BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:11 AM

Good summary Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:03 AM

while i agree with pete aberdeen, there is a certain irony here,europe has been taken over and run by germany partly due to the disgusting friend of jimmy saville, ted heath.however for any prime minister[cameron] to offer a referendum to the people without a back up plan, is irresponsible and idiotic

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:06 AM

Nice to see that many people understand that benefits are not purely financial. Thanks for the support and for restoring my faith in human nature. Good to know that most people are not short sighted, money grabbing xenophobes!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:21 AM

Of course there are benefits to membership or there would be no EU, but a majority of UK voters decided that for us they were insufficient.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:25 AM

Nice to see that many people understand that benefits are not purely financial. Thanks for the support and for restoring my faith in human nature. Good to know that most people are not short sighted, money grabbing xenophobes!

Now if only we could get an acceptance that, similarly, the benefits of leaving do not have to be purely financial we might be getting somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM

SPB-cooperator - that is an eloquent, well reasoned statement of the reasons why Brexit is the pile of excrement it truly is.

Sadly, it's probably beyond the comprehension of the Daily Mail readers, brainwashed ex-squaddies, and other sundry feeble-minded and propagandised sheeple around here but, as DtG says, it restores faith that there are still decent, fair minded people around.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:35 AM

Now if only we could get an acceptance that, similarly, the benefits of leaving do not have to be purely financial we might be getting somewhere

I have always fully accepted that but, to date, no one has given us a decent, valid study on what those benefits may be. Are you going to surprise us all and provide one now, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:48 AM

Dave, we had a national debate about all the pros and cons, remember?
Backwoodsman, why would you even want to talk to such people? That is beyond comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 04:49 AM


I have always fully accepted that but, to date, no one has given us a decent, valid study on what those benefits may be. Are you going to surprise us all and provide one now, Nigel?

Hoops!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:05 AM

"The benefits of leaving do not have to be purely financial we might be getting somewhere."
As the main selling point of Brexit was aimed at getting rid of immigrants, most decent people don't regard that as a "benefit"
The sharp rise in racist incidents immediately following the decision was evidence that this was an effective argument.
Should Britain have to crash out of Europe, as seems possible, one of the first 'benefits' will be having to come with the possible enforced return of the million plus Brits now living in Europe, thirty two thousand of them now drawing hardship and unemployment benefit on the continent
Only one of Farage's Feeble Minded could regard that as a satisfactory exchange for the immigrants prevented from settling in Britain.
Trump's trade war is hardly likely to benefit Britain
Isn't it about time you started to explain what these 'other' benefits will ever be should this particular 'Pie-in-the Sky' ever get baked?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:16 AM

Now if only we could get an acceptance that, similarly, the benefits of leaving do not have to be purely financial we might be getting somewhere

I have always fully accepted that but, to date, no one has given us a decent, valid study on what those benefits may be. Are you going to surprise us all and provide one now, Nigel?

As Keith points out, these were discussed at the time of the referendum (together with lies and exaggerations from both sides of the discussion)these are not complete, but they include:
Regaining control of our own borders. This allows us to control immigration. It is not xenophobic as it is not an attempt to stop all immigration.
Regaining control of our laws.
Regain control of our trading arrangements, allowing us to make trade deals with other countries without needing to add tariffs intended to protect the interests of French farmers (among others).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:29 AM

Thank you, Nigel. I may believe that those benefits are outweighed by what we lose but at least you have made the effort and I appreciate that. Sadly, while the losses are quantified by the various studies linked in this thread the benefits do not seem to have been subjected to the same scrutiny. I find that rather disturbing and would be happier if they could be quantified by more than sticking a set finger in the air. Hence the ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:33 AM

The losses may have been 'quantified' by studies, but they are still not based on a knowledge of what conditions will prevail when we leave, so are effectively guesswork. I have consistently avoided taking that same approach.
We know there were studies before the referendum took place as well, and look at those when compared to the actual happenings since.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:36 AM

Stanron. Hoops are those things that are held higher and higher every time one is jumped through. If you think a single request for substantiation is a hoop, you have got the wrong end of the stick. Had you have provided any information I would have been quite happy and left it at that. Not so much a hoop as a doorstep but you seem to have tripped over that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:46 AM

Guesswork it may well be Nigel but, judging by the consistency of the findings, it seems to be very accurate. I would trust it over blind optimism but you already know that. What has been happening here is that every time a new study predicts an output it has been negative. There has not been a single study that predicts a positive outcome. Not a one. I find that disturbing and no amount of saying it'll be alright on the night will help to allay those fears. Surely you can understand that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:50 AM

Strange how some here insist on future events being quantified. I wonder what method of divination they prefer. Studying entrails is a bit iffy in the present temperatures. Probably equally as iffy as all these reports they keep quoting. I would have thought the gross errors of recent polls would have made a moderately well educated person very wary of such beasts.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:56 AM

"Regaining control of our own borders." which we have always had unless all those staff, passport checks and security machines than my new hips always set off are really cardboard cut-outs!!
This and never has been "uncontrolled immigration - a xenophobic myth - freedom to move is a two-way street - close it down and you close the whole street
Likewise our laws - human rights is a different matter and needs to be international
We have continued to trade with countries outside the Union - we fill our shops with goods from Third World Countries whose slave-labour conditions benefit us
You choose to ignore the fact that Trump's tariffs are likely to effect Britain as adversely as they are anybody else
In Europe, we can negotiate on tariffs - try negotiating with Don the demic dope-head
These are mythical makie-ups to disguise the real reason for leaving
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 06:02 AM

By the way
Good political and economic governance is based on planning for the future - not "reading the entrails" - it is why the business community via its journals are panicking because they are no longer able to do this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 06:29 AM

Anyone with half a brain plans for the upside and downside. Your argument is flawed.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 06:31 AM

"Regaining control of our own borders." which we have always had unless all those staff, passport checks and security machines than my new hips always set off are really cardboard cut-outs!!
This and never has been "uncontrolled immigration - a xenophobic myth - freedom to move is a two-way street - close it down and you close the whole street
Those border checks allow us to identify those who do not have the right of entry to UK.
At present, all EU passport holders have the right of entry, we have no control over how many we are prepared to let in.

Immigration control was not the sole reason for Brexit, although you continually claim that it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 06:40 AM

We have continued to trade with countries outside the Union - we fill our shops with goods from Third World Countries whose slave-labour conditions benefit us
You choose to ignore the fact that Trump's tariffs are likely to effect Britain as adversely as they are anybody else
In Europe, we can negotiate on tariffs - try negotiating with Don the demic dope-head

We buy food from third world countries at prices which are artificially inflated by the tariffs imposed by the EU.
"Trump's tariffs" will affect Britain. Yes, they already do, and will do so whether or not we are part of EU. But if they were imposed to punish EU (they weren't imposed on Australia) then maybe we could negotiate different treatment if we were not part of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 06:46 AM

One non-financial benefit of leaving will be to remove tariff barriers from poor countries eager to sell their produce to us.
Poor farmworkers will see their lives improved.

Jim, "getting rid of immigrants" was never a Leave argument.
Leave just advocated a fairer system that did not racially discriminate against non-Europeans.
No-one advocated an end to immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 08:32 AM

I would understand perfectly if you do not want to respond until Saturday but rumour has it that the proposal due out will be at the softer end of Brexit: you may be much more under the ECJ rules than many leavers would like. As I say "wait and see what happens" is a fair response, but I wonder if that would cross personal red lines for Brexiteers here, given what some of the benefits you see of leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 08:39 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 08:41 AM

HOW TO BE NOT ABOUT GETTING RID OF IMMIGRANTS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 08:43 AM

If we are not allowed to trade freely, we have not really left.
If we are still subject to EU regulations, we have not left.
I am sure a large proportion of the population will find that unacceptable, but what can you do against the vested interest of the ruling elite? They always get what they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 08:48 AM

Nigel, the corollary of what you say is that, at present, UK passport holders have the right of entry to any EU country. This is an important and highly valuable right, far more important in my view than keeping EU citizens out. This is what makes us so angry, me anyway, to have this right taken away by people too lazy to make use of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 09:15 AM

David,
If you believe that Brexit will prevent you visiting other EU countries, I trust that you will be pleasantly surprised by the outcome. You may be prevented from settling in other EU countries, but that is a different matter entirely.
You seem to think that to have this right taken away by people too lazy to make use of it only those who never travel abroad have voted Brexit. In my case, and I would assume for millions of others, this is just not true.
I have visited much of Euprope, both recently, and before we joined the 'Common Market'. Getting in to Europe was no harder pre the common market than it is now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 09:23 AM

How true it is remains to be seen, but while visiting the country is not likely to be an issue, working in it might be. Sending engineers to service parts in other countries is one of the things Airbus raised. It is also one of the things the EU raises because for things like engines, product, maintenance and training are intimately linked, Hence the. EUare very reluctant to separate goods and services. A right to work in other countries doesn't just apply to those who want to live there for years; it also applies to people going for a few days on business.

Of course, sensible negotiation could sort that out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 09:43 AM

Incidentally
"Poor farmworkers will see their lives improved."
Utter and complete bollocks
Britain has never shown the slightest interest in the lives of the people of countries we trade with
All we are interested is being able to buy goods from countries with non-existent safety standards and below survival-level wages in order to get tham as cheaply as possible -
SEE PRIMARK as an example
OR PENNEYS
OR THE REST

You must be referring to The Planet Zog
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 09:52 AM

I spent decades working outside the EU with no problems. If the EU wishes to insist on visas we can easily reciprocate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_United_Kingdom

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 09:53 AM

It's not just that, Jim, it's the hidden costs that these people tend to ignore. If I buy something manufactured in the EU it may be a bit more expensive than something from China or Mexico but the ecological costs of getting it here from halfway round the world seems to escape the brexiteers. Or maybe it doesn't and they just don't care.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 10:45 AM

Britain has never shown the slightest interest in the lives of the people of countries we trade with

Even if that were true, they will be able to sell their produce in our market without tariff barriers against them. That will improve their lives.

Wiki, "The fair trade movement is popular in the UK, where there are 500 Fairtrade towns, 118 universities, over 6,000 churches, and over 4,000 UK schools registered in the Fairtrade Schools Scheme"

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 10:49 AM

The fact that many out of season fruit and vegetables fly halfway round the world and rare earths in virtually every electronic device are mined in China(80%) seems to totally escape the remainiacs, or perhaps they just do not care.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 10:49 AM

something manufactured in the EU it may be a bit more expensive than something from China or Mexico but the ecological costs of getting it here from halfway round the world seems to escape the brexiteers

That is just bollocks Dave. Compared to the "ecological damage" caused by intensive EU farming that is just a pin prick. Not even that!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 10:57 AM

"If the EU wishes to insist on visas we can easily reciprocate."
Love to be there when that happens while we're telling the Poles to piss of and stop taking our jobs and women
Somewhat 'having you cake and eating it'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 11:41 AM

UK has guaranteed the right to remain for all EU citizens here.
The EU has refused to reciprocate, preferring to keep our citizens as future bargaining counters.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 12:29 PM

The UK has done no such thing. They have guaranteed them the right to apply.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 01:08 PM

BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 01:10 PM

The thing about controlling immigration aka the power to decide who can and can't live in the UK panders to the whims of the powers that be to determine who does/doesn't meet the criteria they choose to apply.

There are already issues with people in the UK in relationships outside the UK, even married couples, as the policies favour people who are higher earners, based on an arbitrary amount? There has been no guarantee that this will not apply to anyone in a partnership with someone form the EU - now and in the future.

What gives any government the right to dictate who an individual is allowed to live together in a relationship with - I am not talking about marriages of convenience but real loving relationships.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 01:22 PM

Facts: With the caveat nothing is agreed until all is agreed



https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/joint_report.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 01:55 PM

BBC,
"She (Theresa May) has insisted that no EU national currently resident in the UK would have to leave at the point of Brexit and that people will be treated the same irrespective of their nationality.
The main feature is the offer of "settled status" for EU citizens, as well of nationals of Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland, who have been living legally and continuously in the UK for at least five years"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40379663

Yes they will have to apply for it, but all EU citizens qualify.
No such reassurance has been offerd to UK citizens in EU. Nothing for them to apply for.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 02:06 PM

there are some who have already left. others been told to go. our daughter lives in estonia with her partner and knows that as they don't earn enough they won't be able to come here so she has applied for estonian citizenship. if anyone is tempted to trust our government to deal with immigration policy sensibly or fairly - look at the windrush situation, or the people being detained or sent back to their countries of origin to face persecution and worse. the present government are not only incompetent but cruel beyond belief. no wonder they want to escape their responsibilities by getting out of their human rights obligations.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 02:51 PM

They are really clutching at straws now.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:01 PM

Theresa May "insisting" and a legally binding commitment are different things.

Many UK citizens in the EU can apply for citizenship of the countries they reside in. In Germany if they have been resident for 8 years. Not "settled status", full citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 12:34 AM

By the way
Good political and economic governance is based on planning for the future - not "reading the entrails"' correct, thatis why Cakerons political gamble was idiotic

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 04:20 AM

Many UK citizens in the EU can apply for citizenship of the countries they reside in.

That changes when we leave. They have yet to say what will happen to UK folk then.

thatis why Cakerons political gamble was idiotic

All the parties offered a referendum because UKIP did, and they might have won the general election as they did the European election. That was the gamble.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 04:43 AM

it was an irresponsible gamble, no responsible politician should offer such a plan when there was no idea how to implement it, it exposes a politician [cameron] who does not have interest of the nation but only has the interest of getting votes for himself and his party. cmron is a millionaire [who has an im alright jack attitude] so much for patriotism ,what kind of patriot is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 04:46 AM

Lib Dems and Labour made the same offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 10:33 AM

Today it is reported that both the British Chamber of Commerce and the Professional and Business Services Council have expressed their frustration at the complete lack of clarity regarding Brexit that has come from the government so far. (could some provide a link to todays Business pages of the Guardian)

Two years down the line and we still do not know how Brexit will affects us. The only forecast have been extremely negative.

Anyone got any goo...................

Don't bother I know you haven't