BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:20 PM

Can anyone see the border issue leading to a united Ireland? The UK have not wanted to have anything to do with the north for a long time. The republic don't want it. NI voted to stay in Europe. This could force the issue.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:18 PM

A bit more dirt on the shady BrexShit Campaign bunch...

https://www.facebook.com/campaigntoremain/posts/523412008025287

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:14 PM

and there was me thinking Jim had lost his keyboard.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 02:03 PM

"Is that a simple explanation from a simple mind?"

Good lad.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 12:08 PM

"Is that a simple explanation from a simple mind?"

You've posted very little lately but you've managed to post two gratuitous insults in the space of a few hours. You may not have noticed it but this place is calming down and it may be a good idea if you managed to work out why that is. There's only you doing this now and it sticks out like a sore thumb. Try to keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 11:59 AM

I did promise I would get back to Nigel's post about the border, but I will keep it brief.

The border as it is at present, is, presumably, the type of border that the Irish (both North & South) would like to see in the future.
Why should this change?

The border question was in the original critical things to resolve, it was listed on Friday by Tusk as one of the key things still needing to be resolved, the Taoiseach and the Irish minister have both said the issue is unresolved and Teresa May, in saying it is 'almost resolved', agrees it still isn't.

We also have an veritable army of civil servants on both sides beavering away at it.

Do you honestly think "we can just do more or less what we do now, can't we?" hasn't be considered and rejected?

Then you say the UK does not want a hard border. The problem there is that it is perfectly possible to want contradictory things at the same time. So when the Irish government asks the UK to formally commit that it will not have a hard border it turns out is unwilling to do so, as detailed in the links others have provided. And to be honest I can see why they would want to retain the *option* of a hard border, even though they don't want a hard border.

Finally, though, here is a clipping from, I think, the Times, though it might have been the Telegraph:

While the British have made all the right noises about maintaining the border in its current state, no details as to how this can be achieved have been forthcoming. Suspicions that the issue was not being taken seriously were underlined on Friday when Boris Johnson, the British foreign secretary, suggested that matters relating to the Irish border could be resolved as part of a wider discussion on EU borders, including that between Dover and Calais. Mr Johnson?s apparent failure to understand the differences between these borders is alarming and capped a bad week for Anglo-Irish relations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 11:54 AM

Here you go, BrexShiteers - just one of the many things you voted for. Congratulations, there'll be sod-all left by the time we bang out...

https://www.facebook.com/scientistsforeu/posts/1197639380338069

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 10:56 AM

A bit like the U.K. game of happy families that led us to a minority government, presided over by the Weak and Wobbly Praying Mantis, who had to jump into bed with a bunch of Irish terrorist sympathisers to hold on to power.

Makes Germany's troubles look like a tea-party, dunnit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 10:43 AM

Is that a simple explanation from a simple mind?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 10:24 AM

"The european game of happy families is having a spot more bother."

Er, probably a waste of time this, but you don't seem to understand that the political process continues in the sovereign states of the EU regardless? The Germans get to decide who runs Germany, it's nothing to do with the EU. So it's a German game of happy families.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 09:21 AM

Oh dear, Merkel is in a bit of a pickle. Election anyone?
I wonder how this will impact brexit.
The european game of happy families is having a spot more bother.
Thank God we are getting out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 07:06 AM

The 'intervening BrexShiteers' are too busy gazing out of the window, looking for the first unicorn....

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:58 AM

We had better be careful though, Steve. Too many posts without an intervening Brexiteer is frowned on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:57 AM

Scrolling down the image on the website works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:49 AM

How do we see the reverse, DMcG?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:48 AM

I can't see a scintilla of ambiguity in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:45 AM

Another attempt at the leaflet promising the money IS for the NHS on the front page and as a headline for all to see. The reverse pretty much declares the headline to be misleadibg.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:37 AM

"I suppose you might take the implication that all 350 million would go to the NHS, but that is not specifically spelt out."

This is why the country is divided. Some people are now quite happy to make excuses for outright lies, as if the truth is an irrelevance. I'm sure they'll argue that the advert wasn't on the bust wasn't supposed to be the truth and he, we all knew it wasn't nudge-nudge... but the truth is it was pitched as a fact and people (lots) DID believe it was a fact.

Some folk have low standards, and they're in the ascendance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:29 AM

That leaflet, by the way, is from Gisela Stuart who was co-chair of the Leave campaign so the leaflet presumably does reflect "Vote Leave"'s stance: we are not talking some remote mp who may be off message. Also, of course, these leaflets are designed to be stuck in windows so the reverse side, which has more caveats, would not be visible.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:06 AM

Sorry setting up the link is tricky on this damn phone. Here it is unlinked
https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/objects/lse:paf829reh

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 06:04 AM

NHS funds?



The LSE has a repository of Brexit leaflets. You might like to look at this one to decide how ambiguous it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM

The pound sign ( £ ) seems to give particular problems as it is not used in many languages.
To get it to show here use '& pound' without the apostrophes and without the space between '&' and 'pound'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:23 AM

If I've said it once in this forum I've said it twenty times. The whole referendum campaign was disreputable, dishonest and undemocratic ON BOTH SIDES OF THE DEBATE. Thank you. Now as for the 350 million per week for the NHS, it doesn't matter what clever ol' Nigel "read between the lines" (so he tells us now that the thing has been exposed as a blatant lie - face-saving or what, Nigel??): the CLEAR intention of the simplistic message was to hoodwink the public into thinking that leaving would mean an extra 350 million per week for the NHS. It was not only emblazoned on Boris's bus but was reinforced again and again by Farage and co. and I don't recall too many of your fellow leavers, saying "Hang on a sec, whoa, chaps, let's not over-egg the pudding here..."

It won't let me do pound signs either, John. I'll look into it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:13 AM

Don't crow too soon, Nigs - people are already considerably worse-off and, in case you hadn't realised, we haven't yet dropped over the cliff-edge of the Hard-Brexit that this bunch of Tory morons are dragging us towards.

But no problem - you just keep your fingers in your ears, sing "La la la", and keep telling yourself that the unicorns are on their way. After all, ignorance is bliss.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:13 AM

Backwoodsman.
Just fill in the box, hit 'preview' and submit, then check what the preview box shows.
Correct any problems with the output (in the original message box) check 'preview' again, if the preview appears correct press submit, otherwise repeat the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:03 AM

That question mark was a pound sign - looks like the gremlins are back (any ideas Steve - my Smart-Punctuation on my iPad is turned off?).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:02 AM

So, Nige, you accepted the lie propagated by your side.
No. I read what it said, and understood what it didn't say.
You, presumably, accepted all the lies spoken by the 'Remain' side, and are totally amazed that we didn't get immediate mass unemployment and a sixty billion pound 'black hole' in the budget, and require an immediate punitive budget immediately after the vote.

The lies told by the Remain campaign have already been proved as such. The claims made by the leave campaign can only be truly judged once we actually leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 04:06 AM

The Independent are today reporting that the average family is already ?800 a year worse-off because of the Brexit vote.

Well duh! Just like the farmers who voted 'Leave', but still expect their EU subsidies, or the fish-processors who voted 'Leave' but still want their free-market arrangements with the EU, the Brexiteer-Muppets seem not to have seen that coming.#bunchoffeeble-mindedpillocks

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:48 PM

So, Nige, you accepted the lie propagated by your side. And didn't say anything. Well, at least I don't recall you saying anything. But why would you care? As long as the plebs swallowed it hook, line and sinker and voted leave. What else mattered, Nige?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:31 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:06 PM
You must be the only person in tbe country, Nigel, who didn't see that as an assurance that brexit would mean 350 million quid a week saved that would go into the NHS. Of course, the savvy among us didn't believe a word of it.

So I was the only person who didn't believe that that it meant 350 million per week to the NHS, but you didn't believe it either.
So, by your argument, it wasn't just me.

What, exactly, was your understanding?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:57 PM

I'll be honest, John. I don't want to see Nigel being a stripper. No, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:23 PM

Just got in and am off straight to bed so will not have a chance to comment fully until later...


But Isnt this is the second time Nigel has called us an echo chamber? ... (smile)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:06 PM

You must be the only person in tbe country, Nigel, who didn't see that as an assurance that brexit would mean 350 million quid a week saved that would go into the NHS. Of course, the savvy among us didn't believe a word of it. But the intent of the slogan was clear and it was nakedly populist. Get honest for a change, Nige, not least with yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 03:57 PM

You should get a job as a stripper - the way you wriggle, you'd be a sensation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 02:53 PM

What "?350 million a week"?

Or are you referring to the advert on the side of a bus which said:
"We send the EU 350 million a week
let's fund our NHS instead Vote Leave"

I suppose you might take the implication that all 350 million would go to the NHS, but that is not specifically spelt out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 02:45 PM

Britain has made clear that it will not install any hard border infrastructure.
Obviously we can not stop the Irish doing it on their side.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 01:56 PM

We threw the spanner in the works by voting to leave. The current border arrangement can't work because it will in future be between an EU and a non-EU country. One in the EU customs union, the other not. It is not about the EU throwing a spanner in the works. It is about the EU doing what it should be doing as a group of 27 nations, making sure that its rules are maintained.

"It almost seems a shame to bring in a level of reasoned argument."

Don't be so bloody rude. There have been plenty of contributions in this thread putting reasoned arguments from remainers. Convince us of your own mighty powers of reasoning, Nigel, starting off by telling us where the ?350 million a week for the NHS is coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 01:40 PM

I realise that there is a lot of 'echo chamber' effect here, as you all congratulate each other on being in agreement.
Several posts each since the last comment by anyone in favour of Brexit.

It almost seems a shame to bring in a level of reasoned argument.

The border as it is at present, is, presumably, the type of border that the Irish (both North & South) would like to see in the future.
Why should this change?

We already have different rates of duty on alcohol, tobacco & fuel between UK, Ireland, and also the various states of the EU. Customs officers are likely to stop drivers arriving from France or the Netherlands, and check whether they are bringing in excess alcohol or tobacco. This doesn't happen at the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. So we already have a 'special' arrangement as far as that border is concerned.
Surely this is an example of what is likely to be the case in future.

That is what Ireland want, and presumably what our negotiating team want as well. The only place a 'spanner in the works' is likely to appear from is the EU team.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 09:20 AM

Isn't it amazing how the Tories have suddenly turned against the Telegraph. Us lefties have to roll with media punches all the time and always have had to. But when one of their paper poodles nibbles back their backwoodsmen (sorry AGAIN, John!) start sending death threats to each other in droves, etc. So thin-skinned! It wouldn't be half so bad if this ship of fools had a captain. As it is, it doesn't even have a rudder.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 08:54 AM

Don't hold your breath- unless the Daily Heil, The Scum, or The Torygraph have miraculously come up with the answer in this morning's editions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 08:53 AM

Let's call the whole thing off!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 08:01 AM

This is the model people like Kenneth Clarke are referring to where there is in effect a hard border in the sea. But let's not monopolize the conversation, Steve. I am sure many Brexiteer will be along at any moment to give their solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:56 AM

Situation with the North of Ireland and the Republic is a special case.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:43 AM

But making Northern Ireland a special case would automatically mean making the Republic a special case, wouldn't it? It would still mean someone on the EU side sidestepping the border controls with non-EU states that the other 27 (or 26) have to abide by.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM

Either there's full border controls or Ireland has to be allowed to be a special case.
Or Northern Ireland has to be a special case. Theoretically more achievable, but perhaps having the DUP propping you up doesn't help.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 07:12 AM

I suppose a mini-Schengen for movement of people would be achievable, but the movement across the border of goods is a minefield. Every car would have to have its boot checked (trunk, yanks). Either there's full border controls or Ireland has to be allowed to be a special case. Can't see it somehow. The EU is scared of making special cases, which is why David Davis is finding that queen, country, Biggles books and empire are getting him nowhere. He's the last man on earth who we need to be on a learning curve, tragically for this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:55 AM

I think 'border infrastructure' is a good phrase. Those of little wit may assume it just means huts with red and white gates like something from a WWII film. Not, it means any infrastructure that has the effect of creating a border where all movement across it is monitored, whatever the technology.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:51 AM

Philip Hammond on Marr: "there are no unemployed people".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:34 AM

Border infrastructure (what a great way of putting it!) is unavoidable unless Ireland is allowed by the EU to be a special case and to break EU rules. We can make whatever border arrangements we like with other freestanding countries, but Ireland is in the EU and, quite rightly, can't override rules that apply to all the other member states. There's a mountain to climb in order to avoid most of the aspects of what a hard border would entail. I mean, what about the fact that they will be in a customs union that we no longer subscribe to? Leaving the border open for the free passage of goods, as now, would be seen as an outrage by other member states. Some of us worried about this before the referendum. What a pity the leave side swept it under the carpet. Yet another piece of their dishonesty. It was all going to be so easy, wasn't it? Such a simple decision to make!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 04:57 AM

Just saying how we find each other comical is not advancing the arguments much.

Andrew Marr was questioning John McDonnell on NI border, so it seems to be seeping in this might be an issue.

The BBC reported:

====
Mr Coveney (Eire Foreign Minister) added: "We simply don't see how we can avoid border infrastructure.

"Once standards change it creates differences between the two jurisdictions and a different rule book.

"When you have a different rule book you are starting to go down the route of having to have checks."

====

Since the UK assurance they don't want a hard border is clearly not enough to satisfy Eire, what else do Iains, Stanron, Nigel and others think we need to do to assess the border issue?