BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:44 AM

That's so, Keith and the vote on Thursday is non-binding. But there are votes in round about a month that are binding.

It would be a brave PM who insisted a government would defy Parliament's will should such a binding vote go against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:38 AM

BBC, 14 minutes ago,
"Brexit: Government insists UK will leave customs union."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43860453

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 05:18 PM

DO we really want the rest of the world dictating their terms for a trade deal. Australia have already said that if we reamin in a custom union with EU then forget it. It is none of the rest of thw worlds business, and if they try to impose their terms, then they can just whistle. If we are supposedly leaving EU to bring control back to the UK, themn any trade deal with the rest of the world must be on IUK's terms. Of course that wont happen, and the likelihood then is that working people in the UK will end up being 'sold-out' to globalism. So those winging that people from EU are driving down wages - ironically those who were against the minimum wage - will have something to wing about when even more compnaies follow the Dyson employment model and shaft UK workers. OF course then Tory voters will turn their venom on some other disadvantaged group - maybe it is single parents' turn again????? I am still waiting for the racists to hone in on their next target. Once they get their own way over EU, how will they address the fact that non-EU immigration alone is over their target? Will that mean more stringent conditionality - how will that bode with any future trade deal? And what happens about future EU citizens who also meet criteria - or will europeans be discriminated against? And how long will it be before UK, out of desperation slimes its way out of its responsibilities for refugee settlement? My answer to the racists wh may say so what is that it would be a lesson worth learning for their families to go through what refugees go through. On top of this, just for the satisfaction of being a pathetic little Englander stamping their feet, the rights of the population of the UK have been handed over to the whim of tory s***s who dont give a toss about anyone but themselves,

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:36 PM

Thanks for that, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:32 PM

DMcG, here is the whole piece,

Theresa May’s team has privately admitted she may have to accept permanent membership of a European customs union, after a secret wargaming exercise concluded that even Brexiteers such as Michael Gove and David Davis would not resign in protest.
The prime minister has insisted that the UK will leave the common tariff area so it can pursue free trade deals outside the EU. But one of May’s political team told a meeting on March 20 that she and senior aides “will not be crying into our beer” if parliament forces the government’s hand — a position that will enrage some Brexiteers.

The Lords voted last week to stay in a customs union and 10 Tory MPs are expected to do so in the Commons, overturning May’s majority.
In the crunch meeting — attended by Oliver Robbins, May’s chief Brexit negotiator — officials predicted Gove and Davis would accept that outcome while only Boris Johnson and Liam Fox would be likely to quit. The foreign secretary has publicly said staying in a customs union would be “worse” than remaining in the EU.
Gove’s stance was confirmed by four sources who have discussed the issue with the environment secretary. “Michael is not ready to roll over in cabinet,” one said, “but he recognises that the arithmetic is difficult.”

The revelations will be greeted with anger by hardline Brexiteers around Jacob Rees-Mogg, who have privately warned Tory whips that remaining in a customs union would prompt a leadership challenge.
A source familiar with the discussion said: “They sat in a room in 9 Downing Street when they were discussing Brexit and Olly Robbins came in. The discussion focused on what to do if parliament votes to stay in a customs union. Someone from the political unit at No 10 said: ‘We wouldn’t cry into our beer if we were forced to do this.’ The PM needs to go through the choreography of trying to leave but we might be forced to do it.”
Robbins has been pushing for customs union membership as a way of preventing a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The source added: “The civil service fast stream have a pool on who is going to resign first. All the money is on Liam Fox and then Boris.”
Members of May’s Brexit war cabinet will meet on Wednesday to discuss trade before finalising the UK’s stance ahead of a crunch EU summit on June 29.
In an effort to turn the screws, Labour is demanding the prime minister bring forward a binding Commons vote on whether Britain should remain in the union.
In a letter to May, Sir Keir Starmer, Labour’s Brexit spokesman, claims that delaying the vote has already led to “deep anxiety” for businesses and communities across the UK, particularly in Northern Ireland. He offered to surrender Wednesday’s opposition day debate so she can bring forward the vote.
“The government cannot indefinitely delay the passage of legislation through the Commons for fear of defeat on crucial votes,” Starmer writes. “If a decision is not made until June then that will leave just three months to negotiate the details of the final agreement.”
A Downing Street source said May would continue to argue for Britain to quit the union. “Government policy is to leave the customs union. That’s what we will continue to argue for. That’s where we want to end up.”

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:04 PM

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

It can even be applied to members of the cabinet!I

Mind you, that shouldn't really surprise me with this lot:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:44 PM

Sunday Times' hint of U-turn on customs union

(Yes, I know it is an unconfirmed story at the moment.)

Being "The Times", only the intro can be read due to the firewall, but it sets out the gist.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:06 PM

I said I wouldn't say anything further on that quote, but in view of that comment, nigel, I will point out that in my the very original post I made plain that is what I thought Boris meant and have done so in several posts since, so talk of not understanding is not justified. Now you and I and several other people and on this thread can easily modify what Boris said to make what he probably meant clearer. He could have made the change you did. But he didnt. He could have made plain, as Keith would like, that unless we got that from the EU we should l3ave with no deal. But he didn't. In fact there are many other phrasing that would make his probable intention clear. But he didn't use the. Instead he went for one of the few phrasing that is probably the opposite of what he meant. And I have repeatly said, my amusement came from the gap between what he said and what he meant.

Now, anyone want to talk about 'The Times saying that No 10 would 'would not be crying in their beer'if they U turn to accept a customs union?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 12:50 PM

It has come to something when the words that spew from our foreign Secretary need to be explained and justified by people on a folk music forum
They only needed to be explained because of the inability of some members of the forum to understand them as originally stated, even knowing the general viewpoint of the politician who was using them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 12:46 PM

It has come to something when the words that spew from our foreign Secretary need to be explained and justified by people on a folk music forum

Different language etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 12:29 PM

I think that the Boris quote needs to be enlarged so that it becomes clearer what he is saying:
“Without your ability to do things in a different way if you want, and your ability to do free trade deals, there is very little point in Brexit. ”
I read it as: If an agreed Brexit goes ahead, but leaves us unable to negotiate our own trade deals, then that Brexit would be pointless. In that case we would not wish to take the 'agreed' (offered) deal, but would be better just leaving the EU without an agreed deal.
Effectively he is just reiterating "No deal, is better than a bad (or poor) deal." And in this case "No deal" does not meaning remaining within the EU, but leaving with no advance agreement about how we would in future deal with the EU, in other words, on WTO terms.
"I think Theresa totally gets that.": Theresa May has already stated that "no deal is better than a bad deal".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 06:28 AM

Exactly. So if you don't get such a deal there is little point in Brexit. I.e. in leaving the EU.

No. There would be no point in such a Brexit so we should leave with no deal rather than accept that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:32 AM

To be clear: what we are talking about now with the Boris quote is simply another example of his speaking without actually thinking about what he is saying. He has a very long list of such mistakes, and this is fortunately an insignificant example. But it happened to amuse me. It is of no more import than that.

There are plenty of more substantial thing to discuss, so I will not comment further on this particular quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:18 AM

Exactly. So if you don't get such a deal there is little point in Brexit. I.e. in leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:10 AM

The Boris quote,
“Without your ability to do things in a different way if you want, and your ability to do free trade deals, there is very little point in Brexit. I think Theresa totally gets that.”

I agree with him. There would be no point in such a Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:01 AM

I meant 'leave with no deal'of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 04:47 AM

If the EU stands firm, no deal is better than a bad one

But that's not what it says. It is not saying leave with a bad deal, which would still be "Britain Exiting the EU", which is after all what "Brexit" means. It is saying there is little value in Brexiting i.e. leaving the EU at all. I am sure that is not what he meant, which is why I found it amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 04:36 AM

DMcG,
But do you (Boris) also realise that you are saying if the EU stands firm and the UK concedes, you think there is little point in Brexit?

Yes. If we are not able to strike trade deals of our own and are still ruled by EU nothing will have been gained.

If the EU stands firm, no deal is better than a bad one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 03:42 AM

I auggest you learn as many of these as you can, Steve. It will make you the life and soul of the party, I am sure....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 06:02 PM

Wot? and spoil the fun?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:51 PM

The Express article is based on work by  Günter Hannich as they make clear. You may want to read up on him before commenting on it too readily.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:40 PM

I gather all economic forecasts are equal, but some are more equal than others, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:32 PM

Merkel in a bit of a pickle. No brexit agreement will hurt Germany.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/949061/brexit-news-germany-angela-merkel-eu-uk
To further increase her popularity she has told her parishioners that if the euro needs a bailout then their bank accounts will provide it.
Swimmingly good news,
and Macron has some very unhappy Frenchmen to contend with. They take a dim view of his revised immigration laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:15 PM

Not only that, Dave, I apologised for following the headline instead of the graph BEFORE Nige waded in!! You can't win!

But round here, you CAN lose... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 03:12 PM

We must be on Monroe heights again. Number wise.

Nigel. When someone quotes a You Gov poll that is usually the source. When someone says 'around half' 40%-60% is quite acceptable. When someone has no better argument than linguistic gymnastics it generally means they have nothing useful to say. Don't tell me that the 'different language' syndrome has rubbed off on you. Maybe it is the company you keep.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 01:00 PM

When I said it was just whimsy, I didn't really mean it. It was just a linguistic peccadillo.

Wow, I'm so glad you were here to tell me that, DMcG. I can't wait to wow all my mates with it...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 11:40 AM

Somewhere in between, I'd say, Nigel. Now why don't we just agree to ignore each other's linguistic peccadillos,

It's not 'linguistic pecadillos'. It's changing the meaning of something that you're reporting as having been stated elsewhere, and giving it as if it was a fact.
When this is pointed out you hide under "It's a linguistic peccadillo", or "I didn't really mean it" or "it was just whimsy".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 11:37 AM

As a change from people claiming the '4000'post etc, which is fairly arbitrary number, I thought I would claim '4521'and give some interesting fact about it. But while 4520 is the number of regions of the complex plane is cut into by drawing lines between all pairs of the 20th root of unity, and 4522 is the number of non-interaecting room paths joining opposite corners of an 8x3 chessboard, there seems to be nothing interesting about 4521.

That's interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 11:29 AM

Somewhere in between, I'd say, Nigel. Now why don't we just agree to ignore each other's linguistic peccadillos, Nigel? Pursuing such things can be tedious but there's nothing I like better than picking holes in a pedant once I'm confronted. Don't say I didn't tell you. I'm typing messages in a rush here, not composing the laws of the land.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 10:56 AM

I found this Borisism amusing:

-----------

The foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, told the Daily Telegraph on Wednesday: “Without your ability to do things in a different way if you want, and your ability to do free trade deals, there is very little point in Brexit. I think Theresa totally gets that.”

-----------

I understand you mean Teresa must stick to the UK position. But do you also realise that you are saying if the EU stands firm and the UK concedes, you think there is little point in Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 10:03 AM

No, I meant what I said:
. . . just before the referendum a YouGov poll showed that around half of intending leave voters would be happy to remain in the EEA.

Any source for that wild assertion?

The link I created from your rough description of the page seemed to match what you wanted, but the closest to your words (quoted above) that I could find was:
UPDATE, 13th June 2016: A Yougov poll in the Sunday Telegraph, sponsored by the Adam Smith Institute reveals almost half of Leave voters would consider the EEA Option after a Leave vote

Percentages aside, I see a big difference between "Being willing to consider the EEA option", and "being happy to remain in the EEA".

Your use of English may see them as identical.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 09:13 AM

"Poll reveals EEA Option has big support (including half of Leave voters)" ("Medium" again)

In fact, the graph in the article shows 42% of leavers supporting EEA membership and 45% opposed. I admit to relying on the headline too much when I said "around half," but I don't think the point falls on that. Wild is only wild when it's wild, Nigel. You meant "Steve, can you back that up?"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM

I'll try again:

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 07:10 AM
. . . just before the referendum a YouGov poll showed that around half of intending leave voters would be happy to remain in the EEA.

Any source for that wild assertion?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 08:15 AM

Your hopefulness will surely evaporate, Iains. I hope I'm wrong...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 08:11 AM

No gain without pain, as the saying goes!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 07:35 AM

Cheers, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 07:35 AM

Absolutely it didn't, and what's more, just before the referendum a YouGov poll showed that around half of intending leave voters would be happy to remain in the EEA.
Any source for that wild assertion?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 07:29 AM

Medium- read the question
As it's difficult to find from the suggested search text.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 07:10 AM

"The ballot paper did not provide consent to leave the EEA."

Absolutely it didn't, and what's more, just before the referendum a YouGov poll showed that around half of intending leave voters would be happy to remain in the EEA. So much for the claimed clarity of the campaign.

Apropos of what was on the ballot paper, if you want an entertaining and meaningful little read google "Medium Read the question." Sorry about my chronic linklessnessitudinous condition.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 06:48 AM

if the leave campaign had not been saying the whole time it was all lies.

I do not accept that. Exaggerated but not lies.
The predictions for instance of a large rise in unemployment following a Leave vote did prove false and other claims exaggerated.

Re the border, I suspect it is a tactic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:57 AM

I would agree with that Keith, if the leave campaign had not been saying the whole time it was all lies. So the leave campaign does not seem to have made clear to people there was a possible cost to them personally in voting leave.

Anyway. The past is the past and this thread is supposed to be about life after Brexit. And the latest is that the EU is reported to have rejected the UK's Irish border solutions, according to the Telegraph and the BBC today.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:35 AM

Can you remind me of Leave campaigners who said there was a cost to leaving which might hit you personally, voter?

No. That point was being well made by the other side as you say.
Everyone was aware that there might be a cost, certainly in the short term, but a clear majority thought it worth paying.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:31 AM

That's quite an autocorrect. 'Tarred'not 'tarts'. I cast no such aspersions!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:30 AM

I agree there were many authorative people saying that Keith. But all of the on3s I can think of were on the Remain side and were tarts with the Project Fear/Who wants experts brushes.

Can you remind me of Leave campaigners who said there was a cost to leaving which might hit you personally, voter?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:19 AM

The question posed in the referendum did not explicitly seek consent to leave the customs union.
The question set was whether we should leave the European Union.
The EU Customs Union is made up of the member states of the EU.
Leaving the EU clearly also means leaving the EU Customs Union.
There would then be the possibility of setting up some form of customs union with the EU Customs Union. But, as part of the reason for leaving the EU was to allow us to trade more freely with the rest of the world, remaining part of the currently restrictive EU Customs Union would not have been expected.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:09 AM

DMcG, there were plenty of very authoritative warnings that Leaving would bring a cost, and it must have deterred many people from voting Leave. I certainly had second thoughts.

Despite that there was still a clear majority who thought the price worth paying. People made that same decision in 1939.

Dave,
More and more people are realising that making your point is what matters and not getting involved

If your point is worth making it is worth defending.
What are you afraid of?
Not being able to defend it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:54 AM

So the question is whether the consumers who voted for it did so in the clear understanding that because of the things SB raised they may well be personally worse off.
The hope of Leave campaigners is that they won't be, but the risk was there.

I have a certain admiration for those who say "this is right for the country so I will do it even if I am personally worse off both short and long term" but I hazard that there were not very many such people. Note that this is entirely different to 'Project Fear', since the leave campaign was that it was all untrue. What I am talking about is those who said even if it is true and I am worse off, it is the right thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:24 AM

So you think the consumers, and businesses that depend upon the EU for their supply chains should pay the price of gratifying a handful of rabid tories

Everyone who voted for it was a consumer.

rabid tories

There are plenty of Labour supporters who support Leave and plenty of Tories who support Remain.

The ballot paper did not provide consent to leave the EEA.

Of course you could not put everything on a ballot paper, but the campaign on both sides was clear that Leave meant leaving the Customs Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:04 AM

Oh, and 4500!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:03 AM

It's no good arguing with them, SPB. Your words will be manipulated, distorted and used against you. You have made your point. Many on here agree and you really don't want to get involved with those that dont. More and more people are realising that making your point is what matters and not getting involved with these people makes Mudcat a sweeter place:-)

Entirely up to you or course.