BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 03:07 AM

Tom Peck in the Independent wrote an article about the EU response to the White paper, which ends with the following. I think the question it asks is something we all need to ask.

===

At the start of her Belfast speech, by the way, [Teresa May] referred to what she had said "outside 10 Downing Street" when she became prime minister, about how the Conservative party’s full name is the Conservative and Unionist Party, "and how important that word, Unionist, is to me".

But there are some other words said by her outside 10 Downing Street about a year later, when she sought to consolidate her abysmal election campaign by rattling her sabre at Brussels, that suddenly feel more relevant, and which I quote here at length.

"This Brexit negotiation is central to everything," she said then.

"If we don’t get the negotiation right, your economic security and prosperity will be put at risk and the opportunities you seek for your families will simply not happen.

"If we do not stand up and get this negotiation right we risk the secure and well-paid jobs we want for our children and our children’s children too.

"If we don’t get the negotiation right, if we let the bureaucrats of Brussels run over us, we will lose the chance to build a fairer society with real opportunity for all."

How well do we think that’s going, exactly? Does it, maybe, kind of feel like that risk that was taken with our children and our children’s children’s futures might not be paying off?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 09:24 PM

Thing is, since the referendum, after which the pound collapsed, the pound has yet to achieve the rather modest level it attained five years ago. Clutching at straws again, Nige. Your attempts at deflection from the undeniably miserable picture are pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 08:59 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 02:40 PM
. . . I could also point out that immediately before the Brexit vote it has been trading at around 1.30 Euro to the pound and above for several years.

Once again this false claim which you have made before.
Immediately prior to the Brexit vote the pound was indeed trading at over 1.30 Euro. But not "for several years".
The graph of exchange rates shows that the pound did not hit 1.30 (or above) at any time between 2009 and the end of 2014. Pound/EU Rates

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:01 PM

i'm sure everyone else (if they are honest) is just as bored and confused by the whole stupid idea as i am

I would not say I am bored by it - it is too important. Confused? Well, it is definitely confusing because everything is so incoherent. Only today, for example, Jeremy Hunt was saying the white paper is not the final word, in direct contraction to Andrea Leadsom yesterday who was saying it was. That's the level of mess we are in. The only way to get any handle at all on it is to accept that the UK proposals do not make a logical whole, and whatever is said is about picking acceptable forms of words while avoiding attaching any definite meaning to them, thus allowing everyone to interpret them to suit their own inclinations. Sometimes that is excellent politics. At other times, like now, it is disastrous. That lack of meaning is why Teresa May was not able to explain to the liaison committee how her customs plan would actually work.

Is the whole thing a stupid idea? Most certainly.

Am I honest? *I* think so, but others must judge for themselves :)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 04:07 PM

keith 'it is the responsibility of the government to get the best possible deal for us' well, that seems very obvious to me but some brexiteers i speak to seem to think may etc are in the business of selling us out and are suspicious of any distilling of the hard line brexit means brexit call. especially if it involves thinking by experts or liberals. our current government has tied itself into so many bizarre knots by trying to appease all parts of its party and ukippers that it literally makes no sense whatsoever. time to abandon the whole project eh? i'm sure everyone else (if they are honest) is just as bored and confused by the whole stupid idea as i am

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 02:46 PM

Iains, a short time ago an idiot claimed that the pound had "soared" because it had risen by one half of one cent,

The idiot was no-one here. It was a quote from Reuters I think.

that it's the responsibility of the EU to give the U.K. everything it wants.

Of course it is not, but it is the responsibility of our government to get the best possible deal for us.
You seem to object to that.
Should we accept any scraps thrown to us? Is that what you want for your kids and grandkids?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 02:40 PM

Iains, a short time ago an idiot claimed that the pound had "soared" because it had risen by one half of one cent, which as you and I both know is less than one half of one percent, which again both you and I realise is not "soaring"

You made no response to that inane claim at the time, in fact your silence was "deafening"

So if I now claimed that the pound has "plummeted" because it has fallen by double the amount that was claimed for "soaring" I don't really see how you can object.

Yes, you are correct to point out that a year ago the pound was in fact lower.

I could also point out that immediately before the Brexit vote it has been trading at around 1.30 Euro to the pound and above for several years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 02:37 PM

that it's the responsibility of the EU to give the U.K. everything it wants.

Not how I see it.
We have to leave. That has been decided.
Both sides want a deal that minimises damage, but each also wants the best for itself.
Free trade is mutually beneficial but only UK side seems to be pushing for that.
If no compromise can be reached, a mutually damaging exit will happen. We will have to see who it hurts most, or who blinks first.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 01:36 PM

An interesting aspect of Brexit in this mornings paper which stared as a paeon odf praise for the British/Irish cultural connection, but finished up like this
It should be of interest to those of us here for the music - but certainly won't be to some
Jim Carrolj

THE IRISH TIMES Friday, July 20, 2018
CULTURAL RELIEF FROM THE HEAT AND ENDLESS MADNESS OF BREXIT
Denis Staunton London Letter

.....Over the next eight weeks, about 300, 000 people will attend almost 80 concerts at the Royal Albert Hall and other venues, many paying just £6 for a standing ticket. Among the themes this year are the centenaries of the end of the first World War, the introduction of women’s suffrage and the birth of Leonard Bernstein.
If today’s programme of Schumann, Mendelssohn and others fails to excite you, there are still tickets available for La Bohéme at the Royal Opera House, some for as little as £11. The Lehman Trilogy at the
National Theatre, directed by Sam Mendes and starring Simon Russell Beale as one of the Lehman brothers, is sold out for its entire run.
But you should get a ticket for this evening’s performance of Patrick Marber’s adaptation of Ionesco’s Exit the King, with Rhys Ifans and Indira Varma. And during the afternoon, you could take in the Summer Exhibition at the Royal Academy, co-ordinated this year by Grayson Perry.

NATIONAL IDENTITY
The wealth and excellence of London’s cultural offering is not only a major tourist attraction and one of the joys of living in the city, it is a long¬standing part of Britain’s national identity.
In Humphrey Jennings’s 1942 propaganda film Listen to Britain, a visual poem spanning 24 hours across wartime
Britain, the climactic scene shows Myra Hess performing a Mozart piano concerto at a lunchtime concert at the National Gallery. The music plays over a montage of shots showing the queen (later the queen mother) in the audience. Trafalgar Square, Nelson’s Column, buses rounding a corner and a barrage balloon flying overhead.
Then it cuts to a scene of soldiers marching, bayonets raised and to a munitions factory, with a piston rising and falling. The film’s final images of wheatfield, a factory, a power station and an aerial shot of the English landscape through the clouds are accompanied by Elgar’s Rule Britannia.

The film has no commentary, save for a prologue spoken by Leonard Brockington, a Canadian barrister: “Many years ago, a great American, speaking of Britain, said that in the storm of battle and conflict, she had a secret rigour and a pulse like a cannon. In the great sound picture that is here presented, you too will hear that heart beating. For blended together in one great symphony is the music of Britain at war.
“The evening hymn of the lark, the roar of the Spitfires, the dancers in the great ballroom at Blackpool, the clank of machinery and shunting trains. Soldiers of Canada holding in memory, in proud memory, their home on the range. The BBC sending truth on its journey around the world. The trumpet call of freedom, the war song of a great people. The first sure notes of the march of victory, as you, and I, listen to Britain. ”

Heard today, the words sound like a distillation of the spirit invoked by the most romantic Brexiteers and the Last Night of the Proms has itself in recent years become a battleground for Brexit. Remainers in the audience have taken to bringing European flags into the Royal Albert Hall to wave alongside the Union Jacks during the final, patriotic sequence in the programme.

PRACTICAL PROBLEM
The audience for opera and classical music in Britain includes a generous share of Brexiteers, but among those who work in the arts, it is more difficult to find anyone who doesn’t regret the decision to leave the EU. For many, Brexit could be as much a practical problem as a political one, as composer Howard Goodall pointed out recently.
“Even if we were to negotiate visa-free access for musicians, orchestral players would still see 15-20 per cent of their
salary deducted to pay for social security in their host country, a cost that is currently waived under the EU’s A1 system, ” he wrote.

“Even the movement of instruments would become more problematic. Outside of a customs union, musicians would need to hold an ATA Carnet to avoid paying import duties and taxes on their instruments. Such carnets are expensive, and checks will lead to long queues at borders. ”
The Creative Industries Federation warned last month that, without an agreement to guarantee ease of movement between Britain and the EU, the impact on the UK’s position in the international cultural world would be “catastrophic”.
Chief executive John Kampfner suggested summer festivals could be hit especially hard by extra costs for visas and transporting equipment

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 01:36 PM

An interesting aspect of Brexit in this mornings paper which stared as a paeon odf praise for the British/Irish cultural connection, but finished up like this
It should be of interest to those of us here for the music - but certainly won't be to some
Jim Carrolj

THE IRISH TIMES Friday, July 20, 2018
CULTURAL RELIEF FROM THE HEAT AND ENDLESS MADNESS OF BREXIT
Denis Staunton London Letter

.....Over the next eight weeks, about 300, 000 people will attend almost 80 concerts at the Royal Albert Hall and other venues, many paying just £6 for a standing ticket. Among the themes this year are the centenaries of the end of the first World War, the introduction of women’s suffrage and the birth of Leonard Bernstein.
If today’s programme of Schumann, Mendelssohn and others fails to excite you, there are still tickets available for La Bohéme at the Royal Opera House, some for as little as £11. The Lehman Trilogy at the
National Theatre, directed by Sam Mendes and starring Simon Russell Beale as one of the Lehman brothers, is sold out for its entire run.
But you should get a ticket for this evening’s performance of Patrick Marber’s adaptation of Ionesco’s Exit the King, with Rhys Ifans and Indira Varma. And during the afternoon, you could take in the Summer Exhibition at the Royal Academy, co-ordinated this year by Grayson Perry.

NATIONAL IDENTITY
The wealth and excellence of London’s cultural offering is not only a major tourist attraction and one of the joys of living in the city, it is a long¬standing part of Britain’s national identity.
In Humphrey Jennings’s 1942 propaganda film Listen to Britain, a visual poem spanning 24 hours across wartime
Britain, the climactic scene shows Myra Hess performing a Mozart piano concerto at a lunchtime concert at the National Gallery. The music plays over a montage of shots showing the queen (later the queen mother) in the audience. Trafalgar Square, Nelson’s Column, buses rounding a corner and a barrage balloon flying overhead.
Then it cuts to a scene of soldiers marching, bayonets raised and to a munitions factory, with a piston rising and falling. The film’s final images of wheatfield, a factory, a power station and an aerial shot of the English landscape through the clouds are accompanied by Elgar’s Rule Britannia.

The film has no commentary, save for a prologue spoken by Leonard Brockington, a Canadian barrister: “Many years ago, a great American, speaking of Britain, said that in the storm of battle and conflict, she had a secret rigour and a pulse like a cannon. In the great sound picture that is here presented, you too will hear that heart beating. For blended together in one great symphony is the music of Britain at war.
“The evening hymn of the lark, the roar of the Spitfires, the dancers in the great ballroom at Blackpool, the clank of machinery and shunting trains. Soldiers of Canada holding in memory, in proud memory, their home on the range. The BBC sending truth on its journey around the world. The trumpet call of freedom, the war song of a great people. The first sure notes of the march of victory, as you, and I, listen to Britain. ”

Heard today, the words sound like a distillation of the spirit invoked by the most romantic Brexiteers and the Last Night of the Proms has itself in recent years become a battleground for Brexit. Remainers in the audience have taken to bringing European flags into the Royal Albert Hall to wave alongside the Union Jacks during the final, patriotic sequence in the programme.

PRACTICAL PROBLEM
The audience for opera and classical music in Britain includes a generous share of Brexiteers, but among those who work in the arts, it is more difficult to find anyone who doesn’t regret the decision to leave the EU. For many, Brexit could be as much a practical problem as a political one, as composer Howard Goodall pointed out recently.
“Even if we were to negotiate visa-free access for musicians, orchestral players would still see 15-20 per cent of their
salary deducted to pay for social security in their host country, a cost that is currently waived under the EU’s A1 system, ” he wrote.

“Even the movement of instruments would become more problematic. Outside of a customs union, musicians would need to hold an ATA Carnet to avoid paying import duties and taxes on their instruments. Such carnets are expensive, and checks will lead to long queues at borders. ”
The Creative Industries Federation warned last month that, without an agreement to guarantee ease of movement between Britain and the EU, the impact on the UK’s position in the international cultural world would be “catastrophic”.
Chief executive John Kampfner suggested summer festivals could be hit especially hard by extra costs for visas and transporting equipment

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 01:05 PM

"I see the pound has "plummeted" against the Euro once again."


But compared to it's value around 13 months ago the pound has soared.

You need to define your terms laddie, otherwise you merely appear silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 12:42 PM

I see the pound has "plummeted" against the Euro once again.

Brexit don't you just love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 12:02 PM

DMcG - it's another example of the ludicrous stance taken by the Leavers ever since the Referendum, that it's the responsibility of the EU to give the U.K. everything it wants. Why do those Brexiteer bone-heads not understand - the U.K. took the decision to leave, the EU owes us nothing.

It's like someone resigning from the golf club, but still wanting to use the club-house and play the course - it ain't gonna happen.

It's a childishly simple concept, yet the 'Take are cuntry back', Union-Jack-Boxers Brigade seem completely incapable of understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 11:53 AM

I can't speak for anyone else, but I was waiting for the EU comments arising from the meeting with Raab and their thoughts on the White Paper. They are exactly as one would expect: the EU sees no reason why it should - for example - implement a tax collection system just to suit the UK. Nor is it prepared just to trust the UK to collect theirs.

Both absolutely reasonable, whatever the Brexiteers may feel.

There is an article in the Guardian today about how the Brexiteers will blame anyone except themselves for any problems.    It is always everyone else sabotaging things. Seems a fairly accurate observation of the Brexiteer mindset to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 11:12 AM

I assume the remainiacs argument factory has run out of stock!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 10:30 AM

I'm amazed he doesn't put his back out with all the wriggling and hip-swivelling. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:59 AM

"Jim, just ignore the twat."
Where's the fun in that
Just having a break from work - won't happen again (probably will when I need a break from reality)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:52 AM

Or maybe the next verse?

Like a tunnel that you follow to a tunnel of its own
Down a hollow to a cavern where the sun has never shone...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:47 AM

I am reminded of a song

Like a spiral in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel

Or maybe just twist and shout?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:00 AM

Jim, just ignore the twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 06:01 AM

"Also I called no-one a twat. I did say he had made a twat of himself."
Why have you people allowed this discussion to reach this level of imbecility?
Beggars belief - it really does
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:38 AM

No-one denies that the statement was made, but it has no significance. Just a strongly Remain MP repeating anti-Brexit propaganda. You could find plenty of Leave MPs' statements to stand against it if you wanted to.

For example, cheaper food, should it arrive, will undercut the farming industry and that would lead to job losses.

Bad example. Much of it will be products not grown here, and we intend to continue subsidising our farmers to protect them anyway.

Cheaper food will disproportionately benefit the poorest people for whom it is their main expenditure. Better to help them than wealthy land owners.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:26 AM

That the statement was made is fact. That is why I quoted Hansard. Separately, the statement that "people are saying this in private" may or may not be true, and whether the job losses will occur is a third thing, quite distinct from the first two.

But all that, and many of the responses so far, are not really relevant to my question. For example, cheaper food, should it arrive, will undercut the farming industry and that would lead to job losses. Professor Mitford, for one, is quite relaxed about that. I got the impression earlier that so was Iains, but if he wants to correct me, please do.

So that was the heart of my question. What is the trade off, if any, between the freedom to set your own rules and risk to jobs?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:24 AM

Rag, why not use the search facility on the BBC news site to find your "snippet."
All I can find is the Japanese/EU trade deal and the Toyota story just discussed here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:15 AM

Wiki on modern usage of "twat,"

Modern usage
Although sometimes used as a reference to the female genitalia (a usage that predominates for the word in North American English), the word twat is more often used in various other ways:
As a derogatory insult, a pejorative meaning a fool, a stronger alternative to the word twit – 'He can be a complete twat'[9] (frequent in British and Commonwealth English, and not unheard of in North America)
Informally as a verb meaning to hit someone[2] (a British usage)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:03 AM

Iains, I am typing on a tiny keyboard attached to my tiny tablet. I do not have access in my apartment to the internet and so I am doing this in a bar.
If you, and to a lesser extent Nigel, cannot understand that, well you have my sympathy, but I am certainly not going to apologise for it.
Once again people on your side of the discussion are picking up on trivialities and not addressing the core points.
The snippet of news I heard was from the BBC, normally a fairly reliable source,

Raggy,
This is the first time (19 hours later) that you have given a source for your 'snippet'. Previously it was: Another snippet I heard last night was that the new trade deal between the . . .
This could have been overheard from any source, be it one of numerous news channels, or even a discussion in a bar. That Is why I would give it very little credence compared to the well published quote from Toyota.
As you say, the BBC is normally a fairly reliable source. But we won't take that into account if we don't know you're quoting the BBC.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 04:52 AM

BWM, is "twat" so bad?
Also I called no-one a twat. I did say he had made a twat of himself.

Toyota have said what their plans are so no-one cares what he thinks they might be.
We know.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 04:44 AM

The same people told us that just voting leave would result in thousands of job losses. The opposite proved true.

If you only listen to one side you will just confirm your prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM

"What they have said in those private conversations is that the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs will be worth it to regain our country’s sovereignty"

quoting Handard on the above is ridiculous.
It is merely rumour and hearsay, with zero evidence to back it up.

The western australian hansard quotes fairies at the bottom of the garden. Do you believe that as well? as it was stated in hansard?

Opinion does not become fact just because Hansard is forced to quote everything verbatim
Hansard accurately reports. It has no mechanism to verify the accuracy of what is being reported

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 01:59 AM

I came across a quote this morning, from Mark Twain in 1906. It strikes me as being especially applicable to the Leave voters as the entire Brexit debacle, built as it is on a tissue of lies, unravels before our eyes, yet they steadfastly refuse to understand the extent to which they have been duped, and they continue to defend the indefensible...

"The glory which is built upon a lie soon becomes a most unpleasant incumbrance. … How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and how hard it is to undo that work again!” – Autobiographical dictation, 2 December 1906. Published in Autobiography of Mark Twain, Volume 2 (University of California Press, 2013)

Quote of the Day, AFAIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 03:45 PM

Brexit voters think that the loss of any number of jobs will be worth it, not so much for sovereignty, more for having less foreign sounding people around. As long as it isn't their job of course. But it will be, oh it will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 02:21 PM

"losing the loss" - I mean incurring the loss, of course. Let's not pick up on trivia instead of addressing her point.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 02:19 PM

On Monday, in the House of Commons and reported in Hansard Anna Soubry said:

If we do not deliver frictionless trade, either through a customs union or some magical third way that the Prime Minister thinks she can deliver—good luck to her on that—thousands of jobs will go, and hon. Members sitting on the Government Benches, in private conversations, know that to be the case. What they have said in those private conversations is that the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs will be worth it to regain our country’s sovereignty—tell that to the people who voted leave in my constituency. Nobody voted to be poorer, and nobody voted leave on the basis that somebody with a gold-plated pension and inherited wealth would take their jobs away from them

No one denied that that was "being said in private conversations" during the Debate.

I wonder if people here think losing the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs will be worth it to regain our country’s sovereignty? And if they think that is scaremongering, what would be acceptable? 50,000? 10,000?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 02:13 PM

Just ignore him, BWM, I do. The latest twists, turns and trap setting confirms that it is the best option.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 01:08 PM

Iains, I am typing on a tiny keyboard attached to my tiny tablet. I do not have access in my apartment to the internet and so I am doing this in a bar.

If you, and to a lesser extent Nigel, cannot understand that, well you have my sympathy, but I am certainly not going to apologise for it.

Once again people on your side of the discussion are picking up on trivialities and not addressing the core points.

The snippet of news I heard was from the BBC, normally a fairly reliable source, suggested that because of the trade deal between the EU and Japan etc various goods would no longer be subject to various tariffs. The reporter went on to suggest that vehicles, in particular, would become far cheaper when exported from Japan, Korea etc.

If this where to be the case then it may make better economics for Nissan, Kia et al to export from their bases in that part of Asia than to manufacture in the UK which will in all probability no longer be a a part of the EU in a short time.

If this does prove to be the case, the future of these companies within the UK the finance, the jobs will be lost.

Yet another unintended consequence of Brexit. Nobody wrote that on the side of a bus!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 01:01 PM

No answer for your bad language, Keefy?

In the Bad Language Richter-Scale, I'm fairly certain that calling a fellow contributor a 'twat' ranks considerably higher than inserting 'sh' into Brexit.

The second time I've had to remind you of the 'People in glasshouses' adage in recent days. Not quite the Mr. Perfect you like to pretend you are, are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 12:33 PM

I am being civil BWM, but making the reasonable point that Toyota have stated their intentions and no-one here suggesting otherwise will be believed. I would have left it there, but Dave came back with a dig at me over it.

Good to know that he does not ignore my posts. He just can't answer them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 12:29 PM

Still very early in the day, but Raab was saying he hoped to be getting progress on the White Paper, while the EU is saying - as it has done for the last two years or so - it needs the Withdrawal Agreement sorted first. David Davis went in wanting to talk trade before agreeing things like the Irish Border mechanisms, you remember.

So no progress at all by the sound of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 12:13 PM

"Maybe, but what is the likelyhood of you knowing more about Toyota's plans than they do?!

No-one would believe you on that Dave. You have made a twat of yourself again."

Thus spake he who exhorts everyone to be civil with each other on here, and rebukes others (such as me) for using bad language.

BrexShitter hypocrisy at its worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 12:04 PM

that does sound positive - but is that just grasping at straws. i very much hope this would be possible as i have 3 close relatives in estonia, italy and germany who want to get passports for those countries but are worried they would not be able to come back to the uk if necessary. great this brexit innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 12:03 PM

Dave,
maybe I'm right.

Maybe, but what is the likelyhood of you knowing more about Toyota's plans than they do?!

No-one would believe you on that Dave. You have made a twat of yourself again.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 11:43 AM

I thought anyone with a vague knowledge of these layouts could have worked it out. Niddling does not really add anything to the discussion though does it.
So why are you?

copy and paste from another source works extremely well

£ $ € ??? CFA ? T$
No excuses,even for antiques!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 11:22 AM

Well here's a bit of good news - the EU College of Commisioners is putting in motion the procedure which will hopefully allow UK citizens to claim permanent citizenship of the EU, should they wish, after we've finally been committed to the BrexShit Asylum.

Nothing written on tablets of stone, but they are at least inviting citizens of the other 27 Member States to indicate their support, or otherwise, for such a law to be enacted. Not quite the image of 'unelected bureaucrats forcing laws on Member States' that the BrexShitters would like everyone to believe is the standard Modus Operandi of the EU?

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4566_en.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 08:44 AM

See what I mean? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 08:37 AM

Dave, Toyota has said it will build the next generation of its Auris hatchback at its Burnaston plant in Derbyshire, so who cares what you say?

Also, Toyota said its Deeside factory in North Wales would build most of its engines, so again who cares what you say?

Why should anyone ignore Toyota's own statements just because they do not fit your prejudices?
Do you have any special knowledge? No.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 07:51 AM

I see it differently.

Therein lies the crux of the matter, Nigel. Maybe you're right and maybe I'm right. Maybe neither of us are and the truth is somewhere in the middle. I am more than happy to accept that and I suspect that you are as well. There are some however that will only ever believe that theirs is the only truth and that is where the discussions go downhill...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 07:31 AM

Nobody can commit themselves for an indefinite period, and you seem to choose to take the last part of that quote as relating to the first part. I see it differently.
Toyota has said it will build the next generation of its Auris hatchback at its Burnaston plant in Derbyshire.

The Japanese carmaker also said its Deeside factory in North Wales would build most of its engines

It goes on to say

In other words, it is firmly committed to the UK for now. But that commitment is not open-ended or unconditional. and

"With around 85% of our UK vehicle production exported to European markets, continued free and frictionless trade between the UK and Europe will be vital for future success." (Dr Johan van Zyl, president of Toyota Europe)

For now, Toyota is increasing its investment, and will build its new model in UK. Due to uncertainties it cannot make promises beyond these promises already made.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 06:49 AM

The article you link only mentions pledge in relation to what the government have promised. From the article itself.

Toyota has said it will build the next generation of its Auris hatchback at its Burnaston plant in Derbyshire.

The Japanese carmaker also said its Deeside factory in North Wales would build most of its engines

It goes on to say

In other words, it is firmly committed to the UK for now. But that commitment is not open-ended or unconditional. and

"With around 85% of our UK vehicle production exported to European markets, continued free and frictionless trade between the UK and Europe will be vital for future success." (Dr Johan van Zyl, president of Toyota Europe)

No promises or pledges in view and conditional on frictionless trade with Europe. Just saying something is worth about as much as putting it on the side of a bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 06:37 AM

Dave,
No, as I made clear (to the point of putting it in italics) it was a pledge. That does not make it 'speculation' (except in the financial sense).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 06:21 AM

Nigel, Toyota staying or leaving is in the future. As you are always keen to point it is just speculation regardless of where it comes from. I am just trying to maintain a balance as I am sure you are.