BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 01:37 PM

Perhaps I am being naïve, but it seems a fairly straightforward question to me. Assuming Brexit goes ahead, I am at the Hammond end of wanting the differences to be about "two completely interconnected and aligned economies with high levels of trade between them, and selectively moving them, hopefully very modestly, apart". Keith has made plain he is at the Rees-Mogg end which regards this as betrayal. I have no qualms about saying that is my view, and I believe neither has Keith for his.

So I am not asking, Iains (and others), what the Conservative view is. I am asking what your personal opinion is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 12:01 PM

I think you will find DMcG that evading the issue is the one consistency amongst the Pro Brexit posters.

I have linked to numerous articles that have not illicted a single response.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:58 AM

Typos again! Obviously I meant Tories not Rories (amongst other mistakes.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:56 AM

Agreed there are differing views in Labour. But until the next election at the earliest that will not effect Post Brexit life (unless there is a substantial rebellion in thw Conservative ranks.)

On the other hand which version of Brexit thw Rories settle on will critically affect Post Brexit. Which is why discussion of Labour in this thread is basically dodging the issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:50 AM

But is your blathering fact, fiction, whimsy or what. You have already said you do not care about the truth. If you cannot tell us what particular mode of thought governs your incessant scribbling then there is no real point in anyone paying any attention to you. In fact if you merely post provocatively with no regard to the truth then you are merely trolling and the moderators should perhaps consider banning you for being nothing but a nuisance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:34 AM

I must have said about ten times now that I'm no longer in favour of a second referendum and given my reasons. Once again, you reveal your scorn for those poor teachers of yours by demonstrating your lack of reading skills. She's called Diane Abbott by the way. Do grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:25 AM

Corbyn's ship has sailed! How sad!

Shaw your leader does not want a second referendum. You are out of touch dear boy!



The big ship sails on the ally ally.....
with musical accompaniment
The big ship sails on the ally.....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 10:54 AM

There are differing views within Labour too.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM

No view on Hammond vs Rees-Mogg's differing idea of Brexit, then?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 08:54 AM

In or out of the EU Labour will trash the economy. I am surprised the abbacus is not made the shadow chancellor, in order to fully crew the ship of fools. The only flexibility of the labour market under such a regime will be exhibited by swimming for safety away from labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:03 AM

The track record of the Tories with the EU has always been to attempt to compromise workers' rights regulations in the interests of big business controlling the "flexible labour market." Trying to sidestep the Working Time Directive was one example. Not enough was made of that in the remain campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM

Latest Brexit scam
Ex Government ministers are now offering their services to use their influence to manipulate Brexit negations to favour individual businesses - at the cost of up to £5,000 a day   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:01 AM

I can't read that Financial Times article becauae it needs a subacriotion to read more than two articles.

If you have Rees mogg as PM, you get the wish to lower environmental standards and workers' rights as well. Do you support that as well, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 03:51 AM

Roll on the premiership of the dreaded Mogg. You know it makes sense!
Reasons below

https://www.ft.com/content/be44ff5a-028e-11e8-9e12-af73e8db3c71

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 08:07 PM

Honestly Greg, they are not worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:57 PM

those who spend their lives directing the intellects of the young.



As opposed to those who spend their lives directing no intellect whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:41 PM

Arrogance, pedantry, and dogmatism...the occupational diseases of those who spend their lives directing the intellects of the young.

Ouch!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:40 PM

I'd be more interested in hearing from the Leavers here where they stand on the Hammond-Mogg spectrum. Keith has been clear he is very much at Rees-Mogg end, but I have no idea where Iains and Nigel stand. Is Hammond's approach a betrayal and "Brexit in name only"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:19 PM

Ducking and diving shaw. I see your last post adds clarity where none existed before. Nothing wrong with my comprehension shaw, it has kept me gainfully employed in the real world for decades. Unlike a self proclaimed "union activist" (troublemaker) such as yourself. You hoped to bluff your way through by not specifying how small and totally insignificant the labour party membership is. Your later mention of the true numbers is a little late in the day. No matter what the percentages say, any percentage of FA is still sweet FA and therefore meaningless. It had as much impact on the brexit vote as as a limp lettuce.

"your teachers didn't manage to teach you anything, certainly about reading and writing English (the writing part is clear from your last post and the reading part is clear from your inability to get the drift of a perfectly simple sentence)."

" Below is thought for the day for a well educated scientist/botanist/union activist/ex teacher: (Think on it - Not a very flattering picture now is it? But it sums you up to a Tee. I notice you keep well clear of trying to correct jimmy the ranter. Are you scared of a broadside? or do you just keep it as a weapon in reserve when the toybox has had everything hurled out and you arguments are a little limp-wristed?

Arrogance, pedantry, and dogmatism...the occupational diseases of those who spend their lives directing the intellects of the young.
Henry Seidel Canby

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 01:50 PM

Davis and Hammond write to business

It doesn't sound as if Rees-Mogg will be happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 12:59 PM

What a bunch of utter garbage. I made no play whatsoever of the contrast between the membership preference and the vote in the country. It's rampagingly obvious that my only point was the disconnect between the party, its membership and Labour voters. Here it is again:   

" I feel very frustrated as a Labour Party member that the party seems so paralysed, in spite of the fact that the overwhelming majority of Labour voters voted remain and nine in ten of us hundreds of thousands of members want to stay in the EU."

That's it, lock, stock and barrel. A simple enough sentence. No point-making about stuff you claim I'm making points about. I'm beginning to realise now what you have against education: your teachers didn't manage to teach you anything, certainly about reading and writing English (the writing part is clear from your last post and the reading part is clear from your inability to get the drift of a perfectly simple sentence).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 12:36 PM

No shaw. Any idiot that takes 88% of a half million sample out of 46million and tries to make some sort political point out of it is clearly away with the faeries.
I also believe I pointed out earlier on this thread that the labour leadership is committed to brexit, because as you said not so long ago discussing real politik "that they would be toast if they ignored their heartland.
Also electoral boundaries for MEPs do not always correspond to Mp's boundaries. Additionally the vote was for in or out irregardless of your political affiliations. Unlike mps there were no whips required, although you may have like to use them to get the idle out of bed on polling day.
Anyway you freely admit that you do not distinguish between fact and fiction, so in reality everything you post is meaningless.
I have no wish to know any details about the labour party thankyou.
The meanderings of Corbyn and the abbacas are sufficient tribulation for a sane person.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 12:11 PM

They are not arguments. They are facts. If I wish to deny that you won "convincingly," or that "the British people have spoken," then the 38% figure is perfectly legitimate grist to my mill, thank you. And you completely missed the point about the nine in ten Labour Party members who voted remain. That had nothing at all to do with the larger electorate but everything to do with the fact that the party is seriously out of sync with the membership in its brexit policy, and, to a lesser extent percentage-wise, with Labour voters. That is rip-roaringly clear from my post and it's also rip-roaringly clear that you are on a childish mission to pick fights. You did it with Raggytash in another thread and now you're doing it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 12:06 PM

In glorious technicolour
and a toon to help the remainers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FscIgtDJFXg

labour constituencies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016#/media/File:United_Kingdo

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 11:54 AM

Why do you constantly bring up only 38% of the electorate voted leave. Again economical with the truth. Of those that voted the majority voted leave. Those disenfranchised because they are still in nappies or could not be bothered to get out of bed are of zero consequence. Adding them to the statistics to endeavour to explain the fact you LOST fools no one. I suggest you do look at the regional breakdown. The traditional labour heartlands voted leave. How to you explain that? or will you simply put your head in the sand and pretend it is not true.
Anyway whether Labour or stalwarts of the monster raving loony party is by the by.
We won and you lost. Live with it!

You also make the ridiculous statement that 88% of labour party membership voted remain. As of June 2017, Labour had 552,000 members.
So in reality you make capital out of 88% of 1/2 million as though it is of significance. A lousy 1/2 million out of 46 million electorate.
What a pathetic argument shaw. I would expect better from a 12year old

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 10:32 AM

65% of Labour voters voted remain. I call that an overwhelming majority, especially in light of the fact that I've heard things like "the British people have spoken" and "the leave side won convincingly" when they actually won the referendum by less than 52-48 and when only 38% of the electorate voted leave. My transparent and straightforward remark clearly related to an overall percentage all Labour voters and I didn't attempt any kind of regional breakdown. In addition, approximately 88% or more, depending on which survey you read, of Labour Party members voted remain. There is absolutely nothing economical with the truth about any of that, and calling it "a total distortion" is patently ridiculous. You need to learn to be civil.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 09:41 AM

" I feel very frustrated as a Labour Party member that the party seems so paralysed, in spite of the fact that the overwhelming majority of Labour voters voted remain and nine in ten of us hundreds of thousands of members want to stay in the EU."

Very very very very very economical with the truth there shaw. In fact a total distortion.
30% of labour voted "on yer bike" to the EU .And to rub salt in the wound the traditional labour heartland voted come away, come away

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-7-graphs-that-explain-how-brexit-won-eu-explained-a7101676.ht

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 07:13 AM

In any second referendum the leavers will have the best slogans, most likely predicated on their trump card, which will be that remainers are trying to overturn democracy, here we go again, keep having referendums until you get the answer you want... In my view that's a load of nonsense which is actually undemocratic in itself, but it will be impossible to make that argument stick in the face of populist sloganising. Brexit can only be stopped by politicians having their heads banged together and made to act in the long-term interests of this country, not the short-term tactical interests of their parties. I believe that the vast majority of MPs know that we are heading for disaster, but they are seriously trammelled by their party machines. I feel very frustrated as a Labour Party member that the party seems so paralysed, in spite of the fact that the overwhelming majority of Labour voters voted remain and nine in ten of us hundreds of thousands of members want to stay in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 07:02 AM

Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot didn't even try to get socialism to work. They were murderous dictators. Show me where in socialist philosophy it says that socialist countries can be run by murderous dictators. Chavez and Castro were both seriously undermined by US foreign policy. They both got a lot of things wrong and I won't make excuses for that. But, as exercises in socialism, Venezuela and Cuba didn't stand a chance, though both those leaders tried against the odds to get some things right.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:36 AM

I'm not commenting on the slight variation Iains, it is as I said "a slight change"

What I am commenting on is that a much higher proportion believe leaving the EU will be damaging to our economy and some of those people will still vote in favour exiting the EU acknowledging it will be damaging, but are still quite happy to do so.

Look at the stats provided in the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:25 AM

Raggytash In the light of polls concerning voting intentions prior to brexit do you really believe that a "slight change in voting preferance" is anything other than random noise given a high ranking by a bullshit detector?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:20 AM

Interesting article in the Guardian this morning relating to a slight change in voting preference should another referendum be held. That in itself is not particularly surprising. What I did find surprising was that a much larger number believe that exiting the EU will be harmful to the Economy. What I don't comprehend is this. If you think it's going to be damaging to the economy why the hell vote for it?


Second Referendum?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:01 AM

When will they ever learn ................When will they ever learn?

A contribution from Grumpy_Northerner

Lenin couldn’t get socialism to work, Stalin couldn’t get socialism to work, Mao couldn’t get socialism to work, Castro couldn’t get socialism to work, Pol Pot couldn’t get socialism to work, Chavez couldn’t get socialism to work ...

But stand back world and rejoice, John McDonnell, a man who was kicked off the GLC thirty years ago for financial incompetence, has cracked it, he knows how to make socialism work.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM

More labour delusion at Davos. How to sort out Venezuela by following the the "winning ways" of corbyn's socialism


https://order-order.com/2018/01/26/mcdonnell-tells-davos-starving-venezuela-failed-not-socialist-enough/

As victor would say:" I don't believe it!" But sadly far too many of a deluded electorate do. Some even have the temerity to post here.

And to stop the bleating yes it is reported by Guido. But I have a cunning antidote.
Here it is on youtube babble babble

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 04:10 AM

Unwarranted doomladen gloom.

Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:27 PM

I think the dream of the Brexiteers of getting 'great trade deals' with the US has been dealt a serious blow by the imposition of a 300% tariff on the aircraft which Delta were to purchase from Bombardier in NI, applied for by Boeing, who don't even build the class of aircraft that Delta ordered from Bombardier.
The Shape of Things to Come.

Stu - PM
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 07:07 AM

Bombardier: May 'bitterly disappointed' as US tariff puts jobs at risk
Here in the UK we're getting a little taste of life after we've left the EU following El Trumpo's decision to slap a 219% tariff on Bombardier, so jeopardising 4,000 jobs in the North of Ireland. More to the point, the government actually played this deal straight down the line, landed it fairly and squarely but still ordinary working people might suffer because of the whim of a fat orange idiot. Without influence as part of the worlds largest trading block, we're just back to being a small island with an over-inflated opinion of itself and at the mercy of the likes of Trump.
This is our world now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:20 PM

Bathos, mate. Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:41 PM

Naaaaah! pathos for corbynistas.

You need a dictionary young man!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:14 PM

Begod, the thread has descended into bathos...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:08 PM

Jacob Rees Mogg .......... known by his own party as the "Honourable Member for the 18th century"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 01:52 PM

"Why, a few hours ago you were in effect calling for him to be PM"

You need to modify your diet dear boy. You are hallucinating!

I think you would be surprised how much Rees Mogg could accomplish, were he to be made Premier. By the same token I think people would be gobsmacked by the level of destruction that would be achieved should the electorate ever be daft enough to let Corbyn loose with the reins of power.


Tis a rum old world. one faction will not elect the leader that will take us to the promised land, while another is hellbent on taking us into the darkside. Luckily the latter were kicked into touch after the last election.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 01:30 PM

"Should you wish to see extreme instability and a crash just put clot corbyn at the helm."

Why, a few hours ago you were in effect calling for him to be PM by suggesting Jacob Cream-Crackers for Tory leader! And the closest thing we've seen to extreme instability was when that mighty Tory Cameron lost the referendum and the pound plunged almost immediately by about 15%. Even Jezza couldn't match that.

I see that the Guardian/ICM poll today showed a considerable majority in favour of a second referendum. A significant number of leave supporters agreed with that. There's a very slim majority in favour of remain now. Not making a big thing of it. Just mentioning it. I have a nasty feeling that a second referendum would solve nothing. Instead of that we need a coalition of all the progressive parties campaigning for a reversal of Brexit in the interests of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 12:50 PM

Beneath contempt, Nigel. In future, try to follow the thread. You are so intent on picking holes in what I say that you appear not to notice anything else. Context, for example. Incidentally, your post yesterday blatantly misrepresented the graph in your link. You seem to want untrue things to be true just to get them to fit your agenda. That was a classic example. Once again you made me the target of that even though what I said was perfectly correct and so you made a complete fool of yourself. And I don't often change the meanings of my remarks claiming that they were whimsy. I've done it once and I was doling out to you the sarcasm you deserved on that occasion. Take a step back, Nigel. The target of your remarks here should be the issues we're discussing, not things picked out of posts with a magnifying glass in order to further your career in pedantry.

What did I say about the graph that was misleading?

Once again your post is so rambling as to be almost indecipherable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 12:41 PM

Beneath contempt, Nigel. In future, try to follow the thread. You are so intent on picking holes in what I say that you appear not to notice anything else. Context, for example. Incidentally, your post yesterday blatantly misrepresented the graph in your link. You seem to want untrue things to be true just to get them to fit your agenda. That was a classic example. Once again you made me the target of that even though what I said was perfectly correct and so you made a complete fool of yourself. And I don't often change the meanings of my remarks claiming that they were whimsy. I've done it once and I was doling out to you the sarcasm you deserved on that occasion. Take a step back, Nigel. The target of your remarks here should be the issues we're discussing, not things picked out of posts with a magnifying glass in order to further your career in pedantry.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM

Silly boy!


https://www.ft.com/content/e06aa3a6-a2c5-11e7-b797-b61809486fe2

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:05 AM

Crass tosh and nonsense Iains, a typical right wing response. Daily Heil headlines at best.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM

" Yeah, right. And your piece is over two years old, by the way. Perhaps you could explain why, in spite of a terrible election result for the Tories, terrible divisions in the ruling party and shocking and ongoing stasis in the brexit negotiations, the pound hasn't wobbled very much at all in the last four or five months."

Simples: The world knows that the economy under the mighty conservatives is in safe hands, despite bickering.

Should you wish to see extreme instability and a crash just put clot corbyn at the helm. Even he knows he is a walking disaster. Why else wargame a massive collapse of the pound should the country ever be daft enough to give him a sniff of power.
Good luck trying to find a pundit that can counter the argument against corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:23 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:50 AM

Er, who precisely are these "we," Nigel?
"We" are those who have been reading your rants for a while, and have already realised that you have only a vague acquaintance with "the truth". Often you try to change the meanings of your previous remarks by claiming they were 'whimsy'.
That was a dishonest and stalking response to a remark I made in a very narrow context,
The remark you made did not say that it was in any particular context.



You have no right to make pejorative extrapolations beyond that context.
Accepting your words, at face value is hardly an 'extrapolation'. A 'scientist' would know that an extrapolation is using a basic statement and expanding its meaning to include things not already there.

. . .
I note that the truth didn't particularly matter to you yesterday, by the way, when you misinterpreted your graph to us and did not retract, in spite of your being pulled up for it. An absolute disgrace, now laced with a healthy dose of hypocrisy.

Hardly 'my' graph. It was from a reputable website, and linked to in order that others could view its source.
My only comment on the graph was:
The pound continues its downward soar, Keith. (Steve Shaw)
The figures don't appear to support your claim.
Maybe you're just using a poor supplier. (Me)

In view of your more recent comments:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM

Anyway, the bottom line is that the pound is languishing this morning at the level it's been at for about the last four or five months. The rate I can get from Caxton this morning for my holiday money is a cent and a half lower than when I bought some less than 48 hours ago. One swallow clearly did not a summer make.
It appears I had nothing to 'retract'.

I still agree with your comment about your relationship with the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:50 AM

Er, who precisely are these "we," Nigel? That was a dishonest and stalking response to a remark I made in a very narrow context, responding as I was to this:

"https://www.fxcm.com/insights/what-causes-volatility-in-the-british-pound/
They don't like the truth at 'em. Not one little bit!(with apologies to lance corporal Jones)"

You have no right to make pejorative extrapolations beyond that context. Your sniping response was opportunistic and disreputable in the extreme. I note that the truth didn't particularly matter to you yesterday, by the way, when you misinterpreted your graph to us and did not retract, in spite of your being pulled up for it. An absolute disgrace, now laced with a healthy dose of hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:56 AM

Thank you for your honesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:52 AM

From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:47 AM
Political instability doesn't get much worse than trying to oust the current leader, which is apparently being discussed by Tory MP's.

Tory Unrest

I could suggest that before you start castigating remainers you have a look at your own party, which seems to be in an ever present state of turmoil.

I would like to argue with your viewpoint.
Unfortunately, on this occasion, it is disappointingly accurate.