BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM

We have had 2600 posts to this thread and I cannot recall a single post that has contained any good news.

Perhaps those on the leave side could provide some ...............................


.......... even one or two would help.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 07:13 PM

Well fancy that. One of Keith's men making Naz Shah and Ken Livingstone looking positively saintly!

No good news on this thread? We need a cake recipe, and fast!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 02:41 AM

Kenny B - Auf Dem Boden, Lacht Mein Arsch Aus!

ADBLMAA isn't quite as catchy as ROTFLMAO though, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 02:53 AM

Well, there is some good news, even if it didn't make the thread earlier.

I am not saying that in an attempt to reverse the vote. What it means is the 'meaningful vote' can genuinely be meaningful, and what is more that vote could be unifying in a way that has escaped us up to now. If David Davis' team do manage to achieve something that is genuinely a good deal, the House can vote it so and most - by no means all, but most - remainers would be happy.   Equally, we have got rid of the take it or 'no deal' as the only options, so Parliament can decide to no deal or to stay based on whichever is the best interests of the country.

In short, the 'meaningful vote' allows us to move from a simple 'the people (who voted)said this, so we must do it even if we believe it damaging' to 'we have done everything possible to abide by that vote; now we act solely on what is in the best interests of the country'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 03:44 AM

We have had 2600 posts to this thread and I cannot recall a single post that has contained any good news.
Perhaps those on the leave side could provide some ...............................
.......... even one or two would help.

The problem is two-fold:
Firstly: What we would consider as 'good news' you may not.
Secondly: The good news cannot really be claimed until it is accomplished, and that will not be until we have completed the negotiation period, and either come to an agreement, or not.

Basically, Good news:
We are getting out of the EU.
We will take back control of our internationally agreed fishing grounds
We will not be expected to join the Euro
We will not expected to become part of a European army
We will massively reduce the payments we make to the EU.
We will show that democracy (literally: rule of the people) still exists
We will be free to trade with other nations without imposing a standardised list of tariffs intended to be protectionist of European interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:06 AM

We are getting out of the EU.
And losing all the benefits.

We will take back control of our internationally agreed fishing grounds
That's odd. We have just taken an 'historic step' to withdraw from international fishing agreement

We will not be expected to join the Euro
We never were anyway

We will not expected to become part of a European army
We never were anyway

We will massively reduce the payments we make to the EU.
See point 1. They could have been renogotiated from within anyway.

We will show that democracy (literally: rule of the people) still exists
It never went away.

We will be free to trade with other nations without imposing a standardised list of tariffs intended to be protectionist of European interests.
And buy sub-standard food and goods not subject to the controls we are used to.

Basically, a load of ...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:24 AM

DMcG,
So, Keith, am I to assume you disagree with Nigel and I that Boris' statement "is not a promise to give any prioritisation at all to the NHS."?

It is not such a promise, as you observed.
You may disagree with what he said, and it may prove not to be true, but there is nothing of the weasel in it. Dave made that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:24 AM

Firstly: What we would consider as 'good news' you may not.
Secondly: The good news cannot really be claimed until it is accomplished, and that will not be until we have completed the negotiation period, and either come to an agreement, or not.

I agree with that. There is a lot of subjective judgement on that on both sides.


Basically, Good news:
We are getting out of the EU. ... too general to attach much meaning. It is not in itself good or bad, it is all the detail that matters.


We will take back control of our internationally agreed fishing grounds
This is a very interesting one. It may or may not happen, but it is no simple matter. We have severely depleted our fishing fleets and the supporting facilities and it will take years to build them back up again. That could give us big problems in the meantime as we are talking investment with no short term return.



We will not be expected to join the Euro
... not an issue, we are opted out.

We will not expected to become part of a European army
... not an issue. We have a veto. And losing that veto makes an EU army more likely, not less.


We will massively reduce the payments we make to the EU. This one very much remains to be seen. Norway, I gather, pays more per capita for access to the market than we do. All the bluster about not paying anything at all have evaporated during the negotiations.
We will show that democracy (literally: rule of the people) still exists
Perhaps. Not that I am convinced it ever existed in the UK - hence the reform Acts, for example.   Our system is representative democracy, not plebiscite.


We will be free to trade with other nations without imposing a standardised list of tariffs intended to be protectionist of European interests
Again perhaps. One thing that people seem to overlook is that any trade agreement involves sacrificing some freedom in exchange for what as seen as a greater benefit. To take an utterly trivial example: The UK power supply runs at 50Hz (more or less) as does almost all the rest of the world. Having the freedom to run it at 100Hz is technically there, but we voluntarily relinquish it in the interests of getting access to all the world's equipment that is designed for the 50Hz. And such things happen in just about every international agreement to promise to do (or not do) certain things in exchange for benefits. The EU tariffs are an example of that: by co-operating at that level we believed be got greater benefits. Perhaps we no longer think that is the case, but it is a judgement, not a 'given', especially as we will have to sacrifice some degree of freedom to set up the new deals. They might, like the frequency of the power supply, be things we can 'sacrifice' without worrying very much. But it all remains to be seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM

I have tried English. I have tried German. This time I will try the most basic language I can think of.

Keith. Fuck off.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:52 AM

So, Keith, am I to assume you disagree with Nigel and I that Boris' statement "is not a promise to give any prioritisation at all to the NHS."?

It is not such a promise, as you observed.
You may disagree with what he said, and it may prove not to be true, but there is nothing of the weasel in it. Dave made that up

That's clear. So, as I suggested to Nigel, I assume you will be making sure that everyone you meet knows that it was not a promise if the topic arises?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:12 AM

DMcG, you can assume I will not knowingly misrepresent anything to anyone.

Dave, you are good at infantile abuse, but woefully inadequate in justifying your statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:14 AM

I have just checked the throwaway comment I made about Norway payments, and it is perhaps too complex to justify my remark. We would need to be clear that we risk comparing the cost of access that Norway pays with what we pay for access *plus everything else*.

So please strike that remark and replace it by 'we may still have to pay substantial amounts for access.'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:20 AM

SADGIT

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:22 AM

DMcG, you can assume I will not knowingly misrepresent anything to anyone

Good, but that is a different thing. I was talking about what happened when we overhear (or similar) someone else making the false assumption that it *was* a promise by Boris. Do we simply let them carry on in error, or do we point out the mistake?
Doing that not the same as actively misrepresenting it ourselves, but it is a sort of 'passive misrepresentation'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:29 AM

You may as well try to push butter up a porcupine's arse with a hot needle, McG.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:30 AM

You may as well try to push butter up a porcupine's arse with a hot needle, McG

Everyone should have a hobby.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:34 AM

What Teresa May has achieved so far ................. or not.


May's achievements to date

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 06:10 AM

DMcG - :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 09:18 AM

I have to say I have been impressed with Dominic Grieve throughout the debates this week. He has spoken with great clarity and considered insight.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:18 AM

We will take back control of our internationally agreed fishing grounds
This is a very interesting one. It may or may not happen, but it is no simple matter. We have severely depleted our fishing fleets and the supporting facilities and it will take years to build them back up again. That could give us big problems in the meantime as we are talking investment with no short term return.
The fact that we have a depleted fishing fleet does not cause a problem. We will be 'taking back control of our fishing grounds'. That does not have to mean we will fish them ourselves, but we will have control of any issue of fishing licences for them, and for how long those licences will be valid.

We will not be expected to join the Euro
... not an issue, we are opted out.
We will not expected to become part of a European army
... not an issue. We have a veto. And losing that veto makes an EU army more likely, not less.
We also had a good rebate. That was 'negotiated' away by Tony Blair. There was nothing to say that our vetoes were going to be permanent, especially as the EU mantra is 'ever closer union'.

We will be free to trade with other nations without imposing a standardised list of tariffs intended to be protectionist of European interests
Again perhaps. One thing that people seem to overlook is that any trade agreement involves sacrificing some freedom in exchange for what as seen as a greater benefit. To take an utterly trivial example: The UK power supply runs at 50Hz (more or less) as does almost all the rest of the world. Having the freedom to run it at 100Hz is technically there, but we voluntarily relinquish it in the interests of getting access to all the world's equipment that is designed for the 50Hz.
Historically it appears that UK was one of the first countries to standardise at 50Hz, so it's not us sacrificing freedom for standardisation, but others.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:25 AM

Well done Great Britain, we standardised the 50Hz Internationally agreed power supply rating, are we just wonderful.

We standardised many other things when Great Britain was a vast empire, and not all of them good, but we are no longer an Empire. We are a small country trying to make its way in the world.

Many people think we could do that better as part of a block of nations with a common cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:31 AM

You do realise that the 50Hz thing was a mere illustrative example that people in negotiations accept restrictions in return for benefits?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:34 AM

From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:34 AM
What Teresa May has achieved so far ................. or not.
May's achievements to date

Not exactly the height of news reporting is it?
The link goes to a Guardian article which gives a link to: "promising 39 billion pounds to the EU."
Unfortunately, when you follow the link it's about "Promising 50 billion pounds (or more) to the EU"
Maybe they don't even trust their own reporting . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:54 AM

You and I both know that the final figure has yet to be decided, and even then we will not know the full extent as other sums may or may not be added to that "final" figure.

Once again you have failed to offer anything remotely positive.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:10 AM

From: Raggytash
Once again you have failed to offer anything remotely positive.

In your opinion.

I provided a list. You have not commented on the list, only briefly on others comments.
I accept that we will have different ideas of what may be considered 'positives', but please stop claiming that we don't identify any.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:16 AM

I did not need to comment on your list, other people demonstrated quite admirably how erroneous it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:18 AM

The UK power supply runs at 50Hz (more or less) as does almost all the rest of the world.

North America and parts of Asia run at 60 Hz, FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:20 AM

Did you miss the bit that said "as does almost all the rest of the world"

Note the use of the word ALMOST.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:26 AM

Yes, bobad was aware of that. As it happens my father in law was an electirical engineer initially and later an economist with the World Bank. He was very closely involved in the creation of the U.K. National grid and latterly assisting other countries world wide to introduce similar systems and other major electrical provision systems under the World Bank auspices.

So while I have no direct involvement, I have heard a great deal at length about such systems!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:28 AM

"Many people think we could do that better as part of a block of nations with a common cause."

But a majority of people voted that we would be better off away from the EU. i.e.those with common sense. This is because they realise the "common cause" is but an unsubstantiated opinion and they vehemently disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 11:32 AM

The AC hum of 50 Hz in Europe is close to
the pitch of G1 = 48.99 Hz (49 Hz). The AC hum of 60 Hz in the U.S. is a minor third higher
close to the pitch of A1/B1 = 58.27 Hz (58 Hz).
So you can find out logically, whether a sound recording was made in Europe or in the U.S amongst others if you are really interested.

I doesn't depend in the least on Brexit, thank goodness, Deo Grati
However I wonder if the Trump administration will include a mandatory change in the next trade deal?
Just a thought .

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 12:15 PM

Sorry, Iains. You say those with common sense voted to leave because they realise the common cause is an unsubstantiated opinion and yet you also say that all the predictions about what will happen are also just opinions. I think. Which is it to be, they voted to leave because of unsubstantiated opinions of in spite of unsubstantiated opinions?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 12:31 PM

No one expected any of today's or yesterday's amendments to be passed, but it is still depressing. A clause to say the government must assess the impact of no deal? Vote against: heavens above, we would rather just go on gut feel than have anyone think about it.

Assess environmental protection loss and produce a bill to be debated to make up for it if Parliament then so decides? Again, perish the thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 01:00 PM

a majority of people

? ?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 01:23 PM

? ?
Basic maths a bit of a struggle for you greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 02:11 PM

Dave the electorate cast their vote according to their beliefs. Now whether the belief is based on fact, fiction, or total fantasy is immaterial. To the individual it is based on their common sense. Sadly the remainers are easily swayed by the argument big is beautiful.(the bible according to Lord Brown BP) Whereas the thinking man prefers Schumacher's creed that small is beautiful and champions small, appropriate technologies that are believed to empower people ...
A Study of Economics As If People Mattered.
It is alo the greenest green you have ever seen. You know it makes sense to leave!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 02:28 PM

Sadly the remainers are easily swayed by the argument big is beautiful.(the bible according to Lord Brown BP) Whereas the thinking man prefers Schumacher's creed that small is beautiful and champions small, appropriate technologies that are believed to empower people

That, Iains, is a matter of opinion in itself and where we will have to agree to differ. You cannot class all people om one side or the other with such a broad statement. Each and every one of us has our reasons for voting for or against and those reasons, whether valid or not, have all been thought out. It is not a question of what the 'thinking man' believes. We all, believe it or not, think for ourselves and to say that only those who voted leave are capable of doing so does, to put it mildly, nothing but alienate people.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 03:19 PM

..." the thinking man..."

Whereas women can't think, are probably quite hysterical, need to be told by thinking men to "calm down dear," should know their place at the kitchen sink, lie back and think of England...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 03:30 PM

"vehemently disagree"

Really?

Any evidence to support the assertion that the people "vehemently disagree"

Highlighted in bold I may add!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 03:56 PM

can you subtract as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:01 PM

"Whereas women can't think, are probably quite hysterical, need to be told by thinking men to "calm down dear," should know their place at the kitchen sink, lie back and think of England..."

For a sandal wearing well educated scientist and shorts wearing ex teacher you hold some very outmoded sexist views. You should be ashamed of yourself!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:11 PM

fact, fiction, or total fantasy is immaterial.

Have you taken over for Sarah Huckabee Sanders, Inanes?

Spoken like a true Trumpista!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:12 PM

I can multiply, divide and add too Iains.

My question was to ask how you can know people "vehemently disagree".

I shall await your considered response with interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 04:24 PM

I was pleasantly surprised to read a Tory MP saying what many of us have said repeatedly on here.

That is the impact of Brexit will be felt more severely by the younger generation, that the effect on them will last for much longer than it will for us.

(Before you pipe up that I don't know that for certain, WE are all getting older, and in due course will shuffle off this mortal coil)

I think Justine Greening is to be commended for her stance.

Justine Greening

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:09 PM

There were many MPs, both leave and remain, and of several parties, who had clearly thought long and hard before they reached their view. But I am afraid during the debates the benches were fairly empty - probably less than one quarter of the people who voted for or against each amendment. That they vote on such a critical bill without bothering to listen to the debates is exactly the sort of thing that brings Parliament into disrepute.

I know it is always like that, and that they always say they have other important work that draws them away from the chamber, but whether you are a Remainer or Leaver, I hope you agree there are few things more significant than this bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:33 PM

" how you can know people "vehemently disagree".
Simples: They were passionate enough about the outcome that they got off their arse's and toddled off down to the polling station and voted.
I have no idea what delusions motivated the remainers and of course 27% of the electorate could not be bothered to crawl out of bed for the event. It is highly amusing that by some distortion of logic the remainers would like to sweep up all the no-shows and put them in their camp. I would have thought they had sufficient dross already, but their is no accounting for taste, is there?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 05:39 PM

while i have always thought that brexit won't happen because big business don't like the idea, i'm starting to change my mind. big business. the rich. neo-liberals or tories or whatever do not have a clue what they are doing anymore. or why they are doing it. or why they are pretending to - or pretending not to - do anything.
i reckon that labour are right - they may well win power not because of their own virtues but because of the spectacular ineptitude of the tories and the crazy economic situation we have arrived at.

so, if labour are to be in power we need to be able to resist the ultra capitalist pressures of the EU. we retain workers' and human rights but retain the power to write our own rules about restraining the corrupt big business privatisers.

i'm not quite becoming a brexiter but am considering it. socially and in terms of peace etc it's a complete nonsense. still, interesting times for us socialists

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM

"Whereas women can't think, are probably quite hysterical, need to be told by thinking men to "calm down dear," should know their place at the kitchen sink, lie back and think of England..."

For a sandal wearing well educated scientist and shorts wearing ex teacher you hold some very outmoded sexist views. You should be ashamed of yourself!

You're the sexist. The bloke who lionised "the thinking man." Jesus Christ, in this day and age, "the thinking MAN." I'm the bloke calling you out. Calm down, dear!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 08:18 PM

Well, Pete, I'm not easily taken in by films, but I went to see Darkest Hour last night. It fired me up enough to spend a couple of hours at home afterwards, checking up on the veracity or otherwise of the yarn. Right, some liberties were definitely taken, but... I'm no Churchill fan. My great Uncle Jimmy died uselessly, aged nineteen, at Gallipoli in 1915. His name is on a plaque, spelled wrong, in Salford Cathedral. He's somewhere on the Helles Memorial, but I'm damned if I can track that down. He has no grave. How he might have changed my life had he been around when I was a nipper. To some extent, Winston might have been responsible for his death, who knows. But Churchill was depicted as standing almost alone, politically, against Nazi tyranny, when his compatriots might have sold out the whole of occupied Europe in order to save the Empire. Not bad, I thought, for an avowed Empire man... The EEC was founded in order to promote free trade among the countries that had been perennially and damagingly at war and to ensure that war in Europe never happened again. That was achieved, eventually, not just by free trade but, eventually, by insisting that member states were democratic and abided always by the rule of law. Democracies do not go to war with each other, and so it's proved. Dunno how old you are Pete, but I was born in 1951 and have never been called up to fight in a bloody war and there's no prospect that my one-and-only beloved son will be either. That'll do me. The EU has a bloated bureaucracy and all that, as well as some bloody silly conventions apropos of agriculture and fisheries. But we can best fight these absurdities by staying in and making the argument (always remembering that the UK agrees with 95% of EU laws anyway and actively disagrees with just 2% of them), and remembering that we have considerable influence as one of the largest members. When you come to think of it, if you really want to see a democratic deficit you only have to look at the way the referendum campaign was run and how the Tories have tried to sidestep democracy ever since. It makes the EU look like a bunch of fluffy bunnies. Stay and fight!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 03:25 AM

From: Raggytash
I was pleasantly surprised to read a Tory MP saying what many of us have said repeatedly on here.

That is the impact of Brexit will be felt more severely by the younger generation, that the effect on them will last for much longer than it will for us.

I don't believe she was agreeing with you. She doesn't appear to have used the word "impact" which would have negative implications, just to have made the obvious comment that Brexit will have a longer lasting effect on the younger generation than on the older.

For those who haven't accessed the link, the BBC quote her as saying:
"The bottom line is that looking ahead, if Brexit doesn't work for young people in our country in the end it will not be sustainable.

When they take their place here they will seek to improve or undo what we've done and make it work for them.

So we do absolutely have a duty in this House to look ahead and ensure that whatever we get is sustainable and works for them"


The emphases are mine.