BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 05:43 AM

How do you feel about your boy crush, Rees-Mogg, now Iains?

Jacob Rees-Mogg just brazenly LIED about Jeremy Corbyn’s voting record live on Channel 4

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 06:03 AM

!"Two centimetres of snow in Westminster provided excuse enough for Jeremy Corbyn,"
Got snow on his boots - must be a Red spy!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 06:04 AM

Getting a bit tetchy are we???
Are you more comfortable babbling about weeds?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 06:20 AM

Looks like my last post hit a nerve. I'm not tetchy at all. Just wondering why you seem to consider it worse to wear hiking boots or a warm coat during bad weather than it is to lie in public about other politicians.

Still now good news about brexit then?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 07:00 AM

Steve,
The spy nonsense is dead in the water.

The story was true. The apology was for claims about secrets and payments which were never part of the story.

There were at least 3 meetings with a real spy who considered him to be a potential future source of information.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 07:28 AM

Over the past day or two we have had Tusk and Barnier and John Major and Bill Cash and Rees-Mogg and who knows who else all putting pressure on May before a key speech tomorrow to find a way out of the hole she dug for herself in December and what she says or doesnt say could have implications for years.

And there are those who think Michael Foot's coat or a "potential future source" is more significant.   (I am potential future PM myself - just have to stand for election and take it from there, you know)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 07:32 AM

he he, even the poster himself is a POTENTIAL future source !!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 07:53 AM

As I eloquently (IMHO) put it before, DMcG, they are fiddling with semantics while the treaty of Rome burns. Try to distract us from the looming disaster.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:17 AM

There were at least 3 meetings with a real spy who considered him to be a potential future source of information.

They're trained to recognize dupes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:22 AM

Yeah, and they compasses and flexible hacksaws in the heels of their shoes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:24 AM

Meanwhile in the real world where people's lives are affected, May has u-turned on her insistance on changes to rules for newly arriving EU citizens after May 2019 and the EU have rejected because it does not go far enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:31 AM


Yeah, and they compasses and flexible hacksaws in the heels of their shoes

Wow, that's a blast from the past! Clark's Wayfinders! I had some of those complete with compass in the heel. No hacksaw, though, as far as I remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:45 AM

"There were at least 3 meetings with a real spy"
A real spy - can't have been much of a spy if everybody knew he was one!"
Your party has been selling Corbyn as a bumbling inconsequential idiot since his appearance on the scene - now he seems to have been a desirable catch for foreign powers
What kind of a security service has Britain we got if they have allowed a spy to get as far as Westminster without one single comment - until it looks like he might be a contender for next Prime Minister, that is?
You are a moronic idiot Keith
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 08:49 AM

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5464119/remainers-should-get-a-grip-and-realise-brexit-impact-papers-are-meaningless/



********************** 3 or 4?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:17 AM

Interesting, Iains. Apart from the arse wipe that the report is published in it could almost be true. But, and here is the crunch, if indeed one cannot accurately give an economic forecast for 15 years in the future then that applies equally to both the leave and remain economic arguments. If we can therefore discount the projected economic benefits of either leave or remain then what have people based their decision to leave or remain on?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:25 AM

"There were at least 3 meetings with a real spy who considered him to be a potential future source of information."

"They're trained to recognize dupes."

Two classic bits of fake news, totalky unsupportable, to go alongside the donkey jacket
yarn. Keep it up, lads!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:30 AM

Another thing, apart from the fact it comes from the Sun, the article is a month old and is factually incorrect. The pound, which they maintain was perking up, has fallen since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:38 AM

And we Liverpool supporters don't appreciate being directed towards that lying shitbag rag the S*n, thank you very much. I note that the said bumwipe describes Momentum as a "cult." Is there still a Monday Club? A Cambridge Mafia bratpack? A Notting Hill Set? A Bullingdon Club? Do give it a rest, Rupert!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:39 AM

The article also completely misunderstands what forecasting is. Of course you cannot give precise figures for such things, but you are not attempting to. I happened to have had a little involvement in the decision whether to build Terminal 5 at Heathrow. Does anyone imagine such a decision was taken without forecasts of the number of passengers, goods, etc? Does anyone imagine a power station is built without forecasting the demand? Any of those forecasts could be out in detail, or quite substantially - what Brexit will or will not do to passenger traffic was not modelled for instance - but you take the decision using the best information you can, while simultaneously recognising its limitations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:40 AM

"If we can therefore discount the projected economic benefits of either leave or remain then what have people based their decision to leave or remain on?"
The major issue was not wanting to be part of the EU. The vote was for in or out, nuffin about consequences.
Obviously the details are crucial, but as yet each side is not for talking and the clock is running. With or without agreement the clock is running down. The implications have been thrashed out theoretically on here ad nauseam, but it is only opinion.
The vote was not based on economics, it was about regaining control, in or out - yes or no.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:44 AM

"And we Liverpool supporters don't appreciate being directed towards that lying shitbag rag the S*n, thank you very much. I note that the said bumwipe describes Momentum as a "cult." Is there still a Monday Club? A Cambridge Mafia bratpack?"

WHAT A WELL BROUGHT UP LITTLE LAD. Nice to see your true colour on public display. Shall I mail you some soap and water for your gutter mouth?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:51 AM

The major issue was not wanting to be part of the EU

But wanting or not wanting to be part of something must be based on logic. What are the advantages and disadvantages of belonging to a club? What are the benefits and costs? These must also be projected to allow for future consequences. We need this information to make a reasoned decision and, from what you are saying, this decision was made on purely irrational grounds. If that is the case we need to go through the same process but this time with all the facts known and all of the lies removed.

it was about regaining control

Regaining control is a red herring as we never lost control of our own administration anyway and leaving the EU removes our control over their decisions.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 09:56 AM

The vote was indeed simple in or out. What is wasn't was about whether we should be in or out of the single market and customs union. That decision was made by Theresa May alone, not by parliament, not even by the cabinet. She's taken control all right. Though her control won't last long.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 10:03 AM

What is wasn't was about whether we should be in or out of the single market and customs union.

Yes it was. It was stated to be about that by both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 10:10 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn2hSVfqtYc

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 10:13 AM

There was only one question asked on the referendum ballot paper. It read

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

It then gave just 2 options woth a box to put your 'x' against one of them

Remain a member of the European Union

Leave the European Union

There was no mention of the single market of the customs union.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 10:54 AM

Dave, your comment is only relevant to people who voted without listening to a single argument.

Both sides were adamant that voting Leave meant leaving the single market and the customs union.
Only empty headed voters could be unaware of that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 11:02 AM

Is that not what the ballot paper said then?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 11:17 AM


Both sides were adamant that voting Leave meant leaving the single market and the customs union

Perhaps, but very few - campaigners or voters - understood what it meant, I suggest. I offer in evidence three things

Firstly, the contents of the BBC "Have Your Say" messages around Brexit. You should form your own opinion, but it is clear to me many posters still do not know what is 'customs union' and what is 'single market'. And they are the ones involved enough to bother to post.

Secondly, much of what both the Leave and Remain camp said was ignored. Why should anyone give more credence to Osborne's view about leaving the CU/SM than his emergency budget? Discount the latter and you may well discount the former. Similarly, Farage and co made great play of having a bespoke UK-EU agreement. No one, I would suggest, had any idea how that would 'compare and contrast' with the CU/SM.

Thirdly, it may have slowed a bit, but the first few months revealed unintended consequence after unintended consequence. Did most people - campaigners or voters - realise the Irish border question was linked into the CU/SM question? Even now there is much denial of that. So if the campaigners didn't fully understand the consequences it is a bit harsh to expect all the voters to.

I am with Dave: we know how people voted on the given question. Using Iains' current favourite term, claiming you know what they felt about anything beyond that question is opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:01 PM

The facts were put before the people.
You can argue that they were not understood, but the Remain side made every effort to explain the implications of leaving single market and customs union and people still voted to leave.
It is too late to complain now that your side failed to make its own case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:16 PM

I'm sorry, Keith, but those "facts," insofar as they weren't actually just hopeful predictions rather than facts, were laced with lies, sloganising and sordid appeals to prejudices, by both sides. The customs union and single market played tenth fiddle to "taking back control," not giving the EU our money and keeping foreigners out, including putting up posters showing long lines of foreign non-white undesirables and riding around in a bus with a massive lie painted on the side of it. You were actually in the country during the campaign, I take it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:25 PM

Like our courts it relied on both sides trying to convince of their own case and debunk the opposition's case.
It was a fair trial, and a verdict was reached.

Our elections are similarly conducted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:26 PM

"It is too late to complain..."

No it isn't, and that is an extremely undemocratic assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:27 PM

It was not an election and was absolutely nothing like a trial. You're losing it fast, Keith. Have a lie down.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:31 PM

Brexit is getting closer every minute. Yippee!

Terrible things facts.
"
By Tom McTague        6/12/16, 11:54 AM CET Updated 6/13/16, 2:35 PM CET

David Cameron confirmed Sunday that he will pull Britain out of the single market if there is a vote to leave the European Union at the upcoming referendum.

The prime minister told the BBC’s Andrew Marr show that it would be impossible to copy the Norwegian model by remaining inside the trading bloc despite being outside the EU because that would mean accepting freedom of movement and trade rules made in Brussels.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:32 PM

It is not undemocratic.
You complain that Remain failed to convince people of the implications of leaving.
Clearly, the other side made a better case and won.

The customs union and single market played tenth fiddle to "taking back control," not giving the EU our money.....

If true, Remain allowed it to happen.
They had the same opportunity to put the case as did their opponents.
It was a fair trial and a verdict was reached.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:35 PM

Here is a little sing along for the remoaners to play for themselves
as they are a little confused about what was said about Brexit before the referendum.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT2Vx9jSyjg

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:36 PM

It was not an election and was absolutely nothing like a trial.

The referendum, like trials and elections, was an adversarial debate.
Both sides put their case and the jury decides.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:40 PM

Clearly, the other side made a better case and won.

You mean the leave side told better lies?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 01:01 PM

Steve, having been forced to go into store by the delivery being hijacked by Siberians I have got round to buying Mossers Nero d'Avolo. It is indeed very good. I suspect I will regret having opened it at 6pm

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 02:06 PM

"Both sides put their case and the jury decides."

I wonder just how many innocent people have been executed by the state using this scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 02:44 PM

Rag,
I wonder just how many innocent people have been executed by the state using this scenario.

You would replace jury trial with what Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 02:46 PM

Bought four bottles of it meself this morning. Uphill struggle to get one open as Mrs Steve is on a crusade to not drink on three nights a week, and Thursday, tragically, is one of them. We hadn't had a flake of snow here until lunchtime today but were well and truly snowed in now with a gale blowing it around everywhere.


UPDATE: She was easily persuaded...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 02:47 PM

Dave,
You mean the leave side told better lies?

OK, but also more believable truths and a better rebutting of Remain's lies.

The referendum, like trials and elections, was an adversarial debate.
Both sides put their case and the jury decides.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:30 PM

You've taken your silly metaphor way too far and now you're just making an arse of yourself.

("Making?" Did I really say that?)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:36 PM

Thank you for that acknowledgement, Keith.

One problem with your trial analogy. The jury would comprise of 12 good men and true. They are given 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth'. They are advised by a learned judge on any points that may be unclear.

This did not happen with the referendum. There were a sight more than 12 men. We have no idea how many of those were good and true. They were fed a diet of lies. They were 'advised' by politicians with hidden agendas.

No comparison at all really.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:39 PM

And don't forget there is amechanism to appeal decisions if new evidence comes to light or the trial was otherwise faulty.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:40 PM

You've taken your silly metaphor way too far and now you're just making an arse of yourself.

No he's not, you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:44 PM

Oh my God! It's contagious. Bobad has caught school playground syndrome from Iains!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 03:55 PM

Ignore him. There's no cure. And good point indeed, DMcG. The right of appeal! But these 'ere brexiteers don't want that. They think that 51.8% out of 72% is a resounding victory and that we're being undemocratic when we protest and actually try to save the country from doom. They're wrong. Unless we can change things there are hard times to come. No doubt they'll blame it on the phases of the moon or something.