BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 05:56 AM

The Telegraph is not "connected" to any political party.
None of our newspapers are.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 05:25 AM

Are you giving us opinion or fact? or opinion as fact?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 05:13 AM

"Even the Dandy and Beano could spell correctly unlike the above socialist rag."
That is a forty year old joke - nothing more
The standard of journalism in the Guardian is as high as any
More importantly, the non partisan depth of its journalism, alongside that of The Independent, outstrips any in Britain
Unlike the Telegraph, neither are connected to a specific political party.
Apart from The Daily Mirror, all the rest are firmly in the right camp - why not when most of them are owned by scum like Rupert Mudoch
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

Well at first glance it would seem that the Guardian has more Liberal voters than the Mail or Express.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:52 AM

Lies lies and more dammed lies???????

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/voting-newspaper-readership-1992-2010

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:48 AM

Well Dave I think after the last referendum a sensible person would be very wary of placing too much faith in any sort of poll involving Joe Public. There is no way of cross checking the true feelings of the person being polled. Are they honest, mischievous, or just trying to throw a spanner in the works? I could be any one of those, depending upon the question being asked.
But in the case of the above link the conclusions are hardly controversial and most people would be in broad agreement with the result. One can hardly regard the guardian as being off way to the right of Attila the Hun.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:42 AM

What arrant nonsense Iains, firstly the article only gives "peoples perception" of where newspapers lie politically> Secondly even if we acknowledge those numbers, only 16% consider the Guardian to be very left wing. When you also consider that 3% of those people also consider the Daily Mail to be very left wing it doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:38 AM

may I remind you it is the figures and derivation of the figures that is crucial, not who publicised them.

Not so. As one who studied statistics, albeit only to a low level, one of the first things that you learn is that who collects the figures and how is of vital importance. A survey on the effects of chocolate done by Cadbury's is likely to show a different slant than one commissioned by the BDA.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:31 AM

It is so nice to see the delusion continue. To automatically label all that does not fit your ideology as false news is the hallmark of a ....?

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/07/how-left-or-right-wing-are-uks-newspapers/

and to short circuit the usual squawks may I remind you it is the figures and derivation of the figures that is crucial, not who publicised them.

After all do I automatically discount everything the gruniard publishes because it is a left wing rag? _ of course not! I just confirm other sources can validify the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:46 PM

Utterly bloody ridiculous. And I'm supposed to be ignoring him!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:21 PM

You really do talk total, complete, and unadulterated bollocks, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 03:35 PM

"the Guardian's high journalistic standards" Even the Dandy and Beano could spell correctly unlike the above socialist rag. It is a staunchly leftwing newspaper supported by Labour members, unlike the daily wail that is proud to be the most rightwing UK publication. The Gruniard is closely followed by many teachers. In fact I can remember a schoolmaster of mine announcing to the class in 1959 that the Manchester Guardian would in future be called the Guardian. At 8 or 9 years old did I really give a sh*t?

It is interesting that the left has few newspapers, unlike the center and right. This is probably because papers like the guardian use the same approach to economics as successive Labour governments and, as been seen so many times,it is simply not viable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:06 PM

I am opposed to a second referendum on the same grounds I was opposed to the first: we are asking people with very little of the subject to decide on it. I know there are some obsessives who have followed every twist and turn, but most people haven't.

However, I am forced to temper that a bit because it relied on those who are actually paid to take a detailed interest, the politicians, actually thinking hard about it. There is little evidence that many of those are doing so either (witness the 'impact assessments') ...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:14 PM

Probably as Likely as your posting one from an anti-Brexit source!

I have linked to several Guardian articles.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 09:58 AM

You are quite correct Jim, however I have actually posted one thread with potentially good news about Brexit.

Admittedly it is the ONLY one I have seen that could be construed that way.

See my post of 2nd January at 05.24pm

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 09:30 AM

The Guardian article that Raggytash linked to was not an anti-brexit article, Keith. It was a news report that, in line with the Guardian's high journalistic standards, reported the finding of Khan's study perfectly neutrally. There is none of that Daily Mail news-mixed-with-tendentious-side-taking that you get every day in that filthy rag. And I might add that, in view of your own propensity for promoting just one side exclusively of any issue you discuss here, you are the very last person on earth who should be upbraiding anyone else for not providing "balance." You wouldn't know what "balance" was if it reared up and bit you on the arse.

I've changed my mind about a second referendum. I've been thinking for a while now that if one were called the British public would be so alienated by a renewed leave campaign that would be oh so easy to execute by slogan that they would vote leave in even greater numbers. The way out of this morass is for the political parties to decide en masse that they should, for once, ditch party priorities and put the interests of the country first. It could be that things will look so bad in the next few months that events could move in that direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 09:21 AM

"Will you now link to a pro Brexit article from a pro-Brexit paper for balance?"
Probably as Likely as your posting one from an anti-Brexit source!
What a bizarre way of understanding discussion!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 09:20 AM

Other things we may be able to look forward to:

What, no deal !

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 09:11 AM

I did not attribute anything to the link Nigel, I gave the link but said:

" I wonder if now, after realising how disastrous Brexit may be, he is having a rethink and doesn't want to be the person blamed for a catastrophe for decades to come."

It is quite clear for you, I said "I wonder ........."

My "musings" would not have been valid without the link which stated that " Nigel Farage backs fresh referendum to kill off issue"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 09:09 AM

It implies no such thing.

This looks a bit fishy.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 08:59 AM

Politicians may not always say what they mean. But that is no reason to post a link, and attribute to it something which was not said in the link.

Raggytash's musings could have been given without the link. Adding the link gives the implies that it will contain something to back up the musings.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 07:54 AM

Yes, absolutely Nigel. Politicians always say exactly what they mean, mean what they say and, above all else, always tell the truth. Particularly good ol' Nige.

Now, I have formed this new party and am looking for members to fund an exciting project on ending world poverty. Can I sign you up?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 07:40 AM

I wonder if now, after realising how disastrous Brexit may be, he is having a rethink and doesn't want to be the person blamed for a catastrophe for decades to come.

No, I believe he stated his reasons quite clearly in the link you gave:

So maybe, just maybe, I'm reaching the point of thinking that we should have a second referendum on EU membership ; unless you want to have a multiple choice referendum, which would confuse people. I think that if we had a second referendum on EU membership we would kill it off for a generation.

The percentage that would vote to leave next time would be very much bigger than it was last time round. And we may just finish the whole thing off. And Blair can disappear off into total obscurity

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 07:23 AM

Another interesting article in todays Guardian.

A report that indicates that Farage is not opposed to a second referendum. I wonder if now, after realising how disastrous Brexit may be, he is having a rethink and doesn't want to be the person blamed for a catastrophe for decades to come.



Farage rethink

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM

Nigel, You perhaps missed the bit where I said "just how big a mistake that MAY prove to be."

Note the use of the word "MAY"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:38 AM

I have always considered that the UK has made a huge mistake in voting for Brexit, an article in todays press suggests just how big a mistake that may prove to be.

Half a million jobs

Sounds very much like the projections which were being made for an immediate loss of jobs if we voted for Brexit.

'Project fear' version 2 (or 3, or whatever it has got up to now)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:33 AM

Yes Rag.
The Guardian is well known for its anti-Brexit stance.
Will you now link to a pro Brexit article from a pro-Brexit paper for balance?

We could all post articles at each other every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:13 AM

I have always considered that the UK has made a huge mistake in voting for Brexit, an article in todays press suggests just how big a mistake that may prove to be.

Half a million jobs

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:44 AM

Congratulations on being so selective. The other side of the coin is that if agriculture reverted to the techniques and chemical regime of many decades ago the population would inevitably shrink.
That is fine for the winners, not so good for the losers - although they could probably be recycled as fertilizer.

Once upon a time DDT was regarded as the best thing since sliced bread.
I believe Rachel Carson demolished that illusion.
Better hope genetically modified food does not exhibit similar unwelcome traits as time goes by.

Advances in any field progress in fits and starts, both forward and backward.
You, of all people, should appreciate this, being a well Edu........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 04:38 PM

"Farmers already are required to be environmentally friendly"

Such as dousing land with neonicotinoids that decimate insects and songbirds, growing fields of maize on slopes that causes soil erosion, cultivating hundreds of acres of hedge-free barley prairies, growing Miscanthus elephant grass monoculture for biofuel on land that should be used for growing food, indulging in fads such as linseed that can only be harvested after scorched-earth dessicating herbicide treatment, thousands of acres of oilseed that can be grown only via intensive chemical input and which harbours flea beetles and pollen beetles...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 03:49 PM

Raggytash. My problem is the statement "farmers will have to do environmentally friendly things". If the phrase was qualified with "more", then I would have no issue. Farmers already are required to be environmentally friendly, and that requirement goes back many years. The REPS system in Ireland and the GLAS payments are but 2 examples. Similar schemes have been introduced in the UK.
Additionally Natura 2000 is a European network of important ecological sites. The EU Habitats Directive (92/43/EEC) placed an obligation on Member States of the EU to establish the Natura 2000 network. The network is made up of Special Protection Areas (SPAs), established under the EU Birds Directive (79/409/EEC), and SACs. Most of these areas are in private ownership.

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/nature/natura2000/sites/index_en.htm
Any farmer that owns land designated above no longer has freedom to farm as he might wish. What he can do is governed by diktat from on high. For example stocking numbers, upland management schemes, planning permission required for fencing, the list goes on.

My take is that upland farmers will be paid for custodianship of the landscape, that with the possible exception of a few isolated, limited areas, is largely a wholly artificial construction. (e.g.Killarney Lakes woodland, Wistmans Wood)
If one wishes to make the argument more should be done in the way of greening then again I would have no argument, although some of the absurdities of the present system should be ironed out. I find it ridiculous that one hill can be labelled SAC and the adjacent one blathered with wind turbines. I also find it strange that a boundary for a Special Conservation Area coincides with county boundaries. Isn't that just sooo convenient and scientific!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:30 AM

Yes Nigel there is a difference between PRIOR COMMITMENTS and potential FUTURE FUNDING.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:12 AM

From that link:
Those seeking contracts with the commission across seven programmes worth billions of pounds are instructed that if a procurement process runs beyond Brexit day, their application will be rejected and they will not be able to recoup funds spent during the process.

Is this the same EU that insists on UK making massive payments to cover 'prior commitments'?

Maybe we should make clear that we will reduce the 'Brexit bill' accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 07:50 AM

Sorry Iains, what Steve posted is quite clear and lucid. I don't understand what problem you have with it. Could it be that because there is absolutely no good news to report on the Brexit negotiations that you feel you have to attack the way a post is written?.


That potential troubles may lie ahead for numerous firms in the UK is yet another gloomy report to todays Guardian.


Loss of Funding

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 07:41 AM

" Farmers are GOING TO HAVE DO ENVIRONMENTALLY NICE THINGS, as yet unspecified, and open the land up, etc. (sure, let the public trample all over their fields!), before they'll get any dough"
You appear to have a problem with tenses. Past present future. Just sayin like.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 05:34 AM

That was pretty pointless. You haven't actually negated anything I've said, yet you saw an opportunity to be rude.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 05:11 AM

If UK farming no longer had support post brexit then Agriculture would shrink dramatically.Farming like any other business needs to keep in the black to survive. The EU has featherbedded farmers for decades (entitlements of tax payers money can be bought and sold). In or out of the EU subsidies cannot be eradicated without dire consequence.
And for our resident "well educated scientist", greening has been an essential part of farm payments for a considerable time.
I am surprised you do not acknowledge this, being an expert like!
" Farmers are going to have to do environmentally nice things, as yet unspecified, and open the land up, etc. (sure, let the public trample all over their fields!), before they'll get any dough"

Environmental measures were specified many years ago and getting more pervasive each year. Let us all have a few links to support your preposterous statement!


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/bps-2018
https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/sites/agriculture/files/leaflet_en.pdf

https://www.soilassociation.org/blogs/2017/february/payment-windows-for-organic-farmers-opening-across-the-uk/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 04:26 AM

You haven't read the piece properly, Nigel. The alleged breach concerns lack of consultation prior to the passing of the repeal bill. The bill doesn't need to have passed into law first. And it seems to me, on a first reading of the link, that we are legally bound by the convention. And the word "international" need not embrace every country in the world. The Six Nations rugby matches are called international matches.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 03:07 AM

From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:18 AM
Even more potential bother for the UK Government it seems they MAY have broken International Law

From your link:

A UN-backed committee has confirmed it is considering a complaint from Friends of the Earth that the government?s EU withdrawal bill breached the Aarhus convention, which requires public consultation on any new environmental law.

"May have broken" (past tense?)
That law (the Withdrawal Bill) has not yet been passed.

"Broken international law": The Aarhus convention is just that, a convention, not a law. Also it is a European convention. That does not really equate with "international" which would seem to suggest relating to all nations.
Also the convention grants the public a right to review changes, once they have happened. So we need to see whether there is an environmental impact of the Withdrawal Bill before deciding whether there is any recourse under the convention.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 06:09 PM

MPs could vote to rejoin customs union after Brexit

Ok, that's more theoretical than likely, and even if they did the EU might not play along. but it is an interesting outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:45 AM

Four years and four months from now, actually, Keith, according to most sources. That's a lot less time than you claim, and very little is set in stone anyway. We all know what happened to the £350 million a week, don't we? Anyway, then what?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:18 AM

Even more potential bother for the UK Government it seems they MAY have broken International Law


Bother

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:50 AM

From: Steve Shaw

What's that, Nigel? Pounds per year from now on for the NHS?
Total number of posts so far in this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:40 AM

Hi Steve

We were put on to McCallan many years ago when we were in PortPatrick in Scotland. It was two Coppers who were moonlighting as minders to a brand new up and coming star " who is going to be bigger than Elvis.....called Rick Astley !!!

"Talisker ordinary 10-year-old is a class act" I have a bottle unstarted. Tonight I will open it and see what I think,

" I blame brexit, global warming and Trump. And Mourinho. And Mansour. And Thatcher. And Chamberlain. And Sir Ian McGregor. And why should Disraeli get away unscathed...".    No you can't blame Maurinho, he ony drinks wine.!!!

"Ahah, I see Yeovil have got Man U next round! Liverpool seem to have it easy but that's exactly the sort of match they can screw up...""

Yea that's the beauty of the FA Cup. Nothing is safe. At least Liverpool are at home, We have to go to Yeovil and they have shifted some good teams in their history.

Cheers hic !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:38 AM

"Farmers will be guaranteed the same level of subsidy they now receive from the European Union for five years after Brexit in a government U-turn expected to cost more than £10 billion."

"Mr Gove has repeatedly criticised the CAP and its central concept of paying farmers according to the amount of land they own. More than two thirds of the £3 billion that farmers receive annually under the CAP is paid per acre, with subsidies accounting for more than half their total income."

"Several billionaires are among recipients of the highest farm subsidies under the CAP, including Khalid Abdullah al-Saud, who breeds racehorses on a Newmarket farm that receives more than £400,000 a year. There are 39 recipients of £1 million or more a year, including farms owned by Sir James Dyson, the inventor who backed Brexit."

"He will say that the new system of subsidies will “build on” the EU’s system, under which less than a third of total payments are linked to “countryside stewardship”, adding: “We will design a scheme accessible to almost any landowner or manager who wishes to enhance the natural environment by planting woodland, providing new habitats for wildlife, increasing biodiversity, contributing to improved water quality and returning cultivated land to wildflower meadows or other more natural states.” Mr Gove will also pledge more money to farmers who agree to club together to provide environmental benefits over large areas."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-gove-forced-to-plough-10bn-into-farm-grants-after-brexit-vpnpmdsx7

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM

Steve,
Do keep up, Keith. The government is not replacing subsidies to farmers like-for-like.

No, and the criteria for grants have yet to be established.
How clever of you to know already how it will work out.

What we do know for a fact is that we have always paid much more in to the CAP than our farmers get back.
After Brexit there will be more, as I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM

No it's the number of stances the Government has had on Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:47 AM

What's that, Nigel? Pounds per year from now on for the NHS?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:33 AM

2400

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 09:27 AM

Well I won't mess with your two two, Raggytash...

And Jeremy *unt stood his ground, told Theresa who's boss and not only kept the job she didn't want him in but got extra on top!

I'm going to write to Justine Greening and tell her to join the Labour Party where she's always belonged.

And Esther McVey - bwahahahaha!

Ain't no time for wonderin' why, whooppee, we all gonna die!