k
1940       744k
1950       593k
1960       607k Con1957-1964 Labour 1964-1970
1970       290k
1980       237k
1990       49k
2000       11k
2010       6k
2016       1k

Note government white paper 1967.
.miningheritage.co.uk/fuel-for-the-future-50th-anniversary-of-the-white-paper-on-uk-fuel-policy/
Highlight. In the next few years(1967) the number of miners is expected to contract by 35000 per year

Bringing Natural Gas on stream, diminished energy prices and UK coal could not compete with imports.
1970    5million tonnes with uniform growth
2000    24million tonnes peaking at
2003    50million tonnes dropping to
2016    5million tonnes (The dash for green)


It is all about economics. (The same reason UK gas reservoirs are fast emptying)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:59 AM

A toon for shaw.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUpZXLXlLuM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 08:03 AM

I am only putting up with this diversion while waiting for the speech from She Who Must (snigger!) Be Obeyed.

Iains' link should be to here.

As to whether his is the highlight of the article is a matter of taste. You could as easily pick "The Government are determined that the industry's continuing contraction shall take place with the least possible hardship in mining communities" and it goes on to say how they will achieve that (TM take note.) It is not a sentiment you associate with the Thatcher years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 08:22 AM

Open Britain's letter to Teresa May

If, as I hope but he has not promised, Iains writes up his thoughts later today about Teresa May's speech, the points raised in it might be useful.

If he or any other Brexit supporter does write up some comments, I hope they will indeed be their comments, not just a cut and paste or link to Guido, the daily mail or wherever.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 08:39 AM

I did try to undivert slightly at the end of my wine eulogy...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 08:57 AM

Dave,
It is compulsory to tell the truth during a trial.

Politicians' careers suffer when they are caught lying.
No actual lies have been exposed from that debate to my knowledge.
Are you aware of any?
(Not the bus statement please. We all now know how that has been justified, if not to everyone's satisfaction. Any others?)

DMcG
Actually there is, if a candidate breached the rules.

No-one breached any referendum rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 09:01 AM

Too busy listening to TMs speech to respond to that in detail, Keith. I await your review of it when it ends in 30mins or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 09:30 AM

The debate about lies and half truths has been done to death. Here is one for a start. There are plenty more but I am not jumping through any more of your hoops.

The demonstrably false claims of the EU referendum campaign

Now, Fuck off Keith.

I told you I would not be as polite.


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 09:49 AM

Here in the UK we're getting a little taste of life after we've left the EU following El Trumpo's decision to slap a 219% tariff on Bombardier, so jeopardising 4,000 jobs in the North of Ireland.

Not trump's decision, but an attempt by Boeing. US courts through it out, so not even an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 09:55 AM

I seem to have inadvertently responded to an old post as if new.
Sorry.

Dave, I expect nothing better than playground abuse from you, you sad man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 10:01 AM

No comment on the link I posted though.

And it isn't playground abuse, it's proper Lancashire abuse with a hint of Yorkshire. None of your namby pamby Hertford bollocks.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 10:13 AM

Dave, the playground is where we all learned that abuse, and it is all I expect from a sad case like you.

I had already responded to the bus claim.
None of the others seemed worth responding to.
Which would you most like addressed?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 10:16 AM

Careful now, Dave, I have in-laws in Hertford...

Well she went into a bit of detail, she handed out the odd veiled threat, she repeatedly told the EU that what's in our interests is also in theirs, that she wants frictionless, tariff- free trade (wot she can't have because of that customs union hostage-to-fortune red line bollix), she wants regulatory alignment now but which she has the option to walk away from later (that's a laugh, is that), and she gave us nowt new about the Irish border, just a bit of waffle about automation or something. She told us a lot of what she wants but not how she's going to get it, most of which she won't. EU reaction is going to be interesting. She sounded like an automaton and at one point I thought she might be nodding off. And after 21 months of her not getting on with it she demanded that we get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 10:43 AM

None of the others seemed worth responding to.

There we have it. It is an inconvenient truth so not worth responding to. You said there were no lies told in the referendum campaign. I have just liked you to some and there are many more where that came from. There is no point in discussing anything with you so the only option left is a good bit of honest abuse.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 11:36 AM

If we must leave, then EU27 must keep tbe leave campaign's promise and give Turkey immediate unconditional membership. If they do not if I and others like me are not granted 100% of EU membership benefits they are as bad as fagarse.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 11:53 AM

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/926319/Brexit-news-Theresa-May-speech-European-Union-EU-UK


and

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/926303/eu-news-dutch-prime-minister-mark-rutte-federal-europe-brussels-jean-claude-junck

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 12:16 PM

How disappointing, Iains. I specifically wanted your views and said don't just link to articles that others have written. With a link you might agree with it all, or most. And if it not 100% agreement there is no clue where you diverge.

So, for example, what do you think about May's proposal to accept EU regulations? Or indeed any other part of rhe speech? In your own words, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 12:18 PM

... accept in some contexts, I should have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 12:24 PM

Far too soon. The text needs to be digested. You know that I prefer facts, unlike some others I could name.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 12:39 PM

When is May going to stop posturing and realise that as far as EU27 she is nothing but a worthless nobody and because as a result of her actions,and nobody else, the EU owes her absolutely nothing. She should be crawling on her hand and knees and begging her betters for each and every concession in UK's favour.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 12:42 PM

Ok. Can I take that as an implied promise to post your own account without links or cut and paste in the next day or so?

I watched the speech so could give my own impression now, as Steve did. If you have to read the text that may not be possible yet. So I will hold off to let you and Keith and Nigel and others say what you thought of it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 01:23 PM

Here's Jonathan Freedland on the Guardian webs, on the Irish border issue:

"Pity poor Theresa, forced to tell the rest of Europe – as she did again today – that Britain will leave the single market and customs union yet will allow no hard border in Ireland and no border in the Irish sea. It's like me insisting that I will be beach-body ready by the summer while maintaining my cast-iron commitment to doing no exercise and eating what I want. Solomon himself could not resolve that one."

She now seems to want to make so many compromises, apropos of pharmaceuticals and the aviation industry, for example, even paying money in order to be associate members of deals with those sectors, among many other things, that it looks like brexit just isn't worth it. We are a damn sight better off where we are, setting aside all ideologies on both sides, and I'm sure that the EU response to the speech will confirm that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 01:39 PM

The EU itself has produced a report explaining how a frictionless border can be created whatever the final Brexit settlement.

The threat of a hard border is at best disingenuous but at worst, and most likely, mischievous and dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 01:59 PM

I am ready to talk about that EU report, if you are. Shall we start with section 4.4?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 02:32 PM

4.4 is about the technology to be used.
I am not qualified to comment, but I am sure they know what they are talking about.
The main points of the report are these,

"TThis study, commissioned by the European Parliament's Policy Department for Citizens' Rights and Constitutional Affairs at the request of the AFCO Committee, provides background on cross-border movement and trade between Northern Ireland and Ireland and identifies international standards and best practices and provide insights into creating a smooth border experience. The technical solution provided is based on innovative approaches with a focus on cooperation, best practices and technology that is independent of any political agreements on the EU's exit from the EU and offers a template for future UK-EU border relationships."

also,"Finally, the solution presented aims to be one that can be implemented regardless of the political agreement reached over the UK's departure from the EU. This solution needs to build on standards, technologies and best practices and take innovative approaches to solving border issues. It should also be scalable and can provide the basis for future UKEU border relationships."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 02:43 PM

You notice the keyword there is 'smooth'. Not open. 4.4 talks about things like ANPR which we have been told won't be installed It also talks about things like RFID which is the sort of technology used for Oystercards, contactless phones etc. That all relies on readers, just like with the gates on the Underground. it is possible to do that 'smoothly' as most passengers on the Underground will attest. What is not possible it to do it without infrastructure, which Teresa May has ruled out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:39 PM

The key word is infrastructure. This can mean different things to different people.One meaning is the basic physical and organizational structures and facilities (e.g. buildings, roads, power supplies) needed for the operation of a society or enterprise. A more modern meaning would give a wider definition to encompass the facilities required for the modern electronic age.
Motorway tolls would be a perfect example. Today the barriers and toll collectors can be dispensed with the adoption of pre or post use billing, utilising electronic technology. Clock a numberplate and automatically it cab be placed on a database for all kinds of "nefarious" purposes involving the subsequent filching of money.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:56 PM

'Clocking a number plate' requires a cctv camera at or close to every crossing point. Installing that infrastructure has been ruled out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:20 PM

Just as easy to fit tracking devices on trucks. Probably many have them already. The GPS would enable border crossing to be monitored.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:30 PM

That is easily circumvented by those who wish to. It is ripe for exploitation.

Anyone digested May's speech yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:35 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:24 AM

Sod all to do with brexit of course. Well done for distracting us once again

As ever, you ignore the fact that the subject was brought up by one who appears to be on your side in this debate: Jim Carroll.
I was just rebutting his comments.

Please try to keep up with the actual conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:48 PM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 09:30 AM
The debate about lies and half truths has been done to death. Here is one for a start. There are plenty more but I am not jumping through any more of your hoops.

The demonstrably false claims of the EU referendum campaign

Now, Fuck off Keith.

I told you I would not be as polite.

DtG

I'm not sure whether you read the link before quoting, but it includes lies by the Remainers, as well as by the Brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 03:02 AM

I have already said on many occasions that there were lies and half truths on both sides, Nigel. The whole point was that one of 'your side' as you put it insists that no lies were told at all and even in the light of overwhelming evidence is still saying the same. Glad that you can see that the lies were abundant.

As to your previous post to DMcG, he had simply copied a post I had made earlier so your 'do keep up' remark needs to be bounced right back at you. And it still has sod all to do with brexit even if 'he started it Miss'.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 03:26 AM

Do keep up

I try my best, just as I try to keep this thread talking about 'Post Brexit' - not the referendum, not Michael Foot's attire and not wine.

I make the odd slip up myself, naturally: we are all human. But I do try.
So the current topics are Teresa May's speech and whether the EU paper on borders could resolve the Irish boarder issues.

Over to you, Nigel: we await your comments on those.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 04:47 AM

'Clocking a number plate' requires a cctv camera at or close to every crossing point. Installing that infrastructure has been ruled out.

It does not have to be installed close to the border. Just covering the approaches to urban areas, and they already exist in the North.

That is easily circumvented by those who wish to. It is ripe for exploitation.

Only on a small scale, and that happens now and always has.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 05:06 AM

For those, like me, who cannot stand to listen to the damned woman here is the full speech in text

May's speech

To me it is typical political doublespeak. I seldom trust anything politicians say and trust maid May and her merry men even less. There are however a couple of things that have stuck with me. The first is the line

"We must bring our country back together, taking into account the views of everyone who cares about this issue, from both sides of the debate.".

To me, this is vital. The division caused by this is horrendous and, at its worst, caused the death of a young woman and an unprecedented rise in hate crime. We must work to heal these rifts. This does not mean those against brexit should roll over and play dead. Far from it, we should work tirelessly to make the best of a bad job but it should be without antagonism. I don't doubt that those for leave, particularly on here, will continue to repeat the 'tough shit, you lost' mantra but as even May and BoJo seem to understand that the concerns of all must be addressed then I will give them the benefit of the doubt and hope for a sensible arrangement. We shall see.

The second thing is that it mentions new agreements with the EU and the rest of the world. As a globalist I find this quite optimistic. The world has limited resources. They should be metered out to the whole world, not just to powerful trading conglomerates. If there is one single piece of good that could come out of us leaving the EU then it should be the strengthening of the global economy. Of course that could entail a single global market, customs union and global freedom of movement. Wouldn't that be lovely for those who want the borders closing :-) Again, we can only wait and see.

Overall, I don't feel the speech did much, if anything, to strengthen our position but it did give me a bit of hope in unexpected ways. Of course it could be just politicians lying to us again but we are used to that.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 05:24 AM

That is easily circumvented by those who wish to. It is ripe for exploitation.

Only on a small scale, and that happens now and always has.

While my main objection to most of the proposals around the Irish border is to ensure we do not recreate the Troubles, I also have no wish to incentivise criminal activity along the border. Things are 'small scale' precisely because the regulations are and have always been sufficiently similar so the profit opportunities are small. The greater the difference in regulation or taxation, the greater the potential profit and so the greater the attractiveness to the criminal mind.

Remember a border is not just about taxation. It is also about such things as fake goods and keeping out 'the bad guy'. So any scheme that neglects that second aspect is inherently flawed. Number plate recognition, for example, can spot which vehicles were where and when, but tells you nothing about who or what was in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 08:28 AM

I feel remiss in not thanking you for your views on May's speech, Dave. If you don't mind I will wait for some contributions from 'the other side' before saying much. But I do agree with you that whatever happens we will have to find ways of getting along together, irrespective of how we voted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 09:17 AM

DMcG, there are hundreds of roads crossing the border, mostly remote B roads and country lanes.
The border always has been porous and always will, but technology will make it harder for the crooks to get away with it.

BBC 2001,
"During 2001 customs officers in Northern Ireland seized thousands of gallons of smuggled diesel, millions of smuggled cigarettes, bootleg liquor, fake CDs, DVDs, computer games and football team merchandise. "

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 09:28 AM

No need for thanks DMcG but it is apprecuiated :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 09:48 AM

That doesn't sound terribly small scale to me, Keith, but these things are all relative. Even so, I don't see how making the rewards for such crimes bigger will do anything but increase it.

You also seem to have more faith in technology than I have. I, on the other hand, am convinced given the right incentive and return, people are pretty good at outwitting it.

For example, were I so inclined and we uses your ANPR in urban areas idea, I would simply change vehicle outside the urban area.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 09:49 AM

DMcG, why single out one person to thank for giving their views.
That is what we all do.
I hope you are not joining or forming a clique.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 09:53 AM

I singled him out because I asked everyine for views on May's speech and he has done so. Rest assured when you post yours in similar detail and in your own words as he has done, I will also thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 10:00 AM

For example, were I so inclined and we uses your ANPR in urban areas idea, I would simply change vehicle outside the urban area.

Yes, and that is what they do now because the cameras are already in place.
These are smuggling rackets, just a minute proportion of legitimate international trade.

After Brexit legitimate trade will whiz across the border unhindered as it does now. That is all that is required by EU.
May has again stated emphatically that will happen, but EU and Remainers just won't take yes for an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 10:10 AM

I am going to be busy for a good few hours now. Someone else may want to elaborate on the difference between saying what you want and knowing a way to achieve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 10:16 AM

They do not just say they want it, they are pledging it.
They know how to do it and so does EU because it is in their own report!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 10:58 AM

My take on the PM's speech is that it does not really take us any further forward.
I would prefer to see the economics of the situation revolving around brexit given far more prominence, because that is where the meat of the discord arises.
Some facts.
EU exports to UK $353170 million    #2 after US
Non agricultural $300000 million
Agricultural    $50000 million

UK exports to EU $214076 million
Non agricultural $196122 million
Agricultural $17194 million

The European countries that trade the most with the UK, and which will be most affected by Brexit, are Germany, the Netherlands and France.
When considering only agri-food trade. France and the Netherlands are the main UK partners, and Ireland replaces Germany in the top three by bilateral trade value. The three main partners account for half of UK imports and exports in the agri-food sectors.
The UK is the third largest export market for Germany after US and France.

France is by far the largest recipient of CAP funding 10054952i(n 1000 EUR). This is about the equivalent of the UK contribution to the EU (once Peter and Paul have both robbed and rewarded)
The statistics clearly demonstrate the EU will be left hurting if they do not stop their stupid games. Ireland will be damaged the most severely unless the EU get around a table and negotiate. The EU knows full well the sensitivity of the border and the peace process. They are being deliberately provocative and should be told in no uncertain terms that the porosity of the border is a matter for Ireland and the UK to resolve. All I see so far is a lot of hot air and posturing on both sides.
Walking away without an agreement will impact the EU far more financially than the UK. This needs to be hammered home to them.
The threat of no more Vorsprung durch Technik, and no more froggie food really ought to get them around a table pronto!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 11:36 AM

Don't worry about Keith, DMcG. He just always needs recognition. He doesn't do analysis of things like May's speech though in case he gets it wrong. Heaven forbid.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 12:42 PM

So, how will ANPR show the nationality of people crossing the border? How will ANPR work out if any goods being transported are subject to duties? Why should a single penny be spent on infrastructure before 100% of the austerity cuts to Ealing have been reversed? If the leavers want to pay for it out of their own pockets that would be more acceptable. If there is going to be an open borde between NI and the EU there must also be an open border betwwen the rest of UK and the EU, or else it proves that May (and everyone who kept her in power)is a racist by directly discriminating against most of the UK just to cling to power.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 01:23 PM

how will ANPR show the nationality of people crossing the border?
There is no requirement for that.

How will ANPR work out if any goods being transported are subject to duties?

That is not a problem. The current situation is that no checks are made for duty or tax payable now.

Why should a single penny be spent on infrastructure before 100% of the austerity cuts to Ealing have been reversed?

28 governments think it necessary.

If the leavers want to pay for it out of their own pockets that would be more acceptable.

We don't.

If there is going to be an open borde between NI and the EU there must also be an open border betwwen the rest of UK

The EU report say the border they envisage can indeed be scaled up for that purpose.
Depending on the trade terms, no borders may be required anyway, but so far EU refuse to discuss the trade terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 02:15 PM

I only have a moment between events, but as promised:

Thanks for that, Iains. Identifying significant things omitted from the speech is also important.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 07:28 PM

This from Michael Heseltine today:

Tory hopes of uniting the party behind Theresa May's latest vision for Brexit faded as former deputy prime minister Michael Heseltine dismissed her latest speech as just more "phrases, generalisations and platitudes" which had done nothing to make a deal more likely.

While most Conservative MPs and peers gave the prime minister a period of grace after Friday's address, Heseltine said all May had done was offer more detail on a set of demands that the European Union had made clear all along it would never agree to.

Talking to the Observer, he said: "The speech just moves us further down the cherry-picking road. It set out the cherries that Britain wants to pick but that approach completely ignores the fact that the EU has said, 'sorry there is no cherry picking'.”

He added: "Why is it that after 18 months since the referendum we have not got any closer with these issues? The answer is simple: because no one has got any answer about how to do it."

He said the huge gulf between what May was asking for and what the EU would be prepared to give was as wide, if not wider, than ever, leaving UK businesses in despair, and with no option but to consider postponing investment, or placing their money and plans elsewhere.

"While that gap remains industry will continue to make assumptions that will involve moving investment from here to the continent," he said.



A lifelong europhile, Heseltine conceded that the prime minister was in a difficult position, as rightwing Tory MPs held "a knife to her throat".

But neither the prime minister nor her cabinet had made any progress on the central Brexit problems, including the Irish border, because such issues were essentially not solvable unless the UK stayed in the EU.

The only way forward, he said, was for the issues to be put back to parliament, and then to an election or referendum. "The downsides are becoming more evident as time passes. We have had a serious devaluation of the currency. We have turned ourselves from the fastest growing to the slowest growing economy in Europe and we have made a complete Horlicks of the Irish border. I am totally with the view of Tony Blair and John Major that this matter has got to go back to parliament and possibly to a referendum or a general election."

I hate Heseltine, but I could hardly have put it better myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 07:30 PM

Sorry, I might have pruned that a bit but I hit submit instead of preview. It stands, though, I reckon.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 08:40 PM

And, let's face it, the freedom to make trade deals across the globe gives us the freedom to make trade deals with a bloke in America who has spent the the last couple of days coming out with outrageous protectionist bullshit about steel imports and European cars and who sez that trade wars are good, and with the recently-declared biggest dictatorship the world has ever seen. Good, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 03:02 AM

So here is my take on Teresa May's speech. I am certainly not going to comment on the thing line by line, but I think I need to write in at least as much detail as anyone else. I will adopt the convention that sections in italics are direct quotations of her speech, not from other posters.

=====

Overall, I agree with Iains' comment that "it does not really take us any further forward". It seemed to me a very fragile thing: a shade more solid than a bubble, but still terribly weak. And it did not seem to be to be particularly directed at Europe. Instead, it was aimed at convincing the UK that the Tories had a united vision, and to that end it warned both the wings of the party not to rock the boat and offered them a few promises.


, it must protect people's jobs and security. People in the UK voted for our country to have a new and different relationship with Europe, but while the means may change our shared goals surely have not - to work together to grow our economies and keep our people safe

The word 'different' leaps out. Not much sense of sunny uplands there. No vision of a Britain bestriding the world. Just 'different'. That is about as low key a promise as you could make. Then "protecting people's jobs". Remember the Government has already voted against including the existing EU worker's rights in the withdrawal bill. So while it is not spelled out, I think this 'protection' is the desire to get trade deals which need workers in the UK. The promise is the search for jobs, not any effort to protect whatever job you have. For example I see no commitment to the working hours limit in that 'protection', nor anything to suggest more protections for zero hours worker.

We must bring our country back together, taking into account the views of everyone who cares about this issue, from both sides of the debate. I think Dave picked out this one. Despite a deep bitterness and sense of division over this topic, we need a sense of perspective. Unlike many countries or our own past, this is a long way from a civil war. Jo Cox aside, this is a blood-free argument. And I think deep down most people recognise a 'muddling-through' aspect to this. Life after Brexit will not be as bleak as some on the remain side think, not will it be the huge success some leavers think. It will be somewhere in between. And eventually we will find a way to get on together. It may be a long time before that is complete - there are still divisions between some towns in the UK that follow the lines of the Viking borders - but we will reach a working arrangement eventually. Though I will not be in the least surprised if there are still occasional 'blame it on Brexit' remarks two or three decades from now.

Successive British governments have worked tirelessly - together with all the parties in Northern Ireland and with the Irish Government - to bring about the historic achievement of peace.

This is an achievement that we should all be proud of, and protect. That is why I have consistently put upholding the Belfast Agreement at the heart of the UK's approach.

Our departure from the EU causes very particular challenges for Northern Ireland, and for Ireland. We joined the EU together 45 years ago. It is not surprising that our decision to leave has caused anxiety and a desire for concrete solutions.

We have been clear all along that we don't want to go back to a hard border in Ireland. We have ruled out any physical infrastructure at the border, or any related checks and controls.

But it is not good enough to say, 'We won't introduce a hard border; if the EU forces Ireland to do it, that's down to them'. We chose to leave; we have a responsibility to help find a solution.

But we can't do it on our own. It is for all of us to work together. And the Taoiseach and I agreed when we met recently that our teams and the Commission should now do just that.

This is a bit of mixed bag. There is a repeat of the promise that there will be no infrastructure at the border. That is, no ANPR, no RFID readers, no stopping and inspecting of vehicles. [There was a clarification in the past that the Government regards CCTV as 'physical infrastructure']   There is equally a direct dismissal of the idea that if the EU has a border it has nothing to do with us. Any border, whoever builds it, is an unacceptable border.

However, it remains completely opaque how this can be achieved, merely saying we all need to work together to find a solution. Remember the legal version of the text is only a few weeks away.

My personal guess is that there will be a 'zero infrastructure' border just as there is now and that the Government will accept a form of words that in practice is equivalent to the current EU proposal, but with a sufficient minor tweak to allow them to claim it isn't. For example, I am sure the 'Trusted Trader' scheme will be in there in some form.

Life is going to be different. In certain ways, our access to each other's markets will be less than it is now
Again different, rather than better. And an acceptance that in some ways at least things will be worse. Grown up language.

It also means that the ultimate arbiter of disputes about our future partnership cannot be the court of either party.
An easily missed one, this. Parliament will not be supreme here: we are not as 'in control' as some might like.

And in other areas like workers' rights or the environment, the EU should be confident that we will not engage in a race to the bottom in the standards and protections we set. There is no serious political constituency in the UK which would support this - quite the opposite.
Again, actions speak louder than words. This has been voted against very recently. I will believe it if it forms part of the international treaty. I will have some, but less, confidence if it is part of domestic law. With neither, just empty words I am afraid.

The UK will need to make a strong commitment that its regulatory standards will remain as high as the EU's. That commitment, in practice, will mean that UK and EU regulatory standards will remain substantially similar in the future.
A cake and eat it moment, I think. If the UK decided that its standards were to be at least as high as the EU, and a suitable confirmation scheme was in place, that would be possible. If, however, in any area the UK regulation were not as strict as the EU, the whole system explodes. And this is where the US trade deal with its differing food standards raises its head.

In some cases Parliament might choose to pass an identical law - businesses who export to the EU tell us that it is strongly in their interest to have a single set of regulatory standards that mean they can sell into the UK and EU markets.

If the Parliament of the day decided not to achieve the same outcomes as EU law, it would be in the knowledge that there may be consequences for our market access.


This is a particularly good example of making promises to each side that they think they can live with, but actually leaving the whole thing unresolved. The Remain side are being offered that laws could be identical to the EU, and, via the Withdrawal Bill, that is where they will start. So the Remainers can be happy that we overcome a big hurdle on dealing with the EU. Moreover, it can only be altered by Parliament, so it is protected.

Conversely, the Leavers recognise that as long as the commitment to have the same laws is not part of the treaty, Parliament can change them. And even if the opportunity does not come for 10 or 20 years they have played the waiting game before: in the end they will be able to change it to whatever they want.

I can see the internal desirability of this slight of hand; there is not a cat in hell's change the EU will go along with it, in my opinion.

We will also want to explore with the EU, the terms on which the UK could remain part of EU agencies such as those that are critical for the chemicals, medicines and aerospace industries: the European Medicines Agency, the European Chemicals Agency, and the European Aviation Safety Agency.

An important recognition that this is the only sensible way of dealing with these topics ...

And, of course, Parliament would remain ultimately sovereign. It could decide not to accept these rules, but with consequences for our membership of the relevant agency and linked market access rights
... but immediately slam the brakes on and reverse.

A generation from now what will be remembered is not the rough and tumble of negotiation but whether we reached an enduring solution cast in the interests of the people we are all here to serve.

So my message to our friends in Europe is clear.

We know what we want. We understand your principles. We have a shared interest in getting this right. So let's get on with it

Wouldn't it have been nicer if she could have said 'what will be remembered is how we reached ..' rather than 'whether'.


=====


So what will happen next? As I say, it seems fragile. Rees-Mogg can certainly say he is comfortable with it because the UK Parliament is in charge (with a few exceptions). If an interviewer is astute enough to question him about how much Parliament can subsequently change he will confirm it can most of any agreement based on this - and the bubble of unity bursts.

By and large, I don't think the EU will see much useful in it, so in a matter of weeks much will be overturned. It is certainly nowhere near a legal text corresponding the December agreements, nor is it an informal explanation of such a text.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 04:36 AM

I think you are quite right DMcG and thanks for substantiating my trite summary, 'doublespeak', so clearly.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 06:51 AM

I have just watched "Soft Border Patrol" which covers in depth how the invisible border can be achieved.
It is available on BBC iPlayer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 07:04 AM

It would have been nicer had she said that, in view of all this, and especially in view of the fact that many of these aspirations will either not be achieved, or, at best, will be seriously diluted, I've concluded that the brexit game simply isn't worth the candle and that this county's best interests would be served by staying where we are and fighting for root and branch reform of the EU. Indeed, we could make that our condition for remaining. After all, it's crystal clear that that is what the EU wants us to do, remain a member. I shall be calling all the party leaders to an urgent meeting in Downing Street to put this to them and to form a temporary and informal coalition designed to achieve that goal.


Wishful thinking? I wouldn't bet on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 08:14 AM

From the iPlayer description of "Soft Border Patrol":

Comedy mockumentary following the independent cross-border body as they deal with bodies crossing the border, be they human, animal or fish.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 08:27 AM

Comedy?
Mockumentary?
Who would have known?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 08:40 AM

"A brand new comedy set on that stretch of land where the EU meets the UK. Shadowing the Soft Border Patrol, the fictional border agency backed by governments in London, Dublin, Belfast and Brussels, this hilarious mockumentary monitors those who monitor those who are caught between a rock and a soft place. Does a plank across a stream constitute an illegal border crossing? Is chorizo still legal in Northern Ireland? Thankfully the SBP are here to provide information and clarification."

Obviously beyond the wit of our feeble-minded BrexShitter to recognise a piss-take when he sees it!

Bwwwaaaaaaaahahahahaaaaa! ??????????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 09:26 AM

"Soft Border Patrol":
Still laughing at the idea of "Free State fish" swimming up Irish rivers
A real 'in-depth, information packed' documentary
Can't wait for the be-sashed salmon singing "the scales my father wore"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 10:59 AM

" this county's best interests would be served by staying where we are and fighting for root and branch reform of the EU. Indeed, we could make that our condition for remaining."

If that ideal could be made a reality, I suspect a clear majority would support it. But I cannot see the EU making the commitment.

My view of the future is that the drive towards centralism, driven by a blinkered bureaucracy, will finally self destruct the entire edifice.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 12:30 PM

Steve, thought I was on to a winner. Local Spar shop. Nero d'Avolo, 3.99 a bottle of 3 for a tenner. Not a patch on Mossers. Glad I only bought 1. Slightly musty Ribena is the nearest I can describe it as. I'm sure by the 3rd it will taste better.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 12:36 PM

BWM,
Obviously beyond the wit of our feeble-minded BrexShitter to recognise a piss-take when he sees it!

Obviously beyond yours!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 12:39 PM

Easy mistake to make Keith. You are not known for your sense of humour. Lots of other things, yes. Humour, no.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 01:38 PM

He's a bag of wind and piss, Dave. And feeble-minded.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 05:28 PM

The cheap Spar Nero didn't get any better I'm afraid. Had to break into my reserve supply of Black Sheep instead.

Ah well. It was only £3.99

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 05:51 PM

Thing is, Iains, the EU definitely wants us to stay. But the EU thinks we're leaving. They will make things as difficult as possible for us to leave, pour encourager les autres. On the other hand, if they think we may stay, which would be massively in their interests, they will have to listen to any demands for reform. They didn't do that when Cameron made his ill-fated sortie before the referendum because they didn't see the need to give us anything: neither the EU nor Cameron thought for one second that we would vote to leave, so why would they. But it's different now. And I believe there is a groundswell for reform in Europe. The UK in a reformed EU is in everybody's interests. And nothing else comes close.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 06:46 PM

Nero d'Avola is produced in huge quantities every year in Sicily, Dave. It's the country wine of Sicily and it's what you get everywhere if you ask for the house red. It's never that complex, but at its best it's a fruity glass of Sicilian sunshine. As always there'll be the odd poor specimen. I'm not keen on the Lidl single-bottle one. I haven't tried yer Spar one. Another great Sicilian one is Nerello Mascalese which is grown on the volcanic soils on the flanks of Mount Etna. We had grand ones in Sicily but it's usually a bit pricey this end. Wotwine likes the Morrison's one but we didn't like it much. One man's fish is another man's poisson...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 06:34 AM

Sorry for the distraction again DMcG but things seem to have fizzled out on the May speech front. No surprise really. It was a bit of a damp squib and I suspect our resident brexiteers have realised the same.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 06:44 AM

The garden of Eden is growing a few weeds!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/05/italy-turns-back-on-europe-as-election-points-to-hung-parliament

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 06:56 AM

Not too much of a problem, Dave. The next event of significance is likely to be the EU rejecting the UK proposal (expected tomorrow) and then to-ing and fro-ing for a few weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:07 AM

An article in todays Guardian by Polly Toynbee which may have slipped under the radar suggests that Business Leaders in the UK are privately "speaking of a disaster ahead" and "looming job losses"

Not at all encouraging news.

Disaster Ahead?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:24 AM

What rational person would take the slightest notice of a left wing rag like the Guardian. You would get more sense off private eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:35 AM

What rational person would take the slightest notice of a left wing rag like the Guardian.

Says the man who constantly quotes The Daily Heil and Guido. Well done, Iains, your use of irony is truly magnificent :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:42 AM

We had this discussion a matter of days ago Iains and I provided links which clearly show the Guardian is not only one of the most trusted newspapers but is clearly not left wing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 08:45 AM

The situation in Italy will very likely put a eurosceptic coalition in power. That's going to have a negative impact on the UK's brexit aspirations. The Italians will be watching proceedings like hawks for any sign of EU concessions or fudges. Of course, the other bad news is Trump's protectionist grandstanding. So much for a special deal with the yanks then. I mean, how much more of this stuff will it take for brexiteers to see the light?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 09:04 AM

It's difficult to see the light when looking backwards through rose tinted specs, Steve.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:10 AM

Every reporter has bias. The problem is to recognise how much. To say a source is trusted is an opinion - how do you prove it?
Better to confirm from several sources. Sadly sometimes the MSM will not cover a story and then the internet, RT, Al Jazeera and other sources need to be perused.
Many here seem to accept the offerings of certain publications as absolute truth. I think the bible gives the lie to that assumption.
Even the BBC is demonstrably biased

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:16 AM

"Many here seem to accept the offerings of certain publications as absolute truth. I think the bible gives the lie to that assumption."

I can think of only one who considers the bible at all Iains.

However some news sources are regarded as more reliable than others. The Mail and the Sun often don't come close.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:22 AM

"We had this discussion a matter of days ago Iains and I provided links which clearly show the Guardian is not only one of the most trusted newspapers but is clearly not left wing."

Trusted?
not left wing?

Does not say much for the quality of your links now, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:24 AM

New Mossers opens in St Ives on Thursday, Steve. Any use to you?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:36 AM

Iains, seeing as people on your side of the discussion frequently use the Daily Mail and Guido Fawkes as sources I would consider my main source to be infinitely more reliable.

But then again we are getting away from the subject matter which is Brexit which people on your side seem strangely reluctant to discuss.

Got any good news yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:49 AM

But even the articles selected from the daily mail are chosen with care. For example in the Mail Online at the moment an article saying UK driving licences will not be valid in the EU after Brexit without a specific agreement (though naturally is is presented as the EU being nasty) and another which is about the US selling us goods currently blocked by the protected name scheme.

Those dont seem to be raised for discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 11:05 AM

"Trusted?
not left wing?"
It is certainly trusted - it has nor really been 'left wing' sing teh Manchester Guardian days - one of the reasons it is respected by both left and right
Politically it is on par with teh Independent, but more accessible, in my opinion
Do you hoest;y believe the right wing press to be trustworthy?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 11:29 AM

There is significant right-wing bias at the BBC. Just consider the background of some of the most influential voices. I posted this in this thread on October 20:

"Pity you can't have Jezza Paxo back. All those years at the helm, then we find out that he was a Tory all along. Tsk. Or you could try Andrew Neil, who worked for the Conservatives in his youth and was once the chairman of the Federation of Conservative students, not to speak of his dalliances with those raving Marxists, Murdoch and the Barclay brothers - or how about Nick Robinson, once chairman of the Young Conservatives, or even his former editor Robbie Gibb who used to work for Francis Maude as his chief of staff. Or how about that nice Tory Chris Patten, former chairman of the BBC trust. Or the charming Kamal Ahmed, filched from his post as executive business editor of those rabid leftie papers the Daily and Sunday Telegraph. Flippin' reds under the beds everywhere at the Beeb, eh!"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 12:04 PM

All newspapers have a bias = all of them!

It gets very boring posting the link below - AGAIN
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/07/how-left-or-right-wing-are-uks-newspapers/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 12:09 PM

and yet more happy EU campers! another fine newspaper with an article to upset the remoaners.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/927284/italian-election-result-european-union-silence-M5S-Lega-Nord-Matteo-Salvini-Italexit

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 12:25 PM

Certainly all papers have a bias, as does all media. We have to be alert and compensate for that. But taking your link, for example, if you look at the percentage of people who think the Guardian is 'very left', four of the nationals are 'very right' by a greater extent. Indeed, even the fifth - the Times - is very close to it. (14% rather than 16%). The next paper, the Independent, drops dramatically to 4%.

Conversely, if we look at the Daily Mail, more than twice as many - indeed only a little less than three times as many - think it is 'very right' than think the Guardian is 'very left'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 12:50 PM

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Iains et al are incapable of absorbing anything that is not strictly from their own handbook.

As you rightly say all newspapers and reporters slant stories their own way. If you read the last article that Iains linked to you will find it does not entirely support the headline.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 01:06 PM

Well I think that asking people whether they think newspapers are right- or left-wing is a very unintelligent approach, and I think the results show it. I mean, 12% of people think that the Mail is left-leaning? Almost a quarter think that the Sun is left-leaning? I think I'd be questioning my survey methods at the very least. How do you judge? By the leading article? I wonder how many of the people questioned whether ever read it...

Far better to judge a paper by critically scrutinising the quality of the journalism in its news reporting. Is the headline factual and neutral, or is it over-large, sensational and tendentious (an egregious example of the latter would be "Gotya!" or "Enemies of the people")? Does the body of the report contain opinion, which could be implied by the sensational language used, mixed with news?

Then there's the column writers. Famously, the Guardian invites columnists from the whole spectrum of opinion. It could be that there are more frequent articles from left of centre, of course. I read the Mail from cover to cover approximately once a week. I seldom, if ever, read a piece written by what any of us would call a leftie, and many of the columnists (not all) write in an unashamedly populist, dare I say superficial, style. I challenge anyone reading this to produce a recent Mail column that could be described as promoting a consistently left-wing viewpoint.

Trying to conclude by looking at those aspects of a paper whether it's right-wing or left-wing is too simplistic. I find it a lot easier and more useful to decide, using whatever critical faculties the good Lord has endowed me with, whether a newspaper may be relied on to give me balanced reporting and opinions that may enlighten my own, whether I agree or not, without pushing for that dreaded confirmation bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 01:39 PM

whether they ever

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 05:33 PM

Because I keep a close eye on the pound V euro exchange rate I note that in the last few days the pound has "plummeted"

Well if going up by one half on one percent (less than half a cent) means the pound is soaring then dropping by almost DOUBLE that amount must mean the pound has plummeted doesn't it.

Any good news about Brexit yet .............

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 05:57 PM

Nah. The pound has soared sownward, Raggytash. Get it right!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 06:03 PM

Well you know what I mean. I got a bit distracted by Mary Beard there...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 06:43 PM

I see it's soared down to less than 1.10. Bugger that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:24 PM

St Ives is an hour and a half's drive from me, Dave. It'd almost be like going to the supermarket in Hull if you lived in Radcliffe...

Nice place though. Heaving in summer and you can't expect to park fer nowt!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 04:47 AM

Exchange Rates 18 hours ago,

"Pound Euro Exchange Rate Advances As UK Services PMI Hits Four-Month High"

"Pound Sterling Live 3 days ago,
"the Pound-to-Euro exchange rate is in fact not in remarkable territory. In fact, it is slap-bang in the middle of its long-term range against the Euro; indeed the exchange rate appears to be stuck in a rut with the 1.13 level being a fulcrum in a multi-month range for the exchange rate."

" David Bloom, HSBC's head of foreign exchange research.
Bloom says the market is likely to remain caught around current levels until such a time as some real news on Brexit is made forthcoming. "The UK is renegotiating its position with the EU, let's look at Sterling against the Euro and if you look at that it's as dull as dishwater," says Bloom, "we're waiting for something to happen".
"It looked like Sterling was weakening, weakening, weakening, something happened, it strengthened and if you look at the charts since September last year it's done nothing," adds Bloom."

Express 1 hour
"Pound to euro exchange rate: Promising service sector gains back recent losses
Laura Parsons currency analyst at TorFX explained

Express 2hour,
"Pound V euro: GBP climbs after Italian election triggers shockwaves with anti-EU surge
Jeremy Cook, Chief Economist at WorldFirst shared his optimism on the readings, "

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 05:21 AM

A new study by Cambridge University Centre For Business Research,
HOW THE ECONOMICS PROFESSION GOT IT WRONG ON BREXIT
Ken Coutts, Graham Gudgin and Jordan Buchanan

"In light of these shortcomings it might have been expected that the profession would take extra care to make its assessment of the potential impact of Brexit as fair and accurate as possible. A further failure would add substantially to the questioning of the underlying soundness of economic theory and practice related to forecasting. We argue in this paper that this did not happen and that much of the economic assessment of the impact of Brexit has been flawed, leading to a conclusion that the profession does indeed need to reassess its methods."

"Our conclusion is that most estimates of the impact of Brexit in the UK, both short-term and long-term, have exaggerated the degree of potential damage to the UK economy. We stress at this point that this is not a politically-driven exercise. Most of the four-person team behind the research for this and our other papers voted ‘Remain’ in the 2016 referendum and would do so again if given the chance. Our purpose is rather to establish a sound basis for the ongoing debate on the likely potential economic impact of Brexit, and more generally to question the quality of economic analysis in dealing with major, macroeconomic policy issue like Brexit. "
http://www.cbr.cam.ac.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/centre-for-business-research/downloads/working-papers/wp493.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 05:53 AM

"Bloom says the market is likely to remain caught around current levels until such a time as some real news on Brexit is made forthcoming."

Bloody hell, Raggytash, in that case we'd better panic and buy our holiday money now!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 08:02 AM

An article on the Irish border with little politics, mainly being a plea to recognise the border is not just an economic one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 10:14 AM

With quite a lot of politics actually.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 10:35 AM

Leaving the caption and summary aside, two sentences are concerned with Brexit, by my count, (though you may interpret some sentences differently.) And one of those is a "be sensitive the border" which most of both sides claim they are.

Most of the politics that is there is referring to time before the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 03:09 PM

Leaked EU report seen by Guardian

But probably better to wait for the official document, probably tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 04:27 AM

DMcG, the article is entirely political and dishonest.
The whole premise of the piece is that the border is under threat from the "Brexiteers."

That ignores the fact that the Brexiteers, in the form of the British government are committed, "under no circumstances" to change the Border.

The only people threatening to change it is the EU.
To make it honest you would have to change every reference to "Brexiteers" to "EU," but then the Guardian would not print it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 06:10 AM

Well, we will have to differ on that one. I see it as a message to BOTH sides that there is something of great importance there beyond the economic and BOTH sides need to be wary of how whatever they propose might alter that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 06:21 AM

The EU is simply sticking to the rules for the time being, Keith. Maybe I should remind you that the UK stirred up the border issue (which up to now hasn't actually been an issue at all) by calling a referendum and voting to leave the EU. We have threatened the border. The EU have not threatened anything beyond its long-standing rules apropos of the customs union and single market that we have happily been members of up to now. Trying to shift the blame on to them for the threat of instability in Ireland is just one of many of the thoroughly dishonest tactics of brexiteers. Including you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 06:28 AM

Quite. And the Good Friday Agreement is definitely under threat by the Brexiteers with talk of it having outlived its usefulness.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 06:37 AM

Steve,
We have threatened the border.

No we have not. Our government says unequivocally, under no circumstances will it make any changes to the border.
EU threatens that it will, not us.

DMcG
I see it as a message to BOTH sides that there is something of great importance there beyond the economic and BOTH sides need to be wary of how whatever they propose might alter that.

It is not "BOTH" sides proposing to alter that. Just EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 06:50 AM

The EU has got as far as drafting a legal text for agreement that any deal must preserve the border. That text deliberately leaves open that the UK is free to come up with mutually agreeable alternative mechanisms to achieve it.

The UK hasn't got beyond making speeches on that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 08:17 AM

The UK hasn't got beyond making speeches on that matter.

The speeches have made clear our determination not to change the border under any circumstances.
What else can UK do?
EU so far refuses to discuss what the trade position is going to be anyway!
They have not even got as far as making speeches.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 08:26 AM

What else can the UK do? Well they could write up the (a) and (b) options from December in a legal form, for a start.

You will have heard today, I imagine, the the EU guidelines say they will not start talking trade until the UK has signed a written legal text to protect the Irish border.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 08:32 AM

DMcG, if we get a free trade deal there is nothing to sort out anyway.
We can not write up the (a) and (b) options from December in a legal form until we know what the trade deal will be.
We have done all we can on the border until then.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 08:44 AM

As I say, the EU guidelines say no trade talks until all the commitments made in December have been legally signed up to. So if the UK wants to talk trade and wants to avoid no deal and wants to avoid NI staying in the CU/SM it has to come up with something on (a) and (b). I suspect that need be no more than a commitment to keep working on them. It is a negotiating stance to say you need to talk trade first. It is not essential in itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 10:22 AM

you can not finalise what the border requirements are until you know what the trade terms are.

Britain has at least made clear that we require no border installations in Ireland. EU has not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 10:38 AM

Who said 'finalise'? Getting the next step does not involve finalising anything - just legalling agreeing there will be no hard border if we have a deal. Which is exactly what the speeches are saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 10:42 AM

legalling agreeing there will be no hard border requires both parties.
We have agreed to no hard border, but EU will not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 10:46 AM

From what I remember of my schooldays an agreement is a two part thing. One party cannot have an agreement without the other. Unless we are speaking a different language of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 10:47 AM

Read the legal drafts, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 12:29 PM

Keith is talking as though the Republic hasn't got a dog in this race. It's just ridiculous. The UK UNILATERALLY declaring (not "agreeing," Keith, pur-lease!) that there will be no changes to the border is illegitimate. Fine as an aspiration, invalid as a demand or declaration. The rules are that unless NI is in the customs union there have to be border controls that, under current arrangements, we don't need. That is not a threat. That's the rules. For over four decades the UK has benefited from being in an organisation with that rule. We changed the game by voting leave, not the EU. It's down to us to suggest workarounds, and the EU rejecting those workarounds is not a threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 12:45 PM

Dave,
From what I remember of my schooldays an agreement is a two part thing. One party cannot have an agreement without the other

That was my point Dave. Only one side, us, has so far undertaken no border change. EU will not.

Steve,
Keith is talking as though the Republic hasn't got a dog in this race.

Of course they have. A hard border is the last thing that they want.
But still, EU keeps threatening one.
UK's position is clear. We will not impose a hard border "under any circumstances."
Not an "aspiration" Steve, but a firm commitment.

Ireland can not make such a commitment because it is not independent.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 01:18 PM

Hoops, guys...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 01:47 PM

"But still, EU keeps threatening one."

Parrot.

"Ireland can not make such a commitment because it is not independent."

We are also not independent. Now here's a basic lesson for you, Keith. Are you listening? Good!

Ahem:

A "border" is a thingie with a country on one side and another country on the other side. When both those countries are democracies at peace with each other, they have an equal interest in deciding what happens at that border. When one or both of those countries are part of a larger bloc that has customs arrangements agreed on both sides, then the arrangement can change only if BOTH countries, with the blessing of the larger trading bloc, agree, or if they BOTH leave the bloc. But the larger trading bloc CAN'T BE BLAMED (or accused of issuing threats) if all it does is remind a country wishing to leave of its rules, which have to be maintained in the interests of consistency and fair play among all the countries in the bloc.   It's one hundred percent the doing of the leaving country if border arrangements thereby become problematical. The EU is pointing out the issue that the UK has brought about and is perfectly correct in insisting that its customs rules are not stretched at the whim of one country out of 28.

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 02:26 PM

Ah but, ah but, Keefie's 'Taking Are Cuntry Back', just like Bozo and Haddock-Face told him.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 02:27 PM

"But it is not good enough to say, 'We won't introduce a hard border; if the EU forces Ireland to do it, that's down to them'. We chose to leave; we have a responsibility to help find a solution"

Remember that, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 07:15 PM

It's late. Keith bedtime late. But here's a prediction. Keith will ignore all this reasoned argument put to him and, in the morning, will say that "only the EU is threatening a hard border." I know a man who's taking bets.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 04:34 AM

DMcG,
We chose to leave; we have a responsibility to help find a solution"

We have. Exempt small firms trading across the border from any tariffs, and collect all taxes and duties electronically as is being done now.

The trade is mostly into the North so the Republic would benefit.
There is no need for a hard border but EU still threatens to impose one, presumably just to punish us.

If it was up to the Republic there would be no problem, but they can not act independently because of their membership.
We will be free to leave our side completely open.

If they give us a free trade deal, there is no issue anyway.
A free trade deal would benefit everyone but again, we must be punished whatever the cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 05:50 AM

Ok, I expect this to be my last post on the border question until the EU or the UK representatives or a politician say something else.

Things are only 'help' if both sides agree they are helpful. Until then, they are just suggestions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 06:04 AM

"Republic would benefit."
Since when has it vbeen the job tof a Little Brit to decide what i best for Ireland
Since the Seige of Waterford, of course - thet was 8 centuries ago and now it's a thing of the past
The Brexsit National Front has been whingeing that Britain needs to stand on its own feet yet it is still happy to stamp over everybody else's feet
Mind your own business - you people have done enough damage to Ireland without bribing terrorist linked sectarians to allow you to do more
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 06:14 AM

Jim,
"Republic would benefit."
Since when has it vbeen the job tof a Little Brit to decide what i best for Ireland

I meant the UK would be losing revenue but the Republic would make out of it.

DMcG,
Things are only 'help' if both sides agree they are helpful

One side does not want to be helped.
They want to use the threat of a hard border as a negotiating tool, even though it would hurt their side too.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 07:25 AM

Select committee releases the impact assessments

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 07:32 PM

"I meant the UK would be losing revenue but the Republic would make out of it."
We'be been here before Keith
Brexit has fucked up Britain's economy and has threatened the Union itself
It now stands to set the peace process back several decades
It has brought to the forefront a bigoted dying party which is fighting to keep Ireland in the Dark ages as far as Single Sex Marriage, Pregnancy Termination and the preservation of the Irish Language
Are you seriouly suggesion that such a ******-u nation is in a position to tell Ireland what is good for it and what is not?
You've already insisted that you know better tan the Irish People regarding the border

Go buy a history book - the Empire is dead and Britannia no longer rules the waves - or anywhere T.B.T.G.
"One side does not want to be helped."
See what I meen - how friggin' patonising can you get
I#d stick with bunging billions to terrorist linked parties if I were you - maybe that way at least you'll keep your government for a few weeks longer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 07:50 PM

Keith
"One side does not want to be helped."
Regarding Britain, (or maybe that should be England) I thing you will find that regarding helping anybody, their policy has always been "let's help oourslves" and that is exactly what they have done - helped themselves - to land, to natural resources, to profits from the labour of the indigenous people.... whatever was at hand to be looted
Of all countries, Ireland, Britain's oldest colony, is aware of the consequences of that predatory policy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:11 AM

Tusk says Ireland First : no trade talks until the UK has produced a specific and realistic solution to avoid a hard border.

And, evidently, they do not believe the UK has done so yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:16 AM

I had to laugh at this one:

====÷
Speaking to The House magazine, Mr Gyimah – considered a rising star in the Conservative Party – said: “I guess ultimately we have a workable Brexit or Jeremy Corbyn ends up in Downing Street. And I think that would be a terrible thing for the country.”

=====

An ultimately workable Brexit? How ambitions have fallen!The

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:17 AM

Damnable autotext!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:31 AM

"Of all countries, Ireland, Britain's oldest colony, is aware of the consequences of that predatory policy"

More of the scouser's fairy tales!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 04:28 AM

"More of the scouser's fairy tales!"
Your childish behaviour has just got one thread closed Iains; we don't need a repeat performance to know how childish you are
If you would like to discuss this like an adult, feel free, otherwise, go and play in thee garden with the other kids
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 04:42 AM

DMcG,
the UK has produced a specific and realistic solution to avoid a hard border.

UK will not be imposing one. That is how we will avoid it.
Tusk and the EU should read their own report that specifies how they can avoid one too.
This is just campaign rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 05:03 AM

You can say that as much as you like, Keith. But if that's all the UK says it will never get on to talking trade. At the absolute minimum, it needs to put that in a legally enforceable document.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 05:20 AM

DMcG,
At the absolute minimum, it needs to put that in a legally enforceable document.
Says who? Quote please.

You do not need a legally enforceable document to make no change.
UK is not going to change the border under any circumstances.
It has been shown that it is not necessary in the EU's own report.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 06:04 AM

Ireland/EU want to hinder Brexit and are just being obstructive for the sake of it.
They are refusing to take "Yes" for an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 06:22 AM

"Your childish behaviour has just got one thread closed Iains; we don't need a repeat performance to know how childish you are "

I wonder????????? As Martin said to his man................!
and of course jimmies introduction of his usual Jewish card made no contribution?


There are many arguments to suggest Ireland was not Britain's first colony. Deliberate settlements did not occur until the plantations of the first commonwealth in the 1650's

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 06:23 AM

At the absolute minimum, it needs to put that in a legally enforceable document.
Says who? Quote please

Says me, as far as that being my judgement of what the minimum is likely to be. That a legal agreement is needed: the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 07:38 AM

Says me,

I think you are wrong that it is a requirement by anyone actually involved.
It is a technical not a legal issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 07:49 AM

"Jewish card made no contribution?"
Only antisemites (by definition) confuse Israel with the Jewish People Iains
As I said grow up and take part as an adult or not at all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 08:07 AM


I think you are wrong.

That is always possible - I never claim omniscience. But I think it will we clear by the end of March.

"I may not be right, but I don't thinknI am wrong".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 09:24 AM

Iains, you do really need to read some history of the English presence in Ireland from 1169 onwards. Not only will you learn something but it really is very interesting ............ and at times brutal.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 09:45 AM

DMcG,
Tusk, "“While we must respect this position, we also expect the UK to propose a specific and realistic solution to avoid a hard border. "

Nothing about requiring "a legally enforceable document. "

They just want practical details, ignoring the fact that they already have them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 10:32 AM

Jimmie you made the accusation "I was a squalid holocaust denier"
No evidence to support the accusation just another of your lies.

Why is it that other people are banned from the forum while you continue to make totally outrageous, unsubstantiated allegations with no censure?

Why do the moderators stand back and allow this person to hurl insults and false accusations at people when others are penalised?

Teribus has gone
Greg is on leave? of absence

Was their behaviour so consistently bad as that of Carroll?

Carroll comes out to play with zero consequences

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 12:47 PM

Maybe it is because the moderators can see the truth, Iains.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 12:58 PM

I was referring to your denying the holocaust that is taking place in Syria - no lies, unless you've changed your mind
Anyway - beside the point, it doesn't belong on this thread so take it to the Syrian one - whoops, forgot - you got that closed with your childish behavior didn't you
For fucks sake act like an adult instead ot this stupidly infantile name-calling
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 01:44 PM

"I was referring to your denying the holocaust that is taking place in Syria "
Bullshit!
You clearly stated I was a holocaust denier, There is only one holocaust. You made no attempt to qualify the statement the first time around. Why qualify it now?
You are a disgrace to this forum.

So gnome you fully support his totally unsubstantiated allegations.
That rather demonstrates what sort of character you possess.

Insults are all par for the course below the line but obviously libellous statements are not, and should be censured.

Holacaust deniers have been imprisoned for their beliefs- and rightly so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 01:56 PM

I do not think that this thread is moderated.
Also the Westminster sex thread.

Jim has accused me of defending paedophiles there, and Dave Gnome made a whole series of vulgar or obscene 3 word posts unrelated to anything being discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:49 PM

Holocaust deniers are not imprisoned for their beliefs. They are imprisoned for expressing their beliefs in the form of hate speech. Quite right - throw the bloody keys away. But let people believe what the hell they like as long as they keep it to themselves.

Are you actually sane, Iains? You are by a country mile the most offensive and insulting presence here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 04:17 PM

Unless they expressed their beliefs they could not be recognized as holocaust deniers now could they?you stupid boy! and if you are such a clever little shit, just show me where I have ever denied the holocaust.

Little jimmie is the most offensive and you shaw are the most insulting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 07:10 PM

When talking about Holocaust denial, scarcely the subject of this thread, but hey ho, it's extremely important to distinguish between holocaust and Holocaust. In my view, the capitalised word should mean the one thing only. The non-capitalised word, again in my view, should not be used. There are better words for describing the destruction of people other than the killing of six million Jews by the Nazis.

And thank you, Iains, for confirming to us all what we already know about your insulting and offensive behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 08:26 PM

"I do not think that this thread is moderated."
Nether do I
I think if it was Iain's persistent childish abuse would have stopped a long time ago
"There is only one holocaust. "
WHAT!!!!
are you joking?
The Jewis Holocause =t is defined by teh use of a capital H
This from the Meriam dictioanary
"b : a mass slaughter of people; especially : genocide a holocaust in Rwanda"
The term is now used to describe what happened in former Yugoslavia, in Rwanda and in Ireland during the famine
To my knowledge, yo have never mentioned the Nazi Holocaust - I referred to what is happening in Syria, which you are defending
Can Keith and Iainss take their arguments to the appropriate threads or open up new ones
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 09:39 PM

I am sorry.. I can't be bothered to read through all this twaddle and bullshit. Most of which was probably written by people too young to remember when ENGLAND (stuff the rest of the UK) was free of the oppression imposed by the Common Market. We have spent years subsidising French farmers, Italian goodness knows what makers...

England should never have joined in the first place. All these people bleating on probably don't remember the butter mountains and wine lakes and just to rub your noses in it, if it wasn't for Margaret Thacker England would be a bankrupt nation by now thanks to the EU.. so grow up and get real.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 02:34 AM

Keith (09 Mar 18 - 09:45 AM):

Two things

A) you cannot demonstrate a person did not say something by pointing out a sentence or two in which they did not say it.

B) more importantly this time, the entire discourse was in the context of converting the December agreements into a legal text.


I disagree by the way there is no need tp say something will not change when you are writing up in a legal text what the nature of a relationship will be. Politically as well, a willingness to hold off starting discussions on trade because you are not prepared to put in law what you say you want can only make people suspicious you are not serious. David Davis' willingness to play with words and backtrack on things he has said before makes it far more difficult to just take people's word.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 03:40 AM

Well I'm old enough to remember being a citizen of the sick man of Europe in our pre-EU days, Mick. During our membership we became the fifth largest economy in the world. Once again, no-one will argue that the EU hasn't produced its share of absurdities. Far better to remain, fight for reform and modernise the club. As for oppression imposed, well every member state had the choice of whether to join and, once joined, has a full say in drawing up any new or changed rules, in many cases having the power of veto. We can't have a European army, for example, because the UK says no. Rules and laws are agreed to only by democratically-elected representatives of the member states. By the way, Mick, a word in your shell-like: if you go to NI, Wales or Scotland for your hols, remember to wear a disguise... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 03:45 AM

"Most of which was probably written by people too young to remember when ENGLAND (stuff the rest of the UK) "
Nice one Mick - sums up Little England (and Brexit) in a few lines
Thank for the flattery about our age though - I wish!!
Little England really never has shaken off "The White Man's Burden" image that allowed the Empire to plunder the rest of the world for as long as it did
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 03:50 AM

DMcG,
A) you cannot demonstrate a person did not say something by pointing out a sentence or two in which they did not say it.

I quoted him contradicting it, and no-one can provide a quote of it being said by anyone except you.
No-one actually involved in the negotiation has ever suggested that it is a requirement.

I am off line for a bit now.
Cheers,
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 04:23 AM

Ok Keith, chat later.

But that is not a contradiction of (a) and anyway I said (b) was the important factor.

As Mick says he can't be bothered to read the comments this is as much as I can be bothered to respond.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 04:36 AM

So gnome you fully support his totally unsubstantiated allegations.

Silly Iains. I did not support or oppose anything. Just pointed out that the moderators know what they are doing. As far as I know they stay well away from these toxic British politics threads.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 05:47 AM

"Silly Iains. I did not support or oppose anything. Just pointed out that the moderators know what they are doing. As far as I know they stay well away from these toxic British politics threads."

Perhaps that should change. They have no hesitation moderating on any other thread, or closing them. My only criticism would be that closure could come far sooner in many cases.



There is a major distinction between being rude and deliberately offensive. Probably a subtlety too far for the mudrats, who have to support one another come what may.
without a shadow of a doubt jimmie is deliberately offensive and gets away with it repeatedly.
Others get banned!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 06:16 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: During our membership we became the fifth largest economy in the world

You omit the fact that before that we were the fourth largest economy in the world. During our membership of the EU the relative size of our economy has shrunk.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 07:29 AM

"There is a major distinction between being rude and deliberately offensive"
You have always managed both, especially when you run out of answers
Want a typical example of your own - now how far do I need go back - how about " mudrats,", or "jimmie is deliberately offensive" (previous posting)
I choose to post under my own name unlike anonymous and somewhat cowardly trolls like yourself
That was your last posting - the one before was
"Little jimmie is the most offensive and you shaw are the most insulting."
Then the one before that
"You are a disgrace to this forum."
And before that
"Carroll comes out to play with zero consequences"
And before that
"and of course jimmies introduction of his usual Jewish card made no contribution?"
And before that
"More of the scouser's fairy tales!"

A clear unbroken run of your last postings - every single on a personal insult
I argue strongly on matters that concern me - I am never gratuitously insulting and I always respond directly to arguments
At no time have I ever replaced argument with insult, as you have from your entry on to this forum.
I once got tired of your and Teribus's use of bullyyiing and insulting tactics (shortly after Joe Offer asked us to desist from childish name calling)
I desisted, Teribus persisted and ten you joined him - he had the edge over you as he was infinitely better at it (strangely, I miss his offensive behaviour).
There is something not a little amusing about somebody as permanently offensive and insulting as you who behaves as schoolyard name-callingly and childish as you do complaining about being insulted
Try Burns, he had the answer:

"O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!"

Are you serious Iains?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 08:56 AM

Out of curiosity while I was waiting for a soundfile to come to the oil, I though I'd take a partial selection from Iain's postings, of his responses to oher postings (I think I got about a third of the way down them)
All are from this thread
I repeat - are you serious Iains?
Jim Carroll

Date: 27 Sep 17 - 10:46 PM
Twat.??
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:29 AM
Jimmie I copied your little packmate shaw's insult to me just to watch your entirely predictable behaviour. You and your wannabe bullies apparently think you have carte blanche to post whatever you like, yet act like stuck pigs when the tables are turned. Did you censure the idiot shaw for his gratuitous insult above? One law for the pack and one for the rest of us is it?
When you cannot reciprocate in the discussion with well constructed argument you resort to insult-presumably to make all those people embarrassing you go away, by having the thread closed. What a silly little man you are!
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:05 PM
So Shaw why do you not correct jimmies unique massacre of the english language? After all for a well educated "polymath" such as yourself it would be merely the matter of a moment.
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:26 AM
Calm down Shaw you are getting hysterical. Is that because it took you two days to conjure up a response in the earthquake thread? The strain a bit too much for you? For a well educated scientist I fail to see why you cannot grasp the fact that for any election in the uk the side with the most votes in any area. And the tories are still in power!
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:05 AM
Not in your classroom now stevie boy.
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:28 PM
Whimsical=capricious=given to sudden and unaccountable changes of mood or behaviour.
Oh dear-by his own admission he has totally lost the plot. Time to move in and just ignore the ramblings.
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 03:30 AM
Getting very tetchy shaw! Is this because a few more are having the audacity to question your incessant gibberings?
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 12:35 PM
Raggytash. You have a vivid imagination, if little else!
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 04:21 AM
Roofing exercises the muscles and the brain and the slightest error is on public display. What does teaching exercise? I hear bullying is a huge problem in the profession. HMMMMMMMMMMM!!!! Makes a person think about the nature of a certain person's posts does it not?
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 04:52 PM
Well that was a stunning contribution Shaw. It has advanced the discussion by leaps and bounds. It is obviously solely due to the efforts of a "well educated scientist.
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 03:16 AM
By your own admission you cannot separate fact from fiction, or fiction from fact. That makes most of your posts merely insulting irrelevancies.
Some of us wonder why you spend every hour on mudcat. You must lead a very empty life.
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 03:35 PM
OOOH Dear! You do have a multiplicity of problems, do you not???
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 04:54 PM
"You believe a man who abandoned this country long before there was any brexit talk"
Your understanding of capitalism is of the same abysmal standard as most other things you pontificate on. Do you think he runs a charity like Oxfam or the RSPCA
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 10:43 AM
Is that a simple explanation from a simple mind?
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:20 PM
Jim a man of your minuscule talents on a keyboard has some audacity to highlight a spelling error of mine!
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 12:50 PM
Greg if you wish to publicly display your stupidity please continue.
Your nonsense is best confined to your insult the president thread", where all opposition is deleted
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 04:51 AM
The lad shaw is permanently confused: And as I said previously, a Walter Mitty
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 08:47 AM
You and your equally pathetic mates evidently think so, otherwise you would not continuously babble on about him.
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 12:02 PM
Here you are jimmie. Specially for you and your pathetic little mates.
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 05:07 PM
D the G. I enjoy a circus, especially this one!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 11:21 AM

I try not to be accidentally rude. Nor do I ever use unwarranted abuse. There are times when there is no point in even trying to gain any form of agreement or understanding. At that point the only course of action is to show the same contempt that the other poster offers me.

I think the moderators understand this.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 11:30 AM

Btw. Look at the latest legislation on domestic abuse. I think you will find that even the slow moving judiciary have agreed that abuse is not just physical or name calling. There are many kinds of abuse far more subtle including trying to belittle people or walking roughshod over their feelings. At least 2 of the people now banned tried that tactic and got what they deserved. Sadly the biggest culprit is still allowed to get away with it. And no, it is not you. Far from it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 11:33 AM

Iains, Could I make an observation without upsetting you. That is not my intent.

Seldom do you respond to any of the points raised here by other contributors, I cannot bring to mind any reply you have made to my posts that actually addressed the issue I was discussing.

I do realise that as a Brexiteer apart from actually being successful in the referendum you don't really have a lot to put forward as most if not all of the media coverage has been negative. (I don't count blue passports as a major step forward)

Could I politely suggest you stick to dealing with the issue of Brexit and do not resort to needless name-calling. It serves no useful purpose.

I do undertand that people on the "other" side of the argument are not exactly angels but perhaps they would be less antagonistic if less abuse was forthcoming.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 11:38 AM

PS I except the idiot professor, he does not merit any consideration at all. Deceitful, duplicious lying little toe-rag spring to mind.


PPS I can guarantee that when he reads this he will bleat "I don't tell lies"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 01:46 PM

Raggytash as there are occasions you entirely civil in your responses, I will put a few counterpoints forward.
There are four people on this forum that always leap to defend one another.
One insults and offends so frequently that I doubt he even realizes the extent to which he does it.
One patronizes everybody and attempts to talk down to them unless sidetracked and burbling on about irrelevancies.
One pretends to be the little innocent while sliding in the stilletto.
One apparently just likes to run with the pack.

You know who you are. You are all wannabee bullies and want   to lord it over everyone else on this forum. There are times the "facts" you put forward are unsupported by evidence. When this is carefully documented and presented to you, you squeal. Teribus was very skilful and very thorough in rebutting your more fanciful assertions. That is why I find it surprising he has gone. He was a needed thorn in your
sides. I imagine you bullies were ecstatic to find that he posted no more. He had your measure far too well.

I too can make long lists of insults hurled and play the stupid game of my list is longer than your list. That is a very childish tactic adopted by one of your number, and he plays the little game constantly. So much for being grown up.

As I said to start with there are four of you and you make the entire area below the line in the BS section a constant battlefield. Hardly surprising the contributors to this section are shrinking. What on earth gives you the audacity to think you can impose your collective will on the direction the threads may take. Do you have some collective deficiency in you characters where you feel you have to bully, bluster, insult and attempt to coerce all those with a contrary view.
It says a lot to me that you came out to play in unison after my last post, presumably number 4 got the sniff of a good wine deal somewhere and is offline for a while. You all four are really despicable people.
Should the moderators wish to ban me or delete my post that is entirely a matter for them, but I will not be browbeaten, intimidated or silenced by you four.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 02:15 PM

I have no idea who you are talking about, Iains. Either have the bottle to name who you ascribe these attributes to or just fuck off with your silly hints and insinuations.

I, for one, have never felt the need to jump to anyone's defence and I would not expect anyone to defend anything I say or do.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 05:15 PM

Keith: here is an extract from the EU draft of the December agreement:

=====
called on the Commission as Union negotiator and the United Kingdom to complete the work on all withdrawal issues, including those not yet addressed in the first phase, to consolidate the results obtained, and to start drafting the relevant parts of the Withdrawal Agreement. It stressed that negotiations in the second phase can only progress as long as all commitments undertaken during the first phase are respected in full and translated faithfully into legal terms as quickly as possible

=====

So the EU wants everything agreed to in December to be translated into legal terms. That is the context within which I think Tusk's comments are to be understood.

I dont think there is much vakue discussing this aspect much more. By the end of March the UK will have produced a legak text OR the EU will have backed down OR fudge will have been found or there will be no agreement. In two or three weeks we will know

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 05:18 PM

I think Iains has just made our poits for us - far better than we could
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 06:37 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: During our membership we became the fifth largest economy in the world



You omit the fact that before that we were the fourth largest economy in the world. During our membership of the EU the relative size of our economy has shrunk.

Oops............face meet egg.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 08:15 PM

"I too can make long lists of insults hurled and play the stupid game of my list is longer than your list"
I've invited you to do so before Iains - you didn't take me up on it last time and I doubt if you will now - but feel free
What you indulge in is the most cowardly form of bullying - protected by anonymity and distance - something you would not dare to do face to face.
Insulting is, in fact, a traditional art form - in Scotland they held competitions - (flytings) to outdo each other in invective
I suggest you read through your own postings and work out if there is anything you are proud of having said
I have described your behaviour as childish - that's what they are - but again, feel free to show that I've missed something
Anybody with views as off-the-wall as yours are could make for interesting argument - that's what these discussions should be about
Yours are just repetitively boorish
As my mother used to say - you are no more than tuppence trying to look over thruppence - might be a little too subtle for some!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 08:58 PM

Once again, Iains, I'll point out that you recently made fourteen posts in succession in this brexit-related thread that had nothing whatsoever to do with brexit. Please don't make me do an overall count. Instead, get help.

Er, the UK was the world's sixth largest economy in terms of GDP in 1970, pre-EU. In 2015 it was the fifth largest, even though China was nowhere in 1970 but way ahead of us in 2015. Why, we were even knocking spots off France in 2015. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 09:10 PM

My comment that the UK became the fifth-largest economy in the world during our membership of the EU is factually correct. No egg, no face, no nothing. Sorry if it doesn't fit your agenda, chaps, but that's the sheer obstinacy of facts for you! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 09:12 PM

"During our membership of the EU the relative size of our economy has shrunk.
"
Nothing to do with the fact that consecutive governments have consistently destroyed Britain's major industries, mining, shipbuilding, steel, textiles... until Britain has become totally dependent in imports - of course!!
The fact that Britain no longer has an industrial base has guaranteed that it cannot stand on its own feet and has to decide who to depend on - Trump's unstable administration doesn't look too promising
Nice summing up of Britain's chances of a n independent future here
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-slow-death-of-british-industry-by-nicholas-comfort-8456205.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 09:26 PM

"...the relative size of our economy has shrunk."

Jim, this is actually a meaningless statement. Relative to what? Shrunk as compared to what? It's simply laughable. A typical statement from a congenital europhobe.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 03:32 AM

While GDP is undeniably important, I suspect most people more worried about what proportion of their wages arw things like rent, electricity, a loaf of bread, a pint of milk...

That is better expressed in terms of these costs against the median salary, because that includes distribution of wealth, whereas GDP only addresses the total, so doesn't care whether any improvement all ends up in the hands of the 1%.


So personally I would like to objectives around RPI, not just GDP.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 03:21 AM

This paper discusses the kind of measures I mean. I mentioned RPI and median salaries because tbey are weel understood, but the idea in this paper are better, in my view.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 06:21 AM

"Jim, this is actually a meaningless statement."
I realise that Steve - but one of the largest sea-changes in the British economy has been in what that economy is base on
We produce nothing in real terms that can be exported - (even the immoral arms trade is based on buying and selling on) and we now rely on imports for the essentials of life - we can no longer exist as a self-sufficient country.
The largest proportion of our exports - 30-odd% - is finance - Britain is no longer a self-sustaining nation.
The Tories have made us dependent on others for our existence
As if their bribe to Northern Ireland sectarians with terrorist links wasn't bad enough - now this, from this morning's Sunday Times

TORIES BREAK MAY’S VOW TO BAN OLIGARCH DONORS
Caroline Wheeler and Andrew Gilligan
Russian oligarchs and their associates have registered donations of more than £820,000 (€920,000) to the Conservative Party since Theresa May became UK prime minister, The Sunday Times can reveal.
May promised to distance her party from Russian donors when she took office, with allies briefing that she would “sup with a long spoon” and the prime minister insisting there would not be a “business-as-usual” relationship with Moscow. However, the party has declared donations worth £826,100 from Russian-linked supporters since July 2016.
Last night, May was under pressure to return the cash over the attempted murder of the Russian former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury last Sunday.
Marina Litvinenko, the widow of the former Russian dissident Alexander, who was killed by the Kremlin in London in 2006, said: “These donations are not just from the heart and for charitable reasons. They are all calculated.”
Ministers have privately accused May of adopting a “limp” approach to the assassination plot.
Nia Griffith, Labour’s shadow defence secretary, said: “These revelations call into question how seriously Theresa May will be willing to challenge Russia’s conduct when her party is literally being bankrolled by some close allies of the Kremlin.”
A Conservative Party spokeswoman said: “All donations to the Conservative party are properly and transparently declared to the Electoral Commission.
“We are strengthening our cyber-security and looking at tightening our financial regimes to ensure the profits of corruption cannot flow from Russia into the UK.”

Before I watched it I thought McMafia was about Glaswegian gangsters, (joke!) - now it seems it was really about what is going on behind the closed doors of Westminster.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 06:42 AM

Careers advisor: What sort of work are you cut out for?

Young man: I don't really like work. I want to make lots of money for little effort but I think only criminals do that and I don't like the idea of prison.

Careers advisor: How about going into the Tory party then?

Btw. Anyone heard from Stu? He started this thread but hasn't posted for ages.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 07:23 AM

Socialism means misery and poverty for the many not the few . Vital that this point is hammered home on University Campuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 07:34 AM

"Socialism means misery and poverty for the many not the few "
YUP - SURE DOES BOZO !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 07:59 AM

Stu hasn't posted since some disgraceful posting by Iains in the "Foul-mouthed Trump!" thread. Stu frequently doesn't agree with me and I frequently don't agree with him, and he's more than capable of telling it like it (truly) is in no uncertain terms, but next time we're accused by the trolls here of driving decent people away just go and take another look at that thread on that day, where there's a fine degree of hypocrisy on display.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 08:04 AM

14 Jan.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 08:26 AM

Thanks, Steve, and I certainly agree with Stu's sentiment about the links to hate sites and the people that provide them. Not sure that the 'leave them to it' approach is right though. As someone once said, all it needs for hate to thrive is for good men to do nothing. Imagine the impression people would get of English folkies if the right wing tripe posted here was left unchallenged.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 09:42 AM

If the Independent article is to be believed, the UK government is considering lots of infrastructure at the Irish border.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 09:58 AM

That would be a complete disaster and would wreck the Good Friday Agreement. I note also that the EU is not giving in to any talk of a bespoke/frictionless/whatever-other-imaginative-word-for-deal may be conjured up on financial services. Why would they? Brexit is a great opportunity for EU countries to cheerfully welcome the relocation of many of our major financial institutions to their own capital cities. We're going to be afloat somewhere in mid-Atlantic between an unfriendly EU and an ultra-protectionist US. who'd have thought it? Well quite a lot of us, actually, despite the plethora of lies and false hopes we've so far been served up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 10:23 AM

Stu posted this morning as a guest, a few minutes after my post about him, on the "Purely out of interest..." thread in the music section.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 01:27 PM

An article on the BBC news today reports a speech by Vince Cable. Well worth a read. A salient point he puts is that older people were swayed by the thought of a world where "passports were blue, faces were white and the map was coloured imperial pink"

A very nive summoning up of some attitudes on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 01:46 PM

You just beat me to it. I'm no fan of Sir Vince, but I agree with his every word. Here's some bits of what he said:

The Lib Dem leader said the votes of the older generation had "crushed the hopes and aspirations of young people for years to come."

Speaking at his party's spring conference, he said the government's Brexit policy was a "fraud."

"I thought, you know, the public had voted to be poorer - well, that was their right.
What changed my mind was the evidence that Brexit had overwhelmingly been the choice of the older generation.

"75% of under 25s voted to remain. But 70% of over 65s voted for Brexit," he said.

The Lib Dem leader went to say too many older voters were driven by "nostalgia for a world where passports were blue, faces were white and the map was coloured imperial pink."

"And it was their votes on one wet day in June which crushed the hopes and aspirations of young people for years to come," he said.

The former business secretary called the 'vision of a Global Britain signing lots of new trade deals" being pursued by his one-time cabinet colleague Theresa May a "fraud."

"Far from opening our arms to the world, we will be tearing up preferential trade deals we already have with 27 countries in the EU and 74 outside it," he said.

"There is no more eloquent testimony to the government's utter naivety about trade, that at a time when the world is descending into trade war, they put more faith in the Wild West warmonger in Washington and the bully of Beijing than they do in our established friends and trade partners in Europe."<

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 02:07 PM

It was a superb Tour-de-force. Sadly, its inherent truths will be completely beyond the powers of comprehension of the feeble-minded, union-jack-underpants, 'Take Are Cuntry Back' BrexShitteers on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 03:28 PM

Can we do anything to extract ourselves from this mire other than get rid of the shower of shits that dropped us in it? That is not likely to happen soon enough so how can we best salvage anything out of the looming disaster before it happens?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 03:23 AM

In the case of mant older people they did not vote for their own poverty, but other peoples poverty. They would be the first to complain if the government did the right thing and cut their pensions to subsidise import tariffs in order to prevent price rises for the rest of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 05:34 AM

One of the problems with the government exploring the "Smart Borders 2.0" is that they seem to be making the assumption that would be acceptable to the EU, whereas their legal text version of the December agreement makes it quite plain that is unlikely.

The Smart Borders document is, in my opinion, much more about what the EU believes they would have to do if we ended up with no deal. It does not follow it is acceptable if we do have a deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 05:36 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 06:42 AM

Powerful and true words from Richard Dawkins on BBC newsnight.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 07:59 AM

Well that was truly from the hip. Of course, he'll attract derision for calling the electorate ignorant and ill-informed (and because of who he is), but he is exactly right. Not because we are all stupid, but because we were KEPT ignorant and ill-informed, misinformed even, by the referendum campaign, which was an utter disgrace and nothing to do with democracy. And he's also dead right about the bar being set far too low, a point I've made here again and again - the referendum's alternative answers, in or out, were way too skewed for them to be able to be properly subjected to a simple majority of the turnout. Vote to remain and we can easily try again and again to turn it around, just as we do in general elections every few years. Vote to leave (assuming we do leave as the politicians fail to see the light) and it's irrevocable by every practical consideration. Two-thirds of a minimum 75% turnout vote to leave, or even better, no referendum at all, would have been a far better way to go. The quality of the brexiteers' attitude is betrayed by their idiotic "people-have-spoken" crowing over this disastrous state of affairs (38%, remember?) and their calling US undemocratic for continuing to complain and campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 08:10 AM

"that would be acceptable to the EU,"
There's a lot of basic 'point-missing' here
What is acceptable to tHe E.U. really features very small here - the point is far more basic than that
Ireland was partitioned in the 1920s and the residents made citizens of two different nations - just have to put yourself into the position of having to identify yourself if you wish to travel from Luton to Hitchin - simple as that
That led to many decades of bitter resentment and eventually open warfare
The end of the fighting brought about an attempt to bring the two groups together - a major step in that process was the removing of all visible signs of the border.
Now Britain stands to turning the clock back thirty years
They have to be joking!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 08:17 AM

I don't disagree, Jim. The EU has made clear that only a solution acceptable to Ireland will be acceptable to them, but it is the EU who are negotiating which is why I phrased it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 08:18 AM

Amen, Steve.

And again sadly, no matter the truth of your post, those concepts are totally beyond the comprehension of the brainwashed Brexiters. We - the 73% of the electorate who did NOT vote to leave the EU - have been right royally shafted by an ill-constructed Referendum, a campaign based on lies and deceits on both sides with few hard facts presented to voters, and a Conservative government funded, driven, and given its instructions, by a small group of immensely-rich people whose interests will be best-served by a hard-Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 09:22 AM

" The EU has made clear that only a solution acceptable to Ireland will be acceptable to them,"
Ireland has left it in the hands of the main negotiators as have the other member countries - though Brexit effects them as weel
The first thing that Britain did, having promised there would be a hard border was to back-pedal madly, saying that their promise was no such thing, but no more than a hope
If Britain continues to behave like that none of us will live to see a settlement of this shambles
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 09:37 AM

Should read, "no hard border" - of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 07:39 AM

Steve - Just found out I had the wrong St Ives anyway. The new Mossers was near Cambridge.

Wonder which one the man with 7 wives was going to?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 09:00 AM

Well, not much surprising from the EU debate on the text of the draft negotiation guidelines this morning:

Juncker says avoiding a hard border is an EU issue, not just an Irish issue. UKIP shouts out it is a British issue.

DUP say the backstop proposal is agressive interference in UK internals. Sinn Fein the backstop is not perfect but to be welconed.

Farage says we could do a US deal within 48 hours...

No real surprises. A vote on the resolution is due tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 09:40 AM

Just read a lovely analogy. I can't C&P it as it is from an image. Please excuse any typo's.

Engineer: We found some large holes in the ship's hull
Captain: The people voted to sail
Engineer: I respect that but we will sink
Captain: Seems pretty buoyant to me
Engineer: We're still in dry dock
Captain: Your opinion. I disagree
Engineer: It really isn't a matter of opi...
Captain: That's project fear talking
Engineer: My professional view is that we won't make it twenty miles
Captain: People have had enough of experts
Engineer: Yes, OK, but shouldn't we let the people know and ask them again?
Captain: The people's will CANNOT be subverted
Engineer: The people voted for a free cruise, not a watery death
Captain: REMOANER!

Pause.

Engineer: Where are we going anyway?
Captain: Urmmm... I don't know. I thought you did. You're the expert.
Engineer: Where did the people vote to go?
Captain: We didn't, erm, we didn't ask. We didn't ask where. Not exactly. They just wanted to go.
Engineer: Go where?
Captain: I DON'T KNOW. Out. (motions vaguely) I am not going to show you MY HAND

Pause.

Engineer: I resign
Captain:

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 09:42 AM

...continued

Captain: ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE!
Engineer: I'll tell Beth you love her...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 05:02 AM

And still they're not facing the REAL reason for BrexShit...

Bugger all to do with 'imagrunts' (sic), or 'unelected beurocrats' (sic), or 'Taking Are Cuntry Back' (sic), and everything to do with tax-avoidance/evasion by the richest, most powerful people in our society. And feeble-minded Daily Fail, Scum, and Torygraph readers fell for the racist, xenophobic propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

May and her cohorts are doing as they're told by the Murdochs, Rothermeres, etc. of this world. Nothing more, nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 08:52 AM

I'm not so sure, BWM. Certainly, that is an effect. It may also be part of the answer to the question "why now?" and also what kind of Brexit. But if I was that influential I would try to get it decided by Parliament rather than put it to a popular vote which most pollsters thought they would lose. You also have to take into account the anti-immigration rhetoric has been going pretty much since the EU was created, decades before the proposed tax regulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 10:17 AM

Nice to see far right group Britain First and its leaders have been banned from Facebook. Related to Brexit because those arsewipes were instrumental in stoking the fires of racism during that campaign and we most likely responsible for the death of Jo Cox. Hopefully other web sites, including this one, will follow suit and start to ban the right wing tripe mongers that are the cause of so much hatred. Maybe then we can discuss things in a civil manner once more.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 11:54 AM

You have a point, DMcG, but don't forget that this EU Tax-Law change hasn't suddenly crept up on The, it has been in the air for a very long time, the Off-shorers and other sundry Rich Tax-Dodgers have known about this for several years. Their anti-immigrant, anti-EU propaganda has been ratcheted up over this time, precisely in order to 'wind up' he feeble-minded, Union-Flag-underpants, British-Bulldog-tattoo brigade.

And, of course, they want us out of the EU because, whilst they control the Tories here, they can't exert the same control over the EU - wasn't it Murdoch who was reported to have said, "When I talk to the UK government, they jump. When I talk to the EU, they ignore me!", or words to that effect.

And, of course it's the reason why Weak & Wobbly Terroresa is pushing for a hard BrexShit, with no membership of the Single Market or the Customs Union - membership of those would require the UK to remain subject to the EU tax regime, and the new anti-avoidance/evasion rules which come into effect in 2019.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 01:11 PM

An interesting article on the BBC today, listed under the business page, basically saying that the UK economy is the poorest performing in Europe with little good news for the future. Could someone please link to it. It is titled "Tax rises of #40bn needed"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 03:40 PM

IS THIS THE ONE RAGGY?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 05:23 AM

Thanks Jim, thats the one. Very poor reading regarding our economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:19 AM

More voices saying the UK approach to the Irish border needs rethinking .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:12 AM

Grayling's idea of 'Taking Back Control'....

'Take are cuntry back (sic)' my arse! What a bunch of twats.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:20 AM

Grayling spent the evening making confident and bullish assertions thst he was not entitled to make on matters that are still subject to negotiation. Typical pompous, smug, Tory idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 07:39 PM

you know you people on here and elsewhere who are prepared to support the tories, the wealthy and the toffs - you do know it isn't very cool or patriotic or sensible don't you? you do know that history will look on you as gullible idiots eh? do you never yearn to be enlightened or positive or hopeful?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Mar 18 - 12:57 PM

If this article is correct, we are in for some interesting reading tomorrow if the Exiting Brexit Select Committee does recommend trying to extend the Article 50 timescales as we do not have enough time to address all the things we need to. Of course, a minority disagrees, but as the Leavers here are forever reminding us that the majority rules, I am sure they will back the majority report.

At the same time, David Davis is in Brussels trying to sort out the Irish border question. This is not helped by the sudden awareness there is a Dover problem as well.

Also at the same time, many companies are entering the financial year in which they have to make all the preparations in case there is a 'no-deal'.

I never underestimate politicians ability to fudge things, but this has to be boiled up in time for an EU Council meeting on 22/23rd of this month...

Things have been a bit quiet on the Brexit front for a few weeks, but it looks like the next two weeks will be lively.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 04:16 AM

The Select committee report

Unsurprisingly, all the papers which mention it seem to be focusing on the minority report by Rees-Mogg and co, not the report agreed by the majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 06:10 AM

Peteaberdeen. In answer: Nope!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 07:16 AM

It is looking as if the UK is about to concede on the fisheries. I seem to remember several leave supporters talking as if not backing down on this was very important to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 08:29 AM

Ok, I seemed to have jumped the gun on that one. We have conceded on fishing but only for 2019. I am sure the leave supporters can live with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 09:16 AM

you people on here and elsewhere who are prepared to support the tories, the wealthy and the toffs

I thought we were discussing the merits of Leave and Remain here.
Plenty of Labour politicians support Leave, and Leavers here are putting their case.
Most Tory politicians support Remain. Remainers here are putting their case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:00 AM

So 13 Tories plus Farage plus a DUP chap are going to throw fish at Theresa May in protest at the Tory caving-in on the fisheries policy, and Spain are cutting up rough on Gibraltar. Still going well, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:10 AM

Has anyone ever claimed that the negotiations are going well?
What is your point?
Who ever imagined Spain would not make an issue of Gibraltar?
Who ever imagined that EU would give back our fishing grounds for the transition?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 09:57 AM

Who ever imagined that hacking into Facebook and selling personal details would become part of national elections - certainly why the world is landed with a racist, misogynistic maniac in the White House and probably why many fell for Brexit
Watch this space for future developments
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 02:52 PM

Who ever imagined that EU would give back our fishing grounds for the transition?

Michael Gove, by all accounts.


Now I hear 13 Tory MPs including Rees-Mogg have written to Teresa May saying they will refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Bill unless the fishing negotiated position is changed.

Assuming May believes them, it means she will have to make concessions on some of the amendments to get enough Labour MPs to vote for it to get an essential bill passed. That's brinkmanship for you: there's always a risk of it backfiring.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 05:14 AM

Who ever imagined that EU would give back our fishing grounds for the transition?
Michael Gove, by all accounts.

I am sure he never imagined they would give them back. He might have hoped we would insist on it.
We seem to be making all the concessions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 08:15 AM

Well this is one of the things Gove said.

I hope he believed and imagined it was possible when he said it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 08:34 AM

I hope, by the way, we are not going to get stuck on the word 'imagine'. I have no access to what you can imagine, nor you to my imagination. And neither of us has access to anybody elses.

So if someone is arguing for something I am taking that as a sign they imagine it as a possibility, even if is a remote one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:10 AM

Steve - Forgot to tell you. Had a wonderful Primitivo last week. Dominic Hentall Terra Calda Primitivo. Well worth looking up but on the pricey side. Probably get it for far less next time you are there :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:03 AM

DMcG, I am sure he did believe that EU should give back the fishing grounds, and he clearly believes May should have demanded it.

He must have known EU would resist, just not that May would cave in over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:14 PM

I just loved the delicious irony that now we are "GETTING BACK CONTROL" one of the first contracts of the new era for the new "Blue Passport" looks like it might be going to a French firm.

You really couldn't make it up. The contract for the last few years has been handled by a UK group who look to be losing out on a contract worth hundreds of millions.

If it does go ahead no doubt jobs will be lost. I'm sure the people
who will be thrown on the scrap heap will thank everyone who voted leave.

Never mind they can always go a pick vegetables for a pittance instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:46 PM

It doesn't worry me too much where the passport are made, as long as the full economic costs are taken into account. That's things like loss of taxation and payments to the people who have lost their jobs. More likely, all of that has been ignored and it is just the cost typed on the contract that has been considered.

We will see a lot of this sort of thing: taking back control never really meant the UK would be preferred if someone else was cheaper. And as for making concessions, I suspect we have barely started. The concessions we will have to make to win trade deals after Brexit are the ones I worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:59 PM

I quite agree DMcG. In one my previous postions I was responsible for negotiating and awarding contracts.

It's just the irony that a major contract for the NEW British passport may be awarded to a FOREIGN company.

You really could't make it up !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:56 PM

France only allows French firms to print theirs, for security reasons.
Fools or chauvinists?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:16 PM

What difference does it make where it is made. Do you wish to pay a premium for your passport to retain the British provenance? Where does that argument get you? British cars and trucks on the road, British oil keeping them running? British food to keep everyone alive?
British uranium to keep our few remaining reactors running?
The idea is a joke. Like or dislike the global village, the fact is that it is a reality. In or out of Europe that will remain unchanged. The clock will not turn back and major shipbuilding and coalmining areas will not come back like a phoenix. The growth of self driving vehicles, AI and the increasing sophistication of robotics and automation will scythe through many many traditional jobs in the near future. Machines do not have holidays, sick pay or PMT and they can work 24/7. No strikes, no unions, BLISS! But how will all the useless eaters be kept placid when their jobs evaporate in droves?
I wonder how much of what we are fed by the media and education system is in preparation for these happy days when we reach the Elysian Fields, or perhaps merely the cliff of the lemmings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:24 PM

Interesting that you use PMT as though it was something that can be avoided.

Thats speaks volumes about you Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:29 PM

PS It is obvious that awarding a major contract to produce the new "Blue" British passport is obviously lost on some.

Yeah ........ lets take back control !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 03:40 PM

PMT reduces efficiency. It says volumes about you that you cannot see this obvious point, and want to make some sort of crusade out of the use of the term.
Taking back control is not about rewarding British companies because they cannot compete in the open market.Try using some sort of logic when constructing your arguments. Are you becoming an acolyte of he who must not be argued with?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 03:50 PM

Irony is not your strong point is it Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 05:35 PM

My passport will be made in France (due to coincidence, my bloody passport runs out four days after brexit, though no doubt I can renew my EU one in good time). I hope it will get me on to EasyJet just as easily. My shorts, shirts, undies and sandals are all made in China. They'll get me on the plane too (I'm not going to try naked boarding). My cabin bag - Chinese. My watch - Japanese. My bottle of water will probably be Evian. French. If my passport is made in France, British workers will be worse off but French workers will be better off. Even Stevens. The French are no better or worse than us. Good luck to 'em.   Just wait until we try to do those amazing trade deals tbe world over, as we've been promised. Just when a Chino-yank trade war is hotting up!

End the madness! We must remain!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 05:42 PM

Do you wish to pay a premium for your passport to retain the British provenance?

No. But I repeat the point about the difference between the cover price and total economic cost. Ignore that, and you can end up paying more as a nation - i.e. paying a premium - by taking the cheaper contract.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 06:18 PM

No point the little Englanders whingeing about where our passports are made. After all, the decision was pure capitalism. And I've yet to encounter a little Englander brexiteer who isn't a pure capitalist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:01 AM

I must admit to sime amusement at the thought of Iains marching down to Lowestoft and giving the fishing comminity his "facts of life", then going on a tour of the other fishing centres.

I am sure he would be warmly received. My only regret is he didn't do so before the vote; i am sure it would have made some say "Blow this for a lark, we're better off remaining."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:16 AM

Lowestoft fishing community? Are you in the right century? There is no fishing community.
Grimsby had a far larger fishing industry and NE Lincs voted 70% to leave. This statistic is a fact of life!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:50 AM

This was in the papers on 19 March this year:

Fisherman Paul Lines, chairman of the Lowestoft Fish Market Alliance, said the news would devastate the industry in East Anglia and may be the final straw for many.

Yes, I think I am in right century.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:56 AM

And, yes they largely voted to leave. It is always risky to say why people voted the way they did, but it is a reasonable bet that they thought it could give them more access to the UK fish. So your "facts of life" speech saying they they may well have less unless they can outbid the other competitors is unlikely to cheer them up very much.

But if you would rather go and give that speech to Grimsby, feel free.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 05:32 AM

Business is business. If you cannot compete you die. Another inconvenient truth. Do you think you are entitled to a particular job, just because it has always been there? How many farmers exist in the UK today, how many miners, how many shipbuilders?..........
Your arguments are facile. The industry in Lowestoft was destroyed by Ted Heath decades ago. Mr Lines's horse bolted years ago and it's stable is now devoted to alternative energy. The actual meeting was in the Orbis energy center. Times change, as do occupations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 05:42 AM

If you cannot compete you die.

It is very true but too many people believe this applies to short term profit only. What about sustainability? Human cost? Environmental damage? Anyone thinking that the only measure is the bottom line is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 05:49 AM

You arguments are facile

Well, that's a big step up from the personal abuse that is all too common on this site, so thanks for dealing with the argument not the person.

But you will find I haven't argued for subsidising failing business or against changing jobs. I have not even argued against taking the cheapest contract whether from the UK or abroad. I have simply argued that the whole costs need to be looked at. I don't think that is facile.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 06:01 AM

Let's use a fishing example, seeing as that is what we were on about.

Tiny's trawlers make sure they only fish for 6 months a year and for the other 6 months the fish breed and replenish the stocks. Because their fleet is in harbour for six months they are seen as unprofitable.

Whopper's whale boats fish for 12 months a year, returning with profitable catches every time. They make more money so, on paper, are the better investment.

In 5 years time Tiny is still returning the same profit. Whopper has cleaned out his fishing grounds and returns no profit at all. Ever again. Who was the better businessman?

Dave (just call me Aesop) the Gnome.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 07:34 AM

"How many farmers exist in the UK today, how many miners, how many shipbuilders?.........."
Not sure if that is supposed to be in support of the system or against it!
You may not be entitled to a particular job but you should be entitled to a job that suits your skills - no longer the case
All these occupations died because of underfunding and neglect because it was more profitable to buy abroad and they were never replaced.
Blaming the EU for the state of the Fishing Industry is crass - it has been dying since the middle of the 20th century due to overfishing in order to supply the multinationals
THE SCIENTISTS VIEW
It would have inevitably have gone the way of all the other industries Britain has lost.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:03 AM

I suspect the truth of the matter over passports is that De La Rue thought they had the contract in the bag with the upcoming Brexit and tried stitching up the taxpayer with a vastly inflated pricing structure. They miscalculated.

Jim you are not entitled to a damm thing apart from air to breathe. If your skillset has no market, you have no work. Economic fact.
Employment opportunities wax and wane with supply and demand and suitability of the workforce. You start introducing socialist ideals and it all goes t***ts up because the accumulated costings will fly in the face of economic reality - straight into government bail out or bankruptcy. The occupations you mention died because the same material end could be accomplished more efficiently elsewhere.
Your answer to all problems is to pump more taxpayer funding into the entity to prolong is costly death throes. That is neither a social or economic response that can be justified.
Study the state of the economy after a labour government, robbing Peter to skank Paul, while kidding the latter that he is having a helping hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:14 AM

"Jim you are not entitled to a damm thing apart from air to breathe"
Not in a fascist state, you're not - a democratic society has to create a situation whereby anybody who is able to can support themselves by the work of their own hands
Your "economic fact" excludes those who cannot
This has nothing to do with "socialist ideals" it is basic democracy
Your nightmare world leaves Orwell's 1984 one at the starting post - are you insane?
The society you appear to envisage, where wealth and power call the shots regresses us back to pre feudalism.
My answer is to create a society that suits all - nothing to do with your "handout" dependency
Not to do so is to waste the most valuable source humanity has - humanity itself
You go beyond the worst that even this shoddy shower of fucks that rule us do - at least they have to pay lip service to providing for all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:33 AM

tried stitching up the taxpayer with a vastly inflated pricing structure.

Point of information: the gov.uk site is quite clear that the cost of a passport covers the cost of its issue. The cost is borne by the purchaser of the passport, not the taxpayer.

There are plenty of taxpayers without passports, and plenty of passport holders who earn so little their tax is small. The two groups - passport holders & taxpayers - are distinct.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 10:57 AM

Oh dear! gullibility knows no bounds! The government just loves people like you.

http://www.cityam.com/282739/rue-weighs-up-appeal-after-missing-out-new-post-brexit-blue

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:15 AM

Jim everything has its price. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and no socialist has ever found a magic money tree. Those in society in work support those that do not. State pensions are funded through taxation, as is the health service, the sick, the unemployed, unmarried mothers and the bone idle. If the tax grab from those in work is insufficient to fund all these dependencies there will be an answering.
The attached is certainly not how we want it to end up-yet are we encouraging a dependency among a minority?

https://www.ilivehere.co.uk/bransholme-hull.html

A study in a socialist dream transmogrified into a nightmare sink estate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:38 AM

Try it for yourself. I know numerous people brought up on Bransholme. Most are well balanced hard working people who have gained a measure of success, a night coun manager, a publican, a master carpenter, a Trade Union Offical, an actor/professional musician and numerous people in the Educational field.

Sure there are some who haven't done well but that happens in any group of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:42 AM

How can you possibly describe expecting to work for a living be described as a free "lunch"
Anybody can pull out examples of poor conditions from any society - totally meaningless - how about one from INDUSTRIAL CAPITALISM AT ITS MOST UNCONTROLLED
Totally meaning less
How many of these people are liviing in a a SOCIALIST DREAM ?
Starvation and deprivation is an asepect of any society that ignores the basic human rights of its people - which is exactly what you are suggesting - pretty well in line with your proposal that the survivors of Grenfell Tower should be left to fend for themselves rather than breach the rights of property ownership.
This society, with the few fought for rights that have survived a capitalist society is in a fucked-up mess as it is without your Brave New World
Even the dream of Capitalism was that it would benefit all in the long run
If I were a cynic, I would hope your dreams came true as any society who took i on would burn in flames
You really are a fanatic, aren't you?
GLOBAL DIVISION of WEALTH
AND IN BRITAIN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:42 AM

How can you possibly describe expecting to work for a living be described as a free "lunch"
Anybody can pull out examples of poor conditions from any society - totally meaningless - how about one from INDUSTRIAL CAPITALISM AT ITS MOST UNCONTROLLED
Totally meaning less
How many of these people are liviing in a a SOCIALIST DREAM ?
Starvation and deprivation is an asepect of any society that ignores the basic human rights of its people - which is exactly what you are suggesting - pretty well in line with your proposal that the survivors of Grenfell Tower should be left to fend for themselves rather than breach the rights of property ownership.
This society, with the few fought for rights that have survived a capitalist society is in a fucked-up mess as it is without your Brave New World
Even the dream of Capitalism was that it would benefit all in the long run
If I were a cynic, I would hope your dreams came true as any society who took i on would burn in flames
You really are a fanatic, aren't you?
GLOBAL DIVISION of WEALTH
AND IN BRITAIN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 12:37 PM

My daughter is currently involved in some research where this is the first paragraph:



============

In 2013, global news networks reported the collapse of the Rana Plaza garment factory in Bangladesh killing 1,138 garment workers. It resulted in a spontaneous worldwide campaign for changes to the living conditions of workers at the end of the supply chain (Minney, 2016). Little compensation for the garment workers’ families has eventuated from the major Western retailers, i.e. H&M, GAP, Benetton and Walmart. At the same time, the Asia Floor Wage Alliance reports that there are fewnoticeable improvements in factory working conditions, e.g. access to secure fire exists, to drinking water, ventilation and fair wages (Kasperkevic, 2016).

========

It is that kind of thing I think when I hear comments like this:

Jacob Rees-Mogg said regulations that were “good enough for India” could be good enough for the UK – arguing that the UK could go “a very long way” to rolling back high EU standards.

The idea, floated at a hearing of the Treasury Select Committee, was immediately rejected by an economist, who said such a move would likely cause “quite considerable” difficulties.


========

I think people have other rights than the air they breathe. Safe working conditions, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 12:48 PM

I think there is little value of having a vote if you have no say in what you are voting for
The idea for voting for "freedom" or for "the good of your country is an utter nonsense if it doesn't include basic rights, like a roof over your head or a liveable wage
It is little wonder that so many people choose not to vte in Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:01 PM

Jim your views dste from the time of the workhouse. Try to update your
your skill set, stop creating fairy tales in order to make a point, and try to have a rational discussion. A no brainer for most but an insurmountable challenge for you. The study of a very basic book on economic theory would pay dividends also. It might curb some of your more "outrageous" statements.
Even in late victorian times if you could not support yourself it was off to the workhouse with you.
Otto von Bismarck's created the first old age pension for 70 year olds, it was not until 1908 70 year olds in the UK received a means tested pension. The safety net has constantly expanded since - jack shit to do with capitalism, more to do with basic decency in a caring society.
Why do you insist on pathetic attempts at political point scoring?
Society madesire to do many things but the pot is not bottmless, hence sometimes harsh decisions need to be made. Only in your head exist the utopia you insist on banging on about.on
"How can you possibly describe expecting to work for a living be described as a free "lunch" How on earth do you come by that interpretation? Comprehension cannot be your strong point now can it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:28 PM

Stop being so fgucking insulting and respond to what's being said
If everybody can conduct themselves in an adult fashion why can't you?
Every tinme you behave as you do youi underline the fact that you have no reasonable answer
Teribus did the same beu he was better at it
I have made points that you need to answer (without the bluff or bullshit)
I have no "political points" to score
I draw my opinions out of my life experiences - mainly from growing up from one ofg the "sink estates" you so smugly sneer at as being part of the "socialist dream"
When my sister died unnecessarily last year because of inadequate medical attention she did so because of the shortcomings of a Capitalist society not a socialist one
Now rig off with your pathetic attempts to take people down and answer py points - you arrogant twat
im Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:41 PM

This posing
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:42 AM
Includes two links to the world situation - including Britain
Do you write them off as "from the time of the workhouse" or just "Fake News?
Lets see how you go with them
For some of us, politics is real life and not a dilettante exercise in displaying abusive wit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:44 PM

Labour Party Remainers will be discouraged by the sacking of Owen Smith for calling for a second referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:54 PM

Would anyone care to list the number of conservative MP's who have resigned, sacked or been ousted for various reasons in the past few months.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:02 PM

Well I'm a Labour Party member who desperately wants to see brexit ditched but I've become convinced that calling for a second referendum is wrong because it would lead to another divisive result. Maybe Jeremy wants to try to solve problems, not create new ones. So I'm perfectly happy to see Owen go. Just because he has a nice smiley face doesn't mean that he isn't a thorn in the side of party policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:00 PM

"Labour Party Remainers will be discouraged by the sacking of Owen Smith for calling for a second referendum."
After Mayfly's catastrophic reshuffle - what with those she dismissed and those who were forced to leave for groping women and possessing extreme porn, the Tory party must be full of clinically depressed menmbers
All power to Corbyn's elbow - it's about time he got rid of the dross and quislings, especially those who refuse to condemn the 'race card' tactics of blaming immigrants for Britain's problems
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:09 PM

I see the usual rot is setting in!


The foolish and wicked practice of profane cursing and swearing is a vice so mean and low that every person of sense and character detests and despises it.

George Washington

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:43 PM

Hmmm

Iains, one particular poster, who seems to be hell bent on critisising the Labour party at every available opportunity, utterly fails to see the exact same thing happening within the other political parties.

If this sacking was unusual it may merit comment, as it is anyone who does not follow the party line, irrespective of party, does so knowing their position may be in jeopardy.

Such is the nature of our political system.

I posted earlier would anyone like to list the number of conservative MP" who have been sacked, made to resign or thrown in their cards in recent months.

I am confident that it numbers a good deal more than one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:06 PM

Raggytash I have very little confidence in any of the political parties.
We all know how they behave, so I see little point in keeping score of those that are found out. I am far more concerned that the brexiteers of the political class include a number of quislings. I still expect to see Brexit betrayal and I have zero trust in the foreign secretary. The attempts at negotiations for our departure would be seen as pathetic in a 6th form debating society. Should the democratic vote of the referendum be thwarted then UK politics will be in uncharted waters and anything could happen. MPs would lose what little respect remains for them and it would take little provocation to trigger civil disobedience.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:33 PM

Iains I agree with your first sentence completely. I too have little faith in any political party at present.

However one poster, who unfortunately (for you) happens to be on your side of this discussion, takes every opportunity to castigate the Labour party and is unable to see the exact same things happening within the Conservative party, things that are often happening more frequently and/or to a greater dregree.

You should perhapsbe thankful that a majority of the media is somewhat biased towards the conservative party.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 07:37 PM

!"I see the usual rot is setting in!"
Your permanently abusive behaviour - from day one really, has made "the rot" a permanent feature of any thread you participate in and, until you get a grip of yourself it will remain so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:45 PM

From: DMcG

My daughter is currently involved in some research where this is the first paragraph:

============

In 2013, global news networks reported the collapse of the Rana Plaza garment factory in Bangladesh killing 1,138 garment workers. It resulted in a spontaneous worldwide campaign for changes to the living conditions of workers at the end of the supply chain (Minney, 2016). Little compensation for the garment workers’ families has eventuated from the major Western retailers, i.e. H&M, GAP, Benetton and Walmart. At the same time, the Asia Floor Wage Alliance reports that there are fewnoticeable improvements in factory working conditions, e.g. access to secure fire exists, to drinking water, ventilation and fair wages (Kasperkevic, 2016).

========

It is that kind of thing I think when I hear comments like this:

Jacob Rees-Mogg said regulations that were “good enough for India” could be good enough for the UK – arguing that the UK could go “a very long way” to rolling back high EU standards.

The idea, floated at a hearing of the Treasury Select Committee, was immediately rejected by an economist, who said such a move would likely cause “quite considerable” difficulties.

========

I think people have other rights than the air they breathe. Safe working conditions, for example.

Can I assume, from the above, that DMcG believes that Bangladesh is in India?
If not, the conflation of these two ideas makes no sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:19 AM

Can I assume, from the above, that DMcG believes that Bangladesh is in India?
If not, the conflation of these two ideas makes no sense.

No, of course I don't think Bangladesh is in India (especially as I have visited both). But if you thought Rees-Mogg was only talking about Indian regulations you have a strange view of committee discussions. His point was surely that he felt the EU standards put us at a disadvantage against our potential competitors and India was merely an illustrative example.   What I think makes no sense is to assume he meant India and only India.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:31 AM

Some comments on the sacking from Labour MPs.

Wes Streeting, “If only anti-semites were dealt with as swiftly as remainers.”

former Cabinet minister Lord Hain accused Corbyn of a “terrible Stalinist purge”

Mike Gapes, another Labour MP, said that “apparently (in) Corbyn world free speech is allowed for anti-Semites but not for Labour MPs supporting the views of our members and our 2016 Conference Policy on the EU”.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:37 AM

Everyone else knew what you were saying, DMcG. Don't worry about it.

Not only Labour regulations but food standards, as we have already discussed. On the one hand the government seek to assure us standards will be maintained while on the other Rees-Mogg and his cronies make it blatantly obvious that if they can make a quick buck by lowering standards, they will. As I have said before, the sooner we are shut of them, the better.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 05:20 AM

"What about sustainability? Human cost? Environmental damage?"
Wot abaht it?

Unless ethical shopping becomes embedded in legislation many will continue to buy at the lowest price. Thrift is supposed to be a virtue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 05:30 AM

"Wot abaht it?"
Thre cost of human lives by buyinbg taintd googs abaht it
Not a consideration on somebody who looks on 'lesser beings' as expendable
The same people squeal about immigrants coming to Britain wor work
A bunch of stereotypes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 05:35 AM

Unless ethical shopping becomes embedded in legislation many will continue to buy at the lowest price

That is one approach. But historically we and other countries have favoured the opposite approach of regulating the producers to try to limit those effects. "The Polluter Pays principle", for example. Or requirements on fire safety in buildings to minimise one aspect of human cost. Animal welfare standards, and so on. These are regulations imposed on businesses that do increase their costs but we have as decided (we being the government, or the EU, or the local authority or whatever) that is the best way of sharing the cost-benefit.

This is why I am worried about "bonfire of the regulations" ideas. Certainly, they will typically reduce business costs. But that comes at an unstated price of risks, mainly to individual workers of customers.

Let me illustrate: there are regulations about fire doors in buildings like clubs. It is by no means rare to learn after a fire in such a building that the fire doors were chained shut. This happens because the fire doors are a potential way people can enter the clubs without paying, so to protect profits the more unscrupulous chain the doors (and unchain them when fire inspections take place.)

The regulation is there to protect. Faced with protecting people or protecting their profits, too many go for the profit. And the solution to this according to some? Get rid of the regulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 05:42 AM

Let me be clearer (if only for Nigel!) I am not saying people are specifically calling for an end to regulations about fire doors. I am saying that the majority of regulations are either to agree some standard to simplify trade, or to enforce some 'quality of life' standard. "Bonfire of regulations" ideas tend to aim at the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:20 AM

" Faced with protecting people or protecting their profits, too many go for the profit"
That is why the legislation is in place covering all aspects of life.
But it is also a one size fits all approach. Some are allowed to be killed/injured in order that the majority benefit. Vaccinations are a case in point. A very small minority suffer adverse effects. Similarly if you want a first class defence force accidents will inevitably happen, causing casualties.
The idea of a bonfire of regulations is a cheap totally impractical soundbite. The flak from mass casualties resulting from such a rollback would totally destroy the party responsible. That is not to say that a close re evaluation of legislation is not desirable. How often is legislation repealed rather than added to?
You are creating a remainer myth based on fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:35 AM

" The flak from mass casualties resulting from such a rollback would totally destroy the party responsible"
Politicians before people, do you mean?
Sounds good to me!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:37 AM

Owen Smith's overall stance is one that I can agree with, with the exception of his calling for a second referendum. He's dead right about sleepwalking into a "soft brexit" damaging the economy and I hope that Labour's lukewarmists are listening. But a second referendum goes against party policy and as he won't drop it he has to go. Any opportunistic raking up of "Labour's antisemitism problem" in this context is off-topic and vexatious. Apart from darling Keith who is acting like a dead dog with a dead bone about it, the Labour MPs he quotes, disaffected ex-Blairite-Brownites, are referring to a dead issue concerning a mural that has been scrubbed and about which Corbyn has openly admitted he was wrong. Oh for more politicians of principle!

Did you hear me, Keith? Off-topic. You're the first to moan and groan when any of us dare to do it, remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:42 AM

The idea of a bonfire of regulations is a cheap totally impractical soundbite.

Perhaps, but it is not one of mine. Do you want a link to all the politicians who have said it? Perhaps this link will suffice.

And this extract:

=====
Business Secretary Sajid Javid said:


“This government is delivering on its commitment to free firms from £10 billion of heavy-handed over-regulation and build a more productive Britain. Hundreds of businesses responded to our Cutting Red Tape reviews and we are taking decisive action based on their experiences.

“Whenever we need to introduce new rules, we will consider their impact and make savings elsewhere. Through the Enterprise Bill, we are extending the scope of our deregulation target to cover the actions of regulators, going further than ever before to tackle troublesome red tape.”

A One-in, Two-out rule was introduced by the previous administration, which was the first in recent history to reduce the overall burden of regulation on business. The move to One-in, Three-out for new government legislation raises the bar and will help drive delivery of the £10 billion target.

====

How often is legislation repealed rather than added to?
You are creating a remainer myth based on fantasy.

A "two for one", or a "three for one", policy is all about numbers, not the effect of those regulations, and it is government policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:54 AM

Wot abaht it?

Entire future of life as we know it abaht it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:28 AM

Steve, the sacking was on topic and the reaction of Labour MPs to it relevant.
It has reopened divisions in the party over Brexit and other issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:02 AM

" The flak from mass casualties resulting from such a rollback would totally destroy the party responsible"
Politicians before people, do you mean?"

Further confirmation of a black hole!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:54 AM

Thre cost of human lives by buyinbg taintd googs abaht it

More gibberish

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 09:13 AM

"Further confirmation of a black hole!"
Further evidence of an inability to provide an answer
Your behaviour here is reminiscent of a fractious child running around shouting "knickers" and "poo" in order to shock the adults - outrageous statements such as yours tend to amuse rather than shock
Up to now modern Britain actually has a proud history of taking in refugees from conflicts; sadly, our present generation has allowed that to be expunged from our psyche
Brexit was sold on a campaign of preventing both economic immigrants and refugees from wars we helped create
If pre and wartime Britain had adopted the attitude we are now adopting towards fleeing today's tyranny, there would be far less Jews in the workd than there are.
Now you are suggesting it is acceptable to benefit from products obtained through slave-labour-like conditions - not funny - not clever - and certainly not human
"It has reopened divisions in the party over Brexit and other issues."
If you care to read some of the commentary around what is happening in todays Labour Party rather than seizing every opportunity to denigrate it, you will find that the historical divisions have never gone away - there is still a battle between those who wish to use politics as a meal ticket and those who wish to return to the old principles
That's what many of the claims of "anti-semitism", sexual harassment", et-al are about
Owen was a failed contender for Corbyn's job and he is "reluctant to rule out the question of whether there are too many immigrants".
Personally, I am undecided on the question of his call for a second referendum - Corbyn seems to be following "the will of the people" approach" -hmmm?
Not sure of that, but I see the point of uniting the party around a strong, principled policy
The superfiacial approach you are taking is no less politicking than that taken by Owen and the rest of the dissidents - any stick to beat... will do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 09:26 AM

Here we go, here we go, here we go...............................

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 11:16 AM

I don't want the government and opposition "to follow the will of the people." By that criterion we'd probably have hanging, flogging, obligatory singing of God Save The Queen, conscription and mass repatriation. We elect politicians to make the big decisions in the interests of the country, not pass the buck back to ordinary people who have far less grasp of the issues. And the opposition is there to challenge the government and hold it to account. The whole of the brexit process, from calling the referendum onward, has been a massive failure of democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:23 PM

We elect politicians to make the big decisions in the interests of the country

Those same elected politicians made the decision to have the 2016 referendum, so you must be in favour of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:25 PM

"I don't want the government and opposition "to follow the will of the people."

That takes care of democracy then. Not much point in having a vote if you are promptly disregarded. Brexit being a fine case in point.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:37 PM

"We elect politicians to make the big decisions in the interests of the country

Those same elected politicians made the decision to have the 2016 referendum, so you must be in favour of it."

Hey Troll, ever heard of 'False Equivalence'?
No? Google it, feeble-minded thick-head.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:59 PM

The whole point of elections is that the wishes of the minority bloc of voters can be "disregarded." That's how it works. I just gave you a little list of the kinds of things that governments do, or don't do, which probably go against the wishes of the majority. When's the last time you "wished" that the tax on petrol, or your council tax, would go up? We elect governments to run the country in the general interest, not kowtow to the whims of the populace which would often be predicated on self-interest or prejudice. In the case of the referendum the wishes of sixteen million voters have been "disregarded." And false equivalence indeed, Keith. The decision to hold the referendum was a dereliction of the duties of an elected parliament. It was a terrible decision which effectively held hundreds of MPs hostage. Had they voted against they'd have been toast. It put the future of the country in the hands of an uninformed electorate. And the disgraceful referendum campaign did nothing to inform them. The opposite, in fact. Brainless slogans aimed at the feeble-minded and gullible ruled the roost.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:47 PM

""I don't want the government and opposition "to follow the will of the people."
That takes care of democracy then."
The German People electd tye Nazi Party - how many terms did the British peole give self-confessed fascist, Thatcher?
There's a difference between democracy and populism
Brexit was arrived at by turning one section of the people against the other
Whence democracy then
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:07 PM

Steve,
Had they voted against they'd have been toast.

So those politicians you put so much faith in will vote for anything to preserve their lovely jobs.
Perhaps we should have more referendums.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:24 PM

So those politicians you put so much faith in will vote for anything to preserve their lovely jobs.

Politicians are people too, surprising as that may seem. I am not asking asking anyone to tell us, but I suspect most of us who are long in the tooth have done things to preserve our jobs under instruction from elsewhere, even though we thought it mistaken (I don't mean criminal, just not the best way of proceeding)

The politicians voting on Article 50 had a difficult time precisely because of the referendum. They we elected to use their judgement, then told the population in their constituency disagreed with that judgement. I do not envy them: I cannot be certain of what I would have done In their position.

None of that changes the point they are elected to take decisions for us. If I hired someone - Iains maybe - to fix the roof of my house I would have chosen him after looking at the alternatives and bidders and history with other customers and then would expect him to to the job I hired him for. I would not expect him to be continually knocking on the door asking me to decide how to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:31 PM

"The German People electd tye Nazi Party - how many terms did the British peole give self-confessed fascist, Thatcher?"
Lost the spellchecker, plot and the medication I think! How else to explain such garbage?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:35 PM

It was worse than an uninformed electorate Steve. It was a cynically misinformed electorate.

BTW I am enjoying a glass of Lidl's excellent Gavi as I type. Highly recommended.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:50 PM

The electorate is always misinformed if they rely exclusively on election manifestos. The space between the ears is supposedly for critical thinking, not a mechanism for enabling obesity. The problem with brexit is that the legislation to make the result binding should have been passed by parliament and confirmed prior to the referendum. The wriggle room resulting from that fiasco will be exploited to the full and in years to come brexit will likely be regarded as the event that never was.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:05 PM

It was a cynically misinformed electorate.

Misinformed by who?
Both sides put their case and the people chose.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:12 PM

They have, Iains. As far as I know never so cynically and blatantly as during the referendum campaign though. From Boris's bus to Farage's line of potential terrorists to Osbourne's threatened emergency budget it was one lie after another.

But I am with Steve on this. A second referendum would be wrong and far too divisive. We just need to make sure we get the best out of a bad job and understand who fucked us over in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:19 PM

"Both sides put their case and the people chose."
Only one side placed the race card - that's what won Brexit - by blaming immigrants for the state of Britain (Hitler chose the Jews as scapegoats
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:29 PM

" by blaming immigrants for the state of Britain (Hitler chose the Jews as scapegoats"

More hallucinations!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 04:26 PM

"The space between the ears is supposedly for critical thinking, not a mechanism for enabling obesity."

Well yes, so it is, but my feeling from talking to most people I know is that their transaction with politics is tangential and casual at best. We morons who chew the political fat here are in the very small minority. We watch the ten o'clock news, Newsnight and Question Time (not that the latter helps much). We read the op-eds and the leaders in the non-tabloids and bore the arses off our spouses ranting on about brexit and Boris and Russia. You may not think we "get it," but, hell's teeth, we "get it" more than most of our compatriots, don't we? But look at the figures. About one adult in twenty watches Question Time. The viewing figures for the news are rock-bottom. Sales of the Sun and the Mail and the Mirror outstrip papers with serious journalism almost out of existence. The brain space may be made for critical thinking but the evidence from all that is that most people reserve their critical thinking for matters other than politics. The people who propose solutions for that are not people like you, Iains. The people who propose good political education (not citizenship lip-service crap) are almost exclusively lefties like me. But of course we are subversives, reds under the bed, revolutionary commies when we so much as suggest it. Been there, done it, got the Che t-shirt. It's no use you Tories and other ragbag right-wingers moaning about people voting but not getting it and telling us that they deserve what they get for not using their noddle. It's not only entirely your fault that things are that way, it suits you just fine. There's nothing easier than manipulating the kept-ignorant. My working-class grandad worked on Salford docks all his life and often had to choose between a few pints of a Saturday night and paying the rent. Voted Tory all his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 01:33 PM

"More hallucinations!"#Miore no answers - if that is not a contradiction in terms
Not very good at this - are you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 01:33 PM

"More hallucinations!"#Miore no answers - if that is not a contradiction in terms
Not very good at this - are you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 02:02 PM

Steve I suspect for the majority of voters their voting intent is solidified months before the vote. The last minute megaburger diet of propaganda probably has as much impact on the outcome as exit polls have on predicting the winners.
When I was at school lessons on life skills were nonexistant. A curriculum that covered such things as personal finance, diet, healthy lifestyles, civics, the role of government etc. etc.... should be part of the birthright of the citizen and your profession should have demanded it. Only a fool would advocate the rationing of education. The openings for the unskilled are becoming fewer by the day. Is there not a reason illiteracy rates in the prison population are sky high. We have developed a society that demands basic literacy and numeracy skills, yet are failing many black and white males. Why is the same not true of Indian and Chinese scholars? Nothing to do with respect, aspirations and fully functional family life of course.
This failure is not labour or tory, it is a complete failure of all governments for decades. I am not a teacher ( I have only taught in house courses) but it seems clear to me that a radical overhaul is required especially to help those that have been failed. Modern society cannot afford the complete waste of a totally disfunctional alienated segment of society.
You know far more about the problem that I do, what do you propose doing about it? offering carrots for attending remedial classes? insisting on a minimum qualification in order to quit fulltime education? creating a volunteer force to help backward kids?
I know a few young adults that have been totally failed by the educational system so I would be very interested in seeing some potential solutions for the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 03:11 PM

Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.

Franklin D. Roosevel

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 04:56 PM

Well I was a specialist teacher, being a well-educated scientist, ;-) and I'm not up for pontificating about, for example, early-years education. You don't really want to know what I think about content-stuffed curricula, the terrorising of classroom teachers by a pig-ignorant and ill-trained inspectorate who are there to judge, not support, and a draconian testing regime that pins teachers to the floor and robs them almost entirely of using their imagination and of occasionally going with the flow, the meat and drink of great teaching. Sorry about the one-sentence rant! Unfortunately, what goes on in schools has always been a delicious political football. Everybody has an opinion. Some of those opinions are valuable and valued and some come from the teacher-bashing right-wing press. Getting effective political education into our schools is a vain hope. In fact, to my mind what's far more urgent is the need to address the lack of good education for relationships (not just sex) in the face of online porn and social media. You can put as much muscle as you like into the three Rs, and so you should, but it counts for little if you don't show children how to respect both themselves and others. My view is that schools are seriously lagging behind the real world in those aspects of the education of the young.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 06:31 PM

Sadly the story you relate agrees, almost word for word, with the tale of woe repeated by a couple of recently retired teachers that I know.
The world has changed significantly since I left school. My view is that the present curriculum falls significantly short in attempting to modernise, to reflect those changes. I do not foresee the political will to carry out a fundamental review to make it fit for purpose. Are we trying to educate children/young adults or create pretty pictures for statisticians to place in front of endless committees so we can have an endless game of snakes and ladders playing the league tables.
When I was at school teachers taught, there were no training days, and I remember an inspector in the class once in my entire school career.
Are all the subsequent changes of benefit to the students? What is the point of a permanent inspectorate, surely rotating senior teachers in and out of the inspectorate would benefit all?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 07:43 PM

Quite so. When I was teaching in Walthamstow in the early 80s we had teams of advisory teachers, appointed by the local authority, specific to your subject area, people who had proved their mettle in both classroom and management, whose goal was to get us to see what best practice was and to give us us strategies for achieving it. They didn't pull their punches, they'd tell on you to the headteacher if needed be and they were in no way a part of any cosy in-crowd. They were supportive. They would judge if needed be, and I was certainly judged meself more than once. But the sole aim was to improve teaching in the interests of the kids. The aim of Ofsted has always been political. There is not a scintilla of support in the system. It's one hundred percent judgemental. I think that's very sad, it isn't what classroom teachers need and it does nothing to raise standards. We've had Ofsted for thirty years now. Do you honestly think standards have gone up? You can never do it by being repressive. Don't take my word for it, ask any classroom teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 07:48 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:59 PM

The whole point of elections is that the wishes of the minority bloc of voters can be "disregarded." That's how it works. I just gave you a little list of the kinds of things that governments do, or don't do, which probably go against the wishes of the majority. When's the last time you "wished" that the tax on petrol, or your council tax, would go up? We elect governments to run the country in the general interest, not kowtow to the whims of the populace which would often be predicated on self-interest or prejudice. In the case of the referendum the wishes of sixteen million voters have been "disregarded." And false equivalence indeed, Keith. The decision to hold the referendum was a dereliction of the duties of an elected parliament. It was a terrible decision which effectively held hundreds of MPs hostage. Had they voted against they'd have been toast. It put the future of the country in the hands of an uninformed electorate. And the disgraceful referendum campaign did nothing to inform them. The opposite, in fact. Brainless slogans aimed at the feeble-minded and gullible ruled the roost.

No.
The whole point was that elections were giving us the choice between a Conservative party, and a Labour party. Both of which wished to remain part of the EU.
UKIP were making gains in voting, and the Conservatives (risking being split on the subject) gave the public a vote on whether to leave the EU.
Although the vote didn't go the way they expected, they are now committed to leaving the EU.
The electorate (by majority vote) have now made their wishes clear.
No matter how you attempt to re-write the history of the vote, we have voted to leave the EU.

Arguing that we should remain part of the EU is going against the wishes of the majority of the voting UK electorate.

The wishes of 16 million voters have NOT been disregarded, but they do not have the same force of opinion as the wishes of 17 million voters who voted to leave!

The electorate was not 'uninformed'. The facts were available to everyone. The fact that you came to one decision does not negate the decision that I, and others, came to.

This was not a matter of looking at the views of a 'minority bloc'. Everyone had a say, and the result was clear cut. When (if ever) will you accept that this was democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 08:00 PM

rom: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 07:43 PM

Quite so. When I was teaching in Walthamstow in the early 80s we had teams of advisory teachers, appointed by the local authority, specific to your subject area, people who had proved their mettle in both classroom and management, whose goal was to get us to see what best practice was and to give us us strategies for achieving it. They didn't pull their punches, they'd tell on you to the headteacher if needed be and they were in no way a part of any cosy in-crowd. They were supportive. They would judge if needed be, and I was certainly judged meself more than once. But the sole aim was to improve teaching in the interests of the kids. The aim of Ofsted has always been political. There is not a scintilla of support in the system. It's one hundred percent judgemental. I think that's very sad, it isn't what classroom teachers need and it does nothing to raise standards. We've had Ofsted for thirty years now. Do you honestly think standards have gone up? You can never do it by being repressive. Don't take my word for it, ask any classroom teacher.

"If needed be". Is this a new construction, intended solely for use by 'well educated' school teachers? The usual usage is "if need be".

Of course, Steve Shaw may well know better than everyone else!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 08:05 PM

The referendum was severely skewed. I'm not going to keep going over that, Nigel. It should always be much harder to bring about a fundamental and permanent change, irrevocable, than to vote for the status quo, which is always subject to fairly easy revision. If you can't see that well I'm afraid it makes you a crowing triumphalist, and people like that, like you, find it all too easy to set democracy aside when it suits you to do so. Had you lost the referendum by a similarly narrow margin you would definitely, DEFINITELY, be campaigning for a rerun. I'm not even doing that, am I. Just a reminder, Nigel: you got 38% of the electorate. Just thought I'd mention it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 08:08 PM

Nigel: you got 38% of the electorate.

And how much did you get?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 08:11 PM

Nothing at all wrong with that construction, Nigel. I advise you to not try to pick me up on my use of English. I've refrained from doing that to you out of the goodness of my heart on a number of occasions and I'm more than capable of making a fool of you if you persist in that line of enquiry. I suggest you stick to the topic. There's a good lad.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 08:12 PM

99.999% of sensible people, bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 08:20 PM

"Do you honestly think standards have gone up?"
One of the greatest changes in education in latter years ifs that no matter how well they do at school, kids from LOW INCOME FAMILIES can no longer afford to participate in further education - a total waste of humanity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 02:09 AM

What is often missed in the "further education" arguments is that the student loan system applies for the Batchelor degrees but not for Masters or PhDs (unless it has changed in the last 5 years or so). So you don't have to be from a low oncome family to be priced out of these higher degrees.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 04:37 AM

Hanging a price-tag on education

HERE

HERE

AND HERE
Lower fincome families get it all ways - largely excluded from higher education, saddled with a huge debt at a time when they are finding their feet in life and forced to take work the can' live on and are nor suited to
A total waste of humanity
In this situation, the quality of education is meaningless
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 05:55 AM

Ah, it seems student loans are being introduced for the first time in the UK for PhDs from 1 August 2018.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 06:29 AM

The impact of family income largely depends on what part of the educational cycle is being considered. This really only applies to secondary level education, where there is a proven link between income and attainment. However family income is only a suitable measure, it hides a far more complex relationship.
For tertiary education a loan system is open to all and repayment rates are coupled to subsequent income level. So family income should have a negligible impact for most.
For post graduate degrees the availability of funding largely depends on the subject matter. The more industry orientated the degree, the greater availability of funding
If you are at the bottom of the heap on a sink estate you face some severe challenges trying   to obtain a good education. Breaking that relationship requires political will and serious investment. Unfortunately life is not fair and never has been. Lip service has been paid to keeping such kids healthy, fed and clothed but little has been done to offer opportunity and hope for them. There is a token acceptance of their rights, but nothing concrete to guarantee them.
We abuse pensioners in care   and deny basic rights to many impoverished children. So much for a caring society!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:05 AM

"The impact of family income largely depends on what part of the educational cycle is being considered. "
No it doesn't - one of the major stumbling blocks in educating away from home is the predatory nature of student accommodation
Industry education grants are more about keeping kids in their place rather than meeting aspiration
The appalling state and lack of a future for British industry (what industry??) is an incentive to get out and try something else - out of the question for lower income families
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:13 AM

Jim. Bollocks. You spout absolute shit at times. There is no other way to describe it. You do not even understand what is being stated before wading in with your bogtrotter drivelling. Either keep up, or keep out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:10 AM

From: Steve Shaw -
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 08:05 PM

The referendum was severely skewed. I'm not going to keep going over that, Nigel. It should always be much harder to bring about a fundamental and permanent change, irrevocable, than to vote for the status quo, which is always subject to fairly easy revision. If you can't see that well I'm afraid it makes you a crowing triumphalist, and people like that, like you, find it all too easy to set democracy aside when it suits you to do so. Had you lost the referendum by a similarly narrow margin you would definitely, DEFINITELY, be campaigning for a rerun. I'm not even doing that, am I. Just a reminder, Nigel: you got 38% of the electorate. Just thought I'd mention it.

While 'Remain' got less than 38%.
However you read it, number of voters, percentage of the electorate, percentage of those who actually voted, or percentage of total population of the UK, the result will always show a preference for Brexit and against Remain of 52 to 48.

If a second referendum was required would you be insisting that the 'current' status quo (that we are leaving the EU) could only be overturned if Remain get 66% of the vote with a 75% turnover? Or does that only apply to votes where you disagree with the outcome? (Keeping in mind that the 1975 referendum was based on 67% of a 64% turnout)

And he's also dead right about the bar being set far too low, a point I've made here again and again - the referendum's alternative answers, in or out, were way too skewed for them to be able to be properly subjected to a simple majority of the turnout. Vote to remain and we can easily try again and again to turn it around, just as we do in general elections every few years. Vote to leave (assuming we do leave as the politicians fail to see the light) and it's irrevocable by every practical consideration. Two-thirds of a minimum 75% turnout vote to leave, or even better, no referendum at all, would have been a far better way to go. The quality of the brexiteers' attitude is betrayed by their idiotic "people-have-spoken" crowing over this disastrous state of affairs (38%, remember?) and their calling US undemocratic for continuing to complain and campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:16 AM

"There is no other way to describe it."]
Then why not try instead of vomiting your stream of racist "bogtrotter"
abuse?
it really is time the moderated took a grip of BNP trolls on this forum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:20 AM

No, Nigel. At risk of repeating myself, the bar should be set high for making major irreversible changes to the direction of a country, not for simply retaining the status quo. If you don't set that bar high the referendum is seriously skewed. Once we leave there's no way back. If we vote to stay we can easily revise that decision in the future, and there's no doubt in my mind that, had you lost, that's precisely what you'd be campaigning for right now. And, again at risk of repeating myself, I don't want another referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:22 AM

"bogtrotter"
Apart from tha fact I am a Brit, do we really have to put up from this racist shite from an obvious BNP plant ?
Where are the mods when this racists serial insulting takes place?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:25 AM

Steve:
I don't want another referendum either. I just want them to get on with implementing the decision of the last one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:27 AM

By the way, Nigel, the 1975 referendum was not a mirror of the last one. We were already in the EEC. The 67% vote was to retain the status quo, not to change anything. Your point falls, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 09:50 AM

Well I don't want them to implement that extremely unwise decision. I want them, by which I mean all the main party leaders, to make a joint declaration that as there is no prospect of brexit ever being in the interests of this country they are abandoning the project, on condition that the EU agrees to a programme of fundamental reform. That would be bloody unpopular but I'd rather they did something bloody unpopular than take this country to hell in a handcart, which is clearly what's happening right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:26 PM

Tongue in cheek, my daughter has just texted that she thinks she now supports Brexit ....



She is in Paris and wants to protect France from us!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 09:16 PM

We live in interesting times. If the Vote Leave campaign broke the spending rules, the referendum result is invalid. The vote was close enough for the argument to be made that unfair shenanigans by one side could have tipped the result. Of course, the establishment will, as I type, be frantically scuttling around trying to find a veil to throw over this. But what if they can't? It could be the end of Brexit. I wouldn't mind betting that the lawyers are sharpening their claws. There won't be a rerun. We've gone past that. This could be the opportunity for all sane politicians to seize the day and tell us once for all that we mustn't go any further. For our children's sake if nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 04:07 AM

From Here
A freedom of information response last month revealed the Electoral Commission found “no reasonable grounds to suspect that any breaches” of the spending rules had occurred.
The watchdog has defended its decision in an email to InFacts, citing the EU Referendum Act, arguing a “common plan or arrangement” between Vote Leave and BeLeave had to be in place for joint spending rules to apply, and that it was fine for separate campaign groups to “liaise and discuss campaigning approaches”. What’s more, Vote Leave’s payment directly to AggregateIQ on behalf of BeLeave was also “acceptable under the law”.
The Good Law Project say this misses the point. The main issue is not whether the two groups had a “common plan”, and therefore whether the donations count as joint spending and should have been registered by Vote Leave (although it seems clear they were working together). Rather the Good Law Project argues that these payments are not donations at all, but straightforward referendum spending by Vote Leave. To deny this is to undermine the purpose of the law, which is in place to stop wealthy campaigners spending potentially unlimited sums of money by, for example, buying services for others who are known to be campaigning for the same result.
The Electoral Commission told InFacts it had no further comment to make on this point.
The Good Law Project is also demanding answers from the Electoral Commission. In particular, have there been other investigations into similar arrangements with other groups? Vote Leave are known to have also given £100,000 to Veterans For Britain for AggregateIQ’s services.
If the case is successful, the Electoral Commission’s decision to accept the Leave campaign’s spending will be quashed. It will then have to reopen its investigation into Vote Leave and maybe prosecute it. Ultimately the validity of the referendum could be brought into question.
Pro-Europeans in Parliament and across civil society must make a noise about this, and demand those responsible brought to account. Otherwise Britain might have been dragged out of Europe on the basis of a potentially illegal campaign.
You can make a contribution to the Good Law Project’s work on this case via their Crowd Justice page.

Even if the payment was illegal (and the Electoral Commission say it wasn't) it is dwarfed by the Nine Million Pounds spent by the government issuing Remain propaganda to every household in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 05:15 AM

In fact, the Electoral Commission has been obliged to revisit the issue following a juducial review, and, as far as I know, they have yet to report.

On the issue of the government's spending on the referendum campaign, you're opening a moral question, not one of rule-breaking. I'd argue against your point on the grounds that, in a democracy, the elected government of the day generally takes partisan stances in formulating policy and, in many cases, will legitimately spend money on publicising its policies. I can't see the brexit issue as being any different. The Cameron administration was always openly pro-EU/pro-remain and was, yes, spending taxpayer money in promoting that idea. No rules were broken, but an opposition party could conceivably have used that spending decision to criticise the government, either straight away or in a subsequent election campaign. Holding governments to account apropos of even their legal spending is part of our democracy. The difference is that no rules were broken. We don't quite yet live in the Wild West. If rules were broken in significant and deliberate ways, then the referendum was not valid. We're human beings and we can generally ignore minor and/or accidental breaches that can be shown not to have have had a significant impact on the outcome. We are not in that territory here, possibly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 06:42 AM

LEAVE BeLEAVE SCAM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 06:55 AM

If we are going to study the minutiae of election expenditure pre brexit referendum then perhaps the impact of taxpayers money funding a very biased BBC should also be considered. We need to ensure a level playing field for all aspects of expenditure impacting the vote.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/804495/bbc-bias-independent-report-brexit-eu-referendum

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:15 AM

That's not the same issue as breaking the rules. We can all have opinions on what constitutes fair expenditure, but if rules are laid down which are then significantly and deliberately breached by one side then that's a totally different issue. I don't necessarily think that this is a question of "minutiae" either. I wouldn't be excusing it even had the leave vote been resounding, but it was not resounding. It was a close-run thing. Anyway, we'll see what transpires today no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:22 AM

And we've been here before with the BBC. It is a decidedly right-wing organisation. Its most influential correspondents are nearly all from solid Tory stock. Paxman fronted Newsnight for many years. A self-confessed Tory. Andrew Neil has been a Tory researcher and was a leading light in the Murdoch empire for many years. Kalil Ahmed was the business editor of the Daily and Sunday Telegraph. Nick Robinson was chairman of the Young Conservatives. And anyone enduring those Dimblebys is never going to exactly tell you what reds under the beds they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:41 AM

A yougov poll suggests otherwise.

"People aren’t stupid, by 3 to 1 more people think the BBC is anti – than pro Brexit, when over a quarter of the audience has come to the conclusion the BBC is biased there is a real problem, because if we don’t want to read the most partisan newspapers we don’t buy them. The BBC’s funding forces us all to pay for it and we expect to be impartial as a result. It is manifestly not perceived as a source of impartial information on this polarising issue."

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/s8s93cmvos/InternalResults_180219_NewspapersBrexit.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 08:50 AM

In fact, the Electoral Commission has been obliged to revisit the issue following a juducial review, and, as far as I know, they have yet to report.

As this is an EU matter, maybe the Electoral Commission will be asked to review its considered opinion again, and again, until it gives the answer the EU (and Remainers) would like.
Just like: Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland on the Lisbon Treaty

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 09:02 AM

or as the Eagles elegantly phrased it in Hotel California:

'Relax' said the night man,
'We are programmed to receive.
You can check out any time you like,
But you can never leave!'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 09:40 AM

Er, the running of the referendum was not in any way an EU matter. It was an internal UK matter. I know you'd like to blame the EU for everything including last week's snowstorms, but let's be sensible about this, Nigel.

Perceptions can't really trump facts, Iains. If you think the Beeb has revealed any anti-brexit bias, give us an example or two. I've seen a lot of neutrality but little hint of bias one way or the other. Generally, the correspondents try to keep their own predilections to themselves, even those Tories I listed, though Jonathan Dimbleby always gives lefties a hard time in my opinion. Last night, Emily M. was very indulgent towards the appalling Louise Ellman and the charmless Laura K. cut the Corbynistas no slack. We can all pick out nuance like that, but on the whole I don't see too much express bias. And the Question Time audience is routinely infested with braying little Englander brexiteers, usually well-indulged by Dimbleby. If you don't like the Beeb much, seek refuge in the Mail for your confirmation bias. And don't pretend that it costs you nowt so to do, unlike the licence fee. You have to buy the paper and all that advertising makes things much more expensive to buy. AND the editor evades tax. Swings 'n' roundabouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 10:10 AM

Nigel Parsons:
As this is an EU matter, maybe the Electoral Commission will be asked to review its considered opinion again, and again, until it gives the answer the EU (and Remainers) would like

Steve Shaw.
Er, the running of the referendum was not in any way an EU matter. It was an internal UK matter. I know you'd like to blame the EU for everything including last week's snowstorms, but let's be sensible about this, Nigel.

The referendum was not run by the EU. They would never have originated the referendum. However the subject matter of the referendum was definitely an EU matter (can we get out of the EU).

It's nice to see that you accept that you're not being sensible. (assuming you don't have your own personal meaning for the contraction "let's")

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 10:45 AM

"That's not the same issue as breaking the rules. "
I totally agree
The economic institutions were overwhelmingly against Brexit and the stop-go economy and predictions that Britain will have an unstable economy have proved them right
This referendum was run as a Little Britain HATE CAMPAIGN and a large enough minority ove the British people fell for it, to their shame
Let's hope their children don't regret it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 10:46 AM

"And don't pretend that it costs you nowt so to do, unlike the licence fee."
I do not think I have bought a newspaper in over 20 years. I attempt to read them online. That is why I use the mail a lot. They pack more news into their website than any other, unlike the gruniard that is always begging and stuffed full of tree huggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 11:33 AM

I'm not keen on the begging either, though I'm not sure how you know that we're all tree-huggers. As a matter of fact I've just been hacking down a large beech that the birds perch on in order to shit on our washing. The Guardian does not have the luxury of the Mail's circulation and advertising revenues, and, unlike some, is trying to exist without a paywall. Hence the begging. It's voluntary, of course. The Mail may seem to pack in more news, but that's because they pad out their "news" with embedded comment. Try to spot it. Not hard.

Nigel, the EU has nothing to do with our Electoral Commission. Do be told.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 12:27 PM

I think you will find the mail offers far more "news" items than any other online paper. For a reasonably comprehensive view of what is going on it takes some beating. Now whether you agree with the editorial slant is another matter entirely. But then the internet offers numerous routes to check, interrogate, or amplify any given article so there is no real excuse to taking anything as fact without cross checking. Even then a cautious person would be suspicious. That is why I find it hilarious that anyone is sucker enough to latch on to the source rather than the content in order to gauge the validity of what is on offer, and we all know who they are!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 01:13 PM

I get a free copy of the Mail once a week and I promise you that I force myself to read it. I'm not dissing a source because it's a whatever source, but I've seen enough of it to know what the thing is like.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 02:01 PM

I thinl "Just a Minute" would be buzzing away with "deviation"

We are talking about a possible breach of the rules by one section of the Leave campaign.

The Mail is not relevant to the chargw.
The Guardian is not relevant to the charge.

The BBC is not relevant to the charge.
Thw rolw of the EU is not relevant to the charge.

All a smokescreen to hide the potential breach of thw rules by a section of the Leave campaogn.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 02:13 PM

Sigh. Even for me, the typos in that are excessive.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:10 PM

The whistleblower Chris Wylie acquitted himself exceptionally well, I thought, in his interview with the unprincipled-sounding Kirsty Wark on Newsnight tonight. Maybe she was doing her devil's-advocate bit, but she seemed to be persistently suggesting that the cheating wasn't that important because it might not have affected the result anyway. Well that's all right then. So much for principles, so much for democracy. Cheat as much as you like as long as you can convince yourself that you probably won't affect the outcome. Sheesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 07:32 PM

Nive tto see "I think you will find the mail offers far more "news" "
news in inverted commas, where it belongs
The Daaaily Mail has never broken free of its ORIGINS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 01:35 AM

The meaning of life the universe and everything x 42!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 02:43 AM

Or even x 100!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 03:36 AM

The meaning of life the universe and everything x 42!

So, if the meaning of life, etc. is 42 then that figure is 42*42!
42! is approx. 1.405*10^51

Excess use of exclamation marks can be a problem, especially when used with numbers, as they signify a 'factorial' function.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 03:57 AM

No one likes a smart arse... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 04:20 AM

"Nive tto see "I think you will find the mail offers far more "news" "
news in inverted commas, where it belongs"

Or a dumb ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 04:52 AM

When this story first broke I remember seeing two interviews where two different protagonists were asked "What evidence do you have?" several times each. Both answered to the effect that 'questions must be answered'. Neither offered any evidence.

This leaves two possibilities. Either there is no evidence or neither interviewee wanted to reveal what evidence they had. The echo chamber here will discount the first possibility so let's look at the second. They were unwilling to reveal their evidence. To me that also leaves two possibilities and one of them is that they don't actually have any. They are just throwing mud at the wall knowing that some of it will stick, for a while at least. The other possibility is that whatever evidence they have is so weak that it will not stand up to widespread scrutiny.

The electoral commission has looked at this case twice already and found nothing wrong. Perhaps they are just hoping for third time lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 05:00 AM

"Or a dumb ass."
More erudition
You are becoming extremely boring with your abuse Iains
I wonder which of these you are most proud of
Jim Carroll

From: Iains - PM
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 10:46 PM
Twat.??

From: Iains - PM
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:29 AM
Jimmie I copied your little packmate shaw's insult to me just to watch your entirely predictable behaviour. You and your wannabe bullies apparently think you have carte blanche to post whatever you like, yet act like stuck pigs when the tables are turned. Did you censure the idiot shaw for his gratuitous insult above? One law for the pack and one for the rest of us is it?
When you cannot reciprocate in the discussion with well constructed argument you resort to insult-presumably to make all those people embarrassing you go away, by having the thread closed. What a silly little man you are!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:17 AM
It is no surprise contributors below the line are diminishing with the above learned contributions from our resident boasting "well educated scientist" Shaw you are a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 05:02 AM

Sorry - missed a bit
Your main contribution to one single thread
Jim Carroll

From: Iains - PM
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 10:46 PM
Twat.??

From: Iains - PM
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 03:29 AM
Jimmie I copied your little packmate shaw's insult to me just to watch your entirely predictable behaviour. You and your wannabe bullies apparently think you have carte blanche to post whatever you like, yet act like stuck pigs when the tables are turned. Did you censure the idiot shaw for his gratuitous insult above? One law for the pack and one for the rest of us is it?
When you cannot reciprocate in the discussion with well constructed argument you resort to insult-presumably to make all those people embarrassing you go away, by having the thread closed. What a silly little man you are!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:17 AM
It is no surprise contributors below the line are diminishing with the above learned contributions from our resident boasting "well educated scientist" Shaw you are a fool.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:36 AM
For STEVIE BLUNDER "When did I ever say I was well-educated?"
Tell me did you leave Catholicism because God decided he could not be a**sed to argue with you any longer?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:05 PM
So Shaw why do you not correct jimmies unique massacre of the english language? After all for a well educated "polymath" such as yourself it would be merely the matter of a moment.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 03:26 AM
Calm down Shaw you are getting hysterical. Is that because it took you two days to conjure up a response in the earthquake thread? The strain a bit too much for you?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:46 AM
Nought to do with bent bananas or dodgy cucumbers you stupid boy!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 03:30 AM
Getting very tetchy shaw! Is this because a few more are having the audacity to question your incessant gibberings?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 02:22 PM
But Shaw, our arguments are based on fact whereas yours are based on a complete fantasy. Your hubris blinds you to reality, you poor soul.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 10:43 AM
Is that a simple explanation from a simple mind?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 12:50 PM
Greg if you wish to publicly display your stupidity please continue.
Your nonsense is best confined to your insult the president thread", where all opposition is deleted

From: Iains - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 04:35 PM
I fawt you was well educated! Let's see, in the last week you have claimed to be a scientist, a biologist, a zoologist. What are you claiming to be this coming week - a boring sandal wearing ex teacher that knows nothing? Are you perhaps a Walter Mitty?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 04:51 AM
The lad shaw is permanently confused: And as I said previously, a Walter Mitty

From: Iains - PM
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 03:36 PM
As mad as a hatter! Must be a remainder/remoaner.
Congratulations to Guido for unmasking this nutty professor.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 08:47 AM
"Someone to be taken very, very seriously - obviously!!"
You and your equally pathetic mates evidently think so, otherwise you would not continuously babble on about him.
I'm glad you appreciate his incisive style of accurate journalism.
No False news for him, by jingo!!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 12:02 PM
Here you are jimmie. Specially for you and your pathetic little mates.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 01:39 PM
So Jimmie is the independent the equivalent of Guido? a right wing site which excels itself in peddling conspiracy theories "
Someone to be taken very, very seriously - obviously!!
Answers on half a postcard please. Otherwise I may get bored.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 05:07 PM

D the G. I enjoy a circus, especially this one!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 29 Nov 17 - 06:06 PM
"In reality, you're one of the clowns."
Impossible my dear boy, when up against the likes of you! It is so much easier to choreograph the clowns.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 03:39 AM
What a pathetic little creature you are gnome. Pop back under your stone there's a good lad.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 06:29 AM
Jimmie and poxy little gnome. Try growing up!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 12:42 PM
Oh dear. Poor little mudrats. Is it the onset of second childhood or approaching senility that requires scraping the barrel for something to post. I put the Abbopotomus in the same category as you three. To be treated with the uttermost contempt.
Shaw:Calling politicians names and lampooning them is all par for the course. 'Twas ever thus. In fact, it's a healthy sign that we live in a democracy and not a dictatorship, in which "disrespecting" leaders could cost you your head. You silly little man.
Jimmie"Mayflower naused up her majority in an attempt to strengthen her hand and was forced to bung a Party with terrorist connections £1billion of the taxpayers money to clean up her mess"
The gnome." conniving scumbags like Farage"
Makes your previous posts kook rather pathetic. Doncha think? or perhaps that is the problem. You do not.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 30 Nov 17 - 02:11 PM
Hey Jimmie, you may be able to read but comprehension has to be labelled. MUST TRY HARDER!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 02:25 PM
Something for the rats to chew on!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 01 Dec 17 - 05:26 PM
It is not in the nature of you and your ilk to ignore a post. The rest of us totally ignore the bulk of the postings here. You are hooked on the sound of your own chattering, hence your vast number of posts.
As exemplified by the arch chatterer above.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 03:51 AM
Most have been driven away by your constant wittering.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:57 AM
The mudrats chorused, as predicted.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 02:05 PM
A tad hypocritical you mudrats, doncha think?
(and do try proofreading before you post. It would help us decipher what you are trying to babble about)
What an earth is hyou when it is home? An incantation to the God of bullshit?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 05:59 AM
Meanwhile the mudrat bullies can continue without censure.
No surprise few people continue to contribute to the BS part of mudcat.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 06:33 PM
The wizened little gnome definitely belongs on a different planet.
If not suggesting the opponents are stupid then the only other people left in the equation are himself and all who sail with him.
As the old adage goes:
Stupid is as stupid does

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains - PM
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 03:43 AM
Nice to see all the rats gather. Those that post the most irritate the most. Think how much better the forum would be if you all got a life.
"Anyone who considers this forum in terms of opponents and supporters is just not worth wasting time on."
What a funny little creature you are. You consistently post arrant nonsense.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 05:58 AM
The gnome is actually an accomplished verbal chameleon. He changes his argument as soon as he is challenged.
Now who might the others be on this forum that behave in like manner?
A clue. They spend most of the day babbling on mudcat to provide a false persona of assumed superiority to cover for their real life inadequacies.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 06:28 AM
I recommend you watch the follow on pizza video. It reminds me of many mindless discussions on mudcat.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 04:53 AM
Keith. The usual suspects treat the forum as a private club and as soon as the topic under discussion becomes uncomfortable for them they start their infantile tactics:
Discussing weeds, cheap booze and football.
Form into a ratpack and start bullying.
They then appeal to the moderators to close the thread.
Failing all the above they resort to trolling and puerile insults.
They also have a mutual appreciation society, where they can slap each other on the back when they feel they have trounced all contributors.
I suppose we should really feel sorry for them. If you look how many times a day they post, it is obvious they see reality in the cyber world. Perhaps the real world exposes their numerous inadequacies too sharply for comfort. Sad ,sad little men all of them.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 12:06 PM
Greg you disappoint me. I was under the misapprehension that you possessed half a brain cell. Obviously I was wrong. You are obviously listening too much to jimmie the half a b.
This is quite unlike your goodself and jimmy who can rightly claim to be leading gobshites.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 03:16 AM

"Ignore it, chaps."
I see the thread is graced with a festive clown!

Date: 31 Dec 17 - 10:35 AM
Twerp!!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 02:08 PM
jimmie i refer you to my posts:
Read assimilate digest you obnoxious little shit!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 01:24 PM
Hey jimmie. did they ever teach you to read at school? Valid ID is required, as I stated.
If you took your head out of your arse you would not have shit for brains!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 02:46 PM
Backwoodsman.
Do try to post something sensible.
Your last post is nothing but a pathetic attempt to troll, and you appear barely capable of doing that properly!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains - PM
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:50 PM
Teribus, do you read anything other than pro-Brexit Tory Shit-Rags?


From: Iains - PM
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 04:23 AM
Well stevie blunder congratulations on the cut and paste. Repetition merely enforces my point of view, even a fool realises that!
Was it a failed attempt to make a link that lead to the crying "
Bwahahahaha! "
My commiserations. Keep trying. If a monkey can tap out a bible passage, there may be glimmer of hope for you yet!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:46 AM
I thought it hilarious. Just shows what miserable bas****ds the remainers are.


From: Iains - PM
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 05:54 AM
What a silly fellow you are backw...

From: Iains - PM
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 04:14 PM
and being called shaw does not mean you always have to be a total prat
you patronising little shit!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 09:35 AM
Is little jimmy trying to close another thread?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:10 AM
Unlike you shaw I do not feel a need to boast about my education.
You merely betray your constant insecurity by constantly harping on about it.
By the way, are you a well educated scientist, a botanist, or ex teacher? You have an ego big enough to compete with God, Christ only knows why!
Here is a link to diminish your pig ignorance.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 09:42 AM
Well gnomie I suspect besides being short and fat you must have very dodgy vision. I recommend a trip to specsavers. They'll see you alright. Or perhaps you have wandered off to another planet or deliberately misinterpret language?
Also you and your fellow mudrats are past masters at the art of derailing posts by babbling irrelevancies. I have not yet derailed a discussion unlike your good selves!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:16 PM
"I'm an oldie",
that surely is the least of your many problems.
Being a well educated scientist, biologist, botanist, ex teacher, former union activist, that does not do belief, and confuses fact with fiction and weaponises whimsy. You have Dissociative identity disorder
perhaps?
Greg. I wonder why you bother to post? I cannot believe anyone takes your stupid, foolish, pointless, brainless, mindless, senseless, doltish, idiotic, imbecilic, insane, ridiculous, ludicrous, absurd, preposterous, nonsensical, fatuous, silly, childish, infantile, puerile, immature, juvenile, inane, witless, half-baked, empty-headed, unintelligent, half-witted, slow-witted, weak-minded; crazy, dumb, cretinous, moronic, gormless, daft,dumb-ass,chowderheaded scribings seriously!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 10:16 AM
To date the lowlife behaviour seems restricted to remoaners.
I see shaw is still picking on grammar-what a sad little fellow!
If he has to resort to such devices to massage his ego it says little for the man, doncha think?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 11:28 AM
D the G.
I suggest you hop back on the magic roundabout and keep going around.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 12:25 PM
Greg. Away with the faeries again? Are you simply tripping by or attempting to troll?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 12:20 PM
Perhaps jimmy has spent too much time with the littlepeople. In his case away with the faeries.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 06:19 PM
What a pathetic little man you are jimmy. I think we can leave my children out of this. The fact that you feel it necessary to bring them into the discussion does not say much for your character does it?
In fact you are something I would make a point of scraping off my boot before venturing into the house, as you would definitely pose a health hazard.
You have some nerve to pick holes in my postings. Hell you cannot even copy and paste without screwing it up, and you obviously put so much bile into your posts that you fire them away before even proofreading them.
If all you can post are spittle flecked rants perhaps you should stop. It appears that all you manage accomplish with threads is fuck them up. Maybe you should spend more time in the rocking chair and less on the keyboard. You may feel that you are a self proclaimed expert on folkmusic but judging by your posts on other subjects expertise is not the word that springs to mind when considering the content. You are an anachronism- Why do you not just go away?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:30 AM
Puts you in the same category of lowlife as jimmy. We all know that the ranter makes no attempt to control what he posts but for a "well educated whatever you are I am surprised you support him insulting people he has never met and thankfully never likely to.
But then you mudrats do like to stick together.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 11:48 AM
I see our sour little scouser is still biting on lemons as he gibbers away! Tell me, are your random keystrokes part of a contest between yourself and a monkey? To see who can type something sensible first?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 01:27 PM
I.m glad you agree with me about gibbering. does your speech have as many impediments as your attempted spelling? try less lemon!

From: Iains - PM
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:18 PM
"Schoolmaster Shaw appears to enjoy a level of literacy that poor Iains can only dream of (and that's not even bragging). Observe, Nigel:
"Sadly some adults can also be a naif."
Observe Idiot,
Naif a less common word for naive. adj. 1590s, from French naif, literally "naive". As a noun, first attested 1893, from French, where Old French naif also meant "native inhabitant; simpleton, natural fool."
So tell me shaw, you pretentious little fellow, which one are you?
a simpleton? or natural fool?"

From: Iains - PM
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 03:38 AM
That can only happen when shaw ceases to be a twat.
Do you think it within his limited capabilities?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 05:26 AM
" child-like grasp of politics" Not only does he have that, but jimmy lives in a timewarp.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 05:14 PM
Strolling out for a troll again shaw? If you have nothing to contribute, you could simply keep quiet. I realise this could be quite a departure for someone as opinionated as yourself.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 07:36 AM
"You people really need to get into the real world"
What planet are you on today jimmie?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 01:29 PM
Have you tried therapy?

From: Iains - PM
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:13 AM
Jim. Bollocks. You spout absolute shit at times. There is no other way to describe it. You do not even understand what is being stated before wading in with your bogtrotter drivelling. Either keep up, or keep out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 05:07 AM

what a silly game! Still at least with shining examples of copy and paste we escape the constant mangleation of the poor english language.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 05:39 AM

It's there forever on the internet, Iains. That's the trouble. Can't fix it but behaviour can at least evolve.

Well, Stanron, you seem to have made your mind up that there can't have been any cheating, mud thrown, some will stick, etc. In fact, the Electoral Commission is obliged to look at new allegations, which is what these are. They've said that the enquiry into the spending is still open and that they don't comment on ongoing issues. "They've looked at this twice already" doesn't really cut it. If there's new information, so be it. I thunk that we should all want to know that the referendum was conducted fairly and it ill-behoves people on the leave side, which won by a narrow margin only, to try to shut the door on this. That just makes things look even more suspicious. Let's see what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 05:40 AM

I thunk? I still do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 05:47 AM

"what a silly game!"
Bit weak - even for youp
If you are unable to control your idiotic behaviour, at least you might try and put a bit of thought behind it and make it entertaining
This is idiotic drivel and you ***** know it if you ane not really the imbecile you project yourself as
Typos - really!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 08:57 AM

From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 03:57 AM

No one likes a smart arse... :-)

Oh, I do. Kylie Minogue for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 09:02 AM

Tsk, Nigel. How politically incorrect can you get.



So do I.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 09:07 AM

I could have said "Carol Vorderman". Then you wouldn't have known whether I was referencing intelligence or looks.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 09:08 AM

Stop saying things I'm forced to agree with, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 09:13 AM

Maybe Kylie is as smart as Carol!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 09:18 AM

"Carol Vorderman".
"Tottie with brains - a deadly combination" as she was referred to in Liverpool
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 09:35 AM

Used to be Joan Bakewell at one time. Jayz, I'm showing my age...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 09:54 AM

I think Joan Bakewell was "The thinking man's crumpet".

There again, there's Alison Balsom
"The thinking man's Trumpet".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 10:07 AM

"The thinking man's Trumpet".
MY GENERATION I'M AFRAID NIGEL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 12:46 PM

I preferred Anneka Rice in a jumpsuit.

By way congratulations on the extensive cut and paste jimmie. Good to know you can get at least one thing right, doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 07:54 PM

Try even harder than you have done recently not to be a twat, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 08:31 PM

"By way congratulations on the extensive cut and paste jimmie. "
I've made a start on another thread, so keep it up, plenty more to go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 03:19 AM

11 Brexit promises the government quietly dropped

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 04:03 AM

From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 03:19 AM

11 Brexit promises the government quietly dropped

An interesting link.
The "11 promises" are not all phrased as 'promises', some are aspirations, some just comments on how things are/were expected to happen.
The details of how the promises have been 'dropped' relate to matters still under discussion.
The time to discuss 'broken promises' is when promises have actually been broken. Much of what the link gives as having happened is still subject to negotiation.

Basically, typical Guardian hype.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 04:15 AM

"The "11 promises" are not all phrased as 'promises', some are aspirations,"
Do you think those who voted saw them as that Nigel?
Like all election "promises, they were a con to win the vote for something else entirely
Immediately May Blossom "promised" that there would be "no hard border" her henchmen were there telling us that it was only an "aspiration", as essential as the matter is to the Irish people and the peace process
Waiting for the promises to be be broken is very much acting after the horse is bolted - are you joking?
Not so much "typical Guardian hype", more politicians speaking with forked tongues, as usual
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 04:17 AM

Whatever they were, they were used by the leave campaign to influence people. And, yes, before you say it, I have already acknowledged that the remain campaign were guilty of giving misinformation as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 04:35 AM

"I've made a start on another thread, so keep it up, plenty more to go"
Feel free to waste your time! However if you wish to attribute statements to me do try to get it right. There are several in your list that sadly are jom lies. Seems you cannot even copy and paste correctly.
Also shaw can use "twat" with gay abandon and get a gold star. I repeat it and apparently armegeddon has arrived.
How puerile.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 04:54 AM

http://www.cityam.com/283078/finance-jobs-expected-moved-out-uk-due-brexit-now-half


https://order-order.com/2018/03/26/remain-campaign-used-exactly-spending-tactics-vote-leave-far-worse/









https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-donations/details-of-ma

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 05:05 AM

"How puerile."
Your childish abuse is what is purile Iains - others respond (often badly) to your behaviour - you've behaved as you do from day one - go check
It's quite satisfying to bring a bully down, but it's far more pleasurable to watch him (it's always a man) bring himself down
While you continue to behave as you do, I'll continue to display your behaviour in bulk
The answer lies in your adopting a little self control and respect for others
Simples
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 05:18 AM

Some more "Guardian hype"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 05:23 AM

Whatever they were, they were used by the leave campaign to influence people.
Looking at just the first 'promise'. There are quotes from 4 persons.
Three of those quotes date from after the referendum (23/6/16). I doubt that people were influenced in their voting by those quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 05:29 AM

"I doubt that people were influenced in their voting by those quotes."
Why did people voye as they did if it wasn't because of what they were told at the time?
All politics is based on promises of 'Pie in the Sky'
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 05:51 AM

"I doubt that people were influenced in their voting by those quotes."
Why did people voye as they did if it wasn't because of what they were told at the time?

As I pointed out, the quotes given by the Guardian often date from after the referendum. People can't have been influenced by these quotes in their referendum decisions. So these quotes weren't "what they were told at the time".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 07:25 AM

Whatever they were, they were used by the leave campaign to influence people.
Looking at just the first 'promise'. There are quotes from 4 persons.
Three of those quotes date from after the referendum (23/6/16). I doubt that people were influenced in their voting by those quotes.

Do we take that as agreement the quote that was before the vote was intended to influence things and relates to the heading?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 07:56 AM

I think that is a fair assumption McG but I somehow doubt we will get that agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:21 AM

" People can't have been influenced by these quotes in their referendum decisions"
THey refer to specific promises Nigel - you know that as you have described them as "aspirations"
Basically, Brexit was sold on the basis of stopping immigration - that's what won it, economic and social warnings were largely ignored
The overall promise was that by coming out, Britain would be better off
All this quibbling is basically about the fact that that was an "aspiration" and it is fairly obvious that Britain most certainly will not be better off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:28 AM

Do we take that as agreement the quote that was before the vote was intended to influence things and relates to the heading

Perhaps you need to read the article.
Under the Guardian's "Promise 1" It says "Brexit will be easy, and have no downsides".
The only quote given in that section which predates the referendum is from Michael Gove, and says: "The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want"

Clearly it does not promise what the guardian claims is being promised, and any other quotes in that section were made after the vote had taken place.

What next? Gove states "two plus two is four", and the Guardian claims that that is a promise that it won't rain at all this July?
There should be some connection between their claims, and the quotes that they claim backs them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 08:35 AM

Told you so... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 09:18 AM


Perhaps you need to read the article.
Under the Guardian's "Promise 1" It says "Brexit will be easy, and have no downsides".
The only quote given in that section which predates the referendum is from Michael Gove, and says: "The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want"

You should know me by now - I read everything in sight.   (I spent last night reading Google's terms and conditions on pne of their APIs - that's what happens when i run out of other thins to read.)

So yes, I has read the article before I posted. And my understanding of 'holding all the cards' is that a win will be easy. Isn't it yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 01:11 PM

"Brexit will be easy, and have no downsides".
If the "downsides" are not included in the campaigns people assume there are none - it's the same as promising there are none to exclude them
Such a nation-shattering decision has to be taken on the basis of all the evidence
As it is, the Government never carried out an EXIT STRATEGY STUDY before putting the onus on the people - it's already been stated by Tories for that insane fact
Brexit was never based on common sense or the future of Britain it was always an appeasement to the Little Britons
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 18 - 03:10 PM

I'm not a big fan of Robert Peston and I guess he has never heard of me but his ITV1 documentary from the north east about brexit tonight is worth a watch on catch up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 03:00 AM

Winston Churchill is often reported as saying "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" and the group on Newsnight last night added weight to that. I was particularly unimpressed by the woman who said the Irish Border did not cross her mind when she voted. Now that is understandable if you live in Hampshire or Northumberland, but this woman lived 30 miles from the border. How can it not cross your mind if you grew up during or just after the Troubles?

As it happens I don't remember if she voted leave or remain: it is the lack of thought that is disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 07:30 AM

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"
He (or his scriptwriters) forgot to add that the powers that be took full advantage of the general ignorance and disenchantment to turn Britain into the haven for the privileged that it has become
A post war Labour Government began to live up to the promise of "a land fit for heroes to live in" by introducing health care for all and social house=ing (bitterly opposed by the Tories) and it took the career politics of later Tory Governments and Labour ones indistinguishable from "their honourable opponents" to renege on that promise ans eventually produce Little England's 'Brexit'
Ken Loach's 'Spirit of '45' documentary is well worth looking out, if you haven't seen it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 08:20 AM

Interestingly it was the staunch Liberal David Lloyd George who used the phrase "land fit for heroes" at the end of the first world war.
Before WW1 he introduced old age pensions for those over 70 and later introduced National Insurance against unemployment and ill health.
During the 1918 General Election campaign, Lloyd George promised comprehensive reforms to deal with poor education, housing, health and transport… ‘a land fit for heroes’. Although re-elected he remained dependent upon the coalition with the Conservatives, who had little intention of delivering such radical reforms.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 08:30 AM

"land fit for heroes" at the end of the first world war."
I'm well aware of that - his crowd gave us the Depression and later appeasement to the Nazis and World War Two
Jim Caaarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:02 AM

"'Cos he took me out of the w'rkhouse
An' he gives me life that's free,
Five shillings a week for cheating death
Is what Lloyd George me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 09:08 AM

" his crowd gave us the Depression and later appeasement to the Nazis and World War Two"

Lloyd George was a liberal and formed a coalition government kicked out in 1922.

1922 Bonar Law         Conservative         Law ministry
1922
1923 Stanley Baldwin         First Baldwin ministry
1924 Ramsay MacDonald         Labour (minority)First MacDonald ministry
1924 Stanley Baldwin         Conservative         Second Baldwin ministry
1929 Ramsay MacDonald         Labour (minority)Second MacDonald ministry
1931 National         First National Government
1931 Second National Government
1935 Stanley Baldwin         Third National Government

1937 Neville Chamberlain         Fourth National Government
1939 Chamberlain war ministry
1940 Churchill(to sort everyone out!)

History does not support your statement. Liberals were bit players all the way through since the days of H. H. Asquith as PM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:23 AM

Well, here's one Tory who's got his head screwed on the right way round...

Lord Patten talking sense...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:30 AM

Lord Patten merely voicing opinions would be a more accurate phrasing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:43 AM

" his crowd gave us the Depression and later appeasement to the Nazis and World War Two""
I'm talking about the Governments that followed WW1 -
One assumes that a promise that involved the slaughter of a generation of young men should be treated as sacrosanct by all who followed - unless you accept that all politicians are liars (perish the thought!!)
Actualy, Lloyd George's silvery (as in eel) tongue gave us nearly a century of bloodshed in the Northern Irish counties by forcing through a Treaty at gunpoint
He didn't know my father, but my father knew Lloyd George
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 05:49 AM

"Lord Patten merely voicing opinions would be a more accurate phrasing."

Well, Teribus, you believed the opinions voiced by Bozo, Haddock-Face, and The Little Scottish Viper before the referendum - you know, "£350 million a week for the NHS", "Take Back Control", "Control Immigration" yadda yadda, which have proved to be without substance, so why would Patten's opinions, based on what has happened since the referendum, not be better-founded?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:18 AM

I do not believe Teribus has posted since October. A shame really. His well reasoned arguments ran rings around many of you. Perhaps the fact he made some look foolish was the reason we no longer have his valued contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:49 AM

You're fooling no-one, Tez.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 07:57 AM

"Actualy, Lloyd George's silvery (as in eel) tongue gave us nearly a century of bloodshed in the Northern Irish counties by forcing through a Treaty at gunpoint"

trying to summarise Irish Independence in one sentence gives rise to the absolute nonsense above. There were multiple levels of complexity involved and one of the main plenipotentiaries signatories to the original treaty negotiations, Collins, was ambushed and murdered by anti treaty forces during the ensuing civil war. This was fought over the refusal to recognise the retention of the 6 counties under UK rule and a refusal to accept dominion status, as exemplified by Canada and Australia.
De Valera himself acknowledged Collin's claim that the treaty would give "the freedom to achieve freedom".
It was also widely recognised that forcing 31 county independence would have led to sectarian warfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 03:23 PM

There speaks a man who knows his subject so well that he thinks there are 31 counties. I wonder which one he has chosen to exclude?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 03:44 AM

I spent Easter Saturday wirh ny sons and their wives, one of whom is from Mauritius. In the evening she gave us the Mauritian view of Brexit and it was about the most postive view I have heard in its way, namely that seen from the island Brexit is utterly irrelevant. If they go abroad to study it mainly the UK, Australia or Canada, except for medicine which is mainly India. Very many UK universities have a campus on the island and there is no very obvious reason why that should change.

So unless there is a significant change in costs - which is only partly due to exchange rates - she did not think Brexit would matter a jot either way to them. Thar all sounded plausible and I can see it applying to much of the world. So for this sector Brexit may well be "much ado anout nothing."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 04:45 AM

"trying to summarise Irish Independence in one sentence gives rise to the absolute nonsense above."
If you stopped behaving as if you were an old member of this site and that you knew everything about everything you would be aware that this fact has long been established as such long ago here, with documented evidence adn official statements
Rather than turning this to be about Irish independence, I suggest you trawl though the previous discussions amd make your arrogant =claims on the basis of having actually read something
The ame with your equally uninformed claims of the political uses the Famine.
We really have been there and one that - some of us have spent a lifetime's interest in it.
Collins said no such thing, by the way - the Treaty was as much an uncomfortable compromise for the Free Staters as itt was totally unacceptable for the Republicans
Try a book before you accuse somebody of "absolute nonsense" - it really does work wonders
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 05:07 AM

Collins said no such thing, by the way - the Treaty was as much an uncomfortable compromise for the Free Staters as itt was totally unacceptable for the Republicans

COLLINS: Now as one of the signatories of the document I naturally recommend its acceptance. I do not recommend it for more than it is. Equally I do not recommend it for less than it is. In my opinion it gives us freedom, not the ultimate freedom that all nations desire and develop to, but the freedom to achieve it.

    Regarding the Anglo-Irish Treaty during a parliamentary debate (Dáil Éireann - Volume T - 19 December, 1921 (DEBATE ON TREATY)

I think I would prefer to rely on the records rather than your continuous blustering.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 05:45 AM

By the way jimmie I posted on this site many years before you popped up as a johny come lately. But this means as much as interest in a subject automatically equating with knowledge of the same.
Totally unrelated facts, with no significance!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 06:02 AM

"I think I would prefer to rely on the records rather than your continuous blustering."
I do wish you's stop this Iains
That statement was a political one made for public consumption at the time when a decision that was to bring about a Civil War was pushed through
There are at least a dozen biographies of Collins and hundreds more on the issues of independence
All of them now fully accept that the Treaty was a forced compromise and all of them contain the information that Lloyd George forced through the Treaty at gunpoint, specifically stating that "if the Treaty was not accepted within three days he could not guarantee preventing an invasion by armed Unionist forces on Dublin"
Please don't treat me as if my hair was still wet from crossing over on the cattle boat.
I do know a little of this and don't have to rely on hastily grabbed cut-'n-pastes
My family was involved in both the War of Independence and the Civil War (in one case, in an official capacity, connected with Collins)
I now live in a part of Ireland that was steeped in these events - part of our collecting work involved recording reminiscences from people who were there at the time and they gave us first-hand accounts of what was happening.
Since the 150th anniversary of the Famine Ireland has been inundated with a veritable Tsunami of books on the period from 1850 to Independence
I must have attended dozens of lectures at out various history societies, as visitors, both before we moved here and through the twenty years we have now lived her
THere has just been published a massive history of The Irish Revolutionary War - a huge doorstep of a book, which covers this period in minute detail.
Please stop trying to force-feed me the official British view of Ireland, those days are over.
And please, please stop sliding back into your "talking down to" persona
In somody as devoid of knowledge and experience as you appear to be, it makes you look somewhat foolish - if not ridiculous
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 06:05 AM

"By the way jimmie"
Now you really have regressed to your old, defensive/aggressive self
Ah-well, too good to last, wasn't it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 06:41 AM

Jim, he is an 'old member of this site' - did you notice the 'old Jom' the twat dropped into one of his posts recently, 29 Mar 18 - 04:35 AM? He can't help himself.

Teribuses may change their names, but leopards don't change their spots.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 06:44 AM

Right Backy - I    noticed the similarities, I missed the bullshit skills - probably a smokescreen tactic
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 06:54 AM

Another thing is ignoring his own errors as in 31 counties. He'll be telling us that Cork is on the East coast soon.

Unless that is the one he neglected to include!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:05 AM

Well Jim if you restricted yourself to facts or a discussion of facts there would be no problem. But you insist on wild allegations and total untruths to enforce your point of view, and you do it constantly.
Just in your last couple of posts you amply demonstrate your embellishments.
You denied the quote on Collins.
It ia a matter of public record what was said.
You state there had been no famine is western europe for centuries.
Famines (including Europe) You even overlook the famine in Ireland in 1925.
https://ansionnachfionn.com/2014/10/28/the-irish-famine-of-1925/
"his crowd gave us the Depression and later appeasement to the Nazis and World War Two"
As I pointed out Lloyd george was a liberal. That party was not in charge during the depression or the years leading up to WW2
"Actualy, Lloyd George's silvery (as in eel) tongue gave us nearly a century of bloodshed in the Northern Irish counties by forcing through a Treaty at gunpoint"
The eventual treaty was a compromise, just like most political settlements. Also the final form of it was far ahead of what was proposed originally. As I previously said it is a complex subject and certainly does not lend itself to one sentence summaries.

You study your previous postings on any subject and it is the same woeful litany of constant exaggeration. Why are you so surprised some take issue with this fact. If you did not present your highly biased opinions as facts there would be no argument. You constantly say you have an interest in these subjects, with the implication you have studied them?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 07:27 AM

"Well Jim if you restricted yourself to facts or a discussion of facts there would be no problem."
I have done - documented facts
Yours is based on a political statement at a time when all sides were under pressure
I've replied to your other poits interminabley
Whatever the rights and wrongs of ny of them your behavior seems to have returned to brutish bullying lever
There is no need for that here and it shows a need to bulldozer your arguments through rather than argue them out
By the way - the compromise left Ireland with nearly a Civil War and nearly a century of inequality, establishment bigotry and bloodshed, quite possibly to return, thanks to Brexit - was that an acceptable alternative?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:33 AM

Incidentally - all the European famines on your list were caused by abnormal conditions (mainly wars) totally uncontrollable in the given circumstances
As I pointd out re Lloyd George - I was referring to British Politicians no Liberal Prime Ministers when I said "his crowd"
As the very wise Frank Hart once said at a talk he gave to middle-class folkies "The British have never understood Ireland - but the Irish understand Britain"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 04:00 PM

I do not believe famines are caused by anything other than abnormal conditions. They were hardly deliberate,although unintended consequences might have played a role. I think you underestimate the role of climate in famine and also up until probably the mid 18th century there was a lack of a marketing structure to mitigate famine. There are many studies suggesting volcanic activity, severe el nino events, and climate changes all contributed to famines.

As an example a paper on the impact of volcanic activity from ice core analysis and correlation with medieval documents.

http://web-static-aws.seas.harvard.edu/climate/seminars/pdfs/mccormick_07.pdf
and

Famine during the little ice age

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 03:51 AM

"I do not believe famines are caused by anything other than abnormal conditions"
Agree entirely, nobody suggested for one moment they were.
It's the question of how they are dealt with that surrounds the Irish Famine
When there was enough food available to feed the population four times over and it was not distributed among the starving can be described as remissable
When food gathered to feed the starving was sold to a starving people at market prices so as not to upset the markets (lassaire faire) can be described at horrifically predatory "the wealthy feeding off the dying, vulture-like".
When the sole charge of handling the famine and advising on its strategy (Sir Charles Trevelyan - a religious fanatic) described the Famine as "God's punishment for their evil ways"... well.... that's something far more sinister
Charles E. Trevelyan, who served under both Peel and Russell at the Treasury, and had prime responsibility for famine relief in Ireland, was clear about God's role: "The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated".
HERE
MORE DETAILED ACCOUNT HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 04:35 AM

At the risk of hair splitting, I would say famines and flooding and similar disasters have their origins in natural events (normally), but they are caused or prevented by our preparedness or lack of it beforehand, and our reactions to mitigate it or not afterwards.

Ie it is not something that just happens to us and we are mere passive victims. We play are major part via our actions at the local and government level.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 05:10 AM

"We play are major part via our actions at the local and government level."
Sorry D - while I agree with the cause of the Famine - the use of of a natural phenomenon can never be acceptable
How often have we argued about how Stalin handled the Ukrainian Famine ?
THere is doubt over whether his actions were deliberate, there is none about the Irish famine now.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 05:24 AM

Back to the subject matter, Brexit.

A thoughtful and somewhat alarming commentary from Polly Toynbee in todays Guardian.

Ultras are in fear

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 05:26 AM

For clarity by 'We'I meant humans, particularly our governing systems. Most disasters are at a scale at which the actions of the individual are negligable; dealing with it is necessarily a group response.

So the only responsibility on the individual for the lack of preparedness (if that is the cause) lies with electing or permitting a government which does not value being prepared. (A neat segue into Brexit there!)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:22 AM

Nice twist to the Brexit plot this morning
Russia is claiming the Britain's accusations against them regarding the Salisbury poisoning has been manufactured to take the public's mind off Brexit !
Anybody old enough to remember 'That Was the Week That Was'?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:31 AM

Ha! It appears that not all of the BrexShit Dumbfucks are on this thread (although, of course, some are). What a bloody Dickweasel...

Taking Are Cuntry Back!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 06:59 AM

The attached link is headlined "Cutting EU migration very likely to hit growth - official advisers"

Oh dear, oh dear just what the Brexiteers really wanted to hear.

Migration

Still we've got back control so we can continue to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:56 PM

Any good news about Brexit yet, time is running short now.

I have noticed over the past year or so there has been few, if any, attempts to refute the numerous links I have posted.

This actually concerns me, if the vocal people cannot produce a valid counter argument we may truly be going to hell in a hand cart.

Todays link has not elicited one single reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 05:01 PM

We are in a fairly quiet period as far as actual reportable progress is concerned; the next one, I think, will be when the Lords start voting on the Withdrawal Bill on 18th April.

But the trickle of bad news continues, like Japan's recent remarks. Like your links, that trickle does not get commented upon here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 05:24 AM

Easy really, force pensioners to work in the fields and other 'grotty' jobs for their pensions, and apply sanctions to those who refuse, or are taken ill in line with the way people with disabilities are treated by the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 06:49 AM

That would work SPB, old woman pick a thousand cabbages today and we will give you one to make some gruel!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 06:51 AM

A WHOLE cabbage? Luxury...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:30 AM

I have noticed over the past year or so there has been few, if any, attempts to refute the numerous links I have posted.

For every pro-remain article in the Guardian there are at least two pro-Brexit articles in the pro-Brexit press.
I do not just mindlessly post links to them all. That is not debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:30 AM

I have noticed over the past year or so there has been few, if any, attempts to refute the numerous links I have posted.

For every pro-remain article in the Guardian there are at least two pro-Brexit articles in the pro-Brexit press.
I do not just mindlessly post links to them all. That is not debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:40 AM

Surely just loan of a cabbage will do, don't want to raise expectations......

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 08:02 AM

I would suggest a brussel sprout would do but we are talking post-brexit here...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 08:54 AM

Trouble with the majority of the pro-brexit press is the bias based on the vested personal inrerests of the proprietors who are not in favour of regulation of media monopolies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:27 AM

That would work SPB, old woman pick a thousand cabbages today and we will give you one to make some gruel!!
Good Marxist principle that: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:37 AM

Nice one Nigel :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 09:39 AM

Nigel,

PS Have you (only you Nigel) got any of these positive stories about Brexit that are so profuse in the Newspapers ........... I seem to have missed them all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:07 AM

There is an interesting article concerning the effects of Brexit on The Rock Of Gibraltar in todays Guardian. Not an area I had thought to consider before. (I bet some claim they have)



Gibraltar

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:21 AM

I've said before that the good news about Brexit (apart from the fact that we are leaving the EU) will only become clear once we have left (and possibly some time after). The newspapers will give forecasts (either pessimistic or optimistic) depending on which you read. These forecasts are about as reliable as those made prior to the referendum.
At the moment there is no actual 'news', just suppositions. Even the 'exit fee' can be subject to negotiation.

A non-committal answer, as that's all that's available at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:44 AM

The truth is Nigel I have not, as yet, seen an optimistic report in any newspaper, not a single one. The pro-brexit reports I have read all tend to say that rough times are ahead but they will be balanced by our "getting back control" and even that seems unlikely. For instance the new contract for printing the new "Blue" British passports being awarded to an overseas company.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 10:55 AM

The newspapers will give forecasts (either pessimistic or optimistic)

That's the whole point. Where are the optimistic ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:53 AM

For instance the new contract for printing the new "Blue" British passports being awarded to an overseas company.
The new contract is currently 'on hold' pending review requested by De La Rue.

Also the firm which 'won' the contract is in the news today over vulnerabilities in ID cards it produced Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:56 AM

Here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
a little acorn to chew on.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-5577673/Vauxhalls-van-plant-Luton-substantial-production-boost.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 12:47 PM

I agree that is good news, if it safeguards the 14,000 jobs. Because of automation I am not sure if we will gain much financially, but avoiding the job loss is very worth while.


However, it is a somewhat mixed report. I draw your attention yo two paragraphs with it:

However, the news comes as PSA announced only a couple of weeks ago that it would close down 100 Vauxhall’s showrooms – nearly a third of the total 324.


The move put more than 3,800 jobs at risk.


So retaining the existing factory jobs: very good. Little proposed increase in jobs given, but perhaps some. Depends a lot on automation. Losing 3,800 showroom jobs: bad

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:44 PM

Perhaps you would have preferred a crab apple instead?
In the days of the internet why would you need 3,800 showroom jobs.
Do they spend all day polishing cars?

Automation and robotics will trash jobs wholesale (even so called professional jobs) This will occur with or without brexit. R U a luddite?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:48 PM

I simply pointed out the article is not wholly good news, for anyone who stops reading after the headline.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 03:12 PM

And....4300!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 03:34 PM

But I would say the bulk of the bad news within the article is more a function of progress than Brexit. The showroom closure is entirely unrelated to Brexit I would argue and a loss of 38 jobs per showroom is an exaggeration do you not think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 04:18 PM

I agree the 38 sounds high, but it comes from stats on the largest dealers, apparently, and I imagine if you remember many showrooms have associated service facilities maybe it is right. In any case as that is based on actual figures I would not overrule it based on just my opinion.

Reading through stuff on car sales over the last 12-15 months the relatively poor sales have been blamed in many things, one of which is consumer confidence over Brexit. That's not proven of course, and it might be completely unfounded.

I am not convinced car showrooms will be too affected by automation, though it will to some extent of course. But a car sale is a much more a matter of person-to-person persuasion: it is a different experience than picking an item out of a catalogue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 05:00 PM

Meanwhile, April 18th is looking as if it is the next significant date in the negotiations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 07:24 AM

There has to be the same type of border with the EU at every point of entry in the UK, otherwise it is discriminatory. That is all there is to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 07:41 AM

There has to be the same type of border with the EU at every point of entry in the UK, otherwise it is discriminatory. That is all there is to it.

WHY?

The EU does not have standard borders on all of its peripheries.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:38 AM

Borders in the sense of customs barriers, Nigel. If brexit is to go ahead there will have to be a fudge apropos of the Irish border with Northern Ireland otherwise we're in big trouble. And that is all there is to it, and it's quite a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:38 AM

Part of the EU is outside the Schengen area, part of the Schengen area includes countries not in the EU. Stringent border checks for travellers within the Schengen area essentially do not exist (apart from heightened checks diue to security fears. Checks when travlling in the EU from Scghenfgen areas to non Schengen areas and vice versa are more stringent.
This may well be discriminatory but that is what the various countries have signed up to.

Today, the Schengen Area encompasses most EU States, except for Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Ireland, Romania and the United Kingdom. However, Bulgaria and Romania are currently in the process of joining the Schengen Area. Of non-EU States, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein have joined the Schengen Area. The border-free Schengen Area guarantees free movement to more than 400 million EU citizens, as well as to many non-EU nationals, businessmen, tourists or other persons legally present on the EU territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:41 AM

The article I linked to makes plain that the the regulatory aspects of the border are a major concern. Tariffs seem to be less of an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 12:02 PM

We are talking about people having a different border according to where you live IN THE SAME COUNTRY. If one part of the UK has an open border, then all the UK is ENTITLED to an open border. If some bigots start throwing their toys out of their prams because they can't dictate who is entitle to freedom of movement and who can't then that's their problem.

The likelihood, however, is that the government will try to apply a postcode lottery to determine the type of border each person in the UK and coming into the UK will have. If they do, then those who voted for this incompetent government need to be personally held to account by those who are discriminated against.

I would be happy however for a tax applied to constituencies that voted leave to pay for the personal travel and shipments of goods between NI and the UK mainland, but they are probably to tight fisted tyo agrtee.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 12:16 PM


The article I linked to makes plain that the the regulatory aspects of the border are a major concern.

Not a concern for UK. The government is adamant we will not have border controls under any circumstances. Good luck to EU if they try it.

If some bigots start throwing their toys out of their prams because they can't dictate who is entitle to freedom of movement and who can't then that's their problem.

Freedom of movement is not an issue. EU citizens will continue to be free to cross any of our borders. It is only the rights they enjoy that may change.

The likelihood, however, is that the government will try to apply a postcode lottery to determine the type of border each person in the UK and coming into the UK will have. If they do, then those who voted for this incompetent government need to be personally held to account by those who are discriminated against.

There is no chance of any of that happening.
These are just made up problems to instil fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 01:10 PM

Do you remember Mrs May saying:
But it is not good enough to say, 'We won't introduce a hard border; if the EU forces Ireland to do it, that's down to them'. We chose to leave; we have a responsibility to help find a solution.

I submit that is exactly what you are saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 01:23 PM

It is what I am saying, and we have found a solution.

Hopefully there will be a free trade agreement anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 01:43 PM

It is what I am saying, and we have found a solution

It is in the nature of a negotiation that a solution needs to be agreed by both sides. It may get amended a bit in the process, but the end result is shared by both.

We have NOT found such a solution. And Teresa May was saying we have a responsibility to try to find one both sides can agree on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:02 PM

It is in the nature of a negotiation that a solution needs to be agreed by both sides. It may get amended a bit in the process, but the end result is shared by both.
We have NOT found such a solution. And Teresa May was saying we have a responsibility to try to find one both sides can agree on.

The point which needs to be made, yet again, is that negotiations have not yet been concluded.

All this discussion about "Post Brexit life in the UK" remains speculation at present. And anything which appears to have already been agreed is still open for negotiation if agreement can't be reached on other matters. It is the EU's insistence (written into their rules for dealing with UK withdrawal) that "Nothing can be agreed until everything is agreed"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:10 PM

No need to emphasise the word 'try' in my post, Nigel: I very consciously put it in. But there are other ways to interpret the 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' clause. You can reach a conditional agreement, which is what was done with the green/amber/white sections of the last published document. A strict interpretation of the 'nothing agreed'line is that those colours mean nothing - all are equally 'not agreed'. But any sensible interpretation is that they are agreed to by different extents, even though all subject to a final sign off.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:38 PM

that they are agreed to by different extents, even though all subject to a final sign off.

Exactly, there are proposals which look likely to be agreeable to both sides, but nothing is agreed. How you can have different 'extents' of an agreement (is it 'agreed' or not?)seems like a level of hair splitting too far.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:42 PM

The Independent's view on the impact of the latest US trade rules for a post-Brexit deal

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 04:29 PM

Here is an extract from the draft EU Withdrawal agreement that Davis and the EU presented recently;
"The colouring of the text corresponds to the following meanings: text in green is agreed at negotiators' level, and will only be subject to technical legal revisions in the coming weeks. For text in yellow, negotiators agreed on the policy objective. Drafting changes or clarifications are still
required. Text in white corresponds to text proposed by the Union on which discussions are ongoing."

You notice the UK and the EU both use the words 'agreed'and 'agreement' about the colouring? What significance to.you attach to the colouring?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 07:35 PM

"All this discussion about "Post Brexit life in the UK" remains speculation at present. And anything which appears to have already been agreed is still open for negotiation if agreement can't be reached on other matters."

And that is the most ridiculous thing about this complete fuck-up that you dozy bunch dropped us in to - you shit-for-brains cockwombles actually voted for nothing more than 'speculation'. You couldn't make that kind of stupidity up.

What a bunch of cocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 02:47 AM

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-deal-theresa-may-us-uk-eu-chlorine-chicken-food-safety-standards-poll-a8292496.html

This is an interesting one. Apparently 82% wanted to stop any US trade if it went against our current food standards. On a survey of 2000 people like this, you would typically have a margin of error of +/- 2%, but let's assume it is way out, and the margin is +/-20% (where possible!) That would still have 62% wanting no deal if the food standards were at risk.

I know Gove and co have said the standards won't be cut, but that's not my question. Nor is it whether chlorine washed chicken is safe or not.

It is whether the Brexiteers support "the will of the people" in this case as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 04:22 AM

From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 07:35 PM
"All this discussion about "Post Brexit life in the UK" remains speculation at present. And anything which appears to have already been agreed is still open for negotiation if agreement can't be reached on other matters."

And that is the most ridiculous thing about this complete fuck-up that you dozy bunch dropped us in to - you shit-for-brains cockwombles actually voted for nothing more than 'speculation'. You couldn't make that kind of stupidity up.

What a bunch of cocks.

You are entitled to your opinions, but so are others.
just posting lines of crude drivel does nothing to forward the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 04:31 AM

Well Nigel you are hardly forwarding the discussion yourself are you?

You may be pleased to read that Phil Hogan, Ireland's EU Commissioner will make a speech today in which he is expected to say that the UK will not change it's mind over Brexit although he will go on to say:

“One thing we have already learned from Brexit is that the UK does not have a better idea. It does not have a replacement for the union as a way to improve the life quality of its citizens, its businesses and its standing in the world,” says Hogan. The “stubborn facts” overshadow the rosy future painted by Brexiters."

A pretty damning indictment.

Phil Hogan

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 04:46 AM

Sanity prevails. Perhaps they realise without agreement both sides suffer.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/943347/Brexit-news-member-states-European-Commission-david-davis-liam-Fox-transition-period
and


ss.co.uk/news/uk/942984/jeremy-corbyn-labour-polls-latest-plunge-tories-lead

I luv Mondays! How about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 04:48 AM

This is an interesting one. Apparently 82% wanted to stop any US trade if it went against our current food standards. On a survey of 2000 people like this, you would typically have a margin of error of +/- 2%, but let's assume it is way out, and the margin is +/-20% (where possible!) That would still have 62% wanting no deal if the food standards were at risk.

I know Gove and co have said the standards won't be cut, but that's not my question. Nor is it whether chlorine washed chicken is safe or not.

It is whether the Brexiteers support "the will of the people" in this case as well?

"The will of the people" only gets expressed, rarely, in referendums. These have only occurred on matters of great importance constitutionally. It does not include opinion polls. If it did we would probably still have the death penalty on the statute books. Many laws get passed which are against the wishes of the majority, as expressed in opinion polls.

The 'will of the people' could just as easily be described as 'mob rule', except in very carefully considered situations.

So to answer the question, I do not support the will of the people unquestioningly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 04:58 AM

I do find it strange Iains how people can cherry pick only that which they wish to hear.

Jyrki Katainen states in his response:

"It is not business as usual but negotiations with Mr Fox, Mr Davis and Mr Johnson are going quite well. I do not say there is a positive atmosphere but there is no negative attitude."

Not such a rosy picture, better than nothing but not brilliant.

He goes on to say "The future trade agreement between the EU and the UK is going to be worse than the situation today but tricky to say how good it will be."

Not at all good news.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:06 AM

"EU Commissioner, Phil Hogan"
Even if The Guardian could be considered partisan (which it is not), the opinion of an EU Commissioner would hardly be an unbiased opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:10 AM

You can of course ignore if you wish Nigel, It seems to me that Breixteers are ignoring everything they don't like, which in turn is 99.9% of everything that is published.

Iains, your second link doesn't work, nor did copying and pasting it into the control bar.

However I seem to recall an argument put forward by your side that polls were totally unreliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:16 AM

here's Iain's link Express - Corbyn

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:19 AM

But Raggy you always take a partisan view. There are 2 sides to every story.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/942430/brexit-news-germany-job-losses-eu-uk-schengen-agreement-suspension
The reality is that without agreement the EU will experience many negatives as well. This view is usually buried by the mainstream media,
but it is a reality that will not go away.
Also the political map of eastern europe is changing. This is creating cracks that need plastering. The road to federalism is gaining potholes by the day. The situation in Catalonia is still a festering sore.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:26 AM

Very strange Express article is it not?. Purportedly about a Conservative lead in a poll (a poll which we have been told is unreliable) it spend most of it trying to raise the issue of alleged antisemitism.

Incidentally "Number Cruncher Politics interviewed 1,037 UK eligible voters online between March 27 and April 5."

Now it's a long time since I studied Statistics but even I recognise that this is hardly a representative sample.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:46 AM

You can of course ignore if you wish Nigel, It seems to me that Breixteers are ignoring everything they don't like, which in turn is 99.9% of everything that is published.

Only if you are a Guardian reader.
Most of the press is pro-Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:49 AM

I agree with much of what you wrote there, Nigel. (I take it as read that you also included elections as expressing the will of the people.)

The important distinction we both draw is the distinction between the will of the people which varies constantly day by the day and the measurement of it at specific points (referendums, elections).

But that simply reveals how unreliable the idea of the expressed will of the people is. Take the measurement a month earlier or later and the results will be different. Use all your techniques of manipulation and persuasion, like Cambridge Analytica and AggregateIQ, and "the will" can be changed at the time that matters - at least, that is the whole rationale of advertising. Which is another reason that a simple majority vote is a bad idea for referenda.


But that is only part of the subject. All parties use private pooling all the time to help formulate their policies, and those are also attempts to measure "the will of the people". So we get back to whether Liam Fox goes with the will of the people, as estimated imprecisely via all sorts of focus groups and polling, or just the will of Liam Fox. And that difficulty is at the heart of our political system.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:50 AM

Iains, that Germany and others countries may also suffer job losses gives me no solace at all, yet another example of bad news surrounding Brexit .......... any good news stories yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:57 AM

You can of course ignore if you wish Nigel, It seems to me that Breixteers are ignoring everything they don't like, which in turn is 99.9% of everything that is published.

Only if you are a Guardian reader.
Most of the press is pro-Brexit.

Only if you think the mainstream press is the entirety of things published. I am a firm believer, as you will know by now, in things like Hansard and the official documents issued by the UK and the EU.   The 99.9% is hyperbole, of course, and he should have restricted it to more solid news than opinion columns, but Raggy constantly asks for links to articles reporting good news from Brexit, and there have been very few posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:04 AM

, but Raggy constantly asks for links to articles reporting good news from Brexit, and there have been very few posted

For every anti-Brexit article that Rag posts, there are several pro-Brexit articles.
No-one else does what he does.
Linking to articles is not debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:17 AM

Can anyone provide links to articles containing good news then? Iains has managed a couple that may or may not be linked to brexit but, aside from those, the majority of predictions, even from pro-brexit press are negative. I am just looking for anything that will make us optimistic about the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:18 AM

"Iains, that Germany and others countries may also suffer job losses gives me no solace at all, yet another example of bad news surrounding Brexit."

intransigence knows no borders and takes no prisoners. The EU is finally being forced to acknowledge this fact.

The more sensible among us would say the EU is cutting off it's nose to spite it's face. Not a very intelligent negotiating tactic is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:22 AM

The more sensible among us would say the EU is cutting off it's nose to spite it's face.

Is that not also what the brexit vote did to the UK? The more sensible amongst us would say changing the EU from within would be the better option!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:31 AM

Can anyone provide links to articles containing good news then? Iains has managed a couple that may or may not be linked to brexit but, aside from those, the majority of predictions, even from pro-brexit press are negative. I am just looking for anything that will make us optimistic about the future.

I'm not sure that anything that we could link to would make you optimistic about Brexit. That is probably why you are in the Remain camp.

It will take time to see benefits from Brexit, but I am optimistic about our future. Any future benefits are yet to be seen, whereas the promised downsides to voting for Brexit, which we were told would be immediate, failed to occur. Perhaps the optimists have got it right this time?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:39 AM

The more sensible amongst us would say changing the EU from within would be the better option!
That may have been a better option, but it was not an option available to us. David Cameron tried, and was rebuffed by the EU.
Tony Blair gave up part of our rebate for the (broken) promise of a review of the CAP.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:39 AM

Is that not also what the brexit vote did to the UK? The more sensible amongst us would say changing the EU from within would be the better option!
The majority took the opposite view. Statistics would suggest the superior intelligence resides among the brexiteers. Terrible things facts!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:41 AM

I'm not sure that anything that we could link to would make you optimistic about Brexit.

That seems very much like you are saying that you cannot find anything. In which case, why did you vote for brexit?

I am optimistic about our future.

I know you are so please share what makes you optimistic so we can all feel more confident.

The two statements you have made seem to be at odds with each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:45 AM

Statistics would suggest the superior intelligence resides among the brexiteers.

Do they?

Terrible things facts!

They are indeed :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:08 AM

Nigel: I'm not sure that anything that we could link to would make you optimistic about Brexit.
Dave: That seems very much like you are saying that you cannot find anything. In which case, why did you vote for brexit?
Nigel: I am optimistic about our future.
Dave: I know you are so please share what makes you optimistic so we can all feel more confident.
The two statements you have made seem to be at odds with each other.
Nothing contradictory there at all. I stated that I don’t think I could link to that would make you optimistic.
I am optimistic because I believe that UK can do better when not hampered by membership of EU. However, I don’t think there is much chance of me converting you to optimism about Brexit, as you obviously heard all the arguments (from both sides) prior to the referendum.
The Brexit team did not need (nor could have) persuaded everyone that Brexit would be good for UK. It was sufficient to persuade enough to win the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:14 AM

"The Brexit team did not need (nor could have) persuaded everyone that Brexit would be good for UK. It was sufficient to persuade enough to win the referendum"

Surely the very reason we elect people to Government is so that they can ensure that the good of the country is paramount. If Brexit was, or is, not the best thing for the country why on earth did people campaign for it.

And now, having won the referendum how can those same people not tell us, the voters, the benefits of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:29 AM

Surely the very reason we elect people to Government is so that they can ensure that the good of the country is paramount

The good of our ruling elite in this case does not coincide with the good of the people.
Unil UKIP emerged and actually won an election, the ruling elite were never going to consider the legitimate concerns of the majority of the electorate on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:29 AM

I stated that I don’t think I could link to that would make you optimistic.

I am optimistic because I believe that UK can do better when not hampered by membership of EU.

However, I don’t think there is much chance of me converting you to optimism about Brexiy

I don't want you to convert me to anything. I just want something that will make me feel more optimistic about leaving the EU. Up to now there has been nothing at all that predicts that things will be better in any way. Surely it is not too much to ask why you believe the EU can do better. Is something giving you this belief or is it just blind faith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:33 AM

why you believe leaving the EU can do better

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:34 AM

Surely the very reason we elect people to Government is so that they can ensure that the good of the country is paramount. If Brexit was, or is, not the best thing for the country why on earth did people campaign for it.
It is/was open to debate whether Brexit would be best for the country, which is why you had people (including politicians) prepared to campaign on both sides of the argument.

And now, having won the referendum how can those same people not tell us, the voters, the benefits of it.
While the referendum has been won, Brexit has not yet been achieved. You will have to wait to see the benefits, and some of them will be intangibles, such as control over our own laws and borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:40 AM

I believe that UK can do better when not hampered by membership of EU
Oddly enough, I agree with that. But I also think the UK will not do as well when assisted by membership of the EU.   And I think the instances of the latter are far more numerous and beneficial than instances of the former.

Which is what all such legal agreements boil down to. You give up something in exchange for something you think is better. You give up some trade opportunities and other flexibility when you join the EU in expectation of greater benefits overall.

So it is perfectly fair and reasonable to ask what those benefits are and to want them to be in terms of financial and legal ramifications, with indications of uncertainities of course. As every business does when constructing its business plan for the next one, two or five years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:50 AM

But I also think the UK will not do as well when assisted by membership of the EU.
It looks as if you're agreeing with me more than you intended. I think you possibly meant to say "as well as when".

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:57 AM

I admit to getting into a bit of mess linguistically there by trying to match the sentence structure the original too closely!

Still, I hope the intention was clear. By being in the EU we get benefits. We got those in exchange for giving up some flexibility. When we leave, we regain that flexibility, but we also lose the benefits. The question is, which is greater? So it is reasonable to ask those to be spelt out in a similar way to a business plan that a bank would find appropriate. I don't think I would have much success going to a bank and asking for a business loan but refusing to indicate how I might fund the repayments because it's all in the future...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 08:34 AM

By being in the EU we get benefits. We got those in exchange for giving up some flexibility.
By giving up some flexibility, control of our fishing grounds, a large chunk of money . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:00 AM

Nigel, I live in a town that used to have a fishing fleet, the owners of the trawlers, without exception, have moved to fish out of Peterhead and Banff. The only boats in the town now catch Lobsters and Crabs or take fishing parties out. An occasional boat comes up from Devon to fish for Scallops.

I have just read the attached article for the Guardian which clearly states that "the distribution of national quotas is the responsibility of national government, not the EU."

Leaving the EU will not necessarily make the livelihoods on these fishermen/women any more secure.

Once you read past the journalists obvious dislike of Farage it does make interesting reading.

Fishing

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:14 AM

I have just read the attached article for the Guardian which clearly states that "the distribution of national quotas is the responsibility of national government, not the EU."
'Smoke and mirrors': The distribution of the quotas may be for the nation (UK) but the setting of the quotas is done by the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:18 AM

Why would UK want to start imposing quotas discriminating individual ports?
All our fisherfolk would benefit by removing competition depleting stocks in our waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:24 AM

Nigel, when our fishing grounds are limited by not being part of the EU regulations we will only be able, legally, to fish within our own fishing grounds.

From reading about this subject I found that most British trawlers fish outside those grounds at present, in grounds which belong to other nations.

We MAY be able to buy quotas from them ........ at a price.

Like you said smoke and mirrors and much disinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:30 AM

The John Lichfield article mentioned in the article Raggytash linked to is also worth a read. It identifies some of the misrepresentations and misunderstandings that are common when people who don't know a sector in any detail (like me with fishing!) start making general comments about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 10:27 AM

So these fishing rights, will these be paid by a tax levied only on Tory voters - why should the rest of the country pay for their stupidity?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 10:31 AM

Just to give a balanced view, here's another side of the debate: Fishing areas

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 10:33 AM

So these fishing rights, will these be paid by a tax levied only on Tory voters - why should the rest of the country pay for their stupidity?
Why on Tory voters? Do you believe that only Tories voted for Brexit?
There's plenty of 'stupidity' in the Labour party (as well)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 10:54 AM

You are entitled to your opinions, but so are others.

Yes, I am, and I haven't tried to stop you or anyone else having yours.

just posting lines of crude drivel does nothing to forward the argument.

And your pomposity does nothing to forward it either.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 10:59 AM

And what I posted is fact, not drivel. The BrexShitters voted for nothing more than a hope - no facts, no studies, no detail, just hope based on unjustifiable promises made by self-serving liars on behalf of the immensely-rich, tiny minority who do actually stand to gain from the impending disaster of BrexShit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:06 AM

Nigel, when our fishing grounds are limited by not being part of the EU regulations we will only be able, legally, to fish within our own fishing grounds.

From reading about this subject I found that most British trawlers fish outside those grounds at present, in grounds which belong to other nations.

We MAY be able to buy quotas from them ........ at a price.

Like you said smoke and mirrors and much disinformation.

"We will only be able, legally, to fish within our own fishing grounds"
But: "We may be able to buy quotas for other grounds"
Which is it?
What about the 'high seas' which are not the fishing zones of any country?
Our own fishing grounds will no longer be open to be fished by other countries (unless by agreement with UK), so this increases our available fish stocks for our own fishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:07 AM

"Most of the press is pro-Brexit."

Of course it is - it's owned by some of the people who stand to gain the most from it, the cabal of immensely-rich people who are desperate to avoid becoming subject to the new Tax Evasion/Avoidance regulations being brought in by the EU in 2019.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:09 AM

Now that last sentence is pure drivel. We know who you are taking lessons from!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:11 AM

"For fisheries this (Brexit) means that the UK will be able to develop new, national fisheries policies for the 200 nautical miles of waters that extend from the UK and are within its exclusive economic competence (EEZ)."

These rights are free. No payment to anyone.
We can also agree mutual fishing rights with other nations.
Again, no cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:16 AM

From Nigel's link;

This is therefore one of one of the few areas in the Brexit negotiations where the UK will genuinely has a strong hand.

Well, that's not an admission you hear every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:32 AM

Yes Nigel buy, we purchase from people with quotas to fish, the rights to those quotas. By the same token foreign vessels could purchase quotas from Britsh vessels to fish British waters.

I can guarantee you one thing, the trawler owners will take whichever option is more benefical to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:35 AM

Yes Nigel we could fish "the high seas" However there are issues which affect that, time, distance and danger immediately come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:36 AM

Oh ........ and cost !

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:37 AM

"Now that last sentence is pure drivel. We know who you are taking lessons from!

Care to back that nonsense up with evidence, Teribus?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:38 AM

Yes Nigel buy, we purchase from people with quotas to fish, the rights to those quotas. By the same token foreign vessels could purchase quotas from British vessels to fish British waters.

I can guarantee you one thing, the trawler owners will take whichever option is more beneficial to them.

I agree. So if we can buy fishing quotas to fish in the waters of other states (if we need to with our expanded waters) is this legal?
If so, it makes a nonsense of your statement: when our fishing grounds are limited by not being part of the EU regulations we will only be able, legally, to fish within our own fishing grounds

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:42 AM

OK Nigel I should have posted without buying quotas from foreign vessels which have them. That will no doubt add to the cost of fish on our plates. Somehow I have a feeling that that truth will be lost on Brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:44 AM

Yes Nigel we could fish "the high seas" However there are issues which affect that, time, distance and danger immediately come to mind.
So yet another correction to your claim: when our fishing grounds are limited by not being part of the EU regulations we will only be able, legally, to fish within our own fishing grounds

I hardly need to contradict you, you're doing so yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:57 AM

Perchance you are being deliberately obtuse.

Short of me writing a long and detailed evaluation of the issues surrounding the fishing industry perhaps I could ask you to trouble yourself by finding the information available yourself.

You really don't have to look that hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 12:25 PM

Many posts since I last asked. Nothing to give us a little optimism then? I guess those who are confident that brexit will be of such benefit are astutely ignoring the fact that their optimism seems misplaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 12:45 PM

Fishing on the high seas is, although not totally lawless, is subject to a mish mash of different regulatory organisations. There is a move for the UN to start a Conservation Treaty for the High Seas. This would be
a new international effort hoping to stem the tide of illegal and under-regulated fishing and otherwise protect the ocean from a range of threats, to benefit everyone.
To state that the UK can will only be able to legally fish within our own fishing grounds is simply not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:32 PM

I cannot help but detect a reluctance to discuss Brexit.

I do detect an attempt to "nit pick" on wording that in a normal conversation would be reasonable.

I could write a long treatise on the subject on fishing but I doubt if anyone would take the trouble to read it.

The information is out there for all the peruse, should they have the inclination.

The media as we all know (or should know) seeks headlines that are often misleading............

Or should I have typed commercial fishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:05 PM

You are the one that introduced fishing. Why bring it up if you wish to immediately censor the ensuing discussion? Presumably fishing in national waters is a part of the brexit discussion. Commercial fishing on the high seas is not. This is not nitpicking, it is clarifying your original somewhat misleading statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 08:04 PM

Without wishing to broaden the bloody thing out more than it needs, for a very long time I've had a particular view about fishing. To me, there are three overriding aspects. First, there must be international oversight of fishing that has the primary, non-political intention of preserving stocks that must be based on science. Second (do read on...), I think that any nation that is surrounded by ocean has the inalienable right to claim an area around their country as their exclusive fishing ground. I mean, if you have oil, gas, coal, timber or any other resource that is the upshot of your geography, well it's yours and yours alone, and I don't see why fishing should be any different. Every country is lucky in the resources it has in many different ways. I don't expect Madeira to be obliged to share its lucky avocados or the Dominican Republic to share its lucky bananas, so why should the UK or Iceland have to share its lucky fish resource? So I think that the UK, and every other maritime nation, should be able to draw a line half-way between it and the next-door nations and say, this is my fishing ground and you don't fish here unless you're OK with our navy sinking your boats, even if you're Russia or Japan. Of course, there are tiny islands in vast oceans that could claim millions of square miles on that basis and that would need to be sensibly negotiated, and there's the matter of breeding grounds that would complicate simplistic territorial claims, which is my third point. Of all policies that need world-wide wisdom in order for it to to operate in the interests of every nation, it's fishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:25 AM

Just for the record Iains I did not introduce fishing into the discussion that was Nigel:


"Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 08:34 AM

By being in the EU we get benefits. We got those in exchange for giving up some flexibility.
By giving up some flexibility, control of our fishing grounds, a large chunk of money . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:13 AM

The latest wheeze from breixteers is to suggest a museum of soverignity "to collate an academic trove of artefacts, papers and books chronicling not just Brexit, but also the decades of often fringe Eurosceptic activism that preceded it"

Marvellous eh!



Brexit Museum

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:15 AM

Spelling obviously not checked before posting ...... Oops

Sovereignty!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:59 PM

EU to insist on UK maintaining environmental standards (or at least attempt to)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:11 PM

Maybe they should sort out existing members unable to maintain environmental regulations before they try to regulate soon to be exmembers.

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/germany-leading-breaker-eu-rules-883837

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 01:51 AM

I am sure you understand why those two things are not comparable, Iains. But to spell it out, it is about what is controllable by law, not how effectively it is controlled.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 03:03 AM

Bit of a mixed report here by the CBI.

One snippet reads

The CBI study, compiled over a six-month period, says Brexit presents opportunities for rule changes in sectors such as agriculture, shipping and tourism that could benefit the British economy and consumers.

However, the report adds that these opportunities for divergence are vastly outweighed by the costs of deviating from rules necessary to ensure smooth access to the EU, the UK's largest trading partner.

However, Richard Tice, co-chair of Leave Means Leave, said: "This report from the CBI protects the vested interests of global multi-nationals at the expense of the approximately 90% of the UK economy that does not export to the EU.

Does he not understand "the EU, the UK's largest trading partner." or is he just looking after the interests of the part of the economy that does not export?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 03:51 AM

Yet another adverse effect of Brexit has been reported today in the number of high street retailers which have closed.

"A net 1,700 chain shops closed their doors in 2017, according to analysis of the UK’s top 500 towns compiled by the Local Data Company (LDC) for PricewaterhouseCoopers. An average of 11 stores a day opened, while 16 a day closed. The data does not include independent shops.

Fashion and footwear stores were the hardest hit in 2017, according to LDC, as shoppers’ freedom to spend on non-essentials was diminished by rising food price inflation, partly fuelled by the fall in the value of the pound after the vote for Brexit in 2016."

Not the only effect but an effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 03:56 AM

However, Richard Tice, co-chair of Leave Means Leave, said: "This report from the CBI protects the vested interests of global multi-nationals at the expense of the approximately 90% of the UK economy that does not export to the EU.

Does he not understand "the EU, the UK's largest trading partner." or is he just looking after the interests of the part of the economy that does not export?
I imagine he fully understands the term. "Largest trading partner" is the country (or bloc) with which we do the most trade. This includes both buying & selling. With the EU we buy more from them than we sell to them. As such it is in the interests of the EU not to hinder international trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:21 AM

"A net 1,700 chain shops closed their doors in 2017, according to analysis of the UK’s top 500 towns compiled by the Local Data Company (LDC) for PricewaterhouseCoopers. An average of 11 stores a day opened, while 16 a day closed. The data does not include independent shops.

Fashion and footwear stores were the hardest hit in 2017, according to LDC, as shoppers’ freedom to spend on non-essentials was diminished by rising food price inflation, partly fuelled by the fall in the value of the pound after the vote for Brexit in 2016."

Of course to also introduce the growth of on line shopping and the meteoric rise of outlets such as Amazon have zero impact on high street closures. Also the argument the pound fell as a result of brexit or as a result of a long anticipated correction of the market also impacts the above discussion. Some would argue market correction was the driver. If this was the case the argument presented further fails.

Presenting the information quoted, while omitting facts of equal relevance, is merely a device to mislead the unwary.

Shame on you!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:24 AM

Sorry Nigel, I do not understand your point. The EU is the UK's biggest trading partner yet Richard Tice says it is at the expense of those who do not export. Seems to be a bit of obfuscation going on here. On the one hand talking about the biggest trading partner and on the other, just exports to the EU. This type of molding the statistics to fit an argument does not help anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:25 AM

Iains, which bit of "Not the only effect but an effect" did you not comprehend?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:39 AM

Dave:
Richard Tice was just responding to the CBI's claim. It was them who seemed to believe that "largest trading partner" was to do with sales alone: However, the report adds that these opportunities for divergence are vastly outweighed by the costs of deviating from rules necessary to ensure smooth access to the EU, the UK's largest trading partner.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:17 AM

Rag,
Yet another adverse effect of Brexit has been reported today in the number of high street retailers which have closed.

Who told you it was because of Brexit Rag?
It could be some other factor. Some people now buy things on line instead of going to the shops. Heard of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:24 AM

Yes, I know that Nigel. CBI were talking about exports/sales, Richard Tice was talking about the part of the economy that does not export. Apples and Oranges. Why try to compare the two?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:21 AM

Iains, which bit of "Not the only effect but an effect" did you not comprehend?
I think he was pointing out that Brexit was not the sole cause, of the effect.
Saying "Not the only effect but an effect" still suggests that all the shop closures were caused by Brexit, and that Brexit has caused other effects as well. It does not clarify that Brexit was not thye sole cause of the closures.

"Cause and effect" are often linked, but are not interchangeable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:40 AM

I think we have a different language syndrome, Nigel. I fully understand that Raggy meant that brexit was a partial cause of shop closures. I cannot see how anyone can read it any other way but I will put that down to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:46 AM

The article makes it quite clear, well it does to you and I Dave, that the fall of the pound after Brexit was ONE of the factors involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:56 AM

4400! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:34 AM

causality.

    the relationship between cause and effect.

Obviously a required field of study for some!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:49 AM

Causality?

I thought it was a BBC drama on Saturday nights.

Joking aside, it is patently obvious that both Raggy and the article are saying that brexit is PART of the cause. I thought that was clear but maybe comprehension should also be a required field?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 08:17 AM

Hey ho!
Below we have analysis of the high street closures. Rather makes rubbish of the claimed brexit effect!

and it is in the daily wail as well.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5602733/High-Street-losing-16-shops-day-thanks-rising-costs.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 08:33 AM

The article makes it quite clear, well it does to you and I Dave, that the fall of the pound after Brexit was ONE of the factors involved.
The article may make it clear. Your additions merely muddy the waters.
And "the fall of the pound after Brexit" is not the same as "the fall of the pound caused by Brexit".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 09:22 AM

"And "the fall of the pound after Brexit" is not the same as "the fall of the pound caused by Brexit".

A delighful clarification!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 09:29 AM

I think it is as well to understand that peoples understanding of what is being said varies. While I fully understand what Raggy is on about and vice-versa I sometimes have problems with what Iains and Nigel actually mean. I don't believe either is right or wrong, just different, but once someone explains, in depth, what was meant, why keep going on about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 09:53 AM

Quite True Iains, the Mail piece does not mention the pound falling, (we can guess at why that is) but it does say "The UK's high streets are continuing to suffer with 16 shops closing every day thanks to a combination of rising prices and more customers buying on line"

In truth it does not mention Brexit or the pound in any way, how very strange. I would not refer to the article as analysis by the way, gilding the lily somewhat to do so.

Rising prices eh, I wonder what may have caused that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 09:54 AM

but once someone explains, in depth, what was meant, why keep going on about it?
Because some peoples 'clarifications' do nothing to clarify any link between what was said and what was meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:00 AM

And "the fall of the pound after Brexit" is not the same as "the fall of the pound caused by Brexit". 

A delighful clarification!

True, they are not the same. But they are not independent either.   We have had a good series of major announcements now and they are all surrounded by reports of 'pound rises/falls in expection of/following a Brexit announcement."

It should be no surprise to anyone that votes and announcements have effects. Analysing what proportions due to what is more difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:11 AM

Fair enough, Nigel. I will just put it down to that different language thing. You say tomato and I say either or whatever it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:27 AM

Rising prices eh, I wonder what may have caused that.

Yes. Prices have never risen before 2016 have they!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:28 AM

“Words... They're innocent, neutral, precise, standing for this, describing that, meaning the other, so if you look after them you can build bridges across incomprehension and chaos. But when they get their corners knocked off, they're no good any more... I don't think writers are sacred, but words are. They deserve respect. If you get the right ones in the right order, you can nudge the world a little or make a poem which children will speak for you when you're dead.”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:32 AM

Nice, Iains. Is it an original or someone else? Wise words either way. No pun intended :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:46 AM

A quick google attributes the quote about words to Tom Stoppard.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 11:01 AM

The playwright who was married to well known TV doctor Miriam Stoppard? Well I never. Not a name i have heard in some years. He went off with Felicity Kendall who I also remember fondly for some reason :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 01:20 PM

One of my favourite playwrights Tom Stoppard is - I have seen several of his plays.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 01:41 PM

There was a definite something about Felicity Kendall, especially in dungarees, in the Good Life.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:27 PM

Make your mind up what it was, Iains. Get to the bottom of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:49 PM

She wasn't wearing jeans or dungarees when I imagined her ......

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 02:15 AM

I would put this as positive news for Brexit except that like the shop discussions we can't isolate how much it is Brexit and how much is other factors.

And I would also recognise many would not think it good news at all.

South east housing market under pressure

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 03:49 AM

Live animal export ban

Would this come under the heading of 'good news' which some posters keep asking for?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 03:59 AM

Yes, that is good news, Nigel. Thank you. The fly in the ointment is Gove the viper. I would not believe anything he says but, hopefully, someone with more integrity will run with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:29 AM

Allow me to muddy the waters if I may, one of the suggestions is that journey times for animals is limited to 8 hours and on the surface that seem reasonable. So far, so good.

Now, I am not a horse racing fan, nor even a gambler, but if the horses are limited to 8 hours transport what will be the effect on horse-racing. The little I know about horse-racing tells me that some race meeting, such as Cheltenham, have many overseas horses competing.

What will happen to exporting animals for breeding? Not quite as straight forward as it first appears.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 04:41 AM

I think it applies to food animals, Raggy, and I would imagine that allowance will be made for race horses. I think, in general, they are pretty well taken care of and do not suffer the stresses of the type the ban is aimed at eliminating.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 05:04 AM

To quote the first line of the linked article (from the Guardian):
The UK could impose a ban on the export of live animals for slaughter after Brexit, according to Michael Gove.

Does that make it any clearer?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 05:17 AM

True enough Nigel but the report does go on to say:

“It’s unacceptable and completely unnecessary that live animals are exported and transported over long distances for slaughter OR FURTHER FATTENING,” he said. “We would like to see live exports from the UK banned and a maximum journey time of eight hours introduced. This is a chance to end the practice for good and we look forward to contributing to the review.” (my capitals)

So it's not just for slaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 06:01 AM

Even the "for further fattening" would not include racehorses being sent to race, or animals being sent for breeding (except by an exceptional reading of fattening).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 06:07 AM

I was wondering whether this could be "the thin end of the wedge" and whether animal rights organisations could/will use it to further their objectives.

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 06:34 AM

A bit of light relief for those fed up of picking holes in other peoples posts

See 20 years of FAKE NEWS about EU by UK press.

Some other good ones on that site if you fancy a bit of a laugh and some truthful analysis :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 18 - 10:36 AM

The Independent,
"(Lloyd Blankfein)The long-serving Goldman boss said he was wrong about the immediate of effects of the Brexit vote on the economy.
“Cassandra hasn’t been proved right,” he said.
“Some people would say, ‘hasn’t been proved right, yet’.”
He added: “I’m at least wrong in that I thought there would have been a worse outcome by now.”
The UK economy had “surprised on the upside”, he said, referring to better-than-expected economic data that has come since the June 2016 referendum."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 06:07 PM

The great european game of happy families is encountering a few hiccups.

https://www.rt.com/news/424222-barcelona-protest-independence-leaders/

“Europe has achieved peaceful political union for the first time ever: They're using this unprecedented state of affairs to harmonize the curvature of bananas.”
? Charles Stross, Accelerando

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:06 AM

That's an interesting one, Iains, because it is about the sovereignty of the member countries of the EU. And for many leave supporters they thought the EU had too much sovereignty so it seems odd they think it should have more for Spain.

And the good old bendy banana misrepresentation again. Ah, nostalgia!

====
There was supposed to be an important "stock taking" meeting in Brussels today, but has been postponed for a week, I understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:12 AM

I know that many people who voted remain do not think we should have another referendum. However given that we all have much more information today than we did in June 2016 another vote may be the way forward. An article out today argues this point.


Brexit Bad News

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:40 AM

Good news today on currency and the economy.

Reuters,
"Business NewsApril 17, 2018 / 1:50 AM / Updated 8 hours ago
British pound hits post-Brexit referendum high"
TOKYO (Reuters) - The British pound rose to $1.4355 on Tuesday, hitting its highest level since the Brexit referendum in June 2016, supported by hopes of a better Brexit deal and expectations of a central bank rate hike. "

"Foreign Exchange Analysis April 17, 2018 / 7:46 AM / Updated 29 minutes ago
Sterling climbs to highest since Brexit vote in June 2016
LONDON (Reuters) - Sterling on Tuesday soared to its highest level since Britain’s vote to leave the European Union in June 2016, boosted by expectations that strong earnings data will seal the deal for a Bank of England interest rate hike and broad dollar weakness."

"With worries about a disorderly exit from the EU next year pushed into the background, and seasonal inflows from foreign companies sending dividend payments to British shareholders, investors have added to their pound positions."

"The pound gained 0.2 percent to $1.4371, beating a previous post-Brexit-vote high set in January."

"Workers’ total earnings are expected to rise by an annual 3 percent in the three months to February, according to a Reuters poll of economists. "


"Inflation figures due Wednesday have the potential to boost sterling further.
Against the euro, sterling traded flat at 86.35 pence per euro and close to 11-month highs. "

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-sterling-markets/sterling-climbs-to-highest-since-brexit-vote-in-june-2016-idUKKBN1HO0OE

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:51 AM

"With worries about a disorderly exit from the EU next year pushed into the background"

I think it is a bit much to distract people about brexit by embarking on a war with Russia but I suppose that is an extremist view.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 05:37 AM

It is the British military Industrial complex girding it's loins for the task ahead and impacting directly the value of the pound.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 06:43 AM

What war with Russia Dave?
That is a false claim rather than an extreme one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 07:00 AM

First up

Plenty more where that came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 07:21 AM

Nothing about a war there.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 07:24 AM

Is it your case that the nerve agent incident in Salisbury and the poison gas attack in Syria were just ruses to distract from Brexit?

Please clarify what exactly you are suggesting Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 07:43 AM

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 07:59 AM

Fallout from Brexit seems to be an attempt to either deport or deprive the rights of 'The Windrush' immigrants who came to Britain 60 years ago
What a shitty racist place Britain is becoming
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 08:36 AM

In fairness - this action was taken directly because of much earlier legislation passed by Theresa May - who has now retreated smeared with egg from her face to her Gucci shoes
Brexit will only make it worse when the Brexiteers start to demand that the Government lives up to Farfge's promises to rid Britain of foreigners
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 11:21 AM

Farfge's promises to rid Britain of foreigners

Farage has never promised any such thing.
He wants immigration to continue but more controlled.
He has not suggested any but illegal immigrants should be removed.

I do not defend him, just challenging another of your lies Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 12:07 PM

Who let that "I'm not a" Ukip supporter in here ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 12:51 PM

I do not support him, just challenging another of your lies Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 01:18 PM

Ignore the hoops. Don't feed the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 01:39 PM

Not feeding him - just taunting him Baccy - a girl's got to have a bit of fun now and then!
Thanks for your concern though
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 01:44 PM

Jim, your claim about Farage was a lie.
Pointing that out does not make me a supporter of Farage, just an opponent of lying.

Good news on the economy today though.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 03:09 PM

Pound is up, Brexit is coming. Life is good!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 03:31 PM

Yes Iains the pound has "soared" by nought point two percent!!!

Wow, open the champagne!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 03:36 PM

Dunno, Raggytash, I've just bought some euros today!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 07:43 PM

Question for you Iains, if you consider a 0.2% rise in the value of the pound to be "soaring" what do you consider a full 1.0% fall.

Would that be a catastrophe? Then if that is a catastrophe just how would you rate the drop of about 17 full cents just after the Brexit vote?

PS Nigel before you wade in and say the pound was overvalued prior to Brexit, currencies do NOT trade above their value for 2 years (or there abouts)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 04:10 AM

It was the Reuters economists who used the "s" word.
Take it up with them.

"LONDON (Reuters) - Sterling on Tuesday soared to its highest level since Britain’s vote to leave the European Union in June 2016, boosted by expectations that strong earnings data will seal the deal for a Bank of England interest rate hike and broad dollar weakness." "

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 04:10 AM

I think I might be more concerned about the antics of Deutsche Bank.
THE EUROPEAN Central Bank has moved first to protect global financial markets from the potential chaos caused by Deutsche Bank winding down the trading of $1.1 trillion assets on its balance sheet.

If you follow the pound euro exchange rate since it's inception it has been up and down like a whore's drawers. What has been - will be!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 06:16 AM

More good news :-(

Each Brexit scenario will leave Britain worse off

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 06:22 AM

From: Raggytash -
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 07:43 PM
.
.
PS Nigel before you wade in and say the pound was overvalued prior to Brexit, currencies do NOT trade above their value for 2 years (or there abouts)

Another failure to understand either finance, or the English language.

The pound was 'overvalued'. That means the its 'value' was being incorrectly set. It was thus not trading 'above' its value.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 06:33 AM

luvvin it!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5627745/Junker-row-pals-appointment-EU-position.html

How sad, but a grand day for democracy!


https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0417/955020-macron_eu_vision/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 07:26 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:12 AM
I know that many people who voted remain do not think we should have another referendum. However given that we all have much more information today than we did in June 2016 another vote may be the way forward. An article out today argues this point.
Brexit Bad News

You really need to distinguish between 'news' and 'opinion'.
The 'article' you link to was written by "Hugo Dixon, chairman and editor-in-chief of InFacts, a founding member of the People’s Vote campaign"
Even the Guardian heads it as "Brexit / opinion"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 07:46 AM

Opinion = Oh, I think it will all turn out for the best when we leave.

News = Economic analysis reveals that all leave scenarios will leave Britain worse off.

That sort of thing, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 08:10 AM

The EU has just raised the 'Windrush' fiasco as a possible indication of how the citizens of European countries will be treated when (or hopefully "if") Britain leaves
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 08:33 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 07:46 AM
Opinion = Oh, I think it will all turn out for the best when we leave.
News = Economic analysis reveals that all leave scenarios will leave Britain worse off.
That sort of thing, Nigel?

That sort of thing, yes. Make it clear what is news, and what is opinion.

If you can find something that gives your comment "Economic analysis reveals that all leave scenarios will leave Britain worse off" as news based on reliable science, let me know. Otherwise I'll just assume it's more 'Project Fear' and just the opinion of one man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 08:49 AM

We are just retaining control of our borders.After all we were never a part of the Schengen zone. And even inside that they have allowed so much uncontrolled immigration they have had to dismantle the schengen agreement in places to adequately monitor for terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 12:36 PM

From the BBC live reporting on Parliament:

=====
17:31
BREAKING Government defeated on continued EU-UK customs union
EU Withdrawal Bill

House of Lords

Parliament

Peers vote 348 to 225 to back an amendment in the name of crossbencher, Lord Kerr, with cross-party support - meaning a defeat for the government.

The amendment requires the government to report to Parliament by 31 October 2018 on the steps it has taken to negotiate continued participation in a UK-EU customs union before the European Communities Act 1972 can be repealed.

====

In truth, this seems to be something the government thinks it can live with via a simple technicality. It remains to see what will happen when it gets back to the commons.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 01:12 PM

But the pound is still off to the stratosphere!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 01:40 PM

Y'pays y'money and takes y'choice
Pound plummets

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 01:43 PM

Try again: Pound plummets

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 02:06 PM

I didn't know you needed spoon feeding, Nigel. It is real news in a real newspaper. Just look at my posting a little earlier for the linK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 02:16 PM

news based on reliable science

What aspects of 'science' are you seeking? Nigel? Repeatability? Comparison with a control group? Blind testing?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 02:27 PM

The Lords are unelected. Unelected appears opposing the people.
The Lib Dems, the only pro Remain party, were wiped out in the election but use their many peers to exert influence they have no mandate for.

BBC, "And Lord Forsyth went further, suggesting that it was a plot by "Remainers in this House, who are the majority, who refuse to accept the verdict of the British people - and I believe they are playing with fire".
"I say to colleagues in this House, 'Have a care to what we are doing,'" he said. "We are an unelected house, and this amendment [is] part of a campaign which is putting peers against the people." "

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 02:56 PM

The Lords are an integral part of Parliament. Vote for supremacy of Parliament over Brussels and that's what you get: all of Parliament not just the bits you like.

By and large, reform of the House of Lords is something "the left" argue for, and "the right" argue against. I am fairly confident most Rees Mogg pronouncements on the Lords will be in support of it as is, unless his recent idea to neuter it by making 200 new Lords to force his personal view of Brexit through.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 03:36 PM

Remember what might have happened when Guy Fawkes and his motley crew got hacked off. After all, according to recent reports, if you use a crossbow Mr Plod stays at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 03:39 PM

I know I shouldn't ask, but WTF?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 04:59 PM

I didn't know you needed spoon feeding, Nigel. It is real news in a real newspaper. Just look at my posting a little earlier for the linK.

Yes, that was what I was commenting on. The opinion of one man, (Jonathan Portes) commissioned by a 'thinktank' (Global Future) and published in The Guardian on its News pages as if it has been a considered production by 'Global Future'. At least, that is how I would read the headline they gave it:

Each Brexit scenario will leave Britain worse off, study finds
Global Future finds Theresa May’s preferred bespoke deal would cost £615m a week

Compare that with the paragraphs describing exactly what they are basing their headlines on:
Each of the government’s four Brexit scenarios, including a bespoke deal, would leave Britain poorer and cost the taxpayer hundreds of millions of pounds each week, analysis has shown.
The study for the thinktank Global Future by Jonathan Portes, a professor of economics and public policy at King’s College, London, found that a bespoke deal, the government’s preferred option, would have a net negative fiscal impact of about £40bn a year.

It appears that 'Project Fear' has not yet given up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 05:23 PM

Nigel, you asked if it was news. It was. The news was that a think tank considered that every scenario would leave Britain worse off. Whether you chose to believe the think tank is irrelevant. The news is that was their findings.

Your opinion that it will all turn out for the best did not make the news and is at odds with the think tank.

It was you who was trying to school someone in differentiating between news and opinion. I was merely clarifying that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:31 AM

Nigel, you asked if it was news. It was. The news was that a think tank considered that every scenario would leave Britain worse off. Whether you chose to believe the think tank is irrelevant. The news is that was their findings

From the link you posted, the think tank considered nothing. They merely reported the thoughts of a lone professor. Passing the thoughts of that professor through a think tank, and then through a newspaper, does not mean there is any reason to give those thoughts any more credence than when they were the thoughts of a single professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:39 AM

BUT IT WAS STILL NEWS!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:51 AM

DMcG, there is a majority for Remain in both Commons and Lords.
They are the ruling elite who put their own interests above those of the people they supposedly represent.

The difference is that MPs need to be re elected but the Lords never have to answer to the people.

The in-elected Lords have never been allowed to over-rule the elected Commons.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 04:43 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:39 AM

BUT IT WAS STILL NEWS!!!

It was not the news that you claimed it to be: Whether you chose to believe the think tank is irrelevant. The news is that was their findings

Whether it was news at all is also debatable. The 'think tank' may merely have requested a report from a professor who they believed would back up their own pre-conceptions.
That may just be my assumption, but it was certainly NOT the think tank's findings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 05:09 AM

BUT IT WAS STILL NEWS!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 05:33 AM


The in-elected Lords have never been allowed to over-rule the elected Commons

Depends how you think of it. The Lords is a revising chamber and it is absolutely the norm and their role to suggest changes to bills. If the commons accept the change then it is little more than linguistic juggling whether the change is over ruling the commons original proposal and the commons is conceding or the commons is always the House that agrees the final form of the bill.

Which will be exactly the same this tim3 however it ends up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 06:14 AM

"allowed to over-rule t"
Isn't it strange how with some people, the democracy of the Lords is only questioned when they take the "wrong" decision ?
Great decision
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 07:29 AM

Isn't it strange how with some people, the democracy of the Lords is only questioned when they take the "wrong" decision ?

I have not come across such a person.
For myself I think they serve a useful function, but must never be allowed to circumvent the will of the Commons.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 07:35 AM

I agree with all the arguments that have been put forward for putting the question to the country once the implications of any deal are known - except that I don't think that referendums are ever a good idea anyway. The country is - as it should be - ruled by parliament and the Lords get to have a say but can't ultimately scupper the will of the Commons. I like that notion in principle but there are too many peers, too many old peers, not enough women in the Lords and I think that all peers should be appointed to reflect what this country would regard as accomplishment at the highest level in all walks of life and should reflect the whole political spectrum. Definitely NOT elected. One election for one house every few years is enough for the country. An election for the Lords would attract a low turnout and that would be self-defeating as far as any democratic apiration for an elected Lords was concerned.

One thing's for sure: the notion suggested here that it's only the remainers in parliament who form a "ruling elite" of some kind who act only in their own interests is utterly cockeyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 07:49 AM

I was signatory eight hundred and something of Charter88, which included reform of the House of Lords amongst its objectives, so I have questioned the structure since at least 1988 as a matter of record. Of course saying you want to change something and agreeing what you want to change it to are very different things (as everyone on this thread should appreciate!)

Nevertheless what it is doing now is precisely in line with its remit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 08:11 AM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 08:35 AM

Yes it is or it could not do it.
The argument is that they are trying to subvert the will of the people and the Commons by this move.

This contentious issue should be left to elected politicians who are directly answerable to the people, unlike their Lordships and Ladyships.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 08:49 AM

The matter of a customs union was never put to the people. It's perfectly possible to be out of the EU yet be in a customs union with the EU. The amendment was about keeping the concept of a customs union on the table, not reversing the referendum result. I suppose the Mail would love to be calling the Lords the enemies of the people. Trouble is, neither the Mail nor the other grumblers about the Lords amendment have asked the people either. What is happening is just normal procedure and no-one is subverting anything. That's my view and I won't enter into silliness with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 08:49 AM

Senior MPs to force a vote on customs union

I wonder where your insistence that elected MPs should decide will be if this (non binding) vote does support a customs union.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 09:00 AM

The matter of a customs union was never put to the people. It's perfectly possible to be out of the EU yet be in a customs union with the EU. The amendment was about keeping the concept of a customs union on the table,

The concept of a customs union does appear to still be on the table.
Theresa May has pledged to leave the current customs union after Brexit.

The second quote is taken from DMcG's link (to the BBC)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 09:35 AM

On the other hand we are categorically leaving the customs union.

Who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 10:04 AM

So May is going to waste taxpayers money to pay leeches in the civil service to set up a new customs unions which will be identical to the current customs union to ensure that there is no impact on consumers whatsoever and the same for businesses that trading with the EU one second after we leave the customs union???????????? Who are the imbeciles who voted for this government????? How are we going to force the EU to obey .... Trident????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 10:24 AM

So May is going to waste taxpayers money to pay leeches in the civil service to set up a new customs unions which will be identical to the current customs union to ensure that there is no impact on consumers whatsoever and the same for businesses that trading with the EU one second after we leave the customs union
Whoever told you that?
Or is it just your own perverse understanding of what is happening?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 10:42 AM

The matter of a customs union was never put to the people.

Yes it was. Both sides clearly stated that Leave meant leaving the Customs Union.

I wonder where your insistence that elected MPs should decide will be if this (non binding) vote does support a customs union.

I do not think they should subvert the decision of the referendum either, but if they do they may be punished by their constituents. The Lords face no such threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 10:54 AM

Lord Kerr's summing up before the division was extremely witty and one section related to Keith's last post:

"I ought to pay tribute to my past—my various masters from the past—who are marking my homework so harshly. I owe the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, an apology. I am sure that he explained to the country at large the truth about the customs union and that he did it every day, morning, noon and night, but I am not sure that the country was listening. What I remember is the man who is now the Foreign Secretary telling the country, “Nobody is even talking about leaving the single market”. He published that the day after the referendum, having said it throughout the referendum campaign. So I exonerate the noble Lord—I have to; he was my boss.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 11:55 AM

"For myself I think they serve a useful function, but must never be allowed to circumvent the will of the Commons."

2The Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949 are two Acts of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, which form part of the constitution of the United Kingdom. Section 2(2) of the Parliament Act 1949 provides that the two Acts are to be construed as one.

The Parliament Act 1911 asserted the supremacy of the House of Commons by limiting the legislation-blocking powers of the House of Lords (the suspensory veto). Provided the provisions of the Act are met, legislation can be passed without the approval of the House of Lords.
The Parliament Acts have been used to pass legislation against the wishes of the House of Lords on seven occasions since 1911, including the passing of the Parliament Act 1949. Some constitutional lawyers had questioned the validity of the 1949 Act. These doubts were rejected in 2005 when members of the Countryside Alliance unsuccessfully challenged the validity of the Hunting Act 2004, which had been passed under the auspices of the Act. In October 2005, the Appellate Committee of the House of Lords dismissed the Alliance's appeal against this decision, with an unusually large panel of nine Law Lords (out of then-existing twelve) holding that the 1949 Act was a valid Act of Parliament."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 12:59 PM

It would need someone with a deeper legal background than me to explain the Parliament Acts in detail, but my understanding that whereas previously the Lords could veto certain bills, they can now delay them for up to three sessions.

In the context of a time-limited Brexit negotiation, that delay could have the same effect as a veto, I think. As I say, it really someone with much deeper knowledge of the law than I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 03:03 AM

So you think the consumers, and businesses that depend upon the EU for their supply chains should pay the price of gratifying a handful of rabid tories. The question posed in the referendum did not explicitly seek consent to leave the customs union.

The ballot paper did not provide consent to leave the EEA.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:03 AM

It's no good arguing with them, SPB. Your words will be manipulated, distorted and used against you. You have made your point. Many on here agree and you really don't want to get involved with those that dont. More and more people are realising that making your point is what matters and not getting involved with these people makes Mudcat a sweeter place:-)

Entirely up to you or course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:04 AM

Oh, and 4500!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:24 AM

So you think the consumers, and businesses that depend upon the EU for their supply chains should pay the price of gratifying a handful of rabid tories

Everyone who voted for it was a consumer.

rabid tories

There are plenty of Labour supporters who support Leave and plenty of Tories who support Remain.

The ballot paper did not provide consent to leave the EEA.

Of course you could not put everything on a ballot paper, but the campaign on both sides was clear that Leave meant leaving the Customs Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:54 AM

So the question is whether the consumers who voted for it did so in the clear understanding that because of the things SB raised they may well be personally worse off.
The hope of Leave campaigners is that they won't be, but the risk was there.

I have a certain admiration for those who say "this is right for the country so I will do it even if I am personally worse off both short and long term" but I hazard that there were not very many such people. Note that this is entirely different to 'Project Fear', since the leave campaign was that it was all untrue. What I am talking about is those who said even if it is true and I am worse off, it is the right thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:09 AM

DMcG, there were plenty of very authoritative warnings that Leaving would bring a cost, and it must have deterred many people from voting Leave. I certainly had second thoughts.

Despite that there was still a clear majority who thought the price worth paying. People made that same decision in 1939.

Dave,
More and more people are realising that making your point is what matters and not getting involved

If your point is worth making it is worth defending.
What are you afraid of?
Not being able to defend it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:19 AM

The question posed in the referendum did not explicitly seek consent to leave the customs union.
The question set was whether we should leave the European Union.
The EU Customs Union is made up of the member states of the EU.
Leaving the EU clearly also means leaving the EU Customs Union.
There would then be the possibility of setting up some form of customs union with the EU Customs Union. But, as part of the reason for leaving the EU was to allow us to trade more freely with the rest of the world, remaining part of the currently restrictive EU Customs Union would not have been expected.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:30 AM

I agree there were many authorative people saying that Keith. But all of the on3s I can think of were on the Remain side and were tarts with the Project Fear/Who wants experts brushes.

Can you remind me of Leave campaigners who said there was a cost to leaving which might hit you personally, voter?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:31 AM

That's quite an autocorrect. 'Tarred'not 'tarts'. I cast no such aspersions!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:35 AM

Can you remind me of Leave campaigners who said there was a cost to leaving which might hit you personally, voter?

No. That point was being well made by the other side as you say.
Everyone was aware that there might be a cost, certainly in the short term, but a clear majority thought it worth paying.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:57 AM

I would agree with that Keith, if the leave campaign had not been saying the whole time it was all lies. So the leave campaign does not seem to have made clear to people there was a possible cost to them personally in voting leave.

Anyway. The past is the past and this thread is supposed to be about life after Brexit. And the latest is that the EU is reported to have rejected the UK's Irish border solutions, according to the Telegraph and the BBC today.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 06:48 AM

if the leave campaign had not been saying the whole time it was all lies.

I do not accept that. Exaggerated but not lies.
The predictions for instance of a large rise in unemployment following a Leave vote did prove false and other claims exaggerated.

Re the border, I suspect it is a tactic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 07:10 AM

"The ballot paper did not provide consent to leave the EEA."

Absolutely it didn't, and what's more, just before the referendum a YouGov poll showed that around half of intending leave voters would be happy to remain in the EEA. So much for the claimed clarity of the campaign.

Apropos of what was on the ballot paper, if you want an entertaining and meaningful little read google "Medium Read the question." Sorry about my chronic linklessnessitudinous condition.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 07:29 AM

Medium- read the question
As it's difficult to find from the suggested search text.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 07:35 AM

Absolutely it didn't, and what's more, just before the referendum a YouGov poll showed that around half of intending leave voters would be happy to remain in the EEA.
Any source for that wild assertion?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 07:35 AM

Cheers, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 08:11 AM

No gain without pain, as the saying goes!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 08:15 AM

Your hopefulness will surely evaporate, Iains. I hope I'm wrong...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM

I'll try again:

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 07:10 AM
. . . just before the referendum a YouGov poll showed that around half of intending leave voters would be happy to remain in the EEA.

Any source for that wild assertion?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 09:13 AM

"Poll reveals EEA Option has big support (including half of Leave voters)" ("Medium" again)

In fact, the graph in the article shows 42% of leavers supporting EEA membership and 45% opposed. I admit to relying on the headline too much when I said "around half," but I don't think the point falls on that. Wild is only wild when it's wild, Nigel. You meant "Steve, can you back that up?"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 10:03 AM

No, I meant what I said:
. . . just before the referendum a YouGov poll showed that around half of intending leave voters would be happy to remain in the EEA.

Any source for that wild assertion?

The link I created from your rough description of the page seemed to match what you wanted, but the closest to your words (quoted above) that I could find was:
UPDATE, 13th June 2016: A Yougov poll in the Sunday Telegraph, sponsored by the Adam Smith Institute reveals almost half of Leave voters would consider the EEA Option after a Leave vote

Percentages aside, I see a big difference between "Being willing to consider the EEA option", and "being happy to remain in the EEA".

Your use of English may see them as identical.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 10:56 AM

I found this Borisism amusing:

-----------

The foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, told the Daily Telegraph on Wednesday: “Without your ability to do things in a different way if you want, and your ability to do free trade deals, there is very little point in Brexit. I think Theresa totally gets that.”

-----------

I understand you mean Teresa must stick to the UK position. But do you also realise that you are saying if the EU stands firm and the UK concedes, you think there is little point in Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 11:29 AM

Somewhere in between, I'd say, Nigel. Now why don't we just agree to ignore each other's linguistic peccadillos, Nigel? Pursuing such things can be tedious but there's nothing I like better than picking holes in a pedant once I'm confronted. Don't say I didn't tell you. I'm typing messages in a rush here, not composing the laws of the land.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 11:37 AM

As a change from people claiming the '4000'post etc, which is fairly arbitrary number, I thought I would claim '4521'and give some interesting fact about it. But while 4520 is the number of regions of the complex plane is cut into by drawing lines between all pairs of the 20th root of unity, and 4522 is the number of non-interaecting room paths joining opposite corners of an 8x3 chessboard, there seems to be nothing interesting about 4521.

That's interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 11:40 AM

Somewhere in between, I'd say, Nigel. Now why don't we just agree to ignore each other's linguistic peccadillos,

It's not 'linguistic pecadillos'. It's changing the meaning of something that you're reporting as having been stated elsewhere, and giving it as if it was a fact.
When this is pointed out you hide under "It's a linguistic peccadillo", or "I didn't really mean it" or "it was just whimsy".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 01:00 PM

When I said it was just whimsy, I didn't really mean it. It was just a linguistic peccadillo.

Wow, I'm so glad you were here to tell me that, DMcG. I can't wait to wow all my mates with it...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 03:12 PM

We must be on Monroe heights again. Number wise.

Nigel. When someone quotes a You Gov poll that is usually the source. When someone says 'around half' 40%-60% is quite acceptable. When someone has no better argument than linguistic gymnastics it generally means they have nothing useful to say. Don't tell me that the 'different language' syndrome has rubbed off on you. Maybe it is the company you keep.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:15 PM

Not only that, Dave, I apologised for following the headline instead of the graph BEFORE Nige waded in!! You can't win!

But round here, you CAN lose... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:32 PM

Merkel in a bit of a pickle. No brexit agreement will hurt Germany.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/949061/brexit-news-germany-angela-merkel-eu-uk
To further increase her popularity she has told her parishioners that if the euro needs a bailout then their bank accounts will provide it.
Swimmingly good news,
and Macron has some very unhappy Frenchmen to contend with. They take a dim view of his revised immigration laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:40 PM

I gather all economic forecasts are equal, but some are more equal than others, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:51 PM

The Express article is based on work by  Günter Hannich as they make clear. You may want to read up on him before commenting on it too readily.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 06:02 PM

Wot? and spoil the fun?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 03:42 AM

I auggest you learn as many of these as you can, Steve. It will make you the life and soul of the party, I am sure....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 04:36 AM

DMcG,
But do you (Boris) also realise that you are saying if the EU stands firm and the UK concedes, you think there is little point in Brexit?

Yes. If we are not able to strike trade deals of our own and are still ruled by EU nothing will have been gained.

If the EU stands firm, no deal is better than a bad one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 04:47 AM

If the EU stands firm, no deal is better than a bad one

But that's not what it says. It is not saying leave with a bad deal, which would still be "Britain Exiting the EU", which is after all what "Brexit" means. It is saying there is little value in Brexiting i.e. leaving the EU at all. I am sure that is not what he meant, which is why I found it amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:01 AM

I meant 'leave with no deal'of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:10 AM

The Boris quote,
“Without your ability to do things in a different way if you want, and your ability to do free trade deals, there is very little point in Brexit. I think Theresa totally gets that.”

I agree with him. There would be no point in such a Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:18 AM

Exactly. So if you don't get such a deal there is little point in Brexit. I.e. in leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:32 AM

To be clear: what we are talking about now with the Boris quote is simply another example of his speaking without actually thinking about what he is saying. He has a very long list of such mistakes, and this is fortunately an insignificant example. But it happened to amuse me. It is of no more import than that.

There are plenty of more substantial thing to discuss, so I will not comment further on this particular quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 06:28 AM

Exactly. So if you don't get such a deal there is little point in Brexit. I.e. in leaving the EU.

No. There would be no point in such a Brexit so we should leave with no deal rather than accept that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 12:29 PM

I think that the Boris quote needs to be enlarged so that it becomes clearer what he is saying:
“Without your ability to do things in a different way if you want, and your ability to do free trade deals, there is very little point in Brexit. ”
I read it as: If an agreed Brexit goes ahead, but leaves us unable to negotiate our own trade deals, then that Brexit would be pointless. In that case we would not wish to take the 'agreed' (offered) deal, but would be better just leaving the EU without an agreed deal.
Effectively he is just reiterating "No deal, is better than a bad (or poor) deal." And in this case "No deal" does not meaning remaining within the EU, but leaving with no advance agreement about how we would in future deal with the EU, in other words, on WTO terms.
"I think Theresa totally gets that.": Theresa May has already stated that "no deal is better than a bad deal".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 12:46 PM

It has come to something when the words that spew from our foreign Secretary need to be explained and justified by people on a folk music forum

Different language etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 12:50 PM

It has come to something when the words that spew from our foreign Secretary need to be explained and justified by people on a folk music forum
They only needed to be explained because of the inability of some members of the forum to understand them as originally stated, even knowing the general viewpoint of the politician who was using them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:06 PM

I said I wouldn't say anything further on that quote, but in view of that comment, nigel, I will point out that in my the very original post I made plain that is what I thought Boris meant and have done so in several posts since, so talk of not understanding is not justified. Now you and I and several other people and on this thread can easily modify what Boris said to make what he probably meant clearer. He could have made the change you did. But he didnt. He could have made plain, as Keith would like, that unless we got that from the EU we should l3ave with no deal. But he didn't. In fact there are many other phrasing that would make his probable intention clear. But he didn't use the. Instead he went for one of the few phrasing that is probably the opposite of what he meant. And I have repeatly said, my amusement came from the gap between what he said and what he meant.

Now, anyone want to talk about 'The Times saying that No 10 would 'would not be crying in their beer'if they U turn to accept a customs union?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:44 PM

Sunday Times' hint of U-turn on customs union

(Yes, I know it is an unconfirmed story at the moment.)

Being "The Times", only the intro can be read due to the firewall, but it sets out the gist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:04 PM

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

It can even be applied to members of the cabinet!I

Mind you, that shouldn't really surprise me with this lot:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:32 PM

DMcG, here is the whole piece,

Theresa May’s team has privately admitted she may have to accept permanent membership of a European customs union, after a secret wargaming exercise concluded that even Brexiteers such as Michael Gove and David Davis would not resign in protest.
The prime minister has insisted that the UK will leave the common tariff area so it can pursue free trade deals outside the EU. But one of May’s political team told a meeting on March 20 that she and senior aides “will not be crying into our beer” if parliament forces the government’s hand — a position that will enrage some Brexiteers.

The Lords voted last week to stay in a customs union and 10 Tory MPs are expected to do so in the Commons, overturning May’s majority.
In the crunch meeting — attended by Oliver Robbins, May’s chief Brexit negotiator — officials predicted Gove and Davis would accept that outcome while only Boris Johnson and Liam Fox would be likely to quit. The foreign secretary has publicly said staying in a customs union would be “worse” than remaining in the EU.
Gove’s stance was confirmed by four sources who have discussed the issue with the environment secretary. “Michael is not ready to roll over in cabinet,” one said, “but he recognises that the arithmetic is difficult.”

The revelations will be greeted with anger by hardline Brexiteers around Jacob Rees-Mogg, who have privately warned Tory whips that remaining in a customs union would prompt a leadership challenge.
A source familiar with the discussion said: “They sat in a room in 9 Downing Street when they were discussing Brexit and Olly Robbins came in. The discussion focused on what to do if parliament votes to stay in a customs union. Someone from the political unit at No 10 said: ‘We wouldn’t cry into our beer if we were forced to do this.’ The PM needs to go through the choreography of trying to leave but we might be forced to do it.”
Robbins has been pushing for customs union membership as a way of preventing a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The source added: “The civil service fast stream have a pool on who is going to resign first. All the money is on Liam Fox and then Boris.”
Members of May’s Brexit war cabinet will meet on Wednesday to discuss trade before finalising the UK’s stance ahead of a crunch EU summit on June 29.
In an effort to turn the screws, Labour is demanding the prime minister bring forward a binding Commons vote on whether Britain should remain in the union.
In a letter to May, Sir Keir Starmer, Labour’s Brexit spokesman, claims that delaying the vote has already led to “deep anxiety” for businesses and communities across the UK, particularly in Northern Ireland. He offered to surrender Wednesday’s opposition day debate so she can bring forward the vote.
“The government cannot indefinitely delay the passage of legislation through the Commons for fear of defeat on crucial votes,” Starmer writes. “If a decision is not made until June then that will leave just three months to negotiate the details of the final agreement.”
A Downing Street source said May would continue to argue for Britain to quit the union. “Government policy is to leave the customs union. That’s what we will continue to argue for. That’s where we want to end up.”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:36 PM

Thanks for that, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 05:18 PM

DO we really want the rest of the world dictating their terms for a trade deal. Australia have already said that if we reamin in a custom union with EU then forget it. It is none of the rest of thw worlds business, and if they try to impose their terms, then they can just whistle. If we are supposedly leaving EU to bring control back to the UK, themn any trade deal with the rest of the world must be on IUK's terms. Of course that wont happen, and the likelihood then is that working people in the UK will end up being 'sold-out' to globalism. So those winging that people from EU are driving down wages - ironically those who were against the minimum wage - will have something to wing about when even more compnaies follow the Dyson employment model and shaft UK workers. OF course then Tory voters will turn their venom on some other disadvantaged group - maybe it is single parents' turn again????? I am still waiting for the racists to hone in on their next target. Once they get their own way over EU, how will they address the fact that non-EU immigration alone is over their target? Will that mean more stringent conditionality - how will that bode with any future trade deal? And what happens about future EU citizens who also meet criteria - or will europeans be discriminated against? And how long will it be before UK, out of desperation slimes its way out of its responsibilities for refugee settlement? My answer to the racists wh may say so what is that it would be a lesson worth learning for their families to go through what refugees go through. On top of this, just for the satisfaction of being a pathetic little Englander stamping their feet, the rights of the population of the UK have been handed over to the whim of tory s***s who dont give a toss about anyone but themselves,

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:38 AM

BBC, 14 minutes ago,
"Brexit: Government insists UK will leave customs union."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43860453

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:44 AM

That's so, Keith and the vote on Thursday is non-binding. But there are votes in round about a month that are binding.

It would be a brave PM who insisted a government would defy Parliament's will should such a binding vote go against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:51 AM

It is reported they will make it a vote of confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:51 AM

And it would be a stupid government which defied the expressed will of the people. (or of the majority of those who voted)

It would also be a stupid opposition who tried to put the government in such a position of having to choose between the will of parliament & the will of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:55 AM

It is the oppositions job make life difficult for the government. Otherwise they are not an opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:56 AM

The Guardian has just said, "Downing Street sources are now saying that, on the confidence issue point, the BBC bulletin was wrong."

The BBC bulletin was not 2 hours ago!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:59 AM

It is the oppositions job make life difficult for the government. Otherwise they are not an opposition.

Not true. The opposition can and does support the government on some issues, and always has.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:43 AM

It was, I think, Randolph Churchill who said the duty of an opposition was to oppose. But im my opinion Keith is closer: the duty of an opposition is to challenge and thereby get the best outcome for the country.

Whichever you prefer, it is the clear duty of the Opposition to ensure staying in the customs union is considered adequately.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:59 AM

it is the clear duty of the Opposition to ensure staying in the customs union is considered adequately.
Although, as 'the customs union' is part of the EU, they have effectively already voted to leave it by voting to issue article 50.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:59 AM

The opposition is there to hold the government to account. As for the "will of the people," all we know is that just over a third of over-18s voted to leave the EU after a campaign of lies and distortions on both sides of the argument. We don't know, as the question wasn't asked, what the "will of the people" is when it comes to staying in a customs union with the EU, though the YouGov poll I mentioned, taken just before the referendum, suggested that almost half of prospective leave voters would have been happy to be in one. Now that poll was taken towards the end of campaigning. The fact that almost half of leave voters were still failing by then to realise that what they said they would have been happy with would have been completely at odds with all the brave talk about free trade with the world, new golden global opportunities, etc., speaks volumes about the quality of the campaign and the continuing ignorance of large sections of the electorate. In other words, the electorate was in no position to make such an irrevocable decision. Those leavers who keep on churning out this Pontius Pilate-style "will of the people" guff could do with a hefty dose of honesty therapy. If you really insist on a safety net argument to bolster your case for this rotten situation, you need a better one than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:14 AM

You know Nigel is going to question that 'happy'again, don't you, Steve? To do would be to miss your argument, which would b3 just as valid if you had said "prepared" instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:18 AM

He can do what he likes. I'm posting to Mudcat Bullshit, not drawing up a legal document. That little point is as nothing compared to his persistent "will of the people" nonsense, when nothing of the kind is even remotely clear to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:25 AM

Incidentally, there is no mention of customs union or single market in Article 50, which is solely concerned with a decision to leave the EU. It's then up to the EU and the withdrawing state to negotiate their future trading relationship. There are countries who are in a customs union and single market with the EU who are not EU members, lest we forget.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:28 AM

In other words, the electorate was in no position to make such an irrevocable decision.
No more in ignorance than those who were misled into voting to remain in the 'common market' when a conspiracy of silence prevented anyone realising exactly what the eventual programme would be.
It has taken us over 40 years to get a chance to revoke that decision.
Perhaps we should agree that we will get another vote on whether to rejoin the EU (if it survives) in 40 years time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:36 AM

"It has taken us over 40 years to get a chance to revoke that decision."

Quite so, in a second referendum. :-)

In both cases, Nigel, the electorate were ignorant of the implications of the decisions we were asked to make, far more so than the politicians we elect to steer the country in the best direction. I'm so glad you agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:37 AM

How does being ignorant on one occasion justify being ignorant on another?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:44 AM

That's the point. Neither referendum was justified. Nigel can hardly keep up his forty-year-old beef against the one whilst simultaneously lauding the other as revealing "the will of the people." Let's face it, Nigel. You can complain all you like about dirty dealings in the 1975 one, but things hadn't moved on much in that regard by 2016, had they? Anyone for the Boris bus? Farage's immigration poster? Project Fear?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:57 AM

I believe that we were less in ignorance for the latest referendum, which is why we (the majority of those who voted) voted against the urgings of the majority of politicians.
A case of 'Fool me once . . .'
Of course, you no doubt believe the voters were voting in ignorance because they disagreed with your stance. That seems to be a typical remain viewpoint. "We lost the vote so the majority of the electorate must be either stupid or racist."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 07:35 AM

A half dozen of the most prolific posters contribute to this Britin political thread but America has no equivalence here even in the face of mass deportations and threats to arrest poitical figures.
hmm
Democracy may have a longer lifetime in England than in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:01 AM

Democracy may have a longer lifetime in England than in the US.
It already has had.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:05 AM

I, and Steve, and probably others if I could be bothered enough to check, have been clear the ignorance was on both sides because of a very dubious campaign on both sides.

As to whether 'the public'are ignorant: let's imagine we take 10 issues and ask 1000 members of the public whether they arise from the customs union, single market or social contract. How do you feel they would fare? I think it would be pretty bad, which would be fair enough - not everyone follows every twist and turn as intently those who lost here - were it not that the future of the country for good or ill depended on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:07 AM

.. who post...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:35 AM

You would say that, wouldn't you, Nigel?

And I've been very consistent about opposing referendums in general. Had the remain side won, we'd be well into a campaign by the leave side for yet another vote by now. That's how it goes. And I certainly don't think that leavers are more ignorant than remainers. My (consistent) point is that the campaign left everyone far more ignorant than it should have. As for whether leavers are racist, well some definitely are. Much was made in the campaign about "uncontrolled" immigration, including the use of the Farage racist poster, how foreigners drive down our wages and take our jobs and bung up the NHS, etc. These were all racist allusions and there's no doubt that they pandered to a lowest common denominator of racist sentiment that exists among many people in this country. It would be unrealistic to suggest that they didn't impact the result of the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:51 AM

Much was made in the campaign about "uncontrolled" immigration, including the use of the Farage racist poster, how foreigners drive down our wages and take our jobs and bung up the NHS, etc. These were all racist allusions and there's no doubt that they pandered to a lowest common denominator of racist sentiment that exists among many people in this country. It would be unrealistic to suggest that they didn't impact the result of the vote.

Implicit in that is that you believe the inhabitants of the rest of Europe are a different 'race' when compared with the inhabitants of UK. There may be a few different racial types, such as tall blond Nordic types, or the more sun-scorched peoples from the southern countries of Europe, but I don't see that there is a distinct EU race which has notable differences from the UK race. How then can you categorise this as 'racist'?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:59 AM

The Race Relations Act of 1965 outlaws discrimination on 'the grounds of colour, race or ethnic or national origin."

National origin is explicitly listed, note. It is not linked to a scientific definition of race.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:10 AM

The Race Relations Act of 1965 outlaws discrimination on 'the grounds of colour, race or ethnic or national origin."

Again, implicit in that is that discrimination can be on the grounds of race, or of national origin. The two are clearly different, so while it may be discrimination, it is not racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:10 AM

How then can you categorise this as 'racist'?

When you are an ideologue most of those who disagree with you blur, in your mind, into a single broad category like racist, right winger, Islamophobe etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:29 AM

If something is an offence under the Race Relations Act, calling it racist is close enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:34 AM

The very concept of race is problematic. It's fine to use the term racism to describe discrimination against any national or ethnic grouping not the same as your own. You don't get to revise that usage here to suit your agenda, Nigel. Stick to the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:40 AM

If discrimination against those of a different national origin is not racist because it implicitly mentioned then antisemitism is not racist either.

Everyone understands that racism covers discrimination against anyone of a different origin, culture or religion and the fact that you performing linguistic handsprings on such a trivial point goes to show that you have nothing serious to add.

Following you line of reasoning there is no such thing as raciam at all because we all belong to the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:50 AM

BTW - I am suitably gobsmacked by an earlier post. I always understood the purpose of HM opposition was to, well, oppose. Now I learn that that is not the case. Apparently they are there to support the government. Jeremy should be blowing kisses at Theresa rather than giving her a hard time. You learn something new every day on here...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:10 AM

The opposition are only there to oppose if they believe that what the government is doing requires opposition.
They were fairly strongly behind the government's decision to issue article 50. But maybe that was self-preservation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:10 AM

Ignorance? 25% of Americans do not know there are 3 branches of government or how many Supreme Court judges there are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:13 AM

"The Race Relations Act of 1965 outlaws discrimination on 'the grounds of colour, race or ethnic or national origin."

Again, implicit in that is that discrimination can be on the grounds of race, or of national origin. The two are clearly different, so while it may be discrimination, it is not racism.

By that logic, it isn't racist to discriminate on grounds of colour then either! Colour and race as just as separated in that definition as are race and national origin. Tell us why you think it's called the RACE Relations Act, Nigel...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:30 AM

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/tag/role-of-opposition-parties/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 12:24 PM

Dave,
Apparently they(the opposition) are there to support the government.

No-one said any such thing Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 12:57 PM

BREAKING:Government defeated on EU Charter of Fundamental Rights

EU Withdrawal Bill

House of Lords

Parliament

Peers vote 316 to 245 for crossbencher Lord Pannick's amendment, which aims to ensure that the majority of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights is carried over to form part of domestic law

=========
No doubt we will be assured that in the referendum vote people were insisting they didn't want their rights protected.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:04 PM

A vote to leave the EU meant precisely that and included all the garbage that sails with her. Existing legislation may be retained, modified, or junked. Your continuing drivel about it meant this or it meant that is simply drivel. Leave means leave. This must be the only forum around where a simple word like leave finds dispute as to it's meaning. You all sound like a bunch of aged hippies that have been at the weed for too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:14 PM

You seem to have forgotten that the whole point of the Withdrawal Bill is to move certain EU laws and regulations into the domain of the U.K. Law. These laws are ones that could be moved, just like the rest. Or are you suggesting no laws at all should be moved under the Withdrawal Bill, in which case there would be no point in the government bringing the Bill in the first place.

I was never a hippy, by the way., as photos from my Univeristy days demonstrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:40 PM

The fishing industry has been commented on recently. An article in todays Guardian by Polly Toynbee helps to refute some of the claims that have been made by posters on here.

Could someone kindly do the honours and supply a link to it.

There article tag line is "Propaganda delivered the Brexit vote but it can't land more fish"

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:16 PM

here you are, Raggytash.


At the time of posting that weed smoking bunch of hippies the House of Lords has defeated the Governemt three times and extracted at least one and arguably two concessions. Such revisions of proposed law is their role in our Parliamentary system, as we all know.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:18 PM

Thanks DMcG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:52 PM

"A vote to leave the EU meant precisely that and included all the garbage that sails with her."

If you're including the customs union and single market in that "garbage," Iains, then that's incorrect, as is proven by the nations that subscribe to them yet are not members of the EU. We can leave the EU but stay in one or both of those. Before the vote a large percentage of prospective leave voters didn't exactly see it your way, according to that YouGov poll. I suppose they were just confused. Which could mean that the result was affected by a lot of confused voters. That's worrying, innit...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:50 PM

Giving the average voter an opportunity to vote is stupid. Most have zero to little knowledge of the issues, or short and long term implications of each particular outcome. Arguing about who knew what prior to a vote is futile because of what I stated above.
   The real problem is:It is a deeply flawed system but, in order to preserve democracy, what could you replace it with?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:10 PM

I'd say you go for a system very like the one we have now, where people elect politicians, who take the decisions and after four or five years they can throw them out.

What you don't do is confuse that by having referendums where MPs are unable to do what some believe to be sensible in order to satisfy people with "zero of little knowledge of the issues".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:32 PM

But there is a big difference between voting for a government that can be ousted after four or five years and voting for what is in effect, in your or my lifetime anyway, an irrevocable decision to leave the EU, with all the complex implications that go with it. Parenthetically, note that a decision to remain would NOT have been irrevocable - we just have another vote, innit, an internal UK matter. In fact, that's what we've done - it's just that the next vote was 41 years after the last one, that's all. What I'd do about it is keep the current electoral system in place (tweaked? Discuss...) but NEVER have referendums. I thought remain was a shoo-in but I still vehemently argued against having the referendum, using the same argument as here. I'm sure my posts in that regard are checkable, though I'm not bothering.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:36 PM

I actually cross-posted with you there despite the time discrepancy - unbeknownst to me my post hadn't taken; fortunately I'd copied it before my failed submit...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:16 AM

I agree entirely about the last couple of comments on referendums. Since it was first mooted and ever since I have said that a referendum is a way for the government to cop out of the decision taking process that we elect and pay them to make. Ludicrous state of affairs when we pay our MPs thousand of pounds to do a job and then have to do it ourselves, without the tools needed to make those decisions.

I have been told, by the remainders on here, that I am only against referendums because it went the wrong way. That merely highlights the point that these people have no idea what they are talking about. Or voting for!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:54 AM

What is again being conveniently forgotten in the claims that we should have left this to parliament is the reason we had the referendum. In our (effectively) two-party state, both parties were in favour of remaining in the EU, meaning that the many people who disagreed with our membership had no opportunity to be represented.
Along came UKIP, and they started getting sufficient votes that the only way they could be stopped was by the promise of a referendum.
The result of the referendum showed just how large a proportion of the voting electorate had previously been disenfranchised by the two-party system.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:03 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:16 PM
. . .
At the time of posting that weed smoking bunch of hippies the House of Lords has defeated the Governemt three times and extracted at least one and arguably two concessions. Such revisions of proposed law is their role in our Parliamentary system, as we all know.

Revision of proposed laws is not the role of the House of Lords. Suggesting revisions is.
It may be known as a 'revising chamber' but the revisions are only recommendations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:07 AM

A review

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00344890600583792

My view is that a referendum is the best way of resolving contentious issues. But there is no point in having a referendum if it's supremacy is undermined by parliament. It make the entire exercise pointless.
Additionally if Parliament destroys the referendum result is it not deliberately in defiance of the electorate?
Where does that leave democracy?

There is no point in having referendums if the existing legislation is so weak that the outcome cannot be enforced. This is a glaring omission Parliament has made no attempt to rectify. It will make any future referendum a meaningless farce.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:43 AM

Yes, Nigel, we all understand that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:46 AM

Sorry Nigel, I take that back. You and I understand that but those who say the Lords are overruling the Commons may not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:53 AM

Along came UKIP, and they started getting sufficient votes that the only way they could be stopped was by the promise of a referendum.

Nonsense. UKIP could have been stopped by any governing party worth its salt by showing them up as the petty xenophobic racists that they are. Their ridiculous claims about immigrants ruining the economy should have been show up for what they were - Just scapegoating to distract people away from how the country had been mismanaged. Unfortunately Cameron and Co were the party guilty of mismanagement and they compounded it by being so shit scared of an unelected pressure group that they caved in.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:14 AM

Nonsense. UKIP could have been stopped by any governing party worth its salt by showing them up as the petty xenophobic racists that they are. Their ridiculous claims about immigrants ruining the economy should have been show up for what they were - Just scapegoating to distract people away from how the country had been mismanaged. Unfortunately Cameron and Co were the party guilty of mismanagement and they compounded it by being so shit scared of an unelected pressure group that they caved in.

Nevertheless, the outcome of the referendum has made it patently clear that leaving the EU was the will of the majority of the voters*. As neither 'major party' was going to move on the matter, they were right to fear that UKIP would continue to gain in influence if nothing was done about the call for separation from the EU. As such a referendum was an option which avoided splitting either party over the issue. It was a referendum of convenience. The major parties underestimated the numbers who would support Brexit.

*voters: Those who actually vote, as opposed to 'electorate' or 'population'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:41 AM

When governments make decisions that you disagree with, you are not "disenfranchised." You will have had your say in who governs, and next time round you can vote them out. There is no democratic imperative that ensures that both sides of an argument are represented in parliament. Millions of people agreed with Enoch Powell's call for repatriation of blacks. The fact that no major party backed him does not mean that those millions were disenfranchised. Millions of people would like to bring back hanging. The fact that there is no parliamentary appetite for it doesn't mean that all those people are disenfranchised. The fact that there is no split along party lines for legalising fox hunting with dogs doesn't mean that thousands of hooray Henrys are disenfranchised. You have the vote and things don't always go your way. Not since I was a little lad collecting numbers for the Labour Party polling stations, except for a couple of years when I lived in Poplar, have I lived in a constituency that had a Labour MP but that doesn't mean that I've been disenfranchised (or that I've always lived in posh areas). You're disenfranchised, or at least have yet to become enfranchised, because you're under 18 for example, when you're prevented from voting at all. The referendum result was a complete disaster and I was devastated by it, but, as I was allowed to vote in it, I'm not disenfranchised by the outcome. Your complaint that no major party wanted out of the EU rings hollow now that no major party has either voted against having a referendum or against Article 50. You're hardly fighting my corner for me, are you, about the fact that, according to your stance (not mine), I've been disenfranchised? To take your argument to the absurd, no major party is in support of making free chip butties available on street corners at Saturday kicking-out time, a policy I could find myself fighting for (and losing). Doesn't mean I'd be disenfranchised, no matter how foolish tbe decision to reject the policy.   Resort to a dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:49 AM

"Labour Party polling stations" implies that elections for Radcliffe Council and the Bury and Radcliffe constituency (as was) were outrageously rigged. Insert "at" at your leisure!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:51 AM

UKIP could have been stopped by any governing party worth its salt by showing them up as the petty xenophobic racists that they are.

You forget how rude the Tories were about them. They did accuse them of racism and called them "swivel eyed loons."
The fact remains that outside of Westminster most people did not like being in the EU.
UKIP offered a referendum and that would have won them a large vote in the general election. They had already won the EU election.

That is why all the parties, not just the Tories, also promised a referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:54 AM

taking Steve's suggestion I consulted a dictionary:

disenfranchise

not having the right to vote, or a similar right, or having had that right taken away:

?having no power to make people listen to your opinion or to affect the society you live in:

I think that the second point aptly shows that the majority of voters were previously disenfranchised over the matter of leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:10 AM

UKIP could have been stopped by any governing party worth its salt by showing them up as the petty xenophobic racists that they are.

You forget how rude the Tories were about them. They did accuse them of racism and called them "swivel eyed loons."
The fact remains that outside of Westminster most people did not like being in the EU.
UKIP offered a referendum and that would have won them a large vote in the general election. They had already won the EU election.

That is why all the parties, not just the Tories, also promised a referendum.

Yes, but the Labour Party have a history of "promising a referendum".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:11 AM

So any time you feel that Parliament's makeup doesn't allow for the reflections of your own views you're disenfranchised, eh? So what about those other examples I gave you, and do you think that I'm disenfranchised by the fact that the major parties both voted for Article 50, a move I vehemently disagreed with? Or is it ok when the boot's on the other foot? And which dictionary, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:25 AM

Resorting to arguments as to who promised what in the context of UK party politics is specious, but ok, I'll join in anyway. The Tories promised to get rid of the deficit by 2015 and to reduce net migration to the tens of thousands. Cameron promised to trigger Article 50 by June 28 2016 in the event of a leave vote. Any more for any more?

Just a small point: the "swivel-eyed loons" remark was made by a party aide, much to Cameron's embarrassment. Not so much a case of "the Tories" saying it, more a case of a lack of internal party discipline.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:31 AM

Which dictionary?
Cambridge online

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:40 AM

So any time you feel that Parliament's makeup doesn't allow for the reflections of your own views you're disenfranchised, eh?

No, my single vote makes very little difference, but when neither of the major parties represent the view of the majority of the voting public then the public are being disenfranchised.


do you think that I'm disenfranchised by the fact that the major parties both voted for Article 50, a move I vehemently disagreed with,

No.
The issuing of Article 50 was a direct consequence of the referendum to leave the EU. You had already had your opportunity to vote on that. An opportunity offered to the whole electorate of the UK, and one in which the majority of those voting chose to end our membership of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 09:50 AM

Invoking Article 50 was a separate issue from the referendum vote, which was advisory, lest we forget. Had it not been a separate issue, there would have been no need for a parliamentary vote on it. As it happens, I was not disenfranchised by the fact that no major party opposed Article 50, any more than you were disenfranchised by the fact that no major party was in favour of leaving the EU. There is no rule in parliamentary democracy that states that both sides of an issue must be represented in Parliament. No major party now opposes abortion or is pro-hanging or pro-foxhunting with dogs. No major party wants homosexuality to be illegal. No major party is opposed to gay marriage. Millions of people in this country disagree with each of those consensuses. They are not disenfranchised. They merely live in a parliamentary democracy in which some things are inevitably disagreeable to some people. Lots of people even. You can't just cherrypick your own bee-in-bonnet issue to moan that you were disenfranchised over it and ignore the other issues just because it suits your supposed case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:24 AM

Once again arguing about the semantics of a particular word when everyone else fully understands how it was intended does no favours to your case, Nigel.

Your case, as I understand it, is that it will all turn out for the best in the end.

While I fully understand that experts are not always right, I prefer to stick with the opinion of most of the world economists rather than the follow Farage brigade.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:28 AM

Hoops Nigel, Hoops!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:35 AM

Iains - Go and find your own catchphrase!

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:39 AM

Invoking Article 50 was a separate issue from the referendum vote, which was advisory, lest we forget. Had it not been a separate issue, there would have been no need for a parliamentary vote on it.

At the time of the referendum most people would have believed that a vote to leave would be implemented.
It took a high court case to prevent Article 50 being issued without endorsement by parliament. As you say 'lest we forget', or should that be "how soon people forget"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 11:21 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:24 AM

Once again arguing about the semantics of a particular word when everyone else fully understands how it was intended does no favours to your case, Nigel.

Read back, it was Steve Shaw who queried the use of a particular word.
I used it in an accepted context as shown by my later reference (as requested) to a dictionary.

Perhaps you should be complaining about Steve Shaw's nit-picking?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 11:29 AM

Hoops is fine Dave, anyone can use it as far as I'm concerned. In fact the more the merrier!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:37 PM

Only when applied to a certain circumstance, Raggy. Out of interest it was one of the moderation team who first applied it in that way

Nigel. Steve queried it. You then made a massive issue out of that query. You really are getting to be as much a bore with your diversionary tactics and linguistic antics as the master of it. This is not a compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:21 PM

I'm sorry, Nigel, but when you talk about "disenfranchised" in the context of parliamentary democracy it means that you have improperly been prevented from voting. Your argument about both main parties being at odds with your views in no way means that you have been disenfranchised. I'm not nitpicking at all here, chaps and chapesses. Millions of people oppose abortion in this country but they won't get to vote on it directly, and the main parties are in general accord that abortion is permitted. Lots of other controversial issues, the same. Our setup is that we elect politicians to make major policy decisions, and if the majority party happens to decide on a policy with which the opposition agrees (it happens), but with which you disagree, you can't then can't go bleating around that you're disenfranchised, which is precisely what Nigel did. And Nigel, the fact that Parliament was obliged to vote on whether to invoke Article 50, a vote separate from the earlier one on whether to hold a referendum, confirms that it was a separate matter from the in-out vote. In theory, it could legitimately have gone the other way and you could have had no complaints as the courts had decided that it was not an automatic follow-on from the referendum. Get it? Lots of things in political life to grumble about, but that's how it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 02:51 PM

"And Nigel, the fact that Parliament was obliged to vote on whether to invoke Article 50, a vote separate from the earlier one on whether to hold a referendum, confirms that it was a separate matter from the in-out vote."
That may possibly be true but I think a more likely explanation of the mess is than a vote for out was not contemplated, and the necessary legislation to make it fly without dispute, simply did not occur. Aspects of the out vote that were not specifically addressed will be subject to dispute until(if) Brexit occurs. It does not help that the Government does not appear to give the result it's fullest support.
The departure negotiations are like watching a tadpole swimming through treacle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:05 PM

Nigel said:Revision of proposed laws is not the role of the House of Lords. Suggesting revisions is. 

I said:You and I understand that but those who say the Lords are overruling the Commons may not

In evidence, I offer an e-petition currently at around 112,000:
=====
Give the electorate a referendum on the abolition of the House of Lords

The House of Lords is a place of patronage where unelected and unaccountable individuals hold a disproportionate amount of influence and power which can be used to frustrate the elected representatives of the people
=====

That's one problem with referendums: they are so 'moreish'. In fact, why not abolish Parliament as a whole and use a voting app?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:44 AM

In fact, why not abolish Parliament as a whole and use a voting app?

You know, DMcG, I have mooted that very point myself. It would need a period of study followed by a quiz to confirm that you understand the issue before you vote but I think it is not such an outlandish idea for lots of issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:20 AM

That's one problem with referendums: they are so 'moreish'. In fact, why not abolish Parliament as a whole and use a voting app?

One day it may become possible. But at present those e-petitions do not appear to have strict control preventing non-UK citizens (or UK persons with no vote) from adding their names, they remain advisory only. To create an app it would need to be at least as secure as our current voting system. The recent referendum was held under the same conditions as an election, with the same associated costs.

I can't see this being taken forward as a valid option any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 04:11 AM

I wasn't suggesting a voting app as a good idea, Nigel: it was sarcastic. In fact, I think it is an appalling one that would replace any considered form of governance with mob rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:24 AM

Well, I don't think it is as daft as it sounds with the controls I mentioned earlier. Beats MPs who are swayed by pressure groups and high powered lobbyists in a lot of cases anyway. People can be more easily vetted online that in real life!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:31 AM

There was a Peter Cook show years back where he essentially did that and got everyone to vote via a black box on every little detail of governance. After a few month everyone was sick to death so he offered a vote where he would take all the decisions to take the load off them. And so became an absolute ruler.

A comedy with a serious point...

I was talking about voting in referenda not simply as a modern replacement of postal votes. Apart from the security concerns, the main concern I have there is that it a natural extension to use it in referenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:48 AM

Damn! I didn't realise someone had already published my plan to become a benign dictator.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 01:07 PM

More Government defeats today in the House of Lords.

Some may think I am gleeful about this: I am not. The bill as passed to the Lords had many flaws as was pointed out on the Commons and I don't think anything sent back for further consideration had not been criticised in the Commons. Forcing something through with known problems just because you can is a bad way of making law. I would particularly single out those Lords amendments the government accepted without a need for a vote in the House of Lords.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:56 AM

Am item on the BBC News today suggests that economic growth in the UK in the first quarter was lower than any other sine 2012. Could someone please provide a link.

Incidentally does anyone have any good news about Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:15 AM

There you go.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:42 AM

In answer to your other question there is the following from that article

Last week, the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, hinted that interest rates could rise more gradually than expected due to continuing uncertainty over Brexit and "mixed data" on the economy.

Good news for borrowers but had news for savers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:53 AM

"Incidentally does anyone have any good news about Brexit?"

Each time you post the phrase above brexit comes closer.
That is fantastic news! Keep posting!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 04:00 AM

The date of Brexit gets closer, obviously. What Brexit means seems to be getting less clear, if that is possible.   As demonstated by the row about the two UK proposals for the Irish border where we cannot even agree on the UK side if we would accept either or one is "cretinous'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 06:38 AM

How convenient is it for the preponderance of remoaners on here to have missed the mention on the Daily Politics that the deficit is no more?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 06:56 AM

and that is to do with brexit in what way?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:29 AM

Dave the Gnome wrote: and that is to do with brexit in what way?

Raggytash wrote: Incidentally does anyone have any good news about Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:55 AM

I still don't follow that. How is the deficit news anything to do with brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:19 PM

It is good news for the economy.
If bad news is to do with Brexit, so is good news.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:33 PM

I am more than happy to wait for your reply Stanron. No rush. I guess you do not need someone to speak for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:58 PM

If Keith A's response is not sufficient for you, and I wouldn't expect it to be, then try this;

either

a: my comment is not pertinent to this thread, and if so why do you keep going on about it?

or

b: it is in the right place but you would rather have an arguement than good news.

If a; is correct then no more will be said. If the truth is b; I await your next posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 05:05 PM

Answer is (a).

And we talk about it because you did seem to think it relevant, so we are interested in why you think that. You could have an insight that has escaped us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 02:15 AM

Are comments about bad economic news pertinent to this thread?
They are never questioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:40 AM

I am not arguing, Stanron. I am asking how the news about the deficit is related to brexit. I agree wholeheartedly that it is good news. I would just like you to explain how voting to leave the EU has helped to achieve the reduction. All the bad economic news reported on this thread has had a link as being partially down to economic uncertainty due to brexit. Nowhere can I find anything claiming that this good news is even partially down to the prospect of leaving Europe. If it is, great, that is what we are looking for. But I cannot find that link and hope that you can provide it.

Over to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:51 AM

So bad news is down to Brexit and pertinent, but good news is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:51 AM

Quite so. Pertinance is what matters. Then whether it is good or bad.

It is worth reminding people that while I very much think leaving is one of the worst ideas we have had for several centuries, I also reject the claim all problems are due to Brexit. I can't remember if it was this thread or another where the University pay of cancelled tried to claim Brexit was part of the justification. I did not think so and said so. Not all problems are due to Brexit, nor is all good news.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:54 AM

Chancellors

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 04:10 AM

Cross party support to prevent 'No deal'

Well, we will just have to wait and see what happens over the next few weeks, especially when the trade bill is voted on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 04:27 AM

Spot on DMcG. All of the bad news reported in this thread should be in some way brexit related. What we are seeking is brexit related good news and I cannot see how the deficit reduction is such a beast. If it is, great.

Back to Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 04:38 AM

Good morning campers. Some of you are up very early today. I am taking advantage of what may be my last ever opportunity to enjoy a cognac breakfast. Consequently, postings of significance will be delayed until the hangover kicks in. Please feel free to speculate, obfuscate and denigrate to your collective hearts content. (Interesting use of the word 'we' in the DMcG posting Date: 28 Apr 18 - 05:05 PM by the way)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:32 AM

Interesting use of the word 'we"

Firstly, you will probably know the quality of typing in my posts varies between very poor and appalling. This is in part because I so not think I am writing sacred tomes to be revered over the years so it is almost all more flow of consciousness than peer reviewed theses. So putting too much weight on an individual word is almost certainly more than it can bear.

But the word 'we' perfectly appropriate in that post, denoting all those who are interested in this topic, whatever their point of view. Those who support Brexit would be equally interested in hearing your argument about the link between the deficit and Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:33 AM

"do not think..." point illustrated, I feel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:08 AM

Sorry to hear it is your last Cognac breakfast, Stanron. Nothing serious I hope?

I take it you will not be providing a link between the deficit reduction and brexit then.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 08:00 AM

"Yes, but the Labour Party have a history of "promising a referendum""

That was in respect to the adoption of the proposed EU constitution which would have required ratification by ALL the EU states. As this had been already rejected by the (I think) Danish referendum, the expense of holding a referendum in the UK which, if it had been passed, would have made no difference would have just been a waste of money and acheive nothing except gratifying the UKIP lowlife.

Of course, anyone who still wanted to go ahead with what was by then a pointless referendum, they could have easily paid for it out of their own pockets. The government did exactly the right thing by not WASTING my taxes.

Labour never promised any other refwredum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:13 PM

I take it you will not be providing a link between the deficit reduction and brexit then.

FT,
"UK deficit returns to pre-crisis levels after decade of austerity"

"In a statement on Tuesday, the chancellor said: “Thanks to the hard work of the British people, borrowing is the lowest in over a decade. Our economy is at a turning point with debt starting to fall and people’s wages rising, as we build an economy that truly works for everyone.” "
https://www.ft.com/content/16cb28c0-479f-11e8-8ae9-4b5ddcca99b3


Remainers said debt and unemployment would soar if we voted leave.
It is good news that they were wrong in their Brexit predictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:34 PM

SO, if there is no customs union, and no trade deal that is free form tarriffs - ie a trade deal identical to the customs union, who is going to pay the tariffs for any components imported from or exported to EU as part of supply chains. How are we going to stop businssses in EU that use component manufactured in UK. What legislastion will the government put in place to make it illegal to pass increased costs onto consumers.

If firms are going to turn to wider globaloisation, then how are we going to prevent people being employed on exploitative wages?

Will the government have the guts to ban imports from countries that exploit their workers, even if it means damaging the Uk economy - a price worth paying.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:37 PM

It is certainly good those dire predictions against Brexit were wrong. Clearing the deficit is also good (though at least one economists think it is more an effect of the reduced growth)

But neither of those are Brexit doing well. There's a hill to climb, and while not going downhill is fine, it is not really progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:31 PM

From BBC Live reporting:

17:00
Breaking Government defeated on parliamentary approval of Brexit deal

EU Withdrawal Bill

House of Lords

Parliament

Peers vote 335 to 244 for Viscount Hailsham's amendment.

The amendment attaches extra conditions to parliamentary approval for the deal reached between the EU and the UK, including allowing Parliament to determine the government’s course of action if:
• the final deal is rejected by House of Commons
• the Act that is required to pass before exit is not passed into law
• the deal with the EU is not finalised by 28th Feb 2019

====

I have some commentators who say the rumours are the government will accept this without challenge because they do not think they have the numbers to overturn it. However, that is speculation at this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 May 18 - 11:57 AM

about 2000 posts back i asked for any indicators that the government was pursuing a successful policy (for anyone except the rich) on anything. something more substantial than 'jeremy corbyn is a terrorist' or whatever.....still heard nothing. yes,i know i should have left this thread to drop off the bottom end.....

come on, tory boys what are you most proud of?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 May 18 - 02:33 PM

I noted the pound has "plummeted" against the Euro. It has dropped by at least FIVE times the amount that it "soared" a few days ago.

I suppose we should all be very, very concerned about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 May 18 - 02:48 PM

Yet another unintended consequence of Brexit has been reported today. It is suggested that imports of fresh food and flowers from Europe will have to be subjected to phytosanitary checks prior to being allowed in the UK. This could delay food at points of entry by up to 48 hours.

Could some knid person kindly link to the article in todays Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:00 PM

Here You are.

For at least a year commentators have been saying the business with tariffs is the easy part of the problem. This is an example of why they say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 May 18 - 05:25 AM

As that article rightly says:
Keefe said the phytosanitary checks legally required on both sides of the border were a bigger challenge than the high-profile issue of customs checks that is currently dividing the cabinet.

“If we are all happy eating frozen meat then it’s an easy win, but if we want fresh food and having it on our shelves 365 days a year then it’s a big problem,” he said. “We export about £8bn of fresh produce a year and import £12-13bn. That amount of fresh produce going backwards and forwards is far more of a risk for the government than is anything of customs or duty.”

As pointed out before, this will be more of a problem to the EU sellers than to UK sellers, so it is in the EU's interest to come to an arrangement over this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 18 - 05:32 AM

It is not just a matter of arithmetic, Nigel. Having a barrier of some kind changes the internal cost of production, so things that were not viable for EU farmers to produce may become so. In summary the EU has alternatives for handling the shortfall that are not available to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 18 - 05:37 AM

Apologies, Nigel. I think I misread your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 May 18 - 05:38 AM

And we, likewise, will have alternatives not available to the EU. Trading with the rest of the world without the protectionist tariffs imposed by the EU.
Please note, I have specified an alternative, rather than rely on the rather nebulous the EU has alternatives for handling the shortfall that are not available to us

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 05:52 AM

There could well be benefits in trading with the rest of the world without tariffs. Of that there is no doubt. But what of the downside to that? If we have to ship our goods from the USA, China or New Zealand who pays the associated transport costs? What of the effect of all this extra traffic on global ecology? And less rigorous quality control? Protectionism is meant to protect things other than economies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 18 - 05:54 AM

You have switched back to tariffs, Nigel. We are talking about delays caused by phytosanitory rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 May 18 - 06:23 AM

I couldn't see how your comment about EU having alternatives for handling the shortfall could be about the phytosanitory rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 18 - 07:36 AM

It is because introducing a new border with with a regulation has an impact on the cost effectiveness of goods moving across every other border you have, and of producing the product internally. In this case the "cost" includes the consequences of time delays as well as the more straightforward money.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 18 - 12:52 AM

Brexit plan drawn up for border checks between NI and rest of UK

This is interesting: it looks like the 'border in the sea' is being seriously considered, even though the DUP will be furious. I concur: I have long thought it the only viable option if the UK mainland stays out of a customs union.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 May 18 - 08:30 AM

So the Toriue lowlife now wnat to apply border restrictions to travel from one pqrt of the UK to another????? F*** that, that borders on Naziism. I have a better idea, compulsory ID registration so that constituencies who still want to leave with a closed border can have a razor wire fences to keep them in their own consituencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 May 18 - 10:04 AM

Hidden away in the middle of the article from The Guardian:
A government spokesperson declined to comment on the paper on the grounds that it had not been published, and stipulated that as the document derived from the Northern Ireland executive it was “not a UK government policy document”.

She said: “Our policy is clear – we are committed to ensuring there is no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland and to ensuring the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland’s businesses to the whole of the UK’s internal market. We have set out our preferred customs models to enable trade to remain as frictionless as possible.”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 18 - 10:22 AM

You love analysing words carefully, Nigel. Let us know how the your highlighted words make the approach impossible if that green-channel analogue were in place. Bear in mind we are using slippy politician speak, not standard English.

I have serious doubts this approach will work, but it seems to have more potential than anything else being discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 18 - 03:27 AM

The highlighted section makes clear that your comment This is interesting: it looks like the 'border in the sea' is being seriously considered, would be clearer if it said "This is interesting: it looks like the 'border in the sea' is being seriously considered,by the Irish. "

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 18 - 06:20 AM

Saying "by the Irish" would have been misleading, because Ireland was not involved as far as I can tell.

However, I read your response as b3ing about the proposal. I hadn't appreciate your objection was to lack of clarity in how I expressed myself.

So what of the idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:26 AM

"What of the idea?"

I don't like it. It looks like an attempt to manoeuvre the whole of Ireland into being part of the EU. I prefer the view of the government spokeswoman which is shown in that same article (and quoted above):
She said: “Our policy is clear – we are committed to ensuring there is no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland and to ensuring the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland’s businesses to the whole of the UK’s internal market. We have set out our preferred customs models to enable trade to remain as frictionless as possible.”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:32 AM

That's interesting. The Northern Ireland Executive includes the First Minister who is DUP of course. I don't see them pushing for a united Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 18 - 07:45 AM

Neither do I, but I can see the hand of the EU pushing for something that might require a united Ireland, as a way of frustrating Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 18 - 11:12 AM

Oh dear,oh dear. Dissention within the Tory ranks.

Johnsons evaluation of Terasa May Customs plan is:

"that it is not "thats not taking back control of your trade policy, thats not taking back control of your law, it's not taking back control of your borders and it's not actually taking back control of your money either because tariffs would get paid centrally back to Brussels"

The next few days could be quite interesting!!

Any good news stories yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 18 - 11:28 AM

Don't get excited, Raggy - the Tory gutter-press will come up with some more lies about JC to distract the feeble-minded, more gullible members of the public, and the Bozo thing will be swept under the carpet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 18 - 11:33 AM

Oops, pressed the 'go' button too soon. Meant to say, 'Party Unity is Paramount', don'cha know?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 18 - 11:46 AM

I cannot ever recall a Foreign Secretary of any party describing his/her leaders plans as crazy. As far as I am aware it is unheard of.

The phrase "loose cannon" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 18 - 01:03 PM

Completely agree, Raggy.
The term 'Loose, looney cannon' comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 18 - 01:21 PM

"He has the full support of Number Ten" is the usual political speak for "He's doomed, any day now." We live in hope. Trouble is, the eejit thinks he's unsackable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 18 - 05:36 PM

Even worse, he may one day be PM!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 18 - 06:33 PM

Murky financial arrangements by the LeaveEU group it has been reported. Apparently they received #12 million pounds worth of "administrative" services prior to the referendum.

Could someone please provide a link to the Guardian article.

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 18 - 03:43 AM

Sorry, I've tried, but can't find that article from the information given.
Have you tried learning to do links?
If you can't (due to system restrictions) why not quote an exact headline to make it easier to search for?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 18 - 03:55 AM

Here you go, Raggy.

Arron Banks company provided £12m of services to Leave.EU

Nigel. I know that Raggy often posts using a tablet which, although not impossible, is difficult to do links on. I found the article from Raggy's description as the first link from one single Google search. Maybe you could try to learn how to use Google before offering other people advice on the web? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 18 - 06:32 AM

Dave, maybe you had a lucky guess as to what to search for. I tried a few options from his post before deciding I couldn't find it.

He may have problems with his tablet, but if he wants others to make links it would make sense if he did his best to make that easier for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 18 - 07:01 AM

I searched for "Leave EU 12 million Guardian" and there it was right at the top. No guesswork involved. Anyway, back to the issues.

If the USA are going to sanction countries trading with Iran, as has been declared by President Twittler, how will our super deals with the USA fare?

Looks like we are going to pull out of Europe, continue trading with Iran and strike up wonderful trans-Atlantic deals. And for my next trick...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 18 - 07:31 AM

So having found the link to the Leave.EU funding matter, what are your thoughts about it, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 18 - 08:16 AM

So having found the link to the Leave.EU funding matter, what are your thoughts about it, Nigel?
For once a fairly balance article. It makes clear that while this is being put about as dodgy payment, care has been taken to ensure it did not infringe the referendum guidelines.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 18 - 08:21 AM

If the USA are going to sanction countries trading with Iran, as has been declared by President Twittler, how will our super deals with the USA fare?
Obviously much better then to be part of EU, which is also going to continue trading with Iran, and thus also be unable to be sanctioned by the US :)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 May 18 - 08:27 AM

Hi Nigel, I can quite easily do links thank you, however it is not as easy on my tablet when sitting in a bar (with dodgy internet connections) on the West coast of Ireland listening to music and/or drinking.

But thank you for your kind consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 18 - 03:16 AM

To be precise Nigel, the article reports they claimed that they had taken steps to ensure they abided by the regulations. It looks as if not everyone thinks they succeeded.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 May 18 - 03:29 AM

DMcG:
You may be reading something into that article which isn't there, or I may be missing something in it.
It does not state anywhere that it is in relation to the 12 million mentioned in the earlier quote.
In fact, the earlier quote makes clear: But the disclosure, at a time when Electoral Commission investigations into leave campaign financing are continuing, will raise serious concerns about the ease with which laws restricting campaign spending can potentially be circumvented
So is the fine mentioned today in relation to the 12 million? or to the investigations in general?

The Commission has already been shown as ready to investigate any complaints about LeaveEU spending, while not investigating spending by the Remain team. And in response to the fine (from today's article):
Leave.EU co-founder Arron Banks called it a "politically motivated attack".
Responding to the Electoral Commission's findings, he said: "What a shambles, we will see them in court."

I think we should wait to see exactly how this plays out before anyone starts crowing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UKq
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 18 - 07:23 AM

I am not crowing, Nigel. Rather, it puts me in mind of Banquo's speech; "Thou hast is now: King, Cawdor, Glamis, all, As the Weird Women promis'd; and I fear, Thou play'dst most foully for't."

The vote was what it was. Even if it is shown that illegal acts were performed in getting us to this point, the fact remains this is where we are. We should punish anyone who acted illegally, but the negotiations carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 18 - 09:22 AM

Leave.EU campaign fined £70,000 for breaking election law

More to come as well.

Through its investigation, the watchdog said it had also uncovered “reasonable grounds to suspect” that Ms Bilney committed criminal offences and that she had been referred to the Met as a result.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 May 18 - 05:00 AM

Several posters over the past two years have highlighted the racism inherent in the Brexit vote. It would seem that they were correct all along and that "extreme views have gained ground in Britain since the vote"

We have seen some of those extreme views voiced on here.



Growth in Extreme Views

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 18 - 06:39 AM

We have seen some of those extreme views voiced on here.

No we have not.
That is a despicable slur on Mudcat members.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 May 18 - 08:44 AM

Several posters over the past two years have highlighted the racism inherent in the Brexit vote. It would seem that they were correct all along and that "extreme views have gained ground in Britain since the vote"
We have seen some of those extreme views voiced on here

Try:
"Several posters over the past two years have highlighted their belief that there was racism inherent in the Brexit vote."
Several posters have also clearly stated an abhorrence of racism, while still believing that Brexit is the correct path for the UK.

That the "UN special rapporteur on racism", someone tasked with investigating racism, should find racism is hardly surprising. If it is your job to seek racism you are likely to be able to find it in any society.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 18 - 10:11 AM

That there were people who voted for racist reasons is almost inevitable as a matter of statistics. It is a matter of mathematics not belief.

That does not imply anything about any specific person who voted leave. But I recommend reading up on Bayes Theorem, which is part of the reason I think it more accurate to say 'there were people who voted for racist reasons' than 'I believe there were ...'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 18 - 10:58 AM

OK DMcG, but are you aware of anyone here who has voiced extreme racist views as claimed by Rag?

Let us try to keep the debate reasoned and rational.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 May 18 - 12:03 PM

Hoops DMcG Hoops

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 May 18 - 12:04 PM

Extreme hoops even !!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 18 - 12:38 PM

I don't think discussion that will do much to keep the debate reasoned and rational, Keith. Nor would it be about "post Brexit life.". I would rather discuss the two proposals and the hunt for a compromise. And if, as I guess, the leavers here think the May proposal is "cretinous" what will they think of any proposed compromise that incorporates part of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 18 - 01:29 PM

Dave Mc. I am so disappointed that you will not say anything against Rag's disgusting slur against other contributors.

I think that you being clear about that WOULD do much to keep the debate reasoned and rational, but yes it would embarrass someone on your side of the debate.
Very disappointing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 18 - 01:48 PM

If it is your job to seek racism you are likely to be able to find it in any society.

You mean if someone is tasked to find antisemitism in one party they are likely to find it and it they do not look elsewhere they will not find it elsewhere?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 18 - 01:51 PM

Then I am afraid I will have to disappoint you. We are talking value judgements here: what one person sees as innocuous another sees as racist/antisemitic. I think the proper response is not to say "Of course I wasn't racist(or antisemitic)" but to ask oneself "What was it about what I said that made people think that?". And that is not aimed at you, Keith, but at every one of us, all the time.

Which is why I think it a matter for "examining one's own conscience" rather than public calling out. And why I will confine myself to matters in the public domain rather than those between posters here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 May 18 - 02:14 PM

DON'T. FEED. THE. TROLL.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 18 - 04:22 AM

We have seen some of those extreme (racist) views voiced on here.

No we have not.
That is a despicable slur on Mudcat members, and I for one am prepared to say that.

I also think that such insults get in the way of reasoned, rational debate, and has led to the decline in participation in these discussions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 18 - 04:26 AM

A mixed bag from the Observer today.
One very good article about certain Brexiteers and one with a very misleading headline: One million students join calls for vote on Brexit deal.

Sorry, but no. A fairly small number of people at the top of organisations representing one million students join that call. It is certainly not the case that all one million agree.   The first paragraph of the article is accurate: "Student organisations representing almost a million young people studying at UK universities and colleges are today joining forces to demand a referendum on any final Brexit deal, amid growing fears that leaving the EU will have a disastrous effect on their future prospects." The headline writer was way off course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 May 18 - 04:56 AM

Just a note gentlemen.

My comment of 12 MAY 05.00 am has been edited to include an additional word.

Deceitful and duplicitous and not at all untypical.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 May 18 - 10:37 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 13 May 18 - 04:56 AM
Just a note gentlemen.
My comment of 12 MAY 05.00 am has been edited to include an additional word.

What 'additional word' are you claiming has been added?
I only ask as, apart from the link at the end I have copy/pasted your exact wording less than 4 hours after you posted, and can see no difference between your original post, and what I quoted you as saying.
Or are you claiming that my post has also been edited?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 May 18 - 01:03 PM

Nigel, I really shouldn't have to do this, but my post read:

"We have seen some of those extreme views voiced on here."

It was then amended to read

"We have seen some of those extreme (racist) views voiced on here."

Deceitful, dishonest and duplicitous. Par for the course for the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 18 - 01:34 PM

Rag,
My comment of 12 MAY 05.00 am has been edited to include an additional word.

No it has not. The whole posts was quite clear that it was racism being described. The word "racist" was put in brackets, the conventional way to show that a word is added for context.

Do you stand by the claim in your post?
Do you claim it was some other "extreme views voiced" by contributors?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 May 18 - 01:38 PM

Hoops, Raggy, hoops.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 18 - 02:06 PM

No need for a response anyway, Raggy. It is well known that the trick of manipulating the words of others is just one of the tools of this deceitful, scheming individual. It has been demonstrated time and time again to the extent that even the moderation team have suggested just giving him a wide berth. Everyone knows it by now but to see it proven once more may convince more people to avoid any personal contact at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 May 18 - 07:28 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 13 May 18 - 01:03 PM
Nigel, I really shouldn't have to do this, but my post read:
"We have seen some of those extreme views voiced on here."
It was then amended to read
"We have seen some of those extreme (racist) views voiced on here."
Deceitful, dishonest and duplicitous. Par for the course for the troll.

Despite your claims, your post has NOT been amended. Someone may have misquoted it, but that does not affect what you originally said in your post. Anyone can look back at your post of 12 May 05:00 and see what you actually said.
My comment of 12 MAY 05.00 am has been edited to include an additional word.
If your post has been edited, it has obviously been changed back.
If your change has not been edited (only misquoted) I think you should retract your complaint!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 May 18 - 07:54 PM

Nigel, In the normal course of events if someone quotes from another poster they do so in full and without ad hoc additions or subtracts.

That is the accepted way, in normal discourse, to conduct these affairs.

By adding or subtracting words without clearly stating you have done so is deceitful, dishonest and duplicitous. Sadly that is what I am all to accustomed from certainly individuals.

To follow DtG's mantra ............ different language etc .....

You may have noticed I that have not directly responded to the individual in question for several months. I have no intention of doing so now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 May 18 - 03:36 AM

Different language indeed:
Just a note gentlemen.
My comment of 12 MAY 05.00 am has been edited to include an additional word.
Deceitful and duplicitous and not at all untypical.

"My comment has been edited" suggests that someone has 'edited' your post. This has clearly not happened, which you now seem to accept.
As to 'different language', mine is English.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 18 - 05:27 AM

Dave,
It is well known that the trick of manipulating the words of others is just one of the tools of this deceitful, scheming individual.

Nasty name calling and lies Dave. There was no deceit in my post. The only deceit was Rag's claim that extreme racist views have been posted here.

It has been demonstrated time and time again to the extent that even the moderation team have suggested just giving him a wide berth.

It has never been demonstrated at all Dave, and where have "the moderation team" given such a warning?

The dominant group here are pursuing a vendetta against me (hoops) for daring to challenge their extreme views with mainstream moderate ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:44 AM

I think it has been ably demonstrated that this topic would not assist any examination of life Post Brexit. Can I suggest we get back to that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 18 - 08:58 AM

DMcG, you should ask Rag to desist from making incendiary smears against other contributors.
Of course it provoked a response.

You appear to be criticising those who object to being smeared, while quietly condoning the provocation.

Subject: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 May 18 - 09:08 AM

I think it has been ably demonstrated that this topic can not provide any 'examination' of life Post Brexit.
All it can offer is dreams and aspirations (from Brexiteers)
or dire warnings and 'project fear' from remainers.

This thread was always going to take a long time to live up to its title.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 18 - 09:20 AM

I disagree Nigel, because the process of negotiation in itself defines the scope and opportunities of life Post Brexit so it is perfectly reasonable to discuss those on the period after the referendum vote up to, including and beyond the formal separation. Obviously we cannot discuss in detail and with precision what the situation will be in 20 years, say, but things we decide today influence it. And we can talk about those.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 May 18 - 09:35 AM

Interesting developments in the Commons today:

14:21
Lunchtime summary
A leader Conservative Brexiter, the MEP Daniel Hannan, has said that if MPs vote to keep the UK in the customs union, he would back a second Brexit referendum or a general election, to allow the public to have the final say. (See 1.16pm.) Generally Brexiters oppose a second referendum, and pressure for one is coming almost entirely from the remain camp, but Hannan’s words could be a sign that this may be starting to change.

This is an extract from the Guardians lunchtime summary,

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 May 18 - 09:44 AM

Another extract:

David Miliband gives his take on the Government’s position:

“We have no negotiating position on customs.
We have no negotiations position on regulatory oversight
We have no negotiating position on nuclear safeguards”
& 2 contradictory positions on Ireland

Which is much the same as many of us on Mudcat have been saying for over a year, just when is the Government going to show some leadership and start to clear up this debacle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 May 18 - 10:17 AM

Raggy, you're forgetting that 'Weer taking are cuntry back". We have 'dreams and aspirations' - no reason whatsoever to let facts spoil our guesswork and turn them into nightmares and regrets.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 18 - 12:19 PM

Nigel

Someone may have misquoted it

I guessed when you said you spoke English, you meant standard UK English. Is there some meaning of 'may' I am missing? There is no may about it. The misquote is there in black and white for all to see. What do you mean by they 'may' have misquoted it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 18 - 01:51 PM

Lunchtime summary
A leader Conservative Brexiter, the MEP Daniel Hannan, has said that if MPs vote to keep the UK in the customs union, he would back a second Brexit referendum or a general election, to allow the public to have the final say.

I think this is what is known in the trade as 'if the vote goes against you keep having another vote until you get the result you want.'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 03:44 AM

Yet more reports of on-going division within the Conservative party ranks with Teresa May attempting to exert some pressure on her MP's and not being kindly received by some.



Tory Dissent

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 May 18 - 03:53 AM

Dave: Is there some meaning of 'may' I am missing?
There may be. I believe that my usage of 'may' in this particular context was correct.
From The Macmillan dictionary
may . . . but: used when you agree that something is true, but you argue that this does not change the main fact that you are stating
The school may not be as good as it was, but it is still popular.


Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 18 - 03:58 AM

Allow me to beat you to it:
Different language, blah, blah, boring blah.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 18 - 03:59 AM

Christ on a bike.

No arguments about the issue so resort to syntax and obscure usage.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:09 AM

It's alright Dave, I would suggest they only bother about such things because they are unable to come up with any news reports that are favourable to Brexit.

No comment at all on my links of yesterday or today. I think that says it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:14 AM

From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 18 - 03:59 AM
Christ on a bike.
No arguments about the issue so resort to syntax and obscure usage.

Realise you're wrong, so come back with blasphemy?

Hardly obscure. I used the expression as standard English. I didn't go searching for some obscure usage just to confuse matters.
The fact that you didn't recognise the usage does not make it 'obscure'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:20 AM

Nigel, it is a simple fact that if you quote someone's post but add or subtract from it you have edited it. Very plain , very simple. My post was edited.

This is my final word on the subject, you can argue as much as you want but it will not alter the facts.

Now, anything positive to tell us about Brexit ...........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:42 AM

The fact that you didn't recognise the usage does not make it 'obscure'.

Yes it does. If we do not come across it in everyday usage, it is obscure. Besides you are trying to dodge this issue as well. May still indicates a possibility whereas there is no possibility that is was not a misquote.

As to 'blasphemy'. Well, really hitting rock bottom here. Relying on ancient laws put in place to protect mythical beings. You are really showing your true colours now. Keep it up :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:51 AM

Rag,
No comment at all on my links of yesterday or today. I think that says it all.

It says nothing Rag, except about you.
You put up quotes of Remainers. Presumably you are aware that Leavers also make statements that people could quote if they wanted to.

You alone think that putting up quotes is somehow contributing to debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:58 AM

Nigel, Iains have you found any positive news reports about Brexit yet ............... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 May 18 - 05:41 AM

Nigel, Iains have you found any positive news reports about Brexit yet ............... ?

Yes, but as Brexit has not yet occurred it is pointless posting them here as they are not yet fait accompli.
Unlike all the doom and gloom promised by the remain camp which they assume will happen, despite having the pre-referendum 'project fear' lines conclusively disproved.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 05:47 AM

Go on, give us a clue. I can honestly say I have not seen one news report that has said anything positive about Brexit in a broad selection of press and media coverage both here, or in Ireland.

Actually, that's not strictly true. Some of the Irish media, and Government officials, have been rubbing their hand with the prospect of Banking and Financial Institutions relocating some of their operations there. Great news for Ireland but not for the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 May 18 - 05:55 AM

Go on, give us a clue. I can honestly say I have not seen one news report that has said anything positive about Brexit in a broad selection of press and media coverage both here, or in Ireland.

Actually, that's not strictly true. Some of the Irish media, and Government officials, have been rubbing their hand with the prospect of Banking and Financial Institutions relocating some of their operations there. Great news for Ireland but not for the UK.

An there, in a nutshell, we see the problem.
The remain side are happy to quote speculations as being news, and object that the Brexit side do not wish to do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 06:12 AM

That sounds distinctly like someone saying I cannot provide even one item that supports my belief that Brexit is a good thing.

In other words it's a cop out.

As some of my teachers used to write on my reports "Could do better"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 18 - 06:16 AM

The news is in the forecasts that predict economic problems for the UK after brexit. We know they are predictions and accept that they may not come to pass.

Feel free to post any forecasts that predict that things will be economically better. Please! We are just looking for anything positive and as yet failing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 18 - 06:19 AM

I for one am quite happy to hear speculative news from the Brexit side as long as it is definite enough to be testable. "Company XYZ had confirmed all speculation they will move is unfounded. "We are committed to our base being in the UK whatever the final Brexit deal" said CEO Joe Bloggs" would be a perfectly acceptable quote in my book. Vague untestable things like "having control" are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 May 18 - 06:57 AM

New London HQ for Deutsche bank
Due for completion 2021.

Airbus to remain in UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 18 - 07:02 AM

Precisely, Nigel. You can do it if you try! Much more relevant than talking about grammar.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 07:12 AM

The location of the new office of Deutsche Bank in central London is potentially good news.

However, I do question whether this is at all related to Brexit. I also question were the all the profits will go, probably back to Germany.

The news that Airbus will remain in the UK is also good, however that again is not a gain due to Brexit it merely indicated that we haven't lost that work.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 18 - 07:18 AM

I'm not so strict, Raggy. News that things won't get worse (the Airbus case) I still count as good news. Of course, it would be better if it was a company moving here because they thought Brexit brought benefits, but I still accept the 'not getting worse'as good news, given where we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 07:33 AM

True DMcG, but with the Airbus case in particular we haven't gained anything, the good news is just that we haven't lost it. Not quite the same thing. The same good news could potentially be said of a myriad of other business concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 10:04 AM

Rees-Mogg isn't really helping the Tory party at the moment is he. At a time when their divides are all too apparent someone sticking an oar in is the last thing they want.

Rees-Mogg


Daily Telegraph report

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 May 18 - 03:54 AM

It may be the last thing they want. It might also be something they need.
A reminder that if a negotiated exit isn't achieved we have said (by issuing article 50) that we are leaving.

It might stir the Conservative Party to get its act together. It might also remind the EU of the basic facts, the 2 year extension, and the separation payment are reliant on us getting a negotiated settlement acceptable to both parties.

It is slowly getting to the stage where "No deal is better than a bad deal" might be replaced with "No deal is better than most of the deals which have so far been offered".

It might also be that both parties are working on the basis that agreeing everything too early makes them look too eager, and if they can get agreement early on in the negotiations they have been too soft in their requirements.
It should have been clear early on that once you set a completion date for negotiations, negotiations are likely to take that time. A version of Parkinson's law may apply.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:59 AM

Some of us have been sceptical about future trade deals, especially with the USA. Former Labour Minister Ed Balls has co-authored a report by Harvard University which he discussed on the BBC Today programme:

This is what Ed Balls, the former shadow chancellor, told the Today programme about the Harvard report he has co-authored (see 9.25am) saying the UK would not benefit from a post-Brexit trade deal with the US.

"We’ve talked to many people on the record, but of course the senior negotiators at the USTR [US trade representative], the trade negotiator in America, in the Brexit department here, are more cautious about being on the record. But they were very clear with us that, first of all, the chances of doing a deal quickly are very low. Secondly, if we are outside the EU, our power to negotiate with the US is much lower. But also the kind of things that America would want, in terms of tariff reductions and changes in regulation, would be extremely difficult for British business and consumers to deal with. And the general view was, actually, it’s not really going to happen.

So if the idea is you leave the customs union and get the free trade agreement and that will be better, our conclusion is that is a complete fantasy."

Yet another blow for the Brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:06 AM

Does everyone agree with his conclusion Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 May 18 - 05:17 AM

UK must not enter into any deals whatsoever with the US unless the US
(1) Removes Trump
(2) Conforms to all EU food, safety and other manufacturing standards
(3) The UK has an equal say in US policy as per our current arrangements with the EU, including the power to veto US legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 May 18 - 08:13 AM

And before anyone rightly points out that the three won't happen, and the government would go ahead with a pointless trade deal anyway, the points I am raising reflect my own standpoint.

(1) The UK should not be entering into any deals with countries led by the likes of Trump. Indeed collapsing the UK economy would be a price worth paying compared with being seen to endorse endorse Trump or recognise that nasty piece of work's authority in any way.
(2) In terms of how we trade with Europe we have an equal say in single market and customs union policy - by virtue of the European Council and the European Parliament. If anyone outside the EU wants to enter a trade deal with UK, we must have the same representation rights within those countries that we have with the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 May 18 - 08:58 AM

(2) In terms of how we trade with Europe we have an equal say in single market and customs union policy - by virtue of the European Council and the European Parliament. If anyone outside the EU wants to enter a trade deal with UK, we must have the same representation rights within those countries that we have with the EU.
So are you suggesting we would expect 1 to 1 representation in trading with US? Or 1 to 27 (as we have with EU)? or even 1 to 50 (If our representation is as a single state amongst many)?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 18 - 09:42 AM

Trump is America's traitorous Edward the 8th.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 May 18 - 01:29 PM

I am not sure what point you are making there, Nigel. I have a 'trading relationship' with Amazon.com. In some ways it can legitimately thought of as 1:1 - I am free to decide if I want a product, whether to buy it from them, and what price I am prepared to pay. On the other hand if you were to compare our sizes in terms of budget or personnel, I don't think I am revealing too much to say my resources are somewhat less than Amazon's.

So I don't understand why the ratio you refer to is relevant: it can even be several different ones simultaneously as in my example above.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 May 18 - 03:33 AM

DMcG: In your example you're talking about having equality in whether or not to trade. SPB was talking about having equality in setting USAs trade policies. We do note have a 1:1 equal say in EU policies, it is not either what we want, or what the EU wants. it is a 1:27 (with various weightings applied) relationship, in view of the number of parties involved in making the policies.
I was asking whether, if we emulate our control on EU policies in setting up trade with USA would it be a 1:1 relationship? or (as with EU where every state gets a say) a 1:50 relationship? which is very little influence at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 May 18 - 04:10 AM

The relationship wouldn't be as simple as decided upon a 1:1 or 1:51 vote, as the EU democratic structure allows for veto to facilitate consensus decision making, and as US would have it's own unilateral trade agreements and opposed to a single common trade agreement, things would get particularly messy for Trump, as he would have to drop 'America First', and even if agreement was reached on trade standards, it is unlikley that Trump would allow UK any say on social policy, environment policy etc which are enshrined in EU treaties.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 18 - 03:40 PM

So it seems the cabinet has agreed a backstop for the Irish border. Quoting the BBC website:

======
Brexiteers fear the proposal amounts to staying in the customs union longer.

But No 10 insists this is not the case - saying the UK would still be able to sign and implement trade deals, and the measure would only last for a matter of months

======

Madness. The EU wants no hard border. Who imagines a proposal that "Will only last for a matter of months" is going to be acceptable?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 18 - 04:51 AM

Madness. The EU wants no hard border.

They keep threatening one, not UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 04:57 AM

The EU wants a border (hard or otherwise) to preserve their high, protectionist, import tariffs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 05:48 AM

The EU is not changing its rules. All major trading blocs have tariff arrangements and customs controls. You can't expect the EU to bend its rules on account of one dissident country out of 28. This mess is totally our fault. Or, to be more precise, David Cameron's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 May 18 - 06:09 AM

Lest we forget, the tariffs are the least of the issues. It is ensuring agreed regulatory standards are being met that is the harder matter to address.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 06:45 AM

The EU is not changing its rules. All major trading blocs have tariff arrangements and customs controls. You can't expect the EU to bend its rules on account of one dissident country out of 28.

Fair enough. That is why the EU wish to impose a border. But one of their continuing members, the Republic of Ireland, does not want a border imposed.
UK has made it clear we will not be imposing a border.

How is this a UK problem. The EU are responsible for how they maintain their own borders (even if the Republic don't agree).
Why are the UK expected to sort it out?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 18 - 06:51 AM

How is this a UK problem.

A border is by definition between 2 areas. In this case the border is between the EU and the UK. It is not a problem of solely the UK or EU but a issue which needs to be resolved jointly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 May 18 - 06:55 AM

The fact that the UK government is battling within cabinet and elsewhere about it is pretty strong evidence they accept it is a UK problem, at least in part.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 06:56 AM

It needs to be resolved jointly, so that both parties are in agreement, but if only one of the parties wants a border surely they have a greater responsibility in putting forward their recommendations for how it will work. At present it seems the EU want the UK to put forward all the suggestions, just for them to dismiss them as unworkable.
The EU want the border, let's see them come up with recommendations which we can review.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 May 18 - 07:11 AM

Neither party wants a border. It says so quite clearly in every paper issued so far. However the EU is trying to ensure that the UK takes no action that necessitates one, which is why the existence of a hard border is primarily in the UK's hands, whoever has to build it in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 08:02 AM

There was absolutely no border issue until Cameron called and lost a extremely ill-advised referendum. The issue of the border was once hundred percent instigated by the UK. Border arrangements between nations and large trading blocs can't be mucked about with just because one country decides it wants to change things. There are plenty of countries watching to make sure that the UK, the country causing all the problems lest we forget, doesn't get advantages that they can't have apropos of border arrangements. If you think that the EU is being awkward about this, it's worth remembering that we have decided to be quite a small country that's cutting itself adrift. You ain't seen nuthin' yet. Just wait and see how awkward it's going to be making trade deals with the world's protectionist giants once we're out. They're not sitting out there waiting to do us any favours either.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 18 - 08:25 AM

Hard border is an EU tactic to stop Brexit.
It is an impossibility anyway. There are about 200 crossing points.

If the EU thinks it needs one it will have to make Eire provide it.
Good luck to them with that.
They will also have to provide security. Whatever they pay them will not be enough.

If no hard border is created, the worse that could happen would be a bit of smuggling. Just invest the money in extra policing instead of building 200 Alamos.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 May 18 - 09:21 AM

It might just be "a bit of smuggling", but it is more likely to be something like the horse meat scandal, but many times larger (because of greater incentives arising from different prices and regulations), and covering many more products. We are vulnerable to such things even within the EU because of the lack of internal checks, even when the regulations are common. If they differ, the incentive for "a bit of smuggling" is much higher.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 09:30 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 08:02 AM
There was absolutely no border issue until Cameron called and lost a extremely ill-advised referendum.
The referendum was not 'ill-advised' it was something which a large percentage of the population wanted, and the Labour Party had previously promised, but failed to deliver.

The issue of the border was once hundred percent instigated by the UK.
Presumably means 'one hundred percent'. A pointless addition anyway. If it was instigated by any one party, then it was 100% instigated.

Border arrangements between nations and large trading blocs can't be mucked about with just because one country decides it wants to change things. There are plenty of countries watching to make sure that the UK, the country causing all the problems lest we forget, doesn't get advantages that they can't have apropos of border arrangements. I'm sure I recall our resident school teacher pointing out that "apropos of" is an invalid construction. Apropos means "with regard to; in respect of " adding 'of' after apropos is a tautology.

If you think that the EU is being awkward about this, it's worth remembering that we have decided to be quite a small country that's cutting itself adrift. We have a decision about the size of our country? I thought only the Dutch managed to do anything about that issue.

You ain't seen nuthin' yet. Just wait and see how awkward it's going to be making trade deals with the world's protectionist giants once we're out. They're not sitting out there waiting to do us any favours either.
No, but they are looking forward to having our custom once they can do so without the protectionist tariffs raised by the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 18 - 09:41 AM

Good god, Nigel. Reading your posts is like untangling spaghetti with your nadgers in a vice.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 09:52 AM

As my post should make clear, I have the same problems with Steve Shaw's posts.

At least I don't post it all as a single paragraph 'stream of consciousness' post. I make clear (by italics) what sections are quotes, and keep my comments with the related sections of the quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 18 - 09:58 AM

That doesn't make it any easier on the old crown jewels...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 18 - 10:12 AM

When four points out of a five point post are nothing more than criticisms of another poster's use of English, and the fifth point is just a finger-in-the-air guess at something that he hopes might happen but might well not, the guy making that post really doesn't have much of worth to say, don'cha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 18 - 10:20 AM

Yeabut we are takin are cuntry back...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 10:22 AM

"The referendum was not 'ill-advised' it was something which a large percentage of the population wanted, and the Labour Party had previously promised, but failed to deliver"

Non sequitur. I'm sure that a large percentage of tbe population would be delighted if the government were to hand out twenty grand per person, but such a move would be ill-advised.

"A pointless addition anyway. If it was instigated by any one party, then it was 100% instigated."

It's perfectly valid to add that construction for emphasis. I'll put it in capitals next time, like Bruce, if you like.

"Apropos means "with regard to; in respect of " adding 'of' after apropos is a tautology."

You'll struggle to find a dictionary that gives examples of usage that doesn't include an example using "apropos of." It's a perfectly good construction. In fact, "of" is usually required. Oh, and by the way, Nigel, that last bit of yours that I quoted there is far from being a good construction. In fact, it's illiterate. :-)

"We have a decision about the size of our country? I thought only the Dutch managed to do anything about that issue."

Very silly, Nigel. The sentence made perfect sense.


You know how I relish these little grammatical skirmishes, Nigel. You'd be well-advised to pick your battles a little more carefully - and check your facts before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 10:44 AM

"Apropos means "with regard to; in respect of " adding 'of' after apropos is a tautology."

You'll struggle to find a dictionary that gives examples of usage that doesn't include an example using "apropos of." It's a perfectly good construction. In fact, "of" is usually required. Oh, and by the way, Nigel, that last bit of yours that I quoted there is far from being a good construction. In fact, it's illiterate. :-)

Another Shaw tactic, claiming a sentence is illiterate without giving a reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:09 AM

No probs, Nigel. Happy to oblige. Yertis agan:

Apropos means "with regard to; in respect of " adding 'of' after apropos is a tautology.

There are two sentences there but you haven't punctuated them at all properly. One just runs into the other, a basic grammatical blunder. To keep your wording, this is how it should read, I'd suggest:

Apropos means "with regard to; in respect of." Adding "of" after apropos is a tautology.

Or a semicolon might have done it after "in respect of," I suppose. Thing is, Nigel, your version is all over the place, not just in the way I've indicated but also apropos of your somewhat cavalier approach to the use of single and double speech marks. One of the "doubles" is actually floating in mid-air. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:10 AM

"Agan"? Oh, reading specs, where have I put thee?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:18 AM

My lack of reading specs also made me fail to spot that your speech marks were all doubles after all. Sorry about that bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:20 AM

Argh, no they weren't - that was my version! You're just as bad as I thought you were after all!


Nurse...!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:22 AM

The would be 'referendum' under the last labour government was with regards to adopting the proposed EU consitution, which would have required ratification by popular referendum of all EU member states.

As, by May And June 2005 the constitution was reject by Netherlands and France, the whole ratification process was brought to an end. To stil go ahead with the referendum would have been a pointless waste of money as by that point the result wou;ld have bean irrelavant. It would be like holding a referendum tomorrow on the 2010 Equalities Act which is already law. Labour has not promised at in-out referendum since 1975.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:28 AM

Well there you go.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 May 18 - 11:45 AM

As, by May And June 2005 the constitution was reject by Netherlands and France, the whole ratification process was brought to an end. To stil go ahead with the referendum would have been a pointless waste of money as by that point the result wou;ld have bean irrelavant.
Labour (Blair, Brown, and their manifesto) promised a referendum on the 'constitution'. The constitution was voted down by other countries, and re-introduced as a revised treaty. Labour signed up to that as it wasn't the 'constitution' that they had promised a referendum, although it had most, if not all, of the same effects.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 18 - 12:05 PM

Anyway, promises, promises...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 18 - 12:50 PM

SPB, Labour and Lib Dems all supported having the 2016 referendum too.
They both promised it in their manifestos.

DMcG, the horsemeat scandal started in Eire and spread to 13 EU countries. It is irrelevant to the issue of the border, except it might have been harder to get the bad meat into Britain if we were outside EU.

There is nothing to stop such crime occurring now so Brexit will not make it any more likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 18 - 01:46 PM

"Yeabut we are takin are cuntry back..."

Hey, that's my line... :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 May 18 - 02:08 PM


There is nothing to stop such crime occurring now so Brexit will not make it any more likely.

That doesn't follow in the slightest. The opportunities and the rewards have both chang3d, which make it more likely.

The horse meat scandal was due to the criminals concerned exploiting the lack of checks between origin and destination. The relevance to an open border is obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 18 - 05:12 AM

The relevance to an open border is obvious.

How?
We have an open border now. If Eire/EU close the border how will that increase the risk?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 18 - 06:18 AM

I really don't want to get into to this 'hoops' business but you really make it difficult not to, Keith. The existing border is between two countries with almost identical regulations. I cannot believe you do not see that if they have different regulations the situation is different.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 May 18 - 06:41 AM

It's quite easy to avoid the hoops DMcG, Just ignore the inanity of the posts.

Both you and I understand the differences that may occur post brexit, I may be inclined to explain it to another poster if it did not lead to an interminable round of unfounded and predominantly inane counter claims.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 18 - 07:05 AM

When will these little englander morons realise that the world (or Irreland0 is not going to fall flat on it's arse to acommodate Britain's stupidity and bigotry
The horsemet scandle dis not "start in Ireland" by the way - Ireland was the first to discover horse-meat is supermarket products and make them known
Feckin flag-wagging moron
"The 2013 horse meat scandal was a scandal in Europe in which foods advertised as containing beef were found to contain undeclared or improperly declared horse meat – as much as 100% of the meat content in some cases.[1] A smaller number of products also contained other undeclared meats, such as pork.[2] The issue came to light on 15 January 2013, when it was reported that horse DNA had been discovered in frozen beefburgers sold in several Irish and British supermarkets.[3]"
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 18 - 08:42 AM

I should have been clearer, Raggy. I meant I did not want to get into ignoring people, but that that it is being made very difficult to do otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 18 - 09:54 AM

DMcG,
I cannot believe you do not see that if they have different regulations the situation is different.

The criminals who supply illegal foodstuff do not adhere to regulations.
They had no problem moving the stuff through EU soft internal borders.
That is not how they were uncovered.

If we keep a soft border, there is no difference.
If EU imposes a hard border, it will still make no difference because the border posts will not carry out checks on the actual food, just the paperwork.

The border is utterly irrelevant to that crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 18 - 11:13 AM

Sorry, Keith, but that is it for the moment. No one imagined the criminals abide by the regulations. The point I have been making along is that they exploit the difference.

So I am afraid until you start listening I will have to join the ignorers. But I will talk again, whether I agree with you or not, when show some attempt to understand other people's remarks. There is no requirement to agree with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 18 - 11:26 AM

The point I have been making along is that they exploit the difference.

There will not be significant differences on food regulations when we leave.
We already import food from outside EU, where there are big differences, without problems.

We have a food inspection regime which looks at food regardless of its origin, but not at the borders. You have raised an issue which has not bearing on borders or Brexit.
It had nothing to do with membership of EU or border controls.

Wiki,
"In the UK, a House of Commons Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs report on the horse meat incident was not critical of UK or Irish producers. It expressed concern that horsemeat contamination was the result of fraud and other criminal activity across the EU. Chair of the Committee Anne McIntosh MP said: “The evidence suggests a complex network of companies trading in and mislabeling beef or beef products which is fraudulent and illegal.”[10][11]
The second major UK report on the horse meat incident was conducted by Professor Chris Elliott, the Director of the Institute for Global Food Security at Queen's University Belfast. In his independent report he argues that food crime was at the heart of the horse meat incident: and made a range of suggestions for how this could be tackled. “Industry, government and enforcement agencies should, as a precautionary principle, always put the needs of consumers above all other considerations, and this means giving food safety and food crime prevention – i.e. the deterrence of dishonest behavior – absolute priority over other objectives."

Nothing to do with membership of EU or border controls.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 18 - 11:27 AM

Can we assume that you are not going to withdraw the claim that |Oreland was not the source of the horse-meat scandal
Rhetorical question - 'course you're ****** not
Feckin Little Engenders - who'd have 'em ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 18 - 11:28 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal#UK_Investigations

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 18 - 11:37 AM

Jim,
Can we assume that you are not going to withdraw the claim that |Oreland was not the source of the horse-meat scandal

I did not claim that it was or was not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 May 18 - 12:00 PM

O ..................O..........................O .............!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 18 - 12:14 PM

Yes Rag.
He meant Ireland not Oreland.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 18 - 12:39 PM

Course you didn't Keith - somebody else wrote "the horsemeat scandal started in Eire and spread to 13 EU"
Or that "started" and "the source" doesn't mean the same thing maybe
Or maybe you only said it because "an expert" told you it was true !!!
Why else would you link the horse-meat scandal to the border

Ireland will, quire rightly, veto any Brexit deal that involves a closed border and Fosters Fanatics will not sign up to anything that involves a border between the Six Counties and the Mainland
Add to all this the revolt of the Rednecks in the Tory party who won't agree to sfa
What a bleedin' mess eh - like watching cage-fighting
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 18 - 12:45 PM

Jim - write out 100 times, 'I will not feed the troll'. Hand it in to me in the morning, or you'll be in Friday Detention.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 18 - 01:12 PM

"or you'll be in Friday Detention."
See you there baccy
I still get a buzz humiliating the twat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 18 - 01:20 PM

Jim,
"2012.11.30. The burgers came from 6 plants in Ireland and 3 plants in the UK. The products which tested positive for equine DNA came from 2 plants in Ireland and one in the UK.
2012-12-07 Irish authorities become aware of the adulteration in ABP Food Group burgers with 29% horse meat content"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal#UK_Investigations



That was the first finding of contaminated beef products. Soon it was found from elsewhere in EU

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 May 18 - 01:21 PM

Rest assured Jim, the O ............ O.............. "s were nowt to do with thee!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 18 - 01:24 PM

Do we need to call each other names like "moron" and "twat" Jim?
Why do you find it so hard to just discuss the issues without getting personal and abusive?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 18 - 03:13 PM

When the situation calls for them Keith - in your case they are quite often inadequate
"The burgers came from 6 plants in Ireland and 3 plants in the UK."
Nobody knows where the meat came from nor what it was and it predates the horsemeat scandal as far back is the MacDonalds "Scabby Kangaroo" affair which infected the whole planet
Take your racist shite somewhere else -
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 18 - 03:36 AM

Jim, the quote was from Wiki which provides sources for the statement.
Link provided (twice.)

When the situation calls for them Keith

The situation in a discussion like this never calls for name calling and abuse.

Decent folks who disagree with you and your group are deterred from contributing because they do not want to be subjected to it.
That is how your group have come to dominate debate here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 18 - 04:12 AM

THE STALEMATE THAT IS BREXIT

Keith
It really is time you got to grips with your racial inferiority complex and stopped using this forum as a hate platform
Save your hatred of the Irish for the 'Glorious Twelfth' - only two months to go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 May 18 - 04:25 AM

Just done a quick search that it can take 5 days or more for parcels from outside EU to be delivered,and they can be subject to customs duty.

Therefore, in my view, and as tory voters are selfish gits, it won't happens:

(1) Aggregate duties levied on goods orginating, including goods, services and supply-chain components, be charged through an increas ein the higher rate of income tax

(2) That an automoatic compensation scheme be set up for each hour goods are held up in customs checks, again paid for by increasing higher rate income tax.

(3) If customs checks are required for EU goods, that they take absolute priorirty, and no goods from outside EU are cleared through customs until everything from EU has been processed, even if it means the delivery takes months/years

Anyway, this is just my personal rant, because our government are to incompetent to gauranatee that leaving will have a zero impact on decent peoples lives and livelihood.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 May 18 - 04:37 AM

Still applying the term racist indiscriminately I see. Trying to close yet another thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 18 - 04:54 AM

Jim, just more name calling and personal abuse.
Nothing on the issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 May 18 - 05:22 AM

Very interesting link in your last post Jim, the one to the Irish Times.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 May 18 - 05:35 AM

I should add that since the article was published, some six months ago, little if any progress has been made.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 18 - 05:44 AM

"Still applying the term racist indiscriminately I see. "
Racism is what it is - cultural and racial hatred - it has no place on a debating forum and when it appears I have no hesitation in raising the issue
The world is fucked up enough as it is without letting this evil philosophy pollute a place where people are actually talking to each other
Racism is certainly a part of any discussion on Brexit - it's what persuaded enough people to indulge in that unbelievable act of SELF-HARM
Now our tame Eireophobe spreads extends it to here
Enough really is enough
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 18 - 05:57 AM

Agreed, Raggytash. That article sets out clearly the issues. As you say it is six months or so old, but the problems were the same before the referendum vote and are still the same today, as long as you rephrase the last one as "defer taking a decision in the hope some bright idea strikes you eventually."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 May 18 - 06:04 AM

Very true DMcG, sadly after almost two years no-one in the UK Government has arrived at one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 18 - 06:32 AM

The theory in Ireland at present is that Britain will ram-raid its way out of Europe leaving devastation in its wake
Doesn't leave much hope for the Peace Process and relations with the rest of the world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 May 18 - 07:10 AM

BREXIT, GOOD NEWS !!!!!


Good News

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 May 18 - 07:10 AM

BREXIT, GOOD NEWS !!!!!


Good News

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 18 - 08:02 AM

RE Jim's Irish Times piece, no real objection was made to solution 4.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 May 18 - 03:30 AM

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 18 - 05:44 AM

"Still applying the term racist indiscriminately I see. "
Racism is what it is - cultural and racial hatred - it has no place on a debating forum and when it appears I have no hesitation in raising the issue
The world is fucked up enough as it is without letting this evil philosophy pollute a place where people are actually talking to each other
Racism is certainly a part of any discussion on Brexit - it's what persuaded enough people to indulge in that unbelievable act of SELF-HARM
Now our tame Eireophobe spreads extends it to here
Enough really is enough

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 18 - 07:05 AM

When will these little englander morons realise that the world (or Irreland0 is not going to fall flat on it's arse to acommodate Britain's stupidity and bigotry

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do I detect some double standards here?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 18 - 03:45 AM

I think the brexiteers undoubtedly have the moral highground and we won the referendum. Reality sticks in the craw of the remainers. We see the same puerile reaction as displayed by those that could not, and will not, accept that Trump won the Presidency. They have no sensible counter arguments so resort to insults and bigotry. A tactic merely to close threads. This is well evidenced by seeing the same old names cropping up in all the threads that the moderators get fed up with.

Time the old dogs learnt a few new tricks!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 18 - 03:58 AM

"I think the brexiteers undoubtedly have the moral highground and we won the referendum."

Well Iains, yes you did "win" the referendum, no question about that but moral highground?

How on earth do you justify that statement?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:03 AM

Just to give you a lead Iains, does the "moral highground" take into account the "victory" was achieved in part by the lies told, does it also take into account that the "victory" was also achieved in part on a racist ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:12 AM

It has been reported today that support for the Leave vote has fallen dramatically in Northern Ireland from 44% Leave to 31% Leave.


Leave support Northern Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:21 AM

As a rule of thumb, I would say claiming the moral high ground is itself evidence of the lack of a more substantial argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:22 AM

Three responses. Sadly no new tricks!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:29 AM

Something else for you to chew on Iains. Direct Foreign investment into the UK has dropped by 90% in the last year, ninety percent!

The blame for this has been laid firmly at the door of Brexit.


Dramatic fall in Investment

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:33 AM

It has been reported today that support for the Leave vote has fallen dramatically in Northern Ireland from 44% Leave to 31% Leave.


The obvious solution, and the one that most in mainland Britain would choose, is for NI to join with Eire in a united Ireland within EU.

It only requires a 1% majority vote. Why does Sinn Fein not seize this opportunity?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:39 AM

This is well evidenced by seeing the same old names cropping up in all the threads that the moderators get fed up with.

That is quite true, Iains, but do you include yourself and those that agree with you in that statement? Or is it, as usual, all the other parties fault and you have nothing to do with it? It takes two to tango and you need to ask yourself if your often belligerent attitude has anything to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:44 AM

If it was jointly voted upon by NI and ROI it would be achievable, but for it to be passed in NI alone something would have to be done about the number of unionists. Also there is the other issue that to allow one part of the UK to become part of ROI, without extending the same right to the rest of the UK would be discriminatory.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:53 AM

From Rag's piece,
"The prospect of a no-deal exit and a hard border would play to Sinn Féin’s political aims of a united Ireland, with 53% of Catholics in favour if this was the outcome of the Brexit negotiations."

SPB,
Also there is the other issue that to allow one part of the UK to become part of ROI, without extending the same right to the rest of the UK would be discriminatory.

No. It was agreed years ago that if the North voted by at least one percent to unite, it would happen. Other parts of the UK can vote for independence, but there is no other part showing any interest in joining Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:56 AM

The idea of a united Ireland is not crazy in itself, so I will respond to that one. It may well be that in the longer term that is the solution. But it would not do to underestimate the difficulties of getting there. To begin with, there was plenty of loyalist violence before, so there would be a significant risk to that breaking out again. Nor would it be just an EU problem. Loyalist bombs on the UK mainland would not be unthinkable.

Then there is the politics. May would not want to go done in history as the PM who dismantled the Union, (especially as head of the Conservative and Unionist party, remember). It would also incentivise Scottish independence. Jacob Rees Mogg has said Now Then Ireland is just as much part of the UK as Somerset, so he is not likely to be keen on your idea either.

Then Joe Public may not think about NI from one day to the next, but has a strong emotional attachment to "The United Kingdom': it is part of their fundamental identity.

Next add in all the international implications. To take a trivial cases I need to apply for some visas shortly. The rules those other countries have set talk about the UK. At the least, it will take some time for them to get around to changing that to individual countries, or what other revisions might be needed.

All in all, it sounds like the whole Brexit approach to me: let's go for something without thinking about the possibl3 consequences. It may be we believe the pain is worth it. All well and good, but let's have thought out the pain first before we a t.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:57 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:29 AM
Something else for you to chew on Iains. Direct Foreign investment into the UK has dropped by 90% in the last year, ninety percent!

You only give a partial quote from your source. The drop is compared with a bumper year in 2016.
It also appears to be a reduction in new investment. So the totals invested are rising more slowly.

The collapse in company registrations mirrors the reluctance of foreign companies to invest in the UK either by building new factories or buying UK businesses. OECD figures show that foreign direct investment into the UK tumbled in 2017 by 90% following a bumper year in 2016.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 18 - 05:00 AM

Autotext troubles again: Northern Ireland, of course, not Now Then Ireland. The other errors are a bit more tolerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 18 - 05:04 AM

Jacob Rees Mogg has said Now Then Ireland is just as much part of the UK as Somerset

That is a fact, but only until they get their 1% vote.

Then Joe Public may not think about NI from one day to the next, but has a strong emotional attachment to "The United Kingdom': it is part of their fundamental identity.

Rubbish. People on the mainland would be dancing in the streets if NI went.

But it would not do to underestimate the difficulties of getting there. To begin with, there was plenty of loyalist violence before, so there would be a significant risk to that breaking out again.

That would be an internal Irish problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 18 - 05:10 AM

I know I only gave a partial quote Nigel, that is why unlike some people I provided a link to the article.

Whichever way you cut it though, direct investment in the UK has still dropped by a dramatic amount.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 18 - 05:20 AM

Clearly responding to even a sensible comment from you, Keith is not to be advised. You did read the sentence immediately after the one you copied about violence, didn't you?

With regret, it looks like avoiding responding to you will need to be extended to include even your more reasonable comments for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 18 - 05:28 AM

"Do I detect some double standards here?"
You most certainly do not Nigel
"Little Englander" is a term that originated in England to describe a mindset - it even had its own sitcom
There are comparable descriptions of Irish, Scots Welsh.... that do9 the same - nothing todo with race
Now if I applied it to all English people you may have a point, THOUGH SOMETIMES....!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 18 - 05:37 AM

Well, I suppose you can CLAIM the moral high ground if you "win" a poll. Unfortunately for your case, that also kind of means that the moral high ground shifts from Tory to Labour to coalition to Tory/DUP when we have elections. Additionally, 38% of the electorate claiming the moral high ground on the basis of one yes-no question on a scrap of paper presented to a largely ignorant country? Really? Finally, can you demonstrate that you won the moral high ground after your "side" told the electorate the unvarnished truth about what brexit really means for the future of this country, and did not use any lies on buses or racist posters on billboards to make its case?

I have a feeling that there is no moral high ground here to be claimed. It's an illusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 May 18 - 05:51 AM

"I have a feeling that there is no moral high ground here to be claimed. It's an illusion."

Or, more accurately, a delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 18 - 05:56 AM

I'll not deny that, John. I was typing in the middle of a sneezing fit and me eyes went all blurry...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 18 - 06:17 AM

The collapse in company registrations mirrors the reluctance of foreign companies to invest in the UK either by building new factories or buying UK businesses. OECD figures show that foreign direct investment into the UK tumbled in 2017 by 90% following a bumper year in 2016!

Garbage as usual by remoaners! Just shows the danger of relying on the Gruniard.
The reality is

Foreign Direct Investment in the United Kingdom increased by 8667 GBP Million in the fourth quarter of 2017. Foreign Direct Investment in the United Kingdom averaged 12366.23 GBP Million from 1987 until 2017, reaching an all time high of 82539 GBP Million in the third quarter of 2005 and a record low of -44536 GBP Million in the second quarter of 2009.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 18 - 06:22 AM

From this morning's (London) Times
Jim Carroll

FEWER NORTHERN IRISH WOULD OPT FOR BREXIT IN NEW POLL, STUDY FINDS
Michael McHugh
Northern Ireland would vote more strongly to remain in the EU if there was another Brexit poll, a study has suggested.
A total of 69 per cent would favour Remain if there was another referendum compared with 56 per cent in the result two years ago, the UK in a Changing Europe project said.
Catholics were more likely to support a united Ireland if there was a “hard exit” in which the UK left the customs union and single market.
The Irish border is one of the most vexed questions facing negotiators who aim to strike a deal by autumn, before Britain’s withdrawal from the EU next year.
Brendan O’Leary, a professor of political science at the University of Pennsylvania who also holds a visiting position at Queen’s University Belfast, said: “Our results show that if there was another referendum people in Northern Ireland would vote more strongly to remain in the EU.
“The proportion wanting to Remain has risen since the 2016 referendum as more people have become aware of the possible costs and inconveniences of leaving the EU, as citizens and as employees or employers.”
The survey was carried out for the British Economic and Social Research Council, which is funding the UK in a Changing Europe project. The initiative aims to serve as an authoritative, non-partisan and impartial reference point for those looking for information, insights and analysis about UK-EU relations that stands aside from politics surrounding the debate.
The survey found that a total of 28 per cent of Catholics would vote for a united Ireland if the UK changed its mind and remained in the EU while 53 per cent of Catholics would vote for a united Ireland if there was a hard exit in which the UK left the customs union and single market. One in five Catholics found the possible use of cameras at the Irish border “almost impossible to accept” and nearly one in ten Catholics, 9 per cent, would support cameras being vandalised.
There were strong expectations that protests against checks at the Irish border or between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK would quickly become violent. There was also substantial support for a Brexit that would largely eliminate the need for any North-South or east-west border checks, namely for the UK as a whole to remain in the customs union and single market. A total of 61 per cent of the population favoured the UK as a whole remaining in the customs union and single market.
John Garry, a professor of political behaviour at Queen’s University, said: “We find Catholics and Protestants most prefer the option that would avoid the need for any new barriers on borders. Either in the Irish Sea or across Ireland. They want the UK as a whole to stay in the customs union and single market. However,-what may surprise people is the extent to which Catholics oppose all borders within these islands.”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 18 - 06:35 AM

At the moment Northern Ireland is part of the UK. As yet they have had no vote on a possible unification with the south. Therefore to highlight their hypothetical preferences is as ridiculous as mooting Surrey or Sussex for an Independant vote vis-à-vis remaining in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 18 - 06:36 AM

""The reality is"
The reality is that you have chosen the figures most convenient to your position and carefully omiteed to mention WHAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE
Little wonder you don't bother to link your claims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 18 - 06:42 AM

The reality is, Iains, is that the figures you are quoting are based on quarters and the original article was annual. I haven't found the corresponding annual figures, so I can't comment further than saying comparing results over different periods is a dangerous practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 18 - 06:44 AM

Thanks, Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 18 - 06:47 AM

"At the moment Northern Ireland is part of the UK."
A stupid statement and even more stupid to link it to an English County
Britain's minority Government is now relying on support from the Appalling DUP which is under siege over a public spending scandal, which stands to lose power due to the shift in population and is in direct opposition to any idea that there should be a border between the Six counties and mainland UK
The Peace Process has been placed in the balance over the border issue, so should Britain lose support of the North Brexit will co floating up the Swanee faster than Colonel Sanders Riverboat
What a belligerent Colonial-type attitude
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 18 - 06:49 AM

"What a belligerent Colonial-type attitude"

Run out of anything sensible to say so resort to bigotry and insult. A typical remainer. Thank you for giving substance to my previous post.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 18 - 10:56 AM

"I know I only gave a partial quote Nigel, that is why unlike some people I provided a link to the article."

Iains perhaps would be be kind enough to provide a source for your figures at 06.17AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 18 - 11:06 AM

Rag,
Iains perhaps would be be kind enough to provide a source for your figures at 06.17AM

Jim gave it at 06:36 AM.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 18 - 11:32 AM

"Run out of anything sensible to say so resort to bigotry and insult."
No bigorty - no insult, just a reply, which you have failed to offer
Nor have you attempted to explain your half truth about your unlinked figures (or why you didn't link them)
Brexit was sold to the public by sleight of hand such as that demonstrated by you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 18 - 12:00 PM

Jim,
or have you attempted to explain your half truth about your unlinked figures (or why you didn't link them)

YOU GAVE THE LINK JIM!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 18 - 12:06 PM

"YOU GAVE THE LINK JIM!"
Yes Keith - after Iains had omitted to do so and pasted a half-truth (by accident, of course)
Mind your own business
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 18 - 12:42 PM

From the BBC live site: a good one here.
=========
Government draws up plans to park lorries on M20 in event of post-Brexit customs delays at Dover
The Department for Transport has put out an interesting, Brexit-related ministerial statement today. It says that the government has drawn up plans to park lorries on one lane of the M20 in the event of there being “serious disruption to cross-Channel transport”.
The ministerial statement, which has been issued in the name of the transport minister Jesse Norman, does not specify what this “serious disruption” might be, and of course there have been serious hold-ups at Dover before, triggered by strike action on the French side, which led to the development of Operation Stack, an emergency procedure for parking lorries on the M20. But it does say the new system will be available “from early 2019” - which, conveniently, is when the UK will leave the EU and when a no deal Brexit (which the government wants to avoid, but cannot absolutely rule out) would cause customs chaos at the Channel ports.

======

It will interesting to see who thinks this is nothing to with Brexit, who thinks it is just a sensible preparation, who thinks both simultaneously, and who would rather not talk about it, thanks very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 18 - 01:10 PM

Here is the original source. You always say you prefer that DMcG.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/road-haulage-update-21-may-2018

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 18 - 01:19 PM

Jim, as I'm sure you realise I ignore all post from the troll.

I am grateful for your interjection but I would like to know for sure that Iains is using that particular article. You can gain a lot by knowing the precise source (which Iains should have given in the first instance)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 18 - 01:23 PM

"but I would like to know for sure that Iains is using that particular article."
Scan a line and google it - that's what comes up - simples

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 18 - 01:25 PM

but I would like to know for sure that Iains is using that particular article.

The first sentences appear in his post. You could read them!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 18 - 01:36 PM

Looks like you are trying your best to get this thread closed as well, Iains. Not going how you would like? I suppose you will be blaming others.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 18 - 03:29 PM

"You could read them!"
You are an eejit Keith
He named the company and selected the most favorable figure to his argument
He did not to likk to it and hoped nobody else would seek out the true position - just as you do (except, of course, you often bother to even do that)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:09 PM

"You can gain a lot by knowing the precise source (which Iains should have given in the first instance)"


But, but, but matey shaw has never knowingly given a link in 19620 posts. Do I detect any criticism directed to him. No of course not!
Birds of a feather, packrats and all that!


https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/foreign-direct-investment
Now if you go 2 lines below the bar chart you can see a box marked max.
Hit that and you can access graphical data from 1995 to near present.
You can see since 2000 the graph has jumped all over the place so taking short time periods and trying to determine a trend is rather pointless
Rather like the gnomes last pathetic little jibe.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:27 PM

Why bring Steve Shaw into the equation?

It is not him I'm discussing this matter with, it is yourself.

If you are confident of your sources you should be able to link to them so that the other people can ensure that the words you have quoted are not merely "cherry picked".

It has been known to happen!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:38 PM

Raggytash you know perfectly well why Shaw was brought into the equation. He boasts he cannot do links and you say nothing. Yet you chastise me for omitting a link(a rare occurrence for me) I think your little mates resort to cherry picking ,not I. I prefer to let the facts stand for themselves. I know you hang on Shaw;s shirt tails but it is embarrassing that you make it so obvious. Shame on you!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:42 PM

Absolute bollocks Iains.

If you are so unsure of your sources and their contents, and perhaps are afraid if other people reading them, then maybe you should be more careful in the ones you choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 18 - 05:35 PM

What on earth have you been imbibing? Even by your standards your latest offering is pathetic. Do you actually know how a valid argument is constructed?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 18 - 06:00 PM

Er, excuse me, please. Points I make here are supported by my own arguments, right or wrong. I often refer to sources I've used, not in blue links, but nonetheless referred to. Not only that, Iains, if I use a source at all I use it to support my argument and extensively refer to it. On a good number of occasions you have simply scattergunned links here without referring to them in your post at all, routinely from right-wing sources (your privilege, of course, but very noticeable nonetheless), and you've had it pointed out to you several times that your links actually undermine your own arguments, apparently demonstrating that you haven't really read them.

We all have our own ways of contributing to discussions on this forum. I prefer to give my own opinions, generally speaking, rather than rely on sources that I can't even be arsed to comment on. I'm not sure that you can say the same. Yiu and I have not fallen out for a good number of weeks. Your unforced and provocative reference to me in this thread appears to speak volumes about your inclination to moody instability. Pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 18 - 07:36 PM

Links are beside the point
You presented a figure desugned to mislead - pretty much as your Government works
My observation on your not linking it was just brown sauce on the chip butty and it was handy to use to put your tame parrot in its place.
Do you intend to qualify your dismissal of the Six Countries - you know the ones - the mob that stand between Maggie May-Fly and defeat in The House?

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 18 - 02:13 AM

I said it would be interesting to see who reacted how to the M20 plans. So far there is no comment here from the Brexit supporters (a link to the official statement is indeed welcome, but is not a comment upon it.)

In the media, both the Express and the Mail have described it as a consequence of Brexit.
The Guardian, naturally does so as well. My original post was from the BBC and also made the Brexit link, but I have not found a fuller article there or on the Independent.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 03:42 AM

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2017-10-25/debates/970D8709-C6B0-4A6D-8608-560CB7EB80A6/OperationStackLorryParkingInKent

You can gain a lot by knowing the precise source (which Iains should have given in the first instance

Howsabout HANSARD. NOW LOOK AT THE DATE!
You remoaners are a tad behind the curve on this one. Not for the first time either!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 18 - 03:42 AM

DMcG, the original source makes no reference or allusion to Brexit.
That was just a bit of spin put on by the BBC journalist.
I do not find it in any way relevant to our discussion.

I am away for a couple of days so if you want to ignore me again you will have to wait, unless you ignore this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 04:02 AM

" Your unforced and provocative reference to me in this thread appears to speak volumes about your inclination to moody instability. Pity."
Is this shaw the scientist, ex teacher, former union activist or bullshit artist making the diagnosis? Is the conclusion fact, or merely whimsy? We all need to know these things as your multiple personas create a considerable challenge for us to determine whether to interpret or simply ignore your multitudinous posts.
I suggest you take your cudgel up with raggedytash, he is the one insisting on links, as is jimmie with his asinine statement about cherrypicking. Some of you demand links, some of you think it beneath you(because you can't) A little consistency is needed, doncha think?

I can well understand why Keith loses his patience with you four mudrats.
When faced with logic you all counter attack by attempting to bully. I regard that as a major character defect y'all need to work on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 May 18 - 04:12 AM

Oh dear.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 04:36 AM

Indeed!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 18 - 04:36 AM

Yes, Iains, operation stack dates back several years. But the announcement being discussed was yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 18 - 04:53 AM

Is it the time of year, time of month or are your hemorrhoids playing up Iains?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 18 - 05:40 AM

"I can well understand why Keith loses his patience with you four mudrats."
Dou yoyu not see the utter stupidity of accusing people being bullying and insulting with a statement like this
Your little team is as abusing and bullying as anybody on this forum - your incessant stream of insults tends to make you the leader of the pack
It really is time you grew up and got a grip Iains
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 05:42 AM

Operation stack has been under continuous review since first introduced in 1987. Similar schemes are in existence for other major ports.
A coned contraflow system has been trialled on the 10.5 miles (16.9 km) section between Ashford and Maidstone, to relieve the pressure on the A20, but it was costly and slow to arrange, taking two days to set up and two days to remove. Highways England have announced a plan to use quick movable barriers to set up a contraflow so that two lanes can be maintained.
Use of Manston Airport
Use of part of the car park at Ebbsfleet International railway station to temporarily park/queue up to 1,000 lorries
In July 2016 the Department for Transport announced that a new lorry park for 3,600 vehicles was to be built to the north of junction 11 of the M20, with new access from the eastbound motorway between junctions 10 and 11 at Stanford West, with completion expected by Summer 2017. However, in November 2017 the Department announced that "environmental obligations" had delayed this option and, instead, a linear lorry park along the centre of the M20, separated by traffic barriers, was under consideration.
No mention of brexit in any of these considerations. To date French industrial action has created the biggest headache and displayed the inadequacy of the existing scheme, hence the search for better alternatives.
Similar schemes operate at Stranraer and Felixstowe. Surprisingly Immingham, the UK biggest port, appears to have no emergency parking scheme publicised.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 18 - 07:48 AM

It is certainly the government's claim that the timing of this is nothing to do with Brexit and the fact that the aim is to have it all ready by Brexit day could indeed be pure coincidence.

But those advocates for remain, the Daily Mail and the Express don't think so.

Whether that date is just coincidence or not, the government does intend to have plans in place to cope with any issues that arise in the initial days.

For my part, I think that is no bad thing. Better to be prepared and discover you don't need it, than to be unprepared.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 07:58 AM

The scheme has been under continuous review since first being introduced. Tagging brexit onto it is simply scaremongering. To date
French labour practises(or lack of them) have created major problems.
I have no doubt when Britain no longer contributes to the CAP then French farmers will block the tunnel with shiny, new, highly subsidised tractors that everyone else in Europe pays for! Then we will need a huge carpark ready.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 18 - 08:00 AM

Those of us on the Remain side of this discussion have for some time said that people in general were already worse off. This suggestion has now been ratified by Mark Carney, Governor of the Back of England.

"Mark Carney from the Bank of England has just confirmed that household incomes are now £900 lower than forecast just before the EU Referendum. Can't remember that being written on the side of that red bus!"

Extract from Todays Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 18 - 08:03 AM

A further extract:

"The Bank of England governor gave MPs a clear reminder of the cost of the 2016 EU referendum today, by warning that households are £900 worse off today than expected.

During his testimony to the Treasury Committee, Mark Carney explained that the UK economy is currently 1% smaller than expected two years ago. That’s despite the world economy, and particularly the eurozone, growing faster than forecast since then.

According to Carney, if you adjust for the stronger global economy and the UK government’s fiscal easing, the UK is actually around 1.75% smaller, perhaps even 2%, than you might expected today.

That has a real impact on families and individuals across the country.

As Carney puts it:

If you map it onto household incomes, real household incomes are about £900 lower than we forecast, which is a lot of money.

Some of this loss can clearly be ascribed to Brexit. Business investment has been up to 4% weaker than forecast -- as firms have been hit by uncertainty over Britain’s future trading relationships.

Households have suffered by the drop in real incomes (which turned negative last year), due to the plunge in sterling after the referendum. The weaker pound drove up inflation, meaning salaries and pensions didn’t go as far in the shops.

As Carney puts it:

“There are Brexit effects that come through”

But, the governor did also cite Britain’s ongoing productivity problems - partly due to weak investment, but also due to a series of wider issues that can’t be pinned on the Brexit vote.

In conclusion, Carney warned:

“In the short term, over the last year and a half, there has been an impact relative to what we would have expected, even with some pretty good tailwinds on the back of this economy.”"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 18 - 08:11 AM

Four Ulster Parties have come together and agreed that there should be no hard border and that Britain should remain in the Single Market
This means th DUP no longer has a majority - it seems Maggie May threw away the Billion bribe !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 08:34 AM

https://www.economicvoice.com/bank-of-england-research-finally-accepts-immigration-causes-lower-wages/

Old but still one in the eye for remoaners!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 08:44 AM

snigger, snigger!

https://order-order.com/2018/05/15/barniers-lost-space-galileo/
Now to help the more simple minded among us comment on the content, not the origin. Got it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 08:47 AM

and they just keep coming!

https://order-order.com/2018/04/20/uk-tech-investment-surges-115/
Same terms and conditions apply as above.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 18 - 09:03 AM

OK, so your first link is to the Economic Voice is basically a blog, your second and third links are to Guido Fawkes (again) another blog.

They do not inspire any degree of confidence.

Can you really not come up with anything better?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 May 18 - 09:15 AM

*Sigh* What did I tell you about Iains at six o'clock yesterday evening.... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 18 - 09:30 AM

You are nothing if not predictable Iains
You are presented with a major blow to Brexit - do you attempt to discuss it - do you ****
You scamper around like a rat sprinting away from the farmers wife and scoop up meaningless blogs
Guido Fawkes is an extremit mindless blogger (as can be judged by the quality of your blogs)
As far as immigration being linked to low wages - of course it is when both customers and employers happily use cheaper Labour to drive down wages - as old as immigration iyself
Until Britain adopts a an enforceable and realistic living wage policy to ensure that this is not allowed to happen it will continue to divide Britain
As human beings, we are morally obliged to accept refugees, especially from wars we have been part of causing - that has always been something Britain has been rightfully proud of in the past - now it has become a weapon in the hands of the extremist right
THIS IS THE ALTERNATIVE IF WE ABABDON OUR HISTORY
Your gleeful announcement only underlines the inhumanity of your position
Snigger away
Your dog-eat-dog world is nothing to be proud of
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 18 - 10:14 AM

Another potential blow to the UK post Brexit. The EU are to open talks regarding free trade with Australia and New Zealand in advance of any talks between the UK and these nations.

EU Talks

At present the EU, including the UK, have a trade with NZ of about $20 Billion (NZ). Post Brexit the UK will have about $4 Billion (NZ)

I can guess who will get the better deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 18 - 11:19 AM

This isn't going to help either
https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/irish-shipping-firms-plan-to-bypass-british-ports-with-direct-routes-to-europe-36782777.html
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 12:12 PM

Your link is mainly about mr hasbeen powell(never heard of him)
The existing shipping links between ireland and europe are totally inadequate to provide alternative routing avoiding the UK.

The reality is below. A problem the Irish need to address instead of idle threats.




https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/more-european-routes-needed-for-irish-ports-462063.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 18 - 12:25 PM

Chartering ships is an everyday process, relatively simple. Given that shipping companies already do so on a daily basis, chartering more ships will not be an obstacle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 01:05 PM

Chartering ships is an everyday process, relatively simple. Given that shipping companies already do so on a daily basis, chartering more ships will not be an obstacle.

Maybe maybe not.
Others see a degree of complexity involved. I would presume they would know considerably more about the problems than you. If chartering ro ro ships was a simple everyday occurrence they would not be flagging it as an issue.
Perhaps the irish need to study stacking. They may need to!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 18 - 01:14 PM

The article is not, particularly, raising chartering ships as an issue, as far as I can see. The problem is more the capacity of the ports to handle the ships.

That is a fairly straightforward investment decision, held up at the moment because the UK still can't decide what relationship with the EU it wants, so the EU does not want to make a major investment that may not be necessary. But if it becomes clear the investment is needed, it will happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 18 - 01:19 PM

Of course it may be an issue.

A the moment P&O, Stena and Irish Ferries run ships from Ireland to the UK, from Dublin, Rosslare and Larne to the UK. Irish Ferries run 8 ships to a day to the UK, Stena the same. (Irish Ferries also run 3 ships a day to France.)

Some of that freight then travels on the mainland Europe.

If Customs delay that traffic the hauliers will want alternative routes and the shipping companies will provide.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 18 - 01:21 PM

Come to think of it Irish Ferries are already one step ahead.

Their new ship the W B Yeats, due to come into service next year, has three kilometers of vehicle decking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 18 - 01:24 PM

I should have been clearer. Chartering may be necessary as well, but it did not seem to me to be the focus of the article. Certainly, if you want more routes you need more ships on them and they do have to come from somewhere. But as I say I saw the article as mainly being "even if you had the ships, the capacity is insufficient.'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 18 - 01:26 PM

... the port capacity...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 01:36 PM

Direct shipping between ireland and europe is miniscule at present.
Between Ireland and the UK there are 4 ports serving ireland (Belfast, Dublin, Rosslare and Cork) The destinations are Cairnryan, Liverpool, Holyhead, Fishguard, Pembroke and occasionally Roscoff and Santender.
Apart from the last two destinations there asre multiple sailings each day to and from Ireland to the UK. An appreciable component of the "cargo" comprises HGV's. The infrastructure at Cork and Rosslare is probably inadequate to cope with additional traffic should other ports no longer be used. These changes need to be happening now unless seamless cross border movements are agreed. Prevarication and bullheadedness will impact Ireland far more heavily.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 18 - 01:45 PM

"The reality is below. A problem the Irish need to address instead of idle threats."
Not idle threats
These ships are in service and have been welcomed by Europe as an alternative if Britain falls at the "border" fence, as it looks likely to
THeir potential has been fully covered on the Irish media
Wake up and smell the coffee
The world doesn't need Britain and Trump will go wherever it suits his election chances
No "SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP " any more
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 02:47 PM

Ireland is the one that needs the alternative routes, not the UK. Trying to frustrate brexit with meaningless threats achieves nothing. To replace all the UK bound ferries with alternatives needs infrastructure under construction now. Try a little homework before posting meaningless links. As in so many other things you pontificate on, you show a woeful lack of knowledge of the real issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 18 - 02:59 PM

It is repetition such as yours that achieves nothing Iains
Ireland doesn't need British ports to sell to Europe - But Britain needs an open door to
Try posting links and not giving halff- truths Iains
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 03:22 PM

I get more sense talking to a brick!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 18 - 03:25 PM

I see you never have the audacity to ask Shaw to post links! Why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 18 - 03:57 PM

Simple Iains, for much of the time Steve is on one side of the debate and you are on the other.

If you post something to support your particular argument it may be something I haven't already read (given some of your "sources" that's hardly surprising)

If you want to convince people having reliable, trustworthy sources can be paramount.

I'm afraid Guido Fawkes does not fall into this category.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 18 - 05:42 PM

EU rejects the latest 'backstop proposal on the grounds i they need a permanent backstop not a time limited one. As I said at the time it was announced, it was a self evident nonstarter.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 18 - 08:29 PM

"I get more sense talking to a brick!"
Why do you never address the points put to you directly ?
If you are not prepared to do so - why are you here other than to make these discussions a platform for your own ego?
"I see you never have the audacity to ask Shaw to post links! Why is that?"
Not sure who you are addressing here but I have never noticed Steve dredging the web for quotes from nutty bloggers like Guido Fawkes and Russian Billionaires - may have missed something
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 18 - 01:59 AM

What Guido made perfectly valid comments on concerning Galileo was a speech by Barnier on the 14th May. An extract below:
"One word on Galileo. There have recently been many press articles – and many misunderstandings.The UK decided unilaterally and autonomously to withdraw from the EU. This implies leaving its programmes as well.So, we need to put the cooperation on Galileo between the EU and the UK on a new basis.In doing so, our responsibility is to maintain the autonomy of the EU and to protect our essential security interests.The EU's rules on Galileo have been in place for a long time, and are well known to the UK.In particular, third countries (and their companies) cannot participate in the development of security sensitive matters, such as the manufacturing of PRS-security modules.Those rules were adopted together by unanimity with the UK as a member, and they have not changed. and a link to the full text below:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-18-3785_en.htm
My second link to   guido concerning hi tech investment in the uk in 2017 is supported by numerous reports:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-tech-sector-brexit-2017-investment-record-leave-eu-london-startups-a8143021.


http://www.londonandpartners.com/media-centre/press-releases/2017/20180105-2017-record-year-for-london-and-uk-tech-investment
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidprosser/2018/01/05/uk-breaks-tech-investment-records/#26c8ae2248b3

Now do I disparage the content of the happy clappy socialist rag the guardian? NO! I always presume the data presented is reasonably accurate. It is frequently the analysis I have a problem with.

Sadly many of those commenting here seem unable to separate the two.
They seem unable to check things for themselves. They like to make ridiculous statements on everything and anything and seem incapable of carrying out any sort of meaningful research. They bury theirheads in the sand if they do not like the messenger and cannot understand the message. Perhaps they should return to the nursery and play with coloured chalks all day.

It does get rather tiresome when it is the same two fools constantly harping on about the messenger and refusing to acknowledge the message, even though it can easily be verified. Maybe they still need spoonfeeding as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 18 - 03:01 AM

Still trying to get the thread closed down then, Iains?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 18 - 03:32 AM

The gnome has nothing to say as per usual. I do not know why you hang around and fester on this forum if you spend so much time saying nothing. Have you thought of taking up a hobby? other than constantly shit stirring!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 18 - 03:39 AM

Thought as much.

You are not really a morning person are you, Iains?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 18 - 04:29 AM

Dave, he acts like Mr Reasonable for a time and then, without goading or warning, goes off on one. To me, that seems medical. I'm adding him to me shortlist of those who must be cut loose, along with bobad, Keith and Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 18 - 05:19 AM

Suffering from a touch of whimsy mayhap? You really should stop this remote medical diagnosis shaw. Is quack medicine another of your dubious attributes?

The last couple of comments off the little gnome are merely provocative and inflammatory, adding nothing to the discussion/debate/farce.
Others call it trolling. You need to take your fellow mudrat in hand shaw.

Here is a little nugget to chew on concerning EU greening madness:
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/business/power-station-drax-aims-to-place-uk-at-front-of-green-energy-race-1-9172531
But the gruniard says:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jan/29/biofuels-are-not-the-green-alternative-to-fossil-fuels-they-are-sold-as

And of course to make the economic and ecological case for the project we close the coalmines next door and ship in biofuel from thousands of desecrated trees in the US.
Thats the EU for you.
Better out than in!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 18 - 05:28 AM

"Dave, he acts like Mr Reasonable for a time and then, without goading or warning, goes off on one. To me, that seems medical. I'm adding him to me shortlist of those who must be cut loose, along with bobad, Keith and Bruce."

Well at least we do actually get periods of reasonableness from Iains now, Steve. And, in truth, during those periods he becomes a perfectly likeable guy - his opinions differ from those of others here, but that's the nature of debate, and it's fine. It's certainly an improvement on his loutish behaviour when he was Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 18 - 05:39 AM

That's the worry, though, John. His periods of reasonableness suddenly end in spittle-flecked rants (did I really say that?) that are completely unforced. That kind of unpredictable behaviour swing has no place here. I'm cutting him out. He's an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 May 18 - 06:36 AM

Iains re your post at 05.19.

The first article relates to trials at Drax Power Station to produce carbon nuetral electricity the second relates primarily to bio fuels for vehicles.

Whilst both projects are interesting in their own right I fail to see the relevance to "Post Brexit life in the UK"

Yesterday I linked to several articles, directly related to the Brexit discussion. On no occasion did you address the points raised in those articles or on my comments about them.

I'm wondering if even you are now having doubts about the wisdom of leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 18 - 06:48 AM

The last couple of comments off the little gnome are merely provocative and inflammatory

Well, in the light of genuine provocative comments like "Perhaps they should return to the nursery and play with coloured chalks all day." or "I get more sense talking to a brick!" I think my assumption that you are trying to get the thread closed is quite reasonable, Iains.

But, yes, it does add nothing to the topic in question. Neither do yours though so I will do you a deal. You stop posting off topic insults and I will commenting on why you do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 18 - 06:59 AM

"On no occasion did you address the points raised"
He has addressed none of the points made other than to dismiss them as unimportant
Britain needs to negotiate with both the North and South of Ireland in order to make an orderly retreat from Europe - to barge its way out would leave behind a mess comparable to the worst Colonial withdrawals
Barnia has promised he will not sign Britain off without an agreement that guarantees an open border, The DUP has said that they will not consider a barrier between the Six Counties and mainland Britain
Neither the Tories or the DUP have working majorities in their respective Parliements
"What a fine mess you've got me into Stanley"
Address that Iains
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 18 - 10:10 AM

If there is no deal before brexit then Ireland has a major import export problem. As yet they have done zilch to alleviate this problem, in fact they are trying hard to stir things up. Do they want to restart the troubles? It certainly seems like it from my perspective. The only scheduled ro ro services to europe are to roscoff and santander. Neither location is suited for northern european trade, where the bulk of the action is. The EU either stops squabbling about a UK transit for Irish traffic or Ireland has to magic up some alternative regular scheduled routes to Europe. This needs to be done without impacting existing scheduled services. As I have said repeatedly it is an Irish problem, they need to negotiate a solution. They can threaten brexit all they like but how do they seriously think they can prevent it. They appear to have a negotiating position derived from swimming in Guiness for the last few months.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 May 18 - 10:25 AM

Could I remind you Iains that it is the UK who have upset the apple cart

We will all survive, it is not (hopefully) life threatening but as Mark Carney said yesterday real incomes are £900 per annum lower than what was expected, the UK Economy is at least 1.75% possibly 2% smaller than expected. Business Investment is 4% smaller than expected, and the weaker pound drove up inflation.

Not my words but the words of the Governor of the Bank of England.

Ireland may have to find alternative routes for their exports but compared to the problems we face it is a pinprick.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 18 - 10:27 AM

"You stop posting off topic insults and I will commenting on why you do it."

My comments result from the total inability of certain people here to work out that any data from any source is easily verified by a quick search. Therefore mocking the source of the article whether it be CNN, Al Jazeera, Gudo, Blacklisted news or monty python is surely a sign of inhibited brain function or as it is internationally known as mental retardation. In the UK it is bracketed under learning disability.

Now I have probably made this point about the source being irrelevant many times in the last couple of years, but the same tired old responses keep coming out. e.g. nutty bloggers like Guido Fawkes. You may well dispute his interpretation but any facts he presents can be verified, as I have above. Therefore shooting the messenger because you dislike the message is pure stupidity, because the facts still remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 18 - 10:41 AM

My comments result from the total inability of certain people here to work out that any data from any source is easily verified by a quick search.

"Perhaps they should return to the nursery and play with coloured chalks all day." and "I get more sense talking to a brick!" are not just comments though are they Iains? They are abusive insults that are likely to get the thread closed. Which is the point I was making.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 May 18 - 10:50 AM

That is why I keep recommending we link to the source data - like Hansard - whenever we can, not to anyone’s interpretation of the data, whether than is Guido, the Guardian, the Express or Joe Public in a tweet.



A link to any of those other things is sensible when you want to discuss is Guido’s or the Guardian’s (etc) interpretation of the facts. If you want to discuss the base data, linking to Guido or Guardian instead includes all their interpretation of the facts, which by implication you agree with unless you make it plain you do not.

Not that I claim I am perfect in following this either...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 18 - 11:05 AM

Your problem is your inability to distinguish between data and opinion (or opinion edited data) Iains
You sneer constantly at date put up from the Guardian yet expect us to swallow opinions by Fawkes the Fool who offers little more than a personal agenda.
I studiously avoid quoting Al Jazeera and the Plaestinian supporting Electronic Intafada, despite the fact that both contain masses of well-researched information because I don't want to get bogged down in arguments on sources.
You really do want to have your cake and eat it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 18 - 12:52 PM

Jim you are talking complete bollocks as usual. It is not the guardian's data I dislike it is their socialist interpretation. I use sources that interpret the data in a way I largely agree with. A lot of the time this is "alternative sources" because because the MSM tend to either totally sidestep issues, or follow the government line.
Now obviously when the going gets political some of the data starts to become iffy, apart from economic data (too many sticky hands enforce consistancy)Whether it be fact or fiction is another argument.
Wartime casualty figures
Who bombed whom
Who poisoned whom
Received explanations for the above cases will never satisfy everyone, in fact they polarize opinion. There is a major problem trying to isolate fact from fiction. Propaganda, government funding of certain bodies, the "great game", economic warfare all contribute to the fog of war. Who you believe depends on where you are coming from. If a government narrative is being pushed you need to study the politics behind the agenda, if you can.
They say history is written by the winners. They omit to add that the actions forming the history are also determined by the wannabe winners, and the true story is often very murky. Taking everything at face value on offerings such as by the white helmets, likely leads to erroneous interpretation. You need to search behind the facade and enquire as to the contents of the accompanying Pandora's Box.
Today no news source is trustworthy and I find many blogs and internet sites make a far better job of both presenting and interpreting data, as opposed to the constant dissembling by the MSM. Such is the world we live in. It is why I find Guardian articles so hard to stomach. Their politics frequently over rides common sense. They are as false as the BBC trying to claim impartiality. It is a shame that sites like global research offer a far more informed analysis of many events than the MSM. This is probably why they take such a constant knocking.
Disparage such sites as much as you like but you will search long and hard to find better informed analysis of global events. You may not like the conclusions, you may take a totally opposite view, but generally the presentation is second to none.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 18 - 01:14 PM

"Jim you are talking complete bollocks as usual."
Back to your loutish arrogance Iains
Are you really unaware that it is a sign of your floundering for a decent answer ?
You have it exactly right - you pick only sources that fit your right-wing mind-set and reject everything that doesn't
We already knew that - to tell us, tell your priest
The rest of us take what information that is offered and debate it
I suggest a few manners classes might be in order before you join the adults - your arrogant name-calling was amusing; now it is just repetitively tiresome
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 18 - 01:26 PM

"Whilst both projects are interesting in their own right I fail to see the relevance to "Post Brexit life in the UK"
Says he who happily babbles on about off topic items such as weeds and endless trips to ireland.
Better clean up your own act before dictating to others methinks!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 18 - 03:59 PM

Better clean up your own act before dictating to others methinks!

Says he who throws around insults then goes off on a strop if anyone dare to point that out!

The hypocrisy really is getting tedious and the abuse is definitely adding nothing. How about putting a stop to it now?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 May 18 - 04:44 PM

Mea Culpa Iains, guilty as charged.

However for days, weeks nay months you have not provided a single rebuttal to any of the articles I have linked to.

Not once.

I have asked this question many times, do you have ANY good news about Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 18 - 07:51 PM

If it's pure news, presented in a neutral way, that you're after, the best you can hope to do is seek out sources that try to keep comment and hidden tendentiousness out of their news reports. Even then, you're at the mercy of the fact that a newspaper only has so much space and a radio/TV broadcaster is strapped for time. Someone has to decide things like what page an item goes on, how many column inches it gets, whether it gets the banner headline for that page, etc etc. Or indeed whether it gets in at all.

Apropos of keeping comment out, the best newpaper sources are the Guardian and Telegraph. The worst are the Sun, Mail and Express. Guido Fawkes starts out with an agenda, therefore is not to be trusted. I'm with Jim on sources such as Electronic Intifada and al Jazeera. There's much good stuff in both and journalistic standards are high, though quoting them as sources is a game not worth the candle around here. The flip side of that is highly amusing: one or two people here are more than happy to quote disreputable sources such as Guido Fawkes and the Mail, often just putting up the link with either a "witty" little aside or no comment at all. Speaks volumes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 18 - 02:00 AM

I'd add The Independent to your 'trusted' list too, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 18 - 03:19 AM

"Says he who happily babbles on about off topic items"
Like all long threads, this one has meandered on and off topic from the beginning without a word of complaint
The cry "off-topic" is extremely handy as an indication that the complainant has run out of ideas
As kids we had their equivalents - in Liverpool we had "barley or fainites," - the Opies called them TRUCE TERMS

You've been happy to drift off-topic so far - why raise the question now? - (rhetorical question, of course)
Iains is suffering from one of the new diseases on the block - he has a nasty dose of 'The Brexits' - HE HASN'T THE FAINTEST IDEA WHAT TO DO OR SAY NEXT
That's what getting too close to Brexit does to you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 18 - 04:14 AM

You all still seem to miss the main thrust of my argument that often the facts can be checked, irregardless of origin. Obviously the source quoted has an agenda, like the BBC, Guardian, Times.Independant, Daily wail, whatever. There is no such thing as a neutral news source, often vital news is totally omitted because it would involve a departure from their script. The conclusions drawn, or interpretation of the facts is obviously governed by the source. If you cannot work that one out perhaps you should not be here. Dismissing various sources because they do not share your particular political stance is condemning yourself to
willful ignorance because all sources are selective in what they will report. You may not like guido or al jazeera but they often contain information not seen elswhere.
To say any one source is disreputable merely displays your own ignorance. All sources are disreputable in one way or another, even if it is merely the political slant of their analysis.
Clever little putdowns about sources say much more about the person posting than the source being denigrated.
Guido does not permanently beg for money like the gruniard. That says a lot!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 18 - 04:39 AM

"Google News will often cite smaller websites and blogs, when the news reporting there is especially well-done. This flies in the face of the rest of mainstream media outlets trying to claim that anything other than corporate-controlled media conglomerates might contain “fake news”.

If you believe that no single news organization can be completely free of intrinsic bias, then Google News gives you a place where you can at least see the news reported from the entire spectrum. That’s a great way to get the whole picture, no matter what the news event may be."

Take it or leave it!
https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/top-5-world-news-websites-guaranteed-free-censorship/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 May 18 - 05:33 AM

on the day after the vote i went into work with a polish friend - she was met with a few calls of 'you'll be packing your bags now, marta' 'it's been good knowing you' etc
she is a good worker and well liked and she laughed this off. later she told me how upset she had been and how worried she was.

This is not a newspaper story or from any other source than my own experience. it is a true representation of a real event.

Now, i am sure we all know people who have been affected in a similar way . My daughter works in Estonia and is thinking of applying for citizenship there to guarantee that she can continue to live with her partner (she doesn't earn enough to live here - if only she was a Russian gangster) Another friend has recently returned to Italy. These and millions of other stories are not fabricated, not biased - it's just how individuals are trying to make sense of our ludicrous decision.

It's this that angers me - i don't know, nobody does, how it will work out economically or politically but we do know what is happening at a human level and the government are doing nothing to clarify their position to give us security and confidence.

you don't MSM or mudcat - just keep your eyes open

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 18 - 05:34 AM

Yep, should have mentioned the Indie.

Selection of what news is most important and what should be relegated to page 27 or left out altogether can't be neutral. But the content of news items in the Guardian, Telegraph, Indie and the BBC news can come pretty close. Comment is free but facts are sacred. CP Scott could have added that the Twain should not meet in items purporting to be news reporting. Which is why Guido Fawkes, the Mail, the Express, the Sun and the Mirror aren't to be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 18 - 05:56 AM

Clever little putdowns about sources say much more about the person posting than the source being denigrated.

It does indeed, Iains. Shame that you follow that with

Guido does not permanently beg for money like the gruniard. That says a lot!

What does that say about you?

I would say you either have a spectacular way with irony or that you are being hypocritical. I hope it is the former.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 18 - 06:11 AM

The mast head of the Guido Fawkes web site reads;

"tittle tattle, gossip and rumours about Westminster's Mother of Parliaments. Written from the perspective of the only man to enter parliament with honest intentions. The intention being to blow it up with gunpowder..."

Now if you want to rely on tittle tattle, gossip and rumour whilst the rest of us peruse adult grown up newspapers .............

That apart you have still to comment on any article I have linked to.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 18 - 06:53 AM

Has anything released by Guido ever proved to be wrong?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:00 AM

Hoop alert!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:08 AM

why trust anyone else's point of view? you have free will - work it out for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 18 - 07:41 AM

"Now if you want to rely on tittle tattle, gossip and rumour whilst the rest of us peruse adult grown up newspapers .............

That apart you have still to comment on any article I have linked to."

A clear demonstration of someone with the attention span of a gnat and the comprehension of goldfish.
Simply not worth the effort of trying to communicate with!
"I would say you either have a spectacular way with irony or that you are being hypocritical. I hope it is the former."
I gift you free membership of the club above.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 18 - 08:04 AM

I think it time that you were destined for the list of people to take no notice of yourself, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 18 - 08:29 AM

Iains, You have never even tried to communicate about anything to do with the articles, links or comments about Brexit that I post.

Not once.

You have never tried to refute or deny the contents of those articles and links, nor have you ever posted an alternative to them.

Again not once.

I'm beginning to think that you now realise that Brexit is probably going to be a complete disaster for the UK but you don't want to lose face by admitting it publicly.

And I can also guarantee that you will either ignore this or tell me that I do not comprehend.

The one thing you certainly will not do is present an alternative to my posts and links.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 18 - 08:33 AM

The solution is very easy. Make a sensible contribution to the discussion or simply keep quiet. Most of your recent posts have had nothing of substance, they are merely provocative. and we all know what sort of lowlife behaviour that is. Do we not?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 18 - 08:37 AM

Hmmm. So quoting a speech by Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of England is quoting nothing of substance?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 18 - 09:15 AM

He's as bad as he who must not be named while he is in this mood, Raggy. Shame really because there have been occasional glimmers of sense. Just ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 18 - 09:26 AM

"Guido does not permanently beg for money like the gruniard. That says a lot!"
It does indeed
As with shit-holes like Ukip, such right-wing bloggers, have no problem finding wealthy financial backers

Paul Staines
In 2006, Staines along with Jag Singh co-founded MessageSpace, a digital advertising agency which operates an advertising network representing dozens of leading political websites. In 2012 it advised the successful Boris Johnson London mayoral campaign. Private Eye reported in June 2012 that MessageSpace was advising the Russian Embassy in London on using social media.[67]
St Kitts and Nevis-based Global & General Nominees Limited (GGN) publishes the Guido Fawkes Blog. Staines describes himself as an "adviser" to GGN.[68] He is a director of Global & General Nominees (Hong Kong) Limited.

He made his money originally as an Acid-House party organiser, linking him with drugs and he has a string of convictions for drink driving
Just the feller to take home to meet the family
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 18 - 09:59 AM

Been trying to remember who Fawkes reminds me of
Does anybody remember Private Eye's 'Lunchtime O'Booze@?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 18 - 10:24 AM

Rag,
Iains, You have never even tried to communicate about anything to do with the articles, links or comments about Brexit that I post.

That is not how debate is conducted Rag.
Pro and anti brexit articles appear every day. You alone think you are doing something clever by linking to all the ones you find on your side.

There was good economic news about goverment borrowing. It is at a record low because the booming economy and full employment has boosted tax revenue, the opposite of what the leave campaign predicted would be happening now.
Did you miss that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 18 - 10:35 AM

"DID YOU MISS THAT"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 18 - 01:01 PM

The Brexit select committee said that in the absence of another plan, extending the current customs union "will be the only viable option".

I was especially intrigued by this paragraph:

In a paragraph which three of the cross-party committee tried to get removed from the report, the MPs noted the government had not yet agreed which customs model it prefers "despite this being absolutely integral to the future EU-UK relationship and the UK's trade relationship with the rest of the world".


I think we can guess who at least two of the three are, but that's of less interest. It was why they wanted the paragraph removed that intrigued me.

Could it be that they think the government has agreed a customs model? Obviously not.

Do they think the model is not integral to our future trading relationships? Probably not.

So what, I wonder, did they want removed, and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 18 - 01:57 PM

Do they think the model is not integral to our future trading relationships? Probably not.

Probably yes. There is an alternative to both models so they are not "integral to our future trading relationships."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 18 - 02:12 PM

Let me help you out jimmie. You gave the wrong link. Try this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL8TJsM86x0

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 18 - 02:39 AM

"Let me help you out jimmie."
Are you really going to attempt to close this thread with your mind-numb schoolyard behaviour
Keith attempts to talk down to people, you have always attempted to talk down to people (as your long and as yet incomplete string of serial insulting has proved)
The pair of you wouldn't be tall enough to do so if you stood on each other's shoulders
For Christ's sake - grow up and stop killing threads with your uncontrolable childish behaviour
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:35 AM

You just cannot help some people!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 18 - 05:27 AM

I lved the fact that your "Official Bexit Song" was sung in a phony pseudo-American accent by the way
A perfect summation of this shitty decision
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 18 - 05:49 AM

Can you repeat that in english, I am a little confused by your comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 May 18 - 07:51 AM

Despite claims to the contrary today the UK posted the worst quarterly GDP figures for 5 years. Based mainly it seems on weak business investment and a fall in household spending, something that has been mentioned here before.

Worst GDP figures of 5 years

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 18 - 07:58 AM

Last two sentences of Rag's Guardian article,
"Much will now hinge on how consumers fare over the coming months, with some early indications there could be a rebound in stronger retail sales data for April.
John Hawksworth, the chief economist at PwC, said he still believed the figures from the ONS overstate the underlying weakness of the economy, given job creation in recent months. “We expect some recovery in the second quarter, with GDP growth of around 1.3% for 2018 as a whole,” he said."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 May 18 - 08:47 AM

As with all figures it is useful to have a comparison. As John Hawksworth the chief economist at PwC indicated "We expect some recovery in the second quarter, with GDP growth of around 1.3% for 2018 as a whole,”

So the UK may have a growth figure of 1.3%, the attached chart shows how we fare in comparison to other European countries.

European Growth Figures

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 18 - 10:46 AM

I think the lesson to be drawn from this is that it is a forecast. Sometimes they are right. sometimes they are horribly wrong. What will the above turn out to be?
After all forecasts prediction the klingon would win and that remain was a certainty.


You cannot attach too much credence to forecasts!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 May 18 - 10:59 AM

True Iains, forecasts can be mistaken.

However every economic predictor I have seen in the last two years show that the UK is lagging behind not only Europe, but behind almost every one of the industrialised nations.

Part, not all I accept, of this is due to Brexit, as you will have seen from the numerous articles and links I have placed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 18 - 11:13 AM

I see Andrea Leadsom says the Withdrawal Bill will be brought back before the commons in a matter of weeks, not months.

Just as well there is no time pressure on the withdrawal arrangements isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 18 - 11:20 AM

That is because the UK has transitioned to the post industrial economy.
Different rules apply. Anyway we have another thread running saying perpetual growth cannot continue. If the UK is making a successful transition you should applaud it instead of condemning it.
There are a few dinosaurs here who cannot understand what this all means, as they will shortly demonstrate!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 May 18 - 11:30 AM

"If the UK is making a successful transition you should applaud it instead of condemning it."

Arrant nonsense, and you know it.

The rules may have to change at some point in the future, but they haven't changed yet, so we are lagging behind every almost every other industrialised nation.

And we will no doubt continue to do so.

Got any good news stories about Brexit yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 18 - 11:47 AM

"I am a little confused by your comment."
No doubt Iain's - confusion seems a permanent state with some people
You linked to 'The Official Brexit Song' extolling the virtues of Britain standing on its own feet
It was sung in a phony American accent
Does that not seem ludicrously apt to you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 18 - 12:00 PM

"No doubt Iain's - confusion seems a permanent state with some people,"
Only when trying to decipher your seemingly random keystrokes. Have you tried spellcheck? It may not cure the nonsense but at least we could read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 18 - 12:03 PM

"Got any good news stories about Brexit yet?"
Since you last posted your mindless mantra I am happy to inform you brexit has crept that little bit closer.

Good News Indeed?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 18 - 01:13 PM

Since you last posted your mindless mantra I am happy to inform you brexit has crept that little bit closer.

Good News Indeed?

So have our deaths, by exactly the same amount.

That an event is getting closer is not, in itself, a good thing.
You need to show that the event is a good thing, which is what Raggytash keeps asking for.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 18 - 02:09 PM

Your logic is faulty. Anyone that supports the democratic vote obviously welcomes the approach of the event voted on. That is Brexit. Can welcoming the approach of Brexit be anything other than a good thing for those that support democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 May 18 - 02:37 PM

Iains, please explain to us all what benefits we can expect from leaving the EU.

(please leave out the mantra about getting our country back)

To date I have not seen one postive outcome for the UK, maybe I'm missing something and I would like someone to enlighten me.

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 18 - 03:37 PM

As I have said before, I do not scry, divinate, study entrails or the distribution of cast chicken bones. I suggest you address your enquiry to IPSOS MORI. They have no qualms about getting their forecasts wrong. We are after all talking about a glorious future event. Are we not?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 May 18 - 03:51 PM

Iains, you and your compartiots must have thought that the UK could benefit by leaving the EU.

Every bit of information I have gleaned in the past two years has been negative. (apart from taking back control of our country)

Please explain how we are going to benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:04 PM

I always thought one of the great benefits of the digital age was that records would no longer stick in the groove. In your case I was obviously wrong. You are now getting very boring.
The buttercups at the bottom of the garden are doing very well this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:24 PM

Not seen a sign of a buttercup yet, too bloody cold up here at the moment.

I take it you have no logical answer to my question though.

Sadly I am not at all surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:29 PM

Raggy, owd lad, they haven't a single clue how the U.K. will benefit after BrexShit because they allowed themselves to be conned into voting Leave by a few sound-bites and bare-faced lies fed to them by a bunch of self-serving charlatans who themselves hadn't a clue how we will benefit (and still don't).

But it'll be alright when we've 'taken are cuntry back'. Not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:37 PM

I know that Backwoodsman, but unfortunately these silly buggers have dropped the rest of it in the sh*te.

I'll be OK .......... I hope.

Other people, like my son, will suffer the consequences for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 18 - 04:45 PM

Your logic is faulty.

No, my logic is fine. If you wish, I will write it in formal mathematical predicate logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 18 - 05:01 PM

We are after all talking about a glorious future event.

In what way is it going to be glorious? That is all we are asking and, to date, no one has provided anything like a sensible answer. When you went into that polling booth and but your mark on that paper you must have thought it through. Give us a couple of examples of which way you reasoned it may be glorious.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 May 18 - 05:04 PM

"Give us a couple of examples of which way you reasoned it may be glorious."

And try to show us now how that reasoning has been justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 18 - 05:05 PM

Don't let me stop you!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 18 - 05:05 PM

I will live with just examples of the reasoning, Raggy. It will be better than the nothing we have had up to now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 18 - 06:01 PM

The Coffee Sack in Prestwich was as lovely a place as ever today, but I noticed a slight diminution in the amount of crushed avocado on my sourdough toast under my two exquisitely-poached eggs. I blame brexit. Mind you, the cappuccino was as gorgeous as ever. Best coffee in Prestwich!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 18 - 03:44 AM

I wonder what carbon footprint is generated by enabling avocado to be put on your plate? The reduced amount is in response to escalating prices brought about by climate change, not Brexit. A typical poorly researched remoaner response.

https://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/blog/global-avocado-crisis-resilience-uks-fresh-fruit-vegetable-supply-system/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 18 - 04:32 AM

It was pissing down in Manchester yesterday. I blame Brexit for that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 18 - 04:38 AM

I wonder why irony is lost on Brexiteers?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 18 - 04:42 AM

Lack of intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 18 - 04:48 AM

Rag,
Every bit of information I have gleaned in the past two years has been negative

That is because you only go looking for negative speculation.
For every negative one in the Guardian there is a positive one elsewhere, but no-one on that side is silly enough to think that posting links counts as debate!

5000!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 18 - 04:55 AM

On a lighter note Steve, a schemetic map of Brexit has been drawn up.

Looks jolly interesting !!



Brexit Map

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 18 - 05:28 AM

A reminder of what the Brexit vote was all about. Some here seem to forget.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQjWV9Bhc0g

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 18 - 05:41 AM

Another potential unintended consequence of Brexit, the cost of custom checks on British Business could be £20 Billion per annum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44238226

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 18 - 05:54 AM

Well this doesn't look like good news, but I'm sure our BrexShiteer Bumpkins will attempt to put a polish on the turd.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 18 - 06:05 AM

I mentioned this a few days ago Backwoodsman, needless to say none of the Brexiteers could find an adequate response to it.

But, put in simple terms, the EU trade with New Zealand is about $20 Billion NZ Dollars the UK part of that trade is about £4 Billion NZ Dollars.

We are simply not going to get the same terms on our own with only a quarter of the trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 18 - 06:19 AM

Aaaahh, so you did, Raggy! My apologies.

But at least 'Weer taking are cuntry back', so the BrexShiteers can rest easy in their beds tonight, knowing that by this time next year everything will be wonderful - the NHS will be getting an extra £350m a week, the 'imagrunts' will have all been deported, all those 'easy' and 'straightforward' trade agreements will have been lovingly placed in our national lap by a grateful world, and their longed-for unicorns will be frolicking amongst the flowers and the butterflies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 18 - 06:36 AM

DOESN'T LOOK LIKE "GOOD NEWS" TO ME
NOR DOES THIS
MAYBE THIS IS THE "GOOD NEWS"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 18 - 07:53 AM

It astonishes me how people can say there are lots at positive forecasts and yet when asked to give examples they cannot do so. It shouldn't I suppose but I do tend to take people at face value. Apart from those who have already proven themselves to be dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 18 - 08:07 AM

That is a bit surprising isn't it.

What is even more surprising is that even with my extensive perusal of the various news and media sites, every day, I have still to find one positive report of Brexit anywhere.

I must be looking in the wrong places. Perhaps Iains or Nigel could point me in the right direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 18 - 08:10 AM


The progress of the UK’s negotiations on EU withdrawal (March to May 2018)



The above is the link to the Select Committee report I referenced earlier.    This was unanimously agreed by the whole committee, including Jacob Rees-Mogg. You can see the full list of commitee members in the report. This is not "Leavers" putting a spin on things, then, but both leaver and remain agreeing in writing that neither of the proposed customs models, including that favoured by Brexiteers could be achieved in the time available.


20.
It is highly unsatisfactory that nearly two years after the referendum, Ministers have yet to agree, and set out in detail, what kind of trading and customs arrangements they wish to seek in negotiations with the European Union. The Secretary of State has said that the EU’s dismissal of the UK’s original proposals for its future customs arrangements was an opening negotiating position. However, the Government admits that further work is required to make both the maximum facilitation proposal and the new customs partnership proposal viable propositions. Moreover, trade in goods currently regulated through the Customs Union is not the only challenge that must be resolved in order to secure frictionless trade. Significant elements of intra-EU trade are also regulated through Single Market legislation that sits alongside the Customs Union. As the December text agreed between the Government and the European Union makes clear, agreement on solutions to maintain frictionless trade on the Northern Ireland/Republic of Ireland border cannot wait until the transition/implementation period. The European Council, the UK Parliament and the European Parliament will need absolute clarity on the UK’s future customs arrangement before being asked to approve the Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration.

21.
The Government has indicated that neither the maximum facilitation proposal nor the new customs partnership, if agreed, is likely to be ready in time during the agreed 21-month transition/implementation period. Each option will have to be judged against the commitment repeatedly made by the Government to have no hard border in Northern Ireland, no infrastructure at the border and to uphold in full the Good Friday/Belfast Agreement. The Prime Minister has alluded to “contingencies” that can be triggered in this eventuality but has not set them out. The Secretary of State has ruled out any extension of the Customs Union but in the absence of any other plan, such an extension will be the only viable option. The Committee calls on the Government to set out clearly its proposals on customs beyond 2020, and any contingency plans as a matter of urgency. This should include whether it is likely that an extension of the transition/implementation period will be required and whether it intends to seek to include the option for such an extension in the Withdrawal Agreement. It is also highly likely that any special contingencies that are necessary at the border will have to be replicated in other Member States if they are to be effective.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 18 - 08:12 AM

And let me highlight this sentence that both sides agreed to:

The Secretary of State has ruled out any extension of the Customs Union but in the absence of any other plan, such an extension will be the only viable option

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 18 - 12:44 PM

DMcG, did it come as a surprise to you that negotiations have not been going well?
Dave, all the forecasts from the Leave campaign have so far proved to be wrong, and who is interested in more forecasts?
Project Fear is still in full swing.

Inevitably there will be a transitional cost, and obviously the current uncertainty causes problems.

At least we are currently enjoying record low government borrowing, record tax take, record low unemployment and record exports.

Read what Peter Osborne says about the threat to EU from Italy.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5773311/PETER-OBORNE-Forget-Brexit-Italy-trigger-collapse-EU.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 18 - 01:48 PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5764591/Best-Britain-backed-George-Soros-plans-stop-Brexit.html

The remoaners keep some fine company!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 18 - 01:54 PM

You're still not responding to anything Iains
Can we assume that you've withdrawn all your "good news"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 18 - 02:38 PM

Iains:

"It emerged in February that Best for Britain had accepted a £400,000 donation from Mr Soros, the Hungarian-born financier who bet against sterling on Black Wednesday in 1992 – earning him one billion dollars."

Really? Twenty six years, One billion dollars? In one deal?

Do you actually believe that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 18 - 03:02 PM

Just to put that in some sort of context. The deal would have made him (in todays' figures) $1,700,000,000.

Seventeen billions dollars!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 18 - 03:42 PM

Sorry that should read $17,000,000,000 in one deal.

Wouldn't mind being a quid behind him!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 18 - 03:49 AM

"It emerged in February that Best for Britain had accepted a £400,000 donation from Mr Soros, the Hungarian-born financier who bet against sterling on Black Wednesday in 1992 – earning him one billion dollars."Really? Twenty six years, One billion dollars? In one deal?
Do you actually believe that?

Yes. Is there any particular reason I should not? If you are trying to make some sort of point may I suggest you research the topic first. Then you would not look quite so stupid.

The Independant:
George Soros is widely known as the man who “broke” the Bank of England in 1992, when he bet against the pound and made a reported £1.5bn.

Investopedia:
The British government gave in and withdrew from the ERM as it became clear that it was losing billions trying to buoy its currency artificially. Although it was a bitter pill to swallow, the pound came back stronger because the excess interest and high inflation were forced out of the British economy following the beating. Soros pocketed $1 billion on the deal and cemented his reputation as the premier currency speculator in the world.

Forbes:
no one made more than Soros, who cleared $1.5 billion in that fateful month of September. (The score made Soros' legend and swelled his firm's coffers; assets under management jumped to $7 billion, from $3.3 billion, by mid-October 1992, and to $11 billion by the end of 1993.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 May 18 - 04:00 AM

I stand corrected Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 May 18 - 04:01 AM

PS Found any good news about Brexit yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 18 - 04:12 AM

Rag, how can there be any news about something yet to happen?

All you produce is speculation, and any bad economic news while ignoring any good economic news.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 May 18 - 05:20 AM

Yet another warning to the Government regarding future border controls, this time from the operators of Eurotunnel (who you would expect know a thing or two about the subject).

Once again they are warning that the MaxFac option could cost businesses and consumers around £20 Billion per annum, but also warning that the other option the Customs Partnership would also add costs, extra checks and bureaucracy.

Eurotunnel warning

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 18 - 06:03 AM

"Rag, how can there be any news about something yet to happen?"

A single sentence that epitomises the crass idiocy of people who voted for the biggest change since the end of WW2, without even the slightest clue of what that change would involve, or what its result would mean for, not only themselves, but the large majority of the population who did not vote for it. Not only that, they continue to defend their Leave vote, and heap scorn on those who ask them to support it with actual facts.

You couldn't make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 18 - 06:24 AM

"but the large majority of the population who did not vote for it."
I guess elementary maths. is not your strongest subject?
You couldn't make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 18 - 06:33 AM

"but the large majority of the population who did not vote for it."
I guess elementary maths. is not your strongest subject?

The large majority of the population did NOT vote for it. A relatively small marotiy OF THOSE WHO VOTED did favour leaving.

We have no knowledge of how those who did not vote would have voted, but it is factually accurate to say they did not vote for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 May 18 - 06:37 AM

Iains, the majority of people either voted against it or did not vote at all.

Their misjudgement admittedly, but they are still a majority of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 18 - 06:59 AM

"You couldn't make it up."
You don't have to Iains
51.9% of those who voted were leavers, 48.1% voted to stay, 28.7% of the population did not vote
It's you who need to work on your elementary maths
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 18 - 06:59 AM

"You couldn't make it up."
You don't have to Iains
51.9% of those who voted were leavers, 48.1% voted to stay, 28.7% of the population did not vote
It's you who need to work on your elementary maths
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 18 - 08:02 AM

The large majority of the population did NOT vote for it.

Nor did they against it thus it is a totally irrelevant statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 18 - 08:25 AM

That's a very selective quote, bobad. Did you miss this one two sentences later in the same post:



We have no knowledge of how those who did not vote would have voted, but it is factually accurate to say they did not vote for it.


Iains questioned its accuracy, not what interpretations could be put on it. It remains factually accurate that the majority did not vote for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 18 - 08:28 AM

It is a pointless point.
Some people did not vote, but the turnout was the biggests ever and there was a clear majority result.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 18 - 08:44 AM

So, what about the rest of my post, Keefy - you know, the vast majority of it? Too difficult to refute, so you isolate one small point to pick at (even though other minds, considerably greater than yours, have spoken in support)?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 18 - 08:58 AM

....and, of course, I could ask the same question of Teribus-Iains. No response to the fact that they voted for nothing but an idea, driven into their thick heads by a tiny minority of Elites who stand to benefit massively financially from leaving the EU.

Why no response?

Because even Keefy and Teribus-Iains know, deep down, that they were shafted right royally by Bozo, Haddock-Face, The Scottish Viper, acting on behalf of that tiny minority of Elites, but to admit it would show them for the fools they, and their sort, are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 18 - 09:06 AM

BWM, re. the rest of your posts, I think you are wrong to suggest that the outcome was unknowable.
without even the slightest clue of what that change would involve, or what its result would mean

We did have more than the slightest clue. We see successful trading countries who are not part of EU or any equivalent, and many of us remember being such a country orselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 18 - 09:08 AM

And of course my statement they disputed was factually correct. I seriously doubt that anyone who doesn't have the wit to understand the difference between 'the majority of the population' and 'the majority of those who voted' has the intelligence to make an informed choice and vote accordingly anyway - far more likely to be influenced by sound-bites, lies about NHS funding, and slogans repeated ad nauseam about 'take back control'....not to mention their own innate racist and xenophobic views.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 May 18 - 09:12 AM

Backwoodsman, do you take a gamble now and again.

Here's the bet.

The EU will get a better deal with New Zealand with their $16 Billion NZ Dollars spend than the UK will get with their $4 Billion NZ Dollars spend.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 18 - 09:28 AM

That might be an interesting bet, Raggy. I imagine if you could find a Panglossian Brexit-supporting bookmaker you might get good odds.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 18 - 10:18 AM

The EU has to get agreement from every one of its 27 members for a trade deal.
New Zealand and Australian meat products and wine are much cheaper than the French equivalent. I recall French farmers burning lorry loads of live British sheep and lambs because they undercut theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 18 - 12:45 PM

When discussing the outcome of any vote it is always in terms of the votes cast. Having facile "how many angels fit on a pinhead" type arguments about the intent of those either not entitled or too idle to vote is meaningless. However the appalling mathematical ignorance of the leftards on this forum amply demonstrates how, when applied to economics, they manage to shred the economy when in power.
leftard maths

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 18 - 12:56 PM

However the appalling mathematical ignorance of the leftards on this forum amply demonstrates

Maybe, maybe not. But mine has been quite good enough to provide me with gainful employment as a mathematician in industry for my working life.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 18 - 01:07 PM

DMcG There are exceptions to every rule. A shame you could not share your knowledge with the previous labour governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 18 - 01:08 PM

But you were talking about people on this forum. That is what you said. To the best of my knowledge no Labour chancellor has ever posted here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 May 18 - 03:57 PM

DMcG, All current posts from the pro-brexit side of this thread merely seek to obfuscate the main discussion.

If they could give us even one reason to believe that our leaving the EU was beneficial to our nation I would be pleased to consider it.

After almost two years I have not heard a single point to that effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 18 - 04:10 PM

I know Raggy. I don't mind minor drift between news items, but from the leave side we get so little, like the stuff from Nigel, for instance, that you can't talk about Brexit news because it hasn't happened yet.

It is interesting to hear from Dominic Cummings who is credited with some of the most significant 'Leave' slogans about what a mess he thinks it is. It sm Les strong I'd self interest and deniability to me, but there you are.

Also it is worth reminding people that select committee reports was not criticising the Uk-EU negotiations. It was all about the inability of the U.K. Government to decide what it wants to negotiate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 18 - 04:11 PM

...smells strong of self interest ...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 18 - 04:12 PM

I hate auto text!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 18 - 04:20 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHDpieAFjQ8

Will We, Won't We?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 18 - 02:18 AM

This is sheer thread drift, but I have spent quite a few hours now thinking about that remark "There are exceptions to every rule." There really is a lot hidden in it, so I recommend it as something to tease away at in idle moments.

For example, my starting point was that it is a demarcation between scientific and non-scientific thinking. It is axiomatic in science - at least physical sciences and mathematics - that there are underlying rules without exceptions. So we try to formulate scientific laws that have no exceptions and, should we find one, we become very excited and are not happy until we have reformulated the way we express the law so there is no exception. Now some of these laws are of the form 'under these circumstances, this simplified version of the full law can be used as an extremely good approximation'; again exceptions to the rule lead to reformulation of the conditions when the simplification can be used.

So scientific thinking is never comfortable with the idea that "that there are exceptions to the rule". Non-scientific thinking is, on the other hand, inclined to react 'There an exception to the rule? Whatever - move on".

And every one of us is a blend of both attitudes.

As I say, that was my starting point.   In the process I wandered (and indeed wondered) through the law (which also does not admit exceptions but there are a surprising number of situations where you cannot decide if you have broken the law or not), politics, religion, how left and right wing related to this and many other topics.

I won't say any more about this here, but I repeat, I think it is well worth reflecting on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 18 - 02:44 AM

Food and farming sector makes post-Brexit demands

I can't help wondering if Boston (UK) is represented in this, which has the strongest 'Leave' vote in the country.

Quoting the FInancial Times:

        The motivation for the Boston vote is not a mystery. Immigration here spiked by 460 per cent between 2004 and 2014, mostly through eastern Europeans coming to work in low-paid jobs in the fields or processing factories

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 May 18 - 04:20 AM

DMcG. Sociological data throws up any number of exceptions to the rule.
Most people are law abiding citizens but psychopathic murderers exist.
Most people have limited capital yet billionaires exist
Any distribution curve has extremes at either side, Most would be happy to call these end points exceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 18 - 04:37 AM

However contradictory it may be, I will repeat: I won't say any more about [that] here.

And in particular I'd rather not get into deep discussions about distribution curves, T-tests and the rest. Or the various possible meanings of the word rule (eg regulation versus pattern)

I just recommend it as a topic to reflect upon.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 18 - 04:46 AM

Rag,
If they could give us even one reason to believe that our leaving the EU was beneficial to our nation I would be pleased to consider it.

Here are six.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/six-best-reasons-vote-leave/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 May 18 - 04:53 AM

My prediction(for what it is worth) is that another general election will be called later in the year. The outcome will prove interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 18 - 05:18 AM

Not one of Hannan's reasons for leaving is unambiguously "beneficial to our nation". You may think they are the right thing to do, but that does not mean they are beneficial. For example I am not, personally, bothered too much about whether there is an EU flag or not, which he cites in support of his first reason.

Reason 6 was amusing. Apply it to a stroppy teenager who threatens to leave home. His argument is that once the threat is made, the only possible sensible outcome is to go through with it if the 'parents' don't concede. Whereas we all know that is usually not the best way to resolve the issue.

But there is an interesting thing about the flag. It has been suggested that if Northern Ireland reunified the UK would be pleased. Now if we did, logically we should change to the flag back to how it was between 1707-1800 (I think), before it was changed to incorporate Ireland.   Reluctance to do so would seem to me about a emotional attachment to 'the UK' as a concept that is completely divorced from what it actually is. The only other objection I could see would be the cost of replacing flags, but that is trivial in the scheme of things and not one that concerned us when we changed the flag to add Ireland. On the other hand I fee rather confident - with no evidence, I accept - that many Leavers, and a good few Remainers, would feel very unhappy about the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 18 - 05:23 AM

We know that you were not convinced by the reasons to leave, but a majority of the electorate were.
Rag can not say that in two years he has never seen a "reason to believe that our leaving the EU was beneficial to our nation."

Like you he can just say he does not accept them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 18 - 05:41 AM

This seems to put it where its at
From this morning's Irish Times
Jim Carroll

MAY HEARS HER BACKSTOP SIDESTEP IS A NON-RUNNER

Paddy Smyth Analysis
UK must find a way to make it work so it reflects promises of last December
Theresa May has strung herself and her government up on a DUP hook from which there is apparently no escape. Short, that is, of telling the unionists she has no choice but to make a commitment to the possibility of customs controls on the Irish Sea to secure the greater objective of a frictionless border between North and South.
Last week she was told by the EU in Brexit talks, in no uncertain terms, that her complex formula for sidestepping the “backstop” commitment she made in December - or, rather, reinterpreting it - is a complete non-runner.
She must now go back to the drawing board and produce a new way of opera¬tionalising the backstop that reflects the uncomfortable promises made in December. This backstop ensures no divergence in customs and trade rules between the Republic and Northern Ireland in the event there is no agreed solution on how to avoid a hard border.
How she ever thought it would run is not clear, as one senior EU official close to the talks admitted. “You are not the only one to be confused here,” he told this correspondent at a post-talks briefing.
SPECIAL PROTOCOL
Mrs May has struggled with the reality that in December, in order to demonstrate “sufficient progress” and see talks move on to their next stage, the backstop commitment was conceded as a guaranteed fallback to the EU for the Withdrawal Agree¬ment in case longer-term talks failed to produce a borderless EU-UK trade deal. It is now enshrined in draft, unagreed form in a special protocol to the Withdrawal Agreement.
Under pressure from unionists opposed to controls on the Irish Sea - inevitable if Northern Ireland is treated as a separate case - Mrs May has delayed and fudged in the Northern Ireland strand of hope that the guarantee might not be necessary. But the EU wants a firm commitment by June. And there is no sign of a solution.
May has been suggesting in recent weeks that the customs provisions suggested in the backstop should be extended on a UK-wide basis to obviate the need for separate treatment of Northern Ireland goods. This would be on a strictly time-limited basis, she insisted, so the UK’s ambitions to sign separate trade deals would not be inhibited.
Two problems: the time limit undoes the guarantee element; and the UK was committing only to the customs element, not regula¬tory alignment. Absent the latter, there can be no friction- less border.
The UK had refused to discuss the backstop in the Ireland talks strand last week, but, to the surprise of EU negotiators, sought to raise it in the “future relationship” discussions in another room. “We have not addressed these issues in the context in which they need to be addressed,” the EU official complained.
“They did, however, in the beginning of the meeting on the future partnership, ” he said, “refer to the fact that Mrs May remains determined to address the Irish border issue through the overall EU-UK relationship.
“They said that they are currently discussing only the customs dimension of the backstop and that they are looking at making that EU-UK-wide. At the same time they said that they recognise that the Article 50 agreement (Withdrawal Agreement) protocol could not set out the permanent long-term EU-UK customs relationship. ”

STILL CONFUSED?
So was the official, he confessed. Progress can’t be made to the June “sufficient progress” talks yardstick unless, he said, “we have a recognition that the backstop has to be Northern Ireland-specific. And we do away with the fantasy that there is an all-UK solution to that. ”
The EU awaits, within two weeks, an explanation in writing of how the agreed backstop will be operationalised and the legal language for it for the Withdrawal Agreement. Arlene Foster can expect an uncomfortable call from Downing Street.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 18 - 05:42 AM

I was thinking earlier this morning, Keith, that I may have allowed enough time to say "let's talk again, if we are prepared to make the effort to understand the other's point of view. That doesn't mean we have to agree, but we do have to think about them."

I wonder, though. "Like you he can just say he does not accept them." Hmmm.

You seem to have missed that I said "You may think they are the right thing to do". There's no criticism in that: many people do think the power balance between the EU and the UK is wrong and they are perfectly entitled to that view and to have voted accordingly.   But that is not the same as saying changing the power balance is unambiguously beneficial.

So I never 'just say' I do not accept them: I challenge them and read them critically. And I do the same for remainer arguments, whether you believe that or not. I could give example posts where people have blamed things on Brexit, for example, and I have said that I don't think that is right. But as I said very early on in this thread and have repeated many times since, as far as I am concerned the vote is in the past and what we need to be doing is getting the best post-brexit arrangement we can. All the disputes are about what that little word "best" means. And from the government I see no sign they have a hint of agreement of what 'best' means.

So over to you again Keith. I am happy to resume talks as long as you appear to be making a serious attempt to understand other's remarks. And to stress, understanding is not the same as agreeing. But its all up to you whether we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 18 - 05:57 AM

Now that is an intelligent, well-reasoned post, DMcG! Nothing to disagree with there.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 18 - 06:44 AM

I do not care if you choose to join the pack instead of replying to me DMcG. Just disappointed.

I put up some easily found arguments for leaving because Rag claimed never to have seen one.
I did not expect to convince any of you on the Remain side.

But that is not the same as saying changing the power balance is unambiguously beneficial.

No-one is claiming that.

So I never 'just say' I do not accept them: I challenge them and read them critically. And I do the same for remainer arguments, whether you believe that or not.

I am sure you do, and we on the other side do too.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 18 - 06:57 AM

That's exactly the kind of thing I am referring to, Keith.
I won't go into a detailed review of the since Raggytash asked for reasons leaving the EU was beneficial, but a claim now no one was asking for the justification to be beneficial is a distortion.

Looks like you may have to be disappointed in me again, I am afraid. There is no pack, except in your mind, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 18 - 07:01 AM

I referred to the pack involved in the "hoops" campaign which you are aware of and have chosen to join.
If you believe I have distorted something, the normal response would be to challenge me on it so that I could justify or withdraw.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 06:04 AM

Reuters today,
"FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Political turmoil in Italy and Britain’s decision to leave the European Union underscore the need for reforms in the bloc, a senior official of the German finance ministry said on Tuesday."
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-eurozone-germany/market-volatility-brexit-reinforce-urgent-need-for-eu27-reforms-german-official-idUSKCN1IU0XW

Bad news for EU.
More justification for Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 May 18 - 06:21 AM

From: Raggytash
Date: 27 May 18 - 06:37 AM
Iains, the majority of people either voted against it or did not vote at all.
Their misjudgement admittedly, but they are still a majority of the population.

For once I must agree. Voting against Brexit appears to have been a matter of misjudgement. Or is that not the intended meaning of your post?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 06:23 AM

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/29/italian-voters-brace-for-euro-showdown-ahead-of-snap-elections.html

Happy days are here again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTkX-OvIqP4

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:42 AM

"Happy days are here again"
Interesting that your link indicates most of the problems Europe is having are down to the rapid rise of the ultra-right influence
Should make you very happy
Who's have thought the thirties in Europe could ever be described as ""Happy days"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 01:01 PM

Europe's lurch to the right is a good reason to get out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:11 AM

"Interesting that your link indicates most of the problems Europe is having are down to the rapid rise of the ultra-right influence"

That is merely your totally distorted, naive political view.

The reality is Italy is fed up with the EU as are the saintly brexiteers.
As a result the pound has risen
"Italy now finds itself in political stalemate after president Sergio Mattarella vetoed the appointment of eurosceptic Paolo Savona, 81, as finance minister.

Carlo Cottarelli has now been appointed as the Interim Prime Minister, with another election in Italy being possible as early as September.

Notably, the Sentix ‘Italexit’ index – a probability measure of Italy leaving the currency bloc – has now climbed from 3.6 per cent, to 11.3 per cent.
THE pound euro exchange rate has risen 0.4 per cent against the euro today, capitalising on political uncertainty in Italy. This has seen the pound euro exchange rate now worth €1.149."

The more Europe goes to shit, the better your holiday euros deal.
I bet the remainders all jump out to take advantage. Some here have already boasted of such behaviour.

Being wedded to an ideal obviously does nor extend to supporting the euro when it is down! The conviction is not even skin deep- It cannot even extend below the pockets of the clothes worn.
So much for convictions eh boyos?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:17 AM

Italy is not a good advert for EU.
The 3rd largest economy in the Eurozone, it has suffered negative growth for ten years, has appalling unemployment especially among young people, and crippling debt and borrowing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:36 AM

"That is merely your totally distorted, naive political view."
No it isn't, and your imposing your own view on the Italian people prove nothing
The five Countries that are making waves for the EU are, in the main, those in the hands of the Extreme right-wing - in the case of Hungary, of neo-Nazis
The main objection of all of them has nothing to do with trade or the economy, but the question of accepting refugees and asylum seekers - GO LOOK IT UP
Gloating over that situation is both stupid and inhuman
We in rthe wealthy west have played a major part in promoting the wars that have created a refugee crisis - we need to take responsibility for doing so
Politocaicising over peoples lives is as low as it gets
The EU is an organisation of Capitalist states and as such, is displaying all the symptoms of a system that has had its day.
To allow the European extremist right to benefit from that situation is to return to the scapegoating 1930s
Not even it's best friends could describe Brexit as anything but a giant leap in the dark based on bigotry and intolerance
Your non-existent "good news" is a political farce nearly as entertaining as 'The Death of Stalin' - roll on the next Oscar awards
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 05:20 AM

"No it isn't, and your imposing your own view on the Italian people prove nothing"
That is a ridiculous statement. How on earth could little me impose my will on an entire people. Even Genghis Khan did not have an unobstructed run for his money!
The reality is that the pro EU President imposed a europhile quisling to head up a caretaker government and refused to acknowledge coalition's selected leader. That willcause grief shortly down the road.
Labelling people neonazis because they wish to retain their national identity is the hallmark of a fool.
The people guilty of creating the wave of displaced humanity live in fortress america with many miles of ocean insulating them from the fallout of their destabilising hegemony. It is more likely a deliberate ploy to destroy Europe and prevent it becoming any kind of economic threat. Now doubt history will confirm or deny the idea.

"We in rthe wealthy west have played a major part in promoting the wars that have created a refugee crisis - we need to take responsibility for doing so"
You speak for yourself laddie. I had zilch to do with it- I spent most of my time in these countries finding resources to boost their economies.
Easy for you to "we need to take responsibility", having run away to live in the middle of a bog. There you can snipe away to your hearts content, with no fear of an immigrant invasion. Go and live in Calais for a year and see if you wish to repeat your tired old nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:29 AM

Jim,
is displaying all the symptoms of a system that has had its day.

I agree. Another reason to get out.

The five Countries that are making waves for the EU are, in the main, those in the hands of the Extreme right-wing -

The Far Right is on the rise in every EU country but ours. Another good reason to get out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 18 - 12:16 PM

Yet another unintended consequence of Brexit has been discussed in the press today.

I am certain that when people voted to leave they were not aware of such.

After Brexit the UK may get poorer access (than even Israel) to EU science scheme.

Could some kind soul link to the article in todays Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 18 - 12:24 PM

Guardian Article noted above

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 18 - 12:26 PM

Thank you Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 18 - 01:28 PM

An interesting article from the Independent:

"The EU has just passed a law that could end the problems with free movement which led to Brexit in the first place.

Corporations will no longer be able to undercut local workers by exploiting migrants. Looking beyond Brexit, this law will make a big difference regardless of the option chosen for our future relationship with the EU"

I am not sure how such a law will work in practice - there is a massive financial incentive for businesses to find ways round it. But at the very least it is an acknowledgement that it is something many people have been concerned about.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:17 PM

"Yet another unintended consequence of Brexit has been discussed in the press today."

It is as yet merely a discussion. More sabre rattling from the Eunatics master class.

Unless the discussions take meat and come to pass, the resulting exhalations simply add to the CO2 burden of the poor planet we all share.
Perhaps their babblings should be rationed! Or perhaps they have been exalated and the ensuing musings are more correctly termed dribblings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:22 PM

"How on earth could little me impose my will on an entire people. "
I'm talking about on this discussion - you don't have a lot of respect here but that's what you said
You re becoming megalaomanic - I am accusing you personally of nothing
The Western world has he;ped create the greatest refugee crisis this planet has ever seen - and it's growing
I never thought I'd live to see the day our elected leaders tuned refugees back into war zones
Not so long ago someone was boasting of how many Jews Britain saved
If they'd have behaved then as they are now the Holocaust would have doubled in number
They who are elected to act on our behalf shame us all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:29 PM

Iains comment brought this Yes Minster scene to mind:

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Then we follow the four-stage strategy.
Bernard Woolley: What's that?
Sir Richard Wharton: Standard Foreign Office response in a time of crisis.
Sir Richard Wharton: In stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
Sir Richard Wharton: In stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we *can* do.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:37 PM

I watched with a lump in my throat last night wilea Mailain illegal immigrant shinned uo the side of a block of flats to savee a dangling child from certain death
He was immediately awarded honorary citizenship of France - we would have shipped him off to the nearest refugee center to await deportation, cheered on by Tommy Robinson and his scummy supporters
That's what your lot have made Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 03:08 PM

" we would have shipped him off to the nearest refugee center to await deportation, cheered on by Tommy Robinson and his scummy supporters
That's what your lot have made Britain"

Yet more unforgivable anglophobia from the safety of a bog in the west of Ireland.

Tommy Robinson now has over 500,000 signatures on the petition to free him. The D notice on his arrest was successfully rescinded. Our Orwellian leaders do not quite have it their own way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 18 - 03:57 PM

I thought Tommy Robinson was jailed at Leeds Crown Court yesterday Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:16 PM

"I thought Tommy Robinson was jailed at Leeds Crown Court yesterday Iains."

wakey wakey!you thought wrong. He actually was arrested tried and jailed on Friday not yesterday as the rest of the world knows. (Must be a world speed record for arrest trial and sentencing.) No prior planning by the PTB of course.
The rest of the world caught on to his arrest and jailing on Friday
and your point is? apart from delusion. Do tell!


Anyway more fodder for the remoaners and eunatics. The style of haircut for the summer season is apparently the cypriot one!


https://www.wsj.com/articles/whos-most-vulnerable-to-italys-troubles-europes-banks-1527679396

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:23 PM

Not being in the country at the moment does limit my accessto UK news somewhat.

I was merely asking a question, there is absolutely no reason for you to be so rude as you are in your reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:50 PM

"...from the safety of a bog in the west of Ireland."

Says it all about this man. Disgraceful. I suggest we all add him to the ignore list.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 18 - 06:30 PM

Nar Steve, he's nowhere in the same league as the other one. He might be a pain but he's no where near as bad.

I've gone nearly six months ignoring the other one and the stupid **** still tries to goad me into replying.

(insert your four letter word of choice there, but it is one that has been used before, it ends UNT, it is essentially female, and it's not a female relative!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 18 - 06:40 PM

Don't agree. He's inconsistent, moody, unpredictable, burns his bridges, arrogant, ignorant and insulting. There's something seriously wrong with him. Best sidelined.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:19 PM

"Yet more unforgivable anglophobia from the safety of a bog in the west of Ireland."
Yet more childish racist bravado from someone with no answers
If you think criticising politicians and Government is any sort of "phobic" it is you who are denigrating the British people
Brexit was sold on the basis of xenophobia - the leading group was a xenophobic party that had now itself apart with its own extremism and its constant in-fighting
I don't blame the British People for that (where have I?) - I blame the sorry bunch at the helm
Your support for scum like Robinson and his parties and your gloating over the rise on neo-Nazism in Europe clears away any doubt as to where you stand - it's taken time to get here, but well worth waiting for
"...from the safety of a bog in the west of Ireland."
Somewhat pathetic, don't you think
Pity I'm not black or Jewish - might have given you something a bit more substantial to throw
THis forum is suffering from a nasty infestation of racism
"I suggest we all add him to the ignore list."
Already there
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 03:27 AM

Jim every post where you mention the UK the content is derogatory. There is no justification for it. I have no idea why you exiled yourself to the west of ireland, but I cannot imagine your position on anything concerning the UK would gain you too many friends THERE. You are clearly anglophobic.
Get over it. You accuse me of being racist and a nazi with no justification at all, whereas your label of anglophobe is very apt.
If you dislike the label despite your voluminous posts confirming the accusation, please demonstrate how I can possibly be wrong! And Tommy Robinson now has over 538000 signatures on CHANGE.ORG. That is a lot of people that think your views are ridiculous.

Good to see the mudrats all bleating in unison. Have you though of performing as a choir at the TUC?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 04:27 AM

Where I choose to live is none of your business and that fact that you try to make it yours is an indication of the Little Englander you are
I was born in England and my family still live there and are very much effected by the shambolic policies of the inhuman morons in charge
Don't you dare tell me iI have no right to comment - your racist attitude is beyond belief
the level of your insulting other members of this forum sinks lower every day
Hopefully you will be soon joining those who have been thrown off this section of the forum (rather than your managing to close down this thread, as you are obviously attempting now to do)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 04:41 AM

"Don't you dare tell me iI have no right to comment - your racist attitude is beyond belief"

Please quote me chapter and verse - as shaw would say!
More made up jom shit. Keep frothing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QN7kmOhBMw

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 18 - 04:52 AM

"More made up jom shit?"

Another little giveaway there. New name, same old style.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 18 - 04:57 AM

Time to blank him out of your lives, chaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:59 AM

Do as you are told, chaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 06:02 AM

I agree with Keith (never thought I'd say that)
About time we blanked this serial abuser
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 06:30 AM

It seems to me that the only way we are going to stop getting theads closed is to police ourselves and get rid on anybody whose behaviour falls below a generally accepted standard - this applies to all of us
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 18 - 07:35 AM

"get rid of anybody" how Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 18 - 07:53 AM

Hoop Alert!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:21 AM

get rid on anybody whose behaviour falls below a generally accepted standard

Lol, you'd be the first to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:43 AM

My suggestion still stands
If we don't do anything about stopping personal abuse we can kiss goodbye to any topic we have strong differences on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:51 AM

Jim, you are about the worst culprit.
Is this a change of heart?
Hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:57 AM

Pushing on
Brexit
THE PREDICTION

THE REALITY

HOW IT IS MANIFESTING ITSELF
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 18 - 09:02 AM

Jim, the rise in Islamophobia probably has more to do with Islamist terror attacks than Brexit.
It happened with Irish terrorism, remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 18 - 09:05 AM

Perhaps someone else could copy my posts otherwise many people here are forbidden to respond to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 10:42 AM

"Perhaps someone else could copy my posts "
Perhaps apologists for Islamophobia are so beneath contempt that they do not merit a reply
Perhaps people who think that fellow-members of this forum are prone to either giving or obeying orders shouldn't be members of this forum
It really is about time you decided whether you wish to continue posting to people you have such a low opinion of
Why bother?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 10:57 AM

Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians
People with far more knowledge and experience have had their fingers burned on this forum by forgetting their place.

I know my place

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 May 18 - 11:19 AM

You really couldn't make this up.

Nigel Lawson one of the most fervid pro-brexit commentators has applied for French residency.

Could someone kindly add a link to the article in todays Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 18 - 11:25 AM

Nigel Lawson - French Residency

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 May 18 - 11:28 AM

Thanks Nigel.

On a far more serious note the Northern Irish Police have asked for greater funding to police the border post Brexit. Perhaps we should be very concerned about this.

Again could someone provide a link to the article in todays Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 18 - 11:34 AM

Brexit: Northern Irish police ask for more funds to protect border

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 18 - 11:36 AM

Jim,
Perhaps apologists for Islamophobia are so beneath contempt that they do not merit a reply

They are Jim, but none have posted so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 18 - 11:37 AM

When funding is squeezed, any police force will look for excuses to have its funding increased. Nothing surprising there.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 11:50 AM

"You really couldn't make this up.

Nigel Lawson one of the most fervid pro-brexit commentators has applied for French residency."

and Sorus is funding a campaign for the remainers and does nor even have UK citizenship

and JC lives in Ireland and pontificates on things British.

So just what could you not make up? or are to trying to make some profound political point?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 18 - 12:30 PM

whataboutery

noun

BRITISH

the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.

"all too often, well-intentioned debate descends into whataboutery"


Such as, for example, bringing in Soros, where his funding of a campaign is completely in line with his position for many years as if it corresponds to a prominent Brexit supporter applying for EU citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 May 18 - 12:30 PM

Is JC (Jesus Christ) alive and well and living in Ireland? Well I never knew that. Tell us more !!

Once again Nigel thank you for the link. Yes you are correct that bodies like the Police force are invariably looking for more funding. However in this instance there may be some credence to their concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 18 - 12:45 PM

He is applying for residency, not citizenship. My mistake. But the comment still stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 12:53 PM

Would you like a pointless discussion on weeds instead?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 18 - 01:30 PM

Sorry, I know very little about weeds, so have never discussed them here.

Let's stick to this French residency business. What is your opinion of his behaviour?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 01:48 PM

"Well I never knew that. Tell us more !!"
Have you noticed how the Little Englanders are forever giving out about what the Irish should do, yet, when a British citizen living in Ireland dare to criticise our Government they go "pontificating" ballistic!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 18 - 02:08 PM

Well, back on-topic - Post-Brexit life in the UK - good old IDS says that anyone who doesn't like it should leave the Uk and live somewhere else. Except, of course, he and his fellow Brexit-idiots want Freedom of Movement to be ended. So how is that going to work, don't those Numb-Nuts understand that Freedom of Movement works both ways?

https://www.facebook.com/999BFA/posts/1929026887156374

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:46 PM

The UK is now subject to our tariffs on US Steel
Trumpy hates Theresa for her insults but likes Turnbull so Oz gets an exception

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 01:39 AM

Yes, the U.S. Tariffs is a worry. The wonderful trade deals with the rest of the world are looking as likely as the extra £350 million for the NHS.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 02:08 AM

So...any good news about what post-Brexit life in the UK will be like? Wonder how those 'simplest, easiest trade deals ever' that David Davies was crowing about are coming along?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 03:43 AM

From: Donuel - PM
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:46 PM
The UK is now subject to our tariffs on US Steel
Trumpy hates Theresa for her insults but likes Turnbull so Oz gets an exception

Just a little correction to this.
Trump will impose tariffs on EU (not UK alone). It is not, then, a response to Theresa May.
If we were no longer part of the EU we may have been able to discuss this separately, but we are currently bound in a single customs union with the rest of the EU, so have to accept deals and tariffs the same as the rest.
If these tariffs are the result of a failure in negotiation, it is a failure by the EU, not by the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 04:00 AM

Wonder how those 'simplest, easiest trade deals ever' that David Davies was crowing about are coming along?

We are not allowed to negotiate them yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 04:53 AM

https://extra.ie/2018/06/01/news/irish-news/eu-dismisses-mays-irish-border-solution

The EU is determined to frustrate the brexit process.

Hard Brexit here we come!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 04:59 AM

Amongst other things, the EU is determined that the solution to the Irish border, whatever it is, is long term. That is the primary reason that a proposal saying it will only apply "for a matter of months" is self evidently a non starter. The proposal agreed by the UK in December was that the backstop should be permanent until a mutually agreed better solution was found. That is what needs to be offered by the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 05:09 AM

I suspect if God himself offered a solution the EU would dispute it. They know very well that the border issue is the visible manifestation of a long running sore that can change to sectarian violence at the drop of a hat. The EU care not a wit for a localised anarchy, providing their master plan of ever increasing centralism continues.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 05:19 AM

The plan of further centralism is slowly unraveling.

Nation first, EU second

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/967935/Italy-news-LIVE-crisis-Giuseppe-Conte-Giovanni-Tria-latest-update-EU-euro-coalition-

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 05:27 AM

permanent until a mutually agreed better solution was found.

Maybe the EU has a different meaning for 'permanent'.
Replace 'until' with 'unless' and it might make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 05:45 AM

The relevant paragraphs on the December agreement are available online. Paragraphs 48-50 are the ones to read closely. They say the UK will propose specific solutions and in the absence if agreed solutions the United Kingdom will ma8ntain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Unionwhich, now or in the future, support ... The protection of the 1998 Agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 05:48 AM

Posted too early when I tried to fix the typos. That's one reason I rarely try.


I was about so say there is nothing in that that to me suggests a time limited solution could be acceptable and the "now and in the future" emphasises that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 06:17 AM

The specific solutions offered are always unacceptable and always will be for the reasons stated above. Blood from a stone springs to mind.
The only negotiating position of the EU towards Brexit is to display
intransigence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 06:30 AM

That's a point of view. Another is that the UK has been unable to suggest anything that meets the agreed paragraphs in the December document. And, in the main, every proposal has self evidently been in conflict with those paragraphs without needing to speak the EU at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:25 AM

New suggestion to the border issue now being mooted is that the Six Counties remain in the EU and also part of the United Kingdom
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:55 AM

New suggestion to the border issue now being mooted is that the Six Counties remain in the EU and also part of the United Kingdom

Who is mooting this?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 09:19 AM

David Davis, Nigel. It is in various reports.

But it another nonstarter, so don't worry.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 10:29 AM

If they allow the Six Counties to remain in the EU, fairness and equality surely dictate that it would also be reasonable for all other UK citizens who wish to remain in the EU to be granted EU citizenship, and an EU passport. There were 16 million of us at the last count, plus the lazy ones who couldn't be bothered to get off their idle arses to vote.

That's just as likely as the Six Counties remaining in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 03:11 PM

Is this a non starter also?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/968067/italy-news-populist-government-giovanni-tria-paolo-savona-giuseppe-conte-lega-five-s

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 03:33 PM

"Is this a non starter also?"
HOPE SO IF THESE ARE HIS SUPPORTERS
My point about the extremist right leading the pooposition to Europe made perfectly
Are these really the people you are happy t see running the world
You people have learned nothing from history
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 04:50 PM

Nah. It is the EU leading to the pooperisation of europe. I always held it was a crock of shit!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 01:33 AM


Is this a non starter also? [Italy government saying Germany should leave Euro]

The short answer is yes.

But the long answer is more interesting. With Brexit, the analogy that the UK is deciding to leave a club has often been used. The same analogy can be applied here: Can (or should) a club be able to evict one of its members? The EU does have a mechanism to punish unruly members by fines/withholding funds, but as far as I have been able to see so far, no means to evict a member. If that does not exist, it does seem to me to be a change in powers that is worth considering. But in practice it would be incredibly disruptive, especially for a Eurozone member, and introducing such a mechanism would need to be agreed by all the member countries. That would mean each would have to weigh up the benefits of being able to evict someone else against the impact if they were evicted themselves. I would expect such a proposed change would be rejected because of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 02:19 AM

"Nah. It is the EU leading to the pooperisation of europe. "
Meaningless name-calling with no substance
You obviously have no intention of responding to the fact that all your examples are those of extremist right opposition to the idea that the idea that if world economies are to survive they are going to need to co-operate in order to compete
Brexit was always based on 'scapegoat politics' - rather than finding cures for economic problems and their social effects, let's blame the immigrants and refugees - the aliens in our midst
It's been tried before - last time it was the Jews.
Every one of the five European political groups who are objecting to continuing membership to the E.U. are Islamophobic
Britain has the honour of being the first to successfully resurrect Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' dream to walk away from Europe
You cannot have a decent world based on hate   
The irony of all this is that rather than "stand on their own feet" the next move will be for these hate-groups to come together to form an Axis - Marine LePen tried this in the early 1970s when she held a conference of Fasists groups in London - she failed, and more recently she was rejected by the people of France
The countries you produce as opposing the E.U. haven't been so wise
You have been producing a list of strange friends lately, what with Tommy Roberton and now a bunch of neo-Nazis
Exist from stage to make way for a string af childish abuse - feel free, it only underlins the point I am making
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 04:37 AM

Jim,
My point about the extremist right leading the pooposition to Europe made perfectly

The Far Right are on the rise in every EU country except ours.
Denmark has just joined the list of EU countries that ban the hijab.

Are these really the people you are happy t see running the world?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 05:30 AM

From this Morning’s Irish Times
Jim Carroll

May ‘Has Two Weeks’ To Solve Border Issue FIACH KELLY Deputy Political Editor
Government says British leader must table proposals to avoid EU summit crisis

Tánaiste’s warning reflects increasing exasperation in Dublin and Brussels
British Prime Minister Theresa May has two weeks to table written proposals on how to solve the Irish Border issue to avoid a Brexit crisis at a crucial EU summit later this month, the Government has said.
Tánaiste Simon Coveney says the European Union task- force, led by Michel Barnier, must receive detailed proposals in writing from the British government within a fortnight.
This would allow time to debate and discuss the proposals ahead of the European Council meeting on June 28th and 29th. The Government has said substantial progress on the Border, including the so-called backstop, must be made by this summit.
“In the next two weeks, we need to see written proposals,” Mr Coveney told The Irish Times. “It needs to happen two weeks from the summit.”
Mr Coveney’s warning reflects increasing exasperation in Dublin and Brussels that no firm proposals have emerged from London, with just weeks until the summit.
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar, Mr Coveney and other senior Minis¬ters such as Minister for Fi¬nance Paschal Donohoe have repeatedly told their British coun¬terparts that such proposals are needed soon.
“There’s a new idea or solution being mooted every week,” said a senior Government source, adding that Dublin was only “interested in proposals that are written down”.
“On paper like. Or on a screen. We are at legal text stage. We need legal texts to draft and debate.”

‘Buffer zone’
A leaked proposal yesterday from UK Brexit secretary David Davis - that would give Northern Ireland joint UK and EU status so it could trade freely with both, as well as a “buffer zone” to eliminate the need for border checkpoints with Ireland - was dismissed by Government figures. The latest proposals were also dismissed by the Democratic Unionist Party which urged its Conservative partners in the British government to stop coming up with “half-cooked ideas” on how to deal with the Border question.
The party’s East Antrim MP Sammy Wilson said yesterday “If there is no Ww progress on the backstop, we are in for an uncertain summer that none of the mooted proposals had been discussed with his party. He described them as “at best contradictory”.
On the buffer zone, one Government source in Dublin said it only moved a potential physical border, rather than ensuring that no physical border would be in place after Brexit.
Britain and EU are due to agree a withdrawal agreement, including the Irish backstop, by October, but the Government has warned this will be thrown into doubt unless substantial progress is made this month.

Trade rules
The backstop - which would en¬sure no divergence in customs and trade rules between the Republic and Northern Ireland without agreed solutions on how to avoid a hard border - was agreed in principle in December, although Britain has rejected the EU’s legal interpretation of it.
“If there is no progress on the backstop, we are in for an uncertain summer,” Mr Coveney said. “At this point we need written proposals on the Irish back¬stop consistent with what was agreed. We await written proposals from the British side.”

Labour leader Brendan Howlin questioned the value of any further discussions until Ms May secured the support of the House of Commons for a de¬fined negotiating position. Fianna Fáil Brexit spokeswoman Lisa Chambers said the back¬stop was still required and progress must be made at the June summit.
A recent proposal from Ms May that the customs provisions suggested in the backstop
be extended to cover the entirety of the UK for a limited time was rejected by the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 05:43 AM

Well they would say that wouln't they? The border issue impacts Ireland to a far greater extent than the UK, as has been discussed already.
Two ferry ports in mainland Europe, five in the UK (many times busier)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 05:48 AM

“I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by.”

? Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt

Which is funny, and probably applies to this June deadline as well. But the leaving date is a different matter (at the moment anyway) because it is legally binding, so you can't just listen for the whooshing sound.

The continuing inability of this government to propose anything where they can say 'We believe this is accordance with everything we signed up to in December' is a serious matter. Any one of us could come up with a dozen proposals in the next hour which do not meet what was previously agreed. Only things we genuinely believe do fully meet that agreement are worth even showing the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 06:03 AM

"Well they would say that wouldn't they? "
You've answered your own question
Brexit is a decision that goes well beyond Britain's Borders, but also adversely effects adversely millions of people who live within them
Those severely and immediately effected have every right to both comment and expect an answer
Even the Northern Counties have described the latest suggestion as "half-cooked" (I suppose it's indecent to say "half-cocked", which is exactly what it is)
It wwas predicted that Brexit could lead to the break-up of the United Kingdom - that seems to be the case, one way or another
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 06:55 AM

The Brexit Campaigners caused this situation by campaigning for an action without any in-depth study of the problems it would invoke, and without any kind of plan as to how to enact it successfully - hence the "Oh fuck!", rabbit-caught-in-the-headlights looks on the faces of Bozo the Buffoon, Haddock Face, and The Lying Scottish Viper as they shat their boxers and ran for the hills the morning after the vote.

The UK have created the problem of the Irish border by baling out of the EU. It is a matter of logic, therefore, that it's the UK's responsibility to put forward a workable solution acceptable to all sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:01 AM

The Brexit Campaigners caused this situation by campaigning for an action without any in-depth study of the problems it would invoke,

i disagree with that.

It is a matter of logic, therefore, that it's the UK's responsibility to put forward a workable solution acceptable to all sides

Yes, but EU are saying that workable solutions are unacceptable, just to subvert the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:30 AM

" It is a matter of logic, therefore, that it's the UK's responsibility to put forward a workable solution acceptable to all sides."

It is a matter of logic for me if the EU sabotage every possible solution presented then it is time to walk without a deal.
Who will scream first I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 07:50 AM

I don't think you can regard the EU as sabotaging every possible solution unless the proposals made *are* possible solutions, which means we must believe they fully meet what was agreed in December. The EU might disagree, but we have to believe it in the first place.

Neither of the proposals so far meets that standard, nor does Max Fac 2.

Davis proposed Max Fac 2 having finally understood that the technological approach is infeasible. (Quoting the Sun for variety: "Mr Davis ordered it after he was persuaded to abandon a technology based solution to keep the Irish border open.")

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 08:23 AM

It is obvious to me the EU see the Irish border as the achilles heel for them to focus on. The issues raised go to the heart of the future EU.
Some see it as a progression to a centrist society where the nation state is rendered redundant. Others see the future differently. No matter what terms you want to use, be it federalist, centrist, whatever,not everyone agrees. If Brexit occurs, the EU view is that the entire edifice they are aiming for may come crashing down. Where Britain goes, others will follow. The differing economies and disparities between the north and south will shortly see the euro wake up to reality. The EU made no attempt to negotiate with the UK from within the EU, now they must negotiate with us leaving. They effectively destroyed the unity themselves. Where Britain, goes others will follow and the euro will sink to oblivion. Politics cannot fight economic realities.
The european leaders will stop at nothing to bring their nightmare future to fruition, hence the continual frustration of the Brexit negotiations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 01:00 PM

The EU may scream first Iains, but I would bet we will scream, longer, louder, later.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 01:06 PM

"It is a matter of logic for me if the EU sabotage every possible solution presented then it is time to walk without a deal."

Expressions like 'cutting your nose off to spite your face', 'throwing teddy out of the pram', and 'leaving the game and taking your ball home with you" spring to mind.

If, as you claim (although there doesn't seem to be a great deal of hard evidence, just your own rabidly pro-Brexit opinion) the EU 'sabotage every possible solution presented', that suggests to me that our negotiators are either insufficiently competent to devise a solution which works for all parties, or insufficiently skilled at the art of persuasion, or both.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 01:14 PM

"It is obvious to me the EU see the Irish border as the achilles heel for them to focus on. "
Then you miss the point entirely
The issue of the Border is vital to Ireland - both North and south
Until you/the UK grasp that particular nettle you will never understand the situation Britain is in
One of the most important aspects of keeping an open border is the fact that it is very much a part of the Peace Process and how the two halves of Ireland relate to each other
Suggesting that it is a political ploy is shortsighted beyond belief
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 01:24 PM

Jim, it is because it is so vital that it can be used to try and stop Brexit. I think that is what is happening.

If a free trade deal is agreed, there is no border problem .
If not, the volume of trade across that border is very small anyway.
UK says it can be left open without significant problems.
I believe them. UK have no reason to lie. EU does. They do not want Brexit.

It would be utterly impossible to monitor all the 200+ crossings anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 01:32 PM

It is very much a political ploy. Your view obviously differs. It will be interesting in 50 years, to see how the history books view it, when dispassionate analysis prevails. The border issue is of far more significance to the south.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/0913/904427-irish-exports-to-uk/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 01:38 PM

" Your view obviously differs."
Obviously - my view is from Ireland - yours is not
It will take more thna denial to convince the people here
Mkae your case
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 02:18 PM

It will take more thna denial to convince the people here

Your side is also just denying, but you can not deny that a trade deal will mean no change at the border anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 02:29 PM

"I believe them. UK have no reason to lie. EU does. They do not want Brexit."

Like they had no reason to lie about '£350 million a week for the NHS', or 'stop immigration'?

They have every reason to lie - they are determined to crash out of the EU at any cost, because doing so will benefit the immensely-wealthy tiny minority of Elites who are giving May and her cohort their instructions. As long as they can continue offshoring and avoiding paying taxes, what does it matter to them if the Irish start kicking lumps out of each other again? They don't give a FF about anything but their own wealth.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 03:09 PM

It is the elite who want to remain.
No-one promised to stop immigration.
The bus claim was fully debated at the time, and well before the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 03:41 PM

"It is the elite who want to remain."

Some, perhaps. Plenty of the wealthiest, most influential, who want to leave,...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-campaign-arron-banks-jeremy-hosking-five-uk-richest-businessmen-p


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-donations-ten-wealthy-political-donors-make-up-half-vote-lea


https://infacts.org/super-rich-bought-brexit-victory/

"No-one promised to stop immigration".

Nonsense. Immigration control was at the very core of the Leave campaign...

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_immigration.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36375492

https://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-referendum-topics/summary-of-vote-leave-misrepresentations-on-immigration.html


"The bus claim was fully debated at the time, and well before the vote."

It may have been debated, but there were still a very great many who believed the slogan on the bus, that leaving the EU would result in £350 million extra per week for the NHS, and voted accordingly...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/new-poll-suggests-third-brits-11027263

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 04:20 PM

Nonsense. Immigration control was at the very core of the Leave campaign...

yes it was, but no-one promised to stop immigration as you claimed.

Your survey claims that a large proportion of voters believed the bus claim, but it was massively debated at the time and the Remain camp made a big issue of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 05:35 PM

"yes it was, but no-one promised to stop immigration as you claimed"

Yes Keefy, I used the wrong word, I said 'stop', I should have said 'control'. Well spotted, award yourself the Nitpicker-of-the-Year badge. But we're discussing here your claim regarding the possibility of the EU lying to stop Brexit vs. the actual documented lies of the Leave campaign to achieve their referendum majority. A supporter of a group of proven liars really isn't in any position to accuse others of dishonesty. People in glass-houses etc.

Your survey claims that a large proportion of voters believed the bus claim, but it was massively debated at the time and the Remain camp made a big issue of it.

But it was a lie, it was believed by many Leave voters, and they voted accordingly. But we're discussing here your claim regarding the possibility of the EU lying to stop Brexit vs. the actual documented lies of the Leave campaign to achieve their referendum majority. A supporter of a group of proven liars really isn't in any position to accuse others of dishonesty. People in glass-houses etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 04:54 AM

AN interesting opinion piece about trade here.

It is one of the main reasons I was pro-Remain, and why I think a hard Brexit is likely to be disastrous. Freedom to negotiate your own dal is of no economic value whatsoever unless those are better than the alternative. In the case of the US, it was obvious from the start how weak our position would be, and this tariff move from Trump makes it even more obvious.


I assume any response from Brexit supporters will offer nothing more than hope that all our deals will be great ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 05:22 AM

"I assume any response from Brexit supporters will offer nothing more than hope that all our deals will be great ones."

Hopes are all they've got, DMcG. They voted Leave on the basis of nothing more than hopes - no solid factual evidence, no plan for the execution of Brexit should they win, just slogans, sound bites, and lies to bamboozle the racists, the xenophobes, and the feeble-minded. The proof of the lack of conviction of the three main characters in the Leave campaign of the strength of their case was in the way they promptly ran away when it was was announced that they'd won.

Now, here we are two years later, barely any further on, teetering on the brink of disaster, and the clock ticking ever-louder. And in reply to questions about 'any good news on Brexit yet', the' best response fools can come up with is, "We haven't left yet"!

But hey-ho, the tiny immensely wealthy cadre who are giving the government their instructions and driving us towards the cliff-edge of Hard-Brexit are happy, their wealth will be protected, even if the rest of us face hardship, or Irishmen start kicking lumps off each other again. So that's alright then.....

You really couldn't make this pile of crap up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 05:33 AM

BWM,
I originally said EU had reason to lie about the border because they do not want Brexit to happen.
Leave won the referendum and have no reason now to lie about the border.

Before the vote both sides exagerated and streched the truth.
It was all thrashed out in the open, claims were challenged and debated in public, and we got a result.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 06:37 AM

I've made my points (twice) and supported them with evidence. Now I'm perfectly happy to leave it and allow others to judge which of us has made the best case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 07:15 AM

Me too.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 07:41 AM

no-one really knows the full extent of how much the uk will be damaged economically or politically. however, with the current shambles of a government it is not looking good. could any of us really feel secure that they will protect our interests effeciently.

anyway, we can already begin to see the effects socially. apart from the uncertainty felt by millions of civilians here and abroad there is the the wilful disregard for co-operation with our neighbours and, ultimately, the peace of the continent.

of course the EU has its problems but i would be much happier in a country that is part of the solution, instead of insulting our friends and stomping off in a disorganised and incoherent huff.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 08:19 AM

I don't have anything really to add to that, pete, but I thought I'd demonstrate I had read it! I agree no-one knows how things will turn out, and maybe Iain is right to suggest in 50 years the historians might be wondering what all the fuss was about. But viewed from here and now, that's not how it looks to me.

Well done, Backwoodsman and Keith, though, in agreeing to let others judge who had the stronger case - I trust no-one is gauche enough to post their opinion on that: decide, yes, post, no.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 08:42 AM

Pete, I do not agree that we have shown "wilful disregard for co-operation with our neighbours."

We had hoped to continue exchanging intelligence and being part of military projects like Galileo.
It is the EU saying that will have to stop even though it is mutually beneficial.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 01:53 PM

PSNI station sales on hold over Brexit uncertainty

While this is precautionary, it does not send a 'good signal', and emphasises the need to get the border sorted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 07:27 PM

From: peteaberdeen
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 07:41 AM
no-one really knows the full extent of how much the uk will be damaged economically or politically.

Start an argument with a false premise, and then build on it.
Try: No-one really knows the whether the UK will be damaged economically or politically.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 02:19 AM

In my opinion, pete's formulation (no no-one really knows the full extent ...) is superior to Nigel's (No-one really knows the whether ...)

To begin with, pete's includes zero, so it subsumes the 'whether'. Then it is has a numerical value and so gives more information, whereas 'whether' is Boolean and so is less informative (in the information-theoretic sense.)

SO I don't think it can be classed as a false premise.

More legitimate would be to object to the framing. Pete's formulation refers to the full extent of the damage: it would be possible to reframe this as "no-one know the full extent of the benefits", which gives the same information, just changing the sign.

However, there are good reasons to use the 'damage' formulation, because it is standard business practice to do so: there is plenty you can read up online about risk assessment. But in short, the technique is to think about something and list all the problems it could have. Then alongside each of those you list what the impact if it occurs would be, an estimate of how probable it is and what you are doing to mitigate the risk.

All standard business practice. It doesn't matter how often people shout "Project Fear! Project Fear!", that is the normal method used throughout businesses everywhere. Nor do you wait until everything is over before carrying out the analysis; it is generally a business requirement to do it before attempting any change.

Pete's phraseology is in accord with that standard practice.

I have looked long and hard for any sign such an analysis has been done. Occasionally you get a leak to suggest something along those lines has been at least partially done, but it invariably dismissed as 'a working paper' or some such.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 03:24 AM

Apologies for the spurious words I added to both Pete and Nigels formulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 01:34 PM

So votes on all 15 Lords amendments will take place on 12 June, it seems. The physical mechanics of voting takes around 15 minutes, so that's the best part of 4 hours of the day gone. Doesn't exactly leave a lot of time to actually debate each amendment, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 04:10 AM

no. and of course it's a very worrying tactic in steamrolling through a flawed, incomplete and harmful 'policy' Are our government really resorting to Trump tactics, steering toward the american model in their idiotic desire to reject european values like democracy proper process?

and - oh my sweet Jesus- will no-one think of the children and families? i seem to dimly recall that the government promised that they would sort this out right away. this when they were accused of using individuals as 'bargaining chips' - well, we still are and nothing is secure.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 04:44 AM

Plenty of time to debate each amendment.
According to today's Telegraph (p2): "The House of Commons will spend more than 12 hours debating and voting on the amendments in a marathon session next Tuesday which is expected to go on into the early hours."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 04:57 AM

12 hours minus 4 hrs for voting, divided by 15 topics is about half an hour each. I do not regard that as "plenty of time."

Leaving Brexit and the details of this topic aside for the moment, the whole mechanism of our system is that the revising chamber identifies area of a bills where it recommends the commons thinks more carefully. Having done so, the Commons may leave things unchanged or modify the proposal to address the concerns.

I do not agree that can be done adequately in 30 minutes (on average).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jun 18 - 01:14 PM

I note that although a post was made when the pound "soared" to 1.15 Euro's no mention has been made of it's subsequent "plummet" to 1.13 Euro's.

Wonder why ...........?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 18 - 01:23 PM

Wonder why.........?
Probably because the lowest value recently was 1.12537. It has since risen. Did you miss it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 18 - 02:10 PM

I am not sure it is worth saying much until after Tuesday's votes. I simply shake my head at the way the government is happy to produce a proposal that stands no chamce of being acceptable, while Labour insists on backing a new amendment in a vote that no-one expects it to win, in support of a proposal that is also very unlikely to be acceptable to the EU because it is too "cake and eat it'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 02:20 PM

I'm a bit out of touch at the moment due to not having daily access to either the media or the internet but it would seem that Teresa May is not keeping even her own party happy.

An article I read today in the Guardian seems to indicate that the Tory party is at odds with itself.

If someone could link to the article entitled Tory Rebellion back on after MP's reject May's Brexit ammendment I would be grateful.

For those of you who support Brexit are you not concerned that even people who one could expect to support Brexit are having serious concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 18 - 04:06 PM

Is this the one?

There seems to be very high risk brinkmanship going on. As far as I can tell May decided to change a vote she was about to lose into one around a week later that she will probably lose but might not. But this comes at a significant cost to her in terms of trust. It will be interesting to hear what Dominic Grieve says on Question Time this evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 03:49 AM

Rag,
An article I read today in the Guardian seems to indicate that the Tory party is at odds with itself.

Daily Mirror yesterday,
"Labour MPs have staged a mass revolt against Jeremy Corbyn as 90 defied him to take part in a vote on Soft Brexit.
The Labour leader told his MPs to keep their noses out of a vote on whether Britain should stay in the European Economic Area (EEA).


But 75 Labour MPs rebelled to back the EEA - the so-called 'Norway model'. Another 15 Labour MPs rebelled to vote against it.
Of the 90 rebels, six were Labour frontbenchers who were forced to resign."
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/90-labour-mps-rebelled-over-12701636

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 03:55 AM

A fine example of high dudgeon by elements from both sides!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 04:13 AM

Whatever is going on in the Labour Party, it is the Tories who have to steer Britain through the mess this appalling decision has caused and it is they who are making a mess of it - a divided cabinet, the reliance on the Whips to get a Government resolution accepted, the reliance on bunging a billion of British taxpayers money to a sectarian party with terrorist links and an attitude to the rights of women that have never left Jurassic Park...
Labour are, as are all the parties, in the position of having to balance the tightrope between a death-wish decision for Britain and a vote largely carried by appealing to Xenophobia - not an enviable place for any party to be.
But the pathetic day-by-day shambolic performance of those responsible for governance of the country has made Britain the laughing stock of the world
Whataboutism - are you kidding !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 04:27 AM

The rebellions in Labour are totally as you would expect. As I said on 7 June at 2:10 the Labour approach seemed to me to be pushing an approach they knew could not win, and so it is no surprise that there were lots of rebels.

But that is a different order to apparent deceit in what the words to be written into law would be.


As to the SNP: I said a while back - and was contradicted - that not enough time was allocated to discussing these amendment.
The suggestion that the problems arose because Labour wanted to vote on the amendments is silly: voting in amendments is what Parliament does.

However, I also think it likely the SNP would have found a different reason to proteat if they had had enough time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 04:32 AM

Labour and Tories are both split over this.
All parties have a majority of Remainers in Parliament and always have, but they decided to let the electorate choose.


Now they want to take it back.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 05:12 AM

St Jeremy of Islington.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYcPGsscVmI

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 06:42 AM

"St Jeremy of Islington."
I PREFER MY SATIRE LIKE THIS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 10:48 AM

At the moment what Labour do is of little concern.

The conservative party got us into this situation, it is THEIR responsibility to ensure we come out the other side with as little damage as possible.

To hell in a handcart comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 11:00 AM

Raggy:
You may think that "what the Labour Party do is of little concern", and I would like to agree.

Unfortunately they (and some Conservatives) are still able to make mischief, and make it difficult for the government "to ensure we come out the other side with as little damage as possible".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 03:02 AM

That there is going to be a big rise in NHS funding is greatly to be welcomed. This is one thing Teresa May is reported to have said:

"In her BBC interview, Mrs May said the increase will exceed the £350m-a-week extra promised by Leave campaigners during the EU referendum campaign."

You may recall how the Leaver's on this thread and elsewhere have been adamant no such promise was ever made. It will be amusing to watch them now claim the promise is being fulfilled...

It is financial slight of hand and politics, of course. We may well end up paying for a Galileo substitute purely as consequence of Brexit. And that will have to be paid for. As will many other things we did not anticipate. I would say you need to have covered all of the costs of those first, before claiming the extra NHS funding is due to a Brexit dividend.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 03:10 AM

"You may recall how the Leaver's on this thread and elsewhere have been adamant no such promise was ever made. It will be amusing to watch them now claim the promise is being fulfilled..."

Ha! As my old mum used to say of those seeking to justify the unjustifiable, "Them buggers say owt but their prayers!".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 05:52 AM

"to ensure we come out the other side with as little "
That seems to be an acceptance that there will be damage" Nigel
Was't that a long time coming - though welcome, now it's arrived
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 05:58 AM

As Alastair Campbell said this morning, there is no brexit dividend coming. Brexit will cost the economy dearly for many years to come. Any increase for the NHS will be fully funded by tax increases. That's the honest way to do it and that's the only honest way of saying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 06:07 AM

Plenty of seats at the hotel Corbynista

https://www.thesun.co.uk/video/news/jeremy-corbyns-labour-live-festival-flops-with-empty-venues/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 06:23 AM

Very interesting, Teribus. But WTF does that have to do with 'Post Brexit life in the U.K.'? Sweet Fuck All, of course, it's just your standard obfuscation and Extreme-Right bollocks.

Anything to say about the promise on the side of the bus which you and your easily-bamboozled BrexShitter mates claimed didn't exist, but which That Horrible Woman is now pretending she's fulfilling?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 06:27 AM

That's hardly to do with Brexit, is it? I gather the figures of attendees were around 14,000 which is not large by festival standards but is somewhat more than George Freeman's Festival of Ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 06:31 AM

Bugger, missed 5,200!

Bear in mind that the Tories are busy getting the NHS ready for privatisation. Around 10% is already privatised, more is to come. I wonder whether the £20 billion will go to the non-privatised, or the privatised, part of the NHS?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 07:52 AM

Good to see the remainiacs having so much fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 08:25 AM

"Good to see the remainiacs having so much fun!"
I've just watched the Aquarius refugee ship dock in Spain being turned awy by right wing governments and being accepted by Spain's Socialists
It's hard not to remember that Brexit is based on keeping such needy people out, especially when you read the childishly snite comments here
Puts all this into perfect context, as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 12:31 PM

"to ensure we come out the other side with as little damage as possible"
That seems to be an acceptance that there will be damage" Nigel
Was't that a long time coming - though welcome, now it's arrived
Jim Carroll

I've never denied that Brexit may cause damage to the UK, or to our economy. I just believe that the benefits to be had will outweigh the costs (damages).

"Good to see the remainiacs having so much fun!"
I've just watched the Aquarius refugee ship dock in Spain being turned awy by right wing governments and being accepted by Spain's Socialists
It's hard not to remember that Brexit is based on keeping such needy people out, especially when you read the childishly snite comments here
Puts all this into perfect context, as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

The Aquarius was refused by Italy and Malta. The Maltese government is described as a social-democratic party.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 12:56 PM

"The Maltese government is described as a social-democratic party."
Described maybe - it's policy towards immigrants belies that
It sure ain't socialist - closer to May than it is to Corbyn - New Labour maybe

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 01:12 PM

So you are sticking to "may' for the first part? Most of remainers think 'will' would fit better. But no matter, we can still ask if 'may' means

- highly unlikely to
- unlikely to
- as likely as not
- more likely than not
- very likely to.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 01:26 PM

I've just watched the Aquarius refugee ship dock in Spain being turned awy by right wing governments and being accepted by Spain's Socialists

"The Maltese government is described as a social-democratic party."

Described maybe - it's policy towards immigrants belies that
It sure ain't socialist - closer to May than it is to Corbyn - New Labour maybe

So they're refusing to accept the refugees because of their political affiliations, and you can tell what their political affiliations are by watching how they deal with the refugees.
That seems a rather circular form of logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 01:47 PM

So you are sticking to "may' for the first part? Most of remainers think 'will' would fit better. But no matter, we can still ask if 'may' means

- highly unlikely to
- unlikely to
- as likely as not
- more likely than not
- very likely to.

May means may (modal verb expressing possibility). Just as Brexit means Brexit. If I had intended another meaning to it I could have used on of the phrases you offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 02:14 PM

I see. So you suggest you cannot make a judgement on whether damage in the first say six months after the leaving date is almost vanishing unlikely or almost certain.

Many people had a problem with ake, but I thought his position has some honesty. As I understand it was that leaving would cause all sorts of problems - perhaps financial, perhaps mass unemployment and so on - but, like surgery, it was a necessary pain to go through to be better off in the long run. That, to me was always a more sensible position than refusing to accept any downside, or refusing to face up it. Rather it said "There is a price to pay - this is the price - I will pay it."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 02:35 PM

"Just as Brexit means Brexit."
That seems to mean different things to different advocates Nigel
Perhaps when they get their act together they'll impart the true meaning to the rest of us
Meanwhile, we'll just have to sit back and enjoy the circus (and hope the tent doesn't catch fire)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 02:41 PM

As negotiation is still ongoing I cannot say with any degree of certainty what the possibility is of damage to the UK economy following Brexit. Nor can I put a value on the damage (if any).
Also I cannot put a hard cash value on the future benefits that I believe we will see once we are able to trade with the rest of the world on terms which we negotiate, rather than terms negotiated by the EU with a view to protecting their internal suppliers.
I can, however, state that it is my belief (shared by others) that the UK will be quite capable of dealing with world markets once we have escaped from the EU. We will also be responsible for our own laws.

Persons who are supposed to have a much greater knowledge of economics than I have have given their predictions. Those included predictions for the immediate post-brexit-vote period of massive increased unemployment, a £60bn hole in the UK's budget, and an immediate punitive budget to get us out of trouble.
Are you surprised that, having decided to ignore 'Project Fear' the first time, I am happy to see Brexit going ahead, and see nothing to fear from our current negotiations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 03:18 PM

as negotiation is still ongoing I cannot say with any degree of certainty what the possibility is of damage to the UK economy following Brexit.


Naturally, as the future is always unknown . And the past is often disputed. And the present is always confused and uncertain. We live in a world where requiring a degree of certainty is over ambitious most of the time.

So we have to live with judgements and balances of probability. We can do a little better by adding some assumptions. If the EU concedes on the NI border then estimate1; if the UK concedes a border in the sea then estimate2. And so on.

As long as we accept these are estimates, not accurate glimpses of the future, there is a lot that can be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 03:44 PM

"As negotiation is still ongoing I cannot say with any degree of certainty what the possibility is of damage to the UK economy following Brexit. Nor can I put a value on the damage (if any).
Also I cannot put a hard cash value on the future benefits that I believe we will see once we are able to trade with the rest of the world on terms which we negotiate, rather than terms negotiated by the EU with a view to protecting their internal suppliers.
I can, however, state that it is my belief (shared by others) that the UK will be quite capable of dealing with world markets once we have escaped from the EU. We will also be responsible for our own laws.

Persons who are supposed to have a much greater knowledge of economics than I have have given their predictions. Those included predictions for the immediate post-brexit-vote period of massive increased unemployment, a £60bn hole in the UK's budget, and an immediate punitive budget to get us out of trouble.
Are you surprised that, having decided to ignore 'Project Fear' the first time, I am happy to see Brexit going ahead, and see nothing to fear from our current negotiations."

And there it is, gentlemen, The Confession of a Wankpuffin - one of 17 million Wankpuffins - who voted for nothing, just a daft idea with absolutely no pre-determined plan, no hard facts, nothing concrete to offer, just a string of cliches and sound-bites, no clue of what the effects of the final outcome would be, and led by their noses by a bunch of charlatans who were doing the bidding of a tiny immensely-wealthy minority who wish to avoid the EU Tax-Avoidance Regulations coming into effect in May 2019, who bamboozled them with racist, xenophobic, nationalist drivel about 'Take Back Control' and 'control immigration', and who shat their boxers and ran for the hills when the awful truth that they'd actually won became clear the morning after the Referendum.

If it wasn't such a tragedy for the large majority of the population who didn't vote Leave, it would be absolutely hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 04:39 PM

"If it wasn't such a tragedy for the large majority of the population who didn't vote Leave, it would be absolutely hilarious."

I think we have demonstrated the stupidity of this argument frequently already. The remainiacs that don't get it are becoming exceedingly boring.Those enfranchised, that could be bothered to vote, voted in the majority to leave. Not a particularly difficult concept to grasp I would have thought? But a minority of loopy leftards refuse to accept democracy, rather like many democrats over the pond.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 04:51 PM

when did 'leftard' become a word? what exactly does it mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 04:56 PM

Teribus, I fully understand the difference between 'those who voted' and 'the population'. However, my assertation is perfectly, absolutely correct - a greater number of not only the U.K. population, but also the U.K. electorate, did not express a wish to leave the EU in the Referendum than those who did.

You really must stop disputing what I did not say, it's absolutely pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 07:53 PM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 04:56 PM
Teribus, I fully understand the difference between 'those who voted' and 'the population'. However, my assertation is perfectly, absolutely correct - a greater number of not only the U.K. population, but also the U.K. electorate, did not express a wish to leave the EU in the Referendum than those who did.
You really must stop disputing what I did not say, it's absolutely pointless.

Once again this misleading comment that:
a greater number of not only the U.K. population, but also the U.K. electorate, did not express a wish to leave the EU in the Referendum than those who did.

An even greater number of the UK population, and of the UK electorate, did not vote to remain.
Whether you look at the percentage of those who voted 'Leave' as a percentage of those who voted, or a percentage (of the population) who voted 'Leave' compared to the percentage (of the population) who voted 'remain'. the outcome will still be roughly 52 to 48.
Anyone who assumes that all those who didn't vote would have voted to remain is playing with figures which they have no chance of justifying.

There was a single referendum, and it was won by those who voted for 'Brexit'. Let's just get on with it.
Those who chose not to vote, for whatever reason, had the option to vote, but ignored their franchise. They ignore their franchise to vote, we can ignore their wishes (which we will never know) about what the outcome of the vote could have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 04:07 AM


There was a single referendum, and it was won by those who voted for 'Brexit'. Let's just get on with it.

I have no problem with the first sentence. However, the second relies on an understanding of what the 'it' we are getting on with is. For example, I have no idea if you believe(d) your 'Leave' vote was also a vote to leave the Galileo project, even if it may cost us billions to build our own. If you think it did - which I don't know - neither of us has any idea if that is what other people who voted leave intended. And we could make the same point for (probably) hundreds of other points of detail.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 04:08 AM

when did 'leftard' become a word? what exactly does it mean?

Collins Dictionary: a term for a person with left-wing political views [a blend of left and retard]
aka loopy left
Hope that helps!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 04:24 AM

"[a blend of left and retard]£"
I'm always amazed at the way you wear your rightism as a badge of honour while at the same time defending the way Britain did it's bit to suppress the worst examples of your own politics during the War
Nazi Germany was the natural product of German industrial capitalism - its victims were the Trades unionists and leftists you despise - thye went to their deaths alongside the Jews, Gypsies and those considered unfit for the new right-wing Germany
You defend the Trumps and Terry Robinsons of this world - the righetset of the right, and you gloat when the EU is threatened by neo-Fascist politicians
Historically, the left in Britain and Europe were among those who stood up to the monsters who tried to turn the world into your world
I have little problem when people holding your views sneer at my politics - I wouldn't have even if you do it with any skill, which, of course, you don't
Thank you for confirming that I've chosen the right side
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 04:42 AM

when did 'leftard' become a word? what exactly does it mean?

Collins Dictionary: a term for a person with left-wing political views [a blend of left and retard]
aka loopy left
Hope that helps!

The above may be misleading. I can't find that the word has been used in Collins' dictionaries. Their website shows that it was proposed as a new word in 2016, but is still 'pending investigation'.
Here
It appears from that page that anyone can suggest words for inclusion, even anonymously.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 05:07 AM

Why encourage that sort of mudslinging Nigel?
I thought you were better than that
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 05:15 AM

"I'm always amazed at the way you wear your rightism as a badge of honour while at the same time defending the way Britain did it's bit to suppress the worst examples of your own politics during the War"

The war was a tad before my time, however my father was an RAF pilot commissioned in 1938. What was yours?
And how can you presume to know my political stance?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 05:22 AM

Why encourage that sort of mudslinging Nigel?
I thought you were better than that
Jim Caarroll

What 'mudslinging'?
My latest post was pointing out that the term 'leftard' does not appear in the Collins Dictionary (contrary to an earlier claim). It is not a term I use.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 05:33 AM

"And how can you presume to know my political stance?"

There's plenty of evidence, on this forum, in your utterances under your current nom de plume, and under your previous one.

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 05:56 AM

Wot Baccie just said
Sorry if I misunderstood you Nigel - I assumed you were part of Iain's 'leftie" old usual
If not, I was mistaken
I'm not of any faith but I am rather fond of some biblical quotes

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. "

About time we all adhered to that one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 06:02 AM

BBC News just now - the cabinet have been called to 10 Downing Street this morning for an unscheduled meeting, in which they have been informed that taxes must go up.

Brexit Premium anybody?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 06:22 AM

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. "

When I became a father I found I spent half my time putting away childish things ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 06:33 AM

"I spent half my time putting away childish things"
I think I prefer yours now
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 07:20 AM

Thanks, Jim. Not really mine, but I can't remember where I nicked it from.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 07:26 AM

I don't know if that's an original from you Nigel, but it is an excellent quip. I have already passed it on!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 07:29 AM

Ah, always 'refresh' before posting :(

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 09:50 AM

There's no brexit dividend. See today's Guardian, among many others. Google "May's NHS 'Brexit dividend' claim draws scepticism and doubt" and scroll down to "quick guide."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 10:24 AM

I'm guessing that this Guardian is the article Steve means.

The Guardian appears to be adding its usual slant:

What about after the transition period?

The OBR said the UK’s £5bn rebate has already been “spent” ?on domestic priorities and cannot be spent again. The Institute for Fiscal Studies said in its assessment that the remaining £14bn could theoretically be redirected, but the government has already pledged to replace at least some EU spending (for example, farming subsidies) for some years, leaving an £8bn surplus. However, a reduction in GDP of just 1% translates to a fall in tax revenue of more than £8bn.


How much has GDP growth fallen?

The Bank of England said the trend rate of growth for the UK has fallen from around 2.5% to 1.5%, which matches the fall needed to wipe out the Brexit dividend. BoE governor Mark Carney said household incomes after adjusting for inflation were £900 lower than expected before the referendum vote.

The first large paragraph details the effect of a reduction in GDP. The second paragraph equates this with a reduction in the rate of growth of GDP. A 'reduced rise', is still a rise, it is not (except by very strange logic) a fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 11:27 AM

The Office for Budgetary Responsibility and the Institute for Fiscal Studies don't believe there will be a Brexit Dividend either.

But, of course, the BrexShit Bumpkins are fed up with experts who actually understand these things, and prefer to believe slogans on buses, and the bullshit of proven liars like Bozo, Haddock-Face, The Little Scottish Viper, and Maggie-May.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2018/06/there-no-brexit-dividend-spend-nhs

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 01:18 PM

Not clear how giving unadorned factual information is giving a slant...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 01:20 PM

As expected, the Lords has just approved a version of Dominic Grieve's amendment so that in the event of no deal, Parliament decides the next step rather than the Government. This will be debated on Wednesday and this time the rebels are not going to be willing to back down with a promise to change the bill to meet their plans " so don't vote against us, please."

Wednesday should be lively. Expect everyone who isn't in a coma to be wheeled into the House.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 03:31 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 01:18 PM
Not clear how giving unadorned factual information is giving a slant...

By appearing to correlate one piece of factual information with a second to which it bears no immediate correlation, as shown in the final line of my comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 09:00 PM

There is no slant, Nigel, and certainly no attempt to mislead. I suggest that you're looking at the piece through your usual Daily Mail eyes. If you look at straight factual intormation from a slanted position, you may fail to discern that it's you that's slanted and not the source you're criticising.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 03:52 AM

" Expect everyone who isn't in a coma to be wheeled into the House."
Like the beautiful ‘New Statesman’ description of the House of Lords' scuppering of the ‘Capital Punishment Abolition’ Bill in 1956”
“From the hills and forests of darkest Britain they came : the halt, the lame, the deaf, the obscure, the senile and the forgotten —the hereditary peers of England united in their determination to use their medieval powers to retain a medieval institution.”
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 06:21 AM

Steve.
I still see a definite slant (attempt to mislead by what is said, and what is left unsaid)
Perhaps it is your own preconceptions which prevent you from seeing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 06:40 AM

The piece dealt in facts only. Juxtapositions having hidden subversive relevance are all in your mind. You should take the Guardian more often, Nigel. Comment is free but facts are sacred.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 06:42 AM

Just as well there is nothing of significance going on today's Parliament that could affect the ability of the U.K. to negotiate (if you take one view), or clarify the constitution on the relationship between Parliament and Governement if you take the other)

So we can put all our effort into arguing whose 'beam-in-their-own-eye' is biggest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 08:50 AM

“From the hills and forests of darkest Britain they came : the halt, the lame, the deaf, the obscure, the senile and the forgotten —the hereditary peers of England united in their determination to use their medieval powers to retain a medieval institution.”

Wonderful! Let us have our rotten boroughs back as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 09:27 AM

I don't defend the manner in which the House of Lords is constituted, but as a point of information hereditary peers account for just 90 out of nearly 800 "lords."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:55 AM

I have always excused the house of lords on the basis of regarding them as on a par with jurors. It does not matter who they are, their educational background, or perceived standing in society. Their function is to nitpick over detail and presented facts, and unlike a jury they can throw back legislation for an improved draft to be presented.
It is the function that is crucial, not the form.

I cannot see a way of creating a second chamber that would be more egalitarian. There is a sufficiency of failed career politicians in the second chamber already.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 09:48 AM

EU response to US trade Tariffs

When someone first pointed out the new US tariffs, and blamed them on Theresa may I made the point that we wouldn't be able to deal with them, it would have to be a EU matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 12:50 PM

I don't remember that being said, Nigel, but if it was, it was clearly an error. Until we leave, it is an EU matter.   What happens after we leave is quite a different thing.

There was been an interesting article in The Spectator saying that asked as a hypothetical question, given the choice between leaving the EU and breaking up Britain, which is more important. It turned out most would break up Britain. And that has been argued for on this very thread, when it was claimed most leavers would be quite happy to see Northern Ireland out of the U.K.

It would be interesting to see what other the Leavers here think : Is preserving the UK more important than Brexit? It is admittedly, hypothetical at the moment, but may not remain so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 02:03 PM

the way that things are going in westminster (and trumpton) it looks ever more likely that the scots will be leaving the english to their shitty, narrow -minded and depressing brexit. good.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 02:31 PM

So Brexit means WEexit? It would not surprise me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:27 PM

There was been an interesting article in The Spectator saying that asked as a hypothetical question, given the choice between leaving the EU and breaking up Britain, which is more important. It turned out most would break up Britain. And that has been argued for on this very thread, when it was claimed most leavers would be quite happy to see Northern Ireland out of the U.K.

I believe The Spectator is a little more intelligent than to pose that question. The question was:
“If it were not possible to do both, which of the following would you choose to do? A) Leave the European Union or B) Keep England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales together in the United Kingdom?”

The choice was between leaving the EU and saving the UK, not between Leaving the EU and breaking up the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:33 PM

Oh dear Nigel.

Once again you are arguing semantics rather than addressing the actual issue.

Par for the course I'm afraid.

Oops ......... no I'm not actually afraid, but it is par for the course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:52 PM

Raggy,
Hardly semantics. The question as 'quoted' by DMcG was totally different to the hypothetical question discussed by The Spectator.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:54 PM

We need not argue semantics Nigel. You know Ashborne's question. How would you answer it?   Keith was quite able to do so, and since you have read the question your answer is already in your head, isn't it? It is really whether you can bring yourself to say so rather try to dodge.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:09 PM

I do accept, by the way, that i didnt report the question properly. Apologies, my mistake.

So let's stick to the question in the poll.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:09 PM

Given the hypothetical question: "Given the choice between leaving the EU and breaking up Britain, which is more important."
I would not be able to give a 100% answer without numerous caveats.

Leaving the EU is very important, and if we don't do it now, the only opportunity we've had since 1973, it may be a very long time before we get the opportunity again.
Keeping the UK together is also very important, if it wants to be kept together. Even without Brexit the Scots have had a referendum on separation, and the rest of the UK had no say in that referendum. That could happen again. It would be a shame if Brexit failed just because we wanted to retain Scotland, and the Scotland decided to leave at a later date.

Similarly with Northern Ireland. I would want to keep them as part of the UK, if that is also the wish of the majority of those who live there. If Jim Carroll is right in his claim that the majority of those in the North now favour a united Ireland it would again be a shame to lose Brexit when we may lose Northern Ireland anyway.

I don't honestly believe that Brexit will force a break up of the UK, although it may facilitate it if parts are already wishing to leave.
So, as it seems to be a one-off opportunity, my feeling would be for continuing with Brexit.

As the Spectator article says it is a hypothetical question. Being in favour of Brexit doesn't mean being in favour of the break-up of UK.

Would anyone else care to respond with their honest view of the question?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:11 PM

Sorry, I copied the question from the wrong source. The question I was answering was:

“If it were not possible to do both, which of the following would you choose to do? A) Leave the European Union or B) Keep England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales together in the United Kingdom?”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:16 PM

Well, of course, I would rather scrap Brexit. So obviously I would want to preserve the UK.

I don't think any deeper analysis is required.

Similarly, on the understanding Brexit is going ahead, I want the form that most keeps the UK united.

Having done that if the individual countries want to go their own way, that is their decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:10 AM

So the hypothetical question causes you no problems.
While on hypotheticals, what if the question was:
"If remaining in the EU was certain to lead to the break up of UK, either into its constituent countries, or by EU recommended regionalisation, would you favour Brexit to protect the integrity of the UK?"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:31 AM

"If remaining in the EU was certain to lead to the break up of UK, either into its constituent countries, or by EU recommended regionalisation, would you favour Brexit to protect the integrity of the UK?"

Fair enough, I'll have a go. I don't think it quite comparable, though, because we have been in the EU for a long time and the country has not broken up, whereas the status of NI in particular is a huge problem for Brexit.

When it comes down to it, in extremis, I have NO loyalty to speak of to the UK. I would not call myself patriotic. I haven't checked but I imagine 'patriotic' is derived from 'pater' and I recognise no abstract father that is the country. So I would stay in Europe.

Feel free to skip all the following, because the essential point is above, but this is to elaborate it.

I have little or no affinity to "King and Country". Growing up in Middlesbrough, my identity was 'Yorkshire' and that was far more relevant than anything else. In 1968 we were moved by political whim out of Yorkshire into Teesside with the full understanding that in a few years time - 1974 as it turned out - we would be moved again, this time into Cleveland. Now it would be absurd to suggest that was in any way formative, but it did make me more aware of the arbitrariness of regional labels. There is plenty about the UK I like a great deal, including a tolerance for others that, for its many shortcomings, is still better than many other countries. Through simply living in it I am adapted to the UK to such an extent that living anywhere else would be difficult. But, "in extremis", there are many other parts of the world I could move to with little regret. That includes virtually everywhere in Europe but also a good many other places.

So I have little allegiance to my nation state. What I do see is that issues - for the sake of generic term - need to be addressed at an appropriate level. If you are bothered by litter, you need to be hassling the local council, not the national government or the EU. Climate change, on the other hand, needs to be addressed at a level higher than even groups of states like the EU. I also see that over the last hundred years or so multinationals have outstripped the control of individual governments. All this stuff about the big companies avoiding tax and so on is real and it arises because it is beyond the control of any individual country. When a country says it cannot tax a business because they would move elsewhere, it is acknowledging its lack of sovereignty over that company.   The control of such companies is arguably growing beyond the control of groups of countries like the EU, but it is well beyond any individual one. All the cries of 'sovereignty' miss the fact that so much of our life is decided by multinational companies. The EU is one multinational deciding things: it is one out of dozens - and just about the only one we have direct influence over.

In that context there are issues that need to be addressed at the local level, others at the national, others at the international and others at the global level. My support for my nation state is really that it just another level at which it is suitable to address some issues. I have no loyalty to a country: I have a desire that problems are solved and the country is an appropriate level for some of them.

So getting back to the question more directly: Losing the UK as a group would be losing one such level, and I would oppose it. But not at the cost of losing levels I regard as more important.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:38 AM

The latest statements from Airbus seem to be somewhat similar to my stance: They have obligations to their shareholders and other 'stakeholders'. That's it. They have no interest in the UK, or pro-Brexit or anti-Brexit except in so far as it affects the shareholders. Obviously, the less change, the lower their costs of adapting, so their most likely stance would be 'stay as we are', but their main obligation at the moment is to convince their shareholders that they are ready and prepared for all eventualities. Which they are doing. Moreover, while it might suit the government to play brinkmanship all the way to March 2019 with the deal-or-no-deal undecided - and if we 'no-deal' that means no transition - that does not suit companies that have to live with the consequences. So they may well begin the transitions based on what is said in October. Meanwhile, "EU is getting ready for no-deal, says Jean-Claude Juncker".

And the only answer to this, from the Brexit supporters I have read on line are things like "it's all a bluff", "Someone else will take over", "Doesn't matter: people will find jobs elsewhere"

Depressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:20 PM

So now BMW along with Airbus are seeking some clear information about post Brexit in the UK.

There is a distinct possibilty that both companies could move their operations elsewhere with the possible loss of 22,000 jobs.

Is this the rosy future that Brexiteers promised us?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:23 PM

"Weer taking are cuntry back", Raggy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:24 PM

I seem to remember that there were a lot of leavers before the vote saying that German car manufacturers would all be pressuring the EU to fit in with whatever Britain wanted.

Odd, that. Must have dreamt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 01:17 PM

ANOTHER FINE MESS STANLEY

DID YOU SEE THE SIZE OF THAT DEMO?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 02:27 PM

So Boris Johnson has urged the prime minister to deliver a “full British Brexit”.

I wish he would elaborate what he means. A “full British Brexit even if that should end up splitting the UK”-kind of Brexit, which neither Keith nor Nigel want, but would accept if it came to it?

A “full British Brexit even if it turns out Airbus are not bluffing and we do lose tens of thousands of jobs and £1.7billion in tax revenues”-kind of Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 03:07 PM

"So Boris Johnson has urged the prime minister to deliver a “full British Brexit”."

HE PROBABLY MEANT "FULL BREAKFAST"

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 12:53 PM

DMcG,
I seem to remember that there were a lot of leavers before the vote saying that German car manufacturers would all be pressuring the EU to fit in with whatever Britain wanted.

Odd, that. Must have dreamt it.


You did. We might have said that German car manufacturers want a free trade deal, and they do.
They no doubt are pressuring the EU to agree one, as we said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 01:06 PM

- and it really was a kitten after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 04:04 PM

Not a unicorn?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 04:08 PM

With just a 37% vote (across the electorate) for Brexit there is no way anyone can claim it has a majority, or is the 'will of the people'. 52% of voters wanted to leave, but over 16m voters didn't. May cannot keep saying it is a substantial will of the people of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 04:16 PM

More substantial will of the people than ever expressed in any vote in British history for anything.
Your reasoning would invalidate every election ever held!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 06:46 PM

The referendum was not an election. This confusion that routinely arises during discussions of the two processes' outcomes is unhelpful and is based on a false premise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 09:44 PM

For once, correct. The referendum was not an election. It was a referendum on whether or not to leave the European Union. The nation got the RIGHT answer. Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 02:48 AM

INTERESTING REVELATION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 03:24 AM

Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else, Stanron, knows if they got the right answer. I am not even sure how we would decide what the right answer was. It is definitely not as simple as maximising trade regardless of the impact on citizens.

All you really mean is it gave the answer you agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:18 AM

Pedant Steve,
The referendum was not an election.

Delete "Your reasoning would invalidate every election ever held! "
Insert Your reasoning applied to elections would invalidate any ever held!"

DMcG,
All you really mean is it gave the answer you agree with.

And all your criticisms just mean you disagree the answer.
Too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:36 AM

"For once, correct"

Once more than you ever are. Patronising git.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:47 AM

Do we need abusive terms like "git?"
Why resort to it in what should be a reasoned discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:57 AM

"For once, correct" forms no part of any "reasoned discussion" I've ever experienced.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:09 AM

Another juicy extract from Stanron's contribution to this "reasoned discussion:"

"The nation got the RIGHT answer. Get over it."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:12 AM

Nothing abusive there Steve.
No-one called you a nasty name so why do you resort to it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:31 AM

Two years gone, nine months to go, no progress, still talking about no deal, major manufacturers demurring, no answer for the border issue that leavers scarcely seemed to have thought of pre-referendum. Oh yes, those 38% made "the right decision" all right, didn't they? Let's have the "reasoning" behind that sage point of view, eh? That's the whole trouble with all you leavers. Little England sailing bravely off into mid-Atlantic replaced all reasoning. Still, never mind. I'm sure Trump will give us all those nice tariff-free trade deals we're hoping for.

Right decision my arse!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:35 AM

I presume you are a tad upset people had the temerity to vote to leave?(and won!)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:36 AM

38%

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:41 AM

It is a long and winding road! But has been travelled repeatedly and the fallacious argument rebutted innumerable times.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:46 AM

And I challenge you to support Stanron's assertion that the country made the RIGHT decision (and that I should get over it). Give me the reasoning behind that statement of certainty. Tell me what Good Things have come from the decision to leave and what Good Things are definitely still to come. I said definitely. That's what he's saying: the country made the RIGHT decision. Tell me how you think he knows that. He didn't say possibly, maybe, probably or hopefully. This is supposedly a reasoned discussion, so let's hear the reasoning behind his certainties, please. I suppose I shouldn't hold my breath. I have tall hedges to cut in this heat. I may get bad-tempered later on. Get over it. Maybe in these reasoned discussions we should end every post, patronisingly, with "get over it."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:47 AM

38% is a fact, not an argument. Get over it. .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:50 AM

I am not upset. I am a tad disappointed that the majority of people that voted fell for the fallacious arguments put by the likes of Farage, Johnson and Gove to put their own prejudices above the well being of everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:21 AM

I am not upset. I am a tad disappointed that the majority of people that voted fell for the fallacious arguments put by the likes of Farage, Johnson and Gove to put their own prejudices above the well being of everyone else.
That pre-supposes that those who voted leave did so in response to the arguments of Farage, Johnson & Gove. Many of us (I believe) wanted to get out of the EU long before those three started pontificating.

Do you also believe that those who voted remain only did so because of the fallacies put forward by 'Project Fear'?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:25 AM

That pre-supposes that those who voted leave did so in response to the arguments of Farage, Johnson & Gove.

No it doesn't. Those that voted leave must have agreed with those arguments as they were the ones put forward. Either that or they simply voted on a whim. Surely not???

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:35 AM

Not on a 'whim' but in the belief that the future of the UK should not be dictated by the EU.
If you had read the rest of my response you would have seen that I went on to say: "Many of us (I believe) wanted to get out of the EU long before those three started pontificating".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:42 AM

Steve,
Two years gone, nine months to go, no progress, still talking about no deal, major manufacturers demurring, no answer for the border issue that leavers scarcely seemed to have thought of pre-referendum. Oh yes, those 38% made "the right decision" all right, didn't they? Let's have the "reasoning" behind that sage point of view, eh? That's the whole trouble with all you leavers. Little England sailing bravely off into mid-Atlantic replaced all reasoning.

Right decision my arse! And I challenge you to support Stanron's assertion that the country made the RIGHT decision

People here are just asserting their opinions.
Only history can decide who is right.
Until we have left there is no way of knowing.
As of now we do not even know what the deal will be, so stop being so abusive to people who dare to hold a different opinion to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:56 AM

38% is a fact, not an argument. Get over it.

No, 38% is not a fact. It is some form of numerical expression.
If you wish to relate that 38% to something, it may well give factual information, but on its own it remains a numerical expression.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:11 AM

There is a difference between an opinion which accepts it may be mistaken but brings all the data in it can (such as forecasts and analyses and statements from businesses and other governments) in an attempt to be as confident of its correctness as possible, and an opinion which admits no doubt and offers no evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:19 AM

Do the nuances matter a damm? An opinion is merely an opinion. Nothing more, nothing less!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:23 AM

There is a difference between an opinion which accepts it may be mistaken but brings all the data in it can (such as forecasts and analyses and statements from businesses and other governments) in an attempt to be as confident of its correctness as possible, and an opinion which admits no doubt and offers no evidence.

Yes, and that is how I confirmed my belief that voting Leave was the best thing to do.
I imagine you would also say that that is how you decided to vote Remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:26 AM

DMcG wrote: Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else, Stanron, knows if they got the right answer.

Is it me, or is everyone else stupid?

It was a referendum. It put a question to the public and got an answer. By the very nature of a referendum that answer, whatever it turned out to be, is RIGHT. Your attempts to prove the answer 'wrong' are laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:30 AM

If it suits the argument the leftards will make 2+2=5

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:45 AM

I think the answer, Stanron, is that I am interpreting 'right' in the sense of 'in the best interests of the country'. No other "rightness" matters to me.

Nigel: I am sure many people looked for as much evidence as they could before the vote, and completely accept you did so.

But I was referring more to "get over it' stance which will not seriously consider any forecasts or analysis or warnings from business or other countries like Japan that have occurred after the vote: all stoutly ignored by the Leavers.

Let me offer a bargain. I freely admit, here and now, that I might be completely wrong and Brexit could turn out to be the best thing the country has ever done. I will, however, be able to take some comfort in how well everyone is doing.

Now, is any leaver prepared to admit they might be wrong and Brexit could turn out to be one of the worst things Britain has ever done?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:07 AM

DMcG,
Now, is any leaver prepared to admit they might be wrong and Brexit could turn out to be one of the worst things Britain has ever done?

Of course, and I believe I have said that in my own words, but I am strongly of the opinion that even though there will be costs, it is the best option for the long term benefit of this country.

Only history can decide who is right.
Until we have left there is no way of knowing.
As of now we do not even know what the deal will be, so let's not be abusive to people just for holding a different opinion.

all the data in it can (such as forecasts and analyses and statements from businesses and other governments)

Forecasts and analysis of what? We do not have a deal to analyse yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:14 AM

If Europe does not drop it's bullying posturing and idle threats we are likely to walk away. This has zero benefit for anyone. Every threat from the EU can be countered by one of equal severity from the UK.
The EU is scared to negotiate because others may be queuing up behind.
A federalist dream for some europeans is a nightmare for others. It should have remained EFTA. The extra bells and whistles are a cacophony.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:27 AM

I don't think you have, Keith. I am aware you accept we might a few years of paying over the odds and then move on to bright and glorious future. I don't know anywhere you have recognised if you are wrong that nirvana might not exist, ever. But free to do so now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:27 AM

"Not on a 'whim' but in the belief that the future of the UK should not be dictated by the EU."

Which is a tragically mistaken belief. The EU dictates nothing. Policies are made by the member states' elected representatives with methods just as democratic as any policies made in tbe UK by the UK government. And we have a veto over the more important decisions in any case. For example, there is no EU army because the UK has vetoed it. "Being dictated to by the EU" was one of the biggest lies of the leave campaign (optional add-on: "by unelected bureaucrats", an even bigger lie). It's a lie that I see you are still falling for. Unfortunately, that deficit in your education and that of millions of others, which was so easily exploited by the ruthless liars of the leave campaign, is the reason we are in this unholy and incurable mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:29 AM

Now, is any leaver prepared to admit they might be wrong and Brexit could turn out to be one of the worst things Britain has ever done?

My vote may have been cast for the wrong option. There is always a possibility that Brexit will not be of long term benefit to the UK, but I don't believe that will be the case.

As to "one of the worst things Britain has ever done", what are we comparing it with?
Empire building
Slavery
Trying to quell uprisings in our colonies (including America)
Attacking Germany
Turning Australia into a penal colony
Inventing sports so that other countries can feel superior to us
There's so much to choose from.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:33 AM

Only history can decide if we were right. Not Stanron (so get over it, Stanron). Only history written by living historians in the last 30 years in books on the shelves of reputable bookshops, presumably. Geoffrey Wheatcroft will supply a list of valid ones if we ask him nicely. We don't want none of them vulgar, fraudulent buggers involved, do we?

I prefer a more interventionist approach than waiting for "history" to decide. We can't afford to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:38 AM

Only history can decide if we were right. Not Stanron (so get over it, Stanron). Only history written by living historians in the last 30 years in books on the shelves of reputable bookshops, presumably

Books written in the last 30 years will be able to tell us whether the decision to leave the EU was correct?
That is an amazing idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:38 AM

DMcG,
I don't think you have, Keith. I am aware you accept we might a few years of paying over the odds and then move on to bright and glorious future. I don't know anywhere you have recognised if you are wrong that nirvana might not exist, ever. But free to do so now.


I do, and I believe I have already said that in my own words, but I am strongly of the opinion that even though there will be costs, it is the best option for the long term benefit of this country.


Steve,
It's a lie that I see you are still falling for.

So anyone who disagrees with you is just a gullible dupe.

I put DMcG's question to you in reverse,
"Now, is any other Remainer prepared to admit they might be wrong and Brexit could turn out to be one of the best things Britain has ever done, or not too bad at least?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:43 AM

If Europe does not drop it's bullying posturing and idle threats we are likely to walk away. This has zero benefit for anyone

You may read the entrails differently, but it looks much more likely to me the UK will be locked out of the room with a no-deal the only thing on the table unless they come back with something sensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:47 AM

Free trade is the sensible option.
It benefits everyone. EU's objections are purely political and not for the benefit of its citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:53 AM

You may read the entrails differently, but it looks much more likely to me the UK will be locked out of the room with a no-deal the only thing on the table unless they come back with something sensible.

I don't think that will happen. If there's 'no deal' then we walk away with WTO regulations, no extended period for the changeover, no payment of £39bn to leave. Do you honestly believe that the EU will let it come to that?

Personally I see that range of options as quite appealing compared with some of the alternatives. "No deal is better than a bad deal".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:53 AM

With no deal the EU will have about £320 billion of goods each year looking for another home

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:16 AM

I don't say the EU want a no-deal either. I am saying who threatens who with it isn't that straightforward. Since both would lose by it, it is by no means just a UK weapon.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:19 AM

I have always said I would be more than happy to be proved wrong about brexit. This thread has always offered the opportunity for the leavers (or in Iains's parlance, rightards) to offer a glimmer of hope for a bright future. To date any forecast providing such assurances has been spectacularly absent. The only reliable forecasts, including by every major financial organisation, every school of economics and every notable economist has told us it will be an unmitigated disaster. Who should I believe? Everyone who has seriously studied business and economics or the mudcatters who are full of optimism but cannot explain why?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:26 AM

What forecasts based on a good trade deal have "told us it will be an unmitigated disaster."
How could it be?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:33 AM

Just read Nigel's list of possible "worst things". There's a whole mixture of stuff there, but a remarkable proportion of them arose where we we thought trade overrode all other matters. Incidental stuff like people's rights, for example.

Which is one reason worrying about trade deals and nothing else is an alarm signal to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:36 AM

Who should I believe? Everyone who has seriously studied business and economics
If those people include those who also told us that a vote to leave would cause an immediate recession, a £60bn black hole in our finances, unemployment for thousands, and an immediate emergency budget, then it's up to you if you wish to trust their views this time around.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:39 AM

UK led the world in human rights before we joined EU.
We have our own safeguards. Why assume we are incapable of safeguarding human rights for ourselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:53 AM

That was Cameron, Osbourne and co, Nigel. I trust them even less than I trust your groundless, to date, optimism.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 10:07 AM

Why assume we are incapable of safeguarding human rights for ourselves?

Well, "Windrush" shows we can spend a long time abusing people's rights, even if in that case we are getting it sorted now. But I for one question whether we would have without a notable anniversary. And there appear to be similar cases which are similar but lack the convenience of a media label.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 10:08 AM

Overuse of 'similar' there. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 12:24 PM

Did EU play any part in Windrush case DMcG?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 01:14 PM

Ah, Keith. And you were playing (fairly) nicely for a while. Don't slip back into old habits.

I was not suggesting the EU had anything to do with Windrush. I was responding to "Why assume we are incapable of safeguarding human rights for ourselves". That is a general comment about our own ability to police ourselves. A response to it just needs to be about our shortcomings in that area, not a litany of praise to the ECJ.

However, if you need an example involving the EU, we could look at the UK-ECJ record on air pollution. I leave you free to look up and read the rulings for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 03:00 PM

Many people consider that the UK government has spent much,if not all, of the past two years blithering and blustering about our future trade arrangements.

Today an article in the Guardian poses questions from foreign businness with operations in the UK asking for clarification (this after Airbus and BMW)

I would conisder that we should have serious concerns about our future.

Could some kind person kindly link to the article entitled "Foreign Businness to UK"

Cheers

PS Any good news about Brexit yet

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 03:15 PM

Is this it?

Interesting hearing Grayling tonight trying to keep a distance from Boris' F-----amous remark about business.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:14 PM

That's the one DMcG. thank you for linking it.

It does make quite serious reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:04 PM

PS Any good news about Brexit yet,

Yes. The remainiacs have not managed to sabotage the process yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:18 PM

No NI border proposal for another month.

Place your bets on a proposal within a month that meets the December commitments now.

It was expecially amusing that the reason for the meeting was so we could explain the "sensitivities" of Northern Ireland. You would have thought someone might have mentioned it in the last two years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:44 PM

Someone must be hiding the details of the deal. Very funny
Hand it over already. Anybody?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 03:33 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:18 PM

No NI border proposal for another month.

To be polite I would describe that as disingenuous, at the very least.
"No NI border proposal". There have already been proposals put forward, which have been dismissed by the EU, who are not interested in finding a solution as it will remove a point of leverage.
"No further NI border proposal" might be more accurate, if somewhat less hard-hitting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 03:35 AM

surely the point of human rights is that no country is capable of ever deciding on these for themselves - they must be subject to a 'jury' of other nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 04:21 AM

"With no deal the EU will have about £320 billion of goods each year looking for another home"

Twaddle, and you know it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 04:37 AM

DMcG,
I was not suggesting the EU had anything to do with Windrush. I was responding to "Why assume we are incapable of safeguarding human rights for ourselves"

How does Windrush show we ae incapable of safeguarding human rights without EU control?
We managed human rights very well before joining. We led the world on it as far back as 1215.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 04:49 AM

Twaddle, and you know it!

We are a major market for them, bigger than any non-member country.
Loss of free trade would hurt them too.
German car makers, already low from diesel gate, can ill afford to lose market share here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 05:38 AM

"With no deal the EU will have about £320 billion of goods each year looking for another home"

Actually I was wrong the figure for 2017 was £347billion.

If you wish to dispute the parliamentary figures for EU exports to the UK let's be having your sources as you like to say!
With no deal who is to say if that export market will be untouched?

Dismissing the idea as twaddle is a typical lefty ostrich impersonation, hoping the problem will go away if ignored long enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 07:43 AM

No keith, I am not playing that game. I said "Incidental stuff like people's rights, for example" which you chose to restrict to human rights and ignore all other examples like air pollution. And now you want to delve into the ramifications of Runnymede, apparently.

I perhaps made an error in not pointing out those shifts in topic in my first reply to you, but as I said you seemed to be interested in discussion rather than point scoring so I let it go by.


Sorry, not playing along.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 07:51 AM

So, Iains, you think that EU imports will shrink from £347 billion to nil if there's no deal. That's the upshot of what you said, and therein lies the twaddle. I'm not quibbling with your numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 08:07 AM

To think it would shrink to nil would be unrealistic and the ultimate nightmare scenario, but it remains a theoretical possibility. To think certain market share would take a hammering is entirely reasonable, should agreement not be reached. EU exports to the UK are roughly 3:2 versus imports.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 08:30 AM

"With no deal the EU will have about £320 billion of goods each year looking for another home"

So you agree, do you, that this piece of hyperbole is nonsensical? Particularly with regard to the use of "will have"? Can't begin to imagine wot you and Nige would have said had I typed something like that. Mind you, it fits quite well, philosophically speaking, with your bus message...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 08:47 AM

It seems to be quibble whether putting forward something that you know, without any input from the EU does not meet what you agreed to in December. I think that is not a genuine proposal, but if you want to say it is, who cares? It does not change that the proposal the UK will put forward will be after the Brussels meeting, not before it.

Believe it or not, the EUs primary interest is what it thinks is in the best long term interest of the EU, including trade and social and political aspects. Suggesting it is only doing so to pressurise the UK is real "Fog in the channel, continent cut off" thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 08:54 AM

That was really garbled. Best to ignore it I think.

Using my phone for mudcat posts is really tricky and can lead to posts before i am ready.

I really should refrain and wait until i can use my iPad or desktop. Apologies, all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 11:54 AM

"Believe it or not, the EUs primary interest is what it thinks is in the best long term interest of the EU, including trade and social and political aspects. Suggesting it is only doing so to pressurise the UK is real "Fog in the channel, continent cut off" thinking."

BINGO!

I find it astonishing, every time I hear the BrexShit brigade spluttering and frothing about the EU 'frustrating' the BrexShit negotiations, that they can't or won't get it into their heads that it's not the responsibility of the EU to give us the best possible deal - it's their responsibility to give the 27 the best possible deal.

If that means the UK doesn't get a deal, or gets a crap deal, that's just tough shit! You won, get over it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 01:55 PM

it's not the responsibility of the EU to give us the best possible deal - it's their responsibility to give the 27 the best possible deal.

Completely agree, but a free trade deal would be the best possible deal for us all.

Believe it or not, the EUs primary interest is what it thinks is in the best long term interest of the EU, including trade and social and political aspects.

I do believe that, but I do not believe their negotiators are acting on that. If we made a success of Brexit it would reflect badly on the EU and they seem willing to take a hit themselves to prevent that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 02:55 PM

apologies if someone has posted before but:

I do think this is   in bad taste

and caconyms should be spelled with a "k".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 04:29 PM

"You won, get over it!"

Bloody brilliant, John, you've got the idea!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 06:18 PM

including trade and social and political aspects

Do we really have to get down to counting?

Trade .. 1 thing
Social .. 2 things
Political .. 3 things

a free trade deal would be the best possible deal for us all.

Trade .. 1 thing

No sign of two things the EU sees as important. So no, the assertion that trade is the best thing 'for us all' simply shows an inability to put yourself in their position.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:07 AM

We are already aligned on social and political matters, so no problem there.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 05:47 AM

All the negotiations so far have been about money and trade.
No 2 or 3 discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 01:07 PM

A few organisations reporting Brexit concerns in the past couple of days:


Doctors

Banks (even though this one is EU not doing enough - it is still a Brexit induced problem

CBI and Unions jointly concerned

Car Industry

Yes, there is a lot of worry that business is being well and truly Borissed.

Still, we can offset that with unremitting hope, can't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 01:19 PM

Sadly DMcG hope is all that the Brexiteers have been able to offer us so far.

No in depth analysis, no reasoned forecasts, no positive predictions, even the 58 studies that were carried out by the government we are told do not exist.

Every text I have seen has been in the negative, every text.

Any good news about Brexit yet, anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 01:39 PM

And, having voted for nothing more than 'a hope', those muppets have the brass neck to heap scorn on those of us who voted for the solid, factual status quo.

So stupid they don't even have the wit to realise how stupid they are. Still, the 1% who'll be able to continue offshoring will be pleased.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 02:30 PM

So stupid they don't even have the wit to realise how stupid they are.
I assume by your learned contributions to this thread that you were standing in front of a mirror to generate your latest missive.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 03:45 PM

"I assume by your learned contributions to this thread that you were standing in front of a mirror to generate your latest missive."

And, on the basis of that little gem, my case rests.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:00 PM

And is that your best case, Iains, to reassure the businesses I listed?

Don't forget to reassure Ferrovial as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 02:54 AM

A recent graffito I saw was:

Brexshite


So do we, in polite company, counter the word "remoaners" with "brexshitters" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:03 AM

There is no need, Mr Red. The leave supporters on here use the phrases 'remoaners' and 'leftards' because they have no decent arguments. The remain supporters have the backing of every economic and business analysis we have seen so far and have no need to resort to puerile name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:32 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:03 AM
There is no need, Mr Red. The leave supporters on here use the phrases 'remoaners' and 'leftards' because they have no decent arguments. The remain supporters have the backing of every economic and business analysis we have seen so far and have no need to resort to puerile name calling.

You may not demean yourself, but that is not true of all the remain supporters here. For example, just 14 posts earlier:

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 11:54 AM

"Believe it or not, the EUs primary interest is what it thinks is in the best long term interest of the EU, including trade and social and political aspects. Suggesting it is only doing so to pressurise the UK is real "Fog in the channel, continent cut off" thinking."
BINGO!
I find it astonishing, every time I hear the BrexShit brigade spluttering and frothing about the EU 'frustrating' the BrexShit negotiations, that they can't or won't get it into their heads that it's not the responsibility of the EU to give us the best possible deal - it's their responsibility to give the 27 the best possible deal.
If that means the UK doesn't get a deal, or gets a crap deal, that's just tough shit! You won, get over it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 04:17 AM

I predict a slump for sterling, cuurency speculators will make a lot of money

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 04:49 AM

Nigel

Brexshit is a corruption of Brexit - An inanimate concept

Remoaners is a corruption of remainers - remainers are real people. Not an inanimate concept.

Worse still, leftards is an amalgam of left and retard. A truly horrendous term abusing not only the left wing but those with learning difficulties.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 05:01 AM

"Worse still, leftards is an amalgam of left and retard"
Dave
You can always take comfort from the fact that the braindead who uses it most persistently is a Tommy Robinson, Donald Trump supporter who believes refugee=terrorist and survivors of the Grenfell fire should have been left to sleep in the park rather than allow them the use of vacant private property (the school of thought that sent six million Jews to their untimely and appalling deaths and filled Santiago Stadium with students ready to be raped, tortured and massacred)
You need to consider where this insult is coming from and embrace it as a compliment
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 05:03 AM

DMcG,
A few organisations reporting Brexit concerns in the past couple of days:

Of course they do. There is uncertainty about what the deal will be. That is all they are concerned about.


Rag,
Sadly DMcG hope is all that the Brexiteers have been able to offer us so far.

Not all. The economy is doing OK despite all the predictions of doom from the Remain campaign that turned out to be false.

Backwoodsman, are you prepared to accept the possibility that you might be wrong as DtG, DMcG and I have (though not Steve.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 05:07 AM

I have not the slightest bit of remorse about using the word 'BrexShit' to describe the unholy mess the Leave voters have landed us in. Why should I? Their frequent usage of expressions such as, "We won, get over it!", "Snowflake", "Leftard", etc. demonstrates their contempt for the large majority of the electorate who did not vote to leave the EU. My utter contempt for BrexShitters simply matches their contempt for those of us who voted for substance, not just airy-fairy 'hope', oft-parroted slogans, and lies on buses.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 05:18 AM

DMcG,
A few organisations reporting Brexit concerns in the past couple of days:

Of course they do. There is uncertainty about what the deal will be. That is all they are concerned about.

They are concerned whether there will be a deal at all. Whatever is or not decided they are concerned how that affects their financial plans as reported to shareholders. They are worried the shareholders might not think they are taking the right decisions. They are concerned whether it is better as a company or not to relocate. They are worried about the risks of taking the wrong decision. They are worried that the wider ramifications like possible delays at ports might require them to change JIT processes that are key to how their business runs and to invest heavily in warehousing with its concomitant costs. And on and on.

And you say that is 'all they are worried about'. I put it to you that is quite a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 06:00 AM

If things continue in the shambolic manner that they have so far terms like "Brexshitter" will be equivalent to insulting the victims of a giant hoax - everybody will have been a victim
Shame on you Baccie :-(

The major harm to Britain has been inflicted already - the system we live under relies on being able to plan ahead - our economic and social future has become a suicidal LEAP IN THE DARK
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 06:06 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 05:01 AM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aSiJzaoOgs

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 06:33 AM

Sorry Jim - can't open your link without a subscription.

Still, I find it interesting that you post a, presumably, serious and relevant article while a major brexiteer posts a link to a childrens nursery rhyme. Sort of underlines the point :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 06:44 AM

"If things continue in the shambolic manner that they have so far terms like "Brexshitter" will be equivalent to insulting the victims of a giant hoax - everybody will have been a victim"

No Jim, it's a very intentional insult against the perpetrators of that giant hoax, and those feeble-minded enough to continue to defend those foul hoaxers, including on this thread, even as the disaster unfolds before them

And here's the hoax...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 06:51 AM

"Sorry Jim - can't open your link without a subscription."
I usually cant - this time I was able to - I'll see what I can do

"link to a children's nursery rhymes"
Like his ability to control his childishly insulting behaviour - a handy guage to measure his intellectual level
Embrace it as handy information
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 07:03 AM

Not the same, but from the same source, more to the point and far less verbose
Maybe Iains can get someone to read it for him (a passing by eight-year-old perhaps)
Jim

The Economist Jun 21st 2018
FOR some time Britain’s vote in June 2016 to leave the European Union appeared to be having little economic impact. Sterling slumped but GDP growth in the second half of 2016 was faster than in the first. Unemployment fell, rather than jumping, as most economists had feared. Yet the notion that the economy would escape Brexit uncertainty was always fantastical.
Britain’s economy has gone from a leader to a laggard internationally, as GDP growth has slowed sharply (see chart). As The Economist went to press, the monetary-policy committee (MPC) of the Bank of England was expected to leave its benchmark interest rate on hold at 0.5%. The economy is deemed too weak to cope with higher borrowing costs.
A few factors explained the economy’s outperformance in the immediate aftermath of the referendum. The government eased fiscal austerity. In August 2016 the Bank of England cut interest rates to 0.25%. Happily, around the same time the world economy entered its first synchronised upswing since the global financial crisis. Britain is an open economy. Its exporters have benefited from strong foreign demand, especially from the European Union, by far the country’s largest trading partner.
The economic impact of the vote for Brexit is turning out to be less of a sting and more of an ache. Sterling’s referendum-induced decline has made imports pricier. Annual inflation exceeded wage growth for most of 2017. Although inflation has fallen from its recent peak of 3.1%, real wages are still barely growing. Today the average employee’s pay packet is roughly 3% smaller than might reasonably have been expected in June 2016, when real wages were moving up. Brexiteers who emphasised how much Britain allegedly pays to the EU will be interested to learn that, across the whole economy, that adds up to around £350m a week in lost earnings. Growth in household spending, which accounts for some 60% of GDP, has slowed.
That has duly made its mark on overall economic growth. In the first quarter of 2018 GDP rose by just 0.1%, the slowest rate since 2012. Poor weather at the start of the year hit the construction industry but overall had only a “limited” effect on the economy, according to the national statistics office. Perhaps more importantly, the world economy is slowing. Britain’s exports have dropped for the past two quarters.
The MPC’s decision in November to reverse its post-referendum rate cut, which was motivated by a desire to bring inflation back down to its 2% target, has not helped matters. The prospect of rising borrowing costs may have made the public more cautious. More than half of Britons believe that a further tightening of monetary policy is on the way, the biggest share since 2011. Some households seem inclined to pay down debt or save, rather than spend. Business investment has stagnated, which may also reflect the fact that the moment when Britain is actually due to leave the EU is fast approaching.
Many economists are now wondering whether Britain is heading for outright recession. Some recent surveys have not been encouraging. After a strong performance in 2017, manufacturing output appears to be falling. Retail sales have picked up—but they are poorly correlated with overall consumer spending. All told, it does not seem pessimistic to expect quarterly GDP growth of a meagre 0.1-0.2% in the second quarter of 2018.
There is little chance of the economy bouncing back soon. Consumer confidence remains low. Businesses have only modest plans for investment in the coming months. In 2018-19 the government appears to be ramping austerity up again as it seeks to close its budget deficit despite a new promise to spend more on the health service. Britain seems to be trapped in a period of low growth. And Brexit has not even happened yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 07:08 AM

For those who insist that all the gloomy news is just speculation

Brexit Has Already Cost the U.K. More than Its EU Budget Payments

It gets worse by the day. Still weer talking owr cuntry back.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 07:36 AM

For those who insist that all the gloomy news is just speculation

Brexit Has Already Cost the U.K. More than Its EU Budget Payments

It is just speculation.
They are not giving a comparison based on any actual figures, but on their speculation on where we would have been if the country had decided to remain in the EU.

I think the term 'speculation' is an excellent description of the linked article.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 07:41 AM

On this question of admitting we could be wrong. There is a substantial gap between saying "I was wrong" and "I was right but it was all wrecked by remainers/the Eu/cowardice of May/ judges betraying the people ..."

It is an unequivocal "I was wrong and accept some measure of personal responsibility for any ill effects" that I sought. I feel we are still some way from that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 07:43 AM

I think this statement belies that, Nigel.

"Two years on from the referendum, we now know that the Brexit vote has seriously damaged the economy,” said CER Deputy Director John Springford, who authored the study. “We know that the government’s Brexit dividend is a myth: the vote is costing the Treasury 440 million pounds a week, far more than the U.K. ever contributed to the EU budget."

The key points here is that it is costing (NB - costing, not will cost) the treasury more than it pays out in EU contributions. No speculation involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 07:59 AM

Read on to the end of the article:
"The CER used a statistical model that compared the U.K.’s economic performance against predicted output if the referendum result had gone the other way. It did so by identifying which OECD countries’ gross domestic product, consumption and investment data best replicated the U.K. economy in the two decades leading up to the referendum."
The CER article is based on comparisons with what it believes would have been the situation had we not decided to leave the EU.
Total speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 08:35 AM

I suggest you complain to Bloomberg then Nigel. The quote categorically says that the brexit vote HAS seriously damaged the economy. Not is going to or might but has

Of course you may know better than the CER deputy director but I am not aware of your qualifications.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 08:39 AM

I was writing a long post saying in essence that Nigel would not allow anyone else to get away with that dismissive "Total speculation" when it can be shown mathematically that is extreme hyperbole.

But in the end, I decide to stick to as bald a statement as he did. It is a comparison to a model so there is a degree of uncertainty. That is a long way from total spwculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 08:44 AM

The Leave campaign was based on absolutely nothing but 'speculation'. You were very happy indeed to believe the 'speculation' put forward by Bozo, Haddock-Face, the Little Scottish viper, and the rest of the BrexShit Brigade - so much so that you voted Leave, despite there not being one single jot of hard evidence that leaving the EU would be beneficial to the UK in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 08:46 AM

"Total speculation."
Which is more or less how the economists are now forced to operat - no way to run a smell business, never mind a country
Every step of the way in this ongoing farce is based on speculation and dishonesty
Way back, May and her troup of Mental midgets left the conference room confirming there would be no hard border
Shehadn't put her slippers on and stirred her cocoa before her main man, Gormless Gove, was up on his feet saying it was only an aim, not a promise.
Now we are as far away from a decision that could turn Ireland's clock back forty years, as we ever were
Pity the ealing Studios closed - this really would have provided a plot for one of their best comedies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 08:49 AM

I suggest you complain to Bloomberg then Nigel.
No need, he hasn't managed to take me in with speculation dressed up as fact.
Perhaps you should complain that he is misleading those who do not read things critically, and assume that the headlines convey the whole content.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 09:02 AM

Two years on from the referendum, we now know that the Brexit vote has seriously damaged the economy

No speculation. An unequivocal statement. If you disagree you are welcome to provide facts to the contrary. I suppose we will never agree so I can only leave it at that and bring us back to what we have been asking all along. Where are the statements telling us how much good the brexit vote has done or even will do?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 10:31 AM

Dave, the claim reported by Bloomberg is "according to an economic study by the Centre for European Reform."


Is anyone without a vested interest making any such claim?

I can find no-one else who supports it. Can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 10:36 AM

Two years on from the referendum, we now know that the Brexit vote has seriously damaged the economy

I question "seriously."
Of course there have been costs due to the uncertainty surrounding the final deal. That was always expected.
The predictions by all those experts that a Brexit vote would seriously damage the economy have proved to be false Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 11:23 AM

A shame that remainiacs cannot differentiate between facts and mere speculation. No wonder some label them as leftards. After all if the cap fits...................?
The EU is not without it's problems. A speculative report below

EU challenges and future prospects

and of course the elephant in the room that everyone tippy toes around because of a pc straitjacket:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/28/future-of-eu-hinges-on-solving-migration-issue-says-merkel

Could be that if Merkel is history then so is the EU. That is a little more than pure speculation!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 12:03 PM

"Could be that if Merkel is history then so is the EU. That is a little more than pure speculation!"

The EU isn't a Merkel-construct, it existed for a very long time before Angela Merkel became the German Chancellor. Why should her falling from her position in the German government cause the EU to implode? She is but one person.

The British lunatics leaving is, I would have thought, far more likely to have a deleterious effect on the stability of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 12:23 PM

To take what you say literally then surely removing lunatics from any assembly leads to greater stability. But your reasoning is intriguing, perhaps the EU is run by lunatics so any leaving would be considered a loss.
The heroic brexiteers will sail on unworried by those remaining lunatics running the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 12:23 PM

Merkel herself today,
“Europe faces many challenges, but that of migration could become the make-or-break one for the EU,”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 12:34 PM

BBC today,
"The fragility of the EU is increasing," warns EU Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker. "The cracks are growing in size."
It's been easy to get distracted this last couple of weeks by the new Italian government and its headline-grabbing rejection of NGO migrant rescue boats.
But Mr Juncker is right: EU fissures go deeper and are more widespread."

"Mrs Merkel has clearly been weakened at home by her previous open-door migrant policy.
Formerly viewed as politically untouchable, the German chancellor has now been given an ultimatum by her own interior minister.
"By the end of this Brussels summit, you need to come home with a workable pan-European solution to stop irregular migrants bleeding into Germany," Horst Seehofer has threatened her. "Or I will unilaterally slam Germany's borders shut."
The Austrian government told me this week it would then immediately follow suit, causing a border-closing domino effect across Europe - with a seismic impact on the EU's prize political and economic project: the open-border Schengen agreement.
What a blow for Brussels and nightmare for Europe's export-king Germany that would be. "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44632471

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 12:40 PM


Could be that if Merkel is history then so is the EU. That is a little more than pure speculation!


Not much more, in reality.


There are several aspects to this. First and foremost, the immigration question is a vital one for the EU and should not be under-estimated.

But you should not mix up the future of the EU with the future existence of the EU. What is decided about immigration will, most likely, set the EU on one path rather than another. It will certainly have a major impact on what they do about external borders and, probably, about what happens to immigrants already in the EU. But that does not mean they fail to see the advantages of continued co-operation for example. Indeed, it may emphasise it.

Then there is that fact that Merkel is fighting a personal battle for survival, and it would be silly to assume what she says is unconnected with that.

But what it shows most of all is that the UK is way down the pile of things they are going to be worrying about.


===

Then on the facts versus speculation. I have no way of knowing for certain, but it would be standard practice if the model used by the CER comes with confidence intervals, declarations of known limitations of the model and a history of validation results. So it will be accurate - again, assuming normal methods have been used - to say the results will be 99.5% certain to a certain tolerance. That is not speculation.

That people will be queueing up to do deals with us that are greatly to our benefit *is* speculation: no evidence for not is offered.


Analysis, with recognised limitations on one hand, blind guesses on the other. I know which I would call speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 12:40 PM

"The heroic brexiteers will sail on unworried by those remaining lunatics running the EU."

To quote your fellow BrexShiteer! Nigs, "Total speculation"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 12:58 PM

DMcG,
if the model used by the CER comes with confidence intervals, declarations of known limitations of the model and a history of validation results. So it will be accurate

Bloomberg(!) published it a week ago, and no other media outlet or broadcaster has picked it up.
Everyone has completely dismissed it except for you and Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 01:01 PM

DMcG,
That people will be queueing up to do deals with us that are greatly to our benefit *is* speculation: no evidence for not is offered.

None needed. Free trade benefits both parties. That is a fact so why would anyone not want a trade deal with a major economy finally available for free trade?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 01:23 PM

As Kipling put it:

I reckon there's more things told than are true.
And more things true than are told!


Where something is true or not is connected to who bothers to report it. There has been a lot of things happening over the last week and, as a media story, it is very little different to many things over the last year. But you will see, if you look a little closer, that the argument was more about what is and is not speculation, rather than whether this is a particularly good analysis. I have already admitted I do not have the data to determine that. What I am fairly confident of, though, is that simply calling it speculation is mistaken.

And the answer to your question "so why would anyone not want a trade deal with a major economy finally available for free trade" is there are many possible reasons. Just use your imagination and I am sure you can think of some. But to give you just one: there are other costs, like transportation. It might be still cheaper to sell your goods elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 01:34 PM

NO EU or UK media bothered with it.
There is no FT, Guardian, Indie or BBC report on it.
They all know it was tosh.
Only some private media firm in Manhattan was taken in by it, apart from you and Dave.

Your suggested reasons for not wanting free trade with Britain do not stand up either.
We already trade profitably outside the EU more than with it, and when we can ditch the EU tariffs it will be better and cheaper still.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 01:35 PM

By the way, that misquote you made by taking half my sentence so that I appeared to claim a report was accurate but omitted what amounts to 'to this extent' is extreme.

Any apology coming my way?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 02:37 PM

I am becoming more and more of the opinion that Iains should be ignored as completely as Keith. He does have his lucid moments but the ridiculous amount of invective used makes him just as difficult to communicate with. Shame really but we now know it is the only way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:15 PM

Sorry again!
DMcG,
I am sorry if my abbreviation misrepresented your statement.

Please ignore that post and insert this one.

if the model used by the CER comes with confidence intervals, declarations of known limitations of the model and a history of validation results. So it will be accurate - again, assuming normal methods have been used - to say the results will be 99.5% certain to a certain tolerance. That is not speculation.

It is not even speculation!
Bloomberg (in Manhatan!) published it a week ago, and no other media outlet or broadcaster anywhere has picked it up!
Everyone has completely dismissed it except for you and Dave.
It is just tosh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:17 PM

Dave, you just can't hack it.
If you had an argument you would post it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:31 PM

Thanks for the correction. There are other distortions I have let pass because I do think it better to have both main viewpoints represented. But be clear: another big distortion like that and I will once again join the 'ignorers', for longer this time. As before, it is entirely up to you decising to take the trouble to read the whole post and think about them, rather than just pulling a phrase out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:31 PM

Hoops gentlemen, hoops.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:52 PM

I don't think anyone jumps any more, Raggy. We can't stop him twisting and turning though.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 05:12 PM

I think sterling will slump, an currency speculators will make money

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 05:29 PM

Sterling slumped the day after Brexit, from 1.31 Euro to the pound to 1.13 Euro to the pound, it has rarely risen above 1.14 Euro to the pound ever since. Thus everything we have imported since then has cost us approximately 10% more.

Yet another example of the "good" news about Brexit.

Still, as some would argue "wiv got our cuntry back"

The mere fact that my food bill alone has increased by 12 to 15 quid a week, and my income hasn't, is a small price to pay ..... isn' it?????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 02:28 AM

I watched Question Time with growing incredulity last night as the Tory speaker said that her party was united around Brexit (I didn't notice which asylum it came from)
There seems no conception whatever of the damage this farce has done, not just to the future of Britain, but to society and democracy

Brexit was soled on the populist view that immigration was bad and refugees were a menace - the claims that got Enoch Powell kicked out of his party and placed him in a position where he could only get work from a sectarian extremist part.
The immediate result of the decision was spike in racist incidents in Britain - non Brits were being approached within days and asked "when are you going home"

Fanny-grabbing Trump, with his children's cages, his wall and his "bigger button" took advantage of the same populism and dragged the white robed hoodies from their swamps

Now we have boatloads of people fleeing wars we have helped facilitate, floating on the ocean, having been refused landing permission - thanks to the same populist view that immigration is evil

What a world to pass on to our kids, eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 02:44 AM

But, but, but, "Weer taking are cuntry back", Jim! And the Leave voters have 'hopes' it'll all turn out fine, whilst any suggestions from Remoaners that it won't all turn out fine are just 'speculation'.

It's not just their heads that are in the sand, there's only the soles of their feet above ground. Never mind though, the unicorns will arrive on 29/3/19 and everything will be luvverly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 03:00 AM

Yes, Question Time is often an impressive show of determined unwillingness to face facts, but Suella Braverman took her understandable desire to show the Tories have a united purpose and merely differ on detail into a realm beyond fantasy.

I thought the audience was, in the main, more rational than normal.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 03:21 AM

RAGGY, true but the weakness in your argument is that at the same time that makes exports cheaper, none of which makes brexit a good thing but possibly the cheaper exports and deeeer imports balance each other out from the point of view of the economy, you are right however, cheaper exports are of no use to the unemployed, whereas dearer imports, means more expensive food

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 03:42 AM

But once Brexit is complete we will no longer have to impose the EU's protectionist tariffs on food from the rest of the world. The cost of the weekly shop should then go down.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 04:03 AM

Mere speculation Nigel ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 04:15 AM

Dave the Gnome wrote: Mere speculation Nigel ;-)

The EU puts tarifs on foreign food. Fact not speculation. When we leave the EU we will be able to remove tariffs on foreign food. Fact, not speculation. After leaving the EU, will we remove tariffs on foreign food? That, for now. is speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 04:16 AM

It is not speculation that we currently have to charge tariffs on food from outside EU to protect expensive EU produce.
Likewise clothing.
Both will be tariff free when we leave.
Not speculation. Fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 04:19 AM

It is worth paying close attention to the use of 'will' and 'should' in Nigel's last post. He is definitely not saying any savings from tariff changes 'will' be passed to consumers. I am not sure if he is merely expressing possibility in that 'should' or if he also means to include a moral obligation but either way, don't count on your shopping cost coming down.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 04:28 AM

Exactly Dave.

Hence why, when asked for the 'good news' on Brexit my usual response is that it will come once we have achieved Brexit. Anything given now is likely to be speculation, just as many of the stories of bad news are also speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 04:35 AM

A1 i

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 04:36 AM

Sorry about that last one. Pocket post!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 04:47 AM

So what sort of EU are we leaving after Merkel's trouncing yesterday?
Internment camps in Africa for processing wannabe migrants?


https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-angela-merkels-neck-not-of-the-noose-yet-despite-eu-migration-deal/a-44452847

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 05:19 AM

Stanron, you have not been party to the ongoing discussion between me and Nigel. Either that or you are unaware what ;-) signifies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 06:35 AM

Conculsions of 29 June EU meeting in regard to Brexit


As before, your reading may differ but to me the request that the UK offers 'workable and realistic' proposals, the reiteration of the need to sort of Northern Ireland and the call for all institutions to step up preparedness for all outcomes (including obviously a cliff edge next year) looks very like my earlier reading that the EU is moving to "it is no deal unless you come back with something workable and realistic".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 06:55 AM

Sorry, that is the one on migration. I should have linked to this

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 06:59 AM

my earlier reading that the EU is moving to "it is no deal unless you come back with something workable and realistic".

We have offered them workable and realistic, but hit a brick wall.
There are two sides to what is supposed to be a "negotiation."
No deal would harm both sides, but them more than us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 07:08 AM

That is, of course, proposals the EU recognise to be workable and realistic. That is their condition for negotiation. How often we claim something to be workable and realistic is irrelevant.

This is basic sales and negotiation, folks. 'You' need a product 'they' will buy. Insisting it is wonderful when you know they don't want it is futile. You need to convincing them the offer is a good one for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 08:11 AM

The negotiations have achieved little so far, but why do you only blame one side?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 09:20 AM

Who is blaming anyone? Both sides are trying to do what they see as their best interests. That is as it should be: no blame is attached.

That we are less successful is partly because we are unable comprehend that trade is not the sole interest of the EU, which is why we get this nonsense about the EU going against a deal that is in their own interests. They are not, they just have a wider view of what is in their interest than just trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 10:43 AM

I just came across this again. I have posted it before but it is well worth doing it again.

Neither long ago nor in a galaxy far away the animal world was in harmony. The farm had grown large and unwieldy but still safe and strong. The sheep lived with the cattle and horses and worried not about the world. They were still hunted but the mighty animals, the lion and the wolf, were kept in check by the powerful elephant and strong wildebeest who had united with the sheep to ensure fairness to all.

However not all was well for the baboon wanted to lead the animals and the frog saw, with its bulging eyes, that the animals that no-one trusted could become powerful if they united against the farm. So the baboon, waving his arms and behaving like a fool, began to gather allies to their cause. The viper that had poisoned everything that it had touched became their friend and the drunken hyena, who used to feed on the weak, turned against the lion for he also wanted more power. They saw that the sheep loved to hear the donkeys bray and whatever the donkeys brayed became the mantra for the sheep. So they befriended the donkeys and told them to bray a song that half the sheep loved and half the sheep hated. This way the sheep became disunited and fought amongst themselves, ignoring the insidious manoeuvring of the unholy alliance.

“See how the farm steals your hard earned fodder,” brayed the donkeys.

“Remember how much better things were when the lion ruled you.” They sang across the land.

But the song that did the most harm was “Look at the rabbits. The farm let them in. They are eating all your grass and it is their fault that the lion eats your kin.” For this not only divided the sheep but also caused much resentment against the innocent rabbit.

So, the lion, the wolf, the elephant and the wildebeest sat together to determine what was to be done. None would lead, as they knew that whatever they did the baboon, the frog, the viper and the hyena would tell the donkeys to bray against them and the sheep would become more discontent. The mighty animals saw that the only way to silence to unholy ones was to ask the sheep who they wished to rule them. But they had not seen how divided the sheep had become and they did not understand that many would believe the donkeys over them. Half the sheep wanted to stay safe in the farm and the other half wanted the new life promised by the others. So they began to fight amongst themselves until, at last, none of them knew what was the truth and what was not.

The bald eagle and the bear, who had been bitter enemies in the past, joined with the voice of the donkeys as they wanted to rule the entire animal kingdom and saw that while the farm survived it would be in their way. The baboon and the frog knew that this was the perfect time for them to begin their reign so the sheep were forced to decide between living in thrall on the farm or trying to survive on their own in the jungle. They were evenly divided but one more sheep wanted to try the jungle than wanted to stay on the farm. So they were all forced out. The lion shook his head in disbelief and left. The frog grinned with his wide mouth. The baboon frolicked and the donkeys sang his praises while the sheep who wanted to stay in the farm wept.

Many ages later a new alliance formed. It is outside our fable to say what it will be. But the sheep survived. The lion still ate some. The old ones still went for mutton. The donkeys still brayed.

And the children were still sent to market…

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 10:45 AM

It was 2 years ago today that I posted it on Facebook BTW. Can't think what may have prompted it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 11:01 AM

And your point is?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 11:03 AM

"negotiation."
Negotiation my arse - not when the Westminster cloewns keep moving the goalposts
They promise a soft border, then in the next breath say it wasn't a promise but an 'aim'
Who is going to trust any politician who behaves like that ?
One of the places certain to suffer is the six Northern Counties - that little piece of Ireland that calls itself British
THey don't want asea border so they insist on an internal one, butting the well-being of both sides at risk as well as the Good Friday Agreement
Even if Brexit hadn't been won on a racist ticket which is now being shown as detrimental to even the British economy, no political group should be allowed to get away with that
At least Maggie May is keeping the

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 11:09 AM

Damn that prem jac

CARTOONISTS happy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 11:21 AM

They promise a soft border, then in the next breath say it wasn't a promise but an 'aim'

Not true.
They still promise it and always did.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 11:26 AM

DMcG,
That we are less successful is partly because we are unable comprehend that trade is not the sole interest of the EU, which is why we get this nonsense about the EU going against a deal that is in their own interests. They are not, they just have a wider view of what is in their interest than just trade.

Not true. They have refused to even discuss trade yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 11:45 AM

It is not a term I normally use, but your last two posts are prime examples of Keithian hoops. I am not jumping.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 12:27 PM

Keith freely admits he comes on here to argue, DMcG. Some of his tactics are to set traps and twist meanings. For this reason many people will no longer interact with him. You are to be commended for your patience but I and many others have tried before. I can assure you it is pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 12:31 PM

You are to be commended for your patience
Thank you, but I have to say it is wearing very thin indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:20 PM

DMcG and Dave,
but your last two posts are prime examples of Keithian hoops.

Everything I said in those two posts,

"Not true. They have refused to even discuss trade yet. "
AND
"Not true. They still promise it and always did. "

Just two facts.
No hoops. No traps No tactics. No twists. No arguments.
Just two facts.
What is your problem?
What are you both afraid of?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:42 PM

I think your problem is that I dared challenge you with facts.


Much easier to ignore me than to reply I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:44 PM

Flaming hoops now, chaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:45 PM

Easier to ignore facts than address them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:47 PM

So goodbye Keith. I had taken a decision that if you carried on like this I would not respond until after I get back from my next holiday, which will be September.

You say there are no tricks or traps in what you said: I agree, that would give them too much credit. They are simply things you know are misrepresentations, such as equating Jim's accurate remark that David Davis insisted [the December document] was much more a statement of intent than "legally enforceable" almost immediately after the agreement was issued. That is what he said. Jim knows he did, I know he did and you know he did (because you commented on it earlier in the thread.)   That the official policy has always been to seen 'no hard border' matters not one whit, since what Jim was clearly talking about was the David Davis response. Which you know all about but choose to ignore by pretending the topic was the overall government policy, when you know full well it was not.

And you do this in order to persuade people to type out long explanations like this. That's what has been graced with the name of a 'hoop'. Well, sorry, that's enough. Maybe after September...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:59 PM

A very pertinent cartoon by Rowson in todays Guardian, if someone could kindly provide a link.

It is said that a picture paints a thousand words, this cartoon certainly does.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 02:03 PM

Cartoon

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 02:10 PM

Thanks DMcG, as I said very pertinent!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 03:07 AM

Brexit: EU leaders say single-market access for goods a nonstarter

Following up their statement that any proposal from the UK must be workable and realistic, the EU are making clear than one of the options rumoured to be under consideration is not, so the UK need not bother proposing it. As the time for negotiation runs out, the EU is getting less willing to go through the ritual of waiting for the UK to make a self-evidently unacceptable proposal, then reject it and wait for another. Instead, it is emphasising again that the UK agreed some things back in Decemeber and only proposals that are in accord with that are worth bringing to the table.

I thought this account of the Chequers meeting due on Friday is a lovely bit of writing:

An English country house, a polite but inscrutable host and an ill-assorted band of guests, each with a motive to stab each other in the back. Theresa May’s Brexit house party at Chequers next Friday sounds more like the set-up for an Agatha Christie mystery than a cabinet meeting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 03:15 AM

Not so much a hoop now - more like ONE OF THESE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 05:10 AM

DMcG, you are more guilty of misrepresentation than me.
Jim's accurate remark that David Davis insisted [the December document] was much more a statement of intent than "legally enforceable" almost immediately after the agreement was issued. That is what he said. Jim knows he did,

Jim actually said this, "They promise a soft border, then in the next breath say it wasn't a promise but an 'aim.'"


He was wrong and I was right to correct him.
The UK position has always and unequivocally been no hard border.

Your attempts to justify ignoring facts put to you are pathetic.

the EU are making clear than one of the options rumoured to be under consideration is not, (workable and realistic)

They always claim that because they do not want a successful negotiation because they do not want us to leave.
We say it is workable and realistic, they say it is not.
Why do you only believe them and only criticise our side?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 07:02 AM

Rag, I find that cartoon in incredibly bad taste.
It portrays EU leaders grinning and waving at drowning migrants, with May standing in one of the migrant boats.

What is the joke? That the migrants are being obstructed from entering EU while UK is being obstructed from leaving? Not funny!

Perhaps that we are being rejected and left to drown along with the migrants? Not funny!

What do you find so appealing about it Rag?
I think it is sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 08:20 AM

From the Guardian in response to the recent cartoon kinked above:

"

Amazing how Remainers have lost any criticism of the EU. To them it is all dancing unicorns in a verdant forest the UK was made to leave.

Meanwhile back on planet earth the summit from a couple of days ago proves yet again what a dysfunctional, useless organisation it is. 10 hours of negotiating to come up with no agreement, but a communique because they had to have one which lasted about all of a day before that got undermined.

Next to no coverage of Macron and his grand plan which was next to ignored where reform of the euro got binned. All of this only a couple of months before Italy will have a budget breaking near enough every rule in the book. No amount of EU fudge will paper over the cracks of what Italy will do, and the EU [read Germany] refuse them to do so. Should be fun as if they try that Italy will defy them with a parallel currency and that puts the euro on death watch.

So the question remains as to what will hole the EU under the waterline. Their inability to solve the migrant crisis, or the eurocrisis? Probably a combination of both. Thank god the British electorate saw sense to vote out of the clutches of those loonies.

Look forward to the Guardian coverage when they start fighting like ferrets in a sack again, with the Remoaners coming up with pathetic excuses of why we should stay attached to those loonies."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 08:21 AM

Surge in people obtaining EU citizenship

Note this excludes those people who are entitled to Irish citizenship by ancestry - like me. My Irish application is in process, but they have said it make six months.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 08:49 AM

When you say that is from the Guardian am I right in thinking it is not from anyone employed by Guardian, but by an ordinary member of the public in their comments section? If so, it is as reasonable or unreasonable to say it is from the Guardian as to claim anything in the Have Your Say section of the BBC website is a statement 'from the BBC'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 09:21 AM

Pretty obvious it was a comment I would have thought. Such controversial ideas would never pass the editorial censors of the gruniard.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 10:52 AM

"Meanwhile back on planet earth "
Your hardly merited arrogance gets a little tiresome Iains - it's long since it was entertaining
You sneer at information you are given, you ignore what others say, your appear to have placed yourself on an imaginary pedestal from which you look down and sneer at everything around you
You never attempt to debate with anybody
Your own "information" is drawn from the worst examples that narrow minded and bigoted Little Britain has to offer
Why are you here unless it is not a peacock display drawn from your own imagination?
Do you really think as highly of yourself as you appear to?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 11:03 AM

Dave,
I am becoming more and more of the opinion that Iains should be ignored as completely as Keith. He does have his lucid moments but the ridiculous amount of invective used makes him just as difficult to communicate with. Shame really but we now know it is the only way.

Looks like DMcG is ignoring you on that as he should have done on your ludicrous Bloomberg thing. (Remember their report that would have been Brexit story of the week if it had any substance to it?)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 11:34 AM

DMcG,
Surge in people obtaining EU citizenship

That is a completely understandable reaction by UK citizens.
UK has absolutely guaranteed the rights of EU citizens resident in UK, but EU has refused to reciprocate with any such reassurance to UK citizens in EU states.

I think we have the moral high ground on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 11:42 AM

Hoops!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 11:45 AM

"Meanwhile back on planet earth "
A tipple too many jimmy?

Further to the cartoon in the Guardian of a lifeboat adrift on a stormy sea. By June 2017 more than 2000 migrants had drowned in the Mediterranean Sea.
Had the Daily Mail printed such a cartoon, the squeals from the left would have been overwhelming. The Guardian should issue an apology forthwith. The cartoon is a disgrace and the person/s responsible for it's printing should be fired.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 12:07 PM

"A tipple too many jimmy?"
I just thought you should know that everybody has noticied your little weakness
Never mind - you've still got Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 12:22 PM

A match made in heaven. Or hell?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 12:29 PM

Do I detect some misplaced righteous indignation.

I saw Teresa May, the leader, taking her shipmates on a voyage that was ineveitably bound to end in disaster.

I wonder if any of the objectors noticed the fascist salutes that were being given by some of the shore party.

I doubt it for some reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 01:31 PM

Temper!

Apparently "The Sun" reported this first.
I wonder if he might be among those rumoured to be thinking of leaving after the Chequers meeting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 01:43 PM

Isn't it so reassuring to know that our Government who are charged with the responsibility of negotiating our departure from the EU are of one accord.

Anyone got any good news about Brexit yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 01:57 PM

You play with words here. The cartoonist makes a mockery of death. Yet the leftards say nowt. Quelle surprise!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 02:30 PM

Like I said earlier Iains, "righteous indignation" I believe on your part.

The cartoon was an indication of the stupid voyage that the UK has embarked upon, I and I would suggest a vast majority of people saw it a such.

Apart from that do you have any good news to relate to us about Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 02:37 PM

It is quite amazing that anyone prepared to use terms mocking those with learning difficulties feign indignation at anything at all but I suppose it should be no surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 04:45 PM

"Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 02:37 PM

I am becoming more and more of the opinion that Iains should be ignored as completely as Keith"
In the light of your response above, Shall I send you a dictionary gnomie, or is it merely a senior moment?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 05:59 PM

"Like I said earlier Iains, "righteous indignation" I believe on your part."

For once we agree!

Definition of righteous - morally right or justifiable, OED

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 07:12 PM

"Shall I send you a dictionary gnomie, or is it merely a senior moment?"
You can't restrain your cowardly anonymous personal abuse, can you ?
I bet your family would really be proud of you if they learned you were a cyber-stalker operating from the shadows

Personally, I think people are daft even to respond to you - you offer nothing intelligent, you are permanently defensively nasty... - why bother feeding a troll lads?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 04:12 AM

That is just the type of thing I was referring to, Jim. I suspect some kind of disorder so he should probably be pitied rather than scorned but I think most people have had enough. Trouble is he doesn't even seem to understand the difference between being talked about and talked to. Sad really.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 04:37 AM

Surge in number of British obtaining EU citizenship

Just in case anyone had trouble finding it. The previous link led to the front page, rather than the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 04:42 AM

Thanks, Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 05:15 AM

Have the mudrats run out of sensible contributions? How many more need to gather before the collective term plague can be applied?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 06:06 AM

New cloud on the horizon for Brexit
Having already fired the opening shots in a Trade War with aluminium tariffs, Trump is now honing in on Nato and the E.U. with a probable extension of that conflict
In order to do so, he is apparently attempt to form an alliance with Hungary's fascist Orbán, North Korea's Kim Jong-un, Israel's Benny the Bolt Netanyahu... and any rag-bag neo-fascist he can win over.
According to The Times, he has formed an obsession for domineering extreme leaders.
Britain, with its growing unstable political position and its lack of a major industry whose products anybody wants, its quite likely to be a victim of this trade war rather than a beneficiary.

An interesting spin-off of Trump's Twattism is the likelihood of a left-wing leadership led by what is described as 'a Mexican Corbyn' and a Socialist woman challenger for the Governorship of California
Interesting times
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 11:56 AM

Iains, could I suggest that instead of attacking individual posters your response should be to inform us of how Brexit will better the UK.

I, and I would suggest many others, are at a loss to see how the UK as a nation will benefit from the move.

We have had countless reports in the media that are negative, we have had scores of Government reports suppressed, even the small amount of those that have been disclosed have been negative.

So just where is the source of your optimism?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 12:33 PM

I, and I would suggest many others, are at a loss to see how the UK as a nation will benefit from the move.

It was all laid out in the Leave campaign two years ago, just as all the reasons for staying were by Remain.
Remain lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 12:49 PM

The EU is corrupt. It has failed to present accounts for goodness knows how long.
The EU is incompetent. Had the EU offered any kind of effective reform before the referendum we may not have voted to leave.
The EU is dishonest. When we last voted in the 70s it was about remaining in or leaving an economic community. The plan for political union existed then but was hidden. This was dishonest.
The EU is undemocratic. We were never allowed to vote on stuff they reckoned we would reject. We cannot elect any of the people who originate policy.
The EU is a train wreck in the process of happening.

We are seriously well off outside of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 01:16 PM

Oh yes, one other point, The EU is a gravy train.

Why do you think Tony Blair is so keen to keep us in the EU?

Tony was almost certain to be a President or something equally well funded if the UK had stayed in the EU. Now we are out he has no chance of picking up the benefits and perks. Of course he wants to change the referendum outcome. He's not got enough millions yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 01:36 PM

Reality Check: Has the EU had its accounts signed off?


The EU has plenty of flaws, and I agree if they had been more willing to adapt it is possible Brexit would never have happened. Possible, not not, I think, likely.


But let us agree that the EU has lots of problems. That does not mean in itself leaving it will be better for us.

By the weekend, the cabinet will either fail to agree, produce fudge which the EU will probably not accept, or finally decide whether it is going for a soft or hard Brexit. Quite possibly, but not certainly, there will be some resignations. I would guess the "big beasts" will not resign, but the more ambitious lower ranks might.

I imagine not all of these will overcome what you see as the problems of the EU membership. What outcomes are acceptable to you? And more importantly, perhaps, what is your stance if the decision is one of the options you did not want?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 01:50 PM

I'd be perfectly happy with a hard exit. We stop p[aying them millions or billions of our hard taxed money and they stop telling us what to do. What's to loose. Don't forget business works both ways. We both buy, we both sell. Don't forget, the EU wants, and needs, our money. So far they are not offering us anything for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 01:55 PM

Fair enough, Stanron. Now the other question I asked: what is your stance if the agreed position is not that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 01:58 PM

This is the problem, Stanron. We all know we pay the EU. Some, however, believe we get good value for money. All the economic analyses confirm that. Once out of the club we have not been shown what will be better. You are optimistic that it will be. Share with us what creates that optimism. Give us a decent study that shows us how much better off we will be.

Pound to a penny you can't find one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:07 PM

Do I detect hoops?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:13 PM

Not on my part, Stanron. It was a serious enquiry but if you think it hoopish, please do not answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:20 PM

What a load of bollocks. The EU has been the source of our prosperity, and of many, many opportunities for our young people. It has enriched our lives and our culture. Outside it, Britain will be a poorer place in any sense.

The EU will power on. Britain will fall by the wayside. Our young, educated people will vote with their feet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:21 PM

Not on my part either. I am genuinely looking for something to look forward to. To date no one has provided anything!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:28 PM

Silly me. I thought it was simple.

We give money to the EU because we are rich and they, or part of they, are poor. But there is a significant part of the UK that is also poor. When we give our money to the EU we deprive the poorer parts of our society of that money. Of course at the same time there are parts of the EU that are very rich.

No surprise that the rich parts of the EU do not contribute to the poor parts of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:30 PM

Yes, the EU's accounts have been 'signed off', but not as being accurate.
For a view other than that of the BBC see FullFact.org

Auditors say the accounts have been accurate since 2007. But they have historically recorded significant errors in how money is paid since their first audit in 1995. In the most recent year, they found a significant part of the EU’s spending was largely error-free for the first time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:32 PM

So, you believe we give money to the EU and get nothing back in return?

Why would anyone do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:38 PM

So, you believe we give money to the EU and get nothing back in return?
Why would anyone do that?

Good question, so if we pay in more than we get out we should choose to leave, yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:40 PM

Oh boy. I do enjoy a good laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:52 PM

The rich parts of the EU contribute to the poorer parts of the EU. Many of the poorer parts of the UK have benefited greatly from EU structural funds, including the European Regional Development Fund and the European Social Fund. Merseyside is one, and it has been transformed since the days of the Boys from the Blackstuff. And if you think that any UK government would have put the resources into Merseyside that the EU did, you are having a laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:58 PM

Can someone please tell me I, as a 'common working man' will benefit from our leaving the EU.

If someone could do that I may sign up to it.

So far every report I have seen has indicated that I 'as a common working man' will be worse off.

My own personal experience has clearly indicated that I an worse off. I know what I used to spend and I know what those same things cost me today.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 03:08 PM

David, all the money that came from the EU was a smaller amount than that which the UK sent to the EU. None of the richer parts of the EU contributed money to the UK. There are some very rich parts of Germany, Italy, France and Spain. None of their money has come to the UK. None. All the money that came to the UK originated in the UK. Your political beliefs are your affair but the only money that came to the UK came from the UK in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 03:24 PM

I suspect the remainiacs are taking maths lessons from Diane Abbot.
What else accounts for their confusion. In 2017 the UK net contribution to the EU is estimated to be £8.6 billion

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 03:24 PM

all the money that came from the EU was a smaller amount than that which the UK sent to the EU.

Would you care to substantiate that Stanron? My understanding is that we benefited financially as well as culturally. I am happy to be proved wrong but only with facts. Not opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 03:35 PM

"So, you believe we give money to the EU and get nothing back in return?

Why would anyone do that? "

You could not make it up, could you?


https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-1

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 03:37 PM

All the money that my village receives from the UK government is a smaller amount than my village sends to the UK government. Quite reasonably so as my village is more prosperous than the average UK region. Likewise a more region such as Britain might expect to send more to the EU than it receives if it is on average more prosperous than the average EU region. But I would rather that my tax money went to poor people in Poland than to subsidising the UK military.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 03:47 PM

It is interesting to note that:

So, you believe we give money to the EU and get nothing back in return?


Is being interpreted as 'and get no direct money in return'.   Indirect monitory benefits - like contracts won as a result of membership - are ignored. Non-monetary benefits, like reduced unfair competition - which is what many ECJ cases are about - are ignored.

A point of view, of course, and you are entitled to it. It is not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 03:56 PM

Dave the Gnome wrote: Would you care to substantiate that Stanron? My understanding is that we benefited financially as well as culturally. I am happy to be proved wrong but only with facts. Not opinions.

This has to be hoops.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 04:04 PM

Of course we benefited financially. ERDF, ESF, Framework I - VII, Horizon2020, an endless list. All of great benefit to the UK, and things that no UK government would ever replicate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 04:07 PM

" But I would rather that my tax money went to poor people in Poland than to subsidising the UK military."

Good job we were not thinking along those lines in the late thirties, where incidentally our money did go to support Poland. We went to war on their behalf. And a jolly good job it went to the military before that. If Pacifism ruled OK we would all be goose stepping.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 06:48 PM

plenty of other countries choose to spend their money differently rather than attack other nations and spend billions hoping to impress the americans. when it comes to 'defence' we are a ludicrously pompous little country completely without morals when it comes to arms sales and how best to conduct international diplomacy

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 02:55 AM

Why should UK get more back in terms of £££ than we put in? A fundamental pillar of the Treaty of Rome was the concept of leveling the playing field. We should be paying more because we can afford to, if our economy was weaker it would be the other way round.

It is not the fault of the EU that we have an almost obscene income and wealth inequality - something that ERDF and ESF and other cohesion funding went some measure to address.

As a result of EU interventions, in particular RECHAR, regions impacted by the decline of mining were able to economically restructure. As a result of ADAPT, there was investment to allow people working in SME's to have the skills to work in changing industrial environments. There are many other programmes the UK has benefited from INTEGRA, LEONARDO and others that escape my memory.

And levelling the playing field isn't just about 'giving our money to someone else'. it is about raising the whole of Europe to the level of a world-class economy - clearly not an overnight job as individual member states' economies are at different levels due to their own historic domestic policies.

The upshot is that as economies develop, all of the EU, including UK benefit from innovative, high quality and competitive production sectors, through expansion of world wide trade, internal supply chains, and social policies help ensure that those who are individually disadvantaged are not left behind.

What makes me angry is those in the UK who believe that those who (currently) have the wealth in income should be able to just pocket it without any responsibility to our neighbors. It makes me more angry that the likes of May, Johnson, Gove and many people on this thread are so arrogant that they think the UK (and UK trade and industry) deserves a single iota of benefit from EU markets in preference to the rest of the world. If/when UK leaves, the EU has amoral DUTY to do absolutely nothing in UK's favour to its own detriment.

The exit bill is too low - UK should be forced to continue paying into the EU budget until such time that EU 27 are collectively able to fill the contribution gap. This can be done by setting tariffs at a high enough level to meet this, pull investment out of UK supply chain component producers, place economic pressure on the rest of the world to not put access to the EU27 market in jeopardy for the sake of dealing with 5% of the European population.

Finally, as this has been a major issue in the news. EU members must have a collective responsibility to deal with refugee and asylum seeker settlement. Internally, it is the responsibility of the first border point of arrival. However, it is unfair to place the economic burden on those states that have a border, or are closest to where people are seeking asylum from. There are two ways of dealing with this - co-location across all EU states - and area in which UK is among the states that have a disgraceful track record in meeting its responsibilities, or distribution of cohesion funding per capita based upon the number of people seeking settlement. In either case UK must be forced ad infinitum to meet its share of the costs and/or obligation before any benefit from trade with EU is allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:11 AM

Good summary Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:03 AM

while i agree with pete aberdeen, there is a certain irony here,europe has been taken over and run by germany partly due to the disgusting friend of jimmy saville, ted heath.however for any prime minister[cameron] to offer a referendum to the people without a back up plan, is irresponsible and idiotic

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:06 AM

Nice to see that many people understand that benefits are not purely financial. Thanks for the support and for restoring my faith in human nature. Good to know that most people are not short sighted, money grabbing xenophobes!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:21 AM

Of course there are benefits to membership or there would be no EU, but a majority of UK voters decided that for us they were insufficient.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:25 AM

Nice to see that many people understand that benefits are not purely financial. Thanks for the support and for restoring my faith in human nature. Good to know that most people are not short sighted, money grabbing xenophobes!

Now if only we could get an acceptance that, similarly, the benefits of leaving do not have to be purely financial we might be getting somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM

SPB-cooperator - that is an eloquent, well reasoned statement of the reasons why Brexit is the pile of excrement it truly is.

Sadly, it's probably beyond the comprehension of the Daily Mail readers, brainwashed ex-squaddies, and other sundry feeble-minded and propagandised sheeple around here but, as DtG says, it restores faith that there are still decent, fair minded people around.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:35 AM

Now if only we could get an acceptance that, similarly, the benefits of leaving do not have to be purely financial we might be getting somewhere

I have always fully accepted that but, to date, no one has given us a decent, valid study on what those benefits may be. Are you going to surprise us all and provide one now, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:48 AM

Dave, we had a national debate about all the pros and cons, remember?
Backwoodsman, why would you even want to talk to such people? That is beyond comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:49 AM


I have always fully accepted that but, to date, no one has given us a decent, valid study on what those benefits may be. Are you going to surprise us all and provide one now, Nigel?

Hoops!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:05 AM

"The benefits of leaving do not have to be purely financial we might be getting somewhere."
As the main selling point of Brexit was aimed at getting rid of immigrants, most decent people don't regard that as a "benefit"
The sharp rise in racist incidents immediately following the decision was evidence that this was an effective argument.
Should Britain have to crash out of Europe, as seems possible, one of the first 'benefits' will be having to come with the possible enforced return of the million plus Brits now living in Europe, thirty two thousand of them now drawing hardship and unemployment benefit on the continent
Only one of Farage's Feeble Minded could regard that as a satisfactory exchange for the immigrants prevented from settling in Britain.
Trump's trade war is hardly likely to benefit Britain
Isn't it about time you started to explain what these 'other' benefits will ever be should this particular 'Pie-in-the Sky' ever get baked?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:16 AM

Now if only we could get an acceptance that, similarly, the benefits of leaving do not have to be purely financial we might be getting somewhere

I have always fully accepted that but, to date, no one has given us a decent, valid study on what those benefits may be. Are you going to surprise us all and provide one now, Nigel?

As Keith points out, these were discussed at the time of the referendum (together with lies and exaggerations from both sides of the discussion)these are not complete, but they include:
Regaining control of our own borders. This allows us to control immigration. It is not xenophobic as it is not an attempt to stop all immigration.
Regaining control of our laws.
Regain control of our trading arrangements, allowing us to make trade deals with other countries without needing to add tariffs intended to protect the interests of French farmers (among others).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:29 AM

Thank you, Nigel. I may believe that those benefits are outweighed by what we lose but at least you have made the effort and I appreciate that. Sadly, while the losses are quantified by the various studies linked in this thread the benefits do not seem to have been subjected to the same scrutiny. I find that rather disturbing and would be happier if they could be quantified by more than sticking a set finger in the air. Hence the ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:33 AM

The losses may have been 'quantified' by studies, but they are still not based on a knowledge of what conditions will prevail when we leave, so are effectively guesswork. I have consistently avoided taking that same approach.
We know there were studies before the referendum took place as well, and look at those when compared to the actual happenings since.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:36 AM

Stanron. Hoops are those things that are held higher and higher every time one is jumped through. If you think a single request for substantiation is a hoop, you have got the wrong end of the stick. Had you have provided any information I would have been quite happy and left it at that. Not so much a hoop as a doorstep but you seem to have tripped over that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:46 AM

Guesswork it may well be Nigel but, judging by the consistency of the findings, it seems to be very accurate. I would trust it over blind optimism but you already know that. What has been happening here is that every time a new study predicts an output it has been negative. There has not been a single study that predicts a positive outcome. Not a one. I find that disturbing and no amount of saying it'll be alright on the night will help to allay those fears. Surely you can understand that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:50 AM

Strange how some here insist on future events being quantified. I wonder what method of divination they prefer. Studying entrails is a bit iffy in the present temperatures. Probably equally as iffy as all these reports they keep quoting. I would have thought the gross errors of recent polls would have made a moderately well educated person very wary of such beasts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:56 AM

"Regaining control of our own borders." which we have always had unless all those staff, passport checks and security machines than my new hips always set off are really cardboard cut-outs!!
This and never has been "uncontrolled immigration - a xenophobic myth - freedom to move is a two-way street - close it down and you close the whole street
Likewise our laws - human rights is a different matter and needs to be international
We have continued to trade with countries outside the Union - we fill our shops with goods from Third World Countries whose slave-labour conditions benefit us
You choose to ignore the fact that Trump's tariffs are likely to effect Britain as adversely as they are anybody else
In Europe, we can negotiate on tariffs - try negotiating with Don the demic dope-head
These are mythical makie-ups to disguise the real reason for leaving
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 06:02 AM

By the way
Good political and economic governance is based on planning for the future - not "reading the entrails" - it is why the business community via its journals are panicking because they are no longer able to do this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 06:29 AM

Anyone with half a brain plans for the upside and downside. Your argument is flawed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 06:31 AM

"Regaining control of our own borders." which we have always had unless all those staff, passport checks and security machines than my new hips always set off are really cardboard cut-outs!!
This and never has been "uncontrolled immigration - a xenophobic myth - freedom to move is a two-way street - close it down and you close the whole street
Those border checks allow us to identify those who do not have the right of entry to UK.
At present, all EU passport holders have the right of entry, we have no control over how many we are prepared to let in.

Immigration control was not the sole reason for Brexit, although you continually claim that it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 06:40 AM

We have continued to trade with countries outside the Union - we fill our shops with goods from Third World Countries whose slave-labour conditions benefit us
You choose to ignore the fact that Trump's tariffs are likely to effect Britain as adversely as they are anybody else
In Europe, we can negotiate on tariffs - try negotiating with Don the demic dope-head

We buy food from third world countries at prices which are artificially inflated by the tariffs imposed by the EU.
"Trump's tariffs" will affect Britain. Yes, they already do, and will do so whether or not we are part of EU. But if they were imposed to punish EU (they weren't imposed on Australia) then maybe we could negotiate different treatment if we were not part of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 06:46 AM

One non-financial benefit of leaving will be to remove tariff barriers from poor countries eager to sell their produce to us.
Poor farmworkers will see their lives improved.

Jim, "getting rid of immigrants" was never a Leave argument.
Leave just advocated a fairer system that did not racially discriminate against non-Europeans.
No-one advocated an end to immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 08:32 AM

I would understand perfectly if you do not want to respond until Saturday but rumour has it that the proposal due out will be at the softer end of Brexit: you may be much more under the ECJ rules than many leavers would like. As I say "wait and see what happens" is a fair response, but I wonder if that would cross personal red lines for Brexiteers here, given what some of the benefits you see of leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 08:39 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 08:41 AM

HOW TO BE NOT ABOUT GETTING RID OF IMMIGRANTS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 08:43 AM

If we are not allowed to trade freely, we have not really left.
If we are still subject to EU regulations, we have not left.
I am sure a large proportion of the population will find that unacceptable, but what can you do against the vested interest of the ruling elite? They always get what they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 08:48 AM

Nigel, the corollary of what you say is that, at present, UK passport holders have the right of entry to any EU country. This is an important and highly valuable right, far more important in my view than keeping EU citizens out. This is what makes us so angry, me anyway, to have this right taken away by people too lazy to make use of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 09:15 AM

David,
If you believe that Brexit will prevent you visiting other EU countries, I trust that you will be pleasantly surprised by the outcome. You may be prevented from settling in other EU countries, but that is a different matter entirely.
You seem to think that to have this right taken away by people too lazy to make use of it only those who never travel abroad have voted Brexit. In my case, and I would assume for millions of others, this is just not true.
I have visited much of Euprope, both recently, and before we joined the 'Common Market'. Getting in to Europe was no harder pre the common market than it is now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 09:23 AM

How true it is remains to be seen, but while visiting the country is not likely to be an issue, working in it might be. Sending engineers to service parts in other countries is one of the things Airbus raised. It is also one of the things the EU raises because for things like engines, product, maintenance and training are intimately linked, Hence the. EUare very reluctant to separate goods and services. A right to work in other countries doesn't just apply to those who want to live there for years; it also applies to people going for a few days on business.

Of course, sensible negotiation could sort that out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 09:43 AM

Incidentally
"Poor farmworkers will see their lives improved."
Utter and complete bollocks
Britain has never shown the slightest interest in the lives of the people of countries we trade with
All we are interested is being able to buy goods from countries with non-existent safety standards and below survival-level wages in order to get tham as cheaply as possible -
SEE PRIMARK as an example
OR PENNEYS
OR THE REST

You must be referring to The Planet Zog
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 09:52 AM

I spent decades working outside the EU with no problems. If the EU wishes to insist on visas we can easily reciprocate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_United_Kingdom

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 09:53 AM

It's not just that, Jim, it's the hidden costs that these people tend to ignore. If I buy something manufactured in the EU it may be a bit more expensive than something from China or Mexico but the ecological costs of getting it here from halfway round the world seems to escape the brexiteers. Or maybe it doesn't and they just don't care.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 10:45 AM

Britain has never shown the slightest interest in the lives of the people of countries we trade with

Even if that were true, they will be able to sell their produce in our market without tariff barriers against them. That will improve their lives.

Wiki, "The fair trade movement is popular in the UK, where there are 500 Fairtrade towns, 118 universities, over 6,000 churches, and over 4,000 UK schools registered in the Fairtrade Schools Scheme"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 10:49 AM

The fact that many out of season fruit and vegetables fly halfway round the world and rare earths in virtually every electronic device are mined in China(80%) seems to totally escape the remainiacs, or perhaps they just do not care.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 10:49 AM

something manufactured in the EU it may be a bit more expensive than something from China or Mexico but the ecological costs of getting it here from halfway round the world seems to escape the brexiteers

That is just bollocks Dave. Compared to the "ecological damage" caused by intensive EU farming that is just a pin prick. Not even that!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 10:57 AM

"If the EU wishes to insist on visas we can easily reciprocate."
Love to be there when that happens while we're telling the Poles to piss of and stop taking our jobs and women
Somewhat 'having you cake and eating it'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 11:41 AM

UK has guaranteed the right to remain for all EU citizens here.
The EU has refused to reciprocate, preferring to keep our citizens as future bargaining counters.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 12:29 PM

The UK has done no such thing. They have guaranteed them the right to apply.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 01:08 PM

BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 01:10 PM

The thing about controlling immigration aka the power to decide who can and can't live in the UK panders to the whims of the powers that be to determine who does/doesn't meet the criteria they choose to apply.

There are already issues with people in the UK in relationships outside the UK, even married couples, as the policies favour people who are higher earners, based on an arbitrary amount? There has been no guarantee that this will not apply to anyone in a partnership with someone form the EU - now and in the future.

What gives any government the right to dictate who an individual is allowed to live together in a relationship with - I am not talking about marriages of convenience but real loving relationships.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 01:22 PM

Facts: With the caveat nothing is agreed until all is agreed



https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/joint_report.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 01:55 PM

BBC,
"She (Theresa May) has insisted that no EU national currently resident in the UK would have to leave at the point of Brexit and that people will be treated the same irrespective of their nationality.
The main feature is the offer of "settled status" for EU citizens, as well of nationals of Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland, who have been living legally and continuously in the UK for at least five years"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40379663

Yes they will have to apply for it, but all EU citizens qualify.
No such reassurance has been offerd to UK citizens in EU. Nothing for them to apply for.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 02:06 PM

there are some who have already left. others been told to go. our daughter lives in estonia with her partner and knows that as they don't earn enough they won't be able to come here so she has applied for estonian citizenship. if anyone is tempted to trust our government to deal with immigration policy sensibly or fairly - look at the windrush situation, or the people being detained or sent back to their countries of origin to face persecution and worse. the present government are not only incompetent but cruel beyond belief. no wonder they want to escape their responsibilities by getting out of their human rights obligations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 02:51 PM

They are really clutching at straws now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:01 PM

Theresa May "insisting" and a legally binding commitment are different things.

Many UK citizens in the EU can apply for citizenship of the countries they reside in. In Germany if they have been resident for 8 years. Not "settled status", full citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 12:34 AM

By the way
Good political and economic governance is based on planning for the future - not "reading the entrails"' correct, thatis why Cakerons political gamble was idiotic

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 04:20 AM

Many UK citizens in the EU can apply for citizenship of the countries they reside in.

That changes when we leave. They have yet to say what will happen to UK folk then.

thatis why Cakerons political gamble was idiotic

All the parties offered a referendum because UKIP did, and they might have won the general election as they did the European election. That was the gamble.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 04:43 AM

it was an irresponsible gamble, no responsible politician should offer such a plan when there was no idea how to implement it, it exposes a politician [cameron] who does not have interest of the nation but only has the interest of getting votes for himself and his party. cmron is a millionaire [who has an im alright jack attitude] so much for patriotism ,what kind of patriot is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 04:46 AM

Lib Dems and Labour made the same offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 10:33 AM

Today it is reported that both the British Chamber of Commerce and the Professional and Business Services Council have expressed their frustration at the complete lack of clarity regarding Brexit that has come from the government so far. (could some provide a link to todays Business pages of the Guardian)

Two years down the line and we still do not know how Brexit will affects us. The only forecast have been extremely negative.

Anyone got any goo...................

Don't bother I know you haven't

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 11:39 AM

Guardian

This one?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 12:41 PM

now that we seem to be reaching a beginning of the end in the Brexit negotiations with the govt sleep over this weekend, are any brexiteers willing to admit to any doubts about the project? Have you decided who you are going to blame if the 'plan' isn't the one you want? anyone thinking -'oh sod it, it was a daft idea anyway?'
could be your last chance to step back from the cliff and claim a bit of sanity before it's too late

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 01:13 PM

The problem of that who to 'blame when it goes wrong' concerns me a lot. Whether we have no deal, or withdraw Article 50 or have a hard or soft Brexit, there are likely to be a lot of very angry people come the next election, blaming someone - anyone - that their ideal hasn't happened. There is a very good chance some popularist party will be created which is very Nationalistic hoping to hoover up all the voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 01:35 PM

good point - there has been efforts on both side of the pond to encourage nationalist sentiment against us traitors and any other group of victims they choose

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 02:17 PM

i like the number 5

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 02:24 PM

Congrats, then. Took me a moment to work out what you meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 02:42 PM

are any brexiteers willing to admit to any doubts about the project? Have you decided who you are going to blame if the 'plan' isn't the one you want? anyone thinking -'oh sod it, it was a daft idea anyway?'

The ruling elite liked things as they were.
That is why a new party had to arise before the people got a say.
Now the elite have taken back control. Unless it is taken away from them again nothing will happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 03:04 PM

Thats the one, thank you Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 03:15 AM

It is not just the elite taking back control, but the elite being best placed as the vultures to pick on the bones, and who will profit from no longer being tied to the responsibilities of Europe wide cooperation.

And who will really profit if the EU is destabilise and 28 states start ageessively competing to protect there own corners? Possibily those who trade on the basis of market fluctuations?

I,and everyone else should only accept leaving if the elite are legally bound to protect and compensate the rest of the population from 100% of adverse impacts.   FDor example,why is May and her government and their familes not out working in the fields 24 hours a day, seven days a week to replace the lack of seasonal crop picking workers this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 03:51 AM

For example, why are May and her government and their families not out working in the fields 24 hours a day, seven days a week to replace the lack of seasonal crop picking workers this year.

So, you believe good labour laws should only apply to supporters of the Labour Party?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 04:50 AM

Brexit campaign expected to be found guilty of breaking electoral law.

Can we expect the referendum to be re-run? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 04:51 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 04:46 AM

Lib Dems and Labour made the same offer. The Conservative party were responsible for implementing the offer they made, please no more red herrings or reds under the bed diversions

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 08:41 AM

From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 04:43 AM
"no responsible politician should offer such a plan when there was no idea how to implement it, it exposes a politician [cameron] "


Lib Dems and Labour made the same offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 10:25 AM

Keith,
It's no good harping on about Labour and Lib Dems making the same offer.
It's clear enough that the Labour Party promising a referendum cannot be treated as a promise of a referendum. History makes that clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 10:33 AM

Nigel, are we to take from this the fact that we can't believe promises Labour clearly makes? The world should be told!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 10:38 AM

Point taken, Nigel, but there are many broken promises across all parties. The main thing here is that Cameron delivered on the promise but had no contingency plan whatsoever following the leave result that occurred. That was pure idiocy and a gamble that no politician should take with the country. The fact that he immediately resigned following the result and left the government with no clue as to what to do next speaks for itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 10:44 AM

If he hadn't immediately resigned, and admitted he had no plans for following up on a leave vote, I imagine you would have been calling for his resignation anyway.

He would be damned either way. Personally I think he should have stuck with it, and immediately issued Article 50, as promised. With a two-year timescale we would be out by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 11:13 AM

Yes Nigel we may have got out and been in an even bigger pickle than we are now. Two years, plus, have passed and our government cannot even tell business concerns the rules have may or may not have to follow. They cannot tell us, the citizens anything positive about our future. The only forecast we read are negative or extremely negative.

Are you seriously suggesting that this is the way to govern the county??

Have you a.............. no of course not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 11:29 AM

We might have been in a bigger pickle (on the acceptance that that your description of the current state of affairs).
We might have been better situated, as we wouldn't have had a High court case about whether to issue Article 50. If it had been done immediately it would be fait accompli. This would possibly also have reduced just how much influence the Lords would have over the process.

Are you seriously suggesting that this is the way to govern the county
Which county? I'm in Cardiff (previously South Glamorgan)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 11:52 AM

Ye gods and little fishes, if you have to pick up on a typo you really have no counter argument to offer do you.

Not really surprised though Nigel, no one on the Brexit side seems to have a clue about the future except "wer taking back cuntrol" and even that is more of a wish than a reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 12:14 PM

Nigel. Neither Cameron not anyone could have immediately triggered article 50 as the court case proved. It had to be put to parliament and follow due parliamentary process. Quite right too. I would have thought that you as a brexiteer would be all for giving the UK government control!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 12:38 PM


It's no good harping on about Labour and Lib Dems making the same offer.

It certainly isn't. That people who dismiss all analyses as speculation want to spend time speculating about what Labour and LibDem would have done is a more than little absurd.

Let us talk instead about the latest financial 'speculations': it appears Hammond will present costs of all proposed options to the cabinet on Friday.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 12:57 PM

The Treasury was wrong about consequence of voting leave. It is still "the beating heart" of Remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 01:34 PM

"We might have been better situated, as we wouldn't have had a High court case about whether to issue Article 50. If it had been done immediately it would be fait accompli. This would possibly also have reduced just how much influence the Lords would have over the process."

Sure. And why not organise a military coup while you're at it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 04:13 PM

Dace, surely you mean parliament, not government. I am bemused that those to spouted the tenet, bringing control back to the people sre steadfastly against the people having any say on future direction of the UK going a single iota againstg what they want and their own interpetation of the will of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 04:54 PM

I did, SPB. Mentioned parliament earlier so thought most would realise, as you did, but thanks for pointing it out for those who did not. It amazes me too and I agree with what you say about their own interpretation. Doesnt surprise though as the only reason given for voting leave up to now has been pure optimism! Wish I could share it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 05:25 PM

Sure. And why not organise a military coup while you're at it?
has keith got any miltary experience?Ithought it was Teribus who had been in the army, although i am not sure what rank

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 05:28 PM

Indeed, SPB. They also seem to assume every one of the 17.4 million have exactly the same view and priorities that they personally have. For example, it is perfectly reasonable that some people who voted leave are prepared to pay more for more benefits, and others would rather lose some benefit if they paid less. That level of variation within the leave group would be normal on any vote. I see no sign it is ever recognised by leavers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 06:08 PM

It was Nigel's suggested retreat from parliamentary democracy that I was referring to, Dick, not to anything Keith said. True Tory colours, of course. Parliament is so inconvenient to these Tories. Good job we have people like Gina Miller to rein them in.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 03:57 AM

Nigel. Neither Cameron not anyone could have immediately triggered article 50 as the court case proved. It had to be put to parliament and follow due parliamentary process. Quite right too. I would have thought that you as a brexiteer would be all for giving the UK government control!

But that was what I understood was to have happened. David Cameron's statement in Parliament: Prime Minister David Cameron yesterday set out the details of the UK-EU deal in the House of Commons. He argued that the referendum would be “a straight democratic decision… Having a second renegotiation followed by a second referendum is not on the ballot paper.” He went on to say that “If the British people vote to leave, there is only one way to bring that about, namely to trigger article 50 of the treaties and begin the process of exit, and the British people would rightly expect that to start straight away.” (from Here)
The court case didn't prove that Cameron would have been unable to do it. He would not have been bound by a court case which hadn't happened. It was only the delay in the process which allowed someone to bring that forward with an attempt to thwart Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 04:07 AM

From: Steve Shaw

It was Nigel's suggested retreat from parliamentary democracy that I was referring to, Dick, not to anything Keith said. True Tory colours, of course. Parliament is so inconvenient to these Tories. Good job we have people like Gina Miller to rein them in.

I made no such suggestion. The speech I quoted below makes clear what David Cameron stated in Parliament. There was a majority vote to hold the referendum.
The leave vote won the referendum.
Article 50 should then have been issued.

Anyone who believes that it should first have been voted on (again) by Parliament needs only to look at the result of the vote after the court case, an overwhelming vote to issue article 50. Do you believe that the vote, if held immediately after the referendum,(rather than later) could have gone any other way?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 04:23 AM

And why not organise a military coup while you're at it?

Military?
Why not just a popular revolt against a self interested and out of touch ruling establishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 05:01 AM

Has anyone thought about the costs of setting up and staffing UK only regulatory bodies - replicating the work of perfectly good europe-wide bodies. Where the money come from to pay the wages of the leeches who will work for the bodies. Definitely not the tax-payers, there are more important front line services to pay for. Oh, this magic money coming back fromthe EU? I see include it all in the NHS budget???? How will lack of harmonisation in future regulation be addressed, eg fisheries policy, environmental policy, consumer safety, etc, tax harmonisation (ie no one sate being allowed to offer preferential corporation tax rates to unfairly attract trade?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 05:22 AM

You have no grounds whatsoever for claiming that Gina Miller's successful attempt to maintain parliamentary democracy (at the expense of the exercising of a prerogative that the courts decided that May doesn't have) was an attempt to "thwart Brexit." That's just neurotic. Brexit is no sacred cow, we live in a democracy in which free speech is enjoyed and anyone who wants to is fully entitled to argue against brexit and ensure that proper procedure is being followed, right up to the last minute. It's amusing that people like you who bleat on about the referendum result being the democratic will of the people, etc., persist in arguing against that and in vilifying people such as Gina Miller (and those judges). Absolute rank hypocrisy. You have no counter-argument, that's your trouble, just a load of pie-in-the-sky, jam tomorrow, it'll be all right on the night pipe dreams about the post-brexit world. It's very troubling to you that we remainers won't keep conveniently quiet, and so it should be. Enjoy your insecurity. There are very good grounds for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 05:36 AM

The ruling establishment in Parliament agreed to let the people decide.
We did, but it did not suit them so they conspire to overturn the result.
I agree Steve, with the help of all the quislings Brexit may never happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 05:39 AM

David Cameron's statement in Parliament...

Excuse me while I react to anything that pig-f****r general ever stated in parliament.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Sorry, I missed one

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 05:49 AM

Has anyone thought about the costs of setting up and staffing UK only regulatory bodies - replicating the work of perfectly good europe-wide bodies.

We pay more than our share of those EU bodies because we are one of the biggest contributors, so that will be another saving.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 05:55 AM

You have no grounds whatsoever for claiming that Gina Miller's successful attempt to maintain parliamentary democracy (at the expense of the exercising of a prerogative that the courts decided that May doesn't have) was an attempt to "thwart Brexit." That's just neurotic.
The Guardian ( a tabloid often quoted by Remainers) describes gina Miller as: "The anti-Brexit activist". You may see her as a pro-democracy activist, but others see her differently.

The Brexit is no sacred cow, we live in a democracy in which free speech is enjoyed and anyone who wants to is fully entitled to argue against brexit and ensure that proper procedure is being followed, right up to the last minute. It's amusing that people like you who bleat on about the referendum result being the democratic will of the people, etc., persist in arguing against that and in vilifying people such as Gina Miller (and those judges). Absolute rank hypocrisy. I have not Vilified Gina Miller, or the judges. You're in rant mode once again.

You have no counter-argument, that's your trouble, just a load of pie-in-the-sky, jam tomorrow, it'll be all right on the night pipe dreams about the post-brexit world. It's very troubling to you that we remainers won't keep conveniently quiet, and so it should be.
To have a 'counter-argument' requires an argument to be put forward first. What argument are you expecting me to counter?

Enjoy your insecurity. There are very good grounds for it.
I'm not insecure. You're the one imitating Chicken Little: "The sky is falling, the sky is falling"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 06:51 AM

So you think 10% (and I am being over generous as there are 28 states sharing the costs, with a percentage paying the same, close to or I think in one or two case more than the UK - I don't have time to dif up the contribution by member - and I have ballpark figure of only 6% of the member contributions being used for infrasteucture, expenses - the rest being for operational programmes, costs more than staffing and accommodating a regulatory body in its entirity, not forgetting the internal market charges across the civil service infrastructure. So lets see - I will be generous and pretend the rebate doesn't exists - 6% of £350m/week, to duplicate every regulatory body. Once UK picks up the tab for its own domestic versions of operational programmes, plus the promise of contributing towards the NHS I doubt if their will be anything left in the pot to cover this. The tax payer will be in for a shock I have no problem if the civil servants work for free, and pay for their overheads out of their own pockets. I suppose the government can chose to just crap on people who benefit from programmes that address area, regional, and individual deprivation. That's what people who vote Tory love doing most, ism't it? I don't think many people would take up the work offer, though? Maybe, the way round would be to employ the staff, make them redundant, and then make them work for free in the same jobs for their Universal Credit? That sounds a bit of a familiar scenario, doesn't it - remember the work programme?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 07:00 AM

It doesn't matter what the Guardian calls her. Her successful court case was not to do with "thwarting brexit" but was everything to do with ensuring that the prime minister did not assume powers that she was not entitled to assume. In that regard we could consider Gina Miller to be a damn sight more democratically-minded than an arrogant and weak prime minister who tried to sidestep parliamentary process. And the sky might not yet have fallen in but our economy is ailing, business confidence is low, productivity is flat-lining and the pound is almost a basket case. And, oh I nearly forgot, we have no brexit plan. We've fallen three-quarters of the way down the building. Some of us can see the ground coming at us rapidly whereas you are enjoying the puffy little clouds and the birdsong whilst whistling a merry tune. Enjoy. You haven't got long.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 07:40 AM

Yep, definitely Chicken Little:

It doesn't matter what the Guardian calls her. Her successful court case was not to do with "thwarting brexit" but was everything to do with ensuring that the prime minister did not assume powers that she was not entitled to assume. In that regard we could consider Gina Miller to be a damn sight more democratically-minded than an arrogant and weak prime minister who tried to sidestep parliamentary process. And the sky might not yet have fallen in but our economy is ailing, business confidence is low, productivity is flat-lining and the pound is almost a basket case. And, oh I nearly forgot, we have no brexit plan. We've fallen three-quarters of the way down the building. Some of us can see the ground coming at us rapidly whereas you are enjoying the puffy little clouds and the birdsong whilst whistling a merry tune. Enjoy. You haven't got long.

"Productivity is flatlining: UK productivity grows strongly but still lags behind Europe (Telegraph 7.May)
"economy is ailing": UK economic growth bounces back (Guardian 4 July 2018)
"we have no brexit plan": We have no agreed and published Brexit plan.

Again, a post containing many of Steve Shaw's beliefs, but a little short on anything to back them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 08:20 AM

You can't win,, Steve. Any gloomy predictions require proof while all that is required for sweetness and light is blind optimism and fairy dust.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 08:47 AM

Any gloomy predictions require proof
I'm not requesting 'proof' just a source (other than the thoughts of Steve Shaw).
My optimism about Brexit can only have any proof once Brexit has actually happened. I don't need to prove that I am optimistic, I can state it as first hand knowledge.
I'm so sorry that these concepts are so difficult to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 08:50 AM

From Nigel's first link:

British businesses need to up their game and be more productive or risk losing out as the country leaves the European Union, industry bosses have warned. Productivity in the UK grew by 0.9pc and 0.7pc in the final two quarters of 2017, the strongest growth since 2011.

But, the UK’s output per hour is still around a quarter behind competitors like France and Germany, meaning it takes British workers five days to produce what others achieve in four.

“The UK has a long way to go in order to catch up with our European neighbours,” said Tony Danker, chief executive of Be the Business, an industry-led organisation created to help close the UK’s productivity gap.

“With less than a year to go before we leave the EU, bosses must start now to make the most of the opportunities it presents and make Britain’s economy the most competitive in Europe.”

From Nigel's second link:

But companies reiterated that Brexit-related uncertainty had held back investment, affecting spending by large companies in particular."

Amusing to see someone making links that actually undermine his own arguments!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 09:01 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 08:50 AM

From Nigel's first link:

British businesses need to up their game and be more productive or risk losing out as the country leaves the European Union, industry bosses have warned. Productivity in the UK grew by 0.9pc and 0.7pc in the final two quarters of 2017, the strongest growth since 2011.

This related to your statement that productivity was 'flatlining', which I think most would understand to mean zero-growth (a flat line on a graph or heartbeat monitor)
"Flatlining" is not a relative term, decided by reference to other member states.

Now we have Chicken Little trying to be Humpty Dumpty. "When I use a word it means what I intend it to mean"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 09:12 AM

Productivity will of course only begin to drop when we lose access to the productive EU immigrant workforce.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 10:30 AM

My optimism about Brexit can only have any proof once Brexit has actually happened. I don't need to prove that I am optimistic, I can state it as first hand knowledge.
I'm so sorry that these concepts are so difficult to understand.

My pessimism about Brexit is founded on the plethora of economic and business studies that predict things will be grim. I don't need to prove that I am pessimistic, I can state it as first hand knowledge and have good reason to be so.
I'm so sorry that these concepts are so difficult to understand.

Now stop being so patronising and give us something to offset the pessimism. Other than a blind belief that things will be better.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 11:27 AM

"Now stop being so patronising and give us something to offset the pessimism. Other than a blind belief that things will be better."

They have nothing to offer, other than 'blind belief'. Bamboozled and blinded by a bunch of self-serving liars working on behalf of the tiny, immensely wealthy minority who are the only ones certain to benefit from Brexit, and especially from a 'hard' Brexit.

So stupid, they either don't know, or don't have the cojones to confess, how stupid they were, so they continue defending that which the level-headed, clear thinkers amongst us know is indefensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 11:35 AM

"they continue defending that which the level-headed, clear thinkers amongst us know is indefensible."

I do enjoy a good laugh now and again!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 11:47 AM

Yes, laugh it up while you can, mutton-head. You'll have a very long time to wonder WTF you were thinking of when you voted Leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 12:51 PM

My optimism about Brexit can only have any proof once Brexit has actually happened. I don't need to prove that I am optimistic, I can state it as first hand knowledge.
I'm so sorry that these concepts are so difficult to understand.

That is not difficult in the least to understand. You can be as optimistic as you like, no problem.

However, if you want anyone else to share that optimism, you need to explain the foundations of it to them. Is that difficult to understand?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 02:43 PM

Put far better than I did DMcG. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 03:35 PM

I would have thought it obvious that the voting pattern in the referendum reflected those that had positive and negative thoughts about brexit. After all do turkeys vote for christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 05:17 PM

You, Keefy, and Nigs did.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 05:40 PM

So please tell us what gave rise to your optimism at the time and what, after all the negative reports we have had, keeps that optimism alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 03:40 AM

what, after all the negative reports we have had, keeps that optimism alive.

'Negative reports'?
Unless you've something specific, most of what we hear from remainers are reports of negative forecasts. Just as we can't give the positives until we are in a post Brexit situation, you will not know the accuracy of those forecasts until the same time.
Our voting (or mine at least) was not purely based on optimism. There was also pessimism about the future of the EU and our relationship with it. That pessimism was based on the results of decades of membership of the EU.

A woman doesn't have to know what her future position will be in order to get out of a bad marriage. It may be enough just to decide she wants to get out. Although, as I understand it, many women can't make the decision to get out, and remain in abusive marriages although they know nothing will get better, and it may well get worse.

The latest news from Theresa May does not fill me with confidence, but I still want to see us break our (current) ties with the EU.

DMcG: However, if you want anyone else to share that optimism, you need to explain the foundations of it to them. Is that difficult to understand?

It is not my job to persuade you of the benefits and convert you to my optimism. You can continue being pessimistic. Enough people already feel that we would be better getting out of the EU (for one reason or another, and yes, there may be some xenophobes among that number) for the Brexit referendum to have been won.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:27 AM

It is not my job to persuade you of the benefits and convert you to my optimism.

Yet you continue to laud the benefits of brexit. Why is that? If you are not trying to persuade anyone else maybe you are trying to convince yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:33 AM

We don't yet know what will be decided at the Chequers meeting, but a lot of Brexiteers seem unhappy that we might be moving closer to "Brexit in name only'.

Just wondering if that would affect your optimism, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:35 AM

I'm trying to alleviate the doom and gloom being spread by others.
Also to prevent false information from being spread around as 'facts' when it is just guesswork.

For a lot of the posters here, this thread would just act as an echo chamber if there was no one to put the opposite view.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:44 AM

Well I have said that I do not expect things to be as bad as some fear (and certainly not as good as some hope.)   Like Thomas Hardy, I think it will be largely "neutral tinted haps and such". But I do think it will have significantly darker tints than now, especially for the individual. The softer the Brexit, the less the damage. But damage there will be, I have no doubt. I do not "believe" the forecasts in the sense of whether the numbers are accurate: the world is too complicated for that. But is the general tone of them believable? I reckon so.   And I do believe Airbus and LandRover and Nissen and the rest understand their business better than anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:45 AM

'Brexit in name only' would certainly affect my feelings on the matter.
My optimism over Brexit is based on us making the clean break that was part of the original referendum.
If we remain too closely tied to the EU my previous pessimism (about the EU) is likely to resurface. We could be left with the worst combinations of the wishes of both the Brexit and the Remain camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:45 AM

I'm trying to alleviate the doom and gloom being spread by others.

But you are not doing so, Nigel. If you can explain what your optimism is based on I may not be convinced but at least I may be a bit more hopeful. There are no economists backing up the claims that prices will go down, business will boom and all will be sunshine and roses, so where do you get these ideas from?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:50 AM

making the clean break that was part of the original referendum

The referendum asked just one question

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Making a clean break is your own interpretation of a very complex question that was over simplified.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:59 AM

"Making a clean break is your own interpretation of a very complex question that was over simplified."

Don't be ridiculous! A vote is always a yes/no. One day you may learn to accept the majority enfranchised and interested enough voted for out.

The disenfranchised, those not old enough and those too idle to vote
are of zero significance. They had no impact on the final outcome. They are an irrelevance, rather like your continuous wittering.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:05 AM

Try this one: By a member of the Adam Smith institute

I didn't mention sunshine & roses, nor the 'unicorns' that some people keep on bringing up (possibly for comic effect)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:11 AM

That last response was to: There are no economists backing up the claims that prices will go down, business will boom and all will be sunshine and roses, so where do you get these ideas from?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:12 AM

That's a very big if, Nigel but thanks for the link. I shall read it thoroughly later and hope it does allay some fears.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:20 AM

Hmmmm. Not a long article so I have now read through it twice. It seems that the 'special interests' to be ignored are primarily the NFU and food standards. If cheaper food means our own farmers going to the wall and a reduction in food standards then, to be honest, I do not want cheaper food.

Still, you are to be commended for trying at least Nigel. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:41 AM

"...and those too idle to vote are of zero significance. They had no impact on the final outcome. They are an irrelevance..."

You do not know why millions of people didn't vote. Some may have been too idle. Some may have been undecided. Some may not have felt qualified to decide. Some may have been too ill. Some may have been preoccupied with other serious matters in their lives. Some may have been opposed to referendums on principle. It is not for you to judge that non-voters were "too idle." As for having no impact, well the final outcome was a leave vote. I voted remain, therefore I also had no impact on the final outcome. I'm a member of your irrelevants just as much as a non-voter. This haughty attitude betrayed by you and a lot of others in your 38% demonstrates a severe lack of understanding of democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:46 AM

It's a relevant point as Johnson did not advertise the adverse risks on the side of the bus. Therefore, surely, those who STILL want to leave have no moral right to impose lowering of living standards on the rest of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:54 AM

Don't be ridiculous! A vote is always a yes/no

And Brexit-in-name-only still abides by that vote.

(Not that I think it a good idea, but it does.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 06:43 AM

He is best just ignored. It is the only way to deal with such petulance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 08:04 AM

"He is best just ignored. It is the only way to deal with such petulance. "

You mean you have no rational counter argument. Wot a surprise! I see Steve is still trying to argue that the ayes have it is not democracy.
Only in the remainiacs eyes,I assure you.

The ballot box cares not a fig for those that did not vote and gives not a whit for their reasons.
As I keep pointing out THEY ARE AN IRRELEVANCE!

Turnout 72.2%. Rejected ballots 26,033 ... 52% to 48%. Leave won the majority of votes. The turnout also exceeded the number for all General Elections since 1997.
Democracy in action! Leave won! Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 08:09 AM

QED

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 08:09 AM

Dave, set an example by ignoring all of us yourself.
It could hardly make you more irrelevant!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 08:33 AM

QED
The acme of 19500 posts!
Says it all really.

Never mind no doubt a fellow poster will have something pertinent to say in a while. A quality sadly lacking from the posts of the gnome.

He reminds me of a border collie. They approach wagging their tails, and whip round as they pass to sink their teeth into you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 08:58 AM

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 09:30 AM

"He reminds me of a border collie. They approach wagging their tails, and whip round as they pass to sink their teeth into you."

Words like Kettle, Pot, Black, Glasshouses, and Stones spring readily to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 09:36 AM

That's it from me on those two now, Raggy. I can only suggest you and others employ the same tactic.

It is impossible to conduct a decent discussion with Keith at the table, twisting, turning and making up his own rules. We now know that talking through him is the only way to avoid his nonsense. Even the most tolerant of posters has now called it a day. It is becoming increasingly apparent that any discussion Iains is also becoming intolerable with the puerile abuse and wild mood swings. I suggest that he should also be avoided at all costs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 09:38 AM

Sorry - I was responding to you BWM, not Raggy but the same still applies :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 10:10 AM

Gotcha Dave. I agree on all points.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 11:25 AM

Why don't you people go on PM to tell each other how bad Brexit is?
You would never have to read anything that tells you the other side of the story then.

Pretending not to read our posts just makes you look silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 12:31 PM

Well then, tell us precisely how BrexShit will benefit the people of the U.K. Not the immensely-wealthy tiny minority who will benefit by being able to continue offshoring their wealth, but the ordinary man and woman in the street, the student, the sick, the unemployed, etc. Exactly what is going to change to make their lives better?

Don't come up with the bollocks about 'taking are cuntry back', we never lost it. Don't drivel on about 'make our own laws', we've always been able to do that. Don't bullshit about 'the EU won't be able to tell us what to do', every law which has originated from the EU has been ratified by our own parliament and, in any case, that's only 13% of UK law made since we joined the EU.

Just give us a list of the ways in which the majority of people in the UK are going to be better off - the benefits which persuaded you to vote Leave.

Bet you don't, because you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 01:07 PM

That question needs to be answered, not In terms of what they see as the best of all possible worlds, but in terms of the outcome of the Chequers meeting. That is still unknown at the moment, but when it does finally come out - and on the assumption it is not more fudge - that's when I'd like to hear the benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 01:11 PM

Norra lorra movement in Chequers today except of the bowels
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 01:57 PM

Must be time for a resurgence of ukip. The tory and labour supporters of brexit are being betrayed. Let us welcome back Mr. Farage!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 02:35 PM

"Let us welcome back Mr. Farage!"
Had he ever gone away?
Thought he was posting here under the name Iai....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 02:58 PM

For your delectation and delight:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfj6MipMYaY

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 03:52 PM

Very interesting. Now, how about that list of benefits?

Put up, or STFU, squaddie.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:00 PM

As Nigel mentioned marriage in his post at 03.40 am perhaps it would be pertinant to link to another report in todays Guardian entitled "Rudderless and riven by Brexit"

It gives a resume of the party that are tasked with leading us of of the EU.

To hell in a hand cart comes to mind. It mentions several items that have been questioned on here.

Could someone please do the honours.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:09 PM

So id May going to guarantee freedom of movement, and no customs restrictions for all UK citizens travelling to from EU, or is she a useless piece of proverbial?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:23 PM

As far as I can see SPB, it is the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 06:18 PM

"Put up, or STFU, squaddie."

No! An officer and a gentleman, unlike your goodself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 07:13 PM

From: SPB-Cooperator - PM
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:09 PM

So id May going to guarantee freedom of movement, and no customs restrictions for all UK citizens travelling to from EU, or is she a useless piece of proverbial?

I would try to respond to that if it actually made any sense.
Apart from the typos, and the inability to write in English, There are already customs restrictions on travelling between EU/UK.
There are restrictions on bringing in live animals.
there are restrictions on bringing in live plants.
There are restrictions on bringing in alcohol & tobacco.

So if Mrs May guaranteed freedom of movement, and no customs restrictions, it would be a massive change from what we already have.

But feel free to continue putting forward crap arguments. We've become used to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 07:19 PM

Guardian article requested by Raggytash

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 07:24 PM

Once again, many thanks Nigel.

As I am sure you are aware, with limited access I cannot link myself.

Cheers, if we ever meet I owe you a pint (or two)!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 07:28 PM

No problem. We may (do) disagree on Brexit, but from our place here I guess we're kindred spirits on other matters.

I would probably also buy a round. (but don't quote me on that!)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 07:30 PM

All in the same Nigel post:

"I would try to respond to that if it actually made any sense.
Apart from the typos, and the inability to write in English, There are already customs restrictions on travelling between EU/UK."

Then:

"there are restrictions on bringing in live plants."

Gosh, Niglets, is that lack of a capital T a typo, or is it your inability to write in English? Then there's that capital T of yours in the word "There" after a mere comma... Tsk, Nigel. People in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:09 AM

Given there is an attempt to compress a 120-page document into a few paragraphs, exactly what has been agreed is still a bit unclear. But all the papers seem to agree that the cabinet have approved a softish Brexit as the objective. Since a negotiation normally ends up somewhere between the negotiators' positions, it is likely we will end up with an even softer one, and my guess is services and trade will be treated the same.

Much will depend on what the hard Brexiteers do in the next week or two, and Bill Cash, for example, did not sound too happy on Newsnight.

But never fear, leavers, it looks as if we are leaving, in line with the referendum result

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:43 AM

As I said earlier, I don't see a revitalisation of UKIP out of this: I fear that a much darker party might be coming up, with a manifesto to weaken the judges, the House of Lords, and all checks on the government - which they would hope to be them. They will do so, not so much based on the EU, but by playing on the anger of all those who feel cheated in any way. And their support could be very evenly spread throughout every constituency.

The next election might be a very dangerous time. I very much hope I am wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:59 AM

I may be able to buy the pint on Raggy's behalf with a bit of luck and a good wind behind me :-) See Moira thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 03:54 AM

BWM,
Exactly what is going to change to make their lives better?

You could just look back at the Leave campaign of 2016. You only seem to remember the claim about extra money for the NHS. There was much more and it resulted in a clear defeat for Remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 04:06 AM

My concern is that May will not concede on Freedom of Momement. Freedom of Movement is our Freedom, it provides us with countless opportunities to live, work and study across the EU. Sadly, many do not appreciate these opportunities and are prepared to throw them away in order to have less immigrants. Even setting aside the good that the immigrants do for our economy and society, the loss of opportunity for our young people is truly heartbreaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 04:37 AM

Ending freedom of movement was a Tory manifesto promise.
Labour Party also. "Labour would end free movement but not 'sever ties' with EU, Starmer says "
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/24/labour-vows-to-rip-up-and-rethink-brexit-white-paper

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 04:44 AM

Labour Manifesto, "freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union"
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 05:05 AM

I think it very likely that Freedom of Movement in its current form will end, David, if only because May needs to show we got something out of Brexit and there is no great lobby group fighting for it, if we agree the mobility framework (BBC quote follows):

a "mobility framework" will ensure UK and EU citizens can continue to travel to each other's territories and apply for study and work

That could be enough to keep businesses happy, whether we are talking fruit pickers or Airbus sending support staff overseas. It will not help the individual outside of business very much, but as I say no-one is really fighting for them.


So, I think it quite likely Freedom of Movement will end -- except the EU needs to maintain its four freedoms for its own purposes. And I don't think May would jettison the whole caboodle over that. So whether it is kept or not is far more to do with the EU, in my opinion. If the EU do insist upon it, I think we will end up with a relabeling so that it is not called 'Freedom of Movement' but is so in all practical respects, with some minor difference that allows both sides to claim their goals met.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 06:33 AM

"An officer and a gentleman, unlike your goodself."

You have no idea when, where, or what my service consisted of, and therefore you are in no position to judge me in that regard. And, on the basis of your behaviour on this, and other, Mudcat threads, the evidence is that you are anything but a gentleman.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 06:49 AM

"You could just look back at the Leave campaign of 2016. You only seem to remember the claim about extra money for the NHS. There was much more and it resulted in a clear defeat for Remain."

More wriggling, Keefie? Not good enough, my feeble-minded, swivel-hipped friend.

You have stated yourself, on numerous occasions, that the Leave campaign was run on the basis of suggestions, hopes, and wishes for changes that BrexShit might bring. The situation now, two years on, is very different from that which obtained back in the heady days of red buses and blond buffoons parroting 'Take Back Control' at every sentence-end.

So...in the light of what has happened in the past two years, give us the list of benefits that will be enjoyed after the UK has left the EU - what benefits will be enjoyed, not by the tiny immensely-rich minority, the preservation of whose wealth and offshoring/tax-avoidance opportunities is, in fact, the sole reason for the existence of the Leave campaign, but by you, me, other UK 'Catters, young people, students, young professionals, the sick and disabled - in other words, ordinary people.

You won't, because you can't...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 07:03 AM

Yes Keith, both the Tories and Labour have let the British people down very badly over this. Even the Lib Dems were mealy mouthed, the only person (in England anyway) willing to stand up and say that Freedom of Movement is a fantastic benefit for the British People was Caroline Lucas.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 08:19 AM

BWM,
So...in the light of what has happened in the past two years, give us the list of benefits that will be enjoyed after the UK has left the EU - what benefits will be enjoyed,

Just those laid out in the Leave campaign for the referendum. Nothing has changed.

not by the tiny immensely-rich minority, the preservation of whose wealth and offshoring/tax-avoidance opportunities is, in fact, the sole reason for the existence of the Leave campaign

Those are the people who want in! They love the supply of cheap workers including their own domestics like nannies and gardeners. They love the extra rent they collect. They love the CAP largess for the biggest land owners. Their off shore money havens are nothing to do with EU.
The likes of Reese-Mogg are renegades.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 08:33 AM

David,
Yes Keith, both the Tories and Labour have let the British people down very badly over this. Even the Lib Dems were mealy mouthed, the only person (in England anyway) willing to stand up and say that Freedom of Movement is a fantastic benefit for the British People was Caroline Lucas.

Quite. Now beside the referendum result, consider the 2017 election.
The two Brexit parties achieved 82% of the vote.
The "mealy mouthed" Lib Dems got 7% and Caroline Lucas' party just 1.6%.

Remain lost even more emphatically and decisively than in the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 09:06 AM

Nevertheless the interests of the British people are best served by retaining Freedom of Movement. And most educated people understand that. And most of the productive people understand that. Its our voting system which is the problem, there is no minimum educational qualification.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 09:08 AM

"Yes Keith, both the Tories and Labour have let the British people down very badly over this. "
In fairness, the parties were handed a poisoned chalice by this decision - it was sold on a divisive ticket on the basis that the non-British section of the population were the cause of all Britain's troubles
Piwell tried this decades earlier and was kicked out on his arse - rightly
This time the sickness took hold
As much as I admire what a the Green Party stands for, their one-hit policies put them in a position where they can never have a significant voice
The Utopian suggestion that Farage, the beer swilling hate monger should ever return to the fray is, unfortunately a somewhat remote possibility
Should that ever happen, the whole Circus of Cards would come crashing around, forcing this shower of morons back to the drawing board - we wish!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 09:55 AM

"Those are the people who want in! They love the supply of cheap workers including their own domestics like nannies and gardeners. They love the extra rent they collect. They love the CAP largess for the biggest land owners. Their off shore money havens are nothing to do with EU."

All I can say to that delusional gem, Swivel-Hips, is that you must be living in some kind of parallel universe.

Barclay Brothers, owners of the Telegraph group, personal wealth £2.25 billion - Leavers.

Richard Desmond, Express group owner, personal wealth £1 billion. - Leaver

The Rothermere family, Associated Newspapers owner, family fortune £760 million - Leaver

300 top businessmen supporting Leave Campaign

Tell you what, educate yourself about the new EU Anti-Tax-Avoidance Regulations coming into effect in May 2019, ask yourself who will be affected by new rules requiring, amongst other things, taxes to be paid in the State in which the profits on which they are based are made, and work out why there's the rush to leave the EU by the end of March 2019.

If you don't understand that, then you're either being deliberately stupid, or Musket was absolutely correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 12:31 PM

"The EU has drafted an anti-tax avoidance directive, for approval by the European Council. As the UK has been a driving force behind the OECD-G20 BEPS project, the UK is already ahead of the curve in implementing the various anti-avoidance rules, such as a general anti-abuse rule, CFC rules. However, anti-hybrid rules are in Finance Bill 2016, and there is a question mark now hanging over the Finance Bill, since it would need to obtain Royal Assent by mid-October if it is to be enacted. A big issue for multinationals is undoubtedly the question of corporate interest deductibility, (broadly) set to be capped at 30% of EBITDA, which is also in the draft EU directive. However, as this was driven by the OECD-G20, it is highly unlikely the UK will shy away from this now. "
https://www.mazars.co.uk/Home/News-Events/Latest-news/Tax-News/Brexit-The-tax-implications

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 01:43 PM

Barclay Brothers, owners of the Telegraph group, personal wealth £2.25 billion - Leavers.

Richard Desmond, Express group owner, personal wealth £1 billion. - Leaver

The Rothermere family, Associated Newspapers owner, family fortune £760 million - Leaver

Rupert Murdoch, Sun owner, net worth $8.3 billion - rabid Leaver

300 top businessmen supporting Leave campaign

Gyrating like a Dervish again eh, Swivel-Hips? So...

1) please explain the precise meaning of your cut-and-paste in your own words, and the effect it will have on the immensely-wealthy tiny minority who seek to avoid UK taxes on the profits they make in the UK.

2) please comment on the immensely wealthy newspaper-owning businessmen, plus at least 300 others in the linked Telegraph article who, despite your claim to the contrary, are known to be supporters of the Leave campaign.

Your own words please, no cut-and-pastes.

You won't, because you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:31 PM

It also looks as if one of the things claimed as moral high ground for leaving - that immigration from the EU and the rest of the world will be treated the same way - may not happen either.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:32 PM

BWM, please try not to resort to name calling.
There are rich individuals on both sides, but the big multi-nationals all seem to be Remain. They are the worst tax avoiders.

My linked quote explained that UK was the main driver behind the EU tax avoidance directive and will abide by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:36 PM

DMcG, if that happens it will be due to Remain lobbying not Leave.
We do not want it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:59 PM

There is not, and never has been, any reason for the UK government to treat immigrants from the rest of the world differently from EU immigrants. It is just their policy, and specifically Theresa May's policy, to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 03:11 PM

BWM, please try not to resort to name calling.
There are rich individuals on both sides, but the big multi-nationals all seem to be Remain. They are the worst tax avoiders.

My linked quote explained that UK was the main driver behind the EU tax avoidance directive and will abide by it.

More wriggling, Swivel-Hips. You should start a new career as a belly-dancer, you could make a fortune. If you promise to cut out the wriggling fuckwittery, I'll promise to stop calling you Swivel-Hips. Your choice, I don't care either way.

In my earlier post, I said "the immensely rich tiny minority",and you responded "They are the ones who want to remain". I never mentioned multi-national businesses, I was speaking about individuals like the Rothermeres, Murdoch, Rees Mogg, and many others who seek to preserve their personal fortunes. You introduced multi-nationals - wriggling.

Whether the U.K. is the driver behind the EU Tax regulations is immaterial. Outside the EU, the U.K. can do whatever it wishes, whereas inside the EU it will be obliged to conform. It doesn't take the Brain of Britain to work out which alternative the Murdochs and Rothermeres of this world, who give the Tory government its orders, would prefer - hence the rabid pro-BrexShit propaganda spewed by their publications to bamboozle daft people like you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 03:18 PM

Backy, you're falling for it again. Don't go tnere!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 04:53 PM

Yeah, you're right, Dave, I should know better! I was just filling in a bit of spare time and amusing myself before setting off for The Smoke, and the Clapton/Steve Winwood/Santana concert in Hyde Park tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 02:41 AM

Liked this comment (from BBC review of papers)

According to the Telegraph, pro-Brexit MPs have expressed anger that Leave-supporting members of the Cabinet didn't take a greater stand against the proposals - including resigning.

One senior MP is quoted as saying: "Brexiteer ministers have put their careers before their country. They are traitors to the nation." 


More traitors to the nation, eh? At this rate it is going to be quicker to say who isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 04:01 AM

David,
There is not, and never has been, any reason for the UK government to treat immigrants from the rest of the world differently from EU immigrants.

Yes there is. EU migrants can not be refused, so all control has to fall on non-EU people.

Bwm, there are rich and poor on both sides, but big business want Remain to keep their gravy train running.
If you could argue your case you would not have to resort to name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:00 AM

For all the wrong reasons, just for once I agree with Boris when he says that Theresa May's Chequers brexit "plans" are akin to polishing a turd.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:03 AM

I almost felt like vomiting after listening to that condescending git Gove on the Andrew Marr show - who does it think he is if he thinks that he has the right to dictate to the people of the UK who they can live with and who can work for them?????? Can I have the right to deny leavers the right to live with their UK partners???

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:17 AM

One of my sons is married to an Italian, and the other to a Mauritian, so I have some sort of involvement in the difference between the two. (In fact, she and three relatives who are visiting the UK will be here in about an hour.)

The costs of being a legal immigrant from outside the EU are several thousands of pounds per year. I do not think it likely the EU will accept that readily for their citizens. So it seems inevitable that there will be continuing differences between the two.

There is also an argument to be made that one of the drivers of illegal immigration is the high cost of being a legal immigrant.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:18 AM

I see an election racing towards us!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:19 AM

For clarity, it is the Mauritian relatives who will be visiting us shortly)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:39 AM

I don't have the energy to organise another local snap election campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:56 AM

Employing my partner for 7 hours per week as my PA, taking calls when at home, typing up my invoices, and carrying out market research is hardly a big business gravy train is it?

Also what are the chances that domestically grown produce to EU standards would be largely bound for export, while domestic consumers end up with low quality adulterated foods, particularly those who cannot afford premium prices? - parallels with 1845?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 06:19 AM

parallels with 1845?
First students admitted to the Royal Agricultural College, Cirencester, the first agricultural college in the English-speaking world.

Peel tenders his resignation as Prime Minister as unable to persuade his Cabinet to repeal the Corn Laws.

First national general domestic poultry show in the U.K. held at London Zoo

If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack. Winston Churchill

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 08:41 AM

David,
It is just their policy, and specifically Theresa May's policy, to do so.

Since Gordon Brown's time, all 3 major parties have been committed to reduce immigration. It is dishonest to claim it is only the Tories.

EU immigration can not be reduced so the whole burden falls on non-European people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 09:00 AM

"Peel tenders his resignation as Prime Minister "
A crying shame - when his successor came into power he began to dismantle all the famine relief that he predecessor had put into place for the Irish people
The world might have been a better place
Sort of "If you have a pint to make, starve the ****** to death
John Russell

"I see an election racing towards us!"
Yet another exercise in "polishing a turd" to borrow a phrase from Boris the Brain-dead
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 10:06 AM


I see an election racing towards us!

Really? For the Tories, the position has been the same for a while:

(i) the margins are too low to be confident they would beat Corbyn (and after the last short notice election that confidence does not come easy)
(ii) while they might find an agreed candidate for one view, they lack a unity candidate
(iii) a change of leader does not require a new election.
(iv) leaving everything else aside, an election mid negotiation is problematic

A new election is possible, naturally. But who will risk it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 10:41 AM

The targets (which were never met) were Tory targets. Yvette Cooper has recommended scrapping that target.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 11:24 AM

The Tories had (unmet) targets, but all parties were committed to reducing immigration so all would have had to concentrate on non-Europeans because EU migration can not be controlled until we leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 07:46 PM

So David Davis has walked, and he won't be the first. Be very afraid, Theresa. Seems that your turd will remain unpolished.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 02:29 AM

Resigned from a job he was totally useless at, hence we are where we are. Next to go should be Disgraced Former Defence Secretary Liam Fox, who for two years has held a job with no purpose and no point, and managed even to stuff that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 02:36 AM


So David Davis has walked, and he won't be the first

I am moderately sure Nigel's instinctive response to this will to say you meant "he won't be the last". Very likely, that will be the extent of a reaction from Nigel.



This resignationj certainly makes the 1922 committee meeting harder. If May does what David Davis recommends and appoints someone who is "an enthusiastic supporter" of the Chequers agreement, it will not soothe the angry Brexiteers in the slightest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 03:06 AM

Non-EU immigration alone exceed net immigration targets. If the government really wants to control immigration, all it has to do id repay everything that Britain pillaged from the its empire, at present day value - plus interest

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 04:42 AM

"all it has to do id repay everything that Britain pillaged from the its empire, at present day value - plus interest"
Are you going to claim the Danegeld back as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 04:51 AM

So David Davis has walked, and he won't be the first

I am moderately sure Nigel's instinctive response to this will to say you meant "he won't be the last". Very likely, that will be the extent of a reaction from Nigel.

Yes, I would have commented if I'd seen it sooner.
If Theresa May's proposals get put to the EU, and accepted, I can now see a benefit to Gina Miller's court case. Only now it could be the Brexit supporters who decide to vote against implementation on the current terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 05:10 AM

Everyone mikes masitikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 10:07 AM

Boris has gone.
He definitely will not be the first.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 10:43 AM

Sadly although Johnson has resigned I do not think we have seen the last of him. A thoroughly nasty narcistic racist oaf.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 10:52 AM

It was late and I was almost asleep! Still, Boris has gone, and he won't be the second. Or fourth. I can see him not being the last. Anyway, the good Lord sayeth that the last shall be first and the first shall be last, or summat like that. I predict a leadership challenge very soon. And Boris won't win. Actually, I hope he does. No I don't. Do I? No!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 11:45 AM

Don't celebrate yet, Steve. The Big-Mouth Blond BrexShitter Buffoon is infinitely more dangerous out of the Cabinet than he was within it. A thoroughly evil, avaricious, power-hungry, racist piece of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 12:00 PM

As LBJ said of Hoover, better to have him inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in...?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 12:13 PM

Love the wonderful grasp people, have stating that Johnson will not be the first when he was obviously the second.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 12:46 PM

No he was the third, there was some nonentity (Baker?) yesterday.

Noticable how they have all delayed their resignations to make sure they got the ministerial car home first.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 01:22 PM

If Theresa May's proposals get put to the EU, and accepted, I can now see a benefit to Gina Miller's court case. Only now it could be the Brexit supporters who decide to vote against implementation on the current terms.

The Millar case was never about Brexit as such, it was about the relationship between the authority of government and Parliament. So it matters not a jot to me who sees that being to their benefit: getting the relationship right is what is important.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 01:33 PM

There is also clearly no majority of brexit supporters in Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 02:50 PM

would anyone care to speculate what are the basics of the government's plan for brexit? what are the chances of them getting this plan accepted by the conservative party? by parliament? or by the EU? what percentage of the electorate understand all this?
what percentage of the tory mps understand all this?
i reckon about 0% but to be honest i have stopped caring - the whole thing is completely ridiculous.
brexiteers - tell me i'm wrong and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 03:33 PM

Not a chance, Peter. They will not even tell you what the benefits may be. We have been trying to get some positivity for over 5000 posts and all we get is "weer gettin owr cuntry back" or "it will all work out for the best".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 03:41 PM

Davis - Johnson - who next!!!
The rats are all deserting the sinking turd-polishing factory
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 03:55 PM

The bad news is that, as it all goes tits-up for the Praying Mantis and The BrexShit Bunch, the whole country is in danger of being damaged by their incompetence and in-fighting.

The good news is that the dozy, feeble-minded clowns who voted Leave, who continue to defend the indefensible, and who will no doubt be telling us it's the best-polished turd ever, will be just as hurt by the consequences of their stupidity as those of us who had the good sense to vote Remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 04:44 PM

Bwwaaaaaaha-ha-ha-haaaaahh!!

Just heard a female minister has resigned now - any idea who? Hopefully it's the witch McVey...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 04:46 PM

And Hunt is the new Foreign Secretary. She's scraping the bottom of the barrel now...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 05:09 PM

True David, my mistake, I was thinking only of Cabinet Ministers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 05:58 PM

A thoroughly nasty narcistic racist oaf.

Corbyn?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 06:11 PM

I know you are not very intelligent Bobad, but if you care to read my post again you will find I mention Johnson by name.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 06:38 PM

Ignore him/her, Raggytash. Hoops.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 02:02 AM

Aaaaahh, the female minister's resignation appears to have been a bit of wishful thinking on some FB-user's part. Never mind, there's still time....

And the delightful Dominic Raab is now the BrexShit Supremo. How very appropriate - this is the same Dominic Raab who has expressed the belief that, amongst other workplace rights earned over many years, and 'forced on us' by an EU 'telling us what to do', sick-pay, paid holidays, rest days, the minimum wage, and the maximum enforceable 48-hour working week, should be abandoned.

Still, I'm sure Swivel-Hips, Teribus, Boob-ad, and other sundry Union-Jack-Boxers-Wearers will enjoy telling us why it's a great thing, and a positive result of 'taking are cuntry back'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 02:07 AM

Ha! Mrs. Backwoodsperson just referred to our esteemed and revered new BrexShit Supremo as 'Demonic Raab'! Go girl! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 02:17 AM

Dominic Raab who has expressed the belief that, amongst other workplace rights earned over many years, and 'forced on us' by an EU 'telling us what to do', sick-pay, paid holidays, rest days, the minimum wage, and the maximum enforceable 48-hour working week, should be abandoned.

I do wonder if she remembered that before appointing him. Seen as a simple move, she wanted to put a strong Brexiteer in place to try to keep as many Leave supporting MPs on side as possible, to give the message that we will not just give in to EU demands, as some claim.

But that is a particularly inconvenient bit of baggage he comes with. Talking about abstractions like GDP and trade agreements and the rest are rather less impactful for most people than our own holiday entitlement, and working hours, and sick pay. Given one of her own more famous lines is about the need to stop the Tories being seen as the nasty party, this appointment is quite a target. If it isn't an attack in Parliament, it will feature heavily in the next election literature - which I still think is some way off, even with the musical chairs session.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 04:06 AM

I think the appointment of Demonic Raab and Hunt to their new posts shows just how much wood The Praying Mantis is scraping from the bottom of the barrel.

"Another fine mess the BrexShit-Bumpkins have gotten us into, Stanley!"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 04:13 AM

David,
There is also clearly no majority of brexit supporters in Parliament.

….and never has been. They are the establishment ruling elite.
If they continue to subvert the expressed will of the people a populist party is likely to emerge again and threaten their position as UKIP did.

Dave,
They will not even tell you what the benefits may be.

They have told you. It was all laid out in the Leave campaign. Nothing has changed.

It merged in yesterday's questions that Corbyn called for article 50 to be triggered immediately after the referendum result came in. Just like Cameron did before.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 04:15 AM

Emerged!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 07:26 AM

Bet they'd do a better job than May and her bunch of Muppets...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 07:26 AM

At least when Hunt stuffs up his latest department, it won't matter so much as it did for education and health. The UK's international relationship are in comparison unimportant.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 08:07 AM

Time for the highly esteemed Mr Farage to lead us to the promised land!
Remainiacs get used to the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 09:54 AM

Jeremy Corbyn 2016,
"He said the result of the poll means the exit clause – Article 50, which would give a two year period for Britain to leave – must be observed as soon as possible in an interview with the BBC.
“The British people have made their decision. We must respect that result and Article 50 has to be invoked now so that we negotiate an exit from European Union.
“Obviously there has to be strategy but the whole point of the referendum was that the public would be asked their opinion. They’ve given their opinion. It is up for parliament to now act on that opinion. "
https://labourlist.org/2016/06/corbyn-article-50-has-to-be-invoked-now/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 10:08 AM

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 01:34 PM

"We might have been better situated, as we wouldn't have had a High court case about whether to issue Article 50. If it had been done immediately it would be fait accompli. This would possibly also have reduced just how much influence the Lords would have over the process."

Sure. And why not organise a military coup while you're at it.




Unusual criticism of Corbyn Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 11:16 AM

"Time for the highly esteemed Mr Farage to lead us to the promised land!
Remainiacs get used to the idea."

Well, for once I'm in complete agreement with you, Teribus. Absolute, 100% agreement.

In fact, I'll go further - on the morning after the Referendum, as soon as the result was declared, nstead of allowing them to shit their boxers and run for the hills, Camermoron should have appointed Haddock-Face, Bozo The Blond Bullingdon Buffoon, and The Little Lying Scottish Viper to be personally and jointly responsible for carrying through the entire BrexShit process...the formulation of a proper, workable policy plan, the negotiations with the EU team, the presentation of the deal to parliament, the whole lot.

With their slogans, sound-bites, hideous red buses, filthy racism and xenophobia, and disgusting bare-faced lies, they wrought the entire lunatic debacle of BrexShit on the large majority of the British population who did not vote to leave the EU, and they should be made to shoulder the full responsibility for, and consequences of, their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM

isn't it wonderful to know we have a cohesive, close knit and united party taking us forward into Brexit ..............

Two vice chairmen of the conservatives have just resigned their posts

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 12:18 PM

Well Keith, Parliament ought to be the elite, as they are supposed to represent us and should really be able to make better judgements than we can. Sadly, I have my doubts.

Being elite is not a negative attribute.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 01:46 PM

I agree David, but that is just how they see themselves.
I prefer "the ruling class."
Quentin Letts today, "A leader with no party: it is the fate of every ruler since Rome who has tried to ignore the plebs."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 04:48 PM

does the tory party have 10 chairpeople? why? what the feckin feck - really this whole thing is a complete mess. really. it is, isn't it? admit it, you brexiteers, this is just ridiculous. we are embarrassing ourselves as a nation and soon we will be welcoming donald trump. where is our pride as a nation?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 12:52 AM

Courtesy of the New York Times - Boris Johnson, the man who ruined Britain

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 03:18 AM

"highly esteemed Mr Farage'
SECRET TRAINING EXERCISES FOR TAKING CONTROL OF BRITAIN
INDOCTRINATION CLASSES
UKIP UNITY
BRAVE NEW WORLD

Yup, something is going on - be afraid, be very afraid !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 03:19 AM

Very perceptive article, Robomatic. Coupled with the fact that only yesterday Trump claimed Johnson's friendship I think it tells us all me need to know about this megalomaniac.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 03:38 AM

With all the recent Tory party resignations it would be expected the opposition party would be making hay and grabbing headlines everywhere. But the only newsworthy action of the highly ineffectual Corbyn is to provoke fury by appointing an MP previously suspended over anti-Semitic slurs to his frontbench. The man is a continuous trainwreck!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 04:10 AM

Both parties are split over EU. They would both struggle to implement brexit when a majority of them oppose it.
Having said that, if Corbyn had been listened to we would have invoked article 50 two years ago and be out now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 04:25 AM

We need a government of national unity which will keep us in the EU. There is a majority in parliament for this, and they should just do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 04:36 AM

From Robo's NYT piece.
"Britain is in this mess principally because the Brexiteers — led largely by Mr. Johnson — sold the country a series of lies in the lead up to the June 2016 referendum on leaving the European Union. They did so because neither Mr. Johnson nor his fellow leader of the Leave campaign, Michael Gove, intended, wanted or expected to win."

It appeared in NYT but is just a Brit Left Wing Remain journalist's biased views.
The quote above contains the old lie that lies won the referendum, and makes the bizarre claim that the lies were told to prevent themselves winning!
So, just the usual Remain bollocks but appearing in NYT instead of Guardian (which Ms Russell also used to write for.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 04:43 AM

David,
We need a government of national unity which will keep us in the EU. There is a majority in parliament for this, and they should just do it.

That was the position before UKIP. All the parties were Remain and would never consider a referendum.
It would happen again. A populist party would arise and threaten to seize power at the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 04:57 AM

One slight correction:
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 04:43 AM

That was the position before UKIP. All the parties were Remain and would never consider a referendum.
It would happen again. A populist party would arise and threaten to seize power at the next election.

I don't believe it would be a 'threat' (negative) but a 'promise' (positive). UKIP could make a comeback promising to implement what the majority of the voting public voted for.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 05:14 AM

Anyone who is thinking of threatening us with a UKIP comeback is truly living in cloud cuckoo land.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 05:16 AM

It is not an edifying sight to see troughing MP's deliberately defying the electorate. The next election could prove interesting!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 05:25 AM

UKIP were never anywhere near threatening to take power. They were threatening to take enough votes away from the tories that Labour might take power. The Tories put the interests of the Tory party above those of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 05:42 AM

The Tories put the interests of the Tory party above those of the country.

Unlike labour the Tories followed thru with the promise of a referendum. This demonstrates clearly that the Tories can be half trusted yet labour not at all!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 06:18 AM

From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 05:25 AM
UKIP were never anywhere near threatening to take power. They were threatening to take enough votes away from the tories that Labour might take power. The Tories put the interests of the Tory party above those of the country.

No, they were nowhere near taking power, and they were made inconsequential by the 'major' parties promising a referendum.
Now we know that neither of the parties were actually prepared to carry through Brexit if the country voted to leave, there are 17 million who might feel that the only way that a true Brexit would be achieved is by voting for the only party already committed to providing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 06:37 AM

We could have still had a referendum on the European constitution if you had offered to pay the full cost for it out of your own pocket, instead of what would have been a total waste of tax payers money due to it already having failed to be ratified in other EU states. I don't recall you doing so at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 06:41 AM

He must be away with the faeries!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 06:43 AM

No Nigel, there aren't. And in any case we can mobilise the young and active to counter them. Start by reducing the voting age to 16. Expose the sewer press for what they are. Cameron was far too nice about the referendum, he didn't call out the lies and the liars. The gloves must now come off.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 07:00 AM

And in any case we can mobilise the young and active to counter them. Start by reducing the voting age to 16.
Is that an admission that you think you'd lose under the current rules, so need to change the rules?
Any way, maybe some action would be taken to prevent students from voting in two constituencies, thus lowering the youth vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 07:18 AM

No, its a statement that denying the vote to 16-17 year olds, whose futures are the most at threat from brexit, was an absolute disgrace.

I have no problem with students voting in two constituencies, they need representation in their home and in their place of study.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 07:21 AM

Anyone who is thinking of threatening us with a UKIP comeback is truly living in cloud cuckoo land.

Ukip was being dismissed as a threat right up until it won the EU elections.
Ukip could come back if the electorate feel sufficiently betrayed by the ruling class, or another populist party might emerge.

UKIP were never anywhere near threatening to take power.

A sufficient threat to force all parties to promise a referendum which has resulted in their worst nightmare.

. They were threatening to take enough votes away from the tories that Labour might take power.

Labour was equally threatened, otherwise they would not have promised a referendum too.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 07:42 AM

No, its a statement that denying the vote to 16-17 year olds, whose futures are the most at threat from brexit, was an absolute disgrace.

I have no problem with students voting in two constituencies, they need representation in their home and in their place of study.

Why are the futures of 16-17 year olds most at risk? Just because they have longer futures than the earlier generation?
By this argument, at what age do you set the lower limit for voting? Why 16 rather than 12? (or 6?)

As for allowing students to vote twice, why not the same for workers, home and workplace? Or commercial travellers in every constituency they visit?
Your idea of democracy is sadly lacking in any level of coherence, your only suggestions are intended to skew (or screw) the whole process.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 07:44 AM

I detect a few getting a bit twitchy about the outcome should an election be called under present rules. They are obviously not 100% confident of the outcome otherwise they would not be trying to redefine electorate qualifications. And the idea of "Kevins" being able to vote for home and away is a risible piece of attempted socialist social engineering. Dream on boys, it will never happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 08:20 AM

David,
Guardian,
"Contrary to the complacency among Labour’s campaign chiefs, until the last year – when Ukip was taking four or five Tory voters for every one Labour voter – in 2015 the Ukip share of the vote was higher in Labour-held seats than in Conservative-held ones."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/23/labour-win-working-class-voters-ukip

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 08:24 AM

kevin for our American cousins!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 08:25 AM

Unfortunately Iains, it appears it does happen: Guardian

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 08:44 AM

Nigel. As a plethora of ID is required to perform such simple actions as opening a bank account, I see no reason why the same details should not be required to be scanned at a polling booth. A mandatory £5000 fine for double appearances would soon dampen the ardour for cheating.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 09:49 AM

Even allowing for inflation the cost of a national ID card would have been a lot less than the cost of HS2 (or of the Brexit proposed payment to the EU).
We're going to need one someday, and there are problems it would solve now. When will the government bite the bullet and get on with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 10:00 AM

Nigel we are there already in all but name.
For example apply online for a driving license and the following is requested: Registration   
    Your driver record
    Security details
    National Insurance number
    UK passport number

and at the end you get a government gateway number for being a good little citizen.
That kind of crept in by the back door. ID card by any other name I would say.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 10:17 AM

But those are not hard & fast requirements.
not everyone applying for a driving license will hold a passport. That doesn't stop them getting the license.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 10:23 AM

ID cards are a big subject in their own right, with the biggest *technical*,questions being what information they contain. For example a government gateway number does not show anything like a photo so it needs to be used as a key into a database which then raises the question who can access the database. Alternatively an ID does contain, for example, a photo so it is a "standalone" system and forgery becomes a problem.


All of which is interesting but of minimal relevance to life Post-Brexit. I hear few comments from leave supporters of the to and fro -ing of the past few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 10:31 AM

Highly relevant:
Corbyn's clots to the fore!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/11/labour-bought-data-on-more-than-1m-mums-and-their-children-emmas-diary

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 10:37 AM

I hear few comments from leave supporters of the to and fro -ing of the past few days.

We do not like it either. It follows from Tories having a Remainer for a leader. The Brexit project is in danger, but it can only be a temporary set back now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 11:05 AM

Especially now that Trump is arriving, I do think we should preserve the two-sides-of-the-pond difference in the ways we apply "licence" and license." Whaddya think, Nigel? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 11:13 AM

Oh Dear, reduced to drawing attention to spelling. The remainiacs obviously have no   sensible arguments to support their position.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 03:08 PM

The Tory heartlands are not amused! A special report from everybody's reliable news source Guido Fawkes.


https://order-order.com/2018/07/11/telegraph-letters-editor-readers-havent-angry-since-expenses-scandal/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 03:56 PM

Iains, do you really have to resort to a right wing blogger?

Really?

If you linked to a source that has some credence it may help your argument.

Given the disruptions within the conservative party since the weekend do you actually have any good news to tell us?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 09:00 PM

"I've said it before and I'll say it again, Democracy just doesn't work!"

(I can't resist a good Simpsons quote in times of adversity.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 02:53 AM

And there, Keith, in the comments section of the Telegraph, is your Ruling Class. Your self-styled elite. Whilst our representatives in Parliament work to try to minimise the damage, not minimise it enough in my view but thats another argument, the Tufton-Buftons in the Telegraph are outraged.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:26 AM

David, if you are referring to the response to Mrs May's 'proclamation' on Friday it is not a case of "our representatives in Parliament work to try to minimise the damage" but of parliament trying to reverse the vote by the British people to leave the EU.
The vote was clear. Mrs May's latest white flag paper wipes out the 'red lines' and puts forward a UK position which would not really be Brexit. Although she had already shown it to Mrs Merkel (before 'agreeing' it with the cabinet) I have no doubt that the likes of Michel Barnier will look on it as a starting point, and try to whittle it down further.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:53 AM

If you linked to a source that has some credence it may help your argument.

Do I have to teach you how to read Raggy? Is the Telegraph not a mainstream newspaper?(A profitable one unlike the gruniard)

Here is the same data from another source: It is the content that is the issue, not the provider.
I seem to have to repeat this argument constantly. Remainiacs must be very simple folk. The most simple of concepts escapes them!

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/telegraph-treason-article-theresa-may/
and from the hotbed of false news lo and behold - the same story!

https://www.rt.com/uk/432676-telegraph-theresa-may-treason/

This suggests the rank and file see the PM as betraying the electorate.

As they say in the vernacular, " her ass is grass!"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM

Isn't it great when you watch right wing nutters falling out?
Bring it on
Trump is now getting ready to sell Britain down the Swanee and climb into bed with Putin 'The Universal Soldier'
So much fro Britain "standing on her own feet"
His latest outburst against Nato really had dragged him out of his 'world takeover closet - where is James Bond when you need him
THis is what Ians and hiis ilk are supporting - fuck the rest of the world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 04:36 AM

Isn't it great when you watch right wing nutters falling out?
Bring it on
Trump is now getting ready to sell Britain down the Swanee and climb into bed with Putin 'The Universal Soldier'

You may not have noticed, but he seems to have been even harsher to Germany/EU, so if this relates to the Brexit thread, our getting out of EU puts us in a better position. (At least we won't be in his condemnation of Europe)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 04:55 AM

The referendum was a vote to remain or leave the EU. Many have the opinion that what is on offer by the PM is in essence "membership of the EU but with no vote" in other words an emasculated membership.
The valiant Brexiteers rightly see this as a sellout, nothing to do with Nat or Trump or Putin. The simple remainiacs seem to confuse all these discrete issues as being part and parcel of the same thing.

Discussing it with them is rather like discussing the finer points of astrophysics with my pet guppy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:15 AM

"The referendum was a vote to remain or leave the EU."

Correct. That and only that was what I voted on. Nothing else. The details are still down to the politicians, who have to find practical solutions. There was no mention of customs unions, single markets or Irish borders on my ballot paper. That's for our leaders to thrash out. We elect them to do that kind of dirty work. Just as we elect them to make big decisions such as whether or not we should be in the EU. Unfortunately, the cowardly Cameron, running scared of UKIP and his own backwoodsmen, handed that one down to an ignorant electorate. Good job there WAS no mention of a customs union or single market on the ballot paper. Most of those voting wouldn't have had a bloody clue what they were.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:36 AM

There was no mention of customs unions, single markets or Irish borders on my ballot paper.
No, but they were mentioned in the debates. (except possibly the Irish border)
The customs union and single market are both EU constructs. leaving the EU would automatically mean leaving those.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:43 AM

"Most of those voting wouldn't have had a bloody clue what they were."

Perhaps you would like an IQ test pass as a vital step to enfranchisement, or perhaps a PhD in geopolitics.



and politicians cannot be trusted!

Yet you would leave all the decision making to them?
No surprise the opposition is such a mess then, if all share your views.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:54 AM

David,
the Tufton-Buftons in the Telegraph are outraged.

No. They are just Telegraph readers. The core Tory vote. Not any kind of elite or ruling class.
No Tory government can afford to alienate them.

Steve,
. There was no mention of customs unions, single markets or Irish borders on my ballot paper.

Of course not on the ballot paper, but it was made explicit in the campaigns that voting leave would take us out of both.
The Irish border is an invented issue. No change is needed.

. Good job there WAS no mention of a customs union or single market on the ballot paper. Most of those voting wouldn't have had a bloody clue what they were.

Only if they had ignored both campaigns!

the cowardly Cameron, running scared of UKIP and his own backwoodsmen, handed that one down to an ignorant electorate.

With the full support of both Labour and Lib Dems.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 07:10 AM

"Unfortunately, the cowardly Cameron, running scared of UKIP and his own backwoodsmen, handed that one down to an ignorant electorate."

Keep my family out of it please. Our self-respect, and sense of decency and fair play, wouldn't allow any of us to align ourselves with the dreadful Tories or the hideous UKIP fruitcakes. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 09:02 AM

"The Irish border is an invented issue. No change is needed."

So you agree that if there will continue to be an ooen Border between NI and ROI, there will also be open borders between the rest of the UK and the EU??? If not, then please reconcile this and/or explain why leavers are not hypocrites and explain why one part of the UK that the government depends upon its DUP Mps to cling on to power are a superior species to the rest of us

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 09:02 AM

Of course the core Tory vote are the ruling class. I hesitate to use the term elite because that would imply merit, when they have none.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 09:26 AM

So you agree that if there will continue to be an ooen Border between NI and ROI, there will also be open borders between the rest of the UK and the EU???
This comment works on the supposition that there are currently open borders between UK and the rest of EU. There are not. There is a bloody great channel in between, and even those who drive under it, or fly over it, are met by customs stations. This is, in no way, analogous to the situation in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 11:13 AM

The English channel and customs controls do not interfere with the right of EU/UK nationals to move freely across the border. If hard borders are not instigated on the NI/ROI border, then there is no physical barrier to prevent free movement.

Therefore, to instigate border restrictions impeding freedom of movement on mainland points of entry are discriminatory. And if a nasty DUP supporting piece of work is entitle to free movement to/from EU (aka ROI) then so is everyone else in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 11:19 AM

The English channel and customs controls do not interfere with the right of EU/UK nationals to move freely across the border. If hard borders are not instigated on the NI/ROI border, then there is no physical barrier to prevent free movement.

Do you actually read, and think about, what you post.
There may be no physical border between NI/ROI, but we have a freedom of movement arrangement between us anyway. There are physical barriers between UK/(rest of)EU, and between ROI/(rest of)EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 12:32 PM

David,
Of course the core Tory vote are the ruling class.

Of course they are not. They are ordinary people with no special powers or privileges.

SPB,
If there is free trade then no border infrastructure is required.There are differences across the border already, and smuggling is a constant problem already.
If there is not free trade between UK and EU there is still no need for infrastructure. The volume of trade across that border is tiny. Most of it is from large businesses that can submit there trade for tarifs as they do already for duties. Much of the remaining trade can be classed as local and not requiring tariffs. Smuggling will be an issue as it already is. Any lost revenue will overwhelmingly be from UK.

A closed border is completely impossible anyway. It is 300 miles long with about 200 crossing points, mostly remote. It can not be closed so we just make it work as well as possible and the police will continue to chase the smugglers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 12:35 PM

The only area of free movement in the EU is within the Schengen area and even that has certain restrictions in places. The UK has never been a part of it and also if flying into the republic of Ireland passports are frequently checked.
Free movement is perhaps a misnomer. There is a world of difference between an entitlement to move within an area and a further entitlement to move without checking of any documents.
There would seem to be considerable confusion here. Is this because of little englanders posting, who have not been abroad?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 01:36 PM

"You may not have noticed, "
Oh I did Baccy - a frightening attempt at bulliding a new Axis

Did some mpron suggest that the Irish border issue was "invented"
How thickly Little English can you get!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 01:45 PM

Jim, instead of calling me names, point out the errors in my reasons given for saying it is an invented problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 05:48 PM

From a brief look at the news this evening it would seem that May's euro proposal is depp in the water with Rees Moog saying he would not vote for it.

It would seem the hardline Brexiteers are going to put a spoke in the wheels from the outset.

Good news available anywhere? Anyone?

(well almost anyone Johnson, Gove, Farage and their ilk need not bother to reply)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:03 PM

If you don't understand the border issues and its implications for both the Republic and the six counties - both of whom believe it to be a real issue, what't the point of pointing them out
Neither of them believe it is an "invented" issue
You don't want to know anything that doesn't suit your closed little Brit mind - hence my description
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:24 PM

That of course should have read "dead in the water"

Depp I believe is an actor!!

Hoops Jim and ever more hoops!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 08:19 PM

The Schengen area allows movement between member states without birder checks, the same way as we can move from London to Birmignham without passing through a visible border. That is a fact - I have travelled from Czech Republic to Poland, Austria, Germany with no border checks. My partners son regukarly drives between prague and Germany - ni visible border. With the Shanty crew we travelled freely from Dunkirk through Belgium, Netherlands and Germany, the only time our passports were checked were on the ferry crossings. This ws nothiong to do with freedom of movement, but confirmation of our identity and our right of freedom of movement. It is only racists who want to apply conditions about who has and hasn't the right to live/work in the Uk.
??

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 02:28 AM

So now the POTUS has interfered in the BrexShit debate by announcing, IIUHC, that the U.K. can wave goodbye to a trade agreement with the US if we go down The Praying Mantis's route of 'partial Brexit' that emerged from the Chequers bun-fight.

So...the message seems to be that it's 'out of the frying-pan and into the fire' - stop letting the EU 'tell us what to do' and start letting the US, led by a megalomaniac, xenophobic, racist sexual predator, tell us what to do.

Another fine mess you've gotten us into, BrexShitters.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 02:39 AM

I don't know why Rees Mogg thinks himself in the slightest bit important, his views command nothing like a majority in parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 02:44 AM

Trump thinks that Boris Johnson would make a great Prime Minister. Trump has a lot in common with Boris, he is a liar, an adulterer, he has used public money for his own vanity projects, and he has dragged the name of his country into the gutter. Not surprising that sewer rats should stick together.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 02:54 AM

I wonder where all the people are, including the arse-wipe media, that were railing against Obama when he suggested that Brexit would not be a wise move? How come they are not screaming and shouting about US interference in UK policy now?

Rhetorical questions BYW.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:16 AM

And, of course, it's the politics of the school playground - "If your their friend, you can't be my friend"!

Precisely the kind of childish bollocks one would expect from the Big Orange Man-Baby.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:30 AM

"The Schengen area allows movement between member states without birder checks, the same way as we can move from London to Birmignham without passing through a visible border. That is a fact

Oh no it is not! The facts below. As I have alluded to many times before.

http://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/8750/border-controls-in-europe-s-schengen-zone

Also certain countries have random road blocks as a matter of course.
From firsthand experience the Guardia Civil in Spain and An Garda Síochána in Ireland frequently set up random road blocks. In Ireland this can include other government departments to check ID and possession of PPS number. There may be a theoretical freedom of movement, but the reality is that border checks have been introduced,justified by fears of terrorism, and random internal checks occur in certain countries to endure that those stopped have a right to be there. And to stop the little fellow that likes to dispute everything I say about Ireland a link is supplied below to confirm what I have said.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-social-welfare-inspectors-and-revenue-officers-all-present-at-multioperation-road-ch

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:36 AM

I wonder where all the people are, including the arse-wipe media, that were railing against Obama when he suggested that Brexit would not be a wise move? How come they are not screaming and shouting about US interference in UK policy now?

It may be a rhetorical question, but that doesn't mean that there is no answer.

Obama's intervention was in support of what the government of the day wanted (some have even said it was specifically requested by someone within the government).
Trump's intervention is in support of what the people of the UK voted (by majority) for, and does not sit well with the intentions of the current government.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:41 AM

Nigel that is a very significant point you make. Thank you!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:57 AM

How come they are not screaming and shouting about US interference in UK policy now?

Because we are not engaged in an election campaign as we were when Obama tried to influence the outcome.
Obama said that they would put us at the back of the queue for a trade deal if we did not do what he said.
Trump has said we would be at the front of the queue but now points out that the white paper version of Brexit would make a trade deal impossible. We needed to know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:59 AM

And, of course, it's the politics of the school playground - "If your their friend, you can't be my friend"!

No, that would be a childish reaction. What he seems to be saying is that if UK retains its links to, and the restrictions imposed on trade by, the EU, then a new trade deal between UK/USA would not be feasible.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 04:08 AM

Obama. Severing connections with Europe would make a trade deal difficult.

Trump. Keeping connections with Europe would make a trade deal difficult.

One of these statements is the US interfering in UK politics.

The other is the US helping the UK electorate.

You couldn't make this stuff up...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 04:14 AM

Obama. Severing connections with Europe would make a trade deal difficult.

No. He said they would choose to keep us waiting, and his intervention was during an election campaign.

Trump. Keeping connections with Europe would make a trade deal difficult.

No. He has said a trade deal with us was wanted and welcome but it could not be done within the parameters of the white paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 04:30 AM

Just to remind everyone, Dave's original point was about the press reaction to a US president interfering in UK politics.

Not whether you agreed with what the President said.

It is also worth remembering the President's role is to further US interests. Forget any illusions about them being deeply concerned about UK interests independently of US interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 04:57 AM

It is also worth remembering the President's role is to further US interests. Forget any illusions about them being deeply concerned about UK interests independently of US interests.
So in the short time between two presidents the US' interests have changed from keeping us in the EU, to getting us to make a clean break?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:00 AM

So in the short time between two presidents the US' interests have changed from keeping us in the EU, to getting us to make a clean break?

While it may be chronologically short there is a massive gap between Obama and Trump. Yes, the interests have changed that much.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:03 AM

...and thank you for the reminder, DMcG. You would have thought it superfluous considering the timescale but it seems you were right to provide it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:03 AM

So in the short time between two presidents the US' interests have changed from keeping us in the EU, to getting us to make a clean break?

More accurately what the Presidents believe to be in the best US interests has changed. That's not surprising at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:05 AM

That is a gap between Obama & Trump. I was responding to the claim that each was defending the US' interests. Surely those remain the same, although the two presidents may not have the same view of them. So my question is still valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:14 AM

"What he seems to be saying is that if UK retains its links to, and the restrictions imposed on trade by, the EU, then a new trade deal between UK/USA would not be feasible."

Well I don't care. We do far more trade with the EU than we do, and will ever do, with the US, and it will ever be thus. And we won't have to lower our standards to align ourselves with the lower US standards in many regards. I'd really like someone to tell me, without using that hopeful and rather empty word "opportunities," how a patchy plethora of little trade deals all over the non-EU world, each one involving a tiny proportion of our overall trade, will ever be better than what we have now. And we'll still trade with the EU, but under far more disadvantageous conditions. Take your time now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:17 AM

I will elaborate, then, Nigel. Simplifying somewhat, both president's want the maximum US benefit from their trade deals. Obama's view was to deal with the biggest deals first, which puts the UK somewhat towards the back - not the absolute back of course, but fairly low priority compared to the other deals they were/are seeking.

Trump sees a bigger advantage in having the UK separate from the EU and desparate for a deal at almost any price.

Same objective, different strategies. And all about US interests, not UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:25 AM

Just to remind everyone, Dave's original point was about the press reaction to a US president interfering in UK politics.

Thanks for the reminder. The original (rhetorical) question was:
I wonder where all the people are, including the arse-wipe media, that were railing against Obama when he suggested that Brexit would not be a wise move? How come they are not screaming and shouting about US interference in UK policy now?
In answer to the question as posed, I would imagine the people and newspapers are roughly where they were then.

If you intended to ask why there was not the same outrage to the intervention, I believe I answered that already:
Obama's intervention was in support of what the government of the day wanted (some have even said it was specifically requested by someone within the government).
Trump's intervention is in support of what the people of the UK voted (by majority) for, and does not sit well with the intentions of the current government.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:26 AM

"So in the short time between two presidents the US' interests have changed from keeping us in the EU, to getting us to make a clean break?"
Apr 22, 2016 - Obama: UK would be 'back of queue' for trade talks if it left EU. Note this is before the referendum(June 23rd 2016) It could also be regarded as direct unwarranted interference in the british referendum by undue American influence, unlike all the false news reports of "reds in the bed"

By contrast Trump makes a pragmatic statement contrasting Trade had Brexit been as promised and trade as would be the reality with the brexit betrayal being proposed.

Note one president offered speculation before the referendum the other commented on the contrasting realities after the referendum.   

A totally different set of circumstances!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:47 AM

Obama said they would block a trade deal if we left.
As soon as he got in Trump said we will be at the front of the queue for one when we do leave.
That is in both nation's interest. What objection does anyone have?
None I am sure. We are all in agreement.

He now says that it can not be done if we are confined by EU rules as in the white paper. That alone is reason to bin it. Labour wants to bin it too so who here supports the white paper?
No-one. We are all in agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:28 AM

Let's get real. Trump doesn't care a tuppenny fart for what kind of trade deal we'll get with him. He's completely untrustworthy. Anyone who sees a brave new world of a non-EU UK having a spiffin' trade deal under ANY exit terms at all with Trump is (tick the answer*) A. living in cloud cuckoo land, B. living on another planet, C. away with the fairies, D. feeble-minded.






*The correct answer is all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:33 AM

Absolutely spot-on Steve.

Brexiteers please read, mark, learn and inwardly digest...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:53 AM

Welcome to the real Donald Trump. The schism between Obama and Trump is that Obama was dead wrong when he said Trump has no ideology. Where that ideology comes from is most likely Bannon and the writings of Hitler.
Trump is a tool of Vladimir Putin. Any other explanation is short sighted and is as small as Donald's hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 07:34 AM

We already have a very healthy trade surplus with US. Our US trade is second only to whole EU, and US trade is growing.

Our trade with EU is in deficit and is shrinking.

US will benefit from free trade with us. We will too. Win, win.

Does anyone here support the deal proposed by May?
No. We are all agreed on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 07:35 AM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:33 AM
Absolutely spot-on Steve.
Brexiteers please read, mark, learn and inwardly digest...

Suggesting we 'read, mark, learn an inwardly digest' something from Facebook suggests a complete inability to separate sources of facts from flights of fancy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:01 AM

Bit like posting that Guido Fawkes is a trusted source you mean? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:01 AM

Our imports from the EU are five times greater in monetary value than our imports from the US. Our exports to the EU are two and a half times greater. Comparisons which omit these statistics are not honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:11 AM

Would that be waffle or whimsy? Without supporting evidence it could be either. Even Guido supplies irrefutable links.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:13 AM

ONS website.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:18 AM

ONS

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:28 AM

From the mighty press of Guido and to the dismay of remainiacs!


Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by BOJO?
                                                            REES MOGG?
                                                    Anyone but MAY !!


https://order-order.com/2018/07/12/whips-ask-mps-to-withdraw-letters-as-no-10-fear-theyre-approaching-48/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:51 AM

"Suggesting we 'read, mark, learn an inwardly digest' something from Facebook suggests a complete inability to separate sources of facts from flights of fancy."

No, Nigs, it suggests that there are those whose opinions differ from yours - are you trying to stifle opinions which differ from your own? Aren't differing opinions the stuff of discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:55 AM

Just heard of Trump abusing May publicly
I wonder how the Little Brit Trumpites are going to put that particular square peg into its round hole
The bullying moron has now set his sights onBritish politics - prepare to be sick - very sick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 09:24 AM

No, Nigs, it suggests that there are those whose opinions differ from yours - are you trying to stifle opinions which differ from your own?
No, backwardsman, I am already aware that there are opinions contrary to my own. But to suggest I "read mark learn and inwardly digest them" when they are from such an unsupported source suggests you feel incapable of supporting your own views with facts. There are enough unsupported opinions on here, without trying to appeal to a 'higher authority' and thinking that Facebook is it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 09:42 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:55 AM
Just heard of Trump abusing May publicly

What did he say?
Did he insult her looks, or her posture?
Or did he comment on her policies?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 09:47 AM

So, are you saying that the opinions stated in the article are worthless per se! Or that they are worthless because they were stated on Facebook?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 09:54 AM

Neither.
They would be worthless as 'facts' because you are just quoting someone else's opinion.
If you wish to discuss matters in an adult fashion, why not try giving your own opinions, rather than linking to something as unreliable as Facebook.
And then suggesting we need to 'read mark learn and inwardly digest' those opinions suggests that you seem to consider them some kind of 'Holy writ'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 09:58 AM

Donald used his bored halting 5th grade voice as if reading a book report stolen from Wikipedia, to give left handed compliments to May like, May is a woman and is doing her best but Boris would be great.

He used the same tone describing the good people on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:07 AM

or what Donuel means to say:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/trumps-trying-to-save-brexit-by-provoking-a-deep-state-coup-against-may/5647452

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:10 AM

Lets look at the details of BWMs link.

One of Trump's favourite catchphrases when it comes to international trade is "America First", so any trade deal Trump does agree to will obviously benefit America and American businesses over Britain and British businesses.

Part fact, part opinion drawn from the fact but probably accurate.

Who actually wants our food and consumer standards trashed so the UK market can be opened up to sub-standard American food products like chlorinated chicken and hormone riddled beef (apart from rabidly right-wing Tory types)?

Well, does anyone want our food standards to be trashed? It is a question rather than an opinion.

One of the main Brextremist arguments is that Britain should quit the EU to pursue free trade deals across the world, but this free trade Brexit idea looks awfully stupid given that we're actually quitting the largest free trade zone on the planet in order to beg for a trade deal with by far the most protectionist US President in decades.

All factual.

The extreme-right and white-supremacist types who support Trump continually use the term "snowflake" to denigrate anyone who dares object to their abusive language and revolting policies (like Trump's child concentration camps), but now they're all crying like babies over a bloody protest balloon!

All factual apart from'crying like babies' line, which is exaggeration but I think we get the picture.

When it comes to bullies appeasement is a very poor idea, because once they see you caving in to their bullying behaviour to give them what they want, they're just going to use the same bully-boy tactics to demand more and more and more.

Opinion but based on sound psychology.

Appeasing extreme-right bullies on the international scene has already been tried.If you don't know what the photo is all about try searching "peace for our time".

Factual.

All in all a good summation. Mainly fact. Some sound opinion. Certainly as good as anything from Paul Staines.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:26 AM

Dave,
I particularly like your comment (and the original line you're commenting on):

When it comes to bullies appeasement is a very poor idea, because once they see you caving in to their bullying behaviour to give them what they want, they're just going to use the same bully-boy tactics to demand more and more and more.

Opinion but based on sound psychology.

Have you considered that this is also how the EU is treating the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:34 AM

It isn't. You want it to so that you can say it does. You've forgotten that it's the UK who's the troublemaker in all this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:41 AM

I don't want this to descend into "It isn't. 'Tis too" type of discussion, although schoolground argument types are more Steve Shaw's province than mine.

But this is exactly how the EU are acting. Insist on more and more concessions by UK without giving any themselves.

Of course, Steve may be able to show where EU have made concessions, but I very much doubt it. Just stating that "It isn't" doesn't really cut it!

Subject: RE: BS: Kudos to the Queen
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:49 AM

During Tea with the Queen;

Liz: Mr. President you are a master.
Don: Thank you.
Liz: Master Trump, you have been a very naughty boy.
Don: ~;^[

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:53 AM

No, not really Nigel. More of a concerned Mother trying to make her wayward son see sense ;-0

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 11:10 AM

Here's an opinion from a pro-Brexit Facebook page, Nigel - no verifiable 'facts', just the opinion of one man (whom I'm guessing you admire greatly), on a policy agreed at The Chequers meeting, and published via a Facebook Page.

Do your lofty standards apply to the opinion on this Facebook page, exactly the way you applied them to the opinion given by AAV via the same organ - that no credence can be given to opinions on Facebook?

https://www.facebook.com/794492093982367/posts/1733026410128926/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 11:23 AM

Refusing to give concessions is not bullying behaviour. As a matter of fact, the UK government hasn't really presented anything that the EU can give concessions on. You want to say that the EU is bullying us because that suits your rather insecure brexiteer agenda. When you can't present facts in support, demonisation is the next best thing. We know how it works, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 11:40 AM

Again, it's one man's opinion. I don't 'greatly admire' him, nor do I know why you believe that I should. Maybe you're too easily influenced.
I certainly wouldn't put forward his comments as something for each remainer to "read, mark, learn and inwardly digest" as you did for your earlier link.
Having an adult discussion means putting forward your own views, if necessary with the reasons behind them, not just quoting the opinions of a third party. They could do that for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM

Why should anyone not be permitted to put forward the opinions of third parties, if those people share those opinions? It's surely a given that someone who posts a third party's opinions does so precisely because they share those opinions - why are they any less valid just because someone else has published them in an on-line publication?

I'm perfectly happy for others to disagree with the fact-based opinions given in the article I linked to on the basis of their substance. But sneering at those opinions because of their means of publication, not because of their substance, really doesn't cut the mustard, does it?

So, instead of sneering at Facebook, tell us what doesn't hold water in the article, and why it's deficient.

And, FYI, trying to insult me by calling me Backwardsman (with or without the upper-case 'B') has no effect on me whatsoever - Richard Bridge and several others beat you to it by a number of years. It says more about them and you than it does about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:01 PM

" your rather insecure brexiteer agenda." More gormless twaddle.


The brexit agenda is very simple to understand for all but remainiacs.
The agenda is to leave the EU. If the EU have no serious wish to negotiate the exit will be hard. We have no need for a professional scientist/ ex teacher/union activist to peddle his quack analysis of the mental state of we brexiteers. Is insecurity supposed to add a certain gravitas to your whimsical musings? It seems to pop up as a frequent adjective amongst your innumerable musings. here are a few more words to consider to pad out your waffling:goorn

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:06 PM

And, FYI, trying to insult me by calling me Backwardsman (with or without the upper-case 'B') has no effect on me whatsoever - Richard Bridge and several others beat you to it by a number of years. It says more about them and you than it does about me.
That was merely a response to your inability (shown in the post where I used the name) to use my proper name.
"Nigel" is not that difficult. If you choose to use 'Nigs' instead you should expect a response. Don't dish it out if you can't take it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:08 PM

To illustrate:

No, Nigs, it suggests that there are those whose opinions differ from yours - are you trying to stifle opinions which differ from your own?
No, backwardsman, I am already aware that there are opinions contrary to my own. But to suggest I "read mark learn and inwardly digest them" when they are from such an unsupported source suggests you feel incapable of supporting your own views with facts. There are enough unsupported opinions on here, without trying to appeal to a 'higher authority' and thinking that Facebook is it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:32 PM

"Nigel" is not that difficult. If you choose to use 'Nigs' instead you should expect a response. Don't dish it out if you can't take it!"

I repeat, your attempt to insult me has no effect whatsoever, I can 'take it' - sticks and stones etc.

Might not be the case in your stamping ground, but where I'm from 'Nigs' is a friendly shortening of 'Nigel' just as, for instance, 'Terry" is the shortened, friendly version of Terence, or Steve is a friendly shortened version of Steven. I have friends called Nigel, everyone calls them Nigs. Just a standard thing, nobody gets their frillies wedged.

But, if you prefer the Sunday-name, I'll stick with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:33 PM

Bit like posting that Guido Fawkes is a trusted source you mean?

What has he been wrong about Dave?

Our imports from the EU are five times greater in monetary value than our imports from the US.

That is bad trade then Steve.

Our exports to the EU are two and a half times greater.

That reflects our big deficit with EU and big surplus with US, and US trade is growing while our EU trade is shrinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:34 PM

And, as has already been pointed out to you quite firmly, most of the opinions in that article are fact-based. Tell us why you think they aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:43 PM

You really don't understand trade, do you Keith. We get lots of nice stuff from the EU, not so much from the USA. The UK money supply is not fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:45 PM

And now Trump says, according to the BBC website:

"A trade deal between the US and UK "will absolutely be possible", Donald Trump has said, hours after he told the Sun Theresa May's Brexit plan could kill an agreement.
...
He said: "I read reports where that won't be possible, but I believe after speaking with the prime minister's people and representatives and trade experts it will absolutely be possible".

So he thinks a deal is possible under the terms of the white paper.

Of course, that is only now. What he will think in a few hours time is anyone's guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 04:42 PM

hi your maj..
hello mr trump, i understand you are here to learn what you can gain from our country. our country of which we are of course very proud.
well... not really - i'm here to make amurca and me even greater and to tell you guys how to behave

yes, of course, well we thought so and to help you to do just that here are some very valued friends of ours - (you may already know ) -sir billy, our national treasure and my best friend jo brand and top tennis player andy murray.

hey... let me tell you ....i'm....

yes. mr trump that's all very well but billy has someone you would maybe like to meet.
hello you, crazy old orange man, i know this old guy who used to knw your maw. old ben, lives in a beach hut on the northern coast. he's keen to meet you.... he knows all about the stars and that and really what's important.
do i have to go?
yes, you do, you fanny, you may learn something....about life,burt lancaster, the importance of oil, the universe and your mum when she was young......
ok

tale that stupit tie aff

sorry that helicopter was a wee bit bumpy eh......but only a minor wee stroke - at the aberdeen royal infirmary we do several of these days every day. you 'll be here for a few days

i can afford it, nurse...? nurse... sorry i can't read, he slurred

the name's brand. nurse jo brand

no need - we paid for you already.could get expensive otherwise. here, answer me these questions

who's the PM?

boris johnson?

how many people are declared bankrupt by their inability to pay medical bills in the UK? germany? france? canada? Japan? etc?
hell,i don't know that shit...
it's 0,0, 0, 0, 0, etc sorry, how many people are bankrupted in your country?
hell, i don't know ...
643, 000
(well,i think that's what my wife told me this am -pete)

andy murray from dunblane is here to talk to you about guns and the school children in your country , mr trump.....mr trump? you ok?

obviously i'm just being a bit daft here but ffs surely our relationship with any country is a 2 way street. or in this case a one way street - we have nothing at all to learn from america and certainly not from donald trump. we should be sitting him down somewhere very quiet and getting people (like carolyn lucas eg) to give him a good talking to.

do you want to be the best president ever? it's peace, it's gun control it's a comprehensive health care system, tackling climate change and meeting peter tatchell. he's only an orangeman- even gerry adams could talk good sense into him. he may as well get something positive out of his visit. i don't awnt him down my local though

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:33 PM

An interesting fact: The moment Trump met the Queen the special prosecutor back in Washington announced 12 indictments of Russians who hacked US election process.

This is one of three 'shoes' to drop by the Justice Dept.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:34 PM

Have a butchers at Steve Bell's Guardian cartoon today (Friday, that is), Pete. It's Donald and Melania having tea with the Queen, Phil the Greek and a couple of corgis. You could cut the atmosphere with a knife...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 01:40 AM

gary younge in the guardian - 'Neither Johnson nor Davis -nor any of the Brexiteers- have a plan that could actually work. Nothing that they promised was real, or true, or possible. Whether we remain or leave the EU, our sovereignty was always contingent on our presence within the global neoliberal system which operates according to the golden rule: those who have the gold make the rules. Both rhetorically and strategically, the Brexiteers have trapped themselves in the role of permanent defiance and disappointment. The world is not what they want it to be. In the absence of any strategy for bending it to their will, they would rather rail at it.

Yet however ridiculous they may now seem, however vain and pompous, they remain dangerous. For, as counterintuitive as it may appear, there is potency in this powerlessness. With sufficient encouragment the rage it creates, the frustration it engenders, the nostalgia it spawns - can have a disruptive effect on politics. We know this because we have seen it happen elsewhere with disastrous consequences. We know this because these were the forces that made possible the president with no moral authority, and the prime minister with no authority whatsoever.'

Discuss

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 02:30 AM

Pete, someone will be along shortly to tell you those are 'only opinions' with 'no basis in fact'.

None are so blind as those who will not see.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 03:31 AM

"What did he say?
Did he insult her looks, or her posture?
Or did he comment on her policies?"
Whatever he said - he crawled away from it and apologised for saying it
A world first Nigel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 04:03 AM

Incidentally Nigel
What Trump did do was to promote the 'leadership qualities' of a serious contender to The British Prime Minister - an interference in British politics comparable to the Russians planting dangerous chemicals in Salisbury - only on a national scale
I think he likes Brexit too
The two go together like a horse and carriage
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 04:37 AM

Of course he likes Brexit. He would love it if the EU fell apart altogether. Together we are strong enough to stand up to his economic aggression. Divided we have no chance of doing so.

In my opinion (Just in case anyone does not understand that :-) )

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 05:05 AM

gary younge in the guardian - 'Neither Johnson nor Davis -nor any of the Brexiteers- have a plan that could actually work.


Pete, someone will be along shortly to tell you those are 'only opinions' with 'no basis in fact'.

Yes. We already trade with the rest of the world under WTO regulations, and that works perfectly well. In fact it is thriving while our EU trade dwindles and is hugely in deficit anyway.
Anything beyond WTO is an added bonus.

David,
You really don't understand trade, do you Keith.

Easy accusation to make, but not to justify.
Quote something I got wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 05:37 AM

As Dominic Raab is now Brexit Secretary, it seems likely that "Britannia Unchained" represents his view of what post-Brexit life should look like. Has anyone here actually read it? I don't feel inclined to pay £13.75 for the Kindle edition, but have read the part you can see though the 'Look inside' options.

Has anyone here read it in its entirety? Or more of it than I could see?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 05:43 AM

Keith, in your post of 13th July, 12:33pm, you say:

"Our imports from the EU are five times greater in monetary value than our imports from the US.

That is bad trade then Steve."

No its not bad trade, because the imports are things we need and consumers want. Especially in a country with its own currency, a trade deficit is not bad, because it means that we get lots of nice things in exchange for currency which we can just create. And the reason that our imports from the EU are five times greater than those from the US is that the goods produced by the EU are more desirable. Tariffs have little to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 05:58 AM

And Keith, in your last post you say:

"In fact it is thriving while our EU trade dwindles"

Which is nonsense, UK trade with the EU is increasing, and in 2017 was the highest it has ever been:

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851#fullreport

The EU share of UK trade has declined as other countries such as China, India, Brazil etc. have developed. But in absolute terms it is growing, indeed thriving, not dwindling.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 06:12 AM

That's a perfect example of "How to Lie With Statistics" you have found there, David. You are quite right. But how easily people are fooled, or fool themselves, by not appreciating that percentage share, change compared to a previous period and absolute numbers all give only a partial picture, and that picking the metric that best suits your case is so widespread.

The absolute figures, as you used, are the least misleading.

One of the things "Britannia Unchained" argues for is that people should do 'hard' degrees like mathematics and physical sciences, and of course a good understanding of mathematics would help avoid that confusion.

It seems a shame, then that the authors had these degrees themselves:

Dominic Raab - Law
Kwasi Kwarteng - classics and history
Priti Patel - Economics
Chris Skidmore - Modern History
Elizabeth Truss - Philosophy, Politics and Economics

(They did include Law as one of the hard degrees, but I didn't get as far as reading a rationale for that. And presumably the economics had some mathematical content, but it may not - there are some discursive forms)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 07:06 AM

"Which is nonsense, UK trade with the EU is increasing, and in 2017 was the highest it has ever been:"

In this present discussion trade is a two way street and is a somewhat perfidious term, if attempting to make a point. The crux of the matter is the balance of payments and their short term and long term trends. Defining increasing decreasing trade defines nowt. The figures for imports and exports need to be considered and whether they positive or negative and for how long.
"The share of UK exports going to the EU has declined gradually over recent years. In 2006, the EU accounted for 55% of UK exports. By 2017, this had fallen to 45%. The picture on imports is slightly less clear. In 2002, 58% of UK imports were from the EU. By 2010, this had fallen to 51% but has increased slightly more recently, reaching 54% in 2016. Over time both imports and exports to the UKfrom the EU have dropped.Also these figures pay no account for the rotterdam effect of being an entrepot port for certain British exports.(BRIEFING PAPER
Number 7851, 4 July 2018 House of Commons)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 07:20 AM

The fact is that our trade with the EU is vastly more important right now to our economy than our trade with the US. It will remain so indefinitely. Imports five times greater, exports two and a half times greater. So those people who laud the idea of a no-deal brexit, then in the next breath tell us what a great deal we can do with the US, are, frankly, verging on the insane. The best thing by a country mile for this country is to have the best deal possible with the EU. That means being in the single market and customs union. We will still trade with the US in goods they want from us and that we want from them, just as we do now. What this country can't afford is a far more difficult trading environment with easily our biggest trading partner for the foreseeable future, which brexit will ensure. Ditching a good arrangement with our best and closest trading partner in return for a doubtful deal, if any at all, with a much smaller player in trading terms, forcing a drop in our standards while we're at it, is just madness. Drop the crowing, brexiteering hubris, have a good think about that and get real.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 07:35 AM

Steve we have a balance of payments deficit with the EU and have had for years.Any punishment the fools try and impose on the UK will hurt them far more.The value of the trade deficit was about £60 billion in the 12 months to September 2016. The UK imported £302 billion worth of goods and services from the EU, and exported £242 billion worth, according to the Office for National Statistics.
The EU behave as though they hold all the cards, perhaps they need reminding of the worth of a busted flush!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 08:33 AM

In the 1970s the balance of payments was considered an important metric, but in the era of a floating currency much less so. If the balance of payments is negative, that means that British people have more shiny things to but, and they don't have to make them. If you want the balance of payments to be positive, stop British people buying stuff. But you won't be popular. The US runs a massive deficit on its balance of payments and has since the 1970s. It hasn't impacted upon the value of the dollar.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 08:41 AM

So how is leaving the EU going to improve our balance of payments deficit globally? Any more red herrings?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 09:34 AM

"It hasn't impacted upon the value of the dollar." YET!
It is only trust and hegemony supporting the dollar. Neither have to last for ever. Russia, China, Iran for a start would love to use any currency but the dollar for world trade. Should that happen, the US dollar would likely take a hit to kick it clean into touch. Any currency has similar vulnerabilities when international trade is permanently in deficit.
As you state currencies float. This means they can also drown. Many are no longer backed by gold. If not backed by something tangible, what else supports them? Nearly 50 years on trust alone and Fort KNox merely a name-how much longer can the game continue?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 09:57 AM

David,

No its not bad trade, because the imports are things we need and consumers want. Especially in a country with its own currency, a trade deficit is not bad, because it means that we get lots of nice things in exchange for currency which we can just create.

A trade deficit is a drain on a nation's wealth.

And the reason that our imports from the EU are five times greater than those from the US is that the goods produced by the EU are more desirable. Tariffs have little to do with it.

You are just making facts up. If EU goods were better they would not need tariff barriers to protect them.


Which is nonsense, UK trade with the EU is increasing, and in 2017 was the highest it has ever been:

Everything increases because of growth and inflation. As you well know the point is that it is dwindling as a proportion of our total trade which should not need spelling out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 10:53 AM

"A trade deficit is a drain on a nation's wealth. "

No it isn't, the wealth of the nation increases by the value of the goods received.

"You are just making facts up. If EU goods were better they would not need tariff barriers to protect them."

Largely there aren't, and if they are they are a small proportion of the value. Consumers do not choose entirely on price, they largely choose on quality.

"As you well know the point is that it is dwindling as a proportion of our total trade which should not need spelling out."

As I well know that isn't the point at all. The point is that the absolute value is increasing. Unless you are prepared to accept that point this conversation is over. You are just misusing statistics to spread a lie, a tactic used by scumbags like Farage, and bought into by poorly educated people. Which you are not, you should not be fooled, and I suspect you are not, but you are deliberately propagating the brexiters' lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 12:34 PM

"No it isn't, the wealth of the nation increases by the value of the goods received"

Not if debt is attached. Short term borrowing may fuel growth. Long term borrowings means a country becomes a consumer. It will have to go into debt to pay for consumption instead of investing in future growth.

An analogy would be buying a house with an interest only mortgage. One day the capital must be repaid. This is a basic economic fact -    apparently not understood by many.
Is not devaluation one of the few steps available to counter a large payment deficit? Why else do it?

Persistent deficits are not uncommon today, with the United States and many other nations running persistent imbalances year after year. Economic theory, however, states that ongoing deficits are unsustainable in the long run and can lead to dangerous levels of debt which can cripple an economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 01:04 PM

David, what would be my motive for lying about this? It is nauseatingly elitist to proclaim that everyone who believes in Brexit is ignorant or lying.

Facts are open to interpretation, but I have only stated facts.

If an economic unit buys more than it sells, i.e. spends more than it earns, however "nice" and "shiny" the things it buys it will go broke.

Our EU trade is heavily in deficit. Our world trade is not. In proportion (OK now?) our EU trade is dwindling while other trade is growing.

The point of EU tariffs is to protect EU producers from foreign competition. Outside EU we could buy like for like cheaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 02:03 PM

Trade deficits do not impinge on the nation's economy as long as the deficit with one partner is countered by a surplus with another. I have a trade deficit with my local pub. I spend £50 a week there but the landlord never buys anything off me. I am not likely to go bankrupt because of this because I get income and elsewhere. Talks of trade deficits with the EU taken in isolation are yet another example of statistical manipulation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 02:08 PM

I have raised this several times before but there is quite an obsession here about tariffs. When Trump was saying a deal was not possible it was nothing to do with tariffs. Nor, when he changed his view was it about tariffs.

It was and is regulation that is the primary stumbling block. Juat talking tariffs the whole time is completely missing the main issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 02:26 PM

Here's Jake Rich-Mong's ideas about 'Post Brexit Life in the UK - for Nigel's benefit this is not 'just my opinion', but factual reporting by one of our responsible and trustworthy newspapers, The Independent....welcome to Teribus's proudly proclaimed 'Promised Land'!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 02:27 PM

"Outside EU we could buy like for like cheaper."

Unlikely. For a start EU regulations guarantee quality, hygiene and environmental standards.

DMcG says that regulation is a bigger stumbling block that tariffs, and this is right. And those regulations work in our favour as consumers, they mean that we are not being fed the kind of shit that the US agricultural industry would force on us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 02:29 PM

"Trade deficits do not impinge on the nation's economy as long as the deficit with one partner is countered by a surplus with another."

They don't even impinge upon the nation's economy even if it isn't. Because the supply of money is not fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 02:36 PM

"Talks of trade deficits with the EU taken in isolation are yet another example of statistical manipulation."
The thread had kind of drifted away from EU/UK to a more general thesis
that the wealth of the nation increases by the value of the goods received and counters to that idea. A trade deficit is only meaningful when considering total imports/exports. No One is going to argue with that! The only point of raising deficits in terms of UK/EU trade is to indicate that in monetary terms the EU risks more than the UK should negotiations fail, £302 billion/£242 billion in the last recorded year.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 02:44 PM

And, as we repeatly say, the EU risks are not just financial, but also social and political. So to behave as if all the matters is the money is to delude oneself. While the money is important, obviously, it is only one aspect, and a financial loss to the EU that preserves their other interests may be quite acceptable to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 03:18 PM

"And, as we repeatly say, the EU risks are not just financial, but also social and political"
Yes indeed:
Greece
Cypriot haircuts
Catalonia
To say nothing of a major falling out over uncontrolled immigration
Merkel hanging in on a wing and a prayer
Macron despised by his countrymen
To name but a few problems within the EU

The promised land of milk and honey is becoming a tad curdled, and the honey turned out to be a myth.
Better off out I suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 03:19 PM

David Carter, Can I suggest to you that you are wasting your time.

Hoops, hoops and ever more hoops.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 03:51 PM

DMcG, We choose the standards we will accept. We import chicken from the Far-East already. It meets EU standards but we have to charge a tariff.

Dave,
Talks of trade deficits with the EU taken in isolation are yet another example of statistical manipulation.

I did not take it in isolation. EU trade is a drain us. Non-EU trade is enriching us. Increasing the good trade and reducing the bad will make us more prosperous.

Unlikely. For a start EU regulations guarantee quality, hygiene and environmental standards.

We will continue to guarantee standards. We can even raise them if we choose because it will be decided by us not Brussels. Do you think UK incapable of setting standards for ourselves?

David,
They don't even impinge upon the nation's economy even if it isn't. Because the supply of money is not fixed.

How does that work David? Just borrow more when it runs out?

DMcG,
And, as we repeatly say, the EU risks are not just financial, but also social and political. So to behave as if all the matters is the money is to delude oneself. While the money is important, obviously, it is only one aspect, and a financial loss to the EU that preserves their other interests may be quite acceptable to them.

We are already aligned with them socially and politically. So far money is all they have wanted to talk about.

Rag, no-one has to do what you tell them. The rest of us are discussing the issues. Will you join in or just keep giving "suggestions" to people.?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 04:00 PM

Raggy, you are right, it isn't worth it. The very idea that being able to buy French wine and cheese, Spanish and Italian cured meats, Polish sausage, German cars, Dutch and Belgian fruit and vegetables is a drain is laughable beyond comprehension. Just completely bonkers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 04:16 PM

"We will continue to guarantee standards. We can even raise them if we choose because it will be decided by us not Brussels. Do you think UK incapable of setting standards for ourselves?"

As you seem to have missed it the first time or, more likely, you're ignoring it because it doesn't fit your agenda, I'll repost the link to Jacob Ress-Moggs vision regarding the degree to which we will be able to lower standards after the insanity of BrexShit...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 01:39 AM

I'll repost the link to Jacob Ress-Moggs vision regarding the degree to which we will be able to lower standards after the insanity of BrexShit...

And you can also read how Dominic Raab - the Brexit Secretary, lest we forget - wants to lower employment and welfare standards (like pensions, for example) - in his ideal world, in his book "Britannia Unchained"

His views on funding the NHS are also worth considering.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 02:39 AM

I thought I'd linked to a piece about Demonic (sic) Raab and his plans for impoverishing the vast majority of the nation. A very scary man, and a thoroughly nasty piece of work.

When I read about these leading movers and shakers in the Brexit debacle, I'm at a complete loss to understand the excitement, enthusiasm and unconcealed joy, of our Brexit-supporters on here. It's very obvious that life in the UK won't be, by any means, a bed of roses for any of us when "Weev taken are cuntry back". 'Politico-Economic Masochists' is about the only phrase I'm able to rustle-up to describe them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 02:55 AM

You did post some comments, Backwoodsman, but I don't think there was a link. But in any case, we can imagine the response 'quoted out of context', 'a biased summary', 'reviewer has their own agenda'.

Which is why I recommend reading the book he wrote. But do what I have done and order a copy from the library - no point paying him for the privilege of reading his ideals.


In Chapter 4, entitled ‘Work Ethic’, we explore the nature of the work ethic in South Korea, Singapore and Hong Kong and contrast this to that found in Britain. We ask ourselves, ‘What is it about these countries that makes them so dynamic?’ In this chapter we look at the way in which the state has made Britons idle. Our culture of instant gratification ignores the years of persistence that lie behind real success. Too many people in Britain, we argue, prefer a lie-in to hard work.


....


But changing Britain’s fortunes needs a relentless energy and determined focus. Vitally we will need to be tougher in taking on vested interests. These occur in lots of guises, through bureaucratic inertia, and many of the perks which a generous welfare state lavished on previous generations. We have to ensure that the general climate for business is attractive. This means that we should stop indulging in irrelevant debates about sharing the pie between manufacturing and services, the north and the south, women and men. Instead, we should focus on trying to make it easier for firms to recruit people and ensuring the tax burden is less onerous.

"Easier to recruit people" is elaborated later into hire-and-fire policies, reduced rights like paid holidays, longer hours ...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:03 AM

What really makes me smile is that, far from 'taking back control', the Leave voters have handed complete control to a bunch of people whose only interest in ordinary people is as a source of wealth for the already-immensely-wealthy - the (in)famous 'Upward Flow of Wealth'. Which, of course, is the true reason for Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:46 AM

MAINTAINING BRITISH STANDARDS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 04:19 AM

Hoops, hoops and ever more hoops.

A stunning contribution to the discussion. I do not know why the flyweight laddie bothers. One day he might actually contribute something of note.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 08:06 AM

THeresa May has just appeared on television sneering at Trump's suggestion that she should sue the E.U.

Meanwhile, back at the Pig Farm, the Government's Minister for Small Businesses and personal adviser to the P.M. has been forced to resign for sending over 20,000 sexual texts to 2 women
Comforting to know the British economy is in such responsible hands
What goes on BEHIND CABINET DOORS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 08:47 AM

David,
The very idea that being able to buy French wine and cheese, Spanish and Italian cured meats, Polish sausage, German cars, Dutch and Belgian fruit and vegetables is a drain is laughable beyond comprehension.

Then something is lacking in your comprehension David. We buy their stuff but they do not want ours, so we need to sell our stuff elsewhere. Non-EU countries already buy lots of our stuff and will by more when we can offer them free trade.

BWM, must you put so much "shit" in your posts. It is unpleasant and must deter people from expressing a view you may not hold.
the degree to which we will be able to lower standards after the insanity of BrexShit…
We can raise, lower or maintain them because we will be in control not Brussels. No-one wants lower standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 08:58 AM

"they do not want ours,"
/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-map-shows-which-eu-countries-buy-the-most-british-stuff-a7185746.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 09:04 AM

Thanks Jim, but the fact remains we have a big trade deficit with EU, but a nice trade surplus with US and with the rest of the world despite not being able to offer them free trade yet.

Luckily our non EU trade is already increasing while EU trade is shrinking as a proportion of our trade (OK David?)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 09:08 AM

"What really makes me smile is that, far from 'taking back control...."

Perhaps we should!

http://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/the-truth-about-britains-migrant-numbers/
Based on what we eat, one big supermarket chain reckons there are 80 million people living in the UK.

and A major, non-commercial agricultural institution reckoned at the time that there were 77 million people in the UK. Again, its reckoning was based on what was being eaten.

I wonder what the true figures are?
How many slid in on Labour's watch and did not leave?

Cue the usual nonsense from the usual remainiacs about the source not the content!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 09:12 AM

Sunday Times today,
"In an interview with the Sunday Times Magazine, New Zealander Crawford Falconer said “the world is begging for the UK to be able to trade with” and that opportunities from new trade deals were “enormous” after Brexit.
Falconer said the EU “travels as fast as the slowest carriage in the train” and Britain can now “move faster and further with our trading partners”. But he also warned that Brexit would require a “change of mindset within the business community” to focus on markets outside the EU."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/world-begging-for-deals-with-us-says-uk-trade-chief-7qd7qpcbx

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 09:13 AM

Who wants 5900?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 09:20 AM

" We can raise, lower or maintain them because we will be in control not Brussels. No-one wants lower standards."

Jake Rich-Mong (conceivably a future PM) and Demonic Raab both want to lower them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 09:27 AM

Bugger, so busy thinking about the shit that is BrexShit, I forgot to claim 5900!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 09:27 AM

"Thanks Jim, but the fact remains we have a big trade deficit with EU,"
"they do not want ours,"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 10:35 AM

"We buy their stuff but they do not want ours, so we need to sell our stuff elsewhere."

What we need to do is make better stuff. We do not need a trade surplus in a world of floating exchange rates.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 10:35 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:46 AM

MAINTAINING BRITISH STANDARDS
Jim Carroll

Interesting link, but I would question its accuracy (even if it is from the Telegraph):
The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, a leading economic forum, said that the wealthiest tenth of society now earn 12 times as much as the poorest, up from eight times as much in the 1980s.

In addition the amount of total income taken by the top 1 per cent of earners - including bankers, managers and executives - has doubled to 14 per cent.

By contrast, the top tax rate has fallen while benefits for the poorest have become less generous.

The article is from 2011, at which time the top rate of income tax was 50% the highest it had been since 1990, so hardly matching the claim which I've included in bold

While the inclusion of one false premise doesn't automatically invalidate the whole article, it does call into question the reliability of the article.
I am, of course, assuming that all the comments follow on from the first and that he is comparing 'now' (2011) with the 1980s. This is on the basis that he doesn't state any other dates for comparison.

HMRC's list of historic top rates (from 1990) can be seen Here

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 10:39 AM

Yes Jim, we buy their stuff but they buy much less of ours, leaving us with a nasty deficit. US and the rest of the world appreciate what we offer and will want to buy even more when there can be free trade.

BWM, no one person gets to decide such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 10:54 AM

After the recent story about the possibility of Airbus pulling out of UK following Brexit, it seems the announcement may have been a put-up job to support a government trying to find other reasons to water-down Brexit. Sunday Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 11:16 AM

but I would question its accuracy (even if it is from the Telegraph):
'Course you would Nigel - why wouldn't you
It doesn't make it any less true
It has also appeared in The Guardian and the Independent - and Reurers carried out
Don't you start Trump's "fake News" ploy
It is perfectly in line with what has ben happemin for several years now
SOME FIGURES

"Yes Jim, we buy their stuff but they buy much less of ours, leaving us "
You said they don't want ours - you lied

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 11:29 AM

Hold the fort Backwoodsman along with your other antibrexiteers. You all will be distracted by insults and getting down in the weeds of minutia but keep your eyes on the big picture of power grabs by the rich.

On the other hand, Brexiteers have an easier job of neglecting poverty, promoting inequality and lighting bonfires for racism.
You all have a chance to be a world leader like America in child poverty, incarceration and bad health out comes. You have gone from income inequalties of 6 to 1 and now 12 to one with a final goal outcome of 20 to 1. Why envy American examples of certain corporate incomes of 200 to 1 when you too can send income distribution soaring to the top.

The way I see it is that you are for a government with a social contract or you are for destroying that social contract.

Cap't Obvious

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 11:53 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 11:16 AM
but I would question its accuracy (even if it is from the Telegraph):
'Course you would Nigel - why wouldn't you
It doesn't make it any less true
It has also appeared in The Guardian and the Independent - and Reurers carried out

Jim,
I made perfectly clear why I doubted its accuracy. It claimed that the top tax rate had fallen between the 1980s and 2011 whereas in fact it had risen. The fact that the article appeared in several places does not increase its credibility. (except with the extremely credulous)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM

"Brexiteers have an easier job of neglecting poverty, promoting inequality and lighting bonfires for racism."

AND THIS

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 12:34 PM

On Airbus: That is reading a great deal between the lines, Nigel. The article suggests that Airbus were encouraged to release the forecast. There is nothing to suggest the forecast was anything other than Airbus' genuine opinion - or at least not in the section I can read before the paywall obscures things. So referring it it as "a put up job" is not something you would allow anyone else to get away with, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 12:54 PM

I'm not suggesting that the forecast was inaccurate, but that it found its way into the papers shortly prior to the Chequers meeting in order that it could be used as an indication of possible problems coming from Brexit.

Airbus bosses are furious after the Government spurred them to publish a dire forecast of the impact of Brexit before handing a prize £2bn RAF contract to US rival Boeing without a competition.

The Telegraph has learnt that last month’s bombshell warning from Airbus that it could be forced to leave the UK came after discussions with senior Remainer ministers preparing for the Chequers summit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 12:59 PM

"BWM, no one person gets to decide such things."

I named two, both very influential, at least one of them with a large 'fan club'. You can be certain there are more. And you can be absolutely certain they will spread their ideas very far and very wide. After all, a multi-millionaire ex-stockbroker, and a nasty Eton Old-Boy had no problem persuading you and 17 million others, by a series of oft-repeated lies, to see things 'their way'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 01:01 PM

Precisely so, Nigel. You are implying that because it came after the meeting that caused the release. Perhaps, perhaps not: maybe Airbus had decided to publish anyway and simply warned the remainers. Claiming it is a 'put up job' may be a suspicion, but no evidence is given.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 01:07 PM

"You all will be distracted by insults and getting down in the weeds of minutia but keep your eyes on the big picture of power grabs by the rich."

Yes, Don - precisely what I've been saying ever since the BrexShit (your delicate sensibilities upset by that word again, Keefy? Tough...errrrmm....shit!) debacle began. The Leave Campaign was a tool of those people - designed to press the racist, xenophobic, and nationalistic buttons of a group of permanently-dissatisfied people who were looking for a scapegoat for every perceived 'injustice' and drawing their eyes away from the ball with their red buses, and meaningless slogans.

BrexShit has never been anything whatsoever to do with the people "Taking are cuntry back", or 'Taking Back Control', but everything to do with a tiny group of immensely-wealthy people Taking Back Control for their own purposes. They needed a lot of easily-deluded people to fall for the BrexShit bullshit and bollocks and, by virtue of a deceitful campaign of their own and a badly-run, flawed Remain campaign, they found them - 17 million of them.

I made a prediction, when Theresa May became PM, that a way to prevent the lunacy of BrexShit happening would eventually, one way or another, be found, and that is looking more and more likely with every farcical day that passes.

Please God, give us a sign and make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 01:13 PM

Nearly 6000 posts and how many of them quote good news about brexit? It makes me cringe to see some on here, who rely on experts for most of their arguments elsewhere, completely denying 99% of expert opinion on why leaving Europe is a bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 01:50 PM

Repeat after me, Dave - "There. Is. No. Good. BrexShit. News".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 02:07 PM

Brexit has not happened. How can there be any news?
Remainers keep making bad forecasts. That is not news.
Leavers do not bother because they have already won. We are leaving.

Having said that, The Sunday Times article I quoted earlier was very positive.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 02:12 PM

Iains re your post of 04.19, In the past weeks, months, nay last two years I have posted numerous comments against our leaving the EU together with numerous links to my sources.

Not once have you made any argument against anything contained in those links and now you have the temerity to suggest I do not contribute.

I would, politely, request that you post something that remainers could consider to be good news.

However I will not hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 02:42 PM

Another one that should be completely ignored, Raggy. You cannot reason with the unreasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:03 PM

"How can there be any news?"
Brexit has not happened.
Remainers keep making bad forecasts."
ONLY REMAINERS - YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:10 PM

Raggedttash Sensible comments generate sensible responses. As you have no doubt noticed, much of the time your comments are totally ignored. This should tell you something.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:44 PM

Hmmm Iains,

I presume there no little,if any, response was because people like yourself could not generate a single reasoned argument to counter what is being said by hundreds of financial, business and political commentators, some of whom could be considered experts in their field.

However you could prove me wrong by posting from people in similiar postions who can provide some good forecasts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:50 PM

You haven't a clue as to what's being ignored and what isn't, you arrogant bugger. Sometimes I agree with posts so fully that I feel there's no more to be said, therefore I don't say it. Sensible people here don't always need their mates to say "me too." Grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:56 PM

PS Iains,

you don't help your argument one iota by posting such names as Raggedttash, those are the sort of comment I associate with people of very limited intelligence.

You may understand who I am referring to! :-)

Cheers

Anyway it's time for some music once again !! I've brought my 12 string out tonight!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 04:07 PM

Rag,
Not once have you made any argument against anything contained in those links and now you have the temerity to suggest I do not contribute.

Just linking to Remain articles from a Remain paper is not contributing.
There are just as many pro-Brexit articles in the Leave press, but the argument is already won. Why bother?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 04:43 PM

I cannot find any pro brexit arguments by any living economists who are peer checked, have degrees at Oxbridge universities and have their work published in mainstream book shops. Can anyone help?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 06:31 PM

I do fine it rather strange Dave that not one single article or comment has been posted on this site that has been positive about any projected outcome of Brexit.

Not a single one, not in over two years, by any of the leave voters.

I repeat not a single one.

It would seem that every commentator, business magnate, financial authority is wary or even very dubious of out move out of the EU.

Well, I suppose we can live in hope which seems to be all the Brexiteers can offer us although I have to say I am not at all confident in their hopes.

Perhaps just one of them, one with an ounce of intelligence, could supply us with something to be hopeful about.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 07:38 PM

"Just linking to Remain articles from a Remain paper is not contributing."
Links here have come from every corner and shade of the press - Nigel pointed out that one came from the Telegraph
Nice to know that all the arguments are being read - gives you a warm feeling (in the throat)!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 08:04 PM

Raggytash wrote: I do fine it rather strange Dave that not one single article or comment has been posted on this site that has been positive about any projected outcome of Brexit.

Not a single one, not in over two years, by any of the leave voters.

I repeat not a single one.

That can only be because you do not read and/or understand what people post. To put it simply, the freedom from multiple negatives is a multiplied positiive. I have posted earlier in this thread some of the negatives incurred in being part of the EU. Brexit will mean freedom from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 01:56 AM

A freedom from a negative is not a positive unless it is replaced by a positive. It can easily be replaced by a different negative.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 01:59 AM

I should have said "replaced by something less negative", of course put the point remains, you need to say what is replacing the negativea you eliminate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 02:21 AM

One more point, before I leave for work!

No one knows what is going to happen in the next few weeks and months. There has been a lot of talk of elections and a second referendum, for example.

"Leave" won the last one by a few percentage points, and could win another by the same margin, perhaps. But if they want to be as sure as possible of winning, they need to persuade some who voted remain to vote leave should another referendum appear. So there is every reason for the leavers here to present arguments that might persuade remainers.

Equally, remainers don't do themselves any favours if they just abuse leavers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 03:01 AM

Monty Python had it about right!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 03:04 AM

Stanron claims to have posted negatives of EU membership, but the only one I can see in Stanron's posts is that the EU places tarriffs on foreign food. Which is largely not true and the EU has negotiated tariff free access to EU markets for many food producers, particularly those in the third world. which accounts for the wide variety of countries of origin you see on the labels on supermarket shelves. But when weighed against the positives of EU membership:

Tariff free access for European food
Frictionless trade across borders
Access to the vast European market for UK goods
Euratom
Horizon2020 and the predecessor Framework programmes
Erasmus
Opportunities for our young people to live, work and travel across a whole
    continent.
EHIC
ERDF
ESF

Stanron's negatives seem trivial indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 03:37 AM

Ah but, ah but, ah but, 'Promised Land', 'Take are cuntry back', unicorns........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 04:27 AM

"'Take are cuntry back', unicorns........ "

Do you need a few spelling lessons old chap?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 04:29 AM

There are pro-Brexit arguments in the Leave press every day, but Remainers here do not read them and Leavers do not bother to post them because that is not discussion.
Re another referendum, recent polling suggests that a majority want a hard-Brexit so no-one is being convinced by all the Remain doom-mongering.

BWM, your posts are still full of "shit." Is it a medical problem? Some variant of Tourette's?
Please heed DMcG who said, "remainers don't do themselves any favours if they just abuse leavers."
That is all you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 04:43 AM

Fist posted;

"Date: 01 Jul 18 - 12:49 PM

The EU is corrupt. It has failed to present accounts for goodness knows how long.
The EU is incompetent. Had the EU offered any kind of effective reform before the referendum we may not have voted to leave.
The EU is dishonest. When we last voted in the 70s it was about remaining in or leaving an economic community. The plan for political union existed then but was hidden. This was dishonest.
The EU is undemocratic. We were never allowed to vote on stuff they reckoned we would reject. We cannot elect any of the people who originate policy.
The EU is a train wreck in the process of happening.

We are seriously well off outside of it."

Sounds like a positive to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:36 AM

And now Justine Greening is calling for a second, three-way referendum:
1. Leave EU with no deal.
2. Leave EU with Mrs May's deal (although it has not yet been agreed by EU)
3. Stay as a member of EU (if they'll still have us, and on our former terms? or on harsher terms than previously?)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:41 AM

"Do you need a few spelling lessons old chap?"

Not me, old fruit - I'm merely quoting some of the amusing mis-spellings perpetrated by Union-Flag bedecked, dumb-fuck Leave voters around Internet sites and forums since the Referendum (hence my quotation-marks). Hilarious that some of the most vocal protagonists of the 'Take Our Country Back' meme don't even have the intelligence or education to spell it correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:47 AM

I have seen some misrepresentations of the Justine Greening proposed votes, so to be clearing it is not a three way vote in the sense your MP election might be a three way bote between Labour, Liberal and Conservative. You are asked to rank all three outcomes and the least popular eliminated with its votes redistributed. This is a widely used voting system designed to end up with one choice qih

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:48 AM

... with the winner representing more than 50% of the voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:49 AM

More typos and autotext noise. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:49 AM

"BWM, your posts are still full of "shit." Is it a medical problem? Some variant of Tourette's?
Please heed DMcG who said, "remainers don't do themselves any favours if they just abuse leavers."
That is all you do."

No, that is not all I do. I make perfectly valid points and pose important question, to which your response is to either begin your belly-dancer gyrations in order to wriggle around them, or you simply ignore them completely.

And may I remind you (respectfully, or disrespectfully - I couldn't care less) of your frequent accusations of others, over the lives of many threads on this forum, of posting 'made-up shit'? It appears you're the one with Tourettes, or a very short memory.

People in glasshouses....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:53 AM

"Not me, old fruit"
Hate to be the bearer of bad tidings Baccy - hoops and yet more hoops
This feller gets off on talking down to people from his intellectual hole in the ground
Responding to his supercilious abuse is feeding his peacockery
I'm poised on the verge om preparing yet another list of his seri8ally abusive bon mottes for yat another public viewing of where we are so far with him
I'm sure you know this already but, as you've saved me from my accesses on a number of occasions I thought I'd return the favour
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 06:02 AM

You're right of course, Jim. However, on this occasion, and as one of the better spellers and users of English around here, I decided to treat Teribus's comment as a bit of light-hearted fun, and respond in like-manner. But I'm old enough and wise enough to respect the old adage about being wary of Greeks bearing gifts!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 06:15 AM

Feel free to continue to respond to him - it will save me trawling the other threads for his personal abuse to have enough here on hand (though I think there already a month or so's worth on tap)
I think you are wrong in identifying him as Teribus, by the way
Our former friend at least made the effort to present his bullshit with a veneer of so called 'facts'
This feller's boorish behaviour is just lazy loutishness based on hastily scooped info from morons like Guido Fawkes - totally devoid of effort
He's even lifted his insults directly from others (including Mr T)
He lacks his predecessor's energy and entertainment value
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 07:01 AM

So Stanron, a series of lies about the EU and then "we are better off out". How about you instead provide a list of the positive benefits to be of leaving. Ones which outweigh the positives of the programmes I listed. Just how will I be better off outside of the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 07:25 AM

You could be right about his true identity, Jim. But the similarity of style, and the use of the same insults against the same people persuade me that they are one and the same. And he's never denied it, not once.

But I agree, one swallow a summer doth not make and, after a brief exchange of light-hearted banter, our mate will almost certainly revert to type. He can't help himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 08:08 AM

"The EU is undemocratic. We were never allowed to vote on stuff they reckoned we would reject. We cannot elect any of the people who originate policy."

So if we leave the EU, how are you going to guarantee that all UK civil servants engaged in policy formation, UK policy think tanks etc will be democratically elected, or is it just foerigners you resent doing this????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 08:17 AM

It's just been announced that Former Education Secretary, Justine Greening is calling for a second referendum on Brexit
She argues that the Remainers have never been happy at leaving and the Leavers believe that the current proposals are tantamount to staying in the EU
What next, I wonder
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 08:23 AM

SPB, because all UK civil servants engaged in policy formation and UK policy think tanks only advise. The decision lies with ministers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 08:27 AM

"What next, I wonder"

With any luck, the abandonment of the flawed and completely failed BrexShit Experiment, a return by our government to the real business of running the U.K. for the benefit of all of its citizens, and taking a lead in the overhaul and reformation of the EU.

Oh, nearly forgot - an a GE to kick this corrupt and incompetent Tory government out of office for a very long time.

It's a dream, but it's considerably more realistic than 'Take are cuntry back' and lies on buses.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 09:10 AM

"The EU is undemocratic. We were never allowed to vote on stuff they reckoned we would reject. We cannot elect any of the people who originate policy."

Note the weasel words here. "We" can vote on all EU policy, and, indeed, we have the power of veto in many policy areas, unlike some smaller nations. We are one of the most influential nations when it comes to drawing up EU law and, out of thousands of laws or regulations brought into being since we joined, we have demurred on less than three percent of them - outvoted, not non-voted. There is no scheme for disallowing such votes. "The people who originate policy" are elected representatives acting on the suggestions, and only the suggestions, of commissioners. Those commissioners can't bring policy into being - which is what I understand by the word "originate," a word you apparently chose in order to obfuscate. You might as well accuse all UK governments of being undemocratic because they have unelected advisers suggesting policy to ministers. The EU is a large organisation with a necessarily large bureaucracy, but it's no less democratic than any of its member states. We get that you are a solid leaver, but if you wish to make your case it would help if you stuck to the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 09:17 AM

Spot-on Steve.

Unfortunately the Union-Jack-Underpants and British-Bulldog-Tattoo Brigade aren't intellectually equipped to understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 09:46 AM

Does not matter, brexiteers won, remainiacs lost. Drivelling does not change this reality!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM

There you go, Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 10:28 AM


Does not matter, brexiteers won, remainiacs lost.

The referendum, yes. But a lot of Brexiteers seem to believe where we seem to be heading is as bad if not worse than losing.

And surely where we end up is what matters?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 11:52 AM

"There you go, Jim!"
Never lost faith in him fro a moment more predictable that No 14 buses
Let's face it, this guy and Mr T aren't exactly the brightest buttons on the SS uniform
Maybe one is the other on an off-day - wonder if the betting shop's still open!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM

But a lot of Brexiteers seem to believe where we seem to be heading is as bad if not worse than losing.

I see no evidence of that at all, unless you mean those who fear we are heading for a soft Brexit instead of what we voted for.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 12:03 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Note the weasel words here.

Weasel words, but whose? Yours or mine? I made five points. Where are the weasels?

For instance, for which years has the EU presented fully audited accounts?

How was the EU not incompetent when it failed to offer reforms which could have reversed the outcome of the referendum?

Did you know when you voted back in the seventies, if you did, that the Economic Community was only a first step towards political union? I certainly didn't and had I known I would have voted against it. I am sure that most people would have done the same and I am equally sure that that was why we were not told.

My last statement in itself is proof of my next point. We were not allowed to vote on political union. Economic cooperation was acceptable and we were allowed to vote on it. Political Union was not acceptable so we weren't told. Dishonest and undemocratic.

The train wreck observation is my personal judgment. You may see it as a shining light, it might even be at the end of a tunnel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 12:04 PM

"Let's face it, this guy and Mr T aren't exactly the brightest buttons on the SS uniform "
When young jimmie was a child, he thought like a child, Now he is in his dotage it seems he still thinks like a child!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 12:11 PM

Was anyone else aware at the time of the referendum that they were voting for a "hard" or "soft" Brexit.

I thought it was either we leave the EU or stay in the EU.

Presume I must be mistaken!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 12:20 PM

Thanks again Iains
Another for the list - keep 'em comin'
You realise you lifted that directly from something I posted yesterday
Nobody can ever accuse you of and excess of initiative and originality
"Where are the weasels?"
Perhaps they went "pop"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 12:27 PM

What political union? The 28 states are still independent countries, last time I heard. There are left-wing, right-wing, populist and a whole cornucopia of different regimes in Europe and I see no diminution of nationalism in any country that defends its national identity. The part of your post I quoted is just a routine piece of mindless brexiteer nonsense. You just about fell short of accusing "unelected Brussels bureaucrats imposing laws on us." It's just nonsense. No significant changes to overall EU policy can be made while we are able to exercise our veto. We have a big say in the formulation of all major EU laws and regulations and have disagreed with a vanishingly small number that ever managed to come into force. The best you managed there was a veiled insinuation that there's corruption afoot. Something about poor auditing. There may well be some poor financial management (up there with promising a billion to a bunch of terrorist sympathisers I suppose, or even wasting public money on a referendum and an ill-judged general election), but if you have evidence of deliberate EU corruption let's be having it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 02:25 PM

The current debate on going in the house of commons is "interesting" to say the least.

This division within the ruling party, at a time when unity is vital, is of great concern.

I shall read the rest of the debate with trepidation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 02:31 PM

If what I have just read is true it beggars belief.

There is talk of bringing the summer recess forward by 6 days, the upshot of which will mean that discussion is limited.................!!!

I, obviously mistakenly, thought we were a democratic country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:50 PM

Stanron, you still cannot come up with one single way in which I will be better off out of the EU. Not one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:50 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: What political union?

Well Steve, I am surprised that you haven't heard of 'Ever Closer Political and Economic Integration'. Here's one link, amongst many that I got from putting

'Ever closer political and economic'

into a search engine. Notice a, there is no need to mention the EU and b, i didn't use the G word. Try it. The link is

http://sites.tufts.edu/enricospolaore/files/2012/08/Euro-June-2013.pdf

I've not read it myself yet. I'll save it up for tomorrow.

As for the UK veto, well I wouldn't trust our lily livered political class to put the UK's best interest befor their own political advantage.

Don't forget that Tony Blair gave up our rebate in exchange for something or other and when the EU said "Sorry we don't think we can do it", didn't kick up any kind of fuss. How much are you willing to bet that he had not already been offered a place on the Commision a few years down the line. No wonder he wants to keep us in. If we are out he wont get the job, or the 10 million pension pot.

I suspect that David Cameron got a similar kind of offer if he managed to keep us in.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 06:12 PM

Not a lot of focus there, Stanron? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 06:36 PM

Ooops! Trouble at Mill!


https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/07/grassroots-rebellion-downing-street-is-starting-to-realise-the-scale-of-to

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 02:01 AM

Oops! Trouble wi' t'link...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:04 AM

Problem is that leavers are transfering control from a body that works on the basis of concensus rrepresenting the interest of the citizens of 28 states to an over-priviledged elite which currently drive policy in the UK. Every time the negative impacts of leaving are higlighted, leavers just fall back to bleating "we won,get over it." If you want it, you pay for it - not just for yourself, but pay for the rest of the c0puntry. If you don't want freedom of movement for yourself, you are happy to pay tarrifs, you want customs restriction fair enough, don't f**k thing up for the rest of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:07 AM

Stanron says:

"As for the UK veto, well I wouldn't trust our lily livered political class to put the UK's best interest befor their own political advantage."

And here is an important issue, the UK's political structures are very decayed, and it is much more likely that EU politicians and even commission officials will act in the best interests of myself and other people in the UK, than that UK politicians will. We have a corrupt cabinet in the UK, Fox should be disqualified from office for his expenses fiddles, and in gaol for giving a Whitehall job to an agent of a foreign power. He has demonstrated time and time again that his loyalty is to a foreign country. Johnson is a liar and an adulterer, May is weak, Rees Mogg is only there to serve the interests of the very rich. I would much rather Barnier, Juncker etc. made the decisions which affect the people of Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:29 AM

"Oops! Trouble wi' t'link..."
Still trouble wi' t'link Iains
Considering yesterdays fiasco of a debate, the skin-of-the-teeth vote and the steadily growing list of resignations, I suggest the article has probably been removed - watch this space (or not - a the case may be
There's democracy for you !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:46 AM

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/07/grassroots-rebellion-downing-street-is-starting-to-realise-the-scale-of-tory-opposition-to-the-chequers-plan.html

Blue clickys do not work on this item, but I would hate to disappoint you!

and below we have a labour mp claiming the electorate are too stupid to vote on referendums (not referenda, as quoted) I wonder why she thinks she is so superior? Perhaps they will confirm their stupidity by re electing her, come the next election.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/989592/Brexit-news-update-Brexit-referendum-Leave-Remain-second-vote-Lucy-Powell

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:26 AM

Rag,
Was anyone else aware at the time of the referendum that they were voting for a "hard" or "soft" Brexit.
I thought it was either we leave the EU or stay in the EU.

It was! Both sides made clear that voting Leave would take us out of the customs union and the single market, but the Remainers have been frantically trying to row back from that ever since.


There is talk of bringing the summer recess forward by 6 days, the upshot of which will mean that discussion is limited.................!!!
I, obviously mistakenly, thought we were a democratic country.

Parliament would have to vote for it, so however much we might disagree there is nothing undemocratic about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM

Lucy Powell makes closely-argued points about why she thinks a referendum was not appropriate. She did not anything like make a point about people being too stupid. Thing is, if you provide a link you have to accept that there's a danger of people actually reading it. As with Stanron yesterday, if you have a point to make it helps if you stick to the facts. And, whether you like it or not, the argument against referendums is a pretty respectable one and one which has been made here a number of times. I assume that you are opposed to a second referendum. Care to tell us why, when you were perfectly hunkydory with the first one? For the record, I'm opposed to both...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM

If you read what Lucy Powell says, rather than what you have spun it as, she is of course completely right.

I did follow the link to the vile express, I will have to disinfect my keyboard and mouse now!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:31 AM

Though there's something undemocratic about, for example, Parliament deciding on whether we stay in the EU...? Seems that this democracy malarkey is a moveable feast...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:48 AM

" but frankly we are all paid a lot of money to take these decisions and to come to compromises and to see through these difficult issues."

ain't nuffink complex or difficult about voting yea or nay.
The woman is a fool.Glad the halfwit does not represent me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:51 AM

Nothing complex, eh? So simple that two years of twisting, turning and agonising over the details have got us precisely nowhere. Thank God there's nothing complicated about it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:54 AM

Care to tell us why, when you were perfectly hunkydory with the first one? For the record, I'm opposed to both...


In Ireland they repeat the process(referendum) until the EU obtains the answer it wants. A rather perverted form of democracy doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:04 AM

Parliament decided unanimously to allow it to be decided by referendum.
Democracy in action.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:14 AM

"In Ireland they repeat the process(referendum) until the EU obtains the answer it wants."
Over a number of years - and when the demand for another is strong enough - there is no "them" about it and the EU has no say whatever in Referenda
Like proportional Representation, if is a higher form of democracy giving even those who lose the vote a say in the running of the country - not pefect, but far more democratic than the stupid 'first past the post' system
It is significant that, when Ireland was divided and the Six Counties decided to create a Protestant State giving the dominant two-thirds a say in what happened, the first thing they got rid of was Proportional Representation - leading to decades of sectarian violence and inequality based on religion and eventually, years of bloody warfare
Go read a book - anything written by Englishman Robert Kee will do very nicely
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:43 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:31 AM

Though there's something undemocratic about, for example, Parliament deciding on whether we stay in the EU...? Seems that this democracy malarkey is a moveable feast...

Democracy: a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

Clearly the basic referendum was totally democratic, as it was an expression of the wishes of the eligible members of the state. For the representatives of those members to overturn the result of the referendum would be undemocratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:44 AM

"giving the dominant two-thirds a say in what happened, "
Should read
giving the majority two-thirds a dominant say in what happened,

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 07:32 AM

BrexShit Campaigners Cheated - send for the cops!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 08:18 AM

Clearly the basic referendum was totally democratic, as it was an expression of the wishes of the eligible members of the state

There is nothing democratic about people who have been given the task of running the country and being paid plenty of money to do so abdicating responsibility for doing so.

The whole thing was a farce from start to finish and the farce continues with the current mismanagement. That anyone would for such a gamble without having any plans as to what would happen if it did not go their way beggars belief.

Nick Cohen in the Spectator has a better handle on it than most. We don’t know where Brexiteers are going now. And neither do they And a better turn of phrase.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 08:42 AM

There has never been a plan for BrexShit, Dave, and it is outrageous that the morally-bereft, clueless, and cowardly leaders of the Leave Campaign were allowed to shit their boxers and run away the morning after the Referendum.

Those dick-wads got us into this steaming pile of ordure, they should have been made to take responsibility for the execution of the entire BrexShit process.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 08:43 AM

BASTARD HTML!!

Only 'never' should have been underlined. FML!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 09:47 AM

What is so difficult about voting yes or no? The treacherous PM is deliberately making a dog' breakfast of leaving. No doubt she is a fully paid up member of the secretive common purpose. The political entity that is registered as a charity. Wonder how that works?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM

"Clearly the basic referendum was totally democratic"

Precisely the opposite of this is the truth. Elected representatives, paid to know what they're talking about and paid to do the job, put the decision in the hands of an ignorant electorate whose ignorance was deliberately maintained by a campaign of cynical lies on both sides. The electorate was presented with a fear campaign that had no basis in reality from one side and by a pack of lies about taking back control, pie in the sky promises about the NHS and a healthy dose of racism thrown in by the other side. If that's your idea of democracy in action, well it isn't mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 10:09 AM

Steve, if they had not, the strength of feeling among the people would have led to a populist, anti-EU party taking control and doing it anyway. The referendum gave them a fighting chance of stopping it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 10:13 AM

"What is so difficult about voting yes or no?"

Shall we decide to get divorced, dear?

Yes! About time!

There, what was so difficult about that!

Nothing, dear. Piece of cake!

Er, but what about the house? Sell it? But there won't be enough for us to buy two separate ones...

And what about the savings? Oi, if you think you're having half you can go and whistle - they came out of my earnings while you were at home with the kids, and I always earned a lot more than you!

Oh, so bringing up the kids isn't important, is it! Bastard! I sacrificed my career for our kids!

And you can forget having a slice of the fifty grand my dad left me. Keep it in the family!

I AM family, you swine!

And the kids... they should live with me, not you. In fact, I should keep the house.

Oh yeah, sez who! Let's ask THEM who they want to live with!

But they're only five and three, you prat!

And I keep the sports car because you drive the J-reg Astra all the time...

Bugger off! That is NOT how it works and you know it!

And I get to have half your pension because looking after the kids meant I couldn't build mine up...

Oh yeah???! .................




Yes Iains, just a simple matter of yes or no, innit! Bwahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 10:48 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM

"Clearly the basic referendum was totally democratic"

Precisely the opposite of this is the truth. Elected representatives, paid to know what they're talking about and paid to do the job, put the decision in the hands of an ignorant electorate whose ignorance was deliberately maintained by a campaign of cynical lies on both sides. The electorate was presented with a fear campaign that had no basis in reality from one side and by a pack of lies about taking back control, pie in the sky promises about the NHS and a healthy dose of racism thrown in by the other side. If that's your idea of democracy in action, well it isn't mine.

There we have it. Steve Shaw's basic premise is that the electorate is "ignorant" (himself included?). And so the decisions should have been taken by our elected representatives. Does he realise that those representatives were elected by the same people he considers "ignorant"? Hardly an argument for good governance!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 11:52 AM

Both the far Left and Right have contempt for the electorate because they do not support their extreme views.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 11:53 AM

Who wants 6000?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 11:59 AM

One Thousand Half-dozens!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 12:01 PM

The referendum was won on the basis of playing the Xenophobic ticket (Enoch Powell's wet dream) - the victory was marked by a sharp inctrease in racist incidents THIS HAS GROWN STEADILY EVER SINCE
THis has now filtered through to our young people
THIS HAS GROWN STEADILY EVER SINCE
Nobody bothered too much about being in Europe until low-foreheads and knuckle draggers like Farage whipped them into a frenzy of hate and fear
Far from offering a decent future, this massive leap in the dark has degraded and debased Britain
Populism has sfa to do with democracy - it is the oldest rallying cry of intolerance in history
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 12:05 PM

Whoops
THis has now filtered through to our young people
THIS HAS GROWN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 12:20 PM

Feck
This is what I keep trying to put up
Must get a grip on this multi-tasking lark
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hate-crime-schools-colleges-uk-education-rise-racism-lgbt-race-ethnicity-a8183061.html
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 12:44 PM

"There we have it. Steve Shaw's basic premise is that the electorate is "ignorant" (himself included?). And so the decisions should have been taken by our elected representatives. Does he realise that those representatives were elected by the same people he considers "ignorant"? Hardly an argument for good governance!"

I take it that you do know the difference between electing members of parliament every four or five years, a throughly reversible, broad-brush process should the electorate lean that way, and an irreversible referendum whose apparently simple question was underlain by highly technical, logistical and legal problems that the country knew very little about? What proportion of the electorate could have explained the first thing about the customs union, the single market and the upcoming Irish border issue by June 23 2016? Well I don't know the precise answer to that any more than you do, but I can assure you that millions on both sides blithely put yes or no on their ballot papers without having the slightest inkling of the implications of their decision for those matters. You may want to read all sorts into my use of the word ignorant, but the really scary thing is that it has become abundantly clear over the last two years that it is exactly the right word. It certainly applies to a good few people involved in this discussion, and you are clearly one of them, I'm afraid, going from the simplistic and falsely hopeful nonsense you post.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 01:49 PM

Nobody bothered too much about being in Europe until low-foreheads and knuckle draggers like Farage whipped them into a frenzy of hate and fear

Not true. There were widespread feelings against the EU before Farage, but no party would listen before Farage.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 02:09 PM

I think the only knuckle draggers hereabouts are those that cannot accept that the majority voted to leave. And as for putting yout trust in politicians words simply fail me.

According to Darwin's theory the knuckle draggers have to be in the minority because those with superior   traits achieve dominance, as exemplified by the brexit voting. Those like shaw that insist politicians make all the decisions because they are cleverer than the rest of us. What a merry jest that ridiculous supposition is proving to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 02:14 PM

Just go down the pub and ask some of the punters what the customs union is. Maybe then you'll drop the denial.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 02:27 PM

I am disappointed shaw. Surely you can generate a better response that that pathetic offering above? Knuckles dragging maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 02:30 PM

I don't recall ever saying that politicians were any cleverer than anyone else. What they are is better informed and have access to information that we dont. Their job, for which they have been elected and are well paid to do, is to do the best for the people that elected them and pay their wages. Instead they have fed the electorate a pack of lies and then expected them to make an informed decision. Cleverer? Possibly not. More devious? Probably. Set of self serving shysters? Definitely.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:03 PM

Dave,
Thanks for that description of politicians.
Does that mean you agree, or disagree, with the idea that whether to leave the EU should have been left up to the "lying, devious self-serving shysters" rather than put to the, less well-informed electorate in a referendum?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 03:54 PM

Oh fuck, now Nigels's become Keefy's Apprentice Hoop-Setter-Upper. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:14 PM

I am a tad surprised that no one has yet mentioned that the leave campaign have been finded for breaking elections laws.

One comment I heard earlier was that they were argreieved because they had not discussed the matter with the Electoral Commission.

The Electorial Commission stated that they had been asked to discuss it with them but had not done so.

So, in addition to cheating, the Leave campaign would seem to to be liars.

No doubt I will be told "we wun, deal wiv it"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:21 PM

Perhaps someone would be kind enough to link to the article on the Guardians politic page. "Vote Leave broke Electorial Law and democracy is shaken"

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:29 PM

"I am a tad surprised that no one has yet mentioned that the leave campaign have been finded for breaking elections laws."

You didn't read my post earlier today then, Raggy - I linked to the Independent's article on that topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:30 PM

Post timed at 07:32

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:31 PM

In my view the deliberate cheating by the leave campaign, which actually amounted to criminality, coupled with all the bloody lies they told about NHS money (bus) and immigration (poster), brings the whole brexit process into question. Leave won by a very narrow margin. Had they not used those underhand tactics, who knows how many people would have voted the other way? Chuka Umunna delivered a devastatingly excoriating speech on this in the Commons today. I'd love to hear our resident crowing brexiteers trying to justify what's been going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:41 PM

"I'd love to hear our resident crowing brexiteers trying to justify what's been going on."

You mean like sticking their fingers in their ears and singing, "La la la"? Or rabbiting on about "We won, get over it!"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:51 PM

Does that mean you agree, or disagree, with the idea that whether to leave the EU should have been left up to the "lying, devious self-serving shysters" rather than put to the, less well-informed electorate in a referendum?

Neither Nigel. It is not a binary issue and cannot have a binary answer. Just like the whole EU question. A completely unelected and undemocratic media also had their hand in this. As did the parties who's interest was to ensure that the proposed EU tax laws did not interfere with their salted away fortunes. The whole thing was a shambles and should have never happened. But it did and now the clowns who caused it do not have a clue how to proceed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 02:31 AM

OK, this is entirely subjective, but I'd be interested in hearing everyone's view on this one.

After the last few days I feel we have moved out of the stage where a 'no-deal' was basically a bravado-threat on both the UK and EU sides, into a very real chance of it happening. Using the informal idea of probability in everyday use, I would put the position at something like 30% no-deal, 70% deal.

What are your judgements?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 03:15 AM

"I think the only knuckle draggers hereabouts are those that cannot accept that the majority voted to leave."
Accepting the inevitable is not an option what the decision was based on and passed for obviously bad reasons
It was sold on Powell's RIVERS OF BLOOD wet dream, and the IMMEDIATE RESPONSE FOLLOWING THE RESULT is proof posetive that that was the driving force behind the deciions to leave.

The refusal of you defenders of people's rights (if you happen to be of the right background, race, religion or colour) to even address how Brexit was sold and the consequences of its acceptance is as 'knuckle-dragging' as it gets - hiding behind the sham democracy of populism is equally prehistoric.
The refusal to view the present and almost certainly, future shambolic disruption of British life and society as a suggestion that that decision has brought some very nasty chickens home to roost beggars belief   
The "we won" midlessnes of these arguments.... Jay-sus!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 03:30 AM

I don't know how anyone would put a percentage on it, but it seems more and more likely.
I originally thought that we would get a negotiated deal, but 'no deal' would be a suitable fall-back position.
As Mrs May keeps reducing what we are requiring, and the EU refuse to negotiate (saying "that's not good enough, suggest something else" is not negotiating) then 'No deal' becomes more and more inviting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 03:50 AM

One gleam of comfort in all this is that, whatever decision wins will lead to the end of this present Government and a General Election - surely!
If the people of Britain aren't given the right of a second referendum based on the facts that have emerged during this catastrophic fiasco, at least they can (or should be allowed to) make their voice heard on who should lead them out of the inevitable chaos
Those countries who will be affected by the fallout are already making contingency plans - Ireland certainly is
It is to be hoped that the Border shenanigans won't herald an end to the Peace Agreement and a return to violent sectarianism
If it does, that blood with be on the hands of the Brexiteers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 04:07 AM

Just a word on the "probability": I agree putting a number on it could be misleading. But you can ask questions such as "is a deal more likely than a no-deal"? if so, is it a bit more likely or a lot? And so on. And I think you can put that on a scale. I agree it is not really a probability, but it is close to what people often do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 04:09 AM

" It is not a binary issue and cannot have a binary answer."

What an asinine statement.

Perhaps the knuckle dragger would like a third option on the ballot for don't know?(as if it makes any difference)
The vote underpins democracy and the issues presented have to be binary, in/out, yes/no.
The country was presented with a referendum. A referendum is a direct vote in which an entire electorate is invited to vote on a particular proposal. This may result in the adoption of a new law. In some countries, it is synonymous with a plebiscite or a vote on a ballot question.

The other knuckle dragger seems to think everyone that voted for out is a supporter of Enoch Powell. Like most of what he posts, the idea is arrant nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 05:07 AM

"The other knuckle dragger seems to think everyone that voted for out is a supporter of Enoch Powell."
Nope - just his ideas
Like moall of your posts - your reply is totally devoid of even the effort to rebuff what has been said
AnY moron can offer insult rather than argument - they usually do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 05:22 AM

"AnY moron can offer insult rather than argument - they usually do"
As exemplified by your goodself!

Remember this little gem? 27 Feb 17 - 06:32 AM
"Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians
People with far more knowledge and experience have had their fingers burned on this forum by forgetting their place.
You really are an obnoxiously smug bastard, aren't you"
or this 26 Feb 17 - 02:57 PM
Make up your fucking mind you mad fascist"

Plenty more tucked away jimmie. But no point in boring everyone to death, it is common knowledge you froth nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 06:16 AM

"Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians"
That followed a long series of somewhat pathetic attempts to talk down those who had had the temerity to argoe with - you'd hardly been contributing to this thread for a month or so and already you has set out to belittle and insult your fellow posters and you have not refrained from doing so since
Perhaps you would care to link to the circumstances in which I made that remark - or maybe you would like me to
Always happy to oblige
You have become noted for your serial abusive behaviour - others indulge in such behaviour occasionally, including me - with you it is an addiction
Happy to link to the huge list of examples of your abuse if you wish

Before we close this thread between us, I suggest we retuurn to the subject
You have my arguments - let's have yours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 09:49 AM

Caught a fractionn of news last night relating to the agreement between the EU and Japan (other Asian countries) about removing tariffs from goods including vehicles. A spokesman seemed to suggest that this would be detrimental to the UK car industry in we were no longer part of the EU.

As I said I only caught a snippet does any know more.

But never mind Brexit is good eh!?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 10:46 AM

Here you go, Raggy

European Union signs its biggest ever trade deal after striking agreement with Japan

I cannot find the bit about it being detrimental but it does say

At the moment, EU companies pay €1bn (£890m) of duty on products they export to Japan. Almost all of these tariffs will now be removed and 95% of tariffs the other way will also be wiped out.

These companies - including UK firms until Brexit - export nearly €60bn (£53bn) of goods and €28bn (£25m) of services to Japan.

According to the European Commission, the new deal has the potential to increase these exports by a quarter.

So, no free trade with the US. No free trade with Japan. It gets better and better doesn't it. Brexit, the gift that keeps shitting on you!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 10:56 AM

But, but, but, taking are cuntry back, we won get over it, unicorns...!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 11:05 AM

I trust some of you have read May's reply to Johnson's resignation letter. In it she clearly states that an extra #394 million will be available to the NHS.

What she doesn't say fo course is that, according to a BBC news report, that that will be based on either huge cuts to other services and/or significant tax rises.

Brexit, don't you just love it.

Any good news anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 11:06 AM

For the life of me, I cannot see how The Praying Mantis can last much longer. She's visibly a wreck, floundering around at PMQs, her voice becoming more and more tremulous with every appearance, whilst The Blond Buffoon and Jacob (call me Jake) Rich-Mong plot her downfall (and therewith a 'hard' BrexShit with no agreement).

Well let the buggers flounder. The last thing we need is another GE, and the last thing Labour need is to find themselves in office with this steaming heap of ordure dumped in their laps.

On the other hand, the Rothermeres, Murdochs, et al, along with their rich buddies in parliament, would be positively incandescent with delight that their dirty offshoring activities and sundry other tax avoidance schemes will be able to continue without hindrance.

What a fuck-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 11:10 AM

So, no free trade with the US. No free trade with Japan

Why not Dave?

I am a tad surprised that no one has yet mentioned that the leave campaign have been finded for breaking elections laws.

I am a tad surprised no-one has mentioned that Leave denies the accusation and intends to fight it in court, or that Remain spent millions more than Leave mostly funded from public purse.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 01:16 PM

Interesting comment from Teresa May to the Select Committee today:


The question session with the prime minister starts with Labour's Hilary Benn asking if it would not strengthen Mrs May's hand to put the Brexit White Paper to a Commons vote.

She responds that many pieces of legislation have been put through Parliament, and the EU knows what her government's position is.

He asks if she can confirm that a no-deal Brexit would lead to a hard border in Ireland.

She says that there is no simple answer, and in the event of no-deal the situation at the border would depend on decisions made by the government.


No simple answer to whether a "no-deal" Brexit would lead to a hard border in Ireland, eh? And dependant on decisions by this government, not the EU? Hardly the strong commitment by the government to no hard border mentioned many times on this thread, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 02:13 PM

Personally I don't want a free trade deal with the USA, at least under their current regime. It would be to the advantage of the USA, and to the detriment of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 04:26 PM

Agreed, David C. Who would want to deal with the idiot in the White House? Apart from BoJo...

Oh, hang on. Just thought. Maybe this is where we are going.

Heaven help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 06:45 PM

Another snippet I heard last night was that the new trade deal between the EU and Japan etc could mean that cars from Japan, Korea and others could drop in price by about #5,000 per vehicle.

What price the "British" car industry if Nissan et al decide to close or curtail their operations here.

Loss of revenue, loss of jobs (most in areas a that have low levels of employment at present)

Good news anyone ................?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 03:16 AM

I think that you are right and the deal with Japan will reduce the need for Japanese companies to manufacture in Europe. It will be all Japanese owned car factories under threat. I don't actually think that brexit changes this, they may go anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 04:03 AM

"Another snippet I heard last night was that the new trade deal between the EU and Japan etc could mean that cars from Japan, Korea and others could drop in price by about #5,000 per vehicle."

And pigs might fly!

There is a world of difference between could and would. The difference between possibility and actuality. Obviously these subtleties are a bit of a stretch too far for remoaners.

By the way is # some new currency conjured up by a remainiac?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 04:14 AM

Archaic keyboards sometimes do not have the Euro symbol.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 04:20 AM

Despite this we already have a pledge from Toyota to continue in UK: BBC News 28 Feb 2018

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 04:46 AM

That was well before the new European tariff deal, Nigel. Things have now drastically changed and Toyota are a business no different to any other. They will do what is best for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 04:48 AM

Archaic keyboards sometimes do not have the Euro symbol.
That's no excuse, anyone can type 'Euro', so Raggy could have clarified whether the figure quoted was 5000 Euro, 5000 pounds, or 5000 Yen. Obviously the figure for pounds/Euro are not so different, but 5000 Yen is about 34 pounds, so accuracy helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 05:11 AM

Shift 3 can be either # or £ depending on US/UK keyboard layout so I thought anyone with a vague knowledge of these layouts could have worked it out. Niddling does not really add anything to the discussion though does it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 05:28 AM

That was well before the new European tariff deal, Nigel. Things have now drastically changed and Toyota are a business no different to any other. They will do what is best for them.
I'm sure they will, but there seems to be an inbuilt bias here.

News that Toyota have pledged investment is discounted by saying they will look after their own interests, while it has been put here to counter nebulous comments about what may happen:
Another snippet I heard last night was that the new trade deal between the EU and Japan etc could mean that cars from Japan, Korea and others could drop in price by about #5,000 per vehicle.
What price the "British" car industry if Nissan et al decide to close or curtail their operations here.
Loss of revenue, loss of jobs (most in areas a that have low levels of employment at present)
Good news anyone ................?

It seems strange (but not surprising) when snippets of overheard 'news' are given greater credence than published news.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 05:35 AM

DMcG, May has already stated that under no circumstances will we install border infrastructure, but we can not stop the other side doing it.

David,
Personally I don't want a free trade deal with the USA, at least under their current regime. It would be to the advantage of the USA, and to the detriment of the UK.

Not true. Free trade deals benefit both parties.

Rag,
EU and Japan etc could mean that cars from Japan, Korea and others could drop in price by about #5,000 per vehicle.
What price the "British" car industry if Nissan et al decide to close or curtail their operations here.

Do not worry Rag. UK has been fully involved in negotiating that deal and we will both want to keep it after Brexit.


Dave,
That was well before the new European tariff deal, Nigel.

No it was not.
Indie, "The signing in Tokyo on Tuesday for the deal, largely reached late last year, is ceremonial. It was delayed from earlier this month because Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe cancelled going to Brussels over a disaster in southwestern Japan, caused by extremely heavy rainfall."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 05:38 AM

Dave, do you really think Toyota did not know the details in Feb of a deal sewn up last year?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 06:01 AM

Johnson the Braindead's present attacks of Mayflower make it obvious that he is making a bid for leadership
A fanny grabbing mysoginist President and a sexual predatory Prime minister at the same time
Make sure your chastity belts are in good order girls!

ON THE CARDS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 06:21 AM

Nigel, Toyota staying or leaving is in the future. As you are always keen to point it is just speculation regardless of where it comes from. I am just trying to maintain a balance as I am sure you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 06:37 AM

Dave,
No, as I made clear (to the point of putting it in italics) it was a pledge. That does not make it 'speculation' (except in the financial sense).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 06:49 AM

The article you link only mentions pledge in relation to what the government have promised. From the article itself.

Toyota has said it will build the next generation of its Auris hatchback at its Burnaston plant in Derbyshire.

The Japanese carmaker also said its Deeside factory in North Wales would build most of its engines

It goes on to say

In other words, it is firmly committed to the UK for now. But that commitment is not open-ended or unconditional. and

"With around 85% of our UK vehicle production exported to European markets, continued free and frictionless trade between the UK and Europe will be vital for future success." (Dr Johan van Zyl, president of Toyota Europe)

No promises or pledges in view and conditional on frictionless trade with Europe. Just saying something is worth about as much as putting it on the side of a bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 07:31 AM

Nobody can commit themselves for an indefinite period, and you seem to choose to take the last part of that quote as relating to the first part. I see it differently.
Toyota has said it will build the next generation of its Auris hatchback at its Burnaston plant in Derbyshire.

The Japanese carmaker also said its Deeside factory in North Wales would build most of its engines

It goes on to say

In other words, it is firmly committed to the UK for now. But that commitment is not open-ended or unconditional. and

"With around 85% of our UK vehicle production exported to European markets, continued free and frictionless trade between the UK and Europe will be vital for future success." (Dr Johan van Zyl, president of Toyota Europe)

For now, Toyota is increasing its investment, and will build its new model in UK. Due to uncertainties it cannot make promises beyond these promises already made.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 07:51 AM

I see it differently.

Therein lies the crux of the matter, Nigel. Maybe you're right and maybe I'm right. Maybe neither of us are and the truth is somewhere in the middle. I am more than happy to accept that and I suspect that you are as well. There are some however that will only ever believe that theirs is the only truth and that is where the discussions go downhill...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 08:37 AM

Dave, Toyota has said it will build the next generation of its Auris hatchback at its Burnaston plant in Derbyshire, so who cares what you say?

Also, Toyota said its Deeside factory in North Wales would build most of its engines, so again who cares what you say?

Why should anyone ignore Toyota's own statements just because they do not fit your prejudices?
Do you have any special knowledge? No.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 08:44 AM

See what I mean? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 11:22 AM

Well here's a bit of good news - the EU College of Commisioners is putting in motion the procedure which will hopefully allow UK citizens to claim permanent citizenship of the EU, should they wish, after we've finally been committed to the BrexShit Asylum.

Nothing written on tablets of stone, but they are at least inviting citizens of the other 27 Member States to indicate their support, or otherwise, for such a law to be enacted. Not quite the image of 'unelected bureaucrats forcing laws on Member States' that the BrexShitters would like everyone to believe is the standard Modus Operandi of the EU?

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4566_en.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 11:43 AM

I thought anyone with a vague knowledge of these layouts could have worked it out. Niddling does not really add anything to the discussion though does it.
So why are you?

copy and paste from another source works extremely well

£ $ € ??? CFA ? T$
No excuses,even for antiques!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 12:03 PM

Dave,
maybe I'm right.

Maybe, but what is the likelyhood of you knowing more about Toyota's plans than they do?!

No-one would believe you on that Dave. You have made a twat of yourself again.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 12:04 PM

that does sound positive - but is that just grasping at straws. i very much hope this would be possible as i have 3 close relatives in estonia, italy and germany who want to get passports for those countries but are worried they would not be able to come back to the uk if necessary. great this brexit innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 12:13 PM

"Maybe, but what is the likelyhood of you knowing more about Toyota's plans than they do?!

No-one would believe you on that Dave. You have made a twat of yourself again."

Thus spake he who exhorts everyone to be civil with each other on here, and rebukes others (such as me) for using bad language.

BrexShitter hypocrisy at its worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 12:29 PM

Still very early in the day, but Raab was saying he hoped to be getting progress on the White Paper, while the EU is saying - as it has done for the last two years or so - it needs the Withdrawal Agreement sorted first. David Davis went in wanting to talk trade before agreeing things like the Irish Border mechanisms, you remember.

So no progress at all by the sound of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 12:33 PM

I am being civil BWM, but making the reasonable point that Toyota have stated their intentions and no-one here suggesting otherwise will be believed. I would have left it there, but Dave came back with a dig at me over it.

Good to know that he does not ignore my posts. He just can't answer them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 01:01 PM

No answer for your bad language, Keefy?

In the Bad Language Richter-Scale, I'm fairly certain that calling a fellow contributor a 'twat' ranks considerably higher than inserting 'sh' into Brexit.

The second time I've had to remind you of the 'People in glasshouses' adage in recent days. Not quite the Mr. Perfect you like to pretend you are, are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 01:08 PM

Iains, I am typing on a tiny keyboard attached to my tiny tablet. I do not have access in my apartment to the internet and so I am doing this in a bar.

If you, and to a lesser extent Nigel, cannot understand that, well you have my sympathy, but I am certainly not going to apologise for it.

Once again people on your side of the discussion are picking up on trivialities and not addressing the core points.

The snippet of news I heard was from the BBC, normally a fairly reliable source, suggested that because of the trade deal between the EU and Japan etc various goods would no longer be subject to various tariffs. The reporter went on to suggest that vehicles, in particular, would become far cheaper when exported from Japan, Korea etc.

If this where to be the case then it may make better economics for Nissan, Kia et al to export from their bases in that part of Asia than to manufacture in the UK which will in all probability no longer be a a part of the EU in a short time.

If this does prove to be the case, the future of these companies within the UK the finance, the jobs will be lost.

Yet another unintended consequence of Brexit. Nobody wrote that on the side of a bus!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 02:13 PM

Just ignore him, BWM, I do. The latest twists, turns and trap setting confirms that it is the best option.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 02:19 PM

On Monday, in the House of Commons and reported in Hansard Anna Soubry said:

If we do not deliver frictionless trade, either through a customs union or some magical third way that the Prime Minister thinks she can deliver—good luck to her on that—thousands of jobs will go, and hon. Members sitting on the Government Benches, in private conversations, know that to be the case. What they have said in those private conversations is that the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs will be worth it to regain our country’s sovereignty—tell that to the people who voted leave in my constituency. Nobody voted to be poorer, and nobody voted leave on the basis that somebody with a gold-plated pension and inherited wealth would take their jobs away from them

No one denied that that was "being said in private conversations" during the Debate.

I wonder if people here think losing the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs will be worth it to regain our country’s sovereignty? And if they think that is scaremongering, what would be acceptable? 50,000? 10,000?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 02:21 PM

"losing the loss" - I mean incurring the loss, of course. Let's not pick up on trivia instead of addressing her point.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 03:45 PM

Brexit voters think that the loss of any number of jobs will be worth it, not so much for sovereignty, more for having less foreign sounding people around. As long as it isn't their job of course. But it will be, oh it will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 01:59 AM

I came across a quote this morning, from Mark Twain in 1906. It strikes me as being especially applicable to the Leave voters as the entire Brexit debacle, built as it is on a tissue of lies, unravels before our eyes, yet they steadfastly refuse to understand the extent to which they have been duped, and they continue to defend the indefensible...

"The glory which is built upon a lie soon becomes a most unpleasant incumbrance. … How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and how hard it is to undo that work again!” – Autobiographical dictation, 2 December 1906. Published in Autobiography of Mark Twain, Volume 2 (University of California Press, 2013)

Quote of the Day, AFAIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM

"What they have said in those private conversations is that the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs will be worth it to regain our country’s sovereignty"

quoting Handard on the above is ridiculous.
It is merely rumour and hearsay, with zero evidence to back it up.

The western australian hansard quotes fairies at the bottom of the garden. Do you believe that as well? as it was stated in hansard?

Opinion does not become fact just because Hansard is forced to quote everything verbatim
Hansard accurately reports. It has no mechanism to verify the accuracy of what is being reported

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 04:44 AM

The same people told us that just voting leave would result in thousands of job losses. The opposite proved true.

If you only listen to one side you will just confirm your prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 04:52 AM

BWM, is "twat" so bad?
Also I called no-one a twat. I did say he had made a twat of himself.

Toyota have said what their plans are so no-one cares what he thinks they might be.
We know.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:03 AM

Iains, I am typing on a tiny keyboard attached to my tiny tablet. I do not have access in my apartment to the internet and so I am doing this in a bar.
If you, and to a lesser extent Nigel, cannot understand that, well you have my sympathy, but I am certainly not going to apologise for it.
Once again people on your side of the discussion are picking up on trivialities and not addressing the core points.
The snippet of news I heard was from the BBC, normally a fairly reliable source,

Raggy,
This is the first time (19 hours later) that you have given a source for your 'snippet'. Previously it was: Another snippet I heard last night was that the new trade deal between the . . .
This could have been overheard from any source, be it one of numerous news channels, or even a discussion in a bar. That Is why I would give it very little credence compared to the well published quote from Toyota.
As you say, the BBC is normally a fairly reliable source. But we won't take that into account if we don't know you're quoting the BBC.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:15 AM

Wiki on modern usage of "twat,"

Modern usage
Although sometimes used as a reference to the female genitalia (a usage that predominates for the word in North American English), the word twat is more often used in various other ways:
As a derogatory insult, a pejorative meaning a fool, a stronger alternative to the word twit – 'He can be a complete twat'[9] (frequent in British and Commonwealth English, and not unheard of in North America)
Informally as a verb meaning to hit someone[2] (a British usage)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:24 AM

Rag, why not use the search facility on the BBC news site to find your "snippet."
All I can find is the Japanese/EU trade deal and the Toyota story just discussed here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:26 AM

That the statement was made is fact. That is why I quoted Hansard. Separately, the statement that "people are saying this in private" may or may not be true, and whether the job losses will occur is a third thing, quite distinct from the first two.

But all that, and many of the responses so far, are not really relevant to my question. For example, cheaper food, should it arrive, will undercut the farming industry and that would lead to job losses. Professor Mitford, for one, is quite relaxed about that. I got the impression earlier that so was Iains, but if he wants to correct me, please do.

So that was the heart of my question. What is the trade off, if any, between the freedom to set your own rules and risk to jobs?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:38 AM

No-one denies that the statement was made, but it has no significance. Just a strongly Remain MP repeating anti-Brexit propaganda. You could find plenty of Leave MPs' statements to stand against it if you wanted to.

For example, cheaper food, should it arrive, will undercut the farming industry and that would lead to job losses.

Bad example. Much of it will be products not grown here, and we intend to continue subsidising our farmers to protect them anyway.

Cheaper food will disproportionately benefit the poorest people for whom it is their main expenditure. Better to help them than wealthy land owners.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 06:01 AM

"Also I called no-one a twat. I did say he had made a twat of himself."
Why have you people allowed this discussion to reach this level of imbecility?
Beggars belief - it really does
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:00 AM

Jim, just ignore the twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:47 AM

I am reminded of a song

Like a spiral in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel

Or maybe just twist and shout?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:52 AM

Or maybe the next verse?

Like a tunnel that you follow to a tunnel of its own
Down a hollow to a cavern where the sun has never shone...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:59 AM

"Jim, just ignore the twat."
Where's the fun in that
Just having a break from work - won't happen again (probably will when I need a break from reality)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 10:30 AM

I'm amazed he doesn't put his back out with all the wriggling and hip-swivelling. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 11:12 AM

I assume the remainiacs argument factory has run out of stock!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 11:53 AM

I can't speak for anyone else, but I was waiting for the EU comments arising from the meeting with Raab and their thoughts on the White Paper. They are exactly as one would expect: the EU sees no reason why it should - for example - implement a tax collection system just to suit the UK. Nor is it prepared just to trust the UK to collect theirs.

Both absolutely reasonable, whatever the Brexiteers may feel.

There is an article in the Guardian today about how the Brexiteers will blame anyone except themselves for any problems.    It is always everyone else sabotaging things. Seems a fairly accurate observation of the Brexiteer mindset to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 12:02 PM

DMcG - it's another example of the ludicrous stance taken by the Leavers ever since the Referendum, that it's the responsibility of the EU to give the U.K. everything it wants. Why do those Brexiteer bone-heads not understand - the U.K. took the decision to leave, the EU owes us nothing.

It's like someone resigning from the golf club, but still wanting to use the club-house and play the course - it ain't gonna happen.

It's a childishly simple concept, yet the 'Take are cuntry back', Union-Jack-Boxers Brigade seem completely incapable of understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 12:42 PM

I see the pound has "plummeted" against the Euro once again.

Brexit don't you just love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 01:05 PM

"I see the pound has "plummeted" against the Euro once again."


But compared to it's value around 13 months ago the pound has soared.

You need to define your terms laddie, otherwise you merely appear silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 01:36 PM

An interesting aspect of Brexit in this mornings paper which stared as a paeon odf praise for the British/Irish cultural connection, but finished up like this
It should be of interest to those of us here for the music - but certainly won't be to some
Jim Carrolj

THE IRISH TIMES Friday, July 20, 2018
CULTURAL RELIEF FROM THE HEAT AND ENDLESS MADNESS OF BREXIT
Denis Staunton London Letter

.....Over the next eight weeks, about 300, 000 people will attend almost 80 concerts at the Royal Albert Hall and other venues, many paying just £6 for a standing ticket. Among the themes this year are the centenaries of the end of the first World War, the introduction of women’s suffrage and the birth of Leonard Bernstein.
If today’s programme of Schumann, Mendelssohn and others fails to excite you, there are still tickets available for La Bohéme at the Royal Opera House, some for as little as £11. The Lehman Trilogy at the
National Theatre, directed by Sam Mendes and starring Simon Russell Beale as one of the Lehman brothers, is sold out for its entire run.
But you should get a ticket for this evening’s performance of Patrick Marber’s adaptation of Ionesco’s Exit the King, with Rhys Ifans and Indira Varma. And during the afternoon, you could take in the Summer Exhibition at the Royal Academy, co-ordinated this year by Grayson Perry.

NATIONAL IDENTITY
The wealth and excellence of London’s cultural offering is not only a major tourist attraction and one of the joys of living in the city, it is a long¬standing part of Britain’s national identity.
In Humphrey Jennings’s 1942 propaganda film Listen to Britain, a visual poem spanning 24 hours across wartime
Britain, the climactic scene shows Myra Hess performing a Mozart piano concerto at a lunchtime concert at the National Gallery. The music plays over a montage of shots showing the queen (later the queen mother) in the audience. Trafalgar Square, Nelson’s Column, buses rounding a corner and a barrage balloon flying overhead.
Then it cuts to a scene of soldiers marching, bayonets raised and to a munitions factory, with a piston rising and falling. The film’s final images of wheatfield, a factory, a power station and an aerial shot of the English landscape through the clouds are accompanied by Elgar’s Rule Britannia.

The film has no commentary, save for a prologue spoken by Leonard Brockington, a Canadian barrister: “Many years ago, a great American, speaking of Britain, said that in the storm of battle and conflict, she had a secret rigour and a pulse like a cannon. In the great sound picture that is here presented, you too will hear that heart beating. For blended together in one great symphony is the music of Britain at war.
“The evening hymn of the lark, the roar of the Spitfires, the dancers in the great ballroom at Blackpool, the clank of machinery and shunting trains. Soldiers of Canada holding in memory, in proud memory, their home on the range. The BBC sending truth on its journey around the world. The trumpet call of freedom, the war song of a great people. The first sure notes of the march of victory, as you, and I, listen to Britain. ”

Heard today, the words sound like a distillation of the spirit invoked by the most romantic Brexiteers and the Last Night of the Proms has itself in recent years become a battleground for Brexit. Remainers in the audience have taken to bringing European flags into the Royal Albert Hall to wave alongside the Union Jacks during the final, patriotic sequence in the programme.

PRACTICAL PROBLEM
The audience for opera and classical music in Britain includes a generous share of Brexiteers, but among those who work in the arts, it is more difficult to find anyone who doesn’t regret the decision to leave the EU. For many, Brexit could be as much a practical problem as a political one, as composer Howard Goodall pointed out recently.
“Even if we were to negotiate visa-free access for musicians, orchestral players would still see 15-20 per cent of their
salary deducted to pay for social security in their host country, a cost that is currently waived under the EU’s A1 system, ” he wrote.

“Even the movement of instruments would become more problematic. Outside of a customs union, musicians would need to hold an ATA Carnet to avoid paying import duties and taxes on their instruments. Such carnets are expensive, and checks will lead to long queues at borders. ”
The Creative Industries Federation warned last month that, without an agreement to guarantee ease of movement between Britain and the EU, the impact on the UK’s position in the international cultural world would be “catastrophic”.
Chief executive John Kampfner suggested summer festivals could be hit especially hard by extra costs for visas and transporting equipment

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 01:36 PM

An interesting aspect of Brexit in this mornings paper which stared as a paeon odf praise for the British/Irish cultural connection, but finished up like this
It should be of interest to those of us here for the music - but certainly won't be to some
Jim Carrolj

THE IRISH TIMES Friday, July 20, 2018
CULTURAL RELIEF FROM THE HEAT AND ENDLESS MADNESS OF BREXIT
Denis Staunton London Letter

.....Over the next eight weeks, about 300, 000 people will attend almost 80 concerts at the Royal Albert Hall and other venues, many paying just £6 for a standing ticket. Among the themes this year are the centenaries of the end of the first World War, the introduction of women’s suffrage and the birth of Leonard Bernstein.
If today’s programme of Schumann, Mendelssohn and others fails to excite you, there are still tickets available for La Bohéme at the Royal Opera House, some for as little as £11. The Lehman Trilogy at the
National Theatre, directed by Sam Mendes and starring Simon Russell Beale as one of the Lehman brothers, is sold out for its entire run.
But you should get a ticket for this evening’s performance of Patrick Marber’s adaptation of Ionesco’s Exit the King, with Rhys Ifans and Indira Varma. And during the afternoon, you could take in the Summer Exhibition at the Royal Academy, co-ordinated this year by Grayson Perry.

NATIONAL IDENTITY
The wealth and excellence of London’s cultural offering is not only a major tourist attraction and one of the joys of living in the city, it is a long¬standing part of Britain’s national identity.
In Humphrey Jennings’s 1942 propaganda film Listen to Britain, a visual poem spanning 24 hours across wartime
Britain, the climactic scene shows Myra Hess performing a Mozart piano concerto at a lunchtime concert at the National Gallery. The music plays over a montage of shots showing the queen (later the queen mother) in the audience. Trafalgar Square, Nelson’s Column, buses rounding a corner and a barrage balloon flying overhead.
Then it cuts to a scene of soldiers marching, bayonets raised and to a munitions factory, with a piston rising and falling. The film’s final images of wheatfield, a factory, a power station and an aerial shot of the English landscape through the clouds are accompanied by Elgar’s Rule Britannia.

The film has no commentary, save for a prologue spoken by Leonard Brockington, a Canadian barrister: “Many years ago, a great American, speaking of Britain, said that in the storm of battle and conflict, she had a secret rigour and a pulse like a cannon. In the great sound picture that is here presented, you too will hear that heart beating. For blended together in one great symphony is the music of Britain at war.
“The evening hymn of the lark, the roar of the Spitfires, the dancers in the great ballroom at Blackpool, the clank of machinery and shunting trains. Soldiers of Canada holding in memory, in proud memory, their home on the range. The BBC sending truth on its journey around the world. The trumpet call of freedom, the war song of a great people. The first sure notes of the march of victory, as you, and I, listen to Britain. ”

Heard today, the words sound like a distillation of the spirit invoked by the most romantic Brexiteers and the Last Night of the Proms has itself in recent years become a battleground for Brexit. Remainers in the audience have taken to bringing European flags into the Royal Albert Hall to wave alongside the Union Jacks during the final, patriotic sequence in the programme.

PRACTICAL PROBLEM
The audience for opera and classical music in Britain includes a generous share of Brexiteers, but among those who work in the arts, it is more difficult to find anyone who doesn’t regret the decision to leave the EU. For many, Brexit could be as much a practical problem as a political one, as composer Howard Goodall pointed out recently.
“Even if we were to negotiate visa-free access for musicians, orchestral players would still see 15-20 per cent of their
salary deducted to pay for social security in their host country, a cost that is currently waived under the EU’s A1 system, ” he wrote.

“Even the movement of instruments would become more problematic. Outside of a customs union, musicians would need to hold an ATA Carnet to avoid paying import duties and taxes on their instruments. Such carnets are expensive, and checks will lead to long queues at borders. ”
The Creative Industries Federation warned last month that, without an agreement to guarantee ease of movement between Britain and the EU, the impact on the UK’s position in the international cultural world would be “catastrophic”.
Chief executive John Kampfner suggested summer festivals could be hit especially hard by extra costs for visas and transporting equipment

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 02:37 PM

that it's the responsibility of the EU to give the U.K. everything it wants.

Not how I see it.
We have to leave. That has been decided.
Both sides want a deal that minimises damage, but each also wants the best for itself.
Free trade is mutually beneficial but only UK side seems to be pushing for that.
If no compromise can be reached, a mutually damaging exit will happen. We will have to see who it hurts most, or who blinks first.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 02:40 PM

Iains, a short time ago an idiot claimed that the pound had "soared" because it had risen by one half of one cent, which as you and I both know is less than one half of one percent, which again both you and I realise is not "soaring"

You made no response to that inane claim at the time, in fact your silence was "deafening"

So if I now claimed that the pound has "plummeted" because it has fallen by double the amount that was claimed for "soaring" I don't really see how you can object.

Yes, you are correct to point out that a year ago the pound was in fact lower.

I could also point out that immediately before the Brexit vote it has been trading at around 1.30 Euro to the pound and above for several years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 02:46 PM

Iains, a short time ago an idiot claimed that the pound had "soared" because it had risen by one half of one cent,

The idiot was no-one here. It was a quote from Reuters I think.

that it's the responsibility of the EU to give the U.K. everything it wants.

Of course it is not, but it is the responsibility of our government to get the best possible deal for us.
You seem to object to that.
Should we accept any scraps thrown to us? Is that what you want for your kids and grandkids?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 04:07 PM

keith 'it is the responsibility of the government to get the best possible deal for us' well, that seems very obvious to me but some brexiteers i speak to seem to think may etc are in the business of selling us out and are suspicious of any distilling of the hard line brexit means brexit call. especially if it involves thinking by experts or liberals. our current government has tied itself into so many bizarre knots by trying to appease all parts of its party and ukippers that it literally makes no sense whatsoever. time to abandon the whole project eh? i'm sure everyone else (if they are honest) is just as bored and confused by the whole stupid idea as i am

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:01 PM

i'm sure everyone else (if they are honest) is just as bored and confused by the whole stupid idea as i am

I would not say I am bored by it - it is too important. Confused? Well, it is definitely confusing because everything is so incoherent. Only today, for example, Jeremy Hunt was saying the white paper is not the final word, in direct contraction to Andrea Leadsom yesterday who was saying it was. That's the level of mess we are in. The only way to get any handle at all on it is to accept that the UK proposals do not make a logical whole, and whatever is said is about picking acceptable forms of words while avoiding attaching any definite meaning to them, thus allowing everyone to interpret them to suit their own inclinations. Sometimes that is excellent politics. At other times, like now, it is disastrous. That lack of meaning is why Teresa May was not able to explain to the liaison committee how her customs plan would actually work.

Is the whole thing a stupid idea? Most certainly.

Am I honest? *I* think so, but others must judge for themselves :)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 08:59 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 02:40 PM
. . . I could also point out that immediately before the Brexit vote it has been trading at around 1.30 Euro to the pound and above for several years.

Once again this false claim which you have made before.
Immediately prior to the Brexit vote the pound was indeed trading at over 1.30 Euro. But not "for several years".
The graph of exchange rates shows that the pound did not hit 1.30 (or above) at any time between 2009 and the end of 2014. Pound/EU Rates

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 09:24 PM

Thing is, since the referendum, after which the pound collapsed, the pound has yet to achieve the rather modest level it attained five years ago. Clutching at straws again, Nige. Your attempts at deflection from the undeniably miserable picture are pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 03:07 AM

Tom Peck in the Independent wrote an article about the EU response to the White paper, which ends with the following. I think the question it asks is something we all need to ask.

===

At the start of her Belfast speech, by the way, [Teresa May] referred to what she had said "outside 10 Downing Street" when she became prime minister, about how the Conservative party’s full name is the Conservative and Unionist Party, "and how important that word, Unionist, is to me".

But there are some other words said by her outside 10 Downing Street about a year later, when she sought to consolidate her abysmal election campaign by rattling her sabre at Brussels, that suddenly feel more relevant, and which I quote here at length.

"This Brexit negotiation is central to everything," she said then.

"If we don’t get the negotiation right, your economic security and prosperity will be put at risk and the opportunities you seek for your families will simply not happen.

"If we do not stand up and get this negotiation right we risk the secure and well-paid jobs we want for our children and our children’s children too.

"If we don’t get the negotiation right, if we let the bureaucrats of Brussels run over us, we will lose the chance to build a fairer society with real opportunity for all."

How well do we think that’s going, exactly? Does it, maybe, kind of feel like that risk that was taken with our children and our children’s children’s futures might not be paying off?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 04:18 AM

It is ironic that the best deal for us is probably that offered by Brussels, and not that sought by the UK government, who have long since ceased to act in the interests of the population of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM

6100!

The deal offered by Brussels is the best for them, not us.
Our interests are different so we must negotiate and compromise.

that it's the responsibility of the EU to give the U.K. everything it wants.

Of course it is not, but it is the responsibility of our government to get the best possible deal for us.
That requires our government to argue against them in our interest.

No-one here has defended how the government has gone about that.
We are all in agreement on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 04:32 AM

DMcG,
How well do we think that’s going, exactly?

No-one is happy with how it is going.

Does it, maybe, kind of feel like that risk that was taken with our children and our children’s children’s futures might not be paying off?

No, and there is no sign of significant number changing their mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 02:39 PM

But Keith, maybe the best deal for you is not the best deal for me. The best deal for me includes my right of freedom of movement. The UK government is not acting in our interests, it is not "us".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 02:39 PM

I read earlier part of the liaison committee minutes, and it seems May said: "Over August and September we are going to be releasing a number of technical notifications to set out what UK citizens and businesses need to do in a no deal scenario, so making much more public awareness of the preparations," she told the Liaison Committee, which is made up of the chairman of all Commons Select Committees."

For comparison, the EU has already released 68 aimed at businesses.

I wonder who will get the short straw of writing the ones aimed at what "UK citizens" need to do. They can say preparations need to be made, and be accused of scaremongering and talking the country down. Or they can say "All is going to be fine, no precautions needed" and hope the first month or so after a no-deal is not chaotic.

Or will that paper never actually get published? Perhaps, but the papers at least are going to be demanding it and referring back to this promise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 02:47 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 09:24 PM

Thing is, since the referendum, after which the pound collapsed, the pound has yet to achieve the rather modest level it attained five years ago. Clutching at straws again, Nige. Your attempts at deflection from the undeniably miserable picture are pathetic.

Not 'clutching at straws'. Correcting a comment which is totally inaccurate.
But I don't expect our soi disant "well educated scientist" to understand the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 02:50 PM

In fact, let's do their work for them. Why don't all our leavers here suggest 4 or 5 precautions the ordinary citizen should take to prepare for no deal, or explicitly declare no preparation is needed? Then we will know in a few short months if they were right.

I suggest remainers do not make such suggestions, because everyone knows we are all gloomy and miserable people, only interested in talking the country down. So let's just get the advice from the positive people here. Let's hope we don't just get a resounding silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 03:02 PM

Take unicorn-riding lessons? :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 03:21 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 02:50 PM
In fact, let's do their work for them. Why don't all our leavers here suggest 4 or 5 precautions the ordinary citizen should take to prepare for no deal, or explicitly declare no preparation is needed? Then we will know in a few short months if they were right.
I suggest remainers do not make such suggestions, because everyone knows we are all gloomy and miserable people, only interested in talking the country down. So let's just get the advice from the positive people here. Let's hope we don't just get a resounding silence.

I see no reason to take preparations against a possible 'no deal' situation. or explicitly declare no preparation is needed?. As things currently stand I think that 'no deal' may be the best outcome that we can hope for. The EU doesn't want to negotiate. They just poo poo any suggestions put forward by UK, without any counter-proposals.

But to say that remainers, who seem to fear such an outcome, should not comment seems to be avoiding the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 03:30 PM

Do I read that, Nigel, as saying you anticipate no disruption at all that affects the ordinary citizen should we have 'no-deal'? (By the way I just looked at some online bets and they are currently 1/1 for no-deal).   So a household should not prepare at all with things like making sure they have say 2 months supply of any medication more than whatever their normal precautions are?


That's why I suggested remainers should not comment. Had I suggested making sure you had several months stock of medication more than you would usually have, I would expect to be accused of project fear.

But never mind, I will take it that you do not recommend doing any such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 07:06 PM

The pound is in a parlous state, Nigel (you could do worse than review its last week's performance). Your attempt to highlight what may have been a slip by Raggytash (a grand lad who can speak for himself) is a blatant attempt at deflection from the fact that the pound has been well and truly nobbled by the prospect of brexit (cue Nige bravely telling us that it's all an "overdue correction") and has signally failed to regain what its value was even before the pre-referendum bulge. You are in total denial and are trying to use what you see as others' little slips to deflect us away from the dreadful mess that your party has got us into. And, if you want extra homework, let's see if you can back up your "soi-disant" compliment. Or is it just a bitter piece of copying from your brother-in-arms Iains... :-) Far better to think for yourself, for a change... Think you can manage?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 07:53 PM

"The EU doesn't want to negotiate"
That is unbelievably misleading and inward-looking
The EU doesn't want to negotiate a deal that is to the detriment of member states any more than Britain doesn't want to negotiate one that doesn't suit us (supposedly)
None of you have even responded to the damage that Britain crashing out of Europe will do to the Peace process or to the Irish economy both sides of the border
The Republic is now facing having to reorganize its economic tactics in case May bows to her fundamentalists - that is going to upset fairly cost British?Irish relations - the undoing of decades of hard work
Ironically, the party who has benefited most out of all this in Ireland is Sinn Fein - both sides of the border again
Having moved away from sectarianism, they have become a respectable party offering an alternative policy
Britain was forced to do a deal with the highly sectarian Jurassic Park DUP by bunging them a massive bribe
The Mayflies have behaved like fractious children trying throwing their toys about when they can't get their way
This whole affair has humiliated Britain internationally and continues to do so
That going to help "us to stand on our own two feet" - sure it is!

The only people to have benefited out of all this are the satirists - can't wait for 'Carry on Little Britain' or "Allo, Allo Boris"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 02:47 AM

This was reported in today's Sunday Times:

===

In a survey that will spark unease in Downing Street, the YouGov poll found that the public believes Boris Johnson, the former foreign secretary, is better placed to negotiate with Brussels and lead the Conservatives into the next election.

It highlights how voters are polarising, with growing numbers alienated from the two main parties. About 38% would vote for a new party on the right that was committed to Brexit, while 24% are prepared to support an explicitly far-right anti-immigrant, anti-Islam party.

One in three voters are prepared to back a new anti-Brexit centrist party.


===

24%. Depressing. But at least, as the article says, they seem determined to make the Tories unelectable: "Tory donors and allies of Nigel Farage, the former Ukip leader, are now plotting to raise £10m to set up a new hard-Brexit party — a move that could make it impossible for the Tories to win the next election"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 03:36 AM

It is very depressing DMcG. Not surprising though when you look at how far to the right even this forum has moved. The Nazi party was formed in 1919. It looks like we are doomed to walk the same path just 100 years later.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 03:38 AM

It is possible or maybe probable The uk are going to suffer cuts in wages, cuts in social welfare, Ireland will also problems,

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 04:41 AM

I see the well educated scientist has a marked deficiency in his mastery of the English language. He has to go to foreign climes to find the word he needs. Or is he simply trying to impress us with a little schoolboy French?

" let's see if you can back up your "soi-disant" compliment. Or is it just a bitter piece of copying from your brother-in-arms Iains... :-)

I suggest you check exchange rates over the last 10 years. The pound bounces up and down like a whore's drawers.

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=10Y

The more the EU machinations drive down the pound, the more competitive we become. Perhaps we should be thanking them!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 04:53 AM

David, The best deal for me includes my right of freedom of movement. The UK government is not acting in our interests,

Labour too. Freedom of movement will end. That ship has sailed.

DMcG, there are preparations to be made, but not at household level. Raab said on Marr today that the government is making all necessary preparations.

Does it, maybe, kind of feel like that risk that was taken with our children and our children’s children’s futures might not be paying off?
Sunday Times poll confirms my reply. The opposite is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 05:11 AM

So when Teresa May told the liaision committee May said: "Over August and September we are going to be releasing a number of technical notifications to set out what UK citizens and businesses need to do in a no deal scenario the answer from two of our leavers appers to be 'absolutely nothing'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 05:48 AM

So do these include paying 100% of the cost of dual nationality for all UK nationals who want it? Ensuring that the government will pay 100% of the costs for businesses to adapt, and to pay for tier 2 status compliance for all EU nationals, and pay 100% of the costs of tier 1 (entrepreneur) status compliance for all EU nationals in existing or future relationship with UK nationals? Will UK nationals who are denied relationships with EU nationals in the future be given the right to deny the right of UK nationals to live together in a relationship?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 05:58 AM

Iain Macwhirter in the Sunday Herald:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16369923.iain-macwhirter-no-deal-brexit-would-mean-no-more-uk/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 06:15 AM

New kid on the block
Trump's people and well-heeled right wingers in the US are raising money to assist the right in Britain to form an alternative Hard Exit Party led by Johnson and Farage
THE JACKBOOTS ARE ON THE MARCH
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 07:14 AM

No ship has sailed Keith, if you think that we are going to give up this fight you can think again.Freedom of movement is a hard won right for myself, and for citizens of this country. Especially our young people. To fail to defend that right is a betrayal of democracy and decency.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 07:22 AM

"Soi-disant" came from a Nigel post, actually. I didn't need no forrin climes. I got it from an actual Tory heartlander, from Little England itself! If you spent a bit more time reading threads and a bit less time looking for trouble we'd all find life a bit sweeter. Finally, before you deign to seek out MY deficiencies in English, perhaps you should remember that "well-educated" requires a hyphen. :-)

The pound collapsed immediately after the referendum because of the poll result. It did not collapse because of any EU machinations. There hadn't been time for any of those before the collapse took place. Unless you have a conspiracy theory to back up that claim, of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:11 AM

David,
To fail to defend that right is a betrayal of democracy and decency

Labour Party is also committed to ending freedom of movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: KarenH
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:12 AM

One aspect of post Brexit life will be racist behaviour such as that I witnessed the day after the referendum results were announced.

It is worrying that Steve Bannon has set out to support far right groups all over Europe. This is a guy who thinks that Tommy Robinson, whose supporters were giving Nazi salutes in London the other weekend, is all right. Bannon they say is the one who got Trump to pull out on the environmental agreements.


On the environment, the UK is in trouble with the EU because of the poor quality of its air, which doesn't bode well for things environmental after Brexit.


None of this is helped by the fact that Trump hates the EU, and is in any case fighting trade wars, not the best type to be looking for a trade 'deal' with I would have thought.


On jobs, a Brexiteer interviewed on radio 4 the other week said that they thought British manufacturing industry might vanish after Brexit but they thought it was a price worth paying, though it was not clear to me that they would be paying any of this price personally.


Some Brexit voters believed that money 'saved' by not sending it to the EU would be spent on the NHS and council services, but given a government when even the former minister for the NHS (Hunt) had expressed ideological opposition to the principles underlying the NHS and continuing 'austerity' policies which have led to the shameful situation of food banks in one of the 'richest' countries in the world.

But my feeling is that if living standards do plummmet after Brexit a government led by illiberal millionaires like Rees Moog won't be admitting that Brexit had anything to do with it.

The EU does have its problems, putting it mildly, and there is a democratic deficit in the way it works. But at least we have not had another European war.

But the problems around the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland seem to be a stumbling block and I do worry that once again there may be bloodshed. Kids from different Christian sects were rioting in Northern Ireland this month.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:26 AM

Kids from different Christian sects were rioting in Northern Ireland this month.

According to Gerry Adams, the violence was all dissident Republicans.
Political not religious.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gerry-adams-derry-riots-sinn-fein-explosive-device-northern-ireland-a8447151.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:36 AM

An excellent post, Karen. From your post:

."None of this is helped by the fact that Trump hates the EU, and is in any case fighting trade wars, not the best type to be looking for a trade 'deal' with I would have thought."

Yet our brave brexiteers live in eternal hope of making a great trade deal with this unstable man, a deal that so much hinges on. You'd have thought that this elementary point would be giving them the severe jitters. None so blind as the feeble of mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:41 AM

Get your sectarian facts right Keith
The PSNI say the dissident were to blame - adams just says they were involved
The Glorious Twelfth is Over give your sectarianism a rest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:45 AM

Keith,

I am not a Labour party member. If they are committed to end free movement then they are wrong, and they betray future generations and their internationalist background.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: KarenH
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:52 AM

Not usually one to quote the Times but from the Financial Times, this:


        
        Unionist and Nationalist parties in Northern Ireland made a rare joint statement calling for calm on Friday after six consecutive nights of rioting in Londonderry. The violence was blamed on dissident Irish republicans who reject Sinn Féin’s support for the Good Friday deal. Earlier in the week, pro-British loyalists were blamed for violence in Belfast on the eve of celebrations to mark the 1690 Battle of the Boyne, an event they hold dear.

The tension comes after 19 months in which the region has been without an executive after a breakdown in relations between the Democratic Unionists and Sinn Féin, putting pressure on the Good Friday peace pact of 1998 that ended decades of lethal sectarian conflict. The deadlock is made worse by Brexit. The DUP backs leaving the EU, Sinn Féin opposes and the British and Irish government are divided on the future status of the border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland. With no talks under way, a sharp escalation of tensions in the region’s biggest towns brought parties together this week to say society must “stand with those who maintain law and order and who protect all sides of our community”. The plea for calm was signed by the DUP, Sinn Féin and three smaller parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 11:08 AM

"The more the EU machinations drive down the pound, the more competitive we become."
At the sametime imports become dearer
what dopes the UK export these days? , it appears to import a lot of its food. I was under the impression that the UK exports very little compared to the 1950s

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 11:19 AM

Thank you Sandman, you saved the rest of us from pointing out the obvious to those that will not see the truth of the matter.

Now anyone got any good news?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 12:05 PM

The simple answer would be to apply a windfall tax on the benefit to exports through the weaker pound, and use these to provide direct government subsidies on imports. If the WTO do not allow it, then the government would then be directly responsible for the consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 12:20 PM

Two fascinating articles linking Brexit with Northern Ireland Peace
Jim Carroll
ONE
TWO

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 02:20 PM

David,
If they are committed to end free movement...

They are. It is not just the government. Good luck with the fight, but you are pretty much on your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 02:35 PM

No I am not Keith. Practically anyone who works in a University, or in high tech industry, or anyone who runs a business believe that free movement is a good thing. Which pretty much means anybody who contributes to the country rather than just sponging off it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 02:56 PM

Everyone is not committed to end free movement David
Labour have argued that, as the majority voted for Brexit, the decision must be adhered tpo The Tories have made it clear that Brexit is about stopping free movement in (immigration) so if that means nobody can move out - tough luck
Labour have dedicated themselves to continuing to work with Europe - the Brexit fundamentalists say that any co-operation with Europe is tantamount st staying in - three different stances for three different reasons
It is one of Keith's crassest crassisms to suggest everybody is omitted to end it - he bends the facts to fit his fanaticism quite a lot

Silence on the possibility of violence breaking out again in Ireland - now there's a surprise !
The only way these people continue to wave the flag for this ongoing farce is to pretend what is happening isn't
Rule Britannia my arseum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 04:19 PM

"Rule Britannia my arseum"
more idiocy off the resident clown!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 05:30 PM

A no deal would be catastrophic says former attorney general.

The former attorney general also warned of the "catastrophic" results of a 'no deal' Brexit scenario, saying medicines and food would quickly run out as "life as we understand it" would "grind to a halt".

Some good news I suppose. The Tory party are self deconstructing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 06:56 PM

Once more, for those who have so far failed to understand it. The suggested payment of £39bn by the UK is based on the EU negotiating a deal in 'good faith'. The EU have so far not done any negotiation, they have just said "we don't accept that, try again".

Article 50 states: 2. Negotiations under Article 50 TEU will be conducted in transparency and as a single package. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately. from Here. The £39bn payment is reliant on a negotiated settlement.

Unless, of course, the EU decide to totally ignore the rules that they themselves have put in place.

That same link also states: there will be no separate negotiations between individual Member States and the United Kingdom on matters pertaining to the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the Union. so there is no option for Leo Varadkar to 'put his oar in'. He can only allow the EU to negotiate on his behalf.

The UK may wish to reassure him on certain items, but are prevented from discussing the outcome with him by the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:48 PM

There's so much b*ll*cks talked about a 'Hard Brexit'. A 'Hard Brexit' is not a 'Hard Brexit' for ever. A 'Hard Brexit' is a good starting point. If we manage to get a 'Hard Brexit' then we can start to negotiate from there.

Those who favour 'Remain' exaggerate the EU's bargaining position. We who favour (Hard) Brexit appreciate the UK's true capacity for innovation, technical excellence and Human Rights. It suits some of those on the the Left to denigrate some or all of these.

Time will tell. I am optimistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 02:13 AM

Once more, for those who have so far failed to understand it. ...

Some sleight of hand (or wallet), there, Nigel. I agree, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. That includes the £39billion.

BUT, and this is Dominic's point in the linked article, that cannot sensibly interpreted as NO payment is due. If we leave with no deal it simply opens a fresh set of arguments about what we own for international agreements we agreed to fund before Brexit raised its ugly head. We have debts: of course we can choose not to pay them, just as I can choose not to pay my electricity bill. But neither refusal would be without consequence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 02:44 AM

So Stanron, as you are optimistic, you have not objection to personally paying for the impact during the interregnum until you utopia is acheived for the rest of the population?? That is most kind of you. I will let you know later where to leave the envelope.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 02:52 AM

"more idiocy off the resident clown!"
And once more vacuously childish insult from our resident wannabe bully who appears to believe his insults are suitable responses to answers to serious points
You have had opinions, you have linked information, you have a developing crisis of a decision having to be taken in twelve weeks time by a totally divided leadership who have to force proposals though Parliament by sending 'heavies' to 'persuade' members to to their way and make them an 'offer they can't refuse'
The Government itself if only managing to hang on by the skin of their teeth with the assistance of a terrorist-linked party whose policies are neanderthal and whose leader is herself under examination over a massive internal scandal and whose administration is under pressure from many thousands of Irish women seeking the same rights as those in the rest of the UK and in the Republic.
   
Yesterday, former Prime Minister John Major stated publicly that a second referendum is now a logical option for Brexit.
If Britain ever exits Europe it will have to skulk out by the back door, a wonderful incentive to restructure the country by new investments
Even that has been thrown into disarray by Trump's overtures to Putin and North Korea to construct their own version of an E.U.

If this was "idiocy" Iains, it could be wiped out of existence with a few well-chosen words - way beyond your capabilities, obviously
I away your next stream of childish insults
Some people really never do learn
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 03:00 AM

You don't get it Stanron do you. The UK doesn't have a "capacity for innovation, technical excellence and Human Rights". These things are not within the capacity of a country. They are within the capacity of highly educated and skilled people. And highly educated and skilled people are incredibly mobile. Th eUK at p[resent benefits from that through people from the EU moving here to supply those skills. But now you say you don't want Freedom Of Movement, you don't want these highly skilled people. Moreover British people with these skills are also highly mobile. And with the loss of Horizon2020, Erasmus, Euratom, the European Medicines Agency and a whole host of other things, what incentive is there for highly mobile, highly skilled British people to stay. They will be off, obtaining citizenships elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 03:29 AM


Time will tell

Indeed. Rees-Mogg told Channel 4 news that it may take 50 years before you can properly assess the effects of Brexit. That is approaching the time my grandson would be retiring (on current rules).

In the meantime, what was May's line about risking the future of our children and our children's children...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 04:03 AM

Jim and Dave,
It is one of Keith's crassest crassisms to suggest everybody is omitted to end it

I said both Labour and Tories are committed to it and that is a simple statement of fact.

Guardian, "Labour would end free movement "
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/24/labour-vows-to-rip-up-and-rethink-brexit-white-paper

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 04:12 AM

David,
But now you say you don't want Freedom Of Movement, you don't want these highly skilled people.

Of course we do, and will continue to attract them.
We just will no longer give preference to European people, and we can choose for ourselves who comes by the skills they offer, not their nationality.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 04:18 AM

"Yesterday, former Prime Minister John Major stated publicly that a second referendum is now a logical option for Brexit."

That statement has as much impact on the real   world as the dronings of bono!

Do you really think his opinions are worth posting? It says precious little for the quality of your ramblings. He is an old has been, even older than clot corbyn.

OOOOOH dear!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 04:57 AM

No we will not have the choice. Who we can and cannot choose will be dictated to us by the Home Office. And in my case I choose that my partner will live with me and work for me as my PA. If you are not going to grant my right to choose then you are a hypocrite. You can choose whether you want an EU national to live with you or work for you, that is your choice, and I will not dictate to you otherwise as long as your choice does not impinge on my human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 05:04 AM

Yet our brave brexiteers live in eternal hope of making a great trade deal with this unstable man, a deal that so much hinges on. You'd have thought that this elementary point would be giving them the severe jitters. None so blind as the feeble of mind...

Just to clarify, the UK would like a trade deal with the US. This is not a trade deal with Trump. He is just the present, temporary, president.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 05:08 AM

And further to that, SPB, the country can only choose to admit from those who choose to come here. So if an organisation moves from the UK to the EU, the applicants will choose to go there. If the UK appears to be unwelcoming - and I fully admit much of the EU is also unwelcoming - they will be inclined to look to some other country. It is not by any means just the UK that does the choosing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 05:09 AM

No we will not have the choice.

Yes we will. We currently have to let in anyone from EU skilled or not.
In future we can choose who comes, and no preference for Europeans over people from Asia, Africa or anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 05:15 AM

Yes, Trump is a temporary president, for the next couple of years. I think it likely he wins a second term.

Trade deals are signed by the President, who can decline to sign them, at least in theory and with this guy probably in practice if he so chooses.

Are you happy to wait perhaps 6 years to sign a deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 05:26 AM

Just as a reminder, it is the 22nd amendmebt to the US constitution. There have been numerous attempts to overturn it and I for one would not be in the least surprised if Trump sought to do that should he win a second term.

Here is a clip from wikipedia on some previous attempts.

The first efforts in Congress to repeal the 22nd Amendment were undertaken in 1956, only five years after the amendment's ratification. According to the Congressional Research Service, over the ensuing half-century (through 2008) 54 joint resolutionsseeking to repeal the two-term presidential election limit were introduced (primarily in the House); none were given serious consideration.[1] Between 1997 and 2013, José E. Serrano introduced nine resolutions (one per Congress, all unsuccessful) to repeal the amendment.[32]

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 05:29 AM

Sorry: i should have said it is the 22nd amendment that limits Presidents to two terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 05:36 AM

"OOOOOH dear!!!"
Still on an intellectual high, I see
And still not a single response
Perhaps May should enlist you as an advisor
It's about the level she's operating at at present
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 06:30 AM

"OOOOOH dear!!!"
It is the only sensible response to the bulk of your postings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 07:16 AM

"Yes we will. We currently have to let in anyone from EU skilled or not.
In future we can choose who comes, and no preference for Europeans over people from Asia, Africa or anywhere else."

Please define 'we'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 07:47 AM

Maybe Trump will win another term, then, in six years' time, the next President will put us to the back of the queue. :-)


Actually, I'm being serious...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:18 AM

We trade with the US already, even without a 'Trade Deal'. It is better trade in terms of trade balance than the trade we do with the EU. If we end up with 'No Deal' we will be able to trade with the EU on similar terms. The main difference will be that we can choose to impose current EU tariffs on other foreign business or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:37 AM

According to the Guardian, Jeremy Hunt has said the UK public will blame the EU for a no-deal Brexit.

I imagine he is right. No matter the vast numbers of leavers who have been saying "Just walk Away Now' since the referendum. No matter that had we voted to remain we would not have a no-deal. No matter if we had competant negotators we would probably not have no-deal. No matter that the EU has been clear and solid in its stance and we have just chosen to believe they have to change to suit us.

No, the key Leaver's principle will be, as usual, its all Europe's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:44 AM

Nigel, I don't want a trade deal with the US unless they adopt EU food hygiene, Health and Safety, Animal Welfare and Environmental standards. Speak for yourself.

Keith, no, we will not continue to attract them. We are already losing non-EU as well as EU staff as the true nature of the British population becomes apparent to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:47 AM

D McG, there is a section of the population and a large section of the British press who would blame the EU in that situation. But this needs to be countered, and if he was a responsible person Jeremy Hunt would be helping to do this. If he doesn't, we must, by whatever means necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 09:32 AM

"It is better trade in terms of trade balance than the trade we do with the EU."

Too vague. Give us the numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 09:55 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Too vague. Give us the numbers.

If you don't believe it no amount of numbers will convince you. If you do believe it what do you want the numbers for?

You could, of course, do battle with a search engine yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:16 AM

From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:44 AM
Nigel, I don't want a trade deal with the US unless they adopt EU food hygiene, Health and Safety, Animal Welfare and Environmental standards. Speak for yourself.

Why ever not? The fact that they will offer to sell some goods that you don't wish to buy does not mean they can insist on you buying them. Vegans can (and do) still shop at Tesco's even though they may find some of their products distasteful.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:24 AM

You have a very short memory, Nigel. I've given the comparative trade stats already, and fairly recently. Our trade with the EU is far larger and far more crucial to our economy than trade with the US. Of course, you may wish to argue the red herring point about deficits ...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:41 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:24 AM

You have a very short memory, Nigel. I've given the comparative trade stats already, and fairly recently. Our trade with the EU is far larger and far more crucial to our economy than trade with the US. Of course, you may wish to argue the red herring point about deficits ...

And what comment was that in response to?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:51 AM


Why ever not? The fact that they will offer to sell some goods that you don't wish to buy does not mean they can insist on you buying them

That is a very weak argument Nigel. We have agreed standards on animal welfare and food quality. We might choose to change them of course, but at the moment they are what they are. The idea we can just import things that breach these standards and leave it up to people to choose what they like would apply to any sort of regulation at all. Why insist electrical goods are safe? Let them go into the shops and people can choose not to buy them. Why not allow lead painted toys alongside safe ones?

The standards are what they are. If the country, via its government, changes them fine. Until then, nothing breaching the standards should be admitted.

There is a very strong opposition to lowering food standards, as far as polls can be trusted. The government is currently pledging not to lower the food standards, If it then chose to do so without consulting in any way such as via a manifesto, it would have created yet another reason to vote against it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:54 AM

Before you came back and make out I am making claims about safety, I am not. The examples I happened to pick were about safety, but it could have been many other things: advertising standards for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 02:40 PM

David,
Keith, no, we will not continue to attract them.

Reuters ONS last week,
“The data suggest that the UK is still an attractive country, but its allure for EU migrants has declined considerably over the past couple of years,” she said.
“It’s not all about Brexit: EU net migration was unusually high just before the referendum, and it’s likely that some of the decline would have happened anyway even if the UK had not voted to leave,” she added.
Overall net immigration to Britain should be viewed as broadly stable, the ONS said. The increase in net immigration in 2017 was probably due to an undercount of foreign students in 2016."
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-immigration/eu-immigration-to-britain-falls-to-five-year-low-ons-idUKKBN1K60VP

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 04:22 PM

It's a good job "Weer taking are cuntry back - looks like "Weer giving a lot of other stuff away"...

http://www.eurolabour.org.uk/no-deal-tory-brexit-impact-uk-holidaymakers-summer-2019

Any good news about BrexShit, anybody...??

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 04:26 PM

" Until then, nothing breaching the standards should be admitted."
Anything breaching the standards is liable to confiscation and the consumer has additional protection offered by the consumer rights bill, should goods not be of the requisite standard. Over time the web of protection offered to consumers and workers covering every aspect of their lives has become ever more protective.
Do you anticipate these protections being rolled back as a result of brexit.?

much of this legislation originated in the UK long before the EU was even a gleam in someone's eye:

The factory act of 1802
The factories act 1833 and HM factory Inspectorate

etc, etc,
and more recently the Cullen report on Piper Alpha 1990 that impacted oil and gas exploration worldwide.
The UK was a world leader in protective legislation both before and after membership of the EU.
Why would brexit change this? The very idea is risible!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 04:51 PM

Do you anticipate these protections being rolled back as a result of brexit.?


I consider it possible. Nigel has already indicated he would be happy to do so on foodstuffs and in every case there is a trade off between those protections (aka red tape) and business profits.   

The balance could change any time, and is more likely to do in a country in its own than one bound into a larger group.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 05:54 PM

The balance could change any time, and is more likely to do in a country in its own than one bound into a larger group.

It's good to know the EU have got our back on this one. There again there was the horse meat scandal in 2013 where the meat originated in Poland, and passed through France, before being identified in UK & Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 06:01 PM

There are always people who want to cheat the system, Nigel. That's real life. It does not alter my point at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:34 PM

Clutching at straws, Nigel. As ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 02:12 AM

Actually, Steve it is worse than that. The particular straw grasped at is in favour of the EU and against the UK being separated.

before being identified in UK & Ireland

That's perhaps careless phrasing. The horsemeat was identified in Ireland (10 Dec 2012). The UK was not involved. Sample were then sent to Germany and Brussels labs - again the UK was not yet involved. Once the presence had been confirmed, the UK was informed on 14 Jan 2013. Whereupon it undertook the important but essentially drudge work of checking lots of products.

This is a good example of the EU working together, taking advantage of the fact that not everyone has to test everything, as long as the results are shared.

Now suppose we get to a no-deal. Have we strengthened the inspectorates so they can do all the testing of everything themselves now? No. The horse meat was being sold in the UK, but we were not detecting it. That didn't really matter too much if, as part of the EU, someone somewhere was testing it. From now on, it has to be us.

Or, of course, we can let the standards drop, in practice if not in law.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 03:17 AM

Actually it is a better example than you seem to think.
Why did we not test it automatically?
Possibly just because its source was the EU, which some would try to persuade us have better standards than ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 03:43 AM

There was also the contaminated Dutch eggs last year.
Guardian,
"Sainsbury’s, Morrisons, Waitrose and Asda withdraw items as FSA says 700,000 contaminated eggs have reached Britain"
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/10/700000-eggs-linked-to-eu-scare-exported-to-britain-watchdog-says

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 04:01 AM

You really want to know why we don't test everything automatically all the time?

Resource limits.

Why did we not test that specific case? I don't have that detail but quite possibly because we knew the relevant tests were being done by an Irish lab we trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 04:07 AM

DMcG, It would not be appropriate to waste tax payers money duplicating work being carried out collaboratively in the EU. it would be far better to just let contaminated products just to go on sale and wait until people become seriously ill or die before withdrawing the products.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 05:25 AM

I see the remainiacs are being very cute with their responses concerning the horsemeat scandal in Ireland.
1)The suspect burgers were produced at two Irish processing plants, Liffey Meats and Silvercrest Foods, and one plant in the UK, Dalepak Hambleton.One burger from the Silvercrest meat processing factory in Co Monaghan was found to contain 29% horse meat.By 16 January 2013 four subsidiaries of ABP had been accused of supplying adulterated meat. They were Silvercrest in County Monaghan, Dalepak in North Yorkshire, Freshlink in Glasgow, ABP Nenagh in County Tipperary, Ireland and Dairy Crest, Rossington.
2)In the UK Of 27 beef burger products tested, 37% were positive for horse DNA, and 85% were positive for pig DNA. Of 31 beef meal products tested, 21 were positive for pig DNA but all were negative for horse DNA. 19 salami products were tested but were negative for all foreign DNA.[13] Of the 37% of beef products tested positive for horse DNA, Tesco's inexpensive Everyday Value Beef Burgers tested at 29.1%. All other reported brands had less than 0.3% horse DNA. These products originated from Liffey Meats and Silvercrest Foods in Ireland and Dalepak Hambleton food processing plant in the United Kingdom. Trace amounts of horse DNA were also found in raw ingredients imported from Spain and the Netherlands.

A simple analysis of the situation suggests that Criminal activity occurred somewhere in the long supply chain. The EU checks   on the supply chain documentation and verification of stated material failed miserably. Ireland imported dodgy meat and sold the resulting burgers both nationally and exported to the UK, before the adulteration was picked up.
There are no winners in this fiasco, it merely highlights the fact that despite vetting and checking if criminals wish to be criminals, for a time they will be.
Would the UK checks be more stringent were the meat originating outside the UK? The answer would have to be yes, because everyone relies on everyone else in the EU and engenders a very false sense of security. Theoretically meat movement within the EU should carry documentation ensuring accountability every step of the process from farmgate to plate. Could the EU deity perhaps have feet of clay?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 05:37 AM

Utter waffle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 06:36 AM

Would the UK checks be more stringent were the meat originating outside the UK? The answer would have to be yes

And the costs in staff, buildings and equipment would also be higher, don't you agree?

Let me know when you see the budget specificially allocated for this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 06:43 AM

gate to plate

https://www.gs1ie.org/retail/food/food-traceability/beef-traceability-with-gs1-standards.html

Care to point out where the waffle is?
Is it the ex teacher
ex union troublemaker,
well educated scientist
botanist
or simply the Shaw bullshit artist speaking?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 08:59 AM

You're sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 10:55 AM

i'm assuming that when we have left the EU there will be no british troops on the european mainland - that has to be good news if only for the young women in cyprus!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 11:07 AM

Pete - tut-tut! Cyprus isn't a part of the European mainland, it's an island in the Mediterranean! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 11:27 AM

wot abaht gibralter?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 11:27 AM

"that has to be good news if only for the young women in cyprus!"
I SHOULD IMAGINE SO
MIND YOU _ THEY WERE PUNISHED
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 11:33 AM

i'm assuming that when we have left the EU there will be no british troops on the european mainland - that has to be good news if only for the young women in cyprus!

Under the current Army 2020 plan, British Forces Germany (BFG) will be re-located back to the UK by 2020 – many units have already returned.

Nowt to do with brexit.

Cyprus an island
definition of island: a piece of land surrounded by water.

I think some posting are in dire need of remedial classes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 12:20 PM

d'oh! cyprus -of course - but it wasn't my point really. (can you get classes in decent manners, iain?)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 12:23 PM

Pete,
i'm assuming that when we have left the EU there will be no british troops on the european mainland

Wrong assumption. We are not leaving Nato, and Europe needs British troops.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 12:35 PM

Theresa May takes personal charge of Brexit talks

That's an interesting move. I think it makes leaving without a deal less likely, but what do others think of the change?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 12:58 PM

why would any other EU country 'need' british military? or more pertinently, american bases?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 02:04 PM

the United States still maintains nearly 800 military bases in more than 70 countries and territories abroad—from giant “Little Americas” to small radar facilities. Britain, France and Russia, by contrast, have about 30 foreign bases combined.

Why? best ask TPTB!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 02:49 PM

the whole world is run for the benefit of the american military/industrial machine. we also spend obscene amounts of money buying weapons to attack other nations. it's all absurd and unnecessary. i'm looking forward to labour getting rid of nuclear weapons and us joining the vast majority of the worlds' nations in working for peace

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 03:26 PM

We're risking getting our prisoners executed in the US and say we don't mind because they committed horrendous crimes such as beheading captives on video. Every year Saudi Arabia beheads hundreds of people in public squares yet we're selling them dozens of fighter jets that will be used, among other things, to bomb Yemeni civilians back to the Stone Age. Chimes with what you're saying, Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 03:46 PM

yep - it's certainly a good time to be making friends with our neighbours

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 04:26 PM

Like Putin for instance?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 05:54 PM

Oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 07:09 PM

yes putin, why not? jaw, jaw etc.....and he certainly makes more sense than the american

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 07:35 PM

I seem to recall a poster on here was somewhat dubious about the need to stockpile medicines in case of a "no deal Brexit"

It would seem that the current Health Secretary Matt Hancock has advised the NHS to do just that.

Stockpiles of Blood products, medical supplies, vaccines, medical devices and clinical consumables are to be created.

Just fills you with confidence doesn't it (not)

Could a kind person link to the article in the Guradian "NHS preparing to stockpile drugs for no Brexit deal"

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 08:15 PM

For crying out loud!

It seems that the Chancellor has earmarked 3 billions pounds for contingency planning.

Not for goods and services themselves, just for planning the supply of those goods and services!

Again, could some kind person link to the article in the Guardian "Raab admits planing to secure food supply for no deal Brexit"

Any GOOD news anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Monique
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 08:43 PM

Raab admits planing to secure food supply for no deal Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:37 AM

One of my friends has a song in which he says of his life "he played a poor hand well" and I have to say the I think May did that really well on the last day of Parliament.

1. She has made Raab responsible for producing some 70 or so essays on "Why a no deal could be bad for you", many to be issued before Parliament returns.


2. She has taken control of the EU negotiations with a government approved proposal as a starting point, but not and end point (see Hunt's comments)

3. Even if the fabled 48 letters arrive, there can be no vote in Parliament until the next sitting.

4. She has said we will be under all EU rules until the end of transition and, as with the vote, there can be no effective protest until Parliament bext sits.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:55 AM

"Wrong assumption. We are not leaving Nato"
NOT IF YOUR FRIEND DONALD DUCK HAS HIS WAY

"and Europe needs British troops."
SURE IT DOES !!!

THis Brexit thing eally is a REALLY IS A.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:11 AM

I'd agree with the mystery bit, Jim, but magical..? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:48 AM

so now we are planning for shortages of medicines and food. i don't think this was what people voted for - it is utter lunacy. do you brexiteers have no doubts still? or shame?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:50 AM

Europe does not need any troops. We really should be working towards a world where vast military expenditures are not necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:58 AM

Pete,
why would any other EU country 'need' british military? or more pertinently, american bases?

Ask them Pete, because they are quite clear that they do.
Could it be that they know more about the threats they face than you do?
Or even you, Jim, Dave and Steve together!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:16 AM

Re other thread,
The sad thing is that you may well succeed in getting discussion suppressed here.

Sometimes I hate being right all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:41 AM

"Europe does not need any troops."

So all the missions listed below are an irrelevancy and should be cancelled?

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/430/military-and-civilian-missions-and-operations_en

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:55 AM

and of course a vital UN peacekeeping role.


https://ippjournal.wordpress.com/2016/03/17/eu-contribution-to-un-peacekeeping/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:05 AM

of course we need offices in other countries to promote cultural links and to help out, eg scots in estonia who need some advice on residency/passport matters. i just object when any country takes weapons, or sells arms, to another country. it's just such a colossal waste of money that would be far better used in other ways. sadly, we give far too much respect to politicians and religious leaders who lead us and succeed by driving policies to do with demonising and scapegoating our fellow citizens in other regions. they are imagination and compassion free - and seemingly a different species from all the good people we meet every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:16 AM

Well said, Pete. Sadly it was the politicians demonising and scapegoating immigrants to the UK that got us into this brexit mess in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:31 AM

of course - and many years of right wing press. just recently, i've become so irritated and bored by these sort of discussions on real non-events like tory brexit policies or labour's so-called anti-semite problems. we are just (semi) intellectually fiddling about with these trivial matters while the world literally burns and is at war.

we need to get serious about striving for peace and compassion and stop giving attention to politicians and the wealthy who are motivated by greed and spite. i like the idea that left and right don't matter so much these days and it is now a struggle between open/closed or positive and negative people. (here in cliche city!) are you a part of the problem or the solution?

you may say i'm a dreamer.....but don't bother calling me a hippy as i take it as a compliment. (but iain - don't use that disgusting term 'l.....d' again - anywhere)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:53 AM

Nothing to disagree with there, Pete. The world is getting smaller by the minute and the sooner people start to get on with each other the better it will be.

Even if they say you're a dreamer. You're not the only one :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 09:30 AM

Well said, Pete. Sadly it was the politicians demonising and scapegoating immigrants to the UK that got us into this brexit mess in the first place.
Ah, the Jim Carroll viewpoint.

It has been pointed out here many times that immigration was not the sole, or even the main, reason for wishing to leave the EU, an alliance of countries pushing for ever-closer integration, and meaning that the UK would no longer be able to be a sovereign state, was, for many, the reason to exit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 09:57 AM

Ah, the Jim Carroll viewpoint.

No. The viewpoint of many, including me.

I believe you when you say that your reasons were not to do with immigration but for many others that was the main reason to vote leave. That, in my opinion, is what tipped the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:17 AM

The sad thing is that you may well succeed in getting discussion suppressed here.

It's no mystery why they get those discussions suppressed - it's the same reason cockroaches scurry away to hide when a light comes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:17 AM

Tommyrot. First, of course no-one can precisely quantify the effects on the final result of the various issues that arose during the referendum campaign. But only a clown with his head in the sand would deny that immigration was either at the top or very close to the top of the list of crucial factors that swung the vote. All through the campaign we had talk of foreigners taking our jobs, driving down wages, of our taking back control of our borders, of immigration out of control, of the NHS overwhelmed, and then that Farage poster, not least. The vote was closer than 52-48 and you're trying to tell us that, without the immigration issue constantly to the fore, remain wouldn't have won handsomely?

As for your tired old ever-closer union guff, trotted tiredly out yet again, it's a complete illusion. Every state in the EU wants to keep its own distinct national identity. The vast majority of domestic laws in EU countries have nothing to do with the EU. Larger states such as the UK have the power of veto over any suggested fundamental political changes. Almost all our laws in this country, and the overwhelming bulk of our GDP, are our own sovereign business and cannot be touched by the EU and that can't be changed if we say no. For a change, why don't you instead condemn the attacks on parliamentary sovereignty by Theresa May who had to be taken to court to be forced to allow parliament a say on Article 50, and whose every major action is done in the interests of your party instead of that of the country?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:21 AM

Truth is stranger than fiction, bobad. You could try asking the mods who got the discussion closed down instead of guessing wrongly and attempting to smear. Over and out from me on that particular matter, which shouldn't be in this thread at all, should it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:33 AM

" it's the same reason cockroaches scurry away to hide when a light comes on."

Very nearly caused me to spill my coffee! You have a way with words.

Twas my understanding the mods do want they need to do without discussing it with self appointed arbiters.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:38 AM

Twas my understanding the mods do want they need to do without discussing it with self appointed arbiters.

Well, when one is a fellow traveler............

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:38 AM

Pete,
. i just object when any country takes weapons, or sells arms, to another country

Do you not believe that nations without an arms industry should have the right to buy the means to defend themselves?
You mention Estonia. They are in fear of the Russian army on their border. They buy defence equipment, and welcome British and other armies to stand with them against the threat.

BBC, "But today, sitting less than 150km (93 miles) from the Russian border, it is the base for a Nato battle group - here, according to the alliance, to reassure the Estonians and to demonstrate Nato's solidarity to Moscow.
The decision to deploy Nato troops eastwards - the closest its bases have ever come to Russian territory - came in the wake of Russia's seizure of Crimea and its military operations in eastern Ukraine. Many of the alliance's northern and central European members were alarmed, especially the Baltic republics, whose territory, like that of Ukraine, was once part of the Soviet Union."

"The UK commands the Nato battle group in Estonia. It is based on a single British infantry battalion - currently 5 Rifles - with Warrior armoured vehicles, and it incorporates a company of French infantry. They are supported by a small number of British Challenger and French Leclerc tanks. There is also a small complement of artillery, engineers and other supporting arms."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40554104

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:43 AM

Tommyrot. First, of course no-one can precisely quantify the effects on the final result of the various issues that arose during the referendum campaign. But only a clown with his head in the sand would deny that immigration was either at the top or very close to the top of the list of crucial factors that swung the vote. All through the campaign we had talk of foreigners taking our jobs, driving down wages, of our taking back control of our borders, of immigration out of control, of the NHS overwhelmed, and then that Farage poster, not least. The vote was closer than 52-48 and you're trying to tell us that, without the immigration issue constantly to the fore, remain wouldn't have won handsomely?
If your appraisal of the 'Leave' vote is correct, what were the 'Remain' voters voting against?
If you are correct that "immigration was either at the top or very close to the top of the list of crucial factors" then can we assume that you, and those who voted with you, were already aware of this, and voting against Brexit on that basis?
If so, taking immigration out of the debate would have reduced voter turn-out on both sides.
In which case your idea of how this would have affected the outcome is groundless.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:40 PM

https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/publications/report/2017/eu-member-states/statutory-minimum-wages-in-the-eu-2017

Explanations for internal EU immigration/emigration at a glance.

Like anything else in life: follow the money.
“Migration and poverty are undoubtedly the two most painful consequences experienced by a society in protracted crisis conditions,”

The number of Greeks aged 15-64 who left the country since 2008 is 427,000. In 2013 alone, 100,000 people migrated, tripling the yearly average until then. The phenomenon continued with unabated intensity in 2014 and further exacerbated in the first half of 2015.

The Greek emigration wave for work abroad is still in progress and does not appear to be slowing down as unemployment remains at 25%.


Change in statutory minimum wages in real terms between 1 January 2010 and 1 January 2017
Greece -24.3%
Bulgaria +86%

and in their madness the EU expects all these disparate economies to work under a single currency. So far the sole winner is Germany.
Thank God we kept independence with the pound.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:45 PM

No, Nigel. Immigration is only a cause of concern to those who are against it. There are no radical pro immigration bodies in this country as far as I know. On the other hand people like Farage, organisations like UKIP and the popular media are all examples of radical anti immigration bodies. Take those and their supporters out of the equation and the remain vote remains the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:05 PM

Here is a clip from Wikipedia
==================================
Sovereignty

On the day of the referendum Lord Ashcroft's polling team questioned 12,369 people who had completed voting.[6] This poll produced data that showed that 'Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the European Union was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”.

'''

Immigration[edit]

Lord Ashcroft's election day poll of 12,369 voters also discovered that 'One third (33%) [of leave voters] said the main reason was that leaving "offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders."'[8]

Immediately prior to the referendum data from Ipsos-Mori showed that immigration/migration was the most cited issue when Britons were asked 'What do you see as the most/other important issue facing Britain today?' with 48% of respondents mentioning it when surveyed.[9]

==================================
Reading this from the bottom up: Immediately before the referendum 48% mentioned immigration as a major issue and in the analysis of the votes one third mentioned it as their main reason for voting as they did.   That is a very substantial figure, even if it the case that 49% gave sovereignty as the main reason. So the initial evidence would seem to suggest that the 33% could well have been the deciding factor.

It is also the case that there are social reasons people do not always give the honest answer when surveyed, so the figures could be closer than the 33-49% would suggest. There is no need to dwell on that though, since 33% is already substantial.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:11 PM

Well done, two Daves. Well contorted, Nigel. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:28 PM

Firstly Thanks Monique for posting the relevant link.

Secondly, Well, well, well. Almost a full day has past and not one of the leavers has mentioned the report that the UK Government is making plans to stockpile medical supplies and food.

I suppose even they realise this is not the good news that some of us have been looking for.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:52 PM

This was discussed last night and it was pointed out that some medicine cannot be stockpiled. For example, there are radioisotopes used in some treatments and investigations with a half life of roughly 2 hours. That can't be stockpiled.

(When I was 40 or so I was investigated a potential lung issue - there was none. But the radiologist/lung specialist asked me is I had any questions about using one of these isotopes, presumably anticipating the need to settle fears. Instead I asked him how they compensated for the fact that with a half life of 2 hours it would have decayed significantly during the 1 hour investigation itself and how did they compensate for this effect? We had a really interesting chat.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:54 PM

This was discussed last night ON NEWSNIGHT. Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:13 PM

Steve,
. You could try asking the mods who got the discussion closed down instead of guessing wrongly and attempting to smear.

No need. They always close threads full of personal attack.
After my last post you and your pack gave up all pretence of discussion and just posted personal abuse.
It worked as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:13 PM

@Iains:

"The Greek emigration wave for work abroad is still in progress and does not appear to be slowing down as unemployment remains at 25%.

Change in statutory minimum wages in real terms between 1 January 2010 and 1 January 2017
Greece -24.3%
Bulgaria +86%

and in their madness the EU expects all these disparate economies to work under a single currency. So far the sole winner is Germany."

No, it would seem that Greeks, and indeed Bulgarians, who have the nous and get up and go to seek opportunities elsewhere are also winners.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:23 PM

nigel perhaps you move in circles where people can rationalise away their reasons for voting brexit with spurious worries about expanding EU or vacuous 'sovereignty' Where i live in west cumbria everyone i talk to on the subject will talk about foreigners and usually 'muslims' They do not have the sophisticated, learned excuses of shy racists, or feel the need to disguise their views like pale,sick tories do.   

get real, the brexit vote was won as a result of racism peddled by newspapers, ukip and the tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:31 PM

He knows it Pete, but he daren't admit it because it would show him up as, at the very least, an apologist for racists.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:56 PM

"No, it would seem that Greeks, and indeed Bulgarians, who have the nous and get up and go to seek opportunities elsewhere are also winners. "

There are 2 ways of looking at that. Is the driver ambition, or desperation. Greek unemployment being 25% and slashed budgets for social welfare would suggest the latter.
That is not the type of brain drain that Britain experienced in previous decades. Perhaps for the UK one could be unkind and say it was all about greed, not need.
A major distinction!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:21 PM

I wonder what the moderators views on calling people twats and leftards, using a person's age as an insult, talking down to people, insulting their intelligence and twisting the words of others are?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:41 PM

Hello said the pot to the kettle!
People in glass houses.......
Mathew 7:5

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:55 PM

iain -as far as i know you are the only person on here to use the term lef...d. twice and including a definition of what you meant. i work with disabled adults and know very well to what you were referring. had i used a term like that at work i would quite rightly be disciplined. as a union rep i would not ever defend a member who had used it.

and your general insulting and patronising attitude?|it's shit.

mods?

mind you, i think it's horrible when footballers crowd the ref waving red cards

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:30 PM

The term shows your contempt towards people with learning disability, and those who choose to put working towards the benefit of society above increasing wealth by climbing on the backs of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:39 PM

It really is a laugh a minute reading all this wild conjecture about what got a thread closed. The conspiracy theorists here haven't a clue as to what really happened and are making complete arses of themselves. It's also quite amusing to contemplate the off-topic ditherings of our Hertford compatriot, who, in different times, is very much given to bollocking all and sundry about going off-topic, especially if it's in one of his own sacred Israel threads or something or other. Get over yourselves, chaps. It's gone. Done and dusted. Rung down the curtain and gone to join the choir invisible. It's fallen off its perch (to which it wasn't properly nailed). It has ceased to be. Shuffled off its mortal coils. It's an ex-thread - and it's all your fault. Nothing to do with me or anybody else who you do charmingly and boringly call "usual suspects." This one 'ere is a brexit thread. Let's go with that idea, shall we? Adelante! Excelsior! We live in serious times, so try to be serious!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:49 PM

Here is a clip from Wikipedia
==================================
Sovereignty

On the day of the referendum Lord Ashcroft's polling team questioned 12,369 people who had completed voting.[6] This poll produced data that showed that 'Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the European Union was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”.

''

Immigration[edit]

Lord Ashcroft's election day poll of 12,369 voters also discovered that 'One third (33%) [of leave voters] said the main reason was that leaving "offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders."'[8]

Immediately prior to the referendum data from Ipsos-Mori showed that immigration/migration was the most cited issue when Britons were asked 'What do you see as the most/other important issue facing Britain today?' with 48% of respondents mentioning it when surveyed.[9]

==================================
Reading this from the bottom up: Immediately before the referendum 48% mentioned immigration as a major issue and in the analysis of the votes one third mentioned it as their main reason for voting as they did.   That is a very substantial figure, even if it the case that 49% gave sovereignty as the main reason. So the initial evidence would seem to suggest that the 33% could well have been the deciding factor.

It is also the case that there are social reasons people do not always give the honest answer when surveyed, so the figures could be closer than the 33-49% would suggest. There is no need to dwell on that though, since 33% is already substantial.

No attempt to link to the page, but it appears to be from Here

If it is, it represents a very one-sided view.
Immediately before the referendum 48% mentioned immigration as a major While that looks as if it might refer to the views of the leave voters, it doesn't actually say that, and was from a poll before the vote. So will never tell us what percentage of leave/remain voters thought immigration an important point prior to the referendum.

Elsewhere in the Wikipedia article it has a heading for: Lies and misinformation which mentions only the discussion of the "side of the bus", and 'leave' dealing in "post-truth politics".
In a balanced article the heading of "Lies and misleading information" would also have covered the 'facts' put forward by Project Fear about the immediate post-referendum Armageddon which was expected if we voted to leave (but which failed to appear). No surprise this is not mentioned.
As such it seems the Wikipedia article is not a lot of use taking the discussion here any further forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 05:21 PM

All I relied on from the Wikipedia article was the two polls. If you prefer to take the figures from his actual poll feel free. They are the same; they were just more convenient to copy from Wikipedia, but explore the original in detail at your leasure.

I am well aware of the limitations of Wikipedia as a source, never fear. But if the figures are right and I am not relying on the commentary, I will use it.

I remember a couple of lines from a novel: "You are quoting Snoopy the Dog, I believe." "I will quote the truth wherever I find it, thank you."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 06:41 PM

Hmmm............. still no comment about stockpiling Medical supplies and food ........

Good news anyone ???????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 06:46 PM

Well, the trouble with Project Fear, as many of us said at the time, was that they held very few cards. All the aces were held by leave, especially on immigration. The lowest common denominator and the pandering to the basest instincts of the populace were theirs for the taking, and they took them gleefully. The remain campaign was wrong-headed and, at times, despicable (the worst bits propagated by your erstwhile friend and fellow Tory-traveller George Osborne, Nigel, lest we forget. You must be embarrassed...) and a shambles. But the thing is that remain couldn't appeal to populist instincts whereas leave had that as the cynical best weapon in its armoury. No need to talk about balance, Nigel, except to say that both sides were as bad as each other and both helped to shed far more heat than light.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 06:59 PM

So Peteaberdeen and SPB-Cooperator
You do not like the word leftard:

slang, derogatory A person of left-wing political views.

I cannot say I am too struck on being called inanes, scumbag or cockwomble, to name but a few.

Inane=silly, foolish, stupid, fatuous, idiotic, absurd, ridiculous, ludicrous, laughable, risible, imbecilic, moronic, cretinous, unintelligent, witless, asinine, .....

scumbag= a very unpleasant person who has done something dishonest or unacceptable

cockwomble= someone who engages in cottaging or gay dogging type activities in public places

I find it quite amazing that certain of those using these terms claim to be well educated. It rather betrays the weakness of their argument when they resort to insults. Their toybox is empty.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 07:07 PM

left winger - accurate
leftie -too friendly
leftist - a bit technical
lef...d - an attempt to link --actually i can't be bothered to go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 07:10 PM

Not worth it, Pete, honest!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 07:37 PM

Yeah Pete do like Shaw did in the closed thread where he advised the pack to ignore it then went on himself to post ten of his usual. Can you say HYPOCRITE.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 01:58 AM

We gain nothing by trading insults. We all know what the words mean. We all know that when a thread has a large sequence of posts just on trading insults it is liable to closure.


Let's get back to things of substance.

No need to talk about balance, Nigel
No need at all, since the balance of the article did not come into it. The only thing that mattered was that Ashcroft's exit poll of 12,369 voters found 49% of leavers gave sovereignty as their main reason and 33% gave some aspect of immigration. If you want to criticise it, there are valid ways: were the 12,369 representative? Were the questions clear? Were the questions designed with an agenda? These are fair questions and the right way to critique the finding. Asking whether an article quoting it was in was balanced is not relevant; it is real 'shoot the messenger' stuff.

Then, as Raggytash points out, there is a notable silence on the questions around stockpiling. Not least of these is whether it would work. Stockpiling is effective against a short term disturbance of some kind. How long will such disturbances be?

Then, once more, silence on the 'downgrading' of DexEU, and taking control of the negotiations.

Notable silences, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 02:46 AM

"Cockwomble - someone who engages in cottaging or gay dogging type activities in public places"

Not where I come from, never heard of it. Here's the definition I've always known and understood, and which is the reason for my use of the word to describe certain people....

"Cockwomble (noun) - A person, usually male, prone to making outrageously stupid statements and/or inappropriate behaviour while generally having a very high opinion of their own wisdom and importance.

synonyms: fuckwit, shit-for-brains"

Source - The Urban Dictionary (online)

From the definition Iains proposed, I'm guessing he must move in some very unsavoury circles. I guess we'll all have to take his word for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 03:01 AM

I agree, I have never heard Cockwomble used to mean what Iains says it means. This misunderstanding might explain his anger though, as he hasn't a valid objection to the other two terms used.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 03:10 AM

One of the best tweets I have seen for ages -

"I for one am relieved that the woman who so shrewdly called a snap election and has cleverly united the country, her cabinet and her party through strong and stable leadership is now in charge of negotiations."

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 03:33 AM

Urban Dictionary: Cockwomble
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cockwomble

The literal meaning of cockwomble is someone who engages in cottaging or gay dogging type activities in public places

"From the definition Iains proposed, I'm guessing he must move in some very unsavoury circles. I guess we'll all have to take his word for it."

I think we can all see what sort of person backwoodsman is. Very backward judging by the mode of presentation of his arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 03:37 AM

DMcG,
Then, as Raggytash points out, there is a notable silence on the questions around stockpiling.

There is nothing to say. It is a sensible precaution but may prove unnecessary.
I acknowledged some time back that there were precautions the government should take.
"DMcG, there are preparations to be made, but not at household level. Raab said on Marr today that the government is making all necessary preparations"
Remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 04:49 AM

Well, at least Rees-Mogg is providing some good news. Oh, hang on...

It Could Take 50 Years To Reap The Benefits Of Brexit

Maybe not then...

In the interview it also says The Somerset MP suggested the broadcaster was asking a “simple” question about economic success or failure based on a “complex” set of circumstances

I wonder what our resident brexiteers have to say about that? Surely it is as simple as do we leave the EU or not. Maybe they could explain to Jake the square peg in a round hole that it is not complex at all :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 05:41 AM

Once again, the headline does not match the quotes on which it is based:
"It Could Take 50 Years To Reap The Benefits Of Brexit" is not the same as: "We won't know the full economic consequences for a very long time". Nor is it the same as: "The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years."

Of course Dave will say he has read the whole article, and only given the headline as a link. But that does give the impression that Rees-Mogg said "It Could Take 50 Years To Reap The Benefits Of Brexit". Many people will read the title of the link, and go no further.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 06:08 AM

He was asked if he would resign if "the economydoes take a hit next year” when Brexit happens."
Rees-Mogg insisted the full impact will not be known for “years to come” as he hailed leaving the EU as the “greatest opportunity, economically, for this country”.

He said, “The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.”

Huff Post, " A leading Brexiteer (Rees-Mogg) has suggested it could take 50 years to judge whether Brexit has been an economic success"
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-economy-brexit_uk_5b54e3b5e4b0de86f48e3566

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 06:16 AM

Of course I have read it. It is not my problem if others do not do so but, even if they do, they will see that he actually says "The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.” Which is political speak for "I don't have a clue what is going to happen but if we wait for 50 years we may or may not see some improvement."

It is, Nigel, as you are wont to say, speculation. He is saying that his support for the leave campaign is based on speculation and optimism that something good will come out of it. Eventually. He is gambling with the country's future and backing the outcome that, according to the overwhelming body of research, is least likely to succeed.

Once again, the outcome is something I do sincerely hope I am wrong about!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 06:28 AM

This is complete codswallop in any case. Unless we could somehow have two Britains, one having undergone Brexit and the other not, side by side for comparison for the next 50 years, we will never know what the long-term impact of Brexit was. Things change in the world at a rapid pace. Nothing is predictable these days. No one is going to be sitting around in 50 years' time saying "There you are! That's what brexit did for us!" Jake Greasy-Mug is having us on. By giving brexit a bye for the next fifty years he's exonerating himself in advance for when things go badly wrong in the next three or four years. When the pound has collapsed and we've made made no progress making deals and we find that we still have to deal with the EU, only on far more disadvantageous terms, he can say "Don't blame me! We haven't given it long enough! My reputation remains inviolable until I'm pushing up daisies!"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 06:41 AM

Of course I have read it. It is not my problem if others do not do so but, even if they do, they will see that he actually says "The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.” Which is political speak for "I don't have a clue what is going to happen but if we wait for 50 years we may or may not see some improvement."

Strange. I read that same line as meaning that we will see benefits over the coming 50 years, not that it will take 50 years for us to see any benefit.
But it is good to see that you are willing to discuss the comments actually made, rather than just to post the totally misleading headline.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 06:52 AM

Strange. I read that same line as meaning...

Yes, Nigel. We have discussed this before. People see things differently. It is human nature. To seal the point you (mis)interpreted my statement "I don't have a clue what is going to happen but if we wait for 50 years we may or may not see some improvement." as "it will take 50 years for us to see any benefit."

But at least you seem willing to see that things are interpreted in different ways and due to that we can have meaningful discussions to better understand each others point of view. Even if disagreeing.

Unlike others who simply want to score points and cannot enter into any meaningful dialogue at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 06:58 AM

Unlike others who simply want to score points and cannot enter into any meaningful dialogue at all.

Perhaps because you ignore their posts?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 07:03 AM

This is complete codswallop in any case. Unless we could somehow have two Britains, one having undergone Brexit and the other not, side by side for comparison for the next 50 years, we will never know what the long-term impact of Brexit was. Things change in the world at a rapid pace. Nothing is predictable these days. No one is going to be sitting around in 50 years' time saying "There you are! That's what brexit did for us!" Jake Greasy-Mug is having us on. By giving brexit a bye for the next fifty years he's exonerating himself in advance for when things go badly wrong in the next three or four years. When the pound has collapsed and we've made made no progress making deals and we find that we still have to deal with the EU, only on far more disadvantageous terms, he can say "Don't blame me! We haven't given it long enough! My reputation remains inviolable until I'm pushing up daisies!"

Another confused Steve Shaw response.
Clearly tells us that 'nothing is predictable' then promptly starts making predictions!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 07:08 AM

"Nothing is predictable these days."

So I wonder why the remainiacs cling to an organisation hell bent on federalism, a single currency, and an economic model that seems to have failed southern Europe miserably. You know it makes no sense!
Better to watch it fall apart from the outside,rather than the inside.
Of course those here claim it was legions of the great unwashed voted for brexit because they are an uneducated rabble. But then most posting here are typical lefties with as much knowledge of economics as a squashed gnat and a fair number are not in the same social class as the great unwashed and therefore largely immune to the results of immigration driving down the wages of the unskilled. An inconvenient truth they prefer to overlook. One of a plethora in fact, concerning the merits of brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 07:22 AM

I think Steve's post is accurate except that on two occasions he has said 'when' rather than 'if'.

With those amendments, Nigel, do you still disagree with his post?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 07:33 AM

Yes, I still disagree with his post. It is not for us to change what he said, but to comment on what he said as if he had said what he intended.
Steve Shaw can do his own retractions/corrections, or just state that it was whimsy, or lies. I'm not going to do it for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 07:38 AM

Employees don't set wage-levels, that is entirely in the hands of employers.

If wage levels have been suppressed over the past period, that is as a result of the behaviour of unscrupulous employers who have taken advantage of the fact that many immigrants arrive from low-wage countries, and have offered lower wage-rates to those workers than they would have otherwise paid.

Several years ago, my company decided to employ a relatively small number of Polish workers because they were having difficulty recruiting employees from our local indigenous population. The immigrant workers were employed on precisely the same conditions of employment as our UK-nationals, and on precisely the same wage-rates as UK-nationals doing the same jobs. Pay rates are based on the job, not on where an employee was born. That is what reputable employers do.

FWIW, the Polish workers involved have proved themselves to be honest, reliable, and hard-working, and are held in high regard by their colleagues and by management.

Instead of blaming immigrants for lowering wage rates, why not put the blame where it rightly belongs - with unscrupulous employers?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 07:41 AM

Well, Steve will do what he likes, and so of course can any of us. But I am not altering his words. I am in effect reposting it in my name with those alterations.   It would seem to me to be a very normal move for any politician to try to get into the postion where they get the credit if things go well, but avoid blame if they do not. And to me, that appears to be what Jacob is doing, and what Steve's post was getting at.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 07:59 AM

No, I would still not agree with it as it seems to be based on the idea that we will not see the benefits before 50 years has elapsed.

As I've already said, I read: "The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years." to mean that we will see benefits over (not 'after') the next 50 years.

After all, it's taken us over 40 years to fully realise what the 'Common Market' was going to lead to. We were lied to back then by supporters of joining, and we've already seen that we were lied to (in Project Fear) about the immediate hazards of leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 08:05 AM

"Employees don't set wage-levels, that is entirely in the hands of employers"
Minimum wage levels are set by government in certain EU countries, UK included.
Many applicants drive wages down, a scarcity drives them up.
Do I need to connect all the dots for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 08:09 AM

I read that phrase differently again. Yes, there will be things that happen any time in the next 50 years that one might see as a benefit of Brexit. But there is also an emotional/psychological point when people feel better off a result of a change. When will that point be? No one knows. Could be a few months, or a few years, or 50 years or more. None of us know.

But by referring to 50 years I think Jacob was saying if we got to 10 years and that point had not be reached, it is still too early and he cannot yet be blamed: more time is needed. So it is not really about when Brexit benefits can be judged; it is much more about when Jacob can be judged.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 08:47 AM

Minimum wage levels are set by government in certain EU countries, UK included.

Many companies pay wage rates which exceed the Minimum Wage. This is especially true of employers of skilled and semi-skilled workers. in those cases your point is irrelevant.

Many applicants drive wages down, a scarcity drives them up.

Fair and reputable employers have formal pay-structures, and set wage rates according to the job. No account is taken of how many applicants there are when a new employee is set on - he/she is paid in accordance with the company's pay structure. In those cases your point is irrelevant.

Do I need to connect all the dots for you?

That comment isn't even worthy of a response. Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 09:00 AM

Thanks, DMcG. It's refreshing to have a chap around who will actually read something I've posted without an initial agenda. But I'm afraid I'm sticking with my whens, not ifs. Put it down to my eternal sense of foreboding and pessimism about the insane path this country is being led down. And Nigel, the only confusion around here is being endured by people who think they can trust a single word that Rees-Mogg utters. And I could point out to you yet again that Project Fear was led by a Tory. One of your bedfellows. And he was especially strident about, as you say, the immediate hazards of leaving. The Tory rump left behind when he and other fellow crazies packed up politics (aka abandoned the sinking ship) are now leading us down that insane path. Fills you with hope, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 09:16 AM

"Many companies pay wage rates which exceed the Minimum Wage. This is especially true of employers of skilled and semi-skilled workers. in those cases your point is irrelevant."


My post concerned unskilled people. What part of unskilled can you not understands?

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 09:17 AM

Er, John...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 09:32 AM

It could almost be from the Daily Wail!

http://socialistreview.org.uk/312/immigratio


"the Bank of England has revealed the influx from Eastern Europe and elsewhere into catering, hotels and social care jobs has led to an average two per cent pay cut for many low-skilled staff, its research shows.

As a result some of the least well-off British workers are losing hundreds of pounds a year."

Do I need to connect all the dots? seems so!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 09:48 AM

And not just pay.
We already had a housing crisis before the influx. Now the poorest have to compete for housing as demand for an utterly inadequate supply pushes up rents to unaffordable levels.
The three parties just told them they must be racists to object.

Also other services. I remember Steve complaining his health centre was "over-run" and his local schools "bursting at the seams" because if incomers if not immigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 10:05 AM

I really don't want to talk to you at all, especially when you are deliberately being an idiot as now, but the problem round here is caused by very poor planning decisions, not by an influx of migrants to this country. And wages are decided by employers, not by employees. I really can't see what's so hard to understand about that. Goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 10:40 AM

wages are decided by employers, not by employees. I really can't see what's so hard to understand about that

Might you be able to see a difference if an employer was looking to employ several persons (possibly for temporary work) and had the chance to choose between two groups of applicants, both capable of doing the work, where one group wanted to be paid the legal minimum wage, but the other group wanted to be paid minimum wage plus 10%?
Most employers would think the minimum wage was the better offer.
So it is the employees (ready to work for a lower figure) who are driving the wages down. "What's so hard to understand about that"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 10:41 AM

And wages are decided by employers, not by employees"

Who on earth is stupid enough to think otherwise? The statement was made by: Backwoodsman - PMDate: 26 Jul 18 - 07:38 AM

So who are you calling the idiot stevie blunder? Do you have the attention span of a gnat as well and cannot follow the postings presented? or are you simply so busy trying to insult people you have lost the plot?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 10:57 AM

What's your nickname, Nigel, "Contortionist-in-Chief?" :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 11:00 AM

Sadly, this thread seems to be going the way of so many others, wrecked by the same two or three morons. I'm not going to allow myself to be part of the cause of its closure - I'm out. Anyone else with any common sense and an iota of self-respect will do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 11:47 AM

me too - however does anyone think it may be an idea to run a thread on post brexit life in the uk? i don't mean concerning the exact meaning of the length of JRM's prophecies, or tired old arguments about 'immigrants' and wages or how useless the current crop of top politicians are. i mean we are all going to have to live with this mess however it turns out. personally i will still go to work with plenty of ukip types who like trump; working for vulnerable people reliant on an increasingly precarious benefits system. my children work in estonia, london, leeds, italy and glasgow. 3 of their partners could be described as having potential difficulties to come about where they will be allowed to live -2 of them are looking for a new citizenship, so the question is very real to us. yet....though of course i care and find it very hard to switch off reading the news about the latest crimes of the capitalists or the arcane minutiae of this discussion .....in a sense i don't really care about all these divisions and nonsense in our society.
for example, i am thoroughly sick of the 'coming over here taking our jobs' shite...and the inevitable 'not a racist but..' all of us of a certain age were brought up on crap 70s sitcoms and with racist assumptions and all of us learned what nonsense it was and at least tried to move on. now we have a new set of hatemongers in powerful positions and they are re-legitimising the idiotic language and politics of division.

sorry i'm rambling here - anyway, anyone fancy a conversation that does not recognize borders or nationalities and is concerned how we get along with each other in 3-5 years time? i'm increasingly finding that we have a sad split between people who are open to positive ideas or just closed to their own narrow prejudices and political party interests. maybe i'm the only one so i won't start a new thread concerning how an old hippy should best use his remaining years in these fractious times - but if someone else wants to open it up that's great. carry on and i'll join in with anyone who wants to be part of the solution

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 12:48 PM

"I'm out. Anyone else with any common sense and an iota of self-respect will do the same."
Me too
I've long decided that there's no point responding to people who never reply and then claim nobody has challenged them
I understand perfectly why people like Iains behave as they do
I cannot for the life of me understand why mods would rather close an entire thread and punish us all when a red card and then a kick in the arse when it is ignored would do the job
Nor do I understand why people feed such viciousness as this by responding to it

Twat.??
And
What a silly little man you are!
And
Shaw you are a fool.
And
Tell me did you leave Catholicism because God decided he could not be a**sed to argue with you any longer?
And
So Shaw why do you not correct jimmies unique massacre of the english language? After all for a well educated "polymath" such as yourself it would be merely the matter of a moment.
And
Calm down Shaw you are getting hysterical
And
Not in your classroom now stevie boy.
And
you stupid boy!
And
Oh dear-by his own admission he has totally lost the plot. Time to move in and just ignore the ramblings.
And
Is this because a few more are having the audacity to question your incessant gibberings?
Aand
Raggytash. You have a vivid imagination, if little else!
And
Your hubris blinds you to reality, you poor soul.
And
hold your fire and show us all that you are finally on the beginning of the path to growing up.
And
You must lead a very empty life.


And that’s just two months from last year – where next?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 01:06 PM

I am afraid I can also see why many people feel there is little point in this thread continuing, because between insults and point scoring the substantial matter is largely dodged.

The topic is an important one, but I don't see any attempt to replace it doing better. I can already imagine the "Brexit hasn't happened yet so all comments are pointless" forming a good part of the comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 01:43 PM

Well we could try Brexit Mark 2.

In it we would all agree to keep to the subject matter, Brexit, avoid all personal comments, foul language and point scoring.

I would gladly sign up to that, how many others?

PS I am still waiting for Iains or Nigel or Stanron to make any comment on the governments proposal to stockpile medical supplies and food. Two days have now passed and no mention has been made by them.

Am I correct to assume that even they are concerned by this latest pronouncement.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 01:52 PM

I would.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 02:30 PM

I have missed the news today but am aware there has been a meeting in Brussels but havee found no reports in the media as yet. Has any progress been made.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 02:31 PM

Rag,
PS I am still waiting for Iains or Nigel or Stanron to make any comment on the governments proposal to stockpile medical supplies and food. Two days have now passed and no mention has been made by them.

I answered it. They must have decided it was covered.

Here is my reply again if you missed it,


"There is nothing to say. It is a sensible precaution but may prove unnecessary.
I acknowledged some time back that there were precautions the government should take.
"DMcG, there are preparations to be made, but not at household level. Raab said on Marr today (Sunday last) that the government is making all necessary preparations" "

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 02:33 PM

I have missed the news today but am aware there has been a meeting in Brussels but havee found no reports in the media as yet. Has any progress been made.

Brussels rejected out of hand May's suggestion of us collecting EU charges.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 02:48 PM

Here is one report.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 03:35 PM

Better out than in!


https://order-order.com/2018/07/03/meps-vote-reject-transparency-second-salary/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 03:38 PM

"I cannot for the life of me understand why mods would rather close an entire thread and punish us all when a red card and then a kick in the arse when it is ignored would do the job"

They probably don't like to think of you having to stand up all the time because of a sore ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 03:44 PM

Thank you DMcG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 03:12 AM

LATEST IN THIS FIASCO

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 03:50 AM

I think Tom Peck in the Independent captured the problem quite well, even though his is essentially a humorous column:

====

What better way than for the new Brexit secretary to show how things would be more grown up now than to set up his first day of negotiations in Brussels with an opinion piece in the Daily Mail which he described as his "Brexit war cry".

When the sole purpose of your visit is to sell Theresa May’s pre-collapsed Chequers "agreement" to the EU, the one that involves convincing the EU we can definitely be trusted to collect their import taxes for them even as we simultaneously threaten not to give them the £39bn we’ve already agreed to pay, why not kick things off with a nice war cry?

====

Leaving the levity out of it, persuading someone you can be trusted while backtracking on an earlier - provisional - agreement is a hard sell.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 03:55 AM

At last Michel Barnier gets something right:
From Jim's link:
Mr Barnier refused to describe the UK position as “evolved”, insisting the controversial Chequers document clashes with the wishes of the remaining 27 EU leaders.

I believe most of those who voted leave would say it also clashes with their wishes.
We have some common ground!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:06 AM

the £39bn we’ve already agreed to pay,

Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. If there is no agreement,.....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:11 AM

BBC 8 hours ago,
"the nugget of good news: Big strides have been made on security co-operation after Brexit."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:41 AM

"We have some common ground!"
I doubt it
Barnier has rightly refused to agree to anything that would damage the security of the members of the EU - top of the list is Ireland which stands to lose everything that has been gained by the Peace Process

Britain ***** up a newly liberated Ireland by imposing a sectarian partitioned State
Now they are non only continuing to threatened the peace of the Republic, but they are flying in the face of the interests of the people of the Six Counties they created
All because Miss Little England loves Union Jack
He really isn't worth it missus
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 05:16 AM

Britain ***** up a newly liberated Ireland by imposing a sectarian partitioned State

Britain did not want the partition. It could only impose a united Ireland at gunpoint, but the British Army refused to fight the Unionists, and the Irish Army couldn't.

Britain did not impose it. It was forced on us.
Why can't you persuade the Northerners to join you now? We still don't want them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 05:51 AM

Something else to prepare for - the costs of any changes to VAT/Indirect Taxes as a result of no longer being part of the ECG/ECS. I trust the good people of Uxbridge will pay all the additional accountancy fees for SMEs and micro-businesses in the UK in order to comply with any changes to indirect taxes regimes - it is their fault for voting for Johnson.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 05:55 AM

"Britain ***** up a newly liberated Ireland by imposing a sectarian partitioned Stat"

The fourth and final Home Rule Bill (the Government of Ireland Act 1920) partitioned the island into Northern Ireland (six northeastern counties) and Southern Ireland (the rest of the island)

The Irish Free State 6 December 1922 – 29 December 1937) was a state established in 1922 under the Anglo-Irish Treaty of December 1921. That treaty ended the three-year Irish War of Independence between the forces of the self-proclaimed Irish Republic, the Irish Republican Army (IRA), and British Crown forces.

The Free State was established as a Dominion of the British Commonwealth of Nations. It comprised 26 of the 32 counties of Ireland. Northern Ireland, which comprised the remaining six counties
exercised its right under the Treaty to opt out of the new state.

In the first months of the Free State, the Irish Civil War was waged between the newly established National Army and the anti-Treaty IRA, who refused to recognise the state. The Civil War ended in victory for the government forces, with the anti-Treaty forces dumping their arms in May 1923.



What history book are you using Jim? It appears riddled with errors.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 05:55 AM

Why can't you persuade the Northerners to join you now? We still don't want them.

A little harsh. I have no objection to Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK, if that is what they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:07 AM

We have been over this a thousamnnd times Iain's
I certainly have no intention of re-opening it with a couple of Cut-'n-Paste historians

"I have no objection to Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK, if that is what they want".
That's damned big of you Nigel - it's not the issue
The difference between the wants and don't wants and don't wants is now minute and shrinking - Brexit has hastened that process.
What is at stake is what happens when it reaches parity - Britain's approach to the border (both internal and seaward) risks a violent conclusion
revisionist "historians(sic) like Iains and Keith are typical of the situation and the causes self-imposed hatred and ignorance
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:16 AM

Well Jim if your sentence was accurate I would have no problem with it. But as I have demonstrated, it is a pack of lies. There is no point in further argument.

You use this forum repeatedly to demonstrate your hatred of all things British. Though I suspect your hatred does not extend as far as refusing your British pension!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:27 AM

The people who hate Britain are those who will happily damage peoples' lives to advance their own self interests, rather than dedicate their lives towards enriching society. I love my country, I love the fact the Britain in a better place for what diverse cultures have brought to society. I detest those who abuse their power (politically, economically) and position to drag this country down into the gutter.

I am hoping that in 9-10 years the likes of farage, johnson, mogg, gove, may have not *****d up my desire to retire to Prague. I have had nothing in writing guaranteeing this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:37 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:07 AM
. . .
"I have no objection to Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK, if that is what they want".
That's damned big of you Nigel - it's not the issue

The whole of my short comment was in response to Keith's Why can't you persuade the Northerners to join you now? We still don't want them.

Read it in that context, and you will realise that I am not against you in what I said.

That doesn't mean that I agree with your other views on what, or whose, actions and views are prejudicing the future of Ireland. But on this occasion there's no need to 'jump down my throat' for a considered response.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:40 AM

From: SPB-Cooperator:

I am hoping that in 9-10 years the likes of farage, johnson, mogg, gove, may have not *****d up my desire to retire to Prague. I have had nothing in writing guaranteeing this.

Nobody is likely to have had any effect on your desire to retire to Prague.
Your ability to retire may be another thing, but again, I doubt that Brexit will have done anything to prevent it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:47 AM

A little harsh. I have no objection to Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK, if that is what they want.

They do want, so we have to keep them. A huge drain in treasure but at least not blood any more.

They want to remain in EU. Britain is leaving. Republic is remaining.
It should be a no-brainer, but they STILL want to stay with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:50 AM

I suspect you know full well what SPB meant, Nigel. Nitpicking adds nothing to the argument. The ability to reside in other European countries will undoubtedly be affected.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:58 AM

" The ability to reside in other European countries will undoubtedly be affected."

The automatic right to reside in other EUcountries may well be affected. A slightly different concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 07:02 AM

The automatic right to reside in other EUcountries may well be affected. A slightly different concept.

Or even: The automatic right (of British Nationals) to reside in other EU countries may well be affected. I take it the French right to reside in France will be unaffected by Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 07:41 AM

I can only repeat that nitpicking adds nothing to the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 07:45 AM

My personal opinion would be that posts which do not make clear what it is they mean to say add nothing to the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 08:06 AM

I have recently answered a question on another website where I used the ambiguities in the word "day" by way of illustrating how ambiguous English is. It is almost impossible to write a truly unambigous English sentence. Indeed, a very large part of commercial law is about such ambiguities.

I think nitpicking is often associated with a point that is well understood but would rather not be addressed, so a "non-response" nitpicking is used instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 08:44 AM

And my opinion is that anyone who cannot discern the actual meaning of a poorly worded statement, given the context and history, should not really be involved in complex discussions.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 08:46 AM

...but of course none of this has anything to do with brexit, serves only to derail the thread and is a poor substitute for good arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 08:50 AM

The ambiguities in the English language come from the imprecision of the user.
'Day' is a good example, today, this day, etc. are fine in general speech. But 'Day' can mean the period from sunrise to sunset on a particular date, or a period of 24 hours, (Either from midnight to midnight, or some other selection).
Confusion can be avoided by more careful selection from the language.
For 'Sunrise to sunset' use 'daytime'
For some random consecutive period of 24 hours, use '24 hours'
For midnight to midnight (24 hours) use 'calendar day'.

It is not that English is ambiguous, it is that so few people choose to use the correct words to give the specific meaning they intend to convey.
The diversity of the English language allows you to choose exactly the right word(s) to convey your meaning clearly, but is lost on those who believe that any word can simply be replaced by any other which appears under the same heading in a thesaurus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:02 AM

It is still off topic, but even leaving aside the occasional leap second complications, "24 hours" and "midnight to midnight" do not always denote the same length of time. So if you used 'day' like that you are open to nitpicking.

As we all are, all the time. That's why seeking genuine clarification is fine, but nitpicking is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:16 AM

So getting back to Brexit: Keith claimed that the reason Nigel, Iains and others had not responded is because he had already said everything they would want to say, that the government will do it all.

Is that the case, Nigel, and others? Because Raab's department is due to issue documents over the next few weeks that they say will spell out what we need to do as households and businesses.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:17 AM

Spot on DMcG.

Back to the main plot...

The brexiteers on here seem to have acquired an unexpected ally.

Jeremy Corbyn has tried to put a possitive spin on things at least. Something that those on here have spectacularly failed to do. Shall we assume that you shall all now join the Labour party and support Corbyn?

and before you ask, yes, I do support Jeremy and no, I do not agree with him on everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:37 AM

If talking about the EU, why talk about Europe?Sloppy wording implies sloppy thinking. We see a lot of it here! There is no ambiguity between EU and Europe. One is a geographical entity, the other political.
Mixing the two is simply erroneous and nonsensical.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:41 AM

So you are opposed to the term Brexit when it should be UKexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:42 AM

Do you want to make the point about nitpicking again, DMcG, or shall I?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:44 AM

No, let's just give them time to respond to stockpiling questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:47 AM

50 countries in europe only 28 in EU. Hardly nitpicking to point out an obvious error. There is only free movement between EU members.

Do you think the moon landings could have occurred without insisting on numerical accuracy?

Why do you not just admit you screwed up, then we could move on?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:54 AM

Nigel, if it helps at all, yes, I did say Europe when I meant EU. Everyone knows what we are talking about anyway so it is an irrelevance. Now, why do you not just admit that you are picking up on these trivial points to detract from the fact that you have run out of anything sensible to say about brexit?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:03 AM

Was it not Diane Abbot who reputedly asked how much was a carrillion?
It rather demonstrates the insouciance for figures exhibited by those of the left, especially if the figures concern other people's money!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:05 AM

Oh, and for what it is worth, if I do get down to Moira I shall astutely avoid the Mudgather for fear of being told that the word is asked rather than axed or that sailors did not actually wear red top boots ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:10 AM

"It is not that English is ambiguous, it is that so few people choose to use the correct words to give the specific meaning they intend to convey.
The diversity of the English language allows you to choose exactly the right word(s) to convey your meaning clearly, but is lost on those who believe that any word can simply be replaced by any other which appears under the same heading in a thesaurus."

Very pompous.

So we're not all professors of English here, nor are we writing legalise. What's more, it's possible to be in a hurry and post with insufficient proofreading, and, as I know to my cost, it's possible to temporarily lose one's reading specs. You need to learn to live with it, Nigel. Your own use of English, stiff and colourless as it is, is far from perfect and nothing gives me greater delight than pointing out the failings of nitpickers such as yourself and one or two others here. To see the biter bit is a delicious experience. To avoid being in that unenviable position, just tell us what you think about brexit, etc., and ignore the occasional human failing. As has been pointed out to you, it's perfectly easy to glean what people really mean.

As for Corbyn, he's one of those few incorrigible old lefties who haven't changed their stance since the 70s and 80s when to be a leftie meant that you were anti-Europe. Around 90% of the half-million extra members he attracted to the party after his election are pro-EU. You might expect them to be mostly lefties, yet they are not for brexit. I was rigidly anti-EU meself for a very long time but like most lefties I've seen the light. It's my guess that even Tony Benn would be pro-EU by now were he still around.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:12 AM

Words as sung

We're reet down in't coal'ole wheer't muck slaps on't winders
We've used all our coal up and we're reet down t'cinders
When bum bailiff comes callin' he won't know wheer't find us
Coz we're reet down in't coal'ole wheer't muck slaps on't winders

Words the pedants would insist on

We are in the basement where the dust accumulates on the casement
We have utilised all our anthracite and we have nothing left but the residue
When the landlords representative visits he will not know where we are
Because we are in the basement where the dust accumulates on the casement

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:13 AM

Legalese. That was the soddin' spellchecker this time!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:55 AM

We all knew what you meant, Steve, Bar one. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 10:57 AM

I am sure Diane Abbott mean't carillon. The Express, that bastion of brexiter ignorance and ill-education, famously published the headline:

"Carillon collapse hits shares of rivals Galliford Try and Balfour Beatty"

I suspect that the only way a carillon collapse could do this would be to fall on their directors. Though this might always send the shares up of course.

How much is a carillon? There are various sites from manufacturers and restorers, none seem to give prices. The answer seems to be that if you have to ask, you can't afford one.

All of which would be way over the heads of the readers of the Express of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 11:16 AM


I am sure Diane Abbott meant carillon

Or more like she said no such thing and it is a made up story. But if Iains would like to provide evidence she did say it, perhaps he could provide link.

But still nothing from Iains on those stockpiles....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 11:27 AM

"But as I have demonstrated, it is a pack of lies. "
Isn't it always where it comes to criticising British History ?
Your Wiki cut-'n-paste (from someone who has regularly sneered at Wiki and usually depends on old reliables such as Guido Fawkes) is heavily outdated by the writings of Historians like Christine Kenneally, Tim Par Coogan, and even the fine English writer Robert Kee
Even the good old Thames Television series on 'The Troubles' kicked your Imperial interpretation into touch
Wake up - the Empire's long dead
If it's all lies - prove it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 11:33 AM

"It is not that English is ambiguous, it is that so few people choose to use the correct words to give the specific meaning they intend to convey.
The diversity of the English language allows you to choose exactly the right word(s) to convey your meaning clearly, but is lost on those who believe that any word can simply be replaced by any other which appears under the same heading in a thesaurus."

Very pompous.

No! Absolutely correct. Any technical reports have to be written in very precise language in order to avoid ambiguity. Just because there may be a preponderance of arty/crafty lefties here that favour loosely constructed sentences, and are happy with approximations of what they wish to say does, not alter this reality. It is a good job airline pilots can follow precise instructions and do not rely on approximations. After all, when flying there is a world of difference between a 1000mm and 1000m when defining altitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 11:45 AM

Rather ironic that a post in which you champion accuracy in language is actually full of gibberish.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 11:51 AM

If Diane actually said that, I imagine it was a piss-take on Dubya's celebrated Bushism, thus:

Giving Bush his daily war briefing, Donald Rumsfeld ended by saying: 'Yesterday, three Brazilian soldiers were killed.' 'Oh no!', exclaimed Bush. 'That's terrible.' His staff were stunned by this display of emotion. Finally Bush raised his head from his hands and asked: 'OK, so how many is a Brazillion?'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 12:09 PM

" I imagine it was a piss-take on Dubya's celebrated Bushism"

Don't fink so. Here is your starter   for 10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYZ262b7wBI

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 12:11 PM

or this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWYIkhJdOZI

Would be a comedy in any other circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 12:24 PM

Is that your evidence to justify "Was it not Diane Abbot who reputedly asked how much was a carrillion?"

Because the answer would seem to be "no". It is certainly not in that collection of worst moments, anyway.

But that is still not Brexit, you know. Since you seem be avoiding the stockpile issues, what about the vain attempts to override the negotiations by talking directly to the individual countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 12:40 PM

Diane Abbot is numerically challenged, , like many of the left!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 12:44 PM

I would consider they are avoiding to the stockpiling news because like any rational person they realise the serious implications for the future health of the country and have no answer. I would go further and suggest that even they are now having doubts about the UK leaving the EU and the damage that may be inflicted upon it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 01:08 PM

Raggytash if anyone had a grain of sense they would stockpile necessities in case of any event that destroyed supply chains. It may be very clever to have just in time deliveries and no doubt has accountants drooling, but just consider how long those supply chains are and also   how vulnerable.
A forecast of leaves on the line, or a light snowfall in 6 months time has the supermarkets out of bread and milk in an instant. Any kind of real crisis would cause havoc. I believe Maggie wound down emergency stockpiles with the ending of the cold war. A total embargo would have us out of fuel and food in less than a month I believe. If the average person has a weeks supply of food I would be surprised.
You may put your trust in government, I prefer tin cans.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 01:27 PM

Situation at end of cold war.


http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/features/food/

An indication of recent government thinking.

https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/media/document/FINAL_FFS_Report-June-2014.pdf

I imagine a hard brexit would add a few more bells and whistles to the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 01:29 PM

Waitrose baked beans are £1.10 for a four-pack and are very nice.

Shit. Why am I telling you this?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 01:52 PM

Iains, ask yourself this.

Why are the government NOW asking for stockpiles to be built up.

We all make provisions for a rainy day (if we can afford to) this is over and above the usual provisions.

Just ask yourself why, and why now in particular.

I think you know the answer but would prefer to be in denial, and being in a state of denial is something I'm increasing ascribing to those who still support Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 01:55 PM

It is interesting that one of your links is relevant in a post nuclear holocaust situation ...............

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 02:00 PM

A government is supposed to plan for all eventualities. No one likes to stockpile anymore because of cost and the aggravation of ensuring adequate turnover. But if no deal results, both sides end up with bruises
The EU negotiators appear totally oblivious to this. It appears to me the EU is rushing headlong to cut off its nose to spite its face. If that is their negotiating tactic then obviously we need to plan for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 02:16 PM

No Raggy. The link below is the bees knees

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/features/sfs/file_14.htm

You might have to learn how to go scrumping!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 02:26 PM

I've been scrumping manys a time iains, I've also been in fields after a harvest to collect what was left behind. I've struggled at time to buy a loaf of bread and a tin of beans.

These are not actions I would expect from the government of a very weathly (for some) nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 02:40 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 09:41 AM
So you are opposed to the term Brexit when it should be UKexit?

Not at all. It is a neologism which has been given a single meaning, and which has widespread usage. Nobody has seriously suggested either an alternate term to use, or an alternate meaning.
Also, as there was no existing term which quite covered the required meaning, a new word was needed.

As I thought I had made clear, I am in favour of words which can be used which convey clearly an individual meaning.

Unfortunately, if we allowed Michel Barnier to dictate, and accepted a border down the Irish Sea, Brexit could become a better description than UKexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 02:47 PM

I hate to put this up again as the thread on it got closed but this is a discussion forum, not a debating society. There are no formal rules. It is like a bunch of people having a chat down the pub. People say things and put things in different ways and everyone knows what they mean. Those who chose to use others choice of language as a weapon, quite rightly, have the piss taken out of them and soon find that no one will engage with them. You are getting very close, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:59 PM

"As I thought I had made clear, I am in favour of words which can be used which convey clearly an individual meaning."

But I see you're fine with the owld muddle between "alternative" and "alternate..."

The biter bit...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:37 PM

"People say things and put things in different ways and everyone knows what they mean. Those who chose to use others choice of language as a weapon, quite rightly, have the piss taken out of them and soon find that no one will engage with them. You are getting very close, Nigel."

I am afraid I do not agree with you. There are no people posting here that are not capable of checking facts, or phrasing their postings with a minimum of ambiguity.
There is no excuse for making statements that are demonstrably untrue, or for trying to put forward opinions as fact. Trying to wriggle away from responsibility by claiming not to be a lawyer, so sloppy presentation is quite OK, is a total cop out.
I always endeavour to be clear as to whether I am quoting others, stating facts,or offering opinions. I could not care what opinion a   poster may hold, but inaccuracy and opinion trying to masquerade as fact do provoke a reaction. People may well say things in different ways but that is no excuse for ambiguity that leads to argument.
I can only react to what people say, it is the responsibility of the author to say what they mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 06:41 PM

And I suppose you didn't think that post needed proofreading. Heheh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 02:56 AM

Disagree to your hearts content.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 03:39 AM

Let me get back to this stockpiling question. To be honest, I now think it more likely we will get a deal, and so the question of stockpiling is perhaps less important. But it would arise if we have a no deal.

So, Iain's, you think everyone sensible should stockpile rather than rely on the government. I agree to some extent: I would certainly have doubts about the ability of this government to organise it adequately.

But the function of a stockpile is really to allow for fluctuations in the supply without needing to alter demand. So that immediately raises the question how long does the stockpiling (supplement) have to last? Is it days, weeks, months or years? And what should it cover? At the low end of stockpiling we have a few more tins. When to get to the wildly-over-the-top (I hope). You are in full survivalist mode with stockpiles of water, fuel, alternative cooking arrangements and whatever.

What are you considering stockpiling and to cover how long a period?


By its nature, stockpiling, whether by individuals or governments, is limited: to actually address a long term problem you may have to address the demand side. That is rationing. Now, I doubt if any government could be elected for many decades if it introduced rationing in peace time, so the chances are exceedingly low. Nevertheless, it is the logical consequence of long term supply problems if they occur.


Even if the government does make stockpiling work effectively, it is likely that it will only cover a subset of goods. Fuel will presumably be a priority and staple foods, but not the less essential ones. We could easily find the range of goods on offer reduced significantly.

As far as we can tell so far, the government plan is not to stockpile to to persuade businesses to do the stockpiling of their own goods. I think that very problematic, but perhaps that's for another post.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 03:51 AM

Steve pointed out Nigel's error already, but people who do not know the difference between alternate and alternative really annoy me. One or two TV presenters are guilty of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 03:54 AM

. Fuel will presumably be a priority

Why? Apart from smuggled red diesel from Ireland it mostly comes from outside EU, and does not require customs checks anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 04:03 AM

Just this once, as it is a sensible question, Keith, I will respond. I should have said, 'ensuring an adequate fuel supply' rather than put that in stockpiling, I accept that.

Look at the position in Ireland of electricity supply to see why fuel is an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 04:17 AM

Ireland needs to start thinking more about alternative forms of electricity ,the way water is wasted in ireland is scandalous, incompetent politicians seem to be every where. for the UK TO HAVE GIVEN A REFERENDUM WITHOUT ANY PLAN WAS IRRESPONSIBLE.
i predict sterling will fall and hard times for people in the uk and also irelads ,i hope i am wrong, it is possible we may see the eventual disintegration of the european empire[who knows], it is very difficult to know what is going to happen, apart from those with not much will have even less.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 04:18 AM

BBC,"On energy, the latest White Paper recommits the government to preserve the Single Electricity Market in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. "

The Republic needs that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 04:20 AM

DMg Peacetime rationing has occurred. Post WW2 it was lifted in 1954.
How you define stockpile is a moveable feast, but I would take it at it's broadest to mean additional supplies organised in addition to what is already in the supply chain. Fuel is not imported from the EU to the UK, other than polish coal. So I really see no need for a rationing scenario to be explored. The UK tank farms and pipelines contain a strategic reserve anyway, to cover short term interruptions, should they occur.
I think the conversation is rather loosing track. We are talking a possible hiatus in EU trade, not an embargo policed by the UN. Even shipping from New Zealand or the US Pacific coast only takes around 7 weeks to UK ports. There may be a need to stockpile certain items as a precautionary measure in case alternative plans contain flaws.Personally I think the drama is vastly overstated. My feeling is that foodprices in the UK would fall unless the high agricultural subsidies are continued for UK farmers(€3 billion)
Our departure will certainly leave the CAP with a major funding shortfall and hasten it's very necessary reform.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 05:05 AM

That is a bit different, Iains. Rationing was in place because of the war, and not lifted until long afterwards as you say. That is not the same as introducing it in peacetime, which would be politically difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 05:33 AM

Prepacked cheddar cheese is still good at least six months past its use-by date. I recommend Wookey Hole cave-aged. You can even freeze it. Creme fraiche will keep for months unopened. For two people, mix a good-quality jar of tuna in olive oil (drained) (keeps for at least four years) with five dessertspoons of creme fraiche, a handful of capers (which keep for years unopened) some salt (keeps for hundreds of millions of years), freshly-ground pepper (two years), a chopped clove of garlic and a handful of chopped fresh parsley (you should be growing the garlic and parsley yourself). Mix it all together then boil 250g of short pasta (keeps for two or three years). Salty water of course. Drain the pasta retaining a bit of the cooking water. Add to the tuna mix and stir it altogether with a bit of pasta water. Grate Parmesan on top (keeps for six months, longer if unwrapped). There. Not a stockpiled tin in sight.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 05:43 AM

"And I suppose you didn't think that post needed proofreading. Heheh."

Another stunning contribution from Shaw. Which persona were you masquerading under to generate the gem above? The ex teach, the well educated scientist................,the resident.....?

Remember this contribution from yourself yesterday?
So we're not all professors of English here, nor are we writing legalise. What's more, it's possible to be in a hurry and post with insufficient proofreading,

What a buffoon!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 06:50 AM

Rationing was in place because of the war, and not lifted until long afterwards as you say. That is not the same as introducing it in peacetime, which would be politically difficult.

And totally unnecessary! Why bring up such an irrelevant issue which no-one has ever mentioned as being the remotest possibility?

Stockpiling would only be to cover a possible temporary shortage of a few days while importers readjust their suppliers, and is only being considered as a precaution unlikely to be needed at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 07:09 AM

Grr. A victim of the spellchecker for the second day running. Stir it all together, not altogether. And for the benefit of Iains, who is so obsessed with finding trouble that he can't follow threads, I corrected "legalise" (another spellchecker casualty) extremely rapidly yesterday. I'll be stockpiling basmati and risotto rice today. My pasta cupboard is full and I have a dozen or more tins of peeled plum toms. Olive oil from Tuscany, four bottles, is good for several years. Top quality balsamic, ten years at least. I'll be feasting gourmet-style while foolish virgins are scraping baked beans from rusty tins!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 07:23 AM

And food will become cheaper so the poor can eat a little better, though not feasting to your gourmet standards obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 07:50 AM

Ireland will be hurt seriously by no deal.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/brexit-food-and-drink-exports-still-heavily-reliant-on-uk-1.3350661


As will Germany the single biggest EU exporter to the UK

Ireland:
"The proportion of food and live animal exports to the UK increased to 46% in 2015 from 38% in 2000, while exports in manufactured goods rose to 55% of the sectors' total exports from 43% over the same time.

Irish agri-food would face some of the highest tariffs if the EU-registered World Trade Organisation tariff schedule was applied to EU-UK trade should Britain leave under a so-called "Hard Brexit" in 2019

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 08:01 AM

Oh dear. No deal would be a disaster for Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 08:14 AM

Of course this set of figures pays no heed to the overwhelming majority of Irish exports trans-shipped through the UK, or the amount of Irish haulage business kept afloat by this.

For Germany:

39,421 $million imports from UK
4% imports from UK
94,076 $million exports to UK
7% exports to uk

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 08:42 AM

Irish Ferries will have a new ship in the fleet, either later this year or early next year.

The current Dublin/Holyhead ship the MV Ulysses will be transferred to a continental route.

When lauched in 2001 the Ulysses was the largest ro-ro ferry in the world capable of transporting 241 articluated trucks and trailers on each journey.

Irish ferries have said the new ship MV W B Yeats is larger than the current ferry and have on order a further ship of similar size.

There are of course other shipping companies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 09:22 AM

There are of course other shipping companies.

But not an overabundance of spare capacity ferries.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 09:55 AM

My point being Iains is that the current vessels can cope with the currect freight through the UK and onwards to the EU. The new vessels can be directed to EU ports if and when push comes to shove, missing out the UK entirely, with the subsequent loss of revenue to the UK of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 10:11 AM

with the subsequent loss of revenue to the UK of course.

The trucks do not even buy fuel on their way through.
They use our roads for free.
By sea, their journey time will more than double, with the subsequent increase in costs of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 10:55 AM

As discussed previously Irish ferry movements are almost entirely to the UK with the exception of a weekly sailing to France and Spain. This may well change after Brexit but still leaves Ireland with a problem of finding alternative markets for agricultural products for which the UK provides the dominant share. Also the high level of import protection of the common market has led to a rise in prices of basic agricultural products far above the level of prices on the world market. This adds further difficulty to finding alternative markets outside the EU for Ireland, and also explains why the UK could cut deals to reduce food prices.A definite plus for brexit.

Also Irish threats about airspace could be immediately countered by impeding irish trucking.Dublin’s strategic problem is that London’s hard-line approach to leaving the EU and its customs union is now exploding Britain’s status as a reliable commercial land bridge. Irish food merchants and hauliers are being confronted with the prospect of journey times tripling and painful logjams for customs clearance in ill-equipped ports that will prove lethal to their profit margins.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 11:02 AM

The Irish grocery sector could be the hardest hit from Brexit with more than two-thirds of products on Irish supermarket shelves either manufactured in the UK or imported through Britain. Also more than half of the imported materials used by Irish-owned firms to produce final products are sourced in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 11:55 AM

I am sure Iains that you are aware that the Irish government is already making preparartion for many possible scenarios, including a "no deal" situation. Recruiting staff for border checks etc.

I am not aware that the UK government is doing the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 12:57 PM

The cost of driving an artic from Holyhead to Hull the nearest port for onward traffic to the EU is approx 150 pounds (sterling) the cost on the return journey will be the same. So unless the ferry companies charge more than 300 pounds (sterling) for a longer sea journey there will likely be little financial impact for the freighters.

And before anyone asks, the time differences will make not a great impact either. you still have to pay a driver whether he/she is driving or sitting on a ferry, this in conjuction with less wear and tear on the wagon, less time spent at a port of entry (Iains the EU will gear up for this) the new ferries may well be of benefit to Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 01:28 PM

Raggy you are concentrating on the supply lines. It would be more beneficial to hunt for the new destinations for said irish supplies.
If there will be potential problems for imports, the loss of the major destination for agricultural output will be fa more of a headache.
(According to some reports 50% goes to the UK)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 01:31 PM

Or even worse:


https://www.farmersjournal.ie/dairy-and-beef-exports-could-fall-by-76-and-53-in-hard-brexit-347058

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 02:11 PM

Rag, if your facts were right they would be doing that now.
Dublin to Cherbourg for a 17m artic by Irish Ferries is £949 sterling one way and takes 19 hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 04:12 PM

From: Steve Shaw
"As I thought I had made clear, I am in favour of words which can be used which convey clearly an individual meaning."
But I see you're fine with the owld muddle between "alternative" and "alternate..."
The biter bit...

And:
From: David Carter (UK)
Steve pointed out Nigel's error already, but people who do not know the difference between alternate and alternative really annoy me. One or two TV presenters are guilty of this.

As Steve Shaw seems happy (most of the time) to play fast-and-loose with the English language, but considers himself an expert (a "Well-educated scientist"). I'm surprised that he's unaware that the US usage of 'alternate' is slowly becoming accepted in English.

According to Oxford dictionaries (who I would trust more than Steve Shaw):
In American usage, however, alternate can also be used to mean ‘available as another choice’, for example:
An alternate plan called for construction to begin immediately rather than waiting for spring.
This American use of alternate is still regarded as incorrect by many people in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 05:01 PM

"This American use of alternate is still regarded as incorrect by many people in Britain."

You said it, Nige. Remind me - which side of the pond do you live on?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 05:56 PM

He is also a pompous oaf!
        Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:17 PM
"you appear to have forgotten that the job of dictionaries is to reflect, not to judge. A dictionary can declare that a term has become so commonly used that it's become "standard." But that doesn't mean that those of us who want to preserve nuance have to accept it. You are perfectly free to use the word "irregardless." It's a word because people use it as a word. But it isn't a word you'll ever hear me using. Hopefully, you neither. Your dictionary doesn't say that "razed to the ground" is "fine." It says that the term is in common use and, non-judgementally, calls it standard English. But dictionaries are never arbiters. That isn't their job. Worth remembering by those whose last resort is to a book that is merely the work of a fallible human replete with his own idiosyncrasies. I've explained what "raze" means. Why not do as I did - resort not just to dictionaries (I did) but also to books specialising in the use of English (I have four). Not one supports your defence of the deliberate degradation of a perfectly good word.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 07:39 PM

And that has what exactly to do with Nigel's accidental solecism, Iains? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 02:45 AM

When I first mentioned rationimg I did so simply saying if you are trying to address a mismatch between supply and demand you can do so at the supply end by stockpiling or the demand end by rationing. That does not necessarily mean government issued booklets, and almost certainly would not because of the popitical cost. But that does not mean there would not be rationing. For example when Tescos limited people to two lettuces at a time on Feb 2017 the Independent actually uaed the word 'rationing'and I dont think many objected or thought the word inappropriate. It is, I think, quite likely supermarkets will impose that sort of rationing for "the duration'. Some people seem to think will just be a few days at most
But it aeems at least possible it is far longer to me. It is no simple matter to rework sources and delivery paths.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 04:21 AM

" It is no simple matter to rework sources and delivery paths."
Quite possibly true. But as said elswhere, it is the function of government to plan for all eventualities. The time frame for seeking alternative sources and routings has existed since the referendum result was known. There should be no excuse for not achieving a painless transition unless the plans contain undetected errors.
The recent scare stories about possible medicine shortages is really more a case of EU pricing structure and a a new regulatory system within the EU taking place in 2018. Brexit is merely the icing on the cake and heavily rationed icing at that!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 04:40 AM

DMcG,
That does not necessarily mean government issued booklets, and almost certainly would not

So no government imposed rationing.
Thank you for making that clear.

To be honest, I now think it more likely we will get a deal, and so the question of stockpiling is perhaps less important.

This is the good news Rag keeps asking for. No rationing, no stockpiling and a deal seems likely even to you Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 05:36 AM

According to the Sunday Times, the government has drawn up plans for the army to deliver food, fuel and medicine in the event of no deal.

The reason I think there will be a deal is that the UK is now likely to concede almost everything apart from some window dressing (to be agreed). With pragmatists in charge of the negotiations rather than true believers, the chances of the deal breaking down for ideological reasons are lower.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 05:58 AM

There would be a lot of severely hacked off tanker drivers if the army take over fuel deliveries. The fiasco of the army and green goddesses would soon nip that idea in the bud. I rather doubt too many army personnel hold a Class A Commercial Drivers License (CDL), with tanker and Hazmat endorsements.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 06:11 AM

All along I've hoped that wise heads would get together so that brexit couldn't become an election issue and we could have an honest conversation about it. Labour is already in favour of at least some form of customs union and single market membership. I'm sure that the overwhelming mass of MPs on all sides agree with that. This country needs the Tories, just for once, to see that this would be far and away the best thing for the interests of the country, save for abandoning brexit altogether, and act on it. A bit of political unity is the only way to get us out of this morass. Of course, it won't happen. We've been hit by a double whammy to end all double whammies. First, a completely pointless and ill-advised referendum. Then a body of politicians who would rather play party games than honestly confront the apocalypse that's about to swallow us up. We need leadership informed by vision, but we haven't got it. A few months to go and minds have yet to be concentrated...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 06:39 AM

There should be no excuse for not achieving a painless transition unless the plans contain undetected errors.

Interesting. So if the transition is painful, how do you propose to hold them to account? And do you mean if it is painful for the country generally, or is it limited to whether you are personally affected?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 07:03 AM

" First, a completely pointless and ill-advised referendum."

Don't be even more ridiculous than usual. Why do you insist on phrasing your opinions as emanating from the right hand of God?

Just remember a majority voted to change the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 08:08 AM

I'm sure that the overwhelming mass of MPs on all sides agree with that.

Probably true and always was, but not true of the electorate.
If it happens, a single issue populist party will stand at the next election to complete Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 09:06 AM

"Majority" = 38%. My 'O' Level grade 3 maths wasn't much use then.

I suppose insecurity and some kind of mental condition can cause people to become gratuitously abusive towards someone making a perfectly civil post. Make an appointment with someone, Iains. You are unwell.

As has been tediously pointed out here many times, we elect MPs to make difficult and complex decisions, paying them to do their homework and attend to armies of researchers. It doesn't matter that the electorate don't always agree. The electorate may well not be qualified to decide. If you let the electorate decide we would certainly still be hanging and quite likely flogging people, or putting them in the stocks, and forcing young men to do national service "because it wasn't like this in my day" and sending black people and Pakistanis "back to where they came from." Let's have referendums on everything! Jesus or Barabbas!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 09:27 AM

If the electorate feel they are not being listened to over this, another Farage or worse will emerge and they will vote for him just as they did to get a referendum in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 09:41 AM

"My 'O' Level grade 3 maths wasn't much use then."

Obviously not!

As a totsl aside the threat to ban the UK from Irish airspace is a bit of a joke. From the Journal IE:

"When last year Russian bomber aircraft – one reportedly carrying an inert nuclear device – entered Irish controlled airspace with transponders switched off, these aircraft were intercepted by RAF fighter planes and shadowed as they probed our ‘air defences’ and reaction times.

With no primary radar to speak of and no Irish Air Corps aircraft capable of meaningfully intercepting or shadowing such intruders, our airspace is undefended and unmonitored.

The Russians have clearly identified Irish airspace as Europe’s weakest link in terms of surveillance and defence capability. Let’s hope terrorists, intent on hitting American, British, French and other European civil aviation targets have not reached the same conclusion.

Therefore we rely on Britain and the RAF to provide security in our skies. So far the deal sounds sensible, however unpalatable, given our lack of infrastructure and capability."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 10:30 AM

"As has been tediously pointed out here many times, we elect MPs to make difficult and complex decisions, paying them to do their homework and attend to armies of researchers. It doesn't matter that the electorate don't always agree. The electorate may well not be qualified to decide"

No shaw as usual you are being your conceited self and voicing opinion as fact.

Mp's define their role thus:

The Role of an MP
MPs have responsibilities to three main groups: their constituents,   Parliament and their political party. One MP is elected to the House of Commons by each of the UK’s 600+ constituencies. MPs’ duties in
Parliament include participating in debates and voting on legislation and other matters. They may also be members of committees examining new laws or the work of government departments. Some have a role as a minister in government or a spokesperson in opposition. MPs can   help   their constituents   by advising on problems (particularly those that arise from the work of    government    departments),    representing the concerns of their constituents in Parliament and acting as a figurehead for the local area. MPs usually support their party by voting with its leadership in the House of Commons and acting as a representative for the party in their constituency.

There. That has corrected it for you, by quoting from the hoss's mouth.


I see you have added psychycobabble to the list of you innumerable unsavoury traits. Such as demeaning, belittling, taunting and provoking in your arrogant, pompous, boasting manner of posting to all that hold contrary views to yours.

Time you cleaned up your act old boy, it is getting somewhat tiresome.

and finally the electorate are qualified by satisfying the requirements for enfranchisement.Nowt to do with IQ or understanding.

Do   you not like the idea that a bunch of what you label as thickos can vote against your choice and thereby negate your vote? A somewhat hypocritical character deficiency do you not think, considering the PC persona you try to project elsewhere on this forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 10:31 AM

Steve,
we elect MPs to make difficult and complex decisions, paying them to do their homework and attend to armies of researchers.

So why do you on the Left not allow Labour MPs choose the leader?
And why did all the elected MPs vote for the referendum that caused all this?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 10:50 AM

Another Farage may emerge, eh? Well the last one tried seven times and couldn't get elected. We really don't do Farage in this country. I can confidently predict that "another Farage" would be a damn sight better option than that of our leaving the EU in any case. I'd also remind you that Farage had been around for decades - he didn't just crawl out of the woodwork just before the referendum. Dunno about you but I don't see any new Farage anywhere on the horizon. You're fearmongering. It's become abundantly clear that brexit would be a complete disaster and that your Tory lot can't extricate us from the mess. It's time that our politicos started to do what they know to be the right thing - quit acting in their party interests, start acting in the country's interests and abandon brexit. We'll get over it. Least of all the possible evils.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 11:07 AM

You're a sick man, Iains. Back to blanking you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 11:39 AM

From: Steve Shaw

"This American use of alternate is still regarded as incorrect by many people in Britain."

You said it, Nige. Remind me - which side of the pond do you live on?

I reside in Wales, and am quite capable of understanding English. "Still regarded as incorrect by many people in Britain." I suppose you are unable to read into that the fact that the usage is also regarded as correct by some of the people in Britain. The English language is still a living language (it changes and grows), and has a great number (I would say 'the majority' but that is another word which you have problems understanding) of which come from other languages. That some are now coming to us from American English should not come as a surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 12:00 PM

I'm a fan of American English, especially of American spellings, many of which actually predate the British versions, and have said so many times on this forum. But there isn't a single good reason why "alternate" and "alternative" shouldn't retain their entirely distinct meanings. Allowing them to converge represents a degradation and a loss of nuance. On the whole, your usage of "alternate," which I believe was unconscious and unthinking, is regarded as capricious in this country. Technically, it isn't exactly incorrect as it's becoming more common in use, and it's wot people say wot's important. Of course, it's also possible that you did it deliberately in order to be perverse and contrary, but I doubt it. Anyway, I blame The Monkees for "alternate."

And I hate to tell you, but three out of four of my use of English books, which always distinguish between British and American usage, agree with me, not you, about this. The other one doesn't mention the matter at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 12:18 PM

"You're a sick man, Iains. Back to blanking you."


I hope you mean it this time!
Happinness, Happiness

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 12:50 PM

Another Farage may emerge, eh? Well the last one tried seven times and couldn't get elected. We really don't do Farage in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 12:56 PM

UKIP won the last Euro elections, and promised a referendum if elected to power.
We will never know what would have happened if the other 3 parties had not suddenly offered a referendum too.

There is already a lot of anger about the "Brexit betrayal" and someone is bound to seize on it.

There is a tendency everywhere for electorates to turn against their ruling political elites who ignore them.
That is not scare mongering. Look at EU, USA and the referendum here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 01:24 PM

Good heavens, a moment of agreement! Not that you said so when I posted this, but there you are


From: DMcG - PM
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:43 AM

As I said earlier, I don't see a revitalisation of UKIP out of this: I fear that a much darker party might be coming up, with a manifesto to weaken the judges, the House of Lords, and all checks on the government - which they would hope to be them. They will do so, not so much based on the EU, but by playing on the anger of all those who feel cheated in any way. And their support could be very evenly spread throughout every constituency.

The next election might be a very dangerous time. I very much hope I am wrong.



There is not total agreement, though: that would be too much to expect. I think that risk is there WHATEVER the result of the Brexit negotiations, whereas it looks like you think it is only a risk if your preferred Brexit does not happen.

Steve is right that in the past Britain has avoided this path. I hope he is also right that we continue to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 01:40 PM

Anyway, I blame The Monkees for "alternate."
Don't blame the Monkees. The record was re-titled for UK release by their record label (RCA).
Apparently the original title "Randy Scouse Git" was considered unsuitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 02:17 PM

whereas it looks like you think it is only a risk if your preferred Brexit does not happen.

Nothing to do with my preference. The anger you spoke of relates to the referendum result not being fully acted upon.

Steve is right that in the past Britain has avoided this path

Apart from the referendum result, and apart from the success UKip started to gain before the other parties copied their promises, or pretended to. Even so they won 12.6% of the vote in the 2015 election.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 02:28 PM

The establishment is pro-EU.
The populist revolution seen in Europe and elsewhere is anti-establishment. That is why it is so dangerous to signal that the anti-establishment referendum result may be ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 02:43 PM

The cost of driving an artic from Holyhead to Hull the nearest port for onward traffic to the EU is approx 150 pounds (sterling) the cost on the return journey will be the same. So unless the ferry companies charge more than 300 pounds (sterling) for a longer sea journey there will likely be little financial impact for the freighters.
And before anyone asks, the time differences will make not a great impact either. you still have to pay a driver whether he/she is driving or sitting on a ferry, this in conjuction with less wear and tear on the wagon, less time spent at a port of entry (Iains the EU will gear up for this) the new ferries may well be of benefit to Ireland.

Of course the time differences will have an impact. The longer the delivery takes the less deliveries can be made. The lorry can only be doing one journey at a time.
Also, if the new ferries are likely to be of benefit to Ireland then why has no one done this before?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 02:49 PM

It is a dangerous path to be going down, to ignore the wishes of the people. Chickens always come home to roost.


https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/03/08/the-rise-of-european-populism-and-the-collapse-of-the-center-left/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 02:56 PM

I'm not talking about ignoring it, old chap. I'm talking about reviewing it and reversing it in the light of the two disastrous years since the referendum. In the light of adverse experience. In the light of what we know now that we didn't know then (though we should have), about unintended consequences apropos of that border, for example.   About acting in what would plainly be the interests of the country instead of being bone-headed about the mythical "will of the people" ("people" meaning 38% of em). We could instead, of course, always go to hell in a handcart made of misplaced principles...

Then, Nigel, the name of the song should have been "Alternative Title."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 03:43 PM

"Iains the EU will gear up for this) the new ferries may well be of benefit to Ireland."
They may well be, if the EU continues to be bone headed, However, as has been clearly demonstrated, should those ferries be of benefit there will be a considerable additional cost to Ireland. They had also better get their skates on. Ships do not fall of trees, especially specialised ro ro ones. Remember 50% of irish supermarket products come from the UK.

Remainiacs are so busy listening to scare stories they overlook the fact that stalling talks hits both ways.

a scare at bedtime

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 04:35 PM

The English language is still a living language (it changes and grows),

Why then, dear Nigel, do you insist that the words used on here mean only what you understand them to mean? When I said that people put things differently and everyone understands what they mean, your partner in crime derided the idea. Yet here you are now championing the idea that words may change. Tsk, tsk. It couldn't be that there is one rule for you and one to everyone else could it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 04:39 PM

No one overlooks any such thing, as far as I am aware. But once again, it looks like nothing apart from trade registers with the leave supporters. I have said all along the the EU position involves trade and social and polical considerations. The absurd comment has been made that only trade has been spoken about, not social and polical. Anyone who says that is blind to the fact that the Irish border, for example, is politically and socially important to the EU and has been a key factor from the start.

So yes, the Brexit deal will hurt the EU economically. But they might decide that is s still the least cost taking these other concerns into account. Their decision, not yours, mine, or the UK governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 06:14 PM

When it comes go who hurts who, you brexit Empire boneheads, it would pay you to remember two things. Numero uno, there are eight times as many of them as there are of us. That means, boneheads, that they can absorb a damn sight more disadvantage than we can. It's transparently obvious that they don't want us to leave. But they have far more ability to cushion the losses than the little ol' UK. Second, they have the economy of scale when it comes to international trade that we will not have once we leave and become a weak little isolated nation that doesn't really make stuff (and wot we make is too uncompetitive to sell anyway). Plus, boneheads, they have all their trading deals in place, whereas little old us have got to start from scratch. No probs, then, eh, brexit boneheads? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 06:31 PM

Dear Nigel with his linguistic difficulties makes for a welcome diversion in this otherwise tedious thread, Dave (though I do try my best to contribute to the substantive, tha knows). He is tediously stiff in his manner and is way too concerned with minutiae, when most of us can relax into our semi-informal posting mode (though we have to be careful as there's always a keefie about). The trouble with the Nigels of this world is that they set themselves up all too easily for nastily-hawkish people like me to gleefully attack them, as soon as they attack us, as they constantly make errors, probably by trying too hard. It's like playing a tune or singing a song: if you worry over-much about making a mistake, you'll make a mistake, sure as eggs is eggs. I could easily go over my own posts here and find hundreds of errors, but I won't, and in any case I care not a jot. Bring it on, Nigel. But you can't win, so maybe I'm giving you bad advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 06:34 PM

"When it comes go.." Bugger. Sometimes, like the bloke with the severely bent willy, I don't know whether I'm coming or going...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:07 AM

A tedious thread? I wouldn't disagree. Brexit was and is a topic sold with great sweeping hand gestures, sunny uplands and a when-I'm-gone-all-this-will-be-yours spirit. But the reality is all in the messy detail, which tends to be tedious.

For example: one suggestion for overcome the electricity supply for Northern Ireland is to send thousand of generators. A real Dunkirk little ships idea, a great dramatic solution.

But then you add in the reality. How much fuel do these need a day to power all of Northern Ireland? Where is that fuel coming from? How do we set up the distribution network to make sure the generators do not run out? Echoing a comment of Iains, where do we get all the tanker drivers, since the ones we have are busy doing their day job? And what will all that cost? Tedious questions, all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 03:55 AM

DMcG, you believe every scare story. Both sides of the border generate power but exchange it to smooth out supply. Both sides would be stupid to change that arrangement, but if the EU was that stupid NI would only struggle with peak demand occasionally. Why do you suggest any problem with fuel? Now you are making up scares.

Anyone who says that is blind to the fact that the Irish border, for example, is politically and socially important to the EU and has been a key factor from the start.

You seem to be blind to some facts. Britain will not impose border infrastructure. We can manage without it. The Republic would be stupid to let EU force them to do it. It will not happen whatever they say.
The main road crossing is all that could be controlled anyway. The other 200 crossings along the 300 mile border could never be. It is all just scare tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 03:57 AM

"For example: one suggestion for overcome the electricity supply for Northern Ireland is to send thousand of generators. A real Dunkirk little ships idea, a great dramatic solution."

Ho Hum!!!!!!! more poorly researched comments!

Reality:
In 2014 about 45% of electricity was generated from natural gas, 96% of which was imported from Scotland. Most of that gas originated in the North Sea with Continental Europe and Liquified Natural Gas (LNG) imports to Britain making up the balance.
The coal-fired electricity generating station at Moneypoint(Co Clare) supplied 14.3% of the electricity needs using coal imported from Columbia .

About 32% of the electricity was generated from Irish sources in 2014. These were wind, peat, hydro and other renewable sources (biomass, biogas and wastes)

In the same year (2014) Ireland imported about 7.6% of electricity from Britain via the East-West interconnector.( The East–West Interconnector is a high-voltage direct current submarine and subsoil power cable which connects the Irish and British electricity markets.
Power rating?: ?500 MW)

Northern Ireland trades electricity with the Republic of Ireland to which it is a net exporter. (via the north south interconnector infrastructure)


so the above point made is ??????????????

The link below is several years old but I cannot find any recent data to radically change the picture.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/ireland-s-energy-crisis-1.2111299

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:07 AM

Thanks Ians. NI also has an electricity interlink to Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:13 AM

I am reminded of an old joke. A farmer discovers one of his chickens has been laying eggs in an adjacent field so he knocks on his neighbour's door and asks if he can collect the eggs.

"No," says the neighbour, " they were laid on my land so they are my eggs. "

And so the dispute goes on until the farmer calls on the old village tradition of a kicking contest in which both men stand face to face, legs akimbo, and take turns at kicking each other in the balls until one can take no more. As the farmer first raised the issue, he takes first kick and lands a belter on the neighbours family jewels with his size 12 hobnail boots. The neighbour crumples and is left writhing on the floor in agony for about half an hour. Eventually he wobbles to his feet, dangley bits still throbing, and groans,

"My turn now."

" Nah," says the farmer, "you win. Keep the eggs."

I suppose we lost and have to get over it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:19 AM

" Provisional data for 2017 show Northern Ireland import and export volumes were similar and also, again, overall export and import volumes are relatively low compared to total electricity consumption. In addition, unlike the previous three years, Northern Ireland exported more electricity to the Republic of Ireland than it received in imports in 2017"

https://www.economy-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/economy/energy-northern-ireland-2018.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:27 AM

Why then, dear Nigel, do you insist that the words used on here mean only what you understand them to mean? When I said that people put things differently and everyone understands what they mean, your partner in crime derided the idea. Yet here you are now championing the idea that words may change. Tsk, tsk. It couldn't be that there is one rule for you and one to everyone else could it?

Not at all. I acknowledge that words change, and that new words come into being, and gather acceptance. That is not the same as using words which can either accidentally, or by intent, be misleading as to the intended meaning of a post.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:31 AM

I suppose to be strictly accurate Irish natural gas production should be mentioned. However as maximising production with modern reservoir management techniques hastens the onset of depletion, the resultant contribution is largely a flash in the pan. Hence, below!

"Until 1994 all our gas requirements were met from the Kinsale gas fields. After a period of growing dependence on imported gas we can once again meet 58% to 60% of our gas requirements from the two sources of natural gas in Ireland; Kinsale (2-4%) and Corrib (56%). Without further discoveries we will be importing up to 90% of our gas needs by 2025."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:40 AM

"For example: one suggestion for overcome the electricity supply for Northern Ireland is to send thousand of generators. A real Dunkirk little ships idea, a great dramatic solution."

Ho Hum!!!!!!! more poorly researched comments

Perhaps, but not by me.   It was a Whitehall proposal and reviewed in many papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 04:44 AM

I am reminded of a poem

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:00 AM

From: DMcG -
No one overlooks any such thing, as far as I am aware. But once again, it looks like nothing apart from trade registers with the leave supporters. I have said all along the the EU position involves trade and social and polical considerations. The absurd comment has been made that only trade has been spoken about, not social and polical. Anyone who says that is blind to the fact that the Irish border, for example, is politically and socially important to the EU and has been a key factor from the start.

So yes, the Brexit deal will hurt the EU economically. But they might decide that is s still the least cost taking these other concerns into account. Their decision, not yours, mine, or the UK governments.

Strange, that seems to be exactly what the leave side have been saying all along.
There may be initial costs, but we are looking for the political benefits of becoming a sovereign nation in control of our own trade, borders and laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:46 AM

Almost all our laws are solely our business, and the small minority of our laws that are involved with the EU have been overwhelmingly agreed to by the UK. We have the power of veto over any suggested major changes in EU law. If we leave and have to adopt the US as a far more important trading partner than it is now, we will have to relinquish far more control in terms of having standards imposed on us that we currently don't agree with. In addition, we will still have to trade with the EU as our biggest trading partner yet will have no say over any changes in regulations. So much for taking back control. As for sovereignty, it would be nice if Nigel would campaign for his own party to remember the supposed sovereignty of parliament instead of their constantly trying to sideline it. Yes, DMcG, the thread has become very tedious. It's very tedious to have to keep busting these brexiteer myths over and over again when faced with the cloth-eared denial merchants. Another reason it's tedious is because its overriding premise demands mucho speculation which is being constantly regurgitated. I'm getting a bit sick of reading about lorries and ferries and new Farages, for example...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:59 AM

How sad. You could try doing something useful with your life if mudcat bores you. You are under no obligation to stay. Some would not doubt welcome your departure.
At least the subject matter is vaguely on topic, not subjecting us to recipes, babbling about weeds and interminable posts on what wine you slug back with gay abandon.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 06:03 AM

Oh, the irony...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 06:10 AM

Let me tackle this 'believe all the scares' canard.   In any serious business project you develop a 'risk register', which is essentially what could go wrong, how serious such an event would be, how likely it is and what can be done to mitigate the risk.

That is sensible planning.

It is in complete contrast to the 'headless chicken, panicking over every scare story' approach. It is a sober investigation of possibilities and thinking through what could be done to stop them *becoming* a problem. And it includes very unlikely events if the possible effect is great enough.

=====

I agree, Nigel, that some leavers, and you are one, have accepted there will be a cost to the UK in the short term. Where we lack clarity is how big a cost and how long that will be for. When the 'break even' point is, if you like. Some remainers are not convinced there is a break even point at all.

The point I was making about the EU is that the social and political dimensions actually define why their negotiating stance is what it is. They don't just insist on the four freedoms because that is a convenient negotiating position: they form the whole rationale for the EU. So a comprise on them is exceedingly unlikely, and just talking about the impact on trade on the EU is too limited a view.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 06:26 AM

Mean while what is China up to, banning winnie the pooh, trying to introduce mass surveillance

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 08:20 AM

Nigel, you are rapidly becoming a Keith. Most people understand what is being said regardless of the choice of words. Most people understand that opinions are stated without others having to put 'in my opinion'. In case of ambiguity, the context of the comment and the posters history is often a good clue as to what was meant. You either understand what was meant and choose to pick holes in it just for the sake of argument or you do not understand what is being said, in which case you do not belong in a discussion such as this.

Do you really want to be the neighbour who wins trivial points points at the cost of a severe kicking or do you want to be the farmer who knows which fight to walk away from?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 10:03 AM

DMcG,
It was a Whitehall proposal and reviewed in many papers.

No. It was supposedly in a document leaked to the FT, a notoriously pro-Remain paper. The other papers only quoted the FT.
It was just a scare story. NI is not dependent on the Republic for its electricity.

The "barges in the Irish Sea" bit should have rung alarm bells. NI has nothing but space.
Why would they do that rather than put them somewhere more convenient to link to the grid?
It was all bollocks. Just more project fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 10:05 AM

Dave,
wins trivial points points at the cost of a severe kicking

Try not to worry Dave. Your side has never managed to deliver any kind of kicking to anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 10:18 AM

I wonder how many remainiacs made a contribution to the link below, or of far greater significance, are even aware of it's existance?


https://ec.europa.eu/commission/consultation-future-europe_en

or this?


https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/reflection-paper-deepening-economic-and-monetary-union_en

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 11:12 AM

The European Commission can do no more than aspire. The power to accept or reject its aspirations lies in the hands of member states, as the second link makes clear. Large-scale policy reform is always subject to veto by even a single demurring state. There are massive stresses and strains within the eurozone. The Commission can point to them and suggest ways out. But the Commission can force no major policy adjustments on unwilling member states, and, to suggest otherwise, as neither of those links actually do as it happens, is just silly scaremongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 11:23 AM

" Large-scale policy reform is always subject to veto by even a single demurring state."
Yes. the vote is repeated until the right answer pops up.On three occasions – Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty – voters have initially rejected an EU treaty only to vote in favour of it in a second referendum.

In the time frame concerned, this does not appear to be democracy in action to me.

" But the Commission can force no major policy adjustments on unwilling member states, and, to suggest otherwise, as neither of those links actually do as it happens, is just silly scaremongering."

Funny! How did the above happen? a little judicious arm twisting behind the scenes mayhap?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 11:33 AM

Thanks for the heads up Iains, I have completed the questionairre. No doubt my answers would not please you. Regarding the reflection paper, I have as yet read only the abstract, I will read the pdf later. But the three bullet points represent a genuine way forward towards a more integrated and more harmonious Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 11:56 AM

@David Carter. I hope you find it all informative. The various position papers suggest to me the EU keeps it's forward planning six jumps ahead of the electorate.
Financial harmony and rocketing towards a United States of Europe is not a future I welcome.
This assumes of course that the disparities between the economies of north and southern Europe do not crash the Euro or that forthcoming elections do not create further tensions, leading to breakup.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:08 PM

No referendum is "democracy in action."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:15 PM

"No referendum is "democracy in action."
I think we can safely ignore the rambling. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:16 PM

Yes it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:44 PM

That settles that then.


In other words, bloody Nora... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:50 PM

"Yes. the vote is repeated until the right answer pops up.On three occasions – Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty – voters have initially rejected an EU treaty only to vote in favour of it in a second referendum."

The way that consensus works is that if agreement cannot be reached - eg by referendum, then the proposal is brought back and the areas if contention are looked at, and allowances are made before bringing it back for agreement. That way a flawed proposal can be improved rather than rejected. Of course, there are some people who think that in the EU all decisions should be only what the UK wants, and they tend to be nasty UKIP and Tory types.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:52 PM

No referendum is "democracy in action."
A bald statement with zero context, therefore meaningless.
Try again!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 02:02 PM

Of course, there are some people who think that in the EU all decisions should be only what the UK wants, and they tend to be nasty UKIP and Tory types.

And Jeremy Corbyn?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 02:14 PM

"The way that consensus works is that if agreement cannot be reached - eg by referendum, then the proposal is brought back and the areas if contention are looked at, and allowances are made before bringing it back for agreement"

You may wish to talk about a consensus but unfortunately the issue at stake is the result of a referendum. i.e a simple majority, even of one suffices. Therefore it does not matter a hoot is the losers regard the issue as contentious. They lost.
    Redrafting a proposal to hide it's true impact and resubmitting it to the electorate within a very short time frame illustrates perfectly just how little the EU can be trusted. Change the wording slightly, bamboozle the gullible and steamroller it through is how I regard the process. Blatant dishonesty that you may find acceptable, but I do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:00 PM

I would say that any prime minister who inflicted a referendum on the country because his own right-wing backbenchers were snapping at his heels and because he was running scared of Nigel Farage was acting in his party's self-interest and against the country's interests and is therefore not to be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:37 PM

I would love to be a citizen of a United States of Europe. It would be a tremendous economic power, with a vibrant and diverse culture. The idea may be ahead of the electorate, that is a problem, but hopefully the electorate can be lead towards a brighter future. The UK electorate, not so much. With them, entrenched prejudices, and a lack of ambition, are holding them back. Too many people in the UK are scared that their children will achieve more than they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:46 PM

"I would say that any prime minister who inflicted a referendum on the country because his own right-wing backbenchers were snapping at his heels and because he was running scared of Nigel Farage was acting in his party's self-interest and against the country's interests and is therefore not to be trusted."

Tell me! Did the little fabrication above start with "once upon a time"?

As Nigel pointed out many moons ago:
The referendum was not called by the coalition. It was called by parliament. The coalition only allowed the referendum to take place once it had been voted on in parliament. The referendum vote had massive support from the labour party (your 'second-largest party'). The vote to hold a referendum was passed (ayes) 544 (noes) 53. (so with 650 MPs, if the only ones to abstain were from Labour, and all the votes against were from Labour that's only (650-544) 106 Labour MPs who didn't vote for a referendum (either by voting against, or by abstention). That means (and I'll spell it out for you) that at least 150 Labour MPs voted to hold a referendum on the possibility of the UK leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:52 PM

" Too many people in the UK are scared that their children will achieve more than they have."
Actually recent trends suggest the opposite. The penalties exerted by the EU stifling economic growth in the UK means that this present generation retiring and retired will likely achieve far more than their children.Thereby reversing a trend built over several generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:57 PM

Most Labour MPs voted for a referendum because they knew that the party would be toast unless they did. So they thought. Indeed, even had every Labour MP voted against, there would still have been a referendum and the party would have gone down the pan. They threw principle out of the window. You and Keith have shown yourselves to be completely disingenuous and totally dishonest about this. The Labour Party were being held by the short and curlies and you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 06:10 PM

Realpolitik is a wonderful thing. Labour are a bunch of hypocrites. They had to follow the electorate's wishes or they would have to find a real job.

You freely admit to supporting a bunch of wasters that throw principles out of the window? SHAME on you!
I fink the only one exhibiting dishonesty here is yourself. SHAME on you again.

The only thing that comes out of this sad saga is that labour would sell their grandmothers for a mess of pottage and honour is something they sell to their mates, definitely not integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 06:20 PM

Complete nonsense. Even if one smidgeon of that was true, how does the utterly disreputable, shambolic, rudderless and totally-split asunder Tory party of the last three years measure up to that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 07:21 PM

Just not worth engaging with, Steve. Honest. It's like talking to Keith but with moo swings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 08:02 PM

The mood swings are mental illness, Dave. Seriously. Seen it just like him in one or two of my mates...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 04:01 AM

So you both switch to personal attack because you can not answer the facts.
Fact. Labour overwhelmingly voted for a referendum.
Fact. The electorate overwhelmingly wanted one, especially Labour's core voters in their heartland constituencies.

As you freely admitted Steve, Labour would have been "toast" had it refused to promise a referendum in its manifesto.
They were every bit as afraid of UKIP as the Tories were.

Labour is still as split as the Tories over Brexit, and also split over anti-Semitism even on its front bench (see today's news).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 04:16 AM

"They threw principle out of the window"

"The Labour Party were being held by the short and curlies and you know it."

No! They were being held accountable for being liars.
Remember this?

2:01AM BST 27 Sep 2007
"We will put it — the EU Constitution — to the British people in a referendum and campaign whole-heartedly for a 'Yes' vote." — Labour

"We will have a referendum on the constitution in any event — and that is a Government promise." — Tony Blair, The Sun, May 13, 2005

"Well, if it were necessary to hold a referendum, of course [we wouldn't hesitate]. I suspect that the best deal for Britain will be won, where we will get what we want, at this summit." — Gordon Brown, GMTV, June 19, 2007

"We would not agree to a deal that crossed the red lines, therefore, we did not believe a referendum would be necessary." — Later that day, Downing Street website

"The manifesto is what we put to the public. We've got to honour that manifesto." — Gordon Brown, BBC 1 Politics Show, June 24, 2007


You are not doing very well supporting labour, are you? In fact you seem to be agreeing with me!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 04:52 AM

"So you both switch to personal attack because you can not answer the facts."

So you haven't read any of Iains' posts in the last few days (especially), eh, Keith? Or do you share Iains' puerile philosophy, inherited sheep-like from Teribus, that insults and abuse from you right-wingers is always justified because you're always right and that anyone who demurs from your prejudices is automatically an idiot who deserves heaps of scorn? The pair of you seriously need to grow up and get a life. And YOU seriously need to reconsider who you get in bed with. 'Bye!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 05:52 AM

It is extreme, nasty personal attack to say we must have mental issues just because we contradict you.
Also, I am not right wing. I am at the centre and voted Labour when they occupied that position (and won elections.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 06:00 AM

Remember, you actually accuse Labour MPs of being Right Wing!

You have extreme Far Left views, and it is sad that with your collective of comrades you can dominate discussion here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 06:06 AM

The two professionals at diagnosis:

Just not worth engaging with, Steve. Honest. It's like talking to Keith but with moo swings.

The mood swings are mental illness, Dave. Seriously. Seen it just like him in one or two of my mates...

Remember mudrats: Amateurs built the ark, professionals the Titanic

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 06:08 AM

Best definition i have seen for ages.

Brexit (n)

The undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 06:33 AM

. . . to continue
. . . opposed by the equally uninformed, unable to explain why they were underrepresented in a national referendum, of which they are unable at accept the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 06:38 AM

“Trust not in Sprites nor the motivations of a Gnome.”
? Jefferson Smith, Strange Places

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 06:54 AM

Well I'm glad you think we're all uninformed, Nigel. What a cracking good argument for not having that referendum! Incidentally, what's this about "unable to accept the result?" After two years I don't see any leftie populist Farage-equivalent starting the popular uprising that Keith keeps threatening if we abandon brexit... Arguing vehemently against what is going on is not the same as "not accepting the result." It isn't August, aka the Silly Season, until tomorrow, Nigel, so stop being premature.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 07:06 AM

I predict May will   be out on her ear for betrayal of brexit. Then we will see some real action.
Appeasement did not work in the thirties - It will not work now!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 07:07 AM

Well I'm glad you think we're all uninformed, Nigel.
Read it as you will, you usually do.

I said "equally uninformed". I do not accept that those who voted Brexit were uninformed, but am putting those who voted Remain on an equal footing.
How far up or down the scale you choose to put everyone is up to you. Just don't start from the belief that one side of the argument had superiority in the level of information they had chosen to find before making their vote.

Your comments about the 'silly season', apart from trying to denigrate anyone who takes a view opposed to yours, only highlights that you have a singular view about when the silly season starts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 07:18 AM

After two years I don't see any leftie populist Farage-equivalent starting the popular uprising that Keith keeps threatening if we abandon brexit.

That is because the betrayal has not happened yet and may not.
Labour's Lord Owen expresses the same warning today in the Telegraph.
And, "populist Farage-equivalent" parties will not be lefties.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 08:40 AM

He (Owen) said there would be dire consequences across the country if elitist politicians were seen to be ignoring the will of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 08:58 AM

David Owen, once a knobhead, always a knobhead, Gang Of Four opportunist who helped to keep Thatcher in power to wreck the country, is hardly a man any of us should be attending to. He has as much credibility as Guido bloody Fawkes. Trouble with you is that you lionise anyone at all who, like a stopped clock that's right twice a day, happens to coincide with your prejudices. Some of us look for credentials first.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 09:03 AM

Another gem from Guido(the man with his ear to the ground, unlike the mudrats)
"UKIP which post-referendum was dormant is back from the dead, seeing its support rise from 3% to 8% in recent polls. Hardcore leavers don’t seem to have been put off by the alt-right turn the party has taken under Gerard Batten. The spoiler ramifications of this resurrection for Tory MPs with small majorities is an horrific nightmare for CCHQ. Zombie UKIP candidates with no hope of victory could still deprive Tory candidates of seats.

The prospect of Nigel Farage returning to the political stage and re-energising UKIP with a betrayal narrative with him as a De Gaulle type national saviour still seems far fetched to many pundits. Swing-seat Tory and Labour MPs will however dread the thought of Nigel back on BBC Question Time tub thumping"

Fantastic News! Maybe he will stop the great betrayal!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 09:10 AM

What an excellent example of ad hominem.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 09:11 AM

My post, obviously, referred to Steve Shaw's comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 09:16 AM

https://order-order.com/2018/07/18/andrea-jenkyns-point-decided-brexit-meant-remain/

STUNNING!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 09:51 AM

"And, "populist Farage-equivalent" parties will not be lefties."

Lets not mince words Keith, what they will be, and already are, is fascists.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 10:56 AM

There was no ad hominem. You can't "ad hominem" someone not here who you're talking ABOUT, Nigel, only someone you're talking TO on the forum. And please don't make me list all your latest ad hominems here. Move on, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 11:37 AM

While I don't take wiki as the absolute source that some do, it may be worth quoting:

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself

Feel free to list ad hominem attacks that you believe I have made here.
I believe it will be a very short list.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 12:08 PM

I do not "lionise" Owen, but he was a Labour Foreign Secretary and he used to be a Europhile.
You are a fool to dismiss his views out of hand, and they are widely held anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 01:25 PM

Talking about the formal theory of rhetoric like ad hominem attacks is all very well, but remember we are talking about life after Brexit. To that end, what are people's thoughts on Operation Brock fears in Kent? They only arise if we have a no deal {or we have a deal but there is some other border issue), and the duration is then dependent on how quickly we can get other mechanisms in place. The Council, who are the ones who have to implement it, after all, fear it might take years to resolve. Have our leavers anything to offer apart from hope should we have the no-deal that Nigel says is now looking more attractive than before?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 01:51 PM

The French will not doubt have similar queues with the additional aggravation of simultaneously being targeted by illegal immigrants trying to hitch a ride to the promised land.
More BBC scare stories - so much for being apolitical !!

Does that Lineker fellow wot flogs crisps set the policies as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 01:51 PM

Another issue yet to be resolved, which will be pertinent to some, revolves around the future use of the EHIC.

Time is pressing and this particular issue is yet to be sorted out,

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 02:11 PM

Those appear to be the genuine concerns of the Dover District Council. On what grounds should the BBC decide against publishing that that is the Council's view?

If you are right about the delays on France being as bad, that simply makes Just In Time processes even harder?

(Neat little ad hominem on the BBC by the way!)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 02:35 PM

Nothing to say about the ad hominem attacks by your stable mate Iains, Nigel? Anything to add to the actual subject? Or are you just avoiding any real discussion because you are starting to realise what a disaster brexit could be?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 03:47 PM

"Anything to add to the actual subject? "

One could well ask this of the gnome. He rarely if ever makes any kind of sensible contribution. He comes across as a frustrated little terrier, permanently snapping at heels. He follows his little pack of mudrats around, trying to provoke with his gormless posts. Best ignored I would say!

Anyway back to brexit. Labour seems to be distracted:

"Observer rent-a-conspiracy writer Carole Cadwalladr has stuck her foot in it yet again by incredibly suggesting that Anti-Semistism in the Labour Party is the product of paid Tory trolls and her favourite bogeymen Cambridge Analytica."

" Peter Willsman refuses to answer questions from @talkRADIO as he ignores calls from Corbyn allies to stand down today"

All this and Corbyn as leader. Oh Dear!