BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 03:24 AM

There is the official narrative, and there is the real narrative.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4994802/Germany-wants-comprehensive-free-trade-deal-UK.html

I cannot think why clot corbyn is going to Brussels for talks.
Capitulation maybe? The man is a saboteur!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 03:55 AM

It must be true because it is in the Daily Mail?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:11 AM

Dave,
Will you tell us what UK negotiators have done wrong

They have not done anything wrong by virtue of the fact that they have done nothing full stop. Who are these politicians that undermine their positions anyway? It cannot be Labour ones as they are not in power

It takes two to negotiate Dave.
Presumably you do know that it is EU side refusing to discuss trade or citizens' rights, not us.

Politicians from all parties who suggest we will accept anything rather than walk, or that we are not serious about leaving, undermine our negotiating position.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM

Rag,
Professsor, do you actually know anything about Economics

Can you actually identify something I have got wrong Rag?
No.
You have actually displayed your complete ignorance about tariffs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:23 AM

Dave,
It must be true because it is in the Daily Mail?

The Guardian article Rag put up yesterday was lacking in truth.

The Mail leaked document story also now appears in many papers including the Independent and International Business Times, so it probably is true.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-talks-eu-leaders-dinner-theresa-may-uk-rebuff-setback-citizens-a8007746.html
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-leaked-documents-reveal-eu-will-begin-trade-talks-britain-december-1643030

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:33 AM

It takes two to negotiate Dave.

It does. So how does that detract from my comment that the negotiators had not done anything?

The Mail leaked document story also now appears in many papers including the Independent and International Business Times

It must be true because it is in more than one newspaper?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:33 AM

I haven't yet loomed at the others, or even the detail of the IB link you provided but I was immediately struck bt the difference betwwen the heading and subheading of the article:

PBrexit leaked documents reveal EU will begin trade talks with Britain in December

Trade talks could begin in December if EU leaders agree.


"Will" becomes "could?" And conditional? Bit of a turn before we even reach the article itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:54 AM

D the G. Are you also in the unfortunate postion on believing nought unless first perused in the guardian?
Why do you still confuse the message with the messenger?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:17 AM

I cannot even begin to enlighten you about economics, one because you wouldn't take heed and two because I cannot be arsed. You obviously have read or perhaps understood the link I provide about tariffs. Continue to live in ignorance if you choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:38 AM

Interesting read from an EU perspective in a Guardian piece by Jens Geier, a German MEP. The bolds are mine.

A British departure without an agreement would certainly be painful for the rest of the bloc. But it wouldn't be fatal. A single market containing 27 member states and with trade agreements around the world can handle the departure of one large country. Prosecco and BMWs are, after all, big sellers worldwide. But with neither a withdrawal agreement nor a transitional period, there would not be so much as a feather to soften the British economy's hard landing. Brexit can't change the simple fact that a bloc of 450 million citizens is greater than one of 65 million. And with less than 18 months left, the UK is nowhere near prepared for a doomsday scenario, given the thousands of extra customs officials, regulators and additional systems that will be needed in the event of no deal.

If there is any truth in May's mantra, then it is the other way around: the EU's interests may be better served by a no-deal divorce than by an agreement that puts its foundations at risk if Britain gets an a la carte Brexit. And that's not a bluff. In the European parliament we have made clear that we won't approve any advance in the negotiations towards a future EU-UK relationship until the foundations for this bridge are laid: solutions over citizens' rights and the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and the settlement of the UK's financial obligations. Without an agreement, a transitional period will not be granted. This is not meant as punishment for a departing country. It is about settling the accounts. It's the interests of EU citizens and the preservation and prosperity of the union that determine our approach to the negotiations...

...May and her cabinet must finally put the national interest ahead of managing the Conservative party's internal conflict, and agree where they are heading. The European commission is your negotiating counterpart, not a counsellor to listen to you wrestle with doubts and divisions. How can we make sustainable progress when nobody knows if the prime minister is able to deliver, or whether her statements will be undermined by members of her cabinet? The British leadership is lacking in credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:42 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 12:26 PM
I'm far too kind to dwell on that egregious example of semi-literate writing in your post, Nigel.

Why, thank you. You do not even state what the 'egregious' example is, but I will take it as a compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:48 AM

Sounds like a perfect summation to me.

But remember, there is an immensely powerful cadre of immensely wealthy people who are immensely influential on both the policies of the Conservative Party, and on the easily-influenced part of the UK population. And it's this cadre that is driving the steady progress to a Hard BrexShit. Not because it's good for the country and its population, but because it's good for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:55 AM

The real beauty of leaving the EU is that is good for everyone.
When the remainers stop remoaning we will have a unity which we have not seen for decades. A new start, a new society, new rules and hopefully new politics.

Party politics have been the ruin of the UK and most of the developed world.....time to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:00 AM

That article was in both today's and yesterday's Guardian, oddly, so apologies to Raggytash who linked to it yesterday. I did look - honest!

Have a look at your post again, Nigel, and be sure not to misread it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:15 AM

The EU needs to ignore the blustering of incompetent little shits like Davis and May and guarantee the 100% of the rights and benefits of EU membership to every UK citizen who wants it on the grounds that we are all EU citizen, and they must not be allowed to discriminate against us.

The EU must gaurantee that the UK will not treat UK citizen who ar ein relationship, or will be in relationships in the future with people from other EU states as second class citizen but will guaantee unhindered freedom of movement in both directions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:17 AM

"A new start, a new society, new rules and hopefully new politics"

And pots of Jasper and spittoons of Jade, everyone will be a millionaire, the sun will shine all year long and the beer will be free .....................

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:21 AM

Yeah, like that permanent sign behind the bar in the Bullers Arms, "Free beer tomorrow."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:28 AM

Q1. D the G. Are you also in the unfortunate postion on believing nought unless first perused in the guardian?

A1. Never have. The media is all biased. Some are worse than others. Any reference I make to any media is usually a direct contradiction to a view expounded elsewhere. Just shows that the same events can be reported in multiple and often opposite ways.

Q2. Why do you still confuse the message with the messenger?

A2. Never have. But if the messenger consistently contorts the truth they should be challenged about it. See A1, above.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 07:21 AM

And under these new rukes - what makes you think you have the right to dictate to people who is and who is no longer entitled to live togather in a pre-exisiting relationships. If the government split up UK couples then you would be the first to start whining.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM

Dave,
So how does that detract from my comment that the negotiators had not done anything?
I took it to be a criticism of one side, in support of Steve.
Good to know you were not supporting his case.

It must be true because it is in more than one newspaper?
It is much more likely to be, yes.
The Independent has a reputation for honest and reliable reporting.

Rag.
You obviously have read or perhaps understood the link I provide about tariffs.

Yes both thanks. It was only a wiki page on tariffs. It did not contradict anything I have said. Can you find anything that does? No.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:39 PM

I dunno if I am supporting anything or not, Keith. I am sure Steve needs no help from me. All I am saying is that the so called negotiators are not negotiating just as the so called government is not governing. A right shower of shits conducting a shambles of a show. How's that for alliteration!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:53 PM

Well I was going to ask you to lend me a tenner, Dave...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 06:14 PM

Well, I was merely suggesting that you worked to your strengths. You are likely a damn good roofer. Who knows. But you are not a damn good member of this forum. You exhibit homophobia and xenophobia routinely and demonstrate that, basically, you understand nothing about anything. That's a weakness, so do us a favour and stick to what you're good at. Up that ladder, my man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 03:25 AM

Greg!!!   where have you been? Donuel has been trying to fill in for you......but its not the same :0)....Welcome back.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 03:31 AM

The Public mood seems to be hardening in relation to our exit from the EU, the Question Time audience heard out the Myth Spinners in stony silence while those who proposed walking away were cheered.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 03:37 AM

They are all mad as hatters!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4724330/jeremy-corbyn-heralded-as-the-uks-new-prime-minister-by-leftie-eu-leaders/
Perhaps we should renovate a cellar in the tower for the treacherous twerp's return.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 03:40 AM

At present there are 28 EU member states of which only 9 of them are net contributors. The UK is the second largest contributor after Germany. Of course the EU does not want us to leave, we pay in far too much for what we in return get out of it.

At present we buy more from the EU than the EU buys from us. Of course the EU does not want us to leave, we are one of their best customers.

We leave with "No deal" and we trade with the rest of the world. This releases us from the current tariffs that the EU applies to goods coming from outside the EU. We are free to negotiate our own deals in order to purchase elsewhere what we used to buy from the EU - who are the EU member states going to sell the produce and goods that the UK used to buy to? We leave with "No Deal" and we wave goodbye to about 26 billion (UK's share of what the EU hold but have not yet spent) but we save at least 11 billion a year (A figure that had we remained in the EU would have increased year on year) and we are not saddled with some bill where the figure has just been plucked from thin air without justification or substantiation. Of course the EU does not want us to leave, what a dangerous precedent we would set for their remaining members.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 04:41 AM

Reportedly Mrs May has now offered ?40 billion. When it comes to figures plucked out of the air, the UK seems as prone to it as the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM

"When it comes to figures plucked out of the air, the UK seems as prone to it as the EU."

Why not DMcG? It is the game that they started. So going by what is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander, no-one on the EU side of the fence can possibly object. What it might prompt them to do is have a stab at justifying their 100 billion.

Meanwhile as they witter on about the bill the clock ticks down and they are faced with getting nothing. We on the other hand by today's prices are automatically 11 billion better off every year after 29th March 2019. The EU and Michel Bernard Barnier can threaten all they like, when we leave, and if we leave without a deal, it will be the EU that will be decidedly the worse off - without our yearly ever increasing level of contribution and without our business (We buy more from them than they buy from us remember - we can always buy from elsewhere - who do they sell their new surplus to?).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:24 AM


"When it comes to figures plucked out of the air, the UK seems as prone to it as the EU."

Why not DMcG? It is the game that they started. So going by what is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander, no-one on the EU side of the fence can possibly object.?

Oh, I don't see many in the EU objecting since it sets a new floor on what they can get out of us. On the other hand i can see a lot of Brexiteers objecting.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:45 AM

If you think they are playing a game to see how much "they can get out of us" "D", why are you not joining us in supporting Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:48 AM

I should say btw that while 40b came up in a link as a figure raised during a private discussion I have not seen any other reference to it so it is quite possibly an unfounded rumour.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:55 AM

"No deal" is looking better all the time.
And the sooner the better. Let's get on with trading with the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:56 AM


If you think they are playing a game to see how much "they can get out of us" "D", why are you not joining us in supporting Brexit?

Because I was reflecting Teribus' phraseology. It is a 'game' in the game-theorical sense that all negotiations are. In any negotiation you are working for the best deal as you see it, and so are they. For a really good example of political game play, I highly recommend "The Lion in Winter" and the discussion bwtween Henry and French King in particular.

But recognising that aspect of the negotitions is a completely different thing to supporting a hard Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 05:56 AM

Even worse then DMcG. You criticise and condemn our Prime Minister based on an unconfirmed and unsubstantiated rumour of what MIGHT have been said unofficially in a private conversation? Your post of 20 Oct 17 - 04:41 AM is a total misrepresentation worthy of Shaw or Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 06:07 AM

Well most of us don't recognise a "hard" or "soft" Brexit "D". We are realists who see it in terms of "in the EU" or "out".

Nothing else is on the table.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 06:11 AM

You will note that my 4:41 post began with the word "Reportedly". That was to highlight it was based on a report. I do not yet know if it will be reported anywhere else; it may or may not be. However no as subsequent reports have yet appeared to my knowledge it seemed the most responsible thing to alert people that. I could very easily have just left it and hoped people would not realise. After all you seemed to believe if May has said that it is all fine, so now saying it is slanderous seems an interesting response.

In my book, if I say something that I begin to suspect may turn out to be unfounded, I consider it best to say so, and will continue to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 07:09 AM

You are wriggling DMcG.

DMcG - 20 Oct 17 - 04:41 AM

"Reportedly Mrs May has now offered ?40 billion."

"Reportedly" as used by you above, means that it has been reported but YOU do not necessarily believe that report - All well and good. But then you go on to state - "When it comes to figures plucked out of the air, the UK seems as prone to it as the EU." - which sort of infers that YOU DO BELIEVE the report. Bit of a contradiction there DMcG - so which one is it? It is still a misrepresentation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 07:15 AM

Not wriggling at all, T, but it I don't get into personal arguments so I would be continuing this little diversion any further.

For what it is worth, here are two tweets from Laura Kuenssberg on Oct 20 2017:

10:53am: May does not deny that she has told other leaders privately that she'd be willing to pay many billons more than the initial 20 billion


10:54 But she certainly doesn't confirm it either! Rests on the "we'll go through line by line" answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 07:22 AM

Damn! "Won't be"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 07:39 AM

For what it is worth, here are two tweets from Laura Kuenssberg on Oct 20 2017:
10:53am: May does not deny that she has told other leaders privately that she'd be willing to pay many billons more than the initial 20 billion
10:54 But she certainly doesn't confirm it either! Rests on the "we'll go through line by line" answer.

Firstly, "many billions more than 20 billion" is a very nebulous idea (25bn?). And I would possibly agree with the UK offering more, if the amount was being justified by the EU, or if I could see that it was gaining us some benefit we wouldn't otherwise have received.
Secondly, Laura Kuenssberg hardly appears to be objective when appearing on television about Brexit. This may be despite being employed by BBC, or because of.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:14 AM

Ah yes, Nigel. As soon as the going gets tough, have a bash at the good old Beeb. I'm sure that Barnier and Juncker hang on Laura K's every word. Perhaps you would like her replaced by a Tory sycophant. Pity you can't have Jezza Paxo back. All those years at the helm, then we find out that he was a Tory all along. Tsk. Or you could try Andrew Neil, who worked for the Conservatives in his youth and was once the chairman of the Federation of Conservative students, not to speak of his dalliances with those raving Marxists, Murdoch and the Barclay brothers - or how about Nick Robinson, once chairman of the Young Conservatives, or even his former editor Robbie Gibb who used to work for Francis Maude as his chief of staff. Or how about that nice Tory Chris Patten, former chairman of the BBC trust. Or the charming Kamal Ahmed, filched from his post as executive business editor of those rabid leftie papers the Daily and Sunday Telegraph. Flippin' reds under the beds everywhere at the Beeb, eh!

And we are getting some very simplistic talk from the likes of Teribus. We are not suddenly going to stop selling to and buying from the EU when we leave. After 2019 we will still be driving around in beamers and quaffing Prosecco and eating lots of EU-produced food. Of course, it'll all cost more, and we buy more than we sell. Not only that, with the pound at rock bottom (any bets on a pound buying just 80 cents and one bare US dollar by 2020?), well, I reckon that takes care of your 11 billion a year. Cor, those WTO trade deals had better be good! Anyway, what were you thinking you were going to be doing with it? Give it to the NHS by any chance? Ha bloody ha. Heard it before, I'm afraid.

Then there's the biggest part of our economy, the service sector. Runs like a fairly well-oiled machine right now. But once the barricades go up after brexit, just watch the bureaucratic nightmare unfold. Note how HM Govt is pretty quiet about that. The truth will out, as ever, sooner or later.

So, we won't be leaving, will we?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:17 AM

Dave,
All I am saying is that the so called negotiators are not negotiating

They are not negotiating on trade or citizens' rights because EU leadership forbids it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM

We are not suddenly going to stop selling to and buying from the EU when we leave. After 2019 we will still be driving around in beamers and quaffing Prosecco and eating lots of EU-produced food.

We will be able to buy cheaper food on the world market, and if Beamers and prosecco cost too much we can switch to New World wine and Japanese cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:23 AM

So you agree that they are not negotiating then? Thanks Keith.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:33 AM

I have referred to that block on negotiation before Dave.
It is not the negotiators fault that they are not allowed to negotiate those issues, so why do you appear to be blaming them for it?

What exactly is the point you are trying to make here?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:38 AM

I thought that was quite obvious, Keith. Regardless of the whys and wherefores, the negotiators are not negotiating. That is what I said. No more no less. You have agreed. No point in continuing really is there as I am not going to jump through any Keithyhoops to keep you entertained.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:45 AM

Your point is not at all obvious Dave.
Are you criticising the negotiators or not?
If not, why did you post that "they have done nothing full stop?"
What was your point?

Should they be free to discuss trade and citizens rights?
I think they should. Are you with me on that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:50 AM

Read my last sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 10:03 AM

It takes two to negotiate. Negotiation first of all requires agreeing on the framework. The EU team do not agree that we should be talking about the favourable trade deal the UK wants before the substance of the settlement bill is agreed. If you don't think that's fair, tell us why not. We ARE going to pay money. If we don't, three things will happen. We will get a lousy deal. There will be bad blood with our main trading partner (no-one is queuing up to replace them fast enough to rescue our failing economy once we're out). And we will be chased for payment, possibly through legal process, for years. We will be paying money. The more hubris our clownish negotiators show over this now, the more dirt they'll have to eat later. We are the one causing the trouble. One out of 28. We are not the ones who get to set the negotiating parameters. Unless you're a Blimpish little Englander, that seems to be the way it should be.