BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 04:27 AM

Spot on DMcG. All of the bad news reported in this thread should be in some way brexit related. What we are seeking is brexit related good news and I cannot see how the deficit reduction is such a beast. If it is, great.

Back to Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 04:10 AM

Cross party support to prevent 'No deal'

Well, we will just have to wait and see what happens over the next few weeks, especially when the trade bill is voted on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:54 AM

Chancellors

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:51 AM

Quite so. Pertinance is what matters. Then whether it is good or bad.

It is worth reminding people that while I very much think leaving is one of the worst ideas we have had for several centuries, I also reject the claim all problems are due to Brexit. I can't remember if it was this thread or another where the University pay of cancelled tried to claim Brexit was part of the justification. I did not think so and said so. Not all problems are due to Brexit, nor is all good news.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:51 AM

So bad news is down to Brexit and pertinent, but good news is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:40 AM

I am not arguing, Stanron. I am asking how the news about the deficit is related to brexit. I agree wholeheartedly that it is good news. I would just like you to explain how voting to leave the EU has helped to achieve the reduction. All the bad economic news reported on this thread has had a link as being partially down to economic uncertainty due to brexit. Nowhere can I find anything claiming that this good news is even partially down to the prospect of leaving Europe. If it is, great, that is what we are looking for. But I cannot find that link and hope that you can provide it.

Over to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 02:15 AM

Are comments about bad economic news pertinent to this thread?
They are never questioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 05:05 PM

Answer is (a).

And we talk about it because you did seem to think it relevant, so we are interested in why you think that. You could have an insight that has escaped us.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:58 PM

If Keith A's response is not sufficient for you, and I wouldn't expect it to be, then try this;

either

a: my comment is not pertinent to this thread, and if so why do you keep going on about it?

or

b: it is in the right place but you would rather have an arguement than good news.

If a; is correct then no more will be said. If the truth is b; I await your next posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:33 PM

I am more than happy to wait for your reply Stanron. No rush. I guess you do not need someone to speak for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:19 PM

It is good news for the economy.
If bad news is to do with Brexit, so is good news.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:55 AM

I still don't follow that. How is the deficit news anything to do with brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:29 AM

Dave the Gnome wrote: and that is to do with brexit in what way?

Raggytash wrote: Incidentally does anyone have any good news about Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 06:56 AM

and that is to do with brexit in what way?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 06:38 AM

How convenient is it for the preponderance of remoaners on here to have missed the mention on the Daily Politics that the deficit is no more?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 04:00 AM

The date of Brexit gets closer, obviously. What Brexit means seems to be getting less clear, if that is possible.   As demonstated by the row about the two UK proposals for the Irish border where we cannot even agree on the UK side if we would accept either or one is "cretinous'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:53 AM

"Incidentally does anyone have any good news about Brexit?"

Each time you post the phrase above brexit comes closer.
That is fantastic news! Keep posting!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:42 AM

In answer to your other question there is the following from that article

Last week, the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, hinted that interest rates could rise more gradually than expected due to continuing uncertainty over Brexit and "mixed data" on the economy.

Good news for borrowers but had news for savers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:15 AM

There you go.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:56 AM

Am item on the BBC News today suggests that economic growth in the UK in the first quarter was lower than any other sine 2012. Could someone please provide a link.

Incidentally does anyone have any good news about Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 01:07 PM

More Government defeats today in the House of Lords.

Some may think I am gleeful about this: I am not. The bill as passed to the Lords had many flaws as was pointed out on the Commons and I don't think anything sent back for further consideration had not been criticised in the Commons. Forcing something through with known problems just because you can is a bad way of making law. I would particularly single out those Lords amendments the government accepted without a need for a vote in the House of Lords.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:48 AM

Damn! I didn't realise someone had already published my plan to become a benign dictator.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:31 AM

There was a Peter Cook show years back where he essentially did that and got everyone to vote via a black box on every little detail of governance. After a few month everyone was sick to death so he offered a vote where he would take all the decisions to take the load off them. And so became an absolute ruler.

A comedy with a serious point...

I was talking about voting in referenda not simply as a modern replacement of postal votes. Apart from the security concerns, the main concern I have there is that it a natural extension to use it in referenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:24 AM

Well, I don't think it is as daft as it sounds with the controls I mentioned earlier. Beats MPs who are swayed by pressure groups and high powered lobbyists in a lot of cases anyway. People can be more easily vetted online that in real life!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 04:11 AM

I wasn't suggesting a voting app as a good idea, Nigel: it was sarcastic. In fact, I think it is an appalling one that would replace any considered form of governance with mob rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:20 AM

That's one problem with referendums: they are so 'moreish'. In fact, why not abolish Parliament as a whole and use a voting app?

One day it may become possible. But at present those e-petitions do not appear to have strict control preventing non-UK citizens (or UK persons with no vote) from adding their names, they remain advisory only. To create an app it would need to be at least as secure as our current voting system. The recent referendum was held under the same conditions as an election, with the same associated costs.

I can't see this being taken forward as a valid option any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:44 AM

In fact, why not abolish Parliament as a whole and use a voting app?

You know, DMcG, I have mooted that very point myself. It would need a period of study followed by a quiz to confirm that you understand the issue before you vote but I think it is not such an outlandish idea for lots of issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:05 PM

Nigel said:Revision of proposed laws is not the role of the House of Lords. Suggesting revisions is. 

I said:You and I understand that but those who say the Lords are overruling the Commons may not

In evidence, I offer an e-petition currently at around 112,000:
=====
Give the electorate a referendum on the abolition of the House of Lords

The House of Lords is a place of patronage where unelected and unaccountable individuals hold a disproportionate amount of influence and power which can be used to frustrate the elected representatives of the people
=====

That's one problem with referendums: they are so 'moreish'. In fact, why not abolish Parliament as a whole and use a voting app?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 02:51 PM

"And Nigel, the fact that Parliament was obliged to vote on whether to invoke Article 50, a vote separate from the earlier one on whether to hold a referendum, confirms that it was a separate matter from the in-out vote."
That may possibly be true but I think a more likely explanation of the mess is than a vote for out was not contemplated, and the necessary legislation to make it fly without dispute, simply did not occur. Aspects of the out vote that were not specifically addressed will be subject to dispute until(if) Brexit occurs. It does not help that the Government does not appear to give the result it's fullest support.
The departure negotiations are like watching a tadpole swimming through treacle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:21 PM

I'm sorry, Nigel, but when you talk about "disenfranchised" in the context of parliamentary democracy it means that you have improperly been prevented from voting. Your argument about both main parties being at odds with your views in no way means that you have been disenfranchised. I'm not nitpicking at all here, chaps and chapesses. Millions of people oppose abortion in this country but they won't get to vote on it directly, and the main parties are in general accord that abortion is permitted. Lots of other controversial issues, the same. Our setup is that we elect politicians to make major policy decisions, and if the majority party happens to decide on a policy with which the opposition agrees (it happens), but with which you disagree, you can't then can't go bleating around that you're disenfranchised, which is precisely what Nigel did. And Nigel, the fact that Parliament was obliged to vote on whether to invoke Article 50, a vote separate from the earlier one on whether to hold a referendum, confirms that it was a separate matter from the in-out vote. In theory, it could legitimately have gone the other way and you could have had no complaints as the courts had decided that it was not an automatic follow-on from the referendum. Get it? Lots of things in political life to grumble about, but that's how it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:37 PM

Only when applied to a certain circumstance, Raggy. Out of interest it was one of the moderation team who first applied it in that way

Nigel. Steve queried it. You then made a massive issue out of that query. You really are getting to be as much a bore with your diversionary tactics and linguistic antics as the master of it. This is not a compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 11:29 AM

Hoops is fine Dave, anyone can use it as far as I'm concerned. In fact the more the merrier!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 11:21 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:24 AM

Once again arguing about the semantics of a particular word when everyone else fully understands how it was intended does no favours to your case, Nigel.

Read back, it was Steve Shaw who queried the use of a particular word.
I used it in an accepted context as shown by my later reference (as requested) to a dictionary.

Perhaps you should be complaining about Steve Shaw's nit-picking?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:39 AM

Invoking Article 50 was a separate issue from the referendum vote, which was advisory, lest we forget. Had it not been a separate issue, there would have been no need for a parliamentary vote on it.

At the time of the referendum most people would have believed that a vote to leave would be implemented.
It took a high court case to prevent Article 50 being issued without endorsement by parliament. As you say 'lest we forget', or should that be "how soon people forget"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:35 AM

Iains - Go and find your own catchphrase!

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:28 AM

Hoops Nigel, Hoops!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:24 AM

Once again arguing about the semantics of a particular word when everyone else fully understands how it was intended does no favours to your case, Nigel.

Your case, as I understand it, is that it will all turn out for the best in the end.

While I fully understand that experts are not always right, I prefer to stick with the opinion of most of the world economists rather than the follow Farage brigade.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 09:50 AM

Invoking Article 50 was a separate issue from the referendum vote, which was advisory, lest we forget. Had it not been a separate issue, there would have been no need for a parliamentary vote on it. As it happens, I was not disenfranchised by the fact that no major party opposed Article 50, any more than you were disenfranchised by the fact that no major party was in favour of leaving the EU. There is no rule in parliamentary democracy that states that both sides of an issue must be represented in Parliament. No major party now opposes abortion or is pro-hanging or pro-foxhunting with dogs. No major party wants homosexuality to be illegal. No major party is opposed to gay marriage. Millions of people in this country disagree with each of those consensuses. They are not disenfranchised. They merely live in a parliamentary democracy in which some things are inevitably disagreeable to some people. Lots of people even. You can't just cherrypick your own bee-in-bonnet issue to moan that you were disenfranchised over it and ignore the other issues just because it suits your supposed case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:40 AM

So any time you feel that Parliament's makeup doesn't allow for the reflections of your own views you're disenfranchised, eh?

No, my single vote makes very little difference, but when neither of the major parties represent the view of the majority of the voting public then the public are being disenfranchised.


do you think that I'm disenfranchised by the fact that the major parties both voted for Article 50, a move I vehemently disagreed with,

No.
The issuing of Article 50 was a direct consequence of the referendum to leave the EU. You had already had your opportunity to vote on that. An opportunity offered to the whole electorate of the UK, and one in which the majority of those voting chose to end our membership of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:31 AM

Which dictionary?
Cambridge online

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:25 AM

Resorting to arguments as to who promised what in the context of UK party politics is specious, but ok, I'll join in anyway. The Tories promised to get rid of the deficit by 2015 and to reduce net migration to the tens of thousands. Cameron promised to trigger Article 50 by June 28 2016 in the event of a leave vote. Any more for any more?

Just a small point: the "swivel-eyed loons" remark was made by a party aide, much to Cameron's embarrassment. Not so much a case of "the Tories" saying it, more a case of a lack of internal party discipline.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:11 AM

So any time you feel that Parliament's makeup doesn't allow for the reflections of your own views you're disenfranchised, eh? So what about those other examples I gave you, and do you think that I'm disenfranchised by the fact that the major parties both voted for Article 50, a move I vehemently disagreed with? Or is it ok when the boot's on the other foot? And which dictionary, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 06:10 AM

UKIP could have been stopped by any governing party worth its salt by showing them up as the petty xenophobic racists that they are.

You forget how rude the Tories were about them. They did accuse them of racism and called them "swivel eyed loons."
The fact remains that outside of Westminster most people did not like being in the EU.
UKIP offered a referendum and that would have won them a large vote in the general election. They had already won the EU election.

That is why all the parties, not just the Tories, also promised a referendum.

Yes, but the Labour Party have a history of "promising a referendum".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:54 AM

taking Steve's suggestion I consulted a dictionary:

disenfranchise

not having the right to vote, or a similar right, or having had that right taken away:

?having no power to make people listen to your opinion or to affect the society you live in:

I think that the second point aptly shows that the majority of voters were previously disenfranchised over the matter of leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:51 AM

UKIP could have been stopped by any governing party worth its salt by showing them up as the petty xenophobic racists that they are.

You forget how rude the Tories were about them. They did accuse them of racism and called them "swivel eyed loons."
The fact remains that outside of Westminster most people did not like being in the EU.
UKIP offered a referendum and that would have won them a large vote in the general election. They had already won the EU election.

That is why all the parties, not just the Tories, also promised a referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:49 AM

"Labour Party polling stations" implies that elections for Radcliffe Council and the Bury and Radcliffe constituency (as was) were outrageously rigged. Insert "at" at your leisure!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:41 AM

When governments make decisions that you disagree with, you are not "disenfranchised." You will have had your say in who governs, and next time round you can vote them out. There is no democratic imperative that ensures that both sides of an argument are represented in parliament. Millions of people agreed with Enoch Powell's call for repatriation of blacks. The fact that no major party backed him does not mean that those millions were disenfranchised. Millions of people would like to bring back hanging. The fact that there is no parliamentary appetite for it doesn't mean that all those people are disenfranchised. The fact that there is no split along party lines for legalising fox hunting with dogs doesn't mean that thousands of hooray Henrys are disenfranchised. You have the vote and things don't always go your way. Not since I was a little lad collecting numbers for the Labour Party polling stations, except for a couple of years when I lived in Poplar, have I lived in a constituency that had a Labour MP but that doesn't mean that I've been disenfranchised (or that I've always lived in posh areas). You're disenfranchised, or at least have yet to become enfranchised, because you're under 18 for example, when you're prevented from voting at all. The referendum result was a complete disaster and I was devastated by it, but, as I was allowed to vote in it, I'm not disenfranchised by the outcome. Your complaint that no major party wanted out of the EU rings hollow now that no major party has either voted against having a referendum or against Article 50. You're hardly fighting my corner for me, are you, about the fact that, according to your stance (not mine), I've been disenfranchised? To take your argument to the absurd, no major party is in support of making free chip butties available on street corners at Saturday kicking-out time, a policy I could find myself fighting for (and losing). Doesn't mean I'd be disenfranchised, no matter how foolish tbe decision to reject the policy.   Resort to a dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:14 AM

Nonsense. UKIP could have been stopped by any governing party worth its salt by showing them up as the petty xenophobic racists that they are. Their ridiculous claims about immigrants ruining the economy should have been show up for what they were - Just scapegoating to distract people away from how the country had been mismanaged. Unfortunately Cameron and Co were the party guilty of mismanagement and they compounded it by being so shit scared of an unelected pressure group that they caved in.

Nevertheless, the outcome of the referendum has made it patently clear that leaving the EU was the will of the majority of the voters*. As neither 'major party' was going to move on the matter, they were right to fear that UKIP would continue to gain in influence if nothing was done about the call for separation from the EU. As such a referendum was an option which avoided splitting either party over the issue. It was a referendum of convenience. The major parties underestimated the numbers who would support Brexit.

*voters: Those who actually vote, as opposed to 'electorate' or 'population'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:53 AM

Along came UKIP, and they started getting sufficient votes that the only way they could be stopped was by the promise of a referendum.

Nonsense. UKIP could have been stopped by any governing party worth its salt by showing them up as the petty xenophobic racists that they are. Their ridiculous claims about immigrants ruining the economy should have been show up for what they were - Just scapegoating to distract people away from how the country had been mismanaged. Unfortunately Cameron and Co were the party guilty of mismanagement and they compounded it by being so shit scared of an unelected pressure group that they caved in.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:46 AM

Sorry Nigel, I take that back. You and I understand that but those who say the Lords are overruling the Commons may not.