BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:33 AM

why you believe leaving the EU can do better

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:29 AM

I stated that I don’t think I could link to that would make you optimistic.

I am optimistic because I believe that UK can do better when not hampered by membership of EU.

However, I don’t think there is much chance of me converting you to optimism about Brexiy

I don't want you to convert me to anything. I just want something that will make me feel more optimistic about leaving the EU. Up to now there has been nothing at all that predicts that things will be better in any way. Surely it is not too much to ask why you believe the EU can do better. Is something giving you this belief or is it just blind faith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:29 AM

Surely the very reason we elect people to Government is so that they can ensure that the good of the country is paramount

The good of our ruling elite in this case does not coincide with the good of the people.
Unil UKIP emerged and actually won an election, the ruling elite were never going to consider the legitimate concerns of the majority of the electorate on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:14 AM

"The Brexit team did not need (nor could have) persuaded everyone that Brexit would be good for UK. It was sufficient to persuade enough to win the referendum"

Surely the very reason we elect people to Government is so that they can ensure that the good of the country is paramount. If Brexit was, or is, not the best thing for the country why on earth did people campaign for it.

And now, having won the referendum how can those same people not tell us, the voters, the benefits of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:08 AM

Nigel: I'm not sure that anything that we could link to would make you optimistic about Brexit.
Dave: That seems very much like you are saying that you cannot find anything. In which case, why did you vote for brexit?
Nigel: I am optimistic about our future.
Dave: I know you are so please share what makes you optimistic so we can all feel more confident.
The two statements you have made seem to be at odds with each other.
Nothing contradictory there at all. I stated that I don’t think I could link to that would make you optimistic.
I am optimistic because I believe that UK can do better when not hampered by membership of EU. However, I don’t think there is much chance of me converting you to optimism about Brexit, as you obviously heard all the arguments (from both sides) prior to the referendum.
The Brexit team did not need (nor could have) persuaded everyone that Brexit would be good for UK. It was sufficient to persuade enough to win the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:45 AM

Statistics would suggest the superior intelligence resides among the brexiteers.

Do they?

Terrible things facts!

They are indeed :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:41 AM

I'm not sure that anything that we could link to would make you optimistic about Brexit.

That seems very much like you are saying that you cannot find anything. In which case, why did you vote for brexit?

I am optimistic about our future.

I know you are so please share what makes you optimistic so we can all feel more confident.

The two statements you have made seem to be at odds with each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:39 AM

Is that not also what the brexit vote did to the UK? The more sensible amongst us would say changing the EU from within would be the better option!
The majority took the opposite view. Statistics would suggest the superior intelligence resides among the brexiteers. Terrible things facts!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:39 AM

The more sensible amongst us would say changing the EU from within would be the better option!
That may have been a better option, but it was not an option available to us. David Cameron tried, and was rebuffed by the EU.
Tony Blair gave up part of our rebate for the (broken) promise of a review of the CAP.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:31 AM

Can anyone provide links to articles containing good news then? Iains has managed a couple that may or may not be linked to brexit but, aside from those, the majority of predictions, even from pro-brexit press are negative. I am just looking for anything that will make us optimistic about the future.

I'm not sure that anything that we could link to would make you optimistic about Brexit. That is probably why you are in the Remain camp.

It will take time to see benefits from Brexit, but I am optimistic about our future. Any future benefits are yet to be seen, whereas the promised downsides to voting for Brexit, which we were told would be immediate, failed to occur. Perhaps the optimists have got it right this time?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:22 AM

The more sensible among us would say the EU is cutting off it's nose to spite it's face.

Is that not also what the brexit vote did to the UK? The more sensible amongst us would say changing the EU from within would be the better option!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:18 AM

"Iains, that Germany and others countries may also suffer job losses gives me no solace at all, yet another example of bad news surrounding Brexit."

intransigence knows no borders and takes no prisoners. The EU is finally being forced to acknowledge this fact.

The more sensible among us would say the EU is cutting off it's nose to spite it's face. Not a very intelligent negotiating tactic is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:17 AM

Can anyone provide links to articles containing good news then? Iains has managed a couple that may or may not be linked to brexit but, aside from those, the majority of predictions, even from pro-brexit press are negative. I am just looking for anything that will make us optimistic about the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:04 AM

, but Raggy constantly asks for links to articles reporting good news from Brexit, and there have been very few posted

For every anti-Brexit article that Rag posts, there are several pro-Brexit articles.
No-one else does what he does.
Linking to articles is not debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:57 AM

You can of course ignore if you wish Nigel, It seems to me that Breixteers are ignoring everything they don't like, which in turn is 99.9% of everything that is published.

Only if you are a Guardian reader.
Most of the press is pro-Brexit.

Only if you think the mainstream press is the entirety of things published. I am a firm believer, as you will know by now, in things like Hansard and the official documents issued by the UK and the EU.   The 99.9% is hyperbole, of course, and he should have restricted it to more solid news than opinion columns, but Raggy constantly asks for links to articles reporting good news from Brexit, and there have been very few posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:50 AM

Iains, that Germany and others countries may also suffer job losses gives me no solace at all, yet another example of bad news surrounding Brexit .......... any good news stories yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:49 AM

I agree with much of what you wrote there, Nigel. (I take it as read that you also included elections as expressing the will of the people.)

The important distinction we both draw is the distinction between the will of the people which varies constantly day by the day and the measurement of it at specific points (referendums, elections).

But that simply reveals how unreliable the idea of the expressed will of the people is. Take the measurement a month earlier or later and the results will be different. Use all your techniques of manipulation and persuasion, like Cambridge Analytica and AggregateIQ, and "the will" can be changed at the time that matters - at least, that is the whole rationale of advertising. Which is another reason that a simple majority vote is a bad idea for referenda.


But that is only part of the subject. All parties use private pooling all the time to help formulate their policies, and those are also attempts to measure "the will of the people". So we get back to whether Liam Fox goes with the will of the people, as estimated imprecisely via all sorts of focus groups and polling, or just the will of Liam Fox. And that difficulty is at the heart of our political system.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:46 AM

You can of course ignore if you wish Nigel, It seems to me that Breixteers are ignoring everything they don't like, which in turn is 99.9% of everything that is published.

Only if you are a Guardian reader.
Most of the press is pro-Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:26 AM

Very strange Express article is it not?. Purportedly about a Conservative lead in a poll (a poll which we have been told is unreliable) it spend most of it trying to raise the issue of alleged antisemitism.

Incidentally "Number Cruncher Politics interviewed 1,037 UK eligible voters online between March 27 and April 5."

Now it's a long time since I studied Statistics but even I recognise that this is hardly a representative sample.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:19 AM

But Raggy you always take a partisan view. There are 2 sides to every story.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/942430/brexit-news-germany-job-losses-eu-uk-schengen-agreement-suspension
The reality is that without agreement the EU will experience many negatives as well. This view is usually buried by the mainstream media,
but it is a reality that will not go away.
Also the political map of eastern europe is changing. This is creating cracks that need plastering. The road to federalism is gaining potholes by the day. The situation in Catalonia is still a festering sore.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:16 AM

here's Iain's link Express - Corbyn

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:10 AM

You can of course ignore if you wish Nigel, It seems to me that Breixteers are ignoring everything they don't like, which in turn is 99.9% of everything that is published.

Iains, your second link doesn't work, nor did copying and pasting it into the control bar.

However I seem to recall an argument put forward by your side that polls were totally unreliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:06 AM

"EU Commissioner, Phil Hogan"
Even if The Guardian could be considered partisan (which it is not), the opinion of an EU Commissioner would hardly be an unbiased opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 04:58 AM

I do find it strange Iains how people can cherry pick only that which they wish to hear.

Jyrki Katainen states in his response:

"It is not business as usual but negotiations with Mr Fox, Mr Davis and Mr Johnson are going quite well. I do not say there is a positive atmosphere but there is no negative attitude."

Not such a rosy picture, better than nothing but not brilliant.

He goes on to say "The future trade agreement between the EU and the UK is going to be worse than the situation today but tricky to say how good it will be."

Not at all good news.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 04:48 AM

This is an interesting one. Apparently 82% wanted to stop any US trade if it went against our current food standards. On a survey of 2000 people like this, you would typically have a margin of error of +/- 2%, but let's assume it is way out, and the margin is +/-20% (where possible!) That would still have 62% wanting no deal if the food standards were at risk.

I know Gove and co have said the standards won't be cut, but that's not my question. Nor is it whether chlorine washed chicken is safe or not.

It is whether the Brexiteers support "the will of the people" in this case as well?

"The will of the people" only gets expressed, rarely, in referendums. These have only occurred on matters of great importance constitutionally. It does not include opinion polls. If it did we would probably still have the death penalty on the statute books. Many laws get passed which are against the wishes of the majority, as expressed in opinion polls.

The 'will of the people' could just as easily be described as 'mob rule', except in very carefully considered situations.

So to answer the question, I do not support the will of the people unquestioningly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 04:46 AM

Sanity prevails. Perhaps they realise without agreement both sides suffer.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/943347/Brexit-news-member-states-European-Commission-david-davis-liam-Fox-transition-period
and


ss.co.uk/news/uk/942984/jeremy-corbyn-labour-polls-latest-plunge-tories-lead

I luv Mondays! How about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 04:31 AM

Well Nigel you are hardly forwarding the discussion yourself are you?

You may be pleased to read that Phil Hogan, Ireland's EU Commissioner will make a speech today in which he is expected to say that the UK will not change it's mind over Brexit although he will go on to say:

“One thing we have already learned from Brexit is that the UK does not have a better idea. It does not have a replacement for the union as a way to improve the life quality of its citizens, its businesses and its standing in the world,” says Hogan. The “stubborn facts” overshadow the rosy future painted by Brexiters."

A pretty damning indictment.

Phil Hogan

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 04:22 AM

From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 07:35 PM
"All this discussion about "Post Brexit life in the UK" remains speculation at present. And anything which appears to have already been agreed is still open for negotiation if agreement can't be reached on other matters."

And that is the most ridiculous thing about this complete fuck-up that you dozy bunch dropped us in to - you shit-for-brains cockwombles actually voted for nothing more than 'speculation'. You couldn't make that kind of stupidity up.

What a bunch of cocks.

You are entitled to your opinions, but so are others.
just posting lines of crude drivel does nothing to forward the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 02:47 AM

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-deal-theresa-may-us-uk-eu-chlorine-chicken-food-safety-standards-poll-a8292496.html

This is an interesting one. Apparently 82% wanted to stop any US trade if it went against our current food standards. On a survey of 2000 people like this, you would typically have a margin of error of +/- 2%, but let's assume it is way out, and the margin is +/-20% (where possible!) That would still have 62% wanting no deal if the food standards were at risk.

I know Gove and co have said the standards won't be cut, but that's not my question. Nor is it whether chlorine washed chicken is safe or not.

It is whether the Brexiteers support "the will of the people" in this case as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 07:35 PM

"All this discussion about "Post Brexit life in the UK" remains speculation at present. And anything which appears to have already been agreed is still open for negotiation if agreement can't be reached on other matters."

And that is the most ridiculous thing about this complete fuck-up that you dozy bunch dropped us in to - you shit-for-brains cockwombles actually voted for nothing more than 'speculation'. You couldn't make that kind of stupidity up.

What a bunch of cocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 04:29 PM

Here is an extract from the draft EU Withdrawal agreement that Davis and the EU presented recently;
"The colouring of the text corresponds to the following meanings: text in green is agreed at negotiators' level, and will only be subject to technical legal revisions in the coming weeks. For text in yellow, negotiators agreed on the policy objective. Drafting changes or clarifications are still
required. Text in white corresponds to text proposed by the Union on which discussions are ongoing."

You notice the UK and the EU both use the words 'agreed'and 'agreement' about the colouring? What significance to.you attach to the colouring?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:42 PM

The Independent's view on the impact of the latest US trade rules for a post-Brexit deal

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:38 PM

that they are agreed to by different extents, even though all subject to a final sign off.

Exactly, there are proposals which look likely to be agreeable to both sides, but nothing is agreed. How you can have different 'extents' of an agreement (is it 'agreed' or not?)seems like a level of hair splitting too far.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:10 PM

No need to emphasise the word 'try' in my post, Nigel: I very consciously put it in. But there are other ways to interpret the 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' clause. You can reach a conditional agreement, which is what was done with the green/amber/white sections of the last published document. A strict interpretation of the 'nothing agreed'line is that those colours mean nothing - all are equally 'not agreed'. But any sensible interpretation is that they are agreed to by different extents, even though all subject to a final sign off.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:02 PM

It is in the nature of a negotiation that a solution needs to be agreed by both sides. It may get amended a bit in the process, but the end result is shared by both.
We have NOT found such a solution. And Teresa May was saying we have a responsibility to try to find one both sides can agree on.

The point which needs to be made, yet again, is that negotiations have not yet been concluded.

All this discussion about "Post Brexit life in the UK" remains speculation at present. And anything which appears to have already been agreed is still open for negotiation if agreement can't be reached on other matters. It is the EU's insistence (written into their rules for dealing with UK withdrawal) that "Nothing can be agreed until everything is agreed"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 01:43 PM

It is what I am saying, and we have found a solution

It is in the nature of a negotiation that a solution needs to be agreed by both sides. It may get amended a bit in the process, but the end result is shared by both.

We have NOT found such a solution. And Teresa May was saying we have a responsibility to try to find one both sides can agree on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 01:23 PM

It is what I am saying, and we have found a solution.

Hopefully there will be a free trade agreement anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 01:10 PM

Do you remember Mrs May saying:
But it is not good enough to say, 'We won't introduce a hard border; if the EU forces Ireland to do it, that's down to them'. We chose to leave; we have a responsibility to help find a solution.

I submit that is exactly what you are saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 12:16 PM


The article I linked to makes plain that the the regulatory aspects of the border are a major concern.

Not a concern for UK. The government is adamant we will not have border controls under any circumstances. Good luck to EU if they try it.

If some bigots start throwing their toys out of their prams because they can't dictate who is entitle to freedom of movement and who can't then that's their problem.

Freedom of movement is not an issue. EU citizens will continue to be free to cross any of our borders. It is only the rights they enjoy that may change.

The likelihood, however, is that the government will try to apply a postcode lottery to determine the type of border each person in the UK and coming into the UK will have. If they do, then those who voted for this incompetent government need to be personally held to account by those who are discriminated against.

There is no chance of any of that happening.
These are just made up problems to instil fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 12:02 PM

We are talking about people having a different border according to where you live IN THE SAME COUNTRY. If one part of the UK has an open border, then all the UK is ENTITLED to an open border. If some bigots start throwing their toys out of their prams because they can't dictate who is entitle to freedom of movement and who can't then that's their problem.

The likelihood, however, is that the government will try to apply a postcode lottery to determine the type of border each person in the UK and coming into the UK will have. If they do, then those who voted for this incompetent government need to be personally held to account by those who are discriminated against.

I would be happy however for a tax applied to constituencies that voted leave to pay for the personal travel and shipments of goods between NI and the UK mainland, but they are probably to tight fisted tyo agrtee.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:41 AM

The article I linked to makes plain that the the regulatory aspects of the border are a major concern. Tariffs seem to be less of an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:38 AM

Part of the EU is outside the Schengen area, part of the Schengen area includes countries not in the EU. Stringent border checks for travellers within the Schengen area essentially do not exist (apart from heightened checks diue to security fears. Checks when travlling in the EU from Scghenfgen areas to non Schengen areas and vice versa are more stringent.
This may well be discriminatory but that is what the various countries have signed up to.

Today, the Schengen Area encompasses most EU States, except for Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Ireland, Romania and the United Kingdom. However, Bulgaria and Romania are currently in the process of joining the Schengen Area. Of non-EU States, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein have joined the Schengen Area. The border-free Schengen Area guarantees free movement to more than 400 million EU citizens, as well as to many non-EU nationals, businessmen, tourists or other persons legally present on the EU territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:38 AM

Borders in the sense of customs barriers, Nigel. If brexit is to go ahead there will have to be a fudge apropos of the Irish border with Northern Ireland otherwise we're in big trouble. And that is all there is to it, and it's quite a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 07:41 AM

There has to be the same type of border with the EU at every point of entry in the UK, otherwise it is discriminatory. That is all there is to it.

WHY?

The EU does not have standard borders on all of its peripheries.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 07:24 AM

There has to be the same type of border with the EU at every point of entry in the UK, otherwise it is discriminatory. That is all there is to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 05:00 PM

Meanwhile, April 18th is looking as if it is the next significant date in the negotiations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 04:18 PM

I agree the 38 sounds high, but it comes from stats on the largest dealers, apparently, and I imagine if you remember many showrooms have associated service facilities maybe it is right. In any case as that is based on actual figures I would not overrule it based on just my opinion.

Reading through stuff on car sales over the last 12-15 months the relatively poor sales have been blamed in many things, one of which is consumer confidence over Brexit. That's not proven of course, and it might be completely unfounded.

I am not convinced car showrooms will be too affected by automation, though it will to some extent of course. But a car sale is a much more a matter of person-to-person persuasion: it is a different experience than picking an item out of a catalogue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 03:34 PM

But I would say the bulk of the bad news within the article is more a function of progress than Brexit. The showroom closure is entirely unrelated to Brexit I would argue and a loss of 38 jobs per showroom is an exaggeration do you not think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 03:12 PM

And....4300!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:48 PM

I simply pointed out the article is not wholly good news, for anyone who stops reading after the headline.