BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:50 AM

But I also think the UK will not do as well when assisted by membership of the EU.
It looks as if you're agreeing with me more than you intended. I think you possibly meant to say "as well as when".

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 07:57 AM

I admit to getting into a bit of mess linguistically there by trying to match the sentence structure the original too closely!

Still, I hope the intention was clear. By being in the EU we get benefits. We got those in exchange for giving up some flexibility. When we leave, we regain that flexibility, but we also lose the benefits. The question is, which is greater? So it is reasonable to ask those to be spelt out in a similar way to a business plan that a bank would find appropriate. I don't think I would have much success going to a bank and asking for a business loan but refusing to indicate how I might fund the repayments because it's all in the future...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 08:34 AM

By being in the EU we get benefits. We got those in exchange for giving up some flexibility.
By giving up some flexibility, control of our fishing grounds, a large chunk of money . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:00 AM

Nigel, I live in a town that used to have a fishing fleet, the owners of the trawlers, without exception, have moved to fish out of Peterhead and Banff. The only boats in the town now catch Lobsters and Crabs or take fishing parties out. An occasional boat comes up from Devon to fish for Scallops.

I have just read the attached article for the Guardian which clearly states that "the distribution of national quotas is the responsibility of national government, not the EU."

Leaving the EU will not necessarily make the livelihoods on these fishermen/women any more secure.

Once you read past the journalists obvious dislike of Farage it does make interesting reading.

Fishing

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:14 AM

I have just read the attached article for the Guardian which clearly states that "the distribution of national quotas is the responsibility of national government, not the EU."
'Smoke and mirrors': The distribution of the quotas may be for the nation (UK) but the setting of the quotas is done by the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:18 AM

Why would UK want to start imposing quotas discriminating individual ports?
All our fisherfolk would benefit by removing competition depleting stocks in our waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:24 AM

Nigel, when our fishing grounds are limited by not being part of the EU regulations we will only be able, legally, to fish within our own fishing grounds.

From reading about this subject I found that most British trawlers fish outside those grounds at present, in grounds which belong to other nations.

We MAY be able to buy quotas from them ........ at a price.

Like you said smoke and mirrors and much disinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:30 AM

The John Lichfield article mentioned in the article Raggytash linked to is also worth a read. It identifies some of the misrepresentations and misunderstandings that are common when people who don't know a sector in any detail (like me with fishing!) start making general comments about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 10:27 AM

So these fishing rights, will these be paid by a tax levied only on Tory voters - why should the rest of the country pay for their stupidity?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 10:31 AM

Just to give a balanced view, here's another side of the debate: Fishing areas

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 10:33 AM

So these fishing rights, will these be paid by a tax levied only on Tory voters - why should the rest of the country pay for their stupidity?
Why on Tory voters? Do you believe that only Tories voted for Brexit?
There's plenty of 'stupidity' in the Labour party (as well)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 10:54 AM

You are entitled to your opinions, but so are others.

Yes, I am, and I haven't tried to stop you or anyone else having yours.

just posting lines of crude drivel does nothing to forward the argument.

And your pomposity does nothing to forward it either.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 10:59 AM

And what I posted is fact, not drivel. The BrexShitters voted for nothing more than a hope - no facts, no studies, no detail, just hope based on unjustifiable promises made by self-serving liars on behalf of the immensely-rich, tiny minority who do actually stand to gain from the impending disaster of BrexShit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:06 AM

Nigel, when our fishing grounds are limited by not being part of the EU regulations we will only be able, legally, to fish within our own fishing grounds.

From reading about this subject I found that most British trawlers fish outside those grounds at present, in grounds which belong to other nations.

We MAY be able to buy quotas from them ........ at a price.

Like you said smoke and mirrors and much disinformation.

"We will only be able, legally, to fish within our own fishing grounds"
But: "We may be able to buy quotas for other grounds"
Which is it?
What about the 'high seas' which are not the fishing zones of any country?
Our own fishing grounds will no longer be open to be fished by other countries (unless by agreement with UK), so this increases our available fish stocks for our own fishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:07 AM

"Most of the press is pro-Brexit."

Of course it is - it's owned by some of the people who stand to gain the most from it, the cabal of immensely-rich people who are desperate to avoid becoming subject to the new Tax Evasion/Avoidance regulations being brought in by the EU in 2019.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:09 AM

Now that last sentence is pure drivel. We know who you are taking lessons from!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:11 AM

"For fisheries this (Brexit) means that the UK will be able to develop new, national fisheries policies for the 200 nautical miles of waters that extend from the UK and are within its exclusive economic competence (EEZ)."

These rights are free. No payment to anyone.
We can also agree mutual fishing rights with other nations.
Again, no cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:16 AM

From Nigel's link;

This is therefore one of one of the few areas in the Brexit negotiations where the UK will genuinely has a strong hand.

Well, that's not an admission you hear every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:32 AM

Yes Nigel buy, we purchase from people with quotas to fish, the rights to those quotas. By the same token foreign vessels could purchase quotas from Britsh vessels to fish British waters.

I can guarantee you one thing, the trawler owners will take whichever option is more benefical to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:35 AM

Yes Nigel we could fish "the high seas" However there are issues which affect that, time, distance and danger immediately come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:36 AM

Oh ........ and cost !

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:37 AM

"Now that last sentence is pure drivel. We know who you are taking lessons from!

Care to back that nonsense up with evidence, Teribus?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:38 AM

Yes Nigel buy, we purchase from people with quotas to fish, the rights to those quotas. By the same token foreign vessels could purchase quotas from British vessels to fish British waters.

I can guarantee you one thing, the trawler owners will take whichever option is more beneficial to them.

I agree. So if we can buy fishing quotas to fish in the waters of other states (if we need to with our expanded waters) is this legal?
If so, it makes a nonsense of your statement: when our fishing grounds are limited by not being part of the EU regulations we will only be able, legally, to fish within our own fishing grounds

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:42 AM

OK Nigel I should have posted without buying quotas from foreign vessels which have them. That will no doubt add to the cost of fish on our plates. Somehow I have a feeling that that truth will be lost on Brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:44 AM

Yes Nigel we could fish "the high seas" However there are issues which affect that, time, distance and danger immediately come to mind.
So yet another correction to your claim: when our fishing grounds are limited by not being part of the EU regulations we will only be able, legally, to fish within our own fishing grounds

I hardly need to contradict you, you're doing so yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:57 AM

Perchance you are being deliberately obtuse.

Short of me writing a long and detailed evaluation of the issues surrounding the fishing industry perhaps I could ask you to trouble yourself by finding the information available yourself.

You really don't have to look that hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 12:25 PM

Many posts since I last asked. Nothing to give us a little optimism then? I guess those who are confident that brexit will be of such benefit are astutely ignoring the fact that their optimism seems misplaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 12:45 PM

Fishing on the high seas is, although not totally lawless, is subject to a mish mash of different regulatory organisations. There is a move for the UN to start a Conservation Treaty for the High Seas. This would be
a new international effort hoping to stem the tide of illegal and under-regulated fishing and otherwise protect the ocean from a range of threats, to benefit everyone.
To state that the UK can will only be able to legally fish within our own fishing grounds is simply not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:32 PM

I cannot help but detect a reluctance to discuss Brexit.

I do detect an attempt to "nit pick" on wording that in a normal conversation would be reasonable.

I could write a long treatise on the subject on fishing but I doubt if anyone would take the trouble to read it.

The information is out there for all the peruse, should they have the inclination.

The media as we all know (or should know) seeks headlines that are often misleading............

Or should I have typed commercial fishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:05 PM

You are the one that introduced fishing. Why bring it up if you wish to immediately censor the ensuing discussion? Presumably fishing in national waters is a part of the brexit discussion. Commercial fishing on the high seas is not. This is not nitpicking, it is clarifying your original somewhat misleading statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 08:04 PM

Without wishing to broaden the bloody thing out more than it needs, for a very long time I've had a particular view about fishing. To me, there are three overriding aspects. First, there must be international oversight of fishing that has the primary, non-political intention of preserving stocks that must be based on science. Second (do read on...), I think that any nation that is surrounded by ocean has the inalienable right to claim an area around their country as their exclusive fishing ground. I mean, if you have oil, gas, coal, timber or any other resource that is the upshot of your geography, well it's yours and yours alone, and I don't see why fishing should be any different. Every country is lucky in the resources it has in many different ways. I don't expect Madeira to be obliged to share its lucky avocados or the Dominican Republic to share its lucky bananas, so why should the UK or Iceland have to share its lucky fish resource? So I think that the UK, and every other maritime nation, should be able to draw a line half-way between it and the next-door nations and say, this is my fishing ground and you don't fish here unless you're OK with our navy sinking your boats, even if you're Russia or Japan. Of course, there are tiny islands in vast oceans that could claim millions of square miles on that basis and that would need to be sensibly negotiated, and there's the matter of breeding grounds that would complicate simplistic territorial claims, which is my third point. Of all policies that need world-wide wisdom in order for it to to operate in the interests of every nation, it's fishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:25 AM

Just for the record Iains I did not introduce fishing into the discussion that was Nigel:


"Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 08:34 AM

By being in the EU we get benefits. We got those in exchange for giving up some flexibility.
By giving up some flexibility, control of our fishing grounds, a large chunk of money . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:13 AM

The latest wheeze from breixteers is to suggest a museum of soverignity "to collate an academic trove of artefacts, papers and books chronicling not just Brexit, but also the decades of often fringe Eurosceptic activism that preceded it"

Marvellous eh!



Brexit Museum

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:15 AM

Spelling obviously not checked before posting ...... Oops

Sovereignty!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:59 PM

EU to insist on UK maintaining environmental standards (or at least attempt to)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:11 PM

Maybe they should sort out existing members unable to maintain environmental regulations before they try to regulate soon to be exmembers.

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/germany-leading-breaker-eu-rules-883837

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 01:51 AM

I am sure you understand why those two things are not comparable, Iains. But to spell it out, it is about what is controllable by law, not how effectively it is controlled.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 03:03 AM

Bit of a mixed report here by the CBI.

One snippet reads

The CBI study, compiled over a six-month period, says Brexit presents opportunities for rule changes in sectors such as agriculture, shipping and tourism that could benefit the British economy and consumers.

However, the report adds that these opportunities for divergence are vastly outweighed by the costs of deviating from rules necessary to ensure smooth access to the EU, the UK's largest trading partner.

However, Richard Tice, co-chair of Leave Means Leave, said: "This report from the CBI protects the vested interests of global multi-nationals at the expense of the approximately 90% of the UK economy that does not export to the EU.

Does he not understand "the EU, the UK's largest trading partner." or is he just looking after the interests of the part of the economy that does not export?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 03:51 AM

Yet another adverse effect of Brexit has been reported today in the number of high street retailers which have closed.

"A net 1,700 chain shops closed their doors in 2017, according to analysis of the UK’s top 500 towns compiled by the Local Data Company (LDC) for PricewaterhouseCoopers. An average of 11 stores a day opened, while 16 a day closed. The data does not include independent shops.

Fashion and footwear stores were the hardest hit in 2017, according to LDC, as shoppers’ freedom to spend on non-essentials was diminished by rising food price inflation, partly fuelled by the fall in the value of the pound after the vote for Brexit in 2016."

Not the only effect but an effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 03:56 AM

However, Richard Tice, co-chair of Leave Means Leave, said: "This report from the CBI protects the vested interests of global multi-nationals at the expense of the approximately 90% of the UK economy that does not export to the EU.

Does he not understand "the EU, the UK's largest trading partner." or is he just looking after the interests of the part of the economy that does not export?
I imagine he fully understands the term. "Largest trading partner" is the country (or bloc) with which we do the most trade. This includes both buying & selling. With the EU we buy more from them than we sell to them. As such it is in the interests of the EU not to hinder international trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:21 AM

"A net 1,700 chain shops closed their doors in 2017, according to analysis of the UK’s top 500 towns compiled by the Local Data Company (LDC) for PricewaterhouseCoopers. An average of 11 stores a day opened, while 16 a day closed. The data does not include independent shops.

Fashion and footwear stores were the hardest hit in 2017, according to LDC, as shoppers’ freedom to spend on non-essentials was diminished by rising food price inflation, partly fuelled by the fall in the value of the pound after the vote for Brexit in 2016."

Of course to also introduce the growth of on line shopping and the meteoric rise of outlets such as Amazon have zero impact on high street closures. Also the argument the pound fell as a result of brexit or as a result of a long anticipated correction of the market also impacts the above discussion. Some would argue market correction was the driver. If this was the case the argument presented further fails.

Presenting the information quoted, while omitting facts of equal relevance, is merely a device to mislead the unwary.

Shame on you!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:24 AM

Sorry Nigel, I do not understand your point. The EU is the UK's biggest trading partner yet Richard Tice says it is at the expense of those who do not export. Seems to be a bit of obfuscation going on here. On the one hand talking about the biggest trading partner and on the other, just exports to the EU. This type of molding the statistics to fit an argument does not help anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:25 AM

Iains, which bit of "Not the only effect but an effect" did you not comprehend?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:39 AM

Dave:
Richard Tice was just responding to the CBI's claim. It was them who seemed to believe that "largest trading partner" was to do with sales alone: However, the report adds that these opportunities for divergence are vastly outweighed by the costs of deviating from rules necessary to ensure smooth access to the EU, the UK's largest trading partner.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:17 AM

Rag,
Yet another adverse effect of Brexit has been reported today in the number of high street retailers which have closed.

Who told you it was because of Brexit Rag?
It could be some other factor. Some people now buy things on line instead of going to the shops. Heard of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:24 AM

Yes, I know that Nigel. CBI were talking about exports/sales, Richard Tice was talking about the part of the economy that does not export. Apples and Oranges. Why try to compare the two?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:21 AM

Iains, which bit of "Not the only effect but an effect" did you not comprehend?
I think he was pointing out that Brexit was not the sole cause, of the effect.
Saying "Not the only effect but an effect" still suggests that all the shop closures were caused by Brexit, and that Brexit has caused other effects as well. It does not clarify that Brexit was not thye sole cause of the closures.

"Cause and effect" are often linked, but are not interchangeable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:40 AM

I think we have a different language syndrome, Nigel. I fully understand that Raggy meant that brexit was a partial cause of shop closures. I cannot see how anyone can read it any other way but I will put that down to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:46 AM

The article makes it quite clear, well it does to you and I Dave, that the fall of the pound after Brexit was ONE of the factors involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:56 AM

4400! :-)