BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 02:56 PM

Your last link gave mean application form and nothing else
Don'r bother to try again - I'll rely on my own experiance if it's ok with you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:01 AM

Jim, here is a survey that challenges your view of Brexit supporters.

"There is little connection between racism and calls for greater immigration control, according to a think tank. Despite claims that last year’s EU referendum was driven by xenophobic attitudes towards immigration, British people are actually ‘nuanced and sophisticated’ on the subject, Open Europe’s study found.
Aarti Shankar, a policy analyst for Open Europe, said: ‘We found that Brexit is too often wrongly seen as a mandate to pull up the drawbridge. ‘In fact most people have a relatively nuanced view and can articulate both the advantages and disadvantages immigration brings. ‘We found little evidence that the desire to control migration was driven by racism or xenophobia.’ "
http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/21/people-didnt-vote-brexit-racist-study-finds-7176198/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:13 AM

Sorry Keith
You feature prominently in my New Years Rsolution list and I hope those of others
We've closed fucked up too many threads
Go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:19 AM

For balance.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:22 AM

I'll try that again

For balance.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:06 AM

Maybe it is a matter of timing but the metro article (21/12) appears to reference an report that is not on the Open Britain list of reports and publications at the time of this post (list here)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:09 AM

Sorry, my mistake. Open Britain/Open Europe confusion!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 08:19 AM

From the Open Europe "survey":

Ms Shankar added: ‘There is overwhelming support for migrants coming to the UK in areas where we have skills shortages and to do socially-useful roles, for example as doctors, nurses or teachers.'

At the same time, the public believe that migrants’ access to welfare and public services should be restricted.

Ah, the good old class divide feeds into to racism, as ever. To reinterpret the rather benign-sounding take quoted above:

"Skilled workers (of the kind we fail to train ourselves) can come here because they are useful for filling our gaps (and, by the way, to hell with their native countries who will just have to do without them). At the same time, though, they mustn't expect to be able to have the same access to our schools, doctors and hospitals that we native Brits get, however useful these people are, and we definitely don't want these foreigners to have access to welfare."

This is the aspiration towards exploiting foreigners, especially the "useful" ones, which has tainted the history of this country for hundreds of years. We will have them under sufferance but they mustn't expect equality while they're here. And the referendum leave campaign relentlessly emphasised the "lack of control of our borders" and the need for some kind of points system (a nice way of saying that we won't take foreign riffraff). It's completely disingenuous to suggest that that didn't exploit the most base racist instincts of many people. In fact, given the closeness of the vote, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that it might just have swung the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:24 PM

Amazingly I have some good news with regard to Brexit.

Irish Ferries have commissioned a new ship on the Holyhead to Dublin route. They would not have done so if they lacked confidence in future trade between Ireland and the UK.

New ships

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 08:06 PM

There's so much anti-brexit murmuring at the moment that I reckon it wouldn't take much adverse news to trigger a real groundswell against it. All sane people now realise that brexit is thoroughly against the interests of this country. We have to make sure that we force our politicians to act in a way that reflects that and not in a short-termist way that reflects the interests of their party. As a Labour Party member who joined when Corbyn was elected leader, I'm very disturbed by the continuing pro-brexit stance of the party. It had better be a political tactic. If not, I'll leave, as will tens of thousands of others. I'm doing me damnedest to make Jezza listen. We desperately need an opposition to brexit in this country, and, much as I love Vince Cable, it can only come from Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:13 AM

For jimmie from the Irish Government website.
"Rules

The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. You do not need to have a passport in order to enter the other country. However, all air and sea carriers require some form of identification and some regard a passport as the only valid identification. Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid official photo-identification which shows your nationality.

As you are being asked to prove that you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your passport.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:48 AM

So it's sensible to carry your passport. Doing so may help you to avoid difficulties and get past bureaucracy. When I'm overseas I carry my passport, or a photocopy of the crucial page from it at least, everywhere I go, though technically I don't have to. The only other photo ID in the whole world that I possess is my bus pass, which no-one recognises as valid ID. I still have my tatty old paper driving licence, sans photo, issued to me last in 1976 if I remember correctly (I really must look for it some time). It bears a huge tea stain and a handwritten record of my 1990 speeding rap (bastard Wiltshire cops). But passports for UK and Irish citizens travelling between the two countries are never a legal requirement. If you don't want a fight at the Ryanair departure gate it makes a lot of sense to have it handy. I prefer to sail through such obstacles rather than make principled stands. There you are, the alpha and omega of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:06 AM

Two things Steve, firstly I suspect you may be driving illegally if you haven't obtained a photo ID Drivers Licence, I'd check that up if I were you.

Secondly Ryanair will not book you a flight unless you have a valid passport. Other operators will accept other photo ID but not Ryanair.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:13 AM

Just had a quick look Steve and it seems the old paper licences are still valid. I had to apply for a new photo ID licence just yesterday as apparently the photo I had taken years ago does not reflect the person I am today ............ cost me £21 for the bloody privilege!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:17 AM

My licence is still valid, expiring in 2021. I've checked. As for passports, I'd suggest just having the bloody thing with you when crossing borders. The last thing I want when I'm lugging my stuff through interminable airport queues is extra bureaucratic hassle. I'll gladly give up most of my human rights for half an hour just to get my arse on that plane seat.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:22 AM

I just took the plunge and asked about getting a Polish passport. If the cost is not prohibitive I may well go for it!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:22 AM

...If I did I wonder if I could use my original name, Polakow?

D,

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:23 AM

"advisable" being the operative word, which is what I said in the first place
I have a driving licence with my photograph on which serves just as well
These are security measures - nothing to do with Brexit
Things are quite likely to change regarding travel to Europe when Britian leaves - a loss that will effect British Trade - as pointed oout by the economic section
"For jimmie"
Mental midgets attempting to talk down to people from the hole they have dug for themselves are a constant source of entertainment - your only positive contribution to this forum
Jim Caaarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 09:02 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 08:06 PM
. . . All sane people now realise that brexit is thoroughly against the interests of this country.

Well, it's movement anyway, whether or not in the right direction.

Steve has gone from classifying the majority of those who took part in the referendum as either misguided or racist, to classifying them/us as 'insane'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 09:06 AM

No, I'm calling you sane, Nigel. It's just that you know that brexit is not in the interests of this country but you have yet to shed the hubris and admit it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 01:24 PM

"At present, there is no legal requirement to produce a passport when travelling between the two - or into the Republic, contrary to Iain's claim"

Hey jimmie. did they ever teach you to read at school? Valid ID is required, as I stated.
If you took your head out of your arse you would not have shit for brains!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 01:34 PM

Iains I have NEVER been asked for ID either outbound or inbound. This is despite taking hundreds of journeys in either direction.

It may be if I was asked I may have a problem but I think it would be a minor one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 01:44 PM

"Hey jimmie. did they ever teach you to read at school?"
Obviously more so than they they taught youu good manners you loutish thug
Wouldn'tt you be more at home on the terraces or out 'Paki-bashing' or givven your choice of chosen sources, maybe synagogue burning
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 02:47 PM

HI

My wife has just this week had to renew her Driving Licence.........Guess what?? She had to quote her Current Passport number before they will authorise the Driving Licence. !!!

The say it is for security reasons.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 03:03 PM

"This is despite taking hundreds of journeys in either direction."
I assume poetic license!
Assume 200 minimum and the 20 years you have stated. A round trip every 6 weeks for 20 years? You been retired all your life?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:22 PM

Ignore Iains, chaps. Let him self-immolate. His days may well be numbered so leave him alone. Make it easy for the mods.

Maybe your missus is up to no good, Mike. I've heard that the powers-wot-be are tekkin' agin spouses of Man U supporters, and quite right too!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:12 PM

Hmm I thought 200 was hundreds .......... could be wrong though.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 08:57 AM

hi Steve

"< Maybe your missus is up to no good, Mike. I've heard that the powers-wot-be are tekkin' agin spouses of Man U supporters, and quite right too! >"

Not totally sure what you mean. Then you're more educedificated than wot I am.

There have been some great matches over the holiday. Liverpool are beginning to worry me !!!

Have a great New Year.

Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 06:13 PM

"Hmm I thought 200 was hundreds .......... could be wrong though."
A blond moment perhaps?

The minimum value of hundreds would be 2 in order to give a plurality.

For those not thoroughly bored by the recent discussion, to have a requirement to carry ID does not automatically mean it will be asked for. The vetting is far more stringent for travelling by air than by ferry. Also car drivers can be identified by their registration.
If I can google any UK car registration and determine if it is taxed tested and insured, I am sure security forces can go much much further in among all those computerised data banks where our electronic alter ego/doppleganger exists, and the average person would be astonished to find out just how comprehensive these records are. Linking NI number to passport, to driving license, to bank details, to vehicle details, enables electronic tracking on a scale never dreamed of. Couple this with phone and internet surveillance, vehicle tracking, even to monitoring oyster card individual movements in London. Additionally, DNA and fingerprints are routinely hoovered up, despite breaching article 8 of the right to respect for private and family life.
Big Brother has arrived with a vengeance and is being kitted out with all the latest bells and whistles. With a few keystrokes, those that wish to, could generate a more accurate profile of you than you could generate yourself.
Perhaps the argument should move on to how we allowed the state to be privy to all our secrets, and what dangers it presents to a democracy? Cant vouch for the accuracy of the links but they give an idea of the road we are on.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/03/home_office_mega_database/


http://mashable.com/2017/02/19/snoopers-charter/#fY.3THEqomqM
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150312/09283830302/report-says-uk-citizens-ens-must-give-up-right-to-privacy-because-terrorism-reveals-huge-secret-government-databases.shtml
http://www.genewatch.org/sub-569340

https://news.vice.com/article/exclusive-uk-government-and-police-are-getting-information-from-shadowy-terrorism-database

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 06:34 PM

Liverpool worry me every time I watch 'em, Mike, but, in terms of edge-of-seat excitement and brilliantly-fast footie, what's not to like! Felt a bit sorry for Burnley as they were my boyhood club, in their golden days of Jimmy Mac, the greatest inside forward of all time (ish!), and it's great to see a club who haven't got multibillions at their disposal doing so well.

You see, chaps, as a rampant leftie I can argue footie in benificent mode even with a crusty old Tory such as Mike! That's the way to do it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 05:30 AM

UK car sales slump

Just one of the consequences. Many factors, all pointing to the uncertainty of the Brexit negotiations.

Unintended? Nah, unconsidered. Who cares? I will buy a s/h car this year and it may hap that prices are in my favour. Ya gotta take the positives, even in adversity.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 06:15 AM

Mr Red.
You need to look at more than just the headlines. The 'slump' in sales is only by comparison with the two previous years 2015 & 2016, which were record years for new car sales in this century.
Sales in 2017 were lower than in 2015 & 2016, but on a par with 2002, 2003 & 2004. They were higher than any other year this century.
Hardly a slump, just 2015 & 2016 were 'bucking the trend'.

Radio 2 news this morning (not usually a supporter of Brexit) made it clear that the 'fall' in sales was noticeably greater for Diesel cars, thus suggesting that uncertainty over these may be an important factor in the reduction.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 06:30 AM

the 'fall' in sales was noticeably greater for Diesel cars, thus suggesting that uncertainty over these may be an important factor in the reduction.

That would only be true if the fall in diesel sales was offset by an equal or greater rise in other types. The fall in sales is in total indicating that people are just not spending on new cars in general. The timing you mention fits in to the timing of the referendum and it's result giving further indication, if any was required, that people are uncertain of the future.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 06:43 AM

The timing you mention fits in to the timing of the referendum and it's result giving further indication, if any was required, that people are uncertain of the future.
So why were sales so low from 2005 to 2014? maybe that was because we were inextricably linked to the EU, and sales shot up for a while when people saw the possibility of an escape?
I'm not claiming that as a link, just showing that extreme generalisations can be made, on very little evidence, by either side in the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 06:45 AM

"Liverpool worry me every time I watch 'em, "
Me too
Have you ever seen that crappy and grubby plastic Yellow Submarine on the forecourt of John Lennon Airport (John Lennon Airport - for crying out loud!!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM

Well let me make a generalisation that the pound has plunged, making those desirable EU-made cars more expensive, giving people a harder choice between more expensive cars versus more expensive foreign holidays, causing inflation that pay isn't keeping up with putting pressure on domestic finances, increasing uncertainty over the country's future in the teeth of the shenanigans of a ramshackle and incompetent government, a massive and increasingly unsustainable increase in personal debt levels...

Tell me which of those factors are going to encourage people to buy new cars. Or just keep putting a brave face on things. Your choice, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:38 AM

"Also car drivers can be identified by their registration"

No they cannot.

I drive a car but I do not own a car. In fact I drive three vehicles none of which is registered in my name.

Add to this a car could have false plates, could be stolen ........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:39 AM

So why were sales so low from 2005 to 2014? maybe that was because we were inextricably linked to the EU, and sales shot up for a while when people saw the possibility of an escape?

1. No idea but when people are unsure about their finances, car sales slump.

2. Maybe sales shot up when people saw that confirmation of our membership was possible and slumped when they saw the actual results.

Playing with these figures is of no benefit as they can be shown to support different theories. What we do know is that people are now unsure of their futures and not spending as much as a result.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:42 AM

There is also a chart in Mr Red's link (at 11:32) showing that a 5.7% decline in 2017 was due to diesel vehicles.
Diesel car sales declined by 17.1%
Petrol car sales increased by 2.7%
Alternate fuel (& hybrid) car sales increased by 34.8%

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:47 AM

You can (mis)use the statistics as much as you like. Overall, car sales were down by 5.7%. A significant portion of that will be because people are unsure of their future due to brexit.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:53 AM

Listen to the first bit of today's You And Yours on Radio 4, Nigel, and see if you're still wearing that brave face of yours afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:59 AM

And as you like to (nit)pick me up on my English, Nigel, perhaps you'd care to review your use of "alternate." Tsk. And let's bear in mind that a 34.8% increase in sales of hybrids, etc., is 34.8% of a very small number when set beside the numbers of petrol and diesel cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 08:01 AM

What we do know is that people are now unsure of their futures and not spending as much as a result.
That is just your inference from the figures, and deals with comparing just three years.
Even when there were unexpected increased sales in 2016 & 2017, no one would possibly have been justified in expecting the increase to continue indefinitely. Sales have fallen back to (above)their 2015 level. So what?
Without those two years we would be looking at the highest car sales figures for over a decade.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 08:16 AM

You And Yours. iPlayer, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 08:44 AM

And let's bear in mind that a 34.8% increase in sales of hybrids, etc., is 34.8% of a very small number when set beside the numbers of petrol and diesel cars.
Yes, but sales of petrol vehicles also went up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:06 AM

That is just your inference from the figures

No it isn't. I have said specifically that the figures are meaningless in themselves as they can be interpreted in any number of ways. I said "What we do know is that people are now unsure of their futures and not spending as much as a result" based on countless studies which all confirm that people are unsure of their futures because they have no idea what will happen after brexit.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 10:22 AM

An interesting perspective on Brexit on todays BBC.

The Brexit Generation

Perhaps younger voters will get another chance somewhere down the line.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 11:59 AM

"Also car drivers can be identified by their registration"

No they cannot." I would not wish to be too categorical on that point.

I refer you to my earlier post:
From: Iains - PM
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 06:13 PM

Perhaps you think the security services as as daft as you are? Should you be a person of interest rest assured you will not proceed unless they are satisfied that they know who you are. Being complacent on account of not having been stopped before does not change the requirement to have adequate ID
If you take a car not belonging to you on a ferry a sensible precaution would be to have a letter of authorization, should you be stopped. This could also extend to company cars. It would rather depend upon what reasons triggered your being of interest. For certain european countries the registration document is required to be in the vehicle at all times, as is the requirement to carry your driving license in Ireland.(road traffic act 1994 section 40.1 a)

You can be as cute as you like with me. I do not recommend the same line of backchat with the authorities on the day you become one of those "selected" for a little chat. Uniforms do not warm to "clever" people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Jan 18 - 12:04 PM

I heard on a satirical radio prog today that there was a proposal of using volunteer customs officers. Maybe it was some ministerial MP thinking aloud. And these volunteers would be sort of spies rather than vigilantes.

But ya gotta larf ain't ya?

Diesel cars, thus suggesting that uncertainty over these

H'mm. If you are going to buy a car and not a diesel - then ............ you work it out. Red Herring see "many factors"

This issue won't be the last. Change costs money. This is just an example that wasn't discussed or foreseen. House prices are always up and down (and there is talk of notso up) but food prices will be (are) on the rise. Ya can't rent food! It would serve us better to discuss "how many hours of hard work" an item costs. But that would involve mental thought. Reactionaries of this parish don't spend on that luxury.

I often refer to the cost of this or that (in this parish) as X number of cups of coffee. Because prices/taxes vary UK/US (etc) and while coffee is somewhat variable, it is universal.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 02:37 AM

Another ill-considered trifle