BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:35 PM

A far cry from the insidious right wing drivel spouted by you Keith.

A vacuous accusation with no basis in reality.
I am not right wing and have never spouted any such drivel.

Confident prediction- you will not produce any.

Personal attack you can do.
Justifying your vacuous whims you can not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:41 PM

Hoops, hoops and more hoops.

Any postive news from Brexit.

I'll not hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:42 PM

Happy to clarify, Nigel, as if I should need to. While I don't have the precise numbers, it's a pretty good bet that most people who voted Labour in the election also voted in the referendum. That supposition is strengthened by the fact that the turnout in the referendum was higher than in the election. Of course, there will have been a minority who voted in one but not the other. Ho hum. A minority. So, according to polls, a pretty sizeable majority of people who voted Labour in the election voted remain the year before. It's what pollsters ask people, Nigel. If you have a problem with that I'd suggest that you are being downright unreasonable. As for Labour Party members, I'd suggest (again, I haven't got the numbers, but do read on) that almost all the people committed enough to join the party, the vast bulk being pretty new members, not long-time sleepers, would have voted in the referendum. Polls taken since have suggested that 88-90% voted remain. Keep carping about this if you must, but I think I'll move on. Your only contribution to this discussion appears to be that you think brexit is "good news," though, naturally, you can't really expand on that, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:43 PM

I cannot put it more it any more simply than I did last time, Keith. Maybe you need to get someone to explain it to you. I am sure some of your 'friends' on here will help.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:52 PM

Oh yes, sorry Raggy. Keith can claim a victory there. Should make him happy, though I doubt it somehow. He managed to divert attention from the fact that there seems to be no good news being reported, even by the brectums at the Daily Heil.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 01:00 PM

IMF predictions of an immediate post-referendum recession failed to come to pass.

I know I will be accused of revisionism, and it is too late to get this straightened out, but believe or not the IMF did not make predictions of an immediate post-referendum recession. Bear with me! There WERE such predictions, but they were entirely the Remain campaigners abusing what the IMF actually said, which, if you read it, is stuffed to the gunnels with 'may's, and 'uncertainty' and 'a risk of' and every other indication that these were guidance figures, not some oracle saying what must inevitably come to pass. Which, naturally, is exactly the misleading way that the remain campaign decided to use it. I do not excuse the Remain camp for that. It is understandable because caveats are frowned on in campaigns, so a clear message is preferred even when is it a distortion, but it is still a stupid way of proceeding.

Why that matters is that the 'Chicken Little' analogy is not really applicable. It was heavily caveated last time (with the assumptions made and uncertainties listed), and the latest version is also caveated.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 01:40 PM

I did point that out before, DMcG. IIRC it was initially a claim made by Osbourne and then supported by his successor, Hammond. All nonsense of course and a perfect example of politicians manipulating genuine research for their own nefarious purposes. They were found out in this lie but people are still clinging to their nonsensical statements to massage the truth themselves.

What I do not understand is how some on here think they can continue doing it to deflect attention from the genuine concerns of the millions who think that leaving the EU is not a good idea. Even their chief brectum, BoJo, has recognised those concerns, leaving only Gove waving the experts know nothing flag.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 01:49 PM

The loony left cannot believe the official stance of the labour party is to support brexit. Thus far this is unchanged. There are a half dozen posters here seem reluctant to accept that self evident truth.
The conservatives follow the lead of St Thatcher of Stanley.
"The lady's not for turning. Clear,concise, unequivocal."

But Corbyn of the allotment is veering back and forth like headless chicken knowing full well that if he betrays the grass roots voters, then his ass will be grass. What a clown!

The news that just keeps on giving.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5408199/Corbyn-meets-team-hammer-Brexit-position.html
I see the no legged millipede of Corbyns alleged communist trangressions has picked up more legs
whoops

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 01:53 PM

So still no reports of anything positive being reported then, Iains? Surely there must be some?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 02:01 PM

Yes. My link confirms the official labour position is to support brexit. It is heartening to know both the major UK political parties support our departure from the EU.
Stunning news doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 02:08 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:42 PM
So, according to polls, a pretty sizeable majority of people who voted Labour in the election voted remain the year before. It's what pollsters ask people, Nigel. If you have a problem with that I'd suggest that you are being downright unreasonable.

Not unreasonable. How often recently have polls failed to predict the correct outcome.
It may be that polls have some inbuilt fallibility, or just that people give pollsters the answer they think the pollsters want, but then go on to vote in line with their true beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 02:12 PM

Shaw. "As for Labour Party members, I'd suggest (again, I haven't got the numbers, but do read on) that almost all the people committed enough to join the party, the vast bulk being pretty new members, not long-time sleepers, would have voted in the referendum. Polls taken since have suggested that 88-90% voted remain"

Well I have already presented the graphs for both brexit and the General election. It is all in glorious techicolour in a presentation even the Dandy and Beano readership could understand.
However
" So,(shaw) according to polls, a pretty sizeable majority of people who voted Labour in the election voted remain the year before. It's what pollsters ask people," It may be what the pollsters ask but it is not backed up by my pretty pictures.

Also the labour membership argument has already been kicked into touch. They comprise 1/2 million people on a sunny day. Not enough to swing a vote in a major city, let alone a country.
You talk piffle laddie, absolute piffle.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 02:45 PM

Also the labour membership argument has already been kicked into touch. They comprise 1/2 million people on a sunny day. Not enough to swing a vote in a major city, let alone a country.

Well, if an election does occur within the next year, it is worth remembering Amber Rudd has a majority of 346 and my Conservative MP a majority of 31. So here it only needs a fistful to vote differently. Impact is more about distribution than total.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 05:05 PM

DMcG.Should an election occur before brexit there would be a need for all the manifestos to be considerably more honest in precisely what they are offering. I know no remainer likes to discuss it but labour has a major split between the membership and the rank and file, especially in the old industrial heartlands. There is no point in the miniscule membership insisting that labour supports remain when deprived areas voted to leave.
Personally I expect this division, coupled with the invidious advance of momentum, to totally destroy the labour party.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O-wWZBqGaY

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 05:21 PM

Iains, why do you suggest that the remain movement is primarily a Labour party thing when it is this very split that is driving the Tory party apart? The brectums on the right are in a minority themselves yet are calling all the shots. A case of the tail wagging the dog if ever there was one.

And you still have not found anything positive have you?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:31 PM

Nigel, the polls, or surveys if you like, that are being discussed here apropos of Labour voters and Party members were not predictors. They were surveys of done deeds. I do hope you can see the difference. Now Iains, I'm a patient man. The fact that half a million Labour Party MEMBERS probably voted remain is not connected to the separate point that thirty-odd million people actually decided the result. I'm merely making the point that the official Labour position (which I lament but about which I am not in denial) is at odds with the sentiments of the majority of Labour voters in the country as a whole, insofar as it's reflected by the way they voted in the referendum, and is very much at odds with the sentiments of Labour Party members, also insofar as they voted in the referendum. That's all. Now, Nigel and Iains, please read that again slowly and carefully before you type even more daft stuff, there's a good pair of lads.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:56 PM

"There is no point in the miniscule [sic] membership insisting that labour supports remain when deprived areas voted to leave.
Personally I expect this division, coupled with the invidious advance of momentum, to totally destroy the labour party."

Well the membership isn't exactly minuscule. We don't "insist" that Labour supports remain, but a good number of us are trying to make the argument. "Deprived areas" is a broad brush. Certainly you can always find pockets of leave if you circumscribe chosen areas very precisely and tendentiously, but you simply can't argue with the fact that a sizeable majority of Labour voters, taking the country as a whole (which is precisely how the referendum result was measured), voted remain in the referendum. That's all. I don't care at all if you want to atomise the referendum result by area, but I remember how nasty you got when I suggested differentiating the result by age distribution. Funny, that. Your wish for the destruction of the party has oft been revisited by Tories down the decades. What I suggest you do is look carefully at the horrid rifts in your own party, which seem far more likely (though still not very likely) to cause it to self-destruct. I still feel that Labour is keeping its powder dry for now. Even I can live in hope.

By the way, the word you were looking for was "insidious."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 18 - 03:33 AM

Steve Shaw: I'm merely making the point that the official Labour position (which I lament but about which I am not in denial) is at odds with the sentiments of the majority of Labour voters in the country as a whole, insofar as it's reflected by the way they voted in the referendum
From that I read that you believe that the majority of labour voters favour remaining in the EU.

Dave the Gnome The brectums on the right are in a minority themselves yet are calling all the shots
This suggests that you believe the majority on the right favour remain.

If you are both correct it seems amazing that the country was able to vote to leave the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 18 - 03:51 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 02:45 PM

Well, if an election does occur within the next year, it is worth remembering Amber Rudd has a majority of 346 and my Conservative MP a majority of 31. So here it only needs a fistful to vote differently. Impact is more about distribution than total.

It is also worth remembering that there is a bias in the number of seats each of the two major parties would win with the same voting majority (equally spread). It is surely time for boundary changes which would give us constituencies of roughly equal size (by voter numbers). This would also allow the Conservatives to make good on plans to reduce the total number of constituencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 18 - 04:06 AM

This suggests that you believe the majority on the right favour remain.

They do!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 18 - 04:32 AM

Iains: Personally I expect this division, coupled with the invidious advance of momentum, to totally destroy the labour party.

Steve Shaw: By the way, the word you were looking for was "insidious."

I think Iains probably used the word he intended:
invidious: (of an action or situation) likely to arouse or incur resentment or anger in others.
Insidious: proceeding in a gradual, subtle way, but with very harmful effects.

It may be that Schoolmaster Shaw knows what Iains' intended meaning was better than Iains himself, but I very much doubt it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 03:50 AM

How do you know what he "probably" meant, and how will you ever know? As for me, I'm going from the context provided by his sentence. Insidious implies stealthily, gradually, sneakily, infiltratingly, underhandedly, reds under the bed.... that's what Mail-Tories like you and Iains generally neurotically invoke when we're talking about commies/Militant/Momentum, etc. So give over, Nigel. Insidious fits a hundred times better and you know it. He seemingly doesn't. Isn't this fun?

I bet Davis wishes he'd never said Mad Max... Anyone for a chicken that smells of bleach?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 03:56 AM

"We were wrong before when we predicted calamity, but you'd better believe us now because we believe we're right"
You miss the point Nigel, as did those Brexiteers who said on the day after the election result "look - the world hasn't come to an end"
Brexit has destabilised the economy, so whatever the situation may be at a given point, it is no longer under the control of those running the country, nor will it be for the next decade at least - that is the overwhelming prediction of all the the economic institutions.
No country, especially one that no longer has an industrial base, can possibly survive without bleeding its people dry though price rises, taxation and swingeing cuts - (already happening - look at the hospitals)
The claim was that Brexit would allow "Britain to stand on her own two feet" - a pretty useless gesture if she has no industrial legs to support her.
You choose to ignore the other points in my posting - why wouldn't you - they are undeniable facts?
Brexit was sold on a racist ticket - "it is all the faulty of those foreigners"
Now, it appears, even that promise can't be followed through and Britain will continue to have to take Europeans (at least) to continue benefiting from the E.U.
THe scapegoating racist card was the most unforgivable action on the part of the Brexiteers - it has opened up the floodgates to the extremist scum all over the Western World and beyond - a real "first" for Britain
I watched an extremely moving programme on THIS MAN last week
He was filmed in several European countries, showing how extremist racist fascism is now rampant once again - "a return to the old days" - in the words of this Holocaust survivor
Well done Brexiteers, you must be proud of yourselves
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:10 AM

Steve Shaw: By the way, the word you were looking for was "insidious."

Nigel: I think Iains probably used the word he intended:

Steve: How do you know what he "probably" meant, and how will you ever know?

At least I included the comment that I think he probably meant to use the word he actually used. This was certainly less strident than your assertion that he used the wrong word.

As for 'how will you ever know?', I would imagine that we'll get clarification from Iains at some point. But even if he confirms that he always intended to use 'invidious' I doubt that that will be enough to convince you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:43 AM

He fiddles with semantics while (the treaty of) Rome burns.

Still no positive news then? Don't give us that "it will be fine when it happens" guff. There are plenty of provable negatives right now but as yet, nothing good.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:57 AM

Labour lost a member yesterday. One Goldstein, expelled for anti-Semitism.

Rag,
Any postive news from Brexit.

It has not happened.
The benefits will come after it is achieved, and not even immediately after.

We are currently in a transitional period where uncertainty about the final deal inevitably makes people cautious.

The debate about Brexit is over.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:13 AM

Lindsey German,
"Chukka Umunna, Heidi Alexander, Alastair Campbell, are all leading the charge to reverse the democratic decision made in June 2016 and keep Britain in the EU. They are doing much better than they should be, ably assisted by the Guardian which dutifully reports 17,000 emails calling for Corbyn to effectively change his position on the single market and customs union. Out of a membership of 600,000 this isn’t exactly decisive, especially since email lobbying tools are fairly common."

"The other is to look at the reality which is the EU. It is not the antithesis of Brexit Britain, but an institution which is driving and reinforcing many of the problems across Europe, from the refugee crisis to worsening work conditions, to a growing militarism. While it is continuing to penalise Greece, it turns a blind eye to far-right politics in Poland and Hungary, and looks like endorsing the return of Silvio Berlusconi in next month’s Italian election.
It is exactly the politics put forward by Corbyn which can provide an alternative to the neoliberalism which dominates Europe. The EU leaders are united in opposing these politics and in doing everything they can to prevent them from succeeding."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:15 AM

Momentum = invidious = synonyms: unfair, unjust, discriminatory, iniquitous, weighted, one-sided; offensive, objectionable;deleterious, detrimental, unwarranted and so much more.
Simply delightful little fellows doncha think?

If twerp Shaw wishes to add insidious??? = proceeding in a gradual, subtle way, but with very harmful effects.Who am I to argue?
synonyms: stealthy, subtle, surreptitious, sneaking, cunning, crafty, Machiavellian, artful, guileful, sly, wily, tricky, slick, deceitful, deceptive, dishonest, underhand, backhanded, indirect; informalsneaky

Seems the laddie has an even more pisspoor opinion of momentum than myself.
Who would ever have believed that?

Are we talking semantics or petards here?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:36 AM

"Labour lost a member yesterday. One Goldstein, expelled for anti-Semitism."
Justy shows the farce of using ANTISEMITISM to defend State terror
The name is Greenstein, by the way Keith
Expelling Jewish opponents of the Israeli regime would be beyond a joke if this were true
Greenstein WAS NOT EXPELLED FOR ANTISEMITISM - THIS IS A TOTAL WITCH-HUNTING DISTORTION - HE WAS EXPELLED FOR CONTRAVENING THE LABOUR PARTY'S RULE 2.1.8 - ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR
Stop making things up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:44 AM

The benefits will come after it is achieved

Why are there no serious research results backing up this prediction then? No one has come up with any yet anyway. All the economic research done indicates that we will be worse off.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:51 AM

Well done Brexiteers, you must be proud of yourselves

It is not all things "bright and beautiful in the EU."
Uncontrolled immigration and populist sentiment is causing major problems and hardening of attitudes in Europe. The facade of false unity is gently cracking.


https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-europe-populist-right/

The march to Federalism and central control is finding a few pot holes along the road. Going to be some twisted ankles and broken legs if the holes get any deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:17 AM

Jim,
WAS NOT EXPELLED FOR ANTISEMITISM - THIS IS A TOTAL WITCH-HUNTING DISTORTION - HE WAS EXPELLED FOR CONTRAVENING THE LABOUR PARTY'S RULE 2.1.8 - ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR

Abusive to who Jim?
Mr Greenstein was accused of three breaches of Labour's rules.
These were; that he said Zionists had collaborated with the Nazis; that he described Zionism as "a Jewish version of anti-semitism"; that he had described the IRA's decision to target Margaret Thatcher as "obviously legitimate."

Dave,
Why are there no serious research results backing up this prediction then?

There has been no serious research on the consequences of the Brexit deal, because the deal has yet to be made.
There was serious research into the consequences of Britain joining EMU and the Eurozone, and they all proved wrong.

The Brexit debate has happened. Brexit will happen. No-one knows the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:29 AM

So, no one but the brectums believe there will be any benefits then. There has been no research into the consequences yet you still voted for it. Blind faith has a lot to answer for.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:37 AM

"Abusive to who Jim?"
To the right-wing Zionists who are now busy carrying out ethnic cleansing in Israel - "antisemitism" is denigrating the Jewish People
Whatever his faults, he can in no way be accused of doing that
It is not all things "bright and beautiful in the EU."
Nobody suggested it was Iains - on the contrary - the programme I referred to concentrated on what was happening in Europe
Brexit opened the doors to the rise of fascism by proving that a racist ticket was a sure-fire way of gaining support for divisive scapegoating policies.
Before the result, Austria gave the extreme right the boot - bow the fascists are gaining support everywhere
Pointing to Europe only underlines my point
Lat's be clear about the E.U. - all it is is a co-operative body of Capitalist States - nothing more
The only reason it has my support is that it is a stopgap measure to prevent a failing system from falling apart in such a manner as to make life even more unbearable for the various populations than they are already
For me, what happened in Greece is proof positive that it is in no way a panacea for all long-term ills.
There is also the added factor that member states are less likely to go to war with each other than are individual ones.
Short termism will have to do until a fair system comes along
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:44 AM

"There has been no serious research on the consequences of the Brexit deal, because the deal has yet to be made."

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

Right Lads, we're going to take this road, we don't know where it leads to, could be oblivion and complete hell, we don't really know, but we do want to take everyone else with us.

No we don't know if the Economy will suffer, no we don't know what will happen to unemployment figures, no we don't know what will happen to human rights, or the justice system, we don't know where we will buy goods, we don't even know who we will buy them from, we don't know who we will sell to or trade with but we believe this is the best path to take ......... what? evidence? Oh no we have no evidence to support this, no, no evidence at all but we know it is the best path.

Utterly, utterly naive.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:46 AM

By the way Keith - the Zionists did co-operate with the Nazis via the Haavara Agreement
The only question is whether they should have done
A JEWISH VIEW CAN BE FOUND HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:47 AM

So, no one but the brectums believe there will be any benefits then. There has been no research into the consequences yet you still voted for it. Blind faith has a lot to answer for.

In contrast, you, (I assume) voted to remain in the EU. Was this also in 'blind faith'? Or can you tell us of the 'research into the consequences' (of remaining) that you based your vote on?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:49 AM

Oh I forgot to mention the 58 impact assessments that were commissioned by David Davis or the impact assessments that were commissioned into the economy by Philip Hammond!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:59 AM

The remoaners think the EU is a fossil organisation with no possibility of change, either by agenda or external influences.
Anyone with a half brain cell recognises the absurdity of such a position.
Such naivety would be quite touching if it were not so dangerous.
This is the reason enfranchisement is restricted to adults. Sadly some adults can also be a naif.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 08:12 AM

Everyone happy with the UK stance on the transition set out in Parliament today and leaked yesterday?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 08:46 AM

In the post Brexit Nirvana that some would have us believe in we can look forward to this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 08:48 AM

Would help if I attached the link!!


Meat from the USA

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 08:56 AM

That looks to be a dead link (404)
Dead meat possibly?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 09:10 AM

For some reason the article will not link. It can be found in todays Guardian and makes very poor reading.

One of the joys we can look forward to, post Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 09:39 AM

Or can you tell us of the 'research into the consequences' (of remaining) that you based your vote on?

Funnily enough, Nigel, yes I can. Firstly, even without predictions, we can take it as a fact that we would have remained part of the largest mutual trading organisation in the word. My children and grandchildren would have remained free to live and work anywhere in Europe. The NHS and businesses would not have to worry about staff levels. And lots more facts before we even move on to, secondly, the predictions. As we know, they are all bleak. You cannot come up with a single piece of good news yet you still voted to leave in the vague hope that it will all turn out for the best. In the light of such 'reasoning' it is apparent that any further discussion is futile.

Here is another prediction though. You will continue nitpicking. Iains will be abusive and Keith will remain being, well, just Keith. None of you will come up with any research giving good news to allay the fears of those that wish to remain.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 09:50 AM

Here is the article from the Guardian in full, it is well worth taking the time to read it.


Shocking hygiene failings have been discovered in some of the US’s biggest meat plants, as a new analysis reveals that as many as 15% (one in seven) of the US population suffers from foodborne illnesses annually.

A joint investigation by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism (TBIJ) and the Guardian found that hygiene incidents are at numbers that experts described as “deeply worrying”.

US campaigners are calling once again for the closure of a legal loophole that allows meat with salmonella to be sold in the human supply chain, and also warn about the industry’s push to speed up production in the country’s meat plants. And UK campaigners warn that the UK could be flooded with “dirty meat” if a US trade deal is signed post-Brexit.


Animals farmed: welcome to our series
Read more
The unpublished US- government records highlight numerous specific incidents including:

Diseased poultry meat that had been condemned found in containers used to hold edible food products;
Pig carcasses piling up on the factory floor after an equipment breakdown, leading to contamination with grease, blood and other filth;
Meat destined for the human food chain found riddled with faecal matter and abscesses filled with pus;
High-power hoses being used to clean dirty floors next to working production lines containing food products;
Factory floors flooded with dirty water after drains became blocked by meat parts and other debris;
Dirty chicken, soiled with faeces or having been dropped on the floor, being put back on to the production line after being rinsed with dilute chlorine.
All of the reported breaches resulted in immediate remedial action with no risk posed to consumers, according to the companies involved.

But campaigners warned that other violations may go undetected. Tony Corbo, senior lobbyist with Food and Water Watch, said: “While the inspectors are able to cite the plants for hundreds of violations per week, I am confident that they are not catching every instance of unsafe practices being committed in these plants.”

Meat hygiene inspectors interviewed by the Guardian agreed, saying fast line speeds and other pressures in some plants meant it was “inevitable” that some breaches slipped through the net.

The findings are worrying, according to Prof Erik Millstone, a food safety expert at Sussex University, “because of the risks of spreading infectious pathogens from carcass to carcass, and between portions of meat. The rates at which outbreaks of infectious food poisoning occur in the US are significantly higher than in the UK, or the EU, and poor hygiene in the meat supply chain is [a] leading cause of food poisoning in the US.”

Black bacterial colonies of salmonella. Food poisoning outbreaks are much higher than in the UK.
Facebook Twitter Pinterest Black bacterial colonies of salmonella. Food poisoning outbreaks are much higher than in the UK. Photograph: Chansom Pantip/Getty Images/iStockphoto
The Bureau and the Guardian obtained previously unpublished documents relating to 47 meat plants across the US. Some of the documents relate to certain companies, including Pilgrim’s Pride, one of the US’s biggest poultry producers, and Swift Pork. Although not a comprehensive portrait of the sector - there are around 6,000 US plants regularly inspected by Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS) - the documents provide a snapshot of issues rarely detailed in public which has rung alarm bells with campaigners in both the US and UK.

“The US meat industry has a responsibility to clean up its act,” said David Wallinga, senior health officer at the Natural Resources Defence Council, which obtained some of the documents. He said the Pilgrim’s Pride records detailed “numerous food safety violations.”

Kerry McCarthy, former UK shadow environment minister and Labour MP, called for urgent reassurances from both the UK Food Standards Agency (FSA) and “the top of government” that standards would not be allowed to slip as trade negotiations with the US get underway.

“We cannot allow this to be a race to the bottom. We should insist the US raises its standards, and guarantees food safety, before we are prepared to allow in US meat imports,” she said. McCarthy has written to the environment secretary, Michael Gove, and Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to raise the matter.

The documents seen by the Bureau and Guardian do not reveal the full numbers of non-compliance reports across the whole sector. However, one dataset covering 13 large red meat and poultry plants over two years (2015-17) shows an average of more than 150 violations a week, and 15,000 violations over the entire period. Thousands of similar violations were recorded at 10 pork-producing plants over a five-year period up until 2016, further documents show.


Share your stories from inside the farming industry
Read more
Another batch of previously unpublished documents shows frequent failings at 24 plants operated by Pilgrim’s Pride who recently bought the British chicken giant Moy Park. The company slaughters 34 million birds each week and produces one in five of the chickens in the country.

More than 16,000 non-compliance reports on Pilgrim’s Pride operations detail 36,612 individual regulatory violations - an average of 1,464 a month - at the 24 plants during a 25-month period between 2014 and 2016.

Pilgrim’s Pride chickens on display at a supermarket.
Facebook Twitter Pinterest
Pilgrim’s Pride chickens on display at a supermarket. Photograph: Kristoffer Tripplaar / Alamy/Alamy
In one incident, diseased meat – condemned from entering the human food chain – was placed in a container meant for edible product. An inspector discovered “carcasses of poultry showing evidence of septicemic disease ... carcasses showing evidence of having died from other causes than slaughter ... guts of carcasses, [and] poultry carcasses with heads attached.” He requested that the condemned items be removed. A similar incident was recorded some days later.

One inspector saw chicken drumsticks piling up on the floor, and instructed workers to pick them up “to be reconditioned with chlorinated water.” Again, a similar incident had occurred previously. In another incident in a bagging department, 36 shrink-wrapped whole birds were found scattered on the floor. An inspector noted: “in my presence the establishments began initiating their corrective action by picking up all affected product off the floor ... to be carried to the establishment’s designated wash station to be thoroughly rinsed off.”

Red tape in the meat industry? It's the difference between life and death
Kath Dalmeny
Read more
Meat soiled with faecal matter was also recorded, with an inspector noting “... I observed a poultry intestine in the liver bin. The intestine was approximately 6.5 inches long and had visible faeces oozing out both ends.” The incident resulted in the livers being condemned from the human food chain.

At another Pilgrim’s Pride plant, the records reveal how deficient equipment led to a carcass becoming contaminated with faeces. “I observed one of my 10 test birds with a spot of faecal matter on the exterior of the right thigh. The spot of faecal [sic] was … brownish green in colour and had a pasty consistency,” an inspector notes. The affected bird was “retained by management for review then sent to reprocessing for reconditioning with chlorinated water.” Similar carcass contamination had been recorded before.

Internal FSIS records also highlight numerous violations at meat plants producing pork. In an incident recorded at a plant run by Swift Pork, owned by meat giant JBS, 48 pig carcasses were found to have fallen on the floor because of defective equipment, leading to contamination with “black trolley grease, floor grime and bloody smears”. The records noted: “The line was stopped for about 15 minutes. The carcasses were sent to be trimmed first then steam vacuumed with 180F water.”

On another occasion, an employee cleaned the factory floor with meat products on an adjacent conveyor belt, creating a mist that could contaminate the meat. “This mist is contaminated by the inedible debris and ... comes into contact with edible product,” an inspector observed.

Pigs are seen in a factory farm December 2003 in northern Missouri.
Facebook Twitter Pinterest Pigs are seen in a factory farm December 2003 in northern Missouri. Photograph: Daniel Pepper/Getty Images
In a separate incident, a pig’s head was found to have partially covered a drain, leading to “bloody waste water filling the area”. This and another blockage caused by a buildup of skin led to dirty water flooding other areas. “Because of the plugged drains, an insanitary condition was created; the bloody water in the walkway could be splashed and carried throughout the kill floor after employees walked through the puddle,” an inspector wrote.

In a different part of the factory, inspectors found a stainless steel handwash sink “plugged and approximately one-quarter full of standing bloody water with pieces of fat and meat. Production employees use this sink to clean and sanitise their hands and gloves. This creates an insanitary condition.”

In a statement, JBS, which owns Pilgrim’s and Swift Pork, said all of the violations recorded were “immediately addressed” and that consumers were never put at risk. “The US meat and poultry sector is one of the most highly regulated industries in America,” said Al Almanza, JBS’s global head of food safety and quality assurance, and former head of FSIS for 39 years. “Non-compliance reports are issued by USDA [United States Department of Agriculture] inspection personnel to document when an establishment has not met a specific regulatory requirement. However, the vast majority of non-compliance issues are addressed immediately and have no impact on food safety.”

“All of the documented incidents regarding JBS [Swift Pork] and Pilgrim’s were immediately addressed by our facilities. None of these incidents put anyone at risk or resulted in any adulterated product released into commerce. Food safety is achieved by implementing processes that consistently detect and correct issues before products are released into commerce. Our team at JBS and Pilgrim’s is committed to the highest food safety standards and we partner with USDA each and every day to ensure that consumers can enjoy safe and quality products with confidence.”

Salmonella and other foodborne illnesses
Advertisement

The US has shockingly high levels of foodborne illness, according to a new analysis by UK pressure group Sustain. It says that annually, around 14.7% (48 million people) of the US population is estimated to suffer from an illness, compared to around 1.5% (1 million) in the UK. In the US, 128,000 are hospitalised, and 3,000 die each year of foodborne diseases.

One bug, salmonella, causes around 1m illnesses per year in the US, while in the UK the numbers of officially recorded incidents is relatively low, with just under 10,000 laboratory confirmed cases in 2016. However, unreported incidents could substantially increase those numbers. Salmonella takes hold on farms and is found in the guts of poultry and livestock: farm animals and birds can become contaminated with faeces containing the bacteria during transport to abattoirs, where slaughter and processing procedures can also spread it.

Kath Dalmeny, chief executive of Sustain, said the figures underscored concerns about future US-UK trade deals: “The US has already warned us that we will need to lower our food standards in exchange for a quick trade deal, but we need to fight this hard. They are desperate to sell us their chlorine-washed chicken, but we know chlorine and other unpalatable treatments can mask dirty meat, low hygiene standards and poor animal welfare, which the UK consumer will not stand for.

“In recent years, the UK meat, dairy and egg industries have improved food safety; so we should all be alarmed about any trade deal that opens up our market to products that undermine this progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 10:30 AM

carrying out ethnic cleansing in Israel

The rate of growth of the Arab population of Israel - 3.4% on average per year - is one of the highest in the world, and is even higher than in neighboring Arab countries (for example, 2.8% in Syria and in Jordan and 2.1% in Egypt). In the Palestinian Authority, the rate of growth is even higher - 4.3% per year.

The life expectancy of Israeli Arabs is higher than in any Arab or Muslim country.

The question is what drives people to promulgate such invidious lies - I think the answer is plainly obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 11:21 AM

Take it elsewhere Bobad
Keith raised the false story - it's been dealt with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 11:25 AM

Keith raised the false story - it's been dealt with

No, Keith did not raise the lie of ethnic cleansing - that was you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 11:52 AM

Dave,
There has been no research into the consequences yet you still voted for it.

Not just me. Millions of us read all the dire predictions and decided it was still worth having.
The majority in fact.

Jim,
Brexit opened the doors to the rise of fascism

Read what the real hard Left activists like Lindsay German say about it.

"The other is to look at the reality which is the EU. It is not the antithesis of Brexit Britain, but an institution which is driving and reinforcing many of the problems across Europe, from the refugee crisis to worsening work conditions, to a growing militarism. While it is continuing to penalise Greece, it turns a blind eye to far-right politics in Poland and Hungary, and looks like endorsing the return of Silvio Berlusconi in next month?s Italian election.
It is exactly the politics put forward by Corbyn which can provide an alternative to the neoliberalism which dominates Europe. The EU leaders are united in opposing these politics and in doing everything they can to prevent them from succeeding."

Jim,
Daily mirror headline,
Labour party activist 'with history of noxious behaviour' expelled for using offensive anti-Semitic term "zio"