BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 02:15 PM

Don't you mean theres a waft of sh...............


I'll get me coat

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 02:16 PM

Do you claim today that leaflet - and again I refer to the leaflet not the bus - makes no promise about payment?

It does appear to

Thank you, Keith. A little cautious, but I think I can interpret that as a 'yes'.

I'll drop this now, but the reason I have pushed it a bit it that some remainer's are fairly willing to accept both sides lied. Indeed, Steve insists we all remember how often he has said it.

Leavers are of course quite insistent the remainers lied.

But it is difficult for Leavers to admit to any occasion the Leave campaign lied. (Or at least, that is my experience. If any leaver wants to give examples where they think the Leave campaign lied, feel free.)

Now this leaflet is, as I said, from Gisela Stuart, who served as Chair and leader of the Vote Leave Campaign Committee as Co-Convenor with Conservative MP Michael Gove. So there is every reason to believe it was agreed by the top levels of the campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 02:27 PM

Glad you got it Rag...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 05:37 PM

Studying his previous form, I would say it ranks somewhat above speculation.

Many a slip and all that. You can play the odds as much as you like. It still does not make it a fact no matter how you spin it.

His responses to the budget were effete and verging on inarticulate.

Which response was that? The real one or the one on Newsnight?

The media are still trying to crucify him and people are still falling for it. As has been ably demonstrated above.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 05:42 PM

And they never learn, Dave. Trying to crucify him during the last election campaign had the opposite effect to what they intended. Repeating a failed strategy could be the first sign of insanity...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 05:06 AM

He ain't PM yet and I would be amazed if he ever was. And why do you support a man who is also signed up for brexit. Is it me losing my marbles, or you jokers?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 05:28 AM

No, he isn't PM and is in no position to do anything about the debacle that Dave the pig sticker and his shower of shits put us in. You seem to keep forgetting that speculation about what he will or will not do if and when he is in such a position is just guesswork.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 06:12 AM

If you sign up for a political party you don't have to agree with every single policy. That's why both major parties are split about all sorts of things in all kinds of ways. Both would claim to be broad churches. A key word is "political." The main aim of a political party is to get power. To do that they have to play politics. I don't know any Labour Party members that are pro-brexit. I have a sneaky feeling that, deep down, Corbyn, McDonnell and co. are virulently anti-brexit now that they've seen how things are panning out. But they can't come out and say so for political reasons, that is, it would make them immediate electoral toast, and that's what you don't make yourself if you're remotely interested in getting into power rather than spending your life as a protest group. You don't get power in this country unless you are devious and economical with the truth and generous with half-truths. With many people that translates as "these scumbags are all the same" and they turn away from politics and don't vote. But someone has to run the country and its in everybody's interest to try to follow what's going on so that the politicos stay accountable. Farage, Gove and Johnson (as well as Keith's Chancellor Of Remain), had they been fully held to account by a knowledgeable electorate, would all be sweeping the streets by now. But they've all got away with what was a shameful and disreputable few months in this country's politics.

One thing's for sure. If and when Corbyn becomes PM he won't be a one-man band. The personal attacks on him in the last election backfired very badly because people know that, and, what's more, he played politics a damn sight better than the Tories did. And, unlike Theresa May, he's untested. There's a lot of that around these days. In times of desperately awful politics it's what people turn to. Be very afraid, Tories, though probably not quite yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 07:09 AM

"The public made their choice based on all the arguments presented including this one."

Times change, opinions change. The utopia of the sunlit uplands of merry England are not the same as they are approached and the closer we get, the more we see those ivory towers are made of paper that collapse when the rain comes down, and the deep red of the sunset was the glow from a furnace to which we will all have to stoke with the stagnation of our wages and the ever spiralling inequality. Those that led us there will not suffer, they are the same establishment and corporate interests that led to believe the lie of trickle down wealth and home ownership.

We are a ship of fools, and have become irrelevant to the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 07:13 AM

If we are a ship of fools the outcome will hardly matter to us all.
(and you may count me out of such ship thank you)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 08:43 AM

I think this is a good summary of the Irish Border issue

It is from the Guardian, so will automatically be dismissed by some.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 08:58 AM

For those that do Facebook Mrs 'ardin's kid writes a good piece.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM

Both of those articles are true and astute summaries of the tragedy we find ourselves in. Unfortunately, they are unlikely to persuade the Union-Jack-Underpants Brigade who keep telling us to "Get behind are (sic) country" or tell us, as I've been told several times, we should be "arrested, marched out, and shot" for continuing to oppose BrexShit. They don't have the capacity to think that much.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:40 AM

"Corbyn is as committed to Brexit as the tories"
Any party purporting to be democratic is rightfully bound by a decision taken by referendum
The difference between Corbyn's and the Brexiteers is that (hopefully) under his leadership, Labour will attempt to make the best job out of a bad decision on behalf of all the British people while the rest will plough on regardless and blame the stupid British when it all falls apart, as it is showing every sign of doing.
The idea that the Little Englanders who led this campaign, largely on a xenophobic ticket, will take responsibility for their actions beggars belief
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:46 AM

I don't share Baccy's contempt for the people who voted to leave - unless you are involved or are actually interested in these subjects, you act on the information you are fed
That accounts for the vast majority of the people of these islands and, given the predatory nature of our politicians, who is to blame them?
The Brexit campaign was a classic example of the age-old tactic of 'divide and rule
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:47 AM

"If we are a ship of fools the outcome will hardly matter to us all.
(and you may count me out of such ship thank you)"

Don't tempt me...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:54 AM

"Any party purporting to be democratic is rightfully bound by a decision taken by referendum"

It's not undemocratic to change your mind when you come into possession of new information.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 10:00 AM

Simon Jenkins can be a bit of a loose cannon, but the "read more" link within DMcG's link is a good read (it was in G2 yesterday). It's about a village which the border runs through the middle of. It describes the horrors of life in the village before the Good Friday Agreement and the very real fears of the residents should the bridge in the village become part of a hard border, in terms of both an end to free trade and the prospect of the return of the Troubles. The piece also points out that there are over two hundred crossing points between the North and the Republic. I suppose yer brexiteers might see that as a useful potential bit of job creation...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 10:04 AM

Jim, my contempt is for:-

1) the idea those people hold that, having won the referendum, they are entitled to deny others the right to continue to oppose. Even worse, their calls for us to accept 'democracy', whilst apparently completely failing to understand that the right to oppose is at the very foundation of the 'democracy' they claim to wish to uphold! You really couldn't make it up!

2) the suggestion they frequently make, that those of us who continue to oppose BrexShit are 'unpatriotic', or 'traitors' - they clearly have zero understanding of what 'patriotism' means, or what is involved in being a 'traitor'.

3) calls for those opposing BrexShit to suffer the death sentence. That little gem tells me all I need to know about those fucktards.

And I'm in complete agreement with you on the 'divide and Rule' issue. Not just the BrexShit issue though - 'twas ever thus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 10:58 AM

I agree with Stu there, Jim. It's become clear since the referendum that brexit is going to be disastrous unless promises are broken in respect of the customs union and single market. Labour is not morally bound to continue to support brexit in my opinion, but in terms of realpolitik it has absolutely no option but to stay publicly pro-brexit. If Labour now declared for remaining, you can imagine the field day the Tories would have. There are strains. Ninety percent of Labour Party members voted remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:16 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 10:58 AM
. . . Ninety percent of Labour Party members voted remain.

Where did that 'fact' come from?
Or is it just more unsubstantiated whimsy that you would like people to accept as 'fact'?

I haven't seen that figure quoted elsewhere, and even if it had been, I don't see how it could possibly be substantiated as part of the result of a secret ballot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:33 AM

My comment about Sinn Fein deciding to take their seats in Parliament was largely tongue in cheek, but not entirely. I do not underestimate for a moment how difficult this would be for them, and some of their supporters would see it as a monstrous betrayal, but it important to remember their goal is to have a united Ireland separate from the rest of the UK, and to do this by political means.

Any hard border within Ireland puts that goal back decades or more, whereas a border in the sea makes unification far more likely. Which the government as a whole would prefer is uncertain, but the position of the DUP is clear enough. So it is very much in line with Sinn Fein's long term goal to stop DUP having the decisive votes on this matter.

I don't think it likely to happen, because the difficulties are so huge, but it looks like it could be another case of a party sacrificing its long term goals to avoid a short term cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:53 AM

: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:33 AM
. . . Any hard border within Ireland puts that goal back decades or more, whereas a border in the sea makes unification far more likely. Which the government as a whole would prefer is uncertain, but the position of the DUP is clear enough. So it is very much in line with Sinn Fein's long term goal to stop DUP having the decisive votes on this matter.

You may well be right, and I won't argue the point.
I would point out that the opposite could also be true. A 'hard' land border imposed now could mean that they have to start pushing for reunification straight away, while a 'soft' (or sea) border could mean that the subject (while made easier) could be deferred.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:56 AM

Deary deary me. The pound has fallen still further against the Euro. It must be all those wonderful productivity and growth forecasts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:02 PM

A bit of truth about the issue of the border in Ireland...

https://www.facebook.com/OpenBritain/videos/1856844897689159/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:26 PM

" Labour is not morally bound to continue to support brexit in my opinion, but in terms of realpolitik it has absolutely no option but to stay publicly pro-brexit"

Better add hypocrisy to Lanour's other failings then hadn't we?

How weird that all these remoaners do not have a political party to support them!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:30 PM

Rag, 16 hours ago,
"Pound Gets a Boost
The pound has also been moving higher not only due to the weakness in the dollar but by its own strength as well as the incoming data has been pretty strong during the last few days. The budget announcement from the UK also brought it some cheer for the pound and that is why we are seeing the pound trading clearly above the 1.33 region as of this writing."
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/market-snapshot-pound-euro-move-140931993.html

Stu,
It's not undemocratic to change your mind when you come into possession of new information.

Who has changed their mind, and what new information has emerged?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:38 PM

Keith,
Much as I usually agree with you on matters Brexit, the 1.33 quoted is for the pound against the (US) Dollar, not against the Euro.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:42 PM

"A 'hard' land border imposed now could mean that they have to start pushing for reunification straight away,"
Thye don't have to "start pushing for re-unification' - Sinn Fein is now one MP short of being the majority party, thanks largely to Brexit
The main concern is what effect all this is having on the Peace Process.
Any move to direct rule is almost certain to start filling body-bags all over again.
RISE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:51 PM

" Labour is not morally bound to continue to support brexit in my opinion, but in terms of realpolitik it has absolutely no option but to stay publicly pro-brexit"

Better add hypocrisy to Lanour's other failings then hadn't we?

How weird that all these remoaners do not have a political party to support them!

Would that be Dorothy Lanour?

The Tories also have to stick to the pro-brexit line, no matter how bleak things are looking. You see hypocrisy, I see realpolitik. They all do it. We do have the LibDems and the Greens, by the way. Your side, on the other hand, was led by a party leader who didn't even have any MPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:56 PM

"Better add hypocrisy to Lanour's other failings then hadn't we?"
You think it hypocrisy for Lanour (assume you mean Labour) to accede to the will of the majority and try to make the best of it?
Puts the attitude of your party to the people's wished into context - dunnit?
"Where did that 'fact' come from?"
Of the 560,000 Labour Party members, 49% of members think there should “definitely” be a vote on the final Brexit deal, with a further 29.4% answering “more yes than no” to the question, and only 8.8% definitely opposing it.
I don't know if this is what Steve is referring to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:09 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:51 PM

. . . We do have the LibDems and the Greens, by the way. Your side, on the other hand, was led by a party leader who didn't even have any MPs.

Which party leader would that have been then?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:14 PM

"Where did that 'fact' come from?"
Of the 560,000 Labour Party members, 49% of members think there should ?definitely? be a vote on the final Brexit deal, with a further 29.4% answering ?more yes than no? to the question, and only 8.8% definitely opposing it.
I don't know if this is what Steve is referring to
Jim Carroll

No, it wasn't that. Those figures don't even come to 80% and they relate to those who wanted a final Parliamentary vote on Brexit, which has already been agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:16 PM

"@YouGov
90% of Labour party members voted Remain in the EU referendum (3/3) (link: http://y-g.co/29h4ZdZ) y-g.co/29h4ZdZ"

".....research carried out as part of the Party Members Project funded by the Economic and Social Research Council and shared exclusively with the Guardian...showing that 87% [of party members] voted remain" [Guardian, July 17]

Two surveys, two slightly different numbers, Nige. I wouldn't lie to you, honest. The point I used the figure for stands. Very rude of you to put "fact" in speech marks when what I told you was eminently checkable. Next time, check properly before you decide to get all nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:20 PM

That wasn't what I was referring to, Jim. See above references. Members were asked the direct question, how did you vote? We all know that if you ask different questions you often get puzzlingly inconsistent results.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:37 PM

Thank you Nigel, It would seem some people can't tell the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:39 PM

PS if the pound were suddenly to start trading at 1.33 euro to the pound I for one would swap a large sum of money to my euro account !!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:44 PM

Labour's official stance is at odds with both its membership and with Labour voters in general. The problem for Labour started when they acquiesced in Cameron's original call for a referendum. You could even argue that Gordon Brown made the party hostage to fortune by mooting a referendum when he was still in power, a point repeatedly made by Teribus. Once they'd made that grievous mistake they were obliged by political reality to accept the result and vote for Article 50. I'm not making excuses, but both major parties feel obliged to abide by political realities instead of being honest and acting in the real interests of this country, which would clearly be to abandon brexit immediately. I wonder how many Tory MPs still think, deep down, that Brexit is a great idea. We could decide to stay in the single market. Or, failing that agreement, things are going to look so bad in the next few months that there could be a volte-face by both parties. But who wants things to go to the brink like that? The only way that this fiasco won't crucify this country for generations to come is for the whole shambles to be abandoned right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:49 PM

Your side's leader was Nigel Farage. And there's no need to remind me that I got Douglas Carswell's timeline wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:56 PM

The pound has soared downward by a cent and a half against the euro since Tuesday. Dunno where you're getting all this optimism from, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:11 PM

"Dunno where you're getting all this optimism from, Keith."

He read it in 'The Planet Zog News'. It's the equivalent of the Daily Mail up there on Planet Zog.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:20 PM

"but both major parties feel obliged to abide by political realities instead of being honest and acting in the real interests of this country"

No it is labour practising realpolitic- the alternative being toast-
well done and burnt to a crisp.


Jim a man of your minuscule talents on a keyboard has some audacity to highlight a spelling error of mine!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:22 PM

".....research carried out as part of the Party Members Project funded by the Economic and Social Research Council and shared exclusively with the Guardian...showing that 87% [of party members] voted remain" [Guardian, July 17]

Two surveys, two slightly different numbers, Nige. I wouldn't lie to you, honest. The point I used the figure for stands. Very rude of you to put "fact" in speech marks when what I told you was eminently checkable. Next time, check properly before you decide to get all nasty.

I did check, and couldn't find anyone claiming 90% (apart from you).
The claim is still highly unlikely. You are quoting a survey (or two) where you previously appeared to be quoting statistics which are not available, as it was a secret ballot.
Cross correlation with 'membership' of the Labour party would make it doubly difficult to find an accurate figure.
The percentages may well match up with what people claimed were their voting intentions previously, but those figures were proved wrong.

At some time you will have to accept that people mislead pollsters, either accidentally or deliberately.
Your original quote Ninety percent of Labour Party members voted remain. cannot be backed up in any reasonable way.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:27 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:51 PM
. . . We do have the LibDems and the Greens, by the way. Your side, on the other hand, was led by a party leader who didn't even have any MPs.

From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:09 PM
Which party leader would that have been then?

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:49 PM
Your side's leader was Nigel Farage. And there's no need to remind me that I got Douglas Carswell's timeline wrong.

So sorry to have to spoil your argument once again by interposing facts:
"Vote Leave" was a cross-party organisation which was designated by the Electoral Commission as the official campaign for leaving the EU.
Nigel Farage had no part in the official campaign

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:38 PM

Stop acting thick, Nigel. They were surveys, polls, taking samples. Not a secret ballot. People with metaphorical clipboards asking members after the event how they voted. They do that with election exit polls, which can prove to be a damn sight more accurate than opinion polls. I've already quoted two that gave slightly different percentages. That's what you get with surveys. One was YouGov, one was part of a Party Members Project funded by a perfectly respectable organisation. I can't tell you how they went about their surveys. On this occasion I've decided that members would have had little motivation to lie about their voting decisions and I'm up for taking the results at face value as a fair, if not super-accurate, indicator of sentiment among party members. You can please yourself. Keep gnawing away at this, Nige, but there's no meat left on the bone, honest there isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM

Are you honestly trying to tell us that Nigel Farage was not the de facto leader of the leave campaign? What planet are you on?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:46 PM

Same as the Professor - The Planet Zog.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:10 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:38 PM
Stop acting thick, Nigel. They were surveys, polls, taking samples. Not a secret ballot. People with metaphorical clipboards asking members after the event how they voted

Exactly. But you failed to mention any of that when you made your original claim, which I'll quote in full this time, just in case you try to claim it was taken out of context:
I agree with Stu there, Jim. It's become clear since the referendum that brexit is going to be disastrous unless promises are broken in respect of the customs union and single market. Labour is not morally bound to continue to support brexit in my opinion, but in terms of realpolitik it has absolutely no option but to stay publicly pro-brexit. If Labour now declared for remaining, you can imagine the field day the Tories would have. There are strains. Ninety percent of Labour Party members voted remain.

No caveats there. No "polls show that 90% . . ." or "90% of the Labour Party now claim to have voted Remain". Just a very straight:
Ninety percent of Labour Party members voted remain

Calling me 'thick' because I respond to what you put out as 'facts' (and the quote marks are deliberate, as what you are claiming now is different from what you claimed originally)is just a sign that you are losing the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:14 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM
Are you honestly trying to tell us that Nigel Farage was not the de facto leader of the leave campaign?

He played a major part in getting us the referendum, but was then sidelined when the Electoral Commission appointed the two teams to actually take control of the opposing sides of the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:23 PM

So that wasn't him posing in front of the bus with the '£350 million for the NHS' lie on the side then?