BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:43 AM

Yes, Nigel, we all understand that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:07 AM

A review

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00344890600583792

My view is that a referendum is the best way of resolving contentious issues. But there is no point in having a referendum if it's supremacy is undermined by parliament. It make the entire exercise pointless.
Additionally if Parliament destroys the referendum result is it not deliberately in defiance of the electorate?
Where does that leave democracy?

There is no point in having referendums if the existing legislation is so weak that the outcome cannot be enforced. This is a glaring omission Parliament has made no attempt to rectify. It will make any future referendum a meaningless farce.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:03 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:16 PM
. . .
At the time of posting that weed smoking bunch of hippies the House of Lords has defeated the Governemt three times and extracted at least one and arguably two concessions. Such revisions of proposed law is their role in our Parliamentary system, as we all know.

Revision of proposed laws is not the role of the House of Lords. Suggesting revisions is.
It may be known as a 'revising chamber' but the revisions are only recommendations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:54 AM

What is again being conveniently forgotten in the claims that we should have left this to parliament is the reason we had the referendum. In our (effectively) two-party state, both parties were in favour of remaining in the EU, meaning that the many people who disagreed with our membership had no opportunity to be represented.
Along came UKIP, and they started getting sufficient votes that the only way they could be stopped was by the promise of a referendum.
The result of the referendum showed just how large a proportion of the voting electorate had previously been disenfranchised by the two-party system.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:16 AM

I agree entirely about the last couple of comments on referendums. Since it was first mooted and ever since I have said that a referendum is a way for the government to cop out of the decision taking process that we elect and pay them to make. Ludicrous state of affairs when we pay our MPs thousand of pounds to do a job and then have to do it ourselves, without the tools needed to make those decisions.

I have been told, by the remainders on here, that I am only against referendums because it went the wrong way. That merely highlights the point that these people have no idea what they are talking about. Or voting for!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:36 PM

I actually cross-posted with you there despite the time discrepancy - unbeknownst to me my post hadn't taken; fortunately I'd copied it before my failed submit...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:32 PM

But there is a big difference between voting for a government that can be ousted after four or five years and voting for what is in effect, in your or my lifetime anyway, an irrevocable decision to leave the EU, with all the complex implications that go with it. Parenthetically, note that a decision to remain would NOT have been irrevocable - we just have another vote, innit, an internal UK matter. In fact, that's what we've done - it's just that the next vote was 41 years after the last one, that's all. What I'd do about it is keep the current electoral system in place (tweaked? Discuss...) but NEVER have referendums. I thought remain was a shoo-in but I still vehemently argued against having the referendum, using the same argument as here. I'm sure my posts in that regard are checkable, though I'm not bothering.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:10 PM

I'd say you go for a system very like the one we have now, where people elect politicians, who take the decisions and after four or five years they can throw them out.

What you don't do is confuse that by having referendums where MPs are unable to do what some believe to be sensible in order to satisfy people with "zero of little knowledge of the issues".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:50 PM

Giving the average voter an opportunity to vote is stupid. Most have zero to little knowledge of the issues, or short and long term implications of each particular outcome. Arguing about who knew what prior to a vote is futile because of what I stated above.
   The real problem is:It is a deeply flawed system but, in order to preserve democracy, what could you replace it with?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:52 PM

"A vote to leave the EU meant precisely that and included all the garbage that sails with her."

If you're including the customs union and single market in that "garbage," Iains, then that's incorrect, as is proven by the nations that subscribe to them yet are not members of the EU. We can leave the EU but stay in one or both of those. Before the vote a large percentage of prospective leave voters didn't exactly see it your way, according to that YouGov poll. I suppose they were just confused. Which could mean that the result was affected by a lot of confused voters. That's worrying, innit...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:18 PM

Thanks DMcG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:16 PM

here you are, Raggytash.


At the time of posting that weed smoking bunch of hippies the House of Lords has defeated the Governemt three times and extracted at least one and arguably two concessions. Such revisions of proposed law is their role in our Parliamentary system, as we all know.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:40 PM

The fishing industry has been commented on recently. An article in todays Guardian by Polly Toynbee helps to refute some of the claims that have been made by posters on here.

Could someone kindly do the honours and supply a link to it.

There article tag line is "Propaganda delivered the Brexit vote but it can't land more fish"

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:14 PM

You seem to have forgotten that the whole point of the Withdrawal Bill is to move certain EU laws and regulations into the domain of the U.K. Law. These laws are ones that could be moved, just like the rest. Or are you suggesting no laws at all should be moved under the Withdrawal Bill, in which case there would be no point in the government bringing the Bill in the first place.

I was never a hippy, by the way., as photos from my Univeristy days demonstrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:04 PM

A vote to leave the EU meant precisely that and included all the garbage that sails with her. Existing legislation may be retained, modified, or junked. Your continuing drivel about it meant this or it meant that is simply drivel. Leave means leave. This must be the only forum around where a simple word like leave finds dispute as to it's meaning. You all sound like a bunch of aged hippies that have been at the weed for too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 12:57 PM

BREAKING:Government defeated on EU Charter of Fundamental Rights

EU Withdrawal Bill

House of Lords

Parliament

Peers vote 316 to 245 for crossbencher Lord Pannick's amendment, which aims to ensure that the majority of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights is carried over to form part of domestic law

=========
No doubt we will be assured that in the referendum vote people were insisting they didn't want their rights protected.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 12:24 PM

Dave,
Apparently they(the opposition) are there to support the government.

No-one said any such thing Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:30 AM

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/tag/role-of-opposition-parties/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:13 AM

"The Race Relations Act of 1965 outlaws discrimination on 'the grounds of colour, race or ethnic or national origin."

Again, implicit in that is that discrimination can be on the grounds of race, or of national origin. The two are clearly different, so while it may be discrimination, it is not racism.

By that logic, it isn't racist to discriminate on grounds of colour then either! Colour and race as just as separated in that definition as are race and national origin. Tell us why you think it's called the RACE Relations Act, Nigel...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:10 AM

Ignorance? 25% of Americans do not know there are 3 branches of government or how many Supreme Court judges there are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:10 AM

The opposition are only there to oppose if they believe that what the government is doing requires opposition.
They were fairly strongly behind the government's decision to issue article 50. But maybe that was self-preservation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:50 AM

BTW - I am suitably gobsmacked by an earlier post. I always understood the purpose of HM opposition was to, well, oppose. Now I learn that that is not the case. Apparently they are there to support the government. Jeremy should be blowing kisses at Theresa rather than giving her a hard time. You learn something new every day on here...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:40 AM

If discrimination against those of a different national origin is not racist because it implicitly mentioned then antisemitism is not racist either.

Everyone understands that racism covers discrimination against anyone of a different origin, culture or religion and the fact that you performing linguistic handsprings on such a trivial point goes to show that you have nothing serious to add.

Following you line of reasoning there is no such thing as raciam at all because we all belong to the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:34 AM

The very concept of race is problematic. It's fine to use the term racism to describe discrimination against any national or ethnic grouping not the same as your own. You don't get to revise that usage here to suit your agenda, Nigel. Stick to the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:29 AM

If something is an offence under the Race Relations Act, calling it racist is close enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:10 AM

How then can you categorise this as 'racist'?

When you are an ideologue most of those who disagree with you blur, in your mind, into a single broad category like racist, right winger, Islamophobe etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:10 AM

The Race Relations Act of 1965 outlaws discrimination on 'the grounds of colour, race or ethnic or national origin."

Again, implicit in that is that discrimination can be on the grounds of race, or of national origin. The two are clearly different, so while it may be discrimination, it is not racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:59 AM

The Race Relations Act of 1965 outlaws discrimination on 'the grounds of colour, race or ethnic or national origin."

National origin is explicitly listed, note. It is not linked to a scientific definition of race.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:51 AM

Much was made in the campaign about "uncontrolled" immigration, including the use of the Farage racist poster, how foreigners drive down our wages and take our jobs and bung up the NHS, etc. These were all racist allusions and there's no doubt that they pandered to a lowest common denominator of racist sentiment that exists among many people in this country. It would be unrealistic to suggest that they didn't impact the result of the vote.

Implicit in that is that you believe the inhabitants of the rest of Europe are a different 'race' when compared with the inhabitants of UK. There may be a few different racial types, such as tall blond Nordic types, or the more sun-scorched peoples from the southern countries of Europe, but I don't see that there is a distinct EU race which has notable differences from the UK race. How then can you categorise this as 'racist'?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:35 AM

You would say that, wouldn't you, Nigel?

And I've been very consistent about opposing referendums in general. Had the remain side won, we'd be well into a campaign by the leave side for yet another vote by now. That's how it goes. And I certainly don't think that leavers are more ignorant than remainers. My (consistent) point is that the campaign left everyone far more ignorant than it should have. As for whether leavers are racist, well some definitely are. Much was made in the campaign about "uncontrolled" immigration, including the use of the Farage racist poster, how foreigners drive down our wages and take our jobs and bung up the NHS, etc. These were all racist allusions and there's no doubt that they pandered to a lowest common denominator of racist sentiment that exists among many people in this country. It would be unrealistic to suggest that they didn't impact the result of the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:07 AM

.. who post...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:05 AM

I, and Steve, and probably others if I could be bothered enough to check, have been clear the ignorance was on both sides because of a very dubious campaign on both sides.

As to whether 'the public'are ignorant: let's imagine we take 10 issues and ask 1000 members of the public whether they arise from the customs union, single market or social contract. How do you feel they would fare? I think it would be pretty bad, which would be fair enough - not everyone follows every twist and turn as intently those who lost here - were it not that the future of the country for good or ill depended on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:01 AM

Democracy may have a longer lifetime in England than in the US.
It already has had.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 07:35 AM

A half dozen of the most prolific posters contribute to this Britin political thread but America has no equivalence here even in the face of mass deportations and threats to arrest poitical figures.
hmm
Democracy may have a longer lifetime in England than in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:57 AM

I believe that we were less in ignorance for the latest referendum, which is why we (the majority of those who voted) voted against the urgings of the majority of politicians.
A case of 'Fool me once . . .'
Of course, you no doubt believe the voters were voting in ignorance because they disagreed with your stance. That seems to be a typical remain viewpoint. "We lost the vote so the majority of the electorate must be either stupid or racist."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:44 AM

That's the point. Neither referendum was justified. Nigel can hardly keep up his forty-year-old beef against the one whilst simultaneously lauding the other as revealing "the will of the people." Let's face it, Nigel. You can complain all you like about dirty dealings in the 1975 one, but things hadn't moved on much in that regard by 2016, had they? Anyone for the Boris bus? Farage's immigration poster? Project Fear?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:37 AM

How does being ignorant on one occasion justify being ignorant on another?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:36 AM

"It has taken us over 40 years to get a chance to revoke that decision."

Quite so, in a second referendum. :-)

In both cases, Nigel, the electorate were ignorant of the implications of the decisions we were asked to make, far more so than the politicians we elect to steer the country in the best direction. I'm so glad you agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:28 AM

In other words, the electorate was in no position to make such an irrevocable decision.
No more in ignorance than those who were misled into voting to remain in the 'common market' when a conspiracy of silence prevented anyone realising exactly what the eventual programme would be.
It has taken us over 40 years to get a chance to revoke that decision.
Perhaps we should agree that we will get another vote on whether to rejoin the EU (if it survives) in 40 years time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:25 AM

Incidentally, there is no mention of customs union or single market in Article 50, which is solely concerned with a decision to leave the EU. It's then up to the EU and the withdrawing state to negotiate their future trading relationship. There are countries who are in a customs union and single market with the EU who are not EU members, lest we forget.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:18 AM

He can do what he likes. I'm posting to Mudcat Bullshit, not drawing up a legal document. That little point is as nothing compared to his persistent "will of the people" nonsense, when nothing of the kind is even remotely clear to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:14 AM

You know Nigel is going to question that 'happy'again, don't you, Steve? To do would be to miss your argument, which would b3 just as valid if you had said "prepared" instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:59 AM

The opposition is there to hold the government to account. As for the "will of the people," all we know is that just over a third of over-18s voted to leave the EU after a campaign of lies and distortions on both sides of the argument. We don't know, as the question wasn't asked, what the "will of the people" is when it comes to staying in a customs union with the EU, though the YouGov poll I mentioned, taken just before the referendum, suggested that almost half of prospective leave voters would have been happy to be in one. Now that poll was taken towards the end of campaigning. The fact that almost half of leave voters were still failing by then to realise that what they said they would have been happy with would have been completely at odds with all the brave talk about free trade with the world, new golden global opportunities, etc., speaks volumes about the quality of the campaign and the continuing ignorance of large sections of the electorate. In other words, the electorate was in no position to make such an irrevocable decision. Those leavers who keep on churning out this Pontius Pilate-style "will of the people" guff could do with a hefty dose of honesty therapy. If you really insist on a safety net argument to bolster your case for this rotten situation, you need a better one than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:59 AM

it is the clear duty of the Opposition to ensure staying in the customs union is considered adequately.
Although, as 'the customs union' is part of the EU, they have effectively already voted to leave it by voting to issue article 50.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:43 AM

It was, I think, Randolph Churchill who said the duty of an opposition was to oppose. But im my opinion Keith is closer: the duty of an opposition is to challenge and thereby get the best outcome for the country.

Whichever you prefer, it is the clear duty of the Opposition to ensure staying in the customs union is considered adequately.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:59 AM

It is the oppositions job make life difficult for the government. Otherwise they are not an opposition.

Not true. The opposition can and does support the government on some issues, and always has.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:56 AM

The Guardian has just said, "Downing Street sources are now saying that, on the confidence issue point, the BBC bulletin was wrong."

The BBC bulletin was not 2 hours ago!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:55 AM

It is the oppositions job make life difficult for the government. Otherwise they are not an opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:51 AM

And it would be a stupid government which defied the expressed will of the people. (or of the majority of those who voted)

It would also be a stupid opposition who tried to put the government in such a position of having to choose between the will of parliament & the will of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:51 AM

It is reported they will make it a vote of confidence.