BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 08:31 AM

Stu, that link is absolutely laughable, there is no ties to the Russian Government or President Putins Chef!! :0)

This stuff is beyond belief, why would anyone in Russian Officialdom want to link the atrocity to Islamic Terrorism? Isis took responsibility and it was perpetrated by Jihadists.

The Russians want trade and d?tente, not another Cold War as promoted by the EU and Establishment America.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 08:40 AM

Not just the democratic process the Russians are interfering with:

Russian hackers targeted UK media and telecoms firms, confirms spy chief

There's a pattern emerging for those with the wits to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 10:34 AM

Anyway.

One percent of the world's population own half of the world's total wealth. Seventy percent of the world's working-age population own under three percent of the world's total wealth. Four in ten of the world's millionaires (measured by dollars) live in the US. One in twenty of the world's population live in the US. [Source: Credit Suisse]

Back in brexit blighted - oops, sorry, brexit Blighty - food price inflation last month reached 4.2% compared with 0.6% this time last year. We all know who food price inflation hits the hardest, don't we. Fish up 8.5%. Vegetables up 5.7%. Butter and oils up 5.6%. Dairy including eggs up 4.8%. [Source: ONS].

Still, at least we're all in it together, sort of. Well, except that we're not...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 11:05 AM

Stu, that link is absolutely laughable

Got any actual facts to back up your claim, Ake?

Oh, sorry, in Ake-istan, facts are irrelevent.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 12:09 PM

Steve,
Back in brexit blighted - oops, sorry, brexit Blighty - food price inflation last month reached 4.2% compared with 0.6% this time last year.

Overall inflation has peaked and is now expected to decline.
Food inflation is caused by our having to import expensive food from EU, or from elsewhere with tariffs adding to the cost.
All that will change with brexit.
You single out fish, which will be much cheaper when we stop EU boats plundering our fish stocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 01:52 PM

For the benefit of akenaton, another Beeb-basher who never checks his facts, I repeat part of a post of mine in this thread from 20 October.


"Ah yes, Nigel. As soon as the going gets tough, have a bash at the good old Beeb. I'm sure that Barnier and Juncker hang on Laura K's every word. Perhaps you would like her replaced by a Tory sycophant. Pity you can't have Jezza Paxo back. All those years at the helm, then we find out that he was a Tory all along. Tsk. Or you could try Andrew Neil, who worked for the Conservatives in his youth and was once the chairman of the Federation of Conservative students, not to speak of his dalliances with those raving Marxists, Murdoch and the Barclay brothers - or how about Nick Robinson, once chairman of the Young Conservatives, or even his former editor Robbie Gibb who used to work for Francis Maude as his chief of staff. Or how about that nice Tory Chris Patten, former chairman of the BBC trust. Or the charming Kamal Ahmed, filched from his post as executive business editor of those rabid leftie papers the Daily and Sunday Telegraph. Flippin' reds under the beds everywhere at the Beeb, eh!"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 17 - 04:14 PM

So only 12 votes in it for clause 58? As no one has, as far as I know, predicted any amendment being voted for until much later in the process, the government must find this worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 03:40 AM

Meanwhile, back on the subject...

Oh dear oh dear...

Intelligence watchdog urged to look at Russian influence on Brexit vote


Also see the following, which confirms what anyone paying attention already knew: Christopher Steele believes his dossier on Trump-Russia is 70-90% accurate

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 03:59 AM

The problem of interference in an election is a tricky one. Even if you can provide evidence it occurred you then have to decide what influence it had and what to do about it. Do you declare the election of Trump and the result of Brexit null and void and have a re-run? The American constitution is very well set about for most eventualities like assassinations and removal of Presidents for reasons of illness or illegality, but they are all predicated on the assumption there is a next-in-line to take the Present's place. They did not envision any situation where the entire line might be invalid. So who is in charge and what authority do the have while a rerun takes place?

Similarly with Brexit. Do you have another vote? If you say (as we should have done in the first place) that it is the job of Parliament to decide, won't they be heavily influenced by the now-void result?

Difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 04:18 AM

William Hague's Telegraph article, quoted in today's guardian.

"However, Weber?s optimistic comments about the Brexit financial settlement chimed with recent arguments by senior Tories such as William Hague, who wrote in the Daily Telegraph on Monday that ?if we want Brexit to be a success, we must pay them?.

?The Brexit talks are now quite clearly coming to such a crunch, where the UK has to decide whether a major and unpalatable concession is worth making in order to secure a large number of highly desirable objectives,? wrote Hague. ?Anyone who thinks there has ever been a chance of a free trade deal with the EU without doing this has been kidding themselves.?

=========

Anyone here prepared to admit they have been kidding themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 04:36 AM

From: Stu - PM
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 03:40 AM
Meanwhile, back on the subject...
Oh dear oh dear...
Intelligence watchdog urged to look at Russian influence on Brexit vote
Also see the following, which confirms what anyone paying attention already knew: Christopher Steele believes his dossier on Trump-Russia is 70-90% accurate

So, Christopher Steele 'believes' that his dossier is 70-90% accurate.
That means that he accepts that it is 10-30% inaccurate. And with nothing to tell us which 10-30% that makes the whole dossier unreliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 05:15 AM

Hmmm. I admit I don't like trying to say anything like 70-90% accurate on a document either, possibly related to the first report I published where the word 'now' got mistyped as 'not' and so inverted the conclusions of the report.

But we are not talking a scientific report here: it is from a world where uncertainty and doubt is the norm. There are accurate   quotations from.people who were mistaken themselves; there are misunderstandings of occasions when the person speaking was entirely correct. There are deliberate attempts to mislead the spy.

It is not a world I have been involved in but I would not suprised if 90% accurate is actually thought to be the highest possible standard.

And if so, that is the standard the governments and others work to.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM

Of course no other government would dream of interfering in elections, would they? The US and allies take more direct action.
What happened to the democratic government of Iran?(toppled by the US to bring in the Shah)
What happened in Syria? (illegal invasion by US and allies)
What happened to Gaddaafi(murdered for trying to introduce a pan african currency)
The list goes on...........
If you wish to believe everything fed you by the daily sheople that is your affair. The real world operates in a far less sanitised reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 05:39 AM

"And with nothing to tell us which 10-30% that makes the whole dossier unreliable."

Hard to get your head around, isn't it? Go away and have a think and the answer might come to you at some point. Here's clue: think about facts, about science and how that is presented.

DmG: It is difficult, but knowing that interference has occurred is important in and of itself. I suppose it's impossible to quantify the effect but to know it's there and tangible means we can (hopefully) counter it somehow but re-running the election or referendum is pointless.

I don;'t really care about the politics any more, what I find interesting is the relationships that are being unearthed between the Leave campaign and the Trump camp and the fact it's beginning to look like a concerted and targeted effort to lessen the influence of the US in the wider world (by electing a total fuckwit as President) and getting the UK out of Europe and into a position where it has little political influence on how the continent and beyond.

What Russia couldn't achieve by force of arms it is achieving by staying a step ahead wth regards to cyber warfare and the exploitation of social media as a way of influencing public opinion. They're good at it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 05:53 AM

I agree, Stu. It is far better to know, even if we don't then know how to use the information, than to stay in ignorance. At the very least, it can put us on guard for the next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 06:29 AM

<>From: Stu - PM
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 05:39 AM
"And with nothing to tell us which 10-30% that makes the whole dossier unreliable."
Hard to get your head around, isn't it? Go away and have a think and the answer might come to you at some point. Here's clue: think about facts, about science and how that is presented.

Nothing to go away and think about.
There is a dossier, the author of which says that it is only 70-90% accurate. If he doesn't say which 10-30% he believes is inaccurate, then any information he's given in that dossier is called into question.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 07:05 AM


Nothing to go away and think about.


Oh, there's ALWAYS something to think about.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 09:44 AM

"If he doesn't say which 10-30% he believes is inaccurate"

Ugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 10:30 AM

LONDON ? More than 150,000 Russian-language Twitter accounts posted tens of thousands of messages in English urging Britain to leave the European Union in the days before last year?s referendum on the issue, a team of researchers disclosed on Wednesday.

More than 400 of the accounts that Twitter has already identified to congressional investigators as tools of the Kremlin, other researchers said, also posted divisive messages about Britain?s decision on withdrawing from the bloc, or Brexit, both before and after the vote.

Most of the messages sought to inflame fears about Muslims and immigrants to help drive the vote, suggesting parallels to the strategy that Russian propagandists employed in the United States in the 2016 election to try to intensify the polarization of the electorate.

The separate findings amount to the strongest evidence yet of a Russian attempt to use social media to manipulate British politics in the same way the Kremlin has done in the United States, France and elsewhere.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/world/europe/russia-brexit-twitter-facebook.html

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 10:57 AM

More common sense from James O'Brien on LBC. Of course, our BrexShit-Supporter-Muppets here won't get it, because it's.....errrrmmm....common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 11:56 AM

Even if the Russians did try to influence the outcome(which I doubt) then do you seriously think others(namely ourselves) do not have a similar dirty tricks department? The western powers also have an unenviable track record of interfering more directly in other countries:
Mohammad Mosaddegh Iran for nationalising the oil reserves (BP)
Saddam Hussein Iraq mythical weapons of mass destruction.
Muammar Gaddafi Libya for trying to iintroduce a gold backed pan african currency
Bashar Hafez al-Assad Syria attempted replacement by illegal war for refusing quatari pipeline
Afghanistan
etc
etc

People in glass houses...........!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 11:58 AM

Is having the Russians try to encourage us to leave any worse than the President of the USA trying to persuade us to stay?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 12:19 PM

Strange I did not think the earlier post of mine went anywhere. I had repeated 504 gateway errors and Mudcat was unavailable at that point. Apologies for virtually identical double post.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 01:33 PM

People in glass houses...........!

Gotcha Iains: Mommy! Mommmeeee!!! Johnny did it FIRST!

Is having the Russians try to encourage us to leave any worse than the President of the USA trying to persuade us to stay?

If you seriously don't know the answer to that question, you, sir, are an...... well, never mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 17 - 04:49 PM

I agree with Nigel, President Obama came over here not only trying to persuade us to vote remain, but actually threatening us that if we dared to vote leave we would "go straight to the back of the queue" regarding trade with the US.......Now there's a real friend.

I'll take my chances with the Russians any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 01:31 AM

There seems to be a bit of a flavour that Ake and Nigel are unconcerned if Russia is manipulating the elections. Have I misread that?


I would draw several distinctions between what Obama definitely did and what the Russians are accused of. But the biggest is that Obama expressed a view once (and when he was subsequently asked he confirmed that was his view). So it was in essence one off. That to me is different from a sustained campaign lasting months with actions daily or more frequently, which is what Russia is accused of.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 03:27 AM

There seems to be a bit of a flavour that Ake and Nigel are unconcerned if Russia is manipulating the elections. Have I misread that?

I'm not unconcerned. I'm just pointing out that those making a thing of it now seemed unconcerned by Obama's attempt at influence at the time.

Just looking for a degree of balance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 05:24 AM

Obama's 'attempt at influence' was open and was one man stating his views. Russia's manipulations are a concerted and covert operation to destabilise the politics of the west. No degree of balance at all. They are chalk and cheese.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 06:08 AM

Oh dear.

David Davis blames Germany and France for Brexit talks deadlock

Davis is like one of those kids at school who acted tough but burst into tears when some poor kid he picked on snapped and twatted him, then started bawling at the teacher "it was him!!" to try to get his own back, even though everyone saw him start it.

I suppose as brexit was built on exploiting the sense of victimhood of old white people, it comes as little surprise that the old white people doing the 'negotiating' cry like babies when they don't get their way and try to foist the responsibility onto someone else.

Brexiteers do this as an excuse for all the failings of their myopic ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 06:15 AM

Hey Stu! Don't tar all old white people with the same brush :-( Some of us have fought all our lives for a fairer society and hate the current crop of shyster politicians and devious press barons as much as you do. I would rather be associated with Ghengis Khan!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 07:11 AM

Of course it was a sweeping generalisation, and I do know plenty of folk that were remainers. However, it's also inescapable that the older generation that has trashed the futures of the young; if they hadn't been so bloody selfish and unquestioning they might have made a more informed decision. It's ever been thus I suppose.

Meanwhile, the Brexiteers have put not only the Good Friday Agreement but peace in Ireland at risk with their astounding lack of concern for the border in Ireland. It's difficult to see how anyone would be willing to sacrifice the progress made over the last twenty years for an ideal that sees division and exclusion as a good thing. The Brexiteer attitude to Ireland betrays the dishonesty and arrogance that is the heart of Brexit; millions of little Cromwells happy to risk the suffering of others for a pack of lies. They will have blood on their hands if this goes tits up.

Good on the Irish PM for standing his ground: Irish PM: I will block Brexit talks unless hard border is off the table

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 07:27 AM

?their astounding lack of concern for the border in Ireland

While I agree, and while I was appalled by the way Leadsom and others waved it away as a non-issue because we had had a semi-formal trade between Eire and Northern Ireland before joining the EU, I have to say those arguing to Remain didnt make as much of the problens either. It didnt take much thought to see how difficult this would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 08:02 AM

It's ever been thus I suppose

Agreed, Stu, and as one of the 'angry young men' of the 60s I am saddened to see it happening over and over again. We are now 2 generations past that and each new generation seems to forget the ideals of their youth. We can but hope that the percentage of those that stick to their principles increases until we get the better society that we all hope for.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 01:21 PM

Tell you what. The jaws of many of even the most enthusiastic brexiteers must be dropping in droves tonight, having witnessed the horror show of David Davis's interview with Laura K in the evening news. Unbebuggeringlievable.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 02:36 PM

Have a Google over what's happening with drug regulation. Be sure you are not sitting near breakable objects. They truly have no idea of the complexity regulating the pharma industry, and if we crash out in 2019, they don't have time to set up an alternative anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 02:58 PM

I see the pound has fallen yet again, must be all those wonderful GDP figures messing things up

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Nov 17 - 02:59 PM

You would be more usefully employed googling banking regulation within the EU and how your ring fenced deposits are being gently unfenced ready for another cypriot haircut.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:18 AM

Why, Iain's? No Leaver I knew thought the EU was perfect. It is why Corbyn famously said 7 out of 10 and upset those who felt only 100% support could be given. I, and others I know, found the way Greece was treated such that it was the nearest we came to voting Leave.

But again, your focus is on economics. You really do need to give some more thoight to the politics of the norder with Ireland. It is not going too far, I think, to say it is the real crunch question, not the "exit bill".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 04:29 AM

Only money matters to some. McG. Fortunately there seems to be a rise in the number of responsible capitalists and they are giving the old order a run for their money by doing things like paying decent wages and caring for the environment.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 06:57 AM

"You would be more usefully employed googling banking regulation"

Sigh. They really don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 08:25 AM

Mealy-mouthed avoidance and head-in-the-sand attitudes from the Brexiteers make it difficult to find any common ground with them; they just want to gloat over the referendum result.

On top of this, they seem determined to crash out without a deal; the idea that we should enshrine the leave date in law is evidence of the lack of understanding about how business works and what the word 'negotiation' actually means.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 02:27 PM

There was an interesting letter in the Telegraph today. The basic premise was:

If a country which was a net recipient of EU funds (say 5 billion per annum) decided to leave the EU. Would the EU insist on paying them that 5 billion each year for a few years after they left?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:33 PM

Take that exact argument with you as a shop owner with a customer who owes you hundreds and a charity you give things to.

Then tell me you don't pursue the debt.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:51 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:33 PM

Take that exact argument with you as a shop owner with a customer who owes you hundreds and a charity you give things to.

Then tell me you don't pursue the debt.

Sorry. I can't see the reasoning (in that argument), if any.
The EU have not been able to show that we owe them anything.
Not surprising, as they are unable to provide any audited accounts over numerous years.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:58 PM

It was a very silly letter, Nigel. But thanks for the comedic intervention. Much appreciated!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 04:27 PM

Just wait a fortnight, Nigel. Then we can get back to whether my analogy has any relevance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 03:21 AM

"Sigh. They really don't get it."

We are getting far more comedy off remoaners!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 04:32 AM

Good one. You're a funny man.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 04:57 AM

Just saying how we find each other comical is not advancing the arguments much.

Andrew Marr was questioning John McDonnell on NI border, so it seems to be seeping in this might be an issue.

The BBC reported:

====
Mr Coveney (Eire Foreign Minister) added: "We simply don't see how we can avoid border infrastructure.

"Once standards change it creates differences between the two jurisdictions and a different rule book.

"When you have a different rule book you are starting to go down the route of having to have checks."

====

Since the UK assurance they don't want a hard border is clearly not enough to satisfy Eire, what else do Iains, Stanron, Nigel and others think we need to do to assess the border issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:34 AM

Border infrastructure (what a great way of putting it!) is unavoidable unless Ireland is allowed by the EU to be a special case and to break EU rules. We can make whatever border arrangements we like with other freestanding countries, but Ireland is in the EU and, quite rightly, can't override rules that apply to all the other member states. There's a mountain to climb in order to avoid most of the aspects of what a hard border would entail. I mean, what about the fact that they will be in a customs union that we no longer subscribe to? Leaving the border open for the free passage of goods, as now, would be seen as an outrage by other member states. Some of us worried about this before the referendum. What a pity the leave side swept it under the carpet. Yet another piece of their dishonesty. It was all going to be so easy, wasn't it? Such a simple decision to make!