BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:19 PM

"Both sides put their case and the people chose."
Only one side placed the race card - that's what won Brexit - by blaming immigrants for the state of Britain (Hitler chose the Jews as scapegoats
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:12 PM

They have, Iains. As far as I know never so cynically and blatantly as during the referendum campaign though. From Boris's bus to Farage's line of potential terrorists to Osbourne's threatened emergency budget it was one lie after another.

But I am with Steve on this. A second referendum would be wrong and far too divisive. We just need to make sure we get the best out of a bad job and understand who fucked us over in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:05 PM

It was a cynically misinformed electorate.

Misinformed by who?
Both sides put their case and the people chose.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:50 PM

The electorate is always misinformed if they rely exclusively on election manifestos. The space between the ears is supposedly for critical thinking, not a mechanism for enabling obesity. The problem with brexit is that the legislation to make the result binding should have been passed by parliament and confirmed prior to the referendum. The wriggle room resulting from that fiasco will be exploited to the full and in years to come brexit will likely be regarded as the event that never was.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:35 PM

It was worse than an uninformed electorate Steve. It was a cynically misinformed electorate.

BTW I am enjoying a glass of Lidl's excellent Gavi as I type. Highly recommended.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:31 PM

"The German People electd tye Nazi Party - how many terms did the British peole give self-confessed fascist, Thatcher?"
Lost the spellchecker, plot and the medication I think! How else to explain such garbage?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:24 PM

So those politicians you put so much faith in will vote for anything to preserve their lovely jobs.

Politicians are people too, surprising as that may seem. I am not asking asking anyone to tell us, but I suspect most of us who are long in the tooth have done things to preserve our jobs under instruction from elsewhere, even though we thought it mistaken (I don't mean criminal, just not the best way of proceeding)

The politicians voting on Article 50 had a difficult time precisely because of the referendum. They we elected to use their judgement, then told the population in their constituency disagreed with that judgement. I do not envy them: I cannot be certain of what I would have done In their position.

None of that changes the point they are elected to take decisions for us. If I hired someone - Iains maybe - to fix the roof of my house I would have chosen him after looking at the alternatives and bidders and history with other customers and then would expect him to to the job I hired him for. I would not expect him to be continually knocking on the door asking me to decide how to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:07 PM

Steve,
Had they voted against they'd have been toast.

So those politicians you put so much faith in will vote for anything to preserve their lovely jobs.
Perhaps we should have more referendums.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:47 PM

""I don't want the government and opposition "to follow the will of the people."
That takes care of democracy then."
The German People electd tye Nazi Party - how many terms did the British peole give self-confessed fascist, Thatcher?
There's a difference between democracy and populism
Brexit was arrived at by turning one section of the people against the other
Whence democracy then
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:59 PM

The whole point of elections is that the wishes of the minority bloc of voters can be "disregarded." That's how it works. I just gave you a little list of the kinds of things that governments do, or don't do, which probably go against the wishes of the majority. When's the last time you "wished" that the tax on petrol, or your council tax, would go up? We elect governments to run the country in the general interest, not kowtow to the whims of the populace which would often be predicated on self-interest or prejudice. In the case of the referendum the wishes of sixteen million voters have been "disregarded." And false equivalence indeed, Keith. The decision to hold the referendum was a dereliction of the duties of an elected parliament. It was a terrible decision which effectively held hundreds of MPs hostage. Had they voted against they'd have been toast. It put the future of the country in the hands of an uninformed electorate. And the disgraceful referendum campaign did nothing to inform them. The opposite, in fact. Brainless slogans aimed at the feeble-minded and gullible ruled the roost.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:37 PM

"We elect politicians to make the big decisions in the interests of the country

Those same elected politicians made the decision to have the 2016 referendum, so you must be in favour of it."

Hey Troll, ever heard of 'False Equivalence'?
No? Google it, feeble-minded thick-head.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:25 PM

"I don't want the government and opposition "to follow the will of the people."

That takes care of democracy then. Not much point in having a vote if you are promptly disregarded. Brexit being a fine case in point.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:23 PM

We elect politicians to make the big decisions in the interests of the country

Those same elected politicians made the decision to have the 2016 referendum, so you must be in favour of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 11:16 AM

I don't want the government and opposition "to follow the will of the people." By that criterion we'd probably have hanging, flogging, obligatory singing of God Save The Queen, conscription and mass repatriation. We elect politicians to make the big decisions in the interests of the country, not pass the buck back to ordinary people who have far less grasp of the issues. And the opposition is there to challenge the government and hold it to account. The whole of the brexit process, from calling the referendum onward, has been a massive failure of democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 09:26 AM

Here we go, here we go, here we go...............................

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 09:13 AM

"Further confirmation of a black hole!"
Further evidence of an inability to provide an answer
Your behaviour here is reminiscent of a fractious child running around shouting "knickers" and "poo" in order to shock the adults - outrageous statements such as yours tend to amuse rather than shock
Up to now modern Britain actually has a proud history of taking in refugees from conflicts; sadly, our present generation has allowed that to be expunged from our psyche
Brexit was sold on a campaign of preventing both economic immigrants and refugees from wars we helped create
If pre and wartime Britain had adopted the attitude we are now adopting towards fleeing today's tyranny, there would be far less Jews in the workd than there are.
Now you are suggesting it is acceptable to benefit from products obtained through slave-labour-like conditions - not funny - not clever - and certainly not human
"It has reopened divisions in the party over Brexit and other issues."
If you care to read some of the commentary around what is happening in todays Labour Party rather than seizing every opportunity to denigrate it, you will find that the historical divisions have never gone away - there is still a battle between those who wish to use politics as a meal ticket and those who wish to return to the old principles
That's what many of the claims of "anti-semitism", sexual harassment", et-al are about
Owen was a failed contender for Corbyn's job and he is "reluctant to rule out the question of whether there are too many immigrants".
Personally, I am undecided on the question of his call for a second referendum - Corbyn seems to be following "the will of the people" approach" -hmmm?
Not sure of that, but I see the point of uniting the party around a strong, principled policy
The superfiacial approach you are taking is no less politicking than that taken by Owen and the rest of the dissidents - any stick to beat... will do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:54 AM

Thre cost of human lives by buyinbg taintd googs abaht it

More gibberish

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:02 AM

" The flak from mass casualties resulting from such a rollback would totally destroy the party responsible"
Politicians before people, do you mean?"

Further confirmation of a black hole!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:28 AM

Steve, the sacking was on topic and the reaction of Labour MPs to it relevant.
It has reopened divisions in the party over Brexit and other issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:54 AM

Wot abaht it?

Entire future of life as we know it abaht it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:42 AM

The idea of a bonfire of regulations is a cheap totally impractical soundbite.

Perhaps, but it is not one of mine. Do you want a link to all the politicians who have said it? Perhaps this link will suffice.

And this extract:

=====
Business Secretary Sajid Javid said:


“This government is delivering on its commitment to free firms from £10 billion of heavy-handed over-regulation and build a more productive Britain. Hundreds of businesses responded to our Cutting Red Tape reviews and we are taking decisive action based on their experiences.

“Whenever we need to introduce new rules, we will consider their impact and make savings elsewhere. Through the Enterprise Bill, we are extending the scope of our deregulation target to cover the actions of regulators, going further than ever before to tackle troublesome red tape.”

A One-in, Two-out rule was introduced by the previous administration, which was the first in recent history to reduce the overall burden of regulation on business. The move to One-in, Three-out for new government legislation raises the bar and will help drive delivery of the £10 billion target.

====

How often is legislation repealed rather than added to?
You are creating a remainer myth based on fantasy.

A "two for one", or a "three for one", policy is all about numbers, not the effect of those regulations, and it is government policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:37 AM

Owen Smith's overall stance is one that I can agree with, with the exception of his calling for a second referendum. He's dead right about sleepwalking into a "soft brexit" damaging the economy and I hope that Labour's lukewarmists are listening. But a second referendum goes against party policy and as he won't drop it he has to go. Any opportunistic raking up of "Labour's antisemitism problem" in this context is off-topic and vexatious. Apart from darling Keith who is acting like a dead dog with a dead bone about it, the Labour MPs he quotes, disaffected ex-Blairite-Brownites, are referring to a dead issue concerning a mural that has been scrubbed and about which Corbyn has openly admitted he was wrong. Oh for more politicians of principle!

Did you hear me, Keith? Off-topic. You're the first to moan and groan when any of us dare to do it, remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:35 AM

" The flak from mass casualties resulting from such a rollback would totally destroy the party responsible"
Politicians before people, do you mean?
Sounds good to me!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:20 AM

" Faced with protecting people or protecting their profits, too many go for the profit"
That is why the legislation is in place covering all aspects of life.
But it is also a one size fits all approach. Some are allowed to be killed/injured in order that the majority benefit. Vaccinations are a case in point. A very small minority suffer adverse effects. Similarly if you want a first class defence force accidents will inevitably happen, causing casualties.
The idea of a bonfire of regulations is a cheap totally impractical soundbite. The flak from mass casualties resulting from such a rollback would totally destroy the party responsible. That is not to say that a close re evaluation of legislation is not desirable. How often is legislation repealed rather than added to?
You are creating a remainer myth based on fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 05:42 AM

Let me be clearer (if only for Nigel!) I am not saying people are specifically calling for an end to regulations about fire doors. I am saying that the majority of regulations are either to agree some standard to simplify trade, or to enforce some 'quality of life' standard. "Bonfire of regulations" ideas tend to aim at the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 05:35 AM

Unless ethical shopping becomes embedded in legislation many will continue to buy at the lowest price

That is one approach. But historically we and other countries have favoured the opposite approach of regulating the producers to try to limit those effects. "The Polluter Pays principle", for example. Or requirements on fire safety in buildings to minimise one aspect of human cost. Animal welfare standards, and so on. These are regulations imposed on businesses that do increase their costs but we have as decided (we being the government, or the EU, or the local authority or whatever) that is the best way of sharing the cost-benefit.

This is why I am worried about "bonfire of the regulations" ideas. Certainly, they will typically reduce business costs. But that comes at an unstated price of risks, mainly to individual workers of customers.

Let me illustrate: there are regulations about fire doors in buildings like clubs. It is by no means rare to learn after a fire in such a building that the fire doors were chained shut. This happens because the fire doors are a potential way people can enter the clubs without paying, so to protect profits the more unscrupulous chain the doors (and unchain them when fire inspections take place.)

The regulation is there to protect. Faced with protecting people or protecting their profits, too many go for the profit. And the solution to this according to some? Get rid of the regulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 05:30 AM

"Wot abaht it?"
Thre cost of human lives by buyinbg taintd googs abaht it
Not a consideration on somebody who looks on 'lesser beings' as expendable
The same people squeal about immigrants coming to Britain wor work
A bunch of stereotypes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 05:20 AM

"What about sustainability? Human cost? Environmental damage?"
Wot abaht it?

Unless ethical shopping becomes embedded in legislation many will continue to buy at the lowest price. Thrift is supposed to be a virtue.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:37 AM

Everyone else knew what you were saying, DMcG. Don't worry about it.

Not only Labour regulations but food standards, as we have already discussed. On the one hand the government seek to assure us standards will be maintained while on the other Rees-Mogg and his cronies make it blatantly obvious that if they can make a quick buck by lowering standards, they will. As I have said before, the sooner we are shut of them, the better.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:31 AM

Some comments on the sacking from Labour MPs.

Wes Streeting, “If only anti-semites were dealt with as swiftly as remainers.”

former Cabinet minister Lord Hain accused Corbyn of a “terrible Stalinist purge”

Mike Gapes, another Labour MP, said that “apparently (in) Corbyn world free speech is allowed for anti-Semites but not for Labour MPs supporting the views of our members and our 2016 Conference Policy on the EU”.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:19 AM

Can I assume, from the above, that DMcG believes that Bangladesh is in India?
If not, the conflation of these two ideas makes no sense.

No, of course I don't think Bangladesh is in India (especially as I have visited both). But if you thought Rees-Mogg was only talking about Indian regulations you have a strange view of committee discussions. His point was surely that he felt the EU standards put us at a disadvantage against our potential competitors and India was merely an illustrative example.   What I think makes no sense is to assume he meant India and only India.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:45 PM

From: DMcG

My daughter is currently involved in some research where this is the first paragraph:

============

In 2013, global news networks reported the collapse of the Rana Plaza garment factory in Bangladesh killing 1,138 garment workers. It resulted in a spontaneous worldwide campaign for changes to the living conditions of workers at the end of the supply chain (Minney, 2016). Little compensation for the garment workers’ families has eventuated from the major Western retailers, i.e. H&M, GAP, Benetton and Walmart. At the same time, the Asia Floor Wage Alliance reports that there are fewnoticeable improvements in factory working conditions, e.g. access to secure fire exists, to drinking water, ventilation and fair wages (Kasperkevic, 2016).

========

It is that kind of thing I think when I hear comments like this:

Jacob Rees-Mogg said regulations that were “good enough for India” could be good enough for the UK – arguing that the UK could go “a very long way” to rolling back high EU standards.

The idea, floated at a hearing of the Treasury Select Committee, was immediately rejected by an economist, who said such a move would likely cause “quite considerable” difficulties.

========

I think people have other rights than the air they breathe. Safe working conditions, for example.

Can I assume, from the above, that DMcG believes that Bangladesh is in India?
If not, the conflation of these two ideas makes no sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 07:37 PM

!"I see the usual rot is setting in!"
Your permanently abusive behaviour - from day one really, has made "the rot" a permanent feature of any thread you participate in and, until you get a grip of yourself it will remain so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:33 PM

Iains I agree with your first sentence completely. I too have little faith in any political party at present.

However one poster, who unfortunately (for you) happens to be on your side of this discussion, takes every opportunity to castigate the Labour party and is unable to see the exact same things happening within the Conservative party, things that are often happening more frequently and/or to a greater dregree.

You should perhapsbe thankful that a majority of the media is somewhat biased towards the conservative party.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:06 PM

Raggytash I have very little confidence in any of the political parties.
We all know how they behave, so I see little point in keeping score of those that are found out. I am far more concerned that the brexiteers of the political class include a number of quislings. I still expect to see Brexit betrayal and I have zero trust in the foreign secretary. The attempts at negotiations for our departure would be seen as pathetic in a 6th form debating society. Should the democratic vote of the referendum be thwarted then UK politics will be in uncharted waters and anything could happen. MPs would lose what little respect remains for them and it would take little provocation to trigger civil disobedience.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:43 PM

Hmmm

Iains, one particular poster, who seems to be hell bent on critisising the Labour party at every available opportunity, utterly fails to see the exact same thing happening within the other political parties.

If this sacking was unusual it may merit comment, as it is anyone who does not follow the party line, irrespective of party, does so knowing their position may be in jeopardy.

Such is the nature of our political system.

I posted earlier would anyone like to list the number of conservative MP" who have been sacked, made to resign or thrown in their cards in recent months.

I am confident that it numbers a good deal more than one.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:09 PM

I see the usual rot is setting in!


The foolish and wicked practice of profane cursing and swearing is a vice so mean and low that every person of sense and character detests and despises it.

George Washington

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:00 PM

"Labour Party Remainers will be discouraged by the sacking of Owen Smith for calling for a second referendum."
After Mayfly's catastrophic reshuffle - what with those she dismissed and those who were forced to leave for groping women and possessing extreme porn, the Tory party must be full of clinically depressed menmbers
All power to Corbyn's elbow - it's about time he got rid of the dross and quislings, especially those who refuse to condemn the 'race card' tactics of blaming immigrants for Britain's problems
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:02 PM

Well I'm a Labour Party member who desperately wants to see brexit ditched but I've become convinced that calling for a second referendum is wrong because it would lead to another divisive result. Maybe Jeremy wants to try to solve problems, not create new ones. So I'm perfectly happy to see Owen go. Just because he has a nice smiley face doesn't mean that he isn't a thorn in the side of party policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:54 PM

Would anyone care to list the number of conservative MP's who have resigned, sacked or been ousted for various reasons in the past few months.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:44 PM

Labour Party Remainers will be discouraged by the sacking of Owen Smith for calling for a second referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:41 PM

This posing
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:42 AM
Includes two links to the world situation - including Britain
Do you write them off as "from the time of the workhouse" or just "Fake News?
Lets see how you go with them
For some of us, politics is real life and not a dilettante exercise in displaying abusive wit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:28 PM

Stop being so fgucking insulting and respond to what's being said
If everybody can conduct themselves in an adult fashion why can't you?
Every tinme you behave as you do youi underline the fact that you have no reasonable answer
Teribus did the same beu he was better at it
I have made points that you need to answer (without the bluff or bullshit)
I have no "political points" to score
I draw my opinions out of my life experiences - mainly from growing up from one ofg the "sink estates" you so smugly sneer at as being part of the "socialist dream"
When my sister died unnecessarily last year because of inadequate medical attention she did so because of the shortcomings of a Capitalist society not a socialist one
Now rig off with your pathetic attempts to take people down and answer py points - you arrogant twat
im Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:01 PM

Jim your views dste from the time of the workhouse. Try to update your
your skill set, stop creating fairy tales in order to make a point, and try to have a rational discussion. A no brainer for most but an insurmountable challenge for you. The study of a very basic book on economic theory would pay dividends also. It might curb some of your more "outrageous" statements.
Even in late victorian times if you could not support yourself it was off to the workhouse with you.
Otto von Bismarck's created the first old age pension for 70 year olds, it was not until 1908 70 year olds in the UK received a means tested pension. The safety net has constantly expanded since - jack shit to do with capitalism, more to do with basic decency in a caring society.
Why do you insist on pathetic attempts at political point scoring?
Society madesire to do many things but the pot is not bottmless, hence sometimes harsh decisions need to be made. Only in your head exist the utopia you insist on banging on about.on
"How can you possibly describe expecting to work for a living be described as a free "lunch" How on earth do you come by that interpretation? Comprehension cannot be your strong point now can it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 12:48 PM

I think there is little value of having a vote if you have no say in what you are voting for
The idea for voting for "freedom" or for "the good of your country is an utter nonsense if it doesn't include basic rights, like a roof over your head or a liveable wage
It is little wonder that so many people choose not to vte in Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 12:37 PM

My daughter is currently involved in some research where this is the first paragraph:



============

In 2013, global news networks reported the collapse of the Rana Plaza garment factory in Bangladesh killing 1,138 garment workers. It resulted in a spontaneous worldwide campaign for changes to the living conditions of workers at the end of the supply chain (Minney, 2016). Little compensation for the garment workers’ families has eventuated from the major Western retailers, i.e. H&M, GAP, Benetton and Walmart. At the same time, the Asia Floor Wage Alliance reports that there are fewnoticeable improvements in factory working conditions, e.g. access to secure fire exists, to drinking water, ventilation and fair wages (Kasperkevic, 2016).

========

It is that kind of thing I think when I hear comments like this:

Jacob Rees-Mogg said regulations that were “good enough for India” could be good enough for the UK – arguing that the UK could go “a very long way” to rolling back high EU standards.

The idea, floated at a hearing of the Treasury Select Committee, was immediately rejected by an economist, who said such a move would likely cause “quite considerable” difficulties.


========

I think people have other rights than the air they breathe. Safe working conditions, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:42 AM

How can you possibly describe expecting to work for a living be described as a free "lunch"
Anybody can pull out examples of poor conditions from any society - totally meaningless - how about one from INDUSTRIAL CAPITALISM AT ITS MOST UNCONTROLLED
Totally meaning less
How many of these people are liviing in a a SOCIALIST DREAM ?
Starvation and deprivation is an asepect of any society that ignores the basic human rights of its people - which is exactly what you are suggesting - pretty well in line with your proposal that the survivors of Grenfell Tower should be left to fend for themselves rather than breach the rights of property ownership.
This society, with the few fought for rights that have survived a capitalist society is in a fucked-up mess as it is without your Brave New World
Even the dream of Capitalism was that it would benefit all in the long run
If I were a cynic, I would hope your dreams came true as any society who took i on would burn in flames
You really are a fanatic, aren't you?
GLOBAL DIVISION of WEALTH
AND IN BRITAIN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:42 AM

How can you possibly describe expecting to work for a living be described as a free "lunch"
Anybody can pull out examples of poor conditions from any society - totally meaningless - how about one from INDUSTRIAL CAPITALISM AT ITS MOST UNCONTROLLED
Totally meaning less
How many of these people are liviing in a a SOCIALIST DREAM ?
Starvation and deprivation is an asepect of any society that ignores the basic human rights of its people - which is exactly what you are suggesting - pretty well in line with your proposal that the survivors of Grenfell Tower should be left to fend for themselves rather than breach the rights of property ownership.
This society, with the few fought for rights that have survived a capitalist society is in a fucked-up mess as it is without your Brave New World
Even the dream of Capitalism was that it would benefit all in the long run
If I were a cynic, I would hope your dreams came true as any society who took i on would burn in flames
You really are a fanatic, aren't you?
GLOBAL DIVISION of WEALTH
AND IN BRITAIN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:38 AM

Try it for yourself. I know numerous people brought up on Bransholme. Most are well balanced hard working people who have gained a measure of success, a night coun manager, a publican, a master carpenter, a Trade Union Offical, an actor/professional musician and numerous people in the Educational field.

Sure there are some who haven't done well but that happens in any group of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:15 AM

Jim everything has its price. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and no socialist has ever found a magic money tree. Those in society in work support those that do not. State pensions are funded through taxation, as is the health service, the sick, the unemployed, unmarried mothers and the bone idle. If the tax grab from those in work is insufficient to fund all these dependencies there will be an answering.
The attached is certainly not how we want it to end up-yet are we encouraging a dependency among a minority?

https://www.ilivehere.co.uk/bransholme-hull.html

A study in a socialist dream transmogrified into a nightmare sink estate.