BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 06:51 AM

I am sure there is a correlation, but are the actions of a few morons relevant to the brexit debate.
A vote the other way would probably have induced the same actions from the same morons.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 12:45 PM

but are the actions of a few morons relevant to the brexit debate.

Yes when it becomes a public order issue. By that we (mostly politicians) look to the numbers. And Blaming the Brexit vote is not the same as clammering for another referendum, or asking for the situation to be changed to "our favoured situation".

Ask a question and you get your answers. A referendum is a question. If you don't like the answers you shouldn't ask the question. Call it unintended consequences and I will tell you you are a denier. There are no unintended consequences, only things that you didn't consider, didn't think through, didn't analyse, found to complex to figure (need any more non euphemisms?) er lets be truthful - denied, dismissed. Some people, still denying them.

In this world there is only (analogy alert) spaghetti. Pull one piece and others slither your way. That's life, get over it, and don't duck your responsibility when you gobble. And chew every mouthful like momma told you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 12:51 PM

I see no one has tried to defend David Davis refusal to allow the desemination of information, not only to us the public, but to fellow members of the House of Commons.

See my post 13.10.17 at 08.21am

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 01:06 PM

Dave, what a nasty little post.
Only a nasty person could produce such.

Mr.Red,
Yes when it becomes a public order issue.

Why? It is a public order issue not a Brexit issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 01:11 PM

Oh eh up!! the professor playing the "victim" once again. It really is time he grew up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 01:15 PM

It is a public order issue not a Brexit issue.
It could be both. They are not mutually exclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 04:19 PM

http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/multimedia/poetry-spoken-word/110-heathcote-williams-winston-churchill-great-britain-s-greatest-beast
not sure why i have posted this on this thread. i just feel we need to be reminded - we are not a great nation we are a nasty little island with some weird superiority complex. we (and i) drink too much and are institutionally and socially often racist. our captain mainwaring posturing is ridiculous
without our association with the rest of the continent we are just sad, failing and pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 04:59 PM

Speak for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 07:03 PM

Hey, Mike, for my sins I wasn’t in a p!ace where I could watch the match on Sky so I had to listen to it on Five Live. Actually, those radio commentators should all be knighted! I listened to the whole thing on the edge of my seat, then, right at the end, one of the commentators remarked on what a disappointing spectacle it had been. Well it didn't come across that way on the wireless at all! Anyway, honours even. United, great defence. Liverpool, great going forward, shaky defence but where’s the firepower!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 07:14 PM

And I’ve said it before, maybe in different words, and I’ll say it again. Pete, you’re a great humanitarian and an amazing corrective to some of the unthinking, ignorant philistinism we see on here from the likes of akenaton. I’ve played traditional music for decades and, naively, used to think that folkies were sensitive people, often idealistic maybe, nearly always a bit leftie, always sympathetic and inclusive. This place has gone some way towards disillusioning me. Maybe there’s a decent silent majority out there... Of course, there are lots of good guys and gals here too. But too many of the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 03:51 AM

I don't know, Steve. All the folkie things I've been involved in have been much further left than society in general, but equally there have always been some who aren't. I know someone who has a song about being the only Tory in the folk club.

And I think their presence and criticisms are essential. I said below that I have more respect for those who say Brexit will have problems but on balance they still think it right than I do for those who think it is getting better every day in every way. The same is true for left wing policies: I have more respect for those who realise the cost but think that is worth bearing, than who don't think about it. Let me give an example: at the moment there is a movement to get rid of the 55p per minute phone charge for the Universal Credit help line. I agree - it should go. But these things do not run entirely free. If these costs are offset something will give, either in funding for something else the government does, or income to the phone company, which will probably end up or contribute to some poor soul near the bottom losing their job. That is a hard thought, but in the full understanding it may happen I think the 55p charge should go.

We see the same thing the whole time with NICE: a drug is turned down as too expensive, so a campaign is mounted, pressure is put on the government and the committee and somehow the money is found. The campaigners rarely face up to the fact that in the process they have almost certainly increased the pain and suffering of some other group.

So we need critics to make sure we are properly aware of the implications of decisions we make, because none of us have a full understanding of the issues that might arise. Now it is true that too many of the right stop when they have worked out the balance sheet implications, but some think beyond that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 04:06 AM

Yes, he is, Raggy. I had forgotten that everything has to be about him. I shall try to go back to giving my opinion and making the point just the once.

Thanks for reminding me

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 04:43 AM

Agreed, DMcG, but let's not forget that there are some extremely wealthy people in this country who don't pay their fair share of tax, and our main political parties are obsessed at election time with telling us how tax-cutting they are. One for you nineteen for me is a damn sight fairer than charging people without money 55p a minute to ring a government helpline. Something in between that isn't currently happening would be good.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 05:51 AM

Yes when it becomes a public order issue.

Why? It is a public order issue not a Brexit issue.

we are correlating effect and observation. And laying down possible causes. Deny it and the situation gets worse. Fail to debate it and the situation gets worse. Politicians of all stripes jumped on one side of that one PAL!
We are not doing the hugely humorous equivalent of blaming God's (whoever she is) retribution on Trump for recent hurricanes. We are looking at everything and debating the most significant. Deniers will state "relevance" citing the virtue of the correlation with doubts over cast iron proof of cause.

Declare yourself. Are you a denier, a sweeper under the carpet or an objective pragmatist?

Brexit is not a simple issue. It affect more than tiny minds. Wait for food price hike caused by Global Warming compounded by Brexit/"value of pound" and deny either when it suits! But it won't make it go away.

When I was inventing stuff &/or programming (still am) and had to debug it, I never ever managed to solve a problem by denying it. Tried a few times, and it bit me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 07:09 AM

Hi Steve

Sorry you couldn't watch the game.

I did and it was exciting in parts, mainly when Liverpool were attacking - which was for most of the game.

I think the criticism was because there were no goals. I think Liverpool just shaded it. United came for a point and achieved that.

The game was tense with neither side aware of the tradition of tight games between two great teams.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 07:10 AM

Dave and Raggy, Dave's nasty little post has been deleted.

Mr. Red,
I am not a "denier."

There have been hate crimes associated with brexit, but we should not be influenced by such morons.

Morons do their moronic thing.
They also do it over such issues as abortion and animal experimentation.
We should never let them deter us from discussing these issues, or from trying to reach the right decisions based on intelligent discussion.
The antics of morons are not part of this debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 12:27 PM

Peteaberdeen, your education, knowledge of history and knowledge of the world in general appears to be markedly lacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 02:07 PM

In posting that and saying nothing with any content I'd say that your manners are sadly lacking. What has Pete ever done to you?

"Brexit is not a simple issue."

Too right it isn't. Yet that's how it's been sold to us since the vote. "The British people have given us a simple instruction: we are leaving the EU." So simple. To hell with the implications. Totally undemocratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM

The vote was "IN" or "OUT".........the democratic answer was "OUT" doesn't come any more simple than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 02:25 PM

QED.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 02:37 PM

Even today 15 months after the vote we still are unaware of the implications of leaving the EU.

Not only are we still unaware of the implications but studies made into the subject are being withheld from not only the general public but the MP's we selected to serve in the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 02:56 PM

Dave and Raggy, Dave's nasty little post has been deleted.

I do not believe it was nasty. Truthful maybe and the truth does sometimes hurt. As far as I am concerned that is the end of the story but I suspect you will try to draw it out to make you the victim once again. Most of us are on to your little game Keith and will no longer play along.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 03:05 PM

cheers steve, i do try not to get personal here (mostly) i reckon usually when someone gets insulted it says more about the insulter than the insultee. anyway, i may not know very much but i am capable of understanding that leaving the EU is far more complicated than in/out. any responsible government would do its best to negotiate the best deal it possibly can for 100% of the british people. stomping off in a jingoistic huff will be bad for all of us. obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 03:42 PM

Unfortunately, the dishonest "no deal" groundswell being whipped up by the snarly Tory right is intended to stem the daily bad news, instead painting the EU as a bunch of obstinate, unreasonable bullies. The way these non-negotiations are going, thanks to the buffoon Davis and his unmerry men, the people of this country will turn against brexit, and the buffoons know it. Dishonesty piled on dishonesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 04:27 PM

actually, i'm quite hopeful we may end up with a better deal. i read that a sizable minority of tories will side with the rest of the house to argue against the no deal nonsense. sadly (and predictably) they can't be seen to side with corbyn but will co-operate with his backbenchers in the house. i guess the more rabid brexiteers won't be happy but a bit of realism won't do them any harm. so it will meander on for a few more years until we wonder why we are bothering and then, embarrassed, we will quietly drop the silly idea. of course, the 'nicotine-stained man frog' will croak a bit and stand for election again.....well maybe, we shall, nae doubt, see.....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 03:09 AM

Dave,
I do not believe it was nasty.

It was nasty enough to need deleting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 03:34 AM

I am pretty sure it was just for the bad language, for which I apologise, but no one will ever know will they. I shall refrain from using the phrase coined by our erstwhile colleague from now on and just say that only half the phrase in point was true. Henceforth you shall be Keith 'one half' A.

:D tg

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 03:50 AM

Yet another post about me the victim ............ yawn.

How's about posting something about how well the Brexit negotiations are going................

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 04:06 AM

John McDonnell on Marr:

    “I will not countenance no deal, I’m not willing to countenance that, I don’t think it’s a realistic option…”

Labour would accept any EU deal, however punishing. Great negotiating tactic guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM

Hilary Clinton is not so certain on the benefits of Brexit or to put it more succinctly, she is certain, of their lack. And whatever you think of her she knows about politics. And is unfettered with catching votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 04:27 AM

What else did he say ........ I very much doubt that is all he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:05 AM

Actually that is fine as a negotiating stance. It does not mean that any deal the EU puts forward will be accepted. And there is a lot to be said for adopting a stance the other sides believes rather than one they suspect may just be a bluff.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:07 AM

Let’s have a little think about the vacuous mantra “no deal is better than a bad deal.”

Good deal: give me five quid and I’ll change your wheel for you (both sides happy).

Not a good deal: give me 50p and I’ll change your wheel for you (he’s happy but I’m fleeced, though at least not walking away with nothing).   

No deal: Bugger off and find some other mug to change your wheel for you. I’ll find someone else who needs a wheel changing. If I can, of course. They may only give me three quid, if can actually find them, but I’ll have to take take the risk (he simply shrugs, as there are plenty of tyre bays around, but I’m well miffed - and worried about going away empty-handed and the prospect of getting only bad deals from now on).

A bad deal worse than no deal: I’ll change your wheel for you AND I’ll give YOU a quid.

Well now, tell me how we are ever going to arrive at a bad deal worse than no deal. David Davis and co. may well be a feckless bunch of clowns but even they couldn’t achieve it. It’s a deal or it’s not a deal. The bad deal worse than no deal stuff is just bunkum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:33 AM

Not a good analogy.
No deal means WTO trading, which is how we already successfully trade with the rest of the world and how the rest of the world trades with each other.

It would be nice to have free trade with EU, but not at any price.

Dave, if your post was not nasty even without the obscenities, why not rephrase it?
I will be happy to respond if it is not deleted first.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:40 AM

Well now, tell me how we are ever going to arrive at a bad deal worse than no deal. David Davis and co. may well be a feckless bunch of clowns but even they couldn’t achieve it.

I am not convinced that last bit is true. As my father used to say "Remember there are few things so bad that with a little effort they cannot be made worse.'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:53 AM

To be honest, Keith, it was so unimportant I have forgotten what it was even about apart from the reference your previous epithet.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 07:25 AM

Ah, you ould cynic, DMcG! I suppose we shouldn't put anything past this lot. The point is, Keith, that we are being sold the idea that no deal would be a good thing. This is a subtle way of painting the EU black and stemming the constant flow of bad news from these non-negotiations. I'm not surprised you can't see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 07:54 AM

Of course No deal is better than a Bad deal, even if the Labour party would accept a bad deal.
We have all the aces, the EU are terrified that their Four "Freedoms" are about to be ditched. The Union is about to implode, if we make it clear that we will not be blackmailed, the EU will embark on a damage limitation exercise.

But personally I would like to see No Deal, as it will come to that at some point in the near future.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 08:21 AM

I don't follow, ake. You list all the reasons why you think we could get a good deal and then say you prefer no deal. Even if your premise is true that we would have to move to no deal eventually, getting a good deal now and using it and the time to prepare would seem much more sensible than going into a no deal with a lot of things unsorted, like the borders and airline landing conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 08:37 AM

No deal would be a disaster. Business, science, the fate of EU nationals living here would all be affected badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 10:11 AM

Steve,
The point is, Keith, that we are being sold the idea that no deal would be a good thing.

We are not. You made that up.
It would be better for both sides if free trade was agreed, but not any kind of disaster for us if not.
It is certainly not worth £90b of our money. That would be a bad deal worse than no deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 10:28 AM

It is certainly not worth £90b of our money

That is comparing a one off cost against a recurring annual benefit. A recurring benefit is always better in the long run, as long as the run is long enough. It would be a somewhat laborious exercise for me to do that, but hopefully the treasury etc are. Either way, there is no 'certainly' about ir.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 11:26 AM

Headline in todays Guardian UK Inflation set to hit five year high.

Inflation

As I have said before such inflation hits those least able to afford it hardest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 11:45 AM

No deal is a bad deal. The only good deals are the ones we ain'ta going to have. The EU are in a strong bargaining place. They is 500 million peeps, we is 60. And Germany for one, is traditionally a stronger economy than us.
Of course we could do deals with China - but they is selling, not buying.
We could do deals wiv Twitler but if you listened to Hilary Clinton you would know he is not interested in deals, or trade.
We could sell arms to some countries - they are using them up at a rate, but North Korea seems to provide serious competition, which is what Kim Jong Nam was doing before they decided he was siphoning off too much of the profits.
There are opportunities for trade around the world, but they are "lean pickin" right now. And we ain't selling too well on that front.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 11:46 AM

"That would be a bad deal worse than no deal."

Just out of interest, did ANY of you Brexiters think this through before condemning us and more importantly our children to this mess? It's just that none of you (including the goons in charge) seem to agree on how to go about this, don't seem to have a plan and don't really have a clue to what Brexit actually means. Business is getting nervous, which is the one of the only things that seems to bother Brexiteers, alongside Beefeaters, the aristocracy and British Establishment, Britannia ruling the waves and sticking it up 'em (they don't like it up 'em).

You've fucked it up so badly so far you'd rather drag everyone in the country down the catastrophic path of a no deal clusterfuck and stomp away rather than admit you were wrong and think of an alternative more people could get behind, such as a Norways-style arrangement.

Amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 11:58 AM

The EU are not in a good bargaining place.
We have a trading deficit with them, and a trading surplus with the rest of the world.
We export more outside EU than in and the gap is widening.
Loss of our contribution will leave a huge hole in their economy.
Tarifs will hurt them more than us.

Both sides would benefit from free trade, but it is not worth ?90b to us. That would be a bad deal and much worse than no deal.

Rag,
Headline in todays Guardian UK Inflation set to hit five year high.

Yes. 3%.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 12:31 PM

"The EU are not in a good bargaining place."

Another Brexiteer myth. If you believe this nonsense then so surprise you're at sixes and sevens with each other. The fact is quite of a few of your lot understand the EU is in a perfectly good bargaining position, otherwise we'd be seeing some progress, not the MayBot going grovelling to Macron because she thinks as a free marketeer she shares some sort of common aim. Let's see how that goes.

Meanwhile, the Brexiteers have organised their Chrissy do at Fuller's Brewery but there's ample parking as everyone can drive and will undoubtedly leave sober.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 12:31 PM

Talk about wishful thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 12:43 PM

No "D" getting a deal would mean remaining with Freedom of Movement and that would stop the reorganisation of society which I detailed on another thread and which is imperative if we are to retain anything like our present standard of living.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 12:48 PM

"the reorganisation of society"

Good gawd almighty. Who's drawing up this plan?

Brexiteers aren't reorganising me, they don't have a clue what they're doing (Mudcat passim).