BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:33 PM

Bit like posting that Guido Fawkes is a trusted source you mean?

What has he been wrong about Dave?

Our imports from the EU are five times greater in monetary value than our imports from the US.

That is bad trade then Steve.

Our exports to the EU are two and a half times greater.

That reflects our big deficit with EU and big surplus with US, and US trade is growing while our EU trade is shrinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:32 PM

"Nigel" is not that difficult. If you choose to use 'Nigs' instead you should expect a response. Don't dish it out if you can't take it!"

I repeat, your attempt to insult me has no effect whatsoever, I can 'take it' - sticks and stones etc.

Might not be the case in your stamping ground, but where I'm from 'Nigs' is a friendly shortening of 'Nigel' just as, for instance, 'Terry" is the shortened, friendly version of Terence, or Steve is a friendly shortened version of Steven. I have friends called Nigel, everyone calls them Nigs. Just a standard thing, nobody gets their frillies wedged.

But, if you prefer the Sunday-name, I'll stick with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:08 PM

To illustrate:

No, Nigs, it suggests that there are those whose opinions differ from yours - are you trying to stifle opinions which differ from your own?
No, backwardsman, I am already aware that there are opinions contrary to my own. But to suggest I "read mark learn and inwardly digest them" when they are from such an unsupported source suggests you feel incapable of supporting your own views with facts. There are enough unsupported opinions on here, without trying to appeal to a 'higher authority' and thinking that Facebook is it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:06 PM

And, FYI, trying to insult me by calling me Backwardsman (with or without the upper-case 'B') has no effect on me whatsoever - Richard Bridge and several others beat you to it by a number of years. It says more about them and you than it does about me.
That was merely a response to your inability (shown in the post where I used the name) to use my proper name.
"Nigel" is not that difficult. If you choose to use 'Nigs' instead you should expect a response. Don't dish it out if you can't take it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:01 PM

" your rather insecure brexiteer agenda." More gormless twaddle.


The brexit agenda is very simple to understand for all but remainiacs.
The agenda is to leave the EU. If the EU have no serious wish to negotiate the exit will be hard. We have no need for a professional scientist/ ex teacher/union activist to peddle his quack analysis of the mental state of we brexiteers. Is insecurity supposed to add a certain gravitas to your whimsical musings? It seems to pop up as a frequent adjective amongst your innumerable musings. here are a few more words to consider to pad out your waffling:goorn

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM

Why should anyone not be permitted to put forward the opinions of third parties, if those people share those opinions? It's surely a given that someone who posts a third party's opinions does so precisely because they share those opinions - why are they any less valid just because someone else has published them in an on-line publication?

I'm perfectly happy for others to disagree with the fact-based opinions given in the article I linked to on the basis of their substance. But sneering at those opinions because of their means of publication, not because of their substance, really doesn't cut the mustard, does it?

So, instead of sneering at Facebook, tell us what doesn't hold water in the article, and why it's deficient.

And, FYI, trying to insult me by calling me Backwardsman (with or without the upper-case 'B') has no effect on me whatsoever - Richard Bridge and several others beat you to it by a number of years. It says more about them and you than it does about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 11:40 AM

Again, it's one man's opinion. I don't 'greatly admire' him, nor do I know why you believe that I should. Maybe you're too easily influenced.
I certainly wouldn't put forward his comments as something for each remainer to "read, mark, learn and inwardly digest" as you did for your earlier link.
Having an adult discussion means putting forward your own views, if necessary with the reasons behind them, not just quoting the opinions of a third party. They could do that for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 11:23 AM

Refusing to give concessions is not bullying behaviour. As a matter of fact, the UK government hasn't really presented anything that the EU can give concessions on. You want to say that the EU is bullying us because that suits your rather insecure brexiteer agenda. When you can't present facts in support, demonisation is the next best thing. We know how it works, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 11:10 AM

Here's an opinion from a pro-Brexit Facebook page, Nigel - no verifiable 'facts', just the opinion of one man (whom I'm guessing you admire greatly), on a policy agreed at The Chequers meeting, and published via a Facebook Page.

Do your lofty standards apply to the opinion on this Facebook page, exactly the way you applied them to the opinion given by AAV via the same organ - that no credence can be given to opinions on Facebook?

https://www.facebook.com/794492093982367/posts/1733026410128926/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:53 AM

No, not really Nigel. More of a concerned Mother trying to make her wayward son see sense ;-0

Subject: RE: BS: Kudos to the Queen
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:49 AM

During Tea with the Queen;

Liz: Mr. President you are a master.
Don: Thank you.
Liz: Master Trump, you have been a very naughty boy.
Don: ~;^[

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:41 AM

I don't want this to descend into "It isn't. 'Tis too" type of discussion, although schoolground argument types are more Steve Shaw's province than mine.

But this is exactly how the EU are acting. Insist on more and more concessions by UK without giving any themselves.

Of course, Steve may be able to show where EU have made concessions, but I very much doubt it. Just stating that "It isn't" doesn't really cut it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:34 AM

It isn't. You want it to so that you can say it does. You've forgotten that it's the UK who's the troublemaker in all this.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:26 AM

Dave,
I particularly like your comment (and the original line you're commenting on):

When it comes to bullies appeasement is a very poor idea, because once they see you caving in to their bullying behaviour to give them what they want, they're just going to use the same bully-boy tactics to demand more and more and more.

Opinion but based on sound psychology.

Have you considered that this is also how the EU is treating the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:10 AM

Lets look at the details of BWMs link.

One of Trump's favourite catchphrases when it comes to international trade is "America First", so any trade deal Trump does agree to will obviously benefit America and American businesses over Britain and British businesses.

Part fact, part opinion drawn from the fact but probably accurate.

Who actually wants our food and consumer standards trashed so the UK market can be opened up to sub-standard American food products like chlorinated chicken and hormone riddled beef (apart from rabidly right-wing Tory types)?

Well, does anyone want our food standards to be trashed? It is a question rather than an opinion.

One of the main Brextremist arguments is that Britain should quit the EU to pursue free trade deals across the world, but this free trade Brexit idea looks awfully stupid given that we're actually quitting the largest free trade zone on the planet in order to beg for a trade deal with by far the most protectionist US President in decades.

All factual.

The extreme-right and white-supremacist types who support Trump continually use the term "snowflake" to denigrate anyone who dares object to their abusive language and revolting policies (like Trump's child concentration camps), but now they're all crying like babies over a bloody protest balloon!

All factual apart from'crying like babies' line, which is exaggeration but I think we get the picture.

When it comes to bullies appeasement is a very poor idea, because once they see you caving in to their bullying behaviour to give them what they want, they're just going to use the same bully-boy tactics to demand more and more and more.

Opinion but based on sound psychology.

Appeasing extreme-right bullies on the international scene has already been tried.If you don't know what the photo is all about try searching "peace for our time".

Factual.

All in all a good summation. Mainly fact. Some sound opinion. Certainly as good as anything from Paul Staines.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:07 AM

or what Donuel means to say:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/trumps-trying-to-save-brexit-by-provoking-a-deep-state-coup-against-may/5647452

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 09:58 AM

Donald used his bored halting 5th grade voice as if reading a book report stolen from Wikipedia, to give left handed compliments to May like, May is a woman and is doing her best but Boris would be great.

He used the same tone describing the good people on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 09:54 AM

Neither.
They would be worthless as 'facts' because you are just quoting someone else's opinion.
If you wish to discuss matters in an adult fashion, why not try giving your own opinions, rather than linking to something as unreliable as Facebook.
And then suggesting we need to 'read mark learn and inwardly digest' those opinions suggests that you seem to consider them some kind of 'Holy writ'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 09:47 AM

So, are you saying that the opinions stated in the article are worthless per se! Or that they are worthless because they were stated on Facebook?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 09:42 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:55 AM
Just heard of Trump abusing May publicly

What did he say?
Did he insult her looks, or her posture?
Or did he comment on her policies?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 09:24 AM

No, Nigs, it suggests that there are those whose opinions differ from yours - are you trying to stifle opinions which differ from your own?
No, backwardsman, I am already aware that there are opinions contrary to my own. But to suggest I "read mark learn and inwardly digest them" when they are from such an unsupported source suggests you feel incapable of supporting your own views with facts. There are enough unsupported opinions on here, without trying to appeal to a 'higher authority' and thinking that Facebook is it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:55 AM

Just heard of Trump abusing May publicly
I wonder how the Little Brit Trumpites are going to put that particular square peg into its round hole
The bullying moron has now set his sights onBritish politics - prepare to be sick - very sick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:51 AM

"Suggesting we 'read, mark, learn an inwardly digest' something from Facebook suggests a complete inability to separate sources of facts from flights of fancy."

No, Nigs, it suggests that there are those whose opinions differ from yours - are you trying to stifle opinions which differ from your own? Aren't differing opinions the stuff of discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:28 AM

From the mighty press of Guido and to the dismay of remainiacs!


Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by BOJO?
                                                            REES MOGG?
                                                    Anyone but MAY !!


https://order-order.com/2018/07/12/whips-ask-mps-to-withdraw-letters-as-no-10-fear-theyre-approaching-48/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:18 AM

ONS

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:13 AM

ONS website.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:11 AM

Would that be waffle or whimsy? Without supporting evidence it could be either. Even Guido supplies irrefutable links.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:01 AM

Our imports from the EU are five times greater in monetary value than our imports from the US. Our exports to the EU are two and a half times greater. Comparisons which omit these statistics are not honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:01 AM

Bit like posting that Guido Fawkes is a trusted source you mean? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 07:35 AM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:33 AM
Absolutely spot-on Steve.
Brexiteers please read, mark, learn and inwardly digest...

Suggesting we 'read, mark, learn an inwardly digest' something from Facebook suggests a complete inability to separate sources of facts from flights of fancy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 07:34 AM

We already have a very healthy trade surplus with US. Our US trade is second only to whole EU, and US trade is growing.

Our trade with EU is in deficit and is shrinking.

US will benefit from free trade with us. We will too. Win, win.

Does anyone here support the deal proposed by May?
No. We are all agreed on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:53 AM

Welcome to the real Donald Trump. The schism between Obama and Trump is that Obama was dead wrong when he said Trump has no ideology. Where that ideology comes from is most likely Bannon and the writings of Hitler.
Trump is a tool of Vladimir Putin. Any other explanation is short sighted and is as small as Donald's hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:33 AM

Absolutely spot-on Steve.

Brexiteers please read, mark, learn and inwardly digest...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:28 AM

Let's get real. Trump doesn't care a tuppenny fart for what kind of trade deal we'll get with him. He's completely untrustworthy. Anyone who sees a brave new world of a non-EU UK having a spiffin' trade deal under ANY exit terms at all with Trump is (tick the answer*) A. living in cloud cuckoo land, B. living on another planet, C. away with the fairies, D. feeble-minded.






*The correct answer is all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:47 AM

Obama said they would block a trade deal if we left.
As soon as he got in Trump said we will be at the front of the queue for one when we do leave.
That is in both nation's interest. What objection does anyone have?
None I am sure. We are all in agreement.

He now says that it can not be done if we are confined by EU rules as in the white paper. That alone is reason to bin it. Labour wants to bin it too so who here supports the white paper?
No-one. We are all in agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:26 AM

"So in the short time between two presidents the US' interests have changed from keeping us in the EU, to getting us to make a clean break?"
Apr 22, 2016 - Obama: UK would be 'back of queue' for trade talks if it left EU. Note this is before the referendum(June 23rd 2016) It could also be regarded as direct unwarranted interference in the british referendum by undue American influence, unlike all the false news reports of "reds in the bed"

By contrast Trump makes a pragmatic statement contrasting Trade had Brexit been as promised and trade as would be the reality with the brexit betrayal being proposed.

Note one president offered speculation before the referendum the other commented on the contrasting realities after the referendum.   

A totally different set of circumstances!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:25 AM

Just to remind everyone, Dave's original point was about the press reaction to a US president interfering in UK politics.

Thanks for the reminder. The original (rhetorical) question was:
I wonder where all the people are, including the arse-wipe media, that were railing against Obama when he suggested that Brexit would not be a wise move? How come they are not screaming and shouting about US interference in UK policy now?
In answer to the question as posed, I would imagine the people and newspapers are roughly where they were then.

If you intended to ask why there was not the same outrage to the intervention, I believe I answered that already:
Obama's intervention was in support of what the government of the day wanted (some have even said it was specifically requested by someone within the government).
Trump's intervention is in support of what the people of the UK voted (by majority) for, and does not sit well with the intentions of the current government.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:17 AM

I will elaborate, then, Nigel. Simplifying somewhat, both president's want the maximum US benefit from their trade deals. Obama's view was to deal with the biggest deals first, which puts the UK somewhat towards the back - not the absolute back of course, but fairly low priority compared to the other deals they were/are seeking.

Trump sees a bigger advantage in having the UK separate from the EU and desparate for a deal at almost any price.

Same objective, different strategies. And all about US interests, not UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:14 AM

"What he seems to be saying is that if UK retains its links to, and the restrictions imposed on trade by, the EU, then a new trade deal between UK/USA would not be feasible."

Well I don't care. We do far more trade with the EU than we do, and will ever do, with the US, and it will ever be thus. And we won't have to lower our standards to align ourselves with the lower US standards in many regards. I'd really like someone to tell me, without using that hopeful and rather empty word "opportunities," how a patchy plethora of little trade deals all over the non-EU world, each one involving a tiny proportion of our overall trade, will ever be better than what we have now. And we'll still trade with the EU, but under far more disadvantageous conditions. Take your time now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:05 AM

That is a gap between Obama & Trump. I was responding to the claim that each was defending the US' interests. Surely those remain the same, although the two presidents may not have the same view of them. So my question is still valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:03 AM

So in the short time between two presidents the US' interests have changed from keeping us in the EU, to getting us to make a clean break?

More accurately what the Presidents believe to be in the best US interests has changed. That's not surprising at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:03 AM

...and thank you for the reminder, DMcG. You would have thought it superfluous considering the timescale but it seems you were right to provide it!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:00 AM

So in the short time between two presidents the US' interests have changed from keeping us in the EU, to getting us to make a clean break?

While it may be chronologically short there is a massive gap between Obama and Trump. Yes, the interests have changed that much.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 04:57 AM

It is also worth remembering the President's role is to further US interests. Forget any illusions about them being deeply concerned about UK interests independently of US interests.
So in the short time between two presidents the US' interests have changed from keeping us in the EU, to getting us to make a clean break?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 04:30 AM

Just to remind everyone, Dave's original point was about the press reaction to a US president interfering in UK politics.

Not whether you agreed with what the President said.

It is also worth remembering the President's role is to further US interests. Forget any illusions about them being deeply concerned about UK interests independently of US interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 04:14 AM

Obama. Severing connections with Europe would make a trade deal difficult.

No. He said they would choose to keep us waiting, and his intervention was during an election campaign.

Trump. Keeping connections with Europe would make a trade deal difficult.

No. He has said a trade deal with us was wanted and welcome but it could not be done within the parameters of the white paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 04:08 AM

Obama. Severing connections with Europe would make a trade deal difficult.

Trump. Keeping connections with Europe would make a trade deal difficult.

One of these statements is the US interfering in UK politics.

The other is the US helping the UK electorate.

You couldn't make this stuff up...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:59 AM

And, of course, it's the politics of the school playground - "If your their friend, you can't be my friend"!

No, that would be a childish reaction. What he seems to be saying is that if UK retains its links to, and the restrictions imposed on trade by, the EU, then a new trade deal between UK/USA would not be feasible.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:57 AM

How come they are not screaming and shouting about US interference in UK policy now?

Because we are not engaged in an election campaign as we were when Obama tried to influence the outcome.
Obama said that they would put us at the back of the queue for a trade deal if we did not do what he said.
Trump has said we would be at the front of the queue but now points out that the white paper version of Brexit would make a trade deal impossible. We needed to know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:41 AM

Nigel that is a very significant point you make. Thank you!