BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 May 18 - 08:44 AM

Several posters over the past two years have highlighted the racism inherent in the Brexit vote. It would seem that they were correct all along and that "extreme views have gained ground in Britain since the vote"
We have seen some of those extreme views voiced on here

Try:
"Several posters over the past two years have highlighted their belief that there was racism inherent in the Brexit vote."
Several posters have also clearly stated an abhorrence of racism, while still believing that Brexit is the correct path for the UK.

That the "UN special rapporteur on racism", someone tasked with investigating racism, should find racism is hardly surprising. If it is your job to seek racism you are likely to be able to find it in any society.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 18 - 10:11 AM

That there were people who voted for racist reasons is almost inevitable as a matter of statistics. It is a matter of mathematics not belief.

That does not imply anything about any specific person who voted leave. But I recommend reading up on Bayes Theorem, which is part of the reason I think it more accurate to say 'there were people who voted for racist reasons' than 'I believe there were ...'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 18 - 10:58 AM

OK DMcG, but are you aware of anyone here who has voiced extreme racist views as claimed by Rag?

Let us try to keep the debate reasoned and rational.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 May 18 - 12:03 PM

Hoops DMcG Hoops

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 May 18 - 12:04 PM

Extreme hoops even !!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 18 - 12:38 PM

I don't think discussion that will do much to keep the debate reasoned and rational, Keith. Nor would it be about "post Brexit life.". I would rather discuss the two proposals and the hunt for a compromise. And if, as I guess, the leavers here think the May proposal is "cretinous" what will they think of any proposed compromise that incorporates part of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 18 - 01:29 PM

Dave Mc. I am so disappointed that you will not say anything against Rag's disgusting slur against other contributors.

I think that you being clear about that WOULD do much to keep the debate reasoned and rational, but yes it would embarrass someone on your side of the debate.
Very disappointing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 18 - 01:48 PM

If it is your job to seek racism you are likely to be able to find it in any society.

You mean if someone is tasked to find antisemitism in one party they are likely to find it and it they do not look elsewhere they will not find it elsewhere?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 18 - 01:51 PM

Then I am afraid I will have to disappoint you. We are talking value judgements here: what one person sees as innocuous another sees as racist/antisemitic. I think the proper response is not to say "Of course I wasn't racist(or antisemitic)" but to ask oneself "What was it about what I said that made people think that?". And that is not aimed at you, Keith, but at every one of us, all the time.

Which is why I think it a matter for "examining one's own conscience" rather than public calling out. And why I will confine myself to matters in the public domain rather than those between posters here.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 May 18 - 02:14 PM

DON'T. FEED. THE. TROLL.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 18 - 04:22 AM

We have seen some of those extreme (racist) views voiced on here.

No we have not.
That is a despicable slur on Mudcat members, and I for one am prepared to say that.

I also think that such insults get in the way of reasoned, rational debate, and has led to the decline in participation in these discussions.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 18 - 04:26 AM

A mixed bag from the Observer today.
One very good article about certain Brexiteers and one with a very misleading headline: One million students join calls for vote on Brexit deal.

Sorry, but no. A fairly small number of people at the top of organisations representing one million students join that call. It is certainly not the case that all one million agree.   The first paragraph of the article is accurate: "Student organisations representing almost a million young people studying at UK universities and colleges are today joining forces to demand a referendum on any final Brexit deal, amid growing fears that leaving the EU will have a disastrous effect on their future prospects." The headline writer was way off course.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 May 18 - 04:56 AM

Just a note gentlemen.

My comment of 12 MAY 05.00 am has been edited to include an additional word.

Deceitful and duplicitous and not at all untypical.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 May 18 - 10:37 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 13 May 18 - 04:56 AM
Just a note gentlemen.
My comment of 12 MAY 05.00 am has been edited to include an additional word.

What 'additional word' are you claiming has been added?
I only ask as, apart from the link at the end I have copy/pasted your exact wording less than 4 hours after you posted, and can see no difference between your original post, and what I quoted you as saying.
Or are you claiming that my post has also been edited?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 May 18 - 01:03 PM

Nigel, I really shouldn't have to do this, but my post read:

"We have seen some of those extreme views voiced on here."

It was then amended to read

"We have seen some of those extreme (racist) views voiced on here."

Deceitful, dishonest and duplicitous. Par for the course for the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 18 - 01:34 PM

Rag,
My comment of 12 MAY 05.00 am has been edited to include an additional word.

No it has not. The whole posts was quite clear that it was racism being described. The word "racist" was put in brackets, the conventional way to show that a word is added for context.

Do you stand by the claim in your post?
Do you claim it was some other "extreme views voiced" by contributors?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 May 18 - 01:38 PM

Hoops, Raggy, hoops.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 18 - 02:06 PM

No need for a response anyway, Raggy. It is well known that the trick of manipulating the words of others is just one of the tools of this deceitful, scheming individual. It has been demonstrated time and time again to the extent that even the moderation team have suggested just giving him a wide berth. Everyone knows it by now but to see it proven once more may convince more people to avoid any personal contact at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 May 18 - 07:28 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 13 May 18 - 01:03 PM
Nigel, I really shouldn't have to do this, but my post read:
"We have seen some of those extreme views voiced on here."
It was then amended to read
"We have seen some of those extreme (racist) views voiced on here."
Deceitful, dishonest and duplicitous. Par for the course for the troll.

Despite your claims, your post has NOT been amended. Someone may have misquoted it, but that does not affect what you originally said in your post. Anyone can look back at your post of 12 May 05:00 and see what you actually said.
My comment of 12 MAY 05.00 am has been edited to include an additional word.
If your post has been edited, it has obviously been changed back.
If your change has not been edited (only misquoted) I think you should retract your complaint!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 May 18 - 07:54 PM

Nigel, In the normal course of events if someone quotes from another poster they do so in full and without ad hoc additions or subtracts.

That is the accepted way, in normal discourse, to conduct these affairs.

By adding or subtracting words without clearly stating you have done so is deceitful, dishonest and duplicitous. Sadly that is what I am all to accustomed from certainly individuals.

To follow DtG's mantra ............ different language etc .....

You may have noticed I that have not directly responded to the individual in question for several months. I have no intention of doing so now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 May 18 - 03:36 AM

Different language indeed:
Just a note gentlemen.
My comment of 12 MAY 05.00 am has been edited to include an additional word.
Deceitful and duplicitous and not at all untypical.

"My comment has been edited" suggests that someone has 'edited' your post. This has clearly not happened, which you now seem to accept.
As to 'different language', mine is English.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 18 - 05:27 AM

Dave,
It is well known that the trick of manipulating the words of others is just one of the tools of this deceitful, scheming individual.

Nasty name calling and lies Dave. There was no deceit in my post. The only deceit was Rag's claim that extreme racist views have been posted here.

It has been demonstrated time and time again to the extent that even the moderation team have suggested just giving him a wide berth.

It has never been demonstrated at all Dave, and where have "the moderation team" given such a warning?

The dominant group here are pursuing a vendetta against me (hoops) for daring to challenge their extreme views with mainstream moderate ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 18 - 07:44 AM

I think it has been ably demonstrated that this topic would not assist any examination of life Post Brexit. Can I suggest we get back to that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 18 - 08:58 AM

DMcG, you should ask Rag to desist from making incendiary smears against other contributors.
Of course it provoked a response.

You appear to be criticising those who object to being smeared, while quietly condoning the provocation.

Subject: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 May 18 - 09:08 AM

I think it has been ably demonstrated that this topic can not provide any 'examination' of life Post Brexit.
All it can offer is dreams and aspirations (from Brexiteers)
or dire warnings and 'project fear' from remainers.

This thread was always going to take a long time to live up to its title.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 18 - 09:20 AM

I disagree Nigel, because the process of negotiation in itself defines the scope and opportunities of life Post Brexit so it is perfectly reasonable to discuss those on the period after the referendum vote up to, including and beyond the formal separation. Obviously we cannot discuss in detail and with precision what the situation will be in 20 years, say, but things we decide today influence it. And we can talk about those.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 May 18 - 09:35 AM

Interesting developments in the Commons today:

14:21
Lunchtime summary
A leader Conservative Brexiter, the MEP Daniel Hannan, has said that if MPs vote to keep the UK in the customs union, he would back a second Brexit referendum or a general election, to allow the public to have the final say. (See 1.16pm.) Generally Brexiters oppose a second referendum, and pressure for one is coming almost entirely from the remain camp, but Hannan’s words could be a sign that this may be starting to change.

This is an extract from the Guardians lunchtime summary,

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 May 18 - 09:44 AM

Another extract:

David Miliband gives his take on the Government’s position:

“We have no negotiating position on customs.
We have no negotiations position on regulatory oversight
We have no negotiating position on nuclear safeguards”
& 2 contradictory positions on Ireland

Which is much the same as many of us on Mudcat have been saying for over a year, just when is the Government going to show some leadership and start to clear up this debacle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 May 18 - 10:17 AM

Raggy, you're forgetting that 'Weer taking are cuntry back". We have 'dreams and aspirations' - no reason whatsoever to let facts spoil our guesswork and turn them into nightmares and regrets.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 18 - 12:19 PM

Nigel

Someone may have misquoted it

I guessed when you said you spoke English, you meant standard UK English. Is there some meaning of 'may' I am missing? There is no may about it. The misquote is there in black and white for all to see. What do you mean by they 'may' have misquoted it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 18 - 01:51 PM

Lunchtime summary
A leader Conservative Brexiter, the MEP Daniel Hannan, has said that if MPs vote to keep the UK in the customs union, he would back a second Brexit referendum or a general election, to allow the public to have the final say.

I think this is what is known in the trade as 'if the vote goes against you keep having another vote until you get the result you want.'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 03:44 AM

Yet more reports of on-going division within the Conservative party ranks with Teresa May attempting to exert some pressure on her MP's and not being kindly received by some.



Tory Dissent

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 May 18 - 03:53 AM

Dave: Is there some meaning of 'may' I am missing?
There may be. I believe that my usage of 'may' in this particular context was correct.
From The Macmillan dictionary
may . . . but: used when you agree that something is true, but you argue that this does not change the main fact that you are stating
The school may not be as good as it was, but it is still popular.


Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 18 - 03:58 AM

Allow me to beat you to it:
Different language, blah, blah, boring blah.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 18 - 03:59 AM

Christ on a bike.

No arguments about the issue so resort to syntax and obscure usage.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:09 AM

It's alright Dave, I would suggest they only bother about such things because they are unable to come up with any news reports that are favourable to Brexit.

No comment at all on my links of yesterday or today. I think that says it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:14 AM

From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 18 - 03:59 AM
Christ on a bike.
No arguments about the issue so resort to syntax and obscure usage.

Realise you're wrong, so come back with blasphemy?

Hardly obscure. I used the expression as standard English. I didn't go searching for some obscure usage just to confuse matters.
The fact that you didn't recognise the usage does not make it 'obscure'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:20 AM

Nigel, it is a simple fact that if you quote someone's post but add or subtract from it you have edited it. Very plain , very simple. My post was edited.

This is my final word on the subject, you can argue as much as you want but it will not alter the facts.

Now, anything positive to tell us about Brexit ...........

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:42 AM

The fact that you didn't recognise the usage does not make it 'obscure'.

Yes it does. If we do not come across it in everyday usage, it is obscure. Besides you are trying to dodge this issue as well. May still indicates a possibility whereas there is no possibility that is was not a misquote.

As to 'blasphemy'. Well, really hitting rock bottom here. Relying on ancient laws put in place to protect mythical beings. You are really showing your true colours now. Keep it up :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:51 AM

Rag,
No comment at all on my links of yesterday or today. I think that says it all.

It says nothing Rag, except about you.
You put up quotes of Remainers. Presumably you are aware that Leavers also make statements that people could quote if they wanted to.

You alone think that putting up quotes is somehow contributing to debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 04:58 AM

Nigel, Iains have you found any positive news reports about Brexit yet ............... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 May 18 - 05:41 AM

Nigel, Iains have you found any positive news reports about Brexit yet ............... ?

Yes, but as Brexit has not yet occurred it is pointless posting them here as they are not yet fait accompli.
Unlike all the doom and gloom promised by the remain camp which they assume will happen, despite having the pre-referendum 'project fear' lines conclusively disproved.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 05:47 AM

Go on, give us a clue. I can honestly say I have not seen one news report that has said anything positive about Brexit in a broad selection of press and media coverage both here, or in Ireland.

Actually, that's not strictly true. Some of the Irish media, and Government officials, have been rubbing their hand with the prospect of Banking and Financial Institutions relocating some of their operations there. Great news for Ireland but not for the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 May 18 - 05:55 AM

Go on, give us a clue. I can honestly say I have not seen one news report that has said anything positive about Brexit in a broad selection of press and media coverage both here, or in Ireland.

Actually, that's not strictly true. Some of the Irish media, and Government officials, have been rubbing their hand with the prospect of Banking and Financial Institutions relocating some of their operations there. Great news for Ireland but not for the UK.

An there, in a nutshell, we see the problem.
The remain side are happy to quote speculations as being news, and object that the Brexit side do not wish to do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 06:12 AM

That sounds distinctly like someone saying I cannot provide even one item that supports my belief that Brexit is a good thing.

In other words it's a cop out.

As some of my teachers used to write on my reports "Could do better"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 18 - 06:16 AM

The news is in the forecasts that predict economic problems for the UK after brexit. We know they are predictions and accept that they may not come to pass.

Feel free to post any forecasts that predict that things will be economically better. Please! We are just looking for anything positive and as yet failing.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 18 - 06:19 AM

I for one am quite happy to hear speculative news from the Brexit side as long as it is definite enough to be testable. "Company XYZ had confirmed all speculation they will move is unfounded. "We are committed to our base being in the UK whatever the final Brexit deal" said CEO Joe Bloggs" would be a perfectly acceptable quote in my book. Vague untestable things like "having control" are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 May 18 - 06:57 AM

New London HQ for Deutsche bank
Due for completion 2021.

Airbus to remain in UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 18 - 07:02 AM

Precisely, Nigel. You can do it if you try! Much more relevant than talking about grammar.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 18 - 07:12 AM

The location of the new office of Deutsche Bank in central London is potentially good news.

However, I do question whether this is at all related to Brexit. I also question were the all the profits will go, probably back to Germany.

The news that Airbus will remain in the UK is also good, however that again is not a gain due to Brexit it merely indicated that we haven't lost that work.